Log for #openttd on 15th October 2008:
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05:58:50  <SpComb> Logs:
05:58:50  <roboboy> !logs
06:00:47  <dih> mornin
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07:38:22  <Celestar> hm ..
07:38:31  <Celestar> rsyncing 40k files takes some time :P
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07:43:25  <Celestar> hey Eddi|zuHause
07:43:46  <Eddi|zuHause> i hate power outages
07:43:54  <Eddi|zuHause> it's the second one in two days!
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07:55:34  <planetmaker> morning
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07:59:03  <dih> morning pm
08:00:05  <Kommer> morning
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09:05:28  <A_Person> Crap, why the hell is it telling me a 11 pice train is too long
09:05:41  <A_Person> I have 7 tile stations grah!
09:11:00  <planetmaker> with newgrf the relation 1 tile = 2 wagons doesn't hold necessarily.
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09:18:10  <A_Person> Myeah, well, at elast there's the huge trains switch
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09:23:37  <A_Person> ?Well, with the ones that I have loaded it still seems to be 2 pices per tile :D
09:25:48  <planetmaker> round(2.13) = 2
09:28:06  <A_Person> Hmm, interesting
09:28:54  <A_Person> Well, it still fits into my station with 14 units
09:32:24  <A_Person> Gah!
09:32:32  * A_Person murders his evl terminus station
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09:45:56  <Eddi|zuHause> well, with the long trains switch off, the limit is 10, obviously...
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09:46:52  <A_Person> I didn't remember it being that short, especially since the game offers building size 7 stations in the GUI
09:47:25  <Eddi|zuHause> you could open a feature request that they are limited to 5 then ;)
09:47:53  <A_Person> or raise the length limit in stead :P
09:48:29  <Eddi|zuHause> no, it's a hysterical limit.
09:48:36  <A_Person> Huh?
09:48:55  <Rubidium> from hysterical raisins
09:48:55  <Eddi|zuHause> it makes no sense to change it... that's why the switch to turn it off is there
09:49:27  <A_Person> It makes no sense to me to leave the limit smaller than an ancient GUI feature would seem to suggest
09:49:55  <Eddi|zuHause> the gui is way less ancient than the limit ;)
09:52:05  <A_Person> I curse this game for being so attractive while being so evil and incompatible with my little mind
09:55:09  * Rubidium wonders how many people ever wondered why the sun was "still" shining when (s)he stopped playing a Transport Tycoon flavour
09:55:27  <A_Person> Hahaha
09:55:33  <A_Person> Many
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09:55:55  <A_Person> It happened to my dad the one and only time he played the game
09:56:18  <A_Person> I've prob done it many times
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10:14:02  <Brianetta> (:
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10:14:50  <dih> hey ho sir
10:16:23  <A_Person> Is it just my paranoia or does the area of your station's caption that overlaps a primary industry affect how much of it's output arrives at your station?
10:17:04  <roboboy> gnight
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10:29:04  <Brianetta> A_Person: It's your paranoia.
10:29:58  <A_Person> Good, then I just have to haul better to get the % up :D
10:30:00  <Doorslammer> Are they too tall? :S
10:34:30  <Doorslammer> No wonder I dont bother with DBSetXL
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10:46:55  <ln> where's the baby?
10:49:12  <Doorslammer> Dingo ate it?
10:50:26  <Eddi|zuHause> "Und wenn sie nicht gestorben sind, dann spielen sie immernoch OTTD"
10:50:37  <Doorslammer> Thats so true
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10:55:59  <ln> english only
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11:01:18  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, teach him! ;)
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11:32:46  <SpComb> Logs:
11:32:46  <Brianetta> !logs
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11:36:59  <fjb> Hello
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11:53:29  <A_Person> Wow, I just saw Jesus Camp. Mad stuff
11:54:03  <keyweed_> it's a mad world
11:54:19  <A_Person> A mad sad place it is
11:54:24  <keyweed_> fundamentally mad
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11:54:54  <keyweed_> there's  !freedom of religion! as long as you beleive in the RIGHT God. not the other one. that's wrong.
11:55:25  <Ridayah> And make sure to indoctrinate your children, because they'll be salvation.  You can be lazy though!
11:55:32  <A_Person> Nah, those folks don't believe in that, or separation of state and church
11:55:42  <keyweed_> one nation under God.
11:55:43  <A_Person> It's their wish to live in a theocracy
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11:55:57  <keyweed_> yet they condemn iran for being a theocracy
11:56:03  <keyweed_> confusing stuff
11:56:10  <Ridayah> oh no, they do.  Seperation of church and state, they argue, is that the government cannot make laws and take actions impugning the right of religious organizations
11:56:12  <keyweed_> one nation is more equal then other nations?
11:56:25  <Ridayah> but it is totally within the constitution to use religion to effect the state.
11:56:39  * keyweed_ is glad he lives in europe
11:56:58  <Ridayah> These are the same people who argue that lesbians are okay because "God thinks they're hot!" but gay men aren't.
11:57:00  <Eddi|zuHause2> there is no separation between church and state in europe
11:57:05  * Ridayah has to argue with them on a daily basis
11:57:09  <A_Person> not organisations, but a strict group of them
11:57:17  <keyweed_> Eddi|zuHause2: there's not much church left in europe
11:57:29  <Eddi|zuHause2> oh there is...
11:57:31  <keyweed_> but Eddi|zuHause2 is sort of right.
11:57:53  <keyweed_> the Christiand Democratic Union and Christion Union are the parties that run the netherlands at the moment
11:58:08  <Ridayah> Then again, Europe has almost two thousand years of enforced religious rule too though; so it's standard behavior for them
11:58:15  <Ridayah> starting with the Romans
11:58:17  <Eddi|zuHause2> it's just all the crazy guys already went to america, so the european ones are a tiny bit more moderate :p
11:58:41  <Brianetta> 'lesbians are okay because "God thinks they're hot!" but gay men aren't.'
11:58:44  <Brianetta> Sound logic, that.
11:59:01  <keyweed_> hmz. true. europe has a long past, we've made most mistakes once or twice already
11:59:12  <keyweed_> but that doesn't stop us from repeating the same mistakes forever!
11:59:17  <Ridayah> Yeah, they argue specifically since the Bible says "Man shall not lay with mankind as he lays with womankind" but says nothing on woman laying with womankind, it condones it.
11:59:44  * keyweed_ puts on the devil advocates hat
11:59:46  <Brianetta> well, yeah (:
11:59:57  <keyweed_> Ridayah: what if you do it standing? orlay differently as you do with women?
12:00:04  <Brianetta> If I had religion it would alll be based around woman lying with womankind
12:00:15  <Ridayah> That's the joke I like to throw back at them. :P
12:00:22  <keyweed_> how literal do you need to take that text?
12:00:27  <Brianetta> Ridayah:
12:00:28  <Brianetta> enjoy
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12:00:45  <Ridayah> I've seen some really ridiculous religious comments.
12:00:51  <Eddi|zuHause2> people who argue with the bible tend to ignore all phrases of the bible that work against them :p
12:01:21  <Ridayah> Plus two weeks ago we had religious protesting signholders show up on my college campus for no reason.  There was debate of making signs for the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster and going out there to signhold in protest
12:01:22  <keyweed_> heh. lawyers do the same with law
12:01:41  <Brianetta> Eddi: I argue with the bible all the time
12:01:48  <Brianetta> It never wins
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12:01:56  <Ridayah> Brianetta: You can be assured I will enjoy
12:02:07  <Eddi|zuHause2> i mean make arguments citing the bible
12:02:22  <Brianetta> sorry, that looks like an oxymoron
12:02:41  <Eddi|zuHause2> support their argument with a bible quote
12:02:50  <Ridayah> I've been told that the most challenging debate to do is to make a logical argument for a deity's existence, but it can be done
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12:04:49  <planetmaker> [14:02]	<Ridayah>	I've been told that the most challenging debate to do is to make a logical argument for a deity's existence, but it can be done <-- it's been done for over 2000 years now...
12:05:43  <Eddi|zuHause2> i'd like to reference Gödel at that point... in every logical system that is sufficiently complex, there are theorems that can neither be proven nor disproven, or the system in itself is contradictory
12:06:26  *** Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause
12:06:30  <fjb> Religion is the dark side of the force. It is easy and powerful.
12:06:58  <Eddi|zuHause> Maths is a religion
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12:08:48  <Doorslammer> Never mess with salvation.  They have an army :S
12:10:18  <A_Person> MAths is a science!
12:10:38  * Doorslammer does a mad dance with a test tube
12:10:43  <Doorslammer> But what is SCIENCE?
