Log for #openttd on 27th October 2008:
Times are UTC Toggle Colours
00:00:22  <Aali> if you want them to enter every depot, just remove the other track so they dont have a choice
00:00:44  <Eddi|zuHause2> if you have service orders, they will be skipped if service is not needed, and the next order is started. while the train is not at a service order, it will never service
00:01:21  <Eddi|zuHause2> if you want the trains to go to depots on the way, you need to remove all service in depot orders
00:01:30  <Aali> oh wait, you just said you didn't want that
00:02:34  <Eddi|zuHause2> or add waypoints before the depot track, so you add orders like: 1. go to waypoint right in front of depot, 2. service at depot, 3. go to station
00:03:23  <Eddi|zuHause2> then, at the waypoint, it is checked for serviceing, not on leaving the previous station, which might be a long time
00:04:43  <Eddi|zuHause2> get what i mean?
00:05:36  <Char> yes
00:05:43  <Char> so i need waypoints for what i want
00:05:45  <Char> not nice
00:05:47  <Char> but well
00:05:47  <Aali> well, if he wants to service every 110 days, it would just be a simple matter of removing the service orders, no?
00:05:54  <Char> no its not
00:06:02  <Aali> assuming there's always an accessible depot
00:06:03  <Char> if i have the oders as non-stop
00:06:08  <Aali> doesn't matter
00:06:14  <Char> than the train seems to not even stop for servicing
00:06:39  <Char> non-stop seems to override servicing
00:06:41  <Aali> non-stop determines if trains stop at stations other than their current destination
00:06:49  <Char> well
00:06:57  <Char> i will try....
00:06:58  <Aali> it has nothing to do with servicing
00:07:05  <Char> it seems to have... you sure?
00:07:17  <glx> <Char> i have train depots every 80 tiles or so <-- the gap between depots is too big
00:07:46  <glx> when a train searches for a depot it look at 16 tiles at most
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00:09:30  <Char> hmmm
00:09:38  <Char> strange
00:09:39  <Char> now it works
00:09:44  <Char> removed the non-stop stuff
00:09:48  <Char> and it seems to work
00:10:00  <Aali> :/
00:10:43  <Aali> which version of ottd are you running?
00:11:16  <Aali> i always use non-stop orders and my trains obey the service interval
00:11:51  <Eddi|zuHause2> yeah, non-stop should have absolutely no influence on servicing
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00:19:15  <Char> but it seems to have
00:19:21  <Char> did any of you ever try?
00:20:50  <Char> wow
00:20:57  <Char> i think i never ever got so rich so fast
00:21:23  <Char> but maybe it just looks like because of the currency (swiss francs)
00:22:23  <Belugas> "I Love You, I'm going to Blow Up your School"
00:22:29  <Belugas> MARVELOUS!!!
00:22:36  <Belugas> fucking great album,
00:22:42  <Belugas> a m a z i n g!
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00:27:29  <SmatZ> :-)
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00:27:52  <Sacro> UKRS looks borked in trunk
00:29:19  <Sacro> it seems a fair few trains are missing
00:29:27  <Sacro> and the class 33 is dual headed :o
00:29:30  <Char> belugas: what band is that?!?
00:30:16  <Char> hmmm. breakdowns are considerably slowing down my mainline :/
00:32:20  <Sacro> argh
00:32:27  <Sacro> UKRS is borked in stable too D:
00:32:51  <Char> ?
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00:33:08  <glx> Sacro: newgrf conflict maybe
00:33:21  <Sacro> glx: hmm
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00:33:26  <Sacro> perhaps my grf order is wrong
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00:35:32  <Char> hey guys
00:35:49  <Char> any tips on how to handle a crowded mainline when breakdowns are active?
00:35:59  <Aali> 1. don't
00:36:14  <glx> double the tracks and use cross over
00:36:18  <Aali> 2. get the improved breakdowns patch
00:36:35  <Char> improved breakdowns?
00:36:48  <Aali> seriously, i've never seen a good, working overtaking system
00:36:53  <Char> glx, that means i need PBS right?
00:37:10  <glx> Aali: 2 is good only if you have multiple engines
00:37:21  <Char> which i dont
00:37:21  <Aali> Char: its a patch that makes breakdowns more realistic and way less frequent
00:37:24  <Char> ;)
00:37:29  <Aali> no it isn't
00:38:34  <Aali> it makes a HUGE difference to single-engine trains aswell
00:38:55  <Char> well
00:39:12  <Char> if it just reduces breakdowns i could as well play with reduced breakdowns ;)
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00:39:25  <Aali> it does more than that
00:39:31  <Char> hmmm
00:39:34  <Char> what else does it do?
00:39:35  <Aali> trains can break down in a number of ways
00:39:50  <Aali> instead of just stopping with black smoke
00:40:22  <Eddi|zuHause2> yeah, it can also temporarily reduce power or speed
00:40:26  <Aali> thats still in there, called a mechanical failure, then there's emergency stop, power reduction and max speed reduction
00:41:35  <Char> hmmm
00:41:37  <Aali> so, use an engine thats faster than your trains will ever go (if you're playing with wagon speed limits) and with some extra hp and the game will actually be playable with breakdowns turned on
00:41:51  <Char> well
00:42:02  <Char> the game is playable with normal breakdowns turned on as well
00:42:11  <Char> just the lines can handle way less
00:42:23  <Aali> indeed
00:42:40  <Char> there is a limit to how much you can actually get through a single-lane mainline
00:43:07  <Char> and for a reasonable double-lane mainline which i am about to build i guess i will need path based signals
00:43:12  <Char> or pre-signals
00:43:18  <Char> so that trains will actually overtake
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00:44:05  <Char> if one is broken down
00:44:24  <Aali> that doesn't work if it breaks down at the switch though
00:45:17  <Aali> and you usually end up with trains trying to overtake each other in a criss-cross pattern
00:47:28  <Char> that might be true
00:47:29  <Char> ;)
00:48:01  <Aali> i'm not saying you shouldn't try though, thats just some of the things you want to think about while building it :P
00:48:34  <Char> hmmm
00:48:36  <Char> well
00:48:43  <Char> i will need to start a new game for that though
00:48:54  <Char> cause this is my first mainline ever, so....
00:48:59  <Char> and its only single-lane
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00:50:25  <Char> road vehicles are much more intelligent ;)
00:50:48  <Aali> road vehicles are harder to control
00:51:12  <Aali> and they are not very good at avoiding deadlocks
00:53:51  <Char> hmmm
00:54:02  <Char> i actually dont like road vehicles
00:54:06  <Char> just use them as feeders
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01:00:21  <Eddi|zuHause2> i use trams very often
01:01:42  <Aali> trams are much cooler than RVs :)
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01:11:38  <Char> great
01:11:44  <Char> i have to rebuild my mainline :/
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01:14:51  <bleepy> yay?
01:15:01  <Char> just a question. is there any estimates around how much cargo a mainline should be able to handle?
01:15:06  <Char> i.e. in tons / month
01:15:49  <Aali> that depends on a number of factors :P
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01:16:53  <Char> yeah i know
01:16:55  <Char> like train speed
01:17:02  <Char> and train length
01:17:10  <Char> and whether breakdowns are on or off :P
01:17:38  <Char> cause my (single-lane) mainline is not able to handle more than ~1500 tons of stuff a month
01:17:47  <Char> maybe 2000
01:19:51  <ben_goodger> hmm
01:20:01  <ben_goodger> network design efficiency is likely to be a limiting factor
01:20:12  <Aali> Char: how many trains? and how long?
01:20:14  <ben_goodger> try using path-based signals if they're supported by your build
01:20:55  <Char> well
01:20:58  <Char> i guess they are
01:21:04  <Char> since it is the latest nightly build ;)
01:21:17  <Char> i will have to dig into this path-based signalling
01:21:20  <Char> but maybe not tonight
01:21:53  <Aali> soo, how many trains do you have?
01:24:23  <Char> like, in total?
01:24:28  <Aali> yeah
01:24:33  <Char> 43
01:24:34  <Eddi|zuHause2> longer trains tend to increase line capacity, but decrease junction capacity
01:24:50  <Char> train length 12
01:25:02  <Eddi|zuHause2> 12 half-tiles?
01:25:06  <Char> yeah
01:25:07  <Aali> when you have a 100, you'll see why breakdowns are so bad ;)
01:25:12  <Aali> so, TL6 then
01:25:21  <Char> ah okay
01:25:27  <Char> thats how you calculate
01:26:01  <Eddi|zuHause2> i try to design my networks around 10 tiles
01:26:01  <Char> things start to get pretty messed up
01:26:25  <Eddi|zuHause2> feeder trains can be shorter
01:26:41  <Aali> tl10? thats just painful
01:27:24  <Eddi|zuHause2> but i do also play with reduced cargo amounts
01:27:27  <Aali> i use that for secondary goods that never go on the mainline
01:29:14  <Char> hmmm
01:29:17  <Char> i guess
01:29:33  <Char> for starters i will try to design a working network without breakdowns
01:29:41  <Char> which is probably already not quite easy
01:29:50  <Char> but the breakdowns completely break this
01:30:16  <Aali> but then my mainline is LLL_RRR or more, which already makes for some rather large junctions
01:30:24  <Char> i got ~10 breakdowns a year per train
01:31:23  <Char> and i just realized that one of my stations is designed pretty poorly
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01:43:24  <ben_goodger> I've several lines that are five squares longer than the size of the train, including two two-square stations
01:43:34  <ben_goodger> they tend to be very quick ^^
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03:53:15  <solid_liq> hi
03:53:28  * solid_liq needs a little help
03:55:26  <solid_liq> I get a number of ?'s (question marks) instead of graphics and letters in various places (the most annoying being in place of railroad signals).  When I start the game, it says the font I'm using is missing some of the characters needed for the language, and to see the readme file for how to fix it.  The readme file and the website both don't say anything about how to fix this, tho I did find unset font options in the openttd.cfg file.  I'm
03:56:37  <solid_liq> Oh, and for some reason, the signals will appear after a while, but only new ones...  maybe this is the electronic vs. mechanical ones I just read something about...
04:11:11  <ccfreak2k> If new signals appear after 1975, then you're probably just "missing" the old-style semaphores.
04:23:35  <petern> missing openttdw.grf?
04:23:48  <petern> or wrong version of
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04:32:22  <solid_liq> I don't think I am
04:33:18  <solid_liq> petern: yeah, I am missing it...  where do I get that?
