Log for #openttd on 13th November 2008:
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00:24:50  <ln> 'night
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00:29:19  <SmoovTruck> minor website bug... frontpage shows a screenshot thumbnail... clicking on it, takes me to the screenshots page... the screenshot shown in the thumbnail, isn't found on the page
00:29:57  <benjamingoodger> :D
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00:54:22  <DASPRiD> Hey, probably someone of you can help: When have a byte (hex: 0D), and interpret it as signed int, what should I get?
00:54:53  <SmatZ> 13
00:55:26  <DASPRiD> damn :x
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00:55:55  <SmatZ> why?
00:56:05  <DASPRiD> means the grf format definition can't be right
00:56:19  <DASPRiD> it's about the compression
00:56:57  <DASPRiD> when $byte & 1, it follows a repeated chunk, but 13 is the very first byte of the data stream, which means there can't be bytes before to repeat
01:00:57  <xerxesdaphat> what compression format do they use?
01:01:42  <SmatZ> sorry, I don't really understand your problem - but yes, it is possible to force the decoder to "seek" before the beginning of decoded stream
01:01:51  <DASPRiD> some variation of LZ77
01:02:55  <DASPRiD> SmatZ, a) it defiens an offset of 1200, but we are only at byte position 200 yet, b) the grccodec doesn't "support" seeking to a previous sprite stream
01:03:44  <xerxesdaphat> heh my saturday morning exam is on stuff similar to this
01:03:57  <xerxesdaphat> i think the case study is LZW though :P
01:04:39  <SmatZ> DASPRiD: neither OTTD would decode such sprite
01:04:52  <DASPRiD> right
01:05:41  <SmatZ> is it possible you mistaked the byte order in word? (big / little endian)
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01:06:03  <SmatZ> big endian is used
01:06:59  <DASPRiD> is big endian default machine order on pc?
01:07:04  <SmatZ> no
01:07:12  <DASPRiD> oh ^^
01:07:20  <SmatZ> :)
01:07:24  <DASPRiD> that could then actually lead to some problems ;)
01:08:06  <DASPRiD> why does GRF use big endian anyway? :X
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01:08:55  <SmatZ> I don't know, and I don't know who is responsible for it :)
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01:09:09  <xerxesdaphat> D0 is 208
01:09:12  <Ammler> I would say CS
01:09:48  <SmatZ> xerxesdaphat: you are swapping nibbles, not bytes :)
01:10:30  <xerxesdaphat> you're right -- i think i'm correct if i'm using an alpha processor though
01:10:30  <SmatZ> 00 0D = 13 in BE, but 3328 in BE
01:10:52  <SmatZ> xerxesdaphat: I don't know :-x probably you are, when you say so :)
01:11:16  <DASPRiD> are you actually sure about the big endian thingy?
01:11:24  <SmatZ> hehe
01:11:28  <glx> <SmatZ> 00 0D = 13 in BE, but 3328 in BE <-- good way to confuse people :)
01:11:29  <SmatZ> 00 0D = 13 in BE, but 3328 in LE
01:11:35  <SmatZ> indeed :)
01:11:46  <DASPRiD> SmatZ, because
01:11:46  <DASPRiD>
01:11:51  <DASPRiD> here is nothing written about the byte order
01:12:07  <vraa> does anyone know if openttd is multi threaded?
01:12:14  <glx> it isn't
01:12:25  <glx> well it is but only for saving
01:12:38  <vraa> is there any work being done to make it so? because it seems like it could be parallelized
01:12:49  <glx> it can't
01:13:01  <vraa> oh that sucks
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01:13:05  <glx> everything rely on a precise order
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01:13:44  <DASPRiD> SmatZ, also i get quite strange results in big endian, which don't fit to the result grfcodec gives
01:13:45  <xerxesdaphat> static void GRFInfo(byte *buf, int len)
01:13:45  <xerxesdaphat> {
01:13:45  <xerxesdaphat> 	/* <08> <version> <grf-id> <name> <info>
01:13:45  <xerxesdaphat> 	 *
01:13:45  <xerxesdaphat> 	 * B version       newgrf version, currently 06
01:13:47  <xerxesdaphat> 	 * 4*B grf-id      globally unique ID of this .grf file
01:13:50  <xerxesdaphat> 	 * S name          name of this .grf set
01:13:52  <xerxesdaphat> 	 * S info          string describing the set, and e.g. author and copyright */
01:13:55  <xerxesdaphat> 	/* TODO: Check version. (We should have own versioning done somehow.) */
01:13:57  <xerxesdaphat> 	uint8 version;
01:14:00  <xerxesdaphat> 	uint32 grfid;
01:14:02  <xerxesdaphat> 	const char *name;
01:14:05  <xerxesdaphat> 	const char *info;
01:14:07  <xerxesdaphat> 	check_length(len, 9, "GRFInfo");
01:14:10  <xerxesdaphat> 	version = buf[1];
01:14:12  <xerxesdaphat> 	/* this is de facto big endian - grf_load_dword() unsuitable */
01:14:15  <xerxesdaphat> 	grfid = buf[2] << 24 | buf[3] << 16 | buf[4] << 8 | buf[5];
01:14:17  <xerxesdaphat> 	name = (const char*)(buf + 6);
01:14:18  <glx> xerxesdaphat: stop NOW
01:14:20  <xerxesdaphat> 	info = name + strlen(name) + 1;
01:14:22  <xerxesdaphat> 	_cur_grffile->grfid = grfid;
01:14:25  <xerxesdaphat> 	_cur_grffile->flags |= 0x0001; /* set active flag */
01:14:27  <DASPRiD> glx, he can't he pasted yet
01:14:27  <xerxesdaphat> 	DEBUG(grf, 1) ("[%s] Loaded GRFv%d set %08lx - %s:\n%s\n",
01:14:27  <glx> @kick xerxesdaphat
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01:14:59  <SmatZ> DASPRiD: Bits 0 to 2 are the high bits of an offset, with the low bits being in the next byte.
