Log for #openttd on 21st September 2008:
Times are UTC Toggle Colours
00:00:11  <Bjarni> just like Hong Kong uses 1432 mm for some reason
00:00:21  <Bjarni> I think all their trains uses 1435 mm though
00:00:51  <Bjarni> I never figured out why they use a gauge that's 3 mm smaller than the standard
00:00:56  *** NukeBuster [~NukeBuste@] has quit [Quit:]
00:01:05  <ln-> 1524 mm is exactly 60 inch.
00:02:36  <Bjarni> <-- not deciding on a gauge can cause problems
00:11:47  <Eddi|zuHause> well, germany also has a lot of different gauges
00:12:21  <Eddi|zuHause> but mostly those are isolated narrow gauge systems
00:12:28  <Eddi|zuHause> especially trams
00:14:02  <Bjarni> trams benefit from narrow gauge because the wider the gauge the wider the curves has to be
00:14:28  <Bjarni> but wide gauge gives increased stability, which is useful at high speed
00:14:48  <Bjarni> so it's a known tradeoff and it's a damn expensive one to alter
00:15:25  *** roboboy [] has joined #openttd
00:16:16  <Eddi|zuHause> and then there are at least as many systems of power supply ;)
00:17:25  <Eddi|zuHause> our tram has 1000mm, and 600V DC, i think
00:17:39  <Bjarni> EU wants to make 25 kV, 50 Hz a standard in all countries
00:17:49  <Bjarni> it's however unsuitable for trams
00:18:01  <Bjarni> for safety reasons
00:18:36  <Eddi|zuHause> i have my doubts that such an attempt of overregulation will work out...
00:19:01  <Bjarni> NL is attempting to adapt
00:19:15  <Bjarni> but they need to do something anyway since they use 1500 V DC
00:19:33  <Bjarni> which means the freight trains draws 4 kA from the catenary
00:20:09  <Eddi|zuHause> i mean it's not only that a big country like germany would have to change their whole infrastructure
00:20:42  <Eddi|zuHause> there are also suburban railways that use DC via 3rd rail and stuff
00:21:15  <Eddi|zuHause> or subways, which are generally unsuited for catenary
00:21:21  <Bjarni> the suburban lines in Copenhagen use 1500 V DC
00:21:30  <Bjarni> they just replaced all the trains
00:22:07  <Bjarni> but decided not to switch to 25 kV even though several people though it should be done because it was a "now or never" situation
00:22:17  <Bjarni> and 25 kV AC is far better
00:23:57  <ln-> what's wrong with 25 kV for trams?
00:24:20  <Bjarni> lorries hitting the catenary and such
00:24:46  <Bjarni> the safety distance is actually 1,75 meters for ungrounded stuff
00:25:19  <Bjarni> also in case it falls down, then you are screwed with this voltage on the street
00:25:31  <ln-> 1500 V is a-ok?
00:26:15  <Bjarni> at least it will not risk frying people up to 5 meters away from the place where it falls down
00:27:00  *** Yeggstry [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
00:27:50  <ln-> k
00:27:55  <Eddi|zuHause> if the security measures are any kind of good, the circuit breaker should kick in before the wire touches the ground
00:28:17  *** reldred|gone is now known as reldred
00:28:26  <ln-> reldred: no away nicks
00:28:32  <Bjarni> are you willing to guarantee that it will work?
00:28:41  <Eddi|zuHause> no
00:28:44  <Bjarni> and can you proof that it will not kill anybody?
00:29:38  <Eddi|zuHause> i also think it isn't worth switching power supply just for the sake of switching power supply
00:29:39  <ln-> *prove
00:30:23  <Bjarni> I don't think changing the voltage for trams will affect international railroad operations
00:31:00  <Eddi|zuHause> unless you throw out all existing equipment at the same time, you'd have a very long transition period where you can only buy dual voltage vehicles
00:31:19  <Bjarni> the idea is that say you send a freight train from Denmark to NL then it has to be diesel/have a locomotive that can deal with 1,5,15k and 25k voltage or switch locomotive
00:32:04  <Bjarni> <Eddi|zuHause> unless you throw out all existing equipment at the same time, you'd have a very long transition period where you can only buy dual voltage vehicles <-- USA did the latter and it worked out just fine
00:32:15  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think freight trains have a real issue there, they have lots of standing time anyway
00:32:36  <Bjarni> that's another issue that needs solving
00:32:53  <Eddi|zuHause> USA have a totally underdeveloped electric network anyway
00:32:58  *** Eddi|zuHause [] has quit []
00:33:10  <Bjarni> Danish TV once put a GPS transmitter in a container, put it on a freight car and sent it to Italy. It ended up having an average speed of 16 km/h
00:33:26  *** Eddi|zuHause [] has joined #openttd
00:33:57  <Bjarni> <Eddi|zuHause> USA have a totally underdeveloped electric network anyway <-- not in the north east. They switched power system in the Pennsylvania area where they actually use electric trains on a rather large scale
00:35:03  *** [demi]Xerres [] has joined #openttd
00:35:04  *** Xerres [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
00:35:12  <reldred> ln-: Thankyou for your suggestion, it has been taken on board, and promptly dismissed. I'm not changing a standing IRC configuration that I've had for years, for one person in one channel who appears to be backseat moderating. :).
00:36:05  <Bjarni> reldred: will it be any better if I tell you it's channel rules?
00:36:19  <Eddi|zuHause> reldred: for the sake of argument, you should have said that in a non-english language :p
00:36:34  <reldred> Bjarni: From you it would, you've got the almighty before your name.
00:36:53  <reldred> Damnit, silly keyboard
00:36:59  <reldred> *almighty @ before your name
00:37:01  <Bjarni> ok, then I say it... it's channel rules
00:37:11  <reldred> Gotcha. Later folks.
00:37:15  *** reldred [] has left #openttd []
00:37:15  <Bjarni> hmm
00:37:29  <Bjarni> where is Sao Tome and Principe?
00:37:43  <Eddi|zuHause> before the coast of africa
00:37:56  <Eddi|zuHause> near the equator, i think
00:37:57  <ln-> probably some small island(s) that earn money by selling domain names.
00:38:22  <Bjarni> oh those
00:38:38  *** Frostregen [] has joined #openttd
00:44:55  <ln-> niue (.nu) is basically in sweden.
00:45:54  <Bjarni> Niue (pronounced /niːˈʔuːeɪ/, /ˈnjuːeɪ/ in English) is an island nation located in the South Pacific Ocean. <-- from wikipedia
00:46:09  <Bjarni>
00:46:33  <Bjarni> <-- or maybe you prefer this one ;)
00:47:02  <murray>
00:48:22  <Bjarni> very funny :)
00:48:58  <Bjarni> I just clicked on a lot of different languages to tell differences
00:49:13  <Bjarni> and noticed some interesting facts
00:49:21  <Bjarni> population is not the same on all pages
00:49:47  <Bjarni> the landsize is 260km²
00:50:21  <Bjarni> yet the number of people for each km² is unknown (with the population known) o_O
00:52:16  <Bjarni> the correct density is 8,29 people/km² (this is the high number of population)
00:52:30  <Bjarni> I think they have room for more people
00:53:27  <ln-> except it doesn't say how many km² is habitable.
00:53:44  <Bjarni> good point
00:55:00  <ln-> and with an island that is barely 10 km wide, you gotta think where to dump the garbage produced by more people.  (well there's a lot of ocean in every direction.)
00:55:10  <Bjarni> the population density for NL (for comparison) is 393/km²
00:56:21  *** Gekz [] has quit [Quit: leaving]
00:56:51  <ln-> no wonder TB and DV get so easily pissed off.
00:57:40  <Bjarni> 0.027/km² <-- looks like Greenland can house a whole lot more people
00:57:44  <Bjarni> (or maybe not)
00:58:04  <Bjarni>
01:00:05  <Bjarni> Taiwan (Republic of China) <-- isn't that kind of political to write it like that?
01:01:07  <Bjarni> China got it from Japan after WW2 and they declared independent from China after 4 years
01:01:47  <ln-> China doesn't recognize their independence.
01:01:54  *** Gekz [] has joined #openttd
01:02:07  *** Gekz [] has left #openttd []
01:02:13  *** Gekz [] has joined #openttd
01:02:16  <Bjarni> I know
01:02:34  <Bjarni> but China claims to own Nepal and Japan as well
01:03:04  <ln-> I doubt that.
01:03:06  <Bjarni> Chinese children are taught in school that Japan is a rebellious Chinese province
01:03:29  <ln-> Do you have a reference?
01:03:38  <Bjarni> not offhand
01:03:47  <Bjarni> I read it like a year or two ago
01:05:07  <Bjarni> however Japan has been under their own government in all of the recorded history (which is quite a long time in Asia) except when USA took control right after WW2
01:05:43  <Bjarni> the history is full of attempts of Asian mainland attacking Japan but it never worked out
01:07:01  <ln-> like denmark
01:07:03  <Bjarni> the word kamikaze was first used about such an attack. The Mongols sailed towards Japan with their army and kamikaze (godly wind) appeared and sank all the ships
01:07:40  <Bjarni> Japan believed that the typhoon was sent by a god to protect Japan
01:10:33  <ln-> I've been reading a book that says China was the most advanced country with sea exploration back in the... 1400's or so.
01:11:05  <Bjarni> that's not unlikely
01:11:36  <ln-> had ships that were a lot bigger than e.g. Santa Maria, Nina, and Pinta were, and had a compass.
01:11:36  <Bjarni> they were really advanced compared to the rest of the world for a really long time
01:12:07  <Bjarni> they started drilling for oil 1700 years ago (or something like that). They used it for oil lamps
01:16:06  <ln-> i wonder what would have happened if they had found america first
01:20:18  <Bjarni> the same as happened when the Vikings found America
01:20:39  <Bjarni> nothing that matters today
01:22:35  <Bjarni> when the Europeans explored what would later be Canada they found an Indian tribe of white people, who didn't speak the same language as the other tribes in the area and they built houses like Scandinavians used to built them (read: totally different from all other tribes)
01:23:32  <ln-> this speculation is from the book mentioned above; what if the chinese had introduced gunpowder to indians before europeans arrived?
01:23:34  <Bjarni> they were extinct by diseases bought by the Europeans before DNA tests were invented though so we can only guess
01:23:41  *** grumbel [] has quit [Quit: Client exiting]
01:24:09  <Bjarni> <ln-> this speculation is from the book mentioned above; what if the chinese had introduced gunpowder to indians before europeans arrived? <-- that would have been interesting
01:24:52  <Bjarni> or to keep it simple: Chu-ko-nu
01:24:59  <Bjarni> which is a repeating crossbow
01:25:06  <Bjarni> it can fire 10 bolts in 15 sec
01:25:15  <Bjarni> China had that one for 2000 years
01:25:31  <Bjarni> maybe 2500 years
01:25:54  <Bjarni> it's unknown who invented it and when... we only know the era where it showed up
01:27:04  <Bjarni> if the Indians have had that one when they started fighting the Europeans, then the Europeans would have been slaughtered
01:27:42  <Bjarni> maybe it wasn't as powerful as the gun, but with that rate of firing...
01:28:37  <Bjarni> but.... China would have found California while Columbus found the West Indian isles
01:29:13  <Bjarni> it's likely that the Chinese wouldn't have seen much east of the Rocky Mountains before the Europeans arrived
01:31:19  <Bjarni> but it just tells me that when something great is being discovered, it's because it's the natural step from what the world had at that time
01:31:42  <Bjarni> technology had reached a state where ocean travelling was possible
01:31:54  <Bjarni> if Columbus had sunk, then somebody else would have tried
01:34:02  <ln-> what if the indians had found europe...