12:11:09  <A_Person> Science is the application of reason to the understanding of the world
12:11:13  <A_Person> or something like that
12:13:10  <Eddi|zuHause> <A_Person> Science is the application of reason to the understanding of the world <- maths has absolutely nothing to do with "the world"
12:13:18  <A_Person> it's a study of numbers
12:13:29  <Eddi|zuHause> a religion is a set of theorems building on axioms that cannot be proven
12:13:35  <Eddi|zuHause> maths is a set of theorems building on axioms that cannot be proven
12:13:36  <A_Person> a study of abstract concepts
12:13:44  <Eddi|zuHause> ergo: maths is a religion
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12:14:01  <A_Person> Ah, yeah, I forgot about them axioms
12:14:22  <Eddi|zuHause> numbers are only secondary to maths...
12:14:40  <Eddi|zuHause> there are huge branches of maths that can live without numbers
12:14:43  <A_Person> Well, they are reasonable assumptions since using them has yet to be disproven in the application to the world, the branch of applied amthematics
12:15:17  <Eddi|zuHause> that statement is complete nonsense...
12:15:25  <A_Person> I'm made of nonsense :D
12:16:00  <Eddi|zuHause> ANY of the axioms that are used in mathmatics are completely exchangeable by their opposite
12:16:02  <Brianetta> [13:10] <Doorslammer> But what is SCIENCE?
12:16:03  <Brianetta> Science is the system of acquiring knowledge through use of the scientific method.
12:16:21  <Eddi|zuHause> the result is a completely new branch of mathmatics
12:16:24  <Doorslammer> Good grief, last time I do a flash cartoon quote :P
12:16:32  <Eddi|zuHause> which in itself is again consistent (or not)
12:16:52  <Eddi|zuHause> it has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with any kind of "application" in "the world"
12:17:30  <A_Person> Weebl?
12:17:52  <A_Person> Alright, it doens't!
12:17:57  <A_Person> Let's do science without math then ;P
12:18:14  <Eddi|zuHause> trying to pick out a relevant branch of mathmatics to try to fit a "real world" observation into the conclusions of that branch is what they call "science". but that has neither something to do with mathmatics, nor with "proving"
12:18:41  <A_Person> I didn't say anything about proving
12:18:47  <Eddi|zuHause> "sience" is just a lowly servant of maths
12:18:55  <Doorslammer> Yah
12:18:58  <Eddi|zuHause> like "churches" are lowly servants to "religion"
12:19:08  <Doorslammer> Ooo, I know, let's play Toss the H Bomb :P
12:19:37  <Eddi|zuHause> <A_Person> Well, they are reasonable assumptions since using them has yet to be disproven in the application to the world, the branch of applied amthematics <- spot the substring "prove"?
12:19:48  <A_Person> Hmmm
12:20:05  <A_Person> Let me untangle the knot that is confusion
12:20:20  <A_Person> in my head that is, not what I might have caused
12:20:56  <Eddi|zuHause> mathmatics is the highest form of philosophy
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12:23:24  <Eddi|zuHause> that the so called "scientists" occasionally find use for a certain branch of mathmatics is purely coincidental, maths can exist without science
12:23:49  <Eddi|zuHause> mathmatics exist purely to the benefit of mathmatics
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12:24:19  <Eddi|zuHause> the so called "mathmatics" you learn in school has nothing to do with mathmatics
12:24:29  <Eddi|zuHause> it's merely calculating
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12:25:15  <Eddi|zuHause> calculating has nothing to do with mathmatics.
12:25:27  <Eddi|zuHause> mathmatics is the art of avoiding calculations
12:28:06  <Rubidium> not the art of proving that something is (not) calculatable?
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12:28:21  <Gekz> Eddi|zuHause: mathematics*
12:28:56  <Eddi|zuHause> proving non-calculatability is just an elegant way of avoiding calculation ;)
12:29:36  <Rubidium> too bad most proofs incorporate some kind of calculations
12:30:03  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, we're working on that ;)
12:32:18  <Rubidium> and computer science is the art of outsourcing the calculations ;)
12:32:42  <TrueBrain> you guys are WEIRD
12:32:58  <Eddi|zuHause> i didn't even get started :p
12:33:14  <Eddi|zuHause> the discussion is more problematic in a foreign language
12:34:16  <Rubidium> and economics is the art of making something that doesn't add up add up
12:35:10  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, and feeding the not adding up part in a bubble that's ultimately going to burst
12:35:25  <Eddi|zuHause> it's a wonder how they manage that every time ;)
12:36:35  <Rubidium> and when it's about to burst they feed it a lot more
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13:44:56  * Belugas ponders renaming the game OpenMTD. M for Merchant, of course
13:49:29  <Doorslammer> :O
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14:05:29  <A_Person> wow, finally I find somehing cool
14:05:38  <A_Person>
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14:25:00  <A_Person> I wonder if those mega station exploits still work in openttd
14:25:26  <Belugas> i wonder if you're going to try
14:26:04  <Aali> I wonder where I parked my car
14:26:14  * SpComb parks Aali's car
14:26:14  <A_Person> Not too soon
14:26:22  <Doorslammer> I wonder upon a star
14:26:23  <A_Person> I've got other stuff to figure out first
14:27:01  <Eddi|zuHause> dude, where's my ottd?
14:27:07  <A_Person> hidden!
14:28:01  <Belugas> I wonder what tomorrow has in mind for me
14:28:04  <Belugas> or even if i'm in its mind at all
14:28:24  <A_Person> Probably not, I bet it has too little memory capacity :D
14:28:37  <Belugas> soon as a find myself a CRYSTAL BALL
14:29:00  <Belugas> --STYX-- Crystal Ball
14:29:01  <Belugas> youhou!
14:29:15  <Eddi|zuHause> i have one spare, but it might not be as reliable as you'd like
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14:29:42  <Doorslammer> I got a perspex cube if need be
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14:30:50  <Eddi|zuHause> btw. i only have Keane - Crystal Ball...
14:32:47  <Gekz>
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14:41:22  <dih> *** XoIN has left the game (received strange packet)
14:41:29  <dih> when is that possible to show up?
14:41:43  <dih> i mean - what must happen for that to show up?
14:42:18  <dih> would that have to be a on-purpose malformed packet?
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14:44:49  <Belugas> Embrase the Sources!
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14:45:10  <dih> i was hoping someone knew out of the back of their head ;-)
14:45:44  <dih> and yes i will follow up in the code ;-)
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14:51:11  <Belugas> petern, are you dealing with BlackHawk Network @work?
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15:06:56  <A_Person> Ah, the catchment area patch trades road station range for dock range, hmm
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15:09:34  <Eddi|zuHause> "setting", not "patch"
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15:14:22  <A_Person> yes, patch setting
15:14:35  <glx> no advanced setting ;)
15:14:53  <Eddi|zuHause> that's a big misnomer that has meanwhile been fixed in the nightlies
15:14:59  <A_Person> My client calls it "configure patches"
15:15:37  <A_Person> I should do some editing in that file, it seems some settings aren't remembered
15:16:08  <Eddi|zuHause> changes you make during a game will only affect that game, not stored for the next game
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15:16:23  <Eddi|zuHause> make changes on the main menu, if you want to keep them
15:16:28  <A_Person> I've tried that
15:16:42  <A_Person> But I don't remember exactly, I'll have to try again
15:16:51  <Eddi|zuHause> (that, in turn, will not affect any games you already started/load)
15:17:20  <Eddi|zuHause> loading a game will restore the settings to the state when you started that game
15:17:47  <A_Person> Yeah
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15:41:01  <dih> <Eddi|zuHause> [17:14:13] changes you make during a game will only affect that game, not stored for the next game <- run saveconfig on the console?
15:42:33  <Eddi|zuHause> a) i haven't noticed that this is a trunk feature, b) i wasn't going in that direction, i was merely stating the behaviour of the GUI
15:44:27  <dih> a) it has been a feature for quite some time now
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15:49:24  <Eddi|zuHause> one that i never ever use...
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15:52:14  <Belugas> dih wants a new user to dwelve in the pleasures of console?  How sadistic of you :P
15:52:35  <dih> console is awsome
15:52:40  <dih> it's like my fav part of openttd
15:52:57  <Eddi|zuHause> you are definitely sick :p
15:52:59  <dih> not the code for handling commands or arguments or finding aliases
15:53:09  <dih> but appart from that
15:53:39  * A_Person ponders putting a road depot in the middle of a 3*3 city block with a drive-in through a drive-through stop linking it to the street grid
15:54:04  <dih> do it
15:54:21  <A_Person> I do too little playing and too much other things :/
15:55:12  <dih> Belugas plays a lot
15:55:16  <dih> not openttd
15:55:24  <dih> but hide and "eek" with his kid :-D\
15:55:34  <A_Person> Hehehe
15:57:36  <A_Person> I do wonder why the money cheat isn't in the format of a larger credit than standard, say a 1000 million, heheee
15:58:53  <Eddi|zuHause> because this is not sim city
15:58:58  <Belugas> YEAH!!!
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15:59:19  <A_Person> Heh, well, I mean it would be nice if even the 20 million cheat would be as a loan anway, I think
15:59:38  <Belugas> no it would not be nice
15:59:42  <Eddi|zuHause> why bother?
