Log for #openttd on 16th September 2008:
Times are UTC Toggle Colours
00:00:46  <Progman> -s null works fine here with my audioplayer
00:01:25  <Progman> but I cannot hear music as openttd takes so much cpu time anyway ;)
00:02:24  <Phantasm> I have quad core.
00:06:15  *** lobster [~michielbi@] has joined #openttd
00:06:30  <glx> so 3 cores are free
00:06:50  <SmatZ> :-)
00:07:32  * welshdragon throws a brick at Brianetta's server
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00:08:06  <welshdragon> i wish i didn't have to set passwords that had to be generic.. that way i wouldn't forget them :(
00:09:20  <welshdragon> there's a jam at one of my old stations and it pains me to look at it :'(
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00:22:30  <welshdragon> lol, i /kill'd the conversation
00:24:59  <Phantasm> ;P
00:25:27  * welshdragon throws another brick at Brianetta's server
00:26:43  <welshdragon> if i throw enough bricks do you think it will reset my password?
00:27:41  <valhallasw> I doubt it
00:27:59  <valhallasw> it will probaby just say *plonk* and continue
00:28:35  <welshdragon> aww
00:30:38  <Belugas> or break your screen
00:30:43  <Belugas> which would not help ya
00:31:14  * Belugas is fooling aorund with some objects loader
00:31:59  <welshdragon> Belugas, i wouldn't mind, but i offered to even reset the other company passwords too, so they didn't get eleted
00:32:05  <welshdragon> *deleted
00:32:32  <welshdragon> and sit on the server sending out notices
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00:32:51  * Belugas will cry for you :)
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00:33:43  <welshdragon> so inmy anger, i shalll go to bed
00:34:43  <welshdragon> Belugas, please look at implementing a way for server administrators to reset company passwords easily, without actualle cleaning the server. kthanks
00:35:24  *** welshdragon [] has left #openttd [i need sleep. and more bricks to throw at Brianetta's server]
00:36:22  <ln> intro to LHC:
00:37:35  <murray> live LHC cam:
00:37:38  <murray> posted here earlier
00:37:55  <ln> that's a fake, the intro is not
00:38:30  <murray> the intro is not?
00:38:42  <ln> not fake
00:39:07  <murray> it's not fake
00:39:11  <murray> the intro
00:39:14  <murray> ..
00:41:56  <ln> echo?
00:43:39  <murray> ^^
00:43:39  <murray> sorry
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02:01:16  <Belugas> why do we have to always find ways to do stuff for server admins???
02:01:24  * Belugas goes to bed
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07:37:20  <Tim> Morning
07:38:04  <planetmaker> morning folks
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07:41:30  <Celestar> \o
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07:41:42  <roboboy> hello
07:45:07  *** Netsplit <-> quits: Gekz_, Pikka
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07:57:13  <ln-> what did they do now?
07:57:21  <Forked> kill all
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08:01:40  <ln-> why?
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08:09:45  <roboboy> it is the bi-annual *@* akill from #oftc
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10:08:03  <Eddi|zuHause> is CIA on strike for the last week?
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10:17:08  <CommanderZ> it was okay yesterday
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10:31:51  <ccfreak2k> There's a CIA in #mumble at Freenode that announces SVN commits sporadically.
10:32:32  * Eddi|zuHause slaps CIA-2
10:32:44  * Eddi|zuHause kicks CIA-2
10:32:45  <CIA-2> ow
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11:17:17  * dih would like to make some console changes ;-)
11:17:26  <dih> add some output
11:17:34  <dih> i.e. when a company goes bankrupt
11:17:50  <dih> output the client id when a client joins
11:17:57  <dih> or leaves
11:18:20  *** lobster_MB [~michielbr@] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep]
11:18:52  <Rubidium> oh... more yorick puppets
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11:19:47  <dih> thanks!
11:19:53  <dih> i was kinda being serious
11:20:25  <dih> i was not even wanting to add commands, just debug output
11:20:47  <dih> and you instult me with a word i dont want to repeat here again
11:20:49  <dih> :-P
11:22:51  <Rubidium> what use it is? Except remotely logging all kinds of information via a client-slot
11:26:04  <Sacro> hehehehe
11:26:08  <Sacro> "client-slot"
11:27:27  <planetmaker> [13:22]	<Rubidium>	what use it is? Except remotely logging all kinds of information via a client-slot <-- autopilot could possibly make use of it.
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11:31:16  <Ammler> Maybe it would be worth to ask Kurt for his patch.
11:32:52  <Ammler> Rubidium: the "old" nightly server is switched off?
11:33:05  <Ammler> no chance to get some builds? (like wwottdgd/1)
11:33:24  <Ammler>
11:33:28  <Rubidium> it's not turned of, don't know whether you can reach it though
11:33:42  <TrueBrain> no, you can't reach it
11:33:46  <Ammler> I would like to wget those
11:33:50  <welshdragon> dih, console too should be able to allow server admins the removal of company passwords, without cleaning the server
11:33:55  <Ammler> so we can save them with our save.
11:34:12  * Celestar wonders whether to poke TrueBrain for another cargodest build :P
11:34:20  <TrueBrain> Celestar: just let me know :)
11:34:33  * welshdragon wants to moan at Brianetta more
11:34:53  <Celestar> TrueBrain: ok. go ahead (=
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11:35:51  <TrueBrain> [2008-09-16 11:35:43] Scheduled task 0000008 started
11:35:56  <TrueBrain> Cargodest == 0000008
11:35:57  <TrueBrain> :)
11:36:21  <Forked> woo
11:36:34  <TrueBrain> [2008-09-16 11:36:26] Task 0000053 created (hg://, h2d7ff353)
11:37:35  <TrueBrain> Ammler: why didn't you download them when they were still available .. you of all people knew the old place would become unreachable (as I told you so :))
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11:37:57  <Ammler> well, didn't think for wwottdgd
11:38:03  <TrueBrain> stu-pid :)
11:38:44  <Ammler> well, the world will still cycle without :-)
11:39:21  <Ammler> I thought, you won't make new nightlies anymore there
11:39:35  <Ammler> not that it isn't reachable at all.
11:40:00  <TrueBrain> what did I say about that ... if you keep things available, people don't switch? :p
11:40:10  <TrueBrain>
11:40:13  <TrueBrain> will be gone in like 20 minutes :p
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11:41:04  <Ammler> TrueBrain: they need to switch for new things...
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11:46:50  <Rubidium> Celestar: (don't think I've seen all, i.e. let other devs review too)
11:47:14  <Ammler> shouldn't "wget -m <url>" download all packs at once?
11:49:28  <Celestar> Rubidium: thanks. I'll look at it in a minute or two
11:50:54  <TrueBrain> Rubidium: you faked 'Rietveld' (remember, that piece of software we used a few times :p)
11:51:13  * ccfreak2k is still waiting for Tiberius to update his opengl patch. :(
11:51:15  <Celestar> Rubidium: I think the "XXX" are your command, right?
11:51:20  <Rubidium> TrueBrain: no, Rietfeld faked me!
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11:51:25  <TrueBrain> lol
11:51:33  <TrueBrain> Celestar: no, that are compilable opcodes :p
11:52:40  <Rubidium> Celestar: no they are my comments, in the previous review cycle I used >>> so I added <<< to it
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11:57:07  <peter1138> heh
11:57:09  <peter1138> XXX looks wrong to me!
11:57:30  <peter1138> Well I did try fixing it but he didn't want it :o
11:57:54  <Ammler> TrueBrain: now I know, why I can't mirror them :-)
11:57:58  <Ammler> got a 404ert
11:58:01  <Ammler> -t
11:58:01  <peter1138> (imho we should always be compatible with trunk, regardless of the ability to test previous saves)
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11:58:42  <TrueBrain> Ammler: euh?
12:00:03  <Ammler>
12:00:08  <Ammler> oh
12:00:11  <Ammler> sorry :-P
12:00:24  <TrueBrain> euh .. yeah ...
12:00:28  <TrueBrain> maybe better luck next time :p
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12:00:47  <TrueBrain> Ammler: soon I can create a new set of binaries for you, based on the new compile-farm
12:00:59  <TrueBrain> then it can stay under custom/ and use our bandwidth, for all I care
12:01:05  <TrueBrain> (and soon: MIRRORS!)
12:01:28  <Ammler> we are already at wwottdgd/2
12:01:47  <Ammler> but for wwottdgd/3, that might be useful :-)
12:01:47  <TrueBrain> there was already a 1 and 2, not?
12:01:51  <TrueBrain> ah, like that
12:01:52  <TrueBrain> hehe
12:02:12  <dih> Rubidium: autopilot (and some other applications) wrap around the dedicated console
12:02:21  <Ammler> but I like to keep the old binaries, because the saves aren't compatible to other binaries.
12:02:21  * peter1138 mirrors TrueBrain
12:02:30  <TrueBrain> peter1138: sounds painful :(
12:02:31  <dih> (as other apps, see Kurt's Servers)
12:03:14  <dih> keeping track of companies when there is one information missing, namely companies being closed due to bankrupcy
12:03:23  <Ammler> but why doesn't work my "wget -m". :-(
12:03:31  <dih> also - these wrapper aps (also admins) make use of client_id's
12:03:47  <TrueBrain> Ammler: by now you could have done it manual
12:03:59  <Ammler> well, of course.
12:04:09  <dih> is he asking for someone to code for him again?
12:04:14  <Ammler> but then I would still not know, what my problem is and can't sleep...
12:04:29  <TrueBrain> Celestar: <- there! (finally I can give you THAT url :))
12:04:38  <dih> welshdragon: i did clearly say earlier, that i was not after adding console commands
12:04:45  <dih> that will not happen anyway afaik
12:04:54  <Forked> nice
12:05:05  <TrueBrain> if not it seems to display the old data ...
12:05:11  <TrueBrain> takes 5 minutes for him to reload the cache entries :p
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12:07:24  <Eddi|zuHause> Unhandled Exception
12:07:25  <Eddi|zuHause> An unhandled exception was thrown by the application.
12:07:27  <dih> so, would it be such a bad idea to add more debug output?
12:07:45  <Eddi|zuHause> @TrueBrain (clicking on the link above)
12:08:02  <Ammler> worked here...
12:08:17  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: works here
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12:08:33  <Ammler> I had that error yesterday for the server page (or was it on sunday)
12:08:55  <Eddi|zuHause> redirects me to first, maybe that has something to do with it?
12:09:12  <TrueBrain> Ammler: yup, fixed that
12:09:20  <dih> hehe - TrueBrain: browser detection? :-P
12:09:25  <dih> language detection rather
12:09:25  <Eddi|zuHause> or maybe because i use konqueror?
12:09:31  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: no, that should happen
12:09:49  <SmatZ> indeed, with Konqueror, it fails
12:09:50  <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: yes, it should happen, but maybe it doesn't work correctly?
12:10:03  <SmatZ> but it seems to be Konqueror error
12:10:07  <SmatZ> konquerror :)
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12:10:37  <planetmaker> lol @ SmatZ :)
12:10:44  <TrueBrain> what the ...
12:10:57  <TrueBrain> one browser who can trigger the error ... how is that possible :p
12:11:04  <Ammler> you might need to define another Browser as *default" browser for KDE :-)
12:11:06  <ccfreak2k> SmatZ, how long were you waiting to use THAT gem?
12:11:25  <SmatZ> stupid, I know :)
12:11:45  <Eddi|zuHause> it IS kind of funny ;)
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12:12:29  <TrueBrain> do you have any idea how hard it is nowedays to copy/paste a 'tab' from somewhere?
12:12:40  <TrueBrain> I hope to open kwrite for it :s
12:12:41  <SmatZ> no
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12:12:54  <Eddi|zuHause> it happens with the other download pages, too
12:13:58  <Ammler> seriously, I need help :-)
12:14:13  <Ammler> how do I download the whole directory at once?
