Log for #openttd on 16th July 2008:
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00:44:20  <fmauNeko> 'nuit all ;)
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01:50:25  <dvdb> hi
01:52:32  <dvdb> i am looking for a trainset which railroad cars have a high passenger capacity
01:53:01  <dvdb> the standard passenger car has a capacity of 40 passengers.
02:03:08  <ArmEagle> well, you can download one and use the grfcodec to change the capacity yourself :)
02:03:23  <ArmEagle>
02:04:35  <dvdb> ArmEagle: my english is to bad to read tutorials and I went on Friday in holyday. so i hoped that there exists something
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03:35:54  <Lachie> 'afternoon
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05:05:10  <fmauNeko> plop
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07:15:39  <planetmaker> morning #openttd
07:16:24  <Noldo> morning
07:16:35  <Forked> good morning :)
07:18:16  <Yorick> morning
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07:32:02  <Yorick> wtf...the ai built me a signalled trainline without 90-deg turns
07:33:04  <Noldo> what are the odds of that!
07:34:41  <Yorick> a million to 1
07:34:53  <Yorick> but still, it does
07:36:09  <Yorick>
07:36:55  <Rubidium> Yorick: but there is a 90 degree turn
07:37:08  <Yorick> shh, only because it made signals
07:37:12  <Rubidium> there are actually 2
07:37:44  <Yorick> I haven't seen it making junctions before, so I'm proud of it :)
07:38:10  <Noldo> :D
07:42:50  *** fmauNekAway is now known as fmauNeko
07:43:00  <Yorick> it's got 43 trains now
07:43:39  <Ammler> Yorick: you should make a ai for noai which behaves like the original ai... :-)
07:43:56  <Yorick> tb doesn't like me
07:44:16  <Ammler> is that needed?
07:45:25  <Yorick> it is if I want any support
07:45:41  <Yorick> hmm, is that original ai supposed to be learning?
07:46:00  <Ammler> lol
07:46:39  <Yorick> or is it my imagination that thinks it's making train junctions
07:48:15  <Noldo> pics!
07:48:51  <Yorick> I'll make a giant screenshot
07:50:25  <Ammler> but host it on faster server, please.
07:51:27  <Yorick>
07:54:13  <Yorick>
07:55:00  <SpComb> bah, too hard to get to the file
07:55:32  <Ammler> Yorick:
07:55:40  <Yorick> that's slow
07:56:05  <SpComb> shouldn't everyone have their own hosting in some form or another these days?
07:56:21  <Ammler> :-)
07:56:28  <Yorick> I don't like paying for that
07:56:44  <Ammler> google pages.
07:57:17  <SpComb> Yorick: then buy some cheap VPS or something
07:57:58  <Yorick> then I still need a domain
08:00:05  <SpComb> well, domains do have some kind of value
08:01:13  <SpComb> and you can get sensible subdomains for free, e.g.
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08:11:23  <Celestar> meh
08:11:29  <Celestar> I've overloaded one of my hubs
08:13:26  <Yorick> spcomb: thanks :)
08:14:39  <peter1138> hm
08:15:10  <Rubidium> you can only make an AI like the original AI when it cheats like hell and doesn't pay for terraforming
08:15:38  <Rubidium> which is IMO one of the bad things of the current AI
08:18:06  <Yorick>
08:32:30  <Kommer> Yorick: a domain costs 15 euro's a year.. thats not much? or host it on your own computer :)
08:34:53  * fmauNeko pays his domain around 6 euros a year :p
08:43:34  <Celestar> Rubidium: 420000 delivered cargo. I'm getting there :P
08:43:48  <Rubidium> how big is your map?
08:44:51  <Celestar> the typical 1k
08:44:57  <Celestar> but it's only a single cargo type
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08:48:12  <Rubidium> so you should get to 500,000*64/11 ;)
08:49:46  <Celestar> is this a challenge? :P
08:50:21  <Rubidium> if you're up to it ;)
08:50:38  <Celestar> dunno if I have enough houses to produce that number of passengers
08:50:48  <Rubidium> grow the towns
08:51:11  <Rubidium> you only need 7 times as many passengers to transport
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08:52:05  <Celestar> I've not yet connected every hamlet on the map
08:53:40  <Celestar> I'm already at 25% CPU load :P
08:54:39  <peter1138> that'll be yapp ;)
08:54:52  <Celestar> not sure.
08:54:56  <Celestar> want me to profile it?
08:55:02  <peter1138> hmm, 1k is typical?
08:55:11  * peter1138 usually plays at 256
08:55:13  <Celestar> most play that size meanwhile :P
08:57:39  <Noldo> with yapp-patch but without using yapp features might be the interesting to profile
08:59:02  <Yorick> it's around 10% slower
08:59:23  <SpComb> a fair price to pay
08:59:33  <Celestar> Yorick: where's the loss of speed?
08:59:49  <Yorick> at least on fast-forward ;)
08:59:51  <Noldo> SpComb: for nothing?
09:00:16  <Ammler> Did you ever think about special extensions for the tar files?
09:00:31  <peter1138> It wasn't 10% slower for me.
09:00:36  <Ammler> .tar for grfs and noai will confuse people...
09:00:57  <peter1138> What do you mean?
09:01:28  <Yorick> the .tar for 32bpp and noai
09:01:39  <Yorick> they have the same format, I'll confuse
09:02:24  <Celestar> :S
09:02:32  <Celestar> does multistop work with drive through stop?s
09:02:34  <Ammler> something like trg and tai or so :-)
09:04:06  <peter1138> What does you mean by the same format?
09:04:08  <peter1138> -es
09:04:19  <peter1138> Celestar: Yes.
09:04:29  <Ammler> Celestar: do you use trunk head?
09:04:32  <Yorick> peter1138: both tars
09:04:46  <peter1138> ...
09:05:03  <peter1138> I don't get it :o
09:05:03  <Celestar> yeah
09:05:06  <Yorick> they would both look the same
09:05:18  <Ammler> !s/would/do/
09:05:19  <peter1138> Should we not use zip for noai or something then?