15:59:48  <Eddi|zuHause> cheat is cheat
16:00:20  <A_Person> I'm a cheater by nature, with many computer games anyway
16:00:33  <A_Person> Many times difficulty is not fun
16:01:13  <Eddi|zuHause> a pure sandbox mode in a transport game quickly becomes boring
16:01:31  <Belugas> plus, users are frequently finding the game too easy
16:01:50  <Belugas> so i guess you have not yet found out how to play it correctly ;)
16:02:01  <glx> it is indeed easy
16:02:10  <A_Person> Anyway, there isn't a big reason anyway, the cheat menu can easily remind me of what the sum was, I thought of the loan as beng a good way for reminding me where the zero point lies
16:02:25  <A_Person> Well, I'm  not really an exemplary tt player, heh
16:02:32  <glx> just the begining is very slow but once you make money, you get way too much
16:02:35  <A_Person> Or any game really
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16:09:14  <Eddi|zuHause> when are you finally getting this? you are special! exactly like everyone else!
16:09:32  <Brianetta> Heh
16:09:44  <Brianetta> I've had companies fold repeatedly on my server (:
16:09:48  <Brianetta> It's hilarious
16:09:59  <Brianetta> seeing all these smug players swagger up...
16:10:25  <Brianetta> then it's 1067 and they still haven't paid off the loan, and their trains are getting old and struggling to compete
16:10:27  <Brianetta> er
16:10:29  <Brianetta> 1967
16:11:33  <Eddi|zuHause> i've never had a problem being effective...
16:11:43  <Eddi|zuHause> just set up one money generating line
16:11:58  <Eddi|zuHause> then you can build up whatever network you want
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16:31:24  <dih> Brianetta, the only sad thing when companies go bankrupt is that it's not mentioned on the console :-D
16:31:41  <Brianetta> meh
16:31:51  <dih> hihi
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16:50:24  <Swallow> hmm
16:50:51  <Swallow> Does my breakdowns patch have any chance of getting into trunk?
16:51:43  <Brianetta> Magic 8 ball says: Ask again later.
16:54:14  <dih> Swallow, is your code trunkish?
16:55:49  <Swallow> I think it is, but its not really my opinion that counts
16:56:44  <Swallow> and since it's not a small patch, there will undoubtedly be things that need to be changed/fixed
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16:57:21  <dih> Swallow: so check your patch and make sure it follows the coding guide
16:57:31  <dih> then make a report at
16:57:44  <dih> hint: select 'patch' from the dropdown menu
16:58:16  <Swallow> *cough*
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16:58:34  <dih> Swallow, you checked your code very fast ;-)
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16:59:22  <dih> Swallow, another hint
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16:59:27  <dih> i would not create a new settings option
16:59:38  <dih> there is alreayd a breakdowns setting in difficulty
16:59:51  <dih> add another possibility to that
16:59:58  <dih> else it gets confusing
17:00:21  <Swallow> I disagree about that
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17:00:40  <Swallow> Difficulty settings changes the number of breakdowns like it always did
17:00:46  <Wolf01> hello
17:00:59  <Swallow> while the patch setting enables the new breakdown types etc
17:01:06  <dih> advanced setting
17:01:15  <Swallow> whatever
17:01:33  <Swallow> but unfortunately I gtg, oh I love birthdays...
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17:13:41  <Eddi|zuHause> "I'm using 1920X1080 on a 40 inch LCD TV" <- and what exactly is this guy complaining about?
17:14:14  <glx> text is too small ;)
17:14:15  <frosch123> that he is sitting two meters away from it
17:15:13  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: about his glasses
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17:15:34  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, i was tempted to write that... "you need glasses" :p
17:17:59  <Bjarni> the text in the game is small when you switch to a huge resolution... that's kind of the point in a huge resolution
17:18:15  <Bjarni> that more stuff is supposed to fit on the screen at once
17:19:09  <|Jeroen|> or the same stuff with higher quality
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17:20:06  <Bjarni> but we can't get higher quality than the sprites we have
17:20:16  <Bjarni> so we have only the more stuff option
17:20:35  <Eddi|zuHause> Bjarni: the problem is actually, he uses a monitor twice as large as mine, and a resolution only slightly larger than mine, so actually his text is bigger than mine...
17:20:56  <Bjarni> heh
17:21:20  <Bjarni> same here
17:21:27  <Rubidium> not quite the same here
17:21:52  <Bjarni> his pixels is like 3,5 times bigger than mine
17:22:02  <Rubidium> his monitor is > 2.5 times as large and the resolution is lower than mine
17:22:27  <Bjarni> looks like Rubidium is using CRT
17:22:34  <Eddi|zuHause> by "twice" i mean the diagonal
17:22:36  <Eddi|zuHause> not the area
17:22:56  <Bjarni> I know
17:23:02  <Bjarni> I looked at the area though
17:23:16  <Rubidium> I meant diagonal too
17:23:18  <Bjarni> I guess your pixelsize is around the same as mine
17:23:36  <Rubidium> area would be almost 7 times larger
17:23:49  <Bjarni> we could start calculating to get the real number... but who cares? :)
17:23:52  <Bjarni> he has big pixels
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17:24:23  <Rubidium> yeah, more than 7 times as large as mine!
17:24:31  <Rubidium> but I like them small
17:25:11  <Eddi|zuHause> so you have like 17" monitor?
17:25:26  <Eddi|zuHause> is that a laptop or something?
17:25:39  <Rubidium> 15.4 laptop
17:25:46  <Eddi|zuHause> i really hope that it is :p
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17:40:51  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r14468 /trunk/src/lang/ (6 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
17:40:51  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2008-10-15 17:40:33
17:40:51  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: hungarian - 8 fixed, 1 changed by alyr (9)
17:40:51  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: ido - 98 fixed by Cecile (98)
17:40:51  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: italian - 1 changed by lorenzodv (1)
17:40:53  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: korean - 88 changed by dlunch (88)
17:40:53  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: latvian - 15 fixed, 174 changed by v3rb0 (189)
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18:10:10  <frosch123> So what do you think is the correct behaviour of setting property 15 of a non-north multi-tile-house tile to an id of the single-tile-house?
18:10:33  <Belugas> blow the game?
18:11:13  <Brianetta> Correct behaviour is to desync all players, surely?
18:11:21  <Prof_Frink> Belugas: Oh, how cruel. You made Sacro lose the game.
18:11:55  <frosch123> ottd happily builds the non-north tile of the new house instead of the old house, while ttdp does not build it. in the result mb is complaining
18:12:09  <frosch123> maybe I should ask him, what he tries to archive with that...
18:12:41  <Belugas> he tries to blow the game!
18:13:11  <Belugas> or even worse, he has nothing to do, get bored, and tries to catch us pants down ;)
18:13:39  <Belugas> ---  which we never have down, but that's irrelevant to the conversation
18:13:43  <Prof_Frink> pance!
18:15:57  <Brianetta> "We don't know, Blunck."
18:16:05  <Brianetta> "Oh, did we say know?  We meant care."
18:24:02  <frosch123> Now it is getting interesting. What will happend when I reply to don't-send-me-pms-mb's pm by pm...
18:24:46  <Eddi|zuHause> the world will explode
18:25:00  <Eddi|zuHause> besides, does he even have a new mail address yet?
18:26:18  <Belugas> he had one before
18:26:54  <Belugas> frosch123, yu mean he sent you a pm?
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18:27:43  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, he had one at ewetel, but i assume that is gone, together with his site
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18:30:05  <frosch123> Belugas: yup, with a test grf.
18:30:21  <frosch123> Bonus question: What will be the name of mb's house grf :)
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18:30:47  <Belugas> DBExcelHouse?
18:30:52  <Belugas> testmb?
18:30:55  <Belugas> mbtest?
18:31:13  <Belugas> this-is-not-suppsoed-to-be-for-ottd?
18:31:33  <Belugas> it-works-in-patch-for-decades?
18:31:56  <Ammler> don't blame the best grf maker :P
18:31:58  <frosch123> Belugas: he usually does not use special names for his test grfs
18:32:16  <frosch123> i.e. I also have a testgrf that is named "dbsetxl 0.9"
18:32:40  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd guess the new houses grf will be called "newhouses.grf" :p
18:32:44  <frosch123> hint: he should have named "dbsetxl" "NewVehicles" instead
18:32:50  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: correct :)
18:33:18  <frosch123> he also talked about NewIndustries somewhere :)
18:33:55  <Ammler> betterECS.grf
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18:36:30  <Eddi|zuHause> if only he had any kind of release schedule...
18:36:36  <frosch123> lol
18:37:08  <frosch123> "NewBuildings V0.1 10.05.04" "© 2004 Michael Blunck - All rights reserved." <- I hope he copy&pasted the date from somewhere...
18:37:22  <Eddi|zuHause> well it is how long ago since he announced new houses?