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01:15:17  <DASPRiD> SmatZ, i know that, cause i read that ;)
01:15:24  <DASPRiD> i even use the shifting described there
01:15:24  <SmatZ> ok :)
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01:16:21  <SmatZ> DASPRiD: (But "code" must be a signed char, of course.)  is it signed in your code?
01:16:39  <DASPRiD> SmatZ, it always results in 13, independent of signed or unsigned
01:17:01  <SmatZ> DASPRiD: why do you think it is unsigned data?
01:17:08  <DASPRiD> ?
01:17:09  <SmatZ> errrrrrrr compressed data?
01:17:09  <DASPRiD> i dont
01:17:11  <DASPRiD> ah
01:17:18  <DASPRiD> because 13 & 1 = 1
01:17:22  <DASPRiD> which means the first bit is set
01:17:32  <SmatZ> The high bit of the code shows whether this is a verbatim chunk (not set) or a repetition of earlier data (set).
01:17:39  <DASPRiD> right
01:17:41  <SmatZ> first bit = code & 0x80
01:17:46  <DASPRiD> uhm
01:17:47  <SmatZ> errr high bit
01:17:52  <SmatZ> mmm I should go to bed
01:17:54  <DASPRiD> code & 80....
01:18:05  <DASPRiD> ok
01:18:06  <SmatZ> 80(dec) != 0x80 (hex)
01:18:12  <DASPRiD> yeah
01:18:17  <DASPRiD> that could actually be my bug :)
01:18:21  <SmatZ> :-D
01:20:26  <DASPRiD> SmatZ, ok probably you can help me a bit further
01:20:42  <DASPRiD> unsigned long length = -(code >> 3);
01:20:59  <DASPRiD> i don't have unsigned integers in php, so length results in a negativ number
01:21:18  <SmatZ> I don't know php :-x
01:21:24  <SmatZ> but code should be negative
01:21:42  <SmatZ> if it is compressed stream
01:21:47  <DASPRiD> you mean, as it is signed?
01:21:59  <DASPRiD> you mean, as it is signed?
01:22:00  <SmatZ> I don't know php :-x
01:22:01  <DASPRiD> whops
01:22:02  <glx> high bit set means negative for signed
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01:22:36  <DASPRiD> oh yeah, now it is :)
01:23:43  <SmatZ> .... I typed twice the same sentence ... and I didn't know about it :-x I should really sleep
01:23:45  <SmatZ> good night
01:23:50  <DASPRiD> nini
01:23:52  <DASPRiD> thanks for help
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01:28:40  <Kisfvo> Hello all.
01:29:42  <Kisfvo> How is everyone doing?
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01:30:50  <Kisfvo> Hello all!
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01:32:49  <Kisfvo> Greetings
01:32:57  <Kisfvo> Is anyone there?
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04:05:47  <AgentLeMan> hello everybody :o) can someone help me with an error i get while compiling? the error is "C:\Program Files\Microsoft SDKs\Windows\v6.0A\include\winnt.h(7818) : error C4430: missing type specifier - int assumed." even though i redirected msvc8 to the downloaded SDK.
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08:04:24  <ln> hello
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10:00:16  * davis hi
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10:22:10  <planetmaker> question: if I want to use the OpenGFX instead of the proprietary files. Can they be in a subfolder of ./openttd/data or must they be directly in that?
10:23:46  <mrfrenzy> try it?
10:24:03  <planetmaker> well... but I cannot right now :)
10:24:16  <planetmaker> and there might be people who know :)
10:34:52  <DASPRiD> subfolder works
10:35:01  <DASPRiD> even sub subfolder
10:37:39  <Ammler> DASPRiD: OpenGFX is a base grf
10:37:49  <Ammler> not like other NewGRFs
10:39:33  <DASPRiD> Ammler, well, i have it in a subfolder as well?
10:39:54  <Ammler> hmm
10:40:36  <DASPRiD> dasprid@dasprid-desktop:~/openttdcoop/data$ find -name "OpenGFX*"
10:40:36  <DASPRiD> ./1_other/OpenGFX
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10:50:53  <Ammler> DASPRiD: that is the newgrf version
10:51:00  <Seberoth> hi
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10:57:56  <DASPRiD> Ammler, ah :x
11:03:50  <Rubidium> planetmaker: why wouldn't it be working?
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11:24:23  <planetmaker> Rubidium: I have no idea and my guess is it will. :) I'll test it tonight :)
11:24:46  <planetmaker> The question arose because we might want to include it into our grf pack - and that usually has it's own subdirectory.
11:25:55  <planetmaker> that way it subsequently might be possible to answer the question "what files do I need" with "get that grf pack" instead of "get your original CD".
11:26:13  <planetmaker> and it'd be 100% legal.
11:30:30  <Ammler> planetmaker: it does work
11:30:38  <planetmaker> :)
11:30:43  <planetmaker> nice to hear :)
11:30:53  <Ammler> now, we can discuss it further :P
11:31:10  <planetmaker> :)
11:35:24  <Ammler> Rubidium: great fix with
11:36:16  <FauxFaux> I wonder how hard it'd be to play with just the minimap (hardcore mode).
11:36:53  <Ammler> but why does it need a file at all?
11:50:25  <roboman> gnight
11:51:22  <china> you know what i hate?
