Times are UTC Toggle Colours
00:00:22 <Aali> if you want them to enter every depot, just remove the other track so they dont have a choice 00:00:44 <Eddi|zuHause2> if you have service orders, they will be skipped if service is not needed, and the next order is started. while the train is not at a service order, it will never service 00:01:21 <Eddi|zuHause2> if you want the trains to go to depots on the way, you need to remove all service in depot orders 00:01:30 <Aali> oh wait, you just said you didn't want that 00:02:34 <Eddi|zuHause2> or add waypoints before the depot track, so you add orders like: 1. go to waypoint right in front of depot, 2. service at depot, 3. go to station 00:03:23 <Eddi|zuHause2> then, at the waypoint, it is checked for serviceing, not on leaving the previous station, which might be a long time 00:04:43 <Eddi|zuHause2> get what i mean? 00:05:36 <Char> yes 00:05:43 <Char> so i need waypoints for what i want 00:05:45 <Char> not nice 00:05:47 <Char> but well 00:05:47 <Aali> well, if he wants to service every 110 days, it would just be a simple matter of removing the service orders, no? 00:05:54 <Char> no its not 00:06:02 <Aali> assuming there's always an accessible depot 00:06:03 <Char> if i have the oders as non-stop 00:06:08 <Aali> doesn't matter 00:06:14 <Char> than the train seems to not even stop for servicing 00:06:39 <Char> non-stop seems to override servicing 00:06:41 <Aali> non-stop determines if trains stop at stations other than their current destination 00:06:49 <Char> well 00:06:57 <Char> i will try.... 00:06:58 <Aali> it has nothing to do with servicing 00:07:05 <Char> it seems to have... you sure? 00:07:17 <glx> <Char> i have train depots every 80 tiles or so <-- the gap between depots is too big 00:07:46 <glx> when a train searches for a depot it look at 16 tiles at most 00:08:33 *** Bjarni [~Bjarni@0x50a46ad5.virnxx14.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:09:30 <Char> hmmm 00:09:38 <Char> strange 00:09:39 <Char> now it works 00:09:44 <Char> removed the non-stop stuff 00:09:48 <Char> and it seems to work 00:10:00 <Aali> :/ 00:10:43 <Aali> which version of ottd are you running? 00:11:16 <Aali> i always use non-stop orders and my trains obey the service interval 00:11:51 <Eddi|zuHause2> yeah, non-stop should have absolutely no influence on servicing 00:11:56 *** Chrill [~chrischri@c80-216-96-107.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #openttd 00:13:37 *** Digitalfox [~Digitalfo@bl10-221-19.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Bye] 00:19:15 <Char> but it seems to have 00:19:21 <Char> did any of you ever try? 00:20:50 <Char> wow 00:20:57 <Char> i think i never ever got so rich so fast 00:21:23 <Char> but maybe it just looks like because of the currency (swiss francs) 00:22:23 <Belugas> "I Love You, I'm going to Blow Up your School" 00:22:29 <Belugas> MARVELOUS!!! 00:22:36 <Belugas> fucking great album, 00:22:42 <Belugas> a m a z i n g! 00:27:16 *** Sacro [~ben@adsl-87-102-39-137.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:27:29 <SmatZ> :-) 00:27:31 *** Sacro [~ben@adsl-87-102-39-137.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd 00:27:52 <Sacro> UKRS looks borked in trunk 00:29:19 <Sacro> it seems a fair few trains are missing 00:29:27 <Sacro> and the class 33 is dual headed :o 00:29:30 <Char> belugas: what band is that?!? 00:30:16 <Char> hmmm. breakdowns are considerably slowing down my mainline :/ 00:32:20 <Sacro> argh 00:32:27 <Sacro> UKRS is borked in stable too D: 00:32:51 <Char> ? 00:32:56 *** Eddi|zuHause2 [~johekr@p54B74DF1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 00:33:08 <glx> Sacro: newgrf conflict maybe 00:33:21 <Sacro> glx: hmm 00:33:24 *** Eddi|zuHause2 [~johekr@p54B77DFC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 00:33:26 <Sacro> perhaps my grf order is wrong 00:35:08 *** Rexxars [~rexxars@62.113.133.253] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:35:32 <Char> hey guys 00:35:49 <Char> any tips on how to handle a crowded mainline when breakdowns are active? 00:35:59 <Aali> 1. don't 00:36:14 <glx> double the tracks and use cross over 00:36:18 <Aali> 2. get the improved breakdowns patch 00:36:35 <Char> improved breakdowns? 00:36:48 <Aali> seriously, i've never seen a good, working overtaking system 00:36:53 <Char> glx, that means i need PBS right? 00:37:10 <glx> Aali: 2 is good only if you have multiple engines 00:37:21 <Char> which i dont 00:37:21 <Aali> Char: its a patch that makes breakdowns more realistic and way less frequent 00:37:24 <Char> ;) 00:37:29 <Aali> no it isn't 00:38:34 <Aali> it makes a HUGE difference to single-engine trains aswell 00:38:55 <Char> well 00:39:12 <Char> if it just reduces breakdowns i could as well play with reduced breakdowns ;) 00:39:21 *** Sacro [~ben@adsl-87-102-39-137.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:39:22 *** Sacro|Laptop [~ben@adsl-87-102-39-137.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd 00:39:25 <Aali> it does more than that 00:39:31 <Char> hmmm 00:39:34 <Char> what else does it do? 00:39:35 <Aali> trains can break down in a number of ways 00:39:50 <Aali> instead of just stopping with black smoke 00:40:22 <Eddi|zuHause2> yeah, it can also temporarily reduce power or speed 00:40:26 <Aali> thats still in there, called a mechanical failure, then there's emergency stop, power reduction and max speed reduction 00:41:35 <Char> hmmm 00:41:37 <Aali> so, use an engine thats faster than your trains will ever go (if you're playing with wagon speed limits) and with some extra hp and the game will actually be playable with breakdowns turned on 00:41:51 <Char> well 00:42:02 <Char> the game is playable with normal breakdowns turned on as well 00:42:11 <Char> just the lines can handle way less 00:42:23 <Aali> indeed 00:42:40 <Char> there is a limit to how much you can actually get through a single-lane mainline 00:43:07 <Char> and for a reasonable double-lane mainline which i am about to build i guess i will need path based signals 00:43:12 <Char> or pre-signals 00:43:18 <Char> so that trains will actually overtake 00:44:01 *** Rexxars [~rexxars@62.113.133.253] has joined #openttd 00:44:05 <Char> if one is broken down 00:44:24 <Aali> that doesn't work if it breaks down at the switch though 00:45:17 <Aali> and you usually end up with trains trying to overtake each other in a criss-cross pattern 00:47:28 <Char> that might be true 00:47:29 <Char> ;) 00:48:01 <Aali> i'm not saying you shouldn't try though, thats just some of the things you want to think about while building it :P 00:48:34 <Char> hmmm 00:48:36 <Char> well 00:48:43 <Char> i will need to start a new game for that though 00:48:54 <Char> cause this is my first mainline ever, so.... 00:48:59 <Char> and its only single-lane 00:49:52 *** Chrill [~chrischri@c80-216-96-107.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [] 00:50:25 <Char> road vehicles are much more intelligent ;) 00:50:48 <Aali> road vehicles are harder to control 00:51:12 <Aali> and they are not very good at avoiding deadlocks 00:53:51 <Char> hmmm 00:54:02 <Char> i actually dont like road vehicles 00:54:06 <Char> just use them as feeders 00:58:10 *** Frostregen [~sucks@dslb-084-058-178-201.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: und weg] 01:00:21 <Eddi|zuHause2> i use trams very often 01:01:42 <Aali> trams are much cooler than RVs :) 01:03:51 *** NukeBuster [~NukeBuste@80.101.115.82] has quit [Quit: http://www.interplay.com/] 01:05:01 *** GoneWacko [~GoneWacko@dhcp-077-249-197-241.chello.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:05:14 *** GoneWacko [~GoneWacko@dhcp-077-249-197-241.chello.nl] has joined #openttd 01:11:38 <Char> great 01:11:44 <Char> i have to rebuild my mainline :/ 01:13:29 *** GoneWacko [~GoneWacko@dhcp-077-249-197-241.chello.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:14:51 <bleepy> yay? 01:15:01 <Char> just a question. is there any estimates around how much cargo a mainline should be able to handle? 01:15:06 <Char> i.e. in tons / month 01:15:49 <Aali> that depends on a number of factors :P 01:15:55 *** GoneWacko [~GoneWacko@dhcp-077-249-197-241.chello.nl] has joined #openttd 01:15:55 *** GoneWacko [~GoneWacko@dhcp-077-249-197-241.chello.nl] has quit [] 01:16:37 *** GoneWacko [~GoneWacko@dhcp-077-249-197-241.chello.nl] has joined #openttd 01:16:53 <Char> yeah i know 01:16:55 <Char> like train speed 01:17:02 <Char> and train length 01:17:10 <Char> and whether breakdowns are on or off :P 01:17:38 <Char> cause my (single-lane) mainline is not able to handle more than ~1500 tons of stuff a month 01:17:47 <Char> maybe 2000 01:19:51 <ben_goodger> hmm 01:20:01 <ben_goodger> network design efficiency is likely to be a limiting factor 01:20:12 <Aali> Char: how many trains? and how long? 01:20:14 <ben_goodger> try using path-based signals if they're supported by your build 01:20:55 <Char> well 01:20:58 <Char> i guess they are 01:21:04 <Char> since it is the latest nightly build ;) 01:21:17 <Char> i will have to dig into this path-based signalling 01:21:20 <Char> but maybe not tonight 01:21:53 <Aali> soo, how many trains do you have? 01:24:23 <Char> like, in total? 01:24:28 <Aali> yeah 01:24:33 <Char> 43 01:24:34 <Eddi|zuHause2> longer trains tend to increase line capacity, but decrease junction capacity 01:24:50 <Char> train length 12 01:25:02 <Eddi|zuHause2> 12 half-tiles? 01:25:06 <Char> yeah 01:25:07 <Aali> when you have a 100, you'll see why breakdowns are so bad ;) 01:25:12 <Aali> so, TL6 then 01:25:21 <Char> ah okay 01:25:27 <Char> thats how you calculate 01:26:01 <Eddi|zuHause2> i try to design my networks around 10 tiles 01:26:01 <Char> things start to get pretty messed up 01:26:25 <Eddi|zuHause2> feeder trains can be shorter 01:26:41 <Aali> tl10? thats just painful 01:27:24 <Eddi|zuHause2> but i do also play with reduced cargo amounts 01:27:27 <Aali> i use that for secondary goods that never go on the mainline 01:29:14 <Char> hmmm 01:29:17 <Char> i guess 01:29:33 <Char> for starters i will try to design a working network without breakdowns 01:29:41 <Char> which is probably already not quite easy 01:29:50 <Char> but the breakdowns completely break this 01:30:16 <Aali> but then my mainline is LLL_RRR or more, which already makes for some rather large junctions 01:30:24 <Char> i got ~10 breakdowns a year per train 01:31:23 <Char> and i just realized that one of my stations is designed pretty poorly 01:40:04 *** Wezz6400 [~Wezz6400@145-118-111-36.fttx.bbned.nl] has quit [Quit: Caught sigterm, terminating...] 01:43:24 <ben_goodger> I've several lines that are five squares longer than the size of the train, including two two-square stations 01:43:34 <ben_goodger> they tend to be very quick ^^ 01:53:56 *** Fuco [~dota.keys@ip-105.imafexbb.sk] has quit [Quit: Quit] 02:12:59 *** Wolfensteijn [~Wolfenste@dhcp-077-250-018-164.chello.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:24:02 *** Sacro|Laptop [~ben@adsl-87-102-39-137.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:24:16 *** ecke [~ecke@213.195.202.130] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:24:23 *** Char [~Ich@d83-180-255-21.cust.tele2.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:25:32 *** ben_goodger is now known as benjamingoodger 02:50:52 *** Dred_furst [~Dred_furs@resnet686.bournemouth.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:54:34 *** welshdragon [~vista@87.102.21.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 03:11:01 *** glx [glx@bny93-6-82-245-156-124.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: bye] 03:41:01 *** benjamingoodger [~ben@host217-44-221-18.range217-44.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Good pie!] 03:53:11 *** solid_liq [~mike@75-164-105-236.tcsn.qwest.net] has joined #openttd 03:53:15 <solid_liq> hi 03:53:28 * solid_liq needs a little help 03:55:26 <solid_liq> I get a number of ?'s (question marks) instead of graphics and letters in various places (the most annoying being in place of railroad signals). When I start the game, it says the font I'm using is missing some of the characters needed for the language, and to see the readme file for how to fix it. The readme file and the website both don't say anything about how to fix this, tho I did find unset font options in the openttd.cfg file. I'm 03:56:37 <solid_liq> Oh, and for some reason, the signals will appear after a while, but only new ones... maybe this is the electronic vs. mechanical ones I just read something about... 04:11:11 <ccfreak2k> If new signals appear after 1975, then you're probably just "missing" the old-style semaphores. 04:23:35 <petern> missing openttdw.grf? 04:23:48 <petern> or wrong version of 04:23:50 *** dih [~dih@members.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Quit: ===openttdcoop.org=== :tiuQ] 04:31:46 *** dihedral [~dih@dslb-088-066-146-189.