Log for #openttd on 26th August 2008:
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00:00:11  <Celestar> I remember just rewriting it (=
00:01:28  <Celestar> and it's in alpha state (=
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00:08:03  <Zuu> Good night everybody!
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00:26:41  <Celestar> this->InitilalizeSleepSequence();
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00:38:44  <Yeggstry> can someone explain the transfer money to me? I mean, the vehicle gets a "transfer" credit, but does that money become part of the rest of the journey? So you get the transfer + rest of journey money at the end?
00:41:44  <Belugas> only when the journey ends with an order that is not a transfer
00:41:55  <Belugas> there's a wiki page on this :)
00:42:49  <Yeggstry> I did see :P I just didn't see a lot of the money
00:43:12  <Yeggstry> for instance, I had an oil tanker setup that dropped oil at docks 11k worth in transfer
00:43:25  <Yeggstry> then had trucks transferring to a nearby oil refinery
00:43:46  <Yeggstry> but the amount was no where near 11k when the trucks finished transferring
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00:54:09  * TrueBrain hugs Belugas
00:55:34  <Belugas> :)
00:55:48  <Belugas> kiss kiss kiss!
00:55:58  <TrueBrain> ieuw :p
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06:00:36  <Smoky555> hi all
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06:01:32  <Smoky555> whho can tell me,. does SVN mailing list is available now or not?
06:32:41  <Forked> urgh.. tramstation in the middle of town with 800+ passengers.. the city has 2666 people
06:33:05  <Forked> and 560 people heading towards it from the big trains tation
06:33:18  <Forked> and I was really suppose to be at work 30 minutes ago :)
06:33:23  <hylje> well of course people want to get to the centrum
06:33:59  <Forked> sorta sucks without remote connect station :)
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06:40:56  <planetmaker> g'morning
06:41:56  <Forked> and I have got to run, afk
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07:31:21  * Celestar scratches his head
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07:42:18  <Celestar> why is valgrind that damn slow :P
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08:03:35  <TinoDidriksen> Because Valgrind is just that thorough.
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08:05:51  <Celestar> it's awesome 8)
08:06:02  <rortom> morning
08:06:08  <rortom> valgrind is awesome
08:06:26  <rortom> the only tool under windows that is nearly equally is very expensive ..
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08:09:04  <extspotter> hi
08:09:17  <extspotter> can anyone help me with grfcodec
08:10:06  <peter1138> grfcodec -d -p2 file.grf
08:10:32  <extspotter> ?
08:10:48  <extspotter> is that the grf I need
08:10:55  <extspotter> to decode it
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08:11:11  <Celestar> peter1138: I have started to rewrite the cargo_list cache for LoadUnloadStation
08:11:33  <Forked> Is there a.. actually I'll check the wiki first
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08:12:23  <Celestar> and I still don't understand CargoList::Truncate
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08:12:51  <Forked> there a way to increase the penalty to tram/bus stations when it comes to generating passengers? Or can I set a "This station can only hold X passenger" .. Feels a bit silly with 900 people on one busstop/tile :)
08:13:51  <Celestar> Forked: nope. This would mean mangling the passenger generation code.
08:14:10  <Celestar> Forked: it will be done, but only if the first incarnation of cargodest is finished, because it has nothing to do with cargodest.
08:14:45  <Forked> You spoke of some penalty yesterday, I thought at the moment it was something you put in with cargodest :)
08:19:02  <Celestar> yes
08:19:14  <Celestar> there is a penality for the number of passengers GOING TO a bus/tram stop
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08:26:33  <Forked> aha
08:26:35  <Forked> :)
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08:44:47  <Celestar> meh
08:46:30  <Noldo> how trunkable is it?
08:47:20  * peter1138 ponders the feasibility of saving all cached vehicle information instead of recalculating it.
08:47:31  <peter1138> Well, it's feasible, but is it the only way...
08:48:20  <Celestar> Noldo: how trunkable is what?
08:48:34  <Celestar> peter1138: what do we gain?
08:48:46  <peter1138> It's laughably easy to create a NewGRF that will cause desyncs.
08:48:54  <Noldo> dests ofcource
08:49:20  <peter1138> Celestar, less desyncs.
08:49:43  <Celestar> Noldo: pretty .. but there are things missing apart from a thorough code review. it's all listed on the wiki
08:49:48  <Celestar> peter1138: because of newgrfs?
08:50:11  <peter1138> Yes.
08:50:37  <Celestar> what data would that be?
08:50:55  <peter1138> There's loads of it. Vehicle speed, power, weight, etc...
08:51:15  <peter1138> Cargo capacity...
08:51:17  <DaleStan> Hm... Yes, it is. For CBs that are called "on game load or when vehicle enters/leaves a depot", return different values depending on whether the vehicle is in a depot or not
08:52:14  <peter1138> Yup.
08:52:22  <peter1138> Or lots of other vehicle variables.
08:52:26  <peter1138> Or date...
08:53:00  <Celestar> are we not opening a pandora's box there?
08:53:11  <peter1138> Celestar, no, it's already open, and has been a long time.
08:53:33  <peter1138> We've solved a lot of the problems, but basically we relying on the GRF to not do anything like that.
08:54:41  <peter1138> *we're
08:55:07  <Celestar> then we ought to close it (=
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08:56:29  <peter1138> It needs quite some changes, I think. Especially... road vehicles.
08:57:08  <Celestar> what about completing cargodest first :P
08:57:11  <DaleStan> The grf shouldn't, and it might well be a useful (to GRF authors) feature to save cached values and then call the CBs on game load anyway. Then ignore the result, except to issue a debug message if the game-load result doesn't match the cached value.
08:58:11  <Celestar> hmpf
08:58:26  <Celestar> <= something is still wrong (=
08:59:02  <peter1138> -4 ?
08:59:08  <Celestar> exactly (=
08:59:23  <Celestar> I'm kind of wondering that too
09:00:15  <Celestar> especially since I'm asserting everywhere that this doesn't happen :P
09:00:54  <peter1138> DaleStan, quite hard to ignore the result, especially for trains where earlier decisions affect later ones...
09:01:45  <planetmaker> peter1138: just wondering: how much increased traffic would this communication of the grf calculations cause?
09:01:56  <planetmaker> Or you plan to just communication once upon loading of a map?
09:01:59  <peter1138> ...
09:02:15  <DaleStan> "Ignore" as in "use the cached value from the savegame". This does require that you do the saving of cached data you were discussing, though.
09:02:52  <peter1138> planetmaker... savegame changes.
09:04:14  <planetmaker> :) I wonder though... we had desyncs which can be resolved by re-loading the server...
09:04:23  <peter1138> Exactly.
09:04:42  <planetmaker> ignoring this communication then won't solve a thing.
09:04:45  <planetmaker> ah :)
09:13:24  <peter1138> Reloading the server causes it to recalculate all the cached values. Sometimes that'll fix things for a while, other times it'll be okay for a couple of players but no good for the rest.
09:15:16  <Celestar> peter1138:
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09:18:08  <Celestar> RFC
09:18:12  <peter1138> Why do you need that inheritance?
09:18:25  <peter1138> Hmm
09:19:02  <Celestar> you mean CargoListType?
09:19:07  <peter1138> I think I see.
09:19:13  <Celestar> cuz I have it in two classes
09:19:49  <Celestar> and I think this is the clean solution
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09:20:39  <Celestar> hm I still got a negative number again
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09:22:19  <peter1138> :o
09:22:24  <Celestar> assault of the underscores!
09:22:49  <Celestar> peter1138: I actually wanted to make DestinationList a sub-class of CargoList ...
09:22:53  <Celestar> nested class I mean
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09:23:51  <Celestar> but I thought better of it
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09:26:33  <Celestar> why is this crap negative :SS
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09:31:06  <Celestar> oh I know why
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09:32:53  <Celestar> wee I have it
09:36:47  <Forked> that New Oil system thread feels quite hostile
09:36:55  <Celestar> Forked: hm?
09:37:08  <Celestar> a hostlie thread? on the forum? NEVER!
09:37:19  <Forked> ;D
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09:38:49  <Celestar> what's it about anyway?
09:38:51  <Celestar> I don't get it
09:40:51  <Forked> makes oil refineries produce fuel that you can transport to power plants..
09:41:14  <Celestar> yeah.
09:41:18  <Celestar> don't we have newgrfs that do that?
09:41:28  <peter1138> So it's what NewGRF can do?
09:41:31  <Forked> (I thought they mostly ran on coal / nuclear / water /etc.. ) .. Are there actually large scale power plants that use fuel?
09:41:56  <peter1138> ...
09:42:09  <Forked> ok I guess I just made an idiot out of myself? =p
09:42:18  <peter1138> Your definition of fuel is wrong.
