Log for #openttd on 9th November 2008:
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00:10:20  <Wolf01> 'night
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00:43:58  <Nazcafan> hello
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00:45:13  <Rubidium> 'lo
00:46:16  <Nazcafan> I am trying a recent build of openttd, but I get an error message at startup saying that come characters (maybe euro sign) might not be available with the current language setting
00:46:50  <Nazcafan> I checked the readme file, and I tried to add Sans as the font in my openttd.cfg file, but I get this error:
00:47:04  <Nazcafan> Unable to use 'Sans' for large font, FreeType reported error 0x1, using sprite font instead
00:50:06  <Nazcafan> is there something I misssed?
00:51:30  <Rubidium> looking at the error number tells me: "cannot open resource", i.e. it cannot find the font
00:53:25  <tokai> Don't you have to specify a .tff file?  so /path/to/you/font.tff  maybe? At least that's how it works here AFAIR.
00:53:42  <tokai> .ttf actually
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00:57:58  <Nazcafan> mhh
01:02:09  <Nazcafan> tokai, Rubidium right, giving the font/path/...ttf works fine
01:02:14  <Nazcafan> thanks
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01:33:20  <Antdovu>
01:33:43  <Antdovu> any suggestions how to do the old/new method separation in a reasonable way?
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01:35:26  <benjamingoodger> erm
01:35:42  <benjamingoodger> I'm with commanderZ and yexo here
01:36:42  <benjamingoodger> it seems useful in theory, but not very much in practise
01:36:43  <benjamingoodger> I would, instead, have the clone button as a toggle, so it stays in clone mode once you have cloned a train
01:38:11  <Antdovu> the toggle part seems like a good idea
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01:38:32  <Nazcafan> I don't like the idea of entering the number of clones
01:38:40  <Nazcafan> I mean, typing it
01:39:38  <Nazcafan> I use a french keyboard, and typing such number requires holding the shift key, i.e. leave the mouse
01:40:42  <benjamingoodger> surely you can hold shift with your left hand?
01:40:43  <Nazcafan> I wonder whether an interface that let the user set the number of clones, maybe with +/- buttons would be more efficient
01:40:59  <benjamingoodger> I can type shift-7 with one hand
01:41:12  <Nazcafan> benjamingoodger, I can, but it is not convenient
01:41:44  <Antdovu> do you really have to use 2 keys at once to type a number? :S
01:41:49  <benjamingoodger> I...see
01:41:57  <Nazcafan> benjamingoodger, I can, but it is not convenienti
01:42:01  <Nazcafan> argh
01:42:10  <Nazcafan> Antdovu, yes, I do
01:42:31  <Nazcafan> I couls also use the num-keypad, but it is not available on laptops
01:43:53  <Antdovu> the lack of one key numbers doesn't sound too convenient
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01:47:15  <Antdovu> but any ideas how to make the old button act the same as it does now & at the same time give a prompt on a slightly different input sequence?
01:47:38  <Antdovu> ctrl+click & shift+click won't work
01:48:20  <Antdovu> and two buttons with the similar content length would be too large
01:54:54  <Nazcafan> what about a double click?
01:55:57  <welshdragon> Nazcafan, buy a usb numpad
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01:58:41  <welshdragon> Nazcafan,
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02:01:46  <Antdovu> can you accurately detect a double click?
02:02:23  <Antdovu> for some reason I usually get 2 single clicks in row even if I have OnDoubleClick() defined
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02:04:16  <Antdovu> the only way OnDoubleClick() gets called is when the button is already down
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08:16:13  <rubyruy> so i finally figured out why i could only make a profit using mamoth trains running coal using the longest possible engine
08:16:35  <rubyruy> APPARENTLY the US Set has ridiculously high running costs and these are only adjustable by adjusting building cost
08:16:37  <rubyruy> why... is that?
08:23:52  <Rubidium> because you get the American model with it free of charge; the model where everything is extremely expensive and you have to take enormous debts to buy something useful. Otherwise, ask the authors of the set who are AFAIK not in this channel.
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08:29:04  <rubyruy> i wish it WERE engine cost because as things stands you pay K for a locomotive that costs 0K/yr in running costs and basically 2 thirds of the cargoes can't make a profit :/
08:29:24  <rubyruy> having the actual buy price be exorbitant would make much more sense
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08:30:00  <rubyruy> and i can't tone down this particular diificulty without also toning down build costs
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09:54:19  <rubyruy> could somebody enlighten me as to the status of the ttdpatch community?
09:54:55  <rubyruy> ever since openttd was announced i assumed GRF developers would migrate to openttd whole hog, maybe ttdp would keep on a few people for legacy support reasons and not much else
09:55:31  <rubyruy> but it seems there's  a pretty hefty amount of fresh development effort (for grf sets) going into ttdpatch
09:55:33  <rubyruy> why is this?
09:57:45  <ln-> because ttdpatch was and perhaps still is more advanced, has more features, etc.
09:57:50  <fonso> because of custom bridge heads missing in openttd
09:58:00  * fonso ducks
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10:01:22  <fonso> FS#730 / FS#2320 are still without any official comment.
10:02:56  <fonso> I still think that diagonal levelling is very useful, especially on large maps. I also can't see what is wrong with the implementation I give there.
10:03:21  <fonso> Additionally it offers a new and very nice (IMO) way to iterate over tiles without macros.
10:05:29  <fonso> actually I made two patches implementing that functionality in different ways and I'd even implement a third version if necessary.
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11:07:51  <SpComb> <-- oh my, someone at least used to use myottd
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11:10:17  <petern> heh
11:15:54  * davis morning
11:17:35  <fonso> Has anyone ever tried to develop a higher level "frontend" language for nfo, so that you can actually read the code and don't have to fiddle around with cryptic bitmasks all the time?
11:18:51  <fonso> "Frontend" meaning that you compile the code into real nfo afterwards. It should be fairly straigh tforward ...
11:19:33  <frosch123> I guess there are about a dozend tries (not all realeased though)
11:19:52  <fonso> I only see graphical frontends
11:20:01  <fonso> not language frontends
11:20:13  <fonso> and an nfo to html converter
11:20:46  <Aali> a graphical frontend is alot more useful though
11:21:03  <fonso> only if it is really good.
11:21:06  <Aali> since you're not really doing much programming in an nfo
11:21:24  <Aali> its mostly defining properties for your stuff
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11:21:54  <fonso> Yes, but you don't want to be tied into a potentially buggy GUI for doing that
11:21:55  <frosch123> Aali: there are two parts of an nfo. One about aligning sprites and defining bounding boxes. That one could be done by some graphical frontend
11:22:13  <fonso> A compiler for some high level language can be much simpler than a GUI
11:22:17  <frosch123> And one that is more like programming and deals a lot with bit shifting and masking
11:22:33  <frosch123> For the second part a graphical interface is IMO more a step backwards
11:22:38  <fonso> and you can still build a GUI around the frontend language.
11:23:02  <Aali> frosch123: and the programming part for your average grf is not very complicated
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11:23:25  <frosch123> Aali: But it is the part, fonso asked about, didn't he?
11:23:39  <Aali> sure
11:25:00  <Aali> but a graphical frontend is still pretty good at doing action0s, action2s and action3s
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11:25:34  <frosch123> no, it isn't
11:25:57  <Aali> anything more complicated and you still end up writing the same code, its just in a different format
11:26:03  <frosch123> you think about very simple grfs, which only use some constants
11:26:12  <Aali> yes
11:26:13  <fonso> No one prevents you from writing one. But instead of producing nfo directly it could output some other language which you can read and then further work on.