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 04:32:22 <solid_liq> I don't think I am 04:33:18 <solid_liq> petern: yeah, I am missing it... where do I get that? 04:35:29 <solid_liq> ccfreak2k: it's more than just missing signals, there are a bunch of missing icons... missing signals is the worst tho because I can't see which way they'r facing 04:35:33 <dihedral> with your copy of openttd usually 04:35:57 <solid_liq> dihedral: hmmm, what dir does it install to? 04:36:11 <dihedral> start from the very beginning 04:36:17 <dihedral> what did you download and from where 04:36:39 <dihedral> and how can you say it's missing if you dont know where to find it? 04:37:16 <solid_liq> hmm, dpkg shows the file, but it's not in the directory dpkg says it should be in 04:37:34 <solid_liq> dihedral: I'm on debian sid, so I just did: aptitude install openttd 04:38:02 <solid_liq> then copied the other .grf files over from the transport tycoon installer 04:38:13 <dihedral> locate openttd ? 04:38:18 <dihedral> after a updatedb 04:38:29 <dihedral> or usually games whould be installed in /usr/games ? 04:38:35 <dihedral> perhaps look in /usr/share/games ? 04:38:40 <dihedral> or /usr/share/openttd 04:38:45 <solid_liq> I see the dir just fine 04:38:54 <dihedral> often enough there is also /usr/share/docs/<appname> 04:38:55 <solid_liq> I mean the openttdw.grf file isn't there 04:39:02 <dihedral> which dir 04:39:17 <dihedral> i have mentioned about 4 04:39:18 <solid_liq> /usr/share/games/openttd/data/ 04:39:21 <dihedral> ah 04:39:31 <dihedral> run updatedb 04:39:34 <dihedral> as root 04:40:13 <solid_liq> I don't have locate/slocate/updatedb installed it looks like... 04:40:15 <solid_liq> just a sec 04:41:34 *** dih [~dih@vs241204.vserver.de] has joined #openttd 04:42:05 *** dih is now known as Guest462 04:42:12 <dihedral> yay - welcome back self 04:42:12 <solid_liq> okay, it'll take a few minutes to build the database, I have about 400GB of files to index 04:42:26 <dihedral> lol 04:43:14 *** Guest462 is now known as dih 04:45:37 <dih> much better this way :-) 04:45:43 *** dihedral [~dih@dslb-088-066-146-189.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:58:15 <solid_liq> dih: okay, locate didn't find it 04:58:28 <petern> so it's in dpkg -L but not actually there? 04:58:55 <dih> petern, dpkg -L should not even list the files, only the packages 05:00:06 <dih> anyway - i am off - time to get ready to head for work 05:00:48 <solid_liq> yeah 05:00:50 <solid_liq> petern: yeah 05:01:17 <solid_liq> dih: dpkg -L has always listed the files in a pkg for me... with dpkg -L openttd anyway 05:02:27 <solid_liq> dih: you must be thinking of lowercase l 05:06:55 <solid_liq> okay, cool, I'll restart it now and see if it's fixed :) 05:08:11 <solid_liq> sweet! It looks a lot better now! I didn't have any animated game going in the background before when I started openttd :) 05:08:20 <solid_liq> and the font is much better 05:08:30 <solid_liq> thanks a lot to everyone who helped :D 05:19:34 *** roboboy [3aad2910@webchat.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 05:29:34 *** Singaporekid [~notme@cm88.psi148.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #openttd 05:33:16 *** Dr_Jekyll [Dr_Jekyll@p57B0F5CA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: http://www.lagerwiki.de - das Wiki rund um's Thema Lager und Logistik] 05:52:06 *** TinoM [~Tino@i59F5F9AA.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 05:52:06 *** Gekz [~brendan@123-243-206-102.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:55:01 *** Gekz [~brendan@123-243-206-102.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #openttd 06:08:19 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@89.246.164.115] has joined #openttd 06:08:25 *** Doorslammer [Doorslamme@PIPP-p-203-54-115-46.prem.tmns.net.au] has joined #openttd 06:22:08 *** roboboy [3aad2910@webchat.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 06:34:13 *** roboboy [3aad2910@webchat.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 06:37:17 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@89.246.164.115] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:54:29 *** DJNekkid [~chatzilla@static128-249.adsl.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 06:57:40 *** Gekz [~brendan@123-243-206-102.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 07:02:39 *** Mortal [~mortal@217.61.144.15] has joined #openttd 07:06:10 *** Doorslammer [Doorslamme@PIPP-p-203-54-115-46.prem.tmns.net.au] has quit [Quit: I'll get you next episode, Inspector Gadget! NEXT EPISODE!] 07:11:55 *** wolfy [~Wolfenste@dhcp-077-250-018-164.chello.nl] has joined #openttd 07:13:04 *** wolfy is now known as Wolfensteijn 07:16:25 *** FloSoft [~sifldoer@g229118046.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #openttd 07:35:23 *** Gekz [~brendan@123-243-206-102.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #openttd 07:36:15 *** iwein [~iwein@s559100ee.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #openttd 08:01:18 *** Yeggzzz is now known as Yeggs-work 08:06:48 *** Wezz6400 [~Wezz6400@145-118-111-36.fttx.bbned.nl] has joined #openttd 08:15:19 *** Wezz6400 [~Wezz6400@145-118-111-36.fttx.bbned.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 08:37:34 *** tokai [~tokai@p54B83DC6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 08:38:12 *** planetmaker [~pm@members.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Quit: ...und tschÃŒÃ!] 08:39:12 *** tokai [~tokai@p54B81819.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 08:39:14 *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai] by ChanServ 08:39:14 *** planetmaker [~pm@vs241204.vserver.de] has joined #openttd 08:39:30 *** mortal` [~mortal@217.61.144.15] has joined #openttd 08:40:57 *** helb [~helb@84.244.90.203] has joined #openttd 08:41:50 *** Wezz6400 [~Wezz6400@145-118-111-36.fttx.bbned.nl] has joined #openttd 08:42:31 *** Celestar [~Jadzia_Da@129.187.69.65] has joined #openttd 08:42:34 *** mode/#openttd [+o Celestar] by ChanServ 08:42:45 <Celestar> morning 08:43:33 <planetmaker> good morning Celestar 08:44:16 *** Ammler [~Ammler@members.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Quit: ZNC by prozac - 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http://znc.sourceforge.net] 09:48:55 *** SmatZ [~SmatZ@vs241204.vserver.de] has joined #openttd 09:49:19 *** SmatZ is now known as Guest484 09:49:20 *** SmatZ [~smatz@a40-prg1-5-107.static.adsl.vol.cz] has joined #openttd 09:50:48 *** Brianetta [~brian@client-82-26-69-27.bmly.adsl.virgin.net] has joined #openttd 09:51:31 *** SmatZ is now known as Guest485 09:51:31 *** Guest484 is now known as SmatZ 09:51:32 *** Guest485 [~smatz@a40-prg1-5-107.static.adsl.vol.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:00:24 *** Vikthor [~Vikthor@snat3.arachne.cz] has joined #openttd 10:03:43 *** mikl_ [~mikl@cpe.ge-0-2-0-812.0x50c774be.boanqu1.customer.tele.dk] has joined #openttd 10:06:34 *** welshdragon [~vista@87.102.21.185] has joined #openttd 10:09:15 *** mikl [~mikl@cpe.ge-0-2-0-812.0x50c774be.boanqu1.customer.tele.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 10:10:51 *** stillunknown [~stillunkn@82-136-225-75.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #openttd 10:11:48 *** roboboy [3aad2910@webchat.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 10:37:19 *** mortal` [~mortal@217.61.144.15] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 10:40:03 *** Purno [~Purno@5350931D.cable.casema.nl] has joined #openttd 10:57:08 *** Zahl_ [~Zahl@g228074040.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #openttd 11:03:59 *** Zahl [~Zahl@g228074040.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:03:59 *** Zahl_ is now known as Zahl 11:08:08 *** Yexo [~Yexo@32-88-ftth.onsneteindhoven.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:20:39 * Celestar rofls 11:21:51 <Celestar> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzJmTCYmo9g 11:21:55 <Celestar> so cool 11:22:57 <dih> tood morning Celestar 11:23:41 <Celestar> :) 11:23:57 <dih> ah 11:23:58 <dih> good 11:24:00 <dih> :P 11:27:14 *** Char [~Ich@d83-176-55-29.cust.tele2.ch] has joined #openttd 11:29:24 *** [com]buster [~Combuster@82-171-220-59.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:30:08 <welshdragon> hmm 11:30:39 * welshdragon has a bot similar to babyottd, but is now afraid to use it 11:31:09 <dih> lol 11:31:21 <dih> you can in #welshdragonsbot 11:31:30 <Brianetta> PyBorg is being worked on by my LUG 11:31:36 <welshdragon> dih, it's in simsig 11:31:39 <Brianetta> well, specifically, by one or two in the LUG 11:31:43 <welshdragon> (#simsig) 11:32:05 <welshdragon> Brianetta, is that the program you used for babyottd? 11:32:09 <Brianetta> yes 11:32:11 <welshdragon> aah 11:32:25 * welshdragon is uisng http://dustyant.com/dev/deebot/ 11:32:47 *** [com]buster [~Combuster@82-171-220-59.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #openttd 11:34:39 *** iwein [~iwein@s559100ee.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [Quit: iwein] 11:37:10 <welshdragon> http://qdb.tt-forums.net/index.cgi?action=queue - my bot is as good as any 11:40:37 *** roboboy [3aad2910@webchat.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 11:46:46 *** Doorslammer [Doorslamme@PIPP-p-144-134-197-2.prem.tmns.net.au] has joined #openttd 11:52:16 *** Runr [~Runar@87.248.26.52] has joined #openttd 12:05:34 <Brianetta> deebot isn't as pure as pyborg 12:07:19 * Celestar sneezes 12:10:02 <welshdragon> Brianetta, but it has a better structure for sentences 12:12:08 <Brianetta> no 12:12:11 <Brianetta> it has a structure 12:12:20 <Brianetta> pyborg has no structure 12:12:23 <Brianetta> period 12:12:25 <Brianetta> it's pure 12:12:29 <Brianetta> no preconceptions 12:12:43 <Char> hmmm 12:13:09 <Char> is there a way to keep computer enemies from behaving completely and utterly stupid? 12:13:10 <Brianetta> it works just as well in foreign languages 12:13:24 <Brianetta> Char: Have them stop behaving at all? 12:13:43 <Brianetta> by enemies, do you mean competing companies? 12:14:07 <Char> yeah 12:14:09 <Char> i mean 12:14:28 <Brianetta> commonly accepted wisdom is to replace AI players with human ones 12:14:28 <Char> they build like three identical lines between a coal mine and a power plant which are 20 tiles away from each other 12:15:05 <Brianetta> The alternative is to wait patiently for the NOAI engine to be completed, and for some decent competitors to be written. 12:15:16 <Brianetta> Or, just play solo. 12:15:53 <Char> hmmm 12:17:36 <planetmaker> or get a binary from the NoAI branch :) 12:17:38 <Char> will the new AI ever be completed? ;) 12:18:06 <planetmaker> It's working already quite nice. And it's not _the_ - there are many around, good, better and less good ones :) 12:18:15 <Char> but 12:18:20 <Char> does it work for trains as well? 12:18:26 <planetmaker> yes 12:18:36 <Char> cause there is one AI around which just works for road vehicles 12:18:40 <Char> and where can i get it/ 12:18:41 <Char> ? 12:18:57 <planetmaker> look in the forums General OpenTTD - noai subforum. 12:19:09 <planetmaker> Get Yexo's Admiral AI. I guess it's one of the best and it does everything except ships. 12:20:01 <Char> uhmmmm 12:20:02 <Char> The NoAI framework provides an API to write your own AI. AI's can be written using squirrel. Currently, it's not possible to build rails/trains, but that will come at some point in the future. 12:20:05 <Char> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=65&t=37956 12:21:53 *** ecke [~ecke@213.195.202.130] has joined #openttd 12:23:18 <Brianetta> planetmaker: Some admiral. 12:23:59 <planetmaker> Char: that's an old posting. Search for admiral AI. 12:24:12 <planetmaker> Brianetta: how do you mean? 12:25:51 <Brianetta> planetmaker: Look up "admiral" in a dictionary. 12:26:29 <Char> ?? 12:26:31 <planetmaker> ... and? 12:26:36 <Char> well 12:26:40 <Char> i found what i need i guess 12:26:52 <Brianetta> "...and it does everything except ships." 12:27:01 <Celestar> "13:18 < planetmaker> Get Yexo's Admiral AI. I guess it's one of the best and it does everything except ships." <= trains too?! 12:27:12 <planetmaker> yes. 12:27:17 <Celestar> awesome 12:27:20 <planetmaker> indeed :) 12:27:21 <Celestar> I want to see it :P 12:27:30 <Celestar> but I've got to head to a meeting in a few 12:27:31 <planetmaker> look through the thread, it has images :) 12:27:32 <Brianetta> Perhaps you should look up irony, too, because an AI called "Admiral" that can do everything but ships is deeply ironic. 12:27:43 <Gekz> hha 12:27:49 <planetmaker> oh... :) 12:27:52 <Char> i just downloaded it 12:27:56 <Char> seems to be pretty nice 12:28:12 <planetmaker> k, missed that one :) 12:28:27 <planetmaker> but airforce also uses admirals, no? 12:30:09 <planetmaker> And I think its origin is in a plane-only AI. 12:30:36 <Rubidium> who noai's about naming things completely opposite 12:30:44 <Rubidium> s/who/whole/ 12:31:18 *** De_Ghosty [~s@76-10-162-17.