09:42:22  <Forked> ah.
09:42:23  <DaleStan> Nuclear fuel?
09:42:30  <peter1138> Coal is fuel...
09:42:36  <Forked> Well Oilbased fuel then
09:42:40  <Celestar> Forked: there are some
09:42:51  <DaleStan> They are in fact called "fuel rods".
09:42:53  <Celestar> in germany, it's about 2% of the installed peak power
09:43:04  <peter1138> Things don't 'run on' nuclear.
09:43:17  <Noldo> there is a little one that burns oil like 300 meters from where I'm now
09:43:33  <Noldo> though I think it's mostly for reserve power
09:43:35  <Forked> considering the oil prices today :)
09:44:38  <Noldo> I wonder what is the definition of fuel anyway
09:44:47  <peter1138> Coal and oil fired power plants are the bane of electric car supporters...
09:45:23  *** blathijs_ is now known as blathijs
09:45:37  <Celestar> peter1138: er not really. A coal power plant still has a significantly higher efficiency than an microscopic ICE in a normal vehicle
09:46:33  <blathijs> ICE? Internal Combustion Engine or something?
09:46:48  <Forked> The ISP I work at is owned by one of the large regional power companies, that create all their electricity from water :) wee Norway
09:47:15  <peter1138> Celestar, yes, but they like to think of el-cars as totally clean.
09:47:49  <peter1138> Forked, using tidal flow or dams?
09:47:53  <Forked> dams
09:48:06  <Forked> Started building in the 1920s
09:48:25  <Celestar> blathijs: yes
09:48:32  <Celestar> peter1138: they aren't
09:48:35  <peter1138> So not entirely without environmental cost, although that's a one-off...
09:48:57  <Celestar> peter1138: but cleaner than ICE cars with normal power mix; much cleaner with a low-fossil-fuel power mix
09:49:06  <Forked> Well no, but still better than many other options.
09:49:18  <Forked> I'd like to see more windpower in this country, place them out at sea
09:49:38  <Celestar> wind power sucks unfortunately
09:49:55  <peter1138> Or blows? :o
09:50:01  <peter1138> God that was poor humour.
09:50:02  <Forked> hrhr
09:50:13  <Celestar> peter1138: <= cargodest with cl5.diff (=
09:50:26  <peter1138> That looks better :D
09:50:45  <Celestar> peter1138: yeah
09:50:58  <Celestar> peter1138: I don't like TileLoopClearHelper but that's no cargodest problem(=
09:51:13  <Noldo> why Md5::Procrss is that high on the list=
09:51:31  <peter1138> Noldo, because it's quite expensive.
09:52:24  <Celestar> Noldo: and I have bazillions of newgrfs in my data dir
09:52:42  <Celestar> peter1138: that still doesn't explain why it is called 2 million times (=
09:53:45  <peter1138> Celestar, because it's done in chunks of 1024 bytes.
09:53:54  <Celestar> peter1138: that does indeed explain it (=
09:54:07  <peter1138> Maybe increasing that buffer size would speed it up.
09:54:25  <Celestar> it's not run in-game, is it?
09:55:06  <peter1138> No, only on start up.
09:55:20  <peter1138> Not hugely important, but if it can be sped up simply, then why not?
09:55:41  <Celestar> 0.52 seconds
09:55:47  <Celestar> that's how long it takes
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09:56:01  <peter1138> Not in debug mode ;)
09:56:15  <peter1138> s/debug mode/a debug compile/
09:56:42  <Celestar> peter1138: gotta disappoint you
09:56:47  <Celestar> it's in 64-byte chunks (=
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09:57:24  <peter1138> Ah...
09:57:40  <peter1138> Then Md5::Append() is called in 1024 byte chunks.
09:57:51  <Celestar> if it's 1k then 2million calls still sounds like 2GB worth of newgrfs :P
09:58:15  <peter1138> Hehe
09:58:46  <Celestar> lol@profile
09:58:55  <peter1138> So no point in changing that buffer size.
09:58:57  <Celestar> breadth_first_visit in fine
09:59:16  <Celestar> breadth_first_visit in file
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10:29:32  <Celestar> heh
10:29:34  <Celestar> DAMN :P
10:30:38  <Celestar> my destination cache fails gloriously when Routing is disabled
10:31:17  <peter1138> :o
10:32:54  <Celestar> well, asserts
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10:35:52  <Brianetta> Fred
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10:37:04  <Celestar> George
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10:37:25  <Noldo> anything but Sue
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10:39:47  <Celestar> heh
10:39:53  <Celestar> done
10:43:56  <Celestar> planetmaker: we need another networktest, I've done a large modification of the code
10:44:21  <planetmaker> :)
10:44:34  <Celestar> but it greatly speeds things up
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10:45:11  <planetmaker> that's nice. Well, same procedure as last time, I guess.
10:46:21  <Celestar> yeah
10:46:39  <Celestar> but maybe we could test with a network and not only a star or something (=
10:46:41  <Celestar> @openttd bugs
10:46:42  <DorpsGek> Celestar: Temporary Offline
10:47:04  <planetmaker> Celestar: sure. Let's make a point-to-point PAX game then.
10:47:24  <planetmaker> Like a number of cities connected via ICE and internal city-wide networks
10:48:04  <planetmaker> if you tell me the hg could giving it a try to update the dev server right now :)
10:48:13  <planetmaker> <--- mercurial noob :)
10:48:41  <Celestar> <= hr hr
10:48:50  <Celestar> planetmaker: can't do it today
10:49:15  <Celestar> planetmaker: hg pull; hg update should be enough for updating the stuff.
10:49:20  <planetmaker> meh :(
10:49:45  <Celestar> lunch time
10:49:59  <planetmaker> enjoy your meal :)
10:50:02  <Celestar> thanks
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11:16:59  <Celestar> planetmaker: did we use any newgrfs last time?
11:17:12  <planetmaker> IIRC no
11:17:42  <Celestar> maybe we could use one proper network-save trainset (=
11:17:45  <Celestar> safe*
11:18:19  <planetmaker> :). Celestar: if you have something in mind in particular... feel free to supply a save with those grf which you like :D
11:18:38  <planetmaker> or we could just take... NARS maybe as it also has nice towns.
11:18:45  <planetmaker> (the NA city set)
11:18:56  * Celestar shrugs
11:19:03  <Celestar> I usually only play the DBSet
11:20:53  <planetmaker> If you prefer :)
11:21:25  <peter1138> DBSet should be desync safe ;)
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11:21:39  <peter1138> It predates lots of stuff...
11:23:24  <planetmaker> k, we can use that then. Nice ICEs :)
11:24:29  <Celestar> yeah
11:24:32  <Celestar> if we play that long :P
11:24:38  <Celestar> but we can start in 1930 or summin
11:25:19  <planetmaker> is there already something worthwhile in DBSet by that time?
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11:27:05  <peter1138> ... worthwhile ...
11:27:15  <planetmaker> well. Probably wrong word :P
11:27:21  <Forked> usable
11:27:25  <peter1138> They're all usable.
11:27:43  <peter1138> It's a perfect finely tuned set ;)
11:27:46  <planetmaker> I usually start 1950 - that's why I'm asking :)
11:27:52  <peter1138> Ouch...
11:27:57  <peter1138> Starting in 1950 misses loads of good stuff.
11:28:21  <Forked> I'll try again. In what year does the first engine appear in that trainset? =p
11:28:27  <peter1138> 1920
11:28:32  <Forked> ah.
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11:36:59  <planetmaker> how do I get the current version from hg?
11:38:49  <planetmaker> hg st? hg info? I'm not sure what then the actual revision of the code is from what I get...
11:39:07  <Progman> I used hg head
11:39:40  <planetmaker> aye. Thx
11:39:49  *** Jupix2 is now known as Jupix
11:42:10  <peter1138> TrueBrain, how does developers/ work on ?
11:43:53  <TrueBrain> peter1138: well, after you added it (what you did I see)
11:43:58  <TrueBrain> we either need to wait for hg to reload ..
11:44:21  <TrueBrain> or you look now ;)
11:44:35  <TrueBrain> don't forget to set things in your hgrc ;)
11:44:52  <TrueBrain> as in:
11:44:53  <TrueBrain> cat truebrain/noai.hg/.hg/hgrc
11:44:53  <TrueBrain> [web]
11:44:53  <TrueBrain> description = NoAI patches
11:44:53  <TrueBrain> contact = TrueBrain
11:46:07  <peter1138> Hmm, didn't know they existed.
11:46:23  <TrueBrain> only if you have webhg over a repos :)
11:48:20  <peter1138> :)
11:48:46  <peter1138> Okay, changing hgrc worked... but reloading the hg server is needed for it to appear?
