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00:00:11 <Bjarni> just like Hong Kong uses 1432 mm for some reason 00:00:21 <Bjarni> I think all their trains uses 1435 mm though 00:00:51 <Bjarni> I never figured out why they use a gauge that's 3 mm smaller than the standard 00:00:56 *** NukeBuster [~NukeBuste@80.101.115.82] has quit [Quit: http://www.interplay.com/] 00:01:05 <ln-> 1524 mm is exactly 60 inch. 00:02:36 <Bjarni> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/12/Dual_gauge_Africa_4_rail_3_gauge.svg <-- not deciding on a gauge can cause problems 00:11:47 <Eddi|zuHause> well, germany also has a lot of different gauges 00:12:21 <Eddi|zuHause> but mostly those are isolated narrow gauge systems 00:12:28 <Eddi|zuHause> especially trams 00:14:02 <Bjarni> trams benefit from narrow gauge because the wider the gauge the wider the curves has to be 00:14:28 <Bjarni> but wide gauge gives increased stability, which is useful at high speed 00:14:48 <Bjarni> so it's a known tradeoff and it's a damn expensive one to alter 00:15:25 *** roboboy [3aad2910@webchat.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 00:16:16 <Eddi|zuHause> and then there are at least as many systems of power supply ;) 00:17:25 <Eddi|zuHause> our tram has 1000mm, and 600V DC, i think 00:17:39 <Bjarni> EU wants to make 25 kV, 50 Hz a standard in all countries 00:17:49 <Bjarni> it's however unsuitable for trams 00:18:01 <Bjarni> for safety reasons 00:18:36 <Eddi|zuHause> i have my doubts that such an attempt of overregulation will work out... 00:19:01 <Bjarni> NL is attempting to adapt 00:19:15 <Bjarni> but they need to do something anyway since they use 1500 V DC 00:19:33 <Bjarni> which means the freight trains draws 4 kA from the catenary 00:20:09 <Eddi|zuHause> i mean it's not only that a big country like germany would have to change their whole infrastructure 00:20:42 <Eddi|zuHause> there are also suburban railways that use DC via 3rd rail and stuff 00:21:15 <Eddi|zuHause> or subways, which are generally unsuited for catenary 00:21:21 <Bjarni> the suburban lines in Copenhagen use 1500 V DC 00:21:30 <Bjarni> they just replaced all the trains 00:22:07 <Bjarni> but decided not to switch to 25 kV even though several people though it should be done because it was a "now or never" situation 00:22:17 <Bjarni> and 25 kV AC is far better 00:23:57 <ln-> what's wrong with 25 kV for trams? 00:24:20 <Bjarni> lorries hitting the catenary and such 00:24:46 <Bjarni> the safety distance is actually 1,75 meters for ungrounded stuff 00:25:19 <Bjarni> also in case it falls down, then you are screwed with this voltage on the street 00:25:31 <ln-> 1500 V is a-ok? 00:26:15 <Bjarni> at least it will not risk frying people up to 5 meters away from the place where it falls down 00:27:00 *** Yeggstry [~mind@cpc1-rdng14-0-0-cust946.winn.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:27:50 <ln-> k 00:27:55 <Eddi|zuHause> if the security measures are any kind of good, the circuit breaker should kick in before the wire touches the ground 00:28:17 *** reldred|gone is now known as reldred 00:28:26 <ln-> reldred: no away nicks 00:28:32 <Bjarni> are you willing to guarantee that it will work? 00:28:41 <Eddi|zuHause> no 00:28:44 <Bjarni> and can you proof that it will not kill anybody? 00:29:38 <Eddi|zuHause> i also think it isn't worth switching power supply just for the sake of switching power supply 00:29:39 <ln-> *prove 00:30:23 <Bjarni> I don't think changing the voltage for trams will affect international railroad operations 00:31:00 <Eddi|zuHause> unless you throw out all existing equipment at the same time, you'd have a very long transition period where you can only buy dual voltage vehicles 00:31:19 <Bjarni> the idea is that say you send a freight train from Denmark to NL then it has to be diesel/have a locomotive that can deal with 1,5,15k and 25k voltage or switch locomotive 00:32:04 <Bjarni> <Eddi|zuHause> unless you throw out all existing equipment at the same time, you'd have a very long transition period where you can only buy dual voltage vehicles <-- USA did the latter and it worked out just fine 00:32:15 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think freight trains have a real issue there, they have lots of standing time anyway 00:32:36 <Bjarni> that's another issue that needs solving 00:32:53 <Eddi|zuHause> USA have a totally underdeveloped electric network anyway 00:32:58 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B76D3D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 00:33:10 <Bjarni> Danish TV once put a GPS transmitter in a container, put it on a freight car and sent it to Italy. It ended up having an average speed of 16 km/h 00:33:26 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B7591C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 00:33:57 <Bjarni> <Eddi|zuHause> USA have a totally underdeveloped electric network anyway <-- not in the north east. They switched power system in the Pennsylvania area where they actually use electric trains on a rather large scale 00:35:03 *** [demi]Xerres [~Mewes@d-206-53-71-234.cpe.metrocast.net] has joined #openttd 00:35:04 *** Xerres [~Mewes@d-206-53-71-234.cpe.metrocast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:35:12 <reldred> ln-: Thankyou for your suggestion, it has been taken on board, and promptly dismissed. I'm not changing a standing IRC configuration that I've had for years, for one person in one channel who appears to be backseat moderating. :). 00:36:05 <Bjarni> reldred: will it be any better if I tell you it's channel rules? 00:36:19 <Eddi|zuHause> reldred: for the sake of argument, you should have said that in a non-english language :p 00:36:34 <reldred> Bjarni: From you it would, you've got the almighty before your name. 00:36:53 <reldred> Damnit, silly keyboard 00:36:59 <reldred> *almighty @ before your name 00:37:01 <Bjarni> ok, then I say it... it's channel rules 00:37:11 <reldred> Gotcha. Later folks. 00:37:15 *** reldred [aegir@creep.bur.st] has left #openttd [] 00:37:15 <Bjarni> hmm 00:37:29 <Bjarni> where is Sao Tome and Principe? 00:37:43 <Eddi|zuHause> before the coast of africa 00:37:56 <Eddi|zuHause> near the equator, i think 00:37:57 <ln-> probably some small island(s) that earn money by selling domain names. 00:38:22 <Bjarni> oh those 00:38:38 *** Frostregen [~sucks@dslb-084-058-142-068.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 00:44:55 <ln-> niue (.nu) is basically in sweden. 00:45:54 <Bjarni> Niue (pronounced /niËËÊuËeɪ/, /ËnjuËeɪ/ in English) is an island nation located in the South Pacific Ocean. <-- from wikipedia 00:46:09 <Bjarni> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niue 00:46:33 <Bjarni> http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niue <-- or maybe you prefer this one ;) 00:47:02 <murray> http://nu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niue 00:48:22 <Bjarni> very funny :) 00:48:58 <Bjarni> I just clicked on a lot of different languages to tell differences 00:49:13 <Bjarni> and noticed some interesting facts 00:49:21 <Bjarni> population is not the same on all pages 00:49:47 <Bjarni> the landsize is 260km² 00:50:21 <Bjarni> yet the number of people for each km² is unknown (with the population known) o_O 00:52:16 <Bjarni> the correct density is 8,29 people/km² (this is the high number of population) 00:52:30 <Bjarni> I think they have room for more people 00:53:27 <ln-> except it doesn't say how many km² is habitable. 00:53:44 <Bjarni> good point 00:55:00 <ln-> and with an island that is barely 10 km wide, you gotta think where to dump the garbage produced by more people. (well there's a lot of ocean in every direction.) 00:55:10 <Bjarni> the population density for NL (for comparison) is 393/km² 00:56:21 *** Gekz [~brendan@123-243-206-102.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:56:51 <ln-> no wonder TB and DV get so easily pissed off. 00:57:40 <Bjarni> 0.027/km² <-- looks like Greenland can house a whole lot more people 00:57:44 <Bjarni> (or maybe not) 00:58:04 <Bjarni> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population_density 01:00:05 <Bjarni> Taiwan (Republic of China) <-- isn't that kind of political to write it like that? 01:01:07 <Bjarni> China got it from Japan after WW2 and they declared independent from China after 4 years 01:01:47 <ln-> China doesn't recognize their independence. 01:01:54 *** Gekz [~brendan@123-243-206-102.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #openttd 01:02:07 *** Gekz [~brendan@123-243-206-102.static.tpgi.com.au] has left #openttd [] 01:02:13 *** Gekz [~brendan@123-243-206-102.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #openttd 01:02:16 <Bjarni> I know 01:02:34 <Bjarni> but China claims to own Nepal and Japan as well 01:03:04 <ln-> I doubt that. 01:03:06 <Bjarni> Chinese children are taught in school that Japan is a rebellious Chinese province 01:03:29 <ln-> Do you have a reference? 01:03:38 <Bjarni> not offhand 01:03:47 <Bjarni> I read it like a year or two ago 01:05:07 <Bjarni> however Japan has been under their own government in all of the recorded history (which is quite a long time in Asia) except when USA took control right after WW2 01:05:43 <Bjarni> the history is full of attempts of Asian mainland attacking Japan but it never worked out 01:07:01 <ln-> like denmark 01:07:03 <Bjarni> the word kamikaze was first used about such an attack. The Mongols sailed towards Japan with their army and kamikaze (godly wind) appeared and sank all the ships 01:07:40 <Bjarni> Japan believed that the typhoon was sent by a god to protect Japan 01:10:33 <ln-> I've been reading a book that says China was the most advanced country with sea exploration back in the... 1400's or so. 01:11:05 <Bjarni> that's not unlikely 01:11:36 <ln-> had ships that were a lot bigger than e.g. Santa Maria, Nina, and Pinta were, and had a compass. 01:11:36 <Bjarni> they were really advanced compared to the rest of the world for a really long time 01:12:07 <Bjarni> they started drilling for oil 1700 years ago (or something like that). They used it for oil lamps 01:16:06 <ln-> i wonder what would have happened if they had found america first 01:20:18 <Bjarni> the same as happened when the Vikings found America 01:20:39 <Bjarni> nothing that matters today 01:22:35 <Bjarni> when the Europeans explored what would later be Canada they found an Indian tribe of white people, who didn't speak the same language as the other tribes in the area and they built houses like Scandinavians used to built them (read: totally different from all other tribes) 01:23:32 <ln-> this speculation is from the book mentioned above; what if the chinese had introduced gunpowder to indians before europeans arrived? 01:23:34 <Bjarni> they were extinct by diseases bought by the Europeans before DNA tests were invented though so we can only guess 01:23:41 *** grumbel [~grumbel@i577B9BC6.versanet.de] has quit [Quit: Client exiting] 01:24:09 <Bjarni> <ln-> this speculation is from the book mentioned above; what if the chinese had introduced gunpowder to indians before europeans arrived? <-- that would have been interesting 01:24:52 <Bjarni> or to keep it simple: Chu-ko-nu 01:24:59 <Bjarni> which is a repeating crossbow 01:25:06 <Bjarni> it can fire 10 bolts in 15 sec 01:25:15 <Bjarni> China had that one for 2000 years 01:25:31 <Bjarni> maybe 2500 years 01:25:54 <Bjarni> it's unknown who invented it and when... we only know the era where it showed up 01:27:04 <Bjarni> if the Indians have had that one when they started fighting the Europeans, then the Europeans would have been slaughtered 01:27:42 <Bjarni> maybe it wasn't as powerful as the gun, but with that rate of firing... 01:28:37 <Bjarni> but.... China would have found California while Columbus found the West Indian isles 01:29:13 <Bjarni> it's likely that the Chinese wouldn't have seen much east of the Rocky Mountains before the Europeans arrived 01:31:19 <Bjarni> but it just tells me that when something great is being discovered, it's because it's the natural step from what the world had at that time 01:31:42 <Bjarni> technology had reached a state where ocean travelling was possible 01:31:54 <Bjarni> if Columbus had sunk, then somebody else would have tried 01:34:02 <ln-> what if the indians had found europe... 