09:05:23  <peter1138> -not
09:05:34  <peter1138> Silly keyboard, typing words I don't want.
09:05:36  <Yorick> better .ai.tar
09:05:49  <Noldo> windows doesn't have problems with that kind of filename?
09:05:56  <Rubidium> Yorick: you can do that, right?
09:06:11  <Yorick> Noldo: nope
09:06:12  <planetmaker> I prefer yorick's destinction of different tar files - helps to keep an overview
09:06:38  <Ammler> tar files should also show, if they already have the grf inside :-)
09:06:39  <Rubidium> yeah, placing AIs in another directory than the graphics does too
09:06:57  <peter1138> tar is a standard archive format...
09:06:58  <planetmaker> myfancy.grf.tar :P
09:07:04  <Celestar> peter1138: gotta disappoint you
09:07:08  <Celestar> peter1138:
09:07:12  <Yorick> but that does not work at download
09:07:45  <peter1138> ...
09:07:46  <planetmaker> Yorick: what doesn't work for download? filenames with several '.' ?
09:07:50  <Celestar> damn
09:07:55  <Celestar> wrong profile
09:07:56  <peter1138> Celestar: What's that supposed to be?
09:08:09  <Rubidium> and several dots in filenames doesn't work on DOS ;)
09:08:20  <Yorick> planetmaker: no, when stuff is downloaded, users can't actually know if it's an ai or a grf
09:08:29  <Celestar> peter1138: no . right profile. That'S a 150-train game with yapp :D
09:08:30  <Yorick> Rubidium: we don't use DOS, do we?
09:08:44  <Ammler> Rubidium: shouldn't you name files like they are no directories?
09:08:46  <Rubidium> orudge made a POC DOS binary not long ago
09:08:48  <peter1138> Yorick: Surely if you're downloading it... you know what it is?
09:08:58  <peter1138> Celestar: Right, but a profile on its own means nothing.
09:08:59  <Yorick> argh
09:09:07  <Ammler> !s/they/there/
09:09:20  <Yorick> peter1138: some people are just stupid
09:09:25  <peter1138> Yorick: Yes, you are.
09:09:31  <Yorick> that too
09:09:42  <Celestar> peter1138: true, but yet the blitter takes most of the effort
09:09:51  <orudge> whee, DOS :D
09:09:54  <Rubidium> hmm... idea
09:10:01  * orudge never quite got around to finishing the video driver however, as it was being a pain
09:10:06  <Noldo> orudge: hilight?
09:10:09  <Yorick> but I mean the "hmm, where does that file go...hey, a bin! *drags to recycle bin*"-kind
09:10:10  <peter1138> Celestar: So what am I being disappointed about?
09:10:15  <orudge> Noldo: quite
09:10:19  <planetmaker> Celestar: I think the point is to make a differential profiling analysis - and compare the impact :)
09:10:23  <Rubidium> add .console.exe for Windows console applications, and ..netcrap.exe for .NET crap and such too?
09:10:32  <Rubidium> and .gui.exe if it contains a GUI?
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09:10:51  <Celestar> peter1138: about yapp eating all my CPU :P
09:11:08  <Rubidium> maybe for zips containing applications and when it contains graphics?
09:11:09  <Yorick> ok, other example...what if you find a directory full of tars
09:11:18  <planetmaker> especially for a game where yapp is not used, but compiled in the binary compared to the same game, but yapp not compiled to the binary
09:11:21  <Yorick> and you want to use them all
09:11:44  <peter1138> Celestar: Ah, well, I wasn't the one who profiled it as using up to 10% more.
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09:12:11  <Yorick> that would be rubidium, I think
09:13:45  <Rubidium> Yorick: the filename should be descriptive enough, anything else is just pointless complexification of making the tar and loading it
09:14:07  <Yorick> ...
09:14:15  <Yorick> what did you think I was suggesting...
09:14:32  <Yorick> "the filename should be descriptive enough"
09:15:08  <Rubidium> you were suggesting forcing .tai or whatever variation thereof (i.e. an extension) to be the way to tell it what it is
09:15:20  <Rubidium> and now what does Windows do by default?
09:15:47  <planetmaker> [11:02]	<Ammler>	something like trg and tai or so :-)
09:15:55  <Yorick> rubidium: crash?
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09:16:04  <Rubidium> hide the extension
09:16:10  <planetmaker> [11:05]	<Yorick>	better .ai.tar
09:16:18  <Rubidium> that's also an extension
09:16:23  <Vikthor> Yorick: I think best would be to leave it to authors of said files
09:16:29  <Yorick> but it will show the .ai
09:16:53  <Vikthor> it's the same as in adding w to windows palette grf's
09:17:05  <Vikthor> you are not required to do so, but everybody does
09:17:11  <blathijs> Vikthor: Having a recommendation for authors improves consistency, which is not bad
09:17:29  <Rubidium> but forcing someone to use a specific format is bad
09:17:33  * Celestar goes installing KDE4.1rc1
09:17:41  <Ammler> Vikthor: but it needs suggested, that why I am asking
09:18:00  <Yorick> rubidium: forcing someone to not use a specific format is even worse
09:18:02  <planetmaker> yeah, but changing the file extension is bad imo
09:18:10  <Ammler> because currently nobody does. Either 32bpp authors and AI devs.
09:18:11  <Rubidium> <- why the extra ai?
09:18:13  <planetmaker> having a convention for filenames is good, though
09:18:15  <blathijs> Rubidium: Unless you want to do some filtering based on filename/extension, but it's probably enough to simply assume that everything in some directory is of the right kind
09:19:00  <Rubidium> it is in distinctly different directories (unless someone starts playing with (sym)links)
09:19:06  <planetmaker> Rubidium: it indeed enhances readability of the dir contents
09:19:38  <Rubidium> planetmaker: what directory?
09:19:39  <planetmaker> or, if you find a file posted and just download it now - and have a badly sorted download dir :P - a typical user error :D
09:21:54  <peter1138> ... user error
09:22:25  <planetmaker> well... it doesn't hurt no one to name files according to their usage.
