Log for #openttd on 10th April 2008:
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02:10:49  <CIA-3> OpenTTD: belugas * r12645 /trunk/src/airport_gui.cpp: -Codechange: a bit of code-style cleanup
02:14:26  <CIA-3> OpenTTD: belugas * r12646 /trunk/src/airport_gui.cpp: -Codechange: another run of code-style cleanup
02:23:50  <CIA-3> OpenTTD: belugas * r12647 /trunk/src/airport_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Ooops... Too fast on the job... forgot to indent 3 lines
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02:54:18  <Louise_T> Hi all
02:55:30  <Louise_T> anyone here?
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05:56:33  <Eddi|zuHause3> ... not typically at 5AM
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08:29:34  * Celestar ponders
08:30:18  * Rubidium too
08:30:37  <Celestar> ESA is recruiting new astronauts. Should I apply or not?
08:30:46  <peter1138> dooo eeeet
08:30:47  <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12648 /trunk/src/ (50 files in 3 dirs):
08:30:47  <CIA-3> OpenTTD: -Feature: allow four different non-stop types in a single game instead of two. The "TTDP compatible order" setting now only sets the default behaviour of new trains.
08:30:47  <CIA-3> OpenTTD: -Feature: allow three different load type in a single game instead of two. One can choose full load all and full load any instead of full load being governed by the "full load any" patch setting.
08:31:41  <ln> Celestar: sure, be the first one to run OTTD in space.
08:32:29  <Celestar> peter1138: I'm really really really thinking of doing so
08:33:03  <Rubidium> just do it
08:33:15  <Rubidium> you can always fail a test when you don't want it anymore
08:33:18  <Celestar> \o/ Rubidium that'S a feature which I have long tried to commit, but never really finished.
08:33:20  <peter1138> heh
08:33:21  <Celestar> Rubidium: true
08:33:29  <peter1138> damn it, my home adsl's gone tits up
08:33:34  <peter1138> so much for using the fast pc :(
08:35:26  <Celestar> Rubidium: I probably will apply
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08:37:16  <Trond> nice new load type settings Rubidium! Thanks :)
08:37:49  <Trond> quick question: is there any way to decrease the savegame version in a saved game?
08:37:55  <peter1138> no
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08:38:02  <Trond> dang
08:38:23  <Celestar> Trond: how should that work? :)
08:38:35  <Trond> I have no idea Celestar
08:38:51  <Trond> I have a savegame that due to a patch 'bug' is saveg ver. 99 :(
08:38:51  <Celestar> I have. it doesn't
08:38:57  <Celestar> patch bug?
08:39:07  <Celestar> what ver should it be?
08:39:18  <Trond> gonozal set savegame ver to 99 in one of his daylenght patches
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08:39:31  <Celestar> Trond: well, you can TRY to manually modify the savegame.
08:39:37  <Trond> he nicreased trunk by 10 I believe
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08:39:51  <Trond> well... I did search for 99 in that savegame, and got a few hits
08:39:55  <peter1138> so just play it with his patch, heh
08:39:59  <Trond> increased*
08:40:12  <Trond> its old patch, I want new features on this savegame too...
08:40:15  <Celestar> Trond: well, did you unzip it first? :) and the savegame revision must be pretty early in the savegame
08:40:39  <Trond> unzip? are savegames saved as a compressed file?
08:40:44  <Celestar> yes
08:40:46  <Celestar> normally
08:40:50  <Celestar> using zlib
08:40:56  <Ammller> is there somewhere a documentation about savegame format?
08:41:14  <peter1138> yes, src/*.cpp
08:41:19  <Celestar> Ammller: there's a bit in the source files :)
08:41:19  <Trond> okey, I will have to look into that Celestar, that could be usefull info
08:41:20  <Ammller> yeah, I feard that
08:41:28  <Celestar> Ammller: some comments and stuff
08:41:38  <peter1138> it's fairly simple
08:41:42  <Celestar> Ammller: maybe have a look at .. (when was the last time we updated that?)
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08:42:01  <peter1138> yesterday
08:42:11  <Celestar> :)
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08:45:48  * Celestar just wondered why is irssi said "Unknown command: /loot" :P
08:46:41  <Celestar> I'm not quite sure what I even wanted to enter :P
08:50:45  <Rubidium> ESA
08:51:16  <Celestar> yeah /loot esa
08:51:38  <Celestar> You looted: 1 Ariane 5 Solid Rocket Booster ...
08:52:09  <Celestar> 1 F-1 rocket engine
08:52:27  <Celestar> mount the F-1 engine on your car :P
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08:53:02  <Celestar> "No officer, I'm pretty sure this vehicle can handle 40 million HP" :P
08:53:02  <HMage> ЌяЌя. всеЌ прОвет.
08:53:13  <Celestar> hm .. cyrillic
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08:54:39  <Celestar> he ... ESA astronauts all learn russian :>
08:54:54  <ln> Celestar: russian is not that hard.
08:55:05  <ln> easier grammar than in german...
08:55:07  <Celestar> I understand about 5% :P
08:58:05  <shodan> hah what game is that you are talking about?
08:58:21  <Celestar> I'm just being stupid. Too much wine yesterday
08:58:27  <shodan> ahh
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09:08:48  <Roujin> I've had a funny idea earlier...
09:09:10  <Roujin> i thought about making a jump 'n run style ottd scenario :D
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09:10:06  <Roujin> where you have to navigate a road vehicle through a route full of obstacles (maglev level crossing...) to its destination, only using its start/stop and turn button
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09:17:34  <Celestar> :P
09:17:59  <peter1138>
09:18:05  <peter1138> ^ best ever use of an eeepc
09:20:12  <Gekz> I cant beat that
09:20:15  <Gekz> and i'm using one
09:20:15  <Gekz> lol
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10:02:37  <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12649 /trunk/src/ (lang/english.txt order_gui.cpp):
10:02:37  <CIA-3> OpenTTD: -Fix: refit orders not being shown.
10:02:37  <CIA-3> OpenTTD: -Fix: unusable non-stop orders shown for waypoints and depots.
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10:18:15  <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12650 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 2 dirs):
10:18:15  <CIA-3> OpenTTD: -Feature: ability to force a vehicle to not load at a station.
10:18:15  <CIA-3> OpenTTD: -Feature: ability to force a vehicle to not unload at a station.
