Log for #openttd on 28th October 2008:
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00:00:09  <Eddi|zuHause> ln: it's your own fault for booting into windows :p
00:00:22  *** ln-- [] has joined #openttd
00:00:22  <ln--> # Appears as SCOTTY
00:00:30  <ln> Eddi|zuHause: it doesn't work with wine :/
00:01:39  <ln> Bjarni: yes, apart from being .exe and not supporting utf-8, it's quite perfect.
00:04:09  <Bjarni> this guy should make it open source
00:04:11  *** Sacro [~ben@adsl-87-102-39-137.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
00:04:16  <Bjarni> so that real people can benefit from it
00:04:21  <ln> Bjarni: "this guy" is Microsoft.
00:05:14  <Bjarni> I should read it more closely
00:05:16  *** Sacro [~ben@adsl-87-102-39-137.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
00:05:21  <ln> damnit, now i look the same as Bjarni.
00:05:31  <Bjarni> I read "I developed Comic Chat"
00:05:41  <Bjarni> it says "I developed Comic Chat first within Microsoft Research"
00:08:43  <ln> if MS Comic Chat was made the preferred client for this channel, would anyone object?
00:08:49  <Bjarni> I like the download page. All the suitcases are marked with a flag and the name of the language. Except English (called MSChat 25) and Japanese (called 日 (sun), should have been 日本語)
00:08:58  <Sacro> ln: link!
00:09:15  <Bjarni> Sacro:
00:09:20  <Sacro> ooh,
00:09:21  <Bjarni> I guess that is what you are asking for
00:09:47  <Bjarni> <ln> if MS Comic Chat was made the preferred client for this channel, would anyone object? <-- YES
00:09:51  <Sacro> doesn't work in wine :(
00:10:19  <Bjarni> ln already said so
00:12:29  <Sacro> orly?
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00:50:51  <Aali> now thats a good quit message
00:58:47  <ln> *that's
01:06:15  <thingwath> oh, that Comic Chat thing is so international
01:06:37  <Aali> ln: whatever
01:07:20  <ln> Aali: not whatever -- english only.
01:08:27  <thingwath> if I only knew what "Èesky" means.
01:09:57  <ln> or ÐóññêÚé
01:10:03  <Aali> ln: ' is too close to the "enter" key on my keyboard, so i can't really use it unless i concentrate really hard
01:10:24  <thingwath> well, these two means, that author doesn't know about Unicode
01:10:41  <thingwath> but "Slovaški"...
01:10:41  <Bjarni> Aali: are you drunk?
01:10:44  <Bjarni> '''''''''
01:10:45  <Bjarni> :P
01:11:02  <Bjarni> it's just a key just like all the other keys
01:11:09  <Aali> Bjarni: scrollback says yes
01:11:23  <Bjarni> right
01:11:27  <Bjarni> we should ignore you
01:11:32  <Aali> Bjarni: indeed
01:11:46  <ln> thingwath: Å¡ is in Latin-9 but the others aren't.
01:11:49  <Bjarni> I just wonder about one thing
01:11:50  <Sacro> hmmm
01:11:58  <Bjarni> why do Swedes like to get drunk?
01:12:00  <Sacro> what does "x = x++" actually do?
01:12:20  <Aali> Bjarni: because they're so inhibited when sober?
01:12:41  <thingwath> ln: I mean, why Slovaški, what is it?
01:13:00  <Aali> Bjarni: we dont talk or sit next to each other on busses/trams
01:13:07  <Aali> its sad but true
01:13:22  <ln> thingwath: most likely the name of the language.
01:13:33  <thingwath> ln: but in which language :)
01:13:50  <ln> thingwath: slovak?
01:13:53  <Bjarni> you don't sit next to each other in the busses, so you have to be drunk?
01:14:02  <thingwath> No, that would be "Slovensky"
01:14:10  <Bjarni> how about trying not to be drunk and you will realise that people will stop avoiding you
01:14:44  <Aali> Bjarni: no, we have to be drunk to express our true feelings
01:16:07  <Bjarni> you are weird
01:16:25  <Aali> indeed
01:16:34  <thingwath> oh, of course, slovenia, now I understand
01:16:49  <Aali> i dont like it either, but thats just the way it is
01:17:08  <Bjarni> no it's not
01:17:23  <Char> why is it impossible to build signals on bridges?
01:17:32  <Char> or in tunnels?
01:17:34  <Char> i mean
01:17:39  <ln> because.
01:17:42  <Char> seems to be kind of a major problem
01:17:45  <Char> in real games
01:17:59  <Bjarni> Aali: ever considered not being drunk for a change and see what happens?
01:18:22  <Runr> I guess it wouldn't make any sense, Char
01:18:42  <thingwath> oh, it's tuesday
01:18:50  <Bjarni> you know nobody sane would want a drunk guy
01:19:37  <Sacro> hmm, int i = 0; i = i++ gives different results in C and C#
01:20:20  <Sacro> how strange
01:20:29  <thingwath> I think that i = i++; is defined somehow in C#
01:21:10  <thingwath> in C it can't be anything
01:21:12  <Aali> Bjarni: i know, i'm not an alcoholic or anything, I just happen to have the week off
01:21:18  <thingwath> uh, s/can't/can/
01:22:47  <thingwath> Aali: beer ftw. :)
01:23:19  <Aali> thingwath: mistake
01:23:26  <Aali> thingwath: i hate beer
01:23:29  <thingwath> :(
01:23:36  <Bjarni> you drink vodka?
01:23:58  <Aali> gin :(
01:24:13  <thingwath> last week, I spent more on beer than food
01:24:17  <Bjarni> you know that every time you drink, you affect your brain
01:24:28  <thingwath> (but beer IS food, so it doesn't matter anyway)
01:24:35  <Aali> i do have vodka, but i'm not drinking that shit
01:24:41  *** lobstar is now known as lobster
01:24:51  <Bjarni> every time you get drunk and sober, you lower the brain's resistance against that scenario
01:25:12  <Sacro> Bjarni: you know every time you breath you affect your brain
01:25:24  <Bjarni> yeah
01:25:37  <Bjarni> without breathing the brain will suffer from lack of oxygen
01:25:52  <Aali> breathe*
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01:26:49  <thingwath> it won't suffer without alcohol?
01:27:31  <Bjarni> when you drink alcohol it slows down your brain
01:28:03  <Bjarni> the body tries to compensate by releasing chemicals to make the brain more active and less chemicals to slow down the brain
01:28:30  <Bjarni> once the alcohol is gone again, those chemicals harm the brain until the balance is corrected once again
01:28:51  <Aali> Bjarni: do you ever drink?
01:29:01  <Bjarni> the difference is that the last time the brain is out of balance, it's too active and it's actually hurting it
01:29:39  <thingwath> ok :)
01:29:50  <Bjarni> eventually it can't take it anymore and the person becomes an alcoholic to avoid the harmful "getting sober" period
01:30:12  <Bjarni> <Aali> Bjarni: do you ever drink? <-- isn't that besides the point?
01:30:23  <thingwath> Well, I'm not alcoholic yet.
01:30:27  <Aali> i'm just asking
01:30:57  <Bjarni> if I told you that you shouldn't swim in icy water, would you ignore this statement if I decided to take a swim?
01:31:15  <welshdragon> i would
01:31:23  <Bjarni> well... I don't drink
01:31:28  <Bjarni> I don't like the taste
01:31:41  <Aali> i wouldn't swim in icy water, can't stand the cold
01:31:50  <thingwath> ethanol has some taste?
01:31:54  <welshdragon> i drink, but only vodka stuff
01:32:01  <welshdragon> i don't like lager
01:32:20  <Aali> Bjarni: have you ever been drunk?
01:32:28  <welshdragon> and even then, i only have 4 units
01:33:38  <Bjarni> <Aali> Bjarni: have you ever been drunk? <-- isn't that besides the point?
01:33:57  <ben_goodger> what the hell is going on?
01:34:00  <Aali> Bjarni: what point are you trying to make here?
01:34:28  <Bjarni> telling the effects of being drunk
01:35:02  <thingwath> I think we know them, unfortunately.
01:35:11  <Aali> Bjarni: I'm not saying you should drink, i know a lot of people who dont drink out of principle, and i respect them
01:35:43  <ben_goodger> damn straight
01:35:45  * welshdragon scuttles off
01:36:21  <Bjarni> so if I don't drink out of principle, it's ok, but it's weird that I don't drink because I don't like the taste?
01:36:30  <Char> watching a working train system can be pretty relaxing :)
01:36:36  <Char> however, i need some sleep.
01:36:45  <Bjarni> working train system?
01:36:46  <Bjarni> where?
01:36:54  <thingwath> I would like to see it, too.
01:38:29  <ben_goodger> switzerland perhaps?
01:38:37  <Char> like
01:38:41  <Char> ingame ;)
01:38:50  <Char> but the swiss railway system is indeed pretty good
01:38:57  <Aali> Bjarni: i really dont care why you dont drink, i just hope this wont be problem in the future :P
01:39:37  <Bjarni> I just told you that your brain can't deal with getting sober after drinking
01:40:14  <thingwath> my ingame train system has collapsed, again, and I don't know how to make working one
01:40:28  <Aali> i'm pretty good at that though, never get hungover
01:40:54  <Bjarni> I'm not talking about a hangover
01:40:56  <Char> thingwath: what did it collapse of?
01:41:07  <Char> overload
01:41:08  <Char> ?
01:41:11  <thingwath> yes.
01:41:19  <Char> and breakdowns? :P
01:41:32  <thingwath> thousands of people at each station...
01:41:39  <Char> well
01:41:42  <Char> build more trains :P
01:42:05  <Char> use massive feeder stations :P
01:42:11  <thingwath> I do.
01:42:17  <Char> hmmm
01:42:31  <Char> use multi-line mainline
01:42:34  <thingwath> but I play with cargodest
01:42:42  <Char> whats that?
01:42:48  <Aali> Bjarni: then what are you talking about? I say its everyone's right to get hammered every now and then
01:43:10  <Bjarni> I never denied that
01:43:25  <Bjarni> I just stated that it's a really bad idea
01:43:58  <Bjarni> because the brain remembers every time you do it and eventually it gives in
01:44:12  <Bjarni> and that's not nice if it happens
01:44:46  <Aali> and i kind-of agree with you, its not a good idea, but sometimes its just what you need to get back on your feet
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01:44:55  <thingwath> Char:
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01:45:06  <Bjarni> ?
01:45:07  <thingwath> the best thing ever (maybe after YAPP)
01:45:20  <Bjarni> you are saying that you do better if you get drunk?
01:45:23  <Aali> alcoholism is not cool in any way, but if you can control it, i say go for it
01:45:36  <Bjarni> you missed my point....
01:45:53  <Bjarni> once the brain gives in then you can't control it
01:46:15  <thingwath> Bjarni: alternatives?