01:35:08  <Bjarni> then they would have been captured on arrival
01:35:44  *** Fuco [~dota.keys@] has quit [Quit: Quit]
01:35:45  <ln-> probably
01:35:58  <Bjarni> considering how people in power in the middle age treated their own and enemy people, then they wouldn't have been nice to Indians
01:36:42  <Bjarni> this is why the settlers was attacked by Indians. Indians ended up being treated like people in Europe was treated
01:37:15  <Bjarni> the Indians didn't accept it and took up arms while normal people in Europe couldn't do anything about it
01:39:27  <Bjarni> btw speaking of first encounters. When Livingstone sailed on the Nile, he had problems finding the local population because the boats were spotted and the locals thought "there is a group of slavers"
01:39:37  <Bjarni> "and they have captured a group of white people"
01:40:01  <Bjarni> meaning their hired help (local black people) were presumed to be slavers
01:40:31  <Bjarni> naturally people who saw this kept far away to avoid capture
01:42:23  <ln-> slavery... good old times
01:44:45  *** Sacro_ [~Ben@adsl-87-102-39-137.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
01:46:40  *** teggigi [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
01:51:34  *** Sacro [~Ben@adsl-87-102-39-137.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
01:52:03  <ln-> i guess this short period of human rights and democracy will eventually end.
01:54:09  *** Frostregen [] has quit [Quit: und weg]
01:59:48  <Bjarni> it's ending right now
02:00:47  <Bjarni> because the media and judges talks about human rights for people arrested for terrorism rather than what they have done/planned to do
02:01:03  <Bjarni> that's just one example
02:01:58  <Bjarni> but I'm pretty sure this era will be over in say 50 years
02:03:24  <Bjarni> the only way to protect it is actually to make the safety of the state more important than the human rights of whoever threatens the state
02:04:07  <Bjarni> the same goes for safety of the population
02:05:22  <Bjarni> like the poisoned milk case in China. They can charge the people behind it with a death sentence for poisoning food while here we will give them some years of prison if we can prove that they were aware that it would kill people
02:07:11  <Bjarni> anyway time for bed
02:07:12  *** Bjarni [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
02:07:15  *** RPGprayer [] has joined #openttd
02:07:27  <RPGprayer> Morning
02:08:12  <ln-> not
02:08:22  <RPGprayer> 4 in the morning here :P
02:08:39  <ln-> 5 in the night here
02:08:44  <RPGprayer> haha
02:11:54  <RPGprayer> I've got a question: I haven't really fiddled around anything with applying patches on OTTD and such, but is it possible to use more than one patch and compile? like if i want daylength patch, rentable railway tracks, etc.?
02:12:03  *** welshdragon [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
02:12:49  <ln-> it is possible, BUT
02:13:34  <ln-> if those patches happen to patch the same areas of same files, then they'll conflict with each other and need to be applied manually (if possible).
02:13:46  <RPGprayer> ah, yes
02:14:39  <RPGprayer> that's annoying, since i'll basically have something i'd like to use missing :)
03:00:45  *** TinoM| [] has joined #openttd
03:00:45  *** elmex [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
03:02:48  *** elmex [] has joined #openttd
03:07:52  *** TinoM [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
03:23:46  *** glx [] has quit [Quit: bye]
04:21:34  *** Sacro [~Ben@adsl-87-102-39-137.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
04:28:07  *** Sacro_ [~Ben@adsl-87-102-39-137.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
04:35:07  *** roboboy [] has quit [Quit: ajax IRC Client]
04:41:55  *** letto [~letto@] has joined #openttd
05:23:36  *** Sacro [~Ben@adsl-87-102-39-137.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
05:42:13  *** Doorslammer [] has joined #openttd
05:56:25  *** Singaporekid [] has joined #openttd
06:45:17  *** mikl [] has joined #openttd
07:04:02  *** jpm [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
07:04:04  *** jpm [] has joined #openttd
07:08:53  *** Alberth [] has joined #openttd
07:20:15  *** TinoM| [] has quit [Quit: Verlassend]
07:20:34  *** TinoM [] has joined #openttd
08:13:47  *** Tekky [] has joined #openttd
08:21:00  *** mikl [] has quit [Quit: Leaving...]
08:25:35  *** mikl [] has joined #openttd
08:28:11  *** yorick [] has joined #openttd
08:33:04  <yorick> the console needs linebreaks
08:37:38  *** Celestar [] has joined #openttd
08:37:41  *** mode/#openttd [+o Celestar] by ChanServ
08:37:45  <Celestar> morning
08:37:52  <yorick> morning
08:40:14  *** [com]buster [] has joined #openttd
08:40:41  <Tekky> hi :)
08:40:44  *** roboboy [] has joined #openttd
08:40:48  <Eddi|zuHause> the console needs a lot of things..
08:41:13  <yorick> the console needs python!
08:41:26  *** frosch123 [] has joined #openttd
08:41:34  <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: like what?
08:42:13  <Eddi|zuHause> 10:33] <yorick> the console needs linebreaks
08:42:15  <Tekky> signals need python, too :) I want programmable signals :)
08:42:29  <Celestar> Rubidium: I've tried moving things around so that I don't need to include <map> in cargopacket.h but it doesn't change the compile time. This is basically due to the fact that we already have <list> included in cargopacket.h, and there's no way around that.
08:42:34  <Celestar> Tekky: I don't agree :P
08:42:36  <yorick> Tekky: that's harder than the console
08:42:45  <yorick> I do
08:42:56  <Celestar> what does one need programmable signals for?
08:43:09  <Tekky> priority lines, for example.
08:43:10  <yorick> for having signals that are programmable
08:43:35  <Tekky> in order to give a certain line priority over another line.
08:43:43  <Eddi|zuHause> waypoints on tile edges, custom pathfinder penalties based on orders and waypoints
08:43:55  <Eddi|zuHause> programmable signals are useless
08:44:09  <Tekky> however, programmable signals are more meaningful with non-YAPP signals.
08:45:16  <Tekky> with YAPP, the signal state (whether it is green or red) is irrelevant. So programmable YAPP signals would have to work with reservation states as variables instead of signal states.
08:45:26  <Tekky> which would be harder to implement.
08:45:33  *** Aylomen [] has joined #openttd
08:46:54  <Celestar> first thing we need imho is a proper reservation of the braking distance.
08:47:11  <Celestar> so that the train would NEVER come to an abrupt halt.
08:47:20  <Celestar> _never_
08:47:26  <yorick> Celestar: I recommend you to put "Celestar" into your signature so you don't have to put it under each of your posts manually ;)
08:47:56  <Celestar> yorick: heh. It's just a habit :P
08:48:26  <yorick> sometimes your name is longer than the post itself
08:48:32  <Celestar> yeah
08:48:33  <Celestar> :P
08:49:03  <Eddi|zuHause> gnah, i need to pay better attention what the nick actually is, not just its colour... else i start attributing sentences to wrong persons...
08:49:14  <Tekky> currently, the only way to implement priority lines is this way, which is an ugly hack:
08:49:31  * Celestar wonders why priority lines are needed.
08:50:02  <Celestar> if the line is really busy, I just separate: long distance pax trains, regional pax trains, freight trains.
08:50:08  <Celestar> and then use waypoints
08:50:44  <Tekky> Celestar: Yes, I agree that a train should always reserve inside its braking distance.
08:51:15  <Tekky> Celestar: I think that is also the way trains behave in locomotion.
08:51:24  <Eddi|zuHause> enforcing braking distance will at least all the 2-tile-signal layouts :p
08:51:33  <Eddi|zuHause> *break
08:51:46  <Tekky> yep, that's certainly a good thing :)
08:51:59  <Tekky> but I don't understand why it should break them?
08:52:32  <Eddi|zuHause> well, at least render them useless
08:53:54  <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: they would still work, but trains could no longer get closer than braking distance + skid distance + safety distance :-)
08:54:11  <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: then again, from 1980 on, we could have signal-less trunk routes like IRL (=
08:54:26  <Eddi|zuHause> well, if you siply put signals that close, it would enforce a slow maximum speed on the line
08:54:43  <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: reservation would span multiple signals then (=
08:54:53  <Alberth> Yellow signals!
08:55:22  <Celestar> Alberth: they would be possible then as well
08:55:29  <Eddi|zuHause> i tried to make yapp-combo signals, but i got in trouble with adding the third signal state
08:55:50  <Celestar> green = can pass this and next signal, yellow = can pass this signal but not next, red = cannot pass this signal.
08:56:03  <Eddi|zuHause> exactly
08:56:26  <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: like Ks ;)
08:56:47  <Tekky> I think signals should show yellow only for graphical feedback, but a yellow signal should have no effect on gameplay. I have stated my reasons for this in this forum post:
08:56:54  <Eddi|zuHause> i could either make signals red/green (normal) or i could make them yellow/green (advance), but not red/yellow/green (combo)
08:57:22  <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: apparently, Erfurt-Leipzig will be Germany's first track without signals (=
08:58:42  <Eddi|zuHause> Tekky: well, the main advantage of yellow signals is that fast trains (almost) automatically adjust to the slower speed of the train ahead, and don't come to a full stop at every signal
08:59:01  <Eddi|zuHause> which actually increases the capacity of a mixed line
08:59:17  <Celestar> Tekky: I'm not suggesting adding an advance-signal-type. I suggest making the normal signals real combo signals (normal + advance). Like they are these days.
08:59:37  *** mikl [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
08:59:58  <Eddi|zuHause> well, there might be situations where you do NOT want combo signals
09:00:11  <Eddi|zuHause> like at an entrance to a single track section
09:00:31  <Celestar> yeah, but we can think about those later (=
09:00:32  <Tekky> Celestar: Are you proposing that the trains actually react to yellow signals or that they are merely graphical feedback for the player, showing that the train will pass the signal with reduced speed? The latter is the behavior of Locomotion.
09:00:54  <Celestar> Tekky: I rather suggest the Lomo way.
09:01:09  <Celestar> Tekky: because signalling is basically the only thing that Lomo got right :-P
09:01:14  <Tekky> hehe
09:01:19  <Eddi|zuHause> well, "reduce speed" IS an effect on gameplay
09:01:51  <Tekky> yes, but this speed reduction is caused by the red signal and NOT by the yellow signal in Locomotion. The yellow signal is only graphical feedback for the player.
09:02:18  <Tekky> i.e. it is caused by approaching a red signal and NOT by passing a yellow signal.
09:02:47  <Eddi|zuHause> i can't imagine how you would properly enforce that
09:02:58  <Tekky> the same way as in Locomotion :)
09:04:02  <Tekky> I think Locomotion shows signals as yellow also if the train is about to brake for the next red signal, even if the train does not go with reduced speed when approaching the signal.
09:04:22  <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: the question is, if yellow signals slow down the train, how can we set the speed limit?
09:04:47  <Eddi|zuHause> to phrase this clearly: you would a) need every train to keep track about how many tiles it has reserved ahead, b) try to reserve ahead when this number of tiles goes below x, c) check if there are any signals on this path
09:04:56  <Celestar> TrueBrain: could you please rerun the compile farm on cargodest, thanks.
09:05:18  <Tekky> the speed limit should always be according to the distance to the next red signal and be independent of whether a yellow signal is passed.
09:05:37  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't like this approach
09:05:41  <Celestar> heh. maybe we could just set the speed limit according to the distance between two signals (=
09:06:00  <Celestar> so that a train is able to stop between two signals P and Q.
09:06:23  <Eddi|zuHause> exactly. or it must be specifically ordered to reserve X signals ahead
09:06:43  <Celestar> I don't think it is feasible to have the train look ahead more than 2 signals.