12:14:19  <Ammler> (
12:14:28  <TrueBrain> Ammler: I suggest visiting your doctor
12:14:37  <Celestar> Ammler: wget -r --no-parent I thin
12:14:38  <Celestar> k
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12:15:45  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: any only the download page .. weird ;)
12:16:14  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, the other pages seem fine
12:16:32  * Rubidium wonders whether his konqueror is broken; it doesn't show unhandled exceptions
12:16:39  <Eddi|zuHause> main page, screenshots, servers, development
12:17:37  <SmatZ> I have Konqueror 3.5.10
12:17:41  <Celestar> Rubidium: > grep ^XXX review.diff | wc -l
12:17:41  <Celestar> 78
12:17:42  <Eddi|zuHause> happens also in konqueror/kde4
12:17:48  <Celestar> only 78 comments :D
12:17:56  <Eddi|zuHause> haha :p
12:18:11  <Ammler> Celestar: -r is included in -m but I tried it too and failed...
12:18:24  <Rubidium> Celestar: yeah, like: check the whole diff for xyz because it happens too often to annotate all
12:18:41  <TrueBrain> local variable 'architecture' referenced before assignment
12:18:43  <TrueBrain> what?!
12:18:52  <Celestar> Rubidium: uh?
12:19:04  * TrueBrain hits Rubidium
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12:20:16  <Rubidium> but.. but... it worked in php!
12:21:08  <hylje> scope is a scary thing
12:21:17  <TrueBrain> archictecture = "*"
12:21:20  <TrueBrain> architecture.replace("i386", "i686")
12:21:22  <TrueBrain> find the mistake
12:21:26  <hylje> hahaha
12:21:28  <TrueBrain> (well, with this copy/paste it is darn easy ..
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12:21:53  <TrueBrain> but I did had to look 20 times :p
12:22:10  * hylje doesn't typo names like, ever
12:22:44  <Eddi|zuHause> another note: the top of the page used to have two dozen language flags. they are somehow gone now
12:23:16  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: yeah, because many of your fellow country people started to complain that the german translation was broken
12:23:17  <TrueBrain> there Eddi|zuHause
12:23:19  <TrueBrain> and tnx ;)
12:23:26  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: because people are idiots
12:23:32  <TrueBrain> and don't understand: no languages are translated yet
12:23:39  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, page works now ;)
12:23:49  <TrueBrain> "Why does the website show up in english!?! I pressed the German flag!"
12:23:56  <TrueBrain> dipwits
12:24:09  <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: add a warning "this page is not translated yet"?
12:24:23  <TrueBrain> removing the flags is more efficient
12:24:27  <Eddi|zuHause> especially since not all pages will get translated at once
12:24:40  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: they will still miss that warning
12:24:42  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but not future-proof ;)
12:24:54  <Rubidium> as people can't find the downloads either
12:25:04  <TrueBrain> I mean, how can you not find the downloads?!
12:25:44  <Eddi|zuHause> there's no general "Download" item in the "Frontpage"/"About"/... bar
12:26:00  <TrueBrain> no, ther eis a very big DOWNLOAD bar just on top of it ..
12:26:11  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but it is not in the bar below ;)
12:26:23  <Ammler> is it possible that lighttdp not compatible for wget?
12:27:30  <TrueBrain> Ammler: your 20 minutes are up :p
12:28:01  <TrueBrain> Ammler: possible the index pages are too htmlized for wget to understand, yes
12:29:26  <TrueBrain> but most of all, the problem is because wget tries to download 'index.html'
12:29:50  *** mode/#openttd [+v peter1138] by ChanServ
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12:31:13  <TrueBrain> fixing that, Ammler, it still doesn't work, so give up
12:31:30  <Eddi|zuHause> it downloads index..html and robots.txt here
12:31:30  <Eddi|zuHause> then stops
12:31:55  <Ammler> is there no option for wget to work around that?
12:32:36  <TrueBrain>
12:33:01  <Ammler> :-P
12:33:38  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, i have drag-and-dropped these links to a directory faster than configured wget to get them :p
12:38:09  <Eddi|zuHause> echo '<copy-paste-table here>' | awk '{ system("wget " ) }' <- how about that?
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12:38:52  <Eddi|zuHause> need to put the prefix somewhere
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13:01:08  <TrueBrain> Ammler: do you already have the files?
13:03:12  <Sacro> please e-mail me the files
13:03:42  <TrueBrain> Ammler: About-page updated, tnx for the feedback :)
13:08:26  <Eddi|zuHause> 26 minutes to Weeds...
13:08:46  * TrueBrain removes the last CNAME from the OpenTTD DNS record .. good bye old friend, you always served us well .. (Refering to a specific piece of hardware in this world)
13:08:56  <Gekz> LoL
13:09:09  <Gekz> what's the difference between a CNAME and an A record?
13:09:28  <TrueBrain> CNAME redirects
13:09:32  *** lobster_MB [~michielbr@] has joined #openttd
13:09:41  <Gekz> and A masks?
13:09:41  <Eddi|zuHause> i assume that is some kind of milestone ;)
13:09:49  <TrueBrain> no, gives IP
13:09:56  <Gekz> I see.
13:10:34  <TrueBrain> 'milestone' is a big word ..
13:11:05  <TrueBrain> it does mean that all related subdomains point to one server now
13:11:16  <Eddi|zuHause> well, there are also halfmile stones and quartermile stones ;)
13:11:17  <TrueBrain> not yet, btw
13:12:26  <Gekz> lol.
13:12:26  <TrueBrain> ttdp nightlies need some serious work to be integrated ... will be nasty, sort of :)
13:12:38  <Gekz> TrueBrain: chroot?
13:12:48  <Gekz> chroot jails ftw
13:12:52  <TrueBrain> how would that help in this world ..
13:13:49  *** reldred [] has joined #openttd
13:14:07  <peter1138> So, server backups...
13:14:25  <TrueBrain> you have one peter1138? :)
13:14:29  <peter1138> I do?
13:14:37  <TrueBrain> I dunno, you start to talk about it :p
13:14:39  <peter1138> I might be able to provide one.
13:15:04  <TrueBrain> we have a .cz one, a .de one .. looking for me :p /me hungry :)
13:15:10  <TrueBrain> well, one might wonder how much OpenTTD need ..
13:15:13  <peter1138> .uk one?
13:15:21  <peter1138> How much space is required?
13:15:36  *** mode/#openttd [+o Belugas] by ChanServ
13:15:37  <TrueBrain> 100 GiB diskspace, 200 GiB bandwidth a month, at least
13:15:45  <TrueBrain> (first is overkill, latter might be on the low side)
13:15:58  <TrueBrain> ssh (private/public key) + rsync a must
13:16:06  <peter1138> Obvious :)
13:16:07  <TrueBrain> private and public dir, if possible
13:16:13  *** Vikthor [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:16:13  <peter1138> You wouldn't want to do full backups of that :)
13:16:26  <TrueBrain> (private for SSH backup, public for binary mirror)
13:16:31  <TrueBrain> SSH = SVN
13:16:43  <TrueBrain> I should add 'git' and 'hg' to the backups too I guess
13:18:05  <TrueBrain> btw, everything is backuped/mirrored, except the compile-farm itself (the images are, the code is, but the process itself is not), and developers-mail
13:18:48  <TrueBrain> binaries are mirrored, the rest is either in SVN, hg, or otherwise stored on safe places
13:18:52  <peter1138> Just trying to find a cheap server with enough space ;)
13:19:13  <peter1138> HP DL360s are my current favouriate for second hand stuff, but they tend to stop at 72GB space.
13:19:15  <TrueBrain> don't buy anything, enough people (as in: hosting companies) want to donate for free
13:19:31  <TrueBrain> SCSI :s
13:19:35  <TrueBrain> (or SAN)
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13:19:40  <TrueBrain> either way, sucks :p
13:20:01  <TrueBrain> I sold my last rackserver a few weeks back :p
13:20:05  <TrueBrain> else I could have shipped it to you :)
13:20:09  <Ammler> [15:19] <TrueBrain> [14:59:46] Ammler: do you already have the files? <-- had accidentially to move, will download them now manually...
13:20:26  <peter1138> Bah :o
13:20:42  <peter1138> Well I have old 4U shitters, but... urgh...
13:25:34  <TrueBrain> I should make a page with mirror requirements ... that sounds like an idea ;)
13:26:20  *** reldred is now known as reldred|gone
13:31:06  <peter1138> lol cobalt raq :p
13:31:33  *** sulai [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:31:39  * Brianetta owns an ageing 1U
13:31:47  <peter1138> Hmm, DL320
13:31:56  <Brianetta> My OpenTTD server runs on it, as well as Tyneside LUG's stuff
13:32:55  <TrueBrain> I no longer own a single U .. I used to own lots of Us :p
13:33:00  <TrueBrain> (sold tha tpart of my company ;))
13:33:16  <dih> what do you mean with _that_ part?
13:33:20  <peter1138> hmm, 1U dual athlon 2800+MP
13:33:25  <dih> i thought you sold the company....
13:33:27  <Brianetta> I get half an amp and 2000GB a month
13:33:28  <TrueBrain> dih: I didn't sold my company completely
13:33:33  <dih> ah - :-)
13:33:39  <TrueBrain> just the part dealing with colocation and webhosting :)
13:33:41  <dih> what part you keep - services?
13:33:47  <Brianetta> upgradeable to 3000GB at no charge, if I want it
13:34:05  <TrueBrain> dih: service, webdesign, network-support, mail-filter, ...
13:34:12  <dih> nice :-)
13:34:17  <TrueBrain> 0.5A ..
13:34:26  <TrueBrain> most of the servers I owned, always used 0.6 at least :p
13:34:29  <TrueBrain> (150W)
13:34:50  <peter1138> Hmm, 1U, 3* IDE drive bays, dual gigabit...
13:34:52  <Brianetta> I'm under the current level I pay for.
13:35:00  <Brianetta> There's only one hard disk.
13:35:05  <peter1138> 4GB ram, heh
13:35:12  <Brianetta> Half a giggle of RAM
13:35:15  <peter1138> Ah, it's a va-technologies one
13:35:31  <TrueBrain> 1 HD ...
13:35:34  <TrueBrain> that people seriously use that :p
13:35:42  <TrueBrain> I hope you don't have any criticial info on it :)
13:36:25  <Sacro> my ssh public key D:
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13:37:09  <Brianetta> TrueBrain: It's all backed up, and if the hard drive fails I'll have to rent a replacement anyway
13:37:13  <TrueBrain> they indeed removed 'ssh-keygen -t dsa' nowedays from every system in the world
13:37:17  <Celestar> Rubidium: about those modifications of the saveload revisions in the diff....
13:37:37  <peter1138> I already had a patch for them.
13:37:51  <Celestar> Rubidium: they're in place so that loading older cargodest games is possible during the devving of cargodest. Once we're prior to a merge, this will be reverted of course.
13:38:04  <TrueBrain> Brianetta: I hope for you it is all safe :) Last month I walked into a big company, with N storage ... all non-RAID ... and their complain? A disk crashed, and they lost data ... really? NO SHIT?
13:38:14  <Celestar> Rubidium: you really don't like "xor_mask", do you ?:P
13:38:26  <Brianetta> TrueBrain: If it's lost, it's lost.  Nobody will lose their livelihood.
13:38:36  *** Pikkaa [PikkaBird@] has joined #openttd
13:38:42  <Brianetta> Pikka.. a (:
13:38:44  <TrueBrain> Brianetta: ;)
13:38:51  <Pikkaa> D:
13:39:53  <Celestar> Rubidium: about the vehicle_gui.cpp stuff. These changes are mainly to adapt the non-train view windows. They didn't have scrollbars before, now they do. I've another diff that further cleans up the Vehicle Detail Window.
13:40:49  <Rubidium> Celestar: what's more clear: new_mask & changed_mask or new_mask & xor_mask?