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:31:18 <Celestar> I gotta go 12:31:20 <Celestar> cu later today 12:31:22 *** Celestar [~Jadzia_Da@129.187.69.65] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:32:59 <Char> hmmm 12:33:08 <Char> no, i guess airforce does not have admirals 12:33:42 <Rubidium> they're called (air) marshals in the airforce 12:35:08 <Char> how do i choose the AI to be used? 12:38:41 <planetmaker> Rubidium: the creator of AdmiralAI obviously chose a mis-leading name then :) . At least in German language we have admirals in the airforce, too - so I guess it might be the same in aviation in the Netherlands, too. 12:38:54 <keyweed_> nope 12:39:18 <keyweed_> http://www.allesopeenrij.nl/index.html?page=http://www.allesopeenrij.nl/lijsten/krijgsmacht/luchtmacht_rang.html 12:40:01 *** tokai [~tokai@p54B81819.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:40:36 <Brianetta> planetmaker: airforce uses sky marshal or general (depending whether it's commonwealth or US), never admiral 12:41:02 <Char> weird 12:41:08 <Char> i cannot get the AI to do anything 12:41:17 <Char> actually i cannot even get it to start a company 12:41:23 <Char> ah 12:41:24 <Char> now it works 12:41:42 *** tokai [~tokai@p54B80A60.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 12:41:45 *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai] by ChanServ 12:41:47 <keyweed_> it was waiting for just the right moment 12:41:49 <planetmaker> I also erred with the German ranks :) 12:43:38 *** [alt]buster [~Combuster@82-171-220-59.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #openttd 12:43:38 *** [com]buster [~Combuster@82-171-220-59.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:43:41 *** [alt]buster is now known as [com]buster 12:45:14 *** De_Ghosty [~s@76-10-162-17.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #openttd 12:45:55 *** fjb [~frank@p5485FC9C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 12:46:00 <fjb> Hello 12:47:44 <Char> wow 12:48:24 <Char> i wonder how a local authority of a city can think "very good" of a transport company if all it does is steering literally hundreds of coal trucks through the city centre. 12:49:14 <dih> by bribing 12:49:22 <dih> by planting a bunch of trees around the town 12:49:30 <dih> various possibilities 12:49:52 <Char> no 12:49:56 <Char> its a computer player 12:50:08 <Char> and no, the computer player did not place shitloads of trees 12:50:11 <Gekz> I wonder why a city cares about the transferring of goods from one place to another 12:50:16 *** lobster_MB [~michielbr@bib-theater34.hku.nl] has joined #openttd 12:50:29 <dih> Char: the ai cheats 12:50:34 <Char> ;) 12:50:36 <dih> it does 12:50:39 <dih> seriously 12:50:40 <Rubidium> dih: the noai AIs don't 12:50:56 <dih> how should i know which ai Char is talking about 12:51:05 <Char> and i wonder why the admiralAI i have here builds lots of train stations but never connects them 12:51:11 <Rubidium> dih: by reading the context? 12:51:12 <dih> if he's chatting up in this channel i assume it's the current ai 12:51:16 <dih> not the noai branch :-P 12:51:19 <dih> true 12:51:22 <dih> that would be a good point 12:51:58 <dih> still i thought that was the reason you guys had an extra channel :-P 12:52:28 <Rubidium> so there isn't any OTTD talk in #tycoon? 12:52:40 <dih> i dont know - i never visit that channel 12:52:45 <Brianetta> Rubidium: They tut and sigh when we try it 12:53:09 <Brianetta> #tycoon is an extension of the off-topic forum, as far as I can tell. 12:53:16 <dih> :-P 12:53:58 <Char> sorry for speaking in the wrong channel btw :P 12:54:36 <dih> Char: if you really were i think the devs would have mentioned it 12:55:27 *** tokai [~tokai@p54B80A60.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: icebears... take care of them!] 12:56:23 *** Mortal [~mortal@0x573a3da2.odnqu1.static.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #openttd 13:00:37 *** Gekz [~brendan@123-243-206-102.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:17:58 *** Sacro [~ben@150.237.221.217] has joined #openttd 13:20:43 *** solid_liq [~mike@75-164-105-236.tcsn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:23:34 *** Sacro [~ben@150.237.221.217] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:24:02 *** Sacro [~ben@150.237.221.217] has joined #openttd 13:24:09 <Belugas> hello evryone 13:24:44 <dih> hello Belugas 13:25:41 *** [alt]buster [~Combuster@82-171-220-59.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #openttd 13:26:48 <Belugas> hey dih :) 13:31:39 *** [com]buster [~Combuster@82-171-220-59.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:31:39 *** [alt]buster is now known as [com]buster 13:42:06 *** lobster_MB [~michielbr@bib-theater34.hku.nl] has quit [Quit: COCKBUSTER SLEEP MODE] 13:46:18 *** glx [glx@bny93-6-82-245-156-124.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #openttd 13:46:21 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 13:51:13 *** Fuco [~dota.keys@ip-105.imafexbb.sk] has joined #openttd 13:57:32 *** Doorslammer [Doorslamme@PIPP-p-144-134-197-2.prem.tmns.net.au] has quit [Quit: I'll get you next episode, Inspector Gadget! NEXT EPISODE!] 14:04:40 *** Sacro [~ben@150.237.221.217] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:07:31 *** [alt]buster [~Combuster@82-171-220-59.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #openttd 14:07:31 *** [com]buster [~Combuster@82-171-220-59.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:07:34 *** [alt]buster is now known as [com]buster 14:17:40 *** NukeBuster [~wouter@80.101.115.82] has joined #openttd 14:26:30 *** Sacro [~ben@150.237.221.217] has joined #openttd 14:32:11 *** Aylomen [~a@DSL01.83.171.179.50.ip-pool.NEFkom.net] has joined #openttd 14:48:03 *** welshdragon [~vista@87.102.21.185] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:53:55 *** fonso [~fonso@e178110058.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #openttd 14:55:30 *** mortal` [~mortal@0x573a3da2.odnqu1.static.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #openttd 14:58:31 *** nekx [~asd@0x3e42e6e6.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #openttd 15:01:24 *** Mortal [~mortal@0x573a3da2.odnqu1.static.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:06:54 *** Sacro|Laptop [~ben@150.237.221.217] has joined #openttd 15:06:54 *** Sacro [~ben@150.237.221.217] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:11:17 *** Sacro [~ben@150.237.221.217] has joined #openttd 15:11:17 *** Sacro|Laptop [~ben@150.237.221.217] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:20:15 *** Brianetta [~brian@client-82-26-69-27.bmly.adsl.virgin.net] has quit [Quit: TschÃŒÃ] 15:27:36 *** GoneWacko [~GoneWacko@dhcp-077-249-197-241.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:28:11 *** GoneWacko [~GoneWacko@dhcp-077-249-197-241.chello.nl] has joined #openttd 15:28:48 *** Dr_Jekyll [Dr_Jekyll@p57B0EEAE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 15:41:56 *** Celestar [~Jadzia_Da@p549725CE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 15:41:56 *** mode/#openttd [+o Celestar] by ChanServ 15:44:36 <Celestar> man .. nested screens are evil 15:44:58 <Belugas> birds nesting on your screens is even worse 15:46:47 <Celestar> .. 15:47:08 <Celestar> and I wish people on the supercomputer would FINALLY learn how to use the queueing system :S 15:47:25 <Celestar> and not put 96-CPU jobs into the max-8-CPUs-job queue 15:48:14 <petern> heh 15:48:52 <Celestar> because there are currently > 120 jobs in that queue marked as "ERROR" 15:49:02 <Celestar> some of them for a fortnight already. 15:49:09 <Celestar> apparently people really really need that data badly 15:49:34 <planetmaker> :D 15:50:00 <Celestar> note: of these 120 jobs, about 100 are from only 4 different people (accounts) 15:50:15 <planetmaker> There's two things which are infinite: human stupidity and the universe. I'm not sure about the latter. 15:50:31 <planetmaker> (Einstein) 15:50:34 <Celestar> I know :D 15:50:55 <planetmaker> I would have been surprised if you didn't :) 15:50:58 <Celestar> lol 15:51:00 * Celestar bows 15:51:13 <Celestar> heh. AdmiralAI looks really awesome 15:51:54 <planetmaker> people in your business know that quote generally :) 15:52:02 <planetmaker> yeah, looks awesome :) 15:52:56 <Celestar> I wish my advisor would understand a BIT about what I am doing :S 15:53:03 <Celestar> s/understand/care 15:53:06 <planetmaker> :S 15:53:51 <Celestar> he *just* discovered that he sent me on a conference next week for which we have NOTHING up to now 15:54:05 <Celestar> he dicoveres this about every other week for two months now 15:55:36 <Celestar> first item on every meeting: "Remind professor who you are and what you do" 15:55:41 *** Zorni [zorn@e177113077.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #openttd 15:57:08 <Celestar> so when do we integrate cargodest, IS and noAI into trunk? :P 15:57:24 <glx> NoAI depends on NAIL 15:57:37 *** tokai [~tokai@p54B80A60.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 15:57:38 *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai] by ChanServ 15:57:38 <Celestar> there was also some question about crossing bridges on the forum, what about them? 15:59:26 *** mikl_ [~mikl@cpe.ge-0-2-0-812.0x50c774be.boanqu1.customer.tele.dk] has quit [Quit: mikl_] 15:59:28 *** Zorn [zorn@d122082.adsl.hansenet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:59:36 *** mortal`` [~mortal@0x573a3da2.odnqu1.static.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #openttd 16:00:45 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590fc0e3.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #openttd 16:01:04 <Celestar> because they'd be fun :P 16:02:33 <Aali> crossing bridges? just give me diagonal bridges 16:03:01 <Celestar> diag brides are hell to code 16:03:26 <Belugas> yeah 16:03:41 <Belugas> in fact, they even may give us problem with the map 16:03:52 <Belugas> not to mention the blatant lack of gfx 16:03:57 <Celestar> not so crossing bridges 16:04:02 * Belugas nods 16:04:09 <Aali> thats up there with signaled bridges, eh 16:04:29 <Celestar> in fact, crossing bridges just work 16:04:32 <Belugas> that's another story... 16:04:35 <Celestar> (at least they did when last I checked) 16:04:56 *** Mortal [~mortal@0x573a3da2.odnqu1.static.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #openttd 16:05:03 <glx> they just look ugly 16:05:20 <Celestar> yeah 16:05:21 *** Eddi|zuHause3 [~johekr@p54B751EA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 16:05:24 <Celestar> that's why I have disabled them 16:05:40 <Belugas> nice boy 16:05:47 <Celestar> but if memory serves, that's the only reason :P 16:05:59 *** mortal` [~mortal@0x573a3da2.odnqu1.static.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:06:04 <Celestar> so IF we have nice grfs for crossing bridges, we could put them in 16:06:30 <Celestar> so where are our designers ? 16:06:45 <Rubidium> #ttdp.graphics ? 16:06:49 <Belugas> they are busy with opengfx :) 16:06:50 <Celestar> :P 16:06:59 <Celestar> Belugas: with the graphics or the license? 16:07:03 <Celestar> (= 16:07:15 <Belugas> dunno 16:07:21 <Belugas> totally dunno 16:07:22 <Rubidium> they appear to have eliminated all but one license 16:07:26 <Sacro> or just masturbating frantically over blender 16:07:30 <Celestar> lol 16:07:56 <Celestar> Rubidium: which one is that one? 16:07:57 * Rubidium imagines a will it blend: OpenTTD and OpenGFX 16:08:09 <Celestar> CA-SS-DA-ZR-SDF GTI Quattro 16V ? 16:08:17 <Sacro> Celestar: TDi? 16:08:19 <Rubidium> Celestar: GPL-2 16:08:35 <Celestar> Rubidium: isn't that what has been suggest like a decade ago? 16:08:38 <Celestar> Sacro: sorry, I forgot :P 16:10:48 *** Eddi|zuHause2 [~johekr@p54B77DFC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:11:09 *** mortal`` [~mortal@0x573a3da2.odnqu1.static.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:11:27 *** Swallow [~chatzilla@5355F5FD.cable.casema.nl] has joined #openttd 16:12:40 <Celestar> would it be possible to add some flag to a NewBridge that signalls whether sprites for crossings are present? 16:13:08 <Rubidium> Celestar: http://www.willitblend.com/videos.aspx?type=unsafe&video=novell <- for the admins 16:14:06 *** Eddi|zuHause3 is now known as Eddi|zuHause 16:16:27 <Celestar> Rubidium: LOL 16:16:33 <Celestar> where's the liquid coming from? 16:16:41 <Rubidium> the red bull ofcourse 16:16:45 <Celestar> oh 16:16:46 <Celestar> right :P 16:16:48 <Celestar> forgot :P 16:18:13 <glx> nice result 16:18:31 <Rubidium> you should watch the rake episode too 16:20:02 * Celestar watches his data 16:20:14 <Ammler> suse :-) 16:23:54 <Celestar> .. 