09:07:12  <Eddi|zuHause> why? it's just running the PBS reservation routine several times...
09:07:31  <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: and slows things down?
09:07:54  <Eddi|zuHause> not anymore than now. because once the track is reserved, nothing has to be done
09:08:07  <Eddi|zuHause> and each time a signal is passed, another reservation round is done
09:08:09  <Tekky> Eddi: So you prefer to force the player to put a distant signal ("Vorsignal") in front of every red signal at braking distance? And if the player doesn't do that and has a long piece of track without signals, the train will be reduced to half speed on the entire piece of track?
09:08:12  <Eddi|zuHause> which is exactly the same work as now
09:08:31  <Celestar> we need to draw this up methinks
09:08:38  <Eddi|zuHause> Tekky: yes. exactly (possibly a difficulty setting)
09:09:40  <frosch123> You could also always reserve the track for two signals, so the first signal would behave as presignal
09:09:51  <Celestar> frosch123: not presignal. advance signal (=
09:10:07  <frosch123> yes, advance :)
09:10:20  <Celestar> let's abolish all non-YAPP signals and work with LZB/ETCS right away?
09:10:44  <frosch123> so when a train passes a signal it starts breaking so it could halt in front of the second signal, when passing the next signal it might accelerate again
09:10:51  <Tekky> Eddi: hmmmm, I'm afraid this will clutter the display too much, if you are forced to place double as many signals......
09:11:21  <Tekky> well, another question: Should several smaller trains be allowed to form a queue in the same signal block?
09:11:23  <Eddi|zuHause> i had this preliminary study about advance signals together with michi_cc:
09:11:48  <Eddi|zuHause> advance signals work (without realistic deceleration)
09:11:52  <Eddi|zuHause> but combo signals don't
09:11:58  <Eddi|zuHause> they need a third signal state
09:12:24  <Celestar> why have signals! :P
09:12:44  <Eddi|zuHause> Celestar: let trains pass through each other!
09:13:02  <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: no.
09:13:11  <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: use a modern system. ETCS (=
09:13:14  <Tekky> Celestar: Well, you still need a possibility to mark safe waiting locations. But this could be a property of the track, not of signals....
09:13:30  <Eddi|zuHause> well, they are still technically signals, only they are more advanced
09:13:45  <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: no. as I said. Nuremburg-Leipzig will not have signals.
09:13:52  <Eddi|zuHause> Tekky: signals are a property of the track
09:14:10  *** insulfrog [~trainslov@] has joined #openttd
09:14:30  <peter1138> Celestar, what do you mean by "Oops", regarding the savegame problem?
09:14:42  <Celestar> peter1138: I messed it up a little
09:14:48  <Celestar> peter1138: but I have repaired it meanwhile
09:14:54  <insulfrog> hi
09:14:57  <Celestar> \o insulfrog
09:15:14  <Celestar> hi peter1138 (=
09:15:27  <peter1138> Didn't I say it was messed up a week or so ago?
09:15:46  <Celestar> peter1138: yes. but then I went on a business trip and had no internet access
09:16:07  <Celestar> at least not in my off-hours
09:16:12  <Tekky> by the way, does Mercurial offer a possibility to extract only the latest revision instead of the entire repository, such as the SVN checkout command? The hg clone command copies the entire repository and not only the latest revision.
09:16:14  *** Volley [] has joined #openttd
09:16:37  <peter1138> date:        Sun Sep 07 08:48:19 2008 +0100
09:16:37  <peter1138> summary:     Fix savegame compatibility with trunk
09:16:38  <peter1138>  :o
09:16:56  * Celestar doesn't understand Deutsche Bahn
09:16:57  <peter1138> (But you didn't want it, so it's no "Oops" really, is it?)
09:17:46  <Celestar> peter1138: now that most of the testing in cargodest is done, I see no reason to be able to load older cargodest savegames. So now we're savegame-compatible with trunk.
09:18:47  <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: why does the DB build a track for 300km/h, install catenary for 330km/h only to use the track with 250km/h later on?
09:18:48  <Eddi|zuHause> Celestar: i assume you are not the only person with that problem
09:20:12  <Celestar> What's so difficult with just rating and using all the high-speed sections with 300km/h and finally provide customers with reasonable journey times :S
09:22:45  <Tekky> if you get rid of all signals, then you must be able to place 3 types of track:
09:22:47  <Tekky> 1. track that is safe for trains to wait on, if they are facing in one direction
09:22:48  <Tekky> 2. track that is safe for trains to wait on, if they are facing the other direction
09:22:50  <Tekky> 3. track that trains may not wait on, such as junctions
09:23:41  <Celestar> Tekky: I wasn't 100% serious about getting rid of ALL signals (=
09:23:45  <peter1138> Celestar, you missed the CONDNULL in vehicle.cpp
09:24:13  <Tekky> Celestar: Well, if you had been serious, it would have been an interesting suggestion :)
09:24:58  <Celestar> peter1138: what did I miss there? :o
09:26:17  <Celestar> Tekky: well what would be possible is this: Have the two YAPP signal types plus a "yapp block safe waiting point" signal (=
09:26:41  <Celestar> oh it should be 100, right?
09:27:13  <Tekky> Celestar: what do you mean with "block safe"?
09:27:29  <Celestar> Tekky: basically a signal that marks a safe waiting point.
09:27:39  <Celestar> then again, any signal does mark a save waiting point ..
09:27:51  <Tekky> Celestar: Ah, the "safe" refers to "waiting point" and not to "block" :)
09:27:55  <Celestar> yes
09:28:29  <Celestar> but what we could use is a one-way marker for tracks (=
09:29:17  *** |Jeroen| [] has joined #openttd
09:29:24  <Tekky> ah, yes.... I forgot about that :)
09:31:04  <Celestar> so we'd need two signal types: one that signals the entry into a YAPP block, and one that signals the entry into an LZB block.
09:31:48  <peter1138> 102 -> 100
09:32:04  <Tekky> however, defining whether a track is safe for waiting, instead of defining this property for signals, has the advantage that waiting locations could be only declared safe for trains up to a certain length. For example, a signal that is placed 8 tiles behind a junction is only safe for trains up to a length of 16 carriages (=8 tiles).
09:32:21  <Celestar> difference between YAPP block and LZB block being: when entering a YAPP block, the train must be able to go to a SWP, when entering a LZB block, this is not needed.
09:32:38  <Celestar> peter1138: yeah. I realized. thanks.
09:32:54  <Celestar> Tekky: that is a good point
09:33:47  <Tekky> The LZB signalling system also requires safe waiting locations? Deadlocks can also occur with LZB.....
09:34:15  <Tekky> unless you define an LZB block as a one-way piece of track with no switches.
09:34:40  <Celestar> Tekky: for me an LZB block is a one-way piece of track with no joining switches.
09:34:54  <Celestar> separating switches would be possible.
09:35:29  <Celestar> but that's the users problem (=
09:37:05  <Ammler> me is wondering, if Celestar already asked for binaries?
09:39:20  <Celestar> yes
09:39:28  <Celestar> me->shower();
09:42:59  <Tekky> error C2039: 'shower' : is not a member of 'me'
09:43:29  <yorick> error: can't execute errors
09:45:02  <Tekky> in an LZB block, trains are allowed to queue up directly next to each other, aren't they?
09:45:10  <Tekky> I mean directly after each other?
09:52:14  <FauxFaux> 21/10:51:58 < FauxFaux> << me->shower();
09:52:15  <FauxFaux> 21/10:51:58 < geordi> error: 'me' was not declared in this scope
09:53:00  <Ammler> Celestar: is the compiling already sheduled?
09:53:28  <Ammler> (just asking, if we need to compile them self ;-)
09:55:20  <Tekky> I didn't know that Cargodest had its own compile farm. Where can the binary be obtained?
09:56:04  <Rubidium>
09:58:12  <Ammler> Rubidium: that is an old build
09:58:37  <Rubidium> it's the most recent build
09:58:43  <Ammler> yes, but old :P
09:59:23  <Ammler> well, we build it self and wait for it...
10:01:48  *** rortom [] has joined #openttd
10:02:40  <Tekky> Rubidium: thx
10:10:34  *** fjb [] has joined #openttd
10:10:38  <fjb> Hello
10:12:45  <Celestar> Tekky: yes they may queue up directly behind one another, plus a certain safety distance (maybe one tile?)
10:12:51  <Celestar> Ammler: not that I know of
10:14:27  <Tekky> why does the OpenTTD webpage redirect* to*? What is the point of the double slash?
10:16:17  * Alberth wonders 'How did I ever manage to play OpenTTD without cargodest?' Totally hoplesssly hooked :P
10:16:32  <Alberth> s/hoplessly/hopelessly/
10:16:47  <Forked> it's a really nice feature
10:17:00  <Forked> one can't really thank Celestar and peter enough for it
10:17:02  <peter1138> Then add shared infrastructure...
10:18:42  <Tekky> Alberth: I mainly played OpenTTD with non-passenger cargo, that's how I managed without cargodest for three years :)
10:18:51  <Alberth> Completely flat land (512x256), put some towns on it. Task: Connect all towns. Brilliant game play!!
10:19:53  <Alberth> Tekky: Yeh, I did that too. Passengers without explicit destinations is just not fun enough
10:21:32  <Celestar> methinks we should merge :>
10:21:46  <Alberth> +1 !
10:21:57  *** Yeggstry [] has joined #openttd
10:23:13  * Alberth uses cargodest branch as 'trunk' :P
10:25:25  *** Progman [] has joined #openttd
10:25:38  * peter1138 ponders doing a code review.
10:27:18  <Celestar> peter1138: feel free.
10:28:12  <Rubidium> Celestar: but the todo isn't done yet
10:28:23  <Celestar> Rubidium: not sure want want to do the todo (=
10:33:08  <Rubidium> peter1138: could you translate Celestar's English in something I can understand, like simple English?
10:33:46  <Celestar> Rubidium: not sure we want to do the todo (=
10:33:57  <Rubidium> Celestar: and you might want to take another look at the review I did a few days ago because I didn't see much feedback on that (in the code)
10:34:14  <peter1138> Where is that?
10:34:16  <Celestar> Rubidium: I was on the road, I'm working on some of the stuff (=
10:35:25  <Rubidium> then why do you state that you want to merge?
10:35:49  <Celestar> Rubidium: because I _want_ to :P
10:35:54  <Celestar> not that I'm doing it (=
10:36:41  *** Vikthor [] has joined #openttd
10:38:43  *** Singaporekid [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
10:39:50  *** insulfrog [~trainslov@] has left #openttd []
10:41:53  <ccfreak2k> It would be nice if you could look at a passenger station and see what the "demand" is for passengers to go to some particular town.
10:45:15  *** Belugas [~belugas@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
10:45:15  *** ecke [~ecke@] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
10:47:38  *** Belugas [~belugas@] has joined #openttd
10:47:39  *** mode/#openttd [+o Belugas] by ChanServ
10:48:03  <Celestar> \o Belugas
10:48:54  *** KUDr [] has joined #openttd
10:49:08  <Tekky> KUDr is back?
10:49:22  <Tekky> the author of YAPF?
10:49:36  <Celestar> aye
10:49:43  <yorick> aya
10:49:45  <Celestar> and our C++ guru :D
10:50:05  <yorick> and our C++ guru :)
10:50:12  * yorick hides
10:50:31  <Tekky> hi KUDr, haven't seen you for about 9 months :)
10:50:35  <guru3> yarrrrr
10:50:40  *** KritiK [] has joined #openttd
10:50:48  * guru3 got highlighted
10:51:34  <Tekky> KUDr: are you aware that PBS is now implemented in OpenTTD, thanks to your YAPF implementation? :)
10:52:00  <Rubidium> Tekky: really thanks too? It does work on more than only YAPF
10:52:30  <Tekky> YAPP also works with NPF?