01:46:17  <Bjarni> you can have full control until you get drunk one time too many and then you will loose everything
01:46:36  <Bjarni> <thingwath> Bjarni: alternatives? <-- ensure that you don't get drunk
01:46:42  <Bjarni> at least not really drunk
01:46:53  <Aali> Bjarni: but thats just not true
01:47:34  <Char> wow
01:47:39  <Char> cargodest seems like fun
01:47:43  <Bjarni> I'm not going to argue with a drunk about health issues about drinking
01:47:45  <Aali> sure i dont ever really lose control, but friends of mine do, and they still come out the other end without "losing everything"
01:47:48  <Char> will have to look into that
01:47:56  <Char> but for now, sleep is more important
01:47:57  <Char> so....
01:47:59  <Char> cu
01:48:03  <thingwath> Char: well, fun, mostly it's so hopeless sight :/
01:48:50  <Bjarni> Aali: you still don't get what I'm talking about. Say your brain has 1000 HP. Every time you drink it will lose some. Eventually it will reach 0 and your brain snaps
01:49:03  <Bjarni> how long will it take?... nobody can tell
01:49:37  <Bjarni> will it to people who are drinking heavily for a year or two... most likely not as this is a long term effect
01:49:49  <SmatZ> everytime you breath your brain loses HP
01:50:06  <SmatZ> but sometimes, new neural connections are made
01:50:10  <Bjarni> why do I have the feeling that you guys don't believe me?
01:50:16  <thingwath> We do.
01:50:27  <SmatZ> chain is as strong as its weakest part... and drinking kills the weakest parts ;-)
01:50:32  <thingwath> We just can't help ourselves. Have to drink. Drink.
01:50:45  <SmatZ> hehe
01:50:54  <Bjarni> <SmatZ> but sometimes, new neural connections are made <-- I'm not talking about neural connections. I'm talking about how the brain deals with chances of chemicals in the blood to control brain activity
01:50:57  <thingwath> And last beer is gone :(
01:51:18  <SmatZ> :-)
01:51:33  <SmatZ> Bjarni: I believe you, I am just not taking this discussion serious :)
01:51:51  <Bjarni> you have a point
01:51:56  <Aali> Bjarni: ooh, openttd reference, i like that :P, but yes, i do believe drinking is associated with hazards, but there's also alot of good things that can come out of it (responsible drinking, that is)
01:52:16  <thingwath> good things that can come out of drinking?
01:52:26  <Bjarni> responsible drinking will not make people drunk :P
01:53:05  <SmatZ> mankind has always abused drugs ... and we haven't died out yet
01:53:10  <SmatZ> :)
01:53:13  <Bjarni> but I guess my time will be better spent sleeping than arguing with some random drunk guy on the internet
01:53:25  <Bjarni> SmatZ: we will
01:53:30  <thingwath> drunk people cannot type
01:53:39  <Aali> thingwath: people tend to open up and share their innermost feelings when drunk
01:53:42  <SmatZ> Bjarni: because of alcohol / drugs?
01:53:48  <Bjarni> thingwath: yeah... Aali stopped making sense ages ago :P
01:53:55  <thingwath> Aali: and that is good thing? :D
01:53:57  <SmatZ> nah... because of stupid ideas of mighty people
01:54:07  <Aali> thingwath: of course it is
01:54:19  <Bjarni> SmatZ: I didn't say that. I said that we will be extinct eventually
01:54:33  <Bjarni> it depends on stuff like how many nuclear powerplants we build
01:55:07  <SmatZ> why nuclear powerplants?
01:55:10  <Sacro> ooh
01:55:14  <Aali> i have been really drunk since that last gin&tonic went down and i can still type
01:55:18  <Bjarni> they are radioactive
01:55:24  <SmatZ> so are you
01:55:29  <Sacro> uranium -> nuclear pp -> waste -> towns
01:55:41  <Bjarni> if too much leak, then we will not be humans anymore
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01:56:06  <Bjarni> and right now a whole lot of new nuclear powerplants are being build
01:56:07  <SmatZ> well, yeah
01:56:16  <Bjarni> however nobody knows what to do with the radioactive waste
01:56:41  <thingwath> we will always be humans, maybe just not the same ones as we were yesterday
01:56:53  <SmatZ> I want to have many children, so my clan has chance to survive any nuclear war and similiar possible situations :)
01:57:04  <Sacro> Bjarni: find a country we don't like to offload it to
01:57:08  <Sacro> america or something
01:57:12  <SmatZ> but it's hard to find a girl who would like to have many children for this purpose :)
01:57:31  <Aali> SmatZ: you're crazy
01:57:48  <SmatZ> Aali: yeah, they say so
01:57:54  <Bjarni> SmatZ: you should tell that it's for a different purpose
01:58:13  <Bjarni> like getting more votes for your future political party
01:58:19  <Bjarni> :P
01:58:21  <SmatZ> hehehe
01:58:35  <SmatZ> or have many visitors by our graves when we are dead :-P
01:59:04  <SmatZ> mm may I should try to donor sperm...
01:59:26  <SmatZ> well ... better go to bed, nn all :)
01:59:28  <Bjarni> now if you get 6 children and each of those get 6 children, then you will get a whole lot of grandchildren
01:59:48  <Bjarni> <SmatZ> well ... better go to bed, nn all :) <-- that's a good plan too.... if it contains a girl
01:59:49  <thingwath> I want a statue!
02:00:02  <Bjarni> otherwise it's kind of like not working for your plan :P
02:01:06  <thingwath> it's long-term strategy, of course
02:01:27  <SmatZ> Bjarni: hehe :-) no, there isn't a girl nearby
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02:05:00  <Bjarni> ok, time for bed
02:05:01  <Bjarni> wait
02:05:11  <Bjarni> a few hours past time for bed :P
02:05:19  <Bjarni> goodnight (what's left of it anyway)
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07:18:32  <dih> oi
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07:40:57  <Celestar> \o
07:43:11  <dih> /
07:43:14  <dih> gnah
07:43:19  <dih> i always manage to muck it up
07:43:28  <dih> \o
07:43:32  <dih>  /
07:43:35  <dih> /\
07:43:42  <dih> :P
07:43:49  <dih> morning Celestar
07:44:23  <dih> either that stick-man is calling a taxi - or desperately needs the bathroom (and is calling a taxi on top of that)
07:57:16  *** Yeggzzz is now known as Yeggs-work
07:59:48  <petern> or it's a rapper pose
08:01:25  <Celestar> /nfs/home: Input/Output error
08:01:25  <dih> lol
08:01:26  <Celestar> :o
08:01:38  *** [com]buster [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
08:01:58  <dih> Celestar: may i quote you?
08:02:02  <dih> "Now that's IO"
08:02:03  <dih> :-D
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08:04:39  <Celestar> hahaha
08:04:44  <Celestar> where are our admins ...
08:04:48  <Celestar> not here yet
08:04:56  * Celestar goes fixing
08:05:40  <dih> hehe
08:08:26  * Celestar sighs "Why am I always stuck with other people's work?"
08:12:13  <Celestar> oh man
08:12:18  <Celestar> Bird and Fortune just rock
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08:17:50  <dih> :-)
08:21:29  <rortom> hi
08:25:08  <dih> "new game starting if anybody wants to join"
08:25:10  * dih leaves
08:25:13  <dih> :-P
08:25:17  <dih> hello rortom
08:25:37  <dih> lets have a wee guess - who was i immitating right there?
08:26:00  <rortom> :|
08:26:08  <rortom> and i thought yorick was bad :|
08:26:27  <dih> well - you managed to get close to his state too :-D
08:26:30  <dih> nah
08:26:38  <dih> t'was just a spaming :-P
08:27:29  <rortom> :|
08:27:45  <rortom> i will never get to his "state"
08:30:24  <rortom> mh
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08:30:40  <rortom> is there a server management script thing?
08:31:03  <Celestar> hm?
08:31:05  <Celestar> autopilot?
08:31:34  <planetmaker> ap+ is pretty advanced. And there's going to be a web config tool which works soon again afaik
08:32:00  <Celestar> really? :o
08:32:15  <dih> Celestar: ap+ is a dereviate of autopilot
08:32:19  <planetmaker> I think Kommer is working on it.
08:32:31  <dih> yep
08:32:44  <dih> rortom: what do you want to do?
08:32:57  <planetmaker> ^^ that's the first question which needs answering :)
08:33:26  <dih> hehe
08:33:28  <rortom> a web config tool where you upload savegames to start games
08:33:38  <dih> hehe
08:33:50  <dih> the webconfig tool does not start the game
08:34:01  <dih> autopilot does not allow you to upload saves
08:34:35  <planetmaker> hehe. A whole php gui for Openttd servers would be awesome :)
08:34:58  <dih> there is a python one
08:35:01  <dih> ask SpComb
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08:35:32  <rortom> uhm. work waiting, laters
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08:35:40  <vvv444> hi all.
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08:36:26  <vvv444> Question: How many of you use unnamed vehicle groups?
08:36:36  <Celestar> unnamed?
08:36:48  <vvv444> With default names "Group N'
08:36:50  <planetmaker> if I use groups, I name them.
08:36:54  <Celestar> me too
08:37:03  <Celestar> otherwise I think their usability is limited
08:37:06  <vvv444> Just though it should ask for name on creation.
08:37:14  <planetmaker> no
08:37:22  <Celestar> like "Atown to Bvillage local" or "C to D superexpress"
08:37:36  <vvv444> planetmaker: Why not?
08:37:39  <planetmaker> I hate computers who want to think for me and pretend to know better when I have to do something
08:37:53  <planetmaker> I can rename groups already now.
08:37:57  <planetmaker> without effort
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08:39:58  <vvv444> planetmaker: My point is that if 95% of TTD users always rename the group after creation, maybe we can save them the effort of click "create" button, go select the group and click "rename" button by just displaying rename dialog on create. The dialog can already have default name and the remaining 5% will just have press OK.
08:40:13  <vvv444> It's just UI usability.
08:40:24  <dih> vvv444: not everybody names them the same way
08:40:25  <vvv444> I'm I wrong?
08:40:53  <dih> you name your groups with Town A to Town B
08:41:00  <dih> others name their groups after the cargo type
08:41:04  <dih> some after stations
08:41:08  <dih> ...
08:41:29  <dih> some people might colour their trains and name the groups after the colour
08:41:32  <vvv444> dih: So? You mean you don't yet kno the name on creation?
08:41:42  <dih> exactly
08:41:46  <dih> that is up to the one playing
08:42:08  <vvv444> Hmmm, the question is how many people do so and how many otherwise...
08:42:18  <vvv444> Do tt-forums have polls?
08:42:19  <planetmaker> vvv444: a default name is already now given.
08:42:28  <planetmaker> tt-forums have polls.
08:42:35  <dih> if you want to go by statistics, you could go as far as to say "most people on the net call themselvs something with jack - so why not make the default multiplayer name Jack instead of Player?"
08:43:03  <planetmaker> actually... I wouldn't put too much effort in these groups... rather a new ordering scheme :) which combines groups and orders :)
08:43:03  <dih> vvv444: pols dont mean they have an effect on the source code ;-)
08:44:08  <vvv444> LOL. I didn't propose changing default names. But I think you should go by ststistic on UI issues. That's what people want :)
08:44:10  <planetmaker> there's some thread where Brianetta made a nice proposal one restructuring the whole thing to something usefull. Which allows hirachical lists
08:44:33  <vvv444> planetmaker: I
08:44:39  <vvv444> 'll look at it.