11:48:56  <TrueBrain> nope, already there
11:49:05  <peter1138> No, I mean the repo :)
11:49:22  <peter1138> Say if I wanted to add another repo.
11:49:36  <peter1138> What's the deal? Just poke you? ;)
11:49:41  <TrueBrain> hg doesn't scan the directory every page reload (would be rather inefficient), so it only does it once a .. day maybe
11:49:45  <TrueBrain> so if you want it to appear, poke me :p
11:50:00  <peter1138> It doesn't do it once a day as it's been there a while ;)
11:50:14  <TrueBrain> then it never rescans :p
11:50:15  <peter1138> Maybe a daily reload would be adequate?
11:50:16  <Brianetta> New look:
11:50:30  <TrueBrain> peter1138: reloading 'hg' is very troublesome .. but I will think about it :)
11:50:33  <peter1138> Or give me privs to do it, hehe
11:50:47  <TrueBrain> peter1138: like you add that many new hgs over a short period of time ;)
11:50:55  <TrueBrain> and I am almost always around, so .. ;) :p
11:51:20  <Noldo> Brianetta: I like the bit about toyland
11:51:26  <Brianetta> (:
11:51:44  <peter1138> Who does have admin rights on the server?
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11:52:10  <Brianetta> The hg server?
11:52:14  <Brianetta> Hello davis
11:52:16  <Brianetta> New game
11:52:16  <davis-> hey there
11:52:19  <peter1138> The new dedicated server.
11:52:20  <Brianetta> This time, with a newgrf
11:52:21  <TrueBrain> peter1138: Rubidium and I do
11:52:30  <davis-> whad newgrf's you enabled?
11:52:35  <Brianetta> UKRS base
11:52:39  <davis-> ah sweet
11:52:43  <Brianetta> One single solitary newgrf
11:52:48  <davis-> anyway , last game was without any desyncs
11:52:56  <Brianetta> If that causes no desyncs, I'll throw in some stations
11:52:58  <davis-> at least from what i seen
11:52:59  <peter1138> Did you change the start date back? :)
11:53:00  <Brianetta> yes
11:53:04  <Brianetta> peter1138: 1920
11:53:24  <Brianetta> In both places, since I can't remember which of start_year and start_date is the one the game uses now.
11:53:34  <davis-> added modified building costs?
11:53:35  <peter1138> Hehe
11:53:39  <Brianetta> davis: No.
11:53:40  <davis-> since it was slightly way to easy last game
11:53:42  <davis-> ah ok
11:53:47  <Brianetta> One grf at a time
11:53:53  <davis-> mhm
11:53:58  <Brianetta> until we discover which one is causing problems
11:54:05  <davis-> sounds like a plan
11:54:11  <Brianetta> Once we find which, we play with just that one
11:54:21  <Brianetta> to rule out the possibility that it's a problem with a combination
11:54:56  <Brianetta> If we have one newgrf which we know causes desyncs, the devs can perhaps look at it.
11:55:09  <Brianetta> Or, they can say "it will take too much time"
11:55:09  <davis-> yeah .. best way to do it
11:55:36  <Brianetta> Clearly, the negrf cache needs overhauling
11:55:51  <Brianetta> Everybody suspects it, including the devs
11:56:01  <Brianetta> I think it's time to savei t
11:56:10  <davis-> all we can do is try ..
11:56:29  <Brianetta> or, shock horror, have a secondary data set (an additional save file) which is only transferred at network connect
11:56:39  <Brianetta> contaiing all the volatile stuff
11:56:46  <davis-> hm
11:57:03  <davis-> iam neither good at programming , neither i ever took a look at the ottd source
11:57:07  <davis-> so ive no idea at all
11:57:14  <Brianetta> If the caches aren't flushed and stored inthe save, tey're not given to clients.
11:57:25  <davis-> ah
11:57:28  <Brianetta> So either the caches need flushing, or they need sending along.
11:57:41  <hylje> propagating bad state ahoy
11:57:56  <Brianetta> hylje: Good or bad we don't care; it just needs tobe the same
12:00:23  <davis-> it will workout
12:00:25  <davis-> somehow
12:00:45  <Celestar> back
12:01:07  <Celestar> is the server running?
12:01:40  <davis-> which?
12:01:44  <Celestar> cargodest
12:01:49  <davis-> shrugs
12:04:29  <planetmaker> Celestar: not quite. But in short time, I think :P
12:04:42  * planetmaker is slow trying to figure out things not having done before :)
12:04:48  <Celestar> heh ok
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12:07:41  <peter1138> Anyway, my code is on :D
12:08:35  <Celestar> looking
12:09:52  <davis-> :o
12:10:31  <peter1138> Lots of merges, unfortunately, but never mind :)
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12:15:32  <Celestar> peter1138: how do I obtain a diff between cargodest and trunk?
12:16:36  <peter1138> hg diff -r <revision of last svn change>
12:17:12  <peter1138> Which is fca6f9cf02ac, based on your repo on the server.
12:17:28  <Celestar> heh
12:17:29  <davis-> wow i feel so un-nerdy here
12:17:39  <Celestar> peter1138: that means I need an hg checkout, righT? (=
12:17:42  <Celestar> of trunk I mean
12:17:50  <peter1138> No.
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12:18:39  <Celestar> ah!
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12:19:30  <planetmaker> 2f548902356c <-- that's the version for me, if I pull from the cargodest repo
12:19:47  <peter1138> Yes. That's not the last svn changeset.
12:20:19  <planetmaker> hm...
12:20:26  <Celestar> it worked, thanks planetmaker
12:20:29  <Celestar> thanks peter1138
12:20:58  <peter1138> Gives you a nice diff to review :)
12:21:17  * peter1138 ponders doing the custom catenary.
12:21:37  <Celestar> peter1138: yeah. 5500 lines of it
12:22:07  <peter1138> Gah, the elrail tables use absolute sprite IDs :o
12:22:18  <Celestar> sorry peter1138
12:22:22  <Celestar> that's my doing
12:22:27  <Celestar> years ago (=
12:22:35  <peter1138> Yes I know
12:23:14  <Celestar> I just wanted to accelerate your search for a scapegoat :P
12:23:52  <peter1138> Hmm, well I shall change all those tables to use an enummed offset.
12:24:13  <peter1138> Or I can subtract the base and add the new base each time.
12:24:23  <peter1138> Changing the tables is better I think :)
12:25:04  <Celestar> I quite agree
12:26:05  <Celestar> I can't beleive I've produced 5300 lines of diff with cargodest
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12:38:27  <peter1138> Heh
12:40:37  <FauxFaux> Could be under 500 characters changed. :)
12:40:46  <davis-> :]
12:47:24  <Celestar> true :D
12:47:34  <Celestar> but I added 300 lines to console_cmds.cpp alone about :P
12:48:14  <FauxFaux> Actually, that was mis-counting 7 lines as 6, and the file headers are a little longer than that, too.
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13:02:55  * peter1138 fudges with Celestar's code
13:03:03  <Celestar> peter1138: ?
13:03:10  <peter1138> The elrail drawing stuff :)
13:03:20  <Celestar> ah
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13:06:41  <peter1138> Done.
13:07:05  <peter1138>
13:07:08  <peter1138> Untested ;)
13:08:12  <Celestar> nice (=
13:08:29  <Belugas> fudge... got to eat...
13:09:08  * ben_goodger has doritos
13:09:55  <peter1138> Heh, I just ate some fudge :)
13:09:59  <peter1138> Celestar:
13:10:07  <peter1138> Looks sane?
13:10:29  <Celestar> just reading through it
13:10:48  <Celestar> but for what I can tell yes.
13:10:52  <Celestar> let's hope it doesn't slow
13:10:59  <peter1138> Shouldn't do.
13:11:02  <Celestar> because the elrail drawing code is horribly slow
13:11:32  <Celestar> peter1138: while you're messing with it, can you change the Qt comments to javadoc comments?
13:11:34  <peter1138> There's enough maths there that an additional addition is hardly stressy.
13:11:40  <peter1138> Er...
13:13:00  <Celestar> peter1138: "//!" to "///<" ?
13:14:09  <Celestar> just so that we're consistent, and those lines show up in the diff anyway
13:14:39  <peter1138> Oh.
13:14:49  <peter1138> Well, that's a separate diff I think.
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13:15:14  <fjb> Hello
13:15:17  <davis-> hi
13:15:33  <Celestar> peter1138: as I said, you're modding the lines anyway
13:16:43  *** Brianetta [] has joined #openttd
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13:17:40  <peter1138> True.
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13:36:19  <Celestar> peter1138: we're about to nettest cargodest with the new cache
13:38:55  <Gekz> cache?
13:38:58  <Gekz> new cache?