11:51:31  <china> being low on cash and building railway trough crops.
11:51:31  <china> :<
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12:14:07  <china> im having major issues with this map
12:14:08  <china> bah
12:14:23  <ln> *i'm
12:14:36  <china> oh, yes.
12:14:41  <Ammler> *I'm
12:14:59  <Doorslammer> Bah, sodding bloody soddery
12:15:15  <china> "bah! humbug!"
12:15:21  <Doorslammer> One day I'll have TRS2004 run something until it jolly well enjoys it
12:15:36  <china> what's trs2004?
12:15:36  <Doorslammer> Bloody thing
12:16:03  <Doorslammer> Trainz Rail Simulator 2004
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12:27:13  <welshdragon> my content dispatcher plus can't find it's installation
12:27:49  <welshdragon> Doorslammer, #trainz !
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12:29:11  <Doorslammer> Oops, will do
12:30:22  <Sacro> So... who here does tram development, we have a bug!
12:30:55  <Doorslammer> LOL, do we?
12:31:16  <Sacro> Aye, on standard server
12:31:18  <Sacro> tram going in circles
12:31:27  <Sacro> all other trams navigate same tile just fine
12:32:20  <Doorslammer> Nice one
12:32:28  <Doorslammer> Maybe hes lost? ;)
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12:37:41  <Brianetta> It's the Teleporting Tram Bug
12:37:47  <china> back on my feet now
12:37:54  * china loves coal
12:38:01  <Brianetta> It's caused when a tram is turned around on a tile boundary, and is supposed to have been fixed for 0.6.3
12:38:21  <Brianetta> Apparently it isn't quite as fixed as hoped
12:39:11  <welshdragon> i exposed it ;)
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12:53:49  <china> hm
12:54:03  <china> i guess this channel is more suited for you programers behind the game, i guess.
12:54:11  * china is only init for the money
12:54:41  * Brianetta isn't a programmer
12:56:02  * Doorslammer declares himself a nonentity also
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13:57:11  <DASPRiD> How to determine the palette which is used by a GRF? according to grfcodec, it's just defined by the beginning of the filename?
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14:41:33  <Rubidium> DASPRiD: there's no reliable (for a computer) way to determine the palette
14:41:56  <DASPRiD> Rubidium, so how does openttd know it?
14:42:07  <glx> it doesn't
14:42:22  <DASPRiD> so which palette does openttd use then? :x
14:42:42  <glx> it just knows the palette to use based on original files names
14:42:55  <Rubidium> we know the md5 of the dos/windows original graphics and assume the rest has the same palette
14:43:23  <DASPRiD> i c
14:43:25  <glx> ha right, names+md5 :)
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14:43:41  <DASPRiD> there should really be a standard in newgrf defining the palette ;)
14:44:19  <glx> there's a "standard', windows palette grf have a 'w' in the name
14:44:34  <glx> but we don't rely on it :)
14:46:54  <DASPRiD> hehe
14:46:56  <glx> so you want each grf to be 768 bytes bigger?
14:47:01  <DASPRiD> no
14:47:08  <DASPRiD> it should just define the palette name
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14:54:19  <Eddi|zuHause> some grfs do not even have graphics that need specifying a palette
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14:59:42  <Eddi|zuHause> it should theoretically be possible to create dual dos/win grfs, that have both graphics in them, and chose the right ones based on context
14:59:50  <Eddi|zuHause> but no grf author does that
14:59:56  <glx> btw in nightlies you can switch palette in newgrf config
15:01:44  <Eddi|zuHause> has anyone considered, for NFO version 8, to introduce a flag in the defining action 8 that the grf specifies dos/win/don't care?
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15:22:47  <DASPRiD> glx, Eddi|zuHause: long offset = BE_SWAP16(ibuffer[4+y]) + 8; <-- what does this line do?
15:22:47  <Priski> How do I can get a sertain nightly build (not the latest), is it even possible without compiling from source?
15:23:30  <Eddi|zuHause> DASPRiD: big endian conversion?
15:23:44  <DASPRiD> aha! :x
15:23:59  <DASPRiD> so uhm, what exacly? :)
15:24:20  <Eddi|zuHause> Priski: there should be an archive somewhere
15:24:30  <Eddi|zuHause> try
15:25:16  <Priski> ah thanks, I remembered that it should be somewhere but couldn't find a link anywhere
15:25:17  <Eddi|zuHause> DASPRiD: conversion between little endian and big endian means swapping the high and low byte
15:25:37  <DASPRiD> and iBuffer[4+y] is?
15:25:52  <DASPRiD> (i'm no c-coder, sorry :))
15:25:55  <Eddi|zuHause> an array access?
15:26:24  <DASPRiD> ah so it get's the 4+y byte of iBuffer?
15:26:48  <Eddi|zuHause> two bytes probably
15:26:57  <DASPRiD> probably?
15:27:03  <Eddi|zuHause> as the 16 indicates 16 bit
15:27:19  <DASPRiD> oh okay, and the + 8 at the end then?
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15:28:08  <Eddi|zuHause> it's an offset correction... it really depends on context what that +8 means
15:28:25  <DASPRiD> U16 *ibuffer = (U16*) buffer;
15:28:27  <DASPRiD> does that help?