08:44:42  <vvv444> Thanks
08:44:57  <planetmaker> np :)
08:45:24  <planetmaker> but I grant that proposal little chance on becoming reality any time soon... so far it's only vapour ware. :D
08:46:06  <dih> vvv444: what people want is not always what the devs want
08:46:16  <dih> and the people dont always have an understanding for the code
08:46:21  <dih> nor the direction the game is taking
08:46:47  <dih> if it were purely what people wanted, you would have a crap load of mess
08:47:08  <Gekz> "I want more dong pictures"
08:47:13  <Gekz> "put them in ttd NOW"
08:47:25  <dih> "aye - will do sir"
08:47:54  <vvv444> planetmaker: You mean the proposal of Brianneta is big and hard to implement?
08:47:55  <Gekz> "while you're there, bend over?
08:48:04  <Gekz> lol @ big and hard
08:48:08  <dih> "yes, sir"
08:48:18  * dih lol's at big and hard
08:48:34  <dih> your a little kid in puberty!
08:48:37  <dih> my word
08:48:40  <dih> what a pitty
08:48:41  <planetmaker> vvv444: it's big. No idea about how hard, but definitely some work. And there's no person who even tried to look at it from an implementation side.
08:49:04  * dih remembers all the 'war' proposals in the forums
08:49:40  <Gekz> war?
08:49:42  <Gekz> lol
08:49:42  <Gekz> wtf
08:49:44  <planetmaker> urgs. Let's make war on war thems. There are many places you can play or have war.
08:49:53  <dih> yep
08:49:59  <Gekz> drive a truck at someone
08:50:03  <Gekz> and collect ?
08:50:14  <Gekz> That makes no sense.
08:50:20  <dih> no - war influencing the economy
08:50:26  <dih> as a disaster
08:50:35  <Gekz> wtf?
08:50:39  <Gekz> that's heavy shit.
08:50:47  <dih> that Gekz that would be AlKaidaTTD
08:50:56  <Gekz> haha
08:51:10  <Gekz> "terrorists have killed Americans in your Oil Refineries"
08:51:27  <Gekz> "Terrorists have burnt down your oil derricks"
08:51:28  <Gekz> "
08:51:35  <dih> take bombs from trainee camp to  big town
08:51:49  <dih> town now accepts bombs
08:51:50  <dih> :-D
08:52:01  <Rubidium> the prices for oil have (in|de)creased dramatically
08:52:43  <dih> you dont need a demolish tool anymore
08:52:45  <vvv444> planetmaker: Unfortunatelly the codebase is in quite a mess state (IMHO), that implementing things is painful. I've many years programming experience, but after trying implementing a simple feature I understood that it takes me x10 time than it should only because the things aren't built properly and my basic instinct drives me to rewriting fair part of it :( Still it works well and this quite surprises me.
08:53:20  <dih> vvv444 you are an idiot
08:53:30  <vvv444> dih: Thank you
08:53:32  <dih> sorry for the words "are an"
08:53:37  <planetmaker> vvv444: a mess looks different to me. But surely the code is not everywhere homogineous.
08:53:59  <dih> vvv444: you are welcome
08:53:59  <Rubidium> vvv444: then you don't have experience with evolved applications
08:54:01  <dih> anytime again
08:54:10  <planetmaker> but you cannot expect that for a code which evolved over 3 or four years.
08:54:16  <Celestar> er..
08:54:20  <vvv444> No of course I seen worse.
08:54:24  <Celestar> you need to bear in mind where this code STARTED
08:54:35  <Celestar> I wonder which of you have seen r1 of the OLD repo
08:54:40  <Celestar> ;)
08:54:44  <planetmaker> :)
08:54:52  <vvv444> I don't blame you. I understand perfectly well what condition it is in.
08:55:11  <vvv444> On contrary, I'm amused how you brought it to work so well!
08:55:22  <planetmaker> I actually doubt that there are many projects with a similar history where the code is in better shape.
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08:56:17  <vvv444> Well, I haven't looked so deep in Mozilla, gcc, etc. But Linux kernel was better :)
08:56:32  <dih> vvv444: if you want to rewrite parts then do so and post it at
08:57:38  <planetmaker> vvv444: and indeed a combination of orders and groups might be an incentive to revise things there a bit more thoroughly.
08:58:26  <planetmaker> but I figure for any single person it is nearly impossible to understand all trip wires and "why-this-way" in the code of a project of this size
08:58:28  <vvv444> dih: I would, but I have 1/2 time job and full time university. Besides, So big changes won't be accepted especially from someone new as myself.
08:58:54  <planetmaker> vvv444: the PBS patch was written by a basically new person.
08:58:56  <Rubidium> ofcourse, with the "manpower" the kernel has they've got more time and such
08:59:14  <vvv444> planetmaker: It's not SO big. 200k lines, right?
08:59:20  <planetmaker> or do I err with PBS, Rubidium ?
08:59:38  <planetmaker> don't know. But it was no small one :)
09:00:48  <dih> vvv444: your time excuse is really bad
09:00:56  <dih> most devs here have full time jobs, or study
09:01:01  <dih> some have families to take care of
09:01:19  <planetmaker> some have even both.
09:01:20  <dih> yet still they always manage to find a moment here or there to do their stuff, and to be honest, i am really impressed by that
09:01:39  <vvv444> dih: As I said, so am I :)
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09:02:12  <Wolf01> hello
09:02:20  <vvv444> Well, got to go, cya (evil work)
09:03:18  <dih> hello Wolf01
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09:04:47  <petern> hmm, can thunderbird be told to mark things as deleted, instead of doing it's stupid moving-to-trash bollocks?
09:05:01  <petern> Oh, yes it can :D
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09:09:29  <Celestar> back
09:16:14  <dih>
09:16:18  <dih> Celestar: ^
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09:23:22  <TrueBrain> hello girls
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09:24:14  <Rubidium> Hello La Stout ;)
09:26:19  <Rubidium> again heading out for work?
09:26:32  <TrueBrain> nope :):)
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09:32:03  <dih> hello TrueBrain
09:32:04  <dih> :-)
09:43:19  <TrueBrain> bah, bah, I really miss having 2 screens ... working on one is so annoying :(
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09:55:56  <blathijs> TrueBrain: Get a better window manager
09:55:57  <blathijs> :-p
09:57:11  <TrueBrain> blathijs: suggestions?
09:57:36  <blathijs> wmii?
09:57:38  <planetmaker> kde or macosX :)
09:57:49  <Celestar> :o
09:58:05  <Celestar> LH will apparently fly the first airplane with a geared turbofan in 2013
09:58:06  <blathijs> TrueBrain: I'm rather fond of tiling window managers myself (wmii, ion, ratpoison, xmonad)
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09:58:49  <planetmaker> what the heck is a geared turbofan and what is its advantage over a usual jet engine (which is turbofan afaik - please correct, if not)
09:59:57  <Celestar> planetmaker: it's a normal jet engine where the RPM ratio between the fan (the big blower you see) and its turbine is not 1:1. It's advantage is about a 15%-20% reduction in fuel burn (and thus CO2) emmissions and a 75% (20dB(A)) reduction in noise.
10:00:14  <planetmaker> ah, cool :)
10:00:45  <planetmaker> so... why not use earlier?
10:00:45  <Celestar> these 20% reduction gets CO2 per passenger-kilometer below 100g
10:00:59  <Celestar> (compared to about 200 for a normal car)
10:01:02  <planetmaker> fuel should be one of the main cost drivers next to personel
10:01:17  <planetmaker> 200 for a car is a lot - considering new cars.
10:01:24  <Celestar> planetmaker: on trips < 2000km, it's not. At least not for airlines.
10:01:31  <Celestar> 200 for a car is not a lot in REAL driving conditions.
10:01:40  <planetmaker> :P
10:01:43  <Celestar> I average (24 months) about 165g/km.
10:01:49  <Celestar> and it's a small diesel car
10:02:04  <Celestar> on the highway, I average more to 175g/km
10:02:10  <Celestar> at least on the longer trips
10:02:11  <planetmaker> hm... ok :)
10:02:20  <Celestar> well small .. average-sized.
10:02:28  <TrueBrain> blathijs: some look nice .. still not avoid my problem, of not being able to both have IRC + Mail + MSN + kdevelop open :p
10:02:36  <TrueBrain> damn, I really need 2x 22" widescreen :p
10:02:40  <planetmaker> I'd assume highway is most easy on it - if you don't drive on German highways with no speed limit :)
10:02:58  <Celestar> planetmaker: on longer trips, I go around 140-150km/h.
10:03:07  <planetmaker> sounds reasonable :)
10:03:20  <Celestar> on shorter trips (daily commpute) its around 80-90km/h on the highway (that's about the max you get when you're lucky)
10:03:25  <planetmaker> but not on Dutch highways... or French :P
10:04:27  <planetmaker> hehe... I remember an occasion on a French highway. We were overtaken by a fast sports car. At the next toll booth, he had a longer and probably much more expensive stop than we :D
10:04:44  <Celestar> but below 100g/km it pretty good. Another such step and they're on par with high-speed trains (which, in Germany are around 70-80g/Pkm)
10:05:07  <blathijs> TrueBrain: The IRC and MSN problem is easily reduced by using bitlbee
10:05:13  <planetmaker> sounds good. Still leaving the place of the emissions one of the critical points, though :)
10:05:20  <TrueBrain> blathijs:  I really like GUI, if you dodn't know that by now ;)
10:05:23  <planetmaker> not for CO2 obviously.
10:05:36  <TrueBrain> I like to see all names you can give yourself in MSN .. bitlbee doesn't allow me :(
10:05:48  <blathijs> TrueBrain: Yeah, just use your GUI IRC client for msn using bitlbee :-)
10:06:06  <blathijs> TrueBrain: Bitlbee does show name changes, right?
10:06:22  <TrueBrain> blathijs: and therefor you miss 90% of the name changes on MSN :)
10:06:32  <TrueBrain> (not their 'real' name, but the 'sub' name
10:06:42  <TrueBrain> and images of people .... :p
10:06:48  <blathijs> useless stuff :-p
10:07:09  <TrueBrain> Not for me :)
10:07:18  <Celestar> planetmaker: yeah, that remains a problem, especially the Noxes. Hence, the geared turbofan engine reduces those emmisions by more than 50% compare to aircraft in service today.
10:07:26  <Celestar> planetmaker: not enough, but a step in the right direction.
10:07:28  <TrueBrain> Thunderbird really sucks ... Outlook is a so much better mail client (/me saying that .. scary)
10:07:48  <Celestar> yeah, only it misses support for a real OS
10:07:56  <planetmaker> Engineering and science can mostly only do steps :)
10:08:05  <Celestar> yeah
10:08:13  <planetmaker> You cannot jump 5 miles - but you can easily cover them with smaller steps.
10:08:42  <Celestar> however, the environment problems we have on Earth these days will be solved by science and engineering, and not by politicians.
10:09:24  *** tokai [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
10:10:37  <Celestar> gotta love wikipedia at times..