10:19:19  <Roujin> oh, something new
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10:19:47  <Rubidium> Roujin: you've missed the best part of it already ;)
10:19:59  <Roujin> *goes read svn log
10:21:06  <Roujin> do the buttons cycle through the different options now?
10:24:10  <Roujin> I'll just go and try it out... nice work!
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10:41:47  <Roujin> hmm there are some odd situations with the new options
10:41:57  <Celestar> :)
10:42:04  <Celestar> Rubidium: someone's not happy :P
10:42:28  <Roujin> I'm happy
10:42:36  <Roujin> I just want to help sorting out bugs
10:44:10  <Roujin> I even went away from my own code for that :P
10:47:06  <pm|work> hey, that are nifty features wrt to load orders :)
10:47:11  <Roujin> for example, selecting "no loading" as load option and "Unload all" as unload option, it results in "transfer and take all"
10:47:41  <Roujin> no, results in "transfer and take cargo" - sorry
10:49:19  <Roujin> also, minor graphical glitches with the dropdown boxes
10:49:57  <Roujin> x size seems a bit too low, maybe forgot about the border? that's 2-3 px or so
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10:55:18  <Roujin> Rubidium: i'll just post it on bugspray, ok?
10:56:50  <Maedhros> Roujin: he's not here at the moment, but flyspray is the best choice anyway :)
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11:08:34  <peter1138> dw->widget[0].right = width + 1;
11:08:36  <peter1138> should be
11:08:43  <peter1138> dw->widget[0].right = width - 1;
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11:29:22  <King-J> Is it usual for trams to get stuck? I've got one which is stuck on a bit of track constantly doing a 'turn left' animation
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11:30:34  <[1]Roujin> does the tram track end there?
11:30:52  <[1]Roujin> then it can't go on nor turn
11:31:07  <KingJ> No, it's connected to where it wants to turn
11:31:12  <KingJ> but not where it's coming from
11:31:26  <KingJ> And can't send to depot, turn around etc
11:31:53  <elmex> i'm gone for some months and this is what happens: someone implements PBS ;-/
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11:34:00  <[1]Roujin> did you change any newGRFs during game?
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11:34:56  <[1]Roujin> because this can lead to all kinds of strange behavior
11:35:06  <KingJ> Nope
11:35:11  <KingJ> No reset option is there?
11:37:14  <Celestar> your best bet is the console :P
11:38:22  <[1]Roujin> well, if you can reproduce it, file a bug report on flyspray. preferably with a savegame shortly before it happens attached..
11:39:25  <KingJ> This is the first time i've seen it happen, but if it occours again, I will
11:39:33  <KingJ> Celestar, which console command in particular?
11:39:34  <Celestar> don't you have autosaves?
11:39:40  <Celestar> KingJ: I'm just looking
11:39:49  <Celestar> didn'T find anything useful at the moment
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11:44:11  <Celestar> sorry KingJ no usable option found :(
11:45:25  <KingJ> Damn. Thanks anyway
11:48:00  <Trond> KingJ: did you try to remove the track it is supposed to enter, and then adding it again? sometimes it can help I think
11:48:49  <KingJ> Oh, one question. What do you think the ideal train length is for building a huge network? I currently use 10 with signals every 6, but corners are a nightmare.
11:49:01  <KingJ> Trond: Just tried that. Didn't fix it
11:50:17  <[1]Roujin> KingJ: what do you mean with corners are a nightmare?
11:50:33  <Trond> I have a weakness for small things, so I use trainlenght 10 as you do... works fine for me... (10 as in 5 tiles)
11:50:40  <Maedhros> KingJ: have you tried manually reversing the tram?
11:51:37  <KingJ> Maedhros: Clicking the reverse arrow on the veichle info/viewport window? Yes, dosen't change it
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11:54:18  <[1]Roujin> something else about the new orders...
11:54:29  <Celestar> @openttd bugs
11:54:30  <DorpsGek> Celestar: Open Bugs: 33; Not assigned: 26; Closed this week: 7; Opened this week: 10
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11:54:47  <[1]Roujin> shouldn't "go via ..." type orders have loading/unloading options disabled?
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11:55:21  <[1]Roujin> i mean, when going via a station (that means don't stop there), it's pretty useless to set any loading/unloading options
11:56:34  <Trond> OMG I managed to fix the diff for distant joint stations myself *shock*
11:56:46  <Celestar> OvO
11:57:20  <Trond> it even compiles AND work after starting the game :D
11:57:41  * Celestar puts his fingers in his ears *boom*
11:58:00  <[1]Roujin> congratulations, you're a hacker now.
11:58:04  <[1]Roujin> oO
11:58:06  <Trond> lol
11:58:15  <Celestar> <= this is a true hacker :P
11:58:26  <Trond> thats what maxxis said a few years back when I was hooked on sims ;)
11:58:49  <Trond> lol Celestar
11:59:02  <Forked> meep
11:59:44  <CIA-3> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r12651 /trunk/src/widgets/dropdown.cpp: -Fix (r12644) [FS#1915]: Dropdown widget width should be one pixel less than window width, not one more.
11:59:55  <[1]Roujin> next thing, transfer should be in unload options...
12:00:23  <[1]Roujin> peter: you're committing this without being able to test it yourself? wow, that's trusting :P
12:01:03  <[1]Roujin> you never know, I might have included a viscious virus in that diff?
12:01:13  <[1]Roujin> ^^
12:01:34  <peter1138> you might've done, but i didn't need a diff to see the change i'd already proposed...
12:03:06  <[1]Roujin> but maybe this little change will... erm... turn computers all over the world that are running openTTD into evil monsters, destroying cities and eating humans and stuff...
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12:05:58  <[1]Roujin> you never know before testing...
12:05:58  <[1]Roujin> trust me, I've seen that already. It happens. Regulary.
12:05:58  <peter1138> :D
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12:06:31  <[1]Roujin> now, more seriously, do you agree with me that transfer should be grouped into the unloading orders? does anyone actually care?
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12:07:11  <[1]Roujin> I mean, there's no unload type that can actually be combined with transfer
12:07:48  <[1]Roujin> the old "transfer + unload = transfer and leave empty" can now be (more logically) archieved with "transfer + no loading"
12:10:51  <SmatZ> I think I agree
12:12:11  <SmatZ> one remaining thing
12:12:17  <SmatZ> it would be nice for transfers
12:12:27  <SmatZ> if vehicle wouldn't load cargo it unloaded
12:12:53  <SmatZ> so a cargopacket would remember the last vehicle transfererd that packet
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12:13:00  <SmatZ> if it doesn't work this way already
12:13:16  <[1]Roujin> i don't think so...
