Log for #openttd on 19th November 2008:
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07:35:20  <gynter> hello, when can I make something like this, in openttd?
07:37:56  <planetmaker> morning folks
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07:39:23  <planetmaker> gynter: you can - just depends how many tiles you want to use for it :)
07:39:46  <gynter> :P
07:40:22  <planetmaker> there are no diagonal roads and I haven't ever seen a patch for it and no one discuss it earnestly either.
07:40:42  <gynter> ye thats sad
07:40:49  <gynter> diagonal tunnels and bridges would be good too
07:40:55  <gynter> is there patch for those?
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07:42:28  <petern> "isometric" worlds don't really lend themselves to diagonals
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08:15:59  <planetmaker> petern: isometric view in itself doesn't say anything about a rotational thing. It just excludes scaling due to distance effects :P Sure enough, in games' reality it holds true, though :)
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08:17:55  <Celestar> heh
08:18:10  <Celestar> a female austronaut lost her "handbag" yesterday during an EVA :P
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08:19:48  <planetmaker> :D
08:20:12  <planetmaker> top of the loss-list, I assume, are space lipstick and a beauty mirror? ;)
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08:20:28  <Celestar> nah, it was full of tools
08:20:37  <Celestar> nail clippers, etc. :P
08:20:49  <planetmaker> :P got a link?
08:20:59  <Celestar> has a small story
08:21:04  <Celestar> and several other newspapers
08:21:28  <planetmaker> I only briefly scimmed over spiegel and didn't see it :)
08:21:31  <planetmaker> thx mate
08:21:39  <petern> planetmaker, no that's orthogonal vs perspective rendering...
08:22:13  <Celestar> i think it was on nasa tv as well
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08:23:45  <planetmaker> petern: hm, then I might have till now understood "isometric" wrongly :) Thx for pointing out, you're right.
08:24:09  <planetmaker> it's more restrictive than  I thought.
08:24:32  <Celestar> 60° 60° 90°
08:24:36  <Celestar> 1:1:1
08:24:39  <Celestar> that's isometric (=
08:25:51  <Celestar> why am I always hungry? :S
08:26:12  <Zahl> cause you never eat
08:27:27  <planetmaker> hm... I think strictly speaking OpenTTD might not be isometric as the diagonals (e.g. tile borders) are not 60° but something like 45° (or am I wrong again?) off the vertical.
08:27:53  <petern> you are wrong :)
08:27:54  <planetmaker> Celestar: that's because of the omni-present low-carb, low-fat, low-protein diet. Very unhealthy :)
08:27:57  <petern> it's not isometric
08:28:01  <petern> it's trimetric
08:28:39  <planetmaker> hm? You say OpenTTD is tri-metric?
08:28:40  <gynter> it was a toolbag
08:28:45  <gynter> not handbag'
08:29:21  <petern> hmm
08:29:33  <gynter> didn't knew that..
08:29:34  <petern> no
08:29:38  <petern> i meant axonomic
08:29:44  <petern> axonometric
08:29:45  <petern> even
08:30:13  <petern> hmm, no
08:30:20  <planetmaker> well, wiki tells that isometric projection is an axonometric one :)
08:30:22  <petern> axonometric covers isometric anyway, hehe
08:30:23  <petern> yeah
08:30:40  <petern> and it explains the reasons why computer graphics are the way they are :p
08:30:54  <planetmaker> yep :)
08:32:05  <planetmaker> dimetric projection is it :)
08:32:15  <DASPRiD> pm \o/
08:32:28  <planetmaker> moin DASPRiD
08:32:31  * Celestar burps
08:32:51  <planetmaker> cheers.
08:32:54  <DASPRiD> pm: see :)
08:33:37  <planetmaker> I'd say: congrats, DASPRiD :)
08:33:42  <DASPRiD> :)
08:33:57  <DASPRiD> we have no snow in germany, but at least on my website ;)
08:34:13  <Celestar> there IS snow in Germany ...
08:34:14  <planetmaker> :P
08:34:30  <DASPRiD> Celestar, not in the places i life :)
08:34:41  <Celestar> where do you live?