09:23:03  <planetmaker> but then I'm a person who found a tar bug with too long file names for multiple-file archives :P
09:23:07  <Rubidium> the why aren't the newgrfs in your ottdcoop pack?
09:23:31  <Rubidium> *then
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09:24:02  <planetmaker> Rubidium: the grf pack is just putting the files as they are provided... we have no right to modify :)
09:24:04  <Rubidium> etc.
09:24:08  <Ammler> [11:18] <Rubidium> <- why the extra ai? <-- convoy.tar
09:24:39  <planetmaker> Rubidium: indeed I like the naming scheme sketched by you more :)
09:24:45  <planetmaker> makes clear what the file does
09:24:57  <Rubidium> so forcing something just for the case when someone failed to make it clear it was an AI
09:25:19  <Ammler> canset.trains.indusytry.snowline.etc.grf
09:25:26  <planetmaker> Rubidium: it's not forcing as it works without. But it's about recommending
09:25:52  <peter1138> Open the tar and you shall see...
09:26:13  <Ammler> yeah, I fear you need to do that 1. time.
09:26:27  <Ammler> specially to check if the grf is inside too.
09:27:29  <planetmaker> like it's a good idea to have a current virus scanner - but you're not required to
09:29:26  <Yorick> how to set custom fonts on openttd?
09:29:41  <Rubidium> read readme.txt?
09:29:59  <Yorick> "open your configurationfile and add a desired font for small/medium/-and large_font" but there is no large_font, small_font or medium_font
09:30:22  <Rubidium> then your openttd doesn't support it
09:30:28  <Yorick> ?
09:30:45  <Yorick> it's trunk
09:30:47  <Rubidium> build without freetype support and such
09:30:56  <Yorick> ^^
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09:53:41  <Yorick> ld: cannot find -lintl
09:54:33  <fmauNeko> Yorick: gettext-devel ?
09:54:40  <Yorick> freetype
09:54:56  <dih> where is the difference between PlayerByte and PlayerID ?
09:55:03  <fmauNeko> Yorick: libintl is in gettext :p
09:55:31  <Yorick> dih: probably in player_type.h
09:55:51  <Yorick> fmauNeko: and why does it want gettext
09:55:56  <dih> i did not ask WHERE it is i asked where the DIFFERENCE is
09:55:59  <fmauNeko> hmm, don't know :p
09:57:18  <Yorick> playerID is type Owner
09:57:30  <Noldo> dih: one is TineEnumT<Owner> other
09:58:15  <dih> uint16
09:58:42  <Noldo> What is that TinyEnumT<> anyway?
09:58:43  <dih> but then the Player struct holds 'index' which is PlayerByte
10:01:10  <Rubidium> PlayerID is an enum of undefined size, PlayerByte is a 'wrapper' for that enum with defined size
10:01:33  <Rubidium> and the defined size is needed if one wants to use OTTD's savegame mechanism
10:01:38  <Noldo> nice
10:03:09  <dih> what is it's size Rubidium ?
10:03:44  <Rubidium> the size of what?
10:04:03  <dih> TinyEnumT<Owner> ?
10:04:07  <Noldo> dih: it's byte
10:04:12  * dih runs
10:07:59  <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r13708 /branches/0.6/ (12 files in 2 dirs):
10:08:01  <CIA-3> OpenTTD: [0.6] -Backport from trunk:
10:08:01  <CIA-3> OpenTTD: - Fix: Possible buffer overflow in string truncation code (r13700)
10:08:03  <CIA-3> OpenTTD: - Fix: Handle SETX(Y) properly when truncating a string instead of ignoring it and returning a too long string (r13699)
10:08:03  <CIA-3> OpenTTD: - Fix: In some cases the (sound) mixer could overflow causing artefacts in the sound [FS#2120] (r13695)
10:08:05  <CIA-3> OpenTTD: - Fix: Do not rely on .tar files always ending with a block of zeros (r13693)
10:08:05  <CIA-3> OpenTTD: - Fix: Make sure a command is ran in the context of autoreplace or not (r13691)
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10:14:02  <Yorick> you should not only do r13693, but also the fix to it ;)
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10:18:57  <Rubidium> there is no fix for 13693
10:19:23  <Yorick> 95*
10:19:55  <Rubidium> done that
10:20:16  <Rubidium> but it's totally pointless to add that to the 0.6.2-RC1 changelog
10:20:36  <peter1138> Holy crap!
10:20:44  <peter1138> I didn't realise Yorick was our project manager now.
10:21:04  <Gekz> wtf?
10:21:05  <Gekz> he is?
10:21:08  <Yorick> not
10:21:11  <ln> of course he is
10:21:14  <Celestar> he bought us :)
10:21:16  <Celestar> and he pays us :D
10:21:21  <Gekz> in cookies.
10:21:27  * Yorick pays celestar a cookie
10:21:39  <ln> Gekz: do you know someone whose nick begins with Y that is not a project manager?
10:21:48  <Gekz> yes.
10:22:14  <Celestar> Ya-Ya Sisterhood
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10:22:34  <Rubidium> ln: you?
10:23:30  <dih> Yorick is the mascot
10:23:55  <Gekz> oh
10:23:59  <Gekz> New Caledonia kicked ass btw.
10:24:20  <Noldo> yours?
10:24:21  <Gekz> My French speaking is now +1.
10:25:00  <Celestar> when is 0.6.2RC1 planned for release?
10:25:11  <Gekz> wtf is a plan
10:25:13  <Rubidium> somewhere in the future?
10:25:39  <dih> :-P
10:25:46  <dih> in the NEAR future
10:26:05  <Celestar> are we measuring it in microseconds? :P
10:26:38  <dih> if you want to watch numbers change all the time for weeks, you can if you like
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10:27:33  <Yorick> we are measuring it in square pieces of Rubidium
10:28:38  <Noldo> speak for yourself
10:29:08  * Celestar pulls off his sock and stuffs it into Yorick's trap :P
10:29:19  <dih> Yorick: you are annoying
10:29:29  <Yorick> dih: again?
