Log for #openttd on 28th March 2008:
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01:23:00  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r12453 /trunk/src/spriteloader/png.cpp: -Fix [FS#1880]: Remove broken endian-dependent code and unnecessary rgb to bgr swapping.
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02:10:39  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: glx * r12454 /trunk/src/ (newgrf.cpp newgrf_engine.cpp):
02:10:39  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Fix (r12452): incorrect calculation for 'first vehicle in this chain of vehicles with the same ID' (thx DaleStan)
02:10:39  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Fix (r12452): wrong loading of random action 2 type 84 for non vehicle (though it shouldn't happen, but who knows ;))
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02:30:33  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: glx * r12455 /trunk/src/ (industry_gui.cpp lang/english.txt newgrf_callbacks.h): -Codechange: Implement NewGRF callback 37 (cargo sub-type display for industries)
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02:48:12  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: glx * r12456 /trunk/src/lang/ (39 files in 2 dirs): -Update: apply english.txt changes from r12455 to other languages
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03:24:01  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: belugas * r12457 /trunk/ (5 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: Move signal enums on their own header.
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04:57:46  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12458 /trunk/src/ (cargotype.h station_gui.cpp): -Codechange: split acquiring the sprite ID for cargos from the actual drawing of them.
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06:32:52  <Eddi|zuHause3> "/usr/share/locale/klingon" <- wtf?
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07:30:31  <peter1138> pom te pom
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07:35:01  <Celestar> morning
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07:35:06  <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause3: ? :)
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07:39:40  <Eddi|zuHause3> apparently, this is the only file in there: -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 399 30. Dez 03:03 /usr/share/locale/klingon/LC_MESSAGES/
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08:12:20  <Celestar> peter1138: do you happen to have the newgrf-station-animation patch wif you?
08:14:25  <Rubidium> isn't that on his 'o'?
08:20:52  <Eddi|zuHause3> he said "at home" yesterday
08:22:30  <Eddi|zuHause3> "statanim7.dif" <- looks like a severe typo ;)
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08:37:45  <Celestar> why?
08:38:29  <Celestar> hm .. AMD makes tri-cores, Intel annouces 6 core-cpus. what next? 7 cores? :P
08:39:02  <peter1138> bah, give me one fast core...
08:51:53  <Forked> you're so old fashioned, peter ;)
08:53:59  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12459 /trunk/src/ (29 files): -Codechange: split news.h into news_type.h and news_func.h.
08:57:07  <Celestar> oh, is Rubidium cleaning up the header mess?
08:58:23  <peter1138> has been for ages
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08:59:28  <Celestar> I don't like that "for ages" part :P
09:01:25  <Eddi|zuHause3> it will also go on f... mmpfffmfmpf...
09:03:50  <Celestar> can we include a "chocobo" vehicle type in ottd?
09:04:55  <Eddi|zuHause3> a what?
09:05:00  <Celestar> Chocobo
09:05:08  <Celestar> wiki it ;)
09:05:59  <Eddi|zuHause3> oh... i should have thunk that :p
09:06:33  <Celestar> they're versatile, fast, go on any terrian and comfortable
09:06:34  <Celestar> :P
09:07:02  <Eddi|zuHause3> and i can't get this compiler to work...
09:10:36  <Eddi|zuHause3> where would i normally find stddef.h?
09:10:56  <peter1138> a chocobo from ffx2?
09:11:08  <Celestar> peter1138: yeah :P
09:11:10  <peter1138> weirdo
09:11:14  <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause3: in /usr/include/linux
09:13:03  <Eddi|zuHause3> "/usr/include/stdio.h", line 34: catastrophic error: could not open source file "stddef.h"
09:13:03  <Eddi|zuHause3>   # include <stddef.h>
09:13:25  <Celestar> wtf?
09:13:30  <Celestar> what compiler is that?
09:14:13  <Eddi|zuHause3> when i add --include_directory=/usr/include/linux, it complains about "size_t not defined"
09:14:56  <Eddi|zuHause3> it's a compiler frontend that i should use for code analysis
09:15:20  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12460 /trunk/src/ (namegen.cpp namegen.h namegen_func.h strings.cpp): -Change: rename src/namegen.h to src/namegen_func.h so MSVC can have both files in it's treelist.
09:15:41  <peter1138> both?
09:16:05  <Rubidium> there's a namegen.h in table/ too
09:16:22  <Rubidium> you did know that, didn't you?
09:18:21  <Celestar> are you telling me that MSVC cannot have two source files of the same name in two different directories?
09:18:27  <peter1138> Celestar, yes
09:18:44  <Celestar> what an ultimately retarded "feature"
09:18:47  <Rubidium> MSFTW!
09:19:03  <peter1138> how can i use the msvc project files without making changes?
09:19:38  <Rubidium> you can't I reckon
09:19:42  <peter1138> i'd rather use SDL than bother with installing the direct x crap
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09:20:35  <Eddi|zuHause3> i thought the directx crap was just used for music?
09:23:34  <Ammler> @openttd ports
09:23:35  <DorpsGek> Ammler: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication and UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound)
09:24:03  <peter1138> Rubidium: i think it is possible
09:24:11  <peter1138> in configuration manager
09:24:16  <peter1138> instead of having "debug" and "release"
09:24:27  <peter1138> well
09:24:33  <peter1138> i added "debug (sdl)"
09:24:47  <peter1138> which has appropriate settings, heh
09:24:59  <peter1138> # cos everybody knows
09:25:02  <peter1138> # she's a femme fatale
09:25:13  <peter1138> BUILD SUCCEEDED :D
09:25:31  <peter1138> hmm
09:25:56  <HMage> build success, more work less talk will commence then?
09:26:51  <HMage> O
09:27:06  <HMage> I'd rather use outdated directx (6.1) rather than 9.0
09:27:14  <HMage> which is shipped with both msvc and mingw
09:27:39  <Eddi|zuHause3> use dx10!!
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09:27:44  <HMage> lol
09:27:57  <HMage> whole openttd in pixel shaders!
09:28:05  <HMage> no cpu, more gpu!
09:28:15  <peter1138> :o
09:28:51  <HMage> the better gfx card you have, the smarter your trains move
09:29:01  <peter1138> :o
09:29:23  <HMage> so a loser with 8600 will have less efficient network than one with 2x9800GTS
09:29:44  <Eddi|zuHause3> Quad SLI :)
09:29:48  <peter1138> 8600... is hardly slow...
09:29:52  <HMage> and yay for physics! real-time-photorealistic train collisions!
09:30:03  <HMage> peter1138: 8600 is the lowest that supports dx10
09:30:09  <Eddi|zuHause3> the matrix cannot cope with explosions
09:30:15  <peter1138> 8400/8500?
09:30:23  <HMage> I didn't know they exist
09:30:37  <Celestar> they do
09:30:50  <HMage> ah, but can't see them here in moscow being sold anywhere
09:30:51  <peter1138> 8600 is for normal people
09:30:54  <HMage> 8600gt is the lowest
09:31:01  <peter1138> 8800/9800 are for fools with too much money
09:31:09  <SpComb> the 9600 looked nice
09:31:23  <peter1138> 256MB 8400GS - £18.99, heh
09:31:41  <HMage> yeah, 9600 will provide a great performance boost for my openttd :D
09:31:49  <peter1138> 1GB 9800 GX2 - £340
09:31:50  <SpComb> lies
09:32:04  <peter1138> might with the opengl driver ;)
09:32:04  <HMage> SpComb: that was sarcasm
09:32:33  <SpComb> lies
09:32:40  <HMage> I want pixel-accurate train collisions!
09:33:02  * Celestar gives HMage a pixel-accurate fist-to-nost collision
09:33:04  * Celestar ruls
09:33:07  <Celestar> runs*
09:33:07  <HMage> I want realistic train failures when they go out of track
09:33:19  <peter1138> transport empire will do all that and more!
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09:33:36  * HMage doesn't have a dx10-compatible card so your fist dave through my unharmed nose
09:33:42  <Celestar> peter1138: yeah, after NASA has put a man on Mars
09:33:53  <HMage> dove*
09:33:54  <peter1138> on jupiter
09:34:02  <HMage> on alpha centauri
09:34:09  <Celestar> Vulcan!
09:34:14  <HMage> yay
09:34:22  <HMage> Live long and prosper!
09:34:39  <HMage> build long trains and your transport company prospers!
09:34:54  <HMage> (OpenTTD Vulcan edition)
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09:35:54  * HMage runs around
09:35:57  <Celestar> it would be illogical for the Vulcans to have a capitalistic systems
09:36:05  <HMage> that's why it's a game
09:36:10  <Celestar> :P
09:36:18  <Celestar> openttd, socialist edition?
09:36:50  <HMage> I suspect Feringhi would be most active openttd code contributors :)
09:36:51  <Rubidium> :O with the destroy everything cheat disabled and only one player
09:37:05  <Celestar> Rubidium: yeah :)
09:37:06  <HMage> I hope I spelt them right
09:37:06  *** Xeryus|bnc is now known as XeryusTC
09:37:28  <HMage> actually no, socialst edition is when everyone can build
09:37:43  <Eddi|zuHause3> probably not ;)
09:37:45  <HMage> so you'll have every town's each own transport systems and you'll need to do a revolution with red army
09:37:54  <HMage> so you can have it under your control
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09:38:05  <HMage> OpenTTD Yuri's Revenge
09:38:05  <Celestar> yeah, everyone can build but only one gets all the money. In US dollars :P
09:39:10  <HMage> did anyone tried to calculate how many tiles would be needed to accomodate whole planet at realistic distances?
09:39:28  <HMage> so you can have russia, usa, africa, london, etc
09:39:29  <Celestar> HMage: openttd doesn't provide realistic distances
09:39:34  <HMage> I know
09:40:02  <HMage> at least with train speed wise
09:40:02  <Eddi|zuHause3> in airport distances -- not much
09:40:07  <Celestar> HMage: it's about 50 meters per tile for the detail, 500m for airports and 5km for distances between towns
09:40:48  <Eddi|zuHause3> in train lengths -- very much
09:41:16  <Celestar> assuming the earth is rectangular, that'd be about 8192x4096 tiles.
09:41:27  <Eddi|zuHause3> *wÀÀÀÀh* this is so annoying...
09:41:29  <HMage> I thought bigger
09:42:01  <Celestar> HMage: in airport distaance 81920x40960 and in full detail 819200x409600
09:42:25  <Celestar> so that'd be 3.3^11 tiles
09:42:31  <HMage> 819200x seems closer to reality, cause I asked this because I was wonder what if OpenTTD was MMO
09:42:45  <Celestar> so that's around 1TB of main memory you need.
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09:42:49  <HMage> ahha
09:42:59  <Celestar> hm..not enough
09:43:03  <Celestar> rather 8TB or summin
09:43:08  <Eddi|zuHause3> just make the swap big enough ;)
09:43:12  <Forked> time to start swapping :p
09:43:19  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12461 /trunk/ (3 files in 2 dirs): -Change: add (quite) some missing headers to the MSVC project files.
09:43:24  <Forked> using sold state disks..
09:43:49  <HMage> how many bytes per tile is used?
09:44:03  <Celestar> considering a normal desktop PC can run a 2k x 2k map normally...
09:44:19  <Celestar> that'd be 16 million CPUs you'd need.
09:44:28  <Rubidium> HMage: 9
09:44:45  <HMage> is it compiler-dependent?
09:44:46  <Celestar> 16 million CPUs at only 1 Gigaflop is 16 Petaflops
09:45:05  <Celestar> that's more than the top500 supercomputers have together. So: forget it ;)
09:45:27  <HMage> Celestar: it's just one of those "what if" ponderings :)
09:45:35  <Celestar> really? :P
09:45:38  <HMage> yup
09:45:49  <Celestar> HMage: no it should be 9 bytes/tile on (most) compilers
09:46:13  <HMage> I see, how did you manage that? forced packing?
