Log for #openttd on 20th April 2008:
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05:15:34  <Eddi|zuHause2> # This is our decision, to live fast and die young.
05:15:35  <Eddi|zuHause2> # We've got the vision, now let's have some fun.
05:15:35  <Eddi|zuHause2> # Yeah, it's overwhelming, but what else can we do.
05:15:35  <Eddi|zuHause2> # Get jobs in offices, and wake up for the morning commute.
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08:23:22  <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12800 /trunk/src/ (13 files): -Codechange: move the animated tile related functions out of texteff.cpp (it isn't a text effect after all). Also remove a few more functions from functions.
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08:26:30  <Roujin> g'day
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08:33:02  <yorick> station animation *O*!
08:35:32  <Roujin> it says *some* support
08:36:23  <Roujin> i wonder if he is just belittling his work with this phrase or it's not *full* support yet
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08:43:35  <peter1138> just a disclaimer
08:43:42  <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12801 /trunk/src/ (7 files): -Codechange: remove the dependency of function.h in town_map.h
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08:50:01  <Roujin> peter1138: so it means like "it probably works now, but if something doesn't, you can't sue me"?
08:50:15  <peter1138> yeah :)
08:50:49  <yorick> heh
08:51:06  <yorick> get me some pbs now :)
08:51:16  <peter1138> new yapp!
08:51:22  <peter1138> only problem is it's now 200KB :o
08:51:32  <yorick> }|
08:52:12  <yorick> he should split it
08:52:36  <peter1138> well his concern is to make it work
08:52:59  <yorick> your concern is to include it
08:53:32  <yorick> and he should stop breaking my savegames :(
08:55:45  <peter1138> hehe
08:55:46  <Roujin> hmm.. this is strange..
08:55:52  <Roujin> does clean r12800 compile?
08:55:56  <peter1138> that's why he gives major numbers
08:56:04  <peter1138> no
08:56:15  <Gekz> svn r broke!
08:56:22  <yorick> nope
08:56:33  <yorick> trunk fails!
08:56:41  <Roujin> ah okay, no wonder patched r12800 does not compile then ^^
08:56:59  <yorick> some link errors
08:57:13  <peter1138> just add animated_tile.cpp to source.list
08:57:24  <yorick> why haven't you?
08:57:40  <Roujin> i was getting sceptical when it reported an error in a file the patch didn't touch ^^
08:57:55  <peter1138> because i haven't
08:58:22  <Roujin> rubidium probably did change it in his build but forgot adding it to the submit
08:58:47  <yorick> it has to recompile for one file :(
09:01:39  <Roujin> you could have checked out 12799 instead :P
09:03:51  <Trond> I buildt r12799 just to check out the ISR station animation :) Really nice! Thanks peter1138!!
09:04:12  <peter1138> no, thank mart3p for coding ISR
09:04:23  <peter1138> he had way more work than me ;)
09:04:28  <Trond> I do that almost daily :P
09:05:20  <Trond> but he couldnt put the support for it to trunk, so you need a thanks too :)
09:07:56  <Roujin> trond?
09:08:03  <Trond> yes?
09:08:07  <Roujin> i updated daylength
09:08:12  <Trond> sweet!
09:08:39  <Trond> Thanks a lot, I managed to update it myself too, but then the clock is gone, so thats great!
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09:09:29  <BiO-HaZaRd> hi all :P
09:09:39  <Roujin> i managed to keep the clock ;)
09:10:01  <Gekz> whats ISR?
09:10:09  <Roujin> stuff moved to statusbar_gui.cpp
09:10:27  <Roujin> Gekz: industrial stations renewal
09:10:33  <Trond> I couldnt figure it out =)
09:10:44  <Roujin> it's a sweet newgrf
09:10:49  <Trond> no knowledge about c++ doesnt help, thats for sure
09:10:51  <Roujin> featuring animated stations
09:11:04  <Trond> I dare say its the best stationset out there
09:11:26  <peter1138> there aren't that many freight station sets
09:11:28  <Gekz> cool.
09:11:28  <Roujin> well it is the newest one
09:11:40  <Trond> true peter
09:11:52  <Roujin> older sets were made in a time where not all features were available that are available now
09:11:54  <peter1138> Born_Acorn's needs updating
09:12:03  <Trond> and this is the only one thats actively progressing at the time I think...
09:12:05  <peter1138> Born_Acorn, Newfreightstationupdate!
09:12:21  <Gekz> oh
09:12:24  <Gekz> I already used ISR
09:12:25  <Gekz> lol
09:12:27  <Gekz> I use 0.6.0
09:12:52  <Roujin> update to newest trunk and you'll notice a slightly change ;)
09:13:10  <Trond> well, seeing the cranes move, doors going up and down sure make it worth updating to trunk
09:13:11  <Gekz> oh
09:13:16  <Gekz> you updated daylength to it
09:13:19  <Gekz> therefore I will
09:13:24  <Gekz> daylength is the only patch I need
09:13:25  <Gekz> :P
09:14:08  <Trond> thats the bad thing about that patch... its very hard to play a game without daylenght patch when you're used to play with it...
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09:14:18  <Gekz> lol
09:14:35  <BiO-HaZaRd> How can i join a game that's going to last more than a week?
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09:14:54  <Wolf01> hello
09:15:25  <Gekz> BiO-HaZaRd: start one
09:15:27  <Gekz> lol
09:16:02  <Alberth> BiO-HaZaRd: Take a week holiday
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09:19:38  <BiO-HaZaRd> but one that i'm for sure that at least somebody else is still going to be playing that long
09:19:53  <BiO-HaZaRd> do players gather for this reason?
09:21:16  <Gekz> openttd doesnt usually last that long >_>
09:21:55  <BiO-HaZaRd> why is that?
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09:25:12  <yorick> [11:09] <Roujin> i managed to keep the clock ;) <-- what clock?
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09:26:57  <Roujin> this one: <Trond> Thanks a lot, I managed to update it myself too, but then the clock is gone, so thats great!
09:27:38  <Roujin> daylength patch features a clock in the lower left if the daylength setting is >14
09:27:52  <Roujin> besides the date
09:32:24  <peter1138> freeciv is odd
09:32:33  <peter1138> (and there are currently only 4 servers showing)
09:32:44  <peter1138> but the minimap... left click does nothing, right click scrolls :o
09:32:53  <yorick> thanks for saying freeciv :)
09:33:01  <yorick> I googled it :)
09:33:26  <peter1138> not heard of it before?
09:33:29  <yorick> no
09:34:18  <yorick> 12799 seems to be the generic update-patches-to revision :p
09:34:26  <peter1138> hehe
09:34:47  <peter1138> and it's only eyecandy ;)
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09:37:33  <peter1138> freeciv really could do with ottd's map panning control :o
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09:38:00  <Roujin> i found a small glitch for daylength settings between 15 and 30
09:38:38  <Roujin> time was not redrawn properly
09:38:58  <Wolf01> daylength is far from perfect
09:39:14  <Trond> I have noticed that Roujin, can you fix it?
09:39:14  <Gekz> so
09:39:22  <Gekz> what do I have to do to make the current trunk compile
09:39:49  <Trond> bug a dev to fix it? ^^
09:39:53  <Roujin> yes, i have fixed it
09:40:08  <Roujin> uploading updated .diff shortly
09:40:24  <Roujin> Gekz: [10:57] <@peter1138> just add animated_tile.cpp to source.list
09:40:30  <Trond> nice Roujin! Thanks again :)
09:40:41  <Wolf01> I abandoned that patch when I started to find weird bugs and things which had different behaviors when at longer day length
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09:40:53  <Roujin> but, seriously, what is the max value for daylength set to? oO
09:41:01  <Roujin> real time? oO
09:41:02  <Trond> 255 I believe
09:41:13  <Wolf01> realtime would be cool :)
09:41:39  <Roujin> oh yes its 255
09:41:46  <Roujin> that's about 2 minutes / second
09:41:55  <Roujin> 120x real time
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09:42:08  <Trond> I usually play at 32, thats a good one for me
09:42:49  <Gekz> omg
09:42:53  <Gekz> we should totally make realtime
09:42:59  <Gekz> but first we must make massive maps
09:43:06  <Trond> hehe
09:43:19  <Trond> I tried a game at 70, but it got a bit boring tbh
09:43:26  <Gekz> 2^20 * 2^20 square maps
09:43:29  <yorick> but stations should take half-a-year to build at realtime :P
09:43:43  <Gekz> oh dear, teh realism mods
09:43:52  <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12802 /trunk/source.list: -Fix (r12800): do not commit from the src directory when you want to commit source.list too.