16:23:59 <Celestar> the DVB-C receiver crashed again 16:24:04 * Celestar goes rebooting it 16:24:36 <Sacro> hmm, no -C in this city :( 16:24:53 <Celestar> sucks anyway 16:25:01 <Celestar> -S is better 16:26:20 *** fonso [~fonso@e178110058.adsl.alicedsl.de] has left #openttd [Kopete 0.12.7 : http://kopete.kde.org] 16:28:01 * Celestar forgets his data and goes watching SG-1 16:28:39 <Rubidium> that's like ancient or depending how you look at it: not ancient ;) 16:28:56 <Celestar> er ? 16:28:59 <Celestar> what is? 16:29:12 <Eddi|zuHause> "FÃŒÃe hoch! Flachwitz!" :p 16:29:21 <Celestar> hm 16:29:53 <Rubidium> Celestar: SG-1 is ancient (based on date-of-broadcast), although Atlantis has to do with ancients 16:30:06 <Celestar> heh 16:30:30 <Celestar> dunno what episode it is 16:31:35 *** TinoM [~Tino@i59F5F9AA.versanet.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 16:34:26 * Rubidium votes for: one I have already seen ;) 16:34:29 <Celestar> heh 16:34:46 <Celestar> Rubidium: the typical "Attack first, ask questions later"-scheme 16:35:45 <Rubidium> that's all what stargate's about 16:37:17 <Eddi|zuHause> i thought about cheap costumes and random references to various mythologies 16:38:05 <Rubidium> it's just a series of mythologies in a more modern coat 16:38:19 <Celestar> but I like it anyway 16:38:31 <Celestar> it's one of the better shows on german TV 16:42:03 *** TinoM [~Tino@i59F5F9AA.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 16:51:20 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@89.246.164.115] has joined #openttd 16:52:07 *** Fuco [~dota.keys@ip-105.imafexbb.sk] has quit [Quit: Quit] 16:53:35 *** nfc [nfc@dsl-hkibrasgw2-fe20de00-185.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:53:49 *** Sacro [~ben@150.237.221.217] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:54:07 *** Fuco [~dota.keys@ip-105.imafexbb.sk] has joined #openttd 16:54:27 *** nfc [nfc@dsl-hkibrasgw2-fe20de00-185.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #openttd 16:54:38 *** Frostregen [~sucks@dslb-084-058-178-201.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 16:58:43 *** Mark [~M4rk@5ED06875.cable.ziggo.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:02:03 *** dfox [~dfox@r5cv134.net.upc.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:02:14 *** dfox [~dfox@r5cv134.net.upc.cz] has joined #openttd 17:02:58 *** Char [~Ich@d83-176-55-29.cust.tele2.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:10:51 *** Frostregen [~sucks@dslb-084-058-178-201.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: und weg] 17:12:32 *** Sacro [~ben@150.237.221.217] has joined #openttd 17:13:32 <Celestar> bbl 17:13:33 *** Celestar [~Jadzia_Da@p549725CE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:13:54 *** [alt]buster [~Combuster@82-171-220-59.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #openttd 17:18:09 *** Frostregen [~sucks@dslb-084-058-178-201.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 17:18:33 *** [com]buster [~Combuster@82-171-220-59.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:18:33 *** [alt]buster is now known as [com]buster 17:19:08 *** Singaporekid [~notme@cm88.psi148.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:26:16 *** Frostregen_ [~sucks@dslb-084-058-100-168.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 17:28:11 *** Frostregen [~sucks@dslb-084-058-178-201.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:28:25 *** Frostregen_ is now known as Frostregen 17:41:20 *** Phoenix_the_II [rdeboom@home.deboom.biz] has joined #openttd 17:45:56 *** tneo [~tneo@members.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Quit: ZNC by prozac - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 17:46:39 <Sacro> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7693386.stm 17:48:09 <FauxFaux> Pwnt. 17:48:14 *** tneo [~tneo@vs241204.vserver.de] has joined #openttd 17:50:10 *** FR^2 [~frquadrat@oscar.frquadrat.de] has joined #openttd 17:53:26 *** ecke [~ecke@213.195.202.130] has quit [Quit: ecke] 17:54:39 *** M4rk [~M4rk@5ED06875.cable.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd 17:54:44 *** M4rk is now known as Mark 17:57:07 *** ecke [~ecke@213.195.202.130] has joined #openttd 17:57:53 *** Sacro [~ben@150.237.221.217] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:01:04 *** Char [~Ich@d83-180-230-106.cust.tele2.ch] has joined #openttd 18:02:37 *** Zahl_ [~Zahl@g226206078.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #openttd 18:08:19 *** elmex [~elmex@e180066029.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:10:04 *** Zahl [~Zahl@g228074040.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:10:04 *** Zahl_ is now known as Zahl 18:10:44 *** fjb [~frank@p5485FC9C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:11:56 *** fjb [~frank@p5485FC9C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 18:18:40 *** Dred_furst [~Dred_furs@resnet643.bournemouth.ac.uk] has joined #openttd 18:19:05 *** elmex [~elmex@e180078112.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #openttd 18:29:08 *** Yeggs-work is now known as Yeggstry 18:40:39 *** welshdragon [~vista@adsl-87-102-39-137.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd 18:43:53 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: translators * r14539 /trunk/src/lang/ (10 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed) 18:43:53 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2008-10-27 18:43:26 18:43:53 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: dutch - 5 fixed by habell (5) 18:43:53 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: french - 5 fixed by glx (5) 18:43:53 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: galician - 5 fixed by Condex (5) 18:43:55 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: ido - 31 fixed by Cecile (31) 18:43:55 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: indonesian - 50 fixed by dnaftali (50) 18:44:09 <planetmaker> quick question: where do I look, if the game asserts on changing a setting? (openttd.cpp:143) 18:44:28 <planetmaker> I kind of fail to find a place... :S 18:44:50 *** Burty [burty@92.18.180.70] has joined #openttd 18:44:57 <Burty> hey Everyone 18:45:19 <planetmaker> *advanced setting 18:45:31 <Rubidium> planetmaker: you could start by using gdb 18:45:43 <planetmaker> I feared that answer :D 18:46:04 <planetmaker> I guess time to really get to know gdb a bit better... 18:46:36 <petern> and a non-stripped build 18:46:59 <planetmaker> hm... what are the compile options for that? 18:47:18 <Rubidium> ./configure --help ? 18:47:23 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host156-173-dynamic.60-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd 18:47:27 *** lobster_MB [~michielbr@86.89.201.189] has joined #openttd 18:47:34 <Wolf01> hello 18:47:36 <planetmaker> ... --enable-debug :) 18:54:39 <welshdragon> you want to debug Wolf01? 18:54:57 <Wolf01> I might need it 18:55:21 *** [com]buster [~Combuster@82-171-220-59.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:55:27 *** Sacro [~ben@adsl-87-102-39-137.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd 18:55:46 *** stillunknown [~stillunkn@82-136-225-75.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:55:46 *** [com]buster [~Combuster@82-171-220-59.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #openttd 19:01:33 *** ben_goodger [~ben@host217-44-221-18.range217-44.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 19:04:44 *** Celestar [~Jadzia_Da@p549725CE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 19:04:47 *** mode/#openttd [+o Celestar] by ChanServ 19:05:15 <Celestar> \o 19:07:58 <dih> / 19:08:03 <dih> \/\ 19:08:04 *** Frostregen [~sucks@dslb-084-058-100-168.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: und weg] 19:08:06 <dih> ops 19:08:07 <dih> gnah 19:09:16 <Celestar> ? 19:09:20 * Celestar blinks 19:10:03 <ben_goodger> schwaff! 19:10:12 <Belugas> never mind him, he's our usual clown ^_^ 19:10:24 <ben_goodger> :) 19:10:31 *** Yexo [~Yexo@32-88-ftth.onsneteindhoven.nl] has joined #openttd 19:11:05 <Celestar> hey AI dev :) 19:11:46 <Belugas> who? Me? I ain't 19:12:24 <Celestar> no Yexo 19:13:09 *** welshdragon [~vista@adsl-87-102-39-137.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:13:22 <Yexo> hello Celestar 19:13:45 <Celestar> sda 3.00 0.50 87.00 253.00 58880.00 151019.50 29440.00 75509.75 617.35 6.01 19.11 2.03 69.00 19:13:49 <Celestar> sdb 0.00 0.00 1.50 7.50 12.00 49.50 6.00 24.75 6.83 0.14 15.78 5.56 5.00 19:13:52 <Celestar> sdc 0.00 0.00 107.50 78.50 89964.00 74188.50 44982.00 37094.25 882.54 2.14 11.53 2.67 49.60 19:13:55 <Celestar> how this is what I call I/O :) 19:14:12 <Yexo> what are all those numbers? 19:14:18 <FauxFaux> Large. 19:14:23 <ben_goodger> Celestar: you forgot the column titles 19:14:27 <Celestar> yeah 19:14:34 <Celestar> Device: rrqm/s wrqm/s r/s w/s rsec/s wsec/s rkB/s wkB/s avgrq-sz avgqu-sz await svctm %util 19:14:38 <Celestar> here they are (= 19:14:57 <ben_goodger> ah, yes, that's much more useful o.o 19:15:10 <Celestar> r = read, w = write 19:15:16 <Celestar> :P 19:15:28 <ben_goodger> well, yes 19:15:39 <ben_goodger> avgqu-sz is a bit more subtle 19:15:45 <ben_goodger> as is svctm 19:15:53 <Celestar> rrqm/s avgqu-sz The average queue length of the requests that were issued to the device. 19:16:06 <ben_goodger> ah 19:16:19 <Celestar> http://linux.die.net/man/1/iostat 19:16:20 <Celestar> here :) 19:17:04 *** Burty [burty@92.18.180.70] has quit [] 19:17:10 <ben_goodger> thank yo 19:17:21 <Celestar> Yexo: I'd like to test your AI soon. what do I need? 19:17:47 <Yexo> admiralai.tar and a noai build 19:17:55 <Yexo> binaries at openttd.org/download-noai 19:18:01 <Celestar> k 19:18:08 <Celestar> any newGRFs possible/recommended? 19:18:28 <Yexo> all should work 19:18:35 <Celestar> awesome 19:18:36 <Yexo> so just your favourite combination :) 19:18:47 <Celestar> :D 19:19:09 <Yexo> although the 2ccset may give some problems because the building cost are really high, I suggest to put parameter 0 to 1 or 2 (sandbox or easy mode) 19:19:10 <Rubidium> Celestar: and if it doesn't work you can flame him ;) 19:19:42 <Celestar> heh 19:19:43 <Celestar> ok 19:19:46 <Celestar> I shall 19:19:56 * Celestar hands out some asbestos suits :P 19:20:20 * ben_goodger is hospitalised due to asbestosis 19:21:06 * Celestar slaps ben_goodger "You are supposed to read the iostat man page, not to end up in hospital" 19:21:35 <ben_goodger> you gave me an asbestos suit, dammit 19:22:01 <Celestar> oh right 19:22:02 *** Dred_furst [~Dred_furs@resnet643.bournemouth.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:22:02 <Celestar> :P 19:22:39 <Belugas> not the same as an albatros that sues you 19:23:00 <Yexo> Celestar: What is the status of cargodest? How long before it can hit trunk? 19:23:28 <Celestar> Yexo: there's some problem with refits mainly, but I cannot continue development for the next 7 days. 19:23:33 * Rubidium likes the name of the town where they used to make asbestos products in the NL: "Goor" (in english: dirty/squalid) 19:23:57 <Celestar> Yexo: after that, it will hopefully go very fast. you want to code AdmiralAI for cargodest? ;) 19:24:09 <Yexo> I've already done a big part for that 19:24:10 <Rubidium> okay... seven days have past ;) 19:24:55 * Celestar takes Rubidium's starship away 19:25:14 * Rubidium just hit a solar flare ;) 19:26:31 *** Fuco [~dota.keys@ip-105.imafexbb.sk] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 19:27:25 <Aali> will AI's ever have support for IS? 19:27:34 * Celestar points at Yexo 19:27:39 <Celestar> I think they will 19:27:49 <Yexo> infrastructure sharing? 19:27:54 <Aali> yes 19:27:58 <Yexo> as soon as such a patch is in trunk I'll code support for it 19:30:51 *** Fuco [~dota.keys@ip-105.imafexbb.sk] has joined #openttd 19:33:15 <Aali> i really hope it does get into trunk 19:33:48 <Celestar> I'll try to see to it :) 19:33:53 <Aali> the only reason i'm not playing NoAI is that it would be a pain in the ass to merge it with my other patches 19:34:59 <Celestar> would it? why? 19:35:37 <Yexo> noai merges with cargodest with only 3 (very small) failed blocks 19:35:57 *** rortom [~rortom_@5aca977e.bb.sky.com] has joined #openttd 19:36:43 <Aali> i dont play cargodest 19:36:58 <Celestar> cargodest + IS is a killer combo 19:37:00 <Celestar> :) 19:38:14 <Yexo> Aali: NoAI changes only a few things in 'trunk code'. Most of the code is in the ai/ directory so doesn't create conflicts with other patches. I was trying to point that out by giving cargodest (not a small patch) as example 19:38:38 *** yorick [~yorick@s55924da0.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #openttd 19:38:42 <Aali> Yexo: hmm, i might just give it a try then 19:40:33 <planetmaker> [20:36] <Celestar> cargodest + IS is a killer combo <-- very much so. But the current patch is broken and buggy. 19:40:45 <planetmaker> :( And I'm too bloody stupid to fix it. 19:40:49 <Celestar> :( 19:40:59 <Celestar> planetmaker: I'll help at some point 19:41:03 <planetmaker> :) 19:41:20 <Aali> Yexo: but it wont be using IS automagicly, right? 