11:27:11  <Aali> i haven't seen any grfs that weren't that simple
11:27:19  <Aali> sure, they probably exist
11:27:26  <fonso> Look at the canadian trains set
11:27:32  <fonso> or dbset xl
11:27:33  <Aali> but they're not that many
11:28:36  <frosch123> or any industry grf
11:32:01  <fonso> Building a consistent high level language would also be a good opportunity to find and repair inconsitencies in nfo itself. For example the fact that you can define a callback to decide if industry tiles need a foundation to be drawn but you can't do the same thing for houses.
11:33:15  <frosch123> if you count that as inconsistency, you should hope to never hear about 8 and 15 bit callbacks
11:34:52  <fonso> So I hope ... but I also hope you are going to disappoint me right now.
11:37:21  <frosch123> well, the problem becomes smaller when grf coders do not know about it :)
11:39:27  <fonso> Basically, I think we won't get around the ugliness of nfo for some time. But we can hack it up so that all properties and callbacks are consistent with each other. If we have a nice compiler for the resulting high level language we can integrate it in openTTD and skip the nfo step. For TTDPatch you could still compile it into nfo then.
11:39:38  <fonso> Is that a viable strategy?
11:40:28  <frosch123> for an other example: take a look at the speed properties of the different vehicle types. or even better take a look at the two weight properties of rail vehicles, and then at the two cost properties of bridges
11:41:38  <frosch123> or take a look which properties can be modified by callback 36, and which have their own callback
11:42:28  <frosch123> also callback 36 is called at different times for different properties (e.g. running cost every tick, vehicle length only in depot, ...)
11:42:53  <fonso> nice ... what a mess
11:43:28  <frosch123> or generally, from a grf creator point of view, you might wonder, why most vehicle callbacks apply to all vehicle types, but the house/station/industry callbacks are separate though they do the same
11:44:25  <frosch123> to sum up, nfo depends highly on how ttd works. and the grf coder has to know about those ttd details, as ttdp/ottd cannot support everything that might be codeable with nfo
11:45:04  <fonso> Openttd should be able to support more things than ttdpatch
11:45:30  <fonso> and we can implement a permissive and a restricted compiler
11:45:39  <frosch123> there is no big difference between ottd and ttdp in that point
11:45:54  <fonso> the restricted compiler would check for things that can't be done in ttdp.
11:46:43  <fonso> The house tile foundation thing would be trivial to implement in openttd, but simply isn't specified.
11:46:49  <frosch123> I would really like to see a compiler, that ensures that the vehicle length callback does only change its return value, while inside depot
11:47:24  <fonso> Is it possible to check that statically?
11:47:32  <frosch123> [12:48] <fonso> The house tile foundation thing would be trivial to implement in openttd, but simply isn't specified. <- and why is there a open fs task since a half year?
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11:48:05  <fonso> I just commented on it. With sample code.
11:48:10  <frosch123> [12:49] <fonso> Is it possible to check that statically? <- in the mean time ottd checks it at run time
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11:48:54  <fonso> perhaps the whole thing is not that straight forward.
11:49:06  <Korenn> petern: will you be moving that cargo grf to a new hosting spot, or should I just remove all mention of them from the wiki page?
11:50:47  <frosch123> fonso: your fs patch does hardly a 1/4 what is needed
11:51:18  <fonso> well, if you define that flag you also need to recognise it when parsing. I know.
11:51:22  <frosch123> you also need some slope-check callback on construction and an autoslope callback
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11:51:53  <frosch123> and the autoslope callback in its current form is one of the less usable callbacks at all
11:52:32  <fonso> those would be the same as with industries, wouldn't they?
11:53:51  <frosch123> ok, then restart from somewhat earlier in the discussion: would you add a new callback as it is done for the animation stuff, or would you use the same callback number as for industries as it shall return the same stuff?
11:54:30  <frosch123> and the autoslope callback is a bit more critical for houses
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11:55:24  <frosch123> i.e. currently there is now way to figure out, what would the slope look like after autoslope. so currently all industry grfs, that have custom foundations, just disable autoslope.
11:55:47  <frosch123> but would like every second house inside a town to disallow autoslope?
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11:56:22  <fonso> won't work, of course. Because houses can be next to each other.
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11:56:50  <fonso> but can't industries be placed next to each other, too?
11:56:57  <fonso> bah, I'm confused.
11:57:37  <frosch123> or would you rather like some callbacks which tell what slope the house needs, and ottd/ttdp then draw a matching flat/inclined/whatever foundation?
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11:59:55  <fonso> I see there is a problem. We have to decide on which foundation the given house can be built. Right? So, how is that solved for industries and why can't we reuse that solution?
12:00:35  <frosch123> Industry tiles have a slope-check and an autoslope callback
12:01:28  <George> hey, are you discussing FS 2069? May I take part in? ;)
12:01:37  <fonso> Action0IndustryTiles
12:01:38  <petern> Korenn, yes i will
12:01:43  <frosch123> and as I already said, the autoslope callback can only be used to disallow any autosloping, i.e. not depening on how the player is about to terraform the tile
12:01:51  <fonso> So why can't we have Action0HouseTiles?
12:01:58  <frosch123> yes, George, you are welcome :)
12:02:24  <frosch123> fonso: because there are no house tiles?
12:04:17  <fonso> Is that only because we don't have the respective callback in Action0Houses?
12:05:08  <George> So, as you could see on my screen shot, I came to the idea to have houses, which require sloped land the same way industries do. Unfortunately, 2x2 and 2x1 houses can be placed on a different tile than a northern one (2x1 house have 2 possible locations, while 2x2 houses have 4). The idea was to grant houses just the same behaviour as industry tiles have.
12:06:36  <George> Hope, the idea is understandable, I hope ;) I'd like to know, would it be hard to apply this part of the industry tiles code to houses?
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12:09:08  * frosch123 wrote a small summary in the fs task
12:10:08  <Korenn> petern: oki, thanks :)
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12:12:17  <George> Question about a) can't the code be changed to disallow a house be build on the other place (build on the northern tile only)
12:15:08  <George> b) well, for most buildings the callback 3C may return 0. For some special buildings, who require callback 3C, it may be 1.
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12:16:04  <frosch123> hmm, maybe a) is no longer true
12:16:57  <frosch123> George: I can imagine that some point most buildings on hills build into the hill instead of using an ugly foundations
12:17:32  <frosch123> that would basically disable autoslope in towns for hilly terrain
12:18:23  <George> b) also, why not to implement a new var for callback 3C, that will return new slope byte for all 4 tiles affected. So, when a point is trying to be lowed or raised, it will happen only if all 4 tiles will allow it
12:19:27  <frosch123> so IMO the industry concept is not that useable here. Maybe let the custom slope callback return the slope the house expects. So OTTD/TTDP could draw a matching flat/inclined slope to create the expected slope on any terrain
12:20:02  <George> frosch123: Well, if house set would provide different graphics for sloped tiles, then I suppose it should prevent terraforming. And a player would know it when loading such a set
12:21:00  <frosch123> yup, that would be the classical solution :) i.e. to leave everything up to the grf coder :p
12:21:09  <George> frosch123: Let me disagree with you here. If a house set prevents terraforming - it's a concept of a house set. It is just designed that way. Why is it not acceptable for houses?
12:21:37  <George> frosch123: Yes. Don't you love grf coders? ;)
12:22:26  <George> Imho, very good solution :) :)
12:22:49  <frosch123> err, I did not said disallowing autoslope would be intended by the grf creator, just that is basically the only way to prevent the house from falling up or down or being disconnected from other tiles of the same house
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12:24:36  <frosch123> and just passing the new slope to the autoslope callback would IMO make things for grfs far too complicated
12:25:25  <George> You mean the GRF coder should control then that tiles of a house are still connected the right way? Well, It would not frighten me ;)
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12:26:52  <frosch123> see also, but please do not bump the thread :)
12:31:45  <frosch123> though maybe instead of adding a new property to control that stuff, the autoslope callback could return different values. but that would require grf version 8, as the current autoslope callback is not extensible
12:35:01  <George> frosch123: >* houses/industries if they allow that. (This is controlled by newgrf properties resp. their default values)
12:35:03  <George> How do hoses allow/disallow autoslope?