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13:43:49  <peter1138> Cool
13:43:52  <peter1138> I can't play ;)
13:44:34  <Forked> I want to :\ in a couple of hours !
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13:45:05  <Celestar> Gekz: cargodest had a noticable impact on performance. It no longer has
13:45:24  <Gekz> :O
13:45:25  <Gekz> nice.
13:45:29  <peter1138> I didn't notice it ;)
13:45:37  *** guru3 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:45:54  <fjb> IT people like to cache, especially if customers are starting to ask too much.
13:46:14  <Celestar> peter1138: You could only notice it when you had around 20000 units of a single cargotype waiting at a station, and that at like a dozen stations
13:47:42  <peter1138> 14:24  droncho> New news from jacktimeline: Changeset [2805]: Cleanup.
13:47:49  <peter1138> Nice verbose commit messages ;)
13:48:03  <Celestar> peter1138: where's that from?
13:48:12  <peter1138> kackd
13:48:13  <peter1138> er
13:48:16  <peter1138> jackd
13:48:16  <peter1138> :o
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14:11:37  <Eddi|zuHause> <peter1138> Celestar, yes, but they like to think of el-cars as totally clean. <- the main "clean" argument is that it shifts the exhaust gases from the inner city to one single big industrial area... which is imho a big enough gain already (this applies also to trams and trolley busses)
14:11:59  <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: that is also a valid point, except for CO2
14:12:47  <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: also .. any other emmisions are lower in normal powerplants than in mobile ICEs
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14:16:22  <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: plus it's easier to replace 5 coal power plants by clean ones than a fleet of a million vehicles
14:17:20  <peter1138> True.
14:17:22  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, they should get their butts going in making electric cars affordable and run in magnitudes of 200km per refill
14:17:30  <Eddi|zuHause> but... the oil lobby...
14:17:31  <peter1138> Yes.
14:17:34  <peter1138> Bastards.
14:19:28  <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: it's not only the oil lobby
14:19:33  <peter1138> Gah.
14:19:40  <Celestar> neither politicians nor the car makes have an interest in EVs
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14:20:58  <peter1138> . o O ( fuel taxes )
14:21:08  <fjb> The northern american railways should slowly begin to build catenary...
14:21:28  <fjb> We had peak oil and peak coal...
14:22:31  <peter1138> And they *crushed* the GM EV1.
14:24:01  <peter1138> Brilliant!
14:24:09  <Celestar> peter1138: exactly
14:24:17  <Celestar> peter1138: the EV1 was a problem
14:24:18  <peter1138> The Tesla Roadster is built in England.
14:24:23  <peter1138> But it won't be sold here.
14:24:34  <peter1138> Celestar, it was too good?
14:24:46  <Celestar> peter1138: er you had to rent the battery
14:24:51  <peter1138> Heh
14:25:09  <Celestar> it cost a shitload and came without battery
14:25:21  <peter1138> Unfortunately the Tesla Roadster doesn't exactly look like a very practical car.
14:26:12  <ben_goodger> it's practical enough, for what it is --- an overpowered sports car
14:26:16  <peter1138> Quite.
14:26:30  <peter1138> It does 200 miles on a charge apparently. Probably not flat out ;)
14:26:36  <Celestar> I *hope* the GM Volt will be a success
14:27:14  <peter1138> We need road-catenary ;)
14:27:19  <peter1138> Hmm, dodgems
14:28:15  <Celestar> peter1138: I've thought of road-catenary as well
14:28:33  <Celestar> it would be sufficient on the highway
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14:29:58  <Celestar> peter1138: but it has problems
14:30:09  <Celestar> peter1138: trucks need to fit, so cars would need an ENOURMOUS pantograph
14:30:13  <Celestar> at least 3 m
14:30:19  <peter1138> Yup
14:31:44  <Celestar> it needs a decent pressure for at least 40kW
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14:32:06  <Celestar> but then it mustn't be heavy enough to have a car high-centering itself in every turn
14:33:00  <Neo12> hi, ich have a question concerning updating ottd with the newest nightly under ubuntu, is there anybody who can help me with that issue
14:34:02  <Celestar> no because you neglected to state the issue
14:34:30  <Forked> is a good start :)
14:35:37  <peter1138> Sheesh, a 2006 Prius with 98,000 miles on the clock...
14:35:44  <Forked> taxi?
14:36:43  <Celestar> peter1138: our 2006 530d is similar
14:36:55  <Neo12> ok, can you give me a short tuto how to do the update,  I downloaded the newest nightly and extracted it, than I complied the nightly without errors but I can not run the game
14:37:06  <peter1138> "bin/openttd"
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14:37:45  <Eddi|zuHause> "make run"
14:37:55  <Neo12> i did that
14:38:55  <Eddi|zuHause> my crystal ball says that you didn't install libsdl-dev, ignored the big warning "building dedicated only" and now come here because no GUI opens
14:39:29  <Forked> oh and copy the grf's to bin/data ?
14:40:05  <planetmaker> shouldn't be needed, if they're in the proper location.
14:40:21  * Forked never does proper anyhting :\
14:40:40  <Eddi|zuHause> "proper" meaning ~/.openttd/data
14:40:44  <planetmaker> look at the readme. For each OS a dir exists where all installations of OpenTTD look for their grf
14:40:55  <Forked> hm :)
14:41:13  <Ammler> or at our blog :-)
14:41:27  <planetmaker> <-- read the latest article, Forked :)
14:41:49  <Eddi|zuHause> which is good when you share files between builds, but not when you share the same build with different users
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14:43:11  <Ammler> I use also ~/.openttd for my grfs
14:43:36  <Ammler> on the server, I have the originals at /usr/local...
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14:44:22  <SpComb> Logs:
14:44:22  <SmatZ_> !logs
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14:58:53  <glx> Neo12: what happens when you start it ?
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15:00:10  <Forked> openttd does not run too well in remote desktop when you only have 1Mbit outbound on your dsl
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15:05:13  <peter1138> Odd that.
15:05:15  <Neo12> glx: I can't start it there is no executable file
15:05:34  <glx> did you compile?
15:05:41  <Neo12> yes
15:05:55  <glx> it should be in bin
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15:08:23  *** fjb [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:09:07  <Neo12> no ?!?
15:09:38  *** grumbel [] has joined #openttd
15:09:39  <Neo12> do I need something more than the nightly
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15:22:34  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, you need to tell us exactly what steps you took and what output they gave
15:28:53  <Belugas> and of course, you have to verify presence of original data files :)
15:31:47  *** fjb_ is now known as fjb
15:33:21  <Belugas> have you tried svn instead of the sources in the zip?
15:35:00  <yorick> the source zip does not move the bin to the /bin directory, someone reported that before
15:35:27  <Eddi|zuHause> i thought that was a windows problem...
15:35:39  <Eddi|zuHause> or rather an MSVC problem
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15:41:32  <glx> that's MSVC only indeed
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15:48:35  <Sacro|Work> can't you tell it where to move it#?
15:49:20  <glx> maybe
15:49:31  <peter1138> Just click the run button :D
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16:04:04  <Neo12> sorry for the delay,  I've tried but it still doesnt work
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16:11:32  <Eddi|zuHause> and we have still no idea WHAT THE HELL you are "trying"
16:11:33  <glx> hmm moving openttd.exe to bin is doable, but release process will be harder
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16:12:44  <yorick> he left
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16:26:33  <fjb> Moin frosch123
16:26:48  <frosch123> quak fjb :)
16:27:01  <fjb> :-)
16:27:48  <frosch123> already snow on your side?
16:29:44  <Belugas> YURK!!
16:29:50  <Belugas> two words i HATE!
16:29:52  <Belugas> R and S
16:29:59  <Belugas> guess the words ;)
16:30:02  <frosch123> oh, sorry, should have said S word :)
16:30:08  <Belugas> lol
16:30:51  <frosch123> O, R and S are taken now, we cannot continue that that long...
16:31:13  <Belugas> O?
16:31:43  <frosch123> in context with MB
16:32:22  <Eddi|zuHause> i have a B word to offer :Ì
16:32:24  <Eddi|zuHause> :p
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16:35:41  <Sacro|Work> Sir KillaloT?
16:35:48  * Sacro|Work misses robot wars :(
16:36:45  * TrueBrain gives Sacro|Work a cookie:
16:37:46  <peter1138> S?
16:38:23  <peter1138> Oh.. snow :o
16:38:50  * Prof_Frink drives hypno-disc into Sacro|Work's legs
16:39:01  <Sacro|Work> :o
16:44:02  <fjb> frosch123: No snow yet.
16:47:28  * frosch123 was just wondering as it is no longer 30° every day on his side
16:50:13  <fjb> It's actually 19°C and not raining.