19:41:25 <Yexo> the current patch is buggy? 19:41:26 <yorick> planetmaker: lazy* 19:41:38 <Yexo> Aali: no 19:41:49 <planetmaker> Yexo: yes. It got some problems in the latest versions. 19:41:58 <Yexo> I had the impression it worked pretty well, but I haven't tried it myself lately 19:42:01 <Aali> which is better than nothing but still not great 19:42:04 <planetmaker> And it's buggy. It asserts, when I enable per-company support :O 19:42:16 <planetmaker> Yeah. lately is the thing :) 19:42:37 <planetmaker> I've the definite feeling it's beyond my current c/c++ ability. 19:42:54 <Yexo> I might give it a go 19:42:56 <planetmaker> was ok, 1k revisions ago. 19:42:57 <Aali> planetmaker: i haven't had any problems with it, i never use per-company settings though 19:43:20 <planetmaker> And currently waypoints don't block competitors trains anymore, either. No idea why. 19:43:54 <Aali> wasn't that considered a bug and "fixed" by some guy? 19:43:58 <Yexo> Does (a proper implemented) IS have any chance of going into trunk? 19:44:40 <planetmaker> well - not that I know :) 19:45:06 <Celestar> Yexo: that depends what the team decides upon (= 19:45:07 <planetmaker> Some people may consider it a bug. I consider that a feature: you can reserve some tracks for your exclusive usage. 19:46:25 <yorick> it needs a separate thing, I think 19:46:27 <Celestar> Yexo: and on Rubidium's opinion, really 19:46:29 <Yexo> Celestar: of course, but fixing IS might be (probably is) a lot if work, so I'd like to hear some opinions about that before starting to work on something that'll never hit trunk anyway 19:47:02 <fjb> Hm, is blocking waypoints really a good idea? I'm often using waypoints on my networks. 19:47:16 <Celestar> I'm using them too 19:47:26 <Celestar> not often, but here and there 19:47:43 <Aali> and you can still keep a separate network not connected to anyone elses 19:47:52 <fjb> Waypoints would block half of my network... 19:47:53 <Aali> unless you're sharing depots, of course 19:48:26 <planetmaker> Yexo: quite probable not in the current implementation 19:49:39 <planetmaker> Celestar made a number of quite good comments on the current patch... Even I understand them :P 19:50:02 <planetmaker> I implemented some, but the big ones... alas. 19:50:16 <Celestar> :P 19:50:44 <planetmaker> [20:47] <Aali> and you can still keep a separate network not connected to anyone elses <-- that's not always an option :) 19:51:02 <planetmaker> I agree though, that abusing waypoints is hackish. 19:51:11 <Celestar> very 19:51:25 <planetmaker> But IMO the patch needs the possibility to block competitors using certain of your tracks 19:51:31 <Celestar> yes 19:51:53 <planetmaker> But I didn't find another easy solution; the current is a hack for wwottdgd/2 19:52:01 <Aali> yeah, of course, ideally you would want some kind of company signals 19:52:15 <planetmaker> yeah. Something. 19:52:18 <Aali> or company markers or whatever 19:52:39 <planetmaker> Another nice thing would allow access on a per-station basis than general 19:52:49 <Yexo> I think it should be the other way around: by default disallow and have some sort of waypoint that allows opponents train to enter your network 19:52:54 *** Purno [~Purno@5350931D.cable.casema.nl] has quit [Quit: Always remember you're unique, just like everyone else.] 19:53:00 <Celestar> hm 19:53:05 <Celestar> this needs further discussion 19:53:06 <planetmaker> Yexo: default is no sharing at all :) 19:53:17 <planetmaker> if you allow, you allow general access. 19:53:40 <Yexo> and I think you should be able to allow only on certain parts of the network 19:53:45 <Aali> Yexo: that would be hard to implement though, since you would have to keep track of where a shared segment starts/ends 19:54:06 <planetmaker> Yexo: that's why I implemented the waypoint hack: easily place one at the entry of the no-go-area and you're done 19:54:14 <Aali> opt-out is a lot easier to handle, code-wise 19:54:17 <Celestar> yes 19:54:17 <Celestar> much 19:54:18 <Yexo> Aali: it's not, you only have to keep track of who's train it is and who's track it is. 19:54:37 <planetmaker> yexo: code-wise it's much easier to define blocking tiles 19:54:46 <planetmaker> than make it a tile property 19:55:02 <Celestar> er go for it step-by-step. 19:55:07 <Yexo> sure, blocking tiles are easier, but certain allow-tile are not too hard either 19:55:16 *** Char [~Ich@d83-180-230-106.cust.tele2.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:55:19 <Celestar> the opt-out thingy can be added later on 19:55:19 <planetmaker> the idea of "company signals" is one which isn't bad IMO. 19:55:28 <planetmaker> full ack 19:55:46 <planetmaker> a first step would be just allow sharing, even without company settings IMO 19:56:02 <planetmaker> just a switch yes/no and setting global fees. 19:56:11 <planetmaker> 2nd ist customization 19:56:38 <planetmaker> 3rd is advanced stuff like local access control and per-company access 19:57:53 <Celestar> *nod* 19:58:08 <Celestar> a separate hg repo would be handy methinks 19:58:13 <rortom> hi all 19:58:17 * planetmaker has seperate hg repo 19:58:20 <Celestar> good (= 19:58:25 <rortom> has the nightly of yesterday a desync bug? 19:58:42 <rortom> cause its desyncing all the time :| 19:58:51 <planetmaker> rortom: changed any grf? 19:59:03 <rortom> i used the openttdcoop GRF 19:59:05 <Yexo> rortom: does it also desync after loading a savegame on the server? 19:59:06 <planetmaker> as compared to before? 19:59:10 <rortom> from one savegame 19:59:32 <planetmaker> rortom: that's not an answer :) Some of the grfs may desync under certain cirucumstances 19:59:34 <rortom> it ran quite fine for ~50 game years 20:00:06 <rortom> i thought the openttdcoop guys only use stable grfs? 20:00:11 <rortom> *sets 20:00:28 <planetmaker> well. Yes. But you never know :) 20:00:41 <planetmaker> And it's not always the fault of the grfs :P 20:00:44 <rortom> mh, true :\ 20:01:04 <planetmaker> so: do you use other grfs than before? And if so: which? 20:01:27 <rortom> i started the server yesterday, not used before 20:01:39 <rortom> i can give you a GRF list if you want 20:01:55 <planetmaker> sure :) URL? 20:02:06 *** Bjarni [~Bjarni@0x50a46ad5.virnxx14.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #openttd 20:02:06 *** mode/#openttd [+o Bjarni] by ChanServ 20:02:06 <planetmaker> does it desync with an older version? 20:02:13 <rortom> im about to test 20:03:05 <rortom> http://pastebin.com/m5e327ad1 20:05:17 *** TinoM [~Tino@i59F5F9AA.versanet.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 20:05:20 <rortom> its a shame that the protocol cannot detect why it desyncs :( 20:05:41 <Bjarni> how would you get it to detect why it desyncs? 20:05:55 <planetmaker> rortom: try to disable suburban houses and give it another try. 20:06:00 <planetmaker> just a random idea. 20:06:06 * Sacro is playing OpenTTD 20:06:10 <Bjarni> it makes a checksum of the stuff in the game and compares the checksum 20:06:48 <rortom> Bjarni: exatcly, thats the problem ;) 20:07:03 <rortom> planetmaker, thanks for the tip :D 20:08:47 <planetmaker> forget what I said. it's stations, not houses what you have :) 20:09:10 *** Eddi|zuHause2 [~johekr@p54B751EA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 20:10:18 <Bjarni> how would you fix this? 20:10:20 <Bjarni> I mean how would you make it detect what went wrong? 20:10:26 <Bjarni> I can imagine something but it would create way too much traffic 20:10:29 *** iwein [~iwein@ipgw-nl.telfort.nl] has joined #openttd 20:10:30 <Bjarni> like transmitting the whole savegame every tick 20:10:40 <Bjarni> rortom: do you fancy some coding? 20:10:42 <Bjarni> like making a feature that makes a savegame right away if a game desyncs 20:10:47 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B751EA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:10:55 <Yexo> planetmaker: Is the patch posted by Thief^ the latest is patch? 20:10:56 <SpComb> Bjarni: send absolute info, not deltas 20:11:03 <Bjarni> it should be done at the same tick on both server and client though so I don't know if it's possible to get the timing right 20:11:11 <SpComb> but myes, it's a bit silly with a TCP-based network protocol 20:11:17 <SpComb> desyncs are bugs 20:11:20 <planetmaker> Yexo: yes. I've locally a bit different, but not really different. 20:11:25 <Bjarni> but it would be nice to have the savegames to compare when it goes wrong :) 20:11:32 <planetmaker> It's a bit better wrt coding style :) 20:11:49 <rortom> mhm 20:11:58 <rortom> i have no idea what would be the best solution 20:12:02 <planetmaker> I can pm you, if you like. 20:12:09 <Bjarni> 9 lines during 1 sec o_O 20:12:10 <rortom> but it would be great to have to identify the source 20:12:24 <rortom> sure 20:12:51 <Bjarni> somehow I think it was because the internet lagged and stored all the packages in the router or something :/ 20:13:05 <planetmaker> actually. My local copy, Yexo, now applies to current trunk 20:13:13 <planetmaker> the old one doesn't 20:14:36 <Yexo> planetmaker: can you upload that somewhere? 20:14:41 <Aali> planetmaker: are you the one maintaining the IS patch? 20:15:05 <planetmaker> Aali: well. Trying to is the better phrase. Yes, I'll upload in the IS thread. 20:15:44 <Aali> planetmaker: i see 20:15:57 <Aali> and no-one is really working on it? 20:16:35 <Yexo> Aali: I'm going to do some work on it now, see if I can improve it a bit 20:16:52 <Aali> awesome 20:17:03 <Aali> as long as it doesn't die out 20:17:08 <Aali> that'd be a shame 20:17:24 *** Dr_Jekyll [Dr_Jekyll@p57B0EEAE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: http://www.lagerwiki.de - das Wiki rund um's Thema Lager und Logistik] 20:17:28 <Bjarni> rortom: if you desync all the time, then hack the source to make an uncompressed savegame every tick on both server and client 20:17:38 <planetmaker> Yexo: posted http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=739613#p739613 20:18:04 <Bjarni> then you can compare the savegames and figure out the difference 20:18:05 <planetmaker> Nice that you'll have a look, Yexo :) 20:18:38 *** XeryusTC [~XeryusTC@members.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Quit: Solong, and thanks for all the fish] 20:18:42 <Yexo> I won't promise any results :p 20:19:20 *** nekx [~asd@0x3e42e6e6.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:19:26 <petern> Bjarni, and then try to figure out why the difference... 20:19:54 *** XeryusTC [~XeryusTC@vs241204.vserver.de] has joined #openttd 20:19:57 <planetmaker> yexo: so did I - it worked for a few months :) 20:19:59 <Bjarni> yeah... this could take a while 20:20:09 <Bjarni> but you have the answer 20:20:23 <planetmaker> you've more experience than me though. So... :) 20:20:24 <Bjarni> no guesswork... just hardcore savegame decoding 20:20:33 <ln> is it recommended to use MS Comic Chat on this channel? 20:20:55 <Bjarni> nothing named "MS*" is recommended :P 20:21:11 *** Celestar [~Jadzia_Da@p549725CE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:23:05 <Bjarni> actually savegame decoding is not as tricky as you might think 20:23:27 <rortom> mh, phone :\ 20:23:29 <yorick> it is not at all as tricking as you might think 20:23:34 <yorick> tricky* 20:23:36 *** fonso [~fonso@e178110058.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #openttd 20:24:09 <Bjarni> but using uncompressed savegames helps a lot :) 20:24:20 <yorick> you could just uncompress them... 20:24:35 <Bjarni> you could start by using something like diff to figure out what difference you have 20:24:52 *** vvv444 [~vvv444@89-138-176-73.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #openttd 20:25:01 <Bjarni> <yorick> you could just uncompress them... <-- yeah, but compressing a savegame every tick would demand a fast CPU 20:25:29 <yorick> saving an uncompressed savegame every tick would demand some hd speed 20:25:41 <Bjarni> yeah 20:25:50 <planetmaker> he :P 20:26:11 <Bjarni> don't do it on a remote drive 20:26:29 <yorick> @calc 30*74 20:26:29 <DorpsGek> yorick: 2220 20:26:30 <Bjarni> and you shouldn't use too big maps either 20:26:32 <yorick> ooh 20:26:39 <yorick> that requires some hd space 20:26:44 <yorick> every second 20:27:32 <planetmaker> 74 ticks per second? 