10:10:41  <Celestar> "It contains roughly (by molar content/volume) 78.08% nitrogen, 20.95% oxygen, 0.93% argon, 0.038% carbon dioxide, trace amounts of other gases, and a variable amount (average around 1%) of water vapor. This mixture of gases is commonly known as air."
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10:12:20  * Rubidium wonders what's roughly when it has 4 significant digits ;)
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10:15:03  <Celestar> yeah
10:15:04  <Celestar> me too
10:15:09  <planetmaker> depends upon what accuracy you're used to. Ask the people with atomic clocks ;)
10:15:20  <Celestar> extents before:4778 after:5      ino=2147551851
10:15:21  <Celestar> ino=2147551852
10:15:24  <Celestar> :o
10:15:29  <planetmaker> measurement errors of the order of 10^-16 are high in those cases.
10:16:05  <planetmaker> also GPS needs better accuracy for your tomtom.
10:16:14  <Celestar> yeah
10:16:19  <Rubidium> so the measurement error is roughly 10^-16, not 1.02432421344513451234*10^-16
10:16:32  <planetmaker> Rubidium: relative units :)
10:16:37  <planetmaker> x / Delta x
10:16:46  <planetmaker> err... vice versa.
10:16:53  <Celestar> but for your tomtom, the main error source is the ionospheric error, since I don't think tomtoms are dual-frequency.
10:17:22  <planetmaker> Probably. But I guess they might have some by now.
10:17:29  <Celestar> what for?
10:17:31  <planetmaker> But they're not military grade :)
10:17:37  <planetmaker> accuracy :P
10:17:55  <Celestar> there is no difference between military grade and civillian GPS receivers as of now.
10:18:07  <planetmaker> true
10:18:08  <Celestar> the military frequency is currently not encrypted and can be used by everyone.
10:18:27  <planetmaker> but I guess military grade has a decryption device :P
10:18:34  <planetmaker> but that's beside the point actually :)
10:18:36  <Celestar> and with any decent dual-frequency receiver you can get about a 4-m accuracy (95%)
10:19:11  <planetmaker> 4m isn't that overwhelmingly good, is it?
10:19:32  <planetmaker> but most accuracy can be gained by using two antennae within a car.
10:19:41  <Celestar> well, it's pretty impressive considering that your lighthouses are 20000km away.
10:19:46  <planetmaker> Gets you rid of interferences due to reflections and stuff like that
10:19:56  <Celestar> GPSIII might get that down to about 1.5m (95%)
10:20:05  <Celestar> as might Galileo .. in 2032.
10:20:18  <planetmaker> :O 2032 is now the due date? Shit...
10:20:22  <Celestar> not really
10:20:26  <Celestar> the due date is 2014 afaik
10:20:38  <Celestar> which translates into 2032 for everything the EU is involved in :P
10:20:47  <planetmaker> better :) I need to discuss that soon when we have our "Stollen-Back-Session" :)
10:21:03  <Celestar> using RTK/GPS, we got about 20mm real-time accuracy.
10:21:14  <planetmaker> that's pretty good :)
10:21:23  <Celestar> using off-the-shelf parts
10:21:31  <TrueBrain> I also know up to 1cm where I am
10:21:36  <TrueBrain> behind my computer, currently
10:21:38  <Celestar> at 10km from the base, this went up to around 35mm.
10:21:47  <planetmaker> in ESA jargon also called COTS - which sounds pretty bad in German language :D
10:21:56  <TrueBrain> planetmaker: also in dutch ;)
10:22:03  <planetmaker> :P
10:22:04  <Celestar> planetmaker: NASA also has COTS which means something completely different there.
10:22:13  <Celestar> "Commercial Orbital Transportation Systems"
10:22:13  <planetmaker> comercially off the shelf?
10:22:17  <planetmaker> eh :)
10:22:59  <Celestar> that's a program where NASA will likely be purchasing launch services off privately funded companies to bring supplies, experiments and possibly people to the ISS from 2010/2011.
10:23:42  <planetmaker> :) I'm curious as of what and whether they really do that.
10:23:45  <Celestar> reducing cost to bring stuff up to the station by a factor of 10 compared to the shuttle.
10:23:52  <Celestar> planetmaker: in a year, we'll know.
10:24:04  <planetmaker> but these flight opportunities are quite interesting - also for me :D
10:24:25  <Celestar> yeah, but a factor of 10 still means about 5 million bucks for a flight :P
10:24:26  <planetmaker> reducing experimental costs by several orders of magnitude.
10:24:40  <planetmaker> Celestar: that's nothing. A sounding rocket costs more.
10:24:48  <Celestar> currently, the average orbital experiment is around 10 million.
10:24:55  <Celestar> planetmaker: it does?
10:25:08  <planetmaker> Yes. 2 ... 20 million depending upon type.
10:25:09  <Celestar> planetmaker: you get get ORBITAL launches for < 10million bucks.
10:25:17  <Celestar> (sub-ton)
10:25:54  <Celestar> < 7 million EUR actually.
10:26:06  <planetmaker> well...  that's about the same price, is it :)
10:26:16  <Celestar> yeah
10:26:30  <planetmaker> and a 10 minute sounding rocket is nearly orbital. Just add a bit more fuel and you're there.
10:26:42  <Celestar> currently prices is  million for 420kg LEO and  million for 1000kg LEO.
10:26:48  <planetmaker> you got something like 200km altitude.
10:26:59  <Celestar> but not nearly 8km/sec
10:27:07  <planetmaker> don't ask me for payload weight.
10:27:15  <Celestar> a ton is a shitload :P
10:27:24  <planetmaker> I guess it's higher as mostly sounding rockes house more than one experiment.
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10:28:08  <Celestar> heh. Virgin Galactic will give your expermient and yourself a 5 minute suborbital flight for about 200.000 bucks.
10:28:35  <planetmaker> indeed a very interesting offer. Once it really comes to that we'll jump to it.
10:29:02  <Celestar> I just hope their damn "spaceship" has mountings to add scientific payload.
10:29:10  <ccfreak2k> It ought to get your motors running.
10:29:26  <planetmaker> substitute a person by payload. That's fine. Things are already discussed in that respect :)
10:29:32  <Celestar> :D
10:29:35  <ccfreak2k> It might even lift your spirits.
10:29:46  <Celestar> I want one of those flights :(
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10:30:01  <dih> my experiment is to take yorick and throw him out when we're up there - who's gonna join in the 200K?
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10:30:18  <Celestar> dih: he WILL re-enter, you know :P
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10:30:27  <dih> he will not - no way!
10:30:36  <dih> i have an ever better experiment
10:30:43  <ccfreak2k> What doesn't vaporize will.
10:30:44  <planetmaker> [11:29]	<Celestar>	I want one of those flights :( <-- me too :)
10:30:48  <Celestar> even HE can't fart badly enough to propel him to escape velocity.
10:30:52  <dih> tie him to the roters of a helicopter :-D
10:30:59  <dih> of tie him underneath the rocket
10:31:06  <dih> but that is too little joy
10:31:10  <dih> only lasts about a second
10:31:10  <Rubidium> Celestar: but... to quote a famous person: "that's toast"
10:31:14  <Celestar> hah
10:31:22  <planetmaker> lunch time. CU later guys :)
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10:31:54  <dih> Rubidium: we found a trigger - "toast" makes pm want food!
10:34:08  <TrueBrain> blathijs: I fail to run 'xmonad' ... it doesn't boot or gives an error :(
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10:39:40  <blathijs> ~hmm, weird
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10:42:31  <TrueBrain> well, what ever .. debian lenny package is broken, stupid debian
10:42:36  <TrueBrain> reminds me to install Gentoo soon
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10:43:27  <blathijs> TrueBrain: Didn't try xmonad myself yet, it's still on the list :-)
10:44:20  <TrueBrain> hehe
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11:50:59  <TrueBrain> lalalalala
11:51:24  <SpComb> do re mi fa so la te do
11:51:41  <TrueBrain> off key
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11:52:01  <SpComb> rather
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12:08:47  <Tekky> I have a compilation problem of the ICU package on Windows: The OpenTTD project file seems to assume that ICU is a static library called libicu.lib, but when I compile ICU, it produces several DLLs, none of which is called ICU. Instead, the ICU package seems to consist of several DLLs.
12:09:36  <Tekky> But the OpenTTD Visual C++ 2008 project file seems to assume the ICU package consists of one static library....
12:11:37  <Rubidium> Tekky: have you read the instructions in the
12:13:30  <Rubidium> I suppose not
12:13:47  <Tekky> no, I'm downloading it now :)
12:14:03  <Tekky> I only read the wiki page on Visual C++ 2008.
12:14:12  <Tekky> and the ICU documentation.
12:14:38  <Rubidium> though I wonder why you want to go through the trouble of manually building the libraries
12:15:12  <Tekky> ah, thx, that explains everything....
12:16:30  <Tekky> I wanted to enable global optimizations, that's why :)
12:18:26  <Tekky> The library must be compiled with global optimizations active, if I want to apply them to the library....
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12:19:55  <petern> somehow i suspect it doesn't matter muc
12:19:57  <petern> +h
12:20:50  <Rubidium> and I reckon you need MSVC 2008 static libraries to do the global optimisations too, right?
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12:21:59  <Tekky> yes, they must have been made specifically for Visual C++ 2008.
12:22:19  <Rubidium> oh, so no point in remaking the distributed libraries then ;)
12:22:36  <Tekky> I'm not sure whether VC++ 2008 Service Pack 1 is compatible with the non-SP1
12:22:55  <Rubidium> Tekky: make sure you build all libs according to the 'guidelines' in the, otherwise it will not link
12:23:57  <Tekky> yes, thx....
12:24:50  <Tekky> I've compiled the other libraries already, it just was libicu.lib I was having trouble with....
12:34:10  <Tekky> because I didn't know that libicu.lib is supposed to export the same symbols as icuuc40.dll.
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12:37:16  <welshdragon2> awesome
12:37:19  <welshdragon2> i have a bot battle in #simsig
12:42:31  <welshdragon2> they killed each other :(
12:45:49  <welshdragon2> it's started again
12:46:08  <welshdragon2> Tekky, i'd enable flood protection, this could get nasty
12:48:38  *** welshdragon2 is now known as welshdragon
12:49:00  <Tekky> hehe
12:51:38  <welshdragon> that was nasty
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13:14:29  * Celestar yawns
13:17:14  <dih> good yawning
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13:24:11  <Tekky> damn, I just compiled all libraries myself for use with OpenTTD, but now I noticed the default calling convention (stdcall, fastcall, cdecl) was not set properly everywhere.... I guess I will just use the latest, even if these libraries do not support global optimizations.....
13:26:26  <ln> np: Soviet Estonia national anthem
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13:36:39  <Rubidium> Tekky: that's why I said you should follow the "guidelines" in the source zip
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13:39:16  <Tekky> I thought I could handle it myself, but I didn't think of the function calling convention. Next time, I should listen to you better, Rubidium. :-)
13:41:47  <Rubidium> it had taken me a few days to figure out how to make linkable static libs ;)
13:42:40  <Rubidium> and then we found out that MSVC 2005 doesn't work with the 2008 libs so I could do it all over; luckily I had written down the important steps, i.e. the guidelines and then I was done in about 2 hours including installing MSVC 2005
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13:48:48  <Char> !servers
13:49:04  <Char> hmmm
13:49:12  <Char> whats the stuff that is put in the topic?