12:35:59  <frosch123> houses have a "only allowed on flat ground" flag in some action 0 property
12:36:18  <frosch123> that one is also evaluated for houses in ottd, but IIRC not in ttdp
12:36:43  <George> that affects construction only, isn't it?
12:36:57  <frosch123> in ottd also autosloping :)
12:37:02  <frosch123> but only for houses
12:37:24  <frosch123> industry autosloping does not check any of the during-construction-slope-restrictions
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12:41:25  <Antdovu> is it supposed to be the case that you can't double click a WWT_TEXTBTN unless it is in a lowered state?
12:42:17  <Antdovu> for example the clone button in depots is of that type
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13:00:03  <Wolf01> hello
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13:09:44  <George> frosch123: Call callback 3C which can deny autosloping. Variable 60 represents the landscape that would result from the terraform operation (i.e. the new slope of the calling and neighboured tiles). If the callback fails, threat it like not enabled, i.e. allow autoslope.
13:09:45  <George> Does it work? Cool, why didn't you write it on wiki? Also, would it change all the bits of var 60, or slope info only? For example, lowing land to water level would make it water?
13:10:19  <frosch123> no, it does not work
13:10:21  <ln->
13:10:46  <frosch123> George: the whole thread is full of suggestions, but none became reality
13:11:25  <George> fro
13:11:57  <George> frosch123: ops, I supposed it is a PATCH, the thing that is coded. sorry
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14:15:02  <George> frosch123: I've read the topic. I could not understand - what is the future of getting more information during callback 3c about sloped land? Do you plan to implement it?
14:15:04  <George> Also, what about hoses? Can they be build not at northern tile or not? And what do you think about implementing all these callbacks  (3C, 2F, 30) for houses?
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14:15:21  <rortom> hi
14:15:30  <rortom> whats the format for the GUI widgets again?
14:15:42  <glx> what do you mean?
14:15:44  <rortom> {   WWT_CLOSEBOX,   RESIZE_NONE,  COLOUR_GREY,     0,    10,     0,    13, STR_00C5,          STR_018B_CLOSE_WINDOW},                // SVW_CLOSEBOX
14:16:00  <rortom> x,y, width,height?
14:16:30  <glx> top, bottom, left, right
14:16:47  <rortom> ah, thank you very much, i always forget it ;)
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14:17:47  <Antdovu1>
14:17:49  <Antdovu1>  Any further criticism/suggestions?
14:18:44  <glx> rortom: indeed it's left, right, top, bottom :)
14:18:45  <rortom> nice idea :)
14:18:55  <rortom> glx: lol, thanks ;)
14:19:17  <glx> window_gui.h:81
14:20:18  <frosch123> George: Implementing is on my TODO list. For OTTD all suggestions (which I have heard of) are possible. Just that noone had good arguments for or against the different specs.
14:21:17  <George> frosch123: Do  you mean about hoses or industries?
14:22:14  <frosch123> However usually these discussion end up in nothing. See engine pool discussion wrt. attaching wagons from other sets, the autoslope discussion, dalestan's discussion about removing sprite numbers in nfo version 8, the noai discussion about reworking the AI callback, ...
14:23:13  <frosch123> [15:23] <George> frosch123: Do  you mean about hoses or industries? <- both, in fact fonso is right that implementing is easy, after the specs are finished
14:24:55  <George> frosch123: Confused. Why not to use industry spec for houses? (2F, 30, 3C)
14:26:02  <frosch123> only when the autoslope situation for callback 0x3C is resolved. I dislike duplicating problems.
14:26:46  <George> Oh, I see. Well, is there a sum post for all the problems left?
14:27:32  <rortom> rewriting gui stuff is unnice :\
14:28:20  <frosch123> I am working on one, but that might take some time...
14:29:01  <George> Let me know when it is written, please.
14:30:01  <rortom> isnt there a new c++ based GUI?
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14:31:58  <Antdovu1> there is a new GUI since 0.6
14:32:24  <Antdovu1> as in, after 0.6
14:33:06  <rortom> is there anything in 0.6 written in it?
14:33:13  <dih> Antdovu1, as a default action it sucks :-P
14:33:31  <Alberth> rortom: we switched to derived Window classes for each window
14:33:45  <dih> shift and ctrl are already taken
14:33:58  <Antdovu1> if you are talking about the clone patch: the default action is now the same as in trunk
14:34:10  <dih> you could amke an 'advanced settings' option where people can enable that dialog as a default, but i doubt it's _that_ useful
14:34:14  <Antdovu1> new behaviour only with double click
14:34:23  <dih> nobody clones a vehicle 20 times in one go
14:34:39  <Antdovu1> nobody needs more than 560KB of memory ;)
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14:34:55  <dih> Antdovu1, that is a totaly unrelated comment
14:35:11  <Antdovu1> translation: I actually did need it, more than in one game
14:35:13  <dih> as i did not say nobody uses more than 20 vehivles
14:35:20  <dih> i said they dont clone that many in one batch
14:35:30  <dih> YOU did ;-)
14:35:43  <Antdovu1> there are other people with HUGE networks
14:35:48  <dih> yep
14:35:52  <dih> openttdcoop for example
14:35:57  <dih> you still clone when it's needed
14:36:12  <dih> you dont just send 50 trains to the station
14:36:33  <Antdovu1> what about when converting from one railway type to another?
14:36:35  <dih> just to avoid a huge queue and a loss of money for the first 2 years
14:37:19  <Antdovu1> routes on 2048^2 maps can give you quite a bit of room for such actions :)
14:37:41  <dih> no - just because it's possible does not mean it's done ;-)
14:38:09  <dih> just because a 2048^2 map allows you to level 3/4 of it and still have a 1024^2 map does not mean it's done
14:38:24  <rortom> Alberth: is there any example in the code whee i can see how to use the new windowing system?
14:38:42  <Alberth> rortom: any *_gui.cpp file will do probably
14:38:52  <dih> Antdovu1, for the most cases it's not worth overriding the default handling of cloning
14:39:10  <Antdovu1> as I said, I already changed the default action
14:39:32  <dih> i know you said that
14:39:46  <rortom> Alberth: but the system still defines the widgets using that array?
14:39:47  <dih> as i said - you'd have more interested people if you did not :-P
14:39:59  <Alberth> rortom: yes
14:40:29  <Antdovu1> which is why I made it work the way people suggested ;)
14:40:29  <rortom> ok, thanks :)
14:41:09  <dih> still - i doubt it will have any amount of use
14:42:00  <Mark> that clone patch is the best suggestion i've seen in a long time
14:42:07  <dih> ?
14:42:19  <Alberth> rortom: what are you making?
14:42:31  <rortom> Alberth: you will see later ;)
14:42:36  <dih> Mark, sinse when do you clone that many vehicles that you could not click faster?
14:42:51  <Mark> clicking makes your fingers hurt
14:42:54  <Mark> and, you do
14:43:09  <Mark> in coop games it often happens you clone 50 or more trains in a time
14:43:25  <Mark> hundreds even, when using selfregulating networks
14:43:30  <Mark> i know i'd use that feature a lot
14:43:48  <dih> do :-P
14:43:55  <dih> i think it's silly
14:43:56  <dih> :-P
14:45:07  <Antdovu1> good to see that someone thinks it is useful :P
14:45:30  <dih> Antdovu1, you even have people that would like to see war as a desaster in OpenTTD :-P
14:46:34  <Mark> another situation where it's useful: when converting a large network to a new track type
14:46:50  <dih> since when does openttdcoop do that? :-P
14:47:05  <Mark> since when don't we?
14:47:10  <dih> ?