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12:13:42  <[1]Roujin> but in most cases you can use the transfer and leave empty combination... no?
12:14:24  <SmatZ> no for pax networks
12:14:38  <pm|work> Roujin: so far. But SmatZ says it :) terminals for pax...
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12:15:06  <[1]Roujin> mmh you have a point there..
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12:16:04  <pm|work> is there an option to only load and keep the current cargo (w/o unloading first)?
12:16:10  <[1]Roujin> now yes.
12:16:23  <pm|work> nice. Good for Bus circular routes...
12:16:24  <[1]Roujin> you can choose "no unload" now
12:16:40  <Ammller> wow :-)
12:17:02  <Ammller> maybe also a skip stop at 100% ?
12:17:02  <[1]Roujin> in combination with any of "normal load", "full load" and "full load any cargo"
12:17:56  <SmatZ> Ammller: conditions are not possible (yet)
12:18:03  <[1]Roujin> haven't tested that, but I doubt that it would skip the stop automatically...
12:19:03  <Ammller> hmm, do you talk about trunk?
12:19:18  <[1]Roujin> yes, today's commits
12:20:28  <[1]Roujin> so you'll need to check out svn for that, or wait till tonight's nightly ;)
12:24:41  <pm|work> Ammller: along with autoupdate and this quick pace of dev it might even be an idea to daily update the ps server :)
12:24:56  <Ammller> :-)
12:25:59  <pm|work> at 4am CET or so...
12:27:52  <Ammller> update is a thing of 5 mins, so it could also be done right after nightlies are created
12:28:24  <Ammller> if we would take the nightly build for server itself, it would be done in 30 secs
12:28:25  <pm|work> yes. But that's the time many people are connected. In the eye of "continuous service" 4am is better.
12:28:58  <Ammller> and if the "autopudate" breaks?
12:29:08  <Ammller> we ring you out?
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12:29:31  <pm|work> :O we have it fall back to the previous version
12:29:57  <pm|work> but certainly that's a point...
12:30:37  <Ammller> currently, there is no admin outside europe timezone
12:30:49  <Celestar> hm ...
12:31:17  <pm|work> hm, yeah.
12:32:26  <SmatZ> hm
12:33:02  <pm|work> hm... currently I don't plan to re-locate to a place outside Europe...
12:33:22  <SmatZ> :)
12:34:03  <peter1138> argh
12:34:19  <pm|work> I buy a "b" for peter.
12:35:43  * hylje steals the bee
12:36:02  * pm|work sends an angry bee towards hylje
12:36:24  * Celestar ponders whether he should restart his cbh efforts
12:36:26  * hylje cyber-squats it
12:36:40  <hylje> Celestar: no we will never need such buggery!
12:36:46  <Celestar> :P
12:36:55  * Celestar pokes hylje
12:36:58  * pm|work wonders what "cbh" might stand for...
12:37:04  <Celestar> custombridgeheads
12:37:50  * pm|work hands Celestar a cup of coffee and strings a carrot to a string...
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12:38:18  * hylje ponders whether a cup of coffee on a stick would be more effective
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12:38:27  * pm|work thinks that smiling at Celestar might require him to change sex to work...
12:38:40  <pm|work> lol
12:41:11  * Celestar wonders what you're all doing
12:41:18  * pm|work abandons the idea with the stick and just keeps the carrot.
12:41:24  * pm|work tracks particles
12:41:39  <Celestar> pm|work: explain ...
12:41:56  <pm|work> carrot or particle?
12:42:00  <Celestar> particle
12:42:41  <pm|work> oh, take a few hundred images with white dots (imaged particles). Try to obtain their trajectories while there are hundrets of particles on each image...
12:42:48  <Celestar> PIV ...
12:42:55  <pm|work> sort-of.
12:43:09  <Celestar> sort-of PIV?
12:43:11  <pm|work> but I'm interested in the particles themselves.
12:43:14  <Celestar> I see
12:43:16  <Celestar> what do you do?
12:43:37  <pm|work> astrophysics is the short answer.
12:43:42  <Celestar> cool
12:43:49  * Celestar wants to do that as well ;)
12:43:54  <Celestar> where are you at?
12:44:01  <pm|work> Braunschweig, DE
12:44:05  <Celestar> ah
12:44:15  <Celestar> Garching, DE here ;)
12:44:31  <pm|work> we're doing research on the first stages of planet formation --> small particles clustering :)
12:44:38  <Celestar> yeah
12:44:40  <pm|work> ah... what do you do there?
12:44:45  <Celestar> try to do a PhD
12:44:52  <pm|work> well... me, too :)
12:45:33  <Celestar> Soyuz TMA-12 has only 300m to go to docking \o/
12:46:02  <pm|work> Garching has also many astrophysics institutes...
12:46:18  <Celestar> yeah. I'm considering applying for a job there.
12:46:26  <Celestar> but I didn't study physics
12:46:58  <Celestar> :o ... 10 more planets found since I last checked
12:47:05  <pm|work> well... they can make good use of engineers as well :)
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12:47:26  <Celestar> pm|work: as long as I don't have to touch Fortran
12:47:35  <pm|work> Celestar: I'd expect the number to rise even more steeply once the space borne missions churn out data...
12:47:40  <Celestar> WTF? Is the JPL doing an April's fools?
12:47:47  <pm|work> urgs. I don't at least.
12:47:52  <Celestar> pm|work: Kepler at least ....
12:48:01  <Celestar> <= check this, pm|work
12:48:32  <pm|work> Yeah. My usual reference is
12:48:51  <Celestar> yeah but it's less pretty :P
12:49:07  <Celestar> Soyuz is go for docking
12:49:30  <Celestar> oh ... discovered by transit... nice.
12:50:46  <pm|work> :) Yeah. That's what the Corot mission is going to do: transits. Lots of transits...
12:51:05  <Celestar> pm|work: please tell me. From a stability point of view, are Hot Jupiters a likely thing to form?
12:51:05  <pm|work> They're just holding back their data... kind of embargo :S
12:51:18  <pm|work> obviously :)
12:51:26  <Celestar> well, they're easy to detect ...
12:51:36  <pm|work> until they were discovered no-one would have predicted them.