18:37:44  <Eddi|zuHause> and the last dbset release is also over 3 years ago
18:37:58  <frosch123> I never read an annoucement of new houses from mb
18:38:20  <frosch123> but I was not around in 2004
18:38:36  <Eddi|zuHause> well, teaser pictures and stuff
18:39:27  <Eddi|zuHause> and a new newstations grf is also a long missing release
18:40:09  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: They will be all released in a single grf, called "NewGrf" :)
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18:59:19  <Belugas> hehe
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19:02:32  <FloSoft> Hi, hmm how to set the palette for newgrfs? they change always to "dos"?
19:03:14  *** Purno [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
19:03:46  <Ammler> FloSoft: do you use newest nightliy?
19:04:14  <FloSoft> yes
19:04:24  <FloSoft> downloaded it 4 min ago
19:04:29  <FloSoft> 14468?
19:05:59  <FloSoft> downloaded the debian package
19:06:09  <FloSoft> after a restart its always set to dos
19:06:25  <frosch123> do you use the grfs from ttd for dos?
19:07:08  <frosch123> start openttd with "--help" and take a look at "List of graphics sets:"
19:07:19  *** [alt]buster [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
19:07:28  <frosch123> then use "-I" and "-i" to your liking
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19:07:31  <FloSoft> frosch123: aah its the dos-set
19:07:38  <FloSoft> frosch123: only have the dos-version
19:08:13  <frosch123> then either download dos grfs, or use "-i"
19:09:34  <frosch123> hmm, the "--help" text is wrong
19:13:51  <FloSoft> okay hmm i'll try to find the sets for dos. thx than (but it would be nice to save that parameter for each entry)
19:14:29  <frosch123> just start with "-i 1"
19:14:45  <frosch123> maybe there is also an option in the openttd.cfg - don't know
19:15:10  <Wolf01> what's the problem? you shouldn't be able to use both dos basefiles and windows grfs at the same time?
19:15:24  <frosch123> Wolf01: in 0.7 alpha you can
19:15:44  <Wolf01> in nightly you should too
19:15:58  <frosch123> but you don't have to
19:18:26  <Wolf01> there is a limit, but I don't know what is it, if all the newgrfs must be of the same type (doesn't matter the type of the basefiles) or what else
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19:19:48  <frosch123> as long as newgrf communicate with each other, there should be no limitation about that in nightlies
19:20:03  <frosch123> *do not communicate
19:20:58  <frosch123> though maybe you cannot switch palettes for dedicated servers...
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19:42:57  <Belugas> TrueBrain, you should add a counter for all the touch-and-goes for the same nick during the day.
19:43:03  <Belugas> should be interesting to read ;)
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20:17:56  <TrueBrain> lol @ Belugas
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20:33:00  <fjb> May I ask a C question? What does this do? "(void *) (uptr_t) i" It is an argument to a funtion. I is an unsigned char.
20:33:27  <SpComb> double cast?
20:33:41  <fjb> (void *) casts it to a void pointer.
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20:34:09  <fjb> But i is no pointer. i is allocated on the stack.
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20:34:51  <SpComb> perhaps it's an 8-bit machine, and pointers are 8 bits? :)
20:35:13  <Belugas> could it be an error?
20:35:29  <Belugas> or a bug waiting to crash the machine?
20:35:45  <fjb> The code once originated on an 8bit microcontroller, but is an actual working example for an 32bit arm based microcontroller.
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20:36:34  <fjb> I'm not fluent in C, but that looks really strange.
20:36:41  <SpComb> it is
20:37:11  <fjb> The fucktion expects a (void *).
20:37:26  <fjb> i is the counter in a for loop.
20:38:06  <SpComb> perhaps it's some kind of pointer-as-an-ofset
20:38:35  <fjb> I hope there is not more of that kind of strange kind of code. Bad enough that I'm forced to implement a real time system using cooperative multitasking.
20:38:54  <SpComb> but adding two pointers together isn't a particularly good idea
20:39:05  <fjb> Hm, offset? I have to check that.
20:39:38  <Belugas> "...m forced to implement a real time system using..."  buwhahaha!!!
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20:40:23  <fjb> Yes, idea is to implement the real time part using interrupt routines...
20:40:38  <Eddi|zuHause> is that related to this "real world" i've been hearing rumours about?
20:40:52  <fjb> That effectively means imlementing a second OS working in parallel to the main OS.
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20:40:59  * SpComb is currently busy trying to implement a fuse filesystem on top of postgresql
20:41:13  <fjb> Yeah, real world stuff. Sadly. :-(
20:41:28  <Eddi|zuHause> i mean "real time" vs. "real world"
20:41:30  <TrueBrain> fjb: it happens that things are passed on as pointer, but read as integer
20:41:39  <TrueBrain> so it really depends on what is going to read the (void *) pointer
20:41:40  <fjb> Fuse for postgresql at least sound cool.
20:41:48  <SpComb> which is, thankfully, something of zero utility and no real purpose, so it's fun
20:41:52  <TrueBrain> if the read is: (unsigned char)ptr, all will work out just fine again
20:42:22  <fjb> I found where it gets read: "u_char id = (u_char) ((uptr_t) arg);" "arg" is that strange pointer.
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20:42:36  <SpComb> but currently my issue is that I want to use postgre's large objects for files, but implementing unlink without invalidating open file handles is untrivial
20:42:46  <SpComb> as lo_unlink does't care about transactions
20:43:07  <fjb> SpComb: Oh, not an easy problem.
20:43:10  <TrueBrain> fjb: so see, nothing 'strange' is going on :) It is just passed on as pointer, but remains a unsigned char :)
20:43:26  <SpComb> so lo_unlinking a oid in one transaction will invalidate that oid in any other transactions
20:43:29  *** [alt]buster [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:43:29  *** [com]buster is now known as [alt]buster
20:43:37  <Eddi|zuHause> shouldn't "unlink" just lower some kind of reference counter?
20:43:39  <TrueBrain> (happens in many software in many places :p People think that it is faster when you pass a pointer :p)
20:43:40  <fjb> TrueBrain: I don't see. How is that working?
20:43:49  <SpComb> unless said other transaction modified the data (lowrite), in which case the lo_unlink just hangs until the first transaction commits
20:44:02  <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause: it would be awesome if it did, but it doesn't, it just deletes it right away
20:44:19  <TrueBrain> fjb: the basic idea is that a pointer is always the bit-size of a CPU (so 8, or 16, or 32, or 64 nowedays)
20:44:23  <SpComb> so I need to implement some kind of reference counting + call unlink myself via SQL
20:44:30  <TrueBrain> and registers are faster when you pass the native amount (no bitmasks and shit)
20:44:39  <TrueBrain> but that is not true with modern compilers :)
20:44:58  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, i was just gonna say... shouldn't the compiler take care of that?
20:45:16  <SpComb> <-- A and B are two separate sessions
20:45:16  <TrueBrain> (in fact, results are mostly worse with modern compilers :p)
20:45:28  <TrueBrain> that said, it is also used if you have a common function to pass things to and from a backend
20:45:40  <TrueBrain> so call that 'common' method a pointer, and pass it what ever you want
20:45:44  <TrueBrain> also bad, but happens a lot :)
20:46:11  <Eddi|zuHause> sometimes i think i have the only really interesting project around here ;)
20:46:11  <fjb> The idea is that anything could be passed over that (void *). It is the argument to a new thread. So I understand that a pointer gets passed. But I don't understand that casting. Or do I start to understand it now? Still unsure...
20:46:32  <fjb> Eddi|zuHause: You have...
20:46:59  <TrueBrain> fjb: well, there you have it :) You want to allow many things to be passed to a new thread ... and this happens to be a uchar :)
20:47:06  <TrueBrain> as long as the writer and reader agree, no harm is done :)
20:47:25  <Eddi|zuHause> people are always amazed of what i can read out of source code in a non-declarative scripting language, without ever running a single line of that code ;)
20:47:43  <fjb> So I just wrap it looking like a pointer and than unwrap it?
20:47:59  <TrueBrain> fjb: clearly :p
20:48:05  <TrueBrain> like taking your bike inside a train
20:48:06  <Eddi|zuHause> but they also are buffled when it finds primitive syntax errors :p
20:48:21  <TrueBrain> the train might be bigger, but when you get out, you still have your bike
20:48:22  <fjb> But just a single cast to (void *) would not do?
20:48:38  <Eddi|zuHause> which i don't even have anything to do with, as i call a regular compiler first, who finds those
20:48:57  <TrueBrain> fjb: casting a (uchar) to a (void *) can give compile-warnings (not of same bit-size)
20:49:07  <TrueBrain> so people tend to cast them first to (size_t), then to (void *)
20:49:36  <fjb> Ah, thanks for enlighten me. Now it is clear.
20:50:13  <TrueBrain> good luck :p (that really is one of the nasties things of C ... casting :))
20:50:23  <SpComb> silly optimizations lead to silly code
20:50:56  <fjb> Yes, that is why I tried to stay away from C. But this is microcontroller programming. C is not the worst choice there.
