Log for #openttd on 17th March 2008:
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00:03:13  *** Journy [] has joined #openttd
00:03:16  <Journy> hey guys
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00:05:47  <Journy> I have a question,  I downloaded the serbian train set, which was supposed to give me trains in the 1870's or so, but when i load the GRF for the set, i dont get the train set, i get the standard trains...
00:07:03  <Ammlller> Journy: maybe you took the narrow gauge set
00:07:18  <Ammlller> take a look on the maglev depot
00:07:20  <Journy> im trying both sets actually, and neither are giving me anything.
00:07:29  <Journy> standard gauge and narrow.
00:08:10  <Journy> is there a certain trick to get the set to load?
00:08:12  <Ammlller> do you use other grfs then that?
00:08:33  <Journy> yes, a aviator aircraft set
00:08:36  <Ammlller> and which climate do you play?
00:08:49  <Journy> temperate... hmmmm i bet thats wrong isnt it.
00:08:59  <Ammlller> no temperate is fine
00:09:32  <Journy> hmm
00:10:59  <Journy> do i have to load both the narrow gauge rail set along with the "narrow gauge rails" grf?
00:11:29  <Ammlller> which version of ottd do you play?
00:12:13  <Gonozal_VIII> you need to load the narrow gauge rail grf with parameter 4
00:12:29  <Ammlller> well, you need narrow gauge rails, else you have ugly maglev tracks
00:12:54  <Gonozal_VIII> no, the vehicle grf doesn't load at all then
00:13:11  <Gonozal_VIII> but you can see the reason in the newgrf window...
00:13:20  <Journy> hmm
00:13:32  <Ammlller> Gonozal_VIII: that depense on version
00:14:02  <Gonozal_VIII> everybody should be using a new version!!!!11111
00:14:13  <Ammlller> wow, nice error msg now
00:14:18  <Journy> hmmm
00:14:34  <Journy> would this be caused because i am using the ChrisIN patches..
00:14:43  <Ammlller> autsch
00:15:00  <Ammlller> show us a screen from your NewGRF setting window
00:15:29  <Gonozal_VIII> autsch is not very english :P
00:15:43  <Ammlller> well, it shouldn't tell anything
00:16:14  <Ammlller> but Journy, why do you like to use ChrisIN?
00:16:39  <Gonozal_VIII> chrisin has good stuff...
00:17:02  <Ammlller> well, that isn't a reason to use it
00:17:26  <Ammlller> there are reasons to use Gonozal_VIII patchpacks :-P
00:17:46  <Journy> ummm because i cant figure out how to get gonozal's thing set up.
00:18:03  <Gonozal_VIII> ^^
00:18:25  <Ammlller> but which feature are you missing?
00:18:48  <Ammlller> (just wondering)
00:19:17  <Journy> i dont know?
00:19:21  <Journy> im new to this game
00:19:56  <Ammlller> I would suggest to begin with official releases
00:20:24  <Ammlller> those INs are for experienced players and mostly very alpha
00:21:34  <Gonozal_VIII> not release... betas or nightlies are best to start with imho
00:21:42  <Gonozal_VIII> release is sooooo old
00:21:49  <Journy>
00:21:55  <Ammlller> hmm, beta IS a release
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00:22:28  <Ammlller> Journy: you didn't load stanard set
00:22:40  <Journy> im trying everything.
00:22:41  <Ammlller> and you need to load rails BEFORE train set
00:22:50  <Journy> whats the difference?
00:22:52  <Gonozal_VIII> narrow should work alone too but yes, rails first
00:22:52  <Ammlller> you can both load at once
00:22:55  <Journy> you have to order stuff?
00:23:03  <Gonozal_VIII> yes you have to order stuff
00:23:08  <Journy> oh.
00:23:13  <Ammlller> of course, thats the trick :-)
00:23:21  <Journy> why does that matter?
00:23:23  <Gonozal_VIII> everything that is used by something else has to be loaded before that
00:23:29  <Journy> hmm
00:23:32  <Gonozal_VIII> not really... but that's a good rule^^
00:23:59  <Journy> still doesnt work
00:24:09  <Ammlller> how do you know?
00:24:21  <Ammlller> show us a screen from ingame
00:24:23  <Journy> loaded the narrow gauge rails, then serbian narrow gauge rail set, loaded up a game and nothing.
00:24:26  <Gonozal_VIII> the newgrf settings window ingame shows if it's loaded
00:24:36  <Journy> umm
00:24:43  <Journy> its only showing me the standard train sets?
00:24:52  <Journy> oh wait
00:25:05  <Journy> i changed the selection to maglev
00:25:17  <Journy> now i have it i believe
00:25:35  <Journy> yup
00:26:15  <Journy> well that was a learning experience.
00:26:31  <Journy> Now with Gonozal's patch pack thing, i cant figure out how to compile the damn thing
00:26:41  <Journy> doesnt work for me.
00:26:53  <Ammlller> you are lucky, the owner is here... :P
00:26:54  <Gonozal_VIII> patch it, then make it :-)
00:27:25  * Journy is confuzzled
00:27:39  <Gonozal_VIII> but i'm quite clueless about compilers...
00:27:53  <Journy> i was trying to compile it
00:27:59  <Journy> with the uh..
00:28:14  <Journy> BuildOTTD
00:28:19  <Journy> which is seemingly simple
00:28:30  <Gonozal_VIII> only works on xp
00:28:39  <Journy> indeed, thats apparently true
00:28:45  <Eddi|zuHause> Journy: you must choose the exact same revision as the patch says
00:28:53  <Journy> im using vista.
00:29:26  <Eddi|zuHause> then upgrade to xp ;)
00:29:30  <Ammlller> Journy: there are precompiled winbis available
00:29:40  <Journy> where do i find them?
00:29:45  <Ammlller> same thread
00:29:45  <Journy> i kept looking but couldnt
00:29:50  <Journy> lies!
00:30:23  <Gonozal_VIII> maybe that gonozal guy put a link to a binary in the first post
00:30:24  <Ammlller> no, just read the first post
00:31:26  <Journy> oh ... wow.
00:31:38  <Journy> was that there about a week ago?
00:31:48  <Eddi|zuHause> yes.
00:32:00  <Journy> well ill be first to say im blind.
00:32:00  <Gonozal_VIII> has been there all the time
00:32:46  <Eddi|zuHause> honestly, i have never acutally looked at the post, but i was fairly confident ;)
00:33:07  <Ammlller> Eddi|zuHause: :-)
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00:33:52  <Journy> ok thats done.
00:38:33  <Journy> first time i loaded up the gonozal compile, it said error with IN DIF?
00:38:37  <Journy> or problem with in dif
00:38:50  <Journy> then i shut it down restarted it and it didnt do it again..
00:39:08  <Gonozal_VIII> not problem with "in dif"^^
00:39:23  <Gonozal_VIII> problem in "dif_blah"
00:39:43  <Gonozal_VIII> difficulty array size changed from 18 to 20
00:39:59  <Journy> what does that mean?
00:40:21  <Gonozal_VIII> the new loan stuff
00:40:39  <Eddi|zuHause> means it read diff_custom from the config file, expected 20 items, found only 18, made error message
00:40:47  <Journy> gotcha
00:41:18  <Journy> question , how do i send money to other companies, in the economy tab of the patches window?
00:41:28  <Journy> i always select yes on that but how do i do it?
00:42:00  <Eddi|zuHause> err... through the client list, i think
00:42:11  <Ammlller> Gonozal_VIII: question to that loan thing
00:42:14  <Eddi|zuHause> can't give money to AI players, i believe
00:42:21  <Ammlller> why does that change diff_settings
00:42:47  <Journy> argh
00:42:55  <Gonozal_VIII> various reasons :-)
00:43:27  <Ammlller> that is for max loan
00:43:49  <Ammlller> and the 2.?
00:44:02  <Gonozal_VIII> dunno
00:47:38  <Journy> wow lots of power on these 1873 serbian trains
00:47:44  <Journy> i dont know what ill do with all 150hp
00:49:08  <Gonozal_VIII> 16 km/h :-)
00:49:18  <Gonozal_VIII> but they can make profit
00:49:35  <Journy> oh my..
00:49:46  <Journy> they will make profit just incredibly slowly
00:50:08  <Gonozal_VIII> that's because they are slow ;-)
00:50:17  <Journy> yea
00:50:25  <Journy> how do i change the autosave rate?
00:50:25  <Gonozal_VIII> your tracks will be very crowded
00:50:39  <Eddi|zuHause> in the game settings
00:50:41  <Gonozal_VIII> same as always
00:51:27  <Journy> yea in the other build i had it didnt save daily though so i never touched it.
00:51:53  <Gonozal_VIII> i should probably change the default^^
00:53:05  <Journy> daily was lagging my computer
00:53:17  <Journy> i was wondering why the game was freezing up sorta
00:56:45  <Journy> sweet, i sorta like extremely slow train action
00:58:07  <Gonozal_VIII> but you need like 50 trains for a single mine^^
00:59:15  <Journy> yea
01:05:04  <Journy> wow im so rich with such slow moving trains
01:05:13  <Journy> the empire begins.
01:15:30  <Journy> does a caboose serve a purpose?
01:15:33  <Journy> or just for looks
01:16:47  <Gonozal_VIII> it does serve a purpose in my version because i replaced it with the transrapid...
01:16:59  <Gonozal_VIII> but that was before enginepool
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01:58:44  * TheMasterSwordsman is assuming that OpenTTD has been built for Linux.
02:01:31  <Eddi|zuHause2> whatever you mean by that...
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05:55:44  *** Netsplit <-> quits: @peter1138, Patrick`, ben_goodger, Nuhru, nzvip, helb, Celestar, wolfy, anhedral, dfox,  (+2 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them)
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07:31:15  <Celestar_> morning
07:31:17  *** Celestar_ is now known as Celestar
07:31:43  <peter1139> Hi
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08:02:22  <Poopsmith> g'day
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08:20:52  <Draakon> hi
08:21:17  <Poopsmith> evening Draakon
08:21:53  <Pinchiukas> morning Draakon
08:22:11  <Draakon> its morning here instead of evening
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08:22:58  <ln> Draakon: so you only like realistic tv series?