12:51:48  <Celestar> that's what I have read from the literature as well
12:52:09  <Celestar> your models need adjusting :P
12:52:31  <pm|work> The crucial point not yet decided how it works is: how are they stopped from falling into their star. They cannot be formed that far inward.
12:52:45  <Celestar> yeah
12:52:50  <Celestar> 40m to go
12:52:56  <pm|work> ?
12:53:01  <Celestar> for the Soyuz till docking.
12:53:05  <Celestar> new ISS crew arriving today
12:53:26  <pm|work> aye :) You got to do anything with it?
12:53:35  <Celestar> I really hope the Darwin or TPF missions get their go-ahead soon
12:53:48  <Celestar> not directly. except that NASA TV is the TV channel I watch most
12:53:53  <Celestar> because I'm a space-nut
12:53:57  <Celestar> and an airplane-nut
12:54:00  <pm|work> :D
12:54:06  <Celestar> I don't feel like staying on the ground :P
12:54:26  <pm|work> The funny thing: military has the most advanced tracking algorithms. But you don't get hold of them :S
12:54:36  <Celestar> yeah
12:54:47  <Celestar> the OWL would have been of some help too
12:54:50  <pm|work> --> military air space control and automatic air craft recoginition
12:54:52  <Celestar> but it got cancelled :S
12:55:05  <pm|work> It got re-named. ELT
12:55:11  <Celestar> and smaller
12:55:15  <pm|work> yeah.
12:55:27  <Celestar> are 40m enough for direct planet imaging?
12:55:57  <pm|work> Depends upon distance to star and distance star-planet and absolute magnitude of star and size of planet
12:56:01  <Celestar> we need a proper telescope on the moon.
12:56:25  <Celestar> I'm still amazed how the Soyuz docking system works.
12:56:34  <Celestar> totally autonomous if need be.
12:56:43  <pm|work> yeah... quite a nice tech
12:56:55  <Celestar> the ATV is basically the only other vehicle who can do it... and that's a week old :P
12:56:56  <pm|work> Russians build robust
12:57:05  <Celestar> Soyuz is OLD
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12:57:32  <pm|work> yes... and proven space-worthy :)
12:57:39  <Celestar> 5m
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12:57:48  <Celestar> contact
12:57:52  <Celestar> capture
12:57:54  <Celestar> \o/
12:57:59  <pm|work> proven concept is so important for space tech... it's really difficult to get things qualified...
12:58:28  <Celestar> "There are two problems in spaceflight: Gravitation and paperwork. We can lick gravity, but the paperwork is overwhelming"
12:58:47  <Celestar> Wernher von Braun
12:58:54  <pm|work> Don't remind me :S
12:59:11  <pm|work> Got a report to write... - and it's only planning phase.
13:00:08  <Celestar> I've a draft paper to finish till Tuesday
13:00:17  <Celestar> and currently, I have zip
13:00:29  <Celestar> zero, nada, nothing, niente
13:00:35  <Celestar> I have results tho :P
13:00:39  <pm|work> :D
13:00:54  <Celestar> I just need to write about 8 pages of text :P
13:00:57  <pm|work> Then the rest is just low-brain work :D
13:01:13  <Celestar> the usual yada-yada and brown-nosing people who are important in the business (references)
13:01:31  * Celestar hates this
13:01:34  <pm|work> laber-rhabarber :).
13:01:38  * pm|work hates that, too
13:01:47  *** pm|work is now known as planetmaker
13:01:54  <Celestar> no one reads that anyway :)
13:02:15  <planetmaker> Important are two things: abstract and summary.
13:02:30  <Celestar> 1) read abstract, 2) look at figures, 3) add to references
13:02:36  <planetmaker> lol
13:03:17  <Celestar> I have my headings already however :P
13:04:22  <Celestar> there is quite some traffic going on at the ISS recently.
13:05:07  <Celestar> Atlantis, Progress 18, ATV, Endeavour, TMA-12, Discovery coming soon... it really begins to become a lively place
13:05:10  * Celestar likes that
13:05:31  * Celestar finds a doctor for his Medical Class 2
13:05:33  * planetmaker likes that too. Space: the final frontier.
13:05:51  <planetmaker> Medical Class 2?
13:05:53  * Celestar knows about 90% of all Star Trek Eps except ST:Enterprise
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13:06:07  <Celestar> yeah, cuz I'm considering applying to ESA for the astronaut training
13:06:17  * planetmaker knows basically all TNG episodes...
13:06:28  <Celestar> the next screening takes place in May and will be the last one till at LEAST 2017/2018
13:06:32  <planetmaker> Celestar: do so :). Training centre is in cologne
13:06:38  <Celestar> yeah.
13:06:45  <Celestar> there's some stuff in Oberpfaffenhofen as well
13:06:50  <Celestar> plus the Col-CC :)
13:07:12  <planetmaker> Yeah, but Oberpfaffenhofen is IIRC mostly ground control
13:07:18  <Celestar> correct
13:08:07  <Celestar> the dilemma is, being a space nut, you basically have to pray for McCain to win the elections :S
13:08:20  <planetmaker> Though Oberpfaffenhofen is DLR while ESA's control is near Darmstatt, I think
13:08:30  <planetmaker> uh, you think so?
13:08:37  <Celestar> yeah
13:09:04  <Celestar> because both Obama and Clinton have basically said to axe NASA's budget considerably
13:09:23  <planetmaker> hm... :(
13:09:32  <planetmaker> good for earth, but bad for space?
13:09:40  <Celestar> bad for space is bad for earth
13:09:55  <planetmaker> oh, well. I guess there can be some kind of trade-off.
13:10:33  * planetmaker thinks that mankind is made to extend it's reach. And as earth is now completely occupied...
13:10:53  <Celestar> well, leaving the western world without a means of brining a single person to space is NOT an acceptable trade-off imho.
13:11:04  <Celestar> and the shuttles will go offline in less than 36 months.
13:11:27  <Celestar> We in Europe have everything we need for manned spaceflight. We just don't do it :S
13:11:39  <planetmaker> ah, I think 48. Nevertheless. Small
13:12:09  <planetmaker> ESA's budget is small compared to NASA
13:12:38  <Celestar> planetmaker: currently the last shuttle mission is planned for March 18, 2010. That's less than 24 months away. There's an optional one in April 2010.
13:12:42  <Celestar> and that'S it
13:13:00  <planetmaker> And especially hampering is the equi-partition principle: whichever country pais x% has to get x% of the money spent. Really usefull...
