Log for #openttd on 11th November 2008:
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15:09:35  *** SpComb^ [] has joined #openttd
15:10:02  <keyweed> the problems is, efficient usually isn't pretty and pretty usually isn't efficient
15:10:07  <keyweed> *problem
15:10:46  <Eddi|zuHause> some of my junctions are pretty and somewhat efficient
15:11:28  <Eddi|zuHause> and in many cases without using bridges ;)
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15:11:55  <keyweed> well. show us the magic
15:12:03  * keyweed loves openttd screenshots
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15:12:09  <Doorslammer> Bottle glass, glass bottle...
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15:12:16  <Doorslammer> Thats magic
15:12:25  <Eddi|zuHause> of course they don't have nearly the amount of throughput as a junction like in the picture...
15:12:29  <keyweed> regular expressions, that's magic
15:12:49  <Eddi|zuHause> Klein bottles are magic ;)
15:12:56  <Avdg>
15:14:08  <Eddi|zuHause> i had a pre-PBS savegame somewhere...
15:14:11  <Eddi|zuHause> let me search
15:15:55  <Eddi|zuHause>,%202.%20Jan%201972.sav
15:16:19  <qball> is pbs in svn/git now?
15:16:25  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
15:16:31  <qball> that is so great news
15:16:36  <qball> I loved playing with pbs
15:16:36  <keyweed> hmpfz. not allowed to run openttd here at work
15:16:46  <qball> long time ago :D
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15:17:04  <petern> when it didn't work too well
15:17:06  <Avdg> ^^
15:17:18  <glx> qball: please note it's not the same PBS as the very ole version
15:17:18  * qball hasn't been here in years?
15:17:23  <qball> owh
15:17:33  <qball> can still multiple trains enter station
15:17:34  <qball> at the same time
15:17:36  <qball> and so
15:17:41  <petern> well yeah, it's pbs :p
15:17:45  <qball> great
15:17:55  <petern> hmm, it's been there for 3 months
15:18:14  <qball> haven't played unstable for a long long long time
15:18:21  <glx> the rule is easy, place a pbs signal in safe waiting places only
15:19:43  <Sacro> ARGH MY GOD A QBALL
15:20:03  <Eddi|zuHause> the rule for converting is even easier: remove all exit signals
15:20:05  <Avdg> ^^
15:20:20  <Avdg> or delete the hole map :p
15:20:28  <glx> Sacro wants a KICK ?
15:20:29  * qball slowly backs away
15:20:34  <Sacro> :(
15:20:43  * qball hugs Sacro
15:20:47  <qball> don't kick him
15:20:50  <Eddi|zuHause> if you have a hole in the map, you have more serious problems, i'm afraid :p
15:20:58  <qball> ha ha ha
15:21:19  <Avdg> yesterday i've been kicked without an reason... someone has tf a lot, so the admin has kicked everybody, not fun...
15:21:27  <Avdg> even without warning...
15:21:33  * petern wonders if 6000 processes is a bit too much
15:21:51  <glx> depends on the system I think
15:21:52  <Rubidium> depends on the case
15:22:10  <Eddi|zuHause>,%2024.%20Jan%201951.png <- that might be a nice shot
15:22:17  <Avdg> 6000 processor of 1 hertz :)
15:22:42  <petern> processes
15:22:48  <Avdg> yeah, ty
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15:23:38  <Avdg> how much processors will you need to program all these processors (if they are at the same speed) :p
15:23:57  <Rubidium> Avdg: depends on the processor
15:24:04  <Avdg> lol
15:24:17  <petern> wtf
15:24:34  <davis--> i cant ever motivate myself to play a SP game
15:24:48  <Avdg> SP?
15:24:59  <qball> single player
15:25:11  <Avdg> lol, im bored to play SP
15:25:29  <Avdg> i want some fun in multiplayer :)
15:25:41  <Rubidium> Avdg: 47 processors and you've got a thread per process
15:26:43  <Avdg> like 40 trains crossing on a junction at a unsignalled 8-form
15:27:03  <Avdg> 8-track if you dont understand :p
15:27:20  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't understand
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15:28:07  <Avdg> wait..
15:28:20  <Aali> Eddi|zuHause: looks like you would have problems with jams in that game, ..if only you had more trains :)
15:28:59  <Eddi|zuHause> i've had quite some problems with jams, yes, which is why there's such an elaborate holding system before that terminal station
15:29:09  <Aali> its beautiful to look at though
15:29:53  <Eddi|zuHause>,%2024.%20Dez%201939.png <- i've had more jams with this station, which is impossible to presignal correctly
15:30:49  <Eddi|zuHause> but it's alright with path signals
15:31:11  <Eddi|zuHause> which is why that's the first station i converted when the patch came out ;)
15:32:31  <Aali> yeah, PBS is really great for long-signal-distance low-traffic tracks
15:32:50  <Aali> practically does all the work for you ;)
15:33:29  <qball> hmmmm I should try it out
15:33:30  <qball> soon
15:33:43  <Avdg> where should i upload it :/
15:33:51  <Avdg> forgot the site :p
15:35:12  <Eddi|zuHause>,%2030.%20Jun%201981.png <- well, and then there's this kludge of a station
15:35:19  <Eddi|zuHause> that's already the PBS version
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15:36:00  <Avdg>
15:36:12  <Avdg> and it isnt crashing :)
15:36:15  <Sacro> der hosenbugler
15:36:16  <Sacro> hmm
15:37:58  <Avdg> like it?
15:38:22  <Avdg> look at the cross under the bridge... i mean that track :)
15:40:41  <ln-> *isn't
15:41:19  <murr4y> Avdg
15:41:23  <murr4y> do you run the maarten servers ?