08:23:12  <Draakon> ?
08:23:57  <Draakon> if you are talking about lost, then i have a problem with that only
08:24:30  <ln> only lost should be realistic, others do not matter. ok.
08:24:52  <Draakon> no
08:24:58  <Draakon> i dint say that
08:25:01  <Draakon> *sigh*
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08:31:15  <Celestar> hey Maedhros
08:34:40  <Draakon> @logs
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08:36:38  <Maedhros> hey Celestar
08:38:14  <Celestar> how'S life?
08:39:05  <Maedhros> it's all good - term's just finished, so i'm enjoying not doing any work for a little while :)
08:39:08  <Maedhros> how about you?
08:41:01  <Celestar> not bad
08:41:08  <Celestar> returning to ottd (=
08:41:34  <Maedhros> good good :-D
08:41:48  <Celestar> trying to understand newgrf_ports :P
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08:50:22  <peter1138> Brave man :)
08:50:51  <Celestar> haha
08:51:03  <Celestar> ok lets move one level lower: I'm trying to understand newgrf :P
08:51:12  <peter1138> Oh, well, that's easy...
08:52:24  <Celestar> where to start? ;)
08:52:29  <Celestar> the specs?
08:55:01  <ln> Celestar: hey, what do you think about the idea of international flights for OTTD now? a few years ago you said it's an "interesting idea".
08:56:16  <Celestar> you mean flights to the destination outside of the map?
08:57:23  <Celestar> .oO(omg, a 0 billion intenational space station and they need a crowbar because a bolt is stuck :S)
08:58:02  <peter1138> Probably the Americans put an imperial bolt in...
08:58:19  <peter1138> Hmm, 9MB/s for 5 hours...
08:58:21  <Celestar> nah, device is apparently colder than expected ...
08:58:26  <ln> Celestar: yeah.
08:58:41  <Celestar> ln: let's finish newgrf_ports first, shall we? ;)
08:58:46  <ln> fine. :)
08:58:51  <peter1138> Oh, only 160GB...
08:58:59  <peter1138> Is there a spec for newgrf_ports yet?
08:59:20  <ln> Celestar: also I'd like to see different countries on the map, but that would probably be more complicated.
08:59:21  <Celestar> peter1138: I've written RichK an e-mail regarding this question; as far as I know, it's been fairly complete.
09:00:42  <peter1138> Mind you, it's in a branch, isn't it?
09:00:48  <Celestar> yeah
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09:04:56  <peter1138> /* $Id: newgrf_fsmports.cpp 12351 2008-03-10 15:26:39Z richk $ */
09:05:07  <peter1138> /** @file newgrf_station.cpp Functions for dealing with station classes and custom stations. */
09:05:11  <peter1138> Inconsistent ;)
09:05:28  <Celestar> inconsistent with what? :P
09:05:39  <peter1138> He's copied stuff but not updated comments :)
09:06:51  <peter1138> Hmm, not sure it needs a whole new station spec list :o
09:06:55  <peter1138> (And resolver)
09:07:59  <Celestar> dunno either.
09:08:04  <Celestar> gotta read through all this
09:12:47  <peter1138> Gah, fucking bosses...
09:12:56  <peter1138> "Blah de blah was slow on Sunday, any idea why?"
09:13:08  <peter1138> Well no... if you'd told me on Sunday I'd've been able to look...
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09:24:10  <Maedhros> muhaha, my hotkeys patch works
09:24:18  <Maedhros> it's still quite unfinished, though
09:24:28  <Maedhros> what do you think?
09:28:43  <peter1138> Hmm
09:28:51  <peter1138> Eeenteresting...
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11:29:16  <TheJosh> I have a dilema. There is no clear consesnous on how to display the % of shares owned by the company itslelf. A lot of people are saying to go with manager name, the original patch is company name, but there are other suggestions as well. any ideas?
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11:30:02  <josch> hello!
11:30:06  <peter1138> Well you're the author, you get to decide ;)
11:30:12  <josch> why can one build while the game is paused?
11:30:19  <josch> s/can/cant/
11:30:28  <peter1138> Because the AI can't build while paused.
11:30:31  <Noldo> it's a cheat
11:30:34  <peter1138> But you can enable it in the cheat menu.
11:30:41  <josch> lol?
11:31:00  <josch> okay the ai cannot build while paused but it is MUCH faster than I am
11:31:12  <TheJosh> and MUCH crapper
11:31:13  <SpComb> competing against the AI is like competing against ...
11:31:17  <josch> so it's only fair for the human to be able to build while paused?
11:31:21  <TheJosh> a small child
11:31:26  <Noldo> SpComb: a goldfish?
11:31:32  <TheJosh> a very small child. say 2 weeks
11:31:35  <SpComb> the goldfish is a good choice
11:31:36  <josch> haha
11:31:47  <TheJosh> a baby goldfish
11:31:52  <SpComb> in any case, it's not very much fun
11:32:03  <TheJosh> a retarted baby goldfish
11:32:17  <TheJosh> thus, multiplayer. or #openttdcoop
11:32:25  <Sacro> zomg tis TheJosh
11:32:38  <TheJosh> zomg?
11:32:42  <Sacro> indeed
11:32:52  <TheJosh> sounds like an alien race or somehting
11:33:37  <josch> problem is, that the ai seems braindead and builds everywhere where it can build - I have no idea where it takes the money from
11:33:41  <Noldo> TheJosh: is the "rest" of to company going to be own by the company itself or the manager in your shares model later?
11:33:52  <Gonozal_VIII> oh noes, the zomg are invading earth!
11:34:04  <Noldo> josch: it can terraform for free
11:34:07  <TheJosh> Gonozal_VIII: HA HA HA
11:34:38  <josch> lol terraform for free??? this explains EVERYTHING
11:35:01  <Noldo> on a 64*64 map it looks like the ground is alive
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11:36:40  <TheJosh> REAL WORLD: If you form a company, your the owner, yeah? then you can float shares to make capital to expand. Somewhere around then, you hire a manger. You may sell half of your company as shares to make several million dollars or whatever, but you still end up owning the 51% (typically) of the company. In the real world, the manager owns nothing
11:36:43  <Gonozal_VIII> the evil underground zomg!
11:37:14  <TheJosh> thus, the company owning itself made some kind of sence, but its probably clearer to say that the manager owns the remaing 50% because its simpler to understand, even if it is wrong
11:37:19  <Gonozal_VIII> you're owner, not manager
11:37:20  <peter1138> I think it's assumed that the manager is the owner.
11:37:50  <TheJosh> well Ill make it the manager name then
11:38:35  <peter1138> But it's confusing to have a list of companies and then a manager...
11:38:36  <TheJosh> should it say "(manager)" after their name in the list of owners? or put it into another colour?
11:38:52  <Noldo> There are so many real worlds
11:38:59  <TheJosh> or "(founder)"
11:39:25  <Gonozal_VIII> the world of the zomg!
11:39:36  <TheJosh> argh! the zomg are coming!!!
11:39:46  <Tefad> real world.. scale.. none of this applies to ttd.
11:39:58  <TheJosh> Gonozal_VIII: do you mind if i use zomg as a character in a game I am making?
11:39:59  <peter1138> :D
11:40:25  <Gonozal_VIII> why would i mind? it was your idea
11:40:34  <TheJosh> you wrote it first
11:40:38  <Tefad> no.
11:40:43  <Tefad> zomg is ancient
11:40:51  <Tefad> like.. before internets
11:40:54  <Noldo> public domain?
11:41:02  <Gonozal_VIII> there is no befoe internets
11:41:24  <Celestar> back
11:41:27  <Gonozal_VIII> that's all a myth, spread by the people in bielefeld
11:42:36  <Gonozal_VIII>
11:42:41  <Gonozal_VIII> fyi ;-)
11:43:03  <TheJosh> whats better to have after the manager name, '(manager)', or '(founder)'???
11:43:14  <Sacro> inventor?
11:43:23  <Tefad> i'd prefer doofus in charge.
11:43:38  <Gonozal_VIII> (DIC)
11:43:47  <Sacro> oooh
11:43:50  <TheJosh> you could make your own language for it, and make it that
11:43:50  <Sacro> or PHB
11:44:03  <TheJosh> oh the fun you could have with 'silly english'...
11:44:30  <Sacro> senglish?
11:44:31  <Tefad> founder sounds fine
11:44:39  <Sacro> sengillyish!
11:44:43  <Tefad> or primary/secondary
11:44:48  <Tefad> whatever
11:44:48  <Sacro> inaugrurator!
11:45:06  <TheJosh> i like inaugrurator
11:45:17  <Gonozal_VIII> silly english^tm
11:45:25  <TheJosh> vote: inaugrurator, founder, manager
11:45:34  <Sacro> el capitain
11:45:53  <Gonozal_VIII> avd
11:46:00  <TheJosh> i give up
11:46:07  <peter1138> TheJosh: (manager)
11:46:32  <peter1138> Reason being you can 'change' the manager, and then they're not the founder...
11:46:45  <TheJosh> good point
11:46:55  <TheJosh> and there called the manager everywhere else
11:46:59  <peter1138> Yes.
11:47:04  <peter1138> Also, my elbows hurt...
11:47:37  <TheJosh> why is that? soo much silly-english?
11:47:49  <peter1138> Probably due to leaning on the desk, heh...