13:49:23  <ln> "english only"?
13:49:27  <Ammler> Char: that are subdomains
13:49:27  <Char> like: Gameservers: servers
13:49:34  <Char> ah i see....
13:49:34  <Ammler> those
13:49:41  <Aali> you're looking for
13:49:48  <Char> :)
13:49:52  <Char> got it, thanks
13:54:00  <dih> cute... :-P
13:54:32  <Char> ?
13:56:28  <Belugas> wow... he did say thanks :D
13:56:34  <Belugas> indeed, cute ;)
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14:00:36  <dih> :-)
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14:11:59  <Celestar> hm.
14:13:01  <Celestar> is FS#2383 noAI related?
14:13:34  <Rubidium> no idea
14:13:48  <Rubidium> although it segfaults in ntdll.dll
14:15:19  <Rubidium> and it's a noai binary
14:15:19  <Celestar> great :P
14:15:46  <Rubidium> though I suspect it's something with fibers
14:16:31  <Tekky> Rubidium: 2 hours is not much, I normally spend a lot more time with such problems :)
14:17:27  <Rubidium> Tekky: you need more than 2 hours to "simply" install MSVC and build a few libraries according to a manual?
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14:17:58  <Tekky> Rubidium: Yes, because things normally don't work as planned :)
14:19:43  <Rubidium> Tekky: if you make a manual how to do something and then do it again too?
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14:24:29  <Tekky> Rubidium: Yes, maybe I should do that in future. ;-) Well, one of the main problems I had was that the assmbler versions of zlib did not compile with MS Visual C++ 2008. I was only able to fix it after finding this page on the internet:
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14:25:45  <Tekky> Rubidium: it took me more than a day to find out what was wrong :)
14:27:44  <Tekky> Rubidium: The source code of zlib was not compatible with the assembler shipped with Visual C++ 2008 and I spent most of the time trying to find a different assembler program. Instead, all I had to do was to change the line:
14:27:46  <Tekky> MOVD mm4,[esp+0]
14:27:48  <Tekky> to
14:27:49  <Tekky> MOVD mm4, DWORD PTR [esp+0]
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14:28:59  <Rubidium> wow... didn't know Microsoft allows assembly in C#
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14:31:24  <Tekky> Rubidium: I was mainly mislead by the fact that in the zlib project, the assembler files were listed as "Assembler Files (Unsupported)". Therefore, I thought I had to find a proper assembler program and the zlib library documentation stated that I had to install the Visual C++ 6.0 Processor Pack. But I was unable to find any such thing for Visual C++ 2008.... now I know that was because it...
14:31:24  <Tekky> preinstalled. :)
14:33:08  <Tekky> by the way, is there any way to explicitly give a hint to the compiler to optimize for the case that an if-condition will be false or true?
14:33:40  <Rubidium> for gcc there is
14:34:03  <Rubidium> for MSVC: I don't know and I don't care
14:34:16  <Tekky> good.... I find it strange that I was unable to find any such possibility in Visual C++.....
14:35:57  <Rubidium> #define likely(x) __builtin_expect(!!(x), 1)
14:36:01  <Rubidium> that's for gcc
14:36:25  <Rubidium> though ICC seems to be supporting that too
14:42:35  <Tekky> In Visual C++, I found the __assume(condition) intrinsic, but that is not what I wanted. I want the compiler/optimizer to optimize for a certain case and assume that the non-optimized case will occur only very seldomly. But the __assume intrinsic does not do that. Instead, it assumes that the non-optimized case will NEVER occur.
14:42:43  <CIA-5> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14540 /trunk/src/ (9 files in 2 dirs):
14:42:43  <CIA-5> OpenTTD: -Codechange: introduce [v]seprintf which are like [v]snprintf but do return the
14:42:43  <CIA-5> OpenTTD: number of characters written instead of the number of characters that would be
14:42:43  <CIA-5> OpenTTD: written; as size_t is unsigned substraction can cause integer underflows quite
14:42:43  <CIA-5> OpenTTD: quickly.
14:43:39  <Tekky> Rubidium: the gcc code that you just posted, does that also assume that the non-optimized case will NEVER occur? Or SELDOMLY occur?
14:44:47  <Rubidium> seldomly I think; don't know exactly, I ripped it from the linux kernel code
14:46:46  <Tekky> it would seem logical to me to, for example, to give the optimizer a hint that the condition in an assertion will normally be true and it should therefore optimize accordingly.
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14:48:30  <Tekky> However, this does not mean that the optimizer can be sure that the condition will ALWAYS be true. Otherwise, the optimizer could optimize away the whole assertion.
14:49:14  <SmatZ> yeah, I was considering replacing assert() by __builtin_expect(!!(x), 0) when compiled without asserts
14:49:25  <SmatZ> it is only a branch hint I think
14:51:02  <Rubidium> <- yes it's branch prediction
14:51:31  <Tekky> ah, yes... I found this page too:
14:51:39  <Tekky> it does exactly what I want.....
14:51:55  <Tekky> in contrast to the MSVC++ 2008 __assume intrinsic....
14:52:31  <Tekky> SmatZ: Why only when compiled without asserts?
14:53:44  <Tekky> SmatZ: I think it makes also sense to use __builtin_expect with all asserts....
14:54:21  <Rubidium> I think it makes sense that assert should be implemented with such a builtin_expect
14:54:34  <Tekky> SmatZ: Please look at
14:55:04  <Tekky> SmatZ: There, it is recommended to use __builtin_expect for all error handling.... so also for assertions.
14:55:46  <Rubidium> gcc says it's not recommended to use __builtin_expect
14:56:00  <Rubidium> but rather use profiles to determine what to expect
14:56:04  * petern would expect almost no benefit :P
14:58:12  * Rubidium wonders what microsoft means with "alphabetical listing"
14:58:27  <Celestar> I guess Microsoft wonders that too :P
14:58:39  <keyweed_> whatever sequence they have the patent for
14:58:51  <petern> one would assume a list in alphabetical order
14:58:58  <Rubidium> just a small preview of the "alphabetical listing": __nop, __ud2, __lidt, __sidt, __halt
14:59:00  <keyweed_> no, that has prior art, can't be patented
14:59:12  <Tekky> Rubidium: Well, since most of us compile without profiles, I think using __builtin_except would be the best solution. The compile farms must compile without any profiling information, don't they?
15:00:12  <SmatZ> Tekky: gcc guesses branch probability
15:00:13  <Rubidium> yes, it isn't profiled
15:00:29  <Rubidium> though a compile cycle already takes more than enough time ;)
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15:02:38  <Rubidium> anyhow...
15:02:51  <Rubidium> I rather see macro level optimisations than micro level optimisations
15:04:49  <Tekky> as far as I can tell, gcc does not have an equivalent to the __assume intrinsic of Visual C++ and Visual C++ does not have an equivalent to the __builtin_expect intrinsic. I think both intrinsics would be useful.
15:07:43  <SmatZ> I have seen likely() and unlikely() using builting expect...
15:08:05  <SmatZ> now looking at usage of __builtin_expect, I am not sure if it can be used as statement
15:08:19  <SmatZ> eg. I get tons of "ixedsizearray.hpp:90: warning: statement has no effect" warnings
15:08:36  <SmatZ> when I #define assert(expr) __builtin_expect(!(expr), 1)
15:08:47  <SmatZ> maybe this was the reason why I gave up that idea...
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15:09:32  <SmatZ> errrr #define assert(expr) __builtin_expect(!(expr), 0)
15:11:12  <SmatZ> errr the first was correct...
15:11:16  <petern> well
15:11:25  <petern> why do you expect that to work?
15:12:10  <SmatZ> there are places where gcc uses autovectorization
15:12:25  <SmatZ> when working with large data blocks
15:12:32  <SmatZ> but it first has to verify data are aligned
15:12:43  <petern> huh?
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15:12:49  <SmatZ> phone :)
15:13:49  <SmatZ> example is the 32bpp blitter ... when autovectorization is done by gcc, the code is much slower
15:14:03  <SmatZ> because it does checks for size and alignment of data
15:14:20  <SmatZ> so if it was possible to tell it data are always aligned, it would make code fater
15:14:28  <SmatZ> *faster
15:15:02  <SmatZ> it could be like "assert((((size_t)ptr) & 15) == 0"
15:15:21  <Aali> __builtin_expect only affects branches, AFAIK
15:15:37  <SmatZ> seems so :)
15:15:58  <SmatZ> it would be nice if you could tell the compiler something is sure
15:16:04  <SmatZ> not just "very likely"
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15:23:45  <batti5> a question, do we have to use midi in openttd, i suggest its should ogg or some digital file
15:24:20  <glx> batti5: original music files are midi
15:24:40  <glx> and there's no replacement yet, so no need for another format
15:24:49  <SmatZ> batti5: run winamp in background :)
15:25:35  <batti5> but midi is a real chalange for linux
15:25:50  <Belugas> indeed, batti5.  There are other programs that can deal with far more audio file types, and way better too.
15:26:34  <batti5> linux can handel all exept midi
15:26:43  <Rubidium> yeah, maybe we should add a spreadsheet and word processing program to OpenTTD
15:26:44  <Mortal> I usually play these high-quality midi renderings of the OST in the background while playing the game
15:26:49  <Rubidium> batti5: go read the readme
15:27:22  <batti5> i tried timidity but im stuck
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15:27:42  <Rubidium> timidity works for me
15:28:03  <petern> it all works great with my old sb live ;)
15:28:27  <batti5> i may need some help with it "timidity"
15:28:51  <Tekky> <SmatZ>	it would be nice if you could tell the compiler something is sure <--- That is exactly what the __assume intrinsic in Visual C++ does. Unfortunately, I was unable to find any gcc equivalent.
15:28:58  <glx> yes midi works fine on linux if you have the right hardware
15:29:21  <petern> it also works fine if you know how to set it up
15:29:21  <batti5> openttd can work with fluidsynth?
15:29:30  <petern> almost a card that supports hardware mixing is handy
15:29:42  <petern> *although
15:29:53  <petern> any midi synth will work
15:30:00  <Rubidium> Tekky: if something is sure we either assert on it or go into NOT_REACHED()
15:30:01  <petern> whether it'll sound good is another matter
15:30:44  <Rubidium> and gcc should be able to use the asserts to determine assumptions I'd say (whether it does is something else)
15:30:48  <batti5> my card dont has midi, in windoze i used microsoft synthethiser
15:31:17  <petern> batti5, set up dmix first, then alsa can combine the audio and music together
15:31:30  <batti5> how?
15:31:37  <petern> rtfm
15:31:42  <glx> timidity is like mssynth
15:31:47  <SmatZ> Rubidium: yes, but it still leaves the check there
15:32:25  <Rubidium> assert doesn't leave checks behind
15:32:42  <Rubidium> or somebody did check on something that assert already checks
15:33:09  <batti5> whare can i get dmix?