01:35:08 <Bjarni> then they would have been captured on arrival 01:35:44 *** Fuco [~dota.keys@147.251.215.232] has quit [Quit: Quit] 01:35:45 <ln-> probably 01:35:58 <Bjarni> considering how people in power in the middle age treated their own and enemy people, then they wouldn't have been nice to Indians 01:36:42 <Bjarni> this is why the settlers was attacked by Indians. Indians ended up being treated like people in Europe was treated 01:37:15 <Bjarni> the Indians didn't accept it and took up arms while normal people in Europe couldn't do anything about it 01:39:27 <Bjarni> btw speaking of first encounters. When Livingstone sailed on the Nile, he had problems finding the local population because the boats were spotted and the locals thought "there is a group of slavers" 01:39:37 <Bjarni> "and they have captured a group of white people" 01:40:01 <Bjarni> meaning their hired help (local black people) were presumed to be slavers 01:40:31 <Bjarni> naturally people who saw this kept far away to avoid capture 01:42:23 <ln-> slavery... good old times 01:44:45 *** Sacro_ [~Ben@adsl-87-102-39-137.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd 01:46:40 *** teggigi [~asd@ti0056a340-dhcp0311.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:51:34 *** Sacro [~Ben@adsl-87-102-39-137.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:52:03 <ln-> i guess this short period of human rights and democracy will eventually end. 01:54:09 *** Frostregen [~sucks@dslb-084-058-142-068.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: und weg] 01:59:48 <Bjarni> it's ending right now 02:00:47 <Bjarni> because the media and judges talks about human rights for people arrested for terrorism rather than what they have done/planned to do 02:01:03 <Bjarni> that's just one example 02:01:58 <Bjarni> but I'm pretty sure this era will be over in say 50 years 02:03:24 <Bjarni> the only way to protect it is actually to make the safety of the state more important than the human rights of whoever threatens the state 02:04:07 <Bjarni> the same goes for safety of the population 02:05:22 <Bjarni> like the poisoned milk case in China. They can charge the people behind it with a death sentence for poisoning food while here we will give them some years of prison if we can prove that they were aware that it would kill people 02:07:11 <Bjarni> anyway time for bed 02:07:12 *** Bjarni [~Bjarni@0x50a46ad5.virnxx14.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:07:15 *** RPGprayer [rpg@213-66-121-29-no70.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #openttd 02:07:27 <RPGprayer> Morning 02:08:12 <ln-> not 02:08:22 <RPGprayer> 4 in the morning here :P 02:08:39 <ln-> 5 in the night here 02:08:44 <RPGprayer> haha 02:11:54 <RPGprayer> I've got a question: I haven't really fiddled around anything with applying patches on OTTD and such, but is it possible to use more than one patch and compile? like if i want daylength patch, rentable railway tracks, etc.? 02:12:03 *** welshdragon [~vista@host86-145-214-136.range86-145.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:12:49 <ln-> it is possible, BUT 02:13:34 <ln-> if those patches happen to patch the same areas of same files, then they'll conflict with each other and need to be applied manually (if possible). 02:13:46 <RPGprayer> ah, yes 02:14:39 <RPGprayer> that's annoying, since i'll basically have something i'd like to use missing :) 03:00:45 *** TinoM| [~Tino@i59F5D46E.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 03:00:45 *** elmex [~elmex@e180066032.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:02:48 *** elmex [~elmex@e180064054.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #openttd 03:07:52 *** TinoM [~Tino@i59F5DA0B.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 03:23:46 *** glx [glx@bny93-6-82-245-156-124.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: bye] 04:21:34 *** Sacro [~Ben@adsl-87-102-39-137.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd 04:28:07 *** Sacro_ [~Ben@adsl-87-102-39-137.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 04:35:07 *** roboboy [3aad2910@webchat.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 04:41:55 *** letto [~letto@86.120.69.155] has joined #openttd 05:23:36 *** Sacro [~Ben@adsl-87-102-39-137.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:42:13 *** Doorslammer [Doorslamme@PIPP-p-203-54-229-44.prem.tmns.net.au] has joined #openttd 05:56:25 *** Singaporekid [~notme@cm210.epsilon120.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #openttd 06:45:17 *** mikl [~mikl@0x57372ee2.mrbnqu1.static.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #openttd 07:04:02 *** jpm [pekka@kone.suomen4g.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:04:04 *** jpm [pekka@kone.suomen4g.fi] has joined #openttd 07:08:53 *** Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 07:20:15 *** TinoM| [~Tino@i59F5D46E.versanet.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 07:20:34 *** TinoM [~Tino@i59F5D46E.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 08:13:47 *** Tekky [~chatzilla@p5493DB7A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 08:21:00 *** mikl [~mikl@0x57372ee2.mrbnqu1.static.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 08:25:35 *** mikl [~mikl@0x57372ee2.mrbnqu1.static.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #openttd 08:28:11 *** yorick [~Yorick@s55924da0.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #openttd 08:33:04 <yorick> the console needs linebreaks 08:37:38 *** Celestar [~Jadzia_Da@mnch-5d874a5a.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #openttd 08:37:41 *** mode/#openttd [+o Celestar] by ChanServ 08:37:45 <Celestar> morning 08:37:52 <yorick> morning 08:40:14 *** [com]buster [~eternal@cust-03-55bf402e.adsl.scarlet.nl] has joined #openttd 08:40:41 <Tekky> hi :) 08:40:44 *** roboboy [3aad2910@webchat.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 08:40:48 <Eddi|zuHause> the console needs a lot of things.. 08:41:13 <yorick> the console needs python! 08:41:26 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590fc1ab.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #openttd 08:41:34 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: like what? 08:42:13 <Eddi|zuHause> 10:33] <yorick> the console needs linebreaks 08:42:15 <Tekky> signals need python, too :) I want programmable signals :) 08:42:29 <Celestar> Rubidium: I've tried moving things around so that I don't need to include <map> in cargopacket.h but it doesn't change the compile time. This is basically due to the fact that we already have <list> included in cargopacket.h, and there's no way around that. 08:42:34 <Celestar> Tekky: I don't agree :P 08:42:36 <yorick> Tekky: that's harder than the console 08:42:45 <yorick> I do 08:42:56 <Celestar> what does one need programmable signals for? 08:43:09 <Tekky> priority lines, for example. 08:43:10 <yorick> for having signals that are programmable 08:43:35 <Tekky> in order to give a certain line priority over another line. 08:43:43 <Eddi|zuHause> waypoints on tile edges, custom pathfinder penalties based on orders and waypoints 08:43:55 <Eddi|zuHause> programmable signals are useless 08:44:09 <Tekky> however, programmable signals are more meaningful with non-YAPP signals. 08:45:16 <Tekky> with YAPP, the signal state (whether it is green or red) is irrelevant. So programmable YAPP signals would have to work with reservation states as variables instead of signal states. 08:45:26 <Tekky> which would be harder to implement. 08:45:33 *** Aylomen [~a@DSL01.83.171.158.142.ip-pool.NEFkom.net] has joined #openttd 08:46:54 <Celestar> first thing we need imho is a proper reservation of the braking distance. 08:47:11 <Celestar> so that the train would NEVER come to an abrupt halt. 08:47:20 <Celestar> _never_ 08:47:26 <yorick> Celestar: I recommend you to put "Celestar" into your signature so you don't have to put it under each of your posts manually ;) 08:47:56 <Celestar> yorick: heh. It's just a habit :P 08:48:26 <yorick> sometimes your name is longer than the post itself 08:48:32 <Celestar> yeah 08:48:33 <Celestar> :P 08:49:03 <Eddi|zuHause> gnah, i need to pay better attention what the nick actually is, not just its colour... else i start attributing sentences to wrong persons... 08:49:14 <Tekky> currently, the only way to implement priority lines is this way, which is an ugly hack: http://wiki.openttd.org/index.php/Advanced_Main_Line_Depot 08:49:31 * Celestar wonders why priority lines are needed. 08:50:02 <Celestar> if the line is really busy, I just separate: long distance pax trains, regional pax trains, freight trains. 08:50:08 <Celestar> and then use waypoints 08:50:44 <Tekky> Celestar: Yes, I agree that a train should always reserve inside its braking distance. 08:51:15 <Tekky> Celestar: I think that is also the way trains behave in locomotion. 08:51:24 <Eddi|zuHause> enforcing braking distance will at least all the 2-tile-signal layouts :p 08:51:33 <Eddi|zuHause> *break 08:51:46 <Tekky> yep, that's certainly a good thing :) 08:51:59 <Tekky> but I don't understand why it should break them? 08:52:32 <Eddi|zuHause> well, at least render them useless 08:53:54 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: they would still work, but trains could no longer get closer than braking distance + skid distance + safety distance :-) 08:54:11 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: then again, from 1980 on, we could have signal-less trunk routes like IRL (= 08:54:26 <Eddi|zuHause> well, if you siply put signals that close, it would enforce a slow maximum speed on the line 08:54:43 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: reservation would span multiple signals then (= 08:54:53 <Alberth> Yellow signals! 08:55:22 <Celestar> Alberth: they would be possible then as well 08:55:29 <Eddi|zuHause> i tried to make yapp-combo signals, but i got in trouble with adding the third signal state 08:55:50 <Celestar> green = can pass this and next signal, yellow = can pass this signal but not next, red = cannot pass this signal. 08:56:03 <Eddi|zuHause> exactly 08:56:26 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: like Ks ;) 08:56:47 <Tekky> I think signals should show yellow only for graphical feedback, but a yellow signal should have no effect on gameplay. I have stated my reasons for this in this forum post: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=720327#p720327 08:56:54 <Eddi|zuHause> i could either make signals red/green (normal) or i could make them yellow/green (advance), but not red/yellow/green (combo) 08:57:22 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: apparently, Erfurt-Leipzig will be Germany's first track without signals (= 08:58:42 <Eddi|zuHause> Tekky: well, the main advantage of yellow signals is that fast trains (almost) automatically adjust to the slower speed of the train ahead, and don't come to a full stop at every signal 08:59:01 <Eddi|zuHause> which actually increases the capacity of a mixed line 08:59:17 <Celestar> Tekky: I'm not suggesting adding an advance-signal-type. I suggest making the normal signals real combo signals (normal + advance). Like they are these days. 08:59:37 *** mikl [~mikl@0x57372ee2.mrbnqu1.static.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:59:58 <Eddi|zuHause> well, there might be situations where you do NOT want combo signals 09:00:11 <Eddi|zuHause> like at an entrance to a single track section 09:00:31 <Celestar> yeah, but we can think about those later (= 09:00:32 <Tekky> Celestar: Are you proposing that the trains actually react to yellow signals or that they are merely graphical feedback for the player, showing that the train will pass the signal with reduced speed? The latter is the behavior of Locomotion. 09:00:54 <Celestar> Tekky: I rather suggest the Lomo way. 09:01:09 <Celestar> Tekky: because signalling is basically the only thing that Lomo got right :-P 09:01:14 <Tekky> hehe 09:01:19 <Eddi|zuHause> well, "reduce speed" IS an effect on gameplay 09:01:51 <Tekky> yes, but this speed reduction is caused by the red signal and NOT by the yellow signal in Locomotion. The yellow signal is only graphical feedback for the player. 09:02:18 <Tekky> i.e. it is caused by approaching a red signal and NOT by passing a yellow signal. 09:02:47 <Eddi|zuHause> i can't imagine how you would properly enforce that 09:02:58 <Tekky> the same way as in Locomotion :) 09:04:02 <Tekky> I think Locomotion shows signals as yellow also if the train is about to brake for the next red signal, even if the train does not go with reduced speed when approaching the signal. 09:04:22 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: the question is, if yellow signals slow down the train, how can we set the speed limit? 