11:47:56  <Tefad> Gonozal_VIII: this reminds me of "prove that the moon exists" nonsense
11:48:30  <keyweed_> i've actually been to bielefeld
11:48:35  <Sacro> TheJosh: they'r
11:48:36  <TheJosh> its so annoying that you have to recompile whenever you change your strings
11:48:37  *** keyweed_ is now known as keyweed
11:48:39  <Sacro> *they're
11:54:55  <TheJosh>
11:57:08  <Tefad> Gonozal_VIII:
11:57:51  <TheJosh> anyway im off to be now
11:57:53  <TheJosh> nite to all
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12:06:55  <Gonozal_VIII> hehe a mock of those mars pictures
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12:22:31  <Celestar> Brianetta: :)
12:23:03  <Brianetta> (:
12:23:15  <LordAzamath> (::)::(::)
12:24:05  <keyweed> $@%
12:24:15  <Gekz> np: Die toten Hosen - Hier kommt Alex
12:25:05  <keyweed> ah. nice. since he's coming, he can finish writing this document for me
12:25:18  <Gonozal_VIII> who's alex?
12:26:24  <Gekz> lol
12:26:27  <Gekz> you are dicks.
12:26:29  <keyweed> i don't know, but he'd better start typing
12:26:29  <Gekz> the end.
12:26:37  <keyweed> and you're crazy!
12:26:48  <keyweed> actually. multiple misspelled crazies!
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13:05:00  <josch> something I never found out:
13:05:07  <josch> how to get back to the main menu??
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13:05:47  <Gonozal_VIII> abandon game
13:05:48  <peter1138> You, er, end the game..
13:06:02  *** titanbeos [] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
13:06:25  <josch> ah i just found it
13:06:32  <josch> it's in the save menu
13:06:46  <Celestar> it'S the "system" menu, not the "save" menu :P
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13:34:58  <Sacro> argh a Celestar :o
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13:51:21  <Eddi|zuHause2> in the wrong colour!
13:56:47  <Eddi|zuHause2> # Lass uns diskutieren, denn in unserem schönen Land
13:56:47  <Eddi|zuHause2> # Sind zumindest theoretisch alle furchtbar tolerant
13:56:47  <Eddi|zuHause2> # Worte wollen nichts bewegen, Worte tun niemandem weh
13:56:47  <Eddi|zuHause2> # Darum lass uns drÃŒber reden, Diskussionen sind ok
13:57:16  <Eddi|zuHause2> # NEIN! - geh mal wieder auf die Straße, geh mal wieder demonstrieren
13:57:16  <Eddi|zuHause2> # Denn wer nicht mehr versucht zu kÀmpfen, kann nur verlieren!
13:57:16  <Eddi|zuHause2> # Die dich verarschen, die hast du selbst gewÀhlt
13:57:16  <Eddi|zuHause2> # Darum lass sie deine Stimme hören, weil jede Stimme zÀhlt
13:57:19  <Rubidium> So desu ne.
13:58:41  <Gonozal_VIII> hai
13:58:49  <peter1138> No.
14:01:08  <keyweed> "the only way to win, is not to play at all"
14:01:48  <peter1138> You've lost the game?
14:02:39  <keyweed> no. i never loose, at anything.
14:02:39  <Gonozal_VIII> did you look under your bed?
14:02:52  <peter1138> You're tight then?
14:03:10  <keyweed> lol. i'm very tight. but i doubt you mean what i understand
14:03:32  * Rubidium ponders a Blendtec vs keyweed contest.
14:04:22  <keyweed> i define 'winning' in this context as the ability to be blended.
14:04:42  <Rubidium> :O
14:05:19  <Gonozal_VIII> doesn't that hurt?
14:06:31  <keyweed> only for a short time
14:06:42  <Rubidium> best go head first
14:08:34  <keyweed> indeed
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14:09:21  <Gonozal_VIII> you never know until you try
14:10:18  *** Ammller is now known as temp
14:10:33  *** temp is now known as Ammler
14:12:16  * keyweed wanders off in search of a keyweed-sized-blender
14:13:20  <Gonozal_VIII> or take a usual one and start with the parts that fit in
14:13:40  <keyweed> that's cheating
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14:32:53  <RichK67> hi
14:43:39  <Digitalfox> Oh a RichK67, Hi..
14:43:51  <Digitalfox> How's new ports going ? :)
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14:52:57  <RichK67> ive synced newGRF_ports to a fairly recent level, and solved the bugs that got introduced
14:52:57  <RichK67> actual progress on my todo list though is negligeable
14:52:57  <Gonozal_VIII> finish it faster, then there is less to sync :P
14:53:17  <Gonozal_VIII> hehe
14:53:32  <RichK67> pretty much waiting for v0.6.0 - there are some new goodies coming immediately post 0.6.0, that i need to make use of, so its a bit on hold until then
14:53:35  <RichK67> :P
15:05:38  <frosch123> Is there a difference between 'void foo(const Object &bar)' and 'void foo(const Object bar)'?
15:06:42  *** GoneWacko [] has quit [Quit: You just lost the game]
15:08:44  <peter1138> Yes
15:09:01  <peter1138> Former passes a reference, latter passes a struct.
15:09:27  <frosch123> Does it really create a new struct though it is 'const'
15:09:37  <peter1138> It should do.
15:10:11  <peter1138> Maybe it can be optimised not to, but I don't know.
15:11:54  <Sacro> RichK67! :D
15:13:55  <RichK67> hi Sacro
15:15:06  <RichK67> just popping in for a quick look round - slow work day
15:17:03  <Sacro> ahh tis nice to see you
15:17:17  <Sacro> RichK67: get yourself onto peter's server, tis like the old days
15:17:21  <Sacro> UKRS, PBS
15:17:22  <Sacro> all good fun
15:20:55  <larsemil> hey what is the best way to get a town to grow? now i build some bus stations and build roads for them and then i deliver goods
15:21:31  <Eddi|zuHause2> cities grow faster than towns
15:21:44  <RichK67> Sacro: new PBS i assume
15:21:50  <larsemil> well i meant cities. thought it was the same
15:23:14  <Sacro> RichK67: indeed it is
15:23:22  <Eddi|zuHause2> new PBS are completely awesome
15:23:36  <Eddi|zuHause2> larsemil: cities are bigger than towns
15:23:53  <larsemil> so is there something else to do to get them to grow?
15:24:11  <Eddi|zuHause2> just transport stuff
15:24:24  <Eddi|zuHause2> the more stations, the better (up to 5)
15:24:33  <Eddi|zuHause2> you can also fund office buildings
15:25:16  <RichK67> Sacro: so is the build he uses downloadable somewhere?
15:25:35  <Sacro> RichK67: errr... not sure
15:26:03  <Eddi|zuHause2> which build does he use anyway?
15:26:16  <peter1138> Who?
15:26:44  <RichK67> peter1138: you on your server
15:26:57  <Eddi|zuHause2> HE!
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15:27:08  <peter1138> Oh, r12187 (iirc) plus just the patch.
15:27:25  <RichK67> so connect name will be r12187M
15:27:31  <peter1138> Yes
15:27:36  <RichK67> ok
15:27:37  <peter1138> looking for a binary in the thread
15:29:33  <peter1138> hmm don't see one
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15:57:52  <Celestar> RichK67: ;)
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15:58:40  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truebrain * r12376 /branches/noai/ (4 files in 3 dirs):
15:58:40  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Remove: from this day on, C++ is removed as supported language to write your NoAI in. The only language to use is Squirrel.
15:58:40  <CIA-1> OpenTTD:  This commit is as preparation of the complete removal of this support.
15:58:40  <CIA-1> OpenTTD:  For reasons why, please check
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15:59:24  <peter1138> \o/
15:59:43  <Celestar> ?
15:59:48  <peter1138> Better AI :D
16:01:24  *** LordAzamath [~LAlord]] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
16:01:57  <Celestar> :D
16:02:04  *** stillunknown [] has joined #openttd
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16:04:40  <Celestar> why do I have to tell our system administrator how to generate/use ssh keys ;(
16:06:23  <peter1138> What??
16:06:43  <Celestar> they have nfi :S
16:06:56  <RichK67> hi cel
16:06:56  <keyweed> lack of either proper education or documentation
16:07:09  <RichK67> [tab] ... oops ... Celestar
16:09:01  <Celestar> RichK67: how's life?
16:09:56  *** Zavior [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:11:26  <RichK67> variable - generally been busy achieving little
16:11:37  <Celestar> hehe
16:11:41  <Celestar> sounds very much like me
16:11:45  <Celestar> did you get my mail?
16:11:50  <RichK67> and i replied
16:12:04  <Celestar> o_O
16:12:19  <Celestar> when?
16:12:40  <RichK67> 10:39am (GMT)
16:12:59  <Celestar> nothing arrived (yet). where do you send it to?
16:13:16  <Celestar> s/do/did
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16:18:03  <RichK67>
16:18:51  <peter1138> .com
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16:33:35  <Celestar> :P
16:34:14  <Celestar> peter1138: could we discuss the "action 0 stations" and "action 0 fsmstations" thingy tomorrow a bit?
16:34:25  <peter1138> Er, okay?
16:34:43  <Celestar> good :) because I gotta hit the road
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16:54:31  <fjb> Hello
16:54:48  <fjb> Moin frosch123
16:54:52  <peter1138> Gah, cacti sucks for high density equipment.
16:55:28  <frosch123> quak fjb
16:55:32  <Gonozal_VIII> then try other plants
16:55:59  <fjb> :-)
16:56:17  <Gonozal_VIII> and quak indeed
16:56:23  <fjb> Mein kleiner grÃŒner Kaktus... :-)
16:56:30  <Gonozal_VIII> steht draussen am balkon
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17:05:09  <peter1138> 500W NorthQ Pacific II Fanless PSU, ATX 2.2 +80efficiency
17:05:20  <peter1138> Fanless: No
17:05:22  <peter1138> :o
17:05:29  <peter1138> A non-fanless fanless psu!
17:06:01  <Gonozal_VIII> maybe it has a fan but it's only for decoration :-)
17:06:11  <Gonozal_VIII> a nostalgic feature
17:07:19  * fjb is not a fan of fanless PSUs.
17:07:20  *** Nitro [] has joined #openttd
17:07:42  <Gonozal_VIII> it wouldn't be fanless if it had fans
17:10:13  *** anhedral is now known as dih
17:10:47  <peter1138> fjb, why?
17:10:54  <dih> :-)
17:12:13  *** nycerine [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:15:40  <fjb> 500W PSUs need some kind of airflow. If the PSU doesn't have a fan, you need to provide an alternate airflow anyway.
