Log for #openttd on 6th October 2008:
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02:09:06  <DaleStan> @seen Csab
02:09:06  <DorpsGek> DaleStan: I have not seen Csab.
02:09:13  <DaleStan> @seen Csaboka
02:09:13  <DorpsGek> DaleStan: Csaboka was last seen in #openttd 51 weeks, 6 days, 10 hours, 42 minutes, and 6 seconds ago: <Csaboka> I have to go, bye
02:09:24  <DaleStan> @seen Csaba
02:09:24  <DorpsGek> DaleStan: Csaba was last seen in #openttd 47 weeks, 1 day, 7 hours, 5 minutes, and 1 second ago: <csaba> fullload buttton has been activated:)
02:09:34  <DaleStan> *grumble*
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09:06:58  <planetmaker> morning :)
09:10:08  <ln>
09:10:13  <fjb> Morning planetmaker
09:10:28  <ln> morning slartibartfast
09:11:15  <planetmaker> lool @ ln
09:11:29  <planetmaker> what a nice question asked there... :-P
09:14:22  <ln> i would like to see the accepted solution
09:17:55  <petern> expert sexchange?
09:18:27  <ln> that's a more accurate description of the site.
09:18:45  <petern> odd, normally you can see the results if you scroll right down
09:18:52  <petern> maybe it depends on a google referrer...
09:19:14  <ln> yeah, normally.
09:19:26  <petern> haha, it does
09:19:38  <petern> if you search for the title on google, go to it that way
09:19:42  <petern> you get the answers then
09:19:49  <petern> blatant search rigging
09:20:27  <petern> Try this function
09:20:27  <petern> Function UnRnd()
09:20:27  <petern> UnRnd = 4 'my favourite number!
09:20:27  <petern> End Function
09:20:28  <petern> IntTemp = Int((255 * UnRnd()) + 1)
09:20:31  <petern> hehe
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09:22:13  <fjb> Nice solution to that problem.
09:22:52  <ln> wtf, the accepted solution provides no solution at all, not even a stupid one.
09:25:07  <fjb> Maybe replacing his brain would be acceptet as a solution.
09:26:08  <ccfreak2k>
09:38:51  <Celestar> :)
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09:49:01  <Celestar> <= this looks almost like a model railway :P
09:51:41  <fjb> Proportions are more TTD like. :-)
09:52:48  <ln> it has more than the max of 4 tracks per station.
09:53:33  <fjb> Did TTD have that maximum?
09:54:52  <ln> it did and does.
09:56:28  <ccfreak2k> IS this the next version of OpenTTD?
09:57:36  <fjb> Would be fun. Bigger buildings, curved tracks and less space between the tracks.
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09:59:36  <Celestar> er that is a real station you know :P
10:00:08  <fjb> No, not possible, look at the wagons, way too short.
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10:03:30  <Celestar> yeah right :P
10:03:59  <Celestar> *cough* telephoto lens *cough*
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10:13:49  <Brianetta> If that's TTD, then there are fake trains.
10:14:08  <Brianetta> You can't put two parallel tracks on one tile like that.
10:16:32  <TrueBrain> If that is TTD, we failed to keep 3D out :(
10:20:26  <Celestar> lol
10:20:40  <petern> The wonders of telephoto lenses.
10:20:47  <petern> That would be really cool...
10:21:08  <petern> Looks a bit busy.
10:21:35  <Celestar> yeah
10:21:52  <Celestar> 650 trains a day plus the S-Bahn
10:21:59  <Celestar> (which are another 1100 trains a day)
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10:22:23  <petern> That bit on the lower right corner looks really odd.
10:22:55  <TrueBrain> for some reason Debian removed subversion AGAIN
10:23:02  <TrueBrain> it seems to think I don't want it ..
10:23:20  <Celestar> petern: what about it?
10:23:57  <petern> It's just the curve and slope combined make it look not right.
10:24:10  <Celestar> yeah
10:24:12  <petern> TrueBrain: unstable?
10:24:13  <Celestar> you mean the ramp?
10:24:16  <petern> Yes
10:24:42  <TrueBrain> petern: no; and it only happens when I install an other package that depends on it, remove thatone, and run autoremove .. and not always, just in some weird cases ..
10:24:44  <TrueBrain> stupid system
10:25:08  <petern> lenny?
10:25:13  <petern> etch?
10:25:15  <petern> Hmm
10:25:17  <TrueBrain> lenny
10:25:38  * petern only runs etch, so has no encountered that.
10:25:41  * Celestar wonders why they still use sleepers on the new tracks from Munich to Augsburg
10:25:52  <blathijs> What is autoremove supposed to do? Sounds like it is broken by design :-)
10:26:02  <TrueBrain> I doubt it is lenny specific .. most likely my usage of the apt-system is somewhat wrong .. what ever
10:26:12  <petern> Oh
10:26:15  <TrueBrain> NoAI takes almost one minute longer to compile :$
10:26:30  <TrueBrain> (well, on a single core)
10:26:31  <petern> blathijs, autoremove removes packages were installed automatically along with something else
10:26:34  <blathijs> Hmm, the text from the manpage suggests that it should be removing it in your case
10:26:35  <TrueBrain> from 2m6 to 3m5
10:26:51  <petern> It's a great help for clearing up dependencies if you remove something.
10:26:55  <TrueBrain> (trunk vs noai)
10:27:07  <blathijs> petern: I usually use aptitude, which has that feature without a special command (for quite some time longer than that autoremove exists)
10:27:15  <blathijs> hardly ever have problems there
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10:27:47  <blathijs> TrueBrain: you should try to reproduce the problem, on a clean lenny system for example, and then file a bugreport :-)
10:27:55  <TrueBrain> problem with 'apt-get' is that you get this BIG list of things it will remove .... and that is absoutely unclear
10:28:02  <TrueBrain> aptitude ahs the problem that his screen is WAY too small ..
10:28:18  <TrueBrain> blathijs: absolutely no interest in doing that :p
10:29:05  <blathijs> Huh? Why does aptitude make your screen smaller?
10:29:06  <petern> When I tried using aptitide it went ahead and installed all the recommends without me asking it.
10:29:20  <TrueBrain> blathijs: did I say small_er_? No, I said: SMALL
10:29:32  <petern> TrueBrain, aptitude has a command line mode too.
10:29:35  <TrueBrain> it has, what, 10 lines of the upper part
10:29:39  <TrueBrain> where you can review stuff ...
10:29:45  <TrueBrain> really ... it annoys the hell out of me
10:29:54  <blathijs> TrueBrain: Smaller than your physical screen, I mean
10:30:03  <TrueBrain> petern: how useful ... :p
10:30:06  <petern> Apparently it is recommended over apt now. I dislike it.
10:30:09  <blathijs> But you mean that the division is not useful
10:30:14  <Celestar> Brianetta: why would anyone build sleeper-based tracks these days? :P
10:30:18  <TrueBrain> really, the best package manager I have seen so far, is emerge .. simple and efficient
10:30:34  <TrueBrain> blathijs: my physcial screen is 80x24
10:30:37  <TrueBrain> not much to do about that
10:30:39  <petern> I tried Gentoo. emerge fucked my system up.
10:30:48  <TrueBrain> and I am pretty sure aptitude uses all 24 liens .. just not as efficient as one might hope
10:30:54  <blathijs> TrueBrain: For me, aptitude just divides my screen into two equal parts, which does mean around 10 lines on a 80x24 terminal yes :-)
10:31:00  <petern> Well, okay, I must have done it because surely nobody would write something that would fuck it up.
10:31:03  <TrueBrain> petern: how can 'emerge' fuck up your system? :p
10:31:11  <blathijs> TrueBrain: Try the "D" key in aptitude
10:31:15  <petern> But for me it wouldn't do any sort of dependency upgrading.
10:31:19  <TrueBrain> blathijs: an in those 10 lines you need to NAVIGATE .. I mean, come on ...... :(
10:31:42  <TrueBrain> petern: Gentoo is nasty to install, as you need to do everything yourself .. easy to fuck up on many many places :)
10:31:58  <TrueBrain> but, if it is running, emerge rarely makes mistakes (2 times a year or so)
10:32:10  <TrueBrain> and at least gives you a clear dep-tree, and what is hapening where ..
10:32:15  <petern> It left tons of packages out of date :(
10:32:16  <blathijs> Besides, aptitude also works fine on the commandline (ie, like emerge, or does emerge have a UI now?)
10:32:19  <TrueBrain> emerge -uavND world ;)
10:32:24  <petern> Yes, I did.