13:13:47  <planetmaker> Hm, I heard somewhere an extension to 2012 for the shuttle. But alas, no source at my hands right now
13:13:52  <Celestar> ESA has the Ariane 5, which is man-ratable with very little effort and the ATV which is man-rated. What we need is a Launch Escape System which is old technology and a return capsule which is as old technology
13:14:14  <Celestar> The extension has been cancelled to get Orion up no later than 2014, 2013 if possible.
13:14:40  <Celestar> planetmaker: do you know the book "Entering Space" by Bob Zubrin.
13:14:42  <Celestar> ?
13:14:55  <planetmaker> sorry, don't know it.
13:15:09  <Celestar> do yourself a favor and order it. It's great reading
13:15:33  <planetmaker> :) I add it to my "to buy books"-list.
13:15:35  <Celestar>
13:16:12  <Celestar> I'Ve read it about 3 times in the path 3 months :P
13:16:32  <Celestar> so the ESA could have a manned space program for less than 2 billion.
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13:16:49  <planetmaker> I doubt 2 billion would do it.
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13:17:05  <Celestar> planetmaker: most of the work is done. it's called ATV
13:17:18  <planetmaker> Even though the concept is clear, it would need to be planned, built, tested and qualified before.
13:17:29  <Celestar> it is qualified :)
13:17:37  <Celestar> that's the nice thing
13:17:40  <planetmaker> I know the ATV. Last time it was still at estec ...
13:18:05  <planetmaker> And they were... having troubles with their cables... :S
13:18:16  <Celestar> yeah .. they've learnt for Airbus apparently :P
13:18:17  <planetmaker> But it's 6 month ago.
13:18:31  <Celestar> no matter ... we spend 10 billion a year for windmills in Germany alone
13:19:42  <planetmaker> I don't mind that. But subsidies for digging for coal or for leaving farm land unsused...
13:20:06  <Celestar> well, you can find plenty of example in Europe where money is wasted
13:20:19  <Celestar> putting this into a man-rated launch vehicle would be more benefical
13:22:07  <planetmaker> yeah. Full ACK
13:22:13  <Celestar> :)
13:25:06  * planetmaker reccomends that you apply for the medical :)
13:25:31  * planetmaker also thinks that an engineering, medical of science background with PhD will help
13:26:02  <Celestar> Aerospace Engineer
13:26:09  <Celestar> doing my PhD
13:26:13  <planetmaker> Fair enough, I say :)
13:26:50  <Celestar> yeah, only my optics is on the Borderline of the Medical Class 2
13:27:32  <planetmaker> uh... what does it say?
13:27:50  <Celestar> -8 max
13:27:57  <planetmaker> ?
13:28:07  <Celestar> diopters
13:28:34  <Celestar> I have -7.75
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13:30:17  <Celestar> planetmaker: if possible, I'll apply. They only take 8 out of around 20.000 anyways
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13:30:44  <planetmaker> uh... well. That's it. It's anyway in for some fun, if they'll have you around at least for the initial tests.
13:30:57  <Celestar> yeah
13:31:03  <Celestar> Centrifuge :P
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13:31:22  <planetmaker> Yeah. Possibly also reduced-pressure chamber. That's funny...
13:31:29  <Celestar> did you do it?
13:31:36  <planetmaker> You really start to do funny things...
13:31:42  <Celestar> ...
13:31:44  <planetmaker> Had to do it once
13:31:53  <Celestar> I do funny things without being in a reduced-pressure chamber :P
13:31:54  <planetmaker> to get permission for parabolic flights
13:32:12  <planetmaker> Celestar: but in that chamber you do it w/o realizing :)
13:32:18  <Celestar> yeah :)
13:32:28  <Celestar> a colluege of mine is just doing parabolic flights in BOD
13:32:39  <planetmaker> yeah. One of mine, too :)
13:32:44  <Celestar> he :)
13:32:56  <Celestar> I helped him code C :)
13:33:04  <planetmaker> It's great fun.
13:33:16  <planetmaker> We run labview :D
13:33:53  <Celestar> yeah he does quite a bit of Labview as well
13:34:23  <Celestar> rofl
13:34:26  <Celestar> russians ...
13:34:38  <Celestar> "We are not building the international space station for tourists" :P
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13:34:46  <planetmaker> lol!
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13:36:28  <Celestar> hmm this ATV is really big a vehicle... about as large as the Apollo CSM
13:36:35  <Celestar> not quite as heavy
13:37:08  <Celestar> (less Delta-V so less fuel)
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13:37:26  <planetmaker> yep. Something like 4m diameter with 6 height?
13:37:38  <Celestar> yeah. pretty much as large as columbus
13:38:05  <Celestar> no bigger. sorry
13:38:15  <Celestar> 4.5m diameter and 10m long
13:38:35  <Celestar> <= nice image
13:39:31  <Celestar> the SPS on the Apollo looks too large :P
13:39:40  <Celestar> (the nozzle that is)
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13:39:50  <planetmaker> oh, right. Was just recalling from when I saw it. In a big integration hall it looks small(er) :P
13:40:02  <Celestar> well, yeah
13:40:09  <Celestar> compared to an A380 :)
13:40:24  <planetmaker> :D
13:40:36  * Celestar wants to see the Ares V fly
13:40:38  <Celestar> soon!
13:41:27  <Celestar> it's really a bigass launcher
13:42:43  <planetmaker> yeah! And I've gotta go to Speyer to see once the Buran which they recently aquired...
13:43:17  <Celestar> yeah, but it's still en-route isn't it?
13:43:42  * planetmaker is called for a cake :) So cu later, I guess :)
13:43:53  <orudge> bring some back for the rest of us
13:44:08  <planetmaker> Celestar: I think it should have arrived...
13:44:11  <Belugas> better been called for a cake than a kick
13:44:18  <planetmaker> I'll try to beam over some cake, though :)
13:44:22  <planetmaker> :P
13:44:24  * orudge calls Belugas for a kick
13:45:06  <Belugas> heheh
13:45:17  <Belugas> want a kick fight maaaaan ?
13:45:18  <Belugas> ;)
13:46:58  <orudge> well, not relaly.
13:47:00  <orudge> *really
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14:05:00  <dragonhorseboy> hey
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14:40:25  <elmex> wow, leveling under things works nearly everywhere, thats reallly great, and yapp, and all, and awww...
14:40:51  <Belugas> awww?  sounds like a nice feature...
14:40:57  <Belugas> what's it do?