04:35:29  <solid_liq> ccfreak2k: it's more than just missing signals, there are a bunch of missing icons...  missing signals is the worst tho because I can't see which way they'r facing
04:35:33  <dihedral> with your copy of openttd usually
04:35:57  <solid_liq> dihedral: hmmm, what dir does it install to?
04:36:11  <dihedral> start from the very beginning
04:36:17  <dihedral> what did you download and from where
04:36:39  <dihedral> and how can you say it's missing if you dont know where to find it?
04:37:16  <solid_liq> hmm, dpkg shows the file, but it's not in the directory dpkg says it should be in
04:37:34  <solid_liq> dihedral: I'm on debian sid, so I just did: aptitude install openttd
04:38:02  <solid_liq> then copied the other .grf files over from the transport tycoon installer
04:38:13  <dihedral> locate openttd ?
04:38:18  <dihedral> after a updatedb
04:38:29  <dihedral> or usually games whould be installed in /usr/games ?
04:38:35  <dihedral> perhaps look in /usr/share/games ?
04:38:40  <dihedral> or /usr/share/openttd
04:38:45  <solid_liq> I see the dir just fine
04:38:54  <dihedral> often enough there is also /usr/share/docs/<appname>
04:38:55  <solid_liq> I mean the openttdw.grf file isn't there
04:39:02  <dihedral> which dir
04:39:17  <dihedral> i have mentioned about 4
04:39:18  <solid_liq> /usr/share/games/openttd/data/
04:39:21  <dihedral> ah
04:39:31  <dihedral> run updatedb
04:39:34  <dihedral> as root
04:40:13  <solid_liq> I don't have locate/slocate/updatedb installed it looks like...
04:40:15  <solid_liq> just a sec
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04:42:12  <dihedral> yay - welcome back self
04:42:12  <solid_liq> okay, it'll take a few minutes to build the database, I have about 400GB of files to index
04:42:26  <dihedral> lol
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04:45:37  <dih> much better this way :-)
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04:58:15  <solid_liq> dih: okay, locate didn't find it
04:58:28  <petern> so it's in dpkg -L but not actually there?
04:58:55  <dih> petern, dpkg -L should not even list the files, only the packages
05:00:06  <dih> anyway - i am off - time to get ready to head for work
05:00:48  <solid_liq> yeah
05:00:50  <solid_liq> petern: yeah
05:01:17  <solid_liq> dih: dpkg -L has always listed the files in a pkg for me...   with  dpkg -L openttd   anyway
05:02:27  <solid_liq> dih: you must be thinking of lowercase l
05:06:55  <solid_liq> okay, cool, I'll restart it now and see if it's fixed :)
05:08:11  <solid_liq> sweet!  It looks a lot better now!  I didn't have any animated game going in the background before when I started openttd :)
05:08:20  <solid_liq> and the font is much better
05:08:30  <solid_liq> thanks a lot to everyone who helped :D
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08:42:45  <Celestar> morning
08:43:33  <planetmaker> good morning Celestar
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11:20:39  * Celestar rofls
11:21:51  <Celestar>
11:21:55  <Celestar> so cool
11:22:57  <dih> tood morning Celestar
11:23:41  <Celestar> :)
11:23:57  <dih> ah
11:23:58  <dih> good
11:24:00  <dih> :P
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11:30:08  <welshdragon> hmm
11:30:39  * welshdragon has a bot similar to babyottd, but is now afraid to use it
11:31:09  <dih> lol
11:31:21  <dih> you can in #welshdragonsbot
11:31:30  <Brianetta> PyBorg is being worked on by my LUG
11:31:36  <welshdragon> dih, it's in simsig
11:31:39  <Brianetta> well, specifically, by one or two in the LUG
11:31:43  <welshdragon> (#simsig)
11:32:05  <welshdragon> Brianetta, is that the program you used for babyottd?
11:32:09  <Brianetta> yes
11:32:11  <welshdragon> aah
11:32:25  * welshdragon is uisng
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11:37:10  <welshdragon> - my bot is as good as any
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12:05:34  <Brianetta> deebot isn't as pure as pyborg
12:07:19  * Celestar sneezes
12:10:02  <welshdragon> Brianetta, but it has a better structure for sentences
12:12:08  <Brianetta> no
12:12:11  <Brianetta> it has a structure
12:12:20  <Brianetta> pyborg has no structure
12:12:23  <Brianetta> period
12:12:25  <Brianetta> it's pure
12:12:29  <Brianetta> no preconceptions
12:12:43  <Char> hmmm
12:13:09  <Char> is there a way to keep computer enemies from behaving completely and utterly stupid?
12:13:10  <Brianetta> it works just as well in foreign languages
12:13:24  <Brianetta> Char: Have them stop behaving at all?
12:13:43  <Brianetta> by enemies, do you mean competing companies?
12:14:07  <Char> yeah
12:14:09  <Char> i mean
12:14:28  <Brianetta> commonly accepted wisdom is to replace AI players with human ones
12:14:28  <Char> they build like three identical lines between a coal mine and a power plant which are 20 tiles away from each other
12:15:05  <Brianetta> The alternative is to wait patiently for the NOAI engine to be completed, and for some decent competitors to be written.
12:15:16  <Brianetta> Or, just play solo.
12:15:53  <Char> hmmm
12:17:36  <planetmaker> or get a binary from the NoAI branch :)
12:17:38  <Char> will the new AI ever be completed? ;)
12:18:06  <planetmaker> It's working already quite nice. And it's not _the_ - there are many around, good, better and less good ones :)
12:18:15  <Char> but
12:18:20  <Char> does it work for trains as well?
12:18:26  <planetmaker> yes
12:18:36  <Char> cause there is one AI around which just works for road vehicles
12:18:40  <Char> and where can i get it/
12:18:41  <Char> ?
12:18:57  <planetmaker> look in the forums General OpenTTD - noai subforum.
12:19:09  <planetmaker> Get Yexo's Admiral AI. I guess it's one of the best and it does everything except ships.
12:20:01  <Char> uhmmmm
12:20:02  <Char> The NoAI framework provides an API to write your own AI. AI's can be written using squirrel. Currently, it's not possible to build rails/trains, but that will come at some point in the future.
12:20:05  <Char>
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12:23:18  <Brianetta> planetmaker: Some admiral.
12:23:59  <planetmaker> Char: that's an old posting. Search for admiral AI.
12:24:12  <planetmaker> Brianetta: how do you mean?
12:25:51  <Brianetta> planetmaker: Look up "admiral" in a dictionary.
12:26:29  <Char> ??
12:26:31  <planetmaker> ... and?
12:26:36  <Char> well
12:26:40  <Char> i found what i need i guess
12:26:52  <Brianetta> "...and it does everything except ships."
12:27:01  <Celestar> "13:18 < planetmaker> Get Yexo's Admiral AI. I guess it's one of the best and it does everything except ships." <= trains too?!
12:27:12  <planetmaker> yes.
12:27:17  <Celestar> awesome
12:27:20  <planetmaker> indeed :)
12:27:21  <Celestar> I want to see it :P
12:27:30  <Celestar> but I've got to head to a meeting in a few
12:27:31  <planetmaker> look through the thread, it has images :)
12:27:32  <Brianetta> Perhaps you should look up irony, too, because an AI called "Admiral" that can do everything but ships is deeply ironic.
12:27:43  <Gekz> hha
12:27:49  <planetmaker> oh... :)
12:27:52  <Char> i just downloaded it
12:27:56  <Char> seems to be pretty nice
12:28:12  <planetmaker> k, missed that one :)
12:28:27  <planetmaker> but airforce also uses admirals, no?
12:30:09  <planetmaker> And I think its origin is in a plane-only AI.
12:30:36  <Rubidium> who noai's about naming things completely opposite
12:30:44  <Rubidium> s/who/whole/
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12:31:18  <Celestar> I gotta go
12:31:20  <Celestar> cu later today
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12:32:59  <Char> hmmm
12:33:08  <Char> no, i guess airforce does not have admirals
12:33:42  <Rubidium> they're called (air) marshals in the airforce
12:35:08  <Char> how do i choose the AI to be used?
12:38:41  <planetmaker> Rubidium: the creator of AdmiralAI obviously chose a mis-leading name then :) . At least in German language we have admirals in the airforce, too - so I guess it might be the same in aviation in the Netherlands, too.
12:38:54  <keyweed_> nope
12:39:18  <keyweed_>
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12:40:36  <Brianetta> planetmaker: airforce uses sky marshal or general (depending whether it's commonwealth or US), never admiral
12:41:02  <Char> weird
12:41:08  <Char> i cannot get the AI to do anything
12:41:17  <Char> actually i cannot even get it to start a company
12:41:23  <Char> ah
12:41:24  <Char> now it works
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12:41:47  <keyweed_> it was waiting for just the right moment
12:41:49  <planetmaker> I also erred with the German ranks :)
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12:46:00  <fjb> Hello
12:47:44  <Char> wow
12:48:24  <Char> i wonder how a local authority of a city can think "very good" of a transport company if all it does is steering literally hundreds of coal trucks through the city centre.
12:49:14  <dih> by bribing
12:49:22  <dih> by planting a bunch of trees around the town
12:49:30  <dih> various possibilities
12:49:52  <Char> no
12:49:56  <Char> its a computer player
12:50:08  <Char> and no, the computer player did not place shitloads of trees
12:50:11  <Gekz> I wonder why a city cares about the transferring of goods from one place to another
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12:50:29  <dih> Char: the ai cheats
12:50:34  <Char> ;)
12:50:36  <dih> it does
12:50:39  <dih> seriously
12:50:40  <Rubidium> dih: the noai AIs don't
12:50:56  <dih> how should i know which ai Char is talking about
12:51:05  <Char> and i wonder why the admiralAI i have here builds lots of train stations but never connects them
12:51:11  <Rubidium> dih: by reading the context?
12:51:12  <dih> if he's chatting up in this channel i assume it's the current ai
12:51:16  <dih> not the noai branch :-P
12:51:19  <dih> true
12:51:22  <dih> that would be a good point
12:51:58  <dih> still i thought that was the reason you guys had an extra channel :-P
12:52:28  <Rubidium> so there isn't any OTTD talk in #tycoon?
12:52:40  <dih> i dont know - i never visit that channel
12:52:45  <Brianetta> Rubidium: They tut and sigh when we try it
12:53:09  <Brianetta> #tycoon is an extension of the off-topic forum, as far as I can tell.