10:32:26  <TrueBrain> you need to know that command ... :p
10:32:42  <petern> It did one or two things, but not every thing.
10:32:44  <TrueBrain> wouldn't know, I use CLI for package management where possible
10:33:04  <TrueBrain> petern: and if that fails, something went wrong in the init, and emerge -uavND system, fixes it 90% of the time :)
10:33:16  <petern> The install guide I used used colour codes to show optional bits, i.e. "do it this way" was green and "or do it this way" was red.
10:33:20  <petern> Unfortunately it was a plain text file.
10:33:28  <TrueBrain> (if you start with 2006.0 and upgrade directly to 2008.0, things break .. :p)
10:33:37  <petern> So there was no indication of what should be done.
10:33:47  <petern> I used it a few years ago.
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10:33:53  <TrueBrain> hahahha :)
10:34:21  <petern> Anyway, Debian is the only thing I'll run on servers.
10:34:28  <petern> Well, Linux servers anyway.
10:34:29  <TrueBrain> blathijs: 'D' makes it better, but .... well ... lack of clear documentation makes that impossible to know :p
10:34:40  <DJNekkid> the first sound useing action 11, is 00 80 right?
10:34:49  <TrueBrain> I sadly enough currentyl need to manage both Windows Server 2008, and Fedora Core 7 .. bah :p
10:34:52  <DJNekkid> for use in the var10 block?
10:35:08  <petern> Pardon?
10:35:19  <blathijs> TrueBrain: You could have tried the ? or F1 keys to find that command
10:35:30  <petern> The first sound is clearly 00 00
10:35:40  <TrueBrain> blathijs: yeah .. sure ...
10:35:42  <TrueBrain> like with screen
10:35:46  <TrueBrain> read through the manual!!
10:35:48  <TrueBrain> still you get lost .. :p
10:35:49  <petern> Why would you start at 0x8000?
10:35:58  <TrueBrain> sorry, if software REQUIRES to read the manual, the software is broken by design :)
10:36:12  <DJNekkid> "Values from 0 to 72 (dec) are TTD's built-in sound effects, values beyond that refer to the sounds from Action 11"
10:36:32  <TrueBrain> anyway ... what was I planning for this beautiful day ...
10:36:51  <petern> Yes.
10:36:57  <DJNekkid> hmm
10:37:08  <DJNekkid> i guess its dec73 thats the first one then ...
10:37:13  <petern> What does 0x8000 have to do with that? And what's a var10 block?
10:38:00  <DJNekkid> var10 is what is needed in front of a few callbacks, 33 and 36 amongst others
10:38:10  <blathijs> TrueBrain: I'm curious as to how you prefer to use cli software, without reading documentation... But well, let's just say you're not much of an aptitude user :-)
10:39:27  <petern> So you mean testing varaction2 variable 10.
10:39:38  <petern> Then 00 00 is the first sound effect.
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10:40:28  <petern> To signify it is a callback, you add the 0x8000, but that is not part of the value.
10:41:58  <petern> Hmm, dedicated servers use a fair bit of CPU time even when paused :o
10:42:13  <petern> I guess it's all those queries.
10:43:38  <DJNekkid> hmm...
10:43:53  <petern> Oh, it's a design flaw :o
10:43:55  <Ammler> is it possible to fix the IP for userspace on a server with 64 different IPs, like server_bind_ip but for everything.
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10:44:58  <Ammler> now we have 3 different IPs for ottd, ap and web.
10:45:48  <DJNekkid>
10:46:01  <DJNekkid> bah, 2 links
10:46:03  <DJNekkid>
10:47:33  <Ammler> dear TrueBrain, maybe SysOp knows something about?
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10:48:40  <petern> And you want them to do what?
10:48:50  <petern> Are you talking about websites, or general applications?
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10:49:48  <Ammler> petern: the problem might be autopilot (tcl)
10:50:11  <petern> DJNekkid, your sound will be at 73.
10:50:19  <petern> Ammler, why?
10:50:31  <DJNekkid> so, 73 00 ?
10:50:35  <DJNekkid> or 73 80?
10:50:41  <petern> I don't know what network communication autopilot does.
10:50:43  <petern> DJNekkid, neither.
10:50:50  <petern> It's decimal.
10:50:53  <Ammler> not possible to bind it to a ip,
10:51:07  <DJNekkid> \w73 then ? ;)
10:51:09  <petern> The value is 0x0049, so you need to put in "49 80"
10:51:30  <DJNekkid> ahh :)
10:52:37  <petern> Ammler, I mean, what bit of it talks TCP/IP?
10:53:06  <Ammler> autopilot does IRC
10:53:29  <Ammler> well, it is not really nescesary, was just wondering
10:53:45  <petern> Right, so you want to fix the IRC client's source address.
10:53:55  <Ammler> the hostmaks, yes.
10:54:11  <Ammler> for identify
10:54:27  <petern> No, a source address is not a hostmask.
10:55:05  <Ammler> depense from where you look, doesn0t?
10:55:10  <petern> No it doesn't.
10:55:29  <petern> Only if you're an idiot.
10:55:33  <Ammler> :-)
10:55:39  <petern> Although that's quite believable.
10:55:53  <Ammler> well, I mean the address you get if you whois someone.
10:55:56  <petern> A hostmask is a *mask* that matches a *host*
10:56:08  <Ammler> yes.
10:56:23  <petern> When you /whois someone, you do not get a hostmask.
10:56:28  <Ammler> and to match the host, I would like to keep it constant
10:56:30  <petern> You get a nick!user@hostname
10:56:43  <Ammler> yeah, sorry.
10:57:03  <Ammler> but if the hostname changes, I need to change the mask
10:57:05  <petern> Anyway, as nobody uses tcl these days, I cannot find information on mod_irc.
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10:58:57  <petern> Hmm, maybe mod_irc is part of autopilot anyway.
10:59:08  <Ammler> it is
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11:00:20  <Ammler> well, I guess, it is :-)
11:00:39  <petern> Yeah, the irc part isn't.
11:00:47  <petern> Doesn't look like it supports setting the source address :/
11:02:11  <Ammler> hmm, well, we could set the mask to match the whole net.
11:02:38  <petern> hostmasks don't support CIDR though.
11:02:50  <petern> (Do they?)
11:03:34  <Ammler> something like ?
11:04:14  <petern> Right.
11:05:14  <Ammler> oh, only 6
11:05:22  <petern> Hmm?
11:05:28  <Ammler> for 64 ips.
11:05:33  <DJNekkid> hmm, still no sound tho...
11:06:33  <petern> For a block of 64 the it would be /26.
11:06:41  <petern> +n
11:07:02  <SpComb> source-address-selection algorithms <3
11:07:04  <Ammler> oh
11:07:15  <SpComb> it might be tweakable via iproute
11:07:36  <TrueBrain> [12:39] <blathijs> TrueBrain: I'm curious as to how you prefer to use cli software, without reading documentation... But well, let's just say you're not much of an aptitude user :-) <- good software doesn't need documentation to makes itself clear. When you need to read a docuement, it means it is too complicated for any average user
11:07:36  <SpComb> you could set it to preferr some specific source address for certain destinations
11:07:44  <SpComb> e.g. irc servers
11:07:57  <Noldo> TrueBrain: you are an average user?
11:07:58  <Ammler> SpComb: but I fear only serverwide
11:08:01  <SpComb> but that's a global system-level policy change
11:08:11  <Ammler> :-)
11:08:23  <SpComb> you need to have your application code bind to a specific port for the outgoing connections
11:08:23  <Brianetta> "When you need to read a docuement, it means it is too complicated for any average user" <- Computers *are* too complicated for any average user.
11:08:32  <TrueBrain> Ammler: in general it is not possible to make a userspace ip bind .. as that is the primary IP :)
11:08:35  * petern attempts to squeeze 4 racks into 3.
11:08:36  <TrueBrain> but: use vservers
11:08:39  <SpComb> it's not very complicated to do, but many applications omit support for that
11:09:16  <SpComb> it might be simpler to just add in a call to `bind` in your application code than hack it via vserver
11:10:04  <SpComb> hmm... vserver came with some util that affected things like binding to IP addresses
11:10:22  <SpComb> kind of similar to chroot, but for network devices
11:10:50  * petern wonders how close lenny is to release.