09:43:54  <Gekz> imagine having that run for two years, to have a troll destroy it
09:43:54  <yorick> finally fixed
09:44:09  <yorick> saving would take 3 days
09:44:12  <Gekz> no, I think something that would be quite playable would be a year per day
09:44:13  <Trond> ahh... compile time :P
09:44:16  <Gekz> starting at 1920
09:44:23  <Gekz> thats a good two month game
09:44:32  <Gekz> its like freeciv but less painful
09:44:38  <Gekz> and faster :P
09:44:45  <yorick> or some bug which requires you to run for 100 years to fix :p
09:45:03  <Gekz> huh?
09:45:13  <Bjarni> get real
09:45:23  <Bjarni> this is not a real time game
09:45:24  <yorick> heh...I just updated the pbs patch 3 revisions up
09:45:31  <Gekz> Bjarni: ever heard of a joke :P
09:45:38  <Bjarni> yeah
09:45:42  <Bjarni> both good and bad
09:45:47  <yorick> Bjarni!
09:45:51  <Bjarni> guess which one is present in this channel right now
09:45:55  <Trond> lol
09:47:22  <Roujin> Trond and others: uploaded the fixed .diff
09:47:29  <Trond> omw ^^
09:47:32  <yorick> downloaded it
09:47:39  <Gekz> Broken savegame - Invalid chunk size
09:47:41  <Gekz> -_-
09:47:46  <yorick> trying to combine with pbs
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09:49:26  <Gekz> what caused savegames to not load in the new trunk?
09:49:36  <yorick> is new paxdest also at r12799?
09:49:42  <yorick> nothing should, Gekz
09:49:50  <Gekz> then what went wrong
09:49:51  <Gekz> >_
09:49:52  <yorick> only savegames saved with a patch
09:50:02  <Gekz> i'm using the same patch I did before
09:50:05  <Gekz> DayLength
09:50:14  <yorick> has been updated multiple times?
09:50:18  <yorick> ask Roujin
09:50:32  <yorick> and YAPP is known to break savegames :-p
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09:50:59  <Roujin> Gekz: what exactly are you trying to load with what?
09:51:19  <Trond> uhm... thats probably becoz this dl patch is something I updated earlier, and its not the same as the one nappe updated a while ago?
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09:51:37  <Trond> just a wild guess
09:51:38  <Gekz> Roujin: I'm trying to load a r12717 + daylength patched savegame in the latest revision with the patch
09:51:55  <yorick> G:/BoTTD/BoTTD/msys/home/ottdsrc/trunk/src/order_cmd.cpp: In function `VehicleOrderID ProcessConditionalOrder(const Order*, const Vehicle*)':
09:51:55  <yorick> G:/BoTTD/BoTTD/msys/home/ottdsrc/trunk/src/order_cmd.cpp:1594: warning: enumeral and non-enumeral type in conditional expression
09:52:02  <Gekz> hrm
09:52:09  <yorick> yapp isn't compiling
09:52:11  <Gekz> Daylength affects industry production rate
09:52:17  <Gekz> Trond: that was your version wasnt it
09:52:17  <Gekz> lol
09:52:23  <Trond> no
09:52:34  <Gekz> then what was that
09:52:35  <Gekz> >_>
09:52:52  <Trond> that was nappe, and it broked my savegames so I updated the patch without that addition
09:52:56  <Trond> -d
09:53:28  <Gekz> oh dear
09:53:30  <Gekz> lol
09:53:34  <Trond> so you probably have to ask Roujin to update the version from nappe too ^^
09:53:41  <Trond> hehe
09:53:59  <Gekz> Roujin: would you please update nappe's version?
09:54:03  <Gekz> lol.
09:54:10  <Roujin> did he add something interesting?
09:54:12  <Gekz> yes
09:54:17  <Trond> no :P
09:54:20  <Gekz> Daylength affects industry production rate
09:54:23  <yorick> Roujin, could you update yapp to r12802?
09:54:37  <Roujin> sheesh
09:54:39  <yorick> yes, 3 revisions up, but I fail
09:54:48  <yorick> :)
09:55:00  <Roujin> 3 revs? lemme see..
09:56:00  <Roujin> ah, it's probably the move from texteff.cpp to animated_tile.cpp
09:56:05  <Trond> well, the dl patch works fine for me, so I'm happy. Thanks again Roujin!
09:56:31  <yorick> ...which gives a failure in player_cmd.cpp?
09:57:46  <Gekz> Roujin: we shall donate to your paypal :P
09:57:57  <Gekz> so whats this thing i'm meant to be seeing
09:58:12  <Gekz> with ISR and animations
09:58:15  <Trond> animated cranes for one
09:58:36  <Trond> cranes animate when trains are loading/unloading
09:59:08  <Gekz> cool
09:59:13  <Gekz> I've been wanting that for ages!
09:59:14  <Gekz> lol
09:59:24  <Trond> yeh, it looks very nice!
09:59:35  <yorick> the cranes on rails
09:59:36  <Gekz> what else?
09:59:45  <yorick> that's kinda it
09:59:54  <Trond> some of the station buildings have animated doors too
10:00:02  <yorick> but those need pbs
10:00:07  <Trond> the isr storage type buildings
10:00:42  <Gekz> lol ok
10:01:05  <Gekz> so I need that patch updated so I can use my savegames lol
10:01:10  <Trond> and conveyor belts too...
10:01:35  <Trond> yeh... sorry about that, but I couldnt have my savegames broken :P
10:04:32  <Roujin> well it integrates nicely with trunk, apart from the stuff that moved from main_gui to statusbar_gui, so i'll post an update of the version by nappe too
10:05:04  <Roujin> just compiling and running a test now
10:06:04  <Trond> wow, you're really the hero of the day!
10:06:15  <Trond> atleast for me and Gekz ;)
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10:06:40  <Gekz> ye
10:06:43  <Gekz> very much sop
10:06:44  <Gekz> so*
10:06:52  <Gekz> Trond: what game speed do you usually play at?
10:06:54  <Gekz> and map size lol
10:06:55  <Roujin> the real problem is, i don't think i'll find a way to make one version able to load all of your savegames
10:07:26  <Roujin> because makers of patches mostly use a system thats bound to break some time
10:07:38  <Trond> daylenght 32 and 2048x2048 or 2048x256
10:07:45  <Gekz> lol
10:07:48  <Gekz> i do 4
10:07:55  <Gekz> and 256 x 1024
10:07:56  <Gekz> :P
10:08:03  <Roujin> as soon as trunk bumps savegame version, either loading from trunk is broken, or loading from older version of the patch is broken
10:08:12  <Trond> I like big maps with mucho industries and few towns
10:08:23  <Gekz> I like small maps with few towns and few industries
10:08:24  <Gekz> lol
10:08:26  <Rubidium> Roujin: unless you prepared your patch for it
10:08:29  <Gekz> I once played 128 x 128
10:08:30  <Gekz> with 4 towns
10:08:34  <Gekz> and 4 human players
10:08:43  <Trond> yeh, thats why I hope dl someday will be in trunk, but I'm not holding my breath
10:08:43  <Roujin> Rubidium: yes, that's why i start my patch at savegame version 200
10:08:44  <Gekz> haha
10:08:48  <Trond> lol
10:08:59  <Roujin> and if i have to bump, i have 201
10:09:20  <Rubidium> MiniIN had a similar way of working
10:09:52  <Trond> well... problem with that is stuff can happen like when gonozal bumped savegame to 99 and then decided he sholdnt bump that much and made it 90 in next version...
10:09:55  <Gekz> wouldnt it be better to have savegame versions preceded with a letter?
10:10:03  <Gekz> with o reserved for the official version?
10:10:10  <Roujin> I wish every patch maker would do something like this..
10:10:11  <Rubidium> only more a 10 revisions between trunk and MiniIN, so after 10 savegame bumps in trunk MiniIN savegames couldn't be loaded anymore, but that wasn't really a problem because downloading an intermediate binary would just solve it
10:10:41  <Roujin> Gekz: letters are not really practical for mathematical operators, you know.. ;)
10:10:55  <Rubidium> letters was space too
10:11:11  <Gekz> Roujin: Hexadecimal then
10:11:11  <Gekz> :P
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10:12:07  <Trond> someone should make a patch so I could load any savegame an convert it to some higher/lower savegame version...
10:12:34  <Gekz> lol
10:12:43  <SmatZ> hello
10:12:43  <Trond> that could sortoff save some old savegames if it was possible :P
10:13:41  <Gekz> Roujin: considering nappe added a feature, wouldnt that mean that his patch could load your patch but not vice versa?
10:14:06  <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12803 /trunk/src/ (10 files): -Cleanup: rename SpecialVehicle to EffectVehicle to have a uniform naming of the thing instead of using both names for the same thing.
10:14:31  <Trond> it didnt at the time nappe did it, and thats why I updated the older version at the time...