10:29:35  <dih> no - still
10:32:13  <Rubidium> Celestar: if you want to count in µs: going to take at least millions of them ;)
10:32:25  <Celestar> daaaaamn
10:33:28  <dih> :-D
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10:34:56  <Eddi|zuHause2> g
10:35:07  <Rubidium> yay ;)
10:35:19  <Eddi|zuHause2> err... where did that come from?
10:35:21  <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r13709 /branches/0.6/src/lang/ (20 files): [0.6] -Backport from trunk: language updates.
10:37:18  <Celestar> do we still support NO_DEBUG_MESSAGES?
10:37:51  <Rubidium> why wouldn't we?
10:37:59  <Celestar> because it fails compiling :D
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10:38:49  <Rubidium> you broke it ;)
10:40:01  <Celestar> Rubidium: we have direct reference to _debug_SOMETHING_level in .cpp files. with NO_DEBUG_MESSAGES, they don'T exist. the question is whether just to do an #ifndef NO_DEBUG_MESSAGES around those parts of the code
10:41:33  <TiberiusTeng> Rubidium, I hava a little question about that PNG loading stuff in spritecache.cpp
10:41:53  <Rubidium> and you're asking me? :)
10:41:55  <Celestar> Rubidium: and no, SmatZ broke it, not me :P
10:42:16  <TiberiusTeng> why isn't the PNG being loaded at the same time with GRF sprite, but before any non-sprite checking/loading stuff ?
10:42:28  <SmatZ> mmm gamelog? :-x
10:42:29  <TiberiusTeng> because you commited that fix in trunk, r13692 :p
10:42:46  <Rubidium> lol ;)
10:42:53  <Celestar> SmatZ: yeah, for example (we have other places too)
10:42:59  <Rubidium> Celestar: like where?
10:43:03  <peter1138> npf
10:43:11  <Celestar> Rubidium: like gamelog.cpp:120,324
10:43:23  <Rubidium> that's gamelog
10:43:28  <Rubidium> npf is guarded by ifdef
10:43:34  <Rubidium> and openttd.cpp is also gamelog
10:43:45  <TiberiusTeng> IMO if the PNG is used to replace some GRF sprites, it should be loaded when we actually try to load the GRF sprite ...
10:43:55  <TiberiusTeng> so I was wondering why spritecache.cpp doing that
10:43:59  <Celestar> Rubidium: good point :D
10:44:14  <TiberiusTeng> and I'm not really sure who to consult about these sprite stuff, actually.
10:44:16  <peter1138> yeah, the npf one is already guarded
10:44:30  <Rubidium> TiberiusTeng: I have no idea; I just forgot to set a variable in one exit case, don't know more about it than that I did forget it
10:44:39  <peter1138> so yes, it's safe to just ifndef them out
10:44:39  <Celestar> we also get a good buncho warnings (mostly empty if) with that flag.
10:44:57  <Celestar> k. want me to do this?
10:45:08  <Celestar> it'd feel good to make a commit :P
10:45:44  <peter1138> TiberiusTeng: Isn't the sprite only loaded the first time it is used, for both PNG and GRF sprites?
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10:46:52  <Celestar> why isn't just DEBUG(gamelog,0) something being used there is the question ...
10:46:59  <TiberiusTeng> peter1138, yes, but seems if someone try to use a sprite as a non-sprite or vice versa, it'll get reloaded ...
10:47:07  <peter1138> :o
10:47:22  <TiberiusTeng> and that fix by Rubidium really fixed it, yes
10:47:51  <TiberiusTeng> (I was moving the entire PNG loading stuff below, above the place actually loading GRF sprite, and that worked too)
10:50:45  <Celestar> peter1138: <= something like this?
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10:57:26  <SmatZ> Celestar: you can #ifdef whole GamelogPrintDebugProc and GamelogPrintDebug
10:57:29  <SmatZ> I think
10:57:49  <Celestar> SmatZ: why not using DEBUG(gamelog,.. )=
10:57:51  <Celestar> ?
10:58:03  <SmatZ> Celestar: it prints only one line
10:58:10  <Celestar> aaand?
10:59:25  <SmatZ> GamelogPrintDebug() prints to debug output
11:00:50  <Celestar> SmatZ: does it print any message?
11:01:11  <Celestar> besides "gamelog" ?
11:04:09  <SmatZ> current solution saves calls to GamelogPrint when debug level is too low
11:04:32  <SmatZ> it can be changed to work in a different way
11:04:42  <Noldo> profile!
11:04:48  <SmatZ> so it is called every time with different debug level somewhere in a static variable
11:05:26  <SmatZ> no need to profile, the performance impact is near to zero
11:05:33  <Noldo> :)
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11:14:20  <SmatZ> Celestar you could use this...
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11:21:58  <SmatZ> Celestar, are you here?
11:23:23  <Celestar> yeah
11:23:24  <Celestar> sorry :P
11:24:08  <Celestar> SmatZ: what does the diff change?
11:25:20  <SmatZ> Celestar: it doesn't use _debug_gamelog_level anymore
11:25:46  <SmatZ> fixed :-P
11:25:48  <Celestar> well then, go for it? ;)
11:26:00  <SmatZ> mmm but it calls whole printing stuff
11:26:06  <SmatZ> with only muted output :-x
11:26:19  <SmatZ> what do others think?
11:26:39  <Celestar> methinks you should use DEBUG() :P
11:27:08  <SmatZ> methinks you are right :-P
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12:48:42  <dih> ;-)
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12:59:40  <Eddi|zuHause2> my RMB is broken :(
13:02:55  <Celestar> buy an apple
13:03:04  <blathijs> lol
13:06:37  <Eddi|zuHause2> very logical conclusion ;)
13:10:51  <dih> ;-)
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14:06:04  <Ammler> peter1138's nice patch repo isn't available anymore :-(
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14:07:15  <peter1138> you've had weeks to get at it
14:07:57  <dih> lol
14:08:41  <SpComb> I set up my own hg repo, and have my friends clone from it whenever we play together
14:09:02  <SpComb> (assuming windows users are not my friends)
14:09:11  <dih> :-D
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14:09:54  <Yexo> SpComb: hg works perfectly fine here under cygwin (and thus windows) :p
14:10:07  <SpComb> compiling is probably the main issue
14:10:16  <SpComb> or does BuildOTTD somehow solve that problem?