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17:19:06  <Wolf01> hello
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17:20:28  <fjb> Hello Wolf01
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17:24:25  <Wolf01> peter1138! you were playing with bridges, do you know that when a company goes bankrupt all his bridges are removed, ROAD bridges too!
17:24:48  <peter1138> I was playing with bridges, was I?
17:25:04  <Wolf01> catenary on aqueducts
17:25:12  <Wolf01> or something like this
17:25:13  <Wolf01> :P
17:25:32  <peter1138> I see...
17:25:58  <SmatZ_> it has been this way since TTD
17:26:03  <SmatZ_> probably TTO
17:26:26  <SmatZ_> they are not removed only when there is a vehicle on that bridge / tunnel
17:26:38  <SmatZ_> in that case owner is set to none
17:26:44  <SmatZ_> or something like that
17:28:03  <Wolf01> I didn't remember that, I played many games with the AI, so I'm so lucky that there was a vehicle of mine on every bridge made by the AI when the game tried to remove them because the AI gone bankruptcy?
17:28:45  <SmatZ_> probably
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17:29:46  <Wolf01> nice... it's difficult to avoid removing shared things when the company goes bankrupt?
17:30:24  *** Yeggs-work is now known as Yeggstry
17:31:15  <Ammler> Wolf01: how to know, that the bridge is shared?
17:31:38  <Wolf01> because all vehicles can travel on road bridges?
17:31:43  <Ammler> would be easier to just let all bridges stay.
17:31:51  <Wolf01> no, only road
17:32:03  <Ammler> but all road bridges.
17:32:07  <Wolf01> yes all
17:32:55  <Wolf01> the game leave all those stupid road constructs on the landscape but removes road bridges... why not the contrary?
17:34:01  <Ammler> maybe you should suggest that to noAI...
17:34:24  <Ammler> how can you play with that old ai :-)
17:34:59  <Wolf01> eh, I love it
17:38:24  <Eddi|zuHause> i totally loathe it...
17:38:43  <Eddi|zuHause> i have not played with AI long before i learned about TTD
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17:39:46  <Wolf01> but the main problem is not the stupid road constructs, but the bridges I use which are made by the AI
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17:40:22  <Forked> hm.. my ET-87 has 1hp .. moving kinda slow :)
17:40:40  <Forked> oh wait, nm
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17:41:04  <Forked> cool.
17:41:11  <Forked> (my first game with DBXL)
17:42:14  <Eddi|zuHause> the second wagon has the power
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17:42:59  <Forked> yeah I saw :)
17:43:12  <Eddi|zuHause> it's a cute feature ;)
17:43:40  <Eddi|zuHause> i can't await version 0.9... if that has everything MB promised
17:46:36  <yorick> my chat log has glitches
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17:48:28  <fjb> If 0.9 ever gets released...
17:52:33  <peter1138> ... he'll make it TTDP-only ;)
17:52:52  *** Marduuhin [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:53:06  <fjb> Not sure. You impressed him with your plans for the level crossings.
17:53:28  <Wolf01> we can modify OTTD to let the grf think it's loaded on TTDPatch :O
17:54:02  <fjb> Then he would forbid it in the licence...
17:54:21  <fjb> But on the other hand he hates the engine pools.
17:54:24  <Wolf01> who read licenses?
17:55:09  <fjb> Same people who will not hack the the grfs so that it loads on OpenTTD anyway.
17:55:11  *** Marduuhin [] has joined #openttd
17:55:38  <Wolf01> ----> <Wolf01> we can modify OTTD to let the grf think it's loaded on TTDPatch :O
17:56:15  <Ammler> MB will also have vehicels in his set, which only runs on OTTD
17:56:24  <fjb> Why should we modify OpenTTD when a grf is easily hackable?
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17:56:44  <Wolf01> because so we don't break the license
17:56:48  <yorick> because openttd is also easily modifiable
17:56:53  <Ammler> so you just don't know him :P
17:57:04  <Belugas> guys, may I say you are pissing me off?
17:57:09  <Wolf01> XD
17:57:12  <Wolf01> hi Belugas
17:57:18  <Belugas> hello Wolf01
17:57:37  <yorick> you may, wheter we stop pissing your off is a different thing...
17:58:04  * Forked gets the popcorn and finds a frontrow seat
17:58:39  <Wolf01> peter1138, I made a remake of the swamp scenario, this time with no grfs (I only loaded some of them to make a screenshot after saving it), do you want it?
17:58:42  <glx> <Wolf01> we can modify OTTD to let the grf think it's loaded on TTDPatch :O <-- reminds me when we added support for some features used by canset ;)
18:03:41  <Eddi|zuHause> i think you are overexaggerating MBs "problem" with OpenTTD
18:04:24  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think he really has anything against it, he just gets a bit loud when something goes against his will ;)
18:04:47  <davis-> who wants chowder
18:07:12  *** insulfrog [~trainslov@] has joined #openttd
18:07:22  <insulfrog> hi
18:07:59  <davis-> hi
18:08:21  <peter1138> Argh, george's LV4 strikes again
18:08:35  <peter1138> (I've got a long vehicle that looks like it's stopped on a crossing, when it's behind it really.
18:08:39  <peter1138> )
18:09:16  <fjb> Didn't he want to make LV5 even bigger?
18:09:43  <Prof_Frink> Bigger? My my...
18:09:58  *** Progman [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:10:42  <fjb> Did the discussion about enhanced vehicle costs result in anything?
18:11:37  *** Deathmaker [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:14:30  *** Yexo [] has joined #openttd
18:14:57  <Yexo> hello
18:16:58  <fjb> Hello Yexo
18:17:45  <yorick> fjb: he wanted to make then articulated :)
18:17:56  <yorick> so you could have even longer long vehicles
18:19:25  <peter1138> Articulated is no problem.
18:19:35  <peter1138> He wanted double length vehicles.
18:19:40  <|Jeroen|> is there an offical package for pocket pc ?
18:19:52  <fjb> yorick: Yes, but not only articulated, but also every part bigger.
18:19:53  <peter1138> No.
18:20:04  <Wolf01> XDDDDD
18:20:26  *** Deathmaker [] has joined #openttd
18:20:35  <yorick> germans
18:20:55  <fjb> Darvin Award...
18:22:52  <insulfrog> hmm...
18:26:48  <davis-> :S
18:27:15  <davis-> not all germans are as incredible stupid as that guys
18:27:36  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: very old...
18:27:42  <davis-> that too
18:31:08  <dih> tri
18:31:09  <dih> tra
18:31:21  <dih> trallalla
18:31:28  <davis-> indeed
18:31:49  <dih> planetmaker, you should talk to Deathmaker
18:35:06  <Deathmaker> ?
18:35:38  <dih> well.. one creates, the other destroys
18:35:46  <dih> is it that _not_ obvious?
18:38:03  <fjb> There are dead planets.
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18:45:25  <insulfrog> Has anyone had a go at the challenges at ?
18:47:02  <insulfrog> it might be an idea to post similar challenges on the forums, but using OTTD
18:47:09  <Eddi|zuHause> dih: and which is which?
18:48:13  <Wolf01> *why* too many signals?
18:48:17  <TrueBrain> does geocities still exist?!
18:48:36  <Eddi|zuHause> apparently ;)
18:49:04  <insulfrog> yep
18:49:27  <Eddi|zuHause> i hate fixed width webpages
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18:50:18  <fjb> Webbroser windows don't have a fixed size like paper?
18:51:49  <frosch123> you can download the new TTDP 1.8 on that page :)
18:52:45  <Wolf01> uh, the game loads on OTTD :O
18:53:13  <Wolf01> with some error popups about invalid length trains
18:53:31  <SpComb> nice page
18:53:37  <insulfrog> them savegames are for TTDP only though
18:54:16  <SpComb> I like how the entire web page goes into a 10%-wide frame on the right side once you enable javascript
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18:55:20  <fjb> Hm, I see no difference after enabling Javascript.
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19:02:05  <insulfrog> Essentially, them sort of challenges are a great idea and basically you load up OTTD, set up a network, then make challenges (e.g. like a few badly built junctions), then post the challenge as a savegame and a readme to describe the challenge
19:02:33  <insulfrog> also put numbered signs to help out
19:03:16  <yorick> fjb: refresh
19:03:37  <insulfrog> post that challenge and someone has to complete the challenge and post the solution
19:03:43  *** xintron [] has joined #openttd
19:03:44  <fjb> yorick: What would I do without you?
19:03:49  <Eddi|zuHause> may i throw in the sim city scenarios... "this city has suffered from <insert desaster>. rebuild it and reach a population/income/whatever within 10 years"
19:04:10  <insulfrog> similar
19:04:15  <xintron> Evening :) Would you guys recommend upgrading elictrifyed railroads to mono or build new railroads?