09:04:47 <Eddi|zuHause> to phrase this clearly: you would a) need every train to keep track about how many tiles it has reserved ahead, b) try to reserve ahead when this number of tiles goes below x, c) check if there are any signals on this path 09:04:56 <Celestar> TrueBrain: could you please rerun the compile farm on cargodest, thanks. 09:05:18 <Tekky> the speed limit should always be according to the distance to the next red signal and be independent of whether a yellow signal is passed. 09:05:37 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't like this approach 09:05:41 <Celestar> heh. maybe we could just set the speed limit according to the distance between two signals (= 09:06:00 <Celestar> so that a train is able to stop between two signals P and Q. 09:06:23 <Eddi|zuHause> exactly. or it must be specifically ordered to reserve X signals ahead 09:06:43 <Celestar> I don't think it is feasible to have the train look ahead more than 2 signals. 09:07:12 <Eddi|zuHause> why? it's just running the PBS reservation routine several times... 09:07:31 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: and slows things down? 09:07:54 <Eddi|zuHause> not anymore than now. because once the track is reserved, nothing has to be done 09:08:07 <Eddi|zuHause> and each time a signal is passed, another reservation round is done 09:08:09 <Tekky> Eddi: So you prefer to force the player to put a distant signal ("Vorsignal") in front of every red signal at braking distance? And if the player doesn't do that and has a long piece of track without signals, the train will be reduced to half speed on the entire piece of track? 09:08:12 <Eddi|zuHause> which is exactly the same work as now 09:08:31 <Celestar> we need to draw this up methinks 09:08:38 <Eddi|zuHause> Tekky: yes. exactly (possibly a difficulty setting) 09:09:40 <frosch123> You could also always reserve the track for two signals, so the first signal would behave as presignal 09:09:51 <Celestar> frosch123: not presignal. advance signal (= 09:10:07 <frosch123> yes, advance :) 09:10:20 <Celestar> let's abolish all non-YAPP signals and work with LZB/ETCS right away? 09:10:44 <frosch123> so when a train passes a signal it starts breaking so it could halt in front of the second signal, when passing the next signal it might accelerate again 09:10:51 <Tekky> Eddi: hmmmm, I'm afraid this will clutter the display too much, if you are forced to place double as many signals...... 09:11:21 <Tekky> well, another question: Should several smaller trains be allowed to form a queue in the same signal block? 09:11:23 <Eddi|zuHause> i had this preliminary study about advance signals together with michi_cc: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/advance3.diff 09:11:48 <Eddi|zuHause> advance signals work (without realistic deceleration) 09:11:52 <Eddi|zuHause> but combo signals don't 09:11:58 <Eddi|zuHause> they need a third signal state 09:12:24 <Celestar> why have signals! :P 09:12:44 <Eddi|zuHause> Celestar: let trains pass through each other! 09:13:02 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: no. 09:13:11 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: use a modern system. ETCS (= 09:13:14 <Tekky> Celestar: Well, you still need a possibility to mark safe waiting locations. But this could be a property of the track, not of signals.... 09:13:30 <Eddi|zuHause> well, they are still technically signals, only they are more advanced 09:13:45 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: no. as I said. Nuremburg-Leipzig will not have signals. 09:13:52 <Eddi|zuHause> Tekky: signals are a property of the track 09:14:10 *** insulfrog [~trainslov@92.21.236.249] has joined #openttd 09:14:30 <peter1138> Celestar, what do you mean by "Oops", regarding the savegame problem? 09:14:42 <Celestar> peter1138: I messed it up a little 09:14:48 <Celestar> peter1138: but I have repaired it meanwhile 09:14:54 <insulfrog> hi 09:14:57 <Celestar> \o insulfrog 09:15:14 <Celestar> hi peter1138 (= 09:15:27 <peter1138> Didn't I say it was messed up a week or so ago? 09:15:46 <Celestar> peter1138: yes. but then I went on a business trip and had no internet access 09:16:07 <Celestar> at least not in my off-hours 09:16:12 <Tekky> by the way, does Mercurial offer a possibility to extract only the latest revision instead of the entire repository, such as the SVN checkout command? The hg clone command copies the entire repository and not only the latest revision. 09:16:14 *** Volley [~worf@84-119-46-6.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #openttd 09:16:37 <peter1138> date: Sun Sep 07 08:48:19 2008 +0100 09:16:37 <peter1138> summary: Fix savegame compatibility with trunk 09:16:38 <peter1138> :o 09:16:56 * Celestar doesn't understand Deutsche Bahn 09:16:57 <peter1138> (But you didn't want it, so it's no "Oops" really, is it?) 09:17:46 <Celestar> peter1138: now that most of the testing in cargodest is done, I see no reason to be able to load older cargodest savegames. So now we're savegame-compatible with trunk. 09:18:47 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: why does the DB build a track for 300km/h, install catenary for 330km/h only to use the track with 250km/h later on? 09:18:48 <Eddi|zuHause> Celestar: i assume you are not the only person with that problem 09:20:12 <Celestar> What's so difficult with just rating and using all the high-speed sections with 300km/h and finally provide customers with reasonable journey times :S 09:22:45 <Tekky> if you get rid of all signals, then you must be able to place 3 types of track: 09:22:47 <Tekky> 1. track that is safe for trains to wait on, if they are facing in one direction 09:22:48 <Tekky> 2. track that is safe for trains to wait on, if they are facing the other direction 09:22:50 <Tekky> 3. track that trains may not wait on, such as junctions 09:23:41 <Celestar> Tekky: I wasn't 100% serious about getting rid of ALL signals (= 09:23:45 <peter1138> Celestar, you missed the CONDNULL in vehicle.cpp 09:24:13 <Tekky> Celestar: Well, if you had been serious, it would have been an interesting suggestion :) 09:24:58 <Celestar> peter1138: what did I miss there? :o 09:26:17 <Celestar> Tekky: well what would be possible is this: Have the two YAPP signal types plus a "yapp block safe waiting point" signal (= 09:26:41 <Celestar> oh it should be 100, right? 09:27:13 <Tekky> Celestar: what do you mean with "block safe"? 09:27:29 <Celestar> Tekky: basically a signal that marks a safe waiting point. 09:27:39 <Celestar> then again, any signal does mark a save waiting point .. 09:27:51 <Tekky> Celestar: Ah, the "safe" refers to "waiting point" and not to "block" :) 09:27:55 <Celestar> yes 09:28:29 <Celestar> but what we could use is a one-way marker for tracks (= 09:29:17 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@d51A43482.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 09:29:24 <Tekky> ah, yes.... I forgot about that :) 09:31:04 <Celestar> so we'd need two signal types: one that signals the entry into a YAPP block, and one that signals the entry into an LZB block. 09:31:48 <peter1138> 102 -> 100 09:32:04 <Tekky> however, defining whether a track is safe for waiting, instead of defining this property for signals, has the advantage that waiting locations could be only declared safe for trains up to a certain length. For example, a signal that is placed 8 tiles behind a junction is only safe for trains up to a length of 16 carriages (=8 tiles). 09:32:21 <Celestar> difference between YAPP block and LZB block being: when entering a YAPP block, the train must be able to go to a SWP, when entering a LZB block, this is not needed. 09:32:38 <Celestar> peter1138: yeah. I realized. thanks. 09:32:54 <Celestar> Tekky: that is a good point 09:33:47 <Tekky> The LZB signalling system also requires safe waiting locations? Deadlocks can also occur with LZB..... 09:34:15 <Tekky> unless you define an LZB block as a one-way piece of track with no switches. 09:34:40 <Celestar> Tekky: for me an LZB block is a one-way piece of track with no joining switches. 09:34:54 <Celestar> separating switches would be possible. 09:35:29 <Celestar> but that's the users problem (= 09:37:05 <Ammler> me is wondering, if Celestar already asked for binaries? 09:39:20 <Celestar> yes 09:39:28 <Celestar> me->shower(); 09:42:59 <Tekky> error C2039: 'shower' : is not a member of 'me' 09:43:29 <yorick> error: can't execute errors 09:45:02 <Tekky> in an LZB block, trains are allowed to queue up directly next to each other, aren't they? 09:45:10 <Tekky> I mean directly after each other? 09:52:14 <FauxFaux> 21/10:51:58 < FauxFaux> << me->shower(); 09:52:15 <FauxFaux> 21/10:51:58 < geordi> error: 'me' was not declared in this scope 09:53:00 <Ammler> Celestar: is the compiling already sheduled? 09:53:28 <Ammler> (just asking, if we need to compile them self ;-) 09:55:20 <Tekky> I didn't know that Cargodest had its own compile farm. Where can the binary be obtained? 09:56:04 <Rubidium> www.openttd.org/download-cargodest 09:58:12 <Ammler> Rubidium: that is an old build 09:58:37 <Rubidium> it's the most recent build 09:58:43 <Ammler> yes, but old :P 09:59:23 <Ammler> well, we build it self and wait for it... 10:01:48 *** rortom [~rortom@p57B7BA91.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 10:02:40 <Tekky> Rubidium: thx 10:10:34 *** fjb [~frank@p5485DA3F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 10:10:38 <fjb> Hello 10:12:45 <Celestar> Tekky: yes they may queue up directly behind one another, plus a certain safety distance (maybe one tile?) 10:12:51 <Celestar> Ammler: not that I know of 10:14:27 <Tekky> why does the OpenTTD webpage redirect http://www.openttd.org/* to http://www.openttd.org//en/*? What is the point of the double slash? 10:16:17 * Alberth wonders 'How did I ever manage to play OpenTTD without cargodest?' Totally hoplesssly hooked :P 10:16:32 <Alberth> s/hoplessly/hopelessly/ 10:16:47 <Forked> it's a really nice feature 10:17:00 <Forked> one can't really thank Celestar and peter enough for it 10:17:02 <peter1138> Then add shared infrastructure... 10:18:42 <Tekky> Alberth: I mainly played OpenTTD with non-passenger cargo, that's how I managed without cargodest for three years :) 10:18:51 <Alberth> Completely flat land (512x256), put some towns on it. Task: Connect all towns. Brilliant game play!! 10:19:53 <Alberth> Tekky: Yeh, I did that too. Passengers without explicit destinations is just not fun enough 10:21:32 <Celestar> methinks we should merge :> 10:21:46 <Alberth> +1 ! 10:21:57 *** Yeggstry [~mind@cpc1-rdng14-0-0-cust946.winn.cable.ntl.com] has joined #openttd 10:23:13 * Alberth uses cargodest branch as 'trunk' :P 10:25:25 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1F412.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 10:25:38 * peter1138 ponders doing a code review. 10:27:18 <Celestar> peter1138: feel free. 10:28:12 <Rubidium> Celestar: but the todo isn't done yet 10:28:23 <Celestar> Rubidium: not sure want want to do the todo (= 10:33:08 <Rubidium> peter1138: could you translate Celestar's English in something I can understand, like simple English? 10:33:46 <Celestar> Rubidium: not sure we want to do the todo (= 10:33:57 <Rubidium> Celestar: and you might want to take another look at the review I did a few days ago because I didn't see much feedback on that (in the code) 10:34:14 <peter1138> Where is that? 10:34:16 <Celestar> Rubidium: I was on the road, I'm working on some of the stuff (= 10:35:25 <Rubidium> then why do you state that you want to merge? 10:35:49 <Celestar> Rubidium: because I _want_ to :P 10:35:54 <Celestar> not that I'm doing it (= 10:36:41 *** Vikthor [~Vikthor@snat1.spoje.net] has joined #openttd 10:38:43 *** Singaporekid [~notme@cm210.epsilon120.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:39:50 *** insulfrog [~trainslov@92.21.236.249] has left #openttd [] 10:41:53 <ccfreak2k> It would be nice if you could look at a passenger station and see what the "demand" is for passengers to go to some particular town. 10:45:15 *** Belugas [~belugas@216.191.111.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 10:45:15 *** ecke [~ecke@213.195.202.130] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:47:38 *** Belugas [~belugas@216.191.111.226] has joined #openttd 10:47:39 *** mode/#openttd [+o Belugas] by ChanServ 10:48:03 <Celestar> \o Belugas 10:48:54 *** KUDr [KUDr@mazanec1.netbox.cz] has joined #openttd 10:49:08 <Tekky> KUDr is back? 10:49:22 <Tekky> the author of YAPF? 10:49:36 <Celestar> aye 10:49:43 <yorick> aya 10:49:45 <Celestar> and our C++ guru :D 10:50:05 <yorick> and our C++ guru :) 10:50:12 * yorick hides 10:50:31 <Tekky> hi KUDr, haven't seen you for about 9 months :) 10:50:35 <guru3> yarrrrr 10:50:40 *** KritiK [~Maxim@78-106-215-105.