11:10:53  <TrueBrain> 'hack it via vserver', HAHAHAHAHA
11:10:56  <TrueBrain> you so missed the point
11:11:05  <Ammler> vserver is indeed nice idea
11:11:11  <TrueBrain> LOL! That is most likely the worst description of vserver I have ever read .. :p
11:11:11  <FauxFaux> petern: HAHAHAHAHAHAH
11:11:15  <petern> :(
11:11:23  <FauxFaux> 06/12:11:15 < BTS> FauxFaux: There are 259 release-critical bugs in the testing distribution. See
11:11:36  <TrueBrain> Ammler: with vserver you directly have a safe split of those services
11:11:36  <Noldo> petern: it's about 270 rc's away
11:11:43  <petern> Boo...
11:11:50  <Ammler> petern: thanks for correction, stupid me looked from wrong side... :-)
11:11:53  <TrueBrain> both security-wise, as network-wise, as resource-wise
11:11:56  <TrueBrain> solves all your problems :)
11:12:01  <TrueBrain> either way: good day all, got to go :)
11:12:12  <petern> My (4 year old) server does not run properly with etch's kernel.
11:12:13  <SpComb> `chbind --ip <IP address> <command > <args>`
11:12:30  <SpComb> so you can just use vserver's network utils to do that
11:12:31  <petern> It works fine with lenny's kernel, but the vserver stuff is different :(
11:12:53  <FauxFaux> petern: Etchnhalf kernel?#
11:13:17  <petern> That doesn't work either, and there is no etchnhalf vserver kernel anyway.
11:13:18  <FauxFaux> Oh, if it's vserver any kernel change will probably screw you.
11:13:25  <FauxFaux> :)
11:13:46  <petern> I guess that's why there is no etchnhalf vserver :)
11:14:13  <SpComb> Ammler: so if you don't want to modify the code, you can just run the application under chbind
11:14:43  <petern> The lenny kernel vserver does run, but the settings are slightly different. This causes it to not install properly. It'll run, but it won't have finished :(
11:15:39  <petern> chbind: vc_set_ipv4root(): Function not implemented
11:15:54  <petern> It won't work on its own.
11:16:35  <petern> Oh
11:16:39  <Ammler> bash: chbind: command not found
11:16:41  <petern> sudo /usr/sbin/chbind --nid 1 --ip ./openttd -D
11:16:46  <petern> dbg: [net] Listening on
11:16:47  <petern> Hah
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11:23:36  <SpComb> Ammler: you'll need to install ssome vserver package or other
11:24:25  <Ammler> well, I will suggest it to the server owner :-)
11:24:48  <Ammler> maybe setup a vserver for could be a option too.
11:24:58  <SpComb> and it'll probably require some semi-modern kernel
11:24:58  <SpComb> so if you're running 2.4 or somesuch, it might not be possible
11:25:21  <Ammler> oh, he is running debian :-(
11:26:36  <Ammler> 2.6.18
11:27:02  <Ammler> not that _old_ _)
11:27:18  <TrueBrain> util-vserver requires a vserver kernel; chbind is part of util-vserver
11:27:30  <TrueBrain> so you need the vserver kernel loaded before you can use any of the tools
11:27:43  <TrueBrain> all sane OSes have the vserver kernel as option
11:28:03  <Ammler> is that xen?
11:28:21  <TrueBrain> xen is a completely different way of virutalization
11:28:26  <TrueBrain> vserver and openvz are on the same level
11:28:28  <SpComb> no, xen and vserver are two different things
11:28:35  <TrueBrain> kvm is on an other level
11:28:38  <SpComb> 2.6.18 doesn't have xen in mainline
11:28:44  <TrueBrain> and xen is comparible to kvm (kind of, not really)
11:28:48  <Ammler> vserver can only virtualize other linuxes then?
11:29:12  <Ammler> just a better chroot?
11:29:22  <blathijs> Ammler: vserver can virtualize any userspace that can run on a linux kernel :-)
11:29:32  <TrueBrain> it is a fancy chroot, just I won't call it that
11:29:37  <blathijs> Ammler: Since it virtualizes userspace only, there is still only a single kernel
11:29:56  <TrueBrain> Ammler: vserver shares the kernel (which makes it much faster than, say, Xen)
11:30:04  <SpComb> vserver extends the chroot concept and uses kernel contexts to do "virtualisation"
11:30:06  <TrueBrain>
11:30:09  <SpComb> although perhaps containers is a better term
11:30:27  <TrueBrain> vserver == Linux-Vserver (its original name)
11:31:08  <Ammler> well, maybe he does already support vservers :-)
11:31:28  <Ammler> can I see that with aname?
11:31:31  <Ammler> uname
11:31:32  <TrueBrain> uname -a will tell you
11:32:10  <TrueBrain> (Well, not always, but any sane sysop will have it visible :p)
11:32:35  <TrueBrain> 'uname -a' yes ;)
11:32:44  <TrueBrain> else, install util-vserver, and run: vserver-info
11:32:51  <SpComb> cat /proc/virtual/info
11:33:18  <SpComb> at least I assume that's vserver stuff
11:33:43  <Ammler> no virtual here
11:33:51  <Ammler> #1 SMP PREEMPT
11:33:54  <TrueBrain> I believe openvz uses that too
11:35:01  <TrueBrain> that is a special kernel :p
11:35:04  <Ammler> but if vserver isn't much additional performance usage, he might think about.
11:35:29  <TrueBrain> I like it, as it makes things a bit more secure
11:35:40  <TrueBrain> take OpenTTD .. if Apache goes out to play again, it only takes down all www-stuff
11:35:48  <TrueBrain> the compile-farm is not affected
11:35:54  <TrueBrain> or when WT2 thinks about consuming all his memory
11:35:57  <TrueBrain> only WT2 crashes
11:36:10  <TrueBrain> makes my world a little bit more simple ;)
11:36:22  <Ammler> :-P
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11:36:37  <TrueBrain> above that, there is no way to reach WT2 from the outside world
11:36:49  <TrueBrain> (it is on a local IP)
11:37:11  <TrueBrain> oh well, my second try to leave, I just missed my train, so here is an other chance :)
11:37:14  <TrueBrain> bye all, good luck Ammler :)
11:37:23  <Ammler> TrueBrain: thanks
11:37:27  * SpComb almost managed to miss his train
11:37:44  <SpComb> I walked out of the train station and started wondering what train it was that was sitting there at the platform
11:39:16  * Ammler is playing around with xfce Desktop
11:40:20  <Ammler> nice idea with those "docks"
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11:58:46  <petern> vserver is nice.
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12:09:15  <SpComb> it has its place alongside things like xen
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12:15:18  * FauxFaux hearts xen.
12:16:25  <welshdragon> FauxFaux, it's <3
12:17:21  <FauxFaux> xen ❥ /me.
12:21:56  <Celestar>
12:21:59  <Celestar> heh
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12:24:14  <Celestar> hm.
12:24:46  <Celestar> a Big Boy needed up to 25 tons of coal per hour. That's about 7kg per second. were they fed manually?
12:29:34  <ccfreak2k> It all seems so simple from the comfortable OpenTTD interface.
12:30:04  <FauxFaux> O_o
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12:31:31  <Celestar> ccfreak2k: yeah ;)
12:31:42  <Doorslammer> Automatic I think
12:31:43  <Celestar> the labelling of the valves is impressive (=
12:32:11  <Celestar> <= I kind of prefer this :P
12:33:59  <petern> There's still a lot of butons on that...
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12:36:45  <Celestar> yeah, mainly for querying the train status and the "electronic timetable"
12:37:29  <Celestar> I still wonder whether the big steam engines had automatic "feeding" or if there were like 4 people busy shovelling coal
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12:38:53  <Celestar> WTH
12:40:17  <Celestar> so a Big Boy needed up to 25000 kg of coal per hour. Assuming 1kg of coal is around 25 MJ/mh, that's a thermal input of 625 000MJ per hour, or 173 MW
12:40:30  <Celestar> that's an efficiency of like 5%
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12:49:32  <petern> Hmm
12:49:45  <petern> So do I want the security of vserver, or the ease of use of ... not using it?
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12:53:27  <SpComb> petern: depends on what measure of security this is
13:05:00  <SpComb> PigSQL
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13:17:40  <petern> Just general "keep things separate" security.
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13:19:06  <blathijs> It can also make things easier to manage (ie, use a new vserver for some testing, without messing up your existing setup)
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13:23:39  <petern> So far I've found that newvserver messes with the hosts /etc/motd, which is a bit odd.
13:25:04  <petern> I don't know why, though.
13:25:29  <petern> Maybe I'll ask in #debian :)
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13:39:48  <Belugas> hello
13:40:08  <glx> @openttd port
13:40:08  <DorpsGek> glx: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication and UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound)
13:41:34  <mcbane> george dont hang around here somtime by chance?