13:41:11  *** Pikka [PikkaBird@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:42:01  <Rubidium> I'd immediately ask myself what the xor_mask contains, whereas in the former example I'd quite easily deduce that it only passes the newly added bits
13:45:21  <Celestar> Rubidium: yeah, I know (=
13:47:43  <Rubidium> Celestar: what I meant to say with vehicle_gui was to commit the non-cargodest part first
13:47:53  <Rubidium> same with some of the order changes
13:48:05  <Celestar> Rubidium: like the ->first member?
13:51:45  <Celestar> Rubidium: why typedeffing EVERY std::something ? I mean for the stuff that is reused ... ok, but every?
13:51:58  *** welshdragon is now known as welshdra-gone
13:52:02  *** welshdra-gone is now known as welshdragon
13:52:33  <SmatZ> Celestar: why not?
13:52:52  <Celestar> SmatZ: what's the benefit to typedef a std::vector<bool> ?
13:52:52  <SmatZ> it is clearly much easier to understand what it does
13:53:01  <SmatZ> and much simpler to change it sometimes in the future
13:53:35  <SmatZ> Celestar: once it can be StationBitfield, once CargoBitfield...
13:53:43  <SmatZ> and so :)
13:55:26  <Rubidium> Celestar: it's almost everywhere reused
13:55:38  <Rubidium> std::map<bla, bla> something
13:55:48  <Rubidium> std::map<bla, bla>::iterator it
13:56:02  <Rubidium> that is something I saw happening *very* often in the diff
13:56:25  <SmatZ> std::map<bla, bla>::iterator won't compile on gcc2
13:56:31  <SmatZ> another reason for typedef :)
13:56:42  *** Doorslammer [] has quit []
13:57:19  <SmatZ> typedef std::map<bla, bla> Something;
13:57:31  <SmatZ> then you can use Something::iterator
13:57:53  <SmatZ> gcc2 doesn't like multiple :: in a type (I know gcc2 support is a very weak argument...)
13:58:05  <Gekz> gcc2 is ancient
13:58:17  <Gekz> no-one uses it any more
13:58:19  <Gekz> and for good reason.
13:58:19  <TrueBrain> we do
13:58:22  <SmatZ> Gekz: wrong
13:58:29  <Gekz> you people are no-ones now
13:58:30  <Gekz> !
13:58:36  <TrueBrain> so why are you here?
13:58:45  *** Dred_furst [] has joined #openttd
13:58:45  <Gekz> I like talking to no-one.
13:59:23  <TrueBrain> ah :)
13:59:25  <TrueBrain> well, welcome!
13:59:39  *** mode/#openttd [+qz #openttd!*@*] by Rubidium
13:59:46  *** mode/#openttd [-qz #openttd!*@*] by Rubidium
13:59:54  <Rubidium> something went wrong with that command I reckon
13:59:58  <SmatZ> :-P
14:00:41  * Forked hides
14:00:55  <Celestar> SmatZ: it does work on 2.95.3 according to TrueBrain
14:01:20  <Gekz> why are you using gcc 2?
14:01:28  <Gekz> honestly, I know of no-one else who uses it
14:01:36  <Celestar> Gekz: Morphos
14:01:58  <TrueBrain> Celestar: the last time I tried cargodest, it did compile, yes
14:02:15  <SmatZ> @openttd commit 13985
14:02:16  <DorpsGek> SmatZ: Commit by smatz :: r13985 trunk/src/yapf/yapf_destrail.hpp (2008-08-03 20:50:12 UTC)
14:02:17  <DorpsGek> SmatZ: -Fix (r13944): gcc 2.95 compilation
14:02:24  <SmatZ> maybe it was caused by other things then
14:02:44  <Gekz> Celestar: and gcc3 isnt on MorphOS?
14:03:18  <SmatZ> Gekz: if it was that easy, we would have dropped gcc2 support years ago
14:03:23  <TrueBrain> SmatZ: GCC2.95 tends to be limited ;)
14:03:28  <SmatZ> :-)
14:04:09  <Gekz> SmatZ: ease != worth of doing
14:04:09  <Gekz> lol
14:04:10  <TrueBrain> SmatZ: as in: sometimes it does one thing here, but not there, depending on surroundings ;)
14:04:29  <TrueBrain> Gekz: and we even have a big hack to make gcc 2.95 still work with our C++ code :)
14:04:43  <Gekz> crazy
14:04:54  *** Fuco [] has joined #openttd
14:04:55  <Gekz> I mean, literally unsustainably crazy
14:04:56  <Gekz> haha
14:05:21  <TrueBrain> if we would give when ever it gets rough
14:05:26  <TrueBrain> we wouldn't have had Windows support
14:05:27  <TrueBrain> OSX support
14:05:29  <TrueBrain> MorphOS support
14:05:38  <TrueBrain> well .. not even 64bit linux support I guess
14:05:42  <TrueBrain> leaving only 32bit linux ..
14:05:49  <TrueBrain> maybe crazy in your eyes, required in ours :)
14:06:09  <Gekz> why isnt Gcc3
14:06:11  <Gekz> WHY
14:06:31  <Sacro> why 3?
14:06:33  <Sacro> 4 is latest
14:06:41  * Sacro has 4.3.2
14:06:59  <Sacro> wtf is trrlang
14:07:16  <Brianetta> Why is anything but Linux required? (:
14:07:21  <Brianetta> Windows users have Patch
14:07:39  <welshdragon> Brianetta, but we still use openttd
14:07:48  <Sacro> but linux is free
14:07:53  <Sacro> so get it and install it
14:07:59  * Brianetta can't think of a reason to use Windows
14:08:08  <Sacro> Brianetta: solitarie!
14:08:08  <welshdragon> i have ubuntu, but no wireless
14:08:08  <peter1138> SmatZ, oh, is std::vector<bool> optimised to a bitfield?
14:08:09  <tegil> shiny!
14:08:14  <Spoons> Sacro: I did, but it cost me so much time I decided Windows was cheaper.
14:08:15  * Brianetta still can't think of a reason to use Windows
14:08:20  *** Belugas [~belugas@] has quit [Quit: On snow, everyone can follow your traces]
14:08:21  * Sacro has ubuntu
14:08:26  <Sacro> err
14:08:26  <Sacro> no
14:08:29  * Sacro has Arch
14:08:33  <Brianetta> I have Ubuntu at the moment
14:08:48  <Sacro> i have to fiddle with Ubuntu too much I reckon
14:08:52  <Sacro> what with needing OSS
14:08:56  <Brianetta> I've had Fedora, Trustix, Suse, Redhat and Slackware over the years
14:08:57  <SmatZ> peter1138: memory optimised :) hard to say something about performance... I have never looked at the generated code
14:09:03  <Brianetta> oh, and Gentoo
14:09:06  <peter1138> Hmm
14:09:09  <Brianetta> nearly forgot Gentoo
14:09:13  * welshdragon wants to play with hiscompany
14:09:22  <Celestar> peter1138: yes it is
14:09:26  <peter1138> I tried writing a variable length BitField type, but got stuck at saveload...
14:09:32  <welshdragon> but a reset is not allowed :(
14:09:34  * Sacro installs FreeDOS
14:09:43  <Brianetta> Sacro: What say you we knock this game on the head at 2030?
14:10:00  <welshdragon> to stop my moaning?
14:10:01  <Celestar> peter1138: at least my implementation of std::vector<bool> uses a bit per entry, and so should most other implementations
14:10:07  <Brianetta> yes, to stop your moaning
14:10:20  <Brianetta> You can always taka a saved game
14:10:26  <welshdragon> it's not my bloody fault
14:10:32  <Brianetta> I think it might be
14:10:51  <Brianetta> You passworded it, and didn't either remember it or make a permanent note of it.
14:10:55  <welshdragon> i gave Eoin the password, and h forgot it
14:11:06  <Brianetta> By an in-game PM
14:11:11  <welshdragon> yes
14:11:13  <Brianetta> You know they don't even stay on screen?
14:11:18  <welshdragon> ah
14:11:19  <Brianetta> They're not logged
14:11:24  <peter1138> 15:10  welshdragon> i gave Eoin the password, and h forgot it
14:11:29  <peter1138> And... so did you ;)
14:11:39  <welshdragon> true
14:12:03  <Gekz> I find the MacOS X the least fiddly of all OSes
14:12:07  <Gekz> I still hate it.
14:12:39  <welshdragon> Brianetta, start a new game then
14:12:56  * welshdragon will have to create another awesome junction
14:12:56  *** Belugas [~belugas@] has joined #openttd
14:12:57  *** mode/#openttd [+o Belugas] by ChanServ
14:12:58  <dih> Gekz: you are just not used to it
14:13:01  <dih> hello Belugas
14:13:02  <Sacro> Brianetta: fine with me, I'm still unsure how to start a new game too
14:13:10  <dih> welshdragon: suffer in silence
14:13:15  <Belugas> hello dih
14:13:15  <Sacro> i have little to no admin knowledge D:
14:13:23  <Gekz> dih: I use it all the time
14:13:28  <Gekz> I'm well and truly used to it
14:13:29  <Gekz> and I hate it.
14:13:42  <Brianetta> Sacro: Log in I'll show you
14:13:49  <Brianetta> phone call
14:13:59  <Sacro> Brianetta: in a bit, have to go to work
14:14:13  *** thingwath [] has joined #openttd
14:14:13  <welshdragon> Gekz, the fact that OSX failed in my school means i now hate it
14:14:18  *** thingwath [] has left #openttd []
14:14:29  <welshdragon> and hate apple stuff in general
14:14:31  <Gekz> welshdragon: your reason makes no sense to me.
14:14:39  * Sacro never used OSX at school
14:14:47  <Sacro> System 7 though...
14:14:50  <Sacro> and BBC Micros
14:14:57  <welshdragon> Gekz, it was used by over 300 imacs
14:15:04  <welshdragon> it sucked
14:15:16  <Gekz> it's still better than Windows.
14:15:26  <welshdragon> Gekz, nothing can beat windows
14:15:28  <Gekz> Sacro: haha Acorn
14:15:34  <Gekz> welshdragon: everything beats Windows.
14:15:39  <Eddi|zuHause> we had win 95 in school...
14:15:47  <Gekz> our ATMs run on Windows 95
14:15:52  <Gekz> and they're connected to the internet
14:15:53  <dih> welshdragon: you like blabbeling a bunch of nonsense when the day is long, eh?
14:15:55  <Sacro> Eddi|zuHause: we got win95 when i was in year 8
14:15:57  <Gekz> they're meant to be fucking secure
14:16:08  <Sacro> god, when i started secondary they had 486s with DOS and Win3.11
14:16:17  <Gekz> haha
14:16:19  <welshdragon> dih, i'm still pissed about last night
14:16:21  <Sacro> i'd come from Amigas and Macs and thought "Whoah, what an old system this must be"
14:16:22  <tegil> a while ago eh
14:16:32  <Gekz> Amigas ftw
14:16:33  <dih> welshdragon: i dont even want to know
14:16:36  <dih> :-P
14:16:38  <Gekz> I still have my Amiga 500
14:16:41  <Sacro> only realised last year that it was fairly modern and windows was years behind Workbench and Apple OS
14:16:46  <Gekz> reckon you can get OpenTTD to run on AmigaOS?
14:16:48  <Sacro> Gekz: yeah, me too
14:16:50  <Sacro> Gekz: MorphOS
14:16:53  <Gekz> no.
14:16:57  <Gekz> I dont have a PPC
14:17:02  <dih> ha!
14:17:05  <Gekz> MorphOS is PPC only.
14:17:05  <Sacro> Morphos is next gen WorkBench
14:17:16  <Sacro> or you mean on a 7.21Mhz 60200
14:17:17  <dih> morphos gcc sucks
14:17:21  <Sacro> err
14:17:22  <Eddi|zuHause> Gekz: ure it's "the internet" and not "a ppp connection to an isolated network"?
14:17:22  <Sacro> 68000
14:17:35  <Gekz> Eddi|zuHause: it's Australia. i'm pretty sure it's internet.