15:28:31  <Eddi|zuHause> could be related to the 4 in the array
15:28:38  <Eddi|zuHause> 4*2 = 8
15:28:51  <Eddi|zuHause> 4th index, 2 bytes each, makes 8 bytes
15:29:36  <DASPRiD> ah
15:29:40  <DASPRiD> i guess i get it :)
15:29:50  <DASPRiD> after look again now at the definition it's clear
15:29:52  <DASPRiD> thank you very much
15:30:01  <Eddi|zuHause> but it could be totally unrelated also
15:30:10  <DASPRiD> no it looks correct :)
15:32:51  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm still not sure what you are actually trying to do ;)
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15:34:42  <DASPRiD> Eddi|zuHause, a small library for reading grf files in a php application ;)
15:34:51  <DASPRiD> without depending on external programs like grfcodec
15:34:58  <DASPRiD> so nothing fancy ;)
15:44:47  <Belugas> DASPRiD, something like grf2html?
15:44:56  <Belugas> granted, not in php, in DElphi, but still...
15:45:16  <DASPRiD> Belugas, not for such a purpose, but yeah something like that
15:45:26  <DASPRiD> wonderful, tile decoding works :)
15:45:53  <DASPRiD> and the entire grf decoding process only takes like < a second :)
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16:04:16  <ln> hello
16:06:17  <benjamingoodger> hihi
16:06:38  <benjamingoodger> still campaigning against channel noise, then, ln?
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16:09:42  <ln> not very actively
16:09:55  <ln> that was only my second hello today.
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16:24:01  <Seberoth> !ip
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16:25:16  <Eddi|zuHause> fascinating
16:26:31  <DASPRiD> how nice :x
16:26:58  <benjamingoodger> meh
16:27:09  <benjamingoodger> gets the job done without being rude
16:27:13  <benjamingoodger> ...for a script
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16:39:32  <DASPRiD> Eddi|zuHause, are you still there? :x
16:39:44  <Eddi|zuHause> no
16:39:49  <DASPRiD> damn ;P
16:39:58  <DASPRiD> hm wait
16:40:00  <DASPRiD> probably, nevermind
16:40:13  <DASPRiD> i should read the correct documentations *G*
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16:48:55  <china> wow.
16:49:02  <china> mrfrenzy: you suck!
16:51:20  <dihedral> ?
16:51:44  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: you should tell your GRF suggestion to frosch123
16:52:38  <Eddi|zuHause> has anyone considered, for NFO version 8, to introduce a flag in the defining action 8 that the grf specifies dos/win/don't care?
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16:52:54  <frosch123> does that need a version bump?
16:53:22  <frosch123> or do you want to enforce specifying the palette?
16:53:32  <Eddi|zuHause> not necessarily, but it could just be fit in there, if it's going to be bumped anyway :)
16:53:43  <china> dihedral: (im playing him)
16:53:57  <china> dihedral: (and he's leading)
16:54:03  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't want to enforce anything, it was just a thought
16:54:04  <benjamingoodger> hey china
16:54:20  <china> zup
16:55:18  <Rubidium> frosch123: it's useful for OpenTTD to know what palette the developer made the set with (so we don't have to guess the palette)
16:55:23  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: I meant, you do not need a version bump, when you want to add something.
16:55:28  <dihedral> china, then you two should getyourselves a channel for your game
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16:56:04  <china> dihedral: does my one-liner offend you?
16:56:31  <dihedral> i was just thingking of future chatter ;-)
16:56:34  <frosch123> so, we want to make specifiying a palette (win/dos/don't care) mandatory for version 8?
16:56:47  <china> dihedral: i was just kicking his but in another medium. :)
16:56:57  <dihedral> so?
16:56:59  <dihedral> who cares?
16:57:17  <Eddi|zuHause> well, grfcodec could automatically fill this flag from the -p option
16:57:23  <Rubidium> dihedral: just /ignore people that annoy you; they're not worth to get an answer anyways ;)
16:57:42  <dihedral> yeah - i should do more often
16:57:54  <dihedral> but then i always forget to add the ignore to the other clients i use :-P
16:58:13  <Rubidium> then use only one client
16:58:17  <Eddi|zuHause> and it struck me that the action 8 would be an appropriate place
16:58:21  <china> dihedral: well, he and me, for the important part.
16:58:25  <china> him*
16:59:47  <Ammler> Rubidium: We tested your "fix", works really nice, would it be complicated to allow no file instead of needing a empty file?
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17:07:03  <DASPRiD> hey, just a short question: <-- there is the .nfo specification for actions, but where do i find the binary specification (how it is saved in the .grf) ?
17:07:28  <frosch123> the sprite starts with FF
17:07:39  <frosch123> the follows the raw data
17:07:50  <frosch123> somewhere around the FF is the length as a word
17:07:56  <DASPRiD> word, so 2 bytes?
17:08:01  <DASPRiD> little or big endian?
17:08:19  <frosch123> take a look at grf2html, it does not use those magic signed/unsigned/shifting stuff to decode it
17:08:29  *** Char [] has quit []
17:08:37  <DASPRiD> he okay, probably a good idea
17:08:56  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd say with grfs it's generally a safe bet that everything is little endian
17:09:13  <DASPRiD> Eddi|zuHause, that's true, it is ;)
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17:13:12  <DASPRiD> frosch123, damn, the sourcecode of grf2html is even less readable to me than grfcodec ;)
17:13:24  <DASPRiD> well i just try a bit around, maybe it works ;)
17:13:25  <frosch123> lol
17:13:37  <Eddi|zuHause> it's pascal, how unreadable can it be?
17:13:44  <DASPRiD> hehe
17:13:52  <frosch123> it is pascal, it uses english words to describe things instead of & | ~ !