15:41:31  <Avdg> yeah
15:41:33  <Eddi|zuHause>,%208.%20Mai%201931.png <- not a junction, but it's one of the most beautiful shots i have ;)
15:41:39  <Avdg> maarten was online too :)
15:41:54  <murr4y> oh you're not maarten ?
15:42:04  <murr4y> but you run them with him ?
15:42:15  <murr4y> you're doing a great job, i love playing on them :)
15:45:00  <Antdovu> you know what is missing from maarten servers? trams
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15:48:31  <petern> i dunno, people with numbers in their name...
15:48:32  *** ReiNDeer [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:48:44  <Eddi|zuHause> :p
15:49:02  *** qball is now known as Qba11
15:49:37  <Qba11> What is wron giwth number in my name
15:49:50  <Qba11> damn causing type imparement allready
15:50:43  <petern> see!
15:52:38  * Qba11 goes back to his corner *again*
15:53:01  <petern> balls don't have corners
15:53:18  <Qba11> ssshhh
15:53:24  <Avdg> 0O what is zero?
15:53:31  <petern> 0
15:53:33  <Avdg> the first or the second one?
15:53:36  <Qba11> first
15:53:39  <Avdg> :p
15:53:46  <Antdovu> :(
15:53:54  <Qba11> o0o
15:54:09  <Antdovu> "the first or the second one?": true
15:54:22  <Avdg> yeah, the first one :p
15:54:36  <petern> was it some kind of quiz then?
15:54:45  <Qba11> pretty hard one
15:54:51  <Qba11> had to grab my calculator
15:56:19  <Avdg> who has used his 6000 processors :p
15:57:20  <glx> Avdg: processes != processors
15:57:55  <Avdg> oops :/
15:58:02  * Qba11 grabs his smart-dust cluster
15:58:13  <Avdg> no, processors :)
15:58:34  <Avdg> [16:21:38] petern wonders if 6000 processes is a bit too much
15:58:37  *** Singaporekid [] has joined #openttd
15:59:14  <Qba11> hi Singaporekid
15:59:21  <petern> ..
15:59:22  <Singaporekid> HELLO
15:59:29  <Singaporekid> WHAT BRINGS THIS GREETING
15:59:35  <Qba11> your cap frenzy
15:59:41  <Singaporekid> Oh, okay.
16:00:02  *** Sacro [~ben@adsl-87-102-39-137.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
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16:01:38  <Avdg> i'm exiting who will solve my reported bug :)
16:03:37  <Antdovu> this is not a bug, it is a feature ;)
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16:05:26  <Avdg> :/
16:05:38  <Avdg> are you sure?
16:06:08  <Avdg>
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16:08:15  <Antdovu> no :P
16:08:37  <Antdovu> but it would be a good reason to declare it fixed :P
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16:10:53  <kazexe> files needed to run openttd
16:11:18  <Antdovu>
16:11:28  <Sacro> tr*.grf
16:11:30  <Qba11> nice to the point
16:13:58  <Avdg> lol
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16:24:17  <kazexe> what files areneeded to run openttd
16:25:31  <petern> the original data files from the cd, and those supplied in the download
16:25:50  *** Singaporekid [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
16:26:53  <ln-> and system C library
16:26:53  <Swallow> I can confirm that FS2403 is an undocumented feature a.k.a. bug
16:30:07  <Swallow> Looking into it right now
16:30:07  <Avdg> i think it is a bug...
16:30:07  <Antdovu> I managed to reproduce it as well
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16:34:16  <Avdg> ty anyway :/
16:34:17  <gregor> !svn
16:34:17  *** [com]buster [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
16:34:17  <Avdg> lol
16:34:17  <gregor> Avdg, yeah, wrong channel, I know :P
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16:34:25  <Avdg> i hate that too :)
16:34:37  <Sacro> try !password
16:35:02  <glx> is !svn from the same chan as !password?
16:36:01  *** Avdg [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
16:37:43  <frosch123> just write "don't know which channel, but not HERE!"
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16:38:05  <Avdg> :/
16:38:08  <Avdg> disconnect
16:38:18  <glx> but I don't want a third handler
16:38:24  <Avdg> ??
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16:38:29  <frosch123> a third? what is the second?
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16:38:53  <frosch123> patchbot stuff?
16:38:57  <glx> yes
16:39:05  <glx> only one for now (!links)
16:39:17  <Sacro> !dance
16:39:22  <frosch123> !sacro
16:39:28  * Sacro dies
16:39:57  <frosch123> assert(sacro)
16:40:51  <ln-> assert(Sacro != Bjarni);
16:42:22  <Avdg> what does assert?
16:42:59  <ln-> *what does assert do
16:43:12  <Antdovu> nothing/crashes program
16:43:13  <ln-> you need an auxiliary verb in this inferior english language.
16:43:42  <benjamingoodger> actually you don't
16:43:45  <Avdg> crash if expression is true, interesting...
16:43:54  <gregor> What the fuck is this bot doing?
16:44:15  <frosch123> inverse turing test?
16:44:24  <glx> Avdg: no if expression is false
16:44:32  <Avdg> lol
16:44:46  <ln-> benjamingoodger: too often you do.
16:45:00  <benjamingoodger> "what does assert think" would require the "does" as an auxiliary verb, but "what does assert do" doesn't require the "do" (which would be infinitive, not auxiliary) since "does" is its own auxiliary
16:45:05  * Avdg wants to learn c++ :/
16:45:06  <benjamingoodger> but it's conventional to use it
16:45:19  <gregor> Avdg, start now. ;)
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16:45:24  <planetmaker> go right ahead.