17:16:30  <Gonozal_VIII> i guess with the right case, there could be enough thermic airflow
17:16:56  <fjb> Thermic airflow is not enough.
17:17:31  <Gonozal_VIII> if the case has large cooling ribs and heatpies and stuff..
17:18:05  <fjb> The heatpipes have to reach inside the PSU then.
17:19:16  <peter1138> Hmm, £20 550W PSU... maybe not...
17:19:36  * fjb would not trust that kind of PSU.
17:20:44  *** dih is now known as anhedral
17:21:00  <Ammler> holdri, holdri, holdrio
17:21:00  <peter1138> Quite.
17:21:29  <fjb> Why do you need 500W? And if you need them, how is your cooling concept of the other parts of the system?
17:21:41  <fjb> Moin Ammler
17:22:49  <Ammler> Hi fjb, do you have time to join us on the coop Memberzone Server, we have some issues with ECS and not sure, if they are because of bug or just wrong usage...
17:23:21  <fjb> Ammler: I can have a look.
17:23:22  <peter1138> fjb: i don't, it was just listed as 500W...
17:24:00  <peter1138> er, was looking in the fanless section
17:24:21  * peter1138 assumes 400W is good enough for a normal system...
17:24:26  <peter1138> (is it?)
17:24:45  <fjb> About 350W is still enough for most systems.
17:24:45  <Gonozal_VIII> "normal"
17:25:06  <Gonozal_VIII> depends on what normal is in your opinion
17:25:16  <peter1138> In that case technically I don't need to replace mine, but it is an old noisy one
17:25:20  <peter1138> (no fan speed controller)
17:25:29  <fjb> And if you really need more power you will need a lot of airflow in the system anyway.
17:25:33  <peter1138> Gonozal_VIII: 1 psu, 1 hdd, 1 gfx card...
17:26:03  <Gonozal_VIII> or just place everything inside an aquarium filled with oil :-)
17:26:35  <fjb> peter1138: about 350W is enough for that setup.
17:26:55  <fjb> Ammler: Which version of OpenTTD do I need?
17:27:08  *** Osai is now known as Osai^Kendo
17:28:33  <peter1138> And presumably larger fan == quieter operation?
17:28:44  <peter1138> or ...
17:28:47  <peter1138> larger fan == larger fan...
17:29:07  <fjb> Larger fan is quieter most of the time.
17:29:19  <Ammler> fjb: r12350
17:29:22  <fjb> It moves more air per time unit.
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17:29:30  <Ammler> server:
17:29:33  <Gonozal_VIII> less rpm is less noise
17:29:41  <Ammler> and company pw is your nick :-)
17:30:23  <fjb> Ok
17:30:52  <Ammler> I guess, you have the grfs
17:30:53  *** frosch123 [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:30:59  <Ammler> else you might need our pack
17:31:46  <Ammler> the biggest problem we have that some cargo don't make profit like sand
17:31:48  <fjb> I will see. I'm getting the source right now, then I need some minutes to compile it.
17:32:06  <Ammler> well, just highlight if you are ready
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17:36:38  <fjb> peter1138: I would buy an Enermax EPR385AWT.
17:37:30  *** skidd13 [] has left #openttd [Ping timeout: Hmm ping sucks :D]
17:38:32  <peter1138> Damn, up to £330 for my upgrade then :(
17:38:54  <fjb> What kind of PSU are you using now?
17:39:26  <peter1138> And my cheap 7900GTO is no longer available.
17:39:35  <peter1138> A noisy 300W one
17:39:43  <Gonozal_VIII> you can dedustify it, then it's less noisy
17:39:45  <peter1138> with 20pin ATX
17:39:49  <fjb> Or buy a cheap one which is not that efficient and turn of the power a bit more often.
17:40:08  <peter1138> I turn the power off when not in use, heh
17:40:41  * peter1138 wonders if the ATI drivers for linux are any good yet, since the specs came out
17:41:01  * fjb didn't try the ATI drivers yet.
17:41:33  <fjb> The questions is how many hours a day you are using that PC.
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17:42:01  <fjb> And look for a hardware powerswitch at the backside of the PSU.
17:42:22  <Gonozal_VIII> why?
17:42:30  <peter1138> The EPR385AWT is fairly cheap anyway
17:42:35  <peter1138> So I may just go with that.
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17:43:14  * peter1138 supposes that 8 years is a fairly long time between upgrades.
17:44:42  <fjb> It is a long time. But that is good, protecting the nature.
17:45:17  <fjb> And there not many cheaper PSUs that I would use.
17:45:29  <fjb> Ammler: I need you GRF pack.
17:45:55  <Ammler> fjb:
17:46:37  <fjb> Ammler: Thank you. I never find that link in the wiki. :-)
17:47:05  <fjb> Gonozal_VIII: OK, you could use an external power switch instead.
17:47:09  <Ammler> it would also work with NewGRF
17:47:51  <peter1138> fjb: cheap vs expensive doesn't really mean much for quality
17:48:33  <fjb> peter1138: You are usually right. But there is a minimum price for good things. Everythnig cheaper has to be kind of crap.
17:48:39  <stillunknown> Too cheap is crap.
17:49:54  <stillunknown> A OEM 350W psu for 30'ish euros is reasonable.
17:49:58  <Gonozal_VIII> there's also expensive crap
17:50:03  <stillunknown> True.
17:50:12  <peter1138> Damn, so my 10 energy saving lights for 10p was bad ;(
17:50:23  <peter1138> Ok, however
17:50:31  <peter1138> I'll also need a new graphics card, see.
17:50:33  <mrfrenzy> most cheap energy saving lights really suck
17:50:40  <peter1138> As modern stuff does not have AGP, and my old one is half-dying anyway.
17:51:02  <fjb> AGP is dead...
17:51:06  <mrfrenzy> either they have crappy light colour, make sound, take a long time to start, use too much energy, or burn out early
17:51:06  <peter1138> Quite.
17:51:17  <peter1138> mrfrenzy: but they were 1p each! ;)
17:51:36  <peter1138> Hmm, 8600GT...
17:51:43  <mrfrenzy> wtf, how is that possible? ;)
17:52:00  <fjb> Ammler: I can join now.
17:52:13  <peter1138> mrfrenzy: dunno, originally they were around £3, then they were 1p...
17:52:13  <Ammler> well, I am waiting
17:52:25  <peter1138> Damn IE7 just crashed :p
17:55:22  <peter1138> Argh, so many different variants even on the same chipset :(
17:55:37  <peter1138> 650 vs 680 Mhz... nobody shuold have to care!
17:56:27  <mrfrenzy> haha, I remember the times when every MHz counted
17:56:47  <mrfrenzy> you compared different memory speeds and gpu speeds from different manufacturers of the same card
17:56:53  <peter1138> This is from the same manufacturer...
17:57:01  <mrfrenzy> and with that odd driver version you could get 2 fps extra!
17:57:05  <peter1138> XFX 8600GT vs XFX 8600GT
17:57:11  *** nycerine [] has joined #openttd
17:57:18  <peter1138> actually there's an XFX 8600GT that's 540 MHz too
17:57:41  <peter1138> wtf is GT supposed to represent if there's a wide range of speeds?
17:57:56  <peter1138> XFX 8600GT XXX is 620 MHz...
17:58:04  <peter1138> XFX 8600GTS XXX is 730...
17:58:05  <peter1138> *sigh*
17:58:09  <peter1138> WHY BOTHER
17:58:29  <glx> GTS != GT
17:58:44  <peter1138> I know, it's 40 quid more
17:58:45  <Prof_Frink> XFX 8600 GTi is 620MHz with a go-faster stripe.
17:59:26  <hylje> red things go fasta
17:59:54  <Prof_Frink> Not always true.
18:00:39  <Prof_Frink> In Australia, for instance, silver things go faster than red things.
18:00:46  <Prof_Frink> The the red things break.
18:01:18  *** helb [~helb@] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
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18:02:17  <stillunknown> peter1138: Choose based on chipset, memory, speed, buswidth, not some marketing name.
18:02:28  *** Nitro [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
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18:14:10  <Wolf01> hello
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18:23:41  <yorick> hello
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18:40:17  <peter1138> stillunknown: there are so many numbers :(
18:40:22  <peter1138> Does manufacturer mean much?
18:40:32  <peter1138> It's all nVidia or ATI anyway...
18:40:56  *** TrueBrain [] has joined #openttd
18:40:56  <stillunknown> I personally have bad experiences with msi.
18:41:19  <TrueBrain> as yorick refuses to talk to me about a subject in a channel not related to general OpenTTD (as else he gets kicked by me :p), and tries to PM me... lets continue it here ;)
18:41:24  <TrueBrain> [19:36] <yorick> why not make masterserver communication TCP?
18:41:30  <TrueBrain> [19:39] <TrueBrain> anyway, masterserver: if it would be TCP, it would be down more often then up
18:41:34  <yorick> oki :)
18:41:36  <TrueBrain> [19:40] <yorick> and does that have a reason (channel is NoAI devel :p)
18:41:45  <TrueBrain> TCP for masterservers == bad
18:41:47  <TrueBrain> period :)
18:41:56  <stillunknown> peter1138: there are some general guidelines.
18:42:03  <peter1138> What about UDP for server list and TCP for server info?
18:42:10  <peter1138> Hmm, they're all done at the same time aren't they...
18:42:20  <TrueBrain> cool, let me kill all the servers out there :)
18:42:22  <Digitalfox> Asus Graphics Card based on ATI no fucking way again in my entire life.. Bought a Asus Ati Radeon 9800XT in 2003 for 600$ and had to replaced it 3 times in 6 months..