14:10:16  <Ammler> peter1138: just wanted someone to show your grf presets patch...
14:10:52  <Yexo> BuildOTTD will not work with a hg repo, but gcc is available under cygwin, so compiling isn't a problem
14:13:03  <Ammler> Yexo: gcc is availabe with BOTTD
14:13:14  <Ammler> (mingw)
14:14:05  <Yexo> well, then compiling shouldn't be a problem at all (assuming your friends are not afraid of the command line :p )
14:14:45  <SpComb> installing cygwin is a bit of a pain
14:15:58  <Yexo> true, but after the installation I have access to most common unix commandline tools under windows
14:17:39  <fmauNeko> somebody can explain me the work around mercurial and svn ?
14:18:31  *** dlunch [~dlunch@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:18:31  <Yexo> what do you want to do with it?
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14:41:01  <Bloody> Where I can find OpenTTD for windows mobile 6.0?
14:41:32  <dih> in the forums
14:41:33  <glx> we don't make it
14:41:49  <dih> was a bad and wild guess
14:41:55  <Bloody> :(
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16:04:11  <fjb> Hello
16:06:39  <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r13710 /branches/0.6/ (6 files in 4 dirs): [0.6] -Prepare: for 0.6.2-RC1.
16:13:36  <ArmEagle> man.. making your own catenary (32bpp zoom) takes a lot of fiddling around..
16:15:30  <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r13711 /tags/0.6.2-RC1/ (5 files in 3 dirs): -Release: 0.6.2-RC1.
16:20:03  <fjb> Did something change in the way the sounds get played? I'm getting distorted sounds sometimes and some sounds are not played at all.
16:20:17  <Eddi|zuHause2> making a catenary is easy: plot(cosh(x))
16:20:23  <ArmEagle> heh
16:21:05  <ArmEagle> at least i have a script that does transformations on the base 3 images.
16:21:22  <planetmaker> !commit 13706
16:21:27  <planetmaker> @commit 13706
16:21:28  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: Commit by frosch :: r13706 trunk/src/mixer.cpp (2008-07-15 17:13:50 UTC)
16:21:29  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: -Fix (r13695): Small typo.
16:21:46  <planetmaker> ^ that should have fixed something with the sound if I understand correctly...
16:22:50  <fjb> planetmaker: Thank you. I'm using r13704... Time to make an upgrade...
16:23:03  <planetmaker> np
16:24:01  <planetmaker> <-- I really love this site :). Tells you what's going on in an overview and with as much details as you want :P
16:25:46  <fjb> I know that site, but didn't look at it today.
16:26:05  <planetmaker> :)
16:27:16  <fjb> Next problem is that something eats the depot orders sometimes. Is that the autoupgrade of the vehicles?
16:30:16  <Eddi|zuHause2> i have that behaviour sometimes, i never figured out why
16:30:37  <Eddi|zuHause2> do you have servicing disabled?
16:31:20  <fjb> No, service and breakdowns are enabled.
16:36:20  <Eddi|zuHause2> the behaviour i noticed was: when i send a train to the depot manually, it sometimes would cancel that depot order and head its usual way
16:36:46  <fjb> planetmaker: Sounds much better now.
16:36:49  <Eddi|zuHause2> is your problem something similar?
16:38:21  <fjb> No, I hat especially roadvecles which dind't stay in the depot after sending them there. And  I noticed depot orders of road vehicles and trains becoming invalid orders.
16:38:56  <fjb> And service at depot orders tend to send the vehicles allways to the depot.
16:39:15  <planetmaker> :)
16:39:26  <fjb> I'm using the latest yapp patch. But that things usually happen to road vehicles too.
16:41:38  <fjb> Hm, sound is still not allways playing...
16:43:52  <dih> but i seem to fail to find where the client receives it
16:45:04  <Rubidium> it receives it exactly there
16:45:38  <dih> no - that is where the server receives the packet and then sends Packet packet(PACKET_UDP_SERVER_DETAIL_INFO);
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16:45:58  <dih> and the client needs to receive that packet
16:47:27  <dih> sorry - i did not express that properly above
16:47:42  <dih> i cannot fine where the client receives PACKET_UDP_SERVER_DETAIL_INFO
16:48:15  <Eddi|zuHause2> you're still making no sense :p
16:48:29  <dih> *find
16:48:30  <dih> :P
16:49:14  <Eddi|zuHause2> that's not even what i meant ;)
16:49:23  <dih> what's not to understand? :-P
16:49:35  <dih> client sends PACKET_UDP_CLIENT_DETAIL_INFO to the server
16:49:45  <dih> server replies with PACKET_UDP_SERVER_DETAIL_INFO
16:50:13  <dih> yet i cannot fine the piece of code where the client actually receives that PACKET_UPD_SERVER_DETAIL_INFO
16:50:16  <Rubidium> actually... PACKET_UDP_CLIENT_DETAIL_INFO isn't send
16:50:42  <dih> oh?
16:50:51  <dih> how else will the client request the details?
16:51:03  <Rubidium> via tcp I reckon
16:51:16  <dih> in the multiplayer window?
16:51:30  <Rubidium> yup
16:51:41  <dih> well - openttdlib sends a PACKET_UDP_CLIENT_DETAIL_INFO :-P
16:52:09  <dih> and PACKET_UDP_SERVER_DETAIL_INFO is the one that overflows when more than 11 clients are on a game
16:52:16  <dih> which asserts :-P
16:53:42  <Rubidium> I guess you need to unify the TCP and UDP packets; so if it works over TCP is also works over UDP
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16:56:59  <dih> why on earth does that packet actually then exist?
16:57:10  <dih> i mean - i am happy - it means openttdlib can get more details
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16:57:20  <dih> but if the game actually does not use it?