17:13:59  <DASPRiD> i knew turbo pascal... like 15 years ago ;)
17:14:17  <frosch123> however you have to look into grfbase.pas IIRC
17:14:19  <Eddi|zuHause> well, pascal is significantly older than that :)
17:14:57  <frosch123> turbo vision 2 is about that age :p
17:15:28  <Eddi|zuHause> and reading a language you don't know is usually very easy, unless it's php :p
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17:26:05  <DASPRiD> frosch123, may i ask another question? :)
17:26:23  <DASPRiD> is the first sprite, defining the total number of sprites, required in every grf?
17:26:40  <frosch123> in every newgrf
17:26:56  <frosch123> i.e. the trg* start with a real sprite
17:27:22  <frosch123> btw. the number is not necessarily correct :p
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17:28:34  <DASPRiD> frosch123, oh so i should better ignore it?
17:28:44  <DASPRiD> instead of throwing errors :)
17:29:11  <frosch123> yes, "ignoring" would be a good idea :)
17:29:37  <DASPRiD> kay :)
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17:45:58  <Belugas> hooo.. the Precipice!
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18:00:36  <Antdovu> guten morgen
18:02:42  * Belugas guess it means good morning, so...
18:02:47  <Belugas> hello Antdovu
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18:24:01  <Wolf01> hello
18:24:14  <ln> hello
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18:27:26  <Belugas> hello Wolf01
18:28:09  *** Sacro|Uni [~ben@adsl-87-102-39-137.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Quit: leaving]
18:28:32  <Wolf01> hello Belugas :)
18:32:27  <Priski> Damn, adding scenario sure takes lots of edits on wiki :/
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18:36:57  <Antdovu> is there an easy way of creating a new type of window in ottd?
18:38:56  <frosch123> @seen Vikthor
18:38:56  <DorpsGek> frosch123: Vikthor was last seen in #openttd 20 hours, 38 minutes, and 40 seconds ago: <Vikthor> night
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18:47:35  <Belugas> Antdovu: it's not that hard. it's just a bit tedious
18:49:43  <Belugas> roughly: need to create the widgets array (boring part) ad the window's class, who is responsible for handling creation, painting and events
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18:54:13  <Killer11> hello everyone
18:56:22  <Prof_Frink> Oh, wow
18:57:04  <Prof_Frink> The ability to bridge over more stuff has certainly affected the AI's love of the bridge
18:57:50  <Killer11> lol
18:58:04  <Killer11> dang i need to test that
18:58:25  <Prof_Frink> It's built a track, doubled back on itself and bridged directly over itself
18:58:25  <Killer11> got any retarded screenshots?
18:58:32  <Prof_Frink> then doubled back again
18:58:41  <Killer11> that's KINDA awesome
19:00:04  <Killer11> i have almost rebuilt my lithuanian set
19:00:16  <Killer11> one engine left to reinclude
19:00:34  <Killer11> God i LOVE my D1 DMU
19:00:51  <Killer11> was certainly one of my better works
19:01:01  <Killer11> and it was my 2nd ever train graphic
19:01:16  <Prof_Frink>
19:01:17  <Antdovu> that doesn't stop it from building 5 lines between 2 points and using sharp corners everywhere so all the trains get stuck
19:02:12  <DASPRiD> Eddi|zuHause, frosch123: thanks for your help, I've got the php grf decoder up and running :)
19:03:27  <Antdovu> does noai support multiple ai-s in the same company?
19:05:08  <Antdovu> it could be a great way to add garbage collection
19:06:36  <Prof_Frink> Oh, so close...
19:06:53  <Prof_Frink> "Prenway Station #1336"
19:09:39  <Yexo> <Antdovu> does noai support multiple ai-s in the same company? <- no, only one AI per company, and no human players in the same company as an AI
19:09:55  <Eddi|zuHause> Prof_Frink: better luck next time :p
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19:11:43  <Antdovu> I guess that means no FrenchMaidAI
19:12:24  <Aali> multiple AI's in the same company would be a great way to add insanity
19:12:58  <Antdovu> if they don't cooperate then obviously
19:12:59  <Aali> not only do AI's have to keep track of everything happening in the ottd world, they have to keep each other in check too
19:13:17  <Antdovu> it is the same with humans
19:13:30  <Antdovu> but openttdcoop isn't too bad, is it?
19:13:49  <Aali> last i checked, openttdcoop wasn't a bunch of AI's
19:13:57  <Antdovu> that is the point ;)
19:14:21  <Eddi|zuHause> you can try to import multiple AIs into a controller AI
19:14:24  <Aali> i dont see your point
19:14:50  <Eddi|zuHause> or simply program one AI with a split personaltiy
19:15:11  <Antdovu> two human players in a single company might have problems as well
19:15:40  <Prof_Frink> manicdepressiveai: Builds loads of tracks really fast... then dynamites the lot.
19:15:40  <Aali> two human players in a company can understand each other
19:16:20  <Antdovu> Aali: just join a popular game and don't use a password
19:16:48  <Aali> and what does that prove?
19:16:59  <Aali> that there are idiots on this earth?
19:17:01  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't see a point in putting two AIs together that are not specifically prepared for it
19:17:08  <Aali> i knew that already, thank you very much
19:17:30  <Belugas> idiots on this earth?  I'd be lloking over forums for those...
19:18:05  <Antdovu> Eddi|zuHause: my idea was that the "garbage collector" AI would be kind of like garbage collection in Java
19:18:48  <Aali> so just implement a garbage collector in your AI
19:19:04  <Antdovu> yeah, that's like C/C++
19:19:34  <Antdovu> I am not really fighting for or against either of them
19:19:44  <Antdovu> it is just a mind game
19:19:53  <Aali> you're not really going anywhere with any of this, i can see that
19:19:54  <Eddi|zuHause> if you try to mimic programming languages, how do you determine apart abandoned tracks from unfinished tracks?
19:20:10  <Antdovu> age?