14:17:40  <Sacro> to work!
14:17:42  <Gekz> nothing is done right here >_>
14:17:48  <welshdragon> bye Sacro
14:18:00  <dih> Gekz: i would be pretty sure it's not the internet
14:18:02  <welshdragon> enjoy playing with your routers
14:18:16  <Celestar> O_o
14:18:16  <Eddi|zuHause> and win95 has by far less security holes than win2k+
14:18:29  * Celestar just reads the discussion about the OpenGFX license.
14:18:31  <dih> by far less != none!
14:18:38  <dih> Celestar: hehe
14:18:51  <[com]buster> win95 has one security hole
14:18:51  * welshdragon can't wait for OpenGFX
14:18:54  *** Pikkaa [PikkaBird@] has quit []
14:18:59  <[com]buster> it has *no security*
14:19:08  <[com]buster> :)
14:19:12  <Celestar> Just to make my point clear: Any license which will disallow including OpenGFX with linux distributions is completely pointless.
14:19:19  <dih> win95 _IS_ the security issue, anything prefixed with win is :-P
14:19:48  <Eddi|zuHause> it should be either GPL or cc-by(-sa), nothing else should be even remotely up to debate
14:20:40  <Eddi|zuHause> especially not -nc
14:20:55  <Brianetta> attributeoin share-alike is fine
14:20:57  <Celestar> so if it may not be included in a binary-only rpm/deb/whatever, what's the deal?
14:21:07  <Brianetta> what a hideous typo ):
14:21:33  <Gekz> so no-one has answered my question.
14:21:37  <Gekz> Amiga 500 + OpenTTD?
14:21:38  <Gekz> :P
14:21:48  *** ben_goodger [] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat]
14:22:32  <Celestar> Brianetta: what is cc-by-nc in non-lawyer-language?
14:23:06  <Brianetta> I'm not sure what the "by" is
14:24:03  <dih> Gekz: if you want somebody to spend dedicated time with your high priority issue, please draw a number and wait until it's called up
14:24:09  <Eddi|zuHause> nc=non-commercial
14:24:14  <Gekz> dih: nevah
14:24:21  <Gekz> by = attribution
14:24:27  <Gekz> sa = share-alike
14:24:54  <Eddi|zuHause> which would exclude most major linux distributions
14:25:18  <dih> i would love to hear from the devs if they would distribute OpenGFX with OpenTTD regardles of that license they choose
14:25:46  <Brianetta> has a long quiz that will generate a license for you, but doesn't appear to have the reverse (a "wtf does this string mean?" key)
14:25:54  <Gekz> what licence are they choosing?
14:26:04  <Gekz> Brianetta: i unobfuscated above
14:26:05  <dih> Gekz: read the thread
14:26:11  <Gekz> Brianetta: by = attribution
14:26:13  <Gekz> dih: links
14:26:17  <dih> SEARCH!
14:26:28  <Gekz> I'm trying to help you.
14:26:33  <Gekz> with minimal effort.
14:26:34  <dih> there are not that many OpenGFX threads in the graphics forum
14:26:41  <dih> i am not even after your help
14:27:14  <Belugas> let's call for a fund raising, in order to ask a lawyer about which distribution scheme we should use :P
14:27:28  <Celestar> \o/
14:27:31  <Celestar> good idea Belugas
14:28:15  <Rubidium> yeah... that would mean the graphics can never be released using nc because someone already made profit of the graphics
14:28:21  <Belugas> hem... no, not really... highly sarcastic...
14:28:23  <Gekz> cc-glCreative Commons Attribution 2.0 license (a.k.a. CC-BY)
14:28:24  <Gekz> This is a non-copyleft free license that is good for art and entertainment works, and educational works. Please don't use it for software or documentation, since it is incompatible with the GNU GPL and with the GNU FDL.
14:28:34  <Celestar> ok let me put it another way: I think any license which prevents OpenGFX to be shipped in a (commercial or non-commercial) linux distro is not acceptable.
14:28:37  <Gekz> Creative Commons publishes many licenses which are very different. Therefore, to say that a work “uses a Creative Commons license” is to leave the principal questions about the work's licensing unanswered. When you see such a statement in a work, please ask the author to highlight the substance of the license choices. And if someone proposes to “use a Creative Commons license” for a certain work, it is vital to ask immediately, â€
14:29:05  <Belugas> VITAL
14:29:07  <Belugas> oh yeah
14:29:13  <Belugas> so true...
14:29:27  <Gekz> LOL
14:29:31  <Gekz> lol*
14:29:33  <Brianetta> Gekz: At least paste in using the UTF8 character set
14:30:20  <Gekz> I did.
14:30:28  <Brianetta> ”
14:30:30  <Gekz> I can't use anything else.
14:30:39  <Gekz> I dont have the codepages other than utf8
14:30:47  <Gekz> the site probably crapped out at me.
14:31:12  <peter1138> May have been cropped off the end of the line.
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14:31:29  <Gekz> possibly.
14:31:34  *** ben_goodger [] has joined #openttd
14:31:52  <Gekz> anywho, I am going to sleep. Creative Commons is unacceptalbe.
14:31:56  <Gekz> albe ftw.
14:32:53  <peter1138> Can I re-license something that is 'public domain'?
14:34:55  <dih> with agreement of all authors / contributors ?
14:35:21  <yorick> "Dedicator recognizes that, once placed in the public domain, the Work may be freely reproduced, distributed, transmitted, used, modified, built upon, or otherwise exploited by anyone for any purpose, commercial or non-commercial, and in any way, including by methods that have not yet been invented or conceived."
14:37:15  <yorick> I think you can't relicense
14:37:24  <yorick> if it's the GPL one
14:37:42  <peter1138> Seems you can.
14:37:55  <yorick> that quote is from the creative commons page
14:38:35  <Celestar> bah
14:38:42  <peter1138> Celestar?
14:38:58  <Celestar> there are more CC license types than there are pebbles on this planet
14:39:24  <Celestar> and what the hell is dfsg??
14:39:39  <Rubidium> debian free software guideline
14:39:41  <peter1138> Debian Free Software Guidelines
14:40:08  <peter1138> Their own take on what is or is not free...
14:40:30  <Celestar> uh huh
14:40:42  <Rubidium> like everything that forces an eula isn't free
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14:41:06  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: you can only license something that you are the owner of, and public domain does not allow that
14:41:38  <Belugas> so does it means that OpenTTD will need to get ownershp of the work?
14:43:01  <Eddi|zuHause> Belugas: not if you have a license that allows sublicensing
14:43:30  * Belugas feels sick about that licensing stuff... truely
14:44:24  <TrueBrain> I agree with Belugas
14:44:28  <penfold> Belugas: Agreed. It is a concern indeed.
14:45:04  <Belugas> i think (personally) that anything distributed by OpenTTD should be the sole property of OpenTTD, and OpenTTD will be the one granted the licensing it wants to attribute to the work
14:45:59  <Belugas> agreed, mentionning who is the artist is a good and polite thing, but let's be serious:  who has a special liencing for the patch he has seen included?
14:46:05  <blathijs> Belugas: Is there such a thing as "OpenTTD" ?
14:46:15  <TrueBrain> OpenTTD Team :)
14:46:20  <blathijs> AFAIK, the OpenTTD source is also still owned by the individual contributors
14:46:49  * yorick owns OpenTTD :-p
14:46:51  <Belugas> the OpenTTD organization, if you will :)
14:47:07  <Eddi|zuHause> in germany, there are certain copyrights that you can _never_ give up
14:47:11  <Belugas> yorick, you almost owned a kick ;)
14:47:11  <TrueBrain> the website is owned by 'OpenTTD Team'
14:47:48  <TrueBrain> I said before to a few devs, there should be a document that any and all patches you contribute, are immediatly property of OpenTTD Team (who ever that might be :p)
14:48:01  <Eddi|zuHause> these must be held by the real person who created the work, they cannot be given to a legal entity (like a company, or "The OpenTTD Team")
14:48:10  <TrueBrain> and that by giving a patch, you agree that it will be GPL'd :p
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14:48:19  <Brianetta> Belugas: If something is distributed under the GPL, you can include it with OpenTTD in safety.  In this case, it's no different to any other contribution.  You (the maintaining team) don't own copyright to all contributions, but you are licensed to use and distribute them as part of the product.
14:48:20  <Kasceh> Why isn't my configure patches options saving?
14:48:41  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: no copyright or license can ever be held by a non-legal 'person' (where 'person' in fact can be an organization)
14:48:52  <Kasceh> Anyone have any idea?
14:49:04  <Brianetta> Kasceh: Are you changing it within a game?
14:49:16  <Kasceh> Yes, is that the problem?
14:49:17  <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: "legal" person is a superset of "real" person (as in human)
14:49:18  <TrueBrain> Brianetta: still it is a dangerous slope, as I can request to remove my 'contributaions' ;)
14:49:21  <Brianetta> It only changes it for that game
14:49:27  <Kasceh> Ahhh, kk :)
14:49:27  <yorick> Kasceh: it will only apply to that game
14:49:32  <Kasceh> Thanks
14:49:42  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: that I said, didn't I? :)
14:50:07  <dih> Kasceh: there is a command called saveconfig ;-)
14:50:16  <Brianetta> TrueBrain: You can; depends how they're submitted.  If they're submitted for inclusion, I think any court would back your assumption of GPL.  If they're just on the forum as a "here's a patch that does X," you're not so safe.
14:50:20  <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: in germany, copyright is always with a real person, while any other legal persons must live with a license
14:50:23  <Kasceh> Thanks Dih
14:50:27  <dih> _d_
14:50:32  <dih> ;-)
14:50:37  <yorick> lowercase d
14:50:52  <TrueBrain> Brianetta: exactly my point ;) And making things depending on court ... well .. you can better make a document which state what is happening ;)
14:51:16  <yorick> is the new website going to be at svn?
14:51:17  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: that sucks ;)
14:51:21  * dih needs to find a new colocator (a cheap one)
14:51:29  <Brianetta> TrueBrain: Yes.  Unfortunately, all copyright infringement, even though criminal, has to be tested by court.
14:51:35  <TrueBrain> but I believe something like that is true in The Netherlands too ..
14:51:37  <dih> yorick: yes, but not publicly avail for people like you :-P
14:51:39  <TrueBrain> I never understood legal shit :p
14:51:54  <TrueBrain> Brianetta: hehe, true; but that was not what I meant :)
14:52:02  <TrueBrain> then again, GPL hasn't been battle in court anyway ..
14:52:14  <Brianetta> People are scared of it.
14:52:25  <yorick> it works.
14:52:27  <Brianetta> If it's upheld as-is, ,any companies will have to change practises.
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14:52:39  <Brianetta> s/,any/many/
14:52:41  <TrueBrain> it wouldn't suprise me that you can't have GPL like licenses in,s ay, 10 years
14:53:01  <Eddi|zuHause> there are certain special cases, where copyright does not hold, like "insignificant" parts.
14:53:02  <TrueBrain> that Open Source dies because of court-rules :p
14:53:03  <Brianetta> I'd like to see which countries legislate for that, and how
14:53:07  <dih> never been tried, it's a very beautiful part of GPL
14:53:37  <Celestar> Creative Commons Attribution-Sharealike 2.0 license (a.k.a. CC-BY-SA)
14:53:37  <Celestar> This is a copyleft free license that is good for artistic and entertainment works, and educational works. Please don't use it for software or documentation, since it is incompatible with the GNU GPL and with the GNU FDL.
14:53:48  <Celestar> very helpful :P
14:54:01  <Brianetta> GPL isn't illegal; it's just a license.  You can choose to abide by the license agreement, or you can choose not to use the work.  It's a simple choice.