19:04:34  <insulfrog> upgrade to elec first
19:04:44  <Eddi|zuHause> play a newgrf set, they almost never have universally useful maglevs
19:05:04  <peter1138> Wolf01: bung it in the scenarios forum?
19:05:05  <insulfrog> then improve existing network
19:05:42  <yorick> fjb: die from forgetting to eat, probably
19:05:54  <xintron> insulfrog: I have elec atm and in a few years mono will be available
19:06:43  <insulfrog> I would wait until maglev becomes available (I haven't used monorail for a while)
19:07:16  <xintron> insulfrog: hrmm... ok. So still use elec when expanding or build mono then?
19:07:41  <xintron> and then upgrade mono and elec to maglev when it becomes available?
19:09:08  <insulfrog> hmm... upgrading can be difficult
19:09:17  <Eddi|zuHause> there is nothing interesting happening after 2000, that's the only flaw of the DBSet
19:09:43  <xintron> insulfrog: yes it can
19:10:17  <insulfrog> upgrade when maglev becomes available
19:10:26  <insulfrog> and use maglev
19:10:41  <xintron> and still use elec even thou mono is available?
19:10:46  <Eddi|zuHause> the daylength patch helps working around this problem, fortunately :)
19:11:24  <insulfrog> mostly I don't upgrade but any new routes I build, I will use mono or maglev
19:12:10  <yorick> fjb: don't forget to breath, too!
19:12:31  <fjb> yorick: Thank you
19:13:06  <insulfrog> (brb, just going to the little room)
19:14:10  <Eddi|zuHause> einatmen... ausatmen... einatmen... :p
19:14:11  <fjb> Eddi|zuHause: I tried to paint some BR 146, 152 and 189, but I failed. Doesn't look like I wanted it.
19:14:24  <fjb> :-P
19:14:58  <Eddi|zuHause> do english speaking people have that kind of classic (blonde-) jokes?
19:14:59  <xintron> What NewGRF's would you guys recommend to use?
19:15:02  <insulfrog> back
19:15:11  <xintron> Eddi|zuHause: haha, I hope they do :)
19:15:39  <Eddi|zuHause> i mean ones that people recognise from two words :)
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19:16:00  <xintron> Don't know
19:16:05  <xintron> Eddi|zuHause: Where are you from?
19:16:14  <Eddi|zuHause> here.
19:16:20  <xintron> haha, nice :P
19:16:32  <Eddi|zuHause> that's why i am at home here...
19:16:43  <xintron> is my home
19:16:50  <yorick> localhost is mine
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19:17:17  <xintron> yorick: :P
19:17:49  <Eddi|zuHause> ::1 anyone?
19:18:19  <xintron> What newGRF's would you guys recommend me using on my server?
19:18:23  <fjb> Oh, xintron is from Sweden...
19:18:30  <xintron> fjb: yes :)
19:18:49  <fjb> Eddi|zuHause: Me!
19:18:49  <Eddi|zuHause> # ping6 ::1
19:18:50  <Eddi|zuHause> PING ::1(::1) 56 data bytes
19:18:51  <Eddi|zuHause> 64 bytes from ::1: icmp_seq=1 ttl=64 time=0.080 ms
19:19:16  <yorick> fe80::4d68:b928:9653:836d%8 anyone?
19:19:25  <fjb> No. :-)
19:19:43  <Sacro> anyone tell me how to get 1 bit of a byte in c#?
19:19:46  <Sacro> will return (byte)(value << (startbit)); do?
19:19:48  <xintron> anyone? :P
19:19:57  <fjb> xintron: Whatever grfs you like, but chose wisely.
19:19:57  <Eddi|zuHause> # ping6 fe80::4d68:b928:9653:836d%8
19:19:58  <Eddi|zuHause> ping: unknown iface 8
19:19:59  <yorick> Sacro: getBit?
19:20:00  <DaleStan> xintron: Ones you like, generally.
19:20:11  <yorick> Eddi: yes, that is my "link-local" ip
19:20:11  <xintron> fjb: which one would you recommend?
19:20:27  <fjb> Depends.
19:20:29  <xintron> DaleStan: sure, I got that. What about that with different train stations, anyone used that one?
19:20:49  <Eddi|zuHause> xintron: generally, germans tend to recommend DBSet and british recommend UKRS :)
19:21:01  <DaleStan> Which one with different train stations? There are umpteen such GRFs.
19:21:36  <xintron> DaleStan: The NewGRF Stations that's on the wiki
19:21:52  <xintron> lol, nvm
19:22:00  <xintron> Where can I find some then?
19:22:29  <frosch123>
19:22:33  <DaleStan> Google? The site advertised on the forums?
19:22:34  <fjb> I like the DBset because I like the elctric engines. I like UKRS because it supports newcargos and has some nice diesel switchers, I like CanSet because its many features and great wagons.
19:26:46  *** FR^2 [~frquadrat@] has quit [Quit: Connection reset by caffein depletion...]
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19:30:26  <insulfrog> I have been looking at the 'game-sharing' post on the forums, quite a brill idea (different from conventional multiplayer co-op :p )
19:32:01  <insulfrog> I wonder if we could use OTTD instead of TTDX?
19:33:24  <Celestar> hm?
19:34:02  <insulfrog> lets see if i could bring up the thread
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19:34:29  <Celestar> sorry I just joined
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19:36:20  <Eddi|zuHause> there is an infrastructure sharing patch in the forum, just look it up and apply it...
19:37:42  <Celestar> infrastructure sharing will rock with cargodest methinks
19:37:43  <xintron> What's the difference between elec and mono? Do trains still have to slow down in curves/hills?
19:38:20  <Eddi|zuHause> Celestar: i think there are issues with transfer credit
19:38:33  <insulfrog> no, it's not that, there is a post on the TT savegames section where players get 10 years of play, then save it, then pass the save onto another player (I have read about it a few mins back)
19:38:46  <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: no there isn't. just pay each route individually.
19:39:08  <peter1138> Celestar, I've got a problem.
19:39:14  <Eddi|zuHause> Celestar: that might open up ways for cheating money
19:39:23  <peter1138> I'm trying to play my rail types stuff as if cargodest is available :o
19:40:03  <Eddi|zuHause> e.g. have 3 stations A,B,C, where C is the "sink". have trains running from A to B and back, have a "dummy train" in a depot with orders from B to C
19:40:23  <Eddi|zuHause> trains haul all the cargo from A via B (to C) and get paid
19:40:34  <Eddi|zuHause> now change the orders of the dummy train to "A to C"
19:40:43  <Eddi|zuHause> the trains haul everything back
19:40:45  <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause: the passengers can remember the distance traveled (per player) and pay every player on arrival
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19:41:24  <Eddi|zuHause> this way, you can haul everthing back and forth without ever delivering it
19:42:35  <Celestar> peter1138: LOL. let's move cargodest to trunk and it works (= Or just pull cargodest into railtypes (=
19:42:52  *** Purno [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:43:17  <xintron> What's the difference between elec and mono? Do trains still have to slow down in curves/hills?
19:43:18  <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: well, just remember the payment, but execute it only when the cargo is at the final destination.
19:43:20  <Yexo> Celestar: how far are you with cargodest anyway? (I've been away the last 10 days)
19:43:26  <Celestar> Yexo: very far.
19:43:34  * insulfrog can't find the thread he is looking for
19:44:00  <Eddi|zuHause> so basically, instead of the total transfer credit, you store each individual payment
19:44:18  <Eddi|zuHause> and the company associated with it
19:44:23  <Celestar> Yexo: I've added another large change today however (which decreases CPU usage by at least an order of magnitude on large maps), so there is need for another network test. Otherwise, just check the wiki, I'm just expanding it :)
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19:44:34  <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: yes, correct.
19:44:52  <Celestar> Yexo:
19:44:58  <Eddi|zuHause> but that might open up the possibility of a player sabotaging lines by such dummy trains
19:45:04  <Yexo> thx Celestar, I'll have a look
19:45:19  <frosch123> Celestar: I've checked the autoreplace handling in cargodest. When calling RemoveRoute() and AddRoute() on a single client is desync-safe everything should be fine.
19:45:25  <insulfrog> ah, here it is:
19:45:31  <Eddi|zuHause> it will add supposedly "short" routes across the map, but no vehicles actually go there
19:45:31  <xintron> anyone?
19:45:57  <davis-> :S
19:46:06  <Yexo> xintron: afaik, the only difference is the fact that monorail vehicles are faster generally
19:46:12  <insulfrog> I knew I saw that shared game topic somewhere
19:46:13  <Celestar> Yexo: it also contains what needs to be done
19:46:29  <Celestar> frosch123: RemoveRoute/AddRoute needs to be called on all clients. otherwise boom
19:46:38  <peter1138> xintron, less speed reduction in curves, but not much.