14:47:22  <Mark> see prozone game 2
14:47:23  <dih> i have only seen you guys stick with one single track type for the entire game
14:47:28  <dih> pz
14:47:35  <dih> pz has lived for 2 games during 3 months
14:47:45  <dih> that is a huge flopp imo
14:47:57  <Mark> that's quite unrelated to my point
14:48:27  <dih> mz / pz games are totally different from ps games
14:48:35  <dih> of course in those games you may have had upgrades
14:48:42  <dih> and of course they occure in other network games
14:49:03  <dih> but that is a single situation
14:49:12  <dih> a single semi usefu. one
14:49:19  <dih> *useful
14:49:39  <Mark> [15:42] <Mark> clicking makes your fingers hurt -> that was actually a serious point
14:49:46  <Mark> have you ever cloned 1000 trains?
14:50:15  <dih> in all honesty i doubt you have
14:50:16  <SpComb> have I ever wanted to clone 1000 trains?
14:50:33  <dih> even on coop games where you do have that number of trains
14:50:39  <Antdovu1> 1000 on usually different routes I presume
14:50:54  <dih> Antdovu1, they often share a mainline
14:51:00  <Mark> yeah, on different routes
14:51:27  <Mark> still, one needs to click 1000 times
14:51:30  <Antdovu1> I converted ~800 from electric to maglev in my last big game
14:51:49  <dih> Mark, name one game where you have actually YOURSELF had to clone even close to that number of trains
14:51:59  <dih> i really doubt you ever did that
14:52:03  <Mark> alright
14:52:09  <Mark> hold on
14:52:25  <Mark> i do remember a situation, it was actually on your server
14:52:42  <dih> Mark, you never had 1000 trains on my servers
14:52:49  <Mark> fine then, 500
14:53:02  <Mark> still, 500 clicks is a lot
14:53:06  <dih> so we just dubbled a number to make a point?
14:53:16  <Antdovu1> see for my post
14:53:17  <Mark> and takes  a lot more time than typing "500"
14:53:30  <Antdovu1> a single player game with 1800 trains in the end
14:53:38  <dih> and where did you have 500 vehicles serving one station so you could really use the tool and type 500 in that dialog window?
14:54:07  <Mark> i did - in the game i just mentioned
14:54:18  <Mark> i had a ring around the map, with trains visiting 8 cities
14:54:19  <dih> you had 500 trains serving the same route?
14:54:22  <Mark> yep
14:54:25  <dih> lol
14:54:36  <dih> and you upgraded that ring
14:54:40  <Mark> yeah - twice
14:54:47  <dih> that sounds like a game with Prince Daniel :-P
14:54:55  <Antdovu1> just accept the fact that people play openttd in different ways :)
14:54:57  <dih> or shortley after :-P
14:55:01  <Mark> could have been
14:55:09  <dih> Antdovu1, i do very well know people play in different ways
14:55:13  <Mark> it's a while ago indeed
14:55:26  <dih> Antdovu1, no need to point that out to me ;-)
14:55:39  <dih> it's a style PD used to play
14:56:02  <dih> Antdovu1, i also know that you dont usually have 500 trains serving the same route
14:56:08  <dih> it's a very rare situation
14:56:23  <Antdovu1> it doesn't matter whether it is 1 or 10 routes
14:56:24  <dih> if you have 50 trains serving the same route you are using steamers on a large map :-P
14:56:31  <Mark> so, why shouldn't it be implented?
14:56:33  <dih> Antdovu1, it does matter
14:56:37  <Mark> because it won't be used a lot?
14:56:44  <dih> if you only have 5 - 20 trains serving the same route i click
14:56:52  <dih> and you are faster clicking
14:57:08  <Mark> i'm sure there are plenty of people who'd use it, and i doubt the patch would be insanely big or complex
14:57:43  <dih> Mark, as someone who does not even look at code, that is a lovely statement to make :-D
14:58:01  <dih> but it should not be big :-P
14:58:05  <Mark> that's why i said "i doubt"
14:58:08  <Antdovu1> in its current form it isn't too large and it creates less network traffic than cloning all one by one
14:58:09  <Mark> and not "i'm sure"
14:58:54  <dih> :p
14:59:06  <dih> Antdovu1, you added a special network packet?
14:59:11  <dih> lovely
14:59:17  <dih> something the server can block :-D
14:59:26  <dih> so it's not just a client side patch
14:59:31  <Antdovu1> just changed the clone command slightly
14:59:36  <dih> i think people would love you more for making it client side only
14:59:50  <Antdovu1> no, they wouldn't -- trust me
15:00:00  <Antdovu1> I tried it that way before
15:00:23  <dih> they would - c'ause then they could use it on network games
15:00:29  <dih> this way you need a server to support it
15:00:30  <Antdovu1> it had to use an ugly hack to be even usable
15:00:42  <dih> + then all clients need to support it also
15:00:55  <Antdovu1> it ran into the same problem as copy-paste in network games
15:01:03  <dih> Antdovu1, a ugly hack? even less reason to talk about it
15:01:04  <dih> :-P
15:01:12  <dih> nice
15:01:16  <dih> gnah
15:01:17  <dih> :-P
15:01:30  <dih> anyway - i am off
15:01:33  <Antdovu1> basically you could overwhelm the server with the flood of commands
15:01:42  <dih> you always can
15:01:46  <dih> if you have a patched client
15:01:57  <Antdovu1> yeah, but the current way doesn't do that
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15:05:58  <rortom> has someone time and will to help me find a bug in my code? :\
15:06:04  <rortom> its a little one only
15:06:24  <petern> no
15:06:35  <petern> when will ror handle vehicle physics properly ;)
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15:07:06  <rortom> haha :p
15:07:31  <rortom>
15:07:45  <rortom> the top row bar resizes sometimes correctly, and sometimes not?!
15:07:47  <Rubidium> is that an euphemism for: please implement my idea?
15:07:53  <davis> that looks .. fun
15:07:57  <rortom> no
15:08:05  <rortom> its why do i have that gui bug?!
15:08:24  <rortom> i will implement my stuff on my own ...
15:08:40  <davis> what is that code for?
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15:10:33  <rortom>
15:10:59  <rortom> it should be a tab thing
15:11:19  <davis> ah
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15:12:18  <glx> rortom: in station_gui.h you have an align problem
15:12:46  <rortom> it works with resizing, but not all the time
15:14:24  <rortom> like that:
15:14:34  <Rubidium> glx: it's *everywhere* where he touched code
15:14:47  <glx> indeed ;)
15:15:01  <rortom> :|
15:15:26  <Rubidium> and to quote an old teacher of mine: "your documentation/comments are missing, so the compiler doesn't understand what you want it to do"
15:15:34  <rortom> i think putting the information into tabs would look better then now?
15:15:40  <rortom> whahahaa :p
15:15:47  <glx> rortom: your enum has duplicates
15:15:52  <rortom> oh? :|
15:16:12  <glx> no wonder it doesn't work
15:16:17  <Rubidium> glx: now you spoiled the fun... I was waiting for him telling what his bug was
15:16:26  <davis> lol
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15:17:03  <rortom> i know that it was my bug
15:17:04  <rortom> :|
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15:18:24  <rortom> also, the enum list has duplicates in its original form :\
15:19:19  <rortom> i just increased the numbers
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15:24:15  <Muxy> hello here
15:26:19  <glx> hmm ok the enum looks right indeed
15:27:43  <Doorslammer>
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15:46:15  <rortom> :D
15:46:16  <rortom>
15:46:19  <rortom> working
15:46:34  <rortom> just the small glitch with horizontal rizing is still there
15:46:38  <rortom>
15:48:04  <rortom> mh, the glitch happens if i resize vertically :\
15:50:51  <davis> :|
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15:58:10  <bottiger> Okey, I have a couple of questions. First, what determins how much money you earn? my trucks earn about 2000 each, while my opponent earns about 6000 ?