14:41:31  <hylje> cats
14:42:30  <Belugas> Create A Town Subsidy ?
14:42:53  <hylje> all your towns are belong to us
14:44:02  <elmex> :)
14:49:30  <Belugas> no towns belong to nobody!
14:49:33  <Belugas> INSANITY
14:49:51  <Belugas> Capitalistic dreams of World Domination!!
14:49:55  <Belugas> BACK OFF!!!
14:50:34  * Belugas wonders if "capitalistic" is a real word ...
14:52:39  <orudge> sure it is
14:52:40  <orudge> I think
14:54:36  <[1]Roujin> how can i directly initialize Points?
14:55:09  <[1]Roujin> something like Point(1, 1) ?
14:55:26  <hylje> you're so spoiled by python!
14:55:28  <hylje> :-)
14:55:51  <[1]Roujin> i'm not oO
14:56:03  <[1]Roujin> i don't know python :P
14:56:22  <hylje> well you just uttered the exact way of initializing any objects in there
15:00:25  <Celestar> Point A = {1,1}; ?
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15:01:18  <[1]Roujin> thanks Celestar, that's what I was looking for...
15:01:36  *** Arie- [] has joined #openttd
15:01:38  <[1]Roujin> used wrong braces ><
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15:14:41  <Eddi|zuHause2> <Celestar> because both Obama and Clinton have basically said to axe NASA's budget considerably <- it's not like the president has THAT much influence on the budget anyway
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15:41:02  <Eddi|zuHause2> "Wenn ein Gesetz mit Geld zu tun hat, muss der Entwurf [im ReprÀsentantenhaus] seinen Ursprung haben. [...] Wir halten fest: Wenn der Senat oder gar der PrÀsident von sich aus anfangen Ìber Geld reden, kann man das getrost ignorieren."
15:41:18  <Eddi|zuHause2> (
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16:03:34  <Belugas> rgarde, j'comprends rien de ta patente, Eddi|zuHause2.  Rien pantoute
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16:04:00  <Eddi|zuHause2> lo siento.
16:04:04  <Eddi|zuHause2> :p
16:05:55  <Eddi|zuHause2> Belugas: it's a quote to support my previous statement, it basically says "any law regarding money has to origin in the house of representatives, if the senate or the president start talking about money, you can ignore that"
16:07:04  <Belugas> hhaaaaa.... hoooo....
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16:07:15  <Belugas> lo comprendo
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17:20:04  <Wolf01> hello
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17:24:13  <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12652 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: rework the order GUI a little more to make it a little more clear that 'transfer' is just an unload type.
17:24:43  <SpComb> <-- heh, that's the source code of by /sbin/init
17:25:03  * SpComb is running openttd (and nothing else, and I mean nothing else, openttd is running as pid=1) inside a vserver
17:25:51  <Progman> literaly dedicated server ;)
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17:27:49  <peter1138> pre-setup network? :o
17:28:13  <SpComb> yeah, it runs on top of the same kernel as the host machine
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17:30:50  <SpComb> <-- fs-tree
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17:53:00  <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12653 /trunk/src/order_gui.cpp: -Codechange: disable load/unload dropdowns when there is a 'via' non-stop order to emphasize that loading/unloading will not be done.
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18:01:01  <Patrick`> is there a channel specifically for openttd multiplayer games?
18:01:23  <Belugas> only one i know would be the openttdcoop
18:04:50  <Patrick`> actually, dihedral's server looks pretty good
18:05:07  <Patrick`> noooooooooo! ut's the wrong climate!
18:10:14  <SpComb> hmm... it seems openttd forks on startup
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18:21:30  <Belugas> i hate forks
18:21:36  <Belugas> i'd rather use spoons
18:22:12  <bowman> spoon()
18:24:17  <KingJ> How resource intensive is the Win OpenTTD dedi server in terms of CPU/RAM/Net Usage?
18:26:49  <Belugas> same as regular game, iirc
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18:32:58  <Diadem> Quick quiz question: What is the optimal distance to transport coal with an Ginzu A4. Profit wise
18:33:33  <ln> 210 × 297 mm
18:34:10  <Belugas> Whooouu... a quizz...  ho.. i
18:34:15  <Belugas> m so excited...
18:34:20  <Belugas> hem hem hem...
18:34:24  <Belugas> 256?
18:34:38  <[1]Roujin> I'd say preferably a distance where a coal mine is at one end and a power plant at the other end.
18:34:55  <[1]Roujin> everything else would be less profitable...
18:35:05  <Diadem> hehe
18:35:18  <Diadem> Nope, more than 256
18:35:22  * Belugas thinks [1]Roujin wanted to write "map" but did not!
18:35:37  <Diadem> assume a completely straight line, and indeed a coal mine at one end an a power plant at another
18:35:40  <Diadem> no bumps along the route
18:35:51  <Belugas> ho... don't let me die of curiosity!!!! THE ANSWER THE ANSWER!!!!
18:36:05  <Diadem> About 1400 tiles
18:36:12  * [1]Roujin is not sure what Belugas is talking about oO
18:36:18  <hylje> Diadem: AS LONG AS YOU CAN AFFORD! MWAHAHAHA!!
18:36:54  * Belugas may have wrongfully understood [1]Roujin's post ;)
18:37:08  <Diadem> :)
18:37:27  <Diadem> Well prices go up linearly with distance but they go down faster than linearly with tranport time
18:37:30  <Diadem> so there should be an optimal distance
18:37:42  <Ammler> [1]Roujin: New patch idea for you, something like a "same year repeater" or time stopper ;-)
18:37:49  <Diadem> After a certain distance time penalties become so harsh that extra distance doesn't help anymore
18:38:49  <[1]Roujin> except that the time penalty stops at some point completely and from then on profit raises again until infinity *cough*
18:39:29  <[1]Roujin> at least that's what someone else found out... somewhere in the development section he tried fixing that somehow...
18:39:52  <Diadem> well
18:40:01  <[1]Roujin> ah, that's what i meant
18:40:11  <Diadem> the maximum penalty according to the wiki is 88%
18:40:31  <Diadem> taht's so harsh that it's not worth it trying to beat it with huge distance
18:41:32  <Diadem> I don't know exactly when it's reached. But clearly not yet with a 1400 tile route with the worst train in the set
18:42:00  <Diadem> to make more profit with a longer route at maximum penalty you'd need a 6000 or so tile route. Impossible :)
18:43:12  <[1]Roujin> throw in huge maps patch, make a map with biggest size, build a line from one edge of the map to the other and wait some years (possible real time, not game time ;)) - kaCHING! :P
18:43:58  <Patrick`> Roujin, I did that
18:44:06  <Patrick`> with 64 x 65536 it takes about 4 years
18:44:11  <Patrick`> for a monorail
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18:44:18  <Patrick`> er, maglev
18:44:23  <Diadem> lol
18:44:33  <Diadem> and what was the payment?