16:57:32  <Rubidium> because someone had much more plans for the server list
16:57:39  <dih> ah
16:57:41  <dih> makes sense
16:57:42  <dih> ;-)
16:57:43  <Rubidium> but it never got actually implemented in the website
16:58:05  <dih> the master server code is also publicly available in the svn tree right?
16:58:12  <Rubidium> yes
16:58:25  <dih> then let's skip that here and get back to it another time ;-D
16:59:45  <dih> thank you for shedding light on that :-)
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17:53:25  <TrueBrain_DC> You guys ever survived without and :p
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17:54:12  * ln doesn't read tt-forums
17:54:29  <KingJ> I've still got my TTDLX DOS disk, just don't remove DosBox :)
17:56:06  <peter1138> tt-what?
17:59:02  <hylje> yea, what's that thing?
17:59:24  <hylje> from all i've heard it's just massively overrated
17:59:43  <TrueBrain_DC> hehe, good :)
17:59:47  <TrueBrain_DC> makes my job easier ;) Mwhahahaha :p
17:59:52  <TrueBrain_DC> have a good one all :)
17:59:56  <Eddi|zuHause2> what's a .org and a .net?
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18:00:49  <Eddi|zuHause2> what exactly is he up to?
18:01:14  <Prof_Frink> psychological warfare.
18:01:19  <yexo> Eddi|zuHause2: check the announcement on :p
18:01:36  <Eddi|zuHause2> ... right :p
18:01:58  <yexo> the servers are moved to another datacenter
18:03:18  <DaleStan> frosch123: I did finally go digging in TTD and TTDPatch code concerning that bug you informed Lakie and me about.
18:04:04  <hylje> was it but a clever ruse?
18:04:53  <Eddi|zuHause2> i don't understand that sentence
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18:19:39  <frosch123> DaleStan: Thanks, I read your FS post. Though I did not yet spend more time thinking about it. But when TTDP's solution already worked that long... The issue with cargo delivered to both industires and houses/towns looks rather unimportant to me as long as there are no available newgrfs affected.
18:20:44  <frosch123> Callback 148 might also be involved in the second issue.
18:24:37  <fjb> frosch123: Sound has still some problems, even after r13706.
18:25:28  <frosch123> fjb: Use "-s null -m null". Works quite nice for me :p
18:26:12  <fjb> :-P
18:28:09  <frosch123> Or to say it in another way: I have no clue about the sound stuff and will never notice problems as I very much dislike the sounds/music. I only fixed an obvious typo :)
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18:40:22  <Forked> huh
18:58:26  <Rubidium> fjb: I myself have no problems with the sound, so there's hardly anything I can fix
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19:01:12  <fjb> Hm, some sounds are not played. Looks randomly.
19:01:28  <SmatZ> fjb: there are only 8 sound channels
19:05:43  <blathijs> w00t, Debian packages uploaded
19:08:21  <Rubidium> :O
19:09:27  <Prof_Frink> debbie'un?
19:11:30  <joachim> did the debian discussion on the openttd package lead to anything?
19:13:31  <blathijs> joachim: Yes, it's included in contrib since a year or so
19:14:06  <joachim> ok
19:14:17  <joachim> the debian mailing list is used as a reference in wikipedia to prove openttd's legality is disputed...
19:14:37  <joachim> i think that's against their source policy
19:14:50  <joachim> as a mailing list is pretty much open to anyone
19:15:24  <Eddi|zuHause2> and a wiki is different from that how exactly?
19:16:10  <joachim> Eddi|zuHause2: it's not, that's why they require reliable sources for whatever the wikiusers contribute
19:16:57  <joachim> another wiki (with no reliable source) is not a reliable source :)
19:17:16  <Prof_Frink> [citation needed]
19:17:23  <joachim> hehe
19:17:35  <Prof_Frink> as xkcd would say
19:19:14  * MorgyN puts [citation needed] on all your cats
19:19:18  <blathijs> joachim: The discussion didn't really lead anywhere, and about a year after the discussion, one of the ftpmasters turned out to be an openttd fan :-)
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19:32:18  <Eddi|zuHause2> "disputed" is not the proper word anyway... it'd involve two parties with opposing views
19:38:28  <blathijs> Eddi|zuHause2: There were parties with opposing views on debian-legal back then
19:40:56  <ccfreak2k> 1. Buy your own .com.
19:41:07  <ccfreak2k> 2. Host a web page that says "The legality of OpenTTD is disputed."
19:41:13  <ccfreak2k> 3. Set that as your citation.
19:42:38  <Prof_Frink>
19:43:06  <Chrill> oh Prof_Frink, that site is not an existing one
19:43:17  <Prof_Frink> We then
19:43:21  <Prof_Frink> It's not disputed
19:43:29  <Prof_Frink> s/We/Well/
19:47:38  <peter1138>
19:49:56  <MorgyN> tbh it will be disputed till its in a court of law or the IP owner goes Nope its fine.
19:50:00  <MorgyN> on the record
19:50:13  <Eddi|zuHause2>
19:50:40  <MorgyN> Schrodinger's TTD
19:51:14  <MorgyN> certainly better than Pavlov's TTD
19:51:27  <MorgyN> I rang bell, Train arrived at station....
19:52:15  <Eddi|zuHause2> you meant: "*ding* *ding* *ding*" means "desync error"
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19:53:22  <Prof_Frink> No
19:53:36  <Prof_Frink> When you ring a bell, a train drives across a road
19:54:03  <Chrill> thus you must not be standing on the road
19:54:10  <glx> <Eddi|zuHause2> you meant: "*ding* *ding* *ding*" means "desync error" <-- not it's "connection lost"
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20:18:39  <Forked> tt-forums down or it just my isp acting up again..
20:18:45  <Forked> I'll kick their asses, starting with my own :)
20:19:05  <yexo> it's down for a few hours
20:19:06  <Rubidium> tt-forums lies in the trunk of some car
20:19:14  <Forked> ahh
20:19:20  <Forked> no asskicking then :\
20:21:45  <Eddi|zuHause2> why did you tell him, i'd totally have loved to see him kicking his as :p
20:27:37  <Prof_Frink> Forked: No, you can kick orudge
20:30:00  <dih> trallalla
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20:31:34  <fissanq> can anyone play online ?