16:00:08  <Doorslammer> Profit
16:00:08  <frosch123> the cargo type, the amount of cargo transported, the distance, the speed and the vehicle running costs
16:00:50  <frosch123>
16:01:21  <bottiger> "the distance" - I suspected that. Is it good to have long (rail)roads?
16:02:03  <rortom> yep
16:02:12  <frosch123> at least it is easier with them
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16:03:56  <insulfrog> hi all :)
16:04:06  <bottiger> so that may be why I suck so hard :P
16:04:45  <rortom> lol ;)
16:05:21  <benjamingoodger> yeah, anything under ten squares between stations is likely to be inefficient
16:06:06  <Eddi|zuHause> which is a problem for tram networks without cargodest...
16:06:23  <benjamingoodger> in towns, also, it is nearly impossible to get a good spot, so I install a tram station in the centre and run trams to the outside station
16:06:25  <benjamingoodger> oh?
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16:07:32  <Antdovu> anyone want to tell me which deadly sins my fast clone patch commits?
16:07:37  <bottiger> also, does i matter how close you place your station on the resource?
16:07:42  <bottiger> or is it just in or out?
16:07:55  <benjamingoodger> bottiger: I think as long as it's within the station's catchment area you're OK
16:08:43  <bottiger> benjamingoodger: ok
16:09:12  <bottiger> and at last - what's the point of "platform length" ? just larger coverage area?
16:09:24  <benjamingoodger> and longer trains..?
16:09:46  <Eddi|zuHause> trains that are longer than the platform take much longer to load
16:09:55  <insulfrog> the platform lengh is dependant on your train length
16:09:55  <bottiger> ohh
16:09:58  <bottiger> thanks you
16:10:07  <benjamingoodger> as well as blocking the interchanges outside the station
16:11:50  <benjamingoodger> Eddi|zuHause: does cargodest solve the problem of having massive imbalances in passenger numbers between cities and towns?
16:12:31  <insulfrog> I have a few questions to ask myself, has anyone heard of the OTTD spinoff?
16:12:37  <Aylomen> yes, me
16:12:46  <Eddi|zuHause> not directly, but there are measures in place that people prefer "bigger stations", whatever measure there is to determine that
16:12:49  <benjamingoodger> for instance, a train starting at a city may leave full and leave some behind, and dump everyone onto the next stop, and then run empty for the next few stops until returning to the city
16:13:14  <benjamingoodger> OTTD spinoff?
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16:13:34  <Eddi|zuHause> "the" OTTD spinoff?
16:13:45  <Aylomen> are there more spinoffs?
16:13:46  *** Zahl [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:13:46  *** Zahl_ is now known as Zahl
16:13:53  <ln-> spinoff as in tv series where a new series is made based on one or two characters of the original?
16:13:54  <insulfrog> there is a thread about it on the OTTD forums
16:14:03  <Eddi|zuHause> you're not talking about "Transpoerter 0.1", are you?
16:14:16  <Eddi|zuHause> -e
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16:15:24  <insulfrog> its the ' Open TTD Challenge Spinoff 2 Beta'
16:15:58  <Aylomen>
16:16:11  <frosch123> "2 beta". is that the ancient one, or the newly started?
16:16:19  <rortom> uhm is there a string where i can just display the cargo's name and not the amount?
16:16:41  <frosch123> grep for {CARGO}
16:16:48  <rortom> atm im using STR_0009
16:16:55  <frosch123> in english.txt
16:16:55  <insulfrog> thats the one :)
16:16:56  <rortom> done that, saw that
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16:17:16  <benjamingoodger> hmm, looks fun
16:17:56  <insulfrog> I am trying to run it, as I would like to have a go at it myself
16:18:26  <insulfrog> however, its looking for various grf files
16:18:49  <insulfrog> one of them is the 'autorail.grf'
16:19:09  <Aylomen> it's based on a very old revision
16:19:25  <Eddi|zuHause> rortom: the build vehicle window must somehow create the list of refittable cargo types
16:19:36  <Aperculum> so, euro isn't allowed unit until 1999 in game?
16:19:54  <Aperculum> currency*
16:20:07  <benjamingoodger> sounds sensible
16:20:16  <Aylomen> I think, it is 2002
16:20:33  <Eddi|zuHause> euro was introduced in 2002 in most countries
16:20:35  <Aperculum> but euro became official in 1999}
16:20:57  <rortom> Eddi|zuHause: indeed, thanks for the tip :)
16:21:01  <Eddi|zuHause> it's the Y2K bug backwards
16:21:09  <Aperculum> cool
16:21:20  <Eddi|zuHause> you can't set values below 2000
16:21:30  <benjamingoodger> gordon brown says: "my criteria for joining the eurozone is that the pound must be worth less than the euro" ~~~ on this basis, the UK will be printing its first euro banknotes tomorrow afternoon
16:21:46  <insulfrog> hmm... sounds like I need to do some extra digging around
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16:22:28  <rortom> uhm, as far as i see we have SHORTCARGO and CARGO
16:22:45  <rortom> which both contains an amount?
16:24:35  <Eddi|zuHause> how about you feed it a generic {STRING} parameter?
16:24:55  <rortom> good idea :)
16:25:07  <rortom> far easier then creating a new type ;)
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16:27:53  <frosch123> DrawStringCentered(x + 6 + cg_ofst, y + cg_ofst, cs->abbrev, TC_BLACK); <- that one is used in the station list
16:28:24  <frosch123> CargoSpec contains the stringid for both the full name and the abbreviation
16:28:59  <frosch123> so, yes, you can use the stringid directly
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16:35:15  <rortom> ah, thanks :)
16:40:14  <rortom>
16:40:18  <rortom> that worked thanks :)
16:40:26  <rortom> what you think of my idea
16:40:34  <rortom> i think its pretty good space usage
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16:41:13  <rortom> i should mark the current selected button
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16:49:58  <ln-> ciao a |AWAY
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16:53:18  <davis-> rortom
16:53:25  <davis-> i like that idea .
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17:01:21  <rortom> thanks ;)
17:05:18  <Eddi|zuHause> really, the produced cargo should also appear in the station window... it's a real oversight to only do that for the build station window
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17:08:31  <rortom> mh, good point
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17:09:09  <rortom> how to create toggle buttons btw?
17:09:29  <rortom> manually -> this->LowerWidget(SVW_WAITINGBTN); ?
17:10:40  <rortom> SetWidgetLoweredState ?
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17:16:27  <rortom> working :)
17:18:05  <frosch123> when you are doing stats, you could also implement station variable 69 :p
17:18:17  <rortom>
17:18:50  <rortom> oh, thanks for the hint :)
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17:19:24  <rortom> maybe put accepts/produces under one tab?
17:19:34  <rortom> but how to call the tab then?
17:19:50  <frosch123> "Cargos"
17:20:06  <rortom> ok, good idea :)
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17:20:57  <frosch123> btw. the stats looks crowded, maybe put it in a tooltip when clicking on the accepted/provided cargos
17:21:08  <frosch123> -s
17:21:56  <rortom> :\
17:22:07  <rortom> i wanted to provide lots of stats
17:22:15  <rortom> thatfor i want to use the scroll area
17:22:54  <rortom> like
17:22:59  <rortom> goods / year
17:22:59  <frosch123> maybe add "generate pdf report" button?
17:23:03  <rortom> :|
17:23:13  <rortom> if you have a big station
17:23:29  <rortom> how do you know how much stuff is transferred there per month?
17:24:15  <frosch123> isn't goods per month enough?
17:24:33  <frosch123> industries also do not have more info
17:26:15  <frosch123> I also do not understand the ratings window
17:26:28  <rortom> why?