08:34:50  <DASPRiD> karlsruhe
08:34:54  <DASPRiD> and bonn
08:35:01  <Celestar> ah
08:35:06  <Celestar> the warmer regions (=
08:35:10  <DASPRiD> indeed
08:35:11  <DASPRiD> :/
08:35:13  <Celestar> I'll be in Bonn on Saturday
08:35:17  <DASPRiD> oh heh
08:35:58  <DASPRiD> what are you doing there?
08:36:12  <Celestar> Watching the Ballroom World Championship ;)
08:36:19  <DASPRiD> oh :x
08:36:29  <planetmaker> Celestar: is it a dancing competition?
08:36:32  <Celestar> yeah
08:36:36  <planetmaker> cool.
08:36:42  <planetmaker> classic or latin or both?
08:36:46  <Celestar> I got a 58 EUR ticket from Munich to Bonn and back. good price.
08:36:47  <DASPRiD> pm: you'd loose, nevermind :P
08:36:50  <Celestar> planetmaker: classic
08:37:08  <planetmaker> nice :) Does your girlfriend take part? ;)
08:37:28  <Celestar> nope, she comes with me (=
08:37:33  <planetmaker> :)
08:37:55  <planetmaker> my girlfriend doesn't like dancing :S
08:38:21  <Celestar> now that's a first :D
08:38:52  <DASPRiD> i have no girlfriend :S
08:39:38  <gynter> There's snow in Estonia too
08:39:48  <gynter> second day in snow already :P
08:40:03  <Celestar> O_o the ISS needs a spacewalk just to lubricate the bearings of the SARJs?
08:40:12  <Celestar> this whole design is totally fucked up
08:42:58  <planetmaker> hehe. The design is 30 years old :P
08:43:57  <Celestar> "The correct way to build a space station is to design a heavy-lift launch vehicle and use it to launch the station to space *in one piece*"
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08:44:40  <gynter> push it using lasers
08:44:50  <Celestar> an Saturn V is enough.
08:44:55  <Celestar> Skylab has proven that
08:45:09  <Celestar> in 1973!
08:45:20  <Celestar> single launch space station
08:45:27  <Celestar> about the same usable volume as the ISS
08:46:01  <Celestar> less than 1/25th of the cost (adjusted for inflation)
08:47:09  <Celestar> plus, when not needed, it could be shut down and deserted, and then be re-activated a year later
08:47:30  <Celestar> plus, it wasn't in the totally idotic orbit the ISS is in.
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08:48:47  <Celestar> it can't be used as a stopover or save haven for any usable destination
08:49:29  <Celestar> but we learnt one thing from the ISS: How not to build an orbital structure (=
08:49:42  <DASPRiD> push it using emitting high-engery light
08:49:51  <DASPRiD> (called photon-engine)
08:50:03  <Celestar> very nice for space transportation, pretty unuable for launching stuff
08:50:23  <Qball> we just need a moon-base
08:50:38  <Celestar> that we do.
08:50:54  <Celestar> and it will NOT be built in 10-ton chunks
08:51:34  <Qball> think of the most idiotic way you can build it, then add some stupid.. that will be it
08:51:46  <benjamingoodger> I would have thought that the world's governments had better things to spend money on at this time than space exploration, which is --- let's face it --- largely pointless
08:51:57  <Celestar> I beg to differ
08:52:19  <Celestar> not to be rude, but that's an incredibly shortsighted attitude
08:52:28  <benjamingoodger> I'm sure it is
08:52:36  <benjamingoodger> but, hey, humans are shortsighted
08:52:48  <benjamingoodger> I don't plan to live for more than sixty-five more years
08:52:51  <Celestar> people were sure the Earth was a disk ....
08:52:58  <planetmaker> he, I noted in the wiki that it's actually a dimetric view instead of isometric - with a link to en.wikipedia now :)
08:53:26  <Celestar> benjamingoodger: you sound like an average politician :D
08:53:33  <planetmaker> [09:47]	<Celestar>	"The correct way to build a space station is to design a heavy-lift launch vehicle and use it to launch the station to space *in one piece*" <-- why is that 'correct'?