20:50:58  <SpComb> #define OMG_MORE_MEGAHURTZ(uval) ((void *) (uptr_t) (uval))
20:51:08  <fjb> :-)
20:51:20  <TrueBrain> fjb: no, for microcontroller programming it is the best language
20:51:21  *** |Jeroen| [] has quit [Quit: oO]
20:51:22  <TrueBrain> just get used to it ;)
20:51:36  <SpComb> although I guess uptr_t must mean something
20:51:41  <SpComb> are there any comments?
20:51:49  <fjb> I try. But I'm a bit ruty at it.
20:51:52  <TrueBrain> fjb: you really don't want to program a microcontroller in, say, Python :p
20:52:06  <SpComb> TI-BASIC
20:53:10  <fjb> Their other projects were in Basic. The PC part talking to the microcontroller is made with Delphy. So they want to hire me for the C part. At least I hope they hire me.
20:53:23  <TrueBrain> Delphi, not Delphy ;)
20:53:30  <TrueBrain> and you know nothing about C? :p
20:53:43  <TrueBrain> C really is the only language for any embed system btw
20:53:44  <fjb> Ok, I don't use it, so I don't know the exact name. :-)
20:54:34  <fjb> I know about C, but some castings are not clear to me. Didn't do any C the last years. Have to get used to it.
20:54:52  <TrueBrain> :) Good luck :)
20:55:00  <TrueBrain> you either love pointers, or you hate them :)
20:55:01  <TrueBrain> I love them ;)
20:55:19  <fjb> I would always vote for C to do microcontroller stuff. You often have to count bits and bytes there.
20:55:54  <fjb> I like pointers. I only don't like casts which I don't understand.
20:56:36  <TrueBrain> :)
20:56:42  <TrueBrain> I know the feeling :p
20:56:46  * SpComb read a bit of a 200-page book that contained nothing than clever bitwise-operator tricks
20:56:52  <Belugas> I love Delphi for hiding those pesky pointers away from me
20:56:54  <SpComb> forget the name
20:57:22  <fjb> The only problem I really see is how to do the realtime stuff with just interrupt routines.
20:57:43  <TrueBrain> realtime and interrupts generally don't mix :)
20:57:51  <TrueBrain> unless you think the timer interrupt is called realtime :)
20:57:53  <fjb> I'm only having my K&R ANSI edition here.
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20:58:27  <Prof_Frink>!
20:58:30  <fjb> TrueBrain: Yes, they think about using timers. And interruptsfrom the input sources.
20:58:37  *** Xerres [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:59:20  <TrueBrain> (normally you use the timer interrupt to 'fake' real time, by switching it to 1000 Hz or so :) Of course you can never make a true realtime something with a CPU like we use :))
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21:00:44  <fjb> It's an 48MHz arm7. And how did you gess that the solution is to use an 1MHz tick clock? :-)
21:00:44  <Eddi|zuHause> python is all nice and calm, until you want to write a c interface to it and get nasty sideeffects with reference counting...
21:01:09  <SpComb> it's *possible* to get the reference counting right
21:01:11  <TrueBrain> arm7, nice :)
21:01:13  <TrueBrain> easy to program on :)
21:01:28  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: completely non-transparent, how Python does referencing :)
21:01:28  <fjb> Yes, nice.
21:01:29  <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: care to teach me the basic patterns?
21:01:41  <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause: read the ext tutorial?
21:01:44  <TrueBrain> fjb: I am working on a arm9 project
21:01:49  <TrueBrain> also nice CPUs, lot faster ;)
21:01:50  <TrueBrain> (300 MHz)
21:01:54  <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: yeah, i did
21:01:55  <fjb> TrueBrain: Even nicer.
21:02:09  <Eddi|zuHause> but it has too few common examples
21:02:11  <TrueBrain> do use more power
21:02:20  <TrueBrain> but ... easier to add a network port ;)
21:02:47  <SpComb> my experience with python extension modules is pretty limited, and I got by with what the tut explained
21:03:02  <fjb> Power consumption (or the heat that it casts) is the main problem with the arm9 here.
21:03:31  <ln> how would you like an ARM 9 platform with 64 MB RAM, SD slot, Ethernet and a 1.3-megapixel camera?
21:03:33  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm bad with tutorials that don't descend in the full depth of the issue
21:04:18  <TrueBrain> fjb: well .. 15W isn't that bad ;)
21:04:27  <TrueBrain> (at full load)
21:04:33  <TrueBrain> but yeah, arm7 is a bit less ;)
21:04:44  <fjb> The Atmel AT91SAM7XC has the network stuff.
21:04:46  <TrueBrain> I love those RISC CPUs :)
21:04:57  <TrueBrain> Nintendo DS works on 2 ARM9s :)
21:05:18  <Sacro|Laptop> TrueBrain: 1
21:05:21  <fjb> 15W isn't that bad. But it doesn't get fresh air where it has to run.
21:05:21  <Sacro|Laptop> and an ARM7
21:05:49  <TrueBrain> fjb: hehe, fresh air tends to be important :p
21:06:06  <TrueBrain> networking for ARM7 works, but needs more components ;)
21:06:38  <TrueBrain> SpComb: wrong, it has one ARM7 and one ARM9
21:06:42  <TrueBrain> later models 2 ARM9
21:06:45  <TrueBrain> euh
21:06:46  <TrueBrain> Sacro|Laptop:
21:06:46  <SpComb> oh shit, I'm wrong!
21:06:48  <TrueBrain> sorry SpComb :)
21:06:49  <fjb> TrueBrain: The problem are environments with explosives.
21:07:02  <Sacro|Laptop> D:
21:07:02  <TrueBrain> both a S, both some color on my client .. very annoying ;)
21:07:07  <TrueBrain> fjb: lol :)
21:07:08  <TrueBrain> fair enough ;)
21:07:19  <SpComb> fjb: hmm, you're writing code to handle explosives?
21:08:25  <TrueBrain> big bala boem!
21:08:28  <TrueBrain> (I love 5th element)
21:08:38  <fjb> No, just a device that may be used in an environment with explosives. So the whole device will come optionally in an encapsulated version.
21:08:53  * fjb loves it too.
21:09:15  <SpComb> pity
21:10:07  <TrueBrain> fjb: but one cool job ;)
21:10:41  * SpComb has been employed as a part-time software developer for a month now, and has yet to write any real code
21:10:55  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r14469 /trunk/src/station.cpp: -Fix [FS#2355]: Empty station spreads (e.g. from greyed station signs) were modified in test mode.
21:11:05  * fjb is writing real code to get employed.
21:13:03  <TrueBrain> is going to write a system to automaticly deploy a new image for 80 computers ... next week
21:13:06  <TrueBrain> sounds like fun too :(
21:13:12  <TrueBrain> (windows computers, I hate it :p)
21:13:17  <fjb> They have clever engineers but no real software developer. One of the engineers has chosen the cooperative multitasking os because he understads it's api.
21:14:04  * fjb feels sorry for TrueBrain.
21:14:18  <SpComb> TrueBrain: using multicast!
21:14:30  <TrueBrain> I am currently nuking a lompia (do you write it like that in english) .. I wonder if it tastes good ..
21:14:58  <Rubidium> the taste might be okay, the texture won't be
21:15:00  *** frosch123 [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
21:15:19  <fjb> What is a lompia?
21:15:32  <Rubidium> s/o/u/
21:16:14  <TrueBrain> Rubidium: you are very correct, the texture is bad .. it was already before I put it in
21:16:18  <TrueBrain> but okay, it smells good
21:16:38  <TrueBrain> and as I don't have a .. "frituur", I can only nuke stuff, or heat them
21:16:41  <TrueBrain> so lets try it
21:16:49  <TrueBrain> (if I remain silent for the next 10 minutes, I died)
21:16:50  <fjb> Oh, found it on wikipedia.
21:17:11  <Rubidium> TrueBrain: small cooking pot with a liter of vegetable oil works too
21:17:19  <TrueBrain> ha, clever, the plate you need to put it in, is soaked with oil
21:17:36  <TrueBrain> hmm, a bit hard ... not that tasteful ..
21:17:48  <SpComb> TrueBrain: but still alive?
21:17:48  <TrueBrain> Rubidium: that really is disgusting ..
21:17:56  <TrueBrain> one roommate did that once here ... it ... BAH!
21:18:03  *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@] has joined #openttd
21:18:08  <TrueBrain> SpComb: seemly
21:18:12  <Rubidium> then he most likely didn't do it correctly
21:18:21  <Rubidium> i.e. too hot or too cold
21:18:34  <TrueBrain> Rubidium: well, after you made something
21:18:46  <TrueBrain> it is REALLY disguesting to leave it around for it to cool down
21:18:59  <TrueBrain> the products made by it are fine
21:19:02  <TrueBrain> just the residu :p
21:20:11  <TrueBrain> wow, parts are still frozen
21:20:13  <TrueBrain> no, this sucks
21:20:54  *** Mortal [] has joined #openttd
21:21:00  <Rubidium> anyone in here have experience with "complex text layout" and then especially combining the ligatures?