15:33:25  <petern> you already have it
15:33:38  <petern> it just needs setting up
15:34:00  <petern> or using pulseaudio's a possibility i suppose.
15:35:17  <batti5> no alsa
15:35:21  <batti5> ,
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15:35:27  <petern> not alsa?
15:35:28  <petern> hmm
15:35:42  <petern> so some ancient version of linux then
15:35:50  <petern> or a crappy card
15:36:13  <batti5> yes,but i ment no pulseaudio
15:36:30  <batti5> i use alsa
15:36:46  <batti5> and oss
15:37:07  <batti5> i have kubuntu 8.1
15:38:00  <batti5> so how can i setup dmix?
15:40:08  <petern> ask google
15:40:09  <Belugas> have you searched on google, wiki or others?
15:40:19  <batti5> ok
15:40:25  <blathijs> Tekky: There has been some dicussion on the LLVM mailing list recently about exactly that (LLVM is a compiler project that provides a gcc backend as well as other component)
15:40:46  <blathijs> Tekky: The __assume thing
15:41:09  <Tekky> blathijs: And what was the result of the discussion?
15:41:24  <blathijs> Not finished yet :-)
15:41:41  <Tekky> ah, so they do intend to implement it? Cool....
15:41:54  <blathijs> They agreed it would be good to have something like it, but it probably just needs someone to code it :-)
15:41:58  <SmatZ> blathijs: are things from LLVM ported to gcc?
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15:42:23  <batti5> but the original midi files are copyrighted, arent thay going to get replaced like grfs?
15:42:25  <SmatZ> or do you expect LLVM to replace (or merge with) GCC once :)
15:42:51  <blathijs> SmatZ: I don't think so. This would be mostly implemented in the LLVM optimizers, and that's not backportable to gcc
15:44:16  <Belugas> batti5, it might eventually, but it's really not a priority
15:44:18  <petern> batti5, unlikely, as the game works perfectly well without them
15:44:20  <Rubidium> batti5: even the new grfs are copyrighted
15:44:45  <petern> and, of course, open source and less restrictive licenses do not mean 'not copyrighted'
15:44:55  <Belugas> pkus, someone still have to compose such replacement music :)
15:45:16  <Belugas> and frankly, my guitar playing does not fit with Openttd :D
15:45:25  <petern> my keyboard playing fits nowhere :(
15:45:34  <batti5> i understand now
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15:47:04  <Belugas> poor petern :)  we'll improve that, once, i'll cross the waters ;)
15:47:55  <CIA-5> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14541 /trunk/src/ (string.cpp string_func.h): -Fix (r14540): mingw didn't like it :(
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15:53:04  <Eddi|zuHause> although i have a good musical education, i found composing is beyond my abilities
15:53:25  <Eddi|zuHause> my brother seems quite good at it, though
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16:04:55  <CIA-5> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14542 /trunk/src/ (fios.cpp music/os2_m.cpp network/network_gui.cpp win32.cpp): -Codechange: replace some sprintf with s[en]printf to make sure they will not overflow their buffers.
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16:26:00  <CIA-5> OpenTTD: glx * r14543 /branches/noai/ (49 files in 8 dirs): [NoAI] -Sync: with trunk r14519:14542
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16:48:47  <CIA-5> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14544 /branches/noai/src/ (ai/ai_squirrel.cpp console_cmds.cpp): [NoAI] -Fix [FS#2384]: segfault due to overflow when doing list_ai in the console.
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17:32:34  <Eddi|zuHause> gaaaah... i hate when svn conflict resolving tries to merge two totally unrelated changes just by blank lines... you get the two changes totally interleaved
17:34:10  <Aali> i've found that tortoisemerge does me more harm than good
17:34:45  <Aali> much more comfortable with the source and a .rej file in my favourite text editor
17:42:54  <Eddi|zuHause> tortoise merge has an entirely different problem...
17:43:07  <Eddi|zuHause> it lacks a "edit these lines" option
17:43:15  <Eddi|zuHause> (at least the last time i tried)
17:43:54  <Aali> well, you can edit lines
17:44:44  <Eddi|zuHause> back when i used tortoise, you could only choose "take this line" or "take other line"
17:45:18  <Aali> it has come a long way since then
17:46:42  <Aali> but its still missing alot of features
17:47:12  <Aali> (or was, back when i used it ;))
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18:10:23  <batti5> whare original grfs added in linux?
18:10:46  <Ammler> ~/openttd/data or
18:10:57  <Ammler> (missing dot)
18:11:02  <ln> english only, bitte.
18:11:18  <batti5> No such file or directory
18:11:25  <dih> ~/.openttd/data
18:11:27  <Ammler> then create one
18:11:33  <dih> but that is not the place for the original grf's
18:11:42  <Ammler> batti5: if it is a multiuser system you can add them also to
18:11:43  <dih> they should be in /usr/games
18:11:55  <Ammler> hmm
18:12:19  <batti5> dih: /user/games no openttd thare
18:12:39  <batti5> should i create it?
18:12:54  <glx> where is openttdw.grf?
18:13:15  <Ammler> batti5: /usr/share/games/openttd
18:13:29  <Ammler> and you might need to create the data folder
18:14:54  *** welshdragon [~vista@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:15:13  <Ammler> batti5: usr not user
18:15:57  <batti5> it still asks for it
18:17:54  <batti5> it dont works
18:18:40  <Eddi|zuHause> batti5: answer glx's question
18:19:34  <batti5> i dont know whare opentttdw is, i alrady said it
18:19:52  <Eddi|zuHause> well find it...
18:20:04  <Eddi|zuHause> how did you install openttd?
18:20:11  <batti5> apt
18:20:29  <Eddi|zuHause> and does this give information on where it installed it?
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18:20:37  <batti5> no
18:20:39  <Eddi|zuHause> a file list of some sort?
18:20:52  <batti5> no
18:23:13  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm sure it does
18:23:27  <Eddi|zuHause> you just have to ask it nicely
18:23:49  <batti5> how?
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18:24:08  <Eddi|zuHause> that i can't tell you
18:24:32  <batti5> ok
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18:26:56  <Char2> hmmm
18:27:10  <Char2> is there an easy way to replace all engines by newer ones?
18:27:26  <glx> same model or not?
18:28:52  <Char2> same model
18:28:54  <Char2> like
18:29:15  <glx> set autorenew in advanced/patches settings
18:29:15  <Char2> i want to replace all the steam engines running on my main line by diesel ones
18:29:19  <Char2> ah
18:29:28  <Char2> that way same model
18:29:28  <Char2> no
18:29:30  <Eddi|zuHause> that is different model
18:29:50  <glx> you want to use autoreplace indeed
18:29:59  <Eddi|zuHause> the steam engine is the old model, the diesel engine is a different model
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18:30:29  <Eddi|zuHause> go to the vehicle list, click on "manage list" and there on "replace vehicles"
18:31:10  <batti5> im back, it was just a reboot
18:32:13  <Eddi|zuHause> blasphemy!
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18:36:05  <Char2> Eddi|zuHause: thanks a lot :)
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18:38:46  <batti5> it works now
18:39:08  <batti5> it was /usr/share/games/openttd
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18:44:41  <SmatZ> [19:13:16] <Ammler> batti5: /usr/share/games/openttd
18:46:20  <Rubidium> SmatZ: you haven't figured out yet that he doesn't read but guesses what one says? He probably typed it as /user/chair/gamez/opentdd or so
18:46:42  <SmatZ> hehe
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18:52:06  <Wolf01> 'night
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18:52:57  <ln> ... not
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19:24:57  <Aali> Yexo
19:25:11  <Yexo> yes?
19:25:49  <Aali> AdmiralAI wont build rail :/
19:26:12  <Yexo> did it build a rail station yet?
19:26:22  <Aali> it just keeps spitting out the name of every industry on the map followed by true and a seemingly random number
19:26:29  <Aali> it doesn't build anything
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19:28:06  <Aali> noai-r14544
19:28:21  <Aali> some grfs loaded, mostly stations and japan set
19:28:33  <Yexo> I've never seen that behaviour
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19:29:05  <Yexo> let me update to r14544 first
19:29:16  <Ammler> yexo is alive :-)
19:29:48  <Yexo> Ammler: I still am :) Just not that active in #openttd
19:29:50  <Ammler> next noaicomp soon?
19:29:51  <Belugas> evil as i oxey
19:30:05  <Yexo> sounds like a plan :)
19:30:40  <Ammler> trains against trains souds like fair competition now.
19:30:55  <Yexo> the coop team will still win from the AI
19:31:32  <Char> hmmm
19:31:37  <Char> just a question
19:31:56  <Char> are you guys always trying to connect the industries furthest away from each other to each other?
19:32:04  <Char> or just like it fits?
19:32:26  <Aali> Yexo: i figured the only thing that could cause it is RailRouteBuilder::BuildPath, but i'm not familiar with squirrel or the noai API so i dont know why its happening
19:33:04  <Yexo> Aali: it works fine here. can you upload a savegame somewhere (or pm on tt-forums)?
19:33:40  <Yexo> and it never reaches RailRouteBuidler::BuildPath as long as no stations are build
19:33:46  <Aali> its probably one of my patches then (so no, no savegame :P)
19:34:01  <Aali> thats weird
19:34:01  <Yexo> what patches are you running with?
19:35:50  <Belugas> hem... nicotine patch, eucalyptus patch, and a tire's patch, just in case
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19:39:15  <Aali> improved breakdowns, ITiM, IS, more conditional orders, routemarker and a few UI patches that should have no effect on the AI
19:39:59  <Yexo> improved breakdowns, is and more conditional orders shouldn't have any effect on rail building either
19:40:09  <Yexo> neither should routemarkers
19:40:11  <Aali> thats what i'm thinking
19:40:14  <Yexo> what is ITiM ?
19:40:25  <Aali> improved timetable management
19:40:46  <Yexo> can you give me a diff against plain noai?
19:40:52  <Aali> let me try a clean noai binary with the same grfs
19:41:04  <Yexo> good idea ;)
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19:45:00  <Aali> ..and now its working
19:45:16  <Aali> :/
19:45:18  <Aali> odd
19:46:27  <Belugas> buwhahhaha!
19:46:28  <Aali> it does print some errors now and then though
19:46:34  <Belugas> apprentice sorcerer!
19:46:40  <Aali> but it doesn't stop building stuff
19:46:54  <Yexo> printing errors is normal behaviour
19:47:32  <Aali> "Save function should return a table" followed by a long list of gibberish
19:47:52  <Yexo> saving is not supported in v14
19:48:25  <Aali> right
19:48:57  <Yexo> actually the AI crashes in the save function, but because it is in the save function it can continue running after that
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19:49:57  <Nite_Owl> Hello all
19:50:26  <Char> hi
19:50:33  <Aali> Yexo: the station thing gave me a pretty good clue though
19:50:49  <Aali> distant join is not just a UI patch ;)
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19:51:25  <Yexo> ah, so that is it :)
19:52:11  <Aali> we'll see
19:54:26  <Aali> still shouldn't cause the AI to think it had built a station when it obviously had not
19:54:36  <Aali> but its the only thing i can think of
19:54:46  <Yexo> it didn't think it build a station
19:55:05  <Yexo> that's the whole problem, It tried to build a station near every mine it could find, but building the station always failed
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19:55:45  <Aali> but you said buildpath is never reached if it hasn't built stations?