14:54:02  <dih> heh
14:54:03  <Eddi|zuHause> like one person sued because another person copied HTML-code, but lost the case, because the original HTML-code was autogenerated, so it did not fall under copyright
14:54:05  <TrueBrain> rather: useless, Celestar ;)
14:54:25  <Brianetta> It's extremely difficult to outlaw that
14:54:37  <Brianetta> since you'd be calling into question contract law in general
14:54:37  <TrueBrain> Brianetta: I wish it was that simple ;)
14:54:42  *** Zorni is now known as Zorn
14:54:55  <Brianetta> TrueBrain: It's that simple in the USA and UK
14:55:11  <Celestar> Rubidium: peter1138: Has any of us ever expressed what kind of licensing we _expect_?
14:55:19  <Brianetta> Where it's less simple is where somebody challenges the original application of the GPL to a work
14:55:32  <Brianetta> Such as Ludde's application of the GPL to his decompilation
14:55:55  <blathijs> Brianetta: When patches are submitted, aren't they by definition GPL? If a patch is a derevitive work, then there is no other choice for the author of the patch.
14:56:03  <Brianetta> blathijs: No, they are not
14:56:07  <dih> Celestar: that is waht i am waiting for....
14:56:11  <Brianetta> A patch is not a derivative work
14:56:20  <Brianetta> and this is how lame (the MP3 encoder) got around patents
14:56:21  <peter1138> Celestar, expect for what?
14:56:28  <blathijs> Brianetta: Hmm, I always thought they were. The resulting program is, I think?
14:56:34  <Brianetta> It was a patch to a reference implementation
14:56:41  <dih> peter1138: OpenGFX
14:56:51  <Brianetta> blathijs: The resulting program, in the case of lame, couldn't legally be distributed
14:56:58  <dih> what would you be willing to distribute with OpenTTD
14:57:09  <Brianetta> You had to get one set of source code, patch it, and not distribute the resulting object code
14:57:10  <dih> i.e. if OpenGFX was gonna go some odd cc thing
14:57:10  <Rubidium> Brianetta, I'd say: if you don't include a license in the patch, it falls under the same license as the patched stuff
14:57:31  <Brianetta> Rubidium: You might say that.  The author of the patch can easily claim otherwise.
14:57:44  <Brianetta> You can try to get a court to back your assumption, but you need legal support for that.
14:57:53  <Brianetta> You might win!
14:57:58  <Belugas> ho bullock...
14:58:04  <dih> if it's a patch for a gpl project, it cannot be licensed otherwise anyway
14:58:09  * Belugas goes somewhere else more pleasant to read...
14:58:38  <Brianetta> dih: It can
14:58:54  <Rubidium> dih: not true; if you add a complete new file with all kinds of functions that can be licensed under another license
14:58:56  <TrueBrain> dih: only if your want your patch inlucded, it can't
14:59:17  <dih> Rubidium: that sounds more like a feature than a simple patch :-P
14:59:32  <Brianetta> dih: Define the difference. In court.
14:59:46  <blathijs> Perhaps we should always explicitely require patch authors to state their patches are GPL ?
14:59:51  <dih> when i get a chance to i'll do my best :-P
14:59:52  <blathijs> Include it in a FAQ somewhere
14:59:54  <Eddi|zuHause> dih: "feature" and "patch" are two entirely different things
15:00:03  <Rubidium> but IMO you should add a license to the new files, otherwise it might be caught by the license of the rest of the code
15:00:26  <TrueBrain> blathijs: as I said, I think we should make something where a patch author agrees upon before adding it in SVN :)
15:00:29  <peter1138> 95GB!
15:00:30  <Eddi|zuHause> doesn't the GPL require that the GPL text is attached to every file?
15:00:38  <yorick> it does
15:00:43  <TrueBrain> peter1138: it is going slower, not?
15:00:46  <dih> make a webpage where people can submit patches / features and they have to tick a box stating they agree with the code bing under GPL
15:00:49  <peter1138> Probably.
15:00:51  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: at least the header, yes
15:01:18  <Brianetta> dih:
15:01:31  <blathijs> dih: Requiring an explicity comment in Flyspray is probably better
15:01:50  <TrueBrain> either way, how ever you look at all of this: licensing sucks, and it sucks even more people abuse it ..
15:02:18  <TrueBrain> then agian .. OpenTTD 0.1 was reversed engineerd ... :p
15:02:28  <peter1138> Quite.
15:02:32  <yorick> max_age - age = time_to_live, isn't it?
15:02:41  <yorick> v->*
15:03:11  <Brianetta> The reverse engineering is the biggest legal problem OpenTTD is likely to face.
15:03:37  <dih> TrueBrain: how about some kind of gforge page for 3rd party openttd related projects? :-D
15:03:45  <TrueBrain> but first .. they need to find a legal person to blame :p
15:04:03  <dih> and require all projects to be GPL if they want to use the services
15:04:05  <dih> :-P
15:04:06  <Brianetta> This is why I've not committed any code to the project.
15:04:23  <TrueBrain> if you want to be license safe, I say: make it Public Domain ;)
15:04:24  <dih> Brianetta: (
15:04:27  <Brianetta> If I did, I'd disclaim any interest
15:04:49  <TrueBrain> Brianetta: well, can a patch maker be held responsible for the original state of the code he is writing a patch for?
15:05:02  <TrueBrain> if the patch itself doens't contain any code which is illegal
15:05:15  <Celestar> I'm off
15:05:18  <TrueBrain> bye Celestar :)
15:05:19  <Celestar> going to Berlin tomorrow
15:05:21  <Celestar> cu Friday
15:05:22  <Brianetta> TrueBrain: I have no idea.  A court would decide.
15:05:23  <Celestar> \o
15:05:29  <Brianetta> It always comes back to courts.
15:05:29  *** Celestar [~Jadzia_Da@] has quit [Quit: leaving]
15:05:37  <TrueBrain> Brianetta: from what I have read so far, the patch maker can never be blamed
15:05:40  <TrueBrain> he didn't know better
15:05:45  * Brianetta shrugs
15:05:51  <TrueBrain> (unelss of course he was explicitly told so and needed to sign what ever for it :p)
15:06:05  <Brianetta> I'm not qualified to give legal advice.
15:06:23  * penfold goes to find a copyright lawyer :)
15:06:29  <TrueBrain> penfold: pleaes do :)
15:06:45  <TrueBrain> Brianetta: well, I wish there was a court over this
15:06:46  <Brianetta> This is why I keep trotting out the court line.  It's where law gets clarified.
15:06:49  <TrueBrain> settles it once and for all :)
15:06:52  <Brianetta> Yes.
15:07:07  <TrueBrain> hehe, like rejecting a spam-law ..
15:07:40  <yorick> Eddi: sorting by remaining life time is possibly not so easy, as dates are int32
15:08:02  <yorick> and they can be over -age
15:08:09  *** Prof_Frink [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:08:09  * yorick would like uint33
15:08:23  <Brianetta> yorick: How would that matter?  Negative numbers are perfectly sortable.
15:08:29  <yorick> yes
15:08:40  <TrueBrain> anyway, the only reason I am not pro-OpenGFX .. OpenTTD now stimulates the sells of TT, and so no court will judge we are withholding funds of TT :)
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15:08:53  <yorick> Brianetta: it's more about the "32" part
15:09:07  <yorick> return values for the sorter functions are only 8-bit
15:09:08  <Brianetta> yorick: Again: subtract one from the other, then sort.
15:09:36  <Brianetta> It's not like your vehicles will be two centuries old
15:10:05  <peter1138> Which sorter functions?
15:10:05  <yorick> they could
15:10:22  <yorick> the vehicleguilist sorter
15:10:43  <peter1138> They're ints.
15:10:45  <peter1138> So 32 bits.
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15:10:47  <dih> penfold: i am sure marjacq would love to talk to you :-P
15:11:22  <yorick> I shall just clamp :-p
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15:12:04  <dih> TrueBrain: that TT selling is unimportant
15:12:20  <dih> as neither Atari nor marjacq get profit from that, as it's all second hand
15:12:35  <dih> no new copies being produced
15:12:37  <TrueBrain> dih: not our problem, is it? :)
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15:12:51  <dih> no - not a problem, just not a valid argument either
15:12:57  <TrueBrain> we do our best to give money to the people who it belongs to
15:13:28  <TrueBrain> dih: the point here is, in my experience people only go to court if they think they lose profit because of something
15:16:40  <TrueBrain> I think I need a new BNC ... :(
15:16:46  <TrueBrain> (no, not the network component :p)
15:16:52  <Eddi|zuHause> i might be a problem, because technically, openttd is currently generating "profit" because it forces people to buy the original game, this "profit" would be gone when a free gfx set is distributed with the game
15:16:52  <dih> TrueBrain: you dont :-P
15:16:57  <dih> just need to optimize it
15:17:10  <Eddi|zuHause> *it
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15:18:01  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: that is wha tI meant, yes :)
15:18:14  <TrueBrain> dih: ... :(
15:18:55  <Swallow> even with opengfx, is still needed, so having a copy of TTD would still be required
15:19:00  <Belugas> Eddi|zuHause, the said profit is not in our pocket, so it's indirect profit
15:19:15  <Eddi|zuHause> not "our" profit, "their" profit
15:19:17  <TrueBrain> Swallow: and you think that is a 'real' problem, the requirement for
15:19:27  <TrueBrain> Belugas: he didn't mean 'our' profit ;)
15:19:33  <Eddi|zuHause> if "they" lose that profit, they might consider to start sueing
15:19:50  <TrueBrain> I have counted 3 patches in the last 4 years removing the need for ''
15:19:57  <dih> Swallow: touch <- empty file!
15:19:57  <Belugas> "they" would loose profit if sales of TTD was still happening
15:20:04  <TrueBrain> (did you know I still have NO idea what is in that file)
15:20:05  <Belugas> not the case
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15:20:23  <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: samples, obviously ;)
15:20:33  <peter1138> It's a catalogue of samples :D
15:20:37  *** welshdragon2 is now known as welshdragon
15:20:44  <TrueBrain> samples of WHAT?
15:20:49  <TrueBrain> species?
15:20:50  <Swallow> sound?
15:20:52  <Eddi|zuHause> the sound effects
15:21:11  <Eddi|zuHause> "*Tuuut* *Tuuut*" "*dingdingding*"
15:21:14  <peter1138> The bit that makes the annoying DING DING DING when you start it up...
15:21:14  <TrueBrain> orudge: you refered in an OpenTTD topic to a junction website which states is only for TTDPatch!!!! :p :p (sorry, had to ..)
15:21:18  <tegil> haha
15:21:29  <TrueBrain> peter1138: ah :) That is why I never 'missed' it :)
15:21:38  <peter1138> Actually it's the HONK HONK that's annoying.
15:21:49  <tegil> or the vehicles starting
15:21:50  <tegil> wruuuuum
15:22:07  <dih> where is the sound replacement project at?
15:22:09  <TrueBrain> in fact ... all the sounds ...
15:22:12  <Eddi|zuHause> i find the *dingdingding* most annoying, because it happens the most times
15:22:34  <Eddi|zuHause> dih: in a forum thread?
15:22:45  <Eddi|zuHause> *Dih
15:22:47  <Eddi|zuHause> :p
15:22:50  <Brianetta> OpenTTD.  DindindingHORNKdingHORNK
15:22:57  <Brianetta> That's the main menu screen
15:23:09  <Brianetta> It's also the "you've been desynced" sound (:
15:23:13  <TrueBrain> Dih: in the freezer of orudge :)
15:23:23  <dih> _d_
15:23:31  <peter1138> Brianetta :D
15:23:33  <TrueBrain> Brianetta: lol :)
15:23:44  <yorick> -D-
15:24:05  <planetmaker> [16:52]	<TrueBrain>	then again, GPL hasn't been battle in court anyway .. <-- not true
15:24:09  <dih> Brianetta: LOL
15:24:23  * Brianetta beams
15:24:26  <Brianetta> I said something lolworthy
15:24:42  <TrueBrain> planetmaker: gimme one that wasn't settled :)
15:25:02  <planetmaker> I think the one against netgear.