21:21:26  *** Chrill [] has quit [Quit: Eoin, they killed Kenny!]
21:21:30  * fjb used TeX some years ago.
21:22:10  <TrueBrain> ligatures?
21:22:13  <fjb> It is still worth to look how TeX handles ligatures and stuff.
21:22:24  <Rubidium> TrueBrain:
21:22:36  <fjb> TrueBrain: Two or more characters melting into one.
21:22:44  <SpComb> hot oil + water = win
21:24:11  <TrueBrain> SpComb + fire = loss
21:24:29  *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:24:34  <glx> acid + water is fun too
21:24:42  <fjb> Yeah...
21:25:06  <Rubidium> fjb: that's primarily coded in those unreadable and ununderstandable magic tex files
21:25:13  <TrueBrain> hehe
21:25:30  <TrueBrain> hmm .. my access to my NNTP is failing ..
21:25:34  <fjb> Rubidium: Use LaTeX then. :-)
21:25:55  <Rubidium> yeah, using latex to render OpenTTD texts ;)
21:26:07  <fjb> That sounds like fun.
21:26:42  <fjb> Implement OpenTTD in METAFont.
21:27:03  <Eddi|zuHause> * SpComb has been employed as a part-time software developer for a month now, and has yet to write any real code <- half the time of a project is spent on discussing what should come out of the project
21:27:15  <TrueBrain> I need to buy 2 screens with DVI input .. what would you guys advise? 19"? 21"?
21:27:32  <glx> how much space on the desk ?
21:27:37  <Eddi|zuHause> so it's not uncommon that one month into a project not a single line of code has been written
21:27:41  <Rubidium> 40" with 1920x1080 is too small according to some sources
21:27:41  <TrueBrain> not an issue
21:27:59  <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause: yes, it's pretty much that, but on the other hand, I've never personally met the customer
21:28:05  <TrueBrain> Rubidium: I have a 32" TV at 720p, enough for me :p
21:28:12  <TrueBrain> 32"? 88cm .. dunno what it is in " :p
21:28:22  *** Xerres [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:28:35  <SpComb> but at least I/they have now managed to arrange it such that I don't go to work just to twiddle my thumbs anymore
21:28:35  <glx> yes 88cm
21:28:52  <fjb> What is the resolution of the 19" and 21" monitors?
21:29:31  <TrueBrain> fjb: depends on which one I will pick :p
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21:29:41  <glx> 1680*1050 for the 21" I guess
21:29:45  <TrueBrain> I really wonder if 2x 19" isn't already overkill .. 2x 21" might be complete overkill :(
21:30:01  <TrueBrain> (I now work at 2x 17", but VGA input, and I now have a DVI-I output .. so I can't feed 2 VGAs anymore :p)
21:30:30  <glx> there are DVI-VGA adapters
21:30:30  <Eddi|zuHause> adapter?
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21:30:37  <glx> I use 2 of them
21:30:40  <TrueBrain> glx: DVI-I, as far as I understand, only has a single analog feed
21:30:47  <TrueBrain> so I can't feed 2 VGAs with it
21:31:01  <glx> ha you mean 2 screens on 1 plug
21:31:12  <TrueBrain> I only have 1 (!) DVI-I output
21:31:23  <TrueBrain> which allows 2 DVI screens or 1 DVI and 1 VGA screen
21:31:36  <TrueBrain> normal video cards have 1 DVI-I output and 1 VGA output
21:31:41  <TrueBrain> allow 2 VGA screens to be attached
21:31:49  <glx> or 2 DVI
21:32:06  <TrueBrain> fair enoguh :)
21:32:12  <TrueBrain> I traded my VGA output for a HDMI output :)
21:32:23  <Eddi|zuHause> is there any information about parsing MSVC project/solution files?
21:32:44  <TrueBrain> which my 32" screen loves .. but leaves me with 1 screen for now :p So I was wondering what screen size is still usable ..
21:32:52  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: define 'parsing'
21:32:59  <glx> well 2 DVI-I output and 1 TV-out
21:33:12  <Eddi|zuHause> reading information such as include paths for certain files
21:33:33  <TrueBrain> project files are plain text
21:33:34  <Eddi|zuHause> where i have no actual MSVC file here that i could play with
21:33:36  <TrueBrain> so that should be easy, not?
21:33:43  <glx> TrueBrain: HDMI is compatible with DVI
21:33:46  <TrueBrain> check OpenTTD, in projects/ dir ;)
21:33:50  <TrueBrain> we generate a few :)
21:34:03  <TrueBrain> glx: yup, but doesn't carry an analog signal :(
21:34:25  <glx> indeed else it won't comply with HDMI specs
21:34:54  <glx> Eddi|zuHause: it's a nice XML file
21:34:56  <TrueBrain> well, I wouldn't expect HDMI to carry an analog signal :p Would be nasty ;)
21:35:21  <glx> and that would kill the copyright protection ;)
21:35:21  <TrueBrain> but okay, I need to replace my screens anyway
21:35:24  <TrueBrain> (5 years old already)
21:35:34  <TrueBrain> and I really wonder if 2x 21" isn't complete overkill ..
21:35:48  <TrueBrain> glx: among others ;)
21:36:45  <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: after using them for 2 weeks you're probably going to think how you ever could live without them, or worse, think that they don't even remotely suffice your needs ;)
21:37:06  <TrueBrain> hehe :) I never had that problem with 2x 17" :p
21:37:21  <TrueBrain> but I am afraid I need to get back 1 meter more from the screen when I get them any bigger :p
21:37:22  <TrueBrain> haha
21:37:54  <TrueBrain> on the other end, it would mean if Rubidium and I share a 'screen' (as in application), mine is finally bigger than his :p
21:38:52  <TrueBrain> 5ms or 2ms response time ... where are the times that you could pick between 12ms and 5ms ... 2ms ... omg ...
21:38:59  *** ludde [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:39:27  <Sacro|Laptop> < TrueBrain> ...mine is finally bigger than his :p
21:39:38  <SpComb> they found a new way to measure the figures
21:39:45  <TrueBrain> I was wondering who would put it out of context
21:39:48  <TrueBrain> tnx Sacro|Laptop
21:39:48  <Eddi|zuHause> cheers for totally obvious out of context quote...
21:39:57  <Sacro|Laptop> [22:37] <TrueBrain> but I am afraid I need to get back 1 meter more from the screen when I get them any bigger :p <-huge breasts?
21:40:20  <TrueBrain> really, you are, what, 5 years old?
21:40:29  <TrueBrain> Warning: mysql_select_db() [function.mysql-select-db]: Access denied for user 'apache'@'localhost' (using password: NO) in
21:40:31  <TrueBrain> sounds bad ..
21:40:37  <Sacro|Laptop> TrueBrain: no, just imature
21:40:38  <TrueBrain> (not OpenTTD related website)
21:41:17  <Eddi|zuHause> sounds like your average dictionary attack...
21:42:13  <TrueBrain> well, I tried to logon on my NNTP service website
21:44:55  <Eddi|zuHause> ah... well... i think i'll postpone automatically reading the include paths...
21:45:15  <TrueBrain> Network status: all services are up and running
21:45:20  <TrueBrain> I hate those 'static' status pages ...
21:46:15  <TrueBrain> bah, now I can't download a movie to watch tonight :(
21:46:59  <SpComb> NNTP...
21:47:27  <TrueBrain> yes :) Most useful protocol ever
21:47:31  <TrueBrain> binaries at 100 mbit/sec
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21:49:28  <petern> It's a pretty crap protocol for binary files.
21:49:55  <TrueBrain> torrent is worse ;)
21:50:07  <TrueBrain> well, protocol, yeah, you right :)
21:50:12  <petern> And kids these days think that's what usenet is for...
21:50:16  <TrueBrain> availability is a better word ;)
21:51:10  <fjb> Usenet gets more and more unreadable. :-(
21:51:25  <TrueBrain> you don't want to read usenet :p
21:51:52  <fjb> Not all of it.
21:52:08  <TrueBrain> I can't remmeber I ever read a single article from usenet :p
21:53:05  * fjb feels sorry for TrueBrain.
21:53:16  <TrueBrain> is there any useful there? :)
21:53:35  <petern> There would be if it wasn't full of spam and binaries.
21:53:41  <glx>
21:53:42  <TrueBrain> hehe
21:53:44  <TrueBrain> true
21:53:53  <TrueBrain> still ... people use maillists nowedays :)
21:54:05  <Prof_Frink> agmtt!
21:54:05  <TrueBrain> also full of spam, nevertheless :p
21:54:13  <petern> Once upon time, it was easy to get usenet access.
21:54:29  <petern> These days you need to find a provider that does it.
21:54:37  <glx> I don't have access to alt.bin*
21:54:41  <TrueBrain> test-access is very easy here too
21:54:43  <TrueBrain> text
21:55:59  <petern> There is so much shit that providing an NNTP service is out the question for many ISPs.
21:56:19  * petern wonders what the bandwidth figures are like these days.