13:42:45  <Belugas> no, nor in #tycoon.  he does not do IRC at all
13:43:20  <glx> we are lucky ;)
13:43:37  <mcbane> ok =|
13:44:46  <Belugas> hehehe ;)
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14:48:13  <petern> Gah, I have to update my server to lenny to let vserver work properly :(
14:49:18  <blathijs> I'm running vserver on etch, so it can work in general I think?
14:49:40  <blathijs> though I think I might have compiled my own kernel with a newer kernel patch, though
14:50:10  <petern> Yes, it works, but etch's kernel does not work properly on my server.
14:51:11  <blathijs> ah
14:52:08  <petern> Hmm, the OpenTTD dedicated server runs lenny...
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17:06:06  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: skidd13 * r14443 /trunk/ (6 files): -Change: Unify the delimiters used in config* and make*
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17:16:44  <Wolf01> hello
17:21:03  <Bjarni> hello Wolf01
17:21:14  <Wolf01> hi Bjarni!
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17:42:07  <ln> nw: dexter 3x02 720
17:45:57  <fjb> How can I tell a ./configure script where my lua installation is? I'm too stupid to compile anything C related...
17:46:31  <petern> Depends on the script. If it's a system-wide install it should be automatic.
17:47:14  <fjb> It only looks a a standard place for one Linux distribution.
17:47:30  <fjb> I set some shell varaibles:
17:47:34  <fjb> setenv CPPFLAGS -I/usr/local/include/lua50
17:47:56  <fjb> setenv LUA_EXEC /usr/local/bin/lua50
17:48:24  <petern> Uh
17:48:34  <ln> autoconf hurts you and people around you.
17:48:38  <petern> usually ./configure --with-lua=/usr/local/include/lua50
17:48:40  <petern> or something like that
17:48:41  <fjb> setenv LDFLAGS -L/usr/local/lib/lua5
17:48:53  <fjb> setenv LDFLAGS -L/usr/local/lib/lua50
17:49:09  <fjb> Ok, I will try that
17:51:20  <fjb> ./configure --with-lua=/usr/local/include/lua50 is not working
17:52:09  <fjb> With my environment variables set I get:
17:52:13  <fjb> checking for lua... /usr/local/bin/lua50
17:52:15  <fjb> ./configure: line 4968: test: -lt: unary operator expected
17:52:16  <fjb> checking for library containing lua_open... none required
17:52:18  <fjb> checking for library containing luaL_loadfile... no
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17:54:00  <fjb> ./configure --enable-lua=yes results in:
17:54:15  <fjb> checking for lua... /usr/local/bin/lua50
17:54:16  <fjb> ./configure: line 4968: test: -lt: unary operator expected
17:54:18  <fjb> checking for library containing lua_open... -llua
17:54:19  <fjb> checking for library containing luaL_loadfile... no
17:54:58  <fjb> But isn't lua_open and luaL_loadfile in the same lib?
17:55:55  <fjb> grep says:
17:55:59  <fjb> Binary file /usr/local/lib/lua50/ matches
17:56:00  <fjb> Binary file /usr/local/lib/lua50/liblualib.a matches
17:56:02  <fjb> Binary file /usr/local/lib/lua50/ matches
17:56:48  <fjb> So what am I doing wrong? It finds lua_open but not luaL_loadfile.
17:58:13  <Sacro> < fjb> So what am I doing wrong? <- spamming inanly
17:58:27  <fjb> Thank you for your help.
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18:00:43  <petern> --with-lua=/usr/local might be enough
18:00:51  <petern> Failing that, you could install it in a properly location :p
18:01:27  <petern> -ly
18:04:30  <fjb> This is not Linux. The location is proper for all other applications on this system.
18:05:05  <Sacro> what OS?
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18:06:42  <fjb> FreeBSD
18:07:03  <fjb>  --with-lua=/usr/local doesn't find lua
18:08:20  <fjb> setting CPPFLAGS and LDFLAGS finds lus, but only the functions from
18:08:52  <fjb> It doesn't find the functions from
18:09:11  <fjb> Stupid autoconf
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18:13:44  <petern> Does it say what version of Lua is expected?
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18:14:48  <ln> is there a degrading word for football/soccer in english?
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18:15:55  <petern> Yeah, "soccer" ;)
18:16:04  <fjb> I found lua50 in the configure script.
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18:17:00  <fjb> It is even more stupid. It finds out that it needs lualib, but then fails with:
18:17:04  <fjb> configure:5099: gcc -o conftest -g -O2 -I/usr/local/include/lua50 -L/usr/local/l
18:17:05  <fjb> ib/lua50 conftest.c -llualib -lm -ldl -llua  >&5
18:17:07  <fjb> /usr/bin/ld: cannot find -ldl
18:18:07  <fjb> So it apperently found the nedded llualib, but fails at -ldl, but complains about not finding lualib.
18:18:33  <fjb> But what is dl? Stupid script.
18:19:03  <petern> dl is for dynamic linking
18:19:10  <petern> you appear to have a linux-centric program :p
18:20:35  <fjb> Verry Linux centric. :-( There is only another version for Windows with mingw
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18:21:08  <fjb> So I have to find the -ldl thing in the configure script and delete that string.
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18:24:14  <fjb> That stupid dl thing was the problem. Thanks for your help, especially petern
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18:27:52  <fjb> The script lets you set the path to and name of wx-config, but later on hardcodes it...
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18:34:30  <Belugas> loving it... there is no component that does what i need...  so i've got to do it on my own
18:34:31  <Belugas> pffff
18:34:40  <Belugas> YEAH for GUIs!!!
18:35:34  <Sacro> our uni called "X Windowing system" a GUI :(
18:35:39  <MapperOG> You're talking about what right now?
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18:39:01  <Zuu> I guess Belugas is talking about delphi but I could be wrong.
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18:41:37  <fjb> Happy programming day. I love function name overloading in C++... :-(
18:42:15  * Zuu wish he was programming, but he is putting powerpoint slides into a recorded lecuture
18:43:10  <Sacro> Belugas: what ar eyou after?
18:43:14  <Belugas> Zuu is so right...
18:43:45  <Zuu> Belugas: On delphi or wish for programming? ;)
18:45:26  <Zuu> Now I have not looked on the jedi-project very much, but given that your delphi experience is longer than mine I guess you have tried that path.
18:47:49  <fjb> What does the following try to tell me?
18:47:52  <fjb> mainframe.cpp:93: error: conversion from `const char[4]' to `const wxString' is ambiguous
18:47:54  <fjb> /usr/local/include/wx-2.8/wx/string.h:693: note: candidates are: wxString::wxString(wxChar, size_t) <near match>
18:47:55  <fjb> /usr/local/include/wx-2.8/wx/string.h:682: note:                 wxString::wxString(int) <near match>
18:48:43  <fjb> Both have the same name and now the compiler can not decide which one is more wrong?
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18:56:45  <fjb> I bet they never compiles that piece of code before releasing it.
18:59:00  <glx> fjb: that's why explicit casts are a good thing
18:59:10  <Belugas> Zuu, on Delphi. I'm doing a face lift on our old app.  Hell...
18:59:46  <fjb> glx: And why overloading is not always helpful...
19:00:13  <glx> it is helpful but you need to be careful with types
19:00:56  <ln> fjb: you're trying to build against wx unicode build, and your mainframe.cpp was not meant for unicode build.
19:01:11  <ln> fjb: surround the string literal with wxT()
19:02:01  <fjb> ln, thank you. That stupid configure script explicitly looked for the unicode version, so I thought that is ok.
19:02:32  <fjb> I found the wxT() thing, they use it sometimes, but not always.
19:03:10  <ln> fjb: in upcoming wx 3.0 the use of wxT() is not required nor recommended anymore, they are using UTF-8 rather than wide characters.
19:03:46  <glx> good change
19:03:53  <ln> yeah
19:03:59  <fjb> It would be much easier if I would understand C++ better...
19:04:09  <glx> openttd uses the same thing
19:04:23  <fjb> How do I convert: m_nutList->SetItem(ix, 4, info->dist_hostname);
19:04:23  <glx> (except for windows API calls)
19:04:57  <fjb> m_nutList->SetItem(ix, 4, wxt(info->dist_hostname)); does not work
19:05:08  <fjb> wxT ofcourse...
19:05:45  <glx> wxT() is for string litterals
19:05:50  <ln> nope, it doesn't, because wxT is a preprocessor macro only, and it just adds something to the begin of what you give to it.