16:45:36  * Avdg php -> C++
16:45:40  <benjamingoodger> Avdg: don't worry, we can treat that with medication
16:46:07  <Avdg> education?
16:46:16  <benjamingoodger> medication
16:46:17  <Avdg> seems intresting :p
16:46:35  <Avdg> too bad, php is written in c...
16:46:39  <benjamingoodger> as in, "I've been having these weird delusions", "don't worry, we can control that with medication"
16:47:41  <Avdg> education sounds better :p
16:48:36  <Antdovu> programming is easy ;)
16:48:49  <Antdovu> unless you use crazy languages
16:48:57  <Antdovu> and C++ is relatively sane
16:48:58  <Avdg> like php :p
16:49:02  <Sacro> >><<..-.-.==
16:49:07  <benjamingoodger> *cough*c*cough*
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16:49:14  <Antdovu> c is sane as well
16:49:15  <Avdg> php is easy, but not easy to switch into big one :p
16:49:29  <Eddi|zuHause> C/C++ is anything but sane...
16:49:44  <Antdovu> try brainfuck and then say that :P
16:49:51  <benjamingoodger> C and C++ are appalling
16:49:56  <Antdovu>
16:49:58  <benjamingoodger> only C# is worse
16:50:05  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, i know brainfuck
16:50:14  <planetmaker> whitespace makes for nice readability, too.
16:50:27  <Antdovu> yeah, I use that for my printed code
16:50:27  <Eddi|zuHause> it is one of the nicer esoteric languages out there ;)
16:50:49  <Rubidium> I've seen more reliable applications written in C/C++ than in either php or python
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16:51:18  <Rubidium> reliable being that they don't leak memory and cause the OOM killer to intervene
16:51:33  <ln-> Avdg: most importantly, php is not sane.
16:51:50  <Antdovu> well, C/C++ are older and used for different stuff
16:52:25  <Antdovu> PHP scripts are usually killed in a few seconds so memory isn't that important...
16:52:34  <Avdg> if i could write a new language...
16:52:34  <gregor> asm is the todays programming language.
16:52:54  <Avdg> maybe i will design my own asm
16:53:01  <Eddi|zuHause> python, like all scripting languages, has the problem that the non-declarative-ness tends to seriously bite you back in the maintenance lifecycle
16:53:05  <Avdg> then start avdg++
16:53:18  <Eddi|zuHause> when you start out without a real plan
16:53:26  <benjamingoodger> ¬.¬ how many times...python isn't a scripting language
16:53:26  <Antdovu> I really hate dynamic types in languages
16:53:34  <benjamingoodger> and it's not dynamically typed
16:53:47  <Avdg> i dont... but sometimes yeah
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16:54:16  <Avdg> if you can declare dynamic and nondynamic types, it should be bether :p
16:54:29  <Avdg> but it will use more memory i guess
16:54:31  <Eddi|zuHause> benjamingoodger: when a type can differ depending on the code path taken, what else would you call it than dynamic?
16:54:33  <Antdovu> yes, but PHP doesn't allow it
16:54:45  <benjamingoodger> Eddi|zuHause: duck
16:54:56  <benjamingoodger> well
16:54:57  <benjamingoodger> actually
16:55:11  <benjamingoodger> it's dynamically assigned, but statically modified and accessed
16:55:12  <Eddi|zuHause> duck typing has nothing to do with dynamic typing
16:55:55  <Eddi|zuHause> statically typed languages can use duck typing equally well
16:55:57  <benjamingoodger> by which I mean, it is strongly typed
16:56:08  <benjamingoodger> but I'm in over my head here. and I'm also late for dinner
16:56:10  <benjamingoodger> bbl
16:56:19  <Eddi|zuHause> strongly typed has also nothing to do with statically typed
16:56:27  <Avdg> i want to combine many languages
16:56:46  <Antdovu> C, C++, asm, python can be used at once
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16:57:00  <Eddi|zuHause> languages can very well be strongly typed while they are dynamically typed
16:57:00  <Avdg> wich language then?
16:57:28  <Antdovu> at least you can use all from C++
16:57:37  <Antdovu> + there are language bridges
16:57:38  <benjamingoodger> gregor: are you referring to ?
16:57:57  <Eddi|zuHause> and statically typed does not imply strongly typed
16:58:01  <benjamingoodger> because, that's not a programming language
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16:58:41  <benjamingoodger> if you were referring to assembly, then, I get the joke :)
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16:59:16  <gregor> benjamingoodger, last one. ;)
16:59:21  <benjamingoodger> ah
16:59:23  <benjamingoodger> excellent
17:01:06  <Eddi|zuHause> benjamingoodger: duck typing only means that class A {function b()} can be polymorphically used as class B {function b()}, even though they don't share an inheritance relationship
17:01:13  <gregor> .CODE START PROC MOV AH,128 TEST AH,10000000B JNZ HELLO NOP HELLO:
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17:01:39  <benjamingoodger> quite
17:01:47  <Eddi|zuHause> that is totally orthogonal to static/dynamic or strong/weak types
17:02:11  <benjamingoodger> rightyho
17:06:02  *** gauthier [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
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17:07:31  <Avdg> hum... if v7.0 comes out, it will make a copy of the trunk and goes his own direction, right?
17:07:56  <Eddi|zuHause> how do you figure there would ever be a v7.0?