08:53:40  <planetmaker> and where do you get a Saturn V?
08:53:44  <benjamingoodger> actually, nobody of significance has ever thought the earth was a disc
08:54:11  <Gekz> it's not a disc
08:54:17  <Gekz> it's clearly a hypercube
08:54:34  <Celestar> planetmaker: because its cheaper, more reliable, can actually be on time and gives you the added bonus of a heavy lifter
08:54:35  <planetmaker> hypersphere.
08:54:35  <benjamingoodger> starting from the ancient greeks, everyone has always known it to be round
08:54:46  <benjamingoodger> or nearly round, at least
08:54:49  <Gekz> planetmaker: that's the universe
08:54:55  <planetmaker> I still want a space escalator.
08:55:09  <planetmaker> nasty nanotubes are not reliable enough yet... :S
08:55:13  <Gekz> planetmaker: visualising a hypersphere, or at least attempting it, caused me to have a seizure
08:55:13  <Celestar> planetmaker: give us the material and we will build it (=
08:55:19  <benjamingoodger> so, Celestar, what use do you think space exploration has?
08:55:20  <Gekz> it caused my seizure to have a seirzure
08:55:21  <Gekz> lol
08:55:34  <Eddi|zuHause> if you build it, he will come
08:55:38  <Celestar> benjamingoodger: what use does exploration have ?
08:55:41  <planetmaker> Gekz: most interesting fact: 7D sphere has the biggest surface to volume ratio for all dimensions ;)
08:56:07  <planetmaker> IIRC that is ;)
08:56:55  <Gekz> dont make me cry please
08:56:56  <benjamingoodger> we're not going to get any benefit from lunar exploration in our lifetimes or indeed ever, with the exceedingly improbable exception of helium-3 mining
08:56:56  <Gekz> lol
08:57:11  <Celestar> benjamingoodger: long story short: 1) to solve Earth's problems, 2) to turn us into a multi-planet species.
08:57:30  <Qball> I want moonbase
08:57:30  <Eddi|zuHause> Gekz: it's really easy, you just find a representation for arbitrary dimensions, and then have 7 dimensions as a simple special case
08:57:39  <planetmaker> benjamingoodger: there was no advantage to finding a shiping route to india sailing westwards either.
08:57:51  <benjamingoodger> planetmaker: bollocks
08:57:54  <Celestar> Mining the He-3 from the Moon at 4ppb is pretty stupid if it is readily available in huge quantities as Saturn.
08:58:01  <Celestar> benjamingoodger: no, planetmaker is absolutely right
08:58:03  <benjamingoodger> the advantages have always been clearly stated
08:58:04  <DASPRiD> Celestar, that doesnt solve our problems ;)
08:58:13  <Celestar> DASPRiD: many of them.
08:58:14  <DASPRiD> even when you ship a million people to mars (very hard)
08:58:17  <benjamingoodger> it was a faster route
08:58:25  <DASPRiD> still 6 billiion remain here
08:58:29  <Celestar> DASPRiD: and?
08:58:33  <DASPRiD> nothing solved
08:58:34  <planetmaker> obviously not. And it was guarded by monsters and all.
08:58:35  <DASPRiD> except
08:58:40  <DASPRiD> when on of the million is bill gates
08:58:41  <benjamingoodger> why would you want to ship a million people to mars?
08:58:44  <DASPRiD> then you solved many problems
08:58:57  <Celestar> the thing is not to ship a million people to mars.
08:59:02  <benjamingoodger> there is nothing on mars except a huge carbon dioxide atmosphere
08:59:05  <Eddi|zuHause> benjamingoodger: the only reason the spanish started to find a different route to india was that the portuguese already controlled the other one...
08:59:05  <DASPRiD> Celestar, but?
08:59:06  <benjamingoodger> and we have enough carbon dioxide already
08:59:08  <Celestar> the thing is to solve the energy problem we have HERE.
08:59:26  <benjamingoodger> Eddi|zuHause: well, then... the advantage is clearly obvious nonetheless
08:59:27  <DASPRiD> Celestar, how are they solved by multi-planet?