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd 10:50:48 * guru3 got highlighted 10:51:34 <Tekky> KUDr: are you aware that PBS is now implemented in OpenTTD, thanks to your YAPF implementation? :) 10:52:00 <Rubidium> Tekky: really thanks too? It does work on more than only YAPF 10:52:30 <Tekky> YAPP also works with NPF? 10:52:40 <Celestar> apparently ... 10:53:10 *** ecke [~ecke@213.195.202.130] has joined #openttd 10:53:18 <Tekky> oh, I thought the main reason for implementing YAPF was in order to enable proper PBS support? 10:53:59 <Rubidium> Tekky: YAPF, NPF and OTP 10:54:15 <Tekky> I remember KUDr writing that YAPF was a necessary prerequisite for making a proper PBS implementation. 10:55:22 <yorick> OTP is gone..NTP is left 10:59:13 <Tekky> I wonder what KUDr had in mind when he made that statement. Maybe he had a PBS implementation in mind that didn't make path reservations on the basis of individual track pieces, but rather whole segments of track.... 11:03:10 <Eddi|zuHause> <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: why does the DB build a track for 300km/h, install catenary for 330km/h only to use the track with 250km/h later on? <- one problem with mixing freight and high speed trains is that total line capacity depends on difference between fastest and slowest speed, so by reducing the max speed, you get higher capacity for the low speed trains 11:04:24 *** Brianetta [~brian@82-69-0-3.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has joined #openttd 11:08:06 <peter1138> Not many desyncs in that game... 11:08:29 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: putting freight trains on a high-speed track is idiotic by design. 11:08:40 <Celestar> peter1138: in what game? 11:09:03 <roboboy> yeah 11:09:13 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: it lowers the capacity, it poses serious design restrictions, it wears the tracks and lowers the comfort for passengers. 11:09:14 <Eddi|zuHause> i have no idea why they do that either, the existing tracks don't disappear 11:11:11 <ln-> people, you live in the wrong country if you need to complain about 250 km/h 11:11:26 <Forked> or rather.. in the right one 11:11:52 <hylje> yay for high speed being 140km/h 11:12:21 <Celestar> ln-: I don't. if we would be able to actually go 250km/h from A to B. 11:12:36 <Celestar> ln-: and not on 20% of the distance from A to B, and the other 80% are 100km/h or below 11:12:45 <Eddi|zuHause> the last train i used went 90km/h on the part that i witnessed 11:13:02 <Celestar> bbl food 11:13:17 <Eddi|zuHause> but it was a local train, with lots of intermediate stops ;) 11:13:47 <peter1138> Celestar: 0.6.2 game on Brianetta's server. 11:14:00 <peter1138> With a low RV limit, and no waypoints... 11:14:01 <Brianetta> (: 11:14:21 <peter1138> I think welshdragon still desynced though... 11:14:33 <ln-> our high speed bullet trains do not even qualify as high speed trains, the max speed being 220 km/h. (which they don't even achieve almost ever, in practice.) 11:15:17 *** jpm [pekka@kone.suomen4g.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:15:22 <hylje> they do get up to 200km/h in some routes 11:15:29 <hylje> namely Hki-Tre, Hki-Lahti 11:17:00 <Eddi|zuHause> you have only trees and lakes, where would you want to go at these speeds anyway? 11:17:02 <ln-> but not the whole route, and in any case schedules are made for slower speeds so they'll just wait on the next station if they happen to go fast. 11:17:10 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@d51A43482.access.telenet.be] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:17:40 <hylje> pendolinos go tikkurila-tampere without stops. total stops between helsinki and tampere is two 11:17:50 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@d51A43482.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 11:18:02 <hylje> but granted they'll just go slower if schedule says so 11:18:24 <hylje> 'ts fun in the commuter trains 11:18:32 <TrueBrain> Celestar: started, takes about 25 minutes 11:19:03 <ln-> we shouldn't also forget that they regularly stop at arbitrary points of the track when the pendolino breaks down. 11:19:30 <ln-> quality work from italy. 11:20:34 <Eddi|zuHause> i can't get used to this name "pendolino"... it sounds more like a commuter train than a high speed train 11:21:08 <ben_goodger> my IT teacher called them "pedalos" 11:22:00 <ln-> Eddi|zuHause: see this educational video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEreh807D9g 11:25:41 *** Chrill [~chrischri@c80-216-96-107.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #openttd 11:25:46 * Chrill prods Brianetta 11:25:51 <hylje> 3-unit pendolinos ha ha 11:26:36 <Brianetta> hi Chrill 11:26:57 <Chrill> would your server make use of a 512x512 scenario utilizing boats a lot? :) 11:27:27 <Brianetta> no 11:27:27 <Chrill> I've rebuilt cities and am going to start fiddling with Industries 11:27:31 <Chrill> waii? 11:27:35 <Brianetta> limit is at 20 ships 11:27:39 <Brianetta> CPU load 11:27:49 <Chrill> well, then, the map size was the major question 11:28:00 <Brianetta> ah 11:28:05 <Chrill> seeing how you, AFAICT, mainly use 256 11:28:07 <Brianetta> that's the area I ususally use 11:28:10 <Chrill> oh 11:28:14 <Brianetta> I use 1024x256 11:28:18 <Chrill> ah 11:28:40 <Chrill> Well, I'll keep on working on this scenario and send you a preview later, k? 11:28:45 <Brianetta> yes (: 11:28:52 <Brianetta> Just started a new game now, so no rush 11:30:21 <Chrill> okay 11:30:30 <Chrill> i noticed it was down recently so I opted for working on my scen :P 11:33:33 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14368 /trunk/src/ (roadveh_cmd.cpp table/roadveh_movement.h): -Fix [FS#1852]: trams jumping when reversing on a single trambit (like caused during road construction reworks) or when (manually) reversing in a corner. 11:34:40 *** tokai [~tokai@p54B81726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:42:34 <Chrill> butt, it gave me way too many industries when i accidently pushed "Many industries" something 11:45:55 *** Doorslammer [Doorslamme@PIPP-p-203-54-229-44.prem.tmns.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:48:00 *** Doorslammer [Doorslamme@PIPP-p-203-54-229-160.prem.tmns.net.au] has joined #openttd 11:52:50 <Chrill> Brianetta, MSN? 11:57:53 <TrueBrain> Celestar: www.openttd.org/download-cargodest 11:58:48 <Brianetta> Chrill: I have MSN, yes 11:58:59 <Brianetta> but I'm not at home 12:00:33 <Chrill> ah 12:00:50 <Chrill> well, im tryin to cleanse some industries still, shall I PM it over TT-forums lateR? 12:01:35 *** letto [~letto@86.120.69.155] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:04:56 <Brianetta> sure 12:08:37 *** juicetyve [~asd@ti0056a340-dhcp0311.bb.online.no] has joined #openttd 12:10:56 <Chrill> sent! 12:14:23 <Ammler> thank you TrueBrain 12:14:49 <TrueBrain> np; OS X failed btw, it doesn't have boost .. and I currently don't have the time to figure out how to feed that to him :p 12:16:40 <Ammler> oh 12:17:14 <Ammler> well, I guess, boost is the final issue for cargodest :-) 12:18:29 *** Fuco [~dota.keys@147.251.215.232] has joined #openttd 12:18:42 <peter1138> I wouldn't say final :p 12:18:56 <TrueBrain> but a clean solution it does require 12:20:35 *** rortom [~rortom@p57B7BA91.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:21:21 *** RPGprayer [rpg@213-66-121-29-no70.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: ( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.2 :: www.regroup-esports.com )] 12:22:00 *** Dred_furst [~Dred_furs@resnet514.bournemouth.ac.uk] has joined #openttd 12:22:43 <peter1138> But it does require a clean solution. 12:23:06 <TrueBrain> require clean solution it does 12:23:12 <peter1138> (but) 12:23:52 <peter1138> It does but a clean solution require. 12:24:00 *** glx [glx@bny93-6-82-245-156-124.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #openttd 12:24:03 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 12:27:05 <TrueBrain> mercurial and merging are two things that don't really combine ... 12:27:19 <TrueBrain> and how now do I get a diff from the latest merge .... 12:27:48 <TrueBrain> ah, figured thatout 12:38:28 *** Gekz [~brendan@123-243-206-102.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:40:51 <Ammler> TrueBrain: that is suprisingly easy. 12:41:19 <TrueBrain> what is? 12:41:23 *** Gekz [~brendan@123-243-206-102.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #openttd 12:41:56 <Ammler> if you mean a svn patch to last merge... 12:42:22 <TrueBrain> Ammler: I meant that it took me a moment to figure out what 'hg' command to give to get the diff since the latest merge 12:42:31 <TrueBrain> but it turned out 'tip' showed me the right revision 12:42:47 <TrueBrain> still, merging remains a pain, as it doesn't show which files are in conflict with 'hg status' or what ever .. 12:43:06 *** Celestar [~Jadzia_Da@mnch-5d874a5a.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:43:11 *** sulai [~Miranda@p5B2B7AE1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 12:45:42 <Tekky> with hg, is there a possibility to checkout an indiviudal revision? hg clone seems to download the entire repository. 12:45:59 <TrueBrain> then run: hg update -r<revision> 12:45:59 *** Wezz6400 [~Wezz6400@145-118-111-36.fttx.bbned.nl] has joined #openttd 12:46:39 <peter1138> Yeah, that's how hg works. You clone the repo then update to the specific revision. 12:46:59 *** lobster_MB [~michielbr@5350C1D1.cable.casema.nl] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 12:47:23 <Tekky> but downloading the enitre repository doubles the size of my download, normally. 12:47:54 *** Brianetta [~brian@82-69-0-3.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has quit [Quit: TschÃŒÃ] 12:48:18 *** Gekz [~brendan@123-243-206-102.static.tpgi.com.au] has left #openttd [] 12:48:25 <TrueBrain> that is only true if the size of the hg doubled from the revision you want, and the 'tip' revision 12:48:27 <TrueBrain> doubtful :p 12:48:31 *** Gekz [~brendan@123-243-206-102.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #openttd 12:49:46 <TrueBrain> lol, the amount of data I receive when I do: 'svn checkout' is more than when I do: 'hg clone' :p 12:49:59 <TrueBrain> (and with hg I receive a bunch more information :p) 12:50:45 <Tekky> oh, is it? I only noticed that hg clone takes a lot more HD space than svn checkout. 12:51:45 <Rubidium> then you might be comparing them wrongly 12:51:51 <TrueBrain> most likely he is 12:52:51 <TrueBrain> $ svn checkout svn://svn.openttd.org/trunk 12:52:52 <TrueBrain> $ du -h trunk 12:52:56 <TrueBrain> 49M trunk 12:53:10 <TrueBrain> $ hg clone http://hg.openttd.org/openttd/trunk.hg 12:53:11 *** roboboy [3aad2910@webchat.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 12:53:16 <TrueBrain> $ du -h trunk.hg/.hg 12:53:19 <TrueBrain> 39M trunk.hg/.hg 12:53:24 <TrueBrain> I see a 10 MiB difference 12:53:53 <Rubidium> that's not a right comparison 12:54:07 <TrueBrain> lol @ Rubidium; yes it is 12:54:15 <TrueBrain> that is the amount of data I received from the external source 12:54:36 <Ammler> Rubidium: I can remember, you said the same about :-) 12:54:39 <TrueBrain> after that my trunk.hg grows to 62M because it makes a working copy for me 12:54:55 <TrueBrain> but that was never any data I received from any remote source 12:54:58 <Rubidium> but svn does that silently 12:55:08 <TrueBrain> SVN received the workout from the external source 12:55:16 <TrueBrain> it doesn't have that data in his .svn 12:55:30 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: run fdupes over trunk 12:55:39 <Rubidium> and be amazed by the number of duplicate files 12:55:48 <TrueBrain> duplciated from where? 12:56:49 <Rubidium> duplicate between $filename and .svn/$filename.svn-base 12:57:16 <Rubidium> duplicate between $filename and .svn/text-base/$filename.svn-base 12:57:21 <TrueBrain> yes, so? 12:57:26 <TrueBrain> that size is counted only once 12:57:52 <Rubidium> why is that only counted once? 12:58:01 <Rubidium> you check the total size of all files in the directory 12:59:35 <TrueBrain> ah, you mean it like that, k, fair enough 13:01:10 <TrueBrain> so, removing the workout copy 13:01:11 <TrueBrain> 26M . 13:01:15 <peter1138> Total of 35MB for my .svn files. 13:01:18 <TrueBrain> so, hg ineed is 50% bigger 13:01:29 <TrueBrain> with that comes the complete history of all files .. 13:01:34 <TrueBrain> still makes you wonder what svn did wrong :p 13:02:07 <peter1138> Hmm, that's not file size :o 13:02:12 *** Zealotus [~Ping@78-69-54-150-no70.