19:55:52  <Yexo> most likely distant join also needs some changes in api code, but since the patch is for trunk, it doesn't include those changes
19:55:56  <Eddi|zuHause> where is the function that flattens the area when an industry is built?
19:56:08  <Yexo> Aali: and you said it didn't build any rails at all?
19:56:26  <Aali> Yexo: it didn't build a thing
19:56:47  <Yexo> exactly, and building a station is done before pathfinding / building a route
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19:57:11  <Aali> so where did that message come from?
19:57:28  <Yexo> the message is printed as first thing in the station build function
19:57:36  <Yexo> stationmanager::_GetStationNearIndustry or so
19:57:46  <Aali> oh, right, i see it now
19:57:50  <Yexo> s/stationmanager/trainmanager/
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20:02:33  <Aali> it does build airports and bus/truckstops if i enable that though
20:02:59  <Aali> which is odd, since distant join modifies all station building commands
20:03:24  <Yexo> I'll have a look at the distant join stations patch
20:03:49  <Aali> i'm looking at it right now, dont worry about it
20:04:06  <Aali> i'll get to the bottom of this :P
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20:05:37  <Yexo> it's easy: for rail stations, the meaning of p1 and p2 are changed. For the other types (road stops, airports and docks) a previously unused part of p2 now has a meaning
20:05:54  <Aali> yeah, i was just going to say that
20:06:05  <Yexo> should be a pretty easy fix in src/ai/api/ai_rail.cpp
20:06:09  <Belugas> me too, me too!!
20:06:10  <Aali> indeed
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20:10:43  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i think i screwed something up:
20:11:21  <Aali> nice ore mine
20:12:26  <frosch123> ho, eddi you are lucky, not so long ago you would have triggered an assertion
20:12:54  <fjb> Earthquake?
20:13:22  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: yeah, i wondered why it doesn't choke on the double foundations :p
20:14:13  <Eddi|zuHause> fjb: no, i wanted to change the level function to not level 1 tile too much on each side
20:14:28  <Eddi|zuHause> i can't explain this behaviour, though
20:15:06  <fjb> At least it doesn't level mch...
20:15:11  <fjb> much
20:15:20  <Eddi|zuHause> 	cur_tile = tile;// + TileDiffXY(-1, -1);
20:15:20  <Eddi|zuHause> 	size_x = max_x;// + 4;
20:15:21  <Eddi|zuHause> 	size_y = max_y;// + 4;
20:15:25  <Eddi|zuHause> this is my modification
20:16:00  <Eddi|zuHause> in industry_cmd.cpp:CheckIfCanLevelIndustryPlatform
20:16:37  <frosch123> h = TileHeight(tile); <- you should modify that too
20:17:22  <Eddi|zuHause> why? that checks the top corner of the supposed industry
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20:18:30  <Eddi|zuHause> i changed the +4 to +2 now, it seems to work properly
20:18:35  <petern> feh
20:18:43  <petern> who says farms can't be built on hills
20:19:30  <Eddi|zuHause> petern: afair there's a[t least one] thread in the suggestions forum ;)
20:19:38  <Aali> great..
20:19:50  <Aali> now they build stations
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20:20:15  <Eddi|zuHause> cool... a town with one road and two parks... 0 inhabitants
20:20:45  <Aali> the pathfinder is awfully slow on 2048x2048 maps though
20:22:18  <glx> Eddi|zuHause: now have fun to make it grow :)
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20:22:50  <Aali> and one of them built the station too far away from the mine, so it doesn't get cargo
20:22:54  <Aali> smooth
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20:28:12  <Belugas> miaooow
20:28:38  <Aali> Yexo: is this something one should expect when two or more AI's choose the same route?
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20:29:01  <Aali> because they keep doing it
20:29:05  <Yexo> no, that's a bug
20:29:34  <Aali> maybe i got the orientation bit wrong
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20:32:27  <Yexo> Aali: I just rechecked on plain noai and all stations are build correctly
20:32:35  <Aali> yeah i messed up
20:32:47  <Aali> my bad
20:34:30  * fjb thiks about merging noai and cargodest.
20:34:37  <fjb> thninks
20:34:42  <fjb> thinks
20:34:50  <fjb> I should stop typing today.
20:34:58  <Aali> yes
20:35:00  <Aali> yes you should
20:35:10  <Yexo> fjb: you want a cargodest diff for noai?
20:35:23  <fjb> yes :-)
20:36:32  <Yexo> I'll upload a diff in the cargodest thread
20:36:38  <Aali> how much do you have to change to get that working?
20:36:40  <fjb> Cool.
20:37:00  * fjb starts a noai checkout.
20:37:06  <Aali> or do they work together without any hacks?
20:38:00  <Yexo> fjb: here you go:
20:38:06  <Yexo> Aali: only a few lines
20:38:19  <fjb> Great! Thank you.
20:38:22  <Aali> nice
20:38:28  <Yexo> 2 conflicts with includes (just add them together), and one conflict in train_cmd.cpp
20:39:53  <Aali> even though i dont really "get" cargodest (whats the point, you still control what goes where?) i'll have a look at that
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20:41:25  <Yexo> the point is that you can finally build a proper network without having to worry about transfer orders and transporting all passengers with your busses so your trains leave empty
20:42:59  <fjb> Transfering valuables between banks is also finally working.
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20:43:43  <fjb> And you can build an airport far away from each town and support it by trains or busses.
20:48:07  <Tekky> what does "NoAI" stand for? Wouldn't the name "NewAI" be more appropriate? :)
20:49:00  <Yexo> NoAI is just the name of the framework providing an API so new AIs can be developed.
20:49:16  <frosch123> it is the short form of "no crappy ais anymore" :p
20:50:07  <fjb> Wouldn't that be ncaa? :-)
20:50:19  <Aali> Yexo: i know this has been mentioned on the forums already, but your AI should really build the depots on the other track (other side)
20:50:55  <Yexo> if all is well, it builds depots on the tracks both way
20:51:01  <Yexo> so two depots per route
20:51:21  <Aali> yes, but the depot should be at the exit of the loading station
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20:51:37  <Yexo> that depends on how you look at it
20:52:02  <Yexo> currently every train has a service order in the depot after the unload station, so it is only serviced when empty
20:52:27  <Aali> reliability goes down _alot_ when the train is loading though
20:52:32  <Yexo> that is more realistic then servicing a fully loaded train
20:52:46  <Yexo> and I never play with breakdowns on :)
20:52:50  <Yexo> I should do that maybe
20:53:38  <Aali> its not that much of a problem with improved breakdowns, but it does make it less efficient
20:53:54  <Aali> atleast for low-speed trains
20:54:16  <fjb> What happens if I load a save with old ais into a noai game?
20:54:36  <Yexo> for every old ai a new ai is loaded that takes over the company
20:55:14  <Yexo> however, admiralai won't take over maintenance of already exisitng rail routes, so it'll just leave them there for always (it won't replace or renew the trains)
20:55:24  <Aali> segfault
20:55:26  <Aali> awesome
20:55:58  <Yexo> hmm, glx fixed a segfault with loading old saves in r14538
20:56:20  <Aali> not related to your discussion :P
20:56:45  <Aali> my ottd just segfaulted while i was watching the AI
20:56:50  <Yexo> ah ;)
20:56:54  <fjb> Hm, doesn't compile: src/aircraft_cmd.cpp:41:21: routing.h: No such file or directory
20:57:12  <Yexo> fjb: I'll upload a new diff in a moment
20:57:17  <fjb> Ok
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20:58:21  <Aali> Yexo: also, i noticed your AI built som strange tracks when the map got crowded
20:58:28  <glx> Yexo: it was not a segfault, just a load failure
20:59:14  <Aali> it was probably trying to build something and the other AI messed it up
20:59:27  <Yexo> Aali: hard to fix, except by disabling building altogether when no nice (=short) route can be found
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21:00:07  <Yexo> glx: you're right
21:00:08  <Aali> ended up with a piece of unsignaled track in the middle of everything
21:00:45  <Aali> and trains were using it as a bidirectional shortcut to get to/from a station :P
21:01:00  <glx> (and it was my fault ;) )
21:01:04  <Yexo> sometimes it found a route, begins building it, and halfway the building fails (maybe because another ai build something, or because a town build a new house). In such cases, pathfinding will restart
21:01:18  <Yexo> and trains were using it as a bidirectional shortcut to get to/from a station :P <- that should never happen
21:01:28  <Yexo> can you post a screenshot? (I won't ask again for a savegame :p)
21:01:32  <Aali> almost looked like a deliberate hackjob
21:01:46  <Aali> well, that game kinda segfaulted
21:01:58  <Aali> so it might have bigger problems ;)
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21:02:39  <Aali> i'll try to reproduce it with a debug build
21:02:47  <Yexo> with all the patches you have, hard to say :)
21:03:03  <Rubidium> Aali: don't forget to run it in gdb
21:03:05  <Yexo> just run a debug build in gdb and you'll know were it segfaulted
21:03:06  <Aali> yeah, its probably not your fault :P
21:03:17  <Aali> Rubidium: windows
21:03:34  <Yexo> so? gdb works perfectly fine in cygwin (and probably mingw)
21:03:43  <Rubidium> oh, then you're probably getting screwed by their fiber implementation
21:03:49  <Aali> and i know how to use gdb
21:04:59  <Aali> but the VS debugger is just soo much better
21:07:41  <petern> lies
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21:09:47  <Aali> petern: what does gdb have that the VS debugger doesn't?
21:10:06  <Rubidium> support for unix?
21:11:34  <Aali> and i'm not debugging a unix application, so thats kinda irrelevant
21:11:36  <petern> no stupid gui that gets in the way
21:12:57  <Aali> its one of the better parts of the VS GUI, actually
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21:13:04  <Aali> it doesn't even have nag screens
21:16:33  <Aali> and i find it helps that output from the debugger is separate from code and watch lists
21:18:18  <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause: did you manage to get your patch working?
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21:18:51  <Eddi|zuHause> the industry flattening? yes, it works with +2 instead of +4
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21:19:09  <Eddi|zuHause> i asume that's because the tileloop is not "inclusive"
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21:19:37  <Yexo> you have a diff somewhere?
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21:25:44  <Aali> Yexo: i haven't been able to reproduce it, but i noticed that unused track is left if the AI can't connect to the station
21:25:56  <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: it's really a trivial change...