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09:48:12  <Rubidium> HMage: but that excludes information needed for industries, towns, vehicles, players and all that stuff
09:48:21  <HMage> I know I can rearrange, but still. my client_t struct is 496 bytes big on msvc and 476 on gcc4
09:48:46  <Eddi|zuHause3> HMage: docs/landscape_grid.html
09:49:06  <Eddi|zuHause3> and src/*_map.h
09:49:37  <HMage> Eddi|zuHause3: it's just pondering, I don't want to dig myself into openttd internals that much, just wanted to ask from the devs that probably know this off their memory.
09:50:41  <HMage> sorry, no offence. Didn't mean to.
09:50:47  <keyweed> only 16 milion cpu's. i can donate three.
09:50:59  <Celestar> HMage: it's two structs. One with 8 bytes and one with a single byte, so that we don't run into packing problems :)
09:51:01  <HMage> I can donate one. Celeron 266 :D
09:51:11  <HMage> Celestar: I see
09:51:23  <Eddi|zuHause3> only 3 cpus? each modern car has magnitudes more than that
09:51:27  <keyweed> see. now we only need 15 999 996
09:51:38  <keyweed> what's a car?
09:51:48  <HMage> keyweed: he means train car :)
09:51:57  <keyweed> HMage: ah. a wagon
09:52:00  <Celestar> A Chocobo whth wheels.
09:52:05  <HMage> the one you put coal in, fr example :)
09:52:29  <HMage> Toyota Coal Wagon
09:52:41  <HMage> sounds delicious
09:52:42  <keyweed> yeah. i was getting worried. people are trying to convince me the world should be full of weird small personal transport system
09:52:50  <keyweed> bit like busses, only there hardly fit people in there.
09:53:08  <keyweed> silly people. you'd need to cover the earth in asfalt for that to work.
09:53:23  * HMage prefers horses to cars
09:53:35  <HMage> horses even have their own coal generator :D
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09:53:49  <Celestar> keyweed: yeah, I use one of the things daily :)
09:55:25  <keyweed> Celestar: i don't. i find it hard to read in them and i can't afford to waste my transportation time watching the road
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09:55:48  <Celestar> yeah I know that problem, but there's no way around it.
09:56:09  <Celestar> plus reading requires a seat. I only have that in personal vehicles ;(
09:56:15  <keyweed> but well. seriously. most countries don't have very efficient public transport.
09:56:21  <keyweed> reading doesn't require a seat :P
09:56:33  <Celestar> for me it does.
09:56:41  <Rubidium> why would you read in the train when you can watch television?
09:56:59  <Celestar> you can? on a subway ?
09:57:05  <keyweed> what would i watch?
09:57:07  <larsemil> cause reading a book is better
09:57:13  <Eddi|zuHause3> why would you watch television if you have the internets?
09:57:19  <keyweed> most tv is just plainly annoying
09:57:29  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause3: too much Colbert for you!
09:58:36  <Eddi|zuHause3> hm... actually i don't watch that...
09:59:02  <HMage> I want pixel-shader explosions in OpenTTD!
09:59:18  <HMage> With poker, with blackjack and hookers.
09:59:23  * keyweed hands HMage a C manual
09:59:27  <keyweed> good luck
09:59:36  <[1]Roujin> morning
09:59:54  * Rubidium wonders how much pixel shaders HMage is willing to sacrifice for that
10:00:00  * [1]Roujin fell asleep at the computer yesterday -_-
10:00:27  <Eddi|zuHause3> i sacrifice two pixel shaders to summon a vertex shader
10:00:28  <Rubidium> and I'm also wondering how to explode the pixel shader
10:01:24  <HMage> Rubidium: with blackjack, with poker
10:01:26  <HMage> and hookers
10:01:27  <Eddi|zuHause3> then i tap two white gpus to attack HMage with my vertex shader
10:01:31  <Celestar> Rubidium: buy a GF9800 and rip the heat sink off?
10:01:37  * keyweed ties a certain politician to a train track and tries to focus on work
10:01:48  * [1]Roujin is still too tired to succesfully resist laughing. damnit you guys ^_^
10:01:54  <Rubidium> but then it explodes before it can pass the POST
10:02:22  <Celestar> keyweed: is that politician by chance a president?
10:02:54  <keyweed> Celestar: no, and he'll never be that. it's a certain white haired dutch idiot
10:03:01  <Celestar> oh :)
10:03:09  * Celestar gets himself some food
10:03:53  * HMage goes to get himself some hookers
10:08:00  <Celestar> ROFL
10:08:02  <Celestar> for the dutch:
10:08:06  <Celestar>
10:08:40  <[1]Roujin> may i redirect your guys' mental capacity (at least of those who haven't left for food or hookers) from telling jokes to telling me if and where I can find something like game_ticks in the ottd code?
10:09:07  <Rubidium> date*
10:09:30  <[1]Roujin> i'll look into that, thanks
10:10:06  <Celestar> [1]Roujin: the video drivers might be helpful as well
10:10:50  * HMage would use search in files, but he doesn't have source code handy... and he's already in his pyjamas...
10:10:57  <keyweed> Celestar: hehe
10:12:39  <[1]Roujin> celestar: yes, i've grepped for that, and just found some weird stuff in weird video files i don't understand :P
10:12:51  <Celestar> like what?
10:13:13  <[1]Roujin> oh no it was GetTick i've grepped for
10:13:13  <Celestar> the video drivers run the main loop
10:13:21  <HMage> [1]Roujin: I don't know how openttd works, so it's just a wild guess: game_ticks get updated only when video driver is capable of drawing a new frame
10:13:27  <keyweed> i don't even own a mobile home, am i really dutch?
10:13:57  <[1]Roujin> src/video/cocoa/ <-- I don't even have a clue what mm is
10:14:11  <Celestar> isn't that C# or something?
10:14:12  <Rubidium> objC++
10:14:18  <Celestar> er Obj-C++ sorry
10:14:22  <Celestar> you on a Mac?
10:15:11  * HMage gets some more hookers
10:15:21  <[1]Roujin> Rubidium: so date is basically an int32 thats holding the ticks?
10:15:28  <Celestar>
10:15:31  <Rubidium> nope
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10:15:41  <Rubidium> Date holds the days
10:15:56  <Rubidium> but (src/)date* has some stuff about ticks
10:16:00  <[1]Roujin> celestar: no, winXP using msys/minGW for coding stuff
10:16:18  <Celestar> [1]Roujin: cocao is mac stuff
10:16:46  <Celestar> [1]Roujin: have a look at win32_v.cpp
10:16:49  <Celestar> MainLoop
10:18:44  <Celestar> <= MUUHAHA
10:20:58  <Celestar> what the fuck?
10:21:56  <Rubidium> cash cow!
10:23:42  <Zuu> Celestar: At least you are allowed to do a u-turn :)
10:24:04  <Celestar> Zuu: you may also take off vertically and dig into the ground?
10:24:12  <Zuu> Hmm, or maybe not. if the third is "no u-turn".
10:24:54  <Zuu> Celestar: Yea, or why not build a wormwhole.
10:25:10  <[1]Roujin> do i get it right that GetTickCount() is a function provided by the OS?
10:25:23  <Celestar> Boooooze:
10:25:24  <HMage> yup, by win32, and it's slow
10:25:43  <HMage> my last reply was for [1]Roujin
10:26:21  <[1]Roujin> hmm then that's not exactly what i was looking for oO .. but i think i found what i need --> VARDEF uint16 _tick_counter;
10:27:02  <HMage> [1]Roujin: would you tell us what you are looking for? current date in gametime? (11th Apr 2010)
10:27:25  <Zuu> Celestar: Some friends at gave away a 3 meter tall beer to a guy also from on his 18 year birthday.
10:28:17  <Celestar> Now THIS is snafu'ed:
10:28:21  <[1]Roujin> nope, some raw value i can drive traffic lights transitions from without using a weird combination of TileLoop and AnimatedTiles as it is now
10:28:56  <Rubidium> GetTickCount is not safe for that
10:29:36  <[1]Roujin> yes, i won't use that. I'll use _tick_counter methinks
10:30:06  <Rubidium> goes from 0 to 73 (or something else when you modified it)
10:30:42  <[1]Roujin> i think you're confusing it with _date_fract
10:30:55  <Rubidium> hmm, could be
10:31:21  <[1]Roujin> _tick_counter only has ++'es in the IncreaseDate function so i guess it will overflow at 655xx what's it
10:31:26  <Rubidium> ah, that looks safeist
10:31:27  <[1]Roujin> 2^16
10:31:29  <Rubidium> ah, that looks safeish
10:33:24  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12462 /branches/noai/ (173 files in 20 dirs): [NoAI] -Sync: with trunk r12304:12461.
10:33:58  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12463 /3rdparty/squirrel/squirrel/sqcompiler.cpp: [Squirrel] -Fix: silence another gcc-4.3 warning.
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11:09:28  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12464 /trunk/src/ ( resource.h): -Change: remove an include that doesn't define anything anyway.
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11:46:53  <peter1138> blah de blah
11:48:07  <Volley> maybe a stupid question, but is 0.6.0-rc1 mislabeld? i just downloaded the source (to patch YAPP into it), built a debian package, and it has version "0.7~svn" now...
11:50:48  <Rubidium> yup, looks like the debian package file is a little messed up
11:51:06  <Rubidium> just remove the top few lines and it should be ok
11:52:24  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12465 /branches/0.6/os/debian/changelog: [0.6] -Fix: for the 0.6.x releases we shouldn't say we're 0.7.0~svn.
11:52:42  <Rubidium> but then again, if you patch YAPP into it it isn't 0.6.0-RC1 anymore either
11:52:52  <Volley> true :)
11:56:59  <Volley> editing debian/openttd/DEBIAN/control and debian/files should do ... sigh, i really need to learn some basics about how to build debian packages and what i can do with the package management
11:59:45  <[1]Roujin> oO
12:00:01  <[1]Roujin> my openttd just started in a 100x50 pixels window oO
12:00:41  <[1]Roujin> ok, seems i messed something up
12:01:09  <SmatZ> you can resize the window :)
12:01:31  <[1]Roujin> yeap did that
12:01:40  <[1]Roujin> then clicked on configure patches and it crashed...
12:01:44  <SmatZ> :-x
12:01:50  <[1]Roujin> seems it doesn't like savegame version 1001 after all....
12:02:00  <SmatZ> :)
12:02:25  <[1]Roujin> or.. maybe i've messed up somewhere else '-_-
12:02:31  <[1]Roujin> gnarf
12:03:39  <Volley> accidentially copied your openttd config from your mobilephone or so? :)
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12:08:31  <[1]Roujin> appearently the savegame version being 1001 was indeed the fault...
12:09:18  <[1]Roujin> i thought it was uint16 - shouldn't it be able to cope with numbers up to 65535 then?
12:19:43  <Phantasm^>
12:22:47  <Volley> Rubidium: aargh - now i get it: the version number used for packaging is parsed from the changelog ...
12:25:26  <peter1138> worlds hardest game was the sentinel, with no instructions
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12:26:43  <Volley> depends on what you call "game" ... some consider gcc as their favourite game ...
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12:34:04  <[1]Roujin> well it's not really that hard.. at least i've completed 8/30 of it now so i guess it's an overstatement :O
12:34:17  <[1]Roujin> bored now... back to coding
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12:36:23  <Volley> see - games like gcc have way more depth :)
12:37:01  <SpComb> hmm
12:38:46  <SpComb> pfft, what did you expect from a game called "The World's Hardest Game?"
12:39:21  <SpComb> I suspect N's a lot harder than that game
12:39:49  <SpComb> or at least has a lot more potential to be a lot harder
12:40:05  <SpComb> same kind of game, though
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12:47:53  <[1]Roujin> dang... now i succeeded in driving the traffic lights off the game ticks instead of storing their state in the map array, but they aren't refreshed properly...
12:48:36  <[1]Roujin> i guess i cannot iterate over the whole map and mark each tile with a traffic light dirty every tick ><
12:48:53  <[1]Roujin> or every 256th tick even
12:49:57  <Rubidium> just let them change their state on each tileloop tick
12:51:21  <[1]Roujin> thing is, tileloop isn't fast enough for yellow states
12:51:45  <Rubidium> I thought that goes every 256 ticks
12:53:01  <Rubidium> the only trick you could try is marking it animated and when that 'triggers' turn it to red and remove the animation
12:53:20  <[1]Roujin> i've done that with my current version...