10:14:50  <Roujin> Gekz: it should be able to, but because of the broken way of usage of the savegame version, it doesn't work
10:15:24  <Gekz> bah, why is there a savegame version anyway
10:15:33  <Roujin> to ENSURE backwards compatibility
10:15:43  <Roujin> but if its used wrong, it breaks everything
10:15:49  <Gekz> there should be an option to ignore it
10:15:52  <Gekz> beacuse you're hardcore
10:15:54  <Gekz> >_>
10:16:01  <Roujin> i'll explain it.. gimme some secs
10:17:01  <Roujin> if you add a new option, you bump the savegame version (say to 94) and write in the code that this option only exists from version 94 onwards
10:17:41  <Roujin> this way, the game will still be able to load from savegame version 93, because it knows "aha, this option did not exist back then, so i won't try to load its value"
10:18:25  <Gekz> yes, I realise that
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10:19:01  <Roujin> now when nappe added the new option, he didn't bump the version
10:19:11  <Gekz> so he needs a smack
10:19:21  <Roujin> that's why he broke loading of old games (Trond's issue)
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10:19:34  <Patrick`_> but when multiple people make patches, the savegame version number tends to spider
10:19:50  <Roujin> additionally there were now two versions around, having the same savegame version, but different stuff stored in a savegame
10:20:07  <Gekz> lol
10:20:36  <Trond> this is what happens when the pro's dont update their patches and let noobs like me do it ^^
10:20:39  <peter1138> the bane of patchers' lives is savegame bumps in trunk
10:20:41  <Roujin> and the savegame version is basically the information for the game what is stored in a savegame, so i have no way of making a new version now that accepts saves from both of you
10:20:59  <yorick> Roujin, the updated daylenght patch fails to load savegames with the version of 12800
10:20:59  <Roujin> yes, that's the next issue (what peter says)
10:21:11  <Roujin> and what yorick just experienced
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10:22:01  <Ammler> someone knows that? dbg: [net] send failed with error 104
10:22:32  <Rubidium> that means that send() returned error 104, which you can lookup
10:22:34  <Trond> so wouldnt it be better not to have a savegame version in patches like this then?
10:22:38  <Roujin> either it can load saves of current trunk now, OR saves of older versions of the patch
10:22:49  <Ammler> in  SRC?
10:23:03  <Rubidium> Ammler: in your OSes includes
10:23:04  <yorick> yes
10:23:19  <Roujin> the best way to do things (in my opinion) is set a new base version for your patch (say 200)
10:23:56  <Roujin> if you update your patch (add a new patch option or remove something or whatever) you can do that in your own "domain" of savegame versions
10:24:08  <Gekz> add more number
10:24:17  <Gekz> preceed it with 1337! :P
10:24:40  <Roujin> that's too high, i reckon it works only up to 255 or similar
10:25:02  <Gekz> oh dear.
10:25:03  <Roujin> because i tried starting with 1000 and that didn't work
10:25:08  <Gekz> char.
10:25:14  <Ammler> we have many desyncs in recent nightlies back
10:25:14  <Patrick`_> it's over 9000!
10:25:48  <Gekz> Roujin: pm me the link to the updated other patch if you finish it please, i'll be afk a bit
10:25:59  <Roujin> will do
10:27:40  <Roujin> now, i can't build in a sensible usage of savegame versions of the daylength patch, because that would totally break compatibility with previous versions of the patch. (it would reinstate compatibility with trunk though)
10:28:28  * yorick prefers trunk
10:28:45  <Trond> I think trunk would be the best tbh...
10:29:03  <yorick> otherwise it will never be included
10:29:24  <Roujin> oh this is not about including
10:29:47  <yorick> ultimately, it is
10:29:50  <Trond> coz that would make my new games with the new patch compatible with future updates to the patch...
10:29:54  <Roujin> at the point it's included, it will most probably break compatibility with previous savegame versions again :D
10:30:09  <peter1138> gah
10:30:18  <Ammler> Roujin: can't you not just make a "secure" save, where all daylength things are trashed
10:30:22  <peter1138> why do people want new features in 0.6.1 :o
10:30:33  <Ammler> and then you just need to reset them in a new version
10:30:38  <yorick> just because the waiting is so long
10:30:58  <yorick> 0.4.8 included new features, didn't it?
10:31:15  <st6> so is there a clearer maglev.grf?
10:31:17  <yorick> 0.6 is already outdated, it was before it was released
10:31:19  <Ammler> 0.4.5
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10:32:54  <yorick> <-- to trunk
10:32:56  <yorick> ?
10:34:14  <Gekz> Roujin: make a legacy patch
10:34:17  <Gekz> and a trunkable patch
10:34:25  <Gekz> and recommend all new games are started with the trunkable patch
10:34:38  <Gekz> and that people who want to complete their old saves with a new trunk use the legacy patch
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10:35:36  <Ammler> well, you could include a console command "legacy_save" :-)
10:35:57  <Ammler> that removes all daylength settings and save then
10:36:33  <Ammler> and then you load it like you load now saves without daylenghts
10:36:41  <Trond> wouldnt it be better to put patchsettings like that in the config file anyway?
10:36:42  <yorick> that would require hacking into the save mechanism
10:37:29  <Ammler> yorick, why?
10:38:16  <Ammler> isn't there a command like "clear <var>" or something in c++
10:39:00  <Ammler> if you would do that BEFORE save, the save should be trunkable, not?
10:41:14  <yorick> and the game itself is ruined?
10:42:37  <Gekz> lol
10:42:39  <Gekz> how useless.
10:43:19  <Roujin> okay, this is certainly growing over my head now :P I'll post the version Gekz can use now for his savegame, then make another one which is able to load trunk again and uses a sensible savegame version, but thats it then.
10:43:45  <Roujin> legacy saves - no wai oO
10:44:38  <Trond> and we wount bug you again untill another update is needed :P
10:44:57  <Trond> jokes aside: its really really apreciated!
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10:47:57  <Gekz> Roujin: I think you and everyone else misunderstood me
10:47:59  <Gekz> lol
10:48:08  <Gekz> what I meant was if you put the patch I need to use on the net, call it legacy
10:48:15  <Gekz> so people dont use it unless they have to
10:48:17  <Gekz> kill it off
10:49:19  <Ammler> yorick: why should the game be ruined?
10:49:32  <Ammler> you just loose the patch settings
10:50:11  <Ammler> what happen, if you load a save without daylength to a daylength client?
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10:59:50  <jez9999> Heh
11:00:00  <jez9999> I'm just installing Visual Studio 2008 (I have to, work insists on it)
11:00:04  <jez9999> it's like a not-so-small OS
11:00:16  <jez9999> 3 gigabytes, about half an hour and still installing
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11:12:21  <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12804 /trunk/ (20 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: move the effect vehicle handling out of vehicle.cpp
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11:19:39  <jez9999> oop.  restart to complete the installation.  see you on the other side!
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11:33:11  <ln> \o/
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11:37:09  <Ammler> someone here, likes to debug desync at coop ps?
11:38:02  <Rubidium> is it reproducable? and what version are you running there?
11:39:01  <Ammler> we now running nightly from yesterdayyesterday
11:39:13  <Ammler> yesterday does sec fault, as you know :-)
11:39:20  <Ammler> or current
11:40:26  <Ammler> I guess, the save version jump was done with the new order system?
11:40:41  <Rubidium> yes
11:40:51  <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12805 /trunk/src/ (news_func.h news_gui.cpp news_type.h settings.cpp): -Codechange: remove some bit magic related to the news display states. Patch by cirdan.
11:40:58  <Rubidium> but... is it reproducable?
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11:42:02  <Ammler> Rubidium: everybody desync after join, if you mean that with reproduceable
11:42:20  <Ammler> 2 players can join
11:42:25  <Rubidium> reproducable as in loading savegame and then everybody desyncs
11:42:30  <Ammler> and then is finish, everybody next will desync
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11:42:57  <peter1138> min_players 2, should we assume?
11:42:58  <Ammler> I also restarted the server
11:43:13  <Ammler> then it was possible for more players
11:43:25  <Ammler> around 3-4
11:44:21  <Ammler> we are now at year 2100, so it works quite a while
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11:45:50  <Ammler> we began the game with rev 12735
11:46:46  <jez9999> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12806 /trunk/src/ : -Codechange: rewrote game in C#.  Works much better now.
11:47:14  <Rubidium> wow... g++ compiles C#?
11:47:24  <jez9999> i didnt say g++ :-)
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11:47:28  <Roujin> lol what?
11:47:30  <Rubidium> and no files are changed
11:47:36  <jez9999> yeah the list was too long
11:47:56  <Roujin> hehe
11:48:28  <Rubidium> and my opinion is that C# sucks
11:48:35  <jez9999> strange
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11:48:53  <jez9999> vs2008 is ridiculous though
11:48:55  <jez9999> 3gb, lol
11:49:16  <Rubidium> and what do you get for that?