15:25:11  <planetmaker> But not entirely sure.
15:25:28  <TrueBrain> busybox: settled
15:26:30  <TrueBrain> oh, I just found that German court acknowledge GPL
15:26:37  <planetmaker> :)
15:26:38  <TrueBrain> (in a precedent)
15:26:47  <TrueBrain> but then again, Germans are known for weird laws
15:26:55  <planetmaker> :P
15:27:25  <planetmaker> biggest software market within the EU though :)
15:28:25  <TrueBrain> but besides the German one, I can't find any referense to one that wasn't dismissed, settled, or otherwise discontinued before the court ruled...
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15:29:38  <planetmaker> that I don't know.
15:30:01  <TrueBrain> I would like to read more about that stuff .. but okay .. :)
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15:31:12  <planetmaker> <-- but obviously you can even sue foreign companies as long as their software is used in Germany, too (link is in German)
15:31:47  <Belugas> ho... an idea... we will not use OpenGFX !
15:31:52  <Belugas> no issues, no problems :D
15:32:02  <peter1138> Indeed. I prefer the original graphics ;)
15:32:05  <planetmaker> :D
15:32:12  <peter1138> Although my new GPL graphics set will rock.
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15:32:52  <planetmaker> concerning OpenGFX. It would probably help a lot, if you devs say we accept licenses A, B, C. Use that or bugger off
15:33:34  <peter1138> Not really. I don't think anyone ever said that 'OpenGFX' would be distributed with OpenTTD.
15:33:57  <peter1138> Well, they might've done :D
15:34:16  <planetmaker> peter1138: but that's the intention of the whole project, isn't it? So that there can be a completely functional download w/o the need of TTDX original files...?
15:34:17  <blathijs> peter1138: Are you saying we shouldn't?
15:34:37  <dih> peter1138: Belugas: may i quote you in the OpenGFX threads? :-D
15:34:42  <peter1138> Certainly not at the moment. It's not finished.
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15:35:38  <planetmaker> peter1138: that may or not be so. But the motivation is from the aim. And a word from you devs what kind of licenses will make you do that once done will work wonders IMO
15:36:05  <planetmaker> At least on some. Others might then know what to work with :)
15:36:19  <dih> yes - i second that planetmaker
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15:36:30  <peter1138> I was replying to blathijs :)
15:36:53  <Belugas> dih, whaty you can do is summ up allthe different "options" and "arguments" been throwed here and there regarding which ever types of licensing been proposed.  make pros and cons with keeping in mind that we're not talking ionly about germany's couert stuff...
15:36:55  <Belugas> therefor,
15:36:57  <planetmaker> I figured :) Doesn't change what I said ;)
15:37:36  <blathijs> peter1138: That makes sense.
15:37:36  <Belugas> right now, i'm pretty much pissed to see that no matter which liciensing been proposed, there is still someone objecting for this or tyhat
15:37:41  <Belugas> it goes nowhere
15:37:52  <Belugas> bike-shed-painting...
15:37:58  <blathijs> planetmaker: I agree that selecting a license is good for the long term, since relicensing afterwards will be bitchy
15:38:29  <dih> blathijs: it also would settle the entire situation a lot faster :-P
15:38:54  <yorick> there goes another small patch to flyspray, to be lost with the mass of 291 others, not to be found for another 500 revisions
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15:39:20  <dih> yorick: why do you ALWAYS have to announce anything you do and or see on FS?
15:39:33  <Brianetta> He has an ego.
15:39:34  <yorick> because dorpsgek doesn't do it anymore
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15:39:37  <dih> yorick: it's simply enough though if you say !fs
15:39:47  <dih> yorick: for reasons!
15:39:48  <Brianetta> !fs
15:39:55  <dih> damn it glx
15:39:57  <dih> :-P
15:40:19  <peter1138> planetmaker, there has been no group discussion on it, so I can't say.
15:40:25  <dih> i wait for you before tricking someone into saying a !command and you dont work!
15:40:30  <glx> dih: this never triggered a kick
15:40:46  <dih> i thought you had a type of regex :-P
15:40:50  <dih> hihi
15:40:59  <yorick> !rcon pause
15:41:03  <peter1138> blathijs, there's a post in their threads somewhere where I said they need to decide before doing anything ;)
15:41:07  <peter1138> blathijs, of course, they didn't...
15:41:15  *** mode/#openttd [+b *!*Yorick@*] by peter1138
15:41:15  *** yorick was kicked from #openttd by peter1138 [Yes yes]
15:41:23  <glx> hehe
15:41:33  <dih> ;-)
15:41:52  <glx> I was about to use !kick
15:42:07  <dih> aint gonna work in here!
15:42:26  <glx> it does (my client transfer it to DorpsGek)
15:42:32  <dih> hehe - nice :-)
15:42:34  <glx> but only for me
15:42:39  <dih> but @kick is nicer :-P
15:43:05  *** dih was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [yes but is 'hidden']
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15:43:32  <glx> stupid script, it intercepted the second !kick
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15:43:49  <peter1138> Oh, was that accidental?
15:44:07  *** mode/#openttd [-b *!*Yorick@*] by peter1138
15:44:13  <glx> no the kick was intended, just the message failed a little
15:44:18  <peter1138> Ahh
15:44:23  <dih> ;-)
15:47:22  <planetmaker> [17:40]	<peter1138>	planetmaker, there has been no group discussion on it, so I can't say. <-- maybe you do that sometime :) so you can speak with one official voice on this issue :)
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15:53:46  <TrueBrain> planetmaker: like we ever did something remotely like that :)
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15:56:14  * Belugas yans
15:56:26  * TrueBrain gives Belugas a towl
15:56:48  <Belugas> another one please, all wetty :)
15:57:06  <TrueBrain> ieuw
15:57:38  <dih> Belugas: go to the toilet....
15:57:51  <Belugas> with you sweety?
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16:00:25  <orudge> [16:21:15] <TrueBrain> orudge: you refered in an OpenTTD topic to a junction website which states is only for TTDPatch!!!! :p :p (sorry, had to ..) <-- OpenTTD didn't exist (as OpenTTD, at least) at the time though ;)
16:00:44  <orudge> and the sound replacement project was going reasonably well
16:00:55  <orudge> I did get it all into a bundle and wrote some code to make use of it
16:00:59  <orudge> but then I've been busy
16:01:07  <orudge> and it's sitting, as TrueBrain says, in the freezer that is my hard disk :p
16:01:24  *** Swallow [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:01:33  <dih> thaw it orudge
16:05:00  <Rexxars> is it edible?
16:05:09  <Rexxars> cause I'm hungry
16:05:26  <orudge> WELL
16:05:28  <orudge> *well
16:05:33  <orudge> I think I posted a test binary or something in the topic
16:06:05  *** Fuco [] has quit [Quit: Quit]
16:06:29  <orudge>
16:06:31  <Belugas> anyine used a VERIFONE SC5000 PINPad before?
16:06:43  <orudge> will need a fair bit of updating though if you want to use it with the latest trunk
16:07:56  <Belugas> what saddens me, orudge, is the requirement of having new code for the replacement :(  It would have been nice if no new code was required, simple old format
16:08:00  <Belugas> but that's just me
16:08:04  <orudge> Belugas: well
16:08:06  <orudge> that's possible
16:08:07  <orudge> but
16:08:17  <orudge> well
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16:08:23  <orudge> I guess for a simple sfx replacement, the current mixer can be used
16:08:29  <orudge> but it needs a littel bit of tweaking
16:08:33  <orudge> I did do this some time ago
16:08:43  <orudge> and then minor changes (which are in that patch) are needed in the .cat reading code
16:08:55  <orudge> the new mixer is mainly for the benefit of my new music patch
16:09:17  <peter1138> Hah, I just noticed that Zephyris' signature is animated :D
16:09:49  <orudge> My original new music patch used a version of the current mixer
16:09:52  * peter1138 agrees with Belugas. While the changes may've been nice, it's not simply sound replacement.
16:09:53  <orudge> but it was in some ways a hack
16:09:56  <orudge> well
16:10:01  <orudge> plain old sound replacement is easier
16:10:11  <orudge> and I could quite easily knock up a patch for that that doesn't involve a new mixer
16:10:29  <orudge> the changes required are fairly minimal
16:12:48  <orudge> I may have a fiddle after dinner
16:19:40  * yorick wonders how many times svn co svn:// && cd custombridgeheads && svn merge svn:// will say conflict
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16:21:01  <Eddi|zuHause> <peter1138> Hah, I just noticed that Zephyris' signature is animated :D <- the cute horsies, yes ;)
16:32:03  <peter1138> For mobile hard drives, what is more rugged, 2.5" or 3.5"?
16:32:43  * Belugas has seen more 3.5 crashes then 2.5
16:32:52  <Belugas> dunno if it's worth saying
16:33:58  <peter1138> The drive will be plugged into a machine, data backed up onto it, and then transported elsewhere. It won't be moved while in use.
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16:37:24  <Bjarni> * Belugas has seen more 3.5 crashes then 2.5 <-- me too. However the 3.5" disks are more reliable if you look at how many % of the drives that died
16:37:48  <Bjarni> as I lost 25% of the 2.5" drives
16:38:03  <Bjarni> that's 1 out of 4 ;)
16:38:17  <Bjarni> bbl
16:40:21  <yorick> I can't reach
16:40:33  <Forked> but you're not sure?
16:40:36  * peter1138 ponders a RAID of backup disks :p
16:41:25  <yorick> ah, it's 150!
16:41:30  <yorick> 150 times!
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16:43:28  <Belugas> solid state disks ;)
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16:59:31  <peter1138> Belugas, expensive :o
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17:12:34  <Swallow_> Is there any difference between using this: "RailVehInfo(v->engine_type)->railveh_type == RAILVEH_WAGON" and this: "IsTrainWagon(v)" ?
17:15:18  <FauxFaux> Check the code..?
17:16:45  *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@] has joined #openttd
17:16:48  <Wolf01> hello
17:16:58  <frosch123> Swallow_: yes
17:16:59  <Bjarni> use IsTrainWagon()
17:17:10  <Wolf01> what's 'THIS'?
17:17:24  <yorick> where is 'THIS'
17:17:28  <Wolf01> topic
17:17:39  <Wolf01> I read topics :D
17:17:40  <Swallow_> Bjarni: thanks
17:17:41  <yorick> it said "THIS IS NOT A PSYCIC SUPPORT CHANNEL"
17:17:46  <Swallow_> ^^
17:17:47  <Eddi|zuHause> the rest of the sentence has been chopped off
17:18:12  <frosch123> Swallow_: i.e. w RAILVEH_WAGON can also be a TS_FREE_WAGON
17:18:30  <Bjarni> Swallow_: IsTrainWagon() asserts if the argument isn't a rail vehicle so you should make sure of that first
17:18:42  <Eddi|zuHause> apparently, chanserv has a shorter topic storage than the network allows ;)
17:19:20  <yorick> bugsies
17:19:22  <Eddi|zuHause> and also apparently, nobody has bothered to fix it...
17:19:29  <Swallow_> frosch123: AFAIK a vehicle can have multiple types, so a TS_FREE_WAGON could also be a TS_WAGON, not sure though
17:19:40  <yorick> but has this channel been empty then?
17:20:03  <Bjarni> I don't think so
17:20:08  <Bjarni> but I can kick everybody
17:20:10  <frosch123> Swallow_: a enum is not a bitset
17:20:38  <Swallow_> return HasBit(v->subtype, TS_WAGON);
17:20:57  <Swallow_> is used in IsTrainWagon(v)
17:21:10  <peter1138> yorick, except I spelled it correctly.