17:26:43  <frosch123> the cargo rating should go into the "provided cargo" tab
17:26:59  <rortom> mhm
17:27:17  <rortom> so we have just a cargo tab
17:27:22  <rortom> with accepted cargo
17:27:28  <rortom> and its rating
17:27:32  <rortom> and provided cargo
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17:29:17  <frosch123> well, maybe two tabs for "outgoing" cargo (with ratings and waiting cargo) and "ingoing" cargo (only the cargo)
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17:29:38  <frosch123> er, "incoming"
17:29:41  <rortom> yes, i will see what looks good
17:30:23  <frosch123> well, the disadvantage of having so many tabs is that you have to switch all the time
17:31:27  <frosch123> hmm, but true, waiting cargo is not necessarily outgoing, it can also be transferred, especially when using cargodest
17:33:25  <frosch123> maybe also show cargos, which would be provided, when a vehicle would arrive. maybe "no rating yet"
17:33:36  <rortom> mh, where can i find the code to determine the provided cargo
17:33:46  <rortom> (produced one)
17:34:08  <frosch123> the build gui shows that
17:34:13  <frosch123> so look how it is done there
17:35:08  <frosch123> however, the "ratings" is basically the "provided", except of the "no rating yet" :p
17:35:11  <rortom> just found :)
17:35:16  <rortom> yes
17:35:54  <rortom> if (cargo[i] >= (supplies ? 1U : 8U)) {
17:36:01  <rortom> obfuscated code FTW :|
17:37:14  *** Sacro [~ben@adsl-87-102-39-137.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
17:37:32  <Rubidium> that's not obfuscated
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17:40:06  <Eddi|zuHause> i see at least two magic numbers
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17:40:57  <Eddi|zuHause> unless you mean that in the way of "that's not a knife... THAT is a knife!" :p
17:42:02  <frosch123> the 1 has the unit "number of tiles providing the cargo", the 8 has the unit "1/8 of tile acceptance"
17:43:08  *** davis is now known as davis--
17:43:22  <frosch123> so it just the usual mixing of different units in one formula, which causes space probes to miss their target
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17:50:56  <rortom> uhm
17:51:04  <rortom> thats going to be more complicated?
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17:51:13  <rortom> it just provides DrawStationCoverageAreaText
17:51:29  <rortom> but no function to detect the provided cargo for a whole station
17:51:31  <rortom> :\
17:51:47  <frosch123> where do the ratings come from?
17:53:02  <rortom> const GoodsEntry *ge = &st->goods[i];
17:53:05  <rortom> SetDParam(2, ge->rating * 101 >> 8);
17:54:13  <rortom> the struct is not fed with the actual production data i guess
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17:58:48  <frosch123> take a look at UpdateStationWaiting
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18:00:17  <frosch123> i.e. you could just add another bit PROVIDED in addition to PICKUP and ACCEPTANCE
18:01:09  <frosch123> PROVIDED would need setting in "               if (_settings_game.order.selectgoods && st->goods[type].last_speed == 0) continue; // Selectively servicing stations, and not this one"
18:01:52  <frosch123> though that line would need to be moved a little downwards
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18:04:20  <rortom> uhm
18:04:28  <rortom> let me see if i understand that ;)
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18:07:29  <rortom> mh
18:07:36  <rortom> seems thats a little too complex for me
18:07:49  <rortom> could you provide me with some little patch? :)
18:08:11  <frosch123> no, I have to deal with plane crashes
18:08:18  <rortom> ok ;)
18:08:33  <rortom> thanks for the hints so far
18:09:15  <Chrill> poke Brianetta or Sacro
18:10:09  <Chrill> Server's down and the dear sarah_pilot is not in #autopilot! :O
18:13:19  <rortom>
18:13:39  <Brianetta> yeas
18:13:58  <Brianetta> I saved it, then decided I'd rather go and have my tea and read a book than immediately restart the game
18:14:15  <Brianetta> This way, I get longer before somebody pages me
18:15:50  <Brianetta> !version
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18:15:51  <Brianetta> !version
18:15:51  *** Brianetta was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [Wrong channel. Retry in #openttdcoop.]
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18:15:55  <Brianetta> !version
18:15:55  *** Brianetta was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [Wrong channel. Retry in #openttdcoop.]
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18:16:03  <Brianetta> !version
18:16:03  *** Brianetta was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [Wrong channel. Retry in #openttdcoop.]
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18:17:03  <rortom> :)
18:17:05  <rortom> working now
18:17:17  <rortom> just supplied goods missing
18:17:24  <rortom> i fixed the glitch as well :)
18:18:19  <rortom> (its far from done)
18:19:26  <rortom>
18:22:07  <welshdragon-pc> !version
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18:22:19  *** welshdragon-pc [~desktop@adsl-83-100-138-26.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
18:22:20  <welshdragon-pc> fail
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18:49:28  <Eddi|zuHause> in the accepting part, there is no empty line after "Nothing"
18:50:30  <Eddi|zuHause> and the text colours should be the same in both sections
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19:07:24  <Aperculum> so, why do I need original ttd .grf files, can't you just create free ones to remove that requirement?
19:07:45  <ln-> "just"
19:07:50  <Ammler> there are
19:09:23  <ln-> Aperculum: how many hours of work would you estimate it would take to "just" create new graphics?
19:10:20  <rortom> Eddi|zuHause: agreed, but i think thats details ;)
19:11:49  <Aperculum> ln-, is it bigger work than it was to create rest of openttd?
19:12:06  <Aperculum> it's graphics, not code
19:12:58  <planetmaker> have you tried either, Aperculum ?
19:13:46  <ln-> Aperculum: why don't you create some graphics and we'll see how much have you finished by tomorrow? you have 24 hours.
19:14:00  <planetmaker> :) good proposal.
19:14:15  <ln-> i don't even expect you to have a complete graphics set, but something.
19:15:46  <Ammler> well, if you know, how zeph
19:15:59  <Ammler> works, it might be possible in 24 hours :-P
19:16:13  <planetmaker> :P
19:16:48  <ln-> Aperculum: besides, a lot of the of the openttd code was not created (by this project anyway), but rather it was directly taken from TTD by disassembling the exe.
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19:17:00  <Antdovu> I could easily create new and very artsy graphics for openttd in 24h
19:17:35  <planetmaker> yeah. It'd look lovely, I assume?
19:17:40  <Antdovu> I would call the style "rand()"
19:17:41  <rortom>
19:17:44  <Antdovu> yes, it would :P
19:17:48  <planetmaker> :P
19:17:49  <rortom> lol
19:20:34  <rortom> any improvement ideas?
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19:25:51  <frosch123> rortom: I doubt that those stations supply all cargos
19:26:03  <rortom> thats the problem
19:26:13  <rortom> i need to add a new feature for that :\
19:26:18  <rortom> not fully done
19:26:28  <rortom> but it shows the direction :)
19:31:47  <frosch123> DaleStan, petern: is the "cc" field of vehicle variable 42 suitable for anything, when the cargo is not translated?
19:42:04  *** svippy [] has joined #openttd
19:42:29  <DaleStan> frosch123: cc field of var 42 is never translated.
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19:43:31  <frosch123> yes, but what shall a vehicle grf do with it? it could be any cargo
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20:29:57  <tarzicius> Üdv nektek.
20:30:25  <ln-> kadv zikzak.
20:30:47  <tarzicius> Valaki el tudná mondani, hogyan kell az Transport Tyccon Deluxe (OPEN TTDX)-et telepíteni openSUSE LINUX 10.3-ban?
20:31:09  <tarzicius> nagyon fontos lenne.
20:31:48  <ln-> ban? banna dig så hårt.
20:32:01  *** Char2 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:32:01  <tarzicius> Tessék?
20:32:07  *** Char2 [] has joined #openttd
20:32:23  <tarzicius> Nem értem.
20:32:38  <ln-> SitÀhÀn minÀkin.
20:33:14  <dih> english please ln- :-D
20:33:20  <davis--> !