17:08:06  <Avdg> 6 patches to go
17:08:13  <glx> there's no 1.0 yet
17:08:25  <Avdg> i mean 0.7.0
17:08:37  <Eddi|zuHause> then say that ;)
17:09:03  <Antdovu> after 0.9.x we can have 0.10.0 :)
17:09:23  <glx> indeed :)
17:09:24  <Avdg> :/
17:09:40  <Avdg> when do we have an official V1?
17:09:43  <Eddi|zuHause> and if you judge from history, there would be a 0.7 branch that will get bugfix releases from time to time, but no new features anymore
17:10:21  <Eddi|zuHause> Avdg: would a time range from 1 second to infinity suit you?
17:10:34  <Avdg> so if there is a old bug in the trunk, then you need it to fix it twice :/
17:10:43  <Rubidium> after 0.9.x comes 0.A.x
17:10:51  <Eddi|zuHause> it's called backporting, Avdg.
17:10:59  <Eddi|zuHause> it happens all the time
17:11:29  <Antdovu> 0.F.x -> 0.G.0 ?
17:12:01  <Avdg> 0.Z.0 -> 0.1Z.0?
17:12:11  <frosch123> Avdg: after solaris 2.6 came solaris 7
17:12:16  <glx> no 0.F.0 -> 0.10.0
17:12:26  <Avdg> ow hex
17:12:29  <Sacro> surely you go 0-9a-zA-Z?
17:12:30  <Avdg> :p
17:12:38  <Eddi|zuHause> 0.♓.x -> 0.♔.x
17:12:40  <Sacro> and then onto utf32
17:12:50  <Avdg> lol, stopid discussion
17:13:58  * Avdg wants to fix bugs, he hasnt fix any bug at bughuntday :'(
17:14:21  <Antdovu> create one and then fix it
17:14:32  <Avdg> lol
17:14:49  <Eddi|zuHause> the person who hunts is not necessarily the person who cooks
17:15:16  <Avdg> i've reported already 2 bugs, but only 1 at the bugtracker
17:15:16  <Eddi|zuHause> there are synergy effects to consider
17:15:50  <Avdg> my first one was the buoy-delete == crash bug
17:16:14  <Eddi|zuHause> someone wake me when we are at version 0..0 ;)
17:16:22  <Antdovu> CmdSetCompanyColor (should be CmdSetCompanyColour) is a critical bug ;)
17:17:23  <Avdg> not really for the computer :p
17:17:46  <Antdovu> my computer sneezes every time it sees color instead of colour ;)
17:17:59  <Avdg> actually, computers doesn't make bugs, human say it is a bug...
17:18:33  <Eddi|zuHause> actually, the term "bug" comes from a time where there were really bugs in the computer, causing shortcuts
17:18:39  <Avdg> even when windows is crashing caused by wrong hardware :p
17:18:45  <Sacro> twas a moth
17:18:58  <Sacro> Eddi|zuHause: is that GOATSE?
17:19:24  <Eddi|zuHause> err... i don't think so...
17:19:40  <Avdg> lool, we have to make a new chanel... #al languages inc.
17:19:40  <Antdovu> well, reboot has a similar history :P
17:20:32  <Eddi|zuHause> i've never heard a plausible story why it's called "boot"
17:20:51  <Avdg> boot is at other chanel :p
17:21:18  <Antdovu> reboot = hit a computer with your foot
17:21:21  <Eddi|zuHause> →⇉⇶⇟
17:21:33  <Antdovu> they used to have interesting kinds of memory...
17:22:03  <Eddi|zuHause> Antdovu: that is definitely not a plausible story
17:22:20  <Avdg> !update definition reboot: hit the resetbutton accidently
17:22:24  <Avdg> :p
17:22:24  <Antdovu> why not?
17:22:55  <Eddi|zuHause> because it does not explain the word "booting" [without "re-"]
17:23:16  <Aali> boot is just short for bootstrap
17:23:37  <Antdovu> it doesn't have to have any connection
17:23:40  <Avdg> :p im also interested in the hardware...
17:23:44  <frosch123> it is called boot, because the operator had to put on his boots to go out into the dark and enter the building from the backside to turn on the machine :p
17:24:07  <Aali> which in turn is short for bootstrap load
17:24:12  <Avdg> lol
17:24:45  <Avdg> history for haters :p
17:25:21  <Aali> which refers to the process of loading a simple program that will do whatever has to be done to get the system running without the help of an operator
17:25:49  <Aali> much like a real bootstrap will let you get your boots on without help from someone else
17:25:55  <Avdg> i want to know how a real computer starts :p
17:25:58  <Swallow> I have posted a fix for FS2403 (
17:26:39  <Eddi|zuHause> real computers start by a wing flap of a bytterfly
17:26:45  <Eddi|zuHause> or something :p
17:27:25  <Antdovu>
17:27:32  <Avdg> hum... why should trains revert automatic?
17:27:32  <Antdovu>
17:28:04  <Avdg> i like that image :p
17:28:18  <Eddi|zuHause> i have a box of those at homee
17:28:20  <Eddi|zuHause> -e
17:28:37  <Eddi|zuHause> for like 128 byte of printer storage
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17:29:36  <Antdovu> I have 10 bits of storage on my hands :)
17:30:10  <Avdg> and 10 on our feets :p
17:30:18  <Eddi|zuHause> they're called "digits" ;)
17:31:23  <Antdovu>
17:31:26  <Avdg> howmuch kb does our body have (normal)
17:31:44  <Antdovu> any suggestions for the GUI of part1?
17:32:07  <Antdovu> I have a working prototype for the functionality
17:33:27  <Eddi|zuHause> Avdg: i'd say the brain can store significantly more than an average hard drive, but it is not "random access"
17:33:47  <nicfer> currently there is no way to create a station between two others, joining one of them
17:34:10  <Antdovu> there was a patch, wasn't there?