12:53:16  <dih> :-P
12:53:58  <Char> sorry for speaking in the wrong channel btw :P
12:54:36  <dih> Char: if you really were i think the devs would have mentioned it
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13:24:09  <Belugas> hello evryone
13:24:44  <dih> hello Belugas
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13:26:48  <Belugas> hey dih :)
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15:44:36  <Celestar> man .. nested screens are evil
15:44:58  <Belugas> birds nesting on your screens is even worse
15:46:47  <Celestar> ..
15:47:08  <Celestar> and I wish people on the supercomputer would FINALLY learn how to use the queueing system :S
15:47:25  <Celestar> and not put 96-CPU jobs into the max-8-CPUs-job queue
15:48:14  <petern> heh
15:48:52  <Celestar> because there are currently > 120 jobs in that queue marked as "ERROR"
15:49:02  <Celestar> some of them for a fortnight already.
15:49:09  <Celestar> apparently people really really need that data badly
15:49:34  <planetmaker> :D
15:50:00  <Celestar> note: of these 120 jobs, about 100 are from only 4 different people (accounts)
15:50:15  <planetmaker> There's two things which are infinite: human stupidity and the universe. I'm not sure about the latter.
15:50:31  <planetmaker> (Einstein)
15:50:34  <Celestar> I know :D
15:50:55  <planetmaker> I would have been surprised if you didn't :)
15:50:58  <Celestar> lol
15:51:00  * Celestar bows
15:51:13  <Celestar> heh. AdmiralAI looks really awesome
15:51:54  <planetmaker> people in your business know that quote generally :)
15:52:02  <planetmaker> yeah, looks awesome :)
15:52:56  <Celestar> I wish my advisor would understand a BIT about what I am doing :S
15:53:03  <Celestar> s/understand/care
15:53:06  <planetmaker> :S
15:53:51  <Celestar> he *just* discovered that he sent me on a conference next week for which we have NOTHING up to now
15:54:05  <Celestar> he dicoveres this about every other week for two months now
15:55:36  <Celestar> first item on every meeting: "Remind professor who you are and what you do"
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15:57:08  <Celestar> so when do we integrate cargodest, IS and noAI into trunk? :P
15:57:24  <glx> NoAI depends on NAIL
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15:57:38  <Celestar> there was also some question about crossing bridges on the forum, what about them?
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16:01:04  <Celestar> because they'd be fun :P
16:02:33  <Aali> crossing bridges? just give me diagonal bridges
16:03:01  <Celestar> diag brides are hell to code
16:03:26  <Belugas> yeah
16:03:41  <Belugas> in fact, they even may give us problem with the map
16:03:52  <Belugas> not to mention the blatant lack of gfx
16:03:57  <Celestar> not so crossing bridges
16:04:02  * Belugas nods
16:04:09  <Aali> thats up there with signaled bridges, eh
16:04:29  <Celestar> in fact, crossing bridges just work
16:04:32  <Belugas> that's another story...
16:04:35  <Celestar> (at least they did when last I checked)
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16:05:03  <glx> they just look ugly
16:05:20  <Celestar> yeah
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16:05:24  <Celestar> that's why I have disabled them
16:05:40  <Belugas> nice boy
16:05:47  <Celestar> but if memory serves, that's the only reason :P
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16:06:04  <Celestar> so IF we have nice grfs for crossing bridges, we could put them in
16:06:30  <Celestar> so where are our designers ?
16:06:45  <Rubidium> ?
16:06:49  <Belugas> they are busy with opengfx :)
16:06:50  <Celestar> :P
16:06:59  <Celestar> Belugas: with the graphics or the license?
16:07:03  <Celestar> (=
16:07:15  <Belugas> dunno
16:07:21  <Belugas> totally dunno
16:07:22  <Rubidium> they appear to have eliminated all but one license
16:07:26  <Sacro> or just masturbating frantically over blender
16:07:30  <Celestar> lol
16:07:56  <Celestar> Rubidium: which one is that one?
16:07:57  * Rubidium imagines a will it blend: OpenTTD and OpenGFX
16:08:09  <Celestar> CA-SS-DA-ZR-SDF GTI Quattro 16V ?
16:08:17  <Sacro> Celestar: TDi?
16:08:19  <Rubidium> Celestar: GPL-2
16:08:35  <Celestar> Rubidium: isn't that what has been suggest like a decade ago?
16:08:38  <Celestar> Sacro: sorry, I forgot :P
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16:12:40  <Celestar> would it be possible to add some flag to a NewBridge that signalls whether sprites for crossings are present?
16:13:08  <Rubidium> Celestar: <- for the admins
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16:16:27  <Celestar> Rubidium: LOL
16:16:33  <Celestar> where's the liquid coming from?
16:16:41  <Rubidium> the red bull ofcourse
16:16:45  <Celestar> oh
16:16:46  <Celestar> right :P
16:16:48  <Celestar> forgot :P
16:18:13  <glx> nice result
16:18:31  <Rubidium> you should watch the rake episode too
16:20:02  * Celestar watches his data
16:20:14  <Ammler> suse :-)
16:23:54  <Celestar> ..
16:23:59  <Celestar> the DVB-C receiver crashed again
16:24:04  * Celestar goes rebooting it
16:24:36  <Sacro> hmm, no -C in this city :(
16:24:53  <Celestar> sucks anyway
16:25:01  <Celestar> -S is better
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16:28:01  * Celestar forgets his data and goes watching SG-1
16:28:39  <Rubidium> that's like ancient or depending how you look at it: not ancient ;)
16:28:56  <Celestar> er ?
16:28:59  <Celestar> what is?
16:29:12  <Eddi|zuHause> "FÌße hoch! Flachwitz!" :p
16:29:21  <Celestar> hm
16:29:53  <Rubidium> Celestar: SG-1 is ancient (based on date-of-broadcast), although Atlantis has to do with ancients
16:30:06  <Celestar> heh
16:30:30  <Celestar> dunno what episode it is
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16:34:26  * Rubidium votes for: one I have already seen ;)
16:34:29  <Celestar> heh
16:34:46  <Celestar> Rubidium: the typical "Attack first, ask questions later"-scheme
16:35:45  <Rubidium> that's all what stargate's about
16:37:17  <Eddi|zuHause> i thought about cheap costumes and random references to various mythologies
16:38:05  <Rubidium> it's just a series of mythologies in a more modern coat
16:38:19  <Celestar> but I like it anyway
16:38:31  <Celestar> it's one of the better shows on german TV
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17:13:32  <Celestar> bbl
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17:46:39  <Sacro>
17:48:09  <FauxFaux> Pwnt.
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18:43:53  <CIA-5> OpenTTD: translators * r14539 /trunk/src/lang/ (10 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
18:43:53  <CIA-5> OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2008-10-27 18:43:26
18:43:53  <CIA-5> OpenTTD: dutch - 5 fixed by habell (5)
18:43:53  <CIA-5> OpenTTD: french - 5 fixed by glx (5)
18:43:53  <CIA-5> OpenTTD: galician - 5 fixed by Condex (5)
18:43:55  <CIA-5> OpenTTD: ido - 31 fixed by Cecile (31)
18:43:55  <CIA-5> OpenTTD: indonesian - 50 fixed by dnaftali (50)
18:44:09  <planetmaker> quick question: where do I look, if the game asserts on changing a setting? (openttd.cpp:143)
18:44:28  <planetmaker> I kind of fail to find a place... :S
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18:44:57  <Burty> hey Everyone
18:45:19  <planetmaker> *advanced setting
18:45:31  <Rubidium> planetmaker: you could start by using gdb
18:45:43  <planetmaker> I feared that answer :D
18:46:04  <planetmaker> I guess time to really get to know gdb a bit better...
18:46:36  <petern> and a non-stripped build
18:46:59  <planetmaker> hm... what are the compile options for that?
18:47:18  <Rubidium> ./configure --help ?
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18:47:34  <Wolf01> hello
18:47:36  <planetmaker> ... --enable-debug :)
18:54:39  <welshdragon> you want to debug Wolf01?
18:54:57  <Wolf01> I might need it
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19:05:15  <Celestar> \o
19:07:58  <dih>  /
19:08:03  <dih> \/\
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19:08:06  <dih> ops
19:08:07  <dih> gnah
19:09:16  <Celestar> ?
19:09:20  * Celestar blinks
19:10:03  <ben_goodger> schwaff!
19:10:12  <Belugas> never mind him, he's our usual clown ^_^
19:10:24  <ben_goodger> :)
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19:11:05  <Celestar> hey AI dev :)
19:11:46  <Belugas> who?  Me?  I ain't
19:12:24  <Celestar> no Yexo
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19:13:22  <Yexo> hello Celestar
19:13:45  <Celestar> sda          3.00   0.50 87.00 253.00 58880.00 151019.50 29440.00 75509.75   617.35     6.01   19.11   2.03  69.00
19:13:49  <Celestar> sdb          0.00   0.00  1.50  7.50   12.00   49.50     6.00    24.75     6.83     0.14   15.78   5.56   5.00
19:13:52  <Celestar> sdc          0.00   0.00 107.50 78.50 89964.00 74188.50 44982.00 37094.25   882.54     2.14   11.53   2.67  49.60
19:13:55  <Celestar> how this is what I call I/O :)
19:14:12  <Yexo> what are all those numbers?
19:14:18  <FauxFaux> Large.
19:14:23  <ben_goodger> Celestar: you forgot the column titles
19:14:27  <Celestar> yeah
19:14:34  <Celestar> Device:    rrqm/s wrqm/s   r/s   w/s  rsec/s  wsec/s    rkB/s    wkB/s avgrq-sz avgqu-sz   await  svctm  %util
19:14:38  <Celestar> here they are (=
19:14:57  <ben_goodger> ah, yes, that's much more useful o.o
19:15:10  <Celestar> r = read, w = write
19:15:16  <Celestar> :P
19:15:28  <ben_goodger> well, yes
19:15:39  <ben_goodger> avgqu-sz is a bit more subtle
19:15:45  <ben_goodger> as is svctm
19:15:53  <Celestar> rrqm/s avgqu-sz The average queue length of the requests that were issued to the device.
19:16:06  <ben_goodger> ah
19:16:19  <Celestar>
19:16:20  <Celestar> here :)
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19:17:10  <ben_goodger> thank yo
19:17:21  <Celestar> Yexo: I'd like to test your AI soon. what do I need?
19:17:47  <Yexo> admiralai.tar and a noai build
19:17:55  <Yexo> binaries at
19:18:01  <Celestar> k
19:18:08  <Celestar> any newGRFs possible/recommended?