17:21:39  <yorick> yes, except you spelled it correctly
17:22:39  <Bjarni> Swallow_: you shouldn't think about this. You see you should just use IsTrainWagon(). This will make it easier to change how the info is stored if needed
17:22:51  <Bjarni> you see we already changed that one time
17:23:56  <Bjarni> and if only train.h bothers with how it's stored, it's possible to change. It's no fun to alter 30 files if you could do with only changing one file
17:24:36  <Swallow_> Ok, I will use IsTrainWagon(v), thanks for help
17:26:57  <glx> @op
17:27:00  *** mode/#openttd [+o glx] by DorpsGek
17:27:16  *** glx changed the topic of #openttd to: 0.6.2 | Website: * (Translator: translator2, Gameservers: servers, Nightly-builds: nightly, WIKI: wiki, Dev-docs: docs, Patches & Bug-reports: bugs, Revision log: vcs, Release info: finger) | #openttd.notice for FS + SVN notices | UTF-8 please | No Unauthorised Bots | We Love YAPP | THIS IS NOT A PSYCIC SUPPORT CHANNEL
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17:27:27  <glx> @deop
17:27:28  *** mode/#openttd [-o glx] by DorpsGek
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17:29:11  <TrueBrain> PSYCIC?
17:29:34  * glx slaps yorick for not pasting the right thing
17:29:36  <glx> @op
17:29:40  *** mode/#openttd [+o glx] by DorpsGek
17:29:43  *** glx changed the topic of #openttd to: 0.6.2 | Website: * (Translator: translator2, Gameservers: servers, Nightly-builds: nightly, WIKI: wiki, Dev-docs: docs, Patches & Bug-reports: bugs, Revision log: vcs, Release info: finger) | #openttd.notice for FS + SVN notices | UTF-8 please | No Unauthorised Bots | We Love YAPP | THIS IS NOT A PSYCHIC SUPPORT CHANNEL
17:29:47  <Eddi|zuHause> <yorick> but has this channel been empty then? <- akill *@*
17:29:50  <yorick> heh
17:30:03  <TrueBrain> glx: yeah, I was wondering which one you ment :) Could also have been phsysics :)
17:30:23  <yorick> now it's more like a PSY-CHICK
17:31:39  <Belugas> lesson for life... never trust a yorick!
17:31:39  <Wolf01> PSY-KICK
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17:31:50  <TrueBrain> it smells like a yorick kick
17:32:04  <Wolf01> hello Belugas!
17:32:12  <Belugas> mister Wolf01!
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17:32:37  <Eddi|zuHause> am i psychic when i predict a yorick kick?
17:33:21  <yorick> truebrain can smell those kicks from 10km away!
17:33:28  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: no, that is just a logic chain of events
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17:33:57  <Eddi|zuHause> well, i could phrase it in a more nostradamus-y way :p
17:36:01  <Belugas> yorick, by the way, nice stuff for sort_by_lifetime.diff :)
17:36:17  <yorick> thanks :-)
17:36:37  <Belugas> se, i'mnot always a bad whale ;)
17:36:55  <yorick> most of the time
17:37:07  <yorick> and you are always plural :)
17:38:56  <Belugas> yeah... i know..  it was a mistake i did from my forum's inscritption
17:39:01  <Belugas> long stoty
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17:47:51  <planetmaker> Belugas: sounds like an interesting story :)
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17:55:04  <sulai> hi ho =)
17:55:30  <sulai> how do you like this station window
17:55:54  <Forked> hum, when I press the "latest screenshot from 0.6.2" on the frong page it takes me to screenshots.. and top there is r10000 and 0.5.0. Am I blind that can't see anything newer? :)
17:56:23  <hylje> ratings could be colorcoded in each cargo description
17:56:27  <peter1138> There are none.
17:56:55  <Forked> screenshots? but the picture advertises with "Latest User Screenshot of 0.6.2" :p
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17:58:08  <sulai> hylje: yes, but away from that, I like the idea to have no ratings button, but have the ratings integrated in the station window.
17:58:19  <sulai> I already wrote a patch for that =)
17:58:58  <sulai> I'd like to ask for general feedback ;)
17:59:18  <sulai> and maybe a dev can have a look at the patch
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18:06:02  <planetmaker> I like the idea of the rating shown directly, sulai :)
18:06:28  <planetmaker> I think, though, that it would make more sense to integrate the rating somehow with the waiting cargo display
18:06:55  <Belugas> why ? it's not everyone who cares for that
18:06:58  <Belugas> some do, some don't
18:07:20  <planetmaker> Belugas: true. But that's no reason to not show it.
18:09:35  <Belugas> and it's not a reason to show it either, imho
18:09:46  <planetmaker> maybe it suffices to put the percentage next to waiting cargo. Whether it's very good, good, outstanding or so is duplication of information
18:10:05  <Belugas> i nderstand the good it wants to achieve, don't misunderstand me
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18:11:05  <planetmaker> Belugas: :) Time is money. And clicks are bad ;). And if a person choses to ignore that info, it won't hurt.
18:11:54  <planetmaker> otoh, if you want it, you have to click currently... and mostly I'm only interested in the percentage, not the translation of that into text
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18:14:29  <sulai> planetmaker: otoh, if you want it, you have to click currently... and mostly I'm only interested in the percentage <- yeah right ;)
18:14:53  <sulai> I *allways* click that "Ratings" button
18:16:02  <Belugas> ** plunk **
18:16:13  <planetmaker> :) Well... I don't need always that info as much waiting cargo also tells something, but...
18:16:34  <planetmaker> hm... you try to tell us something Belugas ?
18:18:00  <yorick> Forked: advertising with "latest user screenshot of 0.5.0", "current version: 0.6.2" does not make much sense
18:19:10  <peter1138> 97GB!
18:19:11  <Belugas> and what if i am far more worried about my rating in regards of the town i am working on right now, shold i move the ratio in front gui too?
18:19:12  <peter1138> :o
18:19:37  *** CIA-2 [~CIA@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:19:48  <planetmaker> Belugas: I think I have seen such patch already...
18:20:07  <Belugas> ho... of course... it makes it now a valid one, right?
18:20:12  <Belugas> ** plunk **
18:20:16  <planetmaker> :P
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18:20:53  <planetmaker> certainly not. But as an option (like with transparency Ctrl+X) it might be nice :)
18:20:59  <Belugas> and if i care far more about my loans, as to get them replaid, shold i add a button ton the toolbar just tfor that??
18:21:10  <planetmaker> no :)
18:21:31  <peter1138> Belugas, I think someone already suggested that :(
18:21:34  <planetmaker> that's utter rubbish. In my very non-subjective view :P
18:22:15  <Belugas> the point is: this proposed cahnge is for someone who cares about THAT stuff.  someone comes in and suggest another info that HE finds crucial
18:22:20  <Belugas> and here we go again...
18:22:25  <Belugas> christmas tree
18:22:30  <Belugas> peter1138, you are right :)
18:22:57  <peter1138> mouse wheel on the status bar or something silly, it was...
18:23:03  <planetmaker> Belugas: fair enough and surely true.
18:23:20  <peter1138> Bah, I need a better chair.
18:23:32  <SmatZ>
18:23:36  <planetmaker> The point is: what is "most wanted" :) and what destroys the look & feel.
18:23:48  <SmatZ> but buttons etc. at the toolbar have been suggested too
18:24:46  <planetmaker> Until I learnt the usage of ctrl in that window I found the buttons most annoying.
18:24:51  <planetmaker> After that I didn't care anymore.
18:24:55  <SmatZ> hehe
18:25:15  <Belugas> what is not acceptable is "I am using it, so it must be good for all"
18:25:55  <planetmaker> Belugas: that other people have a different conception of "I" - e.g. they might refer that to themselves and not me. :D
18:26:21  <Belugas> i'm not pointing at you, planetmaker
18:27:39  <planetmaker> then I save this sentence for the next time - or the last time ;)
18:28:39  <sulai> Belugas: and what if i am far more worried about my rating in regards of the town i am working on right now, shold i move the ratio in front gui too? <- yes
18:28:40  <planetmaker> But in order to get the hang of how correct a statement like "I like it - all like it" is, discussions about exactly a topic may be helpful :)
18:28:48  *** yorick is now known as Guest83
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18:29:15  <yorick> topic is incorrect, openttd.notice isn't for FS notices
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18:29:37  <Belugas> sulai this is self centered minding. not the way to go
18:29:50  <Belugas> and a change for a change is not really welcome either
18:31:27  <sulai> Belugas: sulai this is self centered minding. not the way to go <- we need feature voting....
18:31:41  <yorick> don't we have that already?
18:31:44  *** mode/#openttd [+b *!*Yorick@*] by peter1138
18:31:44  *** yorick was kicked from #openttd by peter1138 [Oh go away]
18:31:54  *** Guest83 was kicked from #openttd by peter1138 [Guest83]
18:32:04  <sulai> yorick: where?
18:32:10  <Belugas> sulai, i'm sorry but it's not our way to go
18:32:17  <frosch123> the "votes" on flyspray are for rejecting patches :p
18:32:28  <SmatZ> :-D @ frosch123
18:32:30  <planetmaker> :P
18:32:43  <SmatZ> that would stop people from voting for their own requests though ;)
18:33:00  <SmatZ> but they could put negative votes to all other tasks...
18:33:07  <frosch123> funnily most of the new patches have exactly one vote, you might guess from whom :)
18:33:25  <planetmaker> better: 1€ / vote as donation to OpenTTD :)
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18:34:17  <planetmaker> buying votes might be anything but democratic, but that's besides the point :)
18:36:30  <sulai> I like this voting thing ;)
18:37:44  <TrueBrain> planetmaker: then make a 'bounty' page for OpenTTD :p
18:37:45  <TrueBrain> lol
18:38:12  <planetmaker> :)
18:39:09  <planetmaker> buy votes at a discount: pay 10€ and get 11 votes :P
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18:41:37  <peter1138> This is not a democracy :D
18:41:45  <peter1138> I AM YOUR OVERLORD
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18:42:29  <planetmaker> there you go. :D
18:46:04  <Bjarni> democracy sucks
18:46:15  <Bjarni> we just use it due to lack of a better system
18:46:36  <Belugas> we do?
18:46:40  <Belugas> never realized that...
18:46:57  <Bjarni> Plato wrote that
18:47:21  * FauxFaux kisses peter1138's feet.
18:47:50  <TrueBrain> peter1138: somehow I get this nasty idea to type: @kick peter1138 :p
18:47:52  <TrueBrain> dunno why ... ;)
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18:52:18  <planetmaker> :P
18:52:44  <planetmaker> rise and fall of nations^Woverlords? written by Truebrain?
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18:53:01  <hylje> spawn more overlords
18:53:39  <Eddi|zuHause> and when you run out of mana/gold/whatever?
18:53:39  *** Bjarni [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
18:53:53  <hylje> we require more vespene gas
18:55:33  <SmatZ> Woverlords?
18:55:44  <SmatZ> Not enough minerals.
18:56:07  <SmatZ> yay starcraft :)
18:56:53  * Belugas remembers a certain jezz who decided to do a branch/fork run by community
18:57:08  <Belugas> it never did worked even a single week
18:57:34  <planetmaker> :) Easily imaginable
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19:19:47  * SmatZ is on a Commit spree!
19:20:03  * Eddi|zuHause does not see any commits
19:20:11  <Belugas> ZOMG!!!  a user's work been commited and no voting has been performed!!!
19:21:08  <SmatZ> indeed (!!111oneoneeleven)
19:21:10  <SmatZ> :-P
19:21:16  <peter1138> eleventyone
19:21:19  <peter1138> Get it right.
19:21:21  <SmatZ> :-)
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19:37:29  <planetmaker> you picked up the ultimate coding gun and a pack of code lines
19:37:32  <planetmaker> :P
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19:38:10  <SmatZ> :-D
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19:38:32  <lilman424> How feasible would it be to make cargo selectable by station?
19:38:38  <lilman424> like, instead of having grain appear when a train with grain cars, be able to say "hey, i want grain to appear at this station now"?
19:41:29  <Belugas> yuo just have to move the farm near the other station
19:41:57  <Belugas> it is what's nearby the station that decides what should be picked up
19:42:27  <peter1138> Move the farm? :D
19:42:51  <Belugas> ;)
19:47:41  <lilman424> no, i mean....