19:06:11  <ln> fjb: wxString(info->dist_hostname, wxConvUTF8)
19:06:35  <fjb> Ah. Thank you.
19:06:47  <glx> explicit cast ;)
19:07:30  <fjb> I don't mind anything as long as I get this compiled and wiorking.
19:08:03  <ln> explicit cast in that point would precisely make it compile and not work. :)
19:11:42  <fjb> m_nutList->SetItem(ix, 4, wxString(info->dist_hostname, wxConvUTF8)); is not compiling :-(
19:12:01  <fjb> mainframe.cpp:204: error: invalid conversion from `u_char*' to `const char*'
19:12:03  <fjb> mainframe.cpp:204: error:   initializing argument 1 of `wxString::wxString(const char*, const wxMBConv&, size_t)'
19:12:46  <fjb> I shuld switch to wx without unicode support...
19:13:07  <ln> err.. what's the type of info->dist_hostname?
19:13:16  <ln> u_char*, whatever that is?
19:13:36  <glx> I usually have 4 "versions", unicode (+debug) and ansi (+debug)
19:13:54  <ln> me too.
19:14:26  <ln> fortunately all of those can be compiled into separate dirs, so the source is needed only once.
19:14:56  <fjb> Don't know what it is... I switch to the version vithout unicode...
19:15:20  <glx> and I should update it (still using 2.8.5)
19:16:11  <glx> hmm double the versions (I forgot static/dynamic)
19:16:12  <ln> something odd happens to panels between 2.8.6 and 2.8.8.
19:16:59  <fjb> I'm having 2.8.8 and that stupid source wants 2.8.8. So there should be not that many problems.
19:18:13  <ln> if you have a panel with some controls in a scrolledwindow, in >2.8.6 the panel will briefly "jump" to non-scrolled position when the controls are clicked.  i haven't bothered to reproduce this in the samples, though.
19:20:40  <ln> glx: do you use wx for work or for fun, and what platforms?
19:20:54  <glx> for fun and I use wxMSW
19:21:17  <glx> didn't used it recently though
19:22:01  <ln> it's unfortunate how often one has to patch it in order to fix or enhance something.
19:27:18  <ln> ok, who else has been secretly using wxWidgets?
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19:42:31  <herojoker> hi
19:43:06  <TrueBrain> hello
19:43:07  <MapperOG> hi
19:43:28  <herojoker> how many grid fields of an industry building have to be in the catchment area of a train station to get material from it?
19:44:06  <MapperOG> herojoker: I think just one - but I don't know for sure
19:44:15  <MapperOG> (I also don't know if there's a percentage or something)
19:44:18  <herojoker> currently, when building a station, one sees what a station will accept but now what it 'll get
19:44:49  <Aali> you do in the latest nightlies
19:45:05  <herojoker> so, a list of connected [material providing] industries (before building) would be nice
19:45:32  <Aali> like i said, already done, its just not in any official release yet
19:45:37  <herojoker> ok :)
19:45:54  <herojoker> is it possible to see the catchment area also after building the object?
19:46:41  <Aali> just hold the preview over what you already built :P
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19:46:46  <Zuu> Aali: nightlies are as official as stable releases, the discussed feature should rather be said that it is not yet in a stable release than "not yet in an official release"
19:46:47  <Roel1982> hi all
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19:47:06  <Aali> Zuu: sure
19:47:12  <Roel1982> does anyone know at witch port openttd runs in multiplayer?
19:47:20  <Roel1982> when hosting game...
19:47:25  <TrueBrain> @openttd port
19:47:25  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication and UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound)
19:48:37  <petern> which
19:48:45  <Roel1982> tnx dorpsgek
19:48:45  <herojoker> Aali: i don't understand "hold the preview over ..." :( how do i do that?
19:48:54  <herojoker> (i'm a complete TT newbie)
19:50:24  <Aali> herojoker: preview = the outline you get under the mouse pointer when you're building something
19:51:12  <herojoker> oh ok...
19:51:41  <herojoker> i would have expected to be able to see the catchment area without calling the construction menu ^^
19:52:19  <herojoker> furthermore it would be nice if all catchment areas would be shown when building a new station
19:52:31  <Belugas> they are
19:52:43  <Belugas> just click on the button allowing it
19:53:30  <Aali> well you'll only get the catchment area of whatever you're building
19:54:00  <Aali> would be nice if you could see the entire stations catchment area
19:54:07  <Belugas> indeed, that's when you are realy needing it...
19:54:33  <herojoker> Aali: that's what i meant :)
19:55:17  <Aali> it would also be great if you could see which industries are actually covered by the catchment area, not just a list of cargo types
19:55:39  <herojoker> yep
19:56:04  <Aali> sure, you can work it out yourself with existing tools, but its tedious
19:56:15  <herojoker> or the reverse: for each industry a list of connected stations
19:58:19  <herojoker> arg, the game is a bit too fast for me... i get so many messages ^^
19:58:24  <Belugas> strange...just looking around, i can easily find all connected industries to a statuon...
19:58:33  <Belugas> or vice-versa :S
19:59:28  <Aali> Belugas: i guess it depends on how complex your stations are
19:59:45  <Belugas> true
19:59:53  <herojoker> Belugas: as a list/text or just visually?
20:00:01  <Belugas> visually
20:00:08  <herojoker> XD
20:00:48  <Aali> i usually play with the distant join patch, not so i can actually join distant stations, i just want to be able to build stations next to each other
20:01:17  <glx> ctrl build
20:01:49  <herojoker> mmh, wasn't there a grf which allows raising/lowering land with streets and rails on it?
20:02:04  <herojoker> or do you think that's a cheat? ^^
20:02:09  <glx> a grf can't do that
20:02:12  <Aali> glx: thats in trunk now?
20:02:24  <herojoker> glx: oh, ok
20:03:01  <glx> Aali: "adjacent station" is in trunk (dunno for 0.6.x)
20:03:16  <Aali> i did not now that
20:03:39  <Aali> *know
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20:08:22  <Aali> but hey, thats cool, saves you the hassle of using waypoints just to keep your passenger trains away from freight platforms
20:11:59  <herojoker> mmh, my train always immedeately leaves the depot :(
20:12:05  <herojoker> but it has no orders
20:12:13  <TrueBrain> don't start it yet
20:13:23  <TrueBrain> so don't start it yet!
20:14:28  <herojoker> ok, just realized that there seems to be a difference between setting the depot as a destination and using the depot button
20:14:46  <herojoker> it also had cargo
20:14:52  <Aali> indeed
20:15:24  <Aali> depot orders cannot make a train stop in the depot
20:15:34  <Aali> (without the right patch)
20:16:27  <herojoker> cool, first time driving with full cargo wagons -> loco broke in the middle of the tour
20:16:42  <herojoker> is there a button like "go to last view"?
20:17:10  <herojoker> so e.g. when i accidently click on a news and it brings me to a completely other point on the map, i'd like to return directly
20:18:37  <petern> hmm, asterisk on debian/lenny doesn't half have a lot of dependencies :o
20:18:55  <fjb> Ahhhhhhh, I hate wx...
20:19:11  <TrueBrain> fjb: then don't bother us with it :p
20:19:19  <Belugas> herojoker, look in Message History
20:19:48  <Belugas> button left to the big red ? in main toolbar
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20:20:05  <herojoker> yep, all messages are there...
20:20:36  <glx> Belugas: that wasnt his question ;)
20:20:43  <Belugas> ho?
20:20:47  <Belugas> ok... /e ducks
20:21:27  <glx> herojoker: there's no way to return where you were
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20:21:49  <glx> but it's funnier when you were building a track or landscaping
20:21:54  <Belugas> haaa... ok.. that...
20:22:23  <herojoker> ok :/
20:24:05  <herojoker> why is setting up the schedule not possible in pause mode? (but building vehicles and modifying schedule points is)
20:24:46  <Belugas> note that it's easy to compensate.  whenever you are about to check obn something that could potentially transport you far from where you are, jsut create an extra viewport
20:25:48  <Belugas> then, just "Paste From Viewport" and you're back
20:25:58  <herojoker> ok :D
20:26:53  <herojoker> oh man, my native language is german but the english version seems much more understandable..
20:27:02  <Bjarni> lol
20:27:19  <Bjarni> I thought the German translation were one of the good ones :s
20:28:07  <herojoker> the meaning of Paste from/Copy to  viewport is clear, but Aus/In  Zusatzansicht is just bad...
20:28:45  <DJNekkid> is CB33 supported in Openttd?
20:30:08  <herojoker> but overall the german translation seems ok :)
20:30:15  <glx> DJNekkid: it is
20:30:40  <Belugas> DJNekkid :
20:31:27  <petern> it is?