12:54:09  <[1]Roujin> ooh... wait a second
12:54:23  <[1]Roujin> i could just add all traffic light tiles to the animated tile list
12:55:39  <[1]Roujin> that way it won't have to iterate over the whole map, just go through the list. I guess that's acceptable performance wise
12:58:34  <[1]Roujin> once it works as expected, they will need only one bit in the map array (are there trafficlights? yes/no)
12:59:52  <Ammler> I tried to apply a patch (distant-join-station) to current trunk, one Hunk failed:
13:03:11  <Ammler> with current trunk snippet:
13:04:20  <Ammler> failed it, because there is one new key after since patch?
13:05:10  <[1]Roujin> well, just add the line from trunk (OSK = on screen keyboard), then the one from the patch...
13:06:02  <[1]Roujin> you get conflicts easily when adding stuff at the same place
13:06:56  <[1]Roujin> i also get that when adding two patches that both add a (or several) patch options
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13:08:56  <peter1138> Not that hard to resolve...
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13:10:07  <[1]Roujin> of course.. just add one after the other
13:11:44  <Ammler> yep, thanks, was just wondering, if there is something else
13:12:07  <Ammler> why can't patch not apply such diff?
13:13:58  <peter1138> because it doesn't know what should happen
13:16:21  <[1]Roujin> there might be cases where one thing must go before the other, and how should it know which one goes first?
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13:20:53  <Ammler> well, and how should I know that?
13:20:59  <karen44st> hiya
13:21:13  <keyweed> hi karen
13:21:24  <karen44st> how are you
13:21:29  <Ammler> before or after "WC_OSK"?
13:21:49  <peter1138> it doesn't matter
13:22:56  <keyweed> karen44st: i'm good. how's you?
13:23:12  <karen44st> im fine thanx
13:24:36  <karen44st> were you from
13:25:04  <peter1138> toyland
13:25:20  <karen44st> weres that
13:25:36  <peter1138> on the right
13:25:37  <Belugas> besides the desert tropical island :)
13:25:51  <karen44st> ohhhhh nice
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13:34:52  <pax```> hi does 'presignals' feature require anything other than openttd itself? I can't find it in game
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13:36:24  <peter1138> nope
13:36:44  <peter1138> ctrl-click on signals or use the signal gui to use them
13:37:39  <Trond> talking about signal gui... wouldnt ON be a better default ^^
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13:38:01  <Belugas> denied!
13:38:06  <peter1138> no
13:38:06  <Trond> ouch
13:38:09  <peter1138> because it sucks
13:38:34  <Trond> rly?
13:38:40  <Belugas> and it's buggy, but strangely, no users reported it...
13:38:48  <Belugas> like... HOooo!!! In TRUNK, QUICK
13:38:53  <Belugas> but once on trunk,
13:38:55  <Belugas> no one care
13:38:58  <Belugas> +s
13:39:00  <Belugas> users...
13:39:03  <Belugas> prrrrrrrt!
13:39:08  <Trond> works fine for me... I use it all the time...
13:39:35  <Belugas> then, you are not using it in a way that it shows ther bugs, or you do not notice them :P
13:39:52  <Trond> I must be doing it right then :P
13:40:42  <Trond> only signal bug I've seen is that sometimes a signal doesnt work as intended and I have to remove and add it again for it to work...
13:45:12  <Belugas> heheh
13:45:17  <Belugas> that's not it :)
13:45:51  <peter1138> its coding style sucks too
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13:48:07  <Belugas> yup.  But if coding style was considered a bug, there would be a lot of patches considered t be buggy as hell
13:48:10  <Belugas> ho wait..
13:48:14  <Belugas> it'sa already the case ^_^
13:48:29  <Belugas> hello glx :)
13:48:39  <Phantasm^> Belugas: Is the bug about too few industry after long time on big maps (and too many on small maps) fixed?
13:49:03  <glx> it's not a bug, it's a newgrf feature :)
13:49:24  <Belugas> have you written a patch Phantasm^?
13:49:29  <Belugas> have you checked the logs?
13:49:39  <Phantasm^> glx: I wouldn't say so.
13:49:57  <Phantasm^> Belugas: No and no. I have no idea where such logs are even. I once tried to find them with no success.
13:50:02  <Belugas> such an implacable argument...
13:50:12  <DaleStan> Phantasm^:
13:50:22  <glx> or hg. or git.
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13:52:08  <Phantasm^> God damn I hate wordpad over and over again.
13:52:16  <Gekz> lol
13:52:18  <Gekz> get a real OS
13:52:21  <Phantasm^> There is no fucking easy way to drag and drop staff in there so I could read it.
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13:52:31  <Gekz> like... BeOS
13:52:35  <Gekz> or OpenVMS
13:52:45  <Phantasm^> It just puts a nice box that opens on notepad that doesn't support linux type row changes..
13:52:46  <Belugas> get a life, Gekz
13:52:57  <Belugas> any OS is good, as long as you know how to deal with it
13:54:20  <Phantasm^> The svn fails.. It won't show full changelog anywhere and the download only shows changelog of those beta releases and not svn..
13:54:32  <Phantasm^> How do I see *FULL* changelog no matter how big it is?
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13:56:15  <Gekz> Belugas: not true
13:56:21  <Gekz> CP/M sucked ass
13:56:36  <Belugas> is it still in use? No? so moot!!!
13:56:41  <Belugas> moooooooooooooooooot
13:56:44  <glx> I have it on my cpc
13:56:49  <Phantasm^> Gekz: Btw, NT kernel (any version, not sure about newest due to vista drm shit) is far superior to Linux.
13:57:06  <Phantasm^> It is what is on top of it that makes the bad stuff on windows.
13:57:20  <Gekz> Phantasm^: and that reason is?
13:57:26  <Belugas> ho boy... /me goes work@work
13:57:33  <keyweed> Gekz: magic
13:57:37  <Phantasm^> Gekz: Go study it and you'll see. ;P
13:57:47  <Gekz> Phantasm^: I already know, I'm wondering if you do.
13:58:02  <keyweed> but Phantasm^ could be right, hard to tell if you haven't read the source.
13:58:18  <Phantasm^> Gekz: They are on a whole different level. And yes, I don't know much about how they differ, but I have heard from my friends (who know their stuff so I can trust them being correct on it).
13:58:30  <Phantasm^> keyweed: There are ways even without the source.
13:58:51  <keyweed> my colleagues, who modify kernels themselves, dissagree with Phantasm^
13:59:21  <keyweed> but "i heard that an expert told me that" is quite a moot argument.
13:59:22  <Gekz> Phantasm^: care to elaborate on those ways
13:59:33  <Gekz> it amuses me when people have an argument with no primary sources.
14:00:16  <Phantasm^> Gekz: Well, I'm not that much interested in that to take the time to learn the differences myself.
14:00:22  <keyweed> good and bad is usually a feeling people have somewhere in there belly.
14:00:42  <Gekz> Phantasm^: then dont take part in the argument.
14:00:52  <keyweed> making a list of provable good and bad features, characteristics or functionality is too much work
14:00:58  <Phantasm^> Gekz: You said me get a real OS and I replied.
14:01:02  <keyweed> "passion rules reason"
14:01:07  <Gekz> you ranted abuot the kernel
14:01:14  <Gekz> lol
14:01:24  <Gekz> OS != kernel
14:01:35  <Gekz> it's a collective of crap
14:01:39  <keyweed> Phantasm^: your defending something without proof, arguments or examples.
14:01:50  <Phantasm^> keyweed: So? :)
14:01:53  <keyweed> you were told something and accpet it as truth
14:01:59  <Gekz> Someone on the internet is _WRONG_
14:02:08  <Phantasm^> keyweed: If that one person tells me something, I accept it as trust quite easily. ;P
14:02:17  <keyweed> nations burned because people just assumed things they were told were true
14:02:33  <Phantasm^> The source matters a lot on how I accept things without proof.
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14:02:55  <Gekz> Phantasm^: American!
14:03:00  <keyweed> very very few things are absolutely true. as for the OS crussades, almost nothing your are told is true :)
14:03:08  <keyweed> *crusades
14:03:17  <Gekz> keyweed: kernel debuggers make the linux kernel panic
14:03:21  <Gekz> thats true
14:03:22  <Gekz> :)
14:03:38  <keyweed> could be, too lazy to try and reproduce it :P
14:03:38  <Phantasm^> keyweed: This is nothing about OS crusades.
14:03:54  <keyweed> Phantasm^: no, but the windows kernel is superior. "just because"
14:03:57  <Phantasm^> And the person I heard those things from does not take any part in OS crusades either.
14:04:01  <keyweed> and "my friend is more reliable then your friend"
14:04:02  <Phantasm^> keyweed: Yes, just because. ;P
14:04:31  <Phantasm^> I never asked you to believe it. I just stated something without proving it. I replied when asked why I stated that.
14:04:42  <Phantasm^> Not to prove it, just to answer to the question.
14:05:44  <Gekz> !
14:05:45  <Gekz> !!
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14:07:39  <Phantasm^> And as you are so much about proving things, prove me Linux is better than say NT 5.2 kernel.
14:08:08  <Gekz> one word: GPL
14:08:11  <Gekz> lol
14:08:14  <Gekz> one acronym*
14:08:18  <Phantasm^> License doesn't prove anything.
14:08:25  <Gekz> ... it proves a lot
14:08:35  <Phantasm^> Not in this case.
14:08:41  <Gekz> lol, wtf.
14:08:46  <Gekz> if you say so
14:08:50  <Gekz> I'm not caring to argue
14:08:51  <Phantasm^> I make you a GPL hello world and it is better than NT 5.2 kernel because it is GPL?
14:08:54  <Gekz> I didnt even say Linux
14:09:03  <Gekz> hello world isnt a gpl''d kernel
14:09:07  <keyweed> i don't have to prove anything. not that i could, i'm not a kernel developer
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14:09:24  <Gekz> I said BeOS or OpenVMS
14:09:24  <Gekz> lol
14:09:35  <keyweed> but a) i just don't trust code i can't read b) i want my OS to be supplied with a lot of love and political corectness
14:09:38  <Phantasm^> Gekz: Yes it isn't. But just because something is GPL doesn't make it a better kernel than closed source one.
14:09:55  <Gekz> better is contextual
14:10:01  <Gekz> and very opinion based
14:10:03  <Gekz> and its a freaking kernel
14:10:07  <keyweed> Phantasm^: closed source makes the quality of somethin indeterminable.
14:10:17  <Gekz> it doesnt matter how good the kernl is if the software sucks a giant cock
14:10:24  <Phantasm^> Ok, let's define better in mathematical sense so that closed or open source do not matter at all in it.
14:10:31  <keyweed> the entire windows kernel could be full of goto's and void loops, we'd never know
14:10:50  <Phantasm^> keyweed: You can reverse engineer it and you can test the output without looking into the source.
14:11:10  <keyweed> and microsoft products are never suplied with any love. they just take your money and stop caring about you
14:11:15  <keyweed> Phantasm^: that's illegal
14:11:18  <Phantasm^> It doesn't matter how it is done, as long as it does what it is supposed to, is fast, stable and secure.
14:11:23  <keyweed> Phantasm^: read the eula
14:11:28  <Gekz> while (true) { putc "L"; putc "O"; putc "L"; putc(\n"
14:11:31  <Phantasm^> keyweed: And I care because?
14:11:31  <Gekz> bah
14:11:35  <Gekz> ctrl j = \n
14:11:37  <Gekz> how annoying
14:11:41  <Gekz> but you get the picture
14:11:42  <Phantasm^> Eula have no meaning in here.
14:11:43  <keyweed> Phantasm^: apparently you don;t care.
14:11:57  <ben_goodger> (¡!¡!)⁷²
14:11:57  <ben_goodger> windows is, currently, better at low-latency usage such as video. beyond that, I cannot conceive any advantage
14:11:57  <Phantasm^> Nothing stated in eula have any legal value here.