11:49:19  <jez9999> they'll be selling the next version as a computer
11:49:25  <ln> \o/ \o/
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11:49:27  <jez9999> you cant actually install it on an existing one
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11:49:29  <Rubidium> a 3D accelerated IDE?
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11:49:35  <jez9999> pretty much yeah
11:49:41  <jez9999> integrated testing capabilities
11:49:45  <jez9999> TFS
11:49:46  <jez9999> etc
11:49:49  <peter1138> slow debuggers
11:50:35  <jez9999> i didn't pay for it though
11:50:39  <jez9999> got it through my work's MSDN sub
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11:51:32  <Rubidium> well, I'd only think about installing MS* if I get paid for having it installed
11:51:35  <Roujin> gratz ln
11:51:42  <Roujin> where's the bus station though?
11:51:51  <Tefad> Rubidium: same thing here.
11:51:54  <jez9999> Rubidium: my job requires it, so yeah :-)
11:52:11  <Tefad> however the likelyhood of getting paid to use it without knowing how to use it are slim to none in my case ; )
11:52:17  * peter1138 still uses vs2003 & 2005
11:52:33  * Rubidium still uses gcc 4.3
11:52:38  <Tefad> i use bash, gcc, gdb, and joe
11:52:41  <jez9999> i would use vs2005 if one of our devs (the lead) hadnt insisted in 2008 because of its improved integrated tests
11:52:42  <peter1138> sometimes i use gmcs
11:52:48  <jez9999> he's obsessed with testing
11:52:59  <Tefad> not a bad quality
11:53:02  <Celestar> joe?
11:53:08  <Tefad> text editor
11:53:09  <Rubidium> joe's own editor
11:53:11  <Celestar> I use tcsh, vim, gcc and gdb :)
11:53:20  <Tefad> i never got around to learning vi
11:53:35  <jez9999> learn rocket science, it's easier
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11:53:55  <Tefad> actually i did learn a lot about flight vehicle guidance systems at work
11:54:07  <Tefad> i coded the simulator and search algorithms
11:54:11  <jez9999> ive seen airplanes fly on OpenTTD so i know a bit
11:54:19  <ln> comments?
11:54:24  <Rubidium> bye DorpsGek
11:55:05  <Tefad> i don't get it, trams are another type of train that have bidi tracks?
11:55:22  <jez9999> i've never understood why people like trams so much
11:55:30  <DaleStan> Trams are RVs, not trais
11:55:33  <jez9999> what are they, just things that make city roads more annying
11:55:33  <DaleStan> trains*
11:55:37  <Tefad> recreational vehicles?
11:55:45  <Celestar> er... I'm an aerospace engineer/rocket scientist ... where's the problem?
11:55:50  <DaleStan> road vehicles
11:55:54  <Tefad> hehe
11:56:04  <Ammler> In add a railstation to see the difference
11:56:09  <peter1138> trams are trains that go on roads, but not always...
11:56:15  <Tefad> except these RVs only work on special tram roads
11:56:25  <jez9999> why bother to make it a train if it's going on a road?  why not fit it with wheels?
11:56:42  <ln> jez9999: then it would be a bus.
11:56:51  <jez9999> no, because it wouldnt have an independent engine
11:56:54  <peter1138> trams don't have wheels? :o
11:57:03  <jez9999> tyre wheels
11:57:11  <peter1138> trolleybus!
11:57:25  <jez9999> trams seem like a strange solution to a problem
11:57:32  <Tefad> think of it as electrified RV
11:57:42  <jez9999> you want a shuttle service, but you arent satisfied with the existing architecture so you make holes in the road
11:57:50  <jez9999> why waste that money
11:57:55  <jez9999> and bugger up the road
11:58:10  <Tefad> well back in the day, engines kind of sucked
11:58:17  <Tefad> i have no idea.
11:58:19  <jez9999> i didnt say it had to have its own engine
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11:58:43  <jez9999> just make it an electric line powered bus
11:58:48  <Tefad> perhaps RVs forked from horse/buggy
11:58:50  <Rubidium> because 30-50 meter busses don't corner that good
11:58:58  <jez9999> trolleybus
11:58:58  <Rubidium> so it needs a little more guidance in the corners
11:59:05  <Rubidium> which means tracks
11:59:10  <Tefad> wow, i made no sense.
11:59:11  <jez9999> trolleybusses do
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11:59:36  <Tefad> well there were also horse drawn buggies on tracks
11:59:45  <Tefad> which got upgraded to electric
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11:59:57  <jez9999> they should have had a Flintstone's bus
12:00:06  <jez9999> everyone pushes with their feet
12:00:17  <jez9999> solve obesity too
12:01:07  <jez9999> actually isn't that pretty much what busses in the US are now?
12:01:17  <helb> is down?
12:01:35  <Rubidium> seems so
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12:02:33  <Rubidium> and it's back again ;)
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12:03:26  <helb> great :)
12:04:25  <jez9999> didnt they have a bus in one Flintstone's episode?
12:04:32  <jez9999> where everyone was pushing with their feet?
12:04:34  <jez9999> i cant remember
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12:08:22  <Roest> hi
12:10:38  <ln> should the shadow be a part of the sprite itself?
12:11:08  <Roest> what are we sdupposed to see here?
12:11:41  <ln> something shadow-related.
12:11:49  <Roest> i see no shadows
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12:13:10  <Ammler> ln: rails for comparision :-)
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12:13:37  <ln> i'm talking about the station list.
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12:14:18  <Roest> Roujin: you here?
12:14:37  <peter1138> ln, yes
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12:15:12  <Ammler> ln: not the tram symbol?
12:15:32  <Ammler> sorry then :-)
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12:28:13  <Roujin> Roest: yes
12:28:34  <Roest> did you abandon industry station names, or any chance you might update it?
12:29:55  <Roujin> well it's kind of broken (internally that is, it fiddles around with strings). I might redo it properly some time, but not now...
12:30:44  <Roujin> I wonder if that newgrf feature "naming of nearby station" was implemented in the meantime..
12:31:21  <Roujin> i read something about it, but can't remember if it was only preparing stuff, or really implementing it..
12:32:19  <Roest> ok, was just wondering, sounds like a nice feature
12:33:52  <Ammler> Roujin: does daylength also change something else then patch settings in save?
12:36:48  <Roujin> yes
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12:37:12  <Roujin> + *  modified _cur_player_tick_index (misc), _next_competitor_start (misc), running_ticks (vehicle)
12:37:36  <Roujin> types change from uint16 to uint32 or something
12:37:54  <Roujin> to cope with higher values resulting from the longer days
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12:39:51  <Roujin> I had to find that out myself the hard way (hmm, why does it still not load trunk savegames?), hooray for not documenting anything *cough* :D
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12:40:57  <Roujin> whatever, now i've completed the possible-to-load-from-current-trunk-and-now-has-better-savegame-version-handling-but-breaks-compatibility-with-previous-versions-of-this-patch version and will post it
12:41:56  <Roest> good thing is, the yapp i use in my patchpack breaks savegame compatibility anyway, so i dont have to worry about it for the rest of the stuff anyway
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12:46:27  <Roujin> !seen KUDr
12:46:33  <Roujin> @seen KUDr
12:46:34  <DorpsGek> Roujin: KUDr was last seen in #openttd 25 weeks, 3 days, 22 hours, 22 minutes, and 6 seconds ago: <KUDr> good
12:46:46  <Roujin> not good
12:47:30  <Roujin> hmm, who knows all about yapf?
12:47:43  <Rubidium> KUDr
12:48:04  <Rubidium> but you knew that already
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12:48:25  <peter1138> hmm, yes, yapf.hpp is ... nasty
12:50:15  <yorick> back: I was temporarily ill
12:56:56  <Roest> Maximum fuzz factor: 580  urgs
12:58:22  <Roest> it guesses so many difficult things right but fails at totally easy stuff like a simple include line
13:02:24  <Ammler> Rubidium: after restart of the server, its possible to join for many players, after about a minute, noone can join anymore
13:02:51  <Ammler> (maybe less then minute)
13:04:09  <Roest> the forum needs a "set all posts read" button
13:04:22  <Rubidium> Roest: it has one
13:04:42  <Rubidium> at least in the 'default' style
13:05:09  <Roest> uh, i have the ttd style which i thought is the default style here
13:05:18  <Rubidium> it is
13:05:20  <michi_cc> Roujin: what do you want to know? Maybe I can help, I have been digging around there for some time now :)
13:05:45  <Rubidium> Roest: just above the start of all the fora is a "Mark forums read" link
13:05:57  <Roest> omg
13:06:13  <Roest> that's embarassing
13:06:17  <Roest> thanks
13:06:48  <rebry> oki, question before i start.. how hard do you guys think it would be to elevate the trams above the roads? so the trams rides on their own "city-rails" whitout blocking the busses?