08:59:34  <gynter> black humor (i'm not a racist): "Ship all the black people and jews, then problem is solved."
08:59:35  <planetmaker> benjamingoodger: except... water, all kinds of ore, anything you need to sustain life :)
08:59:44  <benjamingoodger> hmm
08:59:46  <DASPRiD> planetmaker, yeah we just need some terraforming
08:59:48  <Celestar> DASPRiD: multi planet solves another problem..
08:59:49  <gynter> it's a quote from somebody who I can't remember
08:59:53  <DASPRiD> Celestar, tell
08:59:54  <gynter> recall*
08:59:56  <benjamingoodger> we don't yet have any actual proof that there is water on mars
09:00:00  <Celestar> DASPRiD: like surviving when Earth goes boom?
09:00:05  <planetmaker> DASPRiD: start with small habitats.
09:00:07  <gynter> but there's tractors on mars!
09:00:08  <planetmaker> feasable.
09:00:19  <benjamingoodger> earth is not going to go boom, for god's sake!
09:00:25  <Celestar> ...
09:00:29  <DASPRiD> Celestar, well very long term vision :P
09:00:30  <benjamingoodger> well
09:00:36  <benjamingoodger> not before mars goes boom, at least
09:00:36  <Celestar> Earth goes boom about every 60 million years.
09:00:38  <DASPRiD> but it doesnt solve energy problems does it?
09:00:46  <Celestar> DASPRiD: He-3 will solve the energy problem
09:00:52  <gynter> Celestar, i don't care, I'm dead then
09:00:53  <Eddi|zuHause> and it's 5 million years late :p
09:01:05  <Celestar> gynter: yeah, you sound even worse than the average politician.
09:01:09  <gynter> :))
09:01:11  <planetmaker> yeah, we could climb trees again... :S
09:01:12  <Celestar> it's not about you, or me.
09:01:30  <benjamingoodger> who, then?
09:01:37  <planetmaker> Celestar: no curiosity, no vision.... :S
09:01:38  <Eddi|zuHause> me.
09:01:39  <Celestar> the generations that FOLLOW us.
09:01:53  <Eddi|zuHause> i plan to live on for more than one generation
09:02:08  <planetmaker> Celestar: I guess the "I have no girlfriend thread" in the forums is that big as it is for a reason. No reason for them to care...
09:02:13  <benjamingoodger> it sounds incredibly heartless, I know, but I really don't care about them
09:02:15  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: thanks
09:02:16  <Qball> benjamingoodger: :D
09:02:25  <benjamingoodger> particularly since I plan never, ever to reproduce. I hate children
09:02:36  <DASPRiD> ;)
09:02:41  <Celestar> benjamingoodger: this has nothing to do with being heartless, this is being, excuse me, stupid.
09:02:45  <planetmaker> benjamingoodger: ok, I may then consider you a selfish brag.
09:02:53  <gynter> Celestar, well, currently theres 2 generations of farmers with iq < 70
09:02:54  <petern> wrong
09:02:55  <petern> he's a twat
09:03:06  <benjamingoodger> planetmaker: as soon as you can define the word "brag"
09:03:17  <planetmaker> I can't. Peter found the word ;)
09:03:28  <benjamingoodger> woop
09:03:48  <benjamingoodger> don't let's degenerate into childish name-calling, you're not global warming theorists
09:04:05  <DASPRiD> well, if america ends like in the movie idocracy, i don't really care if they make boom
09:04:10  <gynter> farmers as brainless teens who thing that driving drunk with BMW is normal
09:04:25  <benjamingoodger> anyway, I still don't see any practical use for further space exploration
09:04:39  <Celestar> what do you see practical use for?
09:04:41  <DASPRiD> benjamingoodger, fun, joy and fluff
09:04:48  <Qball> it keeps people busy
09:04:54  <benjamingoodger> the earth is abundant in practically everything
09:05:01  <planetmaker> 30 years ago there was no practical use for lasers, 80 years ago, everything except small details were already discovered in physics.