10:52:40  <Celestar> apparently ...
10:53:10  *** ecke [~ecke@] has joined #openttd
10:53:18  <Tekky> oh, I thought the main reason for implementing YAPF was in order to enable proper PBS support?
10:53:59  <Rubidium> Tekky: YAPF, NPF and OTP
10:54:15  <Tekky> I remember KUDr writing that YAPF was a necessary prerequisite for making a proper PBS implementation.
10:55:22  <yorick> OTP is gone..NTP is left
10:59:13  <Tekky> I wonder what KUDr had in mind when he made that statement. Maybe he had a PBS implementation in mind that didn't make path reservations on the basis of individual track pieces, but rather whole segments of track....
11:03:10  <Eddi|zuHause> <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: why does the DB build a track for 300km/h, install catenary for 330km/h only to use the track with 250km/h later on? <- one problem with mixing freight and high speed trains is that total line capacity depends on difference between fastest and slowest speed, so by reducing the max speed, you get higher capacity for the low speed trains
11:04:24  *** Brianetta [] has joined #openttd
11:08:06  <peter1138> Not many desyncs in that game...
11:08:29  <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: putting freight trains on a high-speed track is idiotic by design.
11:08:40  <Celestar> peter1138: in what game?
11:09:03  <roboboy> yeah
11:09:13  <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: it lowers the capacity, it poses serious design restrictions, it wears the tracks and lowers the comfort for passengers.
11:09:14  <Eddi|zuHause> i have no idea why they do that either, the existing tracks don't disappear
11:11:11  <ln-> people, you live in the wrong country if you need to complain about 250 km/h
11:11:26  <Forked> or rather.. in the right one
11:11:52  <hylje> yay for high speed being 140km/h
11:12:21  <Celestar> ln-: I don't. if we would be able to actually go 250km/h from A to B.
11:12:36  <Celestar> ln-: and not on 20% of the distance from A to B, and the other 80% are 100km/h or below
11:12:45  <Eddi|zuHause> the last train i used went 90km/h on the part that i witnessed
11:13:02  <Celestar> bbl food
11:13:17  <Eddi|zuHause> but it was a local train, with lots of intermediate stops ;)
11:13:47  <peter1138> Celestar: 0.6.2 game on Brianetta's server.
11:14:00  <peter1138> With a low RV limit, and no waypoints...
11:14:01  <Brianetta> (:
11:14:21  <peter1138> I think welshdragon still desynced though...
11:14:33  <ln-> our high speed bullet trains do not even qualify as high speed trains, the max speed being 220 km/h. (which they don't even achieve almost ever, in practice.)
11:15:17  *** jpm [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
11:15:22  <hylje> they do get up to 200km/h in some routes
11:15:29  <hylje> namely Hki-Tre, Hki-Lahti
11:17:00  <Eddi|zuHause> you have only trees and lakes, where would you want to go at these speeds anyway?
11:17:02  <ln-> but not the whole route, and in any case schedules are made for slower speeds so they'll just wait on the next station if they happen to go fast.
11:17:10  *** |Jeroen| [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
11:17:40  <hylje> pendolinos go tikkurila-tampere without stops. total stops between helsinki and tampere is two
11:17:50  *** |Jeroen| [] has joined #openttd
11:18:02  <hylje> but granted they'll just go slower if schedule says so
11:18:24  <hylje> 'ts fun in the commuter trains
11:18:32  <TrueBrain> Celestar: started, takes about 25 minutes
11:19:03  <ln-> we shouldn't also forget that they regularly stop at arbitrary points of the track when the pendolino breaks down.
11:19:30  <ln-> quality work from italy.
11:20:34  <Eddi|zuHause> i can't get used to this name "pendolino"... it sounds more like a commuter train than a high speed train
11:21:08  <ben_goodger> my IT teacher called them "pedalos"
11:22:00  <ln-> Eddi|zuHause: see this educational video:
11:25:41  *** Chrill [] has joined #openttd
11:25:46  * Chrill prods Brianetta
11:25:51  <hylje> 3-unit pendolinos ha ha
11:26:36  <Brianetta> hi Chrill
11:26:57  <Chrill> would your server make use of a 512x512 scenario utilizing boats a lot? :)
11:27:27  <Brianetta> no
11:27:27  <Chrill> I've rebuilt cities and am going to start fiddling with Industries
11:27:31  <Chrill> waii?
11:27:35  <Brianetta> limit is at 20 ships
11:27:39  <Brianetta> CPU load
11:27:49  <Chrill> well, then, the map size was the major question
11:28:00  <Brianetta> ah
11:28:05  <Chrill> seeing how you, AFAICT, mainly use 256
11:28:07  <Brianetta> that's the area I ususally use
11:28:10  <Chrill> oh
11:28:14  <Brianetta> I use 1024x256
11:28:18  <Chrill> ah
11:28:40  <Chrill> Well, I'll keep on working on this scenario and send you a preview later, k?
11:28:45  <Brianetta> yes (:
11:28:52  <Brianetta> Just started a new game now, so no rush
11:30:21  <Chrill> okay
11:30:30  <Chrill> i noticed it was down recently so I opted for working on my scen :P
11:33:33  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14368 /trunk/src/ (roadveh_cmd.cpp table/roadveh_movement.h): -Fix [FS#1852]: trams jumping when reversing on a single trambit (like caused during road construction reworks) or when (manually) reversing in a corner.
11:34:40  *** tokai [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
11:42:34  <Chrill> butt, it gave me way too many industries when i accidently pushed "Many industries" something
11:45:55  *** Doorslammer [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
11:48:00  *** Doorslammer [] has joined #openttd
11:52:50  <Chrill> Brianetta, MSN?
11:57:53  <TrueBrain> Celestar:
11:58:48  <Brianetta> Chrill: I have MSN, yes
11:58:59  <Brianetta> but I'm not at home
12:00:33  <Chrill> ah
12:00:50  <Chrill> well, im tryin to cleanse some industries still, shall I PM it over TT-forums lateR?
12:01:35  *** letto [~letto@] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
12:04:56  <Brianetta> sure
12:08:37  *** juicetyve [] has joined #openttd
12:10:56  <Chrill> sent!
12:14:23  <Ammler> thank you TrueBrain
12:14:49  <TrueBrain> np; OS X failed btw, it doesn't have boost .. and I currently don't have the time to figure out how to feed that to him :p
12:16:40  <Ammler> oh
12:17:14  <Ammler> well, I guess, boost is the final issue for cargodest :-)
12:18:29  *** Fuco [~dota.keys@] has joined #openttd
12:18:42  <peter1138> I wouldn't say final :p
12:18:56  <TrueBrain> but a clean solution it does require
12:20:35  *** rortom [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
12:21:21  *** RPGprayer [] has quit [Quit: ( :: NoNameScript 4.2 :: )]
12:22:00  *** Dred_furst [] has joined #openttd
12:22:43  <peter1138> But it does require a clean solution.
12:23:06  <TrueBrain> require clean solution it does
12:23:12  <peter1138> (but)
12:23:52  <peter1138> It does but a clean solution require.
12:24:00  *** glx [] has joined #openttd
12:24:03  *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ
12:27:05  <TrueBrain> mercurial and merging are two things that don't really combine ...
12:27:19  <TrueBrain> and how now do I get a diff from the latest merge ....
12:27:48  <TrueBrain> ah, figured thatout
12:38:28  *** Gekz [] has quit [Quit: leaving]
12:40:51  <Ammler> TrueBrain: that is suprisingly easy.
12:41:19  <TrueBrain> what is?
12:41:23  *** Gekz [] has joined #openttd
12:41:56  <Ammler> if you mean a svn patch to last merge...
12:42:22  <TrueBrain> Ammler: I meant that it took me a moment to figure out what 'hg' command to give to get the diff since the latest merge
12:42:31  <TrueBrain> but it turned out 'tip' showed me the right revision
12:42:47  <TrueBrain> still, merging remains a pain, as it doesn't show which files are in conflict with 'hg status' or what ever ..
12:43:06  *** Celestar [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
12:43:11  *** sulai [] has joined #openttd
12:45:42  <Tekky> with hg, is there a possibility to checkout an indiviudal revision? hg clone seems to download the entire repository.
12:45:59  <TrueBrain> then run: hg update -r<revision>
12:45:59  *** Wezz6400 [] has joined #openttd
12:46:39  <peter1138> Yeah, that's how hg works. You clone the repo then update to the specific revision.
12:46:59  *** lobster_MB [] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep]
12:47:23  <Tekky> but downloading the enitre repository doubles the size of my download, normally.
12:47:54  *** Brianetta [] has quit [Quit: TschÌß]
12:48:18  *** Gekz [] has left #openttd []
12:48:25  <TrueBrain> that is only true if the size of the hg doubled from the revision you want, and the 'tip' revision
12:48:27  <TrueBrain> doubtful :p
12:48:31  *** Gekz [] has joined #openttd
12:49:46  <TrueBrain> lol, the amount of data I receive when I do: 'svn checkout' is more than when I do: 'hg clone' :p
12:49:59  <TrueBrain> (and with hg I receive a bunch more information :p)
12:50:45  <Tekky> oh, is it? I only noticed that hg clone takes a lot more HD space than svn checkout.
12:51:45  <Rubidium> then you might be comparing them wrongly
12:51:51  <TrueBrain> most likely he is
12:52:51  <TrueBrain> $ svn checkout svn://
12:52:52  <TrueBrain> $ du -h trunk
12:52:56  <TrueBrain> 49M     trunk
12:53:10  <TrueBrain> $ hg clone
12:53:11  *** roboboy [] has quit [Quit: ajax IRC Client]
12:53:16  <TrueBrain> $ du -h trunk.hg/.hg
12:53:19  <TrueBrain> 39M     trunk.hg/.hg
12:53:24  <TrueBrain> I see a 10 MiB difference
12:53:53  <Rubidium> that's not a right comparison
12:54:07  <TrueBrain> lol @ Rubidium; yes it is
12:54:15  <TrueBrain> that is the amount of data I received from the external source
12:54:36  <Ammler> Rubidium: I can remember, you said the same about :-)
12:54:39  <TrueBrain> after that my trunk.hg grows to 62M because it makes a working copy for me
12:54:55  <TrueBrain> but that was never any data I received from any remote source
12:54:58  <Rubidium> but svn does that silently
12:55:08  <TrueBrain> SVN received the workout from the external source
12:55:16  <TrueBrain> it doesn't have that data in his .svn
12:55:30  <Rubidium> TrueBrain: run fdupes over trunk
12:55:39  <Rubidium> and be amazed by the number of duplicate files
12:55:48  <TrueBrain> duplciated from where?
12:56:49  <Rubidium> duplicate between $filename and .svn/$filename.svn-base
12:57:16  <Rubidium> duplicate between $filename and .svn/text-base/$filename.svn-base
12:57:21  <TrueBrain> yes, so?
12:57:26  <TrueBrain> that size is counted only once
12:57:52  <Rubidium> why is that only counted once?
12:58:01  <Rubidium> you check the total size of all files in the directory
12:59:35  <TrueBrain> ah, you mean it like that, k, fair enough
13:01:10  <TrueBrain> so, removing the workout copy
13:01:11  <TrueBrain> 26M     .
13:01:15  <peter1138> Total of 35MB for my .svn files.
13:01:18  <TrueBrain> so, hg ineed is 50% bigger
13:01:29  <TrueBrain> with that comes the complete history of all files ..