14:11:59  <ben_goodger> Phantasm^: a GPL'd hello world is more useful in many fields than the NT 5.2 kernel, because we can see how it works
14:12:03  <ben_goodger> Phantasm^: you can't define it that way. the ability of other people to see how something works is a large factor in its goodness
14:12:03  <ben_goodger> keyweed: you can bet your lower back it's full of gotos
14:12:03  <Gekz> Phantasm^: not true
14:12:03  <keyweed> you'r making usless statements in void context and don't care.
14:12:05  <ben_goodger> well, it's certainly not secure...
14:12:12  <Gekz> Phantasm^: it _is_ a license agreement
14:12:18  <Gekz> one that allows you to get a refund
14:12:18  <Phantasm^> Gekz: And has no legal value here.
14:12:23  <Gekz> I think that's legally abiding
14:12:35  <Gekz> yes it does
14:12:42  <Gekz> the EU supports abusing it like nothign I've ever seen
14:12:45  <Phantasm^> In Finland EULA is not legally binding.
14:12:47  <keyweed> Phantasm lives in china?
14:12:57  <ben_goodger> Gekz: to be fair, the limit to which a contract can impede one's rights under copyright law is variable and, in developed countries, nil
14:13:29  <Gekz> the Apple licence is terrible
14:13:43  <Gekz> and I'm going to sleep
14:13:48  <Gekz> 1am ist nicht sehr gut.
14:13:50  <Gekz> Nacht.
14:13:53  <Phantasm^> Ok, for companies EULA might affect, but for customers EULA is not legally binding in Finland.
14:14:03  <ln> Gekz: English only.
14:14:30  <ben_goodger> ln: is it not perfectly obvious what that means?
14:14:30  <ben_goodger> bonan nokton, Gekz
14:15:00  * keyweed makes a note never to hire Phantasm^
14:15:09  <ln> ben_goodger: sure, i can speak german.
14:15:31  <ben_goodger> ah yes.
14:15:37  <ben_goodger> well, it's obvious to me also ^_^
14:16:14  <ben_goodger> can we use constructs <span xml:lang="en">like this</span> ? :)
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14:22:39  *** Osai`off is now known as Osai
14:24:30  <ben_goodger> incidentally, I have just installed linux 2.6.24. initial investigation indicates vastly improved latency
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14:29:16  <keyweed> 'improved latency' .. is that good?
14:32:43  <ben_goodger> yeah
14:32:45  <ben_goodger> it's more responsive, video plays better
14:32:54  <ben_goodger> low-latency applications [video players, gui renderers] need a small amount of processor time, but they need it ten minutes ago. high-latency applications [http servers] need a lot of time, but they aren't fussed about when they get it
14:32:57  *** mikl [] has quit [Quit: Connection reset by Peer Gynt]
14:33:37  <ben_goodger> previous kernels were apparently biased towards the high-latency stuff, which made linux feel slower and less responsive than windows
14:34:13  <ben_goodger> 2.6.23 and upward aren't
14:34:56  <ben_goodger> now when the memory manager is fixed, firefox will work properly ^_^
14:35:38  <Eddi|zuHause3> > uname -r
14:35:39  <Eddi|zuHause3>
14:35:47  <Eddi|zuHause3> you recommend updating then?
14:36:14  <ben_goodger> yeah...
14:37:13  <Eddi|zuHause3> hm... what makes the HD usage grow by 200MB within 3 hours of abcence
14:37:27  <ben_goodger> log spew?
14:37:37  <HMage> coffee spew?
14:37:37  <ben_goodger> torrents?
14:37:55  <Eddi|zuHause3> /home partition, torrents go on another partition
14:38:51  <DaleStan> <Phantasm^> How do I see *FULL* changelog no matter how big it is? <-- Easy: "svn log svn://" And be prepared for a multiple megabytes of output.
14:38:59  <ben_goodger> ah
14:38:59  <ben_goodger> hm
14:39:49  <Eddi|zuHause3> is there a command that lists all files modified in the last x hours?
14:40:42  <ben_goodger> Eddi|zuHause3: filesystem-specific...
14:41:00  *** dR3x4cK [~Miranda@] has joined #openttd
14:41:13  <Eddi|zuHause3> i mean like "find /home <how to check for modification time>"
14:41:34  <peter1138> Hmm, so...
14:41:49  <peter1138> -newer
14:42:33  <Phantasm^> DaleStan: I don't have svn myself, so ...
14:42:53  <Eddi|zuHause3> -ctime N
14:43:51  <DaleStan> Phantasm^: And whose fault is that?
14:44:16  <Phantasm^> DaleStan: It is svn's fault that user can't get full changelog without having some program himself.
14:44:23  *** Phantasm^ is now known as Phantasm
14:44:54  *** Dominik [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:45:11  <DaleStan> And it's K&R's fault that user can't get a executable without both a compiler and a linker?
14:45:15  <Phantasm> Or fault of the one who configured it. Not sure if svn allows it.
14:45:38  <Phantasm> ...
14:45:45  <Eddi|zuHause3> it's IRC's fault that you need a client to access it
14:46:00  <Eddi|zuHause3> it's the internets' fault that you need a browser to view it
14:46:08  <Phantasm> The problem here is: It is too damn hard to get a full changelog out of OTTD.
14:46:13  <DaleStan> It's Microsoft's fault you need a program to read word documents?
14:46:25  <HMage> it's your fault that you need a key to open the door
14:46:28  <ben_goodger> Phantasm^: install it then..?
14:46:29  <ben_goodger> Phantasm: bollocks
14:46:35  <ben_goodger> DaleStan: actually, that last one's correct
14:46:36  <Phantasm> ben_goodger: The thing is I don't want to.
14:46:49  <glx> Phantasm: the log is available on http
14:46:52  <DaleStan> And who's fault is *that*?
14:46:52  <Eddi|zuHause3> it's a matter of three clicks to install tortoise svn
14:46:53  <Phantasm> glx: Url?
14:47:07  <HMage> Phantasm: well, you can get full changelog from nightly downloads :D
14:47:09  <DaleStan>, I expect.
14:47:10  <glx> or or
14:47:10  <Belugas> don;t give him, he did n';t said "please"
14:47:13  <Eddi|zuHause3> DaleStan: whose
14:47:35  <DaleStan> ... right. I got it right the first time, at least.
14:47:36  <Phantasm> I once searched for it from OTTD's site and didn't find it. And I have twice asked for it but have never been given a way to find full changelog of svn.
14:47:51  <DaleStan> Easy: "svn log svn://" And be prepared for a multiple megabytes of output.
14:48:01  <Phantasm> glx: First one of those at least doesn't give full changelog. You only get small pieces of it.
14:48:24  <ben_goodger> DaleStan: he doesn't want to install svn, therefore he shouldn't have to and it's svn's fault it's not an http server
14:48:32  <glx> then you don't know how to click on links
14:48:36  <hylje> you can access svn through http
14:48:50  <Phantasm> glx: zip link doesn't give it.
14:49:11  <Phantasm> I did download it and I did only find changelog of beta releases (ie. it didn't contain changes after latest beta).
14:49:30  <glx> read it online
14:49:40  <Phantasm> I want it full and not some 30 entries at a time.
14:49:46  <glx>
14:49:48  <Phantasm> I want to be able to do *SEARCH* on the full log.
14:52:15  <hylje> well use svn/hg/git log then
14:52:15  <Eddi|zuHause3> tortoise has that
14:52:15  <Phantasm> And my own way of searching and not some builtin search there prolly is on top right.
14:52:15  <HMage> hylje: he wants to get a cookie without opening the jar
14:52:15  <glx> and there's a textbox for searching
14:52:15  <glx> you type the text you search for and press enter
14:52:15  <Phantasm> glx: I want to use my own search and not the builtin search. Thus I want the full changelog.
14:52:15  <hylje> then use svn log
14:52:15  <Phantasm> And I don't want to be forced to install svn to get it.
14:52:15  <ben_goodger> Phantasm: your own way of searching? do you want the browser to perform a search based on interpretive dance?
14:52:15  <hylje> there is no other way
14:52:15  <Eddi|zuHause3> that'd be a cool feature for once ;)
14:52:15  * ben_goodger wiggles hands, hoping for the wikipedia article on "laziness"... nope, didn't work.
14:52:15  <Phantasm> To start with: Getting full changelog is too hard.
14:52:15  <Belugas>
14:52:15  <ben_goodger> Belugas: indeed ^_^
14:52:15  <Eddi|zuHause3> getting the full changelog is trivially easy
14:52:15  <glx> I usually do svn log | grep "what I want" | less
14:52:15  <glx> works well
14:52:28  <HMage> glx: probably there's a problem with using command line tools
14:52:31  <Belugas> hey... a little knowledge and effort is required...
14:52:35  <ben_goodger> Eddi|zuHause3: but you have to install a client to use this protocol! it's too hard!
14:52:40  <Eddi|zuHause3> svn log | grep "what I want" | more
14:52:57  <HMage> svn log | grep "what I don't want" | less
14:53:06  <hylje> HMage: grep -i
14:53:08  <Eddi|zuHause3> forgot -v
14:53:11  <glx> I prefer less (can go up and down)
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14:53:28  <DaleStan> I remember once being told that "less is more".
14:53:29  <Eddi|zuHause3> glx: yes, but i don't want less [usually] ;=
14:53:30  <ben_goodger> Phantasm: you have reached the point where we cannot mock you more effectively than you are mocking yourself
14:53:52  <HMage> lulz
14:54:12  <HMage> that's the first time I used that word
14:54:22  <hylje> epic lulz!!!
14:55:06  <HMage> I plead the fifth! I want access to everything without any effort right now!
14:55:30  <hylje> and with the exact tool i'm proficient with
14:56:32  <Eddi|zuHause3> HMage: "the fifth [ammendment]" is the one with the right to remain silent [and that silence not be used against you]
14:56:58  <HMage> there's good things there, though, Phantasm, you can use command-line svn client which doesn't require any installation
14:57:21  <HMage> but unfortunately you need to know how to use command line
14:58:10  <Eddi|zuHause3> 5020486 .beagle/Indexes/FileSystemIndex/PrimaryIndex <- wtf?
14:58:27  <Eddi|zuHause3> what do i need beagle for anyway?
14:58:49  <peter1138> searching :D
14:59:06  <Eddi|zuHause3> i know what's on my HD ;)
15:00:38  <hylje> now you don't have to
15:01:40  <HMage> I don't know what's in my body, event. Why would I need to know what's in my PC? :D
15:07:39  <Volley> HMage: ... maybe nature should have provided the sourcecode to your DNA  ... so you could check ... and update yourself ...
15:07:39  <Volley> ... or is DNA the sourcecode? if so, then it's badly documented!
15:08:34  <Eddi|zuHause3> by the GPL definition "source code" is the represantation of the program that you prefer to make modifications to
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15:15:22  <Ammler> Now, since 0.6 has its own branch, can we apply Roujin's patch for ingame rivers to trunk?
15:16:41  <ben_goodger> rivers?
15:17:10  <Ammler> else, at least remove the client hack prevention...
15:17:17  <ben_goodger> Volley, Eddi|zuHause3: the DNA is, technically, the source code. unfortunately, the source is mostly comment lines filled with random bits and undocumented code. each program also demands its own build environment
15:18:19  <ben_goodger> *undocumented classes
15:20:39  <Eddi|zuHause3> 20080328 13:00:57.7747 32144 IndexH  WARN EX: Caught exception trying to execute Beagle.IndexHelper.RemoteIndexerExecutor.  Sending error response
15:20:39  <Eddi|zuHause3> 20080328 13:00:57.7747 32144 IndexH  WARN EX: System.IO.IOException: Disk full.
15:21:57  <ben_goodger> Eddi|zuHause3: hurrah
15:22:20  *** GoneWacko [] has quit [Quit: You just lost the game]
15:23:02  <ben_goodger> Eddi|zuHause3: delete ~/.beagle and remove beagled, beagled-helper, beagle-search, best from your startup list
15:23:20  <ben_goodger> or just uninstall beagle..
15:26:10  <Belugas> funny...  been signing in english for the last quarter.  Just signing sounds, not caring about the meaning...  and the meaning i've just discovered by reading the words
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15:26:16  <Belugas> i'm nuts
15:27:05  <ben_goodger> ?!
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15:30:15  <peter1138> Ammler: "remove the client hack prevention" ???