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:02:55 <Rubidium> anyhow, the overhead of hg vs svn is 25% (including working copy) 13:03:21 <TrueBrain> and without working copy it is 50% 13:03:28 <Rubidium> where svn requires a network connection and a server storing several hundreds MBs of data 13:03:48 <Rubidium> and hg has all the information it needs locally 13:04:12 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: how ever I calculate, I never get 25% 13:04:14 <TrueBrain> at least 40% 13:04:21 <Ammler> and why do you still use svn as "main" repo? 13:04:22 <TrueBrain> @calc 49 / 62 13:04:22 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: 0.790322580645 13:04:27 <TrueBrain> @calc 62 / 49 13:04:27 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: 1.26530612245 13:04:38 <TrueBrain> Ammler: centralized 13:04:59 <TrueBrain> 26% .. I can't do math :p 13:04:59 <TrueBrain> lol 13:06:08 <Rubidium> Ammler: because subversion has the habit to number all commits sequentially and every checkout of a svn repository has them in the same sequence 13:06:27 *** grumbel [~grumbel@i577AEE75.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 13:06:27 <TrueBrain> openttd:/var/repos/svn# du -h openttd -s 13:06:27 <TrueBrain> 433M openttd 13:07:51 <Rubidium> whereas hg also numbers commits, also sequentially, but at the time they were added to your own checkout, not to some global checkout 13:08:09 <Rubidium> which makes the sequential hg number useless 13:08:11 <TrueBrain> openttd:/var/repos/hg# du -h -s -L 13:08:11 <TrueBrain> 256M . 13:08:15 <TrueBrain> (including developers-spaces) 13:08:23 <TrueBrain> openttd:/var/repos/git# du -h -s -L 13:08:23 <TrueBrain> 92M . 13:08:24 <TrueBrain> hehe 13:08:51 <Rubidium> and that's why they use those long hashes as "unique" version numbers 13:11:05 <Ammler> doesn't the hg repo of the server count sequentially? 13:11:36 <Rubidium> yes 13:11:55 <Rubidium> can an user query those revision numbers? 13:11:56 <Rubidium> no 13:12:26 <TrueBrain> Ammler: pick any random 2 hgs based on the same hg on the developers part of hg.openttd.org, and you see 2 commits have different versions (because of merges) 13:12:26 <Ammler> as long as you use that repo only in read mode, why not? 13:12:51 <Rubidium> because then you need to query that EACH AND EVERY TIME you compile 13:13:06 <Ammler> like svn 13:13:13 <Rubidium> no 13:13:21 <Rubidium> svn knows it's local version number 13:13:49 <Ammler> if I clone the hg repo, I have the same numbers as teh server... 13:13:59 <Rubidium> not necessarily 13:14:03 <Ammler> and still, when I pull later, not? 13:14:18 * TrueBrain suggests adding Bazaar :p 13:14:35 <Ammler> but that's how "clone" should work, isn't? 13:15:13 <TrueBrain> Ammler: it does work as long as you have only a 'clone' ... but as soon as you make a local commit and start merging, things go very wrong 13:15:19 <TrueBrain> (the decentralised part of Mercurial) 13:15:42 <TrueBrain> only centralized VCSes can give a revision that is unique throughout the project 13:15:46 <Rubidium> clone only guarantees that the parent "pointers" from each "revision" are correct 13:17:13 <Rubidium> not that the order at which the revisions reach your client are exactly the same as on the server 13:17:19 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: assuming there are no multiple heads in a hg repos, the chances are VERY high that a 'clone' gives identical revisions :) 13:18:26 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: becuase of how hg works, that is kind og guaranteed :) (Well, without multiple heads, that is) 13:18:33 <Rubidium> so... it only works for the svn-repos and not for the developer repositories 13:19:43 <Rubidium> and whenever we would start actually using HG as main repository system we would need one person to pull from all developers and push that to the main server 13:19:51 <Rubidium> or things are going to get even more messy 13:20:02 <yorick> why doesn't the console have the ability to print "\t" 13:21:10 <Ammler> yorick: do you use trunk? there was recently a utf-8 support added (around 2 months) 13:21:36 <peter1138> \t has not much to do with UTF-8... 13:21:36 <yorick> yes, using trunk 13:21:41 <yorick> but it displays "?" 13:21:56 <yorick> also \n to console tends to display improperly 13:21:57 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: developers would still be able to commit like svn to a main hg, and when they get a 'clone' again, the version number still is the same on every clone 13:21:57 <Ammler> oh tab 13:22:31 <Ammler> it looked like a chinese char :-) 13:22:52 <yorick> meh...google C string <-- bad query 13:28:11 *** sulai [~Miranda@p5B2B7AE1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 13:33:07 *** Dred_furst` [~Dred_furs@resnet514.bournemouth.ac.uk] has joined #openttd 13:34:28 *** Celestar [~Jadzia_Da@mnch-5d874a5a.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #openttd 13:34:31 *** mode/#openttd [+o Celestar] by ChanServ 13:35:39 *** TrueBrain [truebrain@openttd.org] has quit [Quit: Look at me flying!] 13:35:55 *** TrueBrain [truebrain@openttd.org] has joined #openttd 13:36:06 *** Dred_furst [~Dred_furs@resnet514.bournemouth.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:38:15 *** Celestar_ [~Jadzia_Da@mnch-5d874a5a.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #openttd 13:38:19 *** Zealotus [~Ping@78-69-54-150-no70.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #openttd 13:38:36 *** Celestar is now known as Guest854 13:38:36 *** Celestar_ is now known as Celestar 13:38:41 *** Celestar [~Jadzia_Da@mnch-5d874a5a.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [] 13:38:57 *** Celestar [~Jadzia_Da@mnch-5d874a5a.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #openttd 13:38:59 *** mode/#openttd [+o Celestar] by ChanServ 13:39:21 *** rortom [~rortom@p57B7BA91.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 13:42:48 *** Guest854 [~Jadzia_Da@mnch-5d874a5a.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:03:59 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r14369 /trunk/src/vehicle.cpp: 14:03:59 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Fix: Enforce non-front engines to be stopped. 14:03:59 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: This could be caused by old savegames resp. their conversion, and causes 14:03:59 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: trouble for e.g. autoreplace. 14:09:25 *** Swallow [~chatzilla@5355F5FD.cable.casema.nl] has joined #openttd 14:14:41 *** Euro_swallow [~chatzilla@5355F5FD.cable.casema.nl] has joined #openttd 14:20:16 *** Swallow [~chatzilla@5355F5FD.cable.casema.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:20:23 *** Euro_swallow is now known as Swallow 14:23:32 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... some of you are python literate, right? is there a predefined "empty" class? i want to do stuff like this: 14:23:34 <Eddi|zuHause> a=None 14:23:38 <Eddi|zuHause> a.x = 5 14:23:55 <Eddi|zuHause> but then it errors out with "NoneType has no attribute x" 14:24:10 <Eddi|zuHause> and it also doesn't work with object() instead of None 14:24:14 <TrueBrain> dah 14:24:17 <TrueBrain> lol :) 14:24:24 <TrueBrain> None is not a class, it is nothing :) 14:24:34 <TrueBrain> and do you really want a class, or a table? 14:24:34 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but object is a class 14:24:38 <TrueBrain> a = {} 14:24:41 <TrueBrain> a['x'] = 5 14:24:57 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd not like a dictionary 14:25:40 <Eddi|zuHause> i mean i could define a class for this, but it seems silly that such a thing would not be predefined 14:25:47 <Tekky> if the repository grew very much due to many changes, then hg offers no way to only checkout the latest revision, whereas svn does? That is correct, isn't it? 14:26:06 <frosch123> Tekky: hg pull? 14:26:32 <TrueBrain> Tekky: the trunk hg contains 10000 commits, and still is almost smaller ... so how much would you want it to grow before that can become an issue? 14:27:02 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: never needed that, as I think it is bad programming, so can't help you there :) 14:27:13 <TrueBrain> (I believe in prototyping a class, or use a table :)) 14:27:55 *** sulai [~Miranda@p5B2B7AE1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 14:29:12 <Tekky> TrueBrain: Well, I guess the OpenTTD commits are very small. Other projects which involve changes to big data files, such as art files, can cause the repository to get very large very quickly. Therefore, I consider it important to be able to download only the latest revision. 14:29:39 <frosch123> iirc hg cannot deal with binary files 14:29:57 <TrueBrain> Tekky: we are not a support channel for a VCS choice ;) For that there are other channels, which can advise you much much better :) 14:30:05 <Tekky> frosch123: the pull command assumes that you have a local repository, doesn't it? 14:30:30 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: well, my issue is that a primitive "class Empty: pass" would seem out of place... it does not serve any purpose 14:30:40 <TrueBrain> but I won't want to host your VCS, that is fore sure :) (most VCSes can only handle text-blobs in a normal way .. binary data becomes BIG! :p) 14:30:42 <frosch123> Tekky: "hg pull" is like "svn update" 14:30:49 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: glx * r14370 /branches/noai/ (35 files in 7 dirs): [NoAI] -Sync: with trunk r14337:14369 14:31:13 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: I tihnk abusing a class is out of place ;) (hehe :)) 14:31:18 <frosch123> and it seams my "IIRC" was wrong :s 14:32:15 <glx> frosch123: wrong, "hg fetch" is like "svn update" 14:32:19 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: but internally, the attributes of a class are stored in a dictionary anyway 14:32:29 <glx> and "hg fetch" is "hg pull && hg update" 14:32:40 <frosch123> ok :) 14:32:56 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: so why use a class in the first place? 14:33:01 <frosch123> but "hg pull" prints a warning about that :) 14:33:20 <glx> and you often need "hg commit" too after a merge 14:34:02 <glx> (merge is also done with "hg pull") 14:34:47 <Eddi|zuHause> well, the entire issue is way too complex... 14:36:38 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: mainly, for an "abstract" constructor i wanted to say "this variable will get filled with attributes later" 14:37:06 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm dealing with Attributed Abstract Grammars 14:37:14 <TrueBrain> so, create a class for that :) 14:37:42 <Eddi|zuHause> well, yes... class... but i have no suitible place to define that class, so i hoped there was a predefined one ;) 14:38:01 *** Volley [~worf@84-119-46-6.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:38:28 <Tekky> TrueBrain: I do not plan to make my own repository, I am just surprised that hg offers no equivalent to the svn checkout command, i.e. you are forced to download the entire repository even if all you want is the latest revision. 14:39:04 <TrueBrain> Tekky: when you want that from hg, you miss the point of hg :) 14:39:09 <TrueBrain> hg is a decentralized VCS 14:39:16 <TrueBrain> so by default, you want a complete history on your local disk 14:39:20 <TrueBrain> what you want, is a centralized VCS 14:39:22 <frosch123> Tekky: Maybe you want an equivalent to "svn export"? 14:39:25 <TrueBrain> like SVN or CVS 14:39:32 <TrueBrain> so it is not that suprising :) 14:40:31 *** sulai [~Miranda@p5B2B7AE1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 14:40:35 <Eddi|zuHause> he just wants to skip one level of decentralisation 14:40:59 <TrueBrain> there are hybrids out there 14:41:23 *** JdGordon [~jonno@c220-237-62-18.smelb2.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #openttd 14:41:40 <JdGordon> does anyone know how to compile openttd for windows mobile? 14:42:00 *** nekx [~asd@0x3e42e6e6.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #openttd 14:42:24 <glx> JdGordon: no 14:42:30 <TrueBrain> JdGordon: OpenTTD is not supported on Windows Mobile out of the box 14:42:37 <TrueBrain> it hangs for unknown reasons 14:42:47 <TrueBrain> you might want to check out a project on the web which has a working port 14:43:09 <Tekky> <TrueBrain> so by default, you want a complete history on your local disk <-- I understand that, but I don't understand why hg offers no possibility of overriding this default. This can be important if the repository is much larger than the latest revision. 