13:01:34  <TrueBrain> still makes you wonder what svn did wrong :p
13:02:07  <peter1138> Hmm, that's not file size :o
13:02:12  *** Zealotus [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:02:55  <Rubidium> anyhow, the overhead of hg vs svn is 25% (including working copy)
13:03:21  <TrueBrain> and without working copy it is 50%
13:03:28  <Rubidium> where svn requires a network connection and a server storing several hundreds MBs of data
13:03:48  <Rubidium> and hg has all the information it needs locally
13:04:12  <TrueBrain> Rubidium: how ever I calculate, I never get 25%
13:04:14  <TrueBrain> at least 40%
13:04:21  <Ammler> and why do you still use svn as "main" repo?
13:04:22  <TrueBrain> @calc 49 / 62
13:04:22  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: 0.790322580645
13:04:27  <TrueBrain> @calc 62 / 49
13:04:27  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: 1.26530612245
13:04:38  <TrueBrain> Ammler: centralized
13:04:59  <TrueBrain> 26% .. I can't do math :p
13:04:59  <TrueBrain> lol
13:06:08  <Rubidium> Ammler: because subversion has the habit to number all commits sequentially and every checkout of a svn repository has them in the same sequence
13:06:27  *** grumbel [] has joined #openttd
13:06:27  <TrueBrain> openttd:/var/repos/svn# du -h openttd -s
13:06:27  <TrueBrain> 433M    openttd
13:07:51  <Rubidium> whereas hg also numbers commits, also sequentially, but at the time they were added to your own checkout, not to some global checkout
13:08:09  <Rubidium> which makes the sequential hg number useless
13:08:11  <TrueBrain> openttd:/var/repos/hg# du -h -s -L
13:08:11  <TrueBrain> 256M    .
13:08:15  <TrueBrain> (including developers-spaces)
13:08:23  <TrueBrain> openttd:/var/repos/git# du -h -s -L
13:08:23  <TrueBrain> 92M     .
13:08:24  <TrueBrain> hehe
13:08:51  <Rubidium> and that's why they use those long hashes as "unique" version numbers
13:11:05  <Ammler> doesn't the hg repo of the server count sequentially?
13:11:36  <Rubidium> yes
13:11:55  <Rubidium> can an user query those revision numbers?
13:11:56  <Rubidium> no
13:12:26  <TrueBrain> Ammler: pick any random 2 hgs based on the same hg on the developers part of, and you see 2 commits have different versions (because of merges)
13:12:26  <Ammler> as long as you use that repo only in read mode, why not?
13:12:51  <Rubidium> because then you need to query that EACH AND EVERY TIME you compile
13:13:06  <Ammler> like svn
13:13:13  <Rubidium> no
13:13:21  <Rubidium> svn knows it's local version number
13:13:49  <Ammler> if I clone the hg repo, I have the same numbers as teh server...
13:13:59  <Rubidium> not necessarily
13:14:03  <Ammler> and still, when I pull later, not?
13:14:18  * TrueBrain suggests adding Bazaar :p
13:14:35  <Ammler> but that's how "clone" should work, isn't?
13:15:13  <TrueBrain> Ammler: it does work as long as you have only a 'clone' ... but as soon as you make a local commit and start merging, things go very wrong
13:15:19  <TrueBrain> (the decentralised part of Mercurial)
13:15:42  <TrueBrain> only centralized VCSes can give a revision that is unique throughout the project
13:15:46  <Rubidium> clone only guarantees that the parent "pointers" from each "revision" are correct
13:17:13  <Rubidium> not that the order at which the revisions reach your client are exactly the same as on the server
13:17:19  <TrueBrain> Rubidium: assuming there are no multiple heads in a hg repos, the chances are VERY high that a 'clone' gives identical revisions :)
13:18:26  <TrueBrain> Rubidium: becuase of how hg works, that is kind og guaranteed :) (Well, without multiple heads, that is)
13:18:33  <Rubidium> so... it only works for the svn-repos and not for the developer repositories
13:19:43  <Rubidium> and whenever we would start actually using HG as main repository system we would need one person to pull from all developers and push that to the main server
13:19:51  <Rubidium> or things are going to get even more messy
13:20:02  <yorick> why doesn't the console have the ability to print "\t"
13:21:10  <Ammler> yorick: do you use trunk? there was recently a utf-8 support added (around 2 months)
13:21:36  <peter1138> \t has not much to do with UTF-8...
13:21:36  <yorick> yes, using trunk
13:21:41  <yorick> but it displays "?"
13:21:56  <yorick> also \n to console tends to display improperly
13:21:57  <TrueBrain> Rubidium: developers would still be able to commit like svn to a main hg, and when they get a 'clone' again, the version number still is the same on every clone
13:21:57  <Ammler> oh tab
13:22:31  <Ammler> it looked like a chinese char :-)
13:22:52  <yorick> C string <-- bad query
13:28:11  *** sulai [] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier.]
13:33:07  *** Dred_furst` [] has joined #openttd
13:34:28  *** Celestar [] has joined #openttd
13:34:31  *** mode/#openttd [+o Celestar] by ChanServ
13:35:39  *** TrueBrain [] has quit [Quit: Look at me flying!]
13:35:55  *** TrueBrain [] has joined #openttd
13:36:06  *** Dred_furst [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:38:15  *** Celestar_ [] has joined #openttd
13:38:19  *** Zealotus [] has joined #openttd
13:38:36  *** Celestar is now known as Guest854
13:38:36  *** Celestar_ is now known as Celestar
13:38:41  *** Celestar [] has quit []
13:38:57  *** Celestar [] has joined #openttd
13:38:59  *** mode/#openttd [+o Celestar] by ChanServ
13:39:21  *** rortom [] has joined #openttd
13:42:48  *** Guest854 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:03:59  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r14369 /trunk/src/vehicle.cpp:
14:03:59  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Fix: Enforce non-front engines to be stopped.
14:03:59  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: This could be caused by old savegames resp. their conversion, and causes
14:03:59  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: trouble for e.g. autoreplace.
14:09:25  *** Swallow [] has joined #openttd
14:14:41  *** Euro_swallow [] has joined #openttd
14:20:16  *** Swallow [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:20:23  *** Euro_swallow is now known as Swallow
14:23:32  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... some of you are python literate, right? is there a predefined "empty" class? i want to do stuff like this:
14:23:34  <Eddi|zuHause> a=None
14:23:38  <Eddi|zuHause> a.x = 5
14:23:55  <Eddi|zuHause> but then it errors out with "NoneType has no attribute x"
14:24:10  <Eddi|zuHause> and it also doesn't work with object() instead of None
14:24:14  <TrueBrain> dah
14:24:17  <TrueBrain> lol :)
14:24:24  <TrueBrain> None is not a class, it is nothing :)
14:24:34  <TrueBrain> and do you really want a class, or a table?
14:24:34  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but object is a class
14:24:38  <TrueBrain> a = {}
14:24:41  <TrueBrain> a['x'] = 5
14:24:57  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd not like a dictionary
14:25:40  <Eddi|zuHause> i mean i could define a class for this, but it seems silly that such a thing would not be predefined
14:25:47  <Tekky> if the repository grew very much due to many changes, then hg offers no way to only checkout the latest revision, whereas svn does? That is correct, isn't it?
14:26:06  <frosch123> Tekky: hg pull?
14:26:32  <TrueBrain> Tekky: the trunk hg contains 10000 commits, and still is almost smaller ... so how much would you want it to grow before that can become an issue?
14:27:02  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: never needed that, as I think it is bad programming, so can't help you there :)
14:27:13  <TrueBrain> (I believe in prototyping a class, or use a table :))
14:27:55  *** sulai [] has joined #openttd
14:29:12  <Tekky> TrueBrain: Well, I guess the OpenTTD commits are very small. Other projects which involve changes to big data files, such as art files, can cause the repository to get very large very quickly. Therefore, I consider it important to be able to download only the latest revision.
14:29:39  <frosch123> iirc hg cannot deal with binary files
14:29:57  <TrueBrain> Tekky: we are not a support channel for a VCS choice ;) For that there are other channels, which can advise you much much better :)
14:30:05  <Tekky> frosch123: the pull command assumes that you have a local repository, doesn't it?
14:30:30  <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: well, my issue is that a primitive "class Empty: pass" would seem out of place... it does not serve any purpose
14:30:40  <TrueBrain> but I won't want to host your VCS, that is fore sure :) (most VCSes can only handle text-blobs in a normal way .. binary data becomes BIG! :p)
14:30:42  <frosch123> Tekky: "hg pull" is like "svn update"
14:30:49  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: glx * r14370 /branches/noai/ (35 files in 7 dirs): [NoAI] -Sync: with trunk r14337:14369
14:31:13  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: I tihnk abusing a class is out of place ;) (hehe :))
14:31:18  <frosch123> and it seams my "IIRC" was wrong :s
14:32:15  <glx> frosch123: wrong, "hg fetch" is like "svn update"
14:32:19  <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: but internally, the attributes of a class are stored in a dictionary anyway
14:32:29  <glx> and "hg fetch" is "hg pull && hg update"
14:32:40  <frosch123> ok :)
14:32:56  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: so why use a class in the first place?
14:33:01  <frosch123> but "hg pull" prints a warning about that :)
14:33:20  <glx> and you often need "hg commit" too after a merge
14:34:02  <glx> (merge is also done with "hg pull")
14:34:47  <Eddi|zuHause> well, the entire issue is way too complex...
14:36:38  <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: mainly, for an "abstract" constructor i wanted to say "this variable will get filled with attributes later"
14:37:06  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm dealing with Attributed Abstract Grammars
14:37:14  <TrueBrain> so, create a class for that :)
14:37:42  <Eddi|zuHause> well, yes... class... but i have no suitible place to define that class, so i hoped there was a predefined one ;)
14:38:01  *** Volley [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
14:38:28  <Tekky> TrueBrain: I do not plan to make my own repository, I am just surprised that hg offers no equivalent to the svn checkout command, i.e. you are forced to download the entire repository even if all you want is the latest revision.
14:39:04  <TrueBrain> Tekky: when you want that from hg, you miss the point of hg :)
14:39:09  <TrueBrain> hg is a decentralized VCS
14:39:16  <TrueBrain> so by default, you want a complete history on your local disk
14:39:20  <TrueBrain> what you want, is a centralized VCS
14:39:22  <frosch123> Tekky: Maybe you want an equivalent to "svn export"?
14:39:25  <TrueBrain> like SVN or CVS
14:39:32  <TrueBrain> so it is not that suprising :)
14:40:31  *** sulai [] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier.]
14:40:35  <Eddi|zuHause> he just wants to skip one level of decentralisation
14:40:59  <TrueBrain> there are hybrids out there
14:41:23  *** JdGordon [] has joined #openttd
14:41:40  <JdGordon> does anyone know how to compile openttd for windows mobile?
14:42:00  *** nekx [] has joined #openttd
14:42:24  <glx> JdGordon: no
14:42:30  <TrueBrain> JdGordon: OpenTTD is not supported on Windows Mobile out of the box
14:42:37  <TrueBrain> it hangs for unknown reasons
14:42:47  <TrueBrain> you might want to check out a project on the web which has a working port
14:43:09  <Tekky> <TrueBrain>	so by default, you want a complete history on your local disk <-- I understand that, but I don't understand why hg offers no possibility of overriding this default. This can be important if the repository is much larger than the latest revision.