15:33:15  <ln> takes 31.6 seconds to compile ottd trunk.  is that a good result?
15:33:25  <Phantasm> Ok, here is some reading for you.. Read it and answer the following questions without any mocking.. OTTD website directs bug reports to forum or IRC. Say, a user finds a bug and want to help the development by reporting the bug to IRC as it is more interactive than forum. Now, the user comes to IRC and states the bug here. Then a surprice surprice he is told 'make a patch'. But let's assume the user is a windows user who isn't willing to or doesn't know how ...
15:33:30  <peter1138> Yeah, debug or release?
15:33:31  <Phantasm> ... to make the patch. Then let's assume someone in here takes a note of the bug so it might be fixed some day. Of course no-one can really give any approximation on when the bug will be fixed. So, the user wants to check at times if there has been any progress on the bug, and comes here asking about it only to get people to say 'check the changelog' and then the user goes look for changelog and can't find it. He then asks here and is told 'dl some svn prog ...
15:33:38  <Phantasm> ... and type this command'.. So, the questions.. 1) How much effort should it take for a user to report a bug? 2) How do you think users feel about reporting bugs when they are told 'go fix it yourself' ? 3) How much effor should it take for the user to be able to check if the bug has been fixed? 4) With all this lack of userfriendly and mocking attitude, do you think the user ever comes to report another bug he may find? 5) Do you want that only developers ...
15:33:44  <Phantasm> ... ever report bugs and you always treat all bug reporters as such? Don't you think it is valuable for the development of the game to get to know about the bugs?
15:33:46  <ln> Phantasm: pastebin.
15:34:00  <Eddi|zuHause3>
15:34:09  <Phantasm> I can't get it into pastebin any easier than you do.
15:34:17  <ln> peter1138: whatever a pure ./configure without parameters produces.
15:34:30  <peter1138> hmm, what system? :o
15:34:45  <ln> peter1138: my 1-day old Core2Quad 2.4 GHz
15:34:48  <peter1138> ahhhhhh
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15:35:01  <peter1138> with the appropriate make -j whatever, i take it
15:35:05  <Phantasm> I would like one OP to answer those questions. Currently peter1138 and Belugas seem to be around.
15:35:08  <ln> yeah, -j8
15:35:13  <Eddi|zuHause3> congratulations, Phantasm has earned the top spot of the brand new /ignore list, he gets a fine *plonk* medal for remembering
15:35:22  <peter1138> takes 1 minute on my athlon X2 5600
15:35:31  <peter1138> which is 2.8 GHz
15:36:18  <peter1138> Phantasm: what the hell are you actually talking abourt?
15:36:19  <peter1138> -r
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15:37:08  <Ammler> peter1138: if you would change that part:
15:37:23  <peter1138> Ammler... no
15:37:25  <Ammler> then it would be possible with pachted clients to build rivers
15:37:25  <Phantasm> peter1138: I reported a bug some months ago in here. Belugas was around at the time and after describing it to him, he did agree it is a bug. After that I have now been trying to get some information on if there is any progress and mocking is all I get.
15:37:39  <peter1138> what's the FS# of the bug?
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15:38:15  <ln> Phantasm: do you have a patch that fixes the bug?
15:38:21  <Eddi|zuHause3> bugs go to, and you automatically get an email if a bug you reported got fixed
15:38:24  <Ammler> [16:37] <peter1138> Ammler... no <-- ??
15:38:37  <Phantasm> peter1138: Belugas never told me.
15:39:02  <peter1138> so you didn't actually report it
15:39:12  <peter1138> so how are we supposed to know
15:39:15  <Phantasm> I reported the bug here in IRC as stated to.
15:39:21  <Phantasm> "Individual developers are reachable at the following addresses. Note these are not meant if you have a question about a feature, bug or want something implemented. You should direct these questions to the forums or in our IRC channel."
15:39:44  <ben_goodger_> Phantasm: that says "questions about bugs", not "reporting bugs"
15:39:51  <peter1138> Links
15:39:58  <peter1138> Flyspray bug-tracker / task manager
15:40:23  <peter1138> if you didn't report it there, then do so.
15:40:27  <Phantasm> ben_goodger_: Well, whatever. Finding the bug tracker from that website is a pain anyway.
15:40:38  <peter1138> it's on the site
15:40:55  <peter1138> it's in the topic
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15:41:35  <Zuu> " 3) How much effor should it take for the user to be able to check if the bug has been fixed?" <-- read the changelog when you upgrade. If you use windows there are tools that extract the new entries in the changelog when you update.
15:41:54  *** ben_goodger_ is now known as ben_goodger
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15:44:43  <ben_goodger> Phantasm: I hope you become less lazy by the time you're old enough to get a job. telling an employer "the keyboard is too hard to type with, so it's your fault I'm not doing my reports" isn't going to be a very good career move
15:45:19  <ben_goodger> I can imagine you driving: "why should I put it into drive? it should work out what direction I want to go by myself."
15:46:13  <Belugas> even if i agree the situation is a bit ironic, i think enough nails have been planted on pha
15:46:25  <Belugas> Phantasm 's head, already
15:46:41  <ben_goodger> very well
15:46:47  <Belugas> and i sincerely do hope he has the message now :)
15:47:20  <ben_goodger> doubt it. I've been saying it for about half an hour
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15:48:39  <Phantasm> <-- There is irclog of the day. By quick clance it goes at least to about 20:30.
15:50:11  *** Dominik [] has joined #openttd
15:50:59  <ben_goodger> ...
15:51:19  <Phantasm> Anyway, at this point I have totally given my hope on the whole OTTD project. The bug is descriped in there so do as you please with it. The initial bug description might be a bit hard to interpret, but reading the whole log will at least get the bug out of that as that at least Belugas seemed to have understood it by that time. I don't give a fuck what you do about it nor do I give a fuck about OTTD at all anymore.
15:52:13  <peter1138> Cool
15:52:13  <Phantasm> All I'm saying that if it is this hard for a user to report a bug so it gets properly handled, don't expect any user to do so, at least after first attempt.
15:52:15  * keyweed starts crying
15:52:15  <Eddi|zuHause3> yay, he finally reverted to insults ;)
15:52:17  <peter1138> Cos we don't give a fuck about you
15:52:32  <Belugas> @openttd bugs
15:52:33  <DorpsGek> Belugas: Open Bugs: 23; Not assigned: 18; Closed this week: 11; Opened this week: 12
15:52:39  * ben_goodger hums a certain biblical tune beginning with "H"
15:52:40  <Belugas> strange... 23 bugs...
15:52:46  <Belugas> really hard to reach indeed
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15:57:38  <ben_goodger> against all probability, I'm now interested to know what the actual bug was
16:01:31  *** Dr_Jekyll [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:03:12  <Eddi|zuHause3> it's not even a bug, he's whining that his industries close faster than he can service them
16:04:06  <ben_goodger> hm
16:05:33  <Belugas> basically, i think it is related to the big maps. New industries are created at the same rate on small map as on big maps
16:05:49  <ben_goodger> ah
16:05:53  *** Zavior [] has quit [Quit: ( :: NoNameScript 4.02 :: )]
16:06:03  <ben_goodger> and they close at a given rate also, I suppose.
16:06:14  <Belugas> no
16:06:41  <Belugas> they close only if they are not served, or not well enough, or if production decreases to nothing
16:06:51  <ben_goodger> well, yes
16:06:55  <Eddi|zuHause3> closing is on a per-industry rate, opening is on a per-map rate
16:07:04  <ben_goodger> Eddi|zuHause3: indeed
16:07:07  <Eddi|zuHause3> so they naturally diverge on bigger maps
16:07:13  <Belugas> but random creation is happening only once a month, and only 3% of chances, no matter what the map size is
16:07:27  *** Volley [~worf@] has joined #openttd
16:07:56  <Eddi|zuHause3> anyway, it's a feature request at best
16:08:06  <Eddi|zuHause3> should go into "game balancing"
16:08:08  <ben_goodger> so a map that starts with 1000 industries will close n% and open n per year, which could mean closing 50 and opening five, while a map that starts with 100 industries will close 5 and open five
16:08:45  <Eddi|zuHause3> yes, something like that
16:08:54  <ben_goodger> right.
16:08:58  <Belugas> yup
16:09:03  <Belugas> that's how i read it
16:09:18  <Belugas> technically, it is not a bug
16:09:23  <Belugas> as the system doe snot change
16:09:34  <ben_goodger> that sounds like a bug to me, albeit a one-liner and the most minor of minor bugs
16:09:35  <Belugas> i am more viewing it as game balancing
16:10:11  <Belugas> that might not be as simple as that.  the one liner in question may be a bit more
16:10:17  <ben_goodger> hmm
16:10:54  <Eddi|zuHause3> it's a design issue, not a one-liner
16:11:07  <ben_goodger> changing from 3% to (3%/1000 tiles) shouldn't be too difficult
16:11:11  <Belugas> design issue?  not sure
16:11:18  <ben_goodger> it's probably a lot more complex in c, though.
16:11:22  <Belugas> ben_goodger, you got it wrong
16:11:30  <Eddi|zuHause3> the "industry density" in the difficulty option should not only define the initial industry spread
16:11:46  <Eddi|zuHause3> but also balance the "fix point" reached by industry opening and closing
16:12:01  <Belugas> if you increase the percentage credited for industry creation, you reduce the possibility of random productin change
16:12:29  <Eddi|zuHause3> where this "fix point" may vary with the connectivity of the player's network
16:12:57  <Belugas> wrong again Eddi|zuHause3.  closing value doe snot exists, therefore cannot be conputed
16:13:16  <ben_goodger> mmm
16:13:42  <Eddi|zuHause3> it's all random chances, the "value" might not exist, but the stochastic calculation can be made
16:14:01  <ben_goodger> so the rate of opening industries needs to be linked to the existing industry density
16:14:02  * Belugas googles the whole sentence ;)
16:14:10  *** Singaporekid [] has quit []
16:15:07  <ben_goodger> such that the industry density is "topped up" shortly after an undersupplied industry closes
16:15:12  *** pm|work is now known as planetmaker
16:15:25  <Belugas> i disagree totally
16:15:27  *** planetmaker is now known as pm|work
16:15:31  <ben_goodger> :(
16:15:51  <Belugas> never it has been said that the nunmber of industries should remain constant
16:16:09  <ben_goodger> well, the industry density is chosen by the player, is it not?
16:16:16  <Belugas> nor that the industry density is linked to appearance eiother
16:16:27  <Belugas> yes, ben_goodger, but only for stating a game
16:16:29  <Eddi|zuHause3> no, but they will, when the chance to open and the chance to close get roughly equal
16:16:32  <Belugas> not during a game
16:16:38  *** welterde [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:16:38  <Eddi|zuHause3> it's a dynamic balance
16:16:53  <Eddi|zuHause3> the chance to open is constant
16:17:02  <Belugas> it is constant indeed
16:17:07  <Eddi|zuHause3> the chance to close drops when the number of industries drops
16:17:15  <ben_goodger> if it does not remain constant, then either the map will become grossly overpopulated with industries, or the map will become empty save for those industries the player is already serving, at which point the game becomes pointless
16:17:16  <Belugas> not at all
16:17:36  <Belugas> hem.. not at all directed to Eddi|zuHause3
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16:17:47  <ben_goodger> evidently
16:17:48  <Eddi|zuHause3> because "global close" = "number of industries" * "local close probability"
16:18:12  <hylje> can one multiply strings with each other
16:18:19  <Belugas> nope.  global close = service and decrease
16:18:22  <Eddi|zuHause3> like ben_goodger, with 1000 industries, on average 50 close, with 100, on average 5 close [numbers are made up]
16:18:32  <ben_goodger> hurrah, I'm helping
16:18:47  <ben_goodger> hylje:
16:18:49  <Eddi|zuHause3> hylje: yes.
16:19:05  <Belugas> they do close for reasons, not out of probabilty
16:19:14  <ben_goodger> hylje: though you can multiply strings by integers, it doesn't make sense to multiply characters
16:19:20  <Belugas> and the creation is totally random
16:19:50  <ben_goodger> Belugas: you need to have precisely one industry opening for every one that closes, otherwise the map becomes overpopulated or empty [as I said]
16:19:51  <Eddi|zuHause3> Belugas: yes, the reason is unserviced-ness, but still then there is a probability
16:20:21  <Belugas> ben_goodger, not at all.  stupid assumption, sorry to say
16:20:26  <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause3: do you know, whats happen with MB?