21:26:02  <Eddi|zuHause> but i can prepare a diff
21:26:41  <Yexo> Aali: correct, but that is by design (it might be able to reuse the track for another route)
21:28:00  <Aali> Yexo: so it probably just happened to build tracks for another route that ended up serving as an alternate path for some trains
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21:28:40  <Yexo> in theory that can happen, but it is very unlikely
21:29:01  <Eddi|zuHause>
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21:29:32  <Eddi|zuHause> should be a -p1 patch
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21:31:10  <Aali> Yexo: indeed, but its not doing any other weird stuff
21:32:16  <Aali> that seems to be the only situation where it ends up with unsignaled, unconnected track
21:32:46  * dih hugs petern
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21:52:53  <Eddi|zuHause> with new railtypes, engines should maybe have more states than just "powered" and "unpowered"
21:53:21  <Eddi|zuHause> e.g. rack railways are usually also "powered" on conventional rails, but have a lot less tractive effort
21:53:26  <fjb> Randomly powerd? :-)
21:54:19  <fjb> Which ais should I try beside admiralai?
21:55:14  <Rubidium> fjb: rondje :)
21:55:37  <fjb> What is that?
21:56:28  <Yexo>
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22:05:45  <fjb> rondje sounds like fun.
22:06:49  <Eddi|zuHause> i could place stations in rough terrain much more easily if they could bend...
22:13:14  <Aali> Yexo: what would cause your AI to place signs? (labeled 1, 2, and 3)
22:13:53  <Yexo> it tried to build rail on the tile labeled "2" which should connect tiles "1" and "3", but building that rail failed
22:14:15  <Aali> right
22:14:53  <Aali> it was trying to build a diagonal track over a road tile
22:15:03  <Yexo> fjb: NoCap is a very good AI too (but roadvehicles only)
22:15:35  <Aali> i guess the pathfinder ran before the road was constructed
22:15:38  <Yexo> Aali: most likely that road tiles was build very recently (either by another ai, by you, or by a town)
22:15:49  <fjb> I'm trying admiralai, nocab, rondje and pathzilla now.
22:16:19  <dih> nininininini
22:16:26  <Aali> Yexo: not too recent, but there's a window, i dont think its a bug :P
22:16:44  <fjb> NoCAB gives me an Error...
22:17:02  <Yexo> fjb: what kind? I was just trying nocap and it works here
22:17:07  <fjb> And WrightAI has a big problem in 1883. :-)
22:17:48  <Yexo> wrightai is just an example ai
22:17:57  <fjb> "Index 'pathFixer' does not exist"
22:18:11  <Yexo> it'll also have problems when in 1980+ when "always allow small airports" is disabled
22:20:55  <fjb> Can you not switch to bigger airports then?
22:21:53  <fjb> Oh, the problem with NoCAB may be that it got what the old ai left over...
22:21:54  <Yexo> fjb: I was talking about wrightai. AdmiralAI builds bigger airports as soon as it can
22:22:13  <Yexo> fjb: that can be a problem indeed
22:22:37  <Yexo> but if it crashed, you should report it (including the original savegame) in the correct forum thread
22:23:36  <fjb> Hm, how long does it take for admiralai before it starts to build vehicles?
22:23:56  <Yexo> it should first build a route before it can build vehicles :p
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22:26:09  <ccfreak2k> There.
22:26:12  <ccfreak2k> Moved over to my new host.
22:28:17  <Aali> Yexo: you should probably make it build one-way pbs signals all over
22:28:29  <Eddi|zuHause> @openttd log 2800
22:28:39  <Aali> sometimes a train decides to go back all the way to the station it came from
22:29:19  <Eddi|zuHause> no, i don't need an answer today...
22:29:31  <Yexo> yes, that is a problem, but building one-way pbs signals all over creates other problems, as sometimes a jam can only be solved by one vehicles going backwards
22:29:44  <Yexo> @openttd commit 2800
22:29:45  <DorpsGek> Yexo: Commit by tron :: r2800 trunk/lang/german.txt (2005-08-03 13:34:34 UTC)
22:29:46  <DorpsGek> Yexo: Further improvement of the german translation
22:29:50  <dih> Eddi|zuHause, commit?
22:29:52  <Aali> just put a one-way at the exit then
22:30:07  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... that might be a reason ;)
22:30:15  <dih> :-P
22:30:24  <Aali> oh wait, that doesn't work either
22:30:29  <Yexo> Aali: so not only the last, but also the first signal should be one-way. Good idea!
22:30:39  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: asking the right question is the clue to getting an answer from DorpsGek; it isn't a babyottd-like bot that just says things
22:30:54  <Aali> Yexo: nah, then they wont go backwards
22:31:06  <Yexo> they will, since the depot is after that signal
22:31:33  <Aali> well, the depot is the end of the track
22:31:42  <Yexo> hmm, right
22:31:53  <Aali> so they would basically have to be in the station to go backwards into depot
22:33:07  <Yexo> trains going backward shouldn't happen that much anyway, since (if all is well) a train will be sold if there are too many for the station
22:33:31  <Aali> i guess
22:34:06  <Aali> it happens quite alot in my current game but thats because i've been messing with the AI's tracks :P
22:35:08  <Yexo> main problem is that trains are only sold in the AdmiralAI::DoMaintenance function, and that function isn't called while pathfinding (so if pathfinding takes very long, this can happen a lot)
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22:47:25  <Char> hmmm
22:47:27  <Char> a question
22:47:38  <Char> signals are impossible to build on bridges, right?
22:47:44  <Sacro> not impossible
22:47:48  <Char> are they also impossible to build in tunnels?
22:47:49  <Char> ?
22:48:04  <Eddi|zuHause> some road vehicles should be able to go backwards (i.e. jump to the other side, like when overtaking) in drive through stops
22:49:07  <Aali> Eddi|zuHause: thats just asking for deadlocks
22:49:21  <fjb> My wish for road vehicles is that articulated vehicles learn how to overtake.
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22:50:18  <fjb> Char: No signals in tunnels or on bridges.
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22:51:14  <Aali> Char: tunnels and bridges are "wormholes", there's actually no track there apart from the entrance and exit tiles
22:51:22  <Char> oh
22:51:25  <Char> so thats the reason
22:51:34  <ln> *that's
22:52:03  <Char> yeah, well, "that's" would be correct english, i agree :P
22:52:11  <Eddi|zuHause> i've seen a patch that allowed the construction of signals on bridges
22:52:17  <Eddi|zuHause> only the trains did not obey to them :p
22:52:34  <Char> but then again, what about capital letters in the beginning of scentences?
22:52:39  <Char> hmmm
22:52:57  <Aali> i made a patch that allowed more than one train to enter a wormhole
22:53:08  <Char> well, but that kindof sucks cause that means you always have to build multiple bridges...
22:53:26  <Char> aali: but they might crash in the wormhole....
22:53:41  <Aali> that was easy to fix, the problem was trains would crash when they came out of the wormhole :P
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22:54:55  <Rubidium> Char: did you know it kinda sucks when somebody says something sucks and then they don't do anything about it?
22:54:55  <Aali> you could have 10 trains standing on top of each other at the exit, and when that signal became green, boom, 10 dead trains in a neat pile
22:58:23  <SmatZ> om nom nom nom potatoes + salt + beer nom nom nom
22:59:01  <SmatZ> I need a girlfriend who can cook :-x
22:59:34  <Rubidium> nom?
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22:59:54  <SmatZ> I can't eat boiled potatoes my whole life...
23:00:13  <SmatZ> Rubidium: :-)
23:00:15  <Rubidium> then teach he to read ;)
23:00:31  <SmatZ> hehe
23:01:20  <Rubidium> *her
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23:01:27  <SmatZ> :-)
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23:01:36  <SmatZ> she must want to learn ..
23:01:37  <Rubidium> cooking isn't that hard
23:02:21  <SmatZ> yeah... I can cook potatoes... and eggs... and sausage...
23:02:25  <Aali> Yexo:
23:02:40  <Rubidium> then you can also make pasta
23:02:45  <SmatZ> but not sauces..
23:02:46  <Aali> what do you think about that? :P
23:02:49  <SmatZ> yeah... :-)
23:02:58  <Rubidium> SmatZ: just buy a jar
23:03:23  <glx> Aali: known bug I think
23:03:24  <SmatZ> Rubidium: how can it help? :-)
23:03:41  <Rubidium> adds pasta to your menu ;)
23:03:52  <Yexo> Aali: the train station was joined with the truck stop, and all my rail code excepts the tile under the station sign to be part of the rail station.
23:04:00  <Yexo> glx: not known so far
23:04:06  <SmatZ> ahh... yeah, I can cook spaghetti and I like it :-)
23:04:19  <SmatZ> but I want my wife to cook, not me ;-)
23:04:44  <Aali> Yexo: so it was basically trying to connect the truck stop with tracks?
23:04:50  <glx> Yexo: I'm quite sure I saw it reported on the forum
23:04:57  <Rubidium> SmatZ: just hide the potatos and such
23:05:17  <Rubidium> and only place the ingredients for pasta in the storage
23:05:25  <Rubidium> and tell her that you're not going to cook ;)
23:05:26  <SmatZ> hehehe
23:05:28  <SmatZ> :-D
23:05:36  <Aali> easy fix would be to never join stations
23:05:37  <Rubidium> eventually she'll be so hungry she starts cooking it ;)
23:05:42  <SmatZ> hehe
23:06:02  <SmatZ> this one is weird, I will need a different one I guess ;-) (talking about girl :-(
23:06:15  <Yexo> glx: Sirkoz reported "however there are still some problems with attaching the rail with rail stations", however, that was not the same issue
23:09:46  <glx> ok
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23:12:10  <Char> Rubidium: if i was able to, i would do sth about it.
23:15:54  <Yexo> Aali: do you know what part of the station was there first? the truck stop or the railway station?
23:16:09  <Yexo> from the station sign I'd say the truck stop
23:16:15  <Aali> Yexo: the truck stop
23:16:25  <Aali> i saw it build the tracks
23:18:45  <Yexo> this is strange, I just check my code and it shouldn't connect the train station to the truck stop
23:19:28  <Yexo> are you sure you fixed the problems with distant joined stations ok?
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23:19:45  <Aali> no, i was just going to say, its probably related to that :P
23:21:10  <Yexo> there is two times "if (HasBit(p1, 24))" inside CmdBuildRailRoadStation, you should replace that with the correct new bit
23:22:00  <Yexo> or in ai/api/ai_rail.cpp, replace if (!join_adjacent) p1 |= (1 << 24); with the correct bit
23:22:20  <Aali> which i did but i might have gotten it wrong
23:23:03  <Yexo> in ai/api/ai_rail.cpp, don't forget the function BuildNewGRFRailStation
23:23:37  <Aali> the problem was i used the bool as a bit
23:23:47  <Aali> join_adjacent << 24
23:24:00  <Aali> but bools aren't just 0 or 1
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23:24:31  <Yexo> the problem is more that it should be the other way around (!join_adjacent << 24)
23:25:09  <Aali> err
23:25:14  <Aali> yeah, might be that :P
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23:26:06  <Aali> still i'm going to replace it with join_adjacent ? 0 : 1 just to be on the safe side
23:27:09  <Yexo> you could also leave the original code intact
23:28:16  <Aali> the meaning of the other bits in p1 is changed around, so the original code is already gone
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23:35:05  <CIA-5> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14545 /trunk/src/roadveh_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#2386]: road vehicles sometimes never got their "slots" deallocated causing RVs not going to depot for service.
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