20:27:34 <Wolf01> 'night 20:27:39 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host156-173-dynamic.60-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] 20:27:43 <yorick> yes 20:27:45 <Bjarni> don't use fast forward :P 20:27:50 <planetmaker> :P 20:28:03 <Yexo> isn't it 30 ticks per second and 74 ticks per ingame day? 20:28:09 <yorick> hm 20:28:17 <yorick> you have a point 20:28:26 *** iwein [~iwein@ipgw-nl.telfort.nl] has quit [Quit: iwein] 20:28:27 <Bjarni> as I said: it's demanding, but once you got the savegames it will be a whole lot easier to figure out why it desyncs 20:28:41 <planetmaker> 90MB/s is a lot for current PCs, too. I doubt that most will cope. 20:29:12 <Bjarni> I did this even on the old computer 20:29:21 <Bjarni> the trick is to limit the size of the map 20:29:22 <Yexo> if you know when it desyncs, you don't have to save the savegames for a long time, and of course a lot can be cached in ram 20:29:28 <Bjarni> and not having 65k vehicles 20:29:32 <Bjarni> *64k 20:29:50 <planetmaker> you only need to save one savegame: when the sync check gives you a true. 20:29:57 <Bjarni> yeah 20:30:15 <planetmaker> but then you better have both: server and client :) 20:30:23 <Yexo> that's only enough if you enable syncs checks every tick 20:30:24 <planetmaker> but maybe via a new docommand :) 20:30:29 <Bjarni> only having the client would make little sense 20:30:34 <yorick> Yexo: you want to store 30 savegames each 30 mb in ram every second? 20:30:53 <planetmaker> no need to store uncompressed. 20:31:00 <Yexo> yorick: why 30mb each? 20:31:08 <Bjarni> no time to compress that amount of data 20:31:09 <yorick> you mean yu can compress 30 savegames each second? 20:31:14 <Bjarni> 30 mb sounds like a lot 20:31:19 <Yexo> depending on map size 20:31:27 <Yexo> but still 30mb sounds very big 20:31:28 <Bjarni> are you sure you aren't using some huge map/game? 20:31:32 <planetmaker> still. 90% compression is hardly feasable with any data. 20:31:33 <yorick> 30mb is 2048x2048 20:31:45 <planetmaker> which is oversized 20:31:48 <Yexo> just don't do desync debugging on that big maps :) 20:32:10 <Bjarni> how many times do I have to say that you should use a "small" map? 20:32:17 <Bjarni> I did it on a 256x256 map 20:32:31 <Bjarni> and I didn't have any problems saving it on an old and slow HD 20:32:36 <yorick> you need your reproduceable desync to fit on a 256 map 20:33:05 <planetmaker> which should be no problem 20:33:09 <Bjarni> then you better get started making such a game 20:33:38 <Bjarni> if it's a bug that happens most of the time it should be fairly easy to trigger it 20:33:44 <planetmaker> ^^^ 20:33:57 <Bjarni> 3 eyes? 20:34:05 <Bjarni> are you a mutant? 20:34:55 <Belugas> that's his nose, up in the air! 20:35:11 <Bjarni> mutant nose :/ 20:35:16 <yorick> he has a pointy nose 20:35:17 <rortom> so 20:35:23 <rortom> what about blackbox testing 20:35:27 <Bjarni> which means.... 20:35:31 <Bjarni> A WITCH! 20:35:35 <Bjarni> burn him! 20:35:44 <rortom> start client and server with certain GRF settings 20:35:58 <Prof_Frink> Bjarni: A pointy nose doesn't make him a witch. 20:35:59 <rortom> when it desyncs, diff the savegames 20:36:11 <Prof_Frink> Fetch the duck! 20:36:26 *** fjb [~frank@p5485FC9C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:36:32 <yorick> Prof_Frink: witchducks! 20:36:34 <yorick> burn them 20:37:08 *** fjb [~frank@p5485FC9C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 20:40:22 *** yorick [~yorick@s55924da0.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has left #openttd [Poef!] 20:40:44 <Bjarni> maybe it would be a good idea to write code to enable one savegame every tick instead of writing code for it every time it's needed 20:41:16 <Bjarni> we should just disable it with ifdef unless we actually need it 20:41:47 <SpComb> tick........... tick............ tick............ 20:42:15 <Bjarni> I always knew that SpComb would be a ticking bomb 20:42:25 * SpComb defuses 20:42:37 <Bjarni> however I thought mentally unstable bombs were actually silent until they blow 20:43:05 <planetmaker> hehe. Got a 3rd additional artificial eye. 20:43:23 <planetmaker> and no need to burn me. The devil likes fire :P 20:43:30 <planetmaker> Mephisto ... hehehehe :) 20:44:11 <Bjarni> so you are a mutant 20:44:16 <planetmaker> sure :) 20:44:18 <Bjarni> NO MUTANTS ALLOWED 20:44:28 *** Sacro [~ben@adsl-87-102-39-137.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:44:31 <planetmaker> We are borg. Resistance is futile 20:44:46 <Bjarni> http://www.nma-fallout.com/ <-- so you can never visit this server :P 20:45:06 <Bjarni> something is wrong 20:45:13 <planetmaker> lool. Obviously I could, though :) 20:45:24 <Bjarni> looks like my DNS died :( 20:45:37 *** planetmaker was kicked from #openttd by Belugas [You did not resist much!] 20:45:37 *** planetmaker [~pm@vs241204.vserver.de] has joined #openttd 20:45:41 <planetmaker> looking at it, my desire to lurk there is quite low, though 20:45:50 <Bjarni> no webpages works for me right now 20:45:52 <planetmaker> :D 20:46:27 <Bjarni> I haven't looked at that page for ages... I just remembered the name and thought it would fit this context quite good 20:46:58 <planetmaker> :) 20:47:33 <planetmaker> I never knew that ^^should denote the number of eyes... irc is strange. 20:48:05 <Bjarni> it's not IRC only 20:48:05 <planetmaker> I should get some RL foooood :) 20:48:09 <Bjarni> it's a smiley 20:48:10 *** FR^2 [~frquadrat@oscar.frquadrat.de] has quit [Quit: Connection reset by caffein depletion...] 20:48:29 <planetmaker> I'm a smiley analphabet, too :) 20:48:29 <glx> <@Bjarni> maybe it would be a good idea to write code to enable one savegame every tick instead of writing code for it every time it's needed <-- like configure --enable-desync-debug ? 20:48:41 <Bjarni> that would be one way to start :) 20:49:02 <Bjarni> planetmaker: @.@ 20:50:33 <planetmaker> I'm amazed :P 20:50:54 <glx> <rortom> when it desyncs, diff the savegames <-- the desync may be caused by something that happened 3 months before the actual desync 20:51:57 <planetmaker> but I think my glasses are smaller :D 20:53:01 *** Sacro [~ben@adsl-87-102-39-137.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd 20:53:18 <Bjarni> something is really wrong here 20:53:29 <Bjarni> no web server replies to me, nomatter what I try 20:54:15 <planetmaker> ping 134.169.28.42 - does it work? 20:54:44 <Bjarni> no 20:54:45 *** iwein [~iwein@s559100ee.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #openttd 20:54:49 <ben_goodger> Bjarni: when my router does that, it typically means it has exhausted its TCP table and requires restart 20:54:58 *** rortom [~rortom_@5aca977e.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:54:59 <planetmaker> oh... 20:55:30 <Bjarni> then why am I still on IRC? 20:55:53 <planetmaker> Those announced dead live longer :D 20:55:57 <glx> because the connection is already established 20:56:07 <ben_goodger> quite 20:56:29 <ben_goodger> usually caused by overuse of torrents, in my experience 20:58:51 <Bjarni> quite interesting 20:58:51 *** [com]buster [~Combuster@82-171-220-59.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:58:58 *** [com]buster [~Combuster@82-171-220-59.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #openttd 20:59:06 <Bjarni> because right now all my internet traffic is xchat and firefox 20:59:17 <Bjarni> that is... firefox isn't communicating right now 21:00:07 <planetmaker> Yeah, but FF has no permanent connections as opposed to irc. 21:00:18 <Bjarni> anyway if I disappear in a moment, then you will know why :P 21:01:02 *** Bjarni [~Bjarni@0x50a46ad5.virnxx14.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:05:51 *** mode/#openttd [+b bjarni!*@*] by petern 21:05:52 <petern> hehe 21:06:27 <glx> lol 21:06:27 <Sacro> hahaha XD 21:06:57 *** KritiK [~Maxim@93-80-102-11.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd 21:07:27 <ln> smaller than three 21:08:56 <Yexo> planetmaker: I've just read through the current is patch and I think I can better start over than continue from the existing patch. There are just too many problems with it. 21:09:24 <Rubidium> subsidiaries take 5? 21:09:40 <Yexo> I guess so :) 21:10:16 <Yexo> Rubidium: Is there a chance a proper written patch for that will hit trunk someday? 21:10:38 <planetmaker> Yexo: that's what I've been saying with "buggy" :) 21:10:51 <Yexo> "buggy" is an understatement here :) 21:10:52 <Rubidium> Yexo: there always is a chance 21:11:06 <Yexo> Rubidium: ok, rephase: what is your opinion about the idea? 21:11:41 *** mode/#openttd [-b bjarni!*@*] by petern 21:11:42 <Rubidium> "can't be bothered"/"personally not going to spend time in" 21:12:39 *** Nite_Owl [~Nite_Owl@c-75-74-51-51.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #openttd 21:13:03 <Nite_Owl> Hello all 21:15:39 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590fc0e3.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:21:32 *** iwein [~iwein@s559100ee.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [Quit: blame the network] 21:26:03 *** fonso [~fonso@e178110058.adsl.alicedsl.de] has left #openttd [Kopete 0.12.7 : http://kopete.kde.org] 21:31:33 *** Lakie [~Lakie@80.247.163.109] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:33:22 *** Wezz6400 [~Wezz6400@145-118-111-36.fttx.bbned.nl] has quit [Quit: reboot, brb] 21:35:01 *** Wezz6400 [~Wezz6400@145-118-111-36.fttx.bbned.nl] has joined #openttd 21:35:06 *** FloSoft [~sifldoer@g229118046.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: computer has gone to sleep] 21:38:00 *** Nite_Owl [~Nite_Owl@c-75-74-51-51.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Read You Soon] 21:38:25 *** Nite_Owl [~Nite_Owl@c-75-74-51-51.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #openttd 21:41:24 *** Lakie [~Lakie@80.247.163.109] has joined #openttd 21:42:14 *** stillunknown [~stillunkn@82-136-225-75.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #openttd 21:42:24 *** Yexo [~Yexo@32-88-ftth.onsneteindhoven.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:43:20 *** Yexo [~Yexo@88.159.88.32] has joined #openttd 21:44:05 *** Swallow [~chatzilla@5355F5FD.cable.casema.nl] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092417]] 21:52:31 *** mikl [~mikl@0x57372ee2.mrbnqu1.static.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #openttd 21:52:45 *** Bjarni [~Bjarni@0x50a41672.virnxx14.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #openttd 21:52:48 *** mode/#openttd [+o Bjarni] by ChanServ 21:52:55 <Bjarni> FINALLY! 21:53:13 * Bjarni wonders how long it lasts 21:53:21 <Bjarni> anybody here? 21:53:47 <SmatZ> hello Bjarni 21:53:50 <SmatZ> you are too slow 21:53:55 <SmatZ> everyone's gone now 21:54:24 <Bjarni> 13 193.88.59.1 (193.88.59.1) 15.560 ms !X 15.109 ms !X * <-- this is what I get when I try to traceroute my DNS server D: 21:54:37 <SmatZ> :) 21:55:00 <Bjarni> my requests circles around inside my ISP (not locally) and eventually they time out 21:55:09 <Rubidium> nice, ain't it? 21:55:22 <Bjarni> so something is really wrong and since it's not locally I can't do anything about it 21:55:24 * dih hugs SmatZ 21:55:39 <dih> hugging a dev a day keeps the doctor away 21:55:49 <Bjarni> at least it looks like it's not something weird that I have to fix personally 21:55:57 <Bjarni> and I'm pretty sure the ISP noticed by now 21:56:02 <Rubidium> if only the doctor would come ;) 21:56:08 <dih> :-P 21:56:17 <SmatZ> :-) 21:56:34 <Rubidium> there's vast evidence that they have given others much later versions of OTTD; would cut development time quite a bit 21:56:46 <Bjarni> 9 vlan30.d1.li.tdk.net (193.88.59.1) 14.914 ms 15.393 ms 16.022 ms 21:56:46 <Bjarni> 10 * * * 21:56:46 <Bjarni> 11 * * * 21:56:46 <Bjarni> 12 * * * 21:56:46 <Bjarni> 13 * * * 21:56:49 <Rubidium> although... it'd be like killing your parents 21:56:49 <Bjarni> this ain't good 21:56:53 <Bjarni> still the DNS server 21:57:49 *** Aylomen [~a@DSL01.83.171.179.50.ip-pool.NEFkom.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:58:02 <Bjarni> what does !X mean in traceroute? 21:58:14 *** orudge [~orudge@owenrudge.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:58:24 *** Born_Acorn [~bornacorn@80.247.163.107] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:58:42 <Nite_Owl> Bjarni: that seems to be a common complaint today - you are not alone 21:58:59 <Bjarni> the internet broke? 21:59:20 <Bjarni> I can't browse the net to figure out if it's a common problem 21:59:44 <Bjarni> worst problem is that I can't access uni and figure out what I should prepare for tomorrow :( 22:00:24 <Bjarni> anybody who have a working DNS server IP that I can borrow? 22:01:24 *** Lakie [~Lakie@80.247.163.109] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:01:25 *** Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause 22:01:30 <Bjarni> anybody reading this? :s 22:01:51 <FauxFaux> Nope. 22:01:57 <FauxFaux> Bjarni: 4.2.2.1, no, really. 22:02:11 <FauxFaux> Yes, it's low tier and public. 22:02:11 <Bjarni> I asked if people were reading what I wrote, not if people cared :P 22:02:34 <Bjarni> actually I guess you use some DNS to access the internet 22:02:50 <FauxFaux> tcp-over-dns ftw. 22:02:59 <Bjarni> err 22:03:06 <Bjarni> dns-over-tcp 22:03:16 <Bjarni> but I guess you are using some sort of DNS anyway :) 22:03:38 <Aali> no there's actually an app that lets you use IP over DNS 22:04:14 <FauxFaux> There's actually a standard for dns over tcp, it makes kind of sense. 