14:43:09  <glx> I just know it requires a pro version of visual studio
14:43:28  <TrueBrain> Tekky: maybe because then all its functionalities fail? :)
14:43:32  <TrueBrain> well, maybe you can override it
14:43:34  <JdGordon> ah nuts
14:43:36  <JdGordon> ok thanls
14:43:42  <TrueBrain> but then again, I don't care about that feature, as you would abuse what hg is meant to do
14:43:53  <TrueBrain> as I said, you are better of asking those questions in an other channel Tekky :)
14:48:19  *** sulai [] has joined #openttd
14:48:25  <Eddi|zuHause> hm, would it work if ".hg" pointed to the remote repository, and then only doing "hg up"?
14:48:31  *** TinoDidriksen [~projectjj@] has joined #openttd
14:48:41  *** JdGordon [] has left #openttd [Konversation terminated!]
14:54:09  <Tekky> TrueBrain: if all I want to do is to apply a patch to the latest cargodest revision and then throw it away, which happens often to me, then an equivalent to the SVN checkout command would be best for my purpose, I think. Wouldn't it be more appropriate to store cargodest on a centralized VCS instead of Mercurial server? I guess I should read more about VCSes on Wikiipedia.
14:54:55  <TrueBrain> Tekky: cargodest is in development; in development it turns out Mercurial is much better and easier to use, than a SVN branch
14:55:56  <TrueBrain> Tekky: and the other option you always have, is to download the source from the latest compile of cargodest, and extract that
14:56:02  <TrueBrain> consumes just 3 MiB of bandiwdth
14:56:03  <Tekky> shouldn't the AI branch also be a Mercurial branch then, instead of an SVN branch?
14:56:31  <TrueBrain> when we started hg was not really in use
14:56:32  <Tekky> or is this because there are less people working on cargodest than on the AI branch?
14:56:37  <TrueBrain> and for NoAI it turned out to be more useful in SVN
14:57:04  <TrueBrain> and for NoAI, I myself do have a hg repos
14:58:30  *** Celestar [] has quit [Quit: leaving]
14:58:30  <Tekky> TrueBrain: does your hg repository contain all the revisions in the SVN tree or is it only a snapshot of a certain SVN revision?
14:59:13  <TrueBrain> all hg repos contain the complete history of the SVN branch they are based on
14:59:36  <Tekky> the SVN commits and hg commits are compatible, aren't they, as they both use unified diff formats?
14:59:55  <glx> the only problem is hg or git repos miss some changes (when you commit from the wrong dir)
15:00:02  <TrueBrain> they don't use that, but they can output as such
15:00:14  <TrueBrain> glx: how do you mean?
15:00:26  <glx> (like I did when I commited from extra instead from ottd_grf)
15:00:32  <TrueBrain> Tekky: and I rather use hg over SVN, as in hg I do TONS more commits, as SVN is .. more permanent :)
15:00:50  <Tekky> ok, thx. As you can see, I am completely new to version control systems.
15:01:13  <TrueBrain> read up on it on the Internet
15:01:32  <TrueBrain> glx: I don't know of any such problems?
15:01:48  <TrueBrain> in the first case, my dont-reimport-everything-protection-script is bugged
15:02:52  <glx> TrueBrain: <-- this one should be in ottd_grf too
15:03:31  <TrueBrain> haha, that explains why there was a french blob in the website all of a sudden :p
15:03:32  <TrueBrain> hehehehe
15:03:40  <TrueBrain> glx: someone shouldhave told me :)
15:03:54  <glx> I think I told it
15:04:43  <TrueBrain> not by highlighting my name, first time I read about it :)
15:08:40  *** Euro_swallow [] has joined #openttd
15:09:23  <TrueBrain> there you go glx :)
15:09:34  <TrueBrain> indeed a mistake in my detection script about what to update :)
15:09:46  <glx> looking in my logs I though you were aware of it ;)
15:09:51  <TrueBrain> (it could only handle 1 branch at the time :p)
15:10:12  <TrueBrain> I really wasn't :( As I have been wondering where that french came from :p
15:10:14  <TrueBrain> hehehe :)
15:10:20  <TrueBrain> oh well, fixed now :)
15:12:34  <yorick> hm, likes to say 0 [main] sh 4176 sync_with_child: child 5068(0x174) died before initialization with status code 0xFFFFFFFF
15:12:59  <yorick> 3701 [main] sh 4176 sync_with_child: *** child state waiting for longjmp fork: Resource temporarily unavailable  svn: Write error: Invalid argument
15:14:02  <glx> retry
15:14:13  *** Swallow [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:14:16  <yorick> works
15:14:25  *** Euro_swallow is now known as Swallow
15:17:25  * peter1138 returns
15:18:16  * hylje yields
15:19:21  * TrueBrain resumes
15:26:16  * Doorslammer something
15:31:42  * yorick somethings
15:33:52  * murray screams
15:35:36  <Tekky> In OpenTTD, when you get the offer to exclusively test a new train, what exact consequences does your response have? Does the train end up having a better reliability if you test the train one year before its official appearance?
15:36:42  *** Doorslammer [] has quit []
15:38:02  <yorick> no
15:38:15  <yorick> newgrfs can set another appearance
15:38:28  <yorick> I think you might get it cheaper
15:38:35  <hylje> if you agree to test, you must invest in one and use it during the year
15:38:49  <yorick> you don't have to
15:38:57  <hylje> if you agree and don't get one, you'll stop getting offers
15:39:14  <peter1138> For a bit.
15:39:19  <hylje> if you don't agree nothing special happens
15:40:18  *** Frostregen [] has joined #openttd
15:41:26  *** Zahl [] has joined #openttd
15:42:25  <TrueBrain> hylje: the next player gets the offer ;)
15:44:58  <Tekky> ah, in multiplayer, it is randomized who gets the offer?
15:46:04  * yorick only needed 190 lines :)
15:48:43  <peter1138> Tekky, no, it's sorted by company rating, I believe.
15:48:59  <Tekky> ah, thx
15:49:03  <planetmaker> [17:38]	<hylje>	if you agree and don't get one, you'll stop getting offers <-- not true. I frequently do so and keep getting offers.
15:52:12  <TrueBrain> planetmaker: only after N years, you get an other one again
15:52:20  <TrueBrain> much less often than when you would have built one
15:52:35  <planetmaker> ah, thx TrueBrain :)
15:52:47  <planetmaker> So, if you decline, you will get others, though?
15:55:14  <TrueBrain> yes
15:58:05  <Eddi|zuHause> so... next python problem... how can i pass an int by reference?
15:58:20  <hylje> you don't
15:58:27  <Eddi|zuHause> but i have to
15:58:32  <hylje> for what purpose
15:58:58  <Eddi|zuHause> to modify its value in a recursive function
15:59:49  <hylje> i don't think you need to do that. just have your recursive function return the modified value
15:59:55  <yorick> what are you using python for?
16:00:27  <Eddi|zuHause> yorick: rapid prototyping...
16:00:33  <Eddi|zuHause> what else is python useful for?
16:00:37  <hylje> glue
16:01:08  <Eddi|zuHause> hylje: the problem with returning the value is, i have to handle that return value at every place the function is used
16:01:20  <Eddi|zuHause> but i need very generic replaceable functions
16:01:22  <hylje> nested function
16:01:53  <yorick> or just put stuff in a dict?
16:02:32  <Eddi|zuHause> dicts are bad...
16:02:51  <hylje> in python not really
16:02:53  <yorick> so is passing an int by reference
16:03:01  <yorick> that'd be worse
16:03:07  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd have absolutely no chance to ever statically check my own program with my program ;)
16:03:34  <hylje> i suspect you don't actually want to use python then
16:03:47  <yorick> only thing is I miss in python are objects
16:03:53  <hylje> eh, what?
16:04:00  <hylje> like the `object` builtin?
16:04:03  <Eddi|zuHause> well, the task is to statically check python ;;
16:04:37  <yorick> hylje: no, basically dicts I can access with "."
16:04:40  <Eddi|zuHause> but dicts are pretty much the worst to statically check
16:05:01  <yorick> for key in dict?
16:05:08  <valhallasw> yorick: like... properties?
16:05:14  <hylje> yorick: attributes
16:05:22  <yorick> attributes, yes
16:05:34  <valhallasw> attributes is the right term for python indeed
16:05:49  <hylje> just make a dummy subclass of object and use that?
16:06:07  <valhallasw> or rather: "Properties: attributes managed by get/set methods"
16:06:27  <yorick> yes, you need a subclass
16:06:33  <yorick> I don't like dummy subclasses
16:06:45  <yorick> I just want o = object(); o.a = 10
16:06:54  <hylje> too bad object doesn't have a __dict__ but one has to optimize something
16:07:02  <valhallasw> why would you want to do that with variables that are not used in the object?
16:07:21  <hylje> valhallasw: to have a syntax-sugary dict
16:07:38  <yorick> to have a syntax-sugary dict
16:09:59  <valhallasw> right
16:10:25  <valhallasw> the way you stated it would mean 'I want to be able to do this with *any* object'
16:10:39  <valhallasw> if you just want a syntax-sugary dict, create one :P
16:10:52  <yorick> I want one out of the box
16:12:15  <yorick> why does my gcc have dutch error messages all of a sudden?
16:12:26  <valhallasw> .. it's like 5 lines of code :P
16:12:28  <yorick> how does it even know I understand dutch
16:12:43  <valhallasw> try asking locale
16:12:44  <yorick> valhallasw: that is already too much for a command-line
16:12:59  <yorick> notfair :(
16:13:29  <valhallasw> then import SyntaxSugaryDict ;)
16:13:41  <yorick> not portable enough
16:13:42  <valhallasw> which is still longer than o = object(), agreed
16:14:35  <valhallasw> then stop whining and use dict['a'] :P
16:14:53  <valhallasw> which is /not/ limited to strings
16:15:27  <valhallasw> unless you use o.__getattr__(object), but that defeats the purpose :P
16:15:32  *** lobster [~michielbi@] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
16:15:43  <yorick> also, I would like to have a stdout replacement in less than 185 lines of C
16:16:16  <valhallasw> also, I would like to travel faster than C
16:16:33  <yorick> and Syntax Sugary Dicts should help me do that
16:17:04  <valhallasw> why does o.a vs o['a'] reduce your line count?
16:17:36  <yorick> because I can make stdout.write with the first, and not with the second
16:18:52  *** lobster [~michielbi@] has joined #openttd
16:22:32  <valhallasw> you mean it makes implementing functions dynamically possibler
16:22:35  <valhallasw> -r
16:25:15  <Eddi|zuHause> PS: i solved my reference issue like this:
16:28:46  *** Alberth [] has left #openttd []
16:29:04  *** Progman [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:37:27  *** [com]buster [] has quit [Quit: Operator, give me an exit]
16:57:38  *** Tim [] has joined #openttd
17:00:25  *** Bjarni [] has joined #openttd
17:00:28  *** mode/#openttd [+o Bjarni] by ChanServ
17:03:37  *** fjb [] has quit []
17:09:43  *** Vikthor [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:10:23  *** Volley [] has joined #openttd
17:11:56  *** Mortal [] has joined #openttd
17:14:56  * lobster does a search for a guide to using these "advanced signals"
17:15:01  <lobster> oddest of things
17:18:33  <Eddi|zuHause> there are plenty of those
17:19:16  *** ecke [~ecke@] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:20:38  <lobster> found one, indeed
17:20:52  <lobster> i'll try them immediatly in my game
17:21:49  *** Vikthor [] has joined #openttd
17:22:59  <lobster> hrrr, works like a charm
17:32:07  *** Sacro [~Ben@adsl-87-102-39-137.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
17:32:51  *** welshdragon [~vista@] has joined #openttd
17:33:15  *** ecke [~ecke@] has joined #openttd
17:33:44  *** Dr_Jekyll [] has joined #openttd
17:35:18  *** Vikthor [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:35:44  *** Vikthor [] has joined #openttd
17:37:38  *** FR^2 [] has joined #openttd
17:39:05  *** ecke [~ecke@] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:41:40  *** rortom [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
17:42:14  *** Progman [] has joined #openttd
17:43:49  *** Vikthor [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:45:42  *** Vikthor [] has joined #openttd
17:48:27  <TrueBrain> requesting a skilled C++ template person ...