19:18:28  <Yexo> all should work
19:18:35  <Celestar> awesome
19:18:36  <Yexo> so just your favourite combination :)
19:18:47  <Celestar> :D
19:19:09  <Yexo> although the 2ccset may give some problems because the building cost are really high, I suggest to put parameter 0 to 1 or 2 (sandbox or easy mode)
19:19:10  <Rubidium> Celestar: and if it doesn't work you can flame him ;)
19:19:42  <Celestar> heh
19:19:43  <Celestar> ok
19:19:46  <Celestar> I shall
19:19:56  * Celestar hands out some asbestos suits :P
19:20:20  * ben_goodger is hospitalised due to asbestosis
19:21:06  * Celestar slaps ben_goodger "You are supposed to read the iostat man page, not to end up in hospital"
19:21:35  <ben_goodger> you gave me an asbestos suit, dammit
19:22:01  <Celestar> oh right
19:22:02  *** Dred_furst [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
19:22:02  <Celestar> :P
19:22:39  <Belugas> not the same as an albatros that sues you
19:23:00  <Yexo> Celestar: What is the status of cargodest? How long before it can hit trunk?
19:23:28  <Celestar> Yexo: there's some problem with refits mainly, but I cannot continue development for the next 7 days.
19:23:33  * Rubidium likes the name of the town where they used to make asbestos products in the NL: "Goor" (in english: dirty/squalid)
19:23:57  <Celestar> Yexo: after that, it will hopefully go very fast. you want to code AdmiralAI for cargodest? ;)
19:24:09  <Yexo> I've already done a big part for that
19:24:10  <Rubidium> okay... seven days have past ;)
19:24:55  * Celestar takes Rubidium's starship away
19:25:14  * Rubidium just hit a solar flare ;)
19:26:31  *** Fuco [] has quit [Read error: No route to host]
19:27:25  <Aali> will AI's ever have support for IS?
19:27:34  * Celestar points at Yexo
19:27:39  <Celestar> I think they will
19:27:49  <Yexo> infrastructure sharing?
19:27:54  <Aali> yes
19:27:58  <Yexo> as soon as such a patch is in trunk I'll code support for it
19:30:51  *** Fuco [] has joined #openttd
19:33:15  <Aali> i really hope it does get into trunk
19:33:48  <Celestar> I'll try to see to it :)
19:33:53  <Aali> the only reason i'm not playing NoAI is that it would be a pain in the ass to merge it with my other patches
19:34:59  <Celestar> would it? why?
19:35:37  <Yexo> noai merges with cargodest with only 3 (very small) failed blocks
19:35:57  *** rortom [] has joined #openttd
19:36:43  <Aali> i dont play cargodest
19:36:58  <Celestar> cargodest + IS is a killer combo
19:37:00  <Celestar> :)
19:38:14  <Yexo> Aali: NoAI changes only a few things in 'trunk code'. Most of the code is in the ai/ directory so doesn't create conflicts with other patches. I was trying to point that out by giving cargodest (not a small patch) as example
19:38:38  *** yorick [] has joined #openttd
19:38:42  <Aali> Yexo: hmm, i might just give it a try then
19:40:33  <planetmaker> [20:36]	<Celestar>	cargodest + IS is a killer combo <-- very much so. But the current patch is broken and buggy.
19:40:45  <planetmaker> :( And I'm too bloody stupid to fix it.
19:40:49  <Celestar> :(
19:40:59  <Celestar> planetmaker: I'll help at some point
19:41:03  <planetmaker> :)
19:41:20  <Aali> Yexo: but it wont be using IS automagicly, right?
19:41:25  <Yexo> the current patch is buggy?
19:41:26  <yorick> planetmaker: lazy*
19:41:38  <Yexo> Aali: no
19:41:49  <planetmaker> Yexo: yes. It got some problems in the latest versions.
19:41:58  <Yexo> I had the impression it worked pretty well, but I haven't tried it myself lately
19:42:01  <Aali> which is better than nothing but still not great
19:42:04  <planetmaker> And it's buggy. It asserts, when I enable per-company support :O
19:42:16  <planetmaker> Yeah. lately is the thing :)
19:42:37  <planetmaker> I've the definite feeling it's beyond my current c/c++ ability.
19:42:54  <Yexo> I might give it a go
19:42:56  <planetmaker> was ok, 1k revisions ago.
19:42:57  <Aali> planetmaker: i haven't had any problems with it, i never use per-company settings though
19:43:20  <planetmaker> And currently waypoints don't block competitors trains anymore, either. No idea why.
19:43:54  <Aali> wasn't that considered a bug and "fixed" by some guy?
19:43:58  <Yexo> Does (a proper implemented) IS have any chance of going into trunk?
19:44:40  <planetmaker> well - not that I know :)
19:45:06  <Celestar> Yexo: that depends what the team decides upon (=
19:45:07  <planetmaker> Some people may consider it a bug. I consider that a feature: you can reserve some tracks for your exclusive usage.
19:46:25  <yorick> it needs a separate thing, I think
19:46:27  <Celestar> Yexo: and on Rubidium's opinion, really
19:46:29  <Yexo> Celestar: of course, but fixing IS might be (probably is) a lot if work, so I'd like to hear some opinions about that before starting to work on something that'll never hit trunk anyway
19:47:02  <fjb> Hm, is blocking waypoints really a good idea? I'm often using waypoints on my networks.
19:47:16  <Celestar> I'm using them too
19:47:26  <Celestar> not often, but here and there
19:47:43  <Aali> and you can still keep a separate network not connected to anyone elses
19:47:52  <fjb> Waypoints would block half of my network...
19:47:53  <Aali> unless you're sharing depots, of course
19:48:26  <planetmaker> Yexo: quite probable not in the current implementation
19:49:39  <planetmaker> Celestar made a number of quite good comments on the current patch... Even I understand them :P
19:50:02  <planetmaker> I implemented some, but the big ones... alas.
19:50:16  <Celestar> :P
19:50:44  <planetmaker> [20:47]	<Aali>	and you can still keep a separate network not connected to anyone elses <-- that's not always an option :)
19:51:02  <planetmaker> I agree though, that abusing waypoints is hackish.
19:51:11  <Celestar> very
19:51:25  <planetmaker> But IMO the patch needs the possibility to block competitors using certain of your tracks
19:51:31  <Celestar> yes
19:51:53  <planetmaker> But I didn't find another easy solution; the current is a hack for wwottdgd/2
19:52:01  <Aali> yeah, of course, ideally you would want some kind of company signals
19:52:15  <planetmaker> yeah. Something.
19:52:18  <Aali> or company markers or whatever
19:52:39  <planetmaker> Another nice thing would allow access on a per-station basis than general
19:52:49  <Yexo> I think it should be the other way around: by default disallow and have some sort of waypoint that allows opponents train to enter your network
19:52:54  *** Purno [] has quit [Quit: Always remember you're unique, just like everyone else.]
19:53:00  <Celestar> hm
19:53:05  <Celestar> this needs further discussion
19:53:06  <planetmaker> Yexo: default is no sharing at all :)
19:53:17  <planetmaker> if you allow, you allow general access.
19:53:40  <Yexo> and I think you should be able to allow only on certain parts of the network
19:53:45  <Aali> Yexo: that would be hard to implement though, since you would have to keep track of where a shared segment starts/ends
19:54:06  <planetmaker> Yexo: that's why I implemented the waypoint hack: easily place one at the entry of the no-go-area and you're done
19:54:14  <Aali> opt-out is a lot easier to handle, code-wise
19:54:17  <Celestar> yes
19:54:17  <Celestar> much
19:54:18  <Yexo> Aali: it's not, you only have to keep track of who's train it is and who's track it is.
19:54:37  <planetmaker> yexo: code-wise it's much easier to define blocking tiles
19:54:46  <planetmaker> than make it a tile property
19:55:02  <Celestar> er go for it step-by-step.
19:55:07  <Yexo> sure, blocking tiles are easier, but certain allow-tile are not too hard either
19:55:16  *** Char [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:55:19  <Celestar> the opt-out thingy can be added later on
19:55:19  <planetmaker> the idea of "company signals" is one which isn't bad IMO.
19:55:28  <planetmaker> full ack
19:55:46  <planetmaker> a first step would be just allow sharing, even without company settings IMO
19:56:02  <planetmaker> just a switch yes/no and setting global fees.
19:56:11  <planetmaker> 2nd ist customization
19:56:38  <planetmaker> 3rd is advanced stuff like local access control and per-company access
19:57:53  <Celestar> *nod*
19:58:08  <Celestar> a separate hg repo would be handy methinks
19:58:13  <rortom> hi all
19:58:17  * planetmaker has seperate hg repo
19:58:20  <Celestar> good (=
19:58:25  <rortom> has the nightly of yesterday a desync bug?
19:58:42  <rortom> cause its desyncing all the time :|
19:58:51  <planetmaker> rortom: changed any grf?
19:59:03  <rortom> i used the openttdcoop GRF
19:59:05  <Yexo> rortom: does it also desync after loading a savegame on the server?
19:59:06  <planetmaker> as compared to before?
19:59:10  <rortom> from one savegame
19:59:32  <planetmaker> rortom: that's not an answer :) Some of the grfs may desync under certain cirucumstances
19:59:34  <rortom> it ran quite fine for ~50 game years
20:00:06  <rortom> i thought the openttdcoop guys only use stable grfs?
20:00:11  <rortom> *sets
20:00:28  <planetmaker> well. Yes. But you never know :)
20:00:41  <planetmaker> And it's not always the fault of the grfs :P
20:00:44  <rortom> mh, true :\
20:01:04  <planetmaker> so: do you use other grfs than before? And if so: which?
20:01:27  <rortom> i started the server yesterday, not used before
20:01:39  <rortom> i can give you a GRF list if you want
20:01:55  <planetmaker> sure :) URL?
20:02:06  *** Bjarni [] has joined #openttd
20:02:06  *** mode/#openttd [+o Bjarni] by ChanServ
20:02:06  <planetmaker> does it desync with an older version?
20:02:13  <rortom> im about to test
20:03:05  <rortom>
20:05:17  *** TinoM [] has quit [Quit: Verlassend]
20:05:20  <rortom> its a shame that the protocol cannot detect why it desyncs :(
20:05:41  <Bjarni> how would you get it to detect why it desyncs?
20:05:55  <planetmaker> rortom: try to disable suburban houses and give it another try.
20:06:00  <planetmaker> just a random idea.