18:42:26  <peter1138> TrueBrain :D
18:42:28  <TrueBrain> I just request the server info like 20 times
18:42:34  <TrueBrain> and well...I repeat that over and over
18:42:39  <TrueBrain> nicest DDoS ever :)
18:42:46  <stillunknown> more Mhz is better, as long as they have the same memory bus and the same amount of shaders
18:42:46  <peter1138> So
18:42:56  <peter1138> yorick has to make the UDP system multi-packet aware
18:42:58  <TrueBrain> you have a VERY limited amount of available TCP sockets
18:43:08  <TrueBrain> where there are almost unlimited amount of UDP sockets (in fact, send against sendto)
18:43:19  <TrueBrain> that would mean recreating TCP
18:43:19  <TrueBrain> useless
18:43:19  <TrueBrain> worthless
18:43:28  <yorick> not entirely
18:43:41  <peter1138> So you're saying we're stuck with < 1500 bytes of data maximum?
18:43:41  <blathijs> stillunknown: What bad experiences? So far, I think MSI makes okay hardware, but they have an incompetent notebook support department
18:43:46  <yorick> the current server list problem has to do with ^^
18:43:48  <TrueBrain> you guys are over complicating things to the max :)
18:43:55  <Sacro> TO THE MAX!
18:44:03  <peter1138> Probably so, I don't know what yorick wants to achieve.
18:44:07  <TrueBrain> @kick Sacro that was a long time ago
18:44:07  *** Sacro was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [that was a long time ago]
18:44:20  <TrueBrain> what is it exactly what you want to do
18:44:21  <TrueBrain> ?
18:44:22  *** Sacro [~Sacro@adsl-87-102-119-5.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
18:44:25  <Sacro> :(
18:44:40  <yorick> I'm wondering about how to secure the master server list when more servers come
18:44:46  <yorick> selective listing?
18:44:54  <TrueBrain> well, very simple: send out multiple packets
18:44:59  <TrueBrain> without any testing if they ever arrived
18:45:01  <TrueBrain> just send them
18:45:06  <yorick> and if they haven't arrived?
18:45:12  <TrueBrain> well, then they don't
18:45:16  <peter1138> 18:40  TrueBrain> that would mean recreating TCP
18:45:18  <peter1138> 18:40  TrueBrain> useless
18:45:27  <yorick> TrueBrain> without any testing if they ever arrived
18:45:28  <TrueBrain> if you want, make an auto-update that requests a new list every 5 minutes or so
18:45:28  <peter1138> That's what you said when I suggested that?
18:45:35  <blathijs> You could add some sequence numbering
18:45:40  <TrueBrain> peter1138: I never suggested any retrying
18:45:49  <blathijs> And let the client re-request the entire list if it misses any packet
18:45:49  <stillunknown> blathijs: I had a really crap mainbord, and at the time i also found out that a few shops that used to carry msi, didn't do it anymore, precisely over my kind experience.
18:45:54  <TrueBrain> blathijs: possible, a simple number... but I don't see any use of it
18:46:01  <stillunknown> blathijs: It's personal, that i admit.
18:46:05  <TrueBrain> peter1138: simple: if an UDP packet doesn't reach it destination.. well... bad luck
18:46:27  <yorick> and then it misses servers
18:46:33  <TrueBrain> blathijs: the chances of ever getting the full list of the list is big, is almost 0 :)
18:46:34  *** Gonozal_VIII [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
18:46:36  <TrueBrain> yorick: so?
18:46:39  <TrueBrain> would you miss them?
18:46:46  <yorick> more "can't find server!" bug reports?
18:46:52  <TrueBrain> see, if you want to look for a certain server, the chances are high you know where the server is
18:46:59  <TrueBrain> take for example Half-Life
18:47:02  <TrueBrain> hit the masterserver list
18:47:21  <TrueBrain> chances are you get like 80% of the list (true, HL does have some clever sub-systems in place, but still, not all servers are retrieved)
18:47:22  <yorick> http get has been suggested aswell
18:47:25  <TrueBrain> do you ever miss them?
18:47:37  <yorick> there are more clients there
18:47:38  <TrueBrain> http == TCP == bad for masterserver
18:47:47  <TrueBrain> run an UDP test
18:47:55  <yorick> and not for webservers ....
18:47:55  <TrueBrain> send out like 1000 UDP packets, 2 every second
18:47:59  <TrueBrain> see how many are received
18:48:07  <TrueBrain> I estimate it around 98%
18:48:44  <yorick> I wonder if the whole masterserver thing is actually good
18:48:52  <TrueBrain> in general, yes
18:49:03  <yorick> everything dependent on one server, if it goes down...boom...forever...death!
18:49:11  <blathijs> TrueBrain: Is TCP for a masterserver really that bad? There are HTTP servers that do millions of hits per day as well, right?
18:49:17  <TrueBrain> for that we have DNS
18:49:24  <peter1138> master server in dns!
18:49:29  <hylje> !
18:49:35  <TrueBrain> blathijs: well, yes, it is bad :) Give me any game that uses TCP as masterserver :)
18:49:48  <peter1138> A record showing the IP, or AAAA
18:49:55  <peter1138> TXT should version... and everything else ;)
18:49:58  <hylje> AAAAAAAAA!-record
18:50:04  <TrueBrain> blathijs: HTTP servers are slow, in general; but as you want to make sure you get the page you want, you need TCP
18:50:05  <peter1138> GRF IDs would fit into A records!
18:50:12  <TrueBrain> for a masterserver it is different
18:50:20  <peter1138> A ...
18:50:21  <yorick> peer-to-peer server list networking...*crazy ideas here*
18:50:22  <TrueBrain> the idea is that you don't always want everything, you just want to see servers
18:50:27  <peter1138> GOD THAT IS SIC
18:50:28  <TrueBrain> there is no need for 100% data transfer
18:50:30  <TrueBrain> it can get lost
18:50:54  <yorick> more "can't find server!" bug reports?
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18:51:08  <blathijs> TrueBrain: Yeah, I know that UDP would be sufficient. Then again, it doesn't hurt to actually get the full list :-)
18:51:16  <TrueBrain> blathijs: but there is no need :)
18:51:27  <TrueBrain> and I am very sure that if the masterserver would be TCP, it would be more unreachable, than reachable
18:51:30  <yorick> I'm not going to quote again
18:51:39  * peter1138 wonders how much bandwidth the master server uses...
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18:52:00  <TrueBrain> that I can estimate for you
18:52:11  <TrueBrain> it is near to nothing
18:52:22  <blathijs> yorick: I think that adding some sequence numbering to the packets, and re-requesting the list a few times if you miss packages, makes the average coverage (number of servers actually received) quite high
18:52:23  <yorick> what if you retrieve the server list from one known server, and after you have the server list, store it
18:52:27  <TrueBrain> 1.3 kbit/sec on average :p
18:52:58  <fjb> You only would have to rerequest the missing part of the list.
18:53:04  <TrueBrain> fjb: not really possible
18:53:10  <TrueBrain> blathijs: then you can also just use IP fragmentation
18:53:14  <TrueBrain> allows you up to, what.. 17k?
18:53:17  <TrueBrain> something like that
18:53:37  <fjb> TrueBrain: Because the list may have changed?
18:53:43  <yorick> true
18:53:53  <TrueBrain> ah, 8k packet size with IP fragmentation
18:54:10  <TrueBrain> fjb: no, it would mean more complexity on the masterserver, being able to understand such requests
18:54:17  <TrueBrain> basicly then you are recreating socket-less TCP
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18:54:50  <yorick> isn't that a good thing in this case?
18:54:51  <TrueBrain> to summarize what I try to tell you guys: don't worry about the posibility of packet-loss
18:54:58  <TrueBrain> if it ever happens, well.. people just hit refresh
18:55:00  <TrueBrain> shit happens
18:55:02  <TrueBrain> don't worry about it
18:55:07  <fjb> Something like dns uses.
18:55:40  <TrueBrain> yorick: the memory footprint increases, in the best optimized implementation of what ever TCP method you use
18:55:48  <TrueBrain> which means I can bring down the masterserver with ease
18:55:56  *** mikl [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:56:02  <TrueBrain> now the system is simple: signal in, process, signal out, forget
18:56:03  <yorick> like you can't do that now :)
18:56:12  <yorick> and then especcially you
18:56:20  <blathijs> TrueBrain: IP fragmentation will result in no list at all if anything is lost, so you'll have to retry until all packets get through once
18:56:22  <fjb> Do UDP packets really get lost that much?
18:56:22  <TrueBrain> then you get: signal in, process, signal out, remember, handle errors, remember, wait, wait more, handle errors, try to forget ;)
18:56:33  <TrueBrain> blathijs: basicly the same, not? :)
18:56:38  <TrueBrain> fjb: on normal networks, no
18:56:45  <TrueBrain> fjb: on long distances + poor modems, might happen
18:56:46  <peter1138> fjb: only for users with shitty adsl routers...
18:56:53  <blathijs> TrueBrain: I was proposing merging all packets you receive
18:57:06  <blathijs> TrueBrain: Ie, if you miss one packet, you'll have a nearly complete list
18:57:07  <TrueBrain> blathijs: so again, TCP over UDP ;)
18:57:09  <yorick> which might not be a good thing
18:57:19  <fjb> So just stick with the list split into a number of UDP packets and let the users refresh if they are missing a server.
18:57:28  <TrueBrain> okay, reality check: how much servers do you expect to be in OpenTTD in say, 2 years?
18:57:31  *** Frostregen [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:57:46  <peter1138> Don't forget IPv6 ;)
18:57:47  <blathijs> Then, if you re-request the entire list, the chance is very small that you will again miss the same packets, so chances are big you get a (nearly) complete list after 2 or 3 tries
18:57:48  <TrueBrain> @openttd servers
18:57:48  <yorick> double of it as it is now
18:57:49  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: Servers online: 141; Running version 0.5.3 (latest): 65; Clients online: 126
18:57:58  *** Frostregen_ is now known as Frostregen
18:58:06  <blathijs> TrueBrain: So, it's not TCP, since there is no extra server overhead or state tracking
18:58:07  <yorick> hmm...0.6.0-beta5(latest)
18:58:13  <TrueBrain> blathijs: then a smarter way: refresh the list every 5 minutes
18:58:17  <TrueBrain> and fill in any missing IPs
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18:58:23  <TrueBrain> blathijs: you are correct
18:58:31  <TrueBrain> okay, 300 servers in 2 years
18:58:37  <TrueBrain> how much size would that consume?