17:55:54  *** KillaloT [] has joined #openttd
17:56:19  *** Chrill is now known as Official
17:56:56  *** Official is now known as Chrill
18:05:50  *** venus214 [] has joined #openttd
18:09:23  <yorick> where did the flags on the website go?
18:10:24  <peter1138> I believe they're pending some kind of translation support.
18:11:04  <TrueBrain> people complained too much that when they clicked their flag, they still got english ... and failed to understand completely that it might be because it simply wasn't translated yet
18:12:38  <peter1138> I think some kind of text-based dropdown menu would be better, anyway.
18:14:21  <peter1138> 14% of / used... Maybe I made it too big :)
18:15:01  <peter1138> Hmm, 1 hr 30 mins left on ebay...
18:18:36  *** helb [~helb@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:19:01  *** helb [~helb@] has joined #openttd
18:19:06  <juicetyve> buying or selling? :p
18:28:49  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14371 /trunk/src/ (misc_gui.cpp texteff.hpp train_cmd.cpp vehicle.cpp): -Fix [FS#2313]: loading indicator didn't stay with the front engine when turning a train in a station.
18:29:57  *** Swallow [] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.1/2008070208]]
18:31:17  <Bjarni> <juicetyve> buying or selling? :p <-- buying whatever his wife is selling because he is unaware of her ebay nick :P
18:31:51  *** Zahl_ [] has joined #openttd
18:38:57  *** Zahl [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:38:57  *** Zahl_ is now known as Zahl
18:39:34  *** Gekz [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
18:39:48  *** Gekz [] has joined #openttd
18:59:43  <ln->
19:04:09  *** welshdragon [~vista@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:09:13  *** Vikthor [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:11:59  *** Vikthor [] has joined #openttd
19:12:43  *** Zephyris [~Zephyris@] has joined #openttd
19:19:04  *** |Jeroen| [] has quit [Quit: oO]
19:23:56  <Bjarni> ln-: which one would you pick?
19:25:07  <Eddi|zuHause> "a graphically severed human head" <- like the navigator in monkey island?
19:25:22  <Tim> A, then B, then C, then D
19:27:05  <Bjarni> if we read A as the navigator from MI, then I would say D
19:27:30  <Bjarni> if it's a first person shooter and it aims for realistic graphics, then I would say A
19:28:13  <Eddi|zuHause> this question is a typical case of "it depends..."
19:28:21  <Bjarni> yeah
19:28:38  <frosch123> yup, they should have attached the four pictures instead :p
19:28:50  <Prof_Frink> Eddi|zuHause: Nothing "depends". Everything is either right or wrong.
19:28:52  <Eddi|zuHause> like how old the children are, and how detailed the games are
19:28:56  <Bjarni> now that would have been offensive to some people
19:29:05  <Tim> Do you think it would be such an impact on your childs if they see two men kissing each other? Oo
19:29:15  <Bjarni> YES
19:29:18  <Bjarni> :P
19:29:56  <Bjarni> but that's not the question
19:30:08  <Bjarni> the question is what YOU find offensive
19:30:48  <Prof_Frink> Sacro.
19:30:48  <Eddi|zuHause> "as a parent" meaning "if your children would see this"
19:30:53  <Sacro> ?
19:30:56  <Sacro> argh
19:30:58  <Sacro> not men kissing
19:31:18  <Bjarni> I say it would really depend on the age of the child
19:31:30  <Bjarni> say the child is 12
19:31:56  <Bjarni> then I would likely ban all games containing any of those listed here
19:31:59  <Prof_Frink> Are you deciding whet
19:32:08  <Prof_Frink> Are you deciding what to put into openttd?
19:32:30  <Prof_Frink> s/ban/rate 15 and enforce rating/
19:32:50  <Eddi|zuHause> i could never understand all the trouble around "the F-word"
19:32:52  <Bjarni> the game is for all ages who can understand the game
19:33:04  <Bjarni> the code is rated 18+ though
19:33:07  <Prof_Frink> What? France?
19:33:16  <Eddi|zuHause> yes.
19:33:21  <Bjarni> and it has been that way since DV said "fucking cunt code" while coding
19:33:43  <Tim> I think for the next generation it will get more or less "normal" to see two men kissing each other - Considering how the acceptance of homosexuality developed until today ;)
19:34:37  <Bjarni> I'm not so sure if I would allow any game involving people kissing each other
19:34:38  <Eddi|zuHause> traditionally, these things shift very much
19:35:03  <Bjarni> ok, the sims could be an exception ;)
19:35:13  <Eddi|zuHause> like if you compare ancient greek culture to medieval culture
19:35:25  <Bjarni> they can kiss in the sims, right?
19:35:49  <Eddi|zuHause> Bjarni: yes, and you get babies from kissing
19:36:13  <Bjarni> heh
19:36:22  <Tim> Well, i hope we won't make a huge step backwards like the one from the greek/roman culture to the medieevalian one ;)
19:36:28  *** Dred_furst` [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
19:36:50  <Bjarni> I got top grade in biology and the topic for the exam was reproduction oriented. I can inform you that kissing alone isn't enough :P
19:36:50  <Prof_Frink> Tim: Well, the main cause of that was religion. Oh cock.
19:37:02  <Eddi|zuHause> Tim: i'm pretty certain something like that will happen again
19:37:02  <Tim> Truly sad, if you look at what the romans build and knew about medicine and then compare it to the dark age...
19:37:19  <Prof_Frink> Hmm, 8 cunts in trunk
19:37:28  <Bjarni> o_O
19:37:55  <Eddi|zuHause> Prof_Frink: it wasn't that much about religion, it was more about decline of government and infrastructure
19:38:01  <Bjarni> somebody once made a bugreport because the random name generator made "Cunttown"
19:38:35  <Eddi|zuHause> didn't someone reply that this was an actual townname?
19:38:44  <Prof_Frink> Scunthorpe
19:39:22  <yorick> stupid multistop-less trams
19:39:25  <Bjarni> <-- speaking of placenames... I found a bit of Engrish :D
19:39:40  <yorick> get stuck at every stop
19:39:49  <yorick> and they like to go to every stop all at once
19:40:29  <lobster> oh dear me
19:40:40  <lobster> advanced signals fail it at my junction
19:41:16  <Eddi|zuHause> you are doing it wrong
19:43:05  <lobster> actually, no
19:43:09  <lobster> there's bridges in it
19:43:19  <lobster> the signals can't cope with them
19:43:34  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, they can
19:43:56  *** ben_goodger_ [] has joined #openttd
19:45:21  <lobster> i guess not
19:45:28  <lobster> otherwise my junction would've worked
19:45:52  <lobster> t'is the simplest of junctions, only with 2 2-tile bridges inbetween the signals and the station
19:46:09  <lobster> and thus all goes to pot
19:46:20  <peter1138> Screenshot, or savegame?
19:50:04  <lobster> oh wai
19:50:23  <lobster> looks like i'm doing it wrong after all
19:50:36  <Eddi|zuHause> gee...
19:51:02  *** ben_goodger [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:55:27  *** Kasceh [] has joined #openttd
19:55:37  <Kasceh> What happens if I rcon newgame in a server?
19:55:47  <yorick> it stops being a server
19:56:00  <Kasceh> uh oh D:
19:57:32  <OdwallaBongwater> D:
19:57:37  *** OdwallaBongwater is now known as nckomodo
19:57:37  <Kasceh> Oh, is it a script that kicks people if they try do big terraform?
19:58:49  <peter1138> yorick, no it doesn't.
19:59:13  <yorick> Kasceh: is what?
19:59:47  <Kasceh> That 'thing' that can kick people if they delete/terraform large sections of area
20:00:03  <Bjarni> that's called an "admin"
20:00:24  <Kasceh> .. Automatically lol
20:00:37  <yorick> Kasceh: does that exist?
20:00:43  <Kasceh> Yes
20:00:47  <Kasceh> Ive seen it a few tiems
20:00:57  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, kick all players, then you automatically kick the ones that do bad terraforming
20:00:57  <juicetyve> somebody mentioned a patch for it in here last night
20:01:05  <yorick> oh, then you're the one I banned a couple of times :)
20:01:17  <Kasceh> No? lol
20:01:21  <Kasceh> its quite common
20:01:29  <Kasceh> I just cant remember what its called
20:01:42  <yorick> hehe
20:01:53  <yorick> terraform autokick
20:01:59  <yorick> kick if terraform too much
20:02:15  <yorick> I wrote such a patch...
20:02:25  *** yorick [] has quit [Quit: But anyway, Poef!]
20:02:29  <Kasceh> Or is it possible just to make terraform cost alot?
20:03:37  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
20:03:43  <Eddi|zuHause> it's a grf
20:03:50  <Eddi|zuHause> "basecost" or something
20:03:57  <Kasceh> Does everyone else need to grf, though?
20:04:07  <Eddi|zuHause> yes. all people need the grf
20:04:23  <TrueBrain> you can also modify the savegame :p
20:04:24  <TrueBrain> hehehehehee
20:04:51  <Kasceh> Modify it to do what
20:05:13  <Kasceh> Cant trust people in servers, always come back to find the map completely deformed
20:05:45  <Eddi|zuHause> force people to put a company password
20:05:53  <Eddi|zuHause> helps a great deal
20:06:00  <Kasceh> Not on this server it doesnt
20:06:02  <juicetyve> well you get a long way with 100k :p
20:06:16  <Kasceh> it appears at the top, and its a heightmap of the UK
20:06:20  <Kasceh> people just get bored and sink it
20:07:01  <Kasceh> There should be an option of turning off water terraform,
20:07:32  <Kasceh> Or make water terraform cost alot more than it already does
20:08:13  <lobster> Eddi|zuHause: to be fairly honest, i followed the instructions from the wiki
20:08:27  <lobster> so either the instructions are faulty, or the signals are
20:08:52  <Eddi|zuHause> i have still no idea what you actually did
20:09:35  <lobster> well, i tried to apply them to terminal stations
20:09:42  <lobster> which should be doable
20:10:13  <lobster> but not in the manner i tried
20:11:04  *** ecke [~ecke@] has joined #openttd
20:12:01  <Eddi|zuHause> which is exactly the same information as before...
20:12:09  <Eddi|zuHause> stop wasting my time...
20:12:47  *** sulai [] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier.]
20:12:49  <frosch123> hm, the year 0 does neither belong to the first century before nor after christ
20:13:01  *** FR^2 [] has quit [Quit: Connection reset by caffein depletion...]
20:13:10  <Eddi|zuHause> there is no year 0
20:13:20  <Eddi|zuHause> it jumped from -1 to 1
20:13:34  <peter1138> There is in OpenTTD :D
20:13:41  <TrueBrain> were you there?
20:13:54  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, i'm way older than peter1138 ;)
20:14:11  <peter1138> Obviously.
20:14:15  <peter1138> Not!
20:14:21  <peter1138> 1138 BC, maybe?
20:17:04  *** Vikthor [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:17:55  *** Vikthor [] has joined #openttd
20:23:15  <ln-> wtf, is there some fee that foreign cars or buses need to pay in Germany?
20:23:27  <Tim> no
20:23:32  <Tim> only lkws
20:23:41  <Tim> buses might be though...