20:31:32  <Belugas> maybe not up to date,but quite close to it
20:32:19  <herojoker> is there a way to rotate the view?
20:32:22  <petern> oh, yes
20:32:30  <petern> i was thinking of the ambient sound callback
20:32:31  <glx> herojoker: no
20:32:44  <Belugas> yes it is, petern :) You wrote it ;)
20:32:45  <herojoker> ok, then i'll use the transparency settings :)
20:32:52  <glx> because there's only 1 view for each buildings
20:33:08  <petern> yeah, i was thinking of 144.
20:33:17  <glx> 144 is not supported :)
20:33:26  <petern> jesus
20:33:41  * Belugas wonders which grf features the 144 cb...
20:33:58  * glx wonders the same
20:34:07  <Belugas> :)
20:34:38  <petern> installing the package "asterisk" on lenny wants to install a full compiler environment, tons of dev libraries, odbc stuff... and kernel driver source
20:34:42  <petern> which is bloody stupid :(
20:34:50  <Belugas> let's modify the nightly, and as soon as a grf tries to set it up, make it crash with a big red box showing the grf file name ^_^
20:34:52  <herojoker> is it possible to reorder the orders?
20:34:57  <petern> i'd compile it myself but i'd only have to install a full compiler environment to do that...
20:35:14  * Bjarni wonders if the text in the viewport window should be changed to make it more clear
20:35:37  * Belugas wonders if it's not too early to go home
20:35:55  <DJNekkid> then i find it wierd why my CB33 wont work ... and it's even doublechecked with DaleStan  :)
20:35:59  <Bjarni> if you read the Danish translation, then it looks like the meaning of the buttons is switched
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20:36:41  <Belugas> DJNekkid, the best way to know if your grf is fine, is to make it run on TTDP
20:37:18  <DJNekkid> well, the entire grf is made for Open with out-of-range vehicle IDs...
20:37:48  <herojoker> hey cool, just noticed that in windowed mode the resolution is not fixed :D
20:38:00  <Bjarni> I have known that for ages :)
20:38:06  <Bjarni> but yeah, it's really nice
20:38:12  <Belugas> DJNekkid: extract the noisy part and make one compatible with ttdp, i gues it would not take you too long
20:38:24  <Bjarni> I don't think the window size have ever been fixed
20:38:26  <DJNekkid> true enough :)
20:38:37  <Zuu> Belugas: Did you take a look on my patch some week ago? Or did my warnings scare you to much? ;)
20:38:47  <Belugas> her...
20:38:47  <Zuu> (the widget focus patch)
20:38:49  <Belugas> honestly?
20:38:55  <Belugas> i forgot it all
20:38:57  <Belugas> completleyl
20:39:06  <SpComb> that's what she said
20:39:11  <Belugas> i'm having a hell of a workload at work
20:39:18  <Zuu> Ok, I've made two updates since I talked to you about it.
20:39:25  <herojoker> mmh, are trains self repairing?
20:39:27  <Belugas> ok
20:39:32  <Zuu> Ok, that is just fine. I've been bussy the last week too...
20:39:45  <Bjarni> herojoker: that depends on what you mean by self repairing
20:40:01  <Bjarni> if they break down, then yes they will move on their own after a while
20:40:07  <herojoker> ok
20:40:08  <Belugas> Zuu: thing is, i've got ono clue when i'll be free again, even at home.
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20:40:35  <Belugas> and i have quite a few projects for Open that need to be finished... :S
20:40:45  <Bjarni> looks like I share a problem with Belugas then :(
20:40:47  <herojoker> hmm, i really need 2 screens...
20:41:12  <Belugas> i guess, Bjarni.
20:41:28  <Bjarni> Belugas: do you know any solution to that kind of problem?
20:41:28  <Belugas> herojoker, i do, and it rocks :)
20:41:28  <Zuu> Belugas: Ok, might bug someone else, through that will probably be not this week.
20:41:35  <Zuu> though*
20:42:12  <herojoker> Belugas: is it possible to let OTTD use both?
20:42:16  <Bjarni> <herojoker> hmm, i really need 2 screens... <-- if you have two screens, then you can make the window really wide to cover both monitors :D
20:42:18  <Belugas> Zuu : there are at least two people you can "bug" about that, but i doubt they like to be bugged either way :)
20:42:29  <Zuu> hehe :p
20:42:35  <Belugas> Bjarni, apart not been involved in coding, no
20:42:50  <Belugas> herojoker, try and yoyu will see
20:43:00  <Zuu> Guess nobody really like to get buged..
20:43:12  <Belugas> Zuu, no, not really
20:43:29  <Zuu> Coding on your own stuff is much more fun :D
20:43:31  <herojoker> Belugas: ok, shall i setup an amazon wishlist, so that you can buy me the screen? ^^
20:43:34  <Belugas> and now, i'm bugging home
20:43:40  <Bjarni> Zuu: ensure that your bug... err patch is really for committing and that it have been tested real good
20:43:50  <Bjarni> also ensure that it has the correct amount of comments
20:43:59  <Bjarni> and apply to coding style and so on
20:44:09  <Bjarni> then it might be a bit easier to make people look at it
20:44:24  <Zuu> Bjarni: Yea, I've been looking over the comments. but there can always be more work to it.
20:44:28  <Bjarni> but there is no easy way to ensure it though :/
20:44:37  <Belugas> Bjarni, i trust Zuu for that.  He is doing some good stuff, very innovative, should I add :)
20:44:38  <Sacro_> BJARNI!
20:44:44  * Belugas is gone
20:44:53  <herojoker> hmm, rounded curves are missing :(
20:45:15  <Bjarni> good... Belugas just confirmed my impression of Zuu. Now all you have to do is to live up to that impression :)
20:45:27  <Zuu> Bjarni: Hehe
20:45:28  <Belugas> herojoker, if your playing locomotion yes, but you are playing openttd.  no rounded curvs in here
20:45:34  * Belugas is really gone now!
20:45:51  <Aali> maybe he's talking about roads
20:46:14  <herojoker> Belugas: never played that ^^
20:46:20  <herojoker> have you played simutrans?
20:47:26  <Bjarni> I tried it once
20:47:32  <Bjarni> it has some nice features
20:47:56  <Bjarni> it's like a collection of nice features that somehow fails to work together to produce a nice game
20:48:05  <Bjarni> I think the biggest problem is the user interface
20:48:21  <ln> the things are too small
20:48:50  <Bjarni> ln: please put your pants on again and stop talking about it
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20:49:59  <herojoker> do you know a simulation which uses more realistic proportions? the 'cities' in TT/simutrans are so small...
20:50:14  <herojoker> and quite near to each other
20:50:38  <Aali> cities in TT don't have to be small
20:50:49  <Aali> thats just the map generators fault
20:51:29  <Aali> it tries to make playable maps, not realistic ones :P
20:51:44  <petern> right, i figured out how to make apt ignore Recommends
20:51:53  <herojoker> :) i know, that's why i've asked for another app
20:52:09  <herojoker> i was just wondering whether such sims exist
20:53:00  <herojoker> has it been estimated how big a block would be in reality? (in meters^2)
20:54:53  <Aali> you mean a tile?
20:55:01  <Bjarni> I think so
20:55:22  <herojoker> yes, tile
20:55:29  <Bjarni> but if we make it that realistic then a tile would have to be rather small if it only allows one railroad track
20:55:47  <Bjarni> meaning certain stuff like ships would be rather big
20:55:55  <herojoker> that's right
20:55:59  <Zuu> Bjarni: I'll make a list of things that I think are most questionable in the design of the patch so the person who will review it can start looking there.
20:56:01  <Bjarni> and fill way too many tiles
20:56:25  <herojoker> in such games i usually see those graphics only as represenations
20:56:44  <Bjarni> Zuu: good idea. A well written description of the intended purpose would also be nice ;)
20:57:04  <Bjarni> herojoker: and that's the way you should think about it
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20:57:37  <Zuu> I think some of the purpose is written in the flyspray, but indeed it become culettered after many replies etc.
20:57:49  <herojoker> again, i was just wondering whether there actually is a sim (available to the public) where you can build 500km long tracks :)
20:57:52  *** Wezz6400_ [] has quit []
20:57:57  <herojoker> (with realistic sizes)
20:58:38  <Wolf01> 'night
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20:59:21  <Zuu> A small guide of what have been done could probably also help. Since reading a patch file from top down is not always the best way to understand what it does.