18:58:37  <blathijs> TrueBrain: It's simply introducing some redundancy in your connection, which doubles or triples the bandwith cost (which shouldn't be so bad)
18:58:42  <TrueBrain> 4500 bytes?
18:58:43  <yorick> too much for current
18:58:54  <TrueBrain> so, 3 UDP packets?
18:59:00  <TrueBrain> really, don't worry about packet-loss there :p
18:59:05  <peter1138> Hmm, how many bytes is each server?
18:59:19  <TrueBrain> peter1138: IP + port
18:59:25  <TrueBrain> so now like 4 + 1
18:59:40  <TrueBrain> IPv6 like 16 + 1
18:59:42  <yorick> no md5?
18:59:48  <TrueBrain> md5?
18:59:53  <peter1138> Er
18:59:53  <yorick> grf's
18:59:55  <peter1138> port is 2 bytes
19:00:00  <TrueBrain> that is server <-> client
19:00:03  <TrueBrain> peter1138: you are right :)
19:00:16  <peter1138> So 300 servers is 1800 bytes
19:00:23  <TrueBrain> the masterlist only gives the client a big list of IPs and ports (last time I checked ;))
19:00:35  <yorick> oh
19:01:02  <TrueBrain> but, I can't be 100% sure about that :p
19:01:08  *** ob0t_ [] has joined #openttd
19:01:21  <TrueBrain> peter1138: yeah, I don't think the masterserver <-> clients is overflowing currently
19:01:24  <TrueBrain> I can check if you like...
19:01:50  <yorick> @calc 141 * 5
19:01:50  <peter1138> Not currently, no.
19:01:50  <DorpsGek> yorick: 705
19:01:57  <yorick> its at half?
19:02:01  <peter1138> @calc 141*6
19:02:01  <DorpsGek> peter1138: 846
19:02:02  <TrueBrain> peter1138: will it ever? :)
19:02:12  <peter1138> Probably not with IPv4.
19:02:17  <peter1138> So, er, why does it need changing?
19:02:21  <TrueBrain> I don't know
19:02:27  <peter1138> OK :D
19:02:29  <TrueBrain> yorick is asking around :)
19:02:32  <yorick> :)
19:02:38  *** josch [] has joined #openttd
19:02:43  <yorick> I managed to read that it ever will
19:03:10  <TrueBrain>       this->serverlist_packet->Send_uint32(servers[i].ip);
19:03:10  <TrueBrain>       this->serverlist_packet->Send_uint16(servers[i].port);
19:03:18  <yorick> 32 :o
19:03:27  <TrueBrain> also, 1 byte for version indication
19:03:34  <TrueBrain> and 2 bytes for server-list-count
19:03:45  <TrueBrain> yorick: sure, it will, maybe, overflow some day
19:03:49  <TrueBrain> lets hope it does!
19:04:16  <TrueBrain> anyway, please put it in your ears for once and for all: MasterServer and GameQuery should be UDP, not TCP
19:04:20  <yorick> @calc ((1500-3)-(141*6))/6
19:04:21  <DorpsGek> yorick: 108.5
19:04:22  <TrueBrain> TCP consumes way too much resources
19:04:31  <TrueBrain> what blathijs suggests is a good idea to implement
19:04:34  <TrueBrain> but in my opinion far from needed
19:05:00  <Belugas> I drink to that!
19:05:06  <Belugas> coffee, of course...
19:05:12  <TrueBrain> hi Belugas :)
19:05:14  <Belugas> Hello TrueBrain
19:05:17  <Belugas> :D
19:05:24  *** Phantasm^ [] has joined #openttd
19:05:31  *** Zaviori [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:05:35  <TrueBrain> blathijs: btw, bandwidth isn't an issue here :) Really none at all :p
19:05:37  <Belugas> glad to see you having a strong conversation in here :D
19:05:48  *** hylej [] has joined #openttd
19:05:49  <TrueBrain> well, I got sick of the same question by different people over and over :p
19:05:51  *** Netsplit <-> quits: Greysc[a]le, ob0t, welterde, Phantasm, hylje
19:05:51  *** hylje_ is now known as hylje
19:06:01  <yorick> With a two-byte size field, the theoretical maximum size is 65535 bytes. However, some implementations of UDP restrict the datagram to a smaller number -- sometimes as low as 8192 bytes.
19:06:21  *** Netsplit over, joins: welterde
19:06:23  <TrueBrain> yorick: UDP max size, including IP fragmentation, is 8k on all sane systems
19:06:35  *** |Jeroen| [] has joined #openttd
19:06:49  *** mikl [] has joined #openttd
19:07:01  <TrueBrain> <- this page explains most of it
19:07:06  *** Nitro [] has joined #openttd
19:07:08  <yorick> :)
19:07:17  *** Dominik [] has joined #openttd
19:07:37  <TrueBrain> yorick: but what is this obsession with making the world more complicated?
19:07:47  <fjb> Ammler: Indiana started his server without road vehicle grf...
19:07:58  <blathijs> TrueBrain: Yeah, that's why it isn't an issue that my approach triples bandwidth :-)
19:08:28  <yorick> everything has to be that way ^^
19:08:38  <TrueBrain> blathijs: indeed :) An other (common) approach is that the MS sends out the result 2 or 3 times, with a bit of delay
19:09:06  <blathijs> TrueBrain: That's essentially the same thing I guess
19:09:31  <yorick> (waarom makkelijk doen als het ook moeilijk kan :))  An other (common) approach is that the MS sends out the result 2 or 3 times, with a bit of delay <-- double the traffic, could fail aswell
19:09:36  <blathijs> TrueBrain: Moves a bit of the complexity from the client to the server, but makes the entire thing less complex I thing
19:10:05  <blathijs> yorick: I think that the possibility of failure really isn't a problem, as long is the chances are small
19:10:14  <TrueBrain> yorick: it can always fail... I can send you 1000 UDP packets, and they can all get lost...
19:10:27  <yorick> you must be lucky that way
19:10:37  <TrueBrain> I call it a firewall
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19:11:48  <TrueBrain> one thing btw about IPv6: a given prefix indicates that an IP is in fact IPv4.. so if you switch to IPv6, the MS only needs to send IPv6 for all IPs, and the client can understand when it is inf act a IPv4
19:12:01  *** nycerine [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:12:05  <TrueBrain> (that prefix is pre-set by IPv6)
19:12:19  <TrueBrain> @calc (1500-10)/18
19:12:20  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: 82.7777777778
19:12:31  <TrueBrain> so then only 82 servers can go in MS, so then there would be need for something blathijs suggests
19:12:47  <yorick> who was that ipv6 patchdevel?
19:12:48  <TrueBrain> a more simpler approach for OpenTTD would be:
19:12:54  <TrueBrain> send 1 packet with IPv4 servers
19:12:57  <TrueBrain> and 1 packet with IPv6 servers
19:13:07  <TrueBrain> problem solved, complexity almost 0
19:13:31  <TrueBrain> (by the time IPv6 has 82+ servers, the network protocol is (hopefully) rewritten anyway :p)
19:13:38  *** Zaviori [] has joined #openttd
19:13:55  <TrueBrain> yorick: I guess SpComb
19:14:19  <yorick> lets go making him aware ^^
19:15:27  <yorick> hmm...where is that masterserver-updater
19:15:40  <TrueBrain> in /something
19:15:44  <TrueBrain> not trunk, branch or tags
19:15:51  <yorick> I know that
19:16:11  <TrueBrain> anyway, enough answers? :)
19:16:25  <yorick> sure
19:16:42  <TrueBrain> k :) Then thank you blathijs for a good and solid solution, and good night to you all :)
19:16:44  <yorick> svn/branches/masterserver_updater
19:16:46  <yorick> night
19:16:57  *** TrueBrain [] has left #openttd [So long and tnx for all the fish]
19:18:20  <blathijs> Hmm, that was quick :-)
19:19:58  *** Zavior [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:23:21  *** YOYO [] has joined #openttd
19:23:27  <YOYO> hello
19:23:57  <yorick> .,,
19:24:53  <YOYO> im trying to get a openttd server up (again) now it says its broadcasting but it doenst show up in the list.... yes ports are forwarded. Also the advertisingthing in console seems to be stalling. can any one verify that the server is up or give support?
19:25:30  <yorick> what IP?
19:26:06  <YOYO>
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19:27:07  <yorick> can't reach
19:27:15  <YOYO> strange
19:27:23  <jez9999> Rubidium around lately?
19:27:44  <YOYO> cause by watching wire shark it seems its recieving its call from the master server
19:30:11  <yorick> today is a very masterserver-y day
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19:30:22  <YOYO2> crappy shit
19:30:35  <YOYO2> anyways its annoying
19:30:52  <yorick> you don't seem to have a steady internet connection...
19:31:13  <YOYO2> ever since the first PC nwith Vista entered it became less stabel
19:31:46  <YOYO2> for some reason my inet modem likes to reset its self eversince
19:33:10  <yorick> servers like running on a steady internet connection
19:33:35  <YOYO2> they dont care ;) but no one can connect to them if it fails
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19:40:42  <YOYO> And the worst shit its getting more and more
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19:45:03  <blathijs> YOYO: I've been having problems with an ADSL modem some time ago, turned out one of the PC's in the network was spyware infested (which attempted to open a couple thousand TCP connections, flooding the modem's NAT buffers...)
19:45:15  <blathijs> YOYO: Perhaps you're having something similar?
19:45:31  <blathijs> Though I required a manual modem reset to get any connection again
19:45:54  <YOYO> blathijs hmmm yeah but how to find that bastard?