22:04:36 <Aali> its very handy for circumventing those pay-for-access services, because they usually allow DNS lookups 22:05:06 <Aali> not that i would ever do that 22:05:13 <Aali> seeing as its illegal and whatnot 22:06:10 <Bjarni> what kind of interesting pay-for-access services are there? 22:06:18 <Bjarni> no, porn isn't interesting :P 22:07:08 <Aali> alot of trains here in sweden have internet access, but you have to pay for it unless you're in first class 22:07:19 <Bjarni> ahh 22:07:23 <Aali> lets just say their system isn't entirely bulletproof 22:07:36 <Bjarni> :) 22:07:46 <Prof_Frink> Aali: It used to be that The Cloud APs allowed access to anything on port 8443. 22:08:03 <FauxFaux> Yeah, some allow arbitary traffic on port 53 udp. 22:08:32 <Aali> these only allow access to their own internal DNS server 22:09:39 *** eMJay [~michael@60-241-9-164.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #openttd 22:09:44 <Aali> actually, the uni i studied at last year suffered from the same problem 22:10:14 <Aali> of course, you couldn't access the internal network that way, which i guess is all they really care about 22:13:14 *** Mortal [~mortal@0x573a3da2.odnqu1.static.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Quit: [FATAL] Client error: Memory leak - More RAM needed. More! More! More!] 22:13:54 * eMJay loves Mortal's quit message 22:16:02 *** elmex [~elmex@e180078112.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:16:12 *** Andel [~andel@owenrudge.net] has joined #openttd 22:16:55 *** Born_Acorn [~bornacorn@80.247.163.107] has joined #openttd 22:17:47 *** Lakie [~Lakie@80.247.163.109] has joined #openttd 22:18:15 *** orudge [~orudge@owenrudge.net] has joined #openttd 22:19:45 <Eddi|zuHause> http://nopaste.php-q.net/65037 <-- muahaha... [german] 22:20:30 <Bjarni> that's cruel to do right now 22:20:39 <Bjarni> considering I stated that I can't use DNS 22:20:43 <Bjarni> however now it's working again 22:20:48 <Bjarni> it just started working again :D 22:21:21 <Bjarni> something went wrong for the ISP and it took out 38 towns 22:21:25 <Bjarni> *37 22:21:44 <Bjarni> no 22:21:46 <Bjarni> that's not it 22:21:54 <Eddi|zuHause> so just add another DNS server? 22:21:57 <ln> perhaps the windmill powering the DNS server has stopped. 22:22:04 <Bjarni> :P 22:22:15 <ben_goodger> s/windmill/hamsters 22:22:24 <Prof_Frink> s|$|/| 22:22:28 <Bjarni> <Eddi|zuHause> so just add another DNS server? <-- I asked several times for a DNS IP, yet nobody would give me one 22:22:35 <Bjarni> and all the ones I have failed 22:22:39 <ben_goodger> "thine is the hamster that powers the servers, and you'll pay for ever RM" 22:23:02 <Eddi|zuHause> mine is 217.237.149.205, but i fear it's only possible to use from t-online 22:23:29 <Eddi|zuHause> you could try 141.48.3.3, that used to be my university's DNS 22:24:26 <Bjarni> but now it's working again 22:24:27 <ln> someone tell opendns's ip to bjarni. 22:24:33 <SpComb> 4.2.2.1 22:24:49 <SpComb> and/or 4.2.2.2 22:24:50 <Bjarni> but yes, it would be nice to know :) 22:26:46 * Bjarni just wrote down the opendns IPs 22:27:03 <Bjarni> now I just need to store it somewhere where I can find it the next time something breaks 22:27:15 <Eddi|zuHause> it's easy to remember... that was the code for my mother's old car radio 22:27:43 <Eddi|zuHause> Bjarni: in /etc/resolv.conf ;) 22:32:38 *** NukeBuster [~wouter@80.101.115.82] has left #openttd [] 22:33:10 <Bjarni> I know how to add it 22:33:16 <Bjarni> however I wonder if it's a good idea 22:33:27 <Bjarni> to do on a daily basis 22:33:42 <Bjarni> I mean I read something about a security problem with opendns 22:33:56 <Bjarni> something about phishing that they didn't block 22:34:01 <Bjarni> or something like that 22:34:50 <glx> Bjarni just wrote down the opendns IPs <-- something.222.222 and something.220.220 IIRC 22:35:07 <glx> but I forgot the something part 22:35:38 <glx> just put them at the bottom of the list 22:35:46 <ln> there are only 254² possibilities, Bjarni can try them out quickly. 22:36:23 <Eddi|zuHause> less 22:36:43 <ben_goodger> :D 22:36:53 <Eddi|zuHause> 10 and 192 cannot be in the first place 22:37:08 <ln> not entirely true 22:37:21 <Eddi|zuHause> well, they can, but it wouldn't make any sense :p 22:37:54 *** welshdragon [~vista@87.102.21.185] has joined #openttd 22:38:08 <ln> i've been using adsl connection where the nameservers were 10.something. 22:38:27 *** NukeBuster [~NukeBuste@80.101.115.82] has joined #openttd 22:39:11 <ln> and actually still are. 22:39:23 <glx> they are in the modem? 22:39:33 *** Char [~Ich@d83-180-230-106.cust.tele2.ch] has joined #openttd 22:39:47 <ln> nope, they are at the ISP. 22:40:02 <ln> 10.16.10.16 and 10.16.11.16 22:40:38 <Eddi|zuHause> but those are internal to the ISP then 22:41:12 <ln> indeed 22:41:54 <Eddi|zuHause> we were talking about OpenDNS 22:42:09 <ben_goodger> opendns is bloody awful 22:42:18 <Eddi|zuHause> which kinda implys that these would be globally reachable IPs 22:43:45 <eMJay> Eddi|zuHause: why do you say? 22:44:07 <ln> now what kind of an conversation would this be if the scope of discussion was not changed transparently 22:44:59 <Eddi|zuHause> one that would lead to peace and unity amongst all people 22:46:16 *** Yeggstry is now known as Yeggzzz 22:46:49 <Eddi|zuHause> eMJay: i have no idea what you actually asked there. 22:47:16 <eMJay> why would they be globally reachable IPs? 22:48:08 <Eddi|zuHause> it wouldn't make much sense to call them "open" otherwise 22:48:14 * TrueBrain waves hello 22:49:07 <eMJay> The isp's dns with 10.x.x.x addresses? 22:49:25 <Eddi|zuHause> it's like "hey, i created a totally free and fast internet service, but you can only reach it from my class C private network 22:49:51 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: that is how I offer free webhosting 22:50:43 <TrueBrain> todat AMS-IX passes 512 Gbps, and .. oh yeah, there was a blackout in NIKHEF 22:50:44 <TrueBrain> lol 22:51:39 <Eddi|zuHause> one link down and the other one increases throughput? what a strange coincidence 22:51:58 <TrueBrain> NIKHEF == AMS-IX 22:52:00 <TrueBrain> so no 22:52:31 <TrueBrain> it is just funny the day something reaches an other 'limit', it also is the day something big drops :p 22:53:01 <Eddi|zuHause> then you totally gave too little context to get the joke 22:53:19 <TrueBrain> the context is a newspaper ;) 22:53:21 <TrueBrain> but fair enough 22:53:34 <TrueBrain> I always assume people know the infastructure of AMS-IX :p 22:53:36 <TrueBrain> hehe 22:54:39 *** lobstar [~michielbi@86.89.201.189] has joined #openttd 22:54:40 *** lobstar_MB [~michielbr@86.89.201.189] has joined #openttd 22:55:00 <TrueBrain> so, anything good (OpenTTD) related? 22:55:26 <glx> yes I fixed an old noai bug yesterday :) 22:55:34 <TrueBrain> so I read 22:55:37 <TrueBrain> you missynced ;) 22:55:45 <glx> as always ;) 22:56:01 <TrueBrain> those stupid chunks .. hard to do correct 22:56:05 <TrueBrain> so I don't blame you :p 22:56:08 <TrueBrain> (hehehehhee :p) 22:56:23 <TrueBrain> I wonder how you ever found it .. but okay :p 22:56:44 <Eddi|zuHause> like that kernel update about anonymous proxies... "we lost this feature 5 years ago, but better late than never" or something... 22:57:04 <glx> expected when the version goes from 64 to 69 in one sync 22:57:59 <glx> easy I added debug to print current offset after each SlObject in noai and trunk 22:58:02 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe someone should design a more branch friendly savegame versioning system? 22:58:42 <glx> was not directly related to version, but to how noai fakes loading of old ai 22:58:55 <Rubidium> maybe someone should design a more development friendly time assignment for our devs 22:58:57 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: feel free 22:59:15 <planetmaker> [23:19] <Eddi|zuHause> http://nopaste.php-q.net/65037 <-- muahaha... [german] <-- actually I find that anything but funny :( It's an erorion of the foundations... 22:59:37 *** lobster [~michielbi@86.89.201.189] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:59:38 <Eddi|zuHause> a what?!? 22:59:39 *** lobster_MB [~michielbr@86.89.201.189] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:00:04 <Bjarni> Eddi|zuHause: btw now that we talked so much about DNS I completely forgot about your link 23:00:21 <planetmaker> sorry. erosion. 23:00:22 <Bjarni> looks like elderly people can't vote on modern election days 23:00:50 <Eddi|zuHause> mind you, it's in brandenburg, so you probably need to teach these people to use a voting cabin anyway, regardless of paper or computer... 23:01:00 <Sacro> my "replace train" winow is empty 23:01:15 <Sacro> D: 23:01:16 <Sacro> help 23:01:22 <planetmaker> It's 19 years, so they have learnt now. :) 23:01:43 <planetmaker> Mind that, I wouldn't bother to vote using a voting machine either. 23:01:47 <planetmaker> No point then. 23:02:51 <Eddi|zuHause> not even the bundestag could agree on voting machines in the reichstag building, even though they basically rebuilt that from scratch 23:02:57 <Sacro> I think I have a bug in autoreplace 23:03:00 <Sacro> @seen Bjarni 23:03:00 <DorpsGek> Sacro: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 2 minutes and 37 seconds ago: <Bjarni> looks like elderly people can't vote on modern election days 23:03:16 <eMJay> is there a how-to on the wiki for doing graphics? 23:03:20 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't see the point in voting computers 23:03:21 <Sacro> eMJay: yes 23:03:33 <eMJay> Sacro: i tried search, but no joy :S 23:03:47 <glx> eMJay: wiki.ttdpatch.net 23:03:53 <Eddi|zuHause> nobody can properly check for any cheating, because of proprietary components all over the place 23:04:10 <planetmaker> exactly... 23:04:25 <Eddi|zuHause> voting machines must be 100% open source 23:04:31 <planetmaker> even if, it would require sound technical knowledge. 23:04:47 <Sacro> technical sound knowledge 23:04:49 <DaleStan> "Voting should be done on paper" 23:04:59 <planetmaker> A pen and paper ballot can be supervised by the old lady next door. 23:05:00 <Eddi|zuHause> every person eligible for voting must be able to check the system 23:05:23 <eMJay> glx and Sacro, ah wrong wiki :P 23:05:32 <glx> and to trust the system 23:05:51 <DaleStan> eMJay: No, that would be the correct wiki. 23:05:59 <planetmaker> very much so. I know which system I wouldn' trust :) 23:06:15 <Eddi|zuHause> all of them... 23:06:25 <planetmaker> all electronic ones. 23:06:56 <Eddi|zuHause> i would not necessarily trust the paper ones either 23:07:10 <planetmaker> you could verify easily that they work ok. 23:07:22 <eMJay> DaleStan: I meant, i was looking in the wrong wiki 23:07:23 <planetmaker> Just be there before it starts and go through the counting procedure. 23:07:27 <glx> at least you can count paper ones 23:07:34 <eMJay> DaleStan: I was looking in the wiki.openttd.org 23:08:49 <planetmaker> err... well... and stay till after the election and take part in the counting procedure. 23:09:22 <planetmaker> a piece of paper won't play chess with you :P 23:10:03 <planetmaker> has no active electromagnetic emission 23:10:27 <planetmaker> and doesn't fail upon power cut. 23:10:56 <planetmaker> And now I vote for my bed :) 23:11:27 <TrueBrain> your pencil can break! 23:11:40 *** lobstar_MB is now known as lobster_MB 23:11:51 <planetmaker> which gives me two for the price of one! 23:12:06 <TrueBrain> depends on the original size :) 23:12:13 <planetmaker> :) 23:12:34 <glx> here the pencil is only needed to sign the register (and they provide it) 23:12:40 <TrueBrain> maybe someone put a paper under your paper, being able to see your vote 23:12:42 <planetmaker> It's a case where carrying a pocket knife comes in handy :) 23:13:08 <planetmaker> TrueBrain: easy to check :) 23:13:11 <TrueBrain> (why do people car eif others can read their vote? Is it that important that others don't find out what your vote?) 23:13:19 <planetmaker> yes. 23:13:20 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: depends, I can give you a few situations, you won't be able to tell :) 23:13:24 <ben_goodger> TrueBrain: conceivable, yes 23:13:45 <planetmaker> it makes it impossible to buy votes. 23:13:54 <ben_goodger> I can think of situations where I wouldn't want people to know I'd voted for a particular person 23:14:02 <ben_goodger> such as if I voted for mccain 23:14:15 <ben_goodger> I'd instantly feel so dirty that I'd crumble into dust if anyone found out 23:14:18 <TrueBrain> ben_goodger: yeah, you really should make sure nobody finds out about that :) 23:14:33 <ben_goodger> meh 23:14:35 <TrueBrain> but if you have an opinion which you refuse to tell publicly, I suggest not to vote at all :) 23:14:43 <ben_goodger> good idea 23:14:44 <planetmaker> no. why? 23:15:10 <ben_goodger> well, when there's an election in the UK, I will vote --- not that it will matter, the lib dems will win my constituency and very few other constituencies, without my help 23:15:25 <TrueBrain> still, voting feels good :) 23:15:32 <ben_goodger> yes 23:15:35 <planetmaker> yep :) 23:15:38 <TrueBrain> at least you can say you tried :) 23:15:44 <ben_goodger> true 23:15:49 <TrueBrain> and, when they do something stupid: I didn't vote for those people! 