17:34:10  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, there is
17:34:10  <Avdg> i mean, fingers, etc... :p
17:34:24  <Eddi|zuHause> you need to cover at least one tile from the station you want to join
17:34:47  <Avdg> :p now i understand the patch :p
17:35:20  <nicfer> but it's not possible if the tile where you want to put the station is adyacent to another one
17:35:39  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, it is
17:36:02  <Eddi|zuHause> you must overbuild an existing tile from the station, i said
17:36:15  <Antdovu> yep, it works
17:36:20  <Antdovu> never knew that...
17:37:03  <nicfer> that doesn't work for road stations
17:37:23  <Eddi|zuHause> that is true, they cannot cover more than 1 tile
17:37:39  <Aali> distant join patch can do it though
17:37:40  <Eddi|zuHause> but afaik there was a patch for drag&drop road stations
17:37:52  <Eddi|zuHause> which would allow that again
17:38:35  <Eddi|zuHause> distant-join is disputed functionality.
17:38:44  <Antdovu> drive-through road stations never seem to work well
17:39:09  <Eddi|zuHause> drive-through stations work well, if you don't rely on multistop
17:39:49  <Eddi|zuHause> multistop was not adapted to the two loading bays being accessible from different directions
17:39:50  <Aali> distant join is kindof a messy patch, but very very useful
17:40:11  <Antdovu> why not make one way drive-through stations so overtaking isn't a problem?
17:40:24  <Eddi|zuHause> well, you could try to rewrite it cleanly, and then start another attempt of getting it included
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17:40:45  <Aali> it will never be clean without some big rewrites though
17:40:50  <Avdg> i hope that my report will be fixed and added, before 0.7.0 comes out :p
17:40:54  <Avdg> need to go
17:41:20  <Aali> there's just not enough space for all that info in a single command
17:41:23  <Eddi|zuHause> 0.7.0 won't be likely to come out in the next couple of days :p
17:42:14  <Eddi|zuHause> Aali: the command only needs an additional station id, doesn't it?
17:42:15  <Avdg> 6 at the buglist...
17:42:42  <Avdg> and then alpha?
17:42:43  <Aali> Eddi|zuHause: yes, and there's not enough bits free for that
17:43:07  <Eddi|zuHause> that's unfortunate ;)
17:43:08  <Aali> so the current patch butchers the format and cuts some of the grf bits
17:43:56  <Swallow> not enough space in which DoCommand?
17:44:07  <Eddi|zuHause> suggestion: split the reservation for the station tiles command from the build station on existing station tiles command?
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17:44:54  <Eddi|zuHause> so for the first command you get a station of empty tiles, which are then filled by the second command?
17:45:36  <Aali> the idea is to interfere as little as possible with current behaviour
17:46:00  <Aali> creating another command you have to execute to get a station doesn't really help
17:46:02  <Eddi|zuHause> sometimes that is not a strategy that leads to the goal ;)
17:46:41  <Aali> thats not a strategy, that is the goal
17:47:19  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd argue with that statement...
17:47:34  <Aali> the patch works, all thats left is to make it more compatible with 3rd-party code
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17:47:57  <Swallow> You are talking about CMD_BUILD_RAILROAD_STATION, right?
17:48:06  <Aali> Swallow: yes
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17:48:29  <Swallow> Why is there not enough space there?
17:49:21  <Swallow> p1 bit 1..7 and 25..31 and p2 bit 4..7 and 24..31 are unused AFAIK
17:50:51  <Aali> don't ask me, i didn't write it
17:50:52  <petern> probably not enough map space, rather than not enough space in the command parameters.
17:51:48  <Aali> err, it doesn't use any map space at all
17:52:08  * Swallow agrees
17:52:24  <petern> hmm, then i don't know what you're talking about :)
17:54:32  <Aali> hmm, it assumes any "regular" command is joining INVALID_STATION though
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17:55:06  <Aali> so, even if the format was preserved, it wouldn't work with unmodified code
17:55:10  <Sacro> Aylomen: trains always stop *behind* signals
17:55:48  <petern> command parameter format can be changed at will
17:56:20  <petern> 26 bits free is plenty
17:56:22  <Eddi|zuHause> Aali: wth do you mean with "unmodified code"? you either modify it, or don't, there is nothing inbetween
17:56:28  <petern> indeed
17:56:56  <Aali> obviously, you have never tried to merge noai with distant join
17:57:01  <Sacro> "slighly pregnant"?
17:57:17  <Eddi|zuHause> that is an entirely different problem :p
17:57:56  <petern> that's a problem for whoever merges with noai :p
17:58:07  <Eddi|zuHause> and definitely not a problem for trunk inclusion
17:59:54  <Antdovu> why does ottd hate STL?
18:00:28  <Aali> well, either you try to keep command parameter format, or you hide it from "the rest of the code"
18:01:09  <Aali> since the latter isn't being done in ottd, the former should be
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18:03:48  <petern> what?
18:04:04  <petern> you are not making sense
18:07:05  <Aali> as it is now, you have to know the command parameter format for a given command to execute that command properly
18:07:30  <Aali> thats fine, but some effort should be made to keep the format unchanged, if possible
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18:08:24  <Eddi|zuHause> if you want to do an abstraction from the parameter format, that is a completely different patch
18:08:26  <Yexo> why? the command is only executed by openttd code, so if all calling code is also changed, I don't see any problem?
18:09:00  <Aali> the problem is that you have to find and change all calling code
18:09:06  <Belugas> uniformization of the parameters of the commands???