20:59:56  <Bjarni> herojoker: MS train sim might be able to handle that if your computer is powerful enough
21:00:31  <ln> Rail Simulator is something newer, from the people who made MSTS.
21:00:48  <Bjarni> oh right
21:01:04  <Bjarni> the question is which one can handle the longest track
21:01:22  <Bjarni> I don't know if trainz is any good at this either
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21:07:58  <Bjarni> actually I wonder why such a length would be important
21:08:20  <Bjarni> I'm perfectly happy with distances below 50 km
21:08:31  <ln> as irl
21:08:38  <Bjarni> yeah
21:09:19  <Bjarni> it allows you to be able to learn the tracks
21:09:25  <Bjarni> like every curve and hill
21:10:07  <ln> the famous hills of denmark
21:10:51  <Bjarni> actually we have quite a number of them
21:11:00  <Bjarni> on the cheaply built railroads
21:11:18  <DJNekkid> lol ... "the daily double" (horse trotting or something) did turn on the TV ... a horse did have the name "nice bender"
21:11:29  <Bjarni> :D
21:11:51  <Bjarni> our hills is like up, down, up, level, up, down.... you get the idea
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21:14:00  <herojoker> Bjarni: such lengths would be important for a realistic post transportation system
21:14:58  <herojoker> e.g. if i wanted to simulate the whole post transportation network of germany
21:15:21  <herojoker> but that's not a game anymore ^^
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21:17:06  <Eddi|zuHause2> hm... i have an anomaly in my music database
21:17:28  <Eddi|zuHause2> most of the LotR soundtrack pieces have a playcount between 30 and 50
21:17:38  <Eddi|zuHause2> but one has a playcount of 600
21:17:51  *** Sacro_ is now known as Sacro
21:18:02  <Zuu> herojoker: Why not get into transportation work field instead of simulating it. Or well the fist does not exclude the later... :)
21:18:31  <Eddi|zuHause2> which makes it the 3rd most played in my current playlist
21:18:43  <Eddi|zuHause2> after a piece with 1600 and one with 800
21:19:07  <ln> and the one is The bridge of Khazad'dum.
21:19:18  <Eddi|zuHause2> hm, actually not
21:19:29  <Eddi|zuHause2> it's Forth Eorlingas
21:19:29  <ln> damn, my palantír is broken then.
21:19:30  <Zuu> Since simulation is a heavily used tool in traffic enginering for example.
21:21:06  <Eddi|zuHause2> it's Khazad-dûm btw
21:21:19  <herojoker> Zuu: yes, that's an option :) i'm currently studying mathematics (subsidiary subject: computer science), so perhaps it'll be even possible for me to be active in this field :)
21:21:58  <Eddi|zuHause2> you can have almost any job with that kind of degree ;)
21:22:17  <Zuu> mathematics is a good entry point. A friend took mathematics first before she moved to the traffic enginering program I am taking.
21:22:47  <herojoker> i'm now starting my master studies in bonn :)
21:22:53  <Zuu> The traffic models can become quite complex, so good understanding is of good use.
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21:23:16  <Zuu> good understanding of math*
21:23:22  <ln> Eddi|zuHause2: oh, yes.  and the Babylon 5 author Scrazynzskjdfksjd cleverly named the one dangerous place "Za'ha'dum".
21:23:53  <Eddi|zuHause2> i have never watched the full series...
21:24:32  <herojoker> i heard it's quite good
21:24:44  <ln> it's okayish, but not as good as people say.
21:24:49  <Zuu> herojoker: You've got a bachlor first?  (I will only get a master, no bachlor since they just recently changed the organization and I only have two year left to my degree, if I take everything on time ;) )
21:24:58  <ln> and it copies many details from LotR.
21:25:21  <herojoker> Zuu: yes, i'm currently finishing my bachelor thesis
21:26:02  <Eddi|zuHause2> hey... i have like... -2 years left if i take everything on time :p
21:26:26  <Eddi|zuHause2> "Regelstudienzeit ist ÃŒberbewertet"
21:26:31  <herojoker> *g*
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21:27:29  <herojoker> unfortunately bafög support is bound to it, Eddi
21:28:25  <Zuu> Our "master" used to be 4,5 year without a bachlor half way degree. But is changing to the bachlor + master system of 5 years in total as used in most other countries.
21:28:43  <Zuu> (in Europe at least)
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21:29:47  <herojoker> now that i live in a dormitory i realize that listening to music loudly is a luxury
21:29:52  <herojoker> :(
21:30:45  <Eddi|zuHause2> herojoker: there are worse problems than bafög... like some idiots actually decided on studying fees for everybody who is more than 2 years overdue
21:31:09  <Eddi|zuHause2> my bafög was like 10€ in the end ;)
21:31:18  <herojoker> especially because in orchestral pieces i also want to here the rearmost string...
21:31:21  <herojoker> eddi: :-(
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21:32:36  <Eddi|zuHause2> it was more in the beginning, but when siblings finish studying your bafög goes down because the base income of your parents gets divided by less siblings
21:33:21  <herojoker> oh, i won't have this problem ^^
21:36:47  <herojoker> but instead of this i have other problems caused by bureaucracy... mmh, hungry now (wow, we're really OT)
21:37:00  <Eddi|zuHause2> example: parent's income boils down to 600€ "spare" for supporting students, 3 siblings are to be considered, so each one gets a share of 200€, bafög limit is 350€, so each sibling gets 350€-200€ = 150€. now one sibling finishes studying, so the 600€ get divided by two, so now the two siblings get 350€-300€=50€ bafög. so instead of 3*150€=450€ the family only gets 2*50€=100€ support
21:37:56  <Sacro> wtf
21:38:01  <herojoker> hehe
21:38:18  <herojoker> (i was saying that to Sacro)
21:38:19  <Sacro> Eddi|zuHause2: YOU BROKE MY TERMINAL D:
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21:38:43  <herojoker> Eddi: there is elternunabhÀngiges bafög
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21:39:00  *** ben_ is now known as Sacro
21:39:06  <Sacro> bah
21:39:19  <Eddi|zuHause2> herojoker: you only get that if you lived alone for 3 years before studying
21:39:26  <Eddi|zuHause2> Sacro: €€?
21:39:30  <herojoker> oh ok
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21:41:06  <Eddi|zuHause2> the system is really broken in that aspect... the divisor should be the total number of children, not the number of children eligible for bafög
21:41:16  <Sacro> wtf
21:41:19  <Sacro> oh, no utf8
21:41:35  <glx> Sacro: ö ?
21:41:42  <herojoker> À
21:41:48  <Eddi|zuHause2> ł
21:41:51  <herojoker> :)
21:41:59  <glx> herojoker: your client failed
21:42:01  <Eddi|zuHause2> ŋ
21:42:07  <Sacro> yay
21:42:09  <Sacro> fix'd it
21:42:20  <Sacro> £
21:42:21  <Sacro> yay
21:42:22  <glx> ばか
21:42:23  <herojoker> c'mon, that's not a good test
21:42:26  <Eddi|zuHause2> damn, i need new ways to break Sacro's terminal
21:42:29  <herojoker> ?
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21:43:02  <herojoker> mmh, my client can't display that...
21:43:03  <Zuu> Eddi|zuHause2: What language is "bafög", tried with both german and whatever the language of the nederlands is called in english in google translate.
21:43:14  <herojoker> Zuu: german
21:43:17  <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: it's an abbreviation
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21:43:32  <Zuu> Eddi|zuHause: Ok, what does it stand for?
21:43:37  <herojoker> Zuu: Bundesausbildungsförderungsgesetz
21:43:59  <glx> herojoker: write in utf8 please
21:44:07  <Eddi|zuHause> %BB%Bundes %BA%Busbildungs%Bfö%Brderungs %BG%Besetz
21:44:11  <Eddi|zuHause> bÀh
21:44:22  <Eddi|zuHause> Bundes Ausbildungsförderungs Gesetz
21:45:09  <herojoker> mmh, do you know a good irc client which is also free?
21:45:23  <Eddi|zuHause> i use Konversation
21:45:35  <Zuu> herojoker: Xchat
21:45:37  <glx> I use KVIrc
21:45:43  <herojoker> i'm currently bound to winxp
21:45:54  <Zuu> Depending on the amonut of freeness you need if you are on windows.