19:20:18  <Eddi|zuHause> as opposed to objects that have no references anymore
19:20:43  <Eddi|zuHause> Antdovu: what if the track takes 5 years to finish?
19:21:02  <Killer11> ur scroooood!
19:21:04  <Aali> now that would be funny
19:21:04  <Killer11> no really
19:21:05  <Killer11> bad end
19:21:11  <Antdovu> you could have a concept of a side track
19:21:23  <Aali> you run out of money, and the "garbage collector" destroys everything you've built
19:21:41  <Eddi|zuHause> you're making less and less sense with every statement you make...
19:21:52  <Killer11> ok seriously i need to get that last train coded
19:22:33  <Antdovu> Eddi|zuHause: me?
19:23:00  <Eddi|zuHause> no, your alter ego, that is talking garbage (collection)
19:23:30  <Antdovu> I am talking about AI, not AS :P
19:24:01  <Antdovu> there is no shortage of artificial stupidity :P
19:25:20  <Aali> who said anything about artificial stupidity?
19:25:26  <Aali> this is real stupidity
19:26:01  <Antdovu> if done incorrectly then yes, it might destroy non-completed track, it might not understand what is being used etc.
19:26:27  <Antdovu> but there is no fundamental reason for it to actually do anything like that
19:26:45  <Aali> which is why this is a bad idea, if coupled to the "real" AI, it wouldn't have to guess
19:27:48  <Belugas> Boring
19:27:51  <Antdovu> it depends on the level you want to achieve
19:27:52  <Belugas> Machines
19:27:56  <Belugas> Disturb
19:27:58  <Belugas> Sleep
19:28:41  <Antdovu> one approach would require garbage collection from all AIs, the other would not
19:29:16  <Antdovu> obviously both ways have their pros and cons.
19:30:07  <Aali> if you really want to do this, a high-level resource manager library (with garbage collection) would probably be more useful
19:30:27  <Aali> that way its not AI-dependant and not as clueless
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19:47:57  <Killer11> ok Set is reimplemented
19:48:03  <Killer11> so
19:48:16  <Killer11> would there be anyone willing to test?
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19:52:20  <Patrick> sup guys
19:52:22  <Patrick> long time no see
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19:53:43  <Patrick> I have a conundrum for you concerning transfer orders
19:53:51  <Patrick> I have the order - transfer and wait for full load
19:54:07  <Patrick> and my trains just reload the stuff they dropped off if there isn't someone else waitloading on that cargo
19:55:34  <Aali> and why wouldn't they? you told them to full load
19:57:23  <Patrick> becuase I don't see how I can actually transfer any cargo then
19:57:29  <Patrick> or the purpose of that order
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19:57:44  <Patrick> I want to relay passengers in both directions through an exchange
19:57:58  <Aali> indeed, that combination of order flags is fairly useless
19:58:02  <Antdovu> pretty sure that that is impossible
19:58:04  <Aali> you want cargodest, then
19:58:14  <Yexo> that's only possible if you split the transfer station in two
19:58:18  <Patrick> my pax have an "en-route" flag on it
19:58:19  <Patrick> ah
19:58:22  <Patrick> this is actually an accident
19:58:35  <Patrick> I built my goods dropoff shuttles from engines that could hold pax
19:58:52  <Patrick> and now they're all full of people going round and round and round in a big circle
19:58:58  <Patrick> my pickup doesn't accept pax, so ...
19:59:58  <Aali> with cargodest you dont have to worry about transfers, the cargo will route itself through your network
20:00:32  <Patrick> is it done?
20:00:38  <Patrick> last I heard this was speculative
20:00:41  *** Nite_Owl [] has joined #openttd
20:00:56  <Belugas> [14:50] <Patrick> long time no see  <-- heheh
20:01:04  <Nite_Owl> Hello all
20:01:28  <Yexo> it's not yet in trunk, but it is (almost) done
20:01:32  <Patrick> neato
20:01:34  <Aali> Patrick: well, cargodest isn't "done", but its certainly functional
20:01:35  <ln> is it *the* Patrick`?
20:01:39  <Yexo> see
20:01:43  <Patrick> oh, not this knob jockey again
20:01:45  <Patrick> how are you ln
20:01:56  <ln> i'm fine thank you
20:02:01  <Patrick> pleased to hear it
20:02:24  <ln> and you, sir?
20:02:32  <Patrick> I've been better
20:02:39  <Antdovu> anyone know any XML editors/viewers for windows that don't die on a file just a few MB large?
20:04:19  <Patrick> Aali: well, the flags aren't totally useless, I just need a waitload train and it Just Works
20:04:42  <Aali> still, fairly useless :)
20:05:13  <Patrick> not quite
20:05:29  <Patrick> now I can have trains that carry two types of cargo and deliver one at the same station they route the other one to
20:05:36  <Patrick> without any extra orders or linework
20:05:37  <Vikthor> frosch123: Your patch seems to be working, thank you very much.
20:05:44  <Patrick> man, so many new faces
20:05:52  <Patrick> and some very old ones as well
20:06:04  <Aali> Patrick: with cargodest all you need is regular goto orders ;)
20:07:14  <Patrick> I prefer it that my cattle can't read maps
20:07:26  <Patrick> next they'll operate automatic weapons and it'll be a tom lehrer song
20:07:34  *** Dred_furst [] has joined #openttd
20:11:30  <frosch123> Vikthor: thanks for testing :)
20:12:58  <Vikthor> though I tested it only for RVs
20:14:01  <Patrick> huh
20:14:09  <Patrick> who wrote timetabling and shared order management
20:14:11  <Patrick> you've been busy
20:14:24  <planetmaker> exist at least for a year.