18:09:19  <Belugas> that is... awkward
18:09:20  <petern> yes
18:09:22  <Yexo> Aali: that only takes one grep through the source code
18:09:23  <Belugas> or whetever
18:09:28  <Belugas> hawk...
18:09:32  <Belugas> :D
18:09:32  <Eddi|zuHause> Aali: grep CMD_BUILD_STATION?
18:09:34  <Antdovu> "find all references" button...
18:09:39  <petern> that is done *once* by the patch that changes it
18:09:49  * Belugas nods
18:09:56  <Aali> clearly i am pushing some buttons here
18:10:33  <Aali> i'm simply saying the author of distant join shouldn't have butchered the parameter format, because its not needed
18:10:33  <Belugas> you have to, in order for us to read your lines ^_^
18:11:24  <Aali> and all your suggestions would not have solved the issue with noai passing bad parameters to distant join
18:11:43  <Eddi|zuHause> if you want an abstraction from the parameter format, you could try inline functions "packXYZCmdParameters" and "unpackXYZCmdParameters"
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18:11:58  <Aali> i dont
18:12:11  <Eddi|zuHause> Aali: all of our statements said this is a non-issue
18:12:42  <Aali> i already told you, the fact that command parameters aren't abstracted away does not bother me
18:13:00  <Aali> it would be silly, since they're only constructed in maybe one or two places
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18:13:33  <Wolf01> hello
18:13:43  <Eddi|zuHause> it's not silly, because then it is cleanly documented how parameters are constructed, and both construction and use are in the same spot
18:13:47  <Aali> Eddi|zuHause: its an annoyance that could've been avoided, and i dont see why you get all worked up about it, did you write distant join? :P
18:14:38  <Eddi|zuHause> no, but i'd like to see the functionality in a clean form to promote trunk inclusion
18:15:31  <Eddi|zuHause> and i studied software engineering, so i know about this kind of abstraction strategies ;)
18:15:38  <Wolf01> I and Frostregen wrote the distant join
18:16:21  <glx> s/the/a/ I think :)
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18:17:14  <Wolf01> the I think, since there aren't other versions
18:17:37  <Wolf01> it's always the same one only sync-ed with trunk
18:17:56  <glx> I though there was a version safer for MP
18:17:59  <Aali> Wolf01: the issue at hand is the butchered command parameter format for CMD_BUILD_RAILROAD_STATION, that caused some problems with noai
18:18:17  <glx> Aali: that's a noai problem
18:18:35  <Aali> i think you should have kept it compatible with the original format, but you could not have foreseen this issue :P
18:18:48  <Aali> glx: that depends on how you look at it
18:18:54  <glx> and it's not a problem as the patch is not a noai patch but a trunk patch
18:19:04  <Wolf01> as far I remember it is fully compatible with the original format
18:19:11  <Wolf01> *as I
18:19:24  <Aali> Wolf01: it is not, not anymore, atleast
18:19:34  <Eddi|zuHause> Aali: easy combining of patches is never going to be a good design goal
18:19:46  <Eddi|zuHause> (in this instance)
18:20:19  <glx> any patch is compatible with the version it's designed for
18:24:23  <Eddi|zuHause> and the bigger the patch is, and the longer the time between original creation and (hypothetical) trunk inclusion, the higher the risk that the codebase diverges too much.
18:28:12  <Belugas> Aali, are you suggesting that noAI should have been programmed in order to not conflict with all the other patches around?
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18:29:20  <Aali> Belugas: no i'm suggesting distant join should have been programmed in order to conflict with as few things as possible
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18:29:46  <frosch123> petern, DaleStan: <- any complains/suggestions in advance before discussing it on the forums?
18:31:25  <petern> 2a is invalid
18:31:43  <petern> bit 15 still signifies a callback, yes?
18:31:58  <petern> so bit 15 can't be the reverse flag
18:32:03  <DaleStan> Var 47 version bump definitely needed. It's a change.
18:32:08  <frosch123> true, have to shift it right by one :)
18:32:36  <petern> that limits articulated parts to IDs under 16384, which should be okay
18:34:18  <petern> btw
18:34:27  <petern> i want 32 bit results for cb36 ;)
18:34:56  <frosch123> register 0x100 ?
18:35:11  <petern> hmm
18:35:14  <DaleStan> Missing change: In v8, if all callbacks are 15-bit, then should FF## be 7F## instead of 00##?
18:35:17  <petern> actually that one's problematic
18:35:30  <petern> as it coexists with 8bit values too :o
18:36:11  <frosch123> hmm, 16 bit callbacks :)
18:36:52  <petern> cb16 is confgusing
18:37:00  <petern> 0xffff is a callback value of 0x7fff
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18:37:58  <frosch123> petern: reload, I changed it into a proper 15 bit callback
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18:38:13  <Yexo> cb18 (and maybe others) cannot be extended for more rail types currently
18:39:01  <frosch123> Yexo: you can add new subtypes to cb18. so it does not need a grf version bump
18:40:24  <petern> cb18 is an abomination anyway :)
18:41:11  <DaleStan> <petern> 0xffff is a callback value of 0x7fff <-- not so in v4-v7.
18:42:45  <Yexo> <- as alternative to cb18 for trains. I was told a change like that needs a grf version bump, so maybe this is the time to consider that.
18:45:07  <frosch123> Yexo: That suggestion would restrict callback 18 to be a noai only callback, and would stop supporting TTDP AIs. You have to add a new value for variable 86 for noai stuff. Then you can do what you like, without any version bump.