16:20:30  <Belugas> Eddi|zuHause3, totally agrreing
16:20:33  <ben_goodger> why would it not do that?
16:20:40  <Eddi|zuHause3> also, there is economy-stability setting, which opens another probability for closing of serviced industries
16:20:52  <Eddi|zuHause3> Ammler: what should i know?
16:20:56  <Belugas> because there is no link and there will ne ver be between closing and opening
16:21:16  <ben_goodger> I'm saying what it _should_ do
16:21:17  <Ammler> isn't available anymore
16:21:23  <Belugas> there never was ther notion that industries should remian constant on the map
16:21:42  <Belugas> it should not, as it doe snot make sens
16:21:43  <ben_goodger> if industries open continually the map will become overpopulated. if unserved industries close without opening new ones, the map will become empty save for those that are already served
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16:21:59  <Belugas> industries do close even if they are served
16:22:07  <Ammler> he is absent around 2 months now and you are also a german guy, so maybe you know something more :-)
16:22:17  <ben_goodger> in that case it'll become even emptier
16:22:29  <Belugas> plus, trhe industry that might be created once an month is not even garanteed to be created
16:22:48  <Eddi|zuHause3> Belugas: what i am saying is, this probability can be made adjustable, depending how the player behaves (like if unserviced industries can "expect" the player to in the future connect this industry)
16:23:22  <Belugas> Eddi|zuHause3, that is one option, but i have to admit i'm not too fund of it
16:23:29  <Belugas> i'd rather not "Guess"
16:23:58  * ben_goodger goes for dinner
16:24:21  <Belugas> the way i see it would be to only loop a x number of times the lines 2219 to 2225 in industry_cmd.cpp
16:24:56  <Belugas> like if the map is 2 times bigger then 256*256, loop 2 times
16:25:03  <Eddi|zuHause3> you mean increase the chance of creation
16:25:08  <Belugas> no
16:25:42  <Belugas> if yu increase the chance, you decrease the random production chances
16:25:52  <Eddi|zuHause3> maybe i talk too mathematically ;)
16:25:54  <Belugas> so you are thus debalancing the game
16:26:09  <Belugas> and me too code wise :D
16:26:20  <Eddi|zuHause3> if you throw the dice twice, you get twice the chance to have a 6
16:26:47  <Eddi|zuHause3> while the chance to get a 6 with one throw does not change
16:26:53  <Belugas> true
16:27:14  <Belugas> that is whyt i  want to loop instrad of increasing the chance
16:27:21  <Eddi|zuHause3> so on average you get twice the amount of industries
16:27:31  <Belugas> yup
16:27:34  <Belugas> that's the idea
16:28:01  <Belugas> i'm just not sure if it's a good solution at all
16:28:11  <Belugas> but it's the only one i see so far
16:28:32  <Belugas> and... let say that i have another project going on
16:28:42  <Eddi|zuHause3> so, the "fix point", when the creation chance and the closing chance is equal, is twice as high as well
16:28:56  <Eddi|zuHause3> this immediately raises two questions
16:29:12  <Belugas> hu???
16:29:32  <Belugas> the closing part of the monthly loop will not change
16:29:33  <Eddi|zuHause3> when is the map "twice as big"? (2*256)x(256) or (2*256)x(2*256)?
16:29:51  <Belugas> when the NUMBER of tiles doubles
16:30:06  <Eddi|zuHause3> that is not necessarily what the user wants
16:30:14  <Belugas> so more 2*(256*256)
16:30:21  <Eddi|zuHause3> some people want bigger maps to have more space inbetween
16:30:47  <Eddi|zuHause3> in this case the second one would be more appropriate
16:31:12  <Eddi|zuHause3> second question: should this random chance be affected by the difficulty setting?
16:31:48  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12466 /trunk/src/ (openttd.h order.h order_cmd.cpp): -Codechange: move DestinationID to a more logical location.
16:32:39  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12467 /trunk/ (7 files in 4 dirs): -Codechange: move DepotID to a more logical location.
16:33:31  <Belugas> 2 times was an example, Eddi|zuHause3  and no, the random is not going to be affected
16:33:39  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12468 /trunk/ (8 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: move some type related stuff from station.h (and openttd.h) to station_type.h.
16:33:52  <Eddi|zuHause3> i would say it makes sense to do so
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16:34:57  <Phantasm> Wow, someone actually read the bug (or whatever one calls it) report from the log url. I still have a feeling that no-one will add a bug report to flyspray and it is forgotten when the conversation ends.
16:35:02  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12469 /trunk/ (11 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: split type related stuff from group.h (and openttd.h) to group_type.h.
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16:36:44  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12470 /trunk/ (9 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: split order related types from order.h (and openttd.h) to order_type.h.
16:37:13  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12471 /trunk/src/ (openttd.h signs.h): -Codechange: move SignID to a more logical location.
16:38:29  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12472 /trunk/src/ (openttd.h texteff.hpp vehicle_func.h vehicle_gui.h): -Codechange: remove unneeded declaration of ViewPort and DrawPixelInfo.
16:39:11  *** anhedral is now known as dih
16:39:31  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12473 /trunk/src/ (engine.h openttd.h): -Codechange: move EngineList to a more logical location.
16:41:23  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12474 /trunk/ (7 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: split type related stuff from waypoints from waypoint.h (and openttd.h) to waypoint_type.h.
16:44:35  <Eddi|zuHause3> Multikill!
16:44:35  <Eddi|zuHause3> Ownage!
16:45:31  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12475 /trunk/src/ (news_gui.cpp order_type.h): -Codechange: cleanup coding style in news_gui.cpp.
16:49:32  *** mode/#openttd [+b *!*] by peter1138
16:49:32  *** Phantasm was kicked from #openttd by peter1138 [foad]
16:49:58  *** mode/#openttd [-b *!*] by peter1138
16:51:10  <Volley> Eddi|zuHause3: hmm - seems you need a patch that plays the old unreal tournament "Multikill", "Killing Spree", ... sounds when you let some trains or road vehicles crash into each other ...
16:51:49  <Eddi|zuHause3> i was talking about the commits
16:52:08  <hylje> that could be good
16:52:11  <Volley> oh ... ok :)
16:55:24  <Sacro> FIRST BLOOD
16:55:34  <peter1138> HEAD SHOT
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16:57:19  <Eddi|zuHause3> you killed him!
16:57:29  <Eddi|zuHause3> you bastard!
16:57:34  <hylje> M-M-MONSTER KILL
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17:05:31  <Sacro> A man walks into a pet shop, puts a bomb on the counter and says, "You've got one minute to get out of here before the place blows!"
17:05:37  <Sacro> A Tortoise in the back shouts, "You bastard"
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17:08:55  <Digitalfox> lol
17:09:45  <Sacro> pffft
17:09:47  <Sacro> ricer :p
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17:13:32  <Sacro> lo bob27
17:13:47  <bob27> hi
17:17:30  <Sacro> has anybody noticed ?
17:17:59  <bob27> ouch
17:18:16  <bob27> the gaphics look good, not the design
17:18:18  <hylje> how realistic
17:19:44  <Ammler> hoizontal track isn't nice
17:20:35  <bob27> oh, i was talking about what it looks like
17:22:26  <ben_goodger> looks good
17:24:37  <bob27> yes, i think it looks good too , just look at the symbol it makes.....
17:25:35  <ben_goodger> a pleasing geometric shape
17:26:12  <bob27> .....................................................
17:26:18  <ben_goodger> well, it is
17:26:34  <bob27> not what it represents :(
17:26:58  <ben_goodger> it turns 90 degrees to the right every few tiles
17:27:19  <ben_goodger> if it turns to the left instead, it's perfectly harmless, to the extent that a road pattern is harmful
17:27:36  <bob27> i guess you're right, never mind :)
17:28:04  <ben_goodger> and if you make it turn 0.1 degree every 0.1 tiles, it's a spiral. geometry is fun :)
17:29:05  <bob27> no it isn't! the geometery book I had said "for the enjoyment and challenge" I can tell you, that class is not enjoyable!
17:29:12  <ben_goodger> heh
17:29:36  <ben_goodger> I haven't done any such thing yet, we're only up to computer science ^_^
17:29:52  <ben_goodger> hurrah for the first-fit decreasing algorithm! XD
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17:34:09  <Sacro>
17:37:39  <Prof_Frink> Sacro: That hurts my brain
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17:38:13  <Eddi|zuHause3>
17:38:16  <Sacro> Prof_Frink: it hurts more that some stations are right
17:38:24  <Sacro> Euston i belive is correct
17:38:34  <Prof_Frink> Aye, 'tis
17:38:47  <Sacro> and is farringdon?
17:39:01  <Sacro> or maybe barbican
17:40:16  <Eddi|zuHause3> Sacro: there's two paddingtons
17:40:53  <Sacro> Eddi|zuHause3: so there is
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17:41:01  <Sacro> one must be northbound and one southbound
17:41:33  <Prof_Frink> Lots of the stations are right.
17:41:51  <Sacro> barens court is
17:42:01  <Sacro> i think blackfriers and mansion hosue are too
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17:42:40  <Eddi|zuHause3> what's the sense of the victoria line when it does not pass victoria?
17:43:17  <Prof_Frink> Eddi|zuHause3: Umm...
17:43:30  <Prof_Frink> Sacro: While you're in that corner, Temple.
17:43:37  *** anhedral is now known as dih
17:43:59  <dih> there is no spoon
17:44:08  <Prof_Frink> Yes there is.
17:44:13  <Sacro> Eddi|zuHause3: why not
17:44:20  <Sacro> there was 2 Victorias
17:45:33  <Eddi|zuHause3> ?
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17:52:10  * Prof_Frink banishes Sacro to Terminal 5
17:52:34  <Prof_Frink> (why aren't you in t'other channel?)
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17:57:39  <Digitalfox> Sacro in that map where is Big Ben?
17:57:50  <Sacro> Digitalfox: god knows
17:57:59  <Sacro> Prof_Frink: personal reasons
17:58:50  <Digitalfox> found it westminster
18:01:04  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12476 /trunk/ (11 files in 4 dirs): -Codechange: split type engine related types from engine.h (and openttd.h) to engine_type.h.
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18:06:31  <dih> Rubidium has been busy today :-P
18:08:48  <Digitalfox> dih let the man have his fun :)
18:08:56  *** ben_goodger [] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat]
18:08:59  <dih> let me have mine!
18:09:05  <dih> nofair
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18:09:56  <Digitalfox> Want my fun? Convertiing 60GB of 291 files from ogm to avi x264...
18:11:33  <bob27> lol
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18:12:05  <Wolf01> hello
18:12:35  <Prof_Frink> Digitalfox: Surely that's just `for i in *; do mencoder blahblahblah $i; done` and go to bed
18:12:59  <Digitalfox> no, one by hand in command line with ogmdemuxer
18:13:30  <Digitalfox> every ogm has 2 audio tracks so i have to manually select the one i want to pass for avi
18:14:07  <ln> i'm pretty sure an avi can contain multiple audio tracks too.
18:14:15  <Digitalfox> There's just no good tools for ogm.. Must tools have been abandoned.. But i love this TV Show so...
18:14:31  <Digitalfox> avidemux crashes when opeing this files..
18:14:38  <bob27> still it must be fun :P
18:14:48  <Digitalfox> virtualdub + mod don'tt open.. etc...
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18:14:58  <bob27> oh jeez
18:15:04  <glx> ffmpeg can do that too
18:15:17  <Eddi|zuHause3> you're making things more difficult than they have to be
18:15:43  <bob27> manual labor is good
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18:16:57  <Digitalfox> So let me explain again.. I have 291 files in OGM format with dual sound ( Jap and English ) and separated sub *.ssa.. And i want to creat Avi with codec x264 files with just jap sound and with the sub already encoded in it.. Any automatic tool for that?