13:07:18  <Tefad> does that happen in real life?
13:07:44  <Roest> yes
13:07:58  <Tefad> same alignment?
13:08:01  <Roest> but then it's more like road and rails are seperated
13:08:51  <Tefad> at-grade intersections in less dense areas
13:09:03  <yorick> ah, I installed sdl, lets see how it'll work
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13:12:43  <yorick> configure should give me an option to compile without AI
13:13:58  <glx> yorick: implement it :)
13:15:03  <yorick> ...and get a 0.6 % chance it makes it into trunk
13:15:25  * yorick want flags in client list
13:15:38  <mrfrenzy> rebry: that would be really nice
13:23:02  <rebry> ohwell
13:23:14  <rebry> havent got anything else to do :P
13:23:16  <rebry> ^
13:23:29  <yorick> sdl fails :(
13:24:18  <yorick> G:/BoTTD/BoTTD/msys/home/ottdsrc/trunk/objs/lang/strings.h:1915: error: `StringID' does not name a type
13:24:30  <yorick> I can't get the errors logged
13:24:57  <glx> that's not sdl
13:25:10  <yorick> but it works without sdl
13:25:36  <glx> sdl does nothing at compile time for windows
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13:25:57  <yorick> it compiles sdl.h
13:25:58  <glx> nothing important that is
13:26:34  <glx> and I compile with sdl
13:26:34  <yorick> I can't get the first error to be shown
13:28:02  <yorick>
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13:30:23  <yorick> ok, this is what I did to install sdl: got, extracted it, copied files in include/SDL to the mingw/include dir, copied files in lib to ming/lib, copied bin/sdl-config to msys/bin/sdl-config, and configured &&made
13:30:26  <glx> something weird happens on your side
13:31:09  <glx> I always compile sdl myself
13:31:16  <yorick> if I try to copy the files in include/SDL to mingw/include/SDL, then it can't find SDL.h
13:32:09  <glx> hmm I use 1.2.12
13:32:15  * glx should update
13:34:38  <yorick> hmm...ottd wants me to have my SDL.h in the main includes dir?
13:35:24  <Sacro> yorick: ./configure --prefix=/usr && make && make install
13:35:29  <glx> sdlconfig tells ottd where sdlfiles are
13:36:09  <Sacro> glx: but if he doesn't use configure then it won't be set right IIRC
13:36:15  <yorick> Sacro, that's for compiling sdl?
13:36:27  <glx> Sacro: dunno, I always compile sdl
13:36:34  <yorick> why /usr?
13:36:49  <Sacro> could use /usr/local
13:36:53  <yorick> I just downloaded the development libraries
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13:37:07  <Sacro> surely you have to build the libraries from source?
13:37:18  <Sacro> oh, is it a dll + a header?
13:37:23  <yorick> yes
13:37:27  <Sacro> ahh
13:37:47  <yorick> but I'll compile sdl
13:38:39  <yorick> eeh...and I thought ottd had a big configure script
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13:42:47  <glx> yorick: autoconf is nice for checking silly stuff ;)
13:43:25  <yorick> it checked iconv for 3 times now
13:43:28  <yorick> and 3 times no
13:43:55  <glx> and it does it for g++, g77, ...
13:43:57  <Rubidium> it just wants to be sure that iconv isn't installed
13:44:57  <yorick> it's generating dependencies
13:45:14  <glx> anyway checking g77 for a C lib is just silly
13:46:15  <yorick> why isn't the precompiled one working
13:46:52  <glx> maybe you didn't installed it in the right place
13:47:09  <yorick> I followed some guide
13:47:29  <yorick>
13:48:49  <glx> usually you just put the files in the same tree as they are in the tar.gz
13:48:56  <glx> ad it should work
13:49:27  <yorick> it couldn't find SDL.h that way
13:49:31  <glx> but as you said, you didn't followed this tule
13:49:37  <glx> *rule
13:49:59  <yorick> because it didn't work
13:50:24  <glx> sdl-config should be in mingw/bin
13:50:32  <glx> not in msys/bin
13:50:42  <Gekz> does mingw compile trunk atm?
13:50:47  <yorick> yes
13:50:50  <glx> yes
13:50:52  <yorick> bottd uses it
13:51:02  <Gekz> hum.
13:51:05  <Gekz> why didnt it work for me
13:51:05  <Gekz> lol
13:51:11  <yorick> not the right libs?
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13:51:15  <glx> bottd may need to be updated to latest mingw gcc release
13:51:16  <Gekz> no, the libs are right
13:51:26  <glx> (vista support)
13:51:31  <Gekz> it was some random sprintf error
13:51:36  <Gekz> right at the linking
13:52:20  <glx> sdl compiled, now installing
13:53:24  <yorick> I'll try with the devel package one more time
13:54:14  <yorick> [SRC] Compiling sdl.cpp
13:54:14  <yorick> In file included from G:/BoTTD/BoTTD/msys/home/ottdsrc/trunk/src/sdl.cpp:10:
13:54:14  <yorick> G:/BoTTD/BoTTD/msys/home/ottdsrc/trunk/src/sdl.h:16:18: SDL.h: No such file or directory
13:54:27  <glx> where is sdl-config
13:54:34  <glx> where are the includes?
13:55:11  <yorick> sdl config is in mingw/bin, includes are in mingw/includes/SDL
13:55:21  <yorick> prefix=/Users/hercules/tmp/SDL-1.2.13 is in sdl-config
13:55:35  <yorick> so I'm probably using the wrong prefix
13:56:02  <yorick> but what prefix to use?
13:56:26  <glx> I use /usr/local (points to mingw)
13:57:02  <glx> check sdl-config --cflags outpu
13:57:37  <yorick> -DWITH_SDL -I/Users/hercules/tmp/SDL-1.2.13/include
13:58:08  <glx> ok the sdl packager should be slapped
13:58:20  <yorick> hmm...I'll try with /mingw, as that points to mingw for me
13:59:24  <yorick> using CFLAGS... -O2 -fomit-frame-pointer  -DMINGW -Wall -Wno-multichar -Wsign-compare -Wundef -Wwrite-strings -Wpointer-arith -Wno-uninitialized -W -Wno-unused-parameter -mno-cygwin -DWIN -DWITH_SDL -I/mingw/include/SDL -D_GNU_SOURCE=1 -Dmain=SDL_main -DWITH_ZLIB -DWITH_PNG  -I/mingw/include/libpng12  -DUNICODE -D_UNICODE -DENABLE_NETWORK -DWITH_PERSONAL_DIR -DPERSONAL_DIR=\"OpenTTD\" -DGLOBAL_DA
13:59:24  <yorick> TA_DIR=\"/usr/local/share/games/openttd\"  -Wstrict-prototypes -Wdeclaration-after-statement -Wold-style-definition
13:59:29  <yorick> looks better :)
14:00:03  <yorick> despite the fact it has to recompile
14:00:50  <glx> so as I understand it, using precompiled sdl-dev is a very bad idea for mingw :)
14:01:16  <yorick> correction: a precompiled sdl-dev for mingw is a very bad idea for mingw
14:01:31  <glx> hehe
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14:05:00  <yorick> I hope sdl will do better with 32bpp
14:05:14  <glx> it uses GDI
14:05:42  <yorick> unless you specify sdl
14:05:44  <yorick> ?
14:05:55  <glx> sdl uses gdi internally
14:06:05  <glx> it's just a wrapper
14:06:52  <glx> it can use DX too, but DX headers don't work well with mingw
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14:08:45  <yorick> aaw...same error
14:08:58  <yorick> again the strings.h problem
14:09:05  <yorick> G:/BoTTD/BoTTD/msys/home/ottdsrc/trunk/objs/lang/strings.h:3182: error: `StringID' does not name a type
14:09:05  <yorick> make[1]: *** [sdl.o] Error 1
14:09:09  <yorick> x 1000
14:09:18  <glx> you have a weird problem
14:09:24  <glx> as it works for me
14:09:45  <glx> any patch applied?
14:10:50  <yorick> nope
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14:11:51  <yorick> I'm compiling sdl now
14:12:14  <yorick> looks scary to see SDL_fatal.o on the screen
14:19:29  <yorick> ooh...sdl 1.2.12 supports nintendo DS
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14:20:16  <Noldo> oftc won't allow changing nick when on +m channel
14:20:26  <yorick> nope
14:20:35  <yorick> but you can change nick using nickserv
14:20:41  <Noldo> ahaa
14:20:45  <yorick> nickserv identify password username
14:20:52  <yorick> or just quit that channel
14:21:23  <Alberth> yorick: make[1]: *** [sdl.o] Error 1 <-- trying to compile sdl.c that includes strings.h?
14:21:34  <yorick> sdl.h
14:21:46  <Alberth> also good :)
14:22:25  <yorick> or...huh?