19:46:38  <Celestar> frosch123: what would I need to change?
19:46:49  <xintron> peter1138: ah, thanks :)
19:47:01  <peter1138> Which is silly really, as real life monorails are generally quite slow, aren't they?
19:47:23  <Celestar> peter1138: VERY
19:47:34  <Rubidium> not all though
19:47:54  <peter1138> Depends if you class maglev as a monorail ;)
19:48:03  <frosch123> Celestar: manual autoreplace (the button in depot) calls CmdMoveRailVehicle differently often on clients
19:48:14  <insulfrog> and here is its screenie thread for the shared game topic:
19:48:20  <xintron> Is it possible to build a new monorail depo on an excisting elec depo with trains in it and then update the trains manually?
19:48:35  <Yexo> xintron: no
19:48:41  <Celestar> frosch123: could you have another look? I'm a tad busy the next two days.
19:49:01  <frosch123> Celestar: but I thought the routing network is also not stored in savegame...
19:49:09  <Celestar> frosch123: nope it's not
19:49:14  <xintron> Yexo: hrmm... ok, so then I have to build a new depo next to the old one and create new trains and copy the orders if I want to upgrade?
19:49:22  <Yexo> xintron: correct
19:49:24  <frosch123> so, why do have AddRoute and RemoveRoute called in parallel?
19:49:24  <Celestar> frosch123: that's why AddRoute must be done on all clients
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19:49:48  <Celestar> frosch123: I don't get the question. The Routing Network must be identical on all clients, right?
19:49:58  <frosch123> Well, I meant calling RemoveRoute for some routes, and then readd the same routes by AddRoute
19:50:14  <frosch123> so the edges might be stored in a different order in the graph
19:51:07  <Celestar> frosch123: that doesn't matter
19:51:16  <frosch123> then everything is fine :)
19:51:20  <Celestar> afaik edges are sorted anyway
19:51:23  <peter1138> That happens even without DC_EXEC? :o
19:51:38  <glx> btw if it's done in commands it should happen in the same order on all clients
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19:52:15  <frosch123> peter1138: the complete replacement train is built to be able to call all callbacks etc. then it is sold again and all vehicles are moved to their previous location :p
19:53:05  <frosch123> glx: the problem is that autoreplace without DC_EXEC calls other commands with DC_EXEC
19:53:18  <peter1138> Hmm, with a custom random seed?
19:53:26  <frosch123> random seed is stored
19:53:32  <frosch123> to replay callbacks
19:54:24  <peter1138> Hmm, doesn't that assume the random seed will be the same between test and DC_EXEC?
19:54:27  <Eddi|zuHause> you should just fork() when testing autoreplace :)
19:54:28  <peter1138> I don't think that is the case.
19:54:44  <Celestar> frosch123: long story short. if you remove and add the same route on the client, it shouldn't matter a thing
19:54:45  <frosch123> it is the case
19:54:46  <peter1138> Unlikely that callbacks will be random-based...
19:55:13  <peter1138> It is the case on a single player game, certainly, but not multiplayer. Unless you've done some magic.
19:55:30  <frosch123> yes, the magic :)
19:55:40  <peter1138> :o
19:55:50  *** ychaouche [52e02f5f@] has joined #openttd
19:56:05  <ychaouche> Hi there
19:56:24  <ychaouche> I have a train that wont leave the garage
19:56:47  <ychaouche> the garage is linked to rails
19:57:01  <ychaouche> so I don't know what is wrong
19:57:08  <Wolf01> there's a train on the rails?
19:57:08  <ychaouche> anyone ?
19:57:18  <Wolf01> the rails are of the wrong railtype
19:57:27  <Sacro> the driver is still in bed
19:57:27  <Celestar> ychaouche: railtype
19:57:29  <Wolf01> or you didn't started the train
19:57:36  <ychaouche> I started it
19:57:49  <ychaouche> but I did not know there were specific railtype
19:57:51  <ychaouche> s
19:58:01  <Eddi|zuHause> does it move when you click the "ignore signals" button?
19:58:12  <ychaouche> Did not try
19:58:13  <ychaouche> brb
19:58:22  <Wolf01> does it crashes on something when you click on the same button?
19:58:26  <Wolf01> XD
19:58:31  <Celestar> ychaouche: click and hold down the LMB on the rail build window
19:59:01  <ychaouche> oh yes
19:59:02  <ychaouche> it does
19:59:07  <ychaouche> leave now
19:59:11  <Eddi|zuHause> then another train is already on the line
19:59:17  <Eddi|zuHause> you need signals, or they crash
19:59:27  <ychaouche> ahhhhh...
19:59:32  <ychaouche> now i c
19:59:33  * Celestar puts his fingers in his ears
19:59:35  <ychaouche> ok thx
19:59:39  <ychaouche> lol
19:59:45  <ychaouche> ok i'll put some signals there
19:59:48  <ychaouche> :)
19:59:48  <Celestar> ychaouche: read manual:
19:59:56  <ychaouche> fine
20:00:07  * Belugas gives a towel to Celestar, for cleaning up the now dirty finger
20:00:16  <Celestar> O_o
20:00:25  * davis- burps
20:00:50  <Eddi|zuHause> Schultz...
20:00:59  * Eddi|zuHause slaps everyone on the forehead
20:01:04  <davis-> :D
20:01:14  <Wolf01> he's playing like my very first game... 2 stations, 1 depot, 4 trains, no signals... I was stopping them by hand, and I didn't figured out why somebody decided to make a such complicate game with a lot of user control
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20:01:41  <Eddi|zuHause> i learned about signals from the AI :)
20:01:46  <Celestar> LOL
20:01:47  <Wolf01> I too
20:01:49  <davis-> same
20:01:58  <Celestar> I BOUGHT the game and READ THE MANUAL guys
20:02:10  <davis-> when ttd was released?
20:02:16  <Eddi|zuHause> it was the TT Demo, there was no manual with it
20:02:17  <Wolf01> I played the demo, 15 minutes demo, for AGES
20:02:28  <Eddi|zuHause> 2 years was my demo...
20:02:35  <Celestar> davis-: LONG ago
20:02:39  <davis-> year ?
20:02:44  <Celestar> summin like mid-90s
20:02:46  <davis-> just trying to figuer how old I been
20:02:49  <davis-> as I started playing
20:02:52  <Celestar> 93, 94 .. maybe 95
20:02:53  <peter1138> '95
20:02:58  <Celestar> peter1138: TTO ?
20:03:01  <Celestar> or TTD?
20:03:05  <peter1138> TTD
20:03:17  <Celestar> I bought TTO the day it was released
20:03:26  <peter1138> I bought it a bit later, heh...
20:03:31  <davis-> i think i played it the first time around 98
20:03:33  <davis-> me being 7
20:03:50  <davis-> so i wasnt all about reading the maual
20:03:53  <davis-> manual*
20:04:05  <davis-> ^^
20:04:27  <Wolf01> I bought TTDX for Dos this year
20:04:32  <Eddi|zuHause> Celestar: after my brother bought the game (at a rediculously high price) i did read the manual (and learned a lot about how it REALLY works)
20:04:56  <davis-> my dad did , never realy played it tho
20:05:09  <TrueBrain> pff, I played the game at age 10 .. english was not part of my known languages :p
20:05:15  <davis-> haha
20:05:22  <TrueBrain> well, 12 in fact
20:05:23  <davis-> however .. the game still didnt get old
20:05:56  <Eddi|zuHause> i have no idea if the demo was in english
20:06:06  <Eddi|zuHause> the real game was in german
20:06:15  <davis-> true
20:07:22  <Celestar> I'm off a bit
20:07:29  <Eddi|zuHause> but there really wasn't a lot that needed english skills...
20:07:35  *** Celestar [] has quit [Quit: leaving]
20:08:01  <davis-> "Fahrzeug 3 wird alt und klapperig und muss dringend ersetzt werden"
20:08:01  <davis-> :D
20:08:14  <Eddi|zuHause> not in the demo :)
20:08:29  <Eddi|zuHause> the demo ended in 1932
20:08:33  <peter1138> Wolf01, for DOS? You fail ;)
20:08:37  <davis-> ^_^
20:08:44  <Eddi|zuHause> and you could only build rails
20:08:45  <Wolf01> the only one I found
20:08:58  <davis-> anyone remembers that scenarion where you started with that huge company
20:09:05  <davis-> with a relativly large railway network
20:09:07  <davis-> sub tropical?