23:15:49 <TrueBrain> hehe 23:16:04 <planetmaker> hehe :) 23:16:34 <glx> many people didn't vote for our president (even some who voted for him) 23:16:47 <TrueBrain> then again, that might be a reason to keep your vote private .. I always annoying my friends with it, when they complain about a given person .. then I just say: but YOU voted for him 23:17:23 <DaleStan> <TrueBrain> but if you have an opinion which you refuse to tell publicly, <-- "refuse to tell" isn't the issue. The issue is "my boss says I will vote for so-and-so if I value my job." 23:17:54 <TrueBrain> DaleStan: fair enough 23:18:08 <Nite_Owl> Need to Feed - Later All 23:18:10 <TrueBrain> but I doubt your boss is trying to figure out what you voted by some advanced sniffers ;) 23:18:16 *** Nite_Owl [~Nite_Owl@c-75-74-51-51.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Read You Soon] 23:18:21 <planetmaker> exactly that: buying a vote :) vote for me or die :P 23:18:42 <TrueBrain> last week I read that people can even monitor your (physical) keyboard hits ... :s 23:19:09 <planetmaker> nothing new. It uses elecricity. So it emits radiation. 23:19:13 <glx> hacking the webcam? 23:19:26 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: still, proof-of-concept was created 23:19:28 <Rubidium> and each key makes a slightly different sound when pressed 23:19:28 <Bjarni> <Sacro> I think I have a bug in autoreplace <--- I really like when people say that they found a bug and then they shut up :P 23:19:35 <TrueBrain> that it is possible, one thing .. that people do it :p 23:19:40 <planetmaker> even that proof-of-concept is at least a decade old 23:19:42 <TrueBrain> Rubidium / glx: no, by radiation 23:19:55 <Char> test 23:20:01 <glx> fail 23:20:04 <Char> :P 23:20:08 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: well, it was kind of new in several ways .. as they were pretty far away, and the keyboard was both protected and via a wire .. 23:20:22 <glx> hmm I should have use DorpsGek to say that :) 23:20:32 <TrueBrain> glx: yews 23:20:34 <TrueBrain> :) 23:21:06 <planetmaker> TrueBrain: I'm pretty sure I read a couple of years ago that exactly that was done from the house on the other street side. Tracking the keyboard operations and monitor display using directional antennae 23:21:33 <TrueBrain> monitor display? Now that is hard (and kind of unbelievable :p) 23:21:42 <planetmaker> It was CRTs back then :) 23:21:43 <glx> my brother can see mouse wheel on the TV 23:21:44 <TrueBrain> reading a 50Hz changing signal, on a raster of 1000x1000 ... 23:21:58 <planetmaker> yes, but you can do that via lock-in. 23:22:14 <planetmaker> you got the line frequency. It's quite easy. Like TV signals. 23:22:30 <TrueBrain> still, reading that signal from a distance 23:22:33 <TrueBrain> and still reconstruct the image 23:23:05 <planetmaker> I did it in the advanced physics course - with a piece of wire tapping the satellite tv signal. 23:23:10 <planetmaker> a crt has the same signal 23:23:42 <planetmaker> you just need good amplification and and lock-in on the new line signal 23:23:48 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: there is a difference, and a big one for that matter 23:24:00 <planetmaker> not too mcuh 23:24:02 <planetmaker> *much 23:24:05 <glx> planetmaker: you had access to the wire 23:24:08 <TrueBrain> the amplification part I don't see happening for CRT signal .. 23:24:14 <planetmaker> glx: the wire was the antennae. 23:24:37 <planetmaker> the amplification has to be on your side - not crt 23:25:22 <planetmaker> it's an alternating ray of electrons. If it switches monitor side, it's a very clear signal. 23:25:43 <planetmaker> doesn't work anymore in the time of TFTs :) 23:26:19 <planetmaker> it's afterall guided by an AC magnetic field. 23:26:41 <glx> <planetmaker> doesn't work anymore in the time of TFTs :) <-- light guns don't work well either now 23:26:43 <planetmaker> well... no magnetic 23:26:52 <planetmaker> electric 23:26:59 <TrueBrain> http://www.dailymotion.com/video/k7amb5qtOGW2C6Odmq 23:29:39 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: I really have no problems believing that getting keyboard activity is easy .. but CRT screens .. I really need to see that with my own eyes :) 23:29:49 <TrueBrain> I can't see a way an antenna can receive 1000x1000 raster 23:30:05 <TrueBrain> or it should be able to read at the speed of the electron-canon .. 23:30:34 <planetmaker> TrueBrain: you know each line termination and each frame termination 23:30:44 *** Vikthor [~Vikthor@snat3.arachne.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:30:51 <Aali> hmm, what was the name of that project? 23:31:01 <TrueBrain> Aali: CERN 23:31:07 <planetmaker> the hardest part is to get the actuall brightness which is the intensity of the beam. 23:31:10 <Aali> some guys were making CRT screens transmit AM radio 23:31:21 <TrueBrain> (random question, random answer ;)) 23:31:22 <planetmaker> which also emits quite a bit of radiation 23:31:45 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: I would love to see such thing in action :) 23:31:52 <TrueBrain> I really won't believe it until I see it :) 23:32:22 <Aali> ah, tempest 23:32:34 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1EE54.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:32:59 <Aali> search for tempest and you'll find all sorts of crazy stuff people have done with CRT monitors 23:33:12 <TrueBrain> well, all I will do now is searching for my bed 23:33:15 <planetmaker> http://bss.sfsu.edu/fischer/ir%20360/Readings/tempest.htm 23:33:16 <TrueBrain> I wish you all a very good night :) 23:33:23 <planetmaker> night TB 23:33:41 <planetmaker> that link's for you, though :) 23:33:46 <TrueBrain> monitoring a CPU .. now that is fun :p 23:36:51 <Sacro> Bjarni: I have nothing in mylist of trains 23:36:55 <Sacro> but some stuff in wagons 23:36:56 <planetmaker> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TEMPEST <--- there are NATO standards regarding that... :P 23:37:25 <SmatZ> planetmaker: tl;dr but yeah, I was scared after wating the 1984 movie ... and comparing it with today's reality :) 23:37:58 <planetmaker> SmatZ: a frightening comparison, I think :S 23:39:01 <SmatZ> I wonder what will be the reality in 2043 23:39:01 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: nice arcticle; but clearly it hugely depends on thef act a cable is attached :) 23:39:28 <planetmaker> TrueBrain: to what? 23:39:51 <TrueBrain> to the CRT 23:39:55 <TrueBrain> acting like an antenna 23:39:55 <planetmaker> If you use a wireless keyboard you surely transmit the data directly. That's even easier then. 23:40:05 <planetmaker> or crt. Show me one without. 23:40:20 <TrueBrain> it is not about that; it is about how the signals are received :) 23:40:32 <TrueBrain> as I said, I saw no way to receive a 1000x1000 raster 23:40:41 *** [com]buster [~Combuster@82-171-220-59.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:40:41 <TrueBrain> but signals from a single cable, okay, I can see that working :) 23:40:43 <planetmaker> which also doesn#t use wireless transmission. Of course, the cable may act as antenna :) 23:40:54 <TrueBrain> which makes it wireless ;) 23:40:55 <TrueBrain> hehe 23:40:59 <planetmaker> :) 23:41:07 *** [com]buster [~Combuster@82-171-220-59.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #openttd 23:41:16 <TrueBrain> anyway, nice article, and you ar eright, reading CRTs should be possible in that case :) 23:41:20 <TrueBrain> Now for real: good night :) 23:41:34 <planetmaker> indeed! For me, too. Good night everyone. 23:41:38 <Aali> TrueBrain: i've seen tempest in action, sure, the "victim" was in text mode, but you could read that shit from a block away 23:41:43 <TrueBrain> (bah, you tempt me to hook up an antenna receiver to my computer :( 23:41:55 <planetmaker> :D 23:42:04 <TrueBrain> glad my latest computer doesn't have a COM port :) 23:42:11 <planetmaker> watch the p0rn of your neighbor :P 23:42:14 <TrueBrain> night :) 23:42:51 *** ln-- [~ln--@dyn-xdsl-83-150-113-243.nebulazone.fi] has joined #openttd 23:42:51 <ln--> # Appears as SCOTTY 23:42:57 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@89.246.160.182] has joined #openttd 23:43:05 <ln> apologies for that, but it's unavoidable 23:44:41 <planetmaker> http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/techreports/UCAM-CL-TR-577.pdf <--- scary. They tell you your graphics card without ever looking at your computer :O 23:48:31 <planetmaker> bah. Even the reflection of your monitor on the wall is readable... 23:48:45 * planetmaker goes to sleep - probably dreaming of James Bond & co.. 23:49:28 <ln> usually females dream of James Bond 23:49:35 <Aali> i'm actually watching the new james bond movie with my dad next weekend 23:49:38 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@89.246.164.115] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:49:43 *** eMJay [~michael@60-241-9-164.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:49:54 <planetmaker> I'm the evil counterpart, ln 23:49:55 <Aali> its kind-of the last thing we ever do together 23:50:11 <planetmaker> o_O 23:50:32 <planetmaker> that doesn't sound too well, Aali ... 23:50:57 <Aali> dont worry about it 23:51:07 *** treve [~treve@83.101.38.197] has joined #openttd 23:51:19 <Eddi|zuHause> <TrueBrain> (why do people car eif others can read their vote? Is it that important that others don't find out what your vote?) <- 20 years ago, if you even made a step towards the voting cabin, you'd get "visits" at your home later, trying to convince you to change your vote (from an assumed "no" to a public "yes"). if you dared to publicly vote "no", more serious things could happen. 23:51:21 <treve> hi ally 23:51:28 <treve> any dutch guys? 23:51:53 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not particularly fond of going back to that version of "voting" 23:51:55 <Aali> planetmaker: we agree to disagree about everything :P 23:52:04 <Aali> but thats fine 23:52:12 <Aali> i'm fine, he's fine, we're fine 23:52:18 <planetmaker> :D 23:52:19 <Eddi|zuHause> treve: i have not seen a dutch person ever in my life 23:52:37 <treve> oke 23:53:01 <Bjarni> I have seen a Dutch person 23:53:08 <Bjarni> but he wasn't online 23:53:12 <planetmaker> sounded more dramatic, Aali . That version doesn't sound too different from what I know :) 23:53:17 <treve> i am looking for some1 that can explain how autopilot etc works, or how i can run a scipt on a server, but i am total noob in irc 23:53:23 <Bjarni> in fact I'm not entirely sure if he had an internet connection at all 23:53:31 <treve> and google aint helping me for couple off days 23:53:43 <planetmaker> it's about 3 weeks ago, I saw a Dutch person. 23:53:48 <Aali> planetmaker: yeah, i'm drunk, so just disregard any- and everything i say 23:54:35 <ln> http://users.utu.fi/lanurm/kuvat/ottd-comic.png 23:54:36 <Bjarni> Aali: we always do that 23:54:40 <planetmaker> treve: you should ask dih or Brianetta about it - at more reasonable times 23:54:46 <Aali> Bjarni: great 23:55:21 <treve> wtf 23:55:28 <treve> nice job 23:55:36 <planetmaker> loool. Nice one! 23:55:38 <treve> and the guy fits me 23:55:42 <vvv444> He should ask babyottd :) 23:55:57 <Bjarni> he isn't here right now 23:56:04 <ln> and someone said Microsoft doesn't do innovations. :) 23:56:11 <vvv444> @seen babyottd 23:56:13 <DorpsGek> vvv444: babyottd was last seen in #openttd 1 week, 0 days, 3 hours, 4 minutes, and 42 seconds ago: <babyottd> zzz 23:56:24 <vvv444> Probably still sleeping :) 23:56:27 <Eddi|zuHause> ln: that's an almost accurate depiction of myself :p 23:57:02 <Bjarni> ln: your cartoon is poor.... I'm drawn as a woman o_O 23:57:22 <Sacro> ln: that's awesome 23:58:02 <treve> you should make youre own irc version ; 23:58:04 <Eddi|zuHause> the mask guy almost looks like one of the cannibals from monkey island ;) 23:58:13 <treve> i want it always like that 23:58:21 <ln> i can also revela that DorpsGek looks exactly like Eddi|zuHause. 23:58:24 <Eddi|zuHause> i mean, the only civilised persons on monkey island 23:58:25 <ln> *reveal 23:58:32 <treve> messenger program in cartoon style 23:58:41 <Eddi|zuHause> ln: i have already noticed that 23:58:45 <treve> you could even make money with it 23:58:54 *** ln-- [~ln--@dyn-xdsl-83-150-113-243.nebulazone.fi] has left #openttd [] 23:59:02 <Bjarni> I can see one problem with this software 23:59:06 <ln> oh crap, automatic updates reboot. 23:59:23 <Bjarni> and it can be shortened down to one word 23:59:25 <Bjarni> .exe 23:59:44 *** Wezz6400 [~Wezz6400@145-118-111-36.fttx.bbned.nl] has quit [Quit: Caught sigterm, terminating...]