14:22:38  <yorick> sdl.cpp and sdl.h don't have strings.h
14:22:49  <Alberth> your include path settings are not set correctly, since it seems to pick the OpenTTD strings.h instead of the std C lib one
14:23:39  <Alberth> at my Linux system: /usr/include/strings.h
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14:24:26  <Ammler> stange, now the desyncs are gone, nobody knows, why... :)
14:24:40  <yorick> hmm...where to set them?
14:25:19  <Rubidium> Ammler: can't fix it when you can't reliably reproduce it...
14:25:43  <Ammler> I understand, is just confusing
14:26:26  <Ammler> I assume, its OS releated issue
14:26:40  <peter1138> unlikely
14:26:43  <Ammler> someone who isn't playing anymore
14:27:16  <Alberth> yorick: I don't understand why we don't have this problem...
14:27:36  <yorick> i'm now running make && make install
14:28:25  <yorick> although it seems to be installing it into /msys/local
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14:30:02  <Gekz> is ottd translated to esperanto? :P
14:30:15  <Patrick`_> feel free to do it
14:30:18  <Gekz> lol
14:30:25  <Gekz> Å­!
14:30:26  <yorick> yes
14:30:26  <Rubidium> partly (quite some missing strings)
14:30:41  <Tefad> esperanto.. what about lojban
14:30:46  <Tefad> i'd like to learn lojban someday
14:30:49  <Gekz> lol
14:30:50  <yorick> I remember putting an esperanto flag into openttdw.grf
14:30:57  <Gekz> lojban is so ugly
14:31:21  <Gekz> yorick: why
14:31:22  <Gekz> lol
14:31:41  <yorick> because that patch made it into trunk
14:32:51  <Ammler> Gekz: if know, how/where do find infos about adding new language, tell me, webtranslater2 doesn't tell much
14:33:16  <Patrick`_> ask.
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14:33:59  <Gekz> Ammler: edit a text file
14:34:26  <Ammler> Gekz: if you like to make it seriously, you should use the webtranslator
14:34:32  <Gekz> Tefad: why lojban
14:34:44  <Gekz> Ammler: or, I could simply know the language
14:34:46  <Gekz> and do it right
14:34:49  <Tefad> because it's more interesting than esperanto.
14:34:59  <Gekz> Tefad: its ugly as hell lol
14:35:08  <Tefad> ok?
14:35:09  <Gekz> and nearly pure logic poured out as "words"
14:35:12  <Tefad> pff
14:35:27  <Tefad> there are ways to express yourself
14:35:40  <Gekz> pei .o'ucu'i | [?] [relaxation!] [neutral] | Are you no longer in pain?
14:35:48  <Gekz> it's ugly.
14:36:18  <Gekz> ko ga'inai nenri klama le mi zdani | you-[imperative] [me-the-social-inferior!] inside-type-of come that-which-is-described-as having-to-do-with-me house | I would be honored if you would enter my residence.
14:36:22  <Gekz> rofl
14:36:52  <Tefad> have you seen malaysian or indonesian text?
14:37:29  <Tefad> i'd still like to learn it
14:37:36  <Tefad> even if not to use it every day
14:37:53  <Tefad> if you can translate something into lojban and again translated it to something else
14:38:12  <Tefad> you can probably translate the first language into the latter using lojban as an intermediate
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14:38:56  <Tefad> that's one idea anyway : )
14:39:01  <Gekz> lol
14:39:09  <Gekz> that sounds kinda pointless
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14:39:20  <Gekz> theres not many situations where you cant translate A to B
14:39:35  <Gekz> it's not language pseudocode
14:39:35  <Gekz> :P
14:41:37  <Gekz> anywho, good night all
14:42:29  <yorick> good evening
14:42:31  <yorick> :p
14:43:39  <Ammler> <-- that link is at, if you klick at the revision
14:44:19  <Rubidium> slap TrueBrain
14:44:45  <Noldo> while you are at it tell him to change where points
14:44:47  <Ammler> maybe change to a HQ link or removing
14:45:12  <Ammler> shortlog from hq might be a good one there
14:45:39  <Ammler> HG :-)
14:45:56  <yorick> yeah, Alberth, same error again
14:48:57  <Alberth> yorick: I don't have objs/lang/strings.h, but objs/lang/table/strings.h
14:49:13  <yorick> fixed it by replacing # include <strings.h> to # include "../include/strings.h"
14:50:04  <Rubidium> yorick: but #include <strings.h> isn't used by openttd
14:50:13  <yorick> it is by sdl
14:50:18  <yorick> hmm...Alberth: I do
14:51:16  <Alberth> do you have table/strings.h? I always build with --enable-debug configure flag, maybe that makes a difference
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14:51:31  <peter1138> Rubidium: yorick is doing something very wrong
14:51:53  <Rubidium> he probably has some tainted checkout
14:52:07  * yorick deletes file
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14:53:21  * yorick got it working
15:06:42  <yorick> better graphs has a problem with newcargos
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15:10:31  <peter1138> no shit :)
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15:23:10  <Roujin> @logs
15:23:12  <Roujin> @log
15:23:15  <Roujin> !log
15:23:17  <SpComb> Logs:
15:23:17  <Roujin> !logs
15:23:22  <Roujin> i hate bots ><
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15:25:31  <yorick> other people hate !logs
15:27:41  <CIA-3> OpenTTD: richk * r12806 /branches/NewGRF_ports/ (69 files in 8 dirs): [NewGRF_ports] -Sync: with trunk r12773:12805.
15:28:09  <yorick> keeps syncing :o
15:29:50  <yorick> what is hetrying to do with it
15:30:12  <yorick> it's already outdates, newgrf_ports is at 12805, while trunk is at 12806...
15:30:19  <yorick> outdated*
15:35:11  <glx> 12806 is not trunk
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15:46:06  <Ammler> other strange behaviour, trucks (from 4LV) don't unload completly...
15:46:19  <Ammler> no timetable set
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15:49:30  <Ammler> it happens only with one Typ: McTruck
15:54:47  <glx> maybe incorrect properties
15:55:58  <Ammler> I autoreplaced them
15:56:08  <Ammler> I'll check with new Trucks now
15:56:53  <Ammler> cool that RV have now same order possibilities as trains :-)
15:57:17  <Ammler> with new Trucks, they are empty after unload
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16:38:17  <Wolf01> I know I might not understood well the transfer feature, but how can I make money by transferring the goods from a station to a city if the trucks make twice the running costs as negative profit?
16:39:50  <yorick>
16:41:37  <Wolf01> yes, it's what I'm doing, but Truck->Train->long track->destination works, but train->long track->truck->destination don't work
16:42:17  <Wolf01> transfer is usefull only to load a train, not to unload it
16:43:05  <SmatZ> Wolf01: maybe the trucks are too slow, so the cargo has less value after being delivered by trucks
16:43:06  <yorick> hmm...bug?
16:43:19  <SmatZ> eg. you are paid for distance and speed
16:43:28  <Wolf01> train is slow too, I'm at the beginning of the game
16:43:35  <SmatZ> train does long distance in short time, so it is paid a lot
16:43:43  <SmatZ> but then trucks take that cargo
16:43:47  <bowman> shouldn't the transfered cargo remember its total distance and time
16:43:55  <SmatZ> and then, it has lower value at destination
16:44:07  <SmatZ> bowman: it does
16:44:27  <Wolf01> train go at 96kmh, truck at 64, but it have only 10 tiles to travel
16:44:47  <SmatZ> you can count also time it has to wait for pickup
16:45:28  <Wolf01> none, the train arrives the truck picks up the goods and bring them to the city
16:46:53  <Wolf01> I have 4 trucks whick pick up goods from the station, and the trucks have about 1/10 of the train running cost, but they make 10 times at year negative profit
16:47:22  <Wolf01> 1.5M running cost and -12M profit
16:48:00  <Wolf01> the train have 24M r.c. and makes 240M profit
16:48:47  <stillunknown> more loss than running cost?
16:48:59  <Wolf01> yes, about 10 times
16:49:09  <SmatZ> I wouldn't wonder if it lost 1/20 of its value there
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16:51:00  <stillunknown> A vehicle should never loose more than it's running cost.
16:51:12  <SmatZ> stillunknown: with transfers, it can
16:51:19  <bowman> if its working, you should notice the trucks earning a lot more than they normally would for that cargo over 10 tiles, when they drop the transfered stuf
16:51:20  <bowman> f
16:51:31  <bowman> right?