20:09:11  <davis-> scenario*
20:09:32  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think i ever played the TTD scenarios
20:09:40  <davis-> :|
20:09:48  <davis-> cant remember the name of it , sadly
20:10:04  <Eddi|zuHause> they are on your original TTD CD :)
20:10:17  <davis-> if that one would still work
20:10:18  <Eddi|zuHause> they should work in OTTD
20:10:21  <davis-> :]
20:12:10  <Wolf01> without any company property, because OTTD removes them from scenarios
20:12:25  <Wolf01> at least the last time I tried to load one of them
20:13:07  <davis-> D:
20:13:33  <davis-> is there somewhere a collection of severs that run with several newgrfs?
20:13:46  <davis-> stations / trains / building costs and so on
20:13:54  <davis-> basicaly i just know brianetta's
20:14:56  <Wolf01> openttdcoops
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20:15:28  <Wolf01> see a pokemon...
20:16:15  <davis-> thanks wolf
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20:27:44  <Wolf01> how cute... no mouse wheel, 5x4 stations, 10 cars trains, no resizable windows
20:27:56  <Wolf01> NO AUTORAIL!!!!!
20:29:12  <insulfrog> I have to go, cya :)
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20:29:59  <Wolf01> the first thing I tried was to build a station on a flat area with an hole
20:30:22  <peter1138> Hehe
20:30:52  <Eddi|zuHause> Brianettas server does not use "several" newgrfs :p
20:31:03  <Wolf01> I tried TWO times... then I figured that buildonslopes was not invented yet
20:36:14  <fjb> Hm, when the new track layering got implemented for roads you could take the road sprites from ISR and make a road grf with them. Then you can have your trucks driving through the stations and harbours. :-)
20:43:10  <Sacro> ooh an Insulfrog
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20:44:06  <peter1138> When it got? It happened?
20:44:52  <fjb> When it will have been implemented... Better?
20:45:05  <peter1138> Not really.
20:45:14  <Eddi|zuHause> yes. there is a secret implementation by some guy named peter1138, didn't you hear?
20:45:22  <peter1138> s/got/is/ makes sense
20:45:43  <fjb> peter1138: How is it in correct English?
20:45:49  <Eddi|zuHause> simple tenses are too simple for complexity loving germans ;)
20:46:02  <peter1138> When the new track layering is implemented for roads ...
20:46:15  <fjb> Oh, that simple?
20:46:18  <peter1138> Yes.
20:46:25  <fjb> Hm...
20:47:11  <peter1138> We're simple people ;)
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20:47:16  <Eddi|zuHause> future perfect passive is too complicated for the british, apparently :)
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20:48:32  <peter1138> Blame the French, or the Danish, or someone...
20:49:00  *** lafille [] has quit []
20:49:05  <Wolf01> Italians!!!
20:49:13  <fjb> "is implemented" is passive? Learning languages was always a difficult thing.
20:49:56  <fjb> French is easy. When it sounds good it must be correct.
20:49:57  <peter1138> Wolf01, they were a bit earlier.
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20:53:26  <Wolf01> 'night all
20:53:35  *** Wolf01 [] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
20:54:48  <peter1138> Everyone invaded Britain and so we have the best bits of all those languages ;)
20:55:44  <fjb> Schienenzeppelin: :-)
20:56:18  <fjb> Hm, best bits? You threw away all the nice bits...
20:56:48  <peter1138> That mine really fits in :p
20:56:55  <peter1138> Or whatever it is.
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20:57:57  <bruce89> can't beat gaelic, everything's called "black rock"
20:58:05  <Eddi|zuHause> fjb: it does not implement itself, so it is passive...
20:59:00  <fjb> Eddi|zuHause: Self modifying code...
20:59:09  <glx> gaelic is silly ;)
21:00:28  <Eddi|zuHause> fjb: self modifying != self writing
21:00:52  <Eddi|zuHause> code generators are very common, but they are "stupid"
21:00:53  <bruce89> glx: must have done the job though
21:01:09  <fjb> Gaelic is uneconomical. You need far to much paint for the station names.
21:01:22  <glx> lol
21:01:42  <glx> fjb: isn't that welsh?
21:01:46  <bruce89> not in the case of Mallaig (Malaig)
21:01:51  <bruce89> indeed, that's Welsh
21:02:24  <fjb> glx: Maybe, just something spoken on that stange island.
21:02:25  <Eddi|zuHause> welsh is a related language to gaelic, i thought
21:03:12  <bruce89> Welsh is 50 times less nice
21:03:26  <bruce89> they are opposite Gaelic types
21:09:58  <peter1138> Only the Welsh would make w a vowel...
21:25:43  <Sacro> heh
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21:49:36  <dih> phoebe hates pbs :-D
21:49:48  <dih> i never knew, but she hates it :-D
21:50:58  <peter1138> Hmm?
21:51:03  <Progman> who?
21:51:15  <FauxFaux> I hate pbs, too, makes junction design no fun.
21:51:26  <Progman> lazy junctions ftw...
21:51:55  <FauxFaux> I hope there's a patch to disable it. :)
21:52:20  <peter1138> Nope.
21:52:30  <peter1138> Don't want it? Don't use it.
21:52:46  <Progman> "You cannot build this track. \n This tile will result in a lazy junction"
21:53:14  <FauxFaux> I was thinking of multiplayer.
21:53:49  <Eddi|zuHause> oh i remember my beginner games, where i built 4x4 junctions with every possible trackbit :p
21:54:00  <peter1138> :o
21:54:19  <Progman> they were awesome ;)
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22:34:48  <fjb> I hate it when the ECS industries are closing down even when there is a vehicle always waiting.
22:35:17  *** bruce89 [] has joined #openttd
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22:52:36  <Progman> you can change this behavier with parameters
22:57:34  <Eddi|zuHause> I hate [...] the ECS industries [...]
23:00:12  <Sacro> arrgh
23:00:16  * Sacro kicks OpenTTD
23:00:17  <Sacro> STOP
23:00:18  <Sacro> LOOKING
23:00:19  <Sacro> IN
23:00:20  <Sacro> MY
23:00:22  <Sacro> DOCUMENTS ><
23:00:39  <Sacro> sigh
23:00:46  <Sacro> @seen Celestar
23:00:46  <DorpsGek> Sacro: Celestar was last seen in #openttd 2 hours, 53 minutes, and 23 seconds ago: <Celestar> I'm off a bit
23:00:58  <Sacro> can someone compile CargoDest win32 please :)
23:01:22  <Progman> already done
23:01:27  <Sacro> link?
23:01:36  <Progman>
23:01:49  <Sacro> :o
23:01:56  <Sacro> i don't recognise that subdomain
23:01:59  <TrueBrain> or rather:
23:02:14  <Sacro> that's a lot
23:02:22  <TrueBrain> a test-build of the new compile-farm
23:03:16  <fjb> I don't want the industries never closing down, I don't want well serviced industries to close down.
23:03:49  <Sacro> Plane speed factor arrows go the wrong way D:
23:03:58  <Sacro> right arrow decreases it
23:04:00  <Sacro> this is not good
23:04:08  <Progman> fjb: then change the parameters
23:05:06  <fjb> The parameters are only disabling closing down at all. I don't want every generated industry to stay forever.
23:05:44  <Sacro> also we need a better grf selection thingy
23:06:18  <Sacro> i add 3 then i get bored
23:06:26  <Sacro> and then go play something else
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23:18:25  <Ammler> good night ottdler
23:18:40  <TrueBrain> night Ammler
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23:47:46  <DaleStan> Whoever has pastebin admin might want to do some spam cleaning. Bunchnum of spam pastes appeared a minute or two ago.
23:47:56  *** Progman [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
23:48:32  <TrueBrain> DaleStan: the 'spam' solution of 'pastebin' isn't released .. so we just deal with it
23:49:24  <DaleStan> Oh. Well then, I won't bother you with that again.
23:49:53  <TrueBrain> I wish the pastebin owner would release his spam-fix solution ..
23:50:44  <TrueBrain> DaleStan: on the positive side, it is on my big list of things to do: write our own (spamfree) pastebin
23:51:01  <TrueBrain> (well, it is down to the top3 currently in fact)
23:51:33  <SmatZ_> who cares about spam in pastebin... it takes only little disk space, and nobody posts links to those spams here...
23:51:55  <TrueBrain> SmatZ_: it starts to become VERY annoying :p
23:52:17  <SmatZ_> hehe
23:52:17  <TrueBrain> I mean ... we are down to 65000 :p
23:52:34  <SmatZ_> when spambots start posting at IRC, like
23:52:41  <SmatZ_> I have a problem, can you help me?
23:52:42  <TrueBrain> 8 days ago it was 55000 :p
23:52:47  <SmatZ_> yeah :)
23:52:54  <SmatZ_> it was < 1000 for very long time
23:53:01  <TrueBrain> exactly :p
23:56:44  <bruce89> could always disable the "forever" thing
23:57:03  <TrueBrain> well, the new solution will take care of that :)

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