18:45:43  <Yexo> frosch123: I don't see why a TTDP AI couldn't use that callback
18:47:28  <frosch123> you have to discuss that with a patch dev. but I guess they will happily await your patch :)
18:47:54  <CIA-5> OpenTTD: translators * r14575 /trunk/src/lang/ (4 files in 2 dirs):
18:47:54  <CIA-5> OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2008-11-11 18:47:38
18:47:54  <CIA-5> OpenTTD: dutch - 2 changed by Excel20 (2)
18:47:54  <CIA-5> OpenTTD: latvian - 14 fixed by v3rb0 (14)
18:47:54  <CIA-5> OpenTTD: macedonian - 161 fixed, 15 changed by sashozs (176)
18:47:56  <CIA-5> OpenTTD: portuguese - 1 fixed by joznaz (1)
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18:49:57  <frosch123> Yexo: despite of that, "81 W" is highly incompatible with everything that has been specified for newgrfs before
18:51:16  <frosch123> i.e. 80+x variables are just offsets into a memory area. so when 81 is a word, 82 is the high byte of 81
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18:51:54  <Yexo> ok, I didn't know that
18:51:56  <DaleStan> Ditto 84 and 85. And thus it will stay.
18:52:44  <Yexo> still, the current cb18 has "82 B default selection" where "default selection" is an EngineID when features = 00-03
18:52:53  <Yexo> ie it doesn't work with the engine pool
18:56:00  <FloSoft> 82B? thats not sooo big *scnr*
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19:16:44  <Chrill> Sacro?
19:17:04  <Sacro> nevar
19:17:10  <Chrill> aw
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19:17:21  <Wolf01> try with tits
19:17:23  <Chrill> you dont have the power to eat up passwords on the brianetta server?
19:17:52  <Chrill> seeing how the site says "contact brianetta irc email blabla", Chrill wants his password :P
19:18:02  <Sacro> hehe :)
19:18:05  * Sacro has the powah
19:18:10  <Chrill> you has my pass?
19:18:26  <Sacro> I can aquire it
19:18:35  <Chrill> would you do that for chrillums?
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19:34:01  <davis-> omg its a trap
19:34:39  <Wolf01> indeed
19:35:55  <davis-> :q
19:43:53  <nicfer> I can't wait for the OCS renewal
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19:45:44  <nicfer> it makes powerplants useful again
19:49:54  <Wolf01> I can't wait for any feature, I need some serotonin, new features make me feel slightly better, like purchasing things like games (which I don't play because I have not enough time) or electronics or books
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19:53:31  <nicfer> there is a dead patch I liked: the seasons one
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19:55:45  <davis-> mhm
20:01:45  <davis->
20:01:47  <davis-> eh
20:01:50  <davis-> wrong link
20:02:02  <davis->
20:02:05  <davis-> hows that going on
20:02:26  <frosch123> we are playing the finished version for months
20:02:50  <davis-> ?
20:03:28  <frosch123> havn't you noticed, that there were a lot less commits in the last weeks? what do you think we are doing :p
20:03:30  <Eddi|zuHause> :p
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20:03:38  <Wolf01> eheh
20:03:43  <davis-> iam lost , apparantly
20:03:46  *** gauthier_ is now known as gauthier
20:04:46  <Antdovu> frosch123: learning macedonian :)
20:05:06  <frosch123> serbian would be more useful :)
20:05:27  <Antdovu> well, there are basically two schools of thought...
20:05:31  <Wolf01> they have cbh, diagonal bridges, new map array, rotatable maps and more than 10 new road/rail types too
20:06:02  <Antdovu> I am pretty sure it isn't April yet ;)
20:06:24  <frosch123> but 11.11.
20:07:14  <davis-> x.x
20:07:15  <Wolf01> 4-1, first april :D
20:08:31  <Qball> hmmm pbs gooodness
20:08:37  <Qball> I don't have time to play gains
20:08:38  <Qball> but goood
20:09:17  <Rubidium> no, April 1st is reserved for releases
20:17:18  <nicfer> still, I think that fake subways are the way to go
20:17:32  <nicfer> even through this feature will kinda help
20:18:03  <Wolf01> the main problem is to set the height of the transparency :P
20:18:41  <petern> lol
20:18:46  <petern> you have no idea
20:19:28  <nicfer> just tunnel a tramtrack below houses and other stuff, leaving curves and stations visible
20:20:11  <Belugas> not me
20:20:39  <nicfer> I have two words for you: it's unrealistic :)
20:20:56  <Wolf01> I know you're hiding wonderful features like you are Area51 :P
20:21:41  <nicfer> REAL subways, behind all the implementation mess, would be hard to control
20:22:03  <Rubidium> nicfer: if done correctly it's no harder than any normal rail/rv network
20:22:45  <nicfer> having to press a button for seeing your subways is kinda molest
20:23:40  * Belugas wants to elect nicfer as chief-coder for OpenTTD
20:24:23  * nicfer notes that I have no idea about programming
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20:26:49  <petern> "is kinda molest"... what?
20:27:16  <Antdovu1> if we ever get real subways then somebody is going to build a huge coal transporting network underground, on maglev trains if possible :P
20:27:46  <petern> yup
20:27:51  <petern> and so what? heh
20:27:59  <Antdovu1> well, it needs more features
20:28:10  <Antdovu1> a HUGE pink unicorn is needed as well
20:28:36  <frosch123> transporting coal underground is nothing special :)
20:28:36  <nicfer> also they should be coded as trams, only using underground tracks
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20:29:08  <nicfer> like trams*
20:29:11  <Wolf01> then we'll need fully flexible bridges as locomotion to be able to build more levels overground :P
20:29:12  <frosch123> you would need a fitting vehicle grf, like the "heavy whatever stuff"
20:29:33  <petern> right
20:29:44  <petern> any more stupid suggestions and you'll answer to my ban-stick
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20:29:52  <Antdovu1> maglev coal trains in a subway isn't probably very common :P
20:30:21  <Antdovu1> but you never know with china...