20:06:06  * Sacro is playing OpenTTD
20:06:10  <Bjarni> it makes a checksum of the stuff in the game and compares the checksum
20:06:48  <rortom> Bjarni: exatcly, thats the problem ;)
20:07:03  <rortom> planetmaker, thanks for the tip :D
20:08:47  <planetmaker> forget what I said. it's stations, not houses what you have :)
20:09:10  *** Eddi|zuHause2 [] has joined #openttd
20:10:18  <Bjarni> how would you fix this?
20:10:20  <Bjarni> I mean how would you make it detect what went wrong?
20:10:26  <Bjarni> I can imagine something but it would create way too much traffic
20:10:29  *** iwein [] has joined #openttd
20:10:30  <Bjarni> like transmitting the whole savegame every tick
20:10:40  <Bjarni> rortom: do you fancy some coding?
20:10:42  <Bjarni> like making a feature that makes a savegame right away if a game desyncs
20:10:47  *** Eddi|zuHause [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20:10:55  <Yexo> planetmaker: Is the patch posted by Thief^ the latest is patch?
20:10:56  <SpComb> Bjarni: send absolute info, not deltas
20:11:03  <Bjarni> it should be done at the same tick on both server and client though so I don't know if it's possible to get the timing right
20:11:11  <SpComb> but myes, it's a bit silly with a TCP-based network protocol
20:11:17  <SpComb> desyncs are bugs
20:11:20  <planetmaker> Yexo: yes. I've locally a bit different, but not really different.
20:11:25  <Bjarni> but it would be nice to have the savegames to compare when it goes wrong :)
20:11:32  <planetmaker> It's a bit better wrt coding style :)
20:11:49  <rortom> mhm
20:11:58  <rortom> i have no idea what would be the best solution
20:12:02  <planetmaker> I can pm you, if you like.
20:12:09  <Bjarni> 9 lines during 1 sec o_O
20:12:10  <rortom> but it would be great to have to identify the source
20:12:24  <rortom> sure
20:12:51  <Bjarni> somehow I think it was because the internet lagged and stored all the packages in the router or something :/
20:13:05  <planetmaker> actually. My local copy, Yexo, now applies to current trunk
20:13:13  <planetmaker> the old one doesn't
20:14:36  <Yexo> planetmaker: can you upload that somewhere?
20:14:41  <Aali> planetmaker: are you the one maintaining the IS patch?
20:15:05  <planetmaker> Aali: well. Trying to is the better phrase. Yes, I'll upload in the IS thread.
20:15:44  <Aali> planetmaker: i see
20:15:57  <Aali> and no-one is really working on it?
20:16:35  <Yexo> Aali: I'm going to do some work on it now, see if I can improve it a bit
20:16:52  <Aali> awesome
20:17:03  <Aali> as long as it doesn't die out
20:17:08  <Aali> that'd be a shame
20:17:24  *** Dr_Jekyll [] has quit [Quit: - das Wiki rund um's Thema Lager und Logistik]
20:17:28  <Bjarni> rortom: if you desync all the time, then hack the source to make an uncompressed savegame every tick on both server and client
20:17:38  <planetmaker> Yexo: posted
20:18:04  <Bjarni> then you can compare the savegames and figure out the difference
20:18:05  <planetmaker> Nice that you'll have a look, Yexo :)
20:18:38  *** XeryusTC [] has quit [Quit: Solong, and thanks for all the fish]
20:18:42  <Yexo> I won't promise any results :p
20:19:20  *** nekx [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20:19:26  <petern> Bjarni, and then try to figure out why the difference...
20:19:54  *** XeryusTC [] has joined #openttd
20:19:57  <planetmaker> yexo: so did I - it worked for a few months :)
20:19:59  <Bjarni> yeah... this could take a while
20:20:09  <Bjarni> but you have the answer
20:20:23  <planetmaker> you've more experience than me though. So... :)
20:20:24  <Bjarni> no guesswork... just hardcore savegame decoding
20:20:33  <ln> is it recommended to use MS Comic Chat on this channel?
20:20:55  <Bjarni> nothing named "MS*" is recommended :P
20:21:11  *** Celestar [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:23:05  <Bjarni> actually savegame decoding is not as tricky as you might think
20:23:27  <rortom> mh, phone :\
20:23:29  <yorick> it is not at all as tricking as you might think
20:23:34  <yorick> tricky*
20:23:36  *** fonso [] has joined #openttd
20:24:09  <Bjarni> but using uncompressed savegames helps a lot :)
20:24:20  <yorick> you could just uncompress them...
20:24:35  <Bjarni> you could start by using something like diff to figure out what difference you have
20:24:52  *** vvv444 [] has joined #openttd
20:25:01  <Bjarni> <yorick> you could just uncompress them... <-- yeah, but compressing a savegame every tick would demand a fast CPU
20:25:29  <yorick> saving an uncompressed savegame every tick would demand some hd speed
20:25:41  <Bjarni> yeah
20:25:50  <planetmaker> he :P
20:26:11  <Bjarni> don't do it on a remote drive
20:26:29  <yorick> @calc 30*74
20:26:29  <DorpsGek> yorick: 2220
20:26:30  <Bjarni> and you shouldn't use too big maps either
20:26:32  <yorick> ooh
20:26:39  <yorick> that requires some hd space
20:26:44  <yorick> every second
20:27:32  <planetmaker> 74 ticks per second?
20:27:34  <Wolf01> 'night
20:27:39  *** Wolf01 [] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
20:27:43  <yorick> yes
20:27:45  <Bjarni> don't use fast forward :P
20:27:50  <planetmaker> :P
20:28:03  <Yexo> isn't it 30 ticks per second and 74 ticks per ingame day?
20:28:09  <yorick> hm
20:28:17  <yorick> you have a point
20:28:26  *** iwein [] has quit [Quit: iwein]
20:28:27  <Bjarni> as I said: it's demanding, but once you got the savegames it will be a whole lot easier to figure out why it desyncs
20:28:41  <planetmaker> 90MB/s is a lot for current PCs, too. I doubt that most will cope.
20:29:12  <Bjarni> I did this even on the old computer
20:29:21  <Bjarni> the trick is to limit the size of the map
20:29:22  <Yexo> if you know when it desyncs, you don't have to save the savegames for a long time, and of course a lot can be cached in ram
20:29:28  <Bjarni> and not having 65k vehicles
20:29:32  <Bjarni> *64k
20:29:50  <planetmaker> you only need to save one savegame: when the sync check gives you a true.
20:29:57  <Bjarni> yeah
20:30:15  <planetmaker> but then you better have both: server and client :)
20:30:23  <Yexo> that's only enough if you enable syncs checks every tick
20:30:24  <planetmaker> but maybe via a new docommand :)
20:30:29  <Bjarni> only having the client would make little sense
20:30:34  <yorick> Yexo: you want to store 30 savegames each 30 mb in ram every second?
20:30:53  <planetmaker> no need to store uncompressed.
20:31:00  <Yexo> yorick: why 30mb each?
20:31:08  <Bjarni> no time to compress that amount of data
20:31:09  <yorick> you mean yu can compress 30 savegames each second?
20:31:14  <Bjarni> 30 mb sounds like a lot
20:31:19  <Yexo> depending on map size
20:31:27  <Yexo> but still 30mb sounds very big
20:31:28  <Bjarni> are you sure you aren't using some huge map/game?
20:31:32  <planetmaker> still. 90% compression is hardly feasable with any data.
20:31:33  <yorick> 30mb is 2048x2048
20:31:45  <planetmaker> which is oversized
20:31:48  <Yexo> just don't do desync debugging on that big maps :)
20:32:10  <Bjarni> how many times do I have to say that you should use a "small" map?
20:32:17  <Bjarni> I did it on a 256x256 map
20:32:31  <Bjarni> and I didn't have any problems saving it on an old and slow HD
20:32:36  <yorick> you need your reproduceable desync to fit on a 256 map
20:33:05  <planetmaker> which should be no problem
20:33:09  <Bjarni> then you better get started making such a game
20:33:38  <Bjarni> if it's a bug that happens most of the time it should be fairly easy to trigger it
20:33:44  <planetmaker> ^^^
20:33:57  <Bjarni> 3 eyes?
20:34:05  <Bjarni> are you a mutant?
20:34:55  <Belugas> that's his nose, up in the air!
20:35:11  <Bjarni> mutant nose :/
20:35:16  <yorick> he has a pointy nose
20:35:17  <rortom> so
20:35:23  <rortom> what about blackbox testing
20:35:27  <Bjarni> which means....
20:35:31  <Bjarni> A WITCH!
20:35:35  <Bjarni> burn him!
20:35:44  <rortom> start client and server with certain GRF settings
20:35:58  <Prof_Frink> Bjarni: A pointy nose doesn't make him a witch.
20:35:59  <rortom> when it desyncs, diff the savegames
20:36:11  <Prof_Frink> Fetch the duck!
20:36:26  *** fjb [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20:36:32  <yorick> Prof_Frink: witchducks!
20:36:34  <yorick> burn them
20:37:08  *** fjb [] has joined #openttd
20:40:22  *** yorick [] has left #openttd [Poef!]
20:40:44  <Bjarni> maybe it would be a good idea to write code to enable one savegame every tick instead of writing code for it every time it's needed
20:41:16  <Bjarni> we should just disable it with ifdef unless we actually need it
20:41:47  <SpComb> tick........... tick............ tick............
20:42:15  <Bjarni> I always knew that SpComb would be a ticking bomb
20:42:25  * SpComb defuses
20:42:37  <Bjarni> however I thought mentally unstable bombs were actually silent until they blow
20:43:05  <planetmaker> hehe. Got a 3rd additional artificial eye.
20:43:23  <planetmaker> and no need to burn me. The devil likes fire :P
20:43:30  <planetmaker> Mephisto ... hehehehe :)
20:44:11  <Bjarni> so you are a mutant
20:44:16  <planetmaker> sure :)
20:44:18  <Bjarni> NO MUTANTS ALLOWED
20:44:28  *** Sacro [~ben@adsl-87-102-39-137.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:44:31  <planetmaker> We are borg. Resistance is futile
20:44:46  <Bjarni> <-- so you can never visit this server :P
20:45:06  <Bjarni> something is wrong
20:45:13  <planetmaker> lool. Obviously I could, though :)
20:45:24  <Bjarni> looks like my DNS died :(
20:45:37  *** planetmaker was kicked from #openttd by Belugas [You did not resist much!]
20:45:37  *** planetmaker [] has joined #openttd
20:45:41  <planetmaker> looking at it, my desire to lurk there is quite low, though
20:45:50  <Bjarni> no webpages works for me right now
20:45:52  <planetmaker> :D
20:46:27  <Bjarni> I haven't looked at that page for ages... I just remembered the name and thought it would fit this context quite good
20:46:58  <planetmaker> :)
20:47:33  <planetmaker> I never knew that ^^should denote the number of eyes... irc is strange.