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16:51:58  <Wolf01>
16:52:34  <Wolf01> train orders: full load -> transfer and leave empty;
16:52:57  <Wolf01> vehicle orders: full load -> unload if accepted
16:56:13  <yorick> ...sdl disabled me from reaching the close button on the openttd window :o
16:56:55  <yorick> alt-f4 also fails
16:57:15  <SmatZ> Ctrl+Q
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17:16:18  <Rubidium> Wolf01: the train gets paid for it's travelled distance + time
17:17:00  <Rubidium> the road vehicle gets paid for the total distance the cargo moved (straight line across the map) and the time it too MINUS the amount already paid to the train
17:17:35  <Rubidium> so if the train gets 90% of the distance in 50% of the time the train has a big profit
17:18:04  <Rubidium> however, the road vehicle causes the total profit (for the given cargo) to be lower than the profit for the train, thus it gets a negative profit
17:18:49  <Rubidium> the major 'issue' in this is that substracting profit from the first train is very complex and only slows down the game and makes the savegame size explode
17:19:43  <Wolf01> so I was right when I told "transfer works only truck->train"
17:20:08  <peter1138> no
17:20:29  <Wolf01> no, right, also truck->truck
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17:21:07  <Roujin> it does work
17:21:14  <Roujin> you get the right amount of money
17:21:32  <Rubidium> it depends on the speed and the distance travelled of the train/truck
17:22:29  <Wolf01> if I carry goods with truck from the same distance, assuming there is a factory instead of the station, trucks will profit a lot
17:23:45  <Rubidium> Wolf01 fails to understand how transfers work
17:24:25  <Wolf01> if trucks should make at least the train profit to earn money, I'll sell the train and use trucks to travel across half the map
17:24:45  <Rubidium> no
17:25:09  <Wolf01> ok, tell me how to do it, I'm sure I'm doing it in the right way
17:25:38  <Rubidium> you do not understand the workings of transfers, so lets try to reexplain it
17:27:12  <Rubidium> all vehicles that transfer cargo onto a station get paid as if they would transport the cargo from the pickup station to the dropoff station. However, the amount paid to these vehicles is 'stored' in the cargo value.
17:27:18  *** Osai`off is now known as Osai
17:28:29  <Rubidium> the last 'leg', the one that picks up cargo and delivers it to a station without the transfer order, gets paid according to the distance from the origin of the cargo (the very first station the cargo was on) to the destination
17:28:43  <Wolf01> ok, I understood this
17:29:16  <Rubidium> *but* now the amount of money paid to the previous vehicles, the amount stored in the cargo value is substracted from that profit
17:29:45  <Rubidium> this to make it impossible to cheat by transporting cargo from the south to the north and back and getting loads and loads of money
17:30:20  <Rubidium> during a transfer no money will be added to your (global) company balance
17:30:38  <CIA-3> OpenTTD: richk * r12807 /branches/NewGRF_ports/src/ (5 files): [NewGRF_ports] -Fix: New files failed to get added to svn on last merge.
17:31:35  <Rubidium> the addition of money to the company balance happens at the final delivery and is as if you would have transported the cargo from it's origin directly to the destination in the time it took with transfers
17:32:13  <Eddi|zuHause2>  <ln> comments? <- i think the tram lacks wheels
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17:34:12  <Wolf01> but what I can't understand is why I get "paid" 90M for the 95% of the travel, and -25M for the 5%
17:34:50  <Eddi|zuHause2> because the cargo waited long at the station?
17:35:00  <Wolf01> no, I don't think so
17:35:08  <Eddi|zuHause2> the 90M is just an estimation
17:35:16  <Wolf01> the 5% is 10 tiles
17:35:18  <Eddi|zuHause2> the last bit takes longer than estimated
17:35:35  <Eddi|zuHause2> so you get less
17:35:47  <Wolf01> it's longer like the pause the train have to service at the depot
17:36:01  <Wolf01> so the train don't lose 25M for a pause
17:36:03  <Ammler> other problme could also be, if you transport it "back"?
17:36:07  <ln> Eddi|zuHause2: i know, but so do these:
17:37:08  <Rubidium> Wolf01: if you would a train let the same cargo travel over the same distance in the same time as the complete trip with transfer, the train would only have a 65M profit.
17:37:38  <Wolf01> same identic route, I only used a truck, instead of a train: 10M of profit
17:37:55  <Rubidium> but the trip took way longer
17:38:09  <Wolf01> yes, twice as the train
17:38:45  <Rubidium> the -25M is just a 'fix' of the overestimation done for the train
17:39:00  <Wolf01> but apply it to the train, not to the road vehicle
17:39:24  <Rubidium> but... *how* to 'fix' such an overestimation on the non-last vehicle?
17:39:46  <Wolf01> the train make big moneys, the road vehicle pay 5M only to start the engine so
17:39:58  <Eddi|zuHause2> ln: i'm sure i have shown you this before:
17:40:02  <Ammler> but the company makes the money
17:40:09  <Ammler> not the single vehicle
17:40:12  <Wolf01> yes, but I lose points
17:40:21  <Ammler> oh, good porint
17:40:23  <Wolf01> because I can't reach the minimal profit
17:40:29  <Rubidium> then what should we do?
17:40:33  <Rubidium> not pay the train?
17:40:42  <Rubidium> or rather
17:40:47  <Rubidium> how much do we have to pay the train?
17:41:03  <Eddi|zuHause2> compare to this for the bus:
17:41:05  <Rubidium> only variables you may use are:
17:41:19  <Ammler> do you now pay the money, he would get, if it wouldn't be transfer?
17:41:44  <Rubidium> origin of cargo, total days in transport, already paid profits to previous trains, last pickup station, drop off station
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17:41:52  <Wolf01> now I removed all the transfer orders and the train UNLOADS, trucks now are happy with they 7M of profit
17:42:03  <Eddi|zuHause2> <- and this for a truck
17:42:05  <Wolf01> but the train is not happy
17:42:35  <ln> Eddi|zuHause2: here's a fake screenshot of one with wheels:
17:43:03  <Wolf01> train should be paid when truck get paid
17:43:14  <Eddi|zuHause2> a little better, but i would make the windows rectangular
17:43:28  <Rubidium> Wolf01: and how to account that?
17:43:50  <Rubidium> without exploding the savegame size
17:44:08  <Wolf01> a flag on the stuff the train is carrying, but as you say that's the problem
17:45:05  <Fingon> or change the point system so it does not count vehicles that never make a profit?
17:45:09  <Rubidium> it means that you need to store a list of pickup location, drop off location, vehicle and time travelled for *EACH* vehicle in the transfer chain for each packet
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17:45:39  <Rubidium> Fingon: so a company that has only loss making vehicles get full score for minimum vehicle profitability?
17:45:52  <Fingon> no, because those vehicles get some income
17:46:09  <Rubidium> from where?
17:46:10  <Fingon> but when income == 0 , so yearly "profit" == running costs,
17:46:12  <Fingon> then not count them
17:46:30  <Wolf01> there's already the transfer credits variable, I don't know how it is filled, but I think that it could be modified a little
17:46:49  <Fingon> so if you have 1 vehicle that earns 10k and 100 that earn 0, you get full score
17:47:05  <Fingon> but if you have just 100 that earn 0, you have 0 score (as you don't have vehicles that can be used in the calculation)
17:47:47  <Rubidium> Wolf01: it is incremented by each transfering vehicle by the amount of profit that vehicle would have made when it would have picked up the cargo at the place it picked up the cargo, would have dropped the cargo at the place it dropped the cargo and took the time it did take.
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17:55:26  <Wolf01> just a little think, train & truck, same route, different time/quantity
17:55:26  <Wolf01> train(100t): 100M
17:55:26  <Wolf01> truck(15t): 10M
17:55:26  <Wolf01> train(100t - unload) + truck(15t): train -rc, truck 7.5M -> total income 48.75 (truck must do 6.5 travels)
17:55:26  <Wolf01> train(100t - transfer) + truck(15t): train 100, truck -10*rc
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17:56:17  <Wolf01> why not behave the same as unloading, and pay the train like the truck: 48.75M?
17:56:40  <Wolf01> maybe subtract the running costs
18:03:25  <Wolf01> ah I just noticed the most weird thing: I don't need trucks anymore, the city has espanded while we had this nice conversation
18:03:35  <Eddi|zuHause2> i'm not sure what you are trying to suggest
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18:21:22  <Eddi|zuHause2> hm... can i make the default houses accept food in temperate?
18:22:51  <peter1138> newgrf :D
18:23:13  <Eddi|zuHause2> i mean with less than 3 lines changed ;)
18:23:33  <DaleStan> newgrf would be 0 lines changed.
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18:24:36  <Eddi|zuHause2> no, it wouldn't, it would need line changes after creating a line
18:25:37  <bowman> wouldn't the transfer issue be solved by just not storing the negative income adjustment per transfer vehicle? as long as the company gets the right amount, does the income stats for the individual vehicles have to necessarily add up?