18:45:13  <Patrick`> not that much
18:45:15  <Patrick`> under a million
18:45:22  <Patrick`> 3 or 400k
18:45:33  <Patrick`> when I'd usually scoop 100k for a 1024 tile
18:45:41  <Diadem> what goods and what train lenght?
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18:45:47  <Patrick`> coal, 8 wagons
18:45:55  <Patrick`> that patch does go all the way up to a million tiles long
18:45:56  <Diadem> Hmmm
18:46:05  <Patrick`> but the map generation takes about an hour
18:46:10  <Patrick`> and uses 1.4 gig of ram
18:46:18  <Diadem> I make 400K on a 1000 tile route with 12 steel wagons. With trains doing 160kph
18:46:24  <Patrick`> on 65536 it took me over a minute just to scroll to the end
18:46:29  <Patrick`> maybe it was 500k
18:46:39  <Patrick`> the time was so high
18:46:50  <Diadem> So basicly not worth it beating time penalty
18:46:55  <Patrick`> problem is the game never got rebalanced for huge maps
18:47:06  <Diadem> luckily it's very lentient. You can easily take half a year to transport stuff
18:47:15  <Patrick`> yeah
18:47:43  <Diadem> So we can safely say "longer is better unless you play with maps over 5000 tiles long" :)
18:47:58  <Patrick`> ye.
18:48:07  <Patrick`> on a "max" sized map, you're fine
18:48:09  <Diadem> but who really wants such big maps?
18:48:29  <Diadem> I'm playing on a 1024x1024 map, I've been spending AGES on the game now and only hooked up 1/6th of all industries or something
18:48:48  <bowman> for multiplayer you may want more
18:49:13  <Diadem> actually I think multiplayer you can do a lot less because you can't pause the game all the time :)
18:49:37  <bowman> thats what the other people are for hehe
18:50:43  <Diadem> true
18:51:14  <Diadem> I've tried openttd coop. But their networks are actually tiny
18:51:37  <Patrick`> yeah
18:51:42  <Patrick`> wait, what?
18:51:57  <Patrick`> they're grotesquely enormous, full of bypasses and 6x6 junctions
18:52:08  <peter1138> heh
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18:52:28  <Diadem> Not those I have seen
18:52:42  <Diadem> perhaps I've looked at the wrong game
18:52:44  <Diadem> *s
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18:54:38  <Patrick`> current public server one
18:54:42  <Patrick`> at least as of 2 days ago
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18:54:55  <Patrick`> unless they restarted
18:55:32  <bowman> I find that even with pausing most industries close before you can get them connected, on maps larger than 512x
18:55:51  <Diadem> ah I found their archive
18:55:58  <bowman> at least it feels like a ton of them close hehe
18:55:59  <Diadem> Their biggest game ever according to their archive has 1004 trains
18:56:17  <Diadem> My current game has almost 600 and it's only 1967
18:58:18  <Patrick`> yeah, but thier map is like half tracks
18:59:39  <Belugas> [14:54] <bowman> I find that even with pausing most industries close before you can get them connected, on maps larger than 512x   <-- known.  work on fixing this has already started.  The closure of industries will not be affected, just the renew of them
19:05:41  <peter1138> al
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19:22:16  <RichK67> hi
19:22:27  <Wolf01> hi RichK67
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19:46:41  <Belugas> #Bed's too big without YOU!
19:49:14  <glx> wrong chan Belugas I think
19:49:37  <Belugas> ?
19:49:39  <Belugas> ho..
19:49:42  <Belugas> :(
19:49:46  * Belugas is confused
19:49:51  * hylje spawns more overlords
20:00:35  <Progman> we are the swarm
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20:51:25  <peter1138> may nothing but happiness come through your door
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20:53:05  <Belugas>
20:53:07  <Belugas> Hint...
20:53:09  <Belugas> So rare,
20:53:18  <Belugas> it has not totall reached forums :S
20:53:27  <peter1138> :)
20:53:28  <SmatZ> :-)
20:54:54  <peter1138> babe, i'm gonna leave you
20:55:17  <SmatZ> I wonder, people don't read wiki, they don't even look thaough patch options, they just post on tt-forums, or post on tt-forums with "BUG!?" in topic, or,even worse, they report it at
20:57:45  <Belugas> Leave you when the summer comes a-rollin'
20:57:51  <Belugas> indeed SmatZ...
20:57:57  <Belugas> LAZINESS!!!
20:59:03  <SmatZ> :-)
20:59:27  <peter1138> any particular post you're talking about, or just in general?
20:59:28  <Belugas> and speacking of LACK of intelligence... ->
20:59:35  <peter1138> heh
21:00:47  <SmatZ> peter1138: just in general - now there are two recent threads with "even transparent trees block my view" (they don't know about the Invisible trees option), or often required "game is so fast/slow" "planes earn too much money" etc... it is still the same
21:00:59  <SmatZ> or very often mentioned "stupid AI"
21:01:15  *** Diadem [] has quit [Quit: Gone]
21:01:17  <Belugas> anyone with below 20 posts are, generally
21:01:19  <SmatZ> and bugreports about "train waiting in a station" (because it was given a timetable)
21:02:41  <SmatZ> hehe @ Belugas :)
21:04:00  <Belugas> and now... home
21:04:03  <Belugas> by bye
21:04:04  <SmatZ> bye bye Belugas
21:07:44  <Wolf01> mmmhmhm, not nice... cities are building parallel roads, like a 2x2 grid into a 3x3 grid
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21:17:45  <SmatZ> Wolf01: did you change the grid?
21:17:52  <SmatZ> from 3x3 to 2x2?
21:17:57  <SmatZ> or to "Random"?
21:18:14  <Wolf01> maybe to random
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21:28:02  <Wolf01> 'night
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22:07:46  <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12654 /trunk/src/order_gui.cpp: -Codechange: remove some unneeded right click handling due to the splitting of the load/refit button.