20:48:05  <Bjarni> it's not IRC only
20:48:05  <planetmaker> I should get some RL foooood :)
20:48:09  <Bjarni> it's a smiley
20:48:10  *** FR^2 [] has quit [Quit: Connection reset by caffein depletion...]
20:48:29  <planetmaker> I'm a smiley analphabet, too :)
20:48:29  <glx> <@Bjarni> maybe it would be a good idea to write code to enable one savegame every tick instead of writing code for it every time it's needed <-- like configure --enable-desync-debug ?
20:48:41  <Bjarni> that would be one way to start :)
20:49:02  <Bjarni> planetmaker: @.@
20:50:33  <planetmaker> I'm amazed :P
20:50:54  <glx> <rortom> when it desyncs, diff the savegames <-- the desync may be caused by something that happened 3 months before the actual desync
20:51:57  <planetmaker> but I think my glasses are smaller :D
20:53:01  *** Sacro [~ben@adsl-87-102-39-137.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
20:53:18  <Bjarni> something is really wrong here
20:53:29  <Bjarni> no web server replies to me, nomatter what I try
20:54:15  <planetmaker> ping - does it work?
20:54:44  <Bjarni> no
20:54:45  *** iwein [] has joined #openttd
20:54:49  <ben_goodger> Bjarni: when my router does that, it typically means it has exhausted its TCP table and requires restart
20:54:58  *** rortom [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:54:59  <planetmaker> oh...
20:55:30  <Bjarni> then why am I still on IRC?
20:55:53  <planetmaker> Those announced dead live longer :D
20:55:57  <glx> because the connection is already established
20:56:07  <ben_goodger> quite
20:56:29  <ben_goodger> usually caused by overuse of torrents, in my experience
20:58:51  <Bjarni> quite interesting
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20:59:06  <Bjarni> because right now all my internet traffic is xchat and firefox
20:59:17  <Bjarni> that is... firefox isn't communicating right now
21:00:07  <planetmaker> Yeah, but FF has no permanent connections as opposed to irc.
21:00:18  <Bjarni> anyway if I disappear in a moment, then you will know why :P
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21:05:51  *** mode/#openttd [+b bjarni!*@*] by petern
21:05:52  <petern> hehe
21:06:27  <glx> lol
21:06:27  <Sacro> hahaha XD
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21:07:27  <ln> smaller than three
21:08:56  <Yexo> planetmaker: I've just read through the current is patch and I think I can better start over than continue from the existing patch. There are just too many problems with it.
21:09:24  <Rubidium> subsidiaries take 5?
21:09:40  <Yexo> I guess so :)
21:10:16  <Yexo> Rubidium: Is there a chance a proper written patch for that will hit trunk someday?
21:10:38  <planetmaker> Yexo: that's what I've been saying with "buggy" :)
21:10:51  <Yexo> "buggy" is an understatement here :)
21:10:52  <Rubidium> Yexo: there always is a chance
21:11:06  <Yexo> Rubidium: ok, rephase: what is your opinion about the idea?
21:11:41  *** mode/#openttd [-b bjarni!*@*] by petern
21:11:42  <Rubidium> "can't be bothered"/"personally not going to spend time in"
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21:13:03  <Nite_Owl> Hello all
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21:52:55  <Bjarni> FINALLY!
21:53:13  * Bjarni wonders how long it lasts
21:53:21  <Bjarni> anybody here?
21:53:47  <SmatZ> hello Bjarni
21:53:50  <SmatZ> you are too slow
21:53:55  <SmatZ> everyone's gone now
21:54:24  <Bjarni> 13 (  15.560 ms !X  15.109 ms !X * <-- this is what I get when I try to traceroute my DNS server D:
21:54:37  <SmatZ> :)
21:55:00  <Bjarni> my requests circles around inside my ISP (not locally) and eventually they time out
21:55:09  <Rubidium> nice, ain't it?
21:55:22  <Bjarni> so something is really wrong and since it's not locally I can't do anything about it
21:55:24  * dih hugs SmatZ
21:55:39  <dih> hugging a dev a day keeps the doctor away
21:55:49  <Bjarni> at least it looks like it's not something weird that I have to fix personally
21:55:57  <Bjarni> and I'm pretty sure the ISP noticed by now
21:56:02  <Rubidium> if only the doctor would come ;)
21:56:08  <dih> :-P
21:56:17  <SmatZ> :-)
21:56:34  <Rubidium> there's vast evidence that they have given others much later versions of OTTD; would cut development time quite a bit
21:56:46  <Bjarni>  9 (  14.914 ms  15.393 ms  16.022 ms
21:56:46  <Bjarni> 10  * * *
21:56:46  <Bjarni> 11  * * *
21:56:46  <Bjarni> 12  * * *
21:56:46  <Bjarni> 13  * * *
21:56:49  <Rubidium> although... it'd be like killing your parents
21:56:49  <Bjarni> this ain't good
21:56:53  <Bjarni> still the DNS server
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21:58:02  <Bjarni> what does !X mean in traceroute?
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21:58:42  <Nite_Owl> Bjarni: that seems to be a common complaint today - you are not alone
21:58:59  <Bjarni> the internet broke?
21:59:20  <Bjarni> I can't browse the net to figure out if it's a common problem
21:59:44  <Bjarni> worst problem is that I can't access uni and figure out what I should prepare for tomorrow :(
22:00:24  <Bjarni> anybody who have a working DNS server IP that I can borrow?
22:01:24  *** Lakie [~Lakie@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:01:25  *** Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause
22:01:30  <Bjarni> anybody reading this? :s
22:01:51  <FauxFaux> Nope.
22:01:57  <FauxFaux> Bjarni:, no, really.
22:02:11  <FauxFaux> Yes, it's low tier and public.
22:02:11  <Bjarni> I asked if people were reading what I wrote, not if people cared :P
22:02:34  <Bjarni> actually I guess you use some DNS to access the internet
22:02:50  <FauxFaux> tcp-over-dns ftw.
22:02:59  <Bjarni> err
22:03:06  <Bjarni> dns-over-tcp
22:03:16  <Bjarni> but I guess you are using some sort of DNS anyway :)
22:03:38  <Aali> no there's actually an app that lets you use IP over DNS
22:04:14  <FauxFaux> There's actually a standard for dns over tcp, it makes kind of sense.
22:04:36  <Aali> its very handy for circumventing those pay-for-access services, because they usually allow DNS lookups
22:05:06  <Aali> not that i would ever do that
22:05:13  <Aali> seeing as its illegal and whatnot
22:06:10  <Bjarni> what kind of interesting pay-for-access services are there?
22:06:18  <Bjarni> no, porn isn't interesting :P
22:07:08  <Aali> alot of trains here in sweden have internet access, but you have to pay for it unless you're in first class
22:07:19  <Bjarni> ahh
22:07:23  <Aali> lets just say their system isn't entirely bulletproof
22:07:36  <Bjarni> :)
22:07:46  <Prof_Frink> Aali: It used to be that The Cloud APs allowed access to anything on port 8443.
22:08:03  <FauxFaux> Yeah, some allow arbitary traffic on port 53 udp.
22:08:32  <Aali> these only allow access to their own internal DNS server
22:09:39  *** eMJay [] has joined #openttd
22:09:44  <Aali> actually, the uni i studied at last year suffered from the same problem
22:10:14  <Aali> of course, you couldn't access the internal network that way, which i guess is all they really care about
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22:19:45  <Eddi|zuHause> <-- muahaha... [german]
22:20:30  <Bjarni> that's cruel to do right now
22:20:39  <Bjarni> considering I stated that I can't use DNS
22:20:43  <Bjarni> however now it's working again
22:20:48  <Bjarni> it just started working again :D
22:21:21  <Bjarni> something went wrong for the ISP and it took out 38 towns
22:21:25  <Bjarni> *37
22:21:44  <Bjarni> no
22:21:46  <Bjarni> that's not it
22:21:54  <Eddi|zuHause> so just add another DNS server?
22:21:57  <ln> perhaps the windmill powering the DNS server has stopped.
22:22:04  <Bjarni> :P
22:22:15  <ben_goodger> s/windmill/hamsters
22:22:24  <Prof_Frink> s|$|/|
22:22:28  <Bjarni> <Eddi|zuHause> so just add another DNS server? <-- I asked several times for a DNS IP, yet nobody would give me one
22:22:35  <Bjarni> and all the ones I have failed
22:22:39  <ben_goodger> "thine is the hamster that powers the servers, and you'll pay for ever RM"
22:23:02  <Eddi|zuHause> mine is, but i fear it's only possible to use from t-online
22:23:29  <Eddi|zuHause> you could try, that used to be my university's DNS
22:24:26  <Bjarni> but now it's working again
22:24:27  <ln> someone tell opendns's ip to bjarni.
22:24:33  <SpComb>
22:24:49  <SpComb> and/or
22:24:50  <Bjarni> but yes, it would be nice to know :)
22:26:46  * Bjarni just wrote down the opendns IPs
22:27:03  <Bjarni> now I just need to store it somewhere where I can find it the next time something breaks
22:27:15  <Eddi|zuHause> it's easy to remember... that was the code for my mother's old car radio
22:27:43  <Eddi|zuHause> Bjarni: in /etc/resolv.conf ;)
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22:33:10  <Bjarni> I know how to add it
22:33:16  <Bjarni> however I wonder if it's a good idea
22:33:27  <Bjarni> to do on a daily basis
22:33:42  <Bjarni> I mean I read something about a security problem with opendns
22:33:56  <Bjarni> something about phishing that they didn't block
22:34:01  <Bjarni> or something like that
22:34:50  <glx> Bjarni just wrote down the opendns IPs <-- something.222.222 and something.220.220 IIRC
22:35:07  <glx> but I forgot the something part
22:35:38  <glx> just put them at the bottom of the list
22:35:46  <ln> there are only 254² possibilities, Bjarni can try them out quickly.
22:36:23  <Eddi|zuHause> less
22:36:43  <ben_goodger> :D
22:36:53  <Eddi|zuHause> 10 and 192 cannot be in the first place
22:37:08  <ln> not entirely true
22:37:21  <Eddi|zuHause> well, they can, but it wouldn't make any sense :p
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22:38:08  <ln> i've been using adsl connection where the nameservers were 10.something.
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22:39:11  <ln> and actually still are.
22:39:23  <glx> they are in the modem?