19:48:23  <lilman424> I build a station near a farm and there's a check list or something on the station GUI so it can start accepting grain before any vehicles arrive
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19:49:05  <Eddi|zuHause> you can send a grain train before you finish building the line ;)
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19:49:43  <lilman424> that's not the point <_<
19:49:43  <Eddi|zuHause> but indeed, a checklist might be useful
19:49:46  <lilman424> :P
19:50:00  <Eddi|zuHause> especially about "i don't want to transport this cargo anymore"
19:50:02  <lilman424> yeah
19:50:57  <Eddi|zuHause> also a possibility would be "i don't want to deliver cargo here" [in case an unexpected industry appears near the station]
19:51:40  *** |Jeroen| [] has quit [Quit: oO]
19:52:13  <Belugas> there's still the option (under stations) "Deliver Cargo to a station only when there is a demand" .  put it off, it might getting close to your request
19:52:16  <Belugas> otherwise...
19:52:18  <Belugas> pffff...
19:52:43  * Belugas does not want to do that, too buzy elsewhere
19:53:02  <SmatZ> there have been several tries to code that, but everything ended in the "I have an idea" stage :)
19:53:04  <Belugas> and i guess it would ruin a bit game play, would'nt it?
19:53:12  <SmatZ> last time I remember frosch123 or I wanted to code that
19:53:18  <SmatZ> it whould be fairly simple
19:53:20  <Belugas> you did?
19:53:23  <Belugas> ho boy...
19:53:51  <SmatZ> except... people could cheat by removing cargo acceptance when there is no train to increase station rating and so
19:53:58  <SmatZ> so some kind of timeout would be needed
19:54:05  <SmatZ> also that GUI part isn't fun to code
19:54:18  <SmatZ> and Belugas doesn't like Ctrl+click :)
19:55:56  <Belugas> ctrl-click needs to be tamed and kept in a normal ratio and meaning
19:56:15  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd just have suggested: ctrl+click on the cargo in the provides/accepts list ;)
19:56:29  <Belugas> it should not be a way to add a new functiaonlity without any kind ofconnect with the normal click
19:56:30  * peter1138 considers an early night.
19:56:32  <peter1138> Also...
19:56:36  <SmatZ> nn peter1138
19:56:37  <peter1138> 98GB!
19:56:42  <Belugas> :)
19:56:46  <SmatZ> peter1138: what are those numbers?
19:56:49  <Belugas> sleep nice
19:56:51  <Eddi|zuHause> what's the target anyway?
19:56:53  <peter1138> Aw crap, now the farms are closing :(
19:56:58  <Eddi|zuHause> 140GB?
19:57:00  <Belugas> move them!
19:57:02  <peter1138> SmatZ, what 1138? ;)
19:57:05  <peter1138> Haha
19:57:16  <peter1138> SmatZ, I'm copying data of a broken disk, slowly...
19:57:17  <SmatZ> hehe :)
19:57:29  <SmatZ> ahh :) very slowly I see :)
19:57:31  <peter1138> Target is 120GB, although that's drive manufacturer GBs...
19:57:49  <peter1138> Copying it byte by byte, it seems :p
19:57:51  <ln-> has peter1138 subscribed to a HD porn site, or what are those GBs?
19:57:58  <peter1138> Accessing it normally causes the drive to disappear.
19:57:58  <SmatZ> :-)
19:58:16  <SmatZ> interesting
19:58:20  <SmatZ> at least it works :)
19:59:10  <peter1138> For now...
19:59:39  <peter1138> Had to force the BIOS to ignore the drive, booted a Debian installer CD, and it managed to pick the drive up.
19:59:51  <peter1138> So it's now using dd and nc to copy it.
20:00:18  <SmatZ> hmm maybe I could try it too, I have one drive that fails a lot...
20:00:35  <Wolf01> 'night
20:00:46  <SmatZ> nn
20:00:47  *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
20:02:24  <peter1138> This map is tricky :o
20:12:08  <Belugas> which one? the map to your bed ?
20:12:10  * Belugas hides
20:14:51  *** Sacro_ [~ben@adsl-87-102-39-137.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
20:16:42  *** Sacro [~ben@adsl-87-102-39-137.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:16:43  <peter1138> Yeah :o
20:16:45  *** Sacro_ is now known as Sacro
20:17:49  <frosch123> <- someone must be colorblind o_O
20:17:54  <frosch123> at least I am now
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20:18:33  <SmatZ> helb!
20:19:08  <SmatZ> frosch123: what's bad about it?
20:19:30  <Belugas> it's...  blue with a violent aqua tone!
20:19:36  <frosch123> is the background not cyan for you
20:19:41  <frosch123> blue on cyan...
20:20:03  <SmatZ> I don't know, I am colourblind :-P
20:20:13  <SmatZ> fine for me
20:20:38  <Belugas> seriously?
20:20:42  <peter1138> It's readable, just ugly.
20:20:54  <peter1138> Also... COMIC SANS :o
20:20:59  <SmatZ> Belugas: yes, a bit... 10% of male population is :)
20:21:50  * Belugas is happy not to be on that 10%
20:22:22  <SmatZ> :)
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20:23:01  <SmatZ> it has disadvantages, like it is almost impossible to find the iron ore in the minimap ;)
20:26:30  <peter1138> Well, that's true for everyone...
20:27:02  <SmatZ> :)
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20:28:12  * Belugas sends a couple of metal detectors to SmatZ and peter1138
20:28:20  <SmatZ> :-)
20:31:52  *** mortal` [] has quit [Quit: [FATAL] Client error: Memory leak - More RAM needed. More! More! More!]
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20:52:58  <Eddi|zuHause> mental detectors?
20:54:06  <Belugas> no, metal.  remember, we're no psychics!
20:55:25  <Eddi|zuHause> no, we're no support channel :p
21:02:31  <Eddi|zuHause> i love torrents. they say they are done in two hours, and when you look at them two hours later, they take 1h 30m to finish
21:04:15  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: try installing the august 2007 direct x sdk and you'll go crazy
21:04:21  <ln-> is it dexter already?
21:05:00  <Eddi|zuHause> ln-: no, dexter starts on the 28th
21:08:40  * Belugas goes home
21:08:44  <Belugas> night all
21:09:12  <ln-> has Belugas moved to europe lately
21:09:53  <ln-> his night is at night now.
21:12:11  <Eddi|zuHause> "i go home" usually means he's still at work
21:13:40  <ln-> many people are at work at night
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21:14:59  <Eddi|zuHause> not those who work strictly from 9 to 5
21:17:52  <ln-> not as often, no
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21:25:58  *** Yeggstry is now known as Yeggzzz
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21:34:27  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: I use 'usenet', that gives me a reliable number (like, on average: 4 minutes)
21:47:45  <TrueBrain> under the category: did you know, did you know that we made the first successful OSX binary on the compile-farm with 10.3.9? And that it was said to be impossible back then? :)
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21:59:14  <Eddi|zuHause> man and woman in the mall:
21:59:16  <Eddi|zuHause> man: darling, if you had no feet, would you then buy shoes?
21:59:17  <Eddi|zuHause> woman: of course not
21:59:19  <Eddi|zuHause> man: so, please, put that expensive bra back
21:59:37  <TrueBrain> auch
22:06:22  <welshdragon> Eddi|zuHause, that was poor
22:06:47  <Eddi|zuHause> it was on TV here about an hour ago ;)
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23:05:18  <ln-> any minute now...
23:11:05  *** Nite_Owl [] has quit [Quit: Read You Soon]
23:13:03  <TrueBrain> any Mac OS X 10.4 Intel awake?
23:13:05  *** Indoril [] has quit []
23:13:29  <ln-> Bjarni is one, isn't he?
23:14:04  <Bjarni> not really
23:14:12  <Bjarni> as I upgraded to 10.5
23:14:15  <ln-> except TB has me on ignore.
23:14:18  <ln-> oh
23:14:29  <TrueBrain> Bjarni: that we already knew ...
23:14:30  <TrueBrain> dah
23:14:36  <Bjarni> and my 10.4 setup didn't survive being moved to another disk for some reason
23:15:09  <TrueBrain> (I am talking to Bjarni in an other channel about OS X and testing some binaries .. and I already asked him if he had 10.4, he said no .. and still for some reason he needs to say that here again, instead of answering my other questions :p
23:15:46  <ln-> qed
23:16:54  <ln-> Bjarni: are you 10.5 times happier with it than 10.4?
23:17:12  <Bjarni> good question
23:17:48  <Bjarni> I like time machine and tabs in terminal
23:18:12  <TrueBrain> but okay, nobody to test this on then ..
23:18:34  <Eddi|zuHause> how come i get the feeling that this is an instance of :p
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23:28:41  *** CIA-2 [~CIA@] has joined #openttd
23:28:57  <ln-> @seen cia*
23:28:57  <DorpsGek> ln-: cia* could be CIA-2 (12 hours, 56 minutes, and 12 seconds ago), CIA-1 (1 day, 9 hours, 55 minutes, and 45 seconds ago), CIA-5 (2 weeks, 6 days, 1 hour, 58 minutes, and 25 seconds ago), CIA-4 (5 weeks, 3 days, 4 hours, 40 minutes, and 26 seconds ago), CIA-9 (5 weeks, 3 days, 12 hours, 23 minutes, and 57 seconds ago), CIA-3 (7 weeks, 4 days, 6 hours, 31 minutes, and 14 seconds ago), or CIA-6 (11 weeks, 5 days, 5 (1 more message)
23:29:55  <ln-> @more
23:29:56  <DorpsGek> ln-: hours, 44 minutes, and 44 seconds ago)
23:29:56  <Eddi|zuHause> @more ln-
23:29:57  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: Error: That's all, there is no more.
23:30:23  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm too slow for this world...
23:30:31  <ln-> the remaining part was even slightly longer than the string "(1 more message)"
23:30:47  * TrueBrain gives Eddi|zuHause a hug
23:31:22  <Bjarni> @less
23:31:37  <Bjarni> @sleep
23:33:02  *** Bjarni [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
23:34:32  <Belugas> @less ln-
23:34:34  <Belugas> mmh...
23:34:38  <Belugas> no effect
23:34:39  <Eddi|zuHause> ln--?
23:34:40  <Belugas> booooo
23:34:50  <Belugas> @less ln--
23:34:54  <Belugas> nope...
23:34:56  <Belugas> sadly
23:34:58  <Eddi|zuHause> :p
23:35:16  <TrueBrain> Belugas: try @kick ln-
23:35:23  <Belugas> naaaa...
23:35:36  <Belugas> cannot kick someone who is already on ignore :P
23:35:43  <Belugas> it would be pointless
23:35:55  <TrueBrain> true, as we won't see that ..
23:36:01  <Belugas> ^_^
23:36:10  <Belugas> life is sweet, isn't it ;)
23:36:14  <TrueBrain> yeah :)
23:36:15  <Chrill> nop
23:36:29  <Belugas> ho?
23:36:31  <Belugas> no operation?
23:36:31  <TrueBrain> like managing to make OSX 10.5 Intel binaries, just to find out the stage 1 gcc contains a bug :p
23:36:46  <ln-> who says "nop", honestly
23:36:55  <Chrill> Chrill does, the faggot
23:39:54  *** Wezz6400 [] has quit [Quit: I'm not too old for this shit, but I don't need it either]
23:39:59  <Belugas> Chrill makes little sens, unless there is a parasit in the transmission
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23:41:29  <penfold> what an odd person
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23:51:46  <Eddi|zuHause> i wonder whether, in ten years, we will be speaking of the desaster of CERN-obyl
23:52:11  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: really, what are you getting those from? :p
23:52:23  <SmatZ> hehe
23:52:35  *** CIA-2 [~CIA@] has quit []
23:54:07  <ln-> since ops have ignored me, i might as well paste a youtube link to the large hadron rap;

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