09:05:01  <Celestar> O_o
09:05:01  <Qball> make space exploration, not war
09:05:02  <DASPRiD> Qball, playing openttd does that as well
09:05:05  <benjamingoodger> we need never leave it for energy purposes
09:05:09  <planetmaker> Max Planck was advised to study something else.
09:05:40  <Celestar> benjamingoodger: oil is running out..
09:05:43  <benjamingoodger> there is still no practical use for lasers :P
09:05:45  <Celestar> coal a little later
09:05:51  <Eddi|zuHause> benjamingoodger: given that the earths ressources are finite, that's proof that there's never going to be "abundance" of any ressource
09:05:51  <benjamingoodger> I'm not talking about oil
09:05:55  <gynter> maybe start using nuclear power?
09:06:01  <DASPRiD> Celestar, yeah, especcialy after those pirates stole 300 million liters of raw oil ;)
09:06:06  <petern> surgery seems a pretty practical use for lasers
09:06:13  <Celestar> gynter: sounds good to me actually
09:06:19  <Eddi|zuHause> gynter: nuclear power is not unlimited either
09:06:23  <gynter> oh sorry, those greecrapguys are crying about nuclear power
09:06:25  <DASPRiD> yeah
09:06:31  <planetmaker> cd drives... cashier scanners... distance warners...
09:06:35  <gynter> but it'll give use time to find another good resrouce
09:06:35  <benjamingoodger> Eddi|zuHause: well, I don't see our _exceedingly hot_ mantle bleeding away into space
09:06:35  <DASPRiD> uran will run out in about 80 years
09:06:45  <planetmaker> surgery, welding...
09:06:50  <DASPRiD> wedding
09:06:52  <Celestar> why protect the climate? we don't care about future generations anyway.
09:06:53  <benjamingoodger> I also don't see our surface area decreasing
09:07:20  <benjamingoodger> also, we have a big lump of rock going around us
09:07:28  <Eddi|zuHause> they are even concerned that they don't have enough lithium to provide for all the electric cars in the next few decades
09:07:31  <benjamingoodger> which occasionally makes water move up and down!
09:07:33  <gynter> deny all vechiles by lawand waste problem is solved
09:07:38  <gynter> also close all mcdonalds
09:07:40  <gynter> 's
09:07:46  <planetmaker> [10:11]	<benjamingoodger>	also, we have a big lump of rock going around us <-- you think it's better exploitable than Mars?
09:07:55  <Brianetta> Celestar: No need.  Piracy at sea is on the rise.
09:08:01  <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: planetmaker and I have proven that wrong (=
09:08:02  <gynter> k afk
09:08:14  <planetmaker> :P
09:08:24  <benjamingoodger> planetmaker: well, considering I can do it for about £50, I'd say it's a bit more cost-effective
09:08:47  * Celestar shakes head in utter disbelief
09:09:02  <Celestar> I really hope a 20km asteroid hits us SOON.
09:09:14  <benjamingoodger> I'm sure it will
09:09:18  <Celestar> good.
09:09:22  <Celestar> then most of you will be dead.
09:09:25  <Celestar> (=
09:09:25  <planetmaker> Against logic there is no armor like ignorance. - Laurence J. Peter
09:09:33  <benjamingoodger> excellent quote
09:09:41  <benjamingoodger> do I disagree with it? no.
09:09:43  <Eddi|zuHause> benjamingoodger: so, you want to derive >70% of the energy demands of the human race from geothermal and tidal powers?
09:09:59  <Celestar> or make it 30km, then even more will be dead, likely all.
09:10:05  <DASPRiD> geothermal, yeah, kill the planet ^_°
09:10:31  <benjamingoodger> Eddi|zuHause: well, it's not like that's particularly difficult...
09:10:32  <planetmaker> probably we wouldn't even notice such rock with sufficient warning time... :S
09:10:38  <benjamingoodger> expensive, sure, but not difficult
09:10:44  <Celestar> planetmaker: we wouldn't. no chance.
09:10:50  <benjamingoodger> nope
09:11:01  <Celestar> planetmaker: with current technology (i.e. using H-bombs) we'd need about 140 years warning time.
09:11:10  <benjamingoodger> we'd have to build, oh, let's see, two billion space shuttles to escape
09