18:17:44  <Digitalfox> Because the most popular ones don't open or crash
18:19:09  <ben_goodger> ffmpeg is your man
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18:19:16  <ben_goodger> ...most likely.
18:19:23  <Eddi|zuHause3> when mplayer can play it, mencoder can transform it
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18:20:01  <Eddi|zuHause3> although i use avidemux for my conversion purposes
18:20:39  <Digitalfox> Well what i'm doing is using OGMdemuxer to separate the OGM in 3 files.. The video and the 2 tracks.. Then i use avidemux and chose the video file and the track i want.. I also add the ssa sub and convert to a AVI file..
18:20:41  <Sacro> ffmpeg, mencoder, vlc?
18:20:43  <Sacro> cat?
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18:21:29  <Digitalfox> It's working just takes time.. :(
18:21:32  <Eddi|zuHause3> you can call avidemux with parameters from the command line
18:21:50  <Digitalfox> Eddi|zuHause3 avidemux crashes when opening any of this OGM files
18:22:37  <Eddi|zuHause3> so?
18:22:52  <Digitalfox> so if it crashes how can i use avidemux?
18:23:08  <Eddi|zuHause3> forget it...
18:23:51  <Digitalfox> But thanks for the help guys :)
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18:39:44  <fjb> Hello
18:41:38  <bob27> hi
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18:43:15  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12477 /trunk/src/aircraft_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#1883]: timetable times for aircraft were always doubled.
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18:56:11  * fjb hides from the secret CIA planes.
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19:02:10  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12478 /branches/0.6/ (11 files in 8 dirs): (log message trimmed)
19:02:10  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: [0.6] -Backport from trunk (12477, 12453, 12448, 12443, 12439, 12417):
19:02:10  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - Fix: Timetable times for aircraft were always doubled [FS#1883] (r12477)
19:02:10  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - Fix: Remove broken endian-dependent code and unnecessary rgb to bgr swapping [FS#1880] (r12453)
19:02:10  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - Change: Unify RPM spec files (r12448)
19:02:12  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - Add: OpenTTD's version to the config file to 'ease' getting the correct version on bugreports (r12443)
19:02:12  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - Fix: Do not 'disable' the drawing of autorail overlays when the tile is 'error'-marked (red pulsating selection) [FS#1871] (r12439)
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19:17:11  <bob27> ooo thanks!
19:17:42  * Rubidium thinks he's missing something
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19:37:25  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r12479 /trunk/src/industry_gui.cpp: -Codechange [FS#1723]: Simplify the method used to resize the industry view window. The window is now shown the correct size so the resize button is also removed.
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19:58:26  <jez9999> hello
20:09:23  <ln> you again
20:10:25  <peter1138> INTERGALACTIC
20:11:42  <fjb> Spaceports?
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20:14:35  <peter1138> PLANETARY
20:14:42  <Belugas> naaa.. Beasty Boys
20:15:11  <bob27> Another Dimension
20:16:07  <jez9999> Is there a way to automatically group vehicles whose orders are shared?
20:16:32  <peter1138> Only by using the item in the 'manage' menu
20:16:42  <jez9999> that's not automatic
20:17:02  <Rubidium> why would you need to do it automatically?
20:17:05  <peter1138> that's why i said 'only', heh
20:17:54  <jez9999> so you can quickly view groups of trains with shared orders without going to the trouble of manually grouping them?
20:18:15  <jez9999> actually it might be useful to identify whether you forgot to share one or two trains' orders, as they would be ungrouped
20:20:46  <Belugas> Button [Play it For Me, I am an AI]
20:22:24  <jez9999> heh
20:22:37  <jez9999> well i always hear arguments against convenience like that
20:22:45  <jez9999> i guess i just like to create tidy, smart networks quickly
20:22:51  <jez9999> any help tools i can get are good
20:25:56  * Belugas thinks the fun is to actually use the system, and not see it doing stuff on itself.
20:26:07  <Belugas> granted, trains are fun watching,
20:26:18  <Belugas> but tracks layout are even more fun to do
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20:26:34  <Belugas> i guess it's just a personnal preference///
20:28:46  <Eddi|zuHause3> ANNIHILATION!
20:32:58  <Sacro> TOTAL?
20:33:05  * peter1138 Phuns
20:33:36  *** glx [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
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20:36:15  <peter1138> ARGH
20:36:17  <peter1138> HICCOUGHS
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20:52:44  <dih> lol @
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20:52:52  <dih> Is debian__ stupid or just asking too many questions
20:52:58  <dih> Bjarni!
20:53:00  <dih> :-)
20:53:08  <jez9999> you could argue that shared orders are 'cheating' or taking too much work away
20:53:21  <dih> ?
20:53:23  <Rubidium> dih: you once said that you wanted much questions
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20:53:37  <dih> did i?
20:54:00  <Bjarni> didn't you?
20:54:09  *** lolman [] has joined #openttd
20:54:15  <dih> i at least dont recall that
20:54:17  <ln> Bjarni!
20:54:23  *** Slowpoke [] has quit []
20:54:25  <dih> ln: you're late
20:54:33  <ln> dih: no, Bjarni was early.
20:54:40  <dih> lol
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20:55:17  <dih> chuck norris (while fishing) "i have no idea who your father is, but as long as i am fishing here, you aint gonna work on the water!"
20:55:28  <dih> *walk
20:55:32  <henkie> jez9999, you could, but i would not agree
20:55:50  <jez9999> nor would i
20:56:08  <henkie> must fun of openttd is just watching your trains move
20:56:14  <jez9999> but belugas et al seem to think that unless you're actually sitting in that train driving it, you're not playing properly because it's too easy
20:56:39  <jez9999> Bjarni: thanks for the extra code
20:56:51  <jez9999> fixed many of the problems; there is still one significant issue
20:56:54  <peter1138> yeah, there's a patch for that
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20:57:42  <henkie> more advanced rules would be nice
20:58:00  <henkie> like when to stop at a station, or maybe more advanced signals
20:58:01  * dih rules
20:58:06  <dih> i think that is pretty advanced
20:58:12  <henkie> :)
20:58:35  <henkie> or maybe i am just using my signals wrong
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20:58:55  <henkie> still not 100% clear when to use what kind of signal
20:59:27  <Bjarni> <jez9999> fixed many of the problems; there is still one significant issue <-- usually such a statement is followed by an explanation of the issue
20:59:39  <Eddi|zuHause3> try yapp, henkie
20:59:40  <Bjarni> right now I have no idea of what your problem is
20:59:48  <Bjarni> jez9999: what is your problem? :)
21:00:11  <jez9999> Bjarni: when you're calling CMD_DEPOT_MASS_AUTOREPLACE without DC_EXEC as a flag, with an all-or-nothing flag, and you don't have the money to upgrade the trains, the command fails.  it needs to always succeed and return the predicted cost, no matter how much cash you have.
21:00:21  <henkie> Eddi|zuHause3, what do you mean?
21:00:35  <henkie> yet another ....  ?
21:00:38  <Bjarni> hmm
21:00:47  <Eddi|zuHause3> yapp is an improved PBS signal patch
21:01:05  <Eddi|zuHause3> most of the time you need only one signal type
21:01:11  <Bjarni> I will have to think about that one but I'm not sure if it's possible
21:01:38  <Bjarni> jez9999: but why do you want to know the price of a task that fails? :)
21:01:56  <jez9999> someone shift-ctrl-drags; only depots with trains in are selected
21:02:08  <jez9999> i want to return the predicted cost of upgrading all depots, no matter how much cash they have
21:02:29  <Bjarni> I will look into it
21:02:34  <Bjarni> when I get time :p
21:02:36  <jez9999> cheers
21:02:46  <jez9999> at the moment, if your command fails, i add £100 million onto the cost :-)
21:03:44  <henkie> may i suggest something else?  for every ctrl-command or crtl-shift-command to create an extra button in the GUI, so ppl know the feature exists?
21:04:41  <jez9999> yeah, when i go away and come back to playing OpenTTD i ALWAYS forget about ctrl-click to share orders
21:04:43  <jez9999> without fail
21:04:52  * fjb suggest to implement shunting, so people can play Towers of Hanoy with trains.
21:05:04  <henkie> shortcuts are really nice, but they shouldnt be the only way to access it
21:05:12  <jez9999> i think im going to implement an auto-group-vehicles-with-shared-options patch
21:05:12  <jez9999> :-)
21:05:16  <henkie> just my 2,5 cents
21:05:49  <henkie> or just upgrade the in-game help
21:05:50  <Rubidium> henkie: any idea how much buttons that would yield?
21:06:11  <henkie> Rubidium, maybe some modifier which acts like a ctrl or shift?
21:06:21  <henkie> like the remove-button
21:06:41  <henkie> which is also accessible with the ctrl (which i only found out most recently)
21:07:19  <Rubidium> but not always :(
21:08:05  <henkie> true
21:08:34  *** Sacro [~Sacro@adsl-87-102-119-5.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
21:08:49  * fjb ctrl-clicks jez9999. Indeed it doesn't always work.
21:09:38  *** Sacro` [~Sacro@adsl-87-102-119-5.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:09:49  <henkie> for example the ctrl-drag signals auto-complete a whole lot of rail, i bet not everybody is even aware of it
21:10:02  <henkie> auto-completes
21:10:09  <jez9999> it does?
21:10:10  <jez9999> heh
21:10:39  <henkie> it does :)
21:10:40  <jez9999> maybe a 'shortcut keys' button somewhere prominent that pops up a dialog of ctrl keys
21:10:46  * Rubidium wonders whether a multipage tooltip for the signal thingy is what people want
21:11:11  <Slowpoke> there is a wiki page for those shortcuts
21:11:17  <mrfrenzy> I want it to not default to semaphores
21:11:18  <mrfrenzy> I hate em
21:11:18  <jez9999> ive never really understood why you have electric AND semaphore signals.
21:11:23  * fjb juggest a RTFM tooltip.
21:11:24  <jez9999> shouldnt that be a newGRF thing?
21:11:55  <henkie> Rubidium, that's not what i said  :)
21:12:09  <henkie> just some hint the option is available
21:12:15  <Slowpoke> mrfrenzy, you can set the year when semaphores disapper in patch-settings to something like 1900 so they won't bother you anymore I think
21:12:25  <henkie> but anyway, it is just a suggestion
21:12:40  <jez9999> Slowpoke: great idea :-)
21:12:42  <jez9999> i'll do that
21:12:43  <Rubidium> maybe it's better to state where the CTRL/SHIFT have no function
21:12:54  <Rubidium> and that's probably only the pause button
21:13:16  <jez9999> Slowpoke: well i see an 'automatically build semaphores before' option
21:13:24  <jez9999> but not a 'get rid of the damn things'
21:13:42  <jez9999> thing is, they have a literally identical function to electric signals, so i don't see the point in using different graphics
21:14:11  <henkie> jez9999, some ppl like the retro feeling  :)
21:14:29  <jez9999> then they can install a 'retro' newGRF
21:14:49  <jez9999> but the default only signals should be electric, semaphores seem like an anomoly as you're trying to minimize the cruft in the truk
21:14:51  <jez9999> trunk
21:16:00  <peter1138> who is?
21:16:09  <Slowpoke> so if you set the "automatically build before"-year to something like 1900 they don't shou up anyways aren't they?
21:16:29  <henkie> jez9999, just adjust the year until they are built
21:16:31  <henkie> no harm
21:16:45  <jez9999> henkie: yeah but you can still accidentally build em with ctrl
21:16:46  <henkie> +as default
21:16:48  <jez9999> which is irritating :-)
21:17:07  <mrfrenzy> I guess if you have a mao that's before electricity got introduced, you'd want semaphores
21:18:04  <henkie> jez9999, true, but lets face it, they are not really THAT annoying  :)
21:18:13  <mrfrenzy> they are
21:18:13  <henkie> at least i know the feature is there  :)
21:18:16  <mrfrenzy> ugly
21:18:49  * fjb thinks that the default electric signals are really ugly.