20:14:31  <planetmaker> in trunk
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20:20:24  <Antdovu> Vikthor, frosch123: what does the patch do?
20:20:52  <Vikthor> Allows for refiting to zero capacity
20:21:00  <Patrick> so, um
20:21:08  <Patrick> big planes crash and die horribly at commuter airports?
20:24:03  *** sulai [] has joined #openttd
20:26:15  <Nite_Owl> with alarming frequency - it is considered a small airport
20:26:23  <CIA-5> OpenTTD: frosch * r14578 /trunk/src/ (roadveh_cmd.cpp train_cmd.cpp): -Fix (r2389, r10811)[FS#Vikthor]: Allow capacity callbacks (15, 36) to return zero capacity.
20:27:02  <Vikthor> hey, I do not feel like being a FS bug number :p
20:27:45  <Vikthor> but thank you for the fix
20:28:13  <frosch123> <- true, sorry :)
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20:49:52  <Killer11> anyone wants to try a new set?
20:50:05  <Killer11> 6 trains and 1 truck
20:50:11  <Killer11> not big but could be fun
20:52:10  <ln> how many pink ponies?
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20:53:09  <benjamingoodger> OMG PONIES!!
20:55:08  <Belugas> OMG!!! A Commit :D
20:55:16  <Killer11> no ponies
20:55:17  <Killer11> just
20:55:25  <Killer11> MAILMEN
20:56:15  <benjamingoodger> eh?
20:56:49  <Killer11> you obviously don't know how horrible can mailmen be
20:57:10  <Killer11> and ponies are overused
20:57:52  <Antdovu> yeah, unicorns FTW!
20:57:58  <benjamingoodger> er, quite
20:58:03  <Killer11> GOATS
20:58:34  <Antdovu> I don't want to know why you like goats, everyone likes unicorns
20:58:56  <Killer11> becouse goats are constantly high
20:59:05  <Killer11> they usualy eat anythign you give them
20:59:10  <Killer11> not caring what it is
20:59:25  <Killer11> or how dangerous it is to eat it
20:59:30  <benjamingoodger> my system of RFID-tagged vacuum tubes is far superior to the british postal system; unfortunately, it will never be implemented, because the british postal system is an effective state monopoly
20:59:46  <benjamingoodger> also, I cba to chuck the hundreds of millions of pounds at it that it would require to get set up
21:00:02  <Killer11> oh that is nothing my friend
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21:00:25  <AgentLeMan>  hello everybody :o) can someone help me with an error i get while compiling? the error is "C:\Program Files\Microsoft SDKs\Windows\v6.0A\include\winnt.h(7818) : error C4430: missing type specifier - int assumed." even though i redirected msvc8 to the downloaded SDK.
21:00:25  <Killer11> lets not forget american mail system run my GREASY REDNECK Mailmen
21:00:47  <Vikthor> (21:58:40) Antdovu: I don't want to know why you like goats, everyone likes unicorns -- hmmm unicorns ...
21:00:55  <benjamingoodger> ¬.¬
21:01:57  <AgentLeMan> or was that not enough info?
21:03:20  <glx> AgentLeMan: I use v6.1
21:04:12  <Antdovu> I use v6.0A without problems
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21:04:40  <glx> but I had no problem with v6.0A (except it doesn't support vista icons)
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21:04:56  <Antdovu> except that building a release takes about 3 * forever
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21:05:07  <glx> that's MSVC :)
21:05:23  <Antdovu> what do you mean it doesn't support vista icons?
21:06:32  <glx> rc.exe doesn't understand the format used for big icons in vista
21:06:48  <AgentLeMan> glx, hm, i set up the system with turtoisesvn and all the downlaoded things as described in uhm... "readme_windows_msvc.txt" of the source of 0.6.3 . ( using win xp here ) and i thought, as i told MSVC that is hall use the downloaded libraries.. now it still searches in the other folder :o( im lost
21:07:11  <AgentLeMan> is hall = it shall
21:07:27  <Antdovu> glx: so I am just missing big icons?
21:07:27  <AgentLeMan> sadly buildopenttd wont work for me either
21:08:02  <glx> there are no big icons for openttd for now
21:08:29  <glx> but maybe one day we'll use it (and most MSVC 2005 users will have compile failure)
21:08:52  <Antdovu> I still have the orange square + $ sign icon...
21:08:52  <AgentLeMan> oh, wait, i think i found the error °growls°
21:09:16  <AgentLeMan> the readme says "NOTE: make sure that the directory for the DirectX SDK is the first one in the
21:09:16  <AgentLeMan> list, above all others, otherwise compilation will most likely fail!!"
21:09:36  <AgentLeMan> but... i na forumpost i read, it has actually to be at the end of the list
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21:11:28  <glx> Antdovu: vista needs a 256*256 icon
21:11:53  <glx> hmm wait 256*256 is very big
21:12:07  <benjamingoodger> ha, imagine if any OS needed a 512x512 one...that'd be stupid...
21:12:10  <benjamingoodger> oh, wait.
21:12:31  <AgentLeMan> glx, what do you use to compile it?