20:31:56  <glx> everyone can
20:32:03  <ln> dunno, but have you seen Bjarni over there?
20:32:06  <fissanq> hmm cant find eny servers
20:32:09  <Rubidium> only not now
20:32:10  <dih> no - the guy behind the bush in kenya cannot
20:32:23  <Rubidium> as the server containing the server list is being moved
20:32:24  <peter1138> I saw a guy called 'bjarni!' in TF2...
20:32:26  <glx> you can play, but you need to know the servers :)
20:32:35  <dih> Rubidium, you got my message?
20:32:39  <dih> *messages
20:32:40  <dih> :-P
20:32:49  <fissanq> anyone know any servers ? :o
20:33:04  <dih>
20:33:15  <dih>
20:33:24  <Rubidium> yes, just haven't read them thoroughly
20:33:31  <dih> k
20:34:15  <fissanq> hmm those servers are not 0.6.1
20:34:18  <dih> nope
20:34:23  <dih> they are nightlies
20:34:33  <dih> visit
20:34:50  <fissanq> which is down
20:34:52  <dih> or join the channels #openttdFairPlay and #openttdcoop respectively
20:34:58  <dih> oh :-P
20:36:02  <dih> perhaps this helps:
20:36:18  <dih> nope
20:36:25  <dih> i am trying to reach the google cache ;-P
20:39:07  <dih> fissanq, here try this:
20:41:31  <fissanq> not working here
20:41:38  <fissanq> there it weas
20:44:46  <Forked> Prof_Frink: oh I can't kick orudge.. the forum is excellent :)
20:44:50  <orudge> also
20:44:53  <orudge> I have @, and you don't
20:44:53  <orudge> ;)
20:45:01  * Prof_Frink kicks orudge
20:45:41  <dih> run... your kick is not half has powerful as his
20:45:42  <dih> :-P
20:46:12  <Prof_Frink> Yeah, but orudge loves me.
20:46:18  <Rubidium> ieuw
20:47:35  <ln> i suppose openttd has been compiled on ARM?
20:47:56  <Rubidium> yes
20:48:15  <ln> ok, not much point in testing that then.
20:48:45  <Rubidium> and armel and mips(el) and sparc and s390 and alpha and hppa and m68k and 'the usual' stuff
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20:55:24  <ArmEagle> hmm tt-forums down?
20:55:43  <orudge> yes
20:55:45  <orudge> it's being moved
20:55:55  <ArmEagle> oh?
20:56:01  <dih> after the move it will be forums-tt
20:56:27  <orudge> well, that's a possibility, but no. :P
20:56:46  <ArmEagle> someone would have to register it first :)
20:57:40  <dih> ArmEagle, does not take that long
20:57:59  <dih> perhaps an hour or 2 depending where you register it
20:57:59  <ArmEagle> yeah
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21:17:41  <dih> page is back up :-)
21:17:42  <dih> yay
21:19:00  * glx hates Yexo (if it's host says what I think it does)
21:19:27  * Yexo hates his wireless connection :(
21:19:50  <glx> I mean th ftth part
21:20:19  <Yexo> ah, that part is true :)
21:20:29  <Yexo> 100mbit internet :)
21:20:40  <glx> wifi is silly then :)
21:21:06  <Yexo> well, the router is in the basement, and I'm on the second floor
21:21:14  <glx> and?
21:21:35  <Yexo> my connection flips every few hours (or more) :(
21:22:02  <glx> it's always possible to use a cable (not aesthetic sometimes)
21:22:40  <Yexo> we had cables in here, but the house-owner wanted us to remove them because the fire-brigade said so
21:22:44  <Yexo> so that's not really an option
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21:23:31  <Yexo> (ok, the cables were all over the stairs :p)
21:24:56  <ArmEagle> Cool, your firedepartments check for trippyness?
21:25:17  <glx> I have a cable going from ground floor to 1st floor through basement and roof
21:25:22  <ArmEagle> dih what page? Forums still aren't
21:25:31  <Yexo> I've never seen them, but the houseowner told me so
21:25:40  <Rubidium> dih: the forums are there, but don't not quite work yet
21:25:40  <dih>
21:25:49  <Rubidium> but only if you know what you're looking for ;)
21:25:50  <orudge> Forums will depend on your DNS updates
21:25:52  <ArmEagle> In 8 days I'll be here: That's a lot more cables than anything you'll ever have at home :)
21:25:54  <orudge> for the forums
21:25:57  <orudge> although you wont' be able to log in there
21:25:58  <orudge> *won't
21:26:19  <ArmEagle> ahh thanks
21:26:21  <Rubidium> yeah, that kinda times out the connection
21:29:07  <XeryusTC> ArmEagle: you're going to cz too?
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21:30:24  <Ammler> why is that closed?
21:30:25  <ArmEagle> XeryusTC aye, I'm a veteran.. my 8th time. 10th time camping like this
21:30:39  <Ammler> it is not a bug report
21:30:51  <ArmEagle> And here I am, wasting time on my stupid 32bpp-zoom catenary..
21:30:56  <XeryusTC> ArmEagle: very nice, it will be my 3rd time, i didnt go last year :P
21:31:08  <ArmEagle> heh, lucky you..
21:31:15  <XeryusTC> i'm with the [BI] folks :P
21:31:16  <ArmEagle> We almost drowned..
21:31:19  <Ammler> if I update it to HEAD, I need to open a new one?
21:31:25  <XeryusTC> we had that in 2005 too :P
21:31:49  <Ammler> isn't that kind of stupid?
21:31:51  <ArmEagle> neh.. not this bad:  (oh yeah, we had a bad start too)
21:32:25  <XeryusTC> btw, if you're going for the 8th time you must have been there the first time too?