19:46:11  <YOYO> asume that this one isnt the infested one as it runs linux full updated
19:46:30  <YOYO> and my PC vista PC is the one who comes second of it
19:46:32  <blathijs> YOYO: Powering every machine down? :-)
19:46:47  <YOYO> couldnt it be my modem is gettin gto old
19:46:52  <blathijs> And then booting them one at a time to see where the problem is
19:47:10  <blathijs> YOYO: It could be simple hardware failure, I guess
19:47:14  <YOYO> thats the problem it can be good for hours and then shutdown
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19:47:47  <blathijs> YOYO: You should see if there is any pattern there (such as starting to fail when some computer is started, or some program perhaps)
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19:48:39  <YOYO> but its annoying
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19:50:43  <YOYO> well wireshark is telling much
19:50:46  <YOYO> a lot of traffic
19:51:27  <yorick> doesn't wireshark cause the failures?
19:51:46  <blathijs> Dumping the traffic before it goes into your modem would be useful, but that requires some nifty hardware I guess
19:52:02  <YOYO> no wireshark intercepts packages
19:52:59  <blathijs> Only if they end up in your machine, so you're probably not getting all the packets
19:53:17  <blathijs> Hmm, about that nifty hardware part -- A hub would probably do the trick just fine :-)
19:54:19  <YOYO> wel placed an ols router as a hub btween PC and ROuter/modem but didnyt help
19:57:40  <blathijs> If it's a somewhat standard ADSL modem, you might try borrowing one from your neighbours are something, to see if that solves the probem
19:58:38  <YOYO> the bestway is to borrow a hub to see if its beter
19:58:46  <YOYO> after that a othe rmodem
20:13:07  <SpComb> reimplementin TCP on top of UDP is something that you want to avoid, but doing our own fragmentation+retry is pretty far from what TCP does
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20:13:23  <SpComb> it would be pretty close to stateless on the server side
20:14:13  <SpComb>;a=summary
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20:21:53  <peter1138> Except if the data changes between requests...
20:22:41  *** Zaviori [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:23:30  <blathijs> peter1138: That doesn't really matter, as long as you simply merge all the data you get
20:23:39  <peter1138> true
20:23:55  <blathijs> peter1138: You might have a server in the list that is no longer valid, but it was valid a few ms ago, so that's not really a problem
20:24:24  <peter1138> or you might miss some
20:24:33  <peter1138> but then you can do that also
20:24:39  <peter1138> er, anyway
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20:26:10  <SpComb> peter1138: indeed, that's the issue I was wondering about
20:26:52  <blathijs> missing some is not really a problem either
20:27:01  <blathijs> As long as you will get most of the list most of the time :-)
20:27:29  <SpComb> best effort, but no 110% garuntee
20:28:16  <SpComb> and yes TCP isn't entirely impossible, and web servers are capable of handling large amounts of traffic
20:28:44  <SpComb> but it would be preferrable to keep the OpenTTD MS on UDP
20:29:09  <blathijs> yeah, stateless is a good idea I guess
20:30:00  <SpComb> imo the client's ms query code could grow a bit thicker, but it would be good to keep the ms's code as thin as possible
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20:33:09  <dragonhorseboy> anyone here from that 'czech game' server?
20:33:16  <dragonhorseboy> (just a long shoot heh)
20:33:18  <SpComb> and the IPv4-translated addresses are transparent to the client, it wouldn't need to handle them
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20:39:56  <blathijs> SpComb: Unless the client's OS doesn't support IPv6
20:40:12  <peter1138> :o
20:40:18  <peter1138> like OS2 :D
20:40:22  <peter1138> I imagine
20:40:24  <peter1138> maybe it does...
20:40:55  <SpComb> oh great, so we need to write our own TCP/IP stack for OpenTTD?
20:41:10  <peter1138> No, just some ifdefs...
20:41:16  <SpComb> :P
20:41:20  <dragonhorseboy> spcomb...yeah I would think so anyhow
20:41:53  <dragonhorseboy> I know some browsers & online softwares that are good but barely just get enough patch fixes to keep up at times save less ipv6/etc
20:41:58  <dragonhorseboy> to our own
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20:42:32  <SpComb> but cross-platformitiy is something that my IPv6 code is midding
20:43:02  <SpComb> the basic stuff works on win32, but even that needs cleanup, talk about the server code
20:44:02  * blathijs has had some trouble with non-IPv6 platforms on an embedded platform
20:44:15  <blathijs> uclibc can have ipv6 switched off, for example
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20:44:34  <antihcl> openttd, woo!
20:44:42  <Prof_Frink> Quite.
20:44:59  <SpComb> rather
20:45:48  <antihcl> it's really gotten quite good.. TTD is one of my favorite games ever and openttd makes it painless and more fun :D
20:46:33  <dragonhorseboy> antihcl...the only one reason I'm still bothering with openttd yet is due to lack of finding any vnc owners (although I might not even be able to run openttd anymore when summer comes around due to change of things/computers tho)
20:46:40  <dragonhorseboy> so meh... ^-^
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20:51:28  <dragonhorseboy> antichl one curious question tho - do you run with grfs? :p
20:53:35  <YOYO2> wireshark tells me that it cant reach this adress associated to openttd: what is this adress?
20:53:46  <glx> master server
20:54:09  <YOYO2> hmm that explains why the server doenst show up there
20:54:23  <antihcl> dragonhorseboy: yeah, I use the UK renewal set
20:55:10  <antihcl> dragonhorseboy: and.. vnc?
20:55:17  <dragonhorseboy> antihcl heh ^-^
20:55:56  <dragonhorseboy> vnc = ttdp-to-ttdp even if the real connection distance is more than 1km far away [well you get the idea heh]
20:56:14  <dragonhorseboy> I've had this idea for some time and even tried it once myself here find anyone else -- not much luck yet :p
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20:56:41  <dragonhorseboy> either way re grfs..I have quite several that I like
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20:57:24  <dragonhorseboy> dbsetxl (I of course am curious to a possible 0.9 set but then am just dangly fine with 0.82 either way) .. NARS (set to arctic-only) ... newships ... etc etc
20:57:26  * dragonhorseboy hehs
21:00:35  <dragonhorseboy> antihcl where you from? canada here
21:01:18  <jez9999> he
21:01:22  <jez9999> hey
21:01:33  <jez9999> Does Rubidium tend to talk in here?
21:02:18  <glx> when he's awake yes
21:02:33  <YOYO2> why is the host not reachebel???
21:02:43  <YOYO2> firewall,router settings?
21:02:46  <YOYO2> cant be
21:03:04  <jez9999> hmm
21:03:17  <jez9999> ok in that case... how do i get a list of available engines for a given track type?
21:03:46  <blathijs> YOYO2: What does a simple ping from your machine do? Or a traceroute?
21:04:03  <antihcl> dragonhorseboy: California, but I live in Dubai
21:05:08  <YOYO2> blathijs its returning
21:05:12  <YOYO2> succesfull
21:05:40  <YOYO2> on this linux machine and the vista machine both see him
21:05:43  *** dR3x4cK [] has quit [Quit: dR3x4cK]
21:06:09  <glx> jez9999: use FOR_ALL_ENGINES and test the track type
21:06:11  <blathijs> but wireshark says it's unreachable? How does wireshark tell you that exactly?
21:06:30  <blathijs> YOYO2: Do you see a host unreachable packet somewhere in the dump or something?
21:06:40  <YOYO2> Destination unreachebel (Port unreachebel)
21:06:58  <YOYO2> (bloody bad english btw :)
21:08:59  <jez9999> glx: k
21:09:32  <blathijs> YOYO2: That's a packet you receive from then?
21:09:45  <blathijs> YOYO2: Does it say which port is unreachable? :-)
21:09:47  <YOYO2> no from the intern to oudside
21:10:52  <YOYO2> from 81.xx.xx.xx to inter its considering port 32772, 3979 from me to 81.Xx.XX.XX no port info known
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21:13:30  <YOYO> first thing to do tomorrow mail the ISP with this annoying resetting
21:13:51  <dragonhorseboy> ^-^
21:14:51  <YOYO> stupid..... ahhh nvm :)
21:17:41  <blathijs> hm?
21:18:13  <Sacro> hellooooooooooooo blathijs
21:18:29  <blathijs> hey Sacro
21:18:44  <dragonhorseboy> :p
21:19:32  <Sacro> blathijs: PBS needs to go into trunk
21:21:20  <Gonozal_VIII> yay pbs
21:25:15  <peter1138> Yes, then we rip it out again ;D
21:25:54  <Gonozal_VIII> bad peter!
21:26:10  <peter1138> Like last time!
21:26:12  * Gonozal_VIII slaps peter around a bit with a large pbs signal
21:26:28  <peter1138> Although this time it works better, so...
21:27:51  <Gonozal_VIII> as far as i know, pbs is the most wanted missing feature right now
21:28:21  <Gonozal_VIII> well.. missing feature with existing patch
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21:28:58  * YOYO thinks his old speedtouch 510 modem router is starting to give way
21:29:20  <YOYO> smells like hot electronics cant be good :)
21:29:32  <dragonhorseboy> heh
21:29:33  <blathijs> Well, your internet is still working... :-)
21:29:48  <YOYO> dont mention that part :P
21:30:51  <dragonhorseboy> :p
21:32:48  <YOYO> he is verry sensitive for the sentence im still working ;)
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21:49:47  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: glx * r12377 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#1854]: set cached value for vehicle property 25 before other cached values
21:52:56  *** Wolf01 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:53:32  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: glx * r12378 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp: -Fix: refresh vehicle details window when cached values are updated
21:56:19  *** Osai^Kendo is now known as Osai
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22:09:33  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: glx * r12379 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: removed now redondant InvalidateWindow() calls
22:12:56  *** dR3x4cK [] has quit [Quit: dR3x4cK]
22:13:12  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: glx * r12380 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp: -Fix: update train acceleration and max speed after setting cached value to ensure the correct max speed is used with disabled real acceleration
22:23:08  *** LIIT [~kdk@] has joined #openttd
22:23:38  <LIIT> evening all :-)
22:25:30  <Eddi|zuHause2> <Ammler> the biggest problem we have that some cargo don't make profit like sand <--- err, did you by any chance add industry/cargo grfs after the scenario was created?