14:43:09 <glx> I just know it requires a pro version of visual studio 14:43:28 <TrueBrain> Tekky: maybe because then all its functionalities fail? :) 14:43:32 <TrueBrain> well, maybe you can override it 14:43:34 <JdGordon> ah nuts 14:43:36 <JdGordon> ok thanls 14:43:42 <TrueBrain> but then again, I don't care about that feature, as you would abuse what hg is meant to do 14:43:53 <TrueBrain> as I said, you are better of asking those questions in an other channel Tekky :) 14:48:19 *** sulai [~Miranda@p5B2B7AE1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 14:48:25 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, would it work if ".hg" pointed to the remote repository, and then only doing "hg up"? 14:48:31 *** TinoDidriksen [~projectjj@85.27.135.237] has joined #openttd 14:48:41 *** JdGordon [~jonno@c220-237-62-18.smelb2.vic.optusnet.com.au] has left #openttd [Konversation terminated!] 14:54:09 <Tekky> TrueBrain: if all I want to do is to apply a patch to the latest cargodest revision and then throw it away, which happens often to me, then an equivalent to the SVN checkout command would be best for my purpose, I think. Wouldn't it be more appropriate to store cargodest on a centralized VCS instead of Mercurial server? I guess I should read more about VCSes on Wikiipedia. 14:54:55 <TrueBrain> Tekky: cargodest is in development; in development it turns out Mercurial is much better and easier to use, than a SVN branch 14:55:56 <TrueBrain> Tekky: and the other option you always have, is to download the source from the latest compile of cargodest, and extract that 14:56:02 <TrueBrain> consumes just 3 MiB of bandiwdth 14:56:03 <Tekky> shouldn't the AI branch also be a Mercurial branch then, instead of an SVN branch? 14:56:31 <TrueBrain> when we started hg was not really in use 14:56:32 <Tekky> or is this because there are less people working on cargodest than on the AI branch? 14:56:37 <TrueBrain> and for NoAI it turned out to be more useful in SVN 14:57:04 <TrueBrain> and for NoAI, I myself do have a hg repos 14:58:30 *** Celestar [~Jadzia_Da@mnch-5d874a5a.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:58:30 <Tekky> TrueBrain: does your hg repository contain all the revisions in the SVN tree or is it only a snapshot of a certain SVN revision? 14:59:13 <TrueBrain> all hg repos contain the complete history of the SVN branch they are based on 14:59:36 <Tekky> the SVN commits and hg commits are compatible, aren't they, as they both use unified diff formats? 14:59:55 <glx> the only problem is hg or git repos miss some changes (when you commit from the wrong dir) 15:00:02 <TrueBrain> they don't use that, but they can output as such 15:00:14 <TrueBrain> glx: how do you mean? 15:00:26 <glx> (like I did when I commited from extra instead from ottd_grf) 15:00:32 <TrueBrain> Tekky: and I rather use hg over SVN, as in hg I do TONS more commits, as SVN is .. more permanent :) 15:00:50 <Tekky> ok, thx. As you can see, I am completely new to version control systems. 15:01:13 <TrueBrain> read up on it on the Internet 15:01:32 <TrueBrain> glx: I don't know of any such problems? 15:01:48 <TrueBrain> in the first case, my dont-reimport-everything-protection-script is bugged 15:02:52 <glx> TrueBrain: http://vcs.openttd.org/hg/openttd/extra/website.hg/rev/ee328fc1c57e <-- this one should be in ottd_grf too 15:03:31 <TrueBrain> haha, that explains why there was a french blob in the website all of a sudden :p 15:03:32 <TrueBrain> hehehehe 15:03:40 <TrueBrain> glx: someone shouldhave told me :) 15:03:54 <glx> I think I told it 15:04:43 <TrueBrain> not by highlighting my name, first time I read about it :) 15:08:40 *** Euro_swallow [~chatzilla@5355F5FD.cable.casema.nl] has joined #openttd 15:09:23 <TrueBrain> there you go glx :) 15:09:34 <TrueBrain> indeed a mistake in my detection script about what to update :) 15:09:46 <glx> looking in my logs I though you were aware of it ;) 15:09:51 <TrueBrain> (it could only handle 1 branch at the time :p) 15:10:12 <TrueBrain> I really wasn't :( As I have been wondering where that french came from :p 15:10:14 <TrueBrain> hehehe :) 15:10:20 <TrueBrain> oh well, fixed now :) 15:12:34 <yorick> hm, findversion.sh likes to say 0 [main] sh 4176 sync_with_child: child 5068(0x174) died before initialization with status code 0xFFFFFFFF 15:12:59 <yorick> 3701 [main] sh 4176 sync_with_child: *** child state waiting for longjmp fork: Resource temporarily unavailable svn: Write error: Invalid argument 15:14:02 <glx> retry 15:14:13 *** Swallow [~chatzilla@5355F5FD.cable.casema.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:14:16 <yorick> works 15:14:25 *** Euro_swallow is now known as Swallow 15:17:25 * peter1138 returns 15:18:16 * hylje yields 15:19:21 * TrueBrain resumes 15:26:16 * Doorslammer something 15:31:42 * yorick somethings 15:33:52 * murray screams 15:35:36 <Tekky> In OpenTTD, when you get the offer to exclusively test a new train, what exact consequences does your response have? Does the train end up having a better reliability if you test the train one year before its official appearance? 15:36:42 *** Doorslammer [Doorslamme@PIPP-p-203-54-229-160.prem.tmns.net.au] has quit [] 15:38:02 <yorick> no 15:38:15 <yorick> newgrfs can set another appearance 15:38:28 <yorick> I think you might get it cheaper 15:38:35 <hylje> if you agree to test, you must invest in one and use it during the year 15:38:49 <yorick> you don't have to 15:38:57 <hylje> if you agree and don't get one, you'll stop getting offers 15:39:14 <peter1138> For a bit. 15:39:19 <hylje> if you don't agree nothing special happens 15:40:18 *** Frostregen [~sucks@dslb-084-058-190-008.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 15:41:26 *** Zahl [~Zahl@e179052161.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #openttd 15:42:25 <TrueBrain> hylje: the next player gets the offer ;) 15:44:58 <Tekky> ah, in multiplayer, it is randomized who gets the offer? 15:46:04 * yorick only needed 190 lines :) 15:48:43 <peter1138> Tekky, no, it's sorted by company rating, I believe. 15:48:59 <Tekky> ah, thx 15:49:03 <planetmaker> [17:38] <hylje> if you agree and don't get one, you'll stop getting offers <-- not true. I frequently do so and keep getting offers. 15:52:12 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: only after N years, you get an other one again 15:52:20 <TrueBrain> much less often than when you would have built one 15:52:35 <planetmaker> ah, thx TrueBrain :) 15:52:47 <planetmaker> So, if you decline, you will get others, though? 15:55:14 <TrueBrain> yes 15:58:05 <Eddi|zuHause> so... next python problem... how can i pass an int by reference? 15:58:20 <hylje> you don't 15:58:27 <Eddi|zuHause> but i have to 15:58:32 <hylje> for what purpose 15:58:58 <Eddi|zuHause> to modify its value in a recursive function 15:59:49 <hylje> i don't think you need to do that. just have your recursive function return the modified value 15:59:55 <yorick> what are you using python for? 16:00:27 <Eddi|zuHause> yorick: rapid prototyping... 16:00:33 <Eddi|zuHause> what else is python useful for? 16:00:37 <hylje> glue 16:01:08 <Eddi|zuHause> hylje: the problem with returning the value is, i have to handle that return value at every place the function is used 16:01:20 <Eddi|zuHause> but i need very generic replaceable functions 16:01:22 <hylje> nested function 16:01:53 <yorick> or just put stuff in a dict? 16:02:32 <Eddi|zuHause> dicts are bad... 16:02:51 <hylje> in python not really 16:02:53 <yorick> so is passing an int by reference 16:03:01 <yorick> that'd be worse 16:03:07 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd have absolutely no chance to ever statically check my own program with my program ;) 16:03:34 <hylje> i suspect you don't actually want to use python then 16:03:47 <yorick> only thing is I miss in python are objects 16:03:53 <hylje> eh, what? 16:04:00 <hylje> like the `object` builtin? 16:04:03 <Eddi|zuHause> well, the task is to statically check python ;; 16:04:37 <yorick> hylje: no, basically dicts I can access with "." 16:04:40 <Eddi|zuHause> but dicts are pretty much the worst to statically check 16:05:01 <yorick> for key in dict? 16:05:08 <valhallasw> yorick: like... properties? 16:05:14 <hylje> yorick: attributes 16:05:22 <yorick> attributes, yes 16:05:34 <valhallasw> attributes is the right term for python indeed 16:05:49 <hylje> just make a dummy subclass of object and use that? 16:06:07 <valhallasw> or rather: "Properties: attributes managed by get/set methods" 16:06:27 <yorick> yes, you need a subclass 16:06:33 <yorick> I don't like dummy subclasses 16:06:45 <yorick> I just want o = object(); o.a = 10 16:06:54 <hylje> too bad object doesn't have a __dict__ but one has to optimize something 16:07:02 <valhallasw> why would you want to do that with variables that are not used in the object? 16:07:21 <hylje> valhallasw: to have a syntax-sugary dict 16:07:38 <yorick> to have a syntax-sugary dict 16:09:59 <valhallasw> right 16:10:25 <valhallasw> the way you stated it would mean 'I want to be able to do this with *any* object' 16:10:39 <valhallasw> if you just want a syntax-sugary dict, create one :P 16:10:52 <yorick> I want one out of the box 16:12:15 <yorick> why does my gcc have dutch error messages all of a sudden? 16:12:26 <valhallasw> .. it's like 5 lines of code :P 16:12:28 <yorick> how does it even know I understand dutch 16:12:43 <valhallasw> try asking locale 16:12:44 <yorick> valhallasw: that is already too much for a command-line 16:12:59 <yorick> notfair :( 16:13:29 <valhallasw> then import SyntaxSugaryDict ;) 16:13:41 <yorick> not portable enough 16:13:42 <valhallasw> which is still longer than o = object(), agreed 16:14:35 <valhallasw> then stop whining and use dict['a'] :P 16:14:53 <valhallasw> which is /not/ limited to strings 16:15:27 <valhallasw> unless you use o.__getattr__(object), but that defeats the purpose :P 16:15:32 *** lobster [~michielbi@86.89.201.189] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:15:43 <yorick> also, I would like to have a stdout replacement in less than 185 lines of C 16:16:16 <valhallasw> also, I would like to travel faster than C 16:16:33 <yorick> and Syntax Sugary Dicts should help me do that 16:17:04 <valhallasw> why does o.a vs o['a'] reduce your line count? 16:17:36 <yorick> because I can make stdout.write with the first, and not with the second 16:18:52 *** lobster [~michielbi@86.89.201.189] has joined #openttd 16:22:32 <valhallasw> you mean it makes implementing functions dynamically possibler 16:22:35 <valhallasw> -r 16:25:15 <Eddi|zuHause> PS: i solved my reference issue like this: http://nopaste.php-q.net/52007 16:28:46 *** Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has left #openttd [] 16:29:04 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1F412.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:37:27 *** [com]buster [~eternal@cust-03-55bf402e.adsl.scarlet.nl] has quit [Quit: Operator, give me an exit] 16:57:38 *** Tim [~Tim@p5B37D2B3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 17:00:25 *** Bjarni [~Bjarni@0x50a46ad5.virnxx14.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #openttd 17:00:28 *** mode/#openttd [+o Bjarni] by ChanServ 17:03:37 *** fjb [~frank@p5485DA3F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 17:09:43 *** Vikthor [~Vikthor@snat1.spoje.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:10:23 *** Volley [~worf@84-119-46-6.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #openttd 17:11:56 *** Mortal [~mortal@0x573a3da2.odnqu1.static.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #openttd 17:14:56 * lobster does a search for a guide to using these "advanced signals" 17:15:01 <lobster> oddest of things 17:18:33 <Eddi|zuHause> there are plenty of those 17:19:16 *** ecke [~ecke@213.195.202.130] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:20:38 <lobster> found one, indeed 17:20:52 <lobster> i'll try them immediatly in my game 17:21:49 *** Vikthor [~Vikthor@snat1.spoje.net] has joined #openttd 17:22:59 <lobster> hrrr, works like a charm 17:32:07 *** Sacro [~Ben@adsl-87-102-39-137.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd 17:32:51 *** welshdragon [~vista@83.100.249.30] has joined #openttd 17:33:15 *** ecke [~ecke@213.195.202.130] has joined #openttd 17:33:44 *** Dr_Jekyll [Dr_Jekyll@p57B0EF26.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 17:35:18 *** Vikthor [~Vikthor@snat1.spoje.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:35:44 *** Vikthor [~Vikthor@snat1.spoje.net] has joined #openttd 17:37:38 *** FR^2 [fr@oscar.frquadrat.de] has joined #openttd 17:39:05 *** ecke [~ecke@213.195.202.130] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:41:40 *** rortom [~rortom@p57B7BA91.