20:33:45  <tarzicius> I want to play wit TTDX in openSUSE LINUX 10.3.
20:33:53  <tarzicius> How can I play?
20:34:01  <tarzicius> How can I install it?
20:34:15  <ln-> You need Wine. Then you can possibly install it from the CD.
20:34:35  <tarzicius> Already I have installed wine.
20:35:14  <tarzicius> What I have to do?
20:35:31  <ln-> Then you need to buy TTDX from e.g. Amazon.
20:36:04  <tarzicius> So. have You got it?
20:36:10  *** Char [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:36:20  <tarzicius> have You got it?
20:36:39  *** Char [] has joined #openttd
20:36:40  <ln-> I bought one through, but I haven't opened the package.
20:37:44  <tarzicius> Shall You send me TTDX?
20:37:51  <davis--> arnt there links in the tt-forums?
20:38:45  <tarzicius> ok.
20:38:49  *** tarzicius [~tarzicius@] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20:38:55  <davis--> o.o
20:41:04  <rortom> mh, in the station logic
20:41:13  <rortom> UpdateStationWaiting is used for generated good
20:41:16  <rortom> by factories?
20:41:30  <rortom> whats used to update the good that arrive via train or so?
20:41:50  <davis--> transferwaiting?
20:42:05  <frosch123> those are not "supplied" at least :)
20:43:52  <rortom> mh
20:44:01  <rortom> so we have logically three categories?
20:44:12  <rortom> incoming (target station)
20:44:19  <rortom> outgoing (source)
20:44:25  <rortom> and transferring?
20:44:51  <davis--> logical yes .. i think
20:45:09  <frosch123> you have "outgoing with rating", "incoming as acceptance" and "waiting"
20:46:37  <frosch123> rortom: take a look at the images at the bottom:
20:46:58  <frosch123> you do not want to distinguish between produced waiting and transferred waiting cargo
20:46:58  <Wolf01> 'night
20:47:02  <frosch123> night
20:47:03  *** Wolf01 [] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
20:47:12  <ln-> frosch123: you succeeded \o/
20:47:24  <frosch123> yeah, but for Wolf was not enough time :)
20:54:40  <arachnid> Do the OTTD routing algos build an abstract graph in memory, or work directly from the track etc information?
20:54:45  <arachnid> Just out of curiosity
20:55:54  <Aali> arachnid: cargodest builds a graph out of order lists
20:56:04  <Aali> regular ottd doesn't care
20:56:14  <arachnid> Sorry, I meant the train routing algorithm in OTTD
20:56:21  <arachnid> Not the cargo routing algorithm in Cargodest
20:56:22  <frosch123> yapf has has a cache, the other path finders not
20:56:27  <Aali> well thats up to the pathfinder
20:56:39  <arachnid> frosch123: Ah, so even yapf only caches?
20:58:10  <frosch123> well the other pathfinders always start from scratch, and as you always have to use a edge at most once, there is no point in creating a graph
20:58:26  <arachnid> You could create a single graph for all trains to use
20:58:32  <arachnid> And update it when the track layout changes
20:58:38  <frosch123> that is what yapf does
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20:58:50  <frosch123> but only to some limited extent
20:59:01  <frosch123> as the costs of the edges change over time
20:59:08  <arachnid> Right. I meant you could maintain the whole thing in memory authoritatively
20:59:10  <Aali> IIRC, yapf keeps track of "segments"
20:59:24  <Aali> instead of individual pieces of track
20:59:32  <Aali> but its not much more complicated than that
20:59:33  <arachnid> Aali: That's what I was meaning when talking about a graph
20:59:50  <arachnid> frosch123: How do the costs change?
21:00:12  <frosch123> yapf has penalties for red signals which the train could reach near future. those change their states
21:00:22  <arachnid> Ah, right
21:00:45  <arachnid> Well, you could still maintain the graph, and apply per-pathfinder penalties. :)
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21:01:07  <arachnid> I'm mostly just curious how it differs from how I'd attack the problem. It's obviously pretty efficient already. :)
21:01:30  <Aali> you could always take a look at the code
21:01:55  <frosch123> well, yapf is the most complicated one. I do hardly know all details of it. I only know that the other path finders start from scratch and work directly with the tracks
21:01:57  <arachnid> I tried that. A lot of digging to get started, though. :)
21:02:27  <frosch123> though yapf sucks for ships, as the graph is just too big
21:03:12  <arachnid> Hm
21:04:16  <arachnid> You'd need some way to simplify the graph, that's for sure
21:04:21  *** Dred_furst [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
21:04:38  <frosch123> the recommended pathfinder for ships is still the original pathfinder. it only considers a maximum of 4 turns to reach the destination. that is fast, but you need a lot of buoys in non-straight terrain
21:05:12  <arachnid> yeah, it tends to result in some pretty stupid behaviour :P
21:05:25  <arachnid> It's an interesting problem, though :)
21:06:03  <rortom>
21:06:06  <rortom> stats working :D
21:06:16  * Sacro wants RoR to work with his g25
21:06:25  <arachnid> Though given that ship routes change far less often than train networks, you could probably use a naive dijkstra-based pathfinder and save the best path - and share it between all ships that share a leg. :)
21:06:53  <arachnid> rortom: looks good
21:07:09  <Antdovu> will you actually be able to show the amount of incoming cargo?
21:07:22  <rortom> yep
21:07:29  <Antdovu> awesome :)
21:07:34  <rortom> ;)
21:07:56  <arachnid> I don't know how you'd know when to recalculate. You could force one if a piece of land obstructs the route, but how would you know when to look for a _more_ efficient one?
21:08:16  <Antdovu> it's a shame when your busiest station is at a power station and you have no idea how much coal is delivered...
21:08:43  <frosch123> arachnid: oh, I forgot. the main problem of ship pathfinding is, that the paths are not saved. pathfinding is restarted in every junction, which means every tile for ships
21:09:08  <arachnid> frosch123: Right. I'm just speculating about a dedicated pathfinder that _could_ save paths. :)
21:09:19  *** Eddi|zuHause [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
21:09:22  <arachnid> Unless there's some architectural barrier to doing that?
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21:09:49  *** Nazcafan [] has joined #openttd
21:09:53  <Nazcafan> hello
21:09:57  <Antdovu> Surely it is possible to have a better pathfinder for ships
21:10:07  <frosch123> well, you could store the paths, and recompute them only, when some player action modifies the drivable water
21:10:13  <rortom> Antdovu: thats the idea i had as well about the power station ;)
21:10:19  <Nazcafan> I have trouble when using dock -> train transferts
21:10:33  <Nazcafan> I chose transfert instead of "unload"
21:10:39  <arachnid> frosch123: Right. But you don't want to recalculate every time any piece of water changes.
21:10:45  <Nazcafan> however, the ship keeps swallowing back the oil
21:11:08  <frosch123> arachnid: that is far less often than a ship reaches a new tile :)
21:11:10  <Antdovu> you need to set it to transfer and unload
21:11:27  <planetmaker> Nazcafan: choose 'don't load' or 'no loading'
21:11:29  <arachnid> frosch123: True, but if you have many ships, every 'click' of earthmoving could lead to a _lot_ of routefinding. :P
21:11:38  <planetmaker> additionally to 'transfer'
21:11:47  <Nazcafan> planetmaker, how
21:11:49  <arachnid> Though admittedly even with many ships, probably the number of unique legs is still low
21:11:55  <frosch123> still, it is in any case less than currently
21:11:58  <Antdovu> there are a limited number of interesting paths for ships
21:12:20  <arachnid> frosch123: But grouped with user actions, could lead to significant latency when trying to earthmove. :)
21:12:37  <Antdovu> but that extra info would be useful
21:13:02  <Antdovu> in multiplayer some people block ships by raising ground...