21:56:38  <TrueBrain> petern: here they only remove the binaries .. text is still working fine from almost all dutch ISPs (as far as I can track it :p)
21:56:56  <fjb> de.rec.fotografie
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21:58:15  <ln> the same here, virtually all ISPs provide newsgroups, but most of them have dropped binaries groups.
21:58:47  <petern> How many ISPs that provide newsgroup access actually provide their own servers, instead of just some alias to an NNTP provider?
21:59:15  <TrueBrain> text-binaries is _very_ cheap to install
21:59:18  <TrueBrain> a few GBs, and you have them all
21:59:29  *** Xerres [] has joined #openttd
22:03:00  <ln> i'd say most have their own servers
22:03:35  * petern doesn't know where or who to talk to to setup a feed :p
22:03:41  *** MOG [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:03:51  <TrueBrain> hehe
22:03:55  *** [alt]buster [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
22:03:55  <TrueBrain> why would you want to
22:04:03  *** [alt]buster [] has joined #openttd
22:04:11  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: glx * r14470 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ (ai_vehicle.cpp ai_vehicle.hpp ai_vehicle.hpp.sq): [NoAI] -Add: added AIVehicle::GetRefitCapacity
22:04:13  <petern> Exactly. Why would I want to, and why would any other ISP want to?
22:04:52  <ln> newsgroups are an excellent place for the mentally ill to express themselves.
22:04:53  <TrueBrain> are you as person an ISP? :p
22:05:05  <petern> In this context, yes.
22:05:13  <TrueBrain> hehe, fair enough :)
22:05:22  <TrueBrain> I got the request several times already, if there was NNTP access ..
22:06:37  <TrueBrain> but getting a text-feed is relative easy
22:06:40  <TrueBrain> binary-feed costs money :p
22:07:41  <petern> I wouldn't consider a binary feed.
22:08:15  <TrueBrain> leave that to the big boys :)
22:08:30  * Sacro|Laptop is a big boy
22:08:37  <TrueBrain> We are not an end-user ISP, so we don't do NNTP (of any kind)
22:09:44  <petern> Right
22:09:47  * petern is going to sleep
22:10:38  <TrueBrain> night petern
22:10:41  <TrueBrain> enjoy your sleep :)
22:11:30  <TrueBrain> currently there is 3.8 TB of usenet data :p
22:11:45  <TrueBrain> (per day)
22:13:51  *** Muxy [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:17:23  <fjb> How much is it without binaries?
22:19:13  <TrueBrain> I am looking for the last 30 minutes for a page which says that
22:19:15  <TrueBrain> can't find it :(
22:19:19  <TrueBrain> (I had one in the past, but I lost it :()
22:20:23  <fjb> :-(
22:20:53  <TrueBrain> so I thought, I just install a server, and load up the non-binaries
22:21:01  <TrueBrain> but the only server-software I can find, is from 2004 :p
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22:21:15  <fjb> Hm inn?
22:22:15  <TrueBrain> as I said, 2004 :)
22:22:24  <fjb> Then it is stable. :-)
22:23:21  <TrueBrain> like qmail :s
22:23:37  <fjb> 2008-07-10: INN 2.4.5
22:23:52  <fjb> New INN from this year.
22:24:13  <fjb>
22:24:55  <TrueBrain> yeah, security fixes ..
22:26:02  <fjb> What else do you want?
22:26:28  <fjb> I never missed a feature in INN.
22:27:24  <TrueBrain> it is not about that ... as I said: like qmail :p
22:27:32  <TrueBrain> qmail is nice and all .. but it is old
22:27:36  <TrueBrain> it misses new technoligies
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22:28:30  <fjb> But what new technology is needed for an nntp server. Nntp is an old protocol.
22:29:10  <TrueBrain> still .. I can't believe there is nothing to do for it :)
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22:29:21  <TrueBrain> OpenTTD is an old game
22:29:23  <TrueBrain> yet here we are :)
22:29:39  <TrueBrain> but okay, if you have INN installed, you can tell me the size of non-binaries ;)
22:29:42  *** Gekz [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:30:25  <fjb> But there are still some things people miss in OpenTTD. Do you miss anything in INN? Spamfilters are external tools.
22:30:55  <TrueBrain> same was said about qmail .. yet exim is much more popular nowedays :)
22:31:05  <fjb> I don't have INN installed at the moment. That is planed for next month (since about three years).
22:31:15  <TrueBrain> hahaha :)
22:31:26  <TrueBrain> too bad my remote NNTP server is still not responding :(
22:32:26  <fjb> A lot of things got added to smtp. Nntp is different. Still I don't know what people like about exim.
22:32:51  *** Vikthor [] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
22:32:55  <TrueBrain> it is not what I personally like about exim, it is more what I dislike about qmail :)
22:33:05  <TrueBrain> in general it is bad to have the need to patch up qmail with N patches
22:33:11  <TrueBrain> they tend to make things slightly unstable ;)
22:33:18  <fjb> I never used qmail.
22:33:43  <fjb> Yes, too much patching is not good. See OpenTTD *in.
22:35:00  *** Yeggstry is now known as Yeggzzz
22:35:42  <TrueBrain> ;)
22:37:06  <fjb> I'm using Postfix for mail. I does everything I need and it is really fast.
22:39:41  <TrueBrain> I dislike Postfix very much
22:40:05  <SmatZ> what are you using then ?
22:40:09  <SmatZ> just curious :)
22:40:18  <fjb> Exim. :-)
22:40:25  <TrueBrain> exim
22:40:28  <SmatZ> exim
22:40:35  <SmatZ> ok, never tried it :)
22:40:38  <TrueBrain> as my father will say: the best of the worst
22:40:50  <TrueBrain> exim4 is kind of the default in a new install
22:40:58  <TrueBrain> debian even installs it without you wanting ;)
22:41:10  <SmatZ> :)
22:41:14  <SmatZ> sounds windows-like :)
22:41:26  <SmatZ> it's full of stuff noone wants
22:41:38  <SmatZ> but nah, debian is very fine :)
22:41:40  <fjb> Sendmail is cool. I once thought about teaching it game of life.
22:42:12  <TrueBrain> I dislike debian, but for other reasons :) It install exim is in fact fine, yes
22:42:16  <TrueBrain> Gentoo still does sendmail
22:42:37  <vvv444> Only way to get just the software you want is installing LFS :)
22:42:39  <fjb> Sendmail is not bad if you know how to handle it.
22:43:19  <TrueBrain> fjb: you know you contradict yourself there? :p
22:43:42  <TrueBrain> vvv444: you also might want to try Gentoo
22:43:47  <TrueBrain> does nothing you don't want
22:44:00  <fjb> No, there are some corner cases where sendmail may be the only way to go.
22:44:14  <SmatZ> Gentoo is the best of course ;-)
22:44:30  <TrueBrain> fjb: I was more talking about: "not bad" against "know how to handle"
22:44:30  <TrueBrain> ;)
22:44:36  <SmatZ> best distro I ever used (not that I used more than 5 ;)
22:44:36  <vvv444> I haven't said I use LFS, it's quite suicidal. I just said any other distro will have some things you don't want. But you're right Gentoo is quite fine.
22:44:45  <fjb> Gentoo sounds like Linux, so it can not be the best. :-P
22:45:02  <TrueBrain> SmatZ: I agree with you there :) Trying out debian now again .. dislike it already :p (more exact: the defaults of Gentoo in general are SO MUCH BETTER)
22:45:24  <SmatZ> :-)
22:45:41  <TrueBrain> but okay, you need more time to do things in Gentoo ... specific: updating your system can be a pain in the ass :)
22:45:45  <TrueBrain> (and drain your CPU :p)
22:45:58  * Rubidium dislikes Gentoo's handling of remote exploits
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22:46:12  <SmatZ> Rubidium: please explain :)
22:46:13  <TrueBrain> Rubidium: why?
22:46:15  <TrueBrain> glsa works fine
22:46:28  * fjb starts to dislike Nut/OS.
22:46:33  <Rubidium> <- QED
22:46:43  <Rubidium> "We'll fix it when we fix it.
22:46:59  <TrueBrain> Rubidium: you truly base that statement on one (!) report?
22:47:20  <TrueBrain> nevertheless, they handled it fine
22:47:23  <SmatZ> yeah, Gentoo maintainter of openttd looks pretty dead :) so last official version is 0.5.3...
22:47:27  <TrueBrain> the software was removed from normal use
22:47:38  <SmatZ> and yeah, it was masked
22:47:39  <TrueBrain> just what SmatZ says, no maintainer
22:47:52  <TrueBrain> reminds me, I really need to put up an ebuild for both stables and nightlies
22:47:57  <Rubidium> TrueBrain: and everybody who used OpenTTD has been left with an exploitable binary
22:48:03  <TrueBrain> a nice layman overlay will do fine I guess
22:48:13  <TrueBrain> Rubidium: no, when updating it tells you it is masked
22:48:18  <TrueBrain> so you either need to remove it
22:48:22  <TrueBrain> or override the mask
22:48:29  <Wolf01> 'night
22:48:33  <TrueBrain> either way, you know you will be using a program that has problems
22:48:34  *** Wolf01 [] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
22:48:37  <TrueBrain> night Wolf01
22:49:01  <vvv444> Rubidium: Everyone who cared indeed was welcome to compile latest version himself...