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22:16:01  <dragonhorseboy> anyone know what would cause ecs town vector to disable itself?
22:16:16  * dragonhorseboy is trying to figure out this silly thing re getting ecs loaded for multiplay
22:16:36  <dragonhorseboy> several other ecs vectors are already loading just fine
22:16:44  <Patrick`> is there anything between the complexity of ecs and the regular set of industries?
22:16:50  <SmatZ> maybe wrong landscape?
22:17:13  <SmatZ> maybe you are using another town replacement set
22:17:17  <SmatZ> I don't know
22:17:18  <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12655 /trunk/src/order_gui.cpp: -Change: show the current state in the drop down 'buttons'.
22:17:43  <Eddi|zuHause2> or wrong order of grfs?
22:18:35  *** Mirrakor [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:18:49  <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12656 /trunk/src/ (39 files in 3 dirs): -Fix: tooltips for some order buttons are outdated/incorrect.
22:19:01  <dragonhorseboy> hm you telling me I can't have chemicals vector loaded at all just because of using north america building grf?
22:19:15  <dragonhorseboy> (that vector wants the town vector loaded...and the latter is disabled..meh)
22:19:34  <Eddi|zuHause2> Patrick`: there is Pikka's Basic Industries (PBI)
22:19:59  <Patrick`> coo
22:20:08  <Patrick`> oh I remember that
22:20:27  <Patrick`> I gave up because the forum didn't allow 3-letter searches and google only turned up the pc-bsd archive format
22:20:29  <ln> I HATE ECLIPSE
22:20:30  <Eddi|zuHause2> also, that can be extended by the "Brick Chain"
22:20:31  <Patrick`> but now that i know it's pikka
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22:20:52  <Eddi|zuHause2> you know, there is grfcrawler
22:20:57  <Patrick`> my maps tend to spider out and only have one-way junctions etc
22:21:05  <dragonhorseboy> so do I have to do without the chemical/construction vectors or ?
22:21:14  <Patrick`> because all they're doing is funelling everything to one consumption
22:21:25  <Eddi|zuHause2> dragonhorseboy: what does chemical have to do with town vector?
22:21:38  <dragonhorseboy> eddi..its saying it requires the town vector
22:21:50  <dragonhorseboy> and well they're disabling themself because town vector got disabled :/
22:22:13  <Eddi|zuHause2> wasn't there a "basic vector"?
22:22:38  <dragonhorseboy> yes and that one is enabled
22:22:44  <Eddi|zuHause2> and like SmatZ indicated, do you use the right climate?
22:23:06  <dragonhorseboy> its temperate heh :">
22:23:14  <Eddi|zuHause2> or rather, the right grf for the climate?
22:23:29  <Eddi|zuHause2> some of the ECS grfs were divided for each climate
22:23:33  <dragonhorseboy> yeah I noticed there were a few other for tropical/pikka .. don't have these in the newgrf list
22:24:03  <Eddi|zuHause2> and the order of grfs is relevant
22:24:25  <Eddi|zuHause2> and generally, you are probably doing something wrong
22:24:39  <Eddi|zuHause2> wrongly?
22:24:44  <Eddi|zuHause2> i hate english
22:26:26  <Patrick`> Eddi|zuHause2: I just found out about grfcrawler from what you said
22:26:33  <dragonhorseboy> eddi the only warnings they give in about any order is to have town vector loaded before
22:26:35  <dragonhorseboy> nothing else
22:26:49  <dragonhorseboy> (and yes I did try enable/disable the working vectors to check)
22:28:52  <Patrick`> I remember once seeing a diagram of cargo dependancy in ECS linked from here
22:29:34  <Eddi|zuHause2> Patrick`: it's all on georges pages
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22:29:59  <Patrick`> yeah, was crawling them
22:30:28  <dragonhorseboy> hmm wiki only explains each vector..not much about putting them together
22:31:33  <Eddi|zuHause2> dragonhorseboy: order them by the last two digits of the GRF-ID
22:32:28  <Patrick`> I've probably got the wrong site then, this one's been updated but it mostly reads like it's from 1995
22:33:31  <Patrick`> sleep, will find it later
22:33:50  <SmatZ> :)
22:33:53  <SmatZ> nn Patrick`
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22:35:02  <Patrick`> dur, or not
22:35:07  <Patrick`>
22:35:13  <Patrick`> I really want a poster of this now :)
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22:38:30  <dragonhorseboy> quick question...
22:38:43  <Eddi|zuHause2> too slow.
22:38:47  <dragonhorseboy> is 'ecs vehicles alpha 1' a vector or just rv refit?
22:39:27  <Eddi|zuHause2> "vehicles" means refit options
22:39:39  <Eddi|zuHause2> it doesn't provide any industries
22:39:40  <dragonhorseboy> thought so ty
22:40:11  <Eddi|zuHause2> i think it's for all default vehicles, not only road
22:40:22  <Eddi|zuHause2> and it assumes that you do not use newgrf sets
22:40:46  <dragonhorseboy> well brb to eat then I'll be back to figure out more of this :p
22:41:45  <Eddi|zuHause2> first you are back and then you are back? how does that work?
22:56:07  <dragonhorseboy> north america city, north america road, us station, planeset, newship, industrial station renewal, generic tram, canadian station, canadian trainset, newbridges, [insert all ecs here], LV4
22:56:18  <dragonhorseboy> thats what the newgrf list is like eddi
23:03:45  <Dominik> why are cargo vectors called cargo vectors?
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23:06:57  <DaleStan> Because "cargo vectors" is what George calls them.
23:09:34  <ln> eclipse is a long-lasting inside joke, isn't it?
23:09:49  <ln> surely no one uses it for real development?
23:10:16  <dragonhorseboy> hm ok...ECS coal mine says its waiting to process 0 vehicles
23:10:26  <dragonhorseboy> guess there's something buggering it...*unloads all ecs*
23:10:29  <SmatZ> we use eclipse at school...
23:10:36  <SmatZ> way better than JBuilder we used before
23:17:11  <Dominik> i'm currently struggling with eclipse. i tried moving over to it from kdevelop because i don't want to use too much kde. it has its plusses, but also its quirks : /
23:18:30  <ln> i have to say that with 4 cores and 4 GB of RAM the slowness is not an issue, but other things are.
23:19:03  <Wezz6400> I've noticed the other day that eclipse is much, much faster on linux than it is on windows
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23:24:23  <dragonhorseboy> hm got a map running for now anyhow ^-^
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