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20:31:43  <Belugas> yeah! I've got another suggestion : there should be mp3s reading instead of midi ;)
20:34:02  <frosch123> true, a modern game would allow plugging your guitar into the computer, and to increase your initial funds with a good performance
20:34:50  <Wolf01> I was looking yesterday for an usb guitar
20:36:01  <Belugas> oh.. instead of chatting, it will actually send out the sound of the instruments!
20:36:06  <ln-> *for an usb guitar yesterday
20:36:12  <Belugas> a live band system!
20:36:15  <SpComb> usb air guitar
20:36:34  <Belugas> and after a while, no one cares about the trains, just grooving on a beat ^_^
20:37:00  <petern> *a usb
20:37:02  <Wolf01> that's easy, it's just an usb cable from the pc to... your pocket :D
20:37:47  <ln-> *a usb
20:38:47  <SpComb> a usb air guitar that doesn't generate any kind of signal is kind of useless
20:39:03  <Antdovu> it works on faith
20:39:23  <Wolf01>
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21:07:18  <dih> Belugas, how about a chat reader? rather than having to actually pay attention to that text, OpenTTD will read it out loud :-P
21:07:22  * dih hides
21:08:31  <Wolf01> 'night
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21:10:44  <Antdovu> I just don't see the point in such a feature
21:10:58  <Antdovu> How will it help me find out how many trains I need to add?
21:12:50  <Belugas> Antdovu, it won't
21:13:13  <Antdovu> then it is certainly completely useless :P
21:14:21  <Belugas> HO MY GOD!!!!!!  ARE YOU KIDDING ?????
21:15:06  <Antdovu> maybe ;)
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21:38:26  <George> DaleStan: says var 82 is Word. what happens if a town has population over 64K?
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21:42:20  <DaleStan> Something. Probably a clamp, but it might overflow.
21:43:05  <DaleStan> OpenTTD and early versions of TTDPatch are more likely to overflow.
21:43:58  <George> And what about the latest nighties?
21:44:00  <George> Would it be hard to make it FF FF then?
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21:44:30  <DaleStan> I take it that means you have confirmed it doesn't clamp in the nightlies?
21:46:00  <SmatZ> most likely it is clamped
21:46:20  <George> well, I got only 52K population yet, so it was a theoretical question. But if necessary, I'll make a test on week end
21:46:28  <SmatZ> 		case 0x82: return ClampToU16(t->population);
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21:50:58  <CIA-5> OpenTTD: truebrain * r14576 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ai_abstractlist.hpp: [NoAI] -Fix: typo in doxygen comment (Finaldeath)
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21:52:02  <SmatZ> ah, George was asking DaleStan, ignore me then :)
21:52:12  <SmatZ> apparently you did...
21:53:09  <George> sorry, I asked anybody who can answer
21:54:15  <DaleStan> It looks to me like it's clamped in both beta 9 and the latest Patch nightlies.
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22:15:17  <rortom> hi
22:15:30  <rortom> @seen TrueBrain
22:15:30  <DorpsGek> rortom: TrueBrain was last seen in #openttd 1 week, 0 days, 0 hours, 50 minutes, and 27 seconds ago: <TrueBrain> I hate youtube
22:15:48  <Yexo> rortom: what do you need TrueBrain for?
22:16:11  <rortom> he wanted me to tell a name of a nice climbing hall in the netherlands ;)
22:16:29  <rortom> you tested my patch? :)
22:16:31  <Yexo> ah, he is active in #openttd.noai, just not here
22:16:36  <Yexo> not yet, I've been busy
22:16:39  <rortom> sure :)
22:16:52  <rortom> ive fixed some bugs i had yesterday
22:17:19  <rortom> also im questining what statistics i should add
22:17:32  <rortom> some more senseful then the ones now
22:24:46  <rortom> *questioning
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22:46:39  <Sacro> @seen Belugas
22:46:39  <DorpsGek> Sacro: Belugas was last seen in #openttd 1 hour, 32 minutes, and 18 seconds ago: <Belugas> HO MY GOD!!!!!!  ARE YOU KIDDING ?????
22:47:42  <Chrill> Such a quite can only be Belugas'
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22:47:45  <SmatZ> hehe
22:47:46  <Chrill> ..quote
22:48:06  <Sacro> almost like he pre-empted me
22:51:44  <CIA-5> OpenTTD: smatz * r14577 /trunk/src/order_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#2403]: vehicle didn't respect its 'refit in nearest depot' order (Swallow)
22:55:27  <Sacro> Anyone else here use Delphi?
22:58:00  *** murr4y [murray@2001:470:1f0a:1be::a1c0] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:01:07  <SmatZ> Sacro: Belugas
23:01:18  <Sacro> SmatZ: else
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23:02:11  <SmatZ> Sacro: you didn't specify "else than who"
23:02:54  <Sacro> SmatZ: pfft
23:02:57  <Antdovu> I used to use it
23:03:10  <Antdovu> but then the nightmare ended and I woke up
23:03:23  <glx> Sacro: frosh123
23:03:47  * SmatZ 's ignore list grows a bit again :)
23:04:41  <Sacro> sigh
23:04:52  <Sacro> I want to know what a type 20 is when decompiling a delphi generated file
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23:21:09  <Antdovu>
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