20:23:52  <lobster> alright, anyone that's not Eddi|zuHause, i'm having a bit of trouble applying advanced signals to terminus stations
20:23:54  <frosch123> only trucks
20:24:20  <lobster> is it not a one way on entry, two-way at the station lines itself?
20:24:24  <ln-> i was told a finnish bus was charged ~200 euros by a Zoll person who stopped the bus near LÃŒbeck.
20:25:50  *** mikl [] has joined #openttd
20:26:02  <Eddi|zuHause> lobster: wtf is so hard to understand about "screenshot or savegame"?
20:26:43  <Bjarni> Eddi|zuHause: well, you need to figure out how to generate a file and then you need to put it online
20:28:07  <lobster> Eddi|zuHause: wtf is so hard about simply stating "terminus stations need signal x on entry and signal y in front of the station itself"?
20:28:27  <lobster> a lot less hard than screenshotting, uploading and then asking
20:28:37  <lobster> but hey, i'll seek for some advice somewhere else
20:28:43  <frosch123> lobster: advanced one way signal on entry, no signals at station, no signal at exit
20:28:54  *** nicfer [~Administr@] has joined #openttd
20:28:57  <nicfer> hi
20:29:13  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd so love a /kick command right now... but an /ignore must suffice...
20:29:16  <nicfer> I've tried the nintendo ds port with an emulator and it crashed
20:29:23  <nicfer> how does it work?
20:29:40  <lobster> thanks, frosch123
20:30:23  <Eddi|zuHause> i know... it's my fault...
20:30:32  <Eddi|zuHause> i care too much about people having a problem
20:32:51  <frosch123> <- could become my favorite wiki page
20:33:20  <frosch123> in 1740 in france a cow was judged and hanged for wizardry...
20:34:52  <Bjarni> well
20:35:13  <Bjarni> we saw in Diablo 2 that cows can be rather mean to human beings
20:37:20  <TinoDidriksen> Hanging a fully grown cow...the scaffolding for that would have to be pretty well built.
20:37:36  <frosch123> that's what I thought :)
20:37:54  <nicfer> is possible to test nds' openttd in a emulator?
20:39:26  <Eddi|zuHause> nicfer: it's pretty safe to assume that nobody here ever tried that
20:39:29  <Bjarni> nicfer: too bad the porter is offline at the moment and nobody else can answer your question
20:39:50  <Bjarni> you could post this question on the forum in the DS thread
20:40:37  <Bjarni>  <Eddi|zuHause> nicfer: it's pretty safe to assume that nobody here ever tried that <-- yeah... my thought was "there is an emulator... maybe I should check it out" :D
20:41:06  <nicfer> there are various of them
20:41:27  <TinoDidriksen> Can always give it a shot yourself, and report back whether it worked...
20:41:31  <nicfer> someones paid, others free
20:46:55  *** Tim [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20:47:58  *** Tim [] has joined #openttd
20:48:22  <Bjarni> why pay for software when you can get something equally good for free?
20:49:01  *** De_Ghosty [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20:52:34  *** Aylomen [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:57:33  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truebrain * r14372 /branches/noai/ (21 files in 3 dirs): [NoAI] -Add: added AIRail and friends (Yexo)
20:58:47  *** KurtKraut [] has joined #openttd
21:00:35  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truebrain * r14373 /branches/noai/src/train_cmd.cpp: [NoAI] -Remove: no longer need for braindead AI only code (Yexo)
21:01:06  <Eddi|zuHause> quickly hide massive feature under spam...
21:01:09  <Eddi|zuHause> new approach ;(
21:01:11  <Eddi|zuHause> ;)
21:01:34  *** mikl [] has quit [Quit: Leaving...]
21:01:58  <TrueBrain> at least I use commit messages which state what it does :p
21:02:41  <Eddi|zuHause> well, "implement feature XY callback AB" does also state what it does :p
21:02:42  <frosch123> -Codechange: Enable feature 00 for AIs. :)
21:03:21  <Eddi|zuHause> iirc the tram commit message was of that style ;)
21:03:32  *** roboboy [] has joined #openttd
21:05:16  *** Mortal [] has quit [Quit: [FATAL] Client error: Memory leak - More RAM needed. More! More! More!]
21:06:39  *** venus214 [] has quit []
21:10:39  *** frosch123 [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
21:11:06  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truebrain * r14374 /branches/noai/projects/ (openttd_vs80.vcproj openttd_vs90.vcproj): [NoAI] -Fix r14372: forget to update MSVC project files (blabla, always the same :p)
21:14:14  *** roboboy [] has quit [Quit: ajax IRC Client]
21:20:59  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truebrain * r14375 /branches/noai/src/train_cmd.cpp: [NoAI] -Fix r14373: remove the now unused variable too ;)
21:21:04  <peter1138> Hmm, I never did finish the callbacks for AIs...
21:21:23  <peter1138> Quite possibly it doesn't make sense for NoAI...
21:21:25  <TrueBrain> which callbacks?
21:21:32  *** Zephyris [~Zephyris@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:21:38  <TrueBrain> that is why I ask ;)
21:21:51  <peter1138> Callbacks that say what vehicles to buy, and what stations to place.
21:22:14  <peter1138> (NewGRF station type, that is. Just graphical)
21:22:25  <TrueBrain> makes little sense for NoAI
21:22:29  <TrueBrain> AIs can query them self :)
21:22:49  <peter1138> AIs don't know what station looks good for freight, though ;)
21:22:59  <peter1138> That's basically what that does.
21:23:11  <peter1138> For vehicles... yeah, they can choose anyway.
21:23:15  <TrueBrain> hehe
21:23:16  <TrueBrain> silly :)
21:24:05  <peter1138> There are other things but I can't remember what :p
21:27:01  *** roboboy [] has joined #openttd
21:27:09  *** Syyn [] has joined #openttd
21:28:09  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd so love to program an AI, but i don't have that kind of time...
21:30:20  *** daspork [] has joined #openttd
21:30:24  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... when a filename doesn't fit on a widescreen monitor (with moderate font size), something probably got out of hand :p
21:30:34  *** Phoenix_the_II [] has joined #openttd
21:33:33  *** Zephyris [~Zephyris@] has joined #openttd
21:39:07  *** KillaloT [] has quit [Quit:  HydraIRC -> <- IRC with a difference]
21:40:15  *** Zephyris [~Zephyris@] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.1/2008070208]]
21:41:52  *** Brianetta [] has joined #openttd
21:47:19  *** roboboy [] has quit [Quit: ajax IRC Client]
21:53:29  *** Frostregen [] has quit [Quit: und weg]
21:53:53  <Brianetta> Sacro: You about?
21:54:01  *** Tim [] has left #openttd []
21:57:55  <Kasceh> An idea for you guys, dont know how valid it is though: Allow GRFs to be downloaded from a server
21:59:24  <Eddi|zuHause> how... original...
21:59:44  <Eddi|zuHause> like... not 70 other people have suggestes this before you
22:00:01  <Sacro> Brianetta: yeah
22:00:13  <Kasceh> Lol
22:00:28  <Brianetta> Sacro: Next weekend I'm off to the Lakes for a week
22:00:29  <Kasceh> Easier to say "its been suggested before" than to go off on one and be an ass about it
22:00:35  <Sacro> Brianetta: ooh how lovely
22:00:43  <Brianetta> Think you're up to looking after the server?
22:01:01  <Sacro> Errm...
22:01:02  <Eddi|zuHause> "but no party!"
22:01:02  <Sacro> possibly :)
22:01:08  <Sacro> I couldn't find the rcon password
22:01:13  <Sacro> oh
22:01:18  <Sacro> tis in the openttd.cfg isn't i
22:01:32  *** Mark [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
22:01:59  <Brianetta> yes (:
22:02:10  <Brianetta> gtg; business calls
22:03:21  <Sacro> hehe
22:04:24  <Eddi|zuHause> on sundays at midnight?
22:04:31  <Eddi|zuHause> you have strange office hours :p
22:15:20  *** TinoM [] has quit [Quit: Verlassend]
22:18:49  <nicfer> is there any ttdpatch guide to do an grf that doesn't changes sprites?
22:19:53  <nicfer> well, a grf file that changes industries and cargos characteristics
22:21:12  *** letto [~letto@] has joined #openttd
22:21:19  *** Kasceh [] has quit []
22:26:06  *** bleepy [] has quit [Quit: Be annoying on USENET #82: Post to soc.culture.women asking "what's your favorite brand of oven mitt, little ladies?"]
22:26:22  *** KritiK [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
22:26:48  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, it's called NewGraphicsSpecs, on the ttdpatch wiki.
22:27:30  <Eddi|zuHause> specifically action 0 and varaction 2 for industries
22:27:44  <nicfer> it doesn't mention what to do if you don't plan including a pcx file
22:29:52  <Eddi|zuHause> just leave the pcx file out?
22:30:12  <nicfer> what actions are out?
22:30:20  <Eddi|zuHause> no actions...
22:30:32  <Eddi|zuHause> actions per definition have nothing to do with pcx files
22:30:42  <Eddi|zuHause> "real sprites" have to do with pcx files
22:34:32  *** ecke [~ecke@] has quit [Quit: ecke]
22:36:28  *** bleepy [] has joined #openttd
22:39:17  *** Wezz6400 [] has quit [Quit: Caught sigterm, terminating...]
22:43:11  *** Zahl [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
22:43:27  *** Zahl [] has joined #openttd
22:45:57  *** welshdragon [~vista@] has joined #openttd
22:47:33  *** caladan [] has joined #openttd
22:48:06  <caladan> Hi, are there any RSS feeds available on the new website?
22:51:20  <nicfer> I'm having troubles with Action 1 for the cargos part
22:52:30  <nicfer> how many sets should I assign to it?
22:54:03  <FauxFaux> caladan: You mean, apart from the one that you get from the home page?
22:54:58  <nicfer> also, are cargos assigned to a certain climate?
22:55:04  <caladan> FauxFaux: well, i dont receive them since monday or something?
22:55:57  <caladan> i mean those from main page, there was address:
22:56:02  <caladan> and now it doesnt work
22:56:14  <caladan> cause homepage changed
22:56:37  <caladan> were the feeds moved somewhere or removed?
22:57:00  <FauxFaux> caladan: Do yo not get an rss icon in your browser? Or does your browser suck?
22:58:07  <caladan> yup, it's there
22:58:14  <caladan> i was looking for a direct link
22:58:18  <caladan> thanks
22:58:21  <FauxFaux> ...
22:58:45  <FauxFaux> Actually, the feeds look like crap in Opera's rss reader, full of html.
22:58:55  <caladan> i use Akregator
23:00:46  <caladan> i used to look for direct links, not to use firefox icon appearing at address bar, sorry :D
23:01:58  <caladan> k, thx for help, bye
23:01:59  *** caladan [] has quit [Quit: leaving]
23:02:31  <FauxFaux> TrueBrain: a) Both the rss feeds are full of (escaped) html so look like ass in every aggregator I can find, and b) visiting gets you to in at least two browsers.
23:05:17  <FauxFaux> And still lags IE quite a bit. :p
23:07:14  *** elmex [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
23:11:32  *** Yeggstry [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
23:15:12  *** Chrill [] has quit []
23:18:32  *** Bjarni [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
23:21:09  *** Zahl [] has quit [Quit: (~_~]"]
23:26:48  *** Progman [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
23:38:29  *** nicfer [~Administr@] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
23:38:58  *** Vikthor [] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
23:39:00  *** juicetyve [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
23:50:47  *** helb [~helb@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:54:59  *** Zorni [] has joined #openttd
23:55:20  *** helb [~helb@] has joined #openttd
23:59:54  *** helb_ [~helb@] has joined #openttd

Powered by YARRSTE version: svn-trunk