22:32:38  <jez9999> i'm not able to understand RailTypeByte
22:32:51  <jez9999> how am i supposed to check what type of rail something is when im testing RailTypeByte?
22:33:04  <jez9999> its type is some weird custom struct
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22:34:01  <peter1138> if (foo == bar) usually...
22:35:22  *** mikl [] has quit [Quit: Connection reset by Peer Gynt]
22:35:57  <glx> RailTypeByte is just a wrapper aroud RailType
22:36:05  <glx> to force it's size
22:37:37  *** Osai is now known as Osai^zZz
22:37:43  <ln> wtf was the context where the big brother competitor said what she said?
22:37:51  *** Maedhros [] has quit [Quit: leaving]
22:38:39  <Eddi|zuHause2> why would anyone care?
22:40:11  <ln> because it's on the tabloid news papers
22:40:23  <ln> like all the pointless stuff.
22:43:23  <Eddi|zuHause2> why would anyone care?
22:44:05  <Prof_Frink> Eddi|zuHause2: Because people are stupid.
22:44:09  <ln> panem et circenses.
22:44:10  <Gonozal_VIII> wtf big brother is still running
22:44:15  *** UserError [] has joined #openttd
22:44:43  <Gonozal_VIII> didn't that crap end some years ago?
22:45:41  <Eddi|zuHause2> they obviously didn't have worse crap to broadcast
22:46:38  <Eddi|zuHause2> err:dsound:DSOUND_MixOne Fatal error. Under/Overflow? primary_done=64032, mixpos=18144/147456 (18144/147456), primary_mixpos=10784, writepos=12288, mixlen=12480 <<--- anyone think they might be slightly exaggerating?
22:48:31  *** UserErr0r [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:50:11  <peter1138> Huh?
22:51:25  <Eddi|zuHause2> well, if i have sound, and it is playing fine, the error can't be that "fatal"
22:52:58  *** stillunknown [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:54:49  <Sacro> openttd should be doing GSOC :(
22:56:57  *** Ammller [] has joined #openttd
22:58:25  <Ammller> Eddi|zuHause2: thanks for that hint
22:58:35  <Ammller> I need to ask Osai...
22:58:43  *** YOYO [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
22:59:21  <Eddi|zuHause2> Ammller: the wwottdgd people did some hackery with replacing the cargo payment rates chunk in the (uncompressed) savegame
22:59:48  <Ammller> yeah, that was Phazorx
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23:00:05  <Ammller> sadly, he never documented that
23:00:14  <Ammller> I asked him to do it, but :(
23:01:06  <Ammller> a savegame viewer/editor would be a really nice tool :-)
23:01:41  <Eddi|zuHause2> maybe it's time for a "resetcargos" command
23:05:43  <Eddi|zuHause2> # i can't get no sleep
23:06:14  *** elmex [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
23:06:33  <peter1138> Problem is inflation
23:06:33  *** anhedral is now known as dih
23:06:52  <peter1138> I suppose it can work roughly at the start.
23:07:50  <Eddi|zuHause2> i was under the impression that inflation is a factor that is multiplied on each payment, not something that changes the cargo rates
23:12:01  *** phin [] has joined #openttd
23:12:18  <phin> so how do i go about getting upgraded graphics on openttd?
23:12:24  <phin> im sorta confused about the whole thing
23:13:58  <Eddi|zuHause2> you go to and search for a .grf file that you find interesting, then put that into your data directory, then click the "NewGRFs" button on the main menu
23:14:03  <Patrick`> it's a long and amusing process.
23:14:16  <phin> ah ok
23:14:19  <phin> i just wasnt sure
23:14:32  <phin> now are there any packages that just update everything? or is it just some things?
23:15:19  <Eddi|zuHause2> typically, each grf file changes one aspect of the game, i.e. one for bridges, one for trains, one (or more) for industries
23:15:39  <phin> the vector sets are very nice looking
23:15:47  <Eddi|zuHause2> and usually not just graphics, also behaviour
23:16:32  <Eddi|zuHause2> if you need more than one of each type, you have to worry about compatibility
23:16:41  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause2: you have the wrong impression then.
23:16:50  <Patrick`> probem is tht they're not just graphics updates.
23:16:50  <Eddi|zuHause2> peter1138: happens ;)
23:17:01  <phin> what about the ecs patches?
23:17:13  <phin> are they pretty good?  the screen shots ive seen are pretty amazing
23:17:17  <Patrick`> there's no thing that just makes it free to redistribute if that's what you're getting at
23:17:23  <Gonozal_VIII> there are no ecs patches
23:17:41  <Eddi|zuHause2> phin: the ECS grf can be loaded together, just make sure you load them in the right order
23:17:55  <phin> where do i find the order?
23:18:13  <Eddi|zuHause2> phin: the last two numbers of the "GRF ID"
23:18:34  <phin> ok thanks, im going to give this a quick try
23:18:38  <phin> i just wasnt sure
23:18:39  <peter1138> :o
23:18:56  <phin> i couldnt find any information on any of the websites, so i figured i would venture into irc and check :)
23:19:00  <Eddi|zuHause2> and you need a train set or a road vehicle set for the new cargo types
23:19:16  <phin>
23:19:22  <phin> can i just use what i find here?
23:20:41  <Eddi|zuHause2> yes
23:21:10  <fjb> phin: The beta 4 vectors are ok. You will get some trouble if you are using alpha vectors.
23:21:18  <Eddi|zuHause2> although IMHO the "Long Vehicles" are out of scale
23:21:19  <phin> ok thanks
23:21:37  <phin> are there any suggested "packages" i could just grab, that has everything in one download?
23:21:56  <Eddi|zuHause2> search for the openttdcoop grf pack
23:22:13  <Eddi|zuHause2> they have some of the most popular ones
23:22:25  <Patrick`> grfs are an exercise in frustration, but you can't stop people from doing what they want to
23:22:36  <Patrick`> it's like, great, we have 500 trains but the game's still not free to redistribute.
23:22:44  <phin> heh
23:22:55  <Patrick`> someone make some gorramn free sounds or something
23:22:56  <Eddi|zuHause2> don't listen to him ;)
23:23:05  <Patrick`> I understand that freescenery is almost done
23:23:17  <phin>
23:23:20  <phin> so thats what i want?
23:23:30  <Patrick`> this was something i've been whining about for ages - get it into a linux distro and you'll get so many more eyes :)
23:23:38  <Ammller> phin: if you take coop pack, the GRFs are already sorted for working usage
23:23:46  <phin> Ammller: excellant, thanks :)
23:23:52  <Ammller> just use the filesystem
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23:24:06  <phin> sounds good
23:24:26  <phin> just put them in /usr/share/games/openttd/data and i should be set?
23:24:38  <Ammller> the only thing you need to do self is reading the docs
23:24:45  <phin> sounds good
23:24:47  <Ammller> some grfs needs parameter
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23:25:05  <Ammller> yeah, that sounds good for root
23:25:11  <Eddi|zuHause2> phin: newer versions of openttd allow ~/.openttd/data
23:25:20  <phin> im using the newest beta
23:25:21  <Ammller> but user put them to ./.openttd/...
23:25:25  <phin> ok
23:25:26  <phin> cool
23:25:38  <phin> i have a couple of users on this machine, so i generally just put them in root
23:26:05  *** dih is now known as anhedral
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23:26:25  <Eddi|zuHause2> yeah, if you want to share them, the games directory seems appropriate
23:26:42  <Prof_Frink> Patrick`:
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23:27:26  <Ammller> oh, a msn user sends me spam
23:28:37  * SpComb gets that every now and then
23:28:53  <Gonozal_VIII>
23:28:54  <Ammller> is kicking the contact only solution?
23:29:09  <SpComb> a site that says it'll show you what contacts have blocked you, and asks you for your handle/password
23:29:26  <SpComb> ...and then sells your address to spammers and spam itself to everyone on your contact list
23:29:38  <Prof_Frink> Ammller: Do you mean blocking, or going round said contact's house and actually kicking them?
23:29:43  <Gonozal_VIII> that link is spam btw
23:30:14  <Prof_Frink> Because option b) is the far more effective. And satisfying.
23:30:15  <Ammller> SpComb: is for multiplayer only
23:31:01  <Ammller> that would make it somehow legal to use cooppack as a common source too :-)
23:31:48  <phin> ok
23:31:58  <phin> im not seeing any sort of order to load these in in the README or html page
23:32:16  <Ammller> phin: they are already sorted saved
23:32:34  *** Leviath [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
23:32:37  <Ammller> check ottdc_grfpack.cfg
23:32:48  <phin> how do i get that to automaticly load?
23:32:49  <Ammller>
23:33:15  <Ammller> you can't use ALL grfs together
23:33:29  <phin> oh, ok
23:33:49  <Ammller> specially the vehicels and industries
23:34:26  <Ammller> but the directory structure is also the right order
23:35:18  <Ammller> landscape->infrstructure->industries->houses->vechicels
23:36:39  <Ammller> and its taken from GRFCrawler, btw.
23:37:46  <phin> are there any pre recommened sets to use together?
23:37:52  <phin> or is it just sort of hit or miss?
23:40:31  <SpComb> Ammller: what do you mean, legal?
23:41:58  <Ammller> well, we are allowed to distribute the GRFs because we need exact the same GRFs for every player.
23:42:37  <Ammller> and the pack shouldn't be just a download package
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23:44:39  <Ammller> and because is for the same thing, it would be helpful with grfs already there
23:50:49  <SpComb> Ammller: somehow I feel like I missed some context somewhere, I don't really understand what you're talking about
23:51:08  <Ammller> well, not really important
23:51:36  <Ammller> just thought about that, as I tested your server again
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23:54:51  <SpComb> I guess what you mean to say is that the cooppack should be installed on MyOTTD as common newgrfs?
23:55:22  <Ammller> hmm, yeah, somehow :-)
23:58:46  <jez9999> how can I get the group ID of the group that a given Vehicle is in?
23:59:12  <SmatZ> v->group_id maybe?

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