21:19:16  <henkie> fjb, yeah, and to tiny
21:19:30  <henkie> one ting Locomotion did better
21:19:39  <henkie> too
21:20:01  <henkie> whole week of work fried my brain
21:20:49  <henkie> the arrows on the rail track where helpful
21:20:53  <henkie> were*
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21:23:49  <jez9999> henkie: erm, i just ctrl-clicked some signals and dragged; it doesnt auto-build the track
21:24:23  <henkie> jez9999, no, but it auto builds the signals on the track
21:25:03  <jez9999> erm
21:25:07  <jez9999> you dont need to hold ctrl for that
21:25:28  <henkie> jez9999, ?
21:25:44  <henkie> i think so
21:26:16  <jez9999> nope
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21:26:26  <jez9999> you just click on an existing signal, and drag along the track
21:27:08  <Rubidium> jez9999: now, on a empty bit of track, click an existing signal, press ctrl and drag one tile into the direction you want it to go to
21:27:17  <henkie> jez9999, i think you misunderstand me, ctrl-drag a signal is way better :)
21:27:26  <jez9999> hmm
21:27:30  <jez9999> how do u make desert towns grow?
21:27:31  <Rubidium> oh noes... it goes around corners
21:27:35  <jez9999> im feeding this one's water tower
21:27:38  <Rubidium> food + water
21:27:42  <jez9999> food, huh?  hmm
21:27:48  <jez9999> damn those people need everything
21:28:49  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: glx * r12480 /trunk/projects/ (4 files): -Change: enable and show asserts in crash.log for MSVC releases by default
21:28:56  <henkie> one more suggestion, regarding the distribution of newgrf files in a multiplayer game. Have the creators of the newgrf register it with the master server, which sets a "allowed to distribute flag", and have it automaticly transferred
21:30:01  <glx> henkie: already suggested, it's still won't happen
21:30:14  <henkie> dont know how feasible this is
21:30:16  <Rubidium> most newgrf authors do not bother about OpenTTD
21:30:23  <dih> henkie: check the openttdcoop grfpack :-)
21:30:26  <Rubidium> therefor they do not bother about registering
21:30:42  <henkie> glx, well i had to try  :)
21:30:46  <Rubidium> therefor only a few percent of the GRFs could possibly be autodownloaded
21:30:51  <dih> we bother about openttd and we bother about newgrf's
21:31:00  <Rubidium> which makes the feature as useless as the current system of not downloading
21:31:22  <Rubidium> furthermore the downloading would make the masterserver more complete and more prone to errors
21:31:28  <dih> and we are working towards certain goals (such as updating grf's)
21:31:33  <Rubidium> s/complete/complex/
21:31:56  <dih> Rubidium: downloading from the master server?
21:32:00  <dih> why would you do that?
21:32:08  <Rubidium> that's what henkie proposes
21:32:16  <dih> oh
21:32:20  <dih> hehe
21:32:22  <henkie> Rubidium, no i didnt
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21:32:29  <henkie> but i understand
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21:32:46  <henkie> just send the hash to the server
21:33:18  <dih> henkie
21:33:26  <henkie> but if it was already proposed and shot down, i understand  :)
21:33:32  <Rubidium> henkie: if the masterserver wouldn't distribute it, then there is absolutely no reason to 'register' the newgrfs to the masterserver
21:33:45  <dih> let the ottd server have a config option, whith a web address where grf's can be found that are currently in use
21:34:05  <dih> i.e. the same way shoot 'em ups specify a web url for downloading maps :-)
21:34:10  <dih> and use wget :-P
21:34:36  <henkie> Rubidium, sure it would, but i dont wanna chase ghosts and drop the subject now
21:34:39  <Ammler> dih: don't forget to implement the readme viewer :P
21:34:45  <dih> hehe
21:34:50  <henkie> dih, would also be fine by me
21:34:51  <dih> you dont need to 'view' the readme
21:35:01  <dih> you must just download the readme with the grf
21:35:09  <dih> as openttd can handle tar's
21:35:20  <dih> you can download a bundle and be happy :-)
21:35:56  <dih> henkie: probably every month?
21:36:29  <henkie> dih, i am not following?
21:36:44  <dih> that this 'feature' is 'proposed' :-P
21:37:03  <henkie> dih, hehe, sorry about that  :)
21:37:16  <dih> no need to appologize to me :-P
21:37:28  <dih> i aint a dev :-D
21:37:28  <henkie> :)
21:37:39  <dih> i dont have to listen to it that often :-P
21:37:46  <henkie> dont wanna sound ingrateful, still the best game around for me now
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21:38:22  <henkie> for something that was originally created +10 years ago, is kinda cool   :)
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21:43:03  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12481 /branches/0.6/projects/ (4 files): [0.6] -Backport r12480 from trunk (default enabling of assertions).
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21:46:32  <Wolf01> michi_cc, I have a savegame where appear the "train is lost message" each time a train parts from a station, but it is made with yapp version 4
21:49:16  <dih> Rubidium: something that just crossed my mind
21:49:24  <jez9999> ctrl-clicking the signals goes around track corners?
21:49:29  <jez9999> cant seem to get that to work at all...
21:49:35  <dih> servers that have the generation seed stored in the config file will as a first game always use that seed
21:49:55  <dih> which basically means you serve the same map at the restart start of the server
21:49:56  <Wolf01> jez9999, ctrl+drag
21:50:10  <jez9999> tried it
21:50:19  <jez9999> just builds two-way regular signals along the track
21:50:46  <Wolf01> you should drag an existent signal
21:51:05  <Wolf01> first place the one way in the right direction, then drag
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21:52:22  <dih> Rubidium: what i want to say is - not forcing the generation seed to be present in the config file would be a nice thing, but if present use it!
21:52:38  <dih> or have a generation seed command line parameter
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21:53:41  <jez9999> Wolf01: yeah, that works.... without ctrl
21:53:45  * Rubidium proposes the command line parameter
21:53:53  <Rubidium> and... it's implemented
21:54:55  <Wolf01> and with ctrl it fills the entire track until the next signal/junction, so all the bends in the interval should be signalled
21:55:10  <dih> oh - sinse when?
21:55:13  <dih> i must have missed it
21:55:22  <dih> thanks :-P
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21:55:37  <Rubidium> r5946-ish
21:55:46  <dih> gnah :-P
21:56:07  <dih> ok - then on the note of useing the config reload option :-D
21:56:23  <dih> if the seed is in the file....
21:56:33  * dih expects to be slapped :-P
21:57:08  * Wolf01 slaps dih with an:
21:57:12  <Wolf01> /¯¯¯¯|_|¯¯¯¯|_|¯¯¯¯|_|¯¯¯¯|_|¯¯¯¯\
21:57:16  <dih> LOL
21:57:20  <Wolf01> asiastar!
21:57:59  <dih> i assume you had that in your clipboard just waiting for the opportune moment ^^
21:58:18  *** Frostregen [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:58:24  <Wolf01> I filled my irc contextual menu with these nice things
21:58:38  <ln> hmm, what was the key for underlining?
21:58:40  <glx> you're silly ;)
21:58:44  *** Frostregen_ is now known as Frostregen
21:58:45  <Wolf01> ctrtl+u
21:58:56  <dih> i dont have that key
21:58:59  <dih> ctrtl
21:59:06  <Wolf01> lol
21:59:12  <jez9999> ohh i see about the ctrl-click signal thing
21:59:12  <jez9999> heh
21:59:15  <jez9999> did not know thatr
22:00:10  <fjb> dih: Use the Störung key.
22:01:02  * dih has neither umlaut keys nor the 'Störung key' - thankfully he can copy & paste
22:01:51  <Wolf01> ok, the copy key without c :P
22:02:05  <Wolf01> (not the "opy")
22:02:47  <dih> lol
22:02:49  <dih> opy... um
22:03:45  <Wolf01> do you have the "any" key?
22:03:59  <Bjarni> I lack that one
22:04:01  <dih> i have an apple key :-P
22:04:03  <Wolf01> I have it and the "Panic" key too :D
22:04:14  <Bjarni> I better call some hotline and ask what I can use instead
22:04:26  <dih> and if i press the apple key + v it still does not paste text as it should in openttd
22:04:31  <fjb> Don't panic!
22:05:15  <Bjarni> at one time a professor told at a lecture that a professor had a red panic button on his computer and when he made a loop that wouldn't break then he could press it like crazy
22:05:32  <dih> lol
22:05:51  *** Forked [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:05:54  * dih pokes Bjarni with the os x command+v bug in openttd
22:05:54  <Bjarni> the computer wouldn't know this as the button wasn't connected but it would appear that you should feel a whole lot better if you press it when you lose control
22:06:02  <Wolf01> use autohotkey and bind an unused key to ctrl+break :P
22:06:24  <Wolf01> like the ' key
22:06:36  <Wolf01> or the shift key
22:06:39  <dih> how about ctrtl+u ?
22:06:44  *** Slowpoke [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
22:06:54  <Wolf01> that was a typo
22:06:56  <Wolf01> :P
22:07:00  *** Slowpoke [] has joined #openttd
22:07:02  <dih> whats your point?
22:07:03  <dih> :-P
22:07:10  <Wolf01> this .
22:07:15  <dih> .
22:07:18  <dih> mine is nicer
22:07:25  <Wolf01> .
22:07:34  <dih> still - mine owns brains and looks :-D
22:07:57  <Wolf01> ·
22:08:04  <Bjarni> good point
22:08:48  <ln> test
22:08:51  <ln> damn
22:08:51  <dih> mach mal nen punkt
22:09:18  <ln> test2
22:09:22  <dih> lol
22:09:28  <dih> ctrtl key not found?
22:09:43  <glx> works for me
22:10:06  <ln> ah, now i found it.
22:10:52  <glx> bold underlined
22:11:08  <dih> √
22:11:19  <Wolf01> italic doesn't work, ctrl+i is a tab
22:11:30  <glx> ctrl-i is icon for me
22:11:42  <dih> try ctrtl+i
22:11:45  *** Forked [] has joined #openttd
22:11:48  <glx> cafe
22:12:02  <dih> heh
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22:15:37  *** thgerg1 [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
22:15:57  <dih> 
22:17:01  <ln> a realistic Pendolino® train: /¯¯¯¯|_|¯¯¯¯|_|¯¯¯¯|_|¯¯¯¯|_|¯¯¯¯|_|¯¯¯¯\_|===¯¯=|
22:17:21  <dih> realistic...!
22:17:54  <Sacro> ln: err...
22:18:25  <glx> looks like asiastar :)
22:19:06  <Bjarni> looks like a 6 unit emu being pulled by a diesel (due to lack of catenary)
22:19:06  <Sacro> finland finland finland
22:19:23  <ln> Bjarni: correct!
22:20:04  <Bjarni> I know stuff like that
22:20:32  <Sacro> yes
22:20:38  <Bjarni> at one time I got a phonecall because I had to guess what train was at a particular station at that time
22:21:19  <Bjarni> then I made a statement about an emu that didn't work with the voltage in the catenary at that station and the guy went "damn you guessed it"
22:21:25  *** thgergo [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:21:40  <Bjarni> turned out that it was a brand new emu on the way from the factory and it was pulled by a diesel
22:25:12  <Wolf01> 'night
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22:59:58  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: bjarni * r12482 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp:
22:59:58  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Fix: [build train] we don't need to have a depot in order to just check the price of a rail vehicle so don't check for compatible rails on the tile either
22:59:58  <CIA-1> OpenTTD:  also wagons will only need tracks they can drive on in order to be build so there is no reason to check for power in the depot
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23:30:33  <jez9999> so, i'm supplying both water and food to a desert town...
23:30:39  <jez9999> it isn't growing, not even by 1 population.
23:30:42  <jez9999> is there a reason for this?@
23:31:54  <ln> maybe it's a boring place to live?
23:32:12  <ln> in
23:33:18  <jez9999> lol
23:33:30  <jez9999> hmm, EVERY town should expand if you give it food and water.
23:33:35  <Bjarni> maybe it's too hot
23:33:45  <jez9999> i went to loads of effort to setup that too
23:33:51  <jez9999> even funded a £1 million food processing plant
23:33:56  <ln> fund a new casino.
23:34:16  <Bjarni> then you need some indians for it though
23:34:21  <jez9999> does it have something to do ith their rating of you?
23:34:31  <jez9999> if they rate you as excellent or something they're more likely to expand?
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23:56:08  <ln> kevin johnson
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