21:32:30  <ArmEagle> yes
21:32:47  <ArmEagle> And 2 years before that we went to the predecessor: WAN (northern netherlands)
21:32:47  <Eddi|zuHause2> i almost thought when you said "cz" you were referring to the country :p
21:32:52  <ArmEagle> heh
21:33:07  <dih> Ammler: i doubt it needs updating :-P
21:33:15  <Yexo> Rubidium: the readme mentioned on the download page ( still says 0.6.0-beta5 as release version
21:33:33  <Ammler> dih, is it in trunk?
21:33:37  <XeryusTC> ArmEagle: heh, my first time was just in 2005 :P
21:33:45  <dih> Ammler: no but that file never changes :-D
21:34:40  <XeryusTC> but well, as i've said, i'm going with the [BI] folks :P
21:34:46  <XeryusTC> should be fun
21:34:53  <Ammler> well, it is still stupid
21:35:06  <XeryusTC> unfortunately we werent able to find a solution for real time beer stats :(
21:35:30  <ArmEagle> heh that's an idea.. we should put some waterflow meter in there..
21:35:49  <Ammler> (I mean the comment of closing...)
21:36:07  <dih> Ammler: the command has no hooks defined
21:36:18  <XeryusTC> ArmEagle: yes, but they're too expensive for something like that :P
21:36:23  <dih> and what happens if it's issued on a network server while clients are connected
21:36:27  <Eddi|zuHause2> yeah, we do have "resetengines" which basically serves the same purpose
21:36:45  <XeryusTC> and the cheap ones break too easily when you have air flowing through it :P
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21:37:07  <Eddi|zuHause2> dih: but that was not the reason for closing
21:37:16  <dih> nope
21:37:30  <dih> the reason for closing is that there is no work on the current console
21:37:38  <Ammler> no
21:37:39  <dih> or no additions to the current console
21:37:47  <Ammler> the reason was "do not change GRF"
21:37:55  <dih> does?
21:38:01  <dih> oh
21:38:12  <dih> you mean - don't load a grf in a running game
21:38:15  <dih> yes - makes sense
21:38:52  <Eddi|zuHause2> the problem is that "running game" includes "scenario map with no industries yet"
21:38:54  <Ammler> yoricks patch has that hook you asked about, btw. :P
21:39:14  <dih> there are a few hooks... :-P
21:39:35  <dih> you should only allow it from scn editor, or single player
21:39:42  <dih> or even better
21:39:56  <dih> create a gui button in the scn editor
21:40:06  <Ammler> dih: I can't, it is closed!
21:40:07  <dih> then you dont need no console command and not hooks
21:40:22  <dih> do the work first
21:40:29  <dih> then show the patch
21:40:38  <dih> then you have a higher chance of getting it reopened
21:43:43  <Ammler> mÀh
21:43:48  <Ammler> :-)
21:44:44  <Ammler> but that means, you should not use FS to post patches...
21:44:56  <Ammler> only if you want those included in trunk
21:45:42  <Ammler> I thought, it is also something like a repo for patches...
21:48:13  <dih> yeah - because says
21:48:14  <dih> :-P
21:49:32  <ccfreak2k> One person made an online "patch vending machine" for fceu once.
21:49:54  <ccfreak2k> You could mix and match several patches/options, then it spit out the patched binary and/or source.
21:50:56  <Ammler> then sorry about, will use tt-forums next time.. :-)
21:54:49  <dih> :-P
21:55:14  <dih> if you really want people to look at it, bugs or here :-P
21:56:13  <Ammler> well, was just happy about closing, but as I saw the reason...
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22:39:47  <Ammler> what about calling those functions (reseteconomy and resetengines) with the apply button on the GRF GUI?
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22:49:57  <Ammler>
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22:57:55  <Eddi|zuHause2> Ammler: no, why would you do that, when just reordering the catenary grf?
22:58:25  <Eddi|zuHause2> especially if the command can have nasty sideeffects with inflation
22:58:27  <Ammler> but it is the right place, if you do it over gui, isn't?
22:59:15  <Ammler> you could detect, if you add a grf or just reorder...
23:00:06  <Eddi|zuHause2> don't even attempt that..
23:00:59  <Ammler> well, the sideeffect is not nasty
23:01:09  <Ammler> it will "just" reset inflation.
23:01:28  <Ammler> afaik :-)
23:01:43  <Eddi|zuHause2> that is totally enough of a reason to not do it
23:02:10  <Ammler> well, ctrl+click isn't good either.
23:02:42  <Ammler> so it would need a 2. apply or reset button...
23:05:42  <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause2: do you know how devs like that newgrf gui patch in general?
23:06:07  <Ammler> the drag'n'drop is awesome.
23:06:13  <Eddi|zuHause2> the only real concern was the size, afaik
23:06:51  <Eddi|zuHause2> but you should probably ask the devs :p
23:07:02  <Ammler> I really enjoed the wwottdgd configuration with it.
23:07:17  *** Nev [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:07:17  <Ammler> they seems silent currently :-)
23:07:48  <Eddi|zuHause2> you just need to highlight them enough times :p
23:08:00  <Ammler> :-P
23:08:01  <Eddi|zuHause2> and nag about it :p
23:08:13  <Ammler> nah, I do that enough all the time...
23:08:32  <Eddi|zuHause2> they'll have no other choice than to reply to you :p
23:08:46  <Ammler> :-D
23:09:15  <Ammler> we have quite a nice collection for our client side patch pack already.
23:10:20  <Ammler> I do not need to push patches, which can be used independent from server...
23:11:13  <Ammler> and planetmaker is going to be a pro with keeping those patches up2date :-)
23:12:27  <Ammler> I would much more like to see the rivers in the game, if I could wish :-)
23:13:12  <Eddi|zuHause2> the design document is there, you just have to implement it :p
23:13:34  <Ammler> nah, I am happy with adding the button, like TTDPatch.
23:15:15  <Ammler> I can't code new things, just copy from somewhere else...
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23:21:43  <Ammler> well, time to sleep over...
23:21:46  <Ammler> goog night all
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23:22:33  <Gekz> goog night.
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