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22:39:47  <ln> nope, they are at the ISP.
22:40:02  <ln> and
22:40:38  <Eddi|zuHause> but those are internal to the ISP then
22:41:12  <ln> indeed
22:41:54  <Eddi|zuHause> we were talking about OpenDNS
22:42:09  <ben_goodger> opendns is bloody awful
22:42:18  <Eddi|zuHause> which kinda implys that these would be globally reachable IPs
22:43:45  <eMJay> Eddi|zuHause: why do you say?
22:44:07  <ln> now what kind of an conversation would this be if the scope of discussion was not changed transparently
22:44:59  <Eddi|zuHause> one that would lead to peace and unity amongst all people
22:46:16  *** Yeggstry is now known as Yeggzzz
22:46:49  <Eddi|zuHause> eMJay: i have no idea what you actually asked there.
22:47:16  <eMJay> why would they be globally reachable IPs?
22:48:08  <Eddi|zuHause> it wouldn't make much sense to call them "open" otherwise
22:48:14  * TrueBrain waves hello
22:49:07  <eMJay> The isp's dns with 10.x.x.x addresses?
22:49:25  <Eddi|zuHause> it's like "hey, i created a totally free and fast internet service, but you can only reach it from my class C private network
22:49:51  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: that is how I offer free webhosting
22:50:43  <TrueBrain> todat AMS-IX passes 512 Gbps, and .. oh yeah, there was a blackout in NIKHEF
22:50:44  <TrueBrain> lol
22:51:39  <Eddi|zuHause> one link down and the other one increases throughput? what a strange coincidence
22:51:58  <TrueBrain> NIKHEF == AMS-IX
22:52:00  <TrueBrain> so no
22:52:31  <TrueBrain> it is just funny the day something reaches an other 'limit', it also is the day something big drops :p
22:53:01  <Eddi|zuHause> then you totally gave too little context to get the joke
22:53:19  <TrueBrain> the context is a newspaper ;)
22:53:21  <TrueBrain> but fair enough
22:53:34  <TrueBrain> I always assume people know the infastructure of AMS-IX :p
22:53:36  <TrueBrain> hehe
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22:55:00  <TrueBrain> so, anything good (OpenTTD) related?
22:55:26  <glx> yes I fixed an old noai bug yesterday :)
22:55:34  <TrueBrain> so I read
22:55:37  <TrueBrain> you missynced ;)
22:55:45  <glx> as always ;)
22:56:01  <TrueBrain> those stupid chunks .. hard to do correct
22:56:05  <TrueBrain> so I don't blame you :p
22:56:08  <TrueBrain> (hehehehhee :p)
22:56:23  <TrueBrain> I wonder how you ever found it .. but okay :p
22:56:44  <Eddi|zuHause> like that kernel update about anonymous proxies... "we lost this feature 5 years ago, but better late than never" or something...
22:57:04  <glx> expected when the version goes from 64 to 69 in one sync
22:57:59  <glx> easy I added debug to print current offset after each SlObject in noai and trunk
22:58:02  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe someone should design a more branch friendly savegame versioning system?
22:58:42  <glx> was not directly related to version, but to how noai fakes loading of old ai
22:58:55  <Rubidium> maybe someone should design a more development friendly time assignment for our devs
22:58:57  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: feel free
22:59:15  <planetmaker> [23:19]	<Eddi|zuHause> <-- muahaha... [german] <-- actually I find that anything but funny :( It's an erorion of the foundations...
22:59:37  *** lobster [~michielbi@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:59:38  <Eddi|zuHause> a what?!?
22:59:39  *** lobster_MB [~michielbr@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:00:04  <Bjarni> Eddi|zuHause: btw now that we talked so much about DNS I completely forgot about your link
23:00:21  <planetmaker> sorry. erosion.
23:00:22  <Bjarni> looks like elderly people can't vote on modern election days
23:00:50  <Eddi|zuHause> mind you, it's in brandenburg, so you probably need to teach these people to use a voting cabin anyway, regardless of paper or computer...
23:01:00  <Sacro> my "replace train" winow is empty
23:01:15  <Sacro> D:
23:01:16  <Sacro> help
23:01:22  <planetmaker> It's 19 years, so they have learnt now. :)
23:01:43  <planetmaker> Mind that, I wouldn't bother to vote using a voting machine either.
23:01:47  <planetmaker> No point then.
23:02:51  <Eddi|zuHause> not even the bundestag could agree on voting machines in the reichstag building, even though they basically rebuilt that from scratch
23:02:57  <Sacro> I think I have a bug in autoreplace
23:03:00  <Sacro> @seen Bjarni
23:03:00  <DorpsGek> Sacro: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 2 minutes and 37 seconds ago: <Bjarni> looks like elderly people can't vote on modern election days
23:03:16  <eMJay> is there a how-to on the wiki for doing graphics?
23:03:20  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't see the point in voting computers
23:03:21  <Sacro> eMJay: yes
23:03:33  <eMJay> Sacro: i tried search, but no joy :S
23:03:47  <glx> eMJay:
23:03:53  <Eddi|zuHause> nobody can properly check for any cheating, because of proprietary components all over the place
23:04:10  <planetmaker> exactly...
23:04:25  <Eddi|zuHause> voting machines must be 100% open source
23:04:31  <planetmaker> even if, it would require sound technical knowledge.
23:04:47  <Sacro> technical sound knowledge
23:04:49  <DaleStan> "Voting should be done on paper"
23:04:59  <planetmaker> A pen and paper ballot can be supervised by the old lady next door.
23:05:00  <Eddi|zuHause> every person eligible for voting must be able to check the system
23:05:23  <eMJay> glx and Sacro, ah wrong wiki :P
23:05:32  <glx> and to trust the system
23:05:51  <DaleStan> eMJay: No, that would be the correct wiki.
23:05:59  <planetmaker> very much so. I know which system I wouldn' trust :)
23:06:15  <Eddi|zuHause> all of them...
23:06:25  <planetmaker> all electronic ones.
23:06:56  <Eddi|zuHause> i would not necessarily trust the paper ones either
23:07:10  <planetmaker> you could verify easily that they work ok.
23:07:22  <eMJay> DaleStan: I meant, i was looking in the wrong wiki
23:07:23  <planetmaker> Just be there before it starts and go through the counting procedure.
23:07:27  <glx> at least you can count paper ones
23:07:34  <eMJay> DaleStan: I was looking in the
23:08:49  <planetmaker> err... well... and stay till after the election and take part in the counting procedure.
23:09:22  <planetmaker> a piece of paper won't play chess with you :P
23:10:03  <planetmaker> has no active electromagnetic emission
23:10:27  <planetmaker> and doesn't fail upon power cut.
23:10:56  <planetmaker> And now I vote for my bed :)
23:11:27  <TrueBrain> your pencil can break!
23:11:40  *** lobstar_MB is now known as lobster_MB
23:11:51  <planetmaker> which gives me two for the price of one!
23:12:06  <TrueBrain> depends on the original size :)
23:12:13  <planetmaker> :)
23:12:34  <glx> here the pencil is only needed to sign the register (and they provide it)
23:12:40  <TrueBrain> maybe someone put a paper under your paper, being able to see your vote
23:12:42  <planetmaker> It's a case where carrying a pocket knife comes in handy :)
23:13:08  <planetmaker> TrueBrain: easy to check :)
23:13:11  <TrueBrain> (why do people car eif others can read their vote? Is it that important that others don't find out what your vote?)
23:13:19  <planetmaker> yes.
23:13:20  <TrueBrain> planetmaker: depends, I can give you a few situations, you won't be able to tell :)
23:13:24  <ben_goodger> TrueBrain: conceivable, yes
23:13:45  <planetmaker> it makes it impossible to buy votes.
23:13:54  <ben_goodger> I can think of situations where I wouldn't want people to know I'd voted for a particular person
23:14:02  <ben_goodger> such as if I voted for mccain
23:14:15  <ben_goodger> I'd instantly feel so dirty that I'd crumble into dust if anyone found out
23:14:18  <TrueBrain> ben_goodger: yeah, you really should make sure nobody finds out about that :)
23:14:33  <ben_goodger> meh
23:14:35  <TrueBrain> but if you have an opinion which you refuse to tell publicly, I suggest not to vote at all :)
23:14:43  <ben_goodger> good idea
23:14:44  <planetmaker> no. why?
23:15:10  <ben_goodger> well, when there's an election in the UK, I will vote --- not that it will matter, the lib dems will win my constituency and very few other constituencies, without my help
23:15:25  <TrueBrain> still, voting feels good :)
23:15:32  <ben_goodger> yes
23:15:35  <planetmaker> yep :)
23:15:38  <TrueBrain> at least you can say you tried :)
23:15:44  <ben_goodger> true
23:15:49  <TrueBrain> and, when they do something stupid: I didn't vote for those people!
23:15:49  <TrueBrain> hehe
23:16:04  <planetmaker> hehe :)
23:16:34  <glx> many people didn't vote for our president (even some who voted for him)
23:16:47  <TrueBrain> then again, that might be a reason to keep your vote private .. I always annoying my friends with it, when they complain about a given person .. then I just say: but YOU voted for him
23:17:23  <DaleStan> <TrueBrain> but if you have an opinion which you refuse to tell publicly, <-- "refuse to tell" isn't the issue. The issue  is "my boss says I will vote for so-and-so if I value my job."
23:17:54  <TrueBrain> DaleStan: fair enough
23:18:08  <Nite_Owl> Need to Feed - Later All
23:18:10  <TrueBrain> but I doubt your boss is trying to figure out what you voted by some advanced sniffers ;)
23:18:16  *** Nite_Owl [] has quit [Quit: Read You Soon]
23:18:21  <planetmaker> exactly that: buying a vote :) vote for me or die :P
23:18:42  <TrueBrain> last week I read that people can even monitor your (physical) keyboard hits ... :s
23:19:09  <planetmaker> nothing new. It uses elecricity. So it emits radiation.
23:19:13  <glx> hacking the webcam?
23:19:26  <TrueBrain> planetmaker: still, proof-of-concept was created
23:19:28  <Rubidium> and each key makes a slightly different sound when pressed
23:19:28  <Bjarni> <Sacro> I think I have a bug in autoreplace <--- I really like when people say that they found a bug and then they shut up :P
23:19:35  <TrueBrain> that it is possible, one thing .. that people do it :p
23:19:40  <planetmaker> even that proof-of-concept is at least a decade old
23:19:42  <TrueBrain> Rubidium / glx: no, by radiation
23:19:55  <Char> test
23:20:01  <glx> fail
23:20:04  <Char> :P
23:20:08  <TrueBrain> planetmaker: well, it was kind of new in several ways .. as they were pretty far away, and the keyboard was both protected and via a wire ..