21:15:22  <glx> 2005 express and 2008 express
21:15:38  <AgentLeMan> hm, same as i ( 2008 express )
21:15:39  <glx> SDK v6.1 is installed with 2008 express
21:15:54  <AgentLeMan> okay, it works now, just getting various other errors
21:16:32  <AgentLeMan> so it really has to be at the lower end of the list, not the top, as "first one" implies
21:16:35  <glx> you don't need to install platform sdk yourself for 2008 express
21:16:45  <glx> but you need DX SDK
21:17:00  <AgentLeMan> hm, i did already, as said, like written in the compile.readme
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21:17:59  <glx> $(WindowsSdkDir)\include <-- this one is the sdk
21:18:12  <glx> compile.readme is old
21:18:17  <glx> and maybe outdated
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21:18:30  <AgentLeMan> oh :o(
21:18:42  <glx> wiki is more accurate I think
21:18:44  <AgentLeMan> "Compiling OpenTTD using Microsoft Visual C++
21:18:44  <AgentLeMan> January 2, 2007"
21:18:48  <AgentLeMan> yikes, your right
21:19:06  <glx> btw it's valid for 2005 express I think :)
21:19:26  <AgentLeMan> well, i dont get the sdk errors anymore. thats solved
21:19:47  <AgentLeMan> but as it seems, i now need and older DX SDK, as the newer one doesnt support direcvt music (?)
21:20:05  <glx> right
21:20:52  <glx> I use april 07
21:20:53  <AgentLeMan> i found a forujmpost with a link to the wiki
21:21:06  <Antdovu> the music isn't any good anyway...
21:21:49  <benjamingoodger> you take that back!
21:21:51  <Antdovu> do you have the sound effects if compiled without music?
21:21:52  <benjamingoodger> :)
21:22:03  <glx> Antdovu: yes
21:22:18  <glx> and you also have music without dmusic
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21:22:28  <Antdovu> :S
21:23:01  <Antdovu> so why would you need the old directx music stuff?
21:23:36  <glx> because win32 music doesn't work for some people while dmusic works
21:24:34  <AgentLeMan> glx, i assume, i have to deinstall the new SDK? or can i just extract it to somewhere and move the files over as an added SDK and then reference it ( somehow?)
21:24:51  <AgentLeMan> oh hell... another 450 MB
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21:25:52  <glx> the wiki says you can extract the required files from the older DX SDK
21:26:29  <glx> but as I don't do any DX programming I just have the old SDK :)
21:26:50  <AgentLeMan> °blushes° sorry.
21:28:15  * Belugas leaves in a hurry and waves good night to those who care
21:28:25  <Vikthor> night, Belugas
21:28:30  <AgentLeMan> good night, Belugas
21:28:36  <AgentLeMan> °does care°
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21:29:13  <Antdovu> that's what she said
21:29:34  <AgentLeMan> well, emoted ;o)
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21:51:53  <ln> so.. err.. in CUDA, besides the actual __global__ function that does things on GPU, one is supposed to have a host function. but since the host function is in the .cu, is it like compiled to object code by nvcc, or what?
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22:06:01  <AgentLeMan> glx, your right °yawns° it takes aaaages
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22:21:06  <dihedral> \o/ found a bug in orders :-P
22:21:34  <dihedral> 2 vehicles with no orders, let them share the (empty) orders
22:21:54  <dihedral> delete the second vehicle
22:21:59  <dihedral> create a new vehicle
22:22:08  <dihedral> orders are still shared
22:23:20  <Ammler> that is a feature :P
22:23:41  <Ammler> if you delete a vehicle and create one, it does use the just deleted orders.
22:24:09  <Ammler> iirc, that was in TTO already.
22:24:23  <AgentLeMan> must be the same driver then, who just not wants to  learn a new route, as hes old
22:25:10  <Antdovu> did you know that pink, sparkling unicorns drive vehicles in ottd?
22:25:49  <Ammler> dunno, how long the "TTL" is.
22:26:10  <Ammler> :-)
22:26:31  <Antdovu> unicorns never die
22:26:47  <Antdovu> except when run over by a train
22:27:04  <benjamingoodger> ah
22:27:13  <benjamingoodger> that explains why the drivers never need to rest
22:28:49  <AgentLeMan>
22:29:13  <benjamingoodger> may god have mercy on our souls
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22:31:18  <AgentLeMan> the drivers have the easiest job in ottd.... imagone how those masses must suffer, who, if you change your companycolor, run around like crazy in the land and repaint railfences, cars, trains and all that. WHILE they move those trains....
22:32:18  *** Spoons [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:32:22  <Antdovu> what about repainting the flying planes? ;)
22:32:30  *** TinoM [] has quit [Quit: Verlassend]
22:32:40  <Antdovu> that should be fun :)
22:32:58  <Prof_Frink> Antdovu: Paintball anti-aircraft guns.
22:33:34  <AgentLeMan> LOL
22:34:15  <Antdovu> anyone have any good unicorn pictures?
22:34:17  <AgentLeMan> dang, where the hell is my trunk?
22:34:28  <Antdovu> wallpaper size
22:35:09  <AgentLeMan> Antdovu.. actually, i have a photo of YOU
22:35:11  <AgentLeMan>
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22:35:55  <Antdovu> how did you manage to take that photo?
22:35:58  <AgentLeMan> its 1280x1225 pixels, should be enough as wallpaper
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22:37:25  <AgentLeMan> im resourceful ;o)
22:37:48  <Wolf01> 'night
22:37:51  <Antdovu> great, then I can casually use it in a lab
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22:38:52  <AgentLeMan> wooooooohooooo, a clean build! °dances around happyly°
22:39:07  <AgentLeMan> now  ican look for the stuff im intersted to change
22:39:41  <Antdovu> yeah, and you can make it crash more often :)
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22:39:50  <Antdovu> I'm an expert at that
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22:42:49  <AgentLeMan> hmmm, Antdovu, you just injected anidea into me... crash more often?...
22:43:02  <AgentLeMan> make cars crash trains too!
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22:45:21  <AgentLeMan> °waves° thanks for help and a good day/night to you all :o)
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