21:45:54  <glx> I'm on winXP too
21:45:56  <herojoker> Zuu: ok, i'll try that
21:46:08  <Eddi|zuHause> they are working on a windows/kde4 version currently, i believe
21:46:47  <herojoker> oh wait wiki says: btw, do you know
21:46:51  <herojoker> erm
21:46:52  <herojoker> oops
21:46:59  <herojoker> Proprietary for Windows version
21:47:13  <herojoker> As of August 23, 2004, the official Windows build of XChat has become shareware, and must be purchased for USD 
21:47:18  <glx> there are free xchat builds for windows
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21:47:30  <Zuu> herojoker: But since the source is GPL there are free xchat builds for windows as glx said.
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21:47:46  <Zuu> puting xchat + windows in google gave me this:
21:48:35  <herojoker> though i'm not using google, i've also just found the silverex build :-)
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21:51:16  <herojoker> oh no, xchat is not available for AmigaOS ;-)
21:52:48  <herojoker> i will now Use Dish with Microwave ^^
21:53:53  <Sacro> love silverex
21:53:57  <Sacro> though using irssi atm
21:55:47  <Eddi|zuHause> "you solved this sudoku in 986 minutes and 38 seconds"
21:55:58  <SmatZ> huh
21:57:20  <Eddi|zuHause> well, i started it this morning before i went to work, and i couldn't finish it in time :p
21:57:33  <SmatZ> :()
21:59:05  <Zuu> Night guys
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22:03:48  <Bjarni>  <herojoker> i'm currently bound to winxp <--- somebody showed me his laptop today. He upgraded to XP (from vista) and he said "now it's able to execute all apps and it's way faster"
22:04:02  <Bjarni> so you could do worse than XP
22:04:10  <herojoker> hehe
22:04:12  <Bjarni> but you could do better too
22:04:23  <herojoker> imo xp is the best windows version yet
22:04:57  <fjb> Network stack of Vista is faster than the one of xp.
22:05:20  <glx> unzipping a file is way slower on vista
22:05:37  <Tefad> herojoker: you need at least SP2 to say that
22:05:47  <Bjarni> the network stack isn't important if you can tell the speed difference in explorer right away
22:06:36  <Tefad> if i ever use windows as a desktop OS again, i will not be using the standard shell.
22:06:45  <herojoker> yep, i'm using sp2 (i'm always postponing sp3 installation...)
22:07:01  <Bjarni> I have XP... it's just not on the default boot partition :)
22:07:02  <herojoker> Tefad: which one would you use?
22:07:10  <Tefad> the one that doesn't suck
22:07:23  <Ammler> that spam on is a good anonymizer
22:07:25  <Bjarni> basically it's for whenever I need to execute something windows only
22:07:50  <Tefad> in linux i can boot into a graphical environment and consume less than 40MB RAM
22:07:54  <herojoker> :-)
22:07:58  <Bjarni> nice
22:08:09  <Tefad> i think vista sucks 200MB just booting.
22:08:17  <herojoker> actually i want to use gentoo...
22:08:19  <Tefad> then another 200MB for your office app preload and virus scanner.
22:08:20  <Bjarni> that is if it's usable
22:08:43  <herojoker> but i started with a 64bit install, but then saw that it's not usable yet ^^
22:08:53  <Tefad> what? i'm in 64bit gentoo right now
22:09:02  <Tefad> my friend has 64bit gentoo laptop
22:09:09  <herojoker> my wlan card wasn't supported at that time
22:09:12  <Tefad> with silly 3d window manager
22:09:28  <Tefad> neither is his. he has to use ndiswrapper with a vista driver
22:09:53  <herojoker> i also tried that, but there was no 64bit driver
22:09:57  <herojoker> for no os
22:10:04  <Tefad> i see. fun!
22:10:13  <Tefad> he was lucky to find the vista driver
22:10:52  <herojoker> yeah, just forgot to make that clear *before* starting to install gentoo...
22:11:10  <Bjarni> 64bit is totally overrated
22:11:15  <herojoker> (started with lan but had to switch to wlan)
22:11:17  <Eddi|zuHause> <Tefad> in linux i can boot into a graphical environment and consume less than 40MB RAM <- well, that's after many hours of custom crafting... i'm not sure if that is really worth the effort
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22:11:26  <Tefad> CUSTOM CRAFTING?! bahaha
22:11:38  <Tefad> that's my standard start up : )
22:11:52  <herojoker> arch linux?
22:11:55  <Tefad> gentoo
22:11:56  <herojoker> :D
22:12:19  <Eddi|zuHause> well, my standard suse installation had a noticeable speedup when i upgraded from 512MB to 1GB of RAM
22:12:30  <herojoker> is there a C version of portage now?
22:12:35  <Aali> wait a minute, the only requirement here is a graphical environment?
22:12:49  <Tefad> Aali: uh, preferably X11
22:12:50  <Aali> you could do that with 16mb or less
22:13:06  <Tefad> yes, i could.. but then i wouldn't have a decent video driver
22:13:15  <Tefad> i think nvidia's is at least 8MB
22:13:19  <Tefad> giant blob.
22:13:22  <Aali> maybe
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22:13:42  <Tefad> and i typically run a few bash instances as a meg a pop
22:14:03  <Eddi|zuHause> sure, some memory optimising is good, but there is a balance where the effort cancels out the gain
22:14:05  <Bjarni> The Amiga 500 did ok for a graphical environment with only 512k of memory
22:14:37  <Aali> Bjarni: but it didn't run linux
22:14:40  <Eddi|zuHause> imho, usability weighs much more than a small memory footprint
22:14:49  <Bjarni> yeah
22:14:51  <herojoker> Tefad: have the C-based boot scripts established now?
22:14:53  <Bjarni> so 40 mb sounds nice
22:14:59  <Tefad> herojoker: don't know
22:15:18  <Sacro> Bjarni: i'm getting my A500 here tommorow
22:15:32  <fjb> Hey, my strange C++ thing is running. Thanks to all who helped.
22:15:32  <Bjarni> why?
22:15:34  <herojoker> iirc that was on the plan for the new baselayout
22:15:41  <Bjarni> wanna try porting OpenTTD to it?
22:15:45  <herojoker> :D
22:15:47  <ln> Bjarni: what have you found out about ethernet?
22:16:05  <Bjarni> it can transfer data
22:16:17  <fjb> I have an Amiga 1000. :-)
22:16:24  <Sacro> Bjarni: aye, can do
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22:16:37  <Bjarni> and you can transmit 1 Gbit/sec in full duplex even when the cable only claims to be able to handle 100 Mb/s :D
22:16:38  <herojoker> i had a cdtv
22:16:51  <Tefad> what cable?
22:17:32  <herojoker> and many cracked games on floppy disks...
22:17:37  <Tefad> cat5 is enough for short runs of gige
22:17:39  <Eddi|zuHause> max speed depends on the cable quality, and cable length
22:19:59  <herojoker> isn't the category number summarizing that?
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22:23:21  <herojoker> i'm now using xchat (o.O the title bar says YChat)
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22:24:18  <Tefad> the 'standard' length for ethernet on copper is 100m (~300ft)
22:24:56  <Tefad> 10M can deal with cat3, 100M wants cat5, 1G wants cat5e, 10G wants cat6a
22:25:05  <Eddi|zuHause> my longest cable is 20m, i believe
22:25:24  *** Yeggstry is now known as Yeggzzz
22:25:25  <Tefad> i think that's how it works. 1G can run on regular cat5 for 30m, likewise with 10G on regular cat6
22:25:30  *** Yeggzzz [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
22:25:39  <Tefad> i think for very short distances 10G will run on cat5e
22:26:02  <ln> Bjarni: is there even such thing as 1 Gbit half duplex? no?
22:26:33  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm sure there is, but who is insane enough to enable that? :p
22:27:11  <Eddi|zuHause> i mean, where do you get all those carrier pidgeons from? :p
22:27:39  *** herojoker [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
22:27:59  <SmatZ> maybe there is, but most ethernet cards don't support that
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22:28:12  <herojoker> re
22:28:49  <Eddi|zuHause> brain function reset by beer?
22:29:20  <SmatZ> :-)
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22:31:41  <herojoker> now xchat should be configured properly :)
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22:52:21  <herojoker> oops
22:53:44  *** herojoker [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
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22:54:14  <herojoker> damn, silverex crashes when minimizing to tray :(
22:54:34  <Eddi|zuHause> that's... unfortunate :p
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22:58:44  <herojoker> i'm just reading about Autoreplace ^
22:58:46  <herojoker> ^^
23:03:18  <herojoker> good night
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23:14:17  <Bjarni> <ln> Bjarni: is there even such thing as 1 Gbit half duplex? no? <-- if I recall correctly, there is support for it in IEEE. However I have yet to see 1 Gbit hardware that lacks support for full duplex
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