23:20:22  <glx> hmm I should have use DorpsGek to say that :)
23:20:32  <TrueBrain> glx: yews
23:20:34  <TrueBrain> :)
23:21:06  <planetmaker> TrueBrain: I'm pretty sure I read a couple of years ago that exactly that was done from the house on the other street side. Tracking the keyboard operations and monitor display using directional antennae
23:21:33  <TrueBrain> monitor display? Now that is hard (and kind of unbelievable :p)
23:21:42  <planetmaker> It was CRTs back then :)
23:21:43  <glx> my brother can see mouse wheel on the TV
23:21:44  <TrueBrain> reading a 50Hz changing signal, on a raster of 1000x1000 ...
23:21:58  <planetmaker> yes, but you can do that via lock-in.
23:22:14  <planetmaker> you got the line frequency. It's quite easy. Like TV signals.
23:22:30  <TrueBrain> still, reading that signal from a distance
23:22:33  <TrueBrain> and still reconstruct the image
23:23:05  <planetmaker> I did it in the advanced physics course - with a piece of wire tapping the satellite tv signal.
23:23:10  <planetmaker> a crt has the same signal
23:23:42  <planetmaker> you just need good amplification and and lock-in on the new line signal
23:23:48  <TrueBrain> planetmaker: there is a difference, and a big one for that matter
23:24:00  <planetmaker> not too mcuh
23:24:02  <planetmaker> *much
23:24:05  <glx> planetmaker: you had access to the wire
23:24:08  <TrueBrain> the amplification part I don't see happening for CRT signal ..
23:24:14  <planetmaker> glx: the wire was the antennae.
23:24:37  <planetmaker> the amplification has to be on your side - not crt
23:25:22  <planetmaker> it's an alternating ray of electrons. If it switches monitor side, it's a very clear signal.
23:25:43  <planetmaker> doesn't work anymore in the time of TFTs :)
23:26:19  <planetmaker> it's afterall guided by an AC magnetic field.
23:26:41  <glx> <planetmaker> doesn't work anymore in the time of TFTs :) <-- light guns don't work well either now
23:26:43  <planetmaker> well... no magnetic
23:26:52  <planetmaker> electric
23:26:59  <TrueBrain>
23:29:39  <TrueBrain> planetmaker: I really have no problems believing that getting keyboard activity is easy .. but CRT screens .. I really need to see that with my own eyes :)
23:29:49  <TrueBrain> I can't see a way an antenna can receive 1000x1000 raster
23:30:05  <TrueBrain> or it should be able to read at the speed of the electron-canon ..
23:30:34  <planetmaker> TrueBrain: you know each line termination and each frame termination
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23:30:51  <Aali> hmm, what was the name of that project?
23:31:01  <TrueBrain> Aali: CERN
23:31:07  <planetmaker> the hardest part is to get the actuall brightness which is the intensity of the beam.
23:31:10  <Aali> some guys were making CRT screens transmit AM radio
23:31:21  <TrueBrain> (random question, random answer ;))
23:31:22  <planetmaker> which also emits quite a bit of radiation
23:31:45  <TrueBrain> planetmaker: I would love to see such thing in action :)
23:31:52  <TrueBrain> I really won't believe it until I see it :)
23:32:22  <Aali> ah, tempest
23:32:34  *** Progman [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
23:32:59  <Aali> search for tempest and you'll find all sorts of crazy stuff people have done with CRT monitors
23:33:12  <TrueBrain> well, all I will do now is searching for my bed
23:33:15  <planetmaker>
23:33:16  <TrueBrain> I wish you all a very good night :)
23:33:23  <planetmaker> night TB
23:33:41  <planetmaker> that link's for you, though :)
23:33:46  <TrueBrain> monitoring a CPU .. now that is fun :p
23:36:51  <Sacro> Bjarni: I have nothing in mylist of trains
23:36:55  <Sacro> but some stuff in wagons
23:36:56  <planetmaker> <--- there are NATO standards regarding that... :P
23:37:25  <SmatZ> planetmaker: tl;dr but yeah, I was scared after wating the 1984 movie ... and comparing it with today's reality :)
23:37:58  <planetmaker> SmatZ: a frightening comparison, I think :S
23:39:01  <SmatZ> I wonder what will be the reality in 2043
23:39:01  <TrueBrain> planetmaker: nice arcticle; but clearly it hugely depends on thef act a cable is attached :)
23:39:28  <planetmaker> TrueBrain: to what?
23:39:51  <TrueBrain> to the CRT
23:39:55  <TrueBrain> acting like an antenna
23:39:55  <planetmaker> If you use a wireless keyboard you surely transmit the data directly. That's even easier then.
23:40:05  <planetmaker> or crt. Show me one without.
23:40:20  <TrueBrain> it is not about that; it is about how the signals are received :)
23:40:32  <TrueBrain> as I said, I saw no way to receive a 1000x1000 raster
23:40:41  *** [com]buster [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
23:40:41  <TrueBrain> but signals from a single cable, okay, I can see that working :)
23:40:43  <planetmaker> which also doesn#t use wireless transmission. Of course, the cable may act as antenna :)
23:40:54  <TrueBrain> which makes it wireless ;)
23:40:55  <TrueBrain> hehe
23:40:59  <planetmaker> :)
23:41:07  *** [com]buster [] has joined #openttd
23:41:16  <TrueBrain> anyway, nice article, and you ar eright, reading CRTs should be possible in that case :)
23:41:20  <TrueBrain> Now for real: good night :)
23:41:34  <planetmaker> indeed! For me, too. Good night everyone.
23:41:38  <Aali> TrueBrain: i've seen tempest in action, sure, the "victim" was in text mode, but you could read that shit from a block away
23:41:43  <TrueBrain> (bah, you tempt me to hook up an antenna receiver to my computer :(
23:41:55  <planetmaker> :D
23:42:04  <TrueBrain> glad my latest computer doesn't have a COM port :)
23:42:11  <planetmaker> watch the p0rn of your neighbor :P
23:42:14  <TrueBrain> night :)
23:42:51  *** ln-- [] has joined #openttd
23:42:51  <ln--> # Appears as SCOTTY
23:42:57  *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@] has joined #openttd
23:43:05  <ln> apologies for that, but it's unavoidable
23:44:41  <planetmaker> <--- scary. They tell you your graphics card without ever looking at your computer :O
23:48:31  <planetmaker> bah. Even the reflection of your monitor on the wall is readable...
23:48:45  * planetmaker goes to sleep - probably dreaming of James Bond & co..
23:49:28  <ln> usually females dream of James Bond
23:49:35  <Aali> i'm actually watching the new james bond movie with my dad next weekend
23:49:38  *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
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23:49:54  <planetmaker> I'm the evil counterpart, ln
23:49:55  <Aali> its kind-of the last thing we ever do together
23:50:11  <planetmaker> o_O
23:50:32  <planetmaker> that doesn't sound too well, Aali ...
23:50:57  <Aali> dont worry about it
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23:51:19  <Eddi|zuHause> <TrueBrain> (why do people car eif others can read their vote? Is it that important that others don't find out what your vote?) <- 20 years ago, if you even made a step towards the voting cabin, you'd get "visits" at your home later, trying to convince you to change your vote (from an assumed "no" to a public "yes"). if you dared to publicly vote "no", more serious things could happen.
23:51:21  <treve> hi ally
23:51:28  <treve> any dutch guys?
23:51:53  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not particularly fond of going back to that version of "voting"
23:51:55  <Aali> planetmaker: we agree to disagree about everything :P
23:52:04  <Aali> but thats fine
23:52:12  <Aali> i'm fine, he's fine, we're fine
23:52:18  <planetmaker> :D
23:52:19  <Eddi|zuHause> treve: i have not seen a dutch person ever in my life
23:52:37  <treve> oke
23:53:01  <Bjarni> I have seen a Dutch person
23:53:08  <Bjarni> but he wasn't online
23:53:12  <planetmaker> sounded more dramatic, Aali . That version doesn't sound too different from what I know :)
23:53:17  <treve> i am looking for some1 that can explain how autopilot etc works, or how i can run a scipt on a server, but i am total noob in irc
23:53:23  <Bjarni> in fact I'm not entirely sure if he had an internet connection at all
23:53:31  <treve> and google aint helping me for couple off days
23:53:43  <planetmaker> it's about 3 weeks ago, I saw a Dutch person.
23:53:48  <Aali> planetmaker: yeah, i'm drunk, so just disregard any- and everything i say
23:54:35  <ln>
23:54:36  <Bjarni> Aali: we always do that
23:54:40  <planetmaker> treve: you should ask dih or Brianetta about it - at more reasonable times
23:54:46  <Aali> Bjarni: great
23:55:21  <treve> wtf
23:55:28  <treve> nice job
23:55:36  <planetmaker> loool. Nice one!
23:55:38  <treve> and the guy fits me
23:55:42  <vvv444> He should ask babyottd :)
23:55:57  <Bjarni> he isn't here right now
23:56:04  <ln> and someone said Microsoft doesn't do innovations. :)
23:56:11  <vvv444> @seen babyottd
23:56:13  <DorpsGek> vvv444: babyottd was last seen in #openttd 1 week, 0 days, 3 hours, 4 minutes, and 42 seconds ago: <babyottd> zzz
23:56:24  <vvv444> Probably still sleeping :)
23:56:27  <Eddi|zuHause> ln: that's an almost accurate depiction of myself :p
23:57:02  <Bjarni> ln: your cartoon is poor.... I'm drawn as a woman o_O
23:57:22  <Sacro> ln: that's awesome
23:58:02  <treve> you should make youre own irc version ;
23:58:04  <Eddi|zuHause> the mask guy almost looks like one of the cannibals from monkey island ;)
23:58:13  <treve> i want it always like that
23:58:21  <ln> i can also revela that DorpsGek looks exactly like Eddi|zuHause.
23:58:24  <Eddi|zuHause> i mean, the only civilised persons on monkey island
23:58:25  <ln> *reveal
23:58:32  <treve> messenger program in cartoon style
23:58:41  <Eddi|zuHause> ln: i have already noticed that
23:58:45  <treve> you could even make money with it
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23:59:02  <Bjarni> I can see one problem with this software
23:59:06  <ln> oh crap, automatic updates reboot.
23:59:23  <Bjarni> and it can be shortened down to one word
23:59:25  <Bjarni> .exe
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