18:30:34  <Ammler> bowman: every vehicle needs a minimum profit of 10k
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18:35:24  <bowman> yes, which isn't possible if the last vehicle in the transfer chain can get stuck with a negative profit to compensate for any over-estimate for a previous vehicle
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18:39:37  <Eddi|zuHause2> bloody passengers... they don't pay me anything
18:40:09  <Eddi|zuHause2> not one penny...
18:40:19  <Eddi|zuHause2> we need fractional currencies
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18:52:49  <Eddi|zuHause2> minimum of 1 payment... much better...
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19:10:06  <Eddi|zuHause2> i'm kinda missing a small ferry
19:10:24  <Eddi|zuHause2> for like 20 people or something
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19:12:15  <mrfrenzy> better use a helicopter eddi|zuhause2
19:12:30  <Eddi|zuHause2> yes, i use helicopters in 1927
19:13:08  <mrfrenzy> :)
19:15:11  <Ammller> isn't possible to start without
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19:17:01  <Eddi|zuHause2> you can start with an empty
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19:30:25  <Eddi|zuHause2> man... this fruit plantation has a monthly production of 0
19:30:31  <Eddi|zuHause2> very effective...
19:32:28  <Bjarni> maybe they ran out of money and started paying salaries in their own product
19:32:56  <Bjarni> it happens quite often in Russia shortly after USSR fell
19:33:43  <Bjarni> generally the workers accepted it but it turned out to be an issue on a dildo factory
19:34:05  <Bjarni> for some reason the workers didn't want to get paid a dildo a day (or whatever) instead of money
19:37:59  <Wolf01> sacro would have been happy
19:40:16  <Bjarni> Sacro: there is an ideal job for you in Russia
19:40:42  <Bjarni> put dildos in boxes and get x dildos for every hour you work
19:41:02  <Bjarni> so you will have new stuff to play with every night
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19:42:49  <krix> hey
19:45:07  <Wolf01> yo
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19:56:40  <KingJ> Think I may have set the record for generating a map. 14 mins :P
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20:01:03  <Bjarni> no
20:01:17  <Bjarni> it's just a matter of using an old enough computer
20:01:23  <hylje> a computer old enough
20:01:46  <hylje> and hacking the map generator to include arbitrary sleep()s
20:01:47  <KingJ> 900Mhz celeron laptop, circa 2000
20:01:52  <Bjarni> it took long enough to generate a 256x256 map on my 266 MHz
20:02:10  <krix> hm just a quick q. Maybe i missed something. Is there any option for a server, that if no user connected to it, then slow down the gameplay by Yx rate ?
20:02:29  <Bjarni> <-- clever device to ensure that other people will not see what you do on your computer
20:02:43  <hylje> there's an option to pause the game when there's less than x players
20:02:48  <Bjarni> krix: there is the pause option
20:02:56  <krix> only pause ?
20:02:58  <krix> :(
20:03:10  <hylje> good enoug
20:03:15  <krix> sometimes :)
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20:07:01  <Sacro> Bjarni: nice
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20:08:03  <rebry> guys, are there a DO NOT go there waypont?
20:08:19  *** lobster_MB [] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep]
20:08:33  <Progman> delete the track and they DO NO go there? ;)
20:08:48  *** lobster_MB [] has joined #openttd
20:09:28  <rebry> hehe
20:09:37  <rebry> well
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20:09:42  <rebry> yeah. :P
20:10:33  <Eddi|zuHause2> <KingJ> Think I may have set the record for generating a map. 14 mins :P <- it has taken me 30 minutes yesterday
20:10:38  <Eddi|zuHause2> much faster computer
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20:52:10  <Wolf01> 'night
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20:52:49  <ln> Bjarni:
20:54:40  <peter1138> have you got the shadow in, yet?
20:54:53  <Bjarni> is that supposed to be a tram pictogram?
20:56:31  <ln> peter1138: nope, i tried though, but it didn't seem to have any effect.
20:56:38  <ln> Bjarni: yes, it is.
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20:57:52  <Bjarni> doesn't look much like a tram :s
20:58:22  <Bjarni> trams looks more like [••<>••]
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20:58:30  <Bjarni> hmm
20:58:37  <Sionide> ascii-ttd?
20:58:39  <Bjarni> that didn't really look like what I meant
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20:58:48  <Bjarni> but I guess you get what I meant
21:00:30  <ln> Bjarni: you're free to show your idea of a ~13×9-pixel tram.
21:01:54  <bowman> looks like the common tram icon to me
21:02:30  <bowman>ßenbahn.svg/740px-Sinnbild_Straßenbahn.svg.png
21:03:39  <hylje> it's funny because 1) no tram here uses a 2-way pantograph and 2) every tram is articulated at least once
21:04:07  <Rubidium> hylje: there are unarticulated trams
21:04:28  <hylje> let me elaborate, in regular traffic :-)
21:04:40  <Rubidium> there are unarticulated trams in regular traffic
21:04:54  <hylje> i did specify "here"
21:05:33  <Rubidium> here is on this planet ;)
21:05:40  <Noldo> :D
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21:05:49  <Eddi|zuHause2> "here" trams used to have diamond-pantographs
21:06:00  <hylje> there are other ways to read it if you like
21:06:02  <Eddi|zuHause2> and weren't articulated
21:06:18  <ln> hylje:
21:06:27  <Eddi|zuHause2> but upon modernising the old stock they put half-pantographs on
21:07:05  <Eddi|zuHause2> bowman: i have told him that many times ;)
21:07:42  * hylje will also elaborate that regular traffic implied, currently
21:07:51  <hylje> s/,//
21:09:06  <ln> btw, the icon may need to be moved one pixel down, or the drawing order of the station signs changed.
21:13:13  <Eddi|zuHause2> ln: what do you think about something like this:
21:14:31  <Eddi|zuHause2> should have the same dimension as yours
21:15:17  <ln> not bad at all
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21:18:00  <peter1138> yeah, it has wheels :D
21:18:34  <ln> rectangular wheels
21:19:14  <Eddi|zuHause2> no! i used a 1x1 "circle" in gimp
21:19:33  <ln> ah, no problem then, they'll roll.
21:20:10  <peter1138> hehe
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21:24:19  <ln> is it possible that the icons' shadows and icons itself are two separate sprites in the commercial grfs?
21:24:42  <ln> themselves
21:24:45  <Eddi|zuHause2> glyphs should be 3 colour
21:25:00  <Eddi|zuHause2> background/foreground/shadow
21:31:18  <Roujin> g'nite
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21:37:05  <CIA-3> OpenTTD: glx * r12808 /trunk/src/ (lang/english.txt players.cpp):
21:37:05  <CIA-3> OpenTTD: -Fix: enforce autorenew values range in command
21:37:05  <CIA-3> OpenTTD: -Fix: typo in english.txt
21:38:31  <CIA-3> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r12809 /trunk/src/aircraft_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r1704): Possible out of bounds array access.
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21:50:09  <CIA-3> OpenTTD: glx * r12810 /trunk/src/players.cpp: -Codechange: style and useless casts in CmdSetAutoReplace()
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22:27:47  <Digitalfox> Wow Firefox 2.* and Memory managing sucks big time.. I just have Chazilla opened with 3 channels with empty conversations and it's using 150MB of RAM..
22:29:01  <glx> they should have fixed that in version 3
22:29:27  <Digitalfox> glx I hope so.. But still beta 5 so few extensions working..
22:29:56  <glx> or you can use a real IRC client :)
22:30:19  <Digitalfox> The problems is that Firefox 2 doesn't empty memory after closing tabs.. So if you reach 200MB it won't go down :(
22:30:52  <Digitalfox> glx chatzilla is fine for what I do.. It's simple and light on system..
22:31:01  *** Progman [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
22:31:26  <Digitalfox> Well when Firefox does this it isn't light, but restarting firefox should fix the issue :)
22:32:35  <glx> firefox, 9 tabs -> 232800K
22:33:05  <glx> kvirc, 5 servers, 11 chans -> 72600K
22:33:49  <Prof_Frink> irssi is using 18% of my memory.
22:35:27  <Prof_Frink> Which I make as 5898K
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23:18:54  <Eddi|zuHause2> something's still wrong with the daylength...
23:18:59  <Eddi|zuHause2> the decay of ratings
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23:26:21  <CIA-3> OpenTTD: glx * r12811 /branches/noai/ (bin/ai/regression/regression.txt src/economy.cpp): [NoAI] -Fix (r12431): passengers subsidies are from towns to towns, not to industries
23:50:31  <CIA-3> OpenTTD: richk * r12812 /branches/NewGRF_ports/src/ (newgrf.cpp newgrf_fsmports.h):
23:50:31  <CIA-3> OpenTTD: [NewGRF_ports] -Change: Added animation variables to fsmportspec and newgrf loader.
23:50:31  <CIA-3> OpenTTD: (Will unify & Oo-ify stationspec and fsmportspec later)

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