22:49:30  <TrueBrain> Rubidium: in fact, when updating, it downgrades OpenTTD to 0.5.3
22:49:35  <Rubidium> and everyone who cared enough to make an updated ebuild got "silenced"
22:49:42  <TrueBrain> and if that is faulty too, a CVE should be created to indicate 0.5.3 is bad :)
22:49:53  <TrueBrain> Rubidium: maintainers are, as everywhere, a problem
22:49:58  <TrueBrain> which you can't put in the shoes of Gentoo itself
22:50:10  <TrueBrain> now you sound exactly like a few patch writers we hav ein this project
22:50:16  <TrueBrain> because they can't get their patch in, OpenTTD is bad
22:50:45  <TrueBrain> but as said, remind me tomorrow or so to produce Gentoo ebuilds
22:50:51  <TrueBrain> then we are done with the whole problem all together :)
22:51:20  <SmatZ> Rubidium: emerge will tell you you have a masked binary installed
22:51:59  <Rubidium> TrueBrain: if "they" would've cared enough to read the reports they'd've found out 0.5.3 is bad too
22:52:15  <SmatZ>
22:52:16  <fjb> Writing software without hardware or an emulator to run it on is no fun. :-(
22:52:21  <TrueBrain> Rubidium: not by CVE
22:52:45  <TrueBrain> poor fjb :)
22:52:48  <Rubidium> well, CVE just plainly sucks
22:52:54  <fjb> Thank you.
22:53:06  <TrueBrain> SmatZ: 0.5.3 is masked too?
22:53:23  <TrueBrain> Rubidium: I start to think you think everything sucks? :)
22:53:27  <Rubidium> <- the description is fairly clear that 0.5.3 is affected too (at least to me)
22:53:44  <TrueBrain> well, as SmatZ just showed, 0.5.3 is masked too, so they picked up :)
22:54:07  <Rubidium> TrueBrain: I don't think everything sucks, but a lot of things actually do suck
22:54:23  <TrueBrain> now all is left is to find a girl who sucks .. hmm ..
22:56:01  <TrueBrain> is it okay to put the gentoo ebuild overlay in svn?
22:56:09  <TrueBrain> or do you want me to setup a seperate something for it?
22:56:57  <Rubidium> fine by me
22:56:59  <Rubidium> os/gentoo ?
22:57:29  <TrueBrain> I would not advise putting it inside trunk
22:57:32  <TrueBrain> it needs to be seperate
22:57:39  <TrueBrain> as it will contain a complete overlay, with all available versions
22:57:45  <TrueBrain> (that is how Gentoo ebuild system works)
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22:58:02  <TrueBrain> that means users do: layman svn://....
22:58:06  <TrueBrain> and they can do: emerge openttd
22:58:12  <TrueBrain> (well, not that black-and-white, but the basic idea :p)
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23:00:20  <Rubidium> anyhow, reason CVE sucks: release notes saying that it might eventually be possible to overflow internal buffer with max 2 bytes with constant values (with proof it doesn't actually happen as of now) gets a CVE report and then when you've got full proof of a remotely exploitable buffer overrun of ~1300 bytes with lots of exploiter "configurable" bytes gets no CVE report
23:02:01  <TrueBrain> ah, my NNTP is back online
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23:05:38  <ln>
23:06:29  <TrueBrain>     # Don't pre-strip binaries (bug #137822)
23:06:31  <TrueBrain>     sed -i -e '/+= -s$/s/-s//' Makefile || die "sed failed"
23:06:31  <TrueBrain> lol
23:08:41  <fjb> Hm, what OS would you recomment to do real time stuff on an arm7?
23:09:19  <TrueBrain> linux
23:09:45  <Rubidium> 0.5 NDS ;)
23:10:44  <fjb> Why Linux? Is that not a bit heavy fpr an arm7? At least it has preemtive multitasking.
23:10:49  <fjb> What is NDS?
23:11:53  <Rubidium> when I start explaining it isn't funny anymore
23:12:46  *** stillunknown [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:12:48  <TrueBrain> hmm ... I know too little about Gentoo FHS policy ...
23:12:55  <fjb> Hm, sounds like something to play games.
23:13:03  <fjb> :-)
23:13:24  <fjb> What about ecos? looks nice but I didn't try it yet.
23:14:46  <SmatZ> [00:58:02] <TrueBrain> that means users do: layman svn://.... <=== good idea :)
23:14:52  <SmatZ> sorry I was away
23:14:55  <Rubidium> bah, can't find the name of the OS used by the largest number of devices
23:15:01  <SmatZ> and now I am in bed, nn all :)
23:15:11  <TrueBrain> symbian?
23:15:15  <TrueBrain> night SmatZ
23:15:33  <vvv444> fjb: All ARM projects I had taken part at haven't used OS. Not necessary for small projects.
23:15:34  <Rubidium> it's ITRON
23:16:46  <fjb> Itron is more an API than an OS, afaik. Ecos supports ITRON Api.
23:17:23  <fjb> I need an OS, network stack, http server etc...
23:17:39  <vvv444> Well, if so Linux is good :)
23:18:09  <Rubidium> what are the rough specs (rom/ram)
23:18:23  * vvv444 heard of uClinux but never tried it
23:18:52  <fjb> The OS they gave me is solely to suport its network stack. It is designed for small embedded webservers and the vendor references its kernel as rtos. But it uses cooperative multitasking. :-(
23:19:13  <fjb> 256K flash rom and 64k ram.
23:19:24  <fjb> 48MHz arm7.
23:19:42  <ln> err... 64k ram is definitely not enough for linux.
23:20:34  <fjb> And there must be enough ram left for the application. thought it will not need that much.
23:21:25  <Rubidium> I'd say take a look at the list at the bottom of
23:21:26  <TrueBrain> Rubidium: be glad the 0.6.3 ebuild is not accepted
23:21:27  <fjb> Proposed os is Nut/OS:
23:21:31  <TrueBrain> it still uses old makefile thingies :s
23:22:11  <fjb> Rubidium: Thank you.
23:22:51  <TrueBrain> unicode for linux, useful or not?
23:23:07  <Rubidium> TrueBrain: yes
23:23:37  <Rubidium> unless you want to get flamed by the russians, chinese, japanese and many eastern europeans
23:24:26  <TrueBrain> by default unicode is OFF on linux
23:24:42  <fjb> Hm, Nut/OS fails almost the whole description on
23:25:00  <TrueBrain>         echo "  --disable-unicode              disable unicode support to build win9x"
23:25:00  <TrueBrain>         echo "                                 version (Win32 ONLY)"
23:25:14  <TrueBrain> so I guess it is useless in linux :p
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23:34:07  <Sacro|Laptop> sigh, autotools confuse me
23:35:14  <TrueBrain> reason we don't use htem :p
23:35:39  <TrueBrain> -DGLOBAL_DATA_DIR=\"/usr/games/share/games/openttd\"
23:35:43  <TrueBrain> looks like a weird dir to me
23:41:29  <Sacro|Laptop> :\
23:41:33  <Sacro|Laptop> needs more slashes
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23:48:06  <TrueBrain> okay, I need to install an other game on Gentoo to see where they want the files :)
23:49:01  <TrueBrain> we have /usr/share/games, and /usr/games/share ... how lvoely!
23:49:05  <fjb> autotools tried to bite me.
23:55:02  <Sacro|Laptop> TrueBrain: Arch is using /usr/share/openttd
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23:55:12  <Sacro|Laptop> but I think /usr/share/games is most likely
23:55:14  <TrueBrain> Sacro|Laptop: not useful, not one bit
23:55:31  <TrueBrain> it is not a game of gamble
23:55:35  <TrueBrain> each distro has rules for that
23:55:39  <TrueBrain> might be suprising ;)
23:57:23  <TrueBrain> hmm, you can't configure OpenTTD enough to make Gentoo happy
23:57:31  <TrueBrain> I have to say, it is a bit weird, install dir stuff :)
23:57:39  <TrueBrain> INSTALL_MENU_DIR = "$(INSTALL_DIR)/$(MENU_DIR)"
23:57:39  <TrueBrain> INSTALL_ICON_DIR = "$(INSTALL_DIR)/"/share/pixmaps
23:57:43  <TrueBrain> I can configure one, but not the other ;)
23:58:31  <TrueBrain> oh, icon-dir ..
23:58:32  <TrueBrain> lol
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23:59:29  <ovi> hello, could somebody help me out with a server issue?
23:59:37  <Sacro|Laptop> TrueBrain: hmm, I wrote the build files for ArchLinux
23:59:54  <TrueBrain> Sacro|Laptop: my point is, Arch != Gentoo

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