21:13:06  <frosch123> well, you can add a "invalidate flag" to the stored path of all ships, which would be evaluated when a ship reaches the next tile
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21:13:24  <arachnid> Maybe I'm overestimating the amount of pathfinding required even for large numbers of ships
21:13:50  <arachnid> frosch123: True. In fact, a ship could validate all the tiles along its precalculated route are still drivable as it crosses each tile
21:13:52  <Antdovu> do a large game with a lot of ships? :P
21:13:56  <planetmaker> Nazcafan: at the load button: you choose 'no loading' at the unload button you obviously already chose transfer
21:14:12  <arachnid> And recalculate only if it encounters land, or at the end of a leg if there's been earthmoving
21:14:17  <planetmaker> but might be that it is now in the recent nightlies different than in the stables, not sure...
21:15:21  <planetmaker> so you should end up with "transfer and leave empty"
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21:18:15  <frosch123> night
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21:22:18  <dih> <Antdovu> in multiplayer some people block ships by raising ground... <- some people try to clear ships paths and they 'flood' the entire map
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21:24:03  <rortom> uhm
21:24:16  <rortom> i need to find my hook points in order to setup good stats
21:24:27  <rortom> where would i put them in the best way?
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21:25:53  <rortom> UpdateStationWaiting is maybe too general and cannot distinguish bestween incoming/outgoing :\
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21:31:29  <Aperculum> is there a way to increase car/train reliability?
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21:32:45  <ln-> you should be busy drawing graphics for tomorrow.
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21:34:47  <Aperculum> ln-, did I ask it "you should immediately do n"
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21:35:15  <Aperculum> my point is that openttd isn't really going to be free until all components are free
21:35:23  <rortom> orly? :p
21:35:36  <planetmaker> Aperculum: you should read the 100+ pages thread on OpenGFX.
21:35:47  <planetmaker> or rather threads.
21:35:58  <planetmaker> And the one on the sound replacement project
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21:36:37  <Aperculum> so there is people working on this
21:36:39  <Aperculum> great
21:37:13  <Aperculum> and what did I get when I asked for this "draw sum for tomorrow plz"
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21:39:45  <ln-> you showed how badly you underestimate the amount of work required, and how little you appreciate graphics artists' work.
21:39:56  <planetmaker> indeed.
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21:42:42  <Aperculum> no, I just asked why it's not being done and you could have said "there are over 7000 sprites in original graphics files" instead you just started talking about me drawing some images that didn't really contain any information why
21:42:50  <Aperculum> you know, politeness
21:42:57  <Rubidium> Aperculum: nothing because people have been working on a replacement set for years and it still isn't finished. And with the current progress it won't be finished tomorrow neither
21:43:17  <Aperculum> I didn't mean to undermine the work there is, and I'm sorry if I gave that impression
21:44:52  <Aperculum> also someone could have said there is people working on it already which I didn't know when I asked
21:44:58  <Rubidium> and it probably also had something to do with the way you asked the question
21:45:10  <Aperculum> probably
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21:45:21  <Aperculum> but the response could have been more helpful also
21:46:06  <dih> <Aperculum> ln-, is it bigger work than it was to create rest of openttd? <- that implies that in your eye's OpenTTD simply could not have been a lot of work
21:46:35  <dih> just the wrong approach to get a decent answer
21:46:36  <dih> imo
21:47:05  <Aperculum> I don't see how that implies that openttd isn't a lot of work
21:47:27  <dih> you used the word "just" about graphics replacement and came up with that line!
21:47:55  <dih> i serisouly dont see where that is a uplifting, sayting 'thanks', showing appreciation
21:47:57  <Aperculum> I admit, I could have chosen my words more carefully
21:48:01  <dih> :-P
21:48:02  <dih> yep
21:48:04  <dih> :-P
21:48:11  <dih>   ^ tripple p
21:48:51  <dih> you could have asked if there was such a project, rather than asking why it's not done
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21:49:23  <Aperculum> and answer could have contained link to that project since they knew it was being done
21:49:26  <Eddi|zuHause> <rortom> i need to find my hook points in order to setup good stats <- what about LoadUnload* or something?
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21:50:20  <Aperculum> but enough of this, I admit my mistake with my sentence and hope people try to be more helpful with their answers although asker isn't so thoughtful
21:50:37  <Aperculum> :)
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21:51:33  <Eddi|zuHause> since when are we here to give helpful answers?
21:52:08  <rortom> Eddi|zuHause: i thought about it, but there should be a better one i guess?
21:52:48  <glx> rortom: how long before 0.36 ? ;)
21:52:52  <Eddi|zuHause> well, that's the place where cargo actually gets loaded into the vehicles... just have to sum that up
21:53:04  <rortom> glx: GRML
21:53:17  <rortom> yep ;)
21:53:20  <planetmaker> g'night folks
21:53:31  <rortom> ge->cargo.MoveTo(...) is the main thing i guess
21:53:33  <rortom> nite
21:53:53  <Eddi|zuHause> and if you want stats about how much the industries produce, just hook into the acceptance loop, and sum up all surrounding industries' production
21:54:20  <rortom> one patch after another ... ;)
21:54:57  <Eddi|zuHause> NO! EVERYTHING! RIGHT NOW!1!111!einself
21:57:04  <rortom> :|
21:57:16  <rortom> not that its likely that my stuff gets merged
21:57:27  <rortom> but that makes it even more unlikely
21:57:47  <Aperculum> but you do it anyway, that's the spirit!
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22:01:33  <Nite_Owl> Hello all
22:02:01  <Aperculum> hi
22:02:34  <Eddi|zuHause> why do i have the feeling that Aperculum has absolutely no clue what he is talking about?
22:03:15  <benjamingoodger> Eddi|zuHause: because you and I share a telepathic bond
22:03:18  <Aperculum> oh but I have some glue here
22:03:25  <rortom> aehm
22:03:31  <Aperculum> ;)
22:03:42  <rortom> at some point everyones new ;)
22:04:08  <Aperculum> Eddi|zuHause, clue concerning what?
22:04:17  <Eddi|zuHause> see?
22:04:29  <benjamingoodger> ¬.¬
22:04:33  <Aperculum> graphics, coding?
22:05:00  <rortom>
22:05:08  <rortom> the hooks are bad :(
22:05:22  <rortom> somehow i must understand the cargo flow first ;)
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22:12:17  <rortom> agrh
22:12:20  * rortom is stupid
22:12:29  <rortom> found a bad bug :\
22:12:44  <dih> in your kitchen?
22:12:54  *** mortal [] has quit []
22:12:56  <rortom> in my toaster :|
22:13:20  <rortom> btw
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22:13:28  <rortom> how to use the scrollbars?
22:13:37  <rortom> do i have to care myself about clipping?
22:13:44  <rortom> and moving, etc?
22:20:58  <rortom> :D
22:21:01  <rortom> got it working :)
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22:22:22  <rortom>
22:22:22  <rortom> :D
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22:32:31  <dih> rortom is monologing
22:32:34  <dih> :-P
22:33:12  <rortom> yeah :(
22:33:12  <CIA-5> OpenTTD: truebrain * r14570 /branches/noai/bin/ai/ (regression/regression.nut wrightai/main.nut): [NoAI] -Fix: add two ';' in .nut files, to make NAIL (v2) accept those files
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22:33:18  <rortom>
22:33:30  <rortom>
22:33:33  <rortom> working good now
22:37:09  <rortom> so
22:37:18  <rortom> cleaning up now :\
22:38:02  <rortom> what is the convention if i want to add new strings?
22:38:17  <rortom> just continue the numbering?
22:38:57  <petern> ignore the numbers
22:41:37  <rortom> ok, so just add like i wish?
22:41:51  <rortom> like ->
22:42:05  <glx> numbers are from old strings (and don't match for most of them)
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22:50:20  <rortom> done:
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22:50:34  <rortom> should i ask if anyone wants to test? :|
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