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:42:14 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1F412.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 17:43:49 *** Vikthor [~Vikthor@snat1.spoje.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:45:42 *** Vikthor [~Vikthor@snat1.spoje.net] has joined #openttd 17:48:27 <TrueBrain> requesting a skilled C++ template person ... 17:55:54 *** KillaloT [~killalot@0x5738cccf.rdnqu1.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #openttd 17:56:19 *** Chrill is now known as Official 17:56:56 *** Official is now known as Chrill 18:05:50 *** venus214 [~guesswho@p57962733.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 18:09:23 <yorick> where did the flags on the website go? 18:10:24 <peter1138> I believe they're pending some kind of translation support. 18:11:04 <TrueBrain> people complained too much that when they clicked their flag, they still got english ... and failed to understand completely that it might be because it simply wasn't translated yet 18:12:38 <peter1138> I think some kind of text-based dropdown menu would be better, anyway. 18:14:21 <peter1138> 14% of / used... Maybe I made it too big :) 18:15:01 <peter1138> Hmm, 1 hr 30 mins left on ebay... 18:18:36 *** helb [~helb@84.244.90.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:19:01 *** helb [~helb@84.244.90.203] has joined #openttd 18:19:06 <juicetyve> buying or selling? :p 18:28:49 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14371 /trunk/src/ (misc_gui.cpp texteff.hpp train_cmd.cpp vehicle.cpp): -Fix [FS#2313]: loading indicator didn't stay with the front engine when turning a train in a station. 18:29:57 *** Swallow [~chatzilla@5355F5FD.cable.casema.nl] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.1/2008070208]] 18:31:17 <Bjarni> <juicetyve> buying or selling? :p <-- buying whatever his wife is selling because he is unaware of her ebay nick :P 18:31:51 *** Zahl_ [~Zahl@g229217168.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #openttd 18:38:57 *** Zahl [~Zahl@e179052161.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:38:57 *** Zahl_ is now known as Zahl 18:39:34 *** Gekz [~brendan@123-243-206-102.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:39:48 *** Gekz [~brendan@123-243-206-102.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #openttd 18:59:43 <ln-> http://www.lafinjack.net/images/random/offensive.jpg 19:04:09 *** welshdragon [~vista@83.100.249.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:09:13 *** Vikthor [~Vikthor@snat1.spoje.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:11:59 *** Vikthor [~Vikthor@snat1.spoje.net] has joined #openttd 19:12:43 *** Zephyris [~Zephyris@90.242.95.60] has joined #openttd 19:19:04 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@d51A43482.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: oO] 19:23:56 <Bjarni> ln-: which one would you pick? 19:25:07 <Eddi|zuHause> "a graphically severed human head" <- like the navigator in monkey island? 19:25:22 <Tim> A, then B, then C, then D 19:27:05 <Bjarni> if we read A as the navigator from MI, then I would say D 19:27:30 <Bjarni> if it's a first person shooter and it aims for realistic graphics, then I would say A 19:28:13 <Eddi|zuHause> this question is a typical case of "it depends..." 19:28:21 <Bjarni> yeah 19:28:38 <frosch123> yup, they should have attached the four pictures instead :p 19:28:50 <Prof_Frink> Eddi|zuHause: Nothing "depends". Everything is either right or wrong. 19:28:52 <Eddi|zuHause> like how old the children are, and how detailed the games are 19:28:56 <Bjarni> now that would have been offensive to some people 19:29:05 <Tim> Do you think it would be such an impact on your childs if they see two men kissing each other? Oo 19:29:15 <Bjarni> YES 19:29:18 <Bjarni> :P 19:29:56 <Bjarni> but that's not the question 19:30:08 <Bjarni> the question is what YOU find offensive 19:30:48 <Prof_Frink> Sacro. 19:30:48 <Eddi|zuHause> "as a parent" meaning "if your children would see this" 19:30:53 <Sacro> ? 19:30:56 <Sacro> argh 19:30:58 <Sacro> not men kissing 19:31:18 <Bjarni> I say it would really depend on the age of the child 19:31:30 <Bjarni> say the child is 12 19:31:56 <Bjarni> then I would likely ban all games containing any of those listed here 19:31:59 <Prof_Frink> Are you deciding whet 19:32:08 <Prof_Frink> Are you deciding what to put into openttd? 19:32:30 <Prof_Frink> s/ban/rate 15 and enforce rating/ 19:32:50 <Eddi|zuHause> i could never understand all the trouble around "the F-word" 19:32:52 <Bjarni> the game is for all ages who can understand the game 19:33:04 <Bjarni> the code is rated 18+ though 19:33:07 <Prof_Frink> What? France? 19:33:16 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. 19:33:21 <Bjarni> and it has been that way since DV said "fucking cunt code" while coding 19:33:43 <Tim> I think for the next generation it will get more or less "normal" to see two men kissing each other - Considering how the acceptance of homosexuality developed until today ;) 19:34:37 <Bjarni> I'm not so sure if I would allow any game involving people kissing each other 19:34:38 <Eddi|zuHause> traditionally, these things shift very much 19:35:03 <Bjarni> ok, the sims could be an exception ;) 19:35:13 <Eddi|zuHause> like if you compare ancient greek culture to medieval culture 19:35:25 <Bjarni> they can kiss in the sims, right? 19:35:49 <Eddi|zuHause> Bjarni: yes, and you get babies from kissing 19:36:13 <Bjarni> heh 19:36:22 <Tim> Well, i hope we won't make a huge step backwards like the one from the greek/roman culture to the medieevalian one ;) 19:36:28 *** Dred_furst` [~Dred_furs@resnet514.bournemouth.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:36:50 <Bjarni> I got top grade in biology and the topic for the exam was reproduction oriented. I can inform you that kissing alone isn't enough :P 19:36:50 <Prof_Frink> Tim: Well, the main cause of that was religion. Oh cock. 19:37:02 <Eddi|zuHause> Tim: i'm pretty certain something like that will happen again 19:37:02 <Tim> Truly sad, if you look at what the romans build and knew about medicine and then compare it to the dark age... 19:37:19 <Prof_Frink> Hmm, 8 cunts in trunk 19:37:28 <Bjarni> o_O 19:37:55 <Eddi|zuHause> Prof_Frink: it wasn't that much about religion, it was more about decline of government and infrastructure 19:38:01 <Bjarni> somebody once made a bugreport because the random name generator made "Cunttown" 19:38:35 <Eddi|zuHause> didn't someone reply that this was an actual townname? 19:38:44 <Prof_Frink> Scunthorpe 19:39:22 <yorick> stupid multistop-less trams 19:39:25 <Bjarni> http://www.backpackershell.com/photogallery/photo00019871/RACIST_park.jpg <-- speaking of placenames... I found a bit of Engrish :D 19:39:40 <yorick> get stuck at every stop 19:39:49 <yorick> and they like to go to every stop all at once 19:40:29 <lobster> oh dear me 19:40:40 <lobster> advanced signals fail it at my junction 19:41:16 <Eddi|zuHause> you are doing it wrong 19:43:05 <lobster> actually, no 19:43:09 <lobster> there's bridges in it 19:43:19 <lobster> the signals can't cope with them 19:43:34 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, they can 19:43:56 *** ben_goodger_ [~ben@host81-152-232-177.range81-152.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 19:45:21 <lobster> i guess not 19:45:28 <lobster> otherwise my junction would've worked 19:45:52 <lobster> t'is the simplest of junctions, only with 2 2-tile bridges inbetween the signals and the station 19:46:09 <lobster> and thus all goes to pot 19:46:20 <peter1138> Screenshot, or savegame? 19:50:04 <lobster> oh wai 19:50:23 <lobster> looks like i'm doing it wrong after all 19:50:36 <Eddi|zuHause> gee... 19:51:02 *** ben_goodger [~ben@host81-152-232-177.range81-152.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:55:27 *** Kasceh [~Kasc@cpc2-leed7-0-0-cust124.leed.cable.ntl.com] has joined #openttd 19:55:37 <Kasceh> What happens if I rcon newgame in a server? 19:55:47 <yorick> it stops being a server 19:56:00 <Kasceh> uh oh D: 19:57:32 <OdwallaBongwater> D: 19:57:37 *** OdwallaBongwater is now known as nckomodo 19:57:37 <Kasceh> Oh, is it a script that kicks people if they try do big terraform? 19:58:49 <peter1138> yorick, no it doesn't. 19:59:13 <yorick> Kasceh: is what? 19:59:47 <Kasceh> That 'thing' that can kick people if they delete/terraform large sections of area 20:00:03 <Bjarni> that's called an "admin" 20:00:24 <Kasceh> .. Automatically lol 20:00:37 <yorick> Kasceh: does that exist? 20:00:43 <Kasceh> Yes 20:00:47 <Kasceh> Ive seen it a few tiems 20:00:57 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, kick all players, then you automatically kick the ones that do bad terraforming 20:00:57 <juicetyve> somebody mentioned a patch for it in here last night 20:01:05 <yorick> oh, then you're the one I banned a couple of times :) 20:01:17 <Kasceh> No? lol 20:01:21 <Kasceh> its quite common 20:01:29 <Kasceh> I just cant remember what its called 20:01:42 <yorick> hehe 20:01:53 <yorick> terraform autokick 20:01:59 <yorick> kick if terraform too much 20:02:15 <yorick> I wrote such a patch... 20:02:25 *** yorick [~Yorick@s55924da0.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [Quit: But anyway, Poef!] 20:02:29 <Kasceh> Or is it possible just to make terraform cost alot? 20:03:37 <Eddi|zuHause> yes 20:03:43 <Eddi|zuHause> it's a grf 20:03:50 <Eddi|zuHause> "basecost" or something 20:03:57 <Kasceh> Does everyone else need to grf, though? 20:04:07 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. all people need the grf 20:04:23 <TrueBrain> you can also modify the savegame :p 20:04:24 <TrueBrain> hehehehehee 20:04:51 <Kasceh> Modify it to do what 20:05:13 <Kasceh> Cant trust people in servers, always come back to find the map completely deformed 20:05:45 <Eddi|zuHause> force people to put a company password 20:05:53 <Eddi|zuHause> helps a great deal 20:06:00 <Kasceh> Not on this server it doesnt 20:06:02 <juicetyve> well you get a long way with 100k :p 20:06:16 <Kasceh> it appears at the top, and its a heightmap of the UK 20:06:20 <Kasceh> people just get bored and sink it 20:07:01 <Kasceh> There should be an option of turning off water terraform, 20:07:32 <Kasceh> Or make water terraform cost alot more than it already does 20:08:13 <lobster> Eddi|zuHause: to be fairly honest, i followed the instructions from the wiki 20:08:27 <lobster> so either the instructions are faulty, or the signals are 20:08:52 <Eddi|zuHause> i have still no idea what you actually did 20:09:35 <lobster> well, i tried to apply them to terminal stations 20:09:42 <lobster> which should be doable 20:10:13 <lobster> but not in the manner i tried 20:11:04 *** ecke [~ecke@213.195.202.130] has joined #openttd 20:12:01 <Eddi|zuHause> which is exactly the same information as before... 20:12:09 <Eddi|zuHause> stop wasting my time... 20:12:47 *** sulai [~Miranda@p5B2B7AE1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 20:12:49 <frosch123> hm, the year 0 does neither belong to the first century before nor after christ 20:13:01 *** FR^2 [fr@oscar.frquadrat.de] has quit [Quit: Connection reset by caffein depletion...] 20:13:10 <Eddi|zuHause> there is no year 0 20:13:20 <Eddi|zuHause> it jumped from -1 to 1 20:13:34 <peter1138> There is in OpenTTD :D 20:13:41 <TrueBrain> were you there? 20:13:54 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, i'm way older than peter1138 ;) 20:14:11 <peter1138> Obviously. 20:14:15 <peter1138> Not! 20:14:21 <peter1138> 1138 BC, maybe? 20:17:04 *** Vikthor [~Vikthor@snat1.spoje.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:17:55 *** Vikthor [~Vikthor@snat1.spoje.net] has joined #openttd 20:23:15 <ln-> wtf, is there some fee that foreign cars or buses need to pay in Germany? 20:23:27 <Tim> no 20:23:32 <Tim> only lkws 20:23:41 <Tim> buses might be though... 20:23:52 <lobster> alright, anyone that's not Eddi|zuHause, i'm having a bit of trouble applying advanced signals to terminus stations 20:23:54 <frosch123> only trucks 20:24:20 <lobster> is it not a one way on entry, two-way at the station lines itself? 20:24:24 <ln-> i was told a finnish bus was charged ~200 euros by a Zoll person who stopped the bus near LÃŒbeck. 20:25:50 *** mikl [~mikl@0x57372ee2.mrbnqu1.static.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #openttd 20:26:02 <Eddi|zuHause> lobster: wtf is so hard to understand about "screenshot or savegame"? 20:26:43 <Bjarni> Eddi|zuHause: well, you need to figure out how to generate a file and then you need to put it online 20:28:07 <lobster> Eddi|zuHause: wtf is so hard about simply stating "terminus stations need signal x on entry and signal y in front of the station itself"? 20:28:27 <lobster> a lot less hard than screenshotting, uploading and then asking 20:28:37 <lobster> but hey, i'll seek for some advice somewhere else 20:28:43 <frosch123> lobster: advanced one way signal on entry, no signals at station, no signal at exit 20:28:54 *** nicfer [~Administr@168.226.105.19] has joined #openttd 20:28:57 <nicfer> hi 20:29:13 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd so love a /kick command right now... but an /ignore must suffice... 20:29:16 <nicfer> I've tried the nintendo ds port with an emulator and it crashed 20:29:23 <nicfer> how does it work? 20:29:40 <lobster> thanks, frosch123 20:30:23 <Eddi|zuHause> i know... it's my fault... 20:30:32 <Eddi|zuHause> i care too much about people having a problem 20:32:51 <frosch123> http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tierprozess <- could become my favorite wiki page 20:33:20 <frosch123> in 1740 in france a cow was judged and hanged for wizardry... 20:34:52 <Bjarni> well 20:35:13 <Bjarni> we saw in Diablo 2 that cows can be rather mean to human beings 20:37:20 <TinoDidriksen> Hanging a fully grown cow...the scaffolding for that would have to be pretty well built. 20:37:36 <frosch123> that's what I thought :) 20:37:54 <nicfer> is possible to test nds' openttd in a emulator? 20:39:26 <Eddi|zuHause> nicfer: it's pretty safe to assume that nobody here ever tried that 20:39:29 <Bjarni> nicfer: too bad the porter is offline at the moment and nobody else can answer your question 20:39:50 <Bjarni> you could post this question on the forum in the DS thread 20:40:37 <Bjarni> <Eddi|zuHause> nicfer: it's pretty safe to assume that nobody here ever tried that <-- yeah... my thought was "there is an emulator... maybe I should check it out" :D 20:41:06 <nicfer> there are various of them 20:41:27 <TinoDidriksen> Can always give it a shot yourself, and report back whether it worked... 20:41:31 <nicfer> someones paid, others free 20:46:55 *** Tim [~Tim@p5B37D2B3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:47:58 *** Tim [~Tim@p5B37D2B3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 20:48:22 <Bjarni> why pay for software when you can get something equally good for free? 20:49:01 *** De_Ghosty [~s@76-10-139-123.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:52:34 *** Aylomen [~a@DSL01.83.171.158.142.ip-pool.NEFkom.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:57:33 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truebrain * r14372 /branches/noai/ (21 files in 3 dirs): [NoAI] -Add: added AIRail and friends (Yexo) 20:58:47 *** KurtKraut [~ktk@gateway.kurtkraut.net] has joined #openttd 21:00:35 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truebrain * r14373 /branches/noai/src/train_cmd.cpp: [NoAI] -Remove: no longer need for braindead AI only code (Yexo) 21:01:06 <Eddi|zuHause> quickly hide massive feature under spam... 21:01:09 <Eddi|zuHause> new approach ;( 21:01:11 <Eddi|zuHause> ;) 21:01:34 *** mikl [~mikl@0x57372ee2.mrbnqu1.static.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 21:01:58 <TrueBrain> at least I use commit messages which state what it does :p 21:02:41 <Eddi|zuHause> well, "implement feature XY callback AB" does also state what it does :p 21:02:42 <frosch123> -Codechange: Enable feature 00 for AIs. :) 21:03:21 <Eddi|zuHause> iirc the tram commit message was of that style ;) 21:03:32 *** roboboy [3aad2910@webchat.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 21:05:16 *** Mortal [~mortal@0x573a3da2.odnqu1.static.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Quit: [FATAL] Client error: Memory leak - More RAM needed. More! More! More!] 21:06:39 *** venus214 [~guesswho@p57962733.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 21:10:39 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590fc1ab.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:11:06 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truebrain * r14374 /branches/noai/projects/ (openttd_vs80.vcproj openttd_vs90.vcproj): [NoAI] -Fix r14372: forget to update MSVC project files (blabla, always the same :p) 21:14:14 *** roboboy [3aad2910@webchat.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 21:20:59 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truebrain * r14375 /branches/noai/src/train_cmd.cpp: [NoAI] -Fix r14373: remove the now unused variable too ;) 21:21:04 <peter1138> Hmm, I never did finish the callbacks for AIs... 21:21:23 <peter1138> Quite possibly it doesn't make sense for NoAI... 21:21:25 <TrueBrain> which callbacks? 21:21:32 *** Zephyris [~Zephyris@90.242.95.60] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:21:38 <TrueBrain> that is why I ask ;) 21:21:51 <peter1138> Callbacks that say what vehicles to buy, and what stations to place. 21:22:14 <peter1138> (NewGRF station type, that is. Just graphical) 21:22:25 <TrueBrain> makes little sense for NoAI 21:22:29 <TrueBrain> AIs can query them self :) 21:22:49 <peter1138> AIs don't know what station looks good for freight, though ;) 21:22:59 <peter1138> That's basically what that does. 21:23:11 <peter1138> For vehicles... yeah, they can choose anyway. 21:23:15 <TrueBrain> hehe 21:23:16 <TrueBrain> silly :) 21:24:05 <peter1138> There are other things but I can't remember what :p 21:27:01 *** roboboy [3aad2910@webchat.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 21:27:09 *** Syyn [~syn@cpe-24-58-7-163.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 21:28:09 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd so love to program an AI, but i don't have that kind of time... 21:30:20 *** daspork [~daspork@71-87-194-249.dhcp.kgpt.tn.charter.com] has joined #openttd 21:30:24 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... when a filename doesn't fit on a widescreen monitor (with moderate font size), something probably got out of hand :p 21:30:34 *** Phoenix_the_II [rdeboom@home.deboom.biz] has joined #openttd 21:33:33 *** Zephyris [~Zephyris@90.242.95.60] has joined #openttd 21:39:07 *** KillaloT [~killalot@0x5738cccf.rdnqu1.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- IRC with a difference] 21:40:15 *** Zephyris [~Zephyris@90.242.95.60] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.1/2008070208]] 21:41:52 *** Brianetta [~brian@client-86-0-83-170.leed.adsl.virgin.net] has joined #openttd 21:47:19 *** roboboy [3aad2910@webchat.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 21:53:29 *** Frostregen [~sucks@dslb-084-058-190-008.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: und weg] 21:53:53 <Brianetta> Sacro: You about? 21:54:01 *** Tim [~Tim@p5B37D2B3.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #openttd [] 21:57:55 <Kasceh> An idea for you guys, dont know how valid it is though: Allow GRFs to be downloaded from a server 21:59:24 <Eddi|zuHause> how... original... 21:59:44 <Eddi|zuHause> like... not 70 other people have suggestes this before you 22:00:01 <Sacro> Brianetta: yeah 22:00:13 <Kasceh> Lol 22:00:28 <Brianetta> Sacro: Next weekend I'm off to the Lakes for a week 22:00:29 <Kasceh> Easier to say "its been suggested before" than to go off on one and be an ass about it 22:00:35 <Sacro> Brianetta: ooh how lovely 22:00:43 <Brianetta> Think you're up to looking after the server? 22:01:01 <Sacro> Errm... 22:01:02 <Eddi|zuHause> "but no party!" 22:01:02 <Sacro> possibly :) 22:01:08 <Sacro> I couldn't find the rcon password 22:01:13 <Sacro> oh 22:01:18 <Sacro> tis in the openttd.cfg isn't i 22:01:32 *** Mark [~M4rk@5ED06875.cable.ziggo.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:01:59 <Brianetta> yes (: 22:02:10 <Brianetta> gtg; business calls 22:03:21 <Sacro> hehe 22:04:24 <Eddi|zuHause> on sundays at midnight? 22:04:31 <Eddi|zuHause> you have strange office hours :p 22:15:20 *** TinoM [~Tino@i59F5D46E.versanet.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 22:18:49 <nicfer> is there any ttdpatch guide to do an grf that doesn't changes sprites? 22:19:53 <nicfer> well, a grf file that changes industries and cargos characteristics 22:21:12 *** letto [~letto@86.120.69.42] has joined #openttd 22:21:19 *** Kasceh [~Kasc@cpc2-leed7-0-0-cust124.leed.cable.ntl.com] has quit [] 22:26:06 *** bleepy [bleepy@5ad456aa.bb.sky.com] has quit [Quit: Be annoying on USENET #82: Post to soc.culture.women asking "what's your favorite brand of oven mitt, little ladies?"] 22:26:22 *** KritiK [~Maxim@78-106-215-105.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:26:48 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, it's called NewGraphicsSpecs, on the ttdpatch wiki. 22:27:30 <Eddi|zuHause> specifically action 0 and varaction 2 for industries 22:27:44 <nicfer> it doesn't mention what to do if you don't plan including a pcx file 22:29:52 <Eddi|zuHause> just leave the pcx file out? 22:30:12 <nicfer> what actions are out? 22:30:20 <Eddi|zuHause> no actions... 22:30:32 <Eddi|zuHause> actions per definition have nothing to do with pcx files 22:30:42 <Eddi|zuHause> "real sprites" have to do with pcx files 22:34:32 *** ecke [~ecke@213.195.202.130] has quit [Quit: ecke] 22:36:28 *** bleepy [bleepy@5ad456aa.bb.sky.com] has joined #openttd 22:39:17 *** Wezz6400 [~Wezz6400@145-118-111-36.fttx.bbned.nl] has quit [Quit: Caught sigterm, terminating...] 22:43:11 *** Zahl [~Zahl@g229217168.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:43:27 *** Zahl [~Zahl@g229217168.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #openttd 22:45:57 *** welshdragon [~vista@83.100.249.30] has joined #openttd 22:47:33 *** caladan [~caladan@161-bem-18.acn.waw.pl] has joined #openttd 22:48:06 <caladan> Hi, are there any RSS feeds available on the new website? 22:51:20 <nicfer> I'm having troubles with Action 1 for the cargos part 22:52:30 <nicfer> how many sets should I assign to it? 22:54:03 <FauxFaux> caladan: You mean, apart from the one that you get from the home page? 22:54:58 <nicfer> also, are cargos assigned to a certain climate? 22:55:04 <caladan> FauxFaux: well, i dont receive them since monday or something? 22:55:57 <caladan> i mean those from main page, there was address: http://www.openttd.org/mixedfeed.php 22:56:02 <caladan> and now it doesnt work 22:56:14 <caladan> cause homepage changed 22:56:37 <caladan> were the feeds moved somewhere or removed? 22:57:00 <FauxFaux> caladan: Do yo not get an rss icon in your browser? Or does your browser suck? 22:58:07 <caladan> yup, it's there 22:58:14 <caladan> i was looking for a direct link 22:58:18 <caladan> thanks 22:58:21 <FauxFaux> ... 22:58:45 <FauxFaux> Actually, the feeds look like crap in Opera's rss reader, full of html. 22:58:55 <caladan> i use Akregator 23:00:46 <caladan> i used to look for direct links, not to use firefox icon appearing at address bar, sorry :D 23:01:58 <caladan> k, thx for help, bye 23:01:59 *** caladan [~caladan@161-bem-18.acn.waw.pl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:02:31 <FauxFaux> TrueBrain: a) Both the rss feeds are full of (escaped) html so look like ass in every aggregator I can find, and b) visiting http://www.openttd.org/ gets you to http://www.openttd.org//en/ in at least two browsers. 23:05:17 <FauxFaux> And still lags IE quite a bit. :p 23:07:14 *** elmex [~elmex@e180064054.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:11:32 *** Yeggstry [~mind@cpc1-rdng14-0-0-cust946.winn.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:15:12 *** Chrill [~chrischri@c80-216-96-107.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [] 23:18:32 *** Bjarni [~Bjarni@0x50a46ad5.virnxx14.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:21:09 *** Zahl [~Zahl@g229217168.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: (~_~]"] 23:26:48 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1F412.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:38:29 *** nicfer [~Administr@168.226.105.19] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:38:58 *** Vikthor [~Vikthor@snat1.spoje.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:39:00 *** juicetyve [~asd@ti0056a340-dhcp0311.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:50:47 *** helb [~helb@84.244.90.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:54:59 *** Zorni [zorn@e177239034.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #openttd 23:55:20 *** helb [~helb@84.244.90.203] has joined #openttd 23:59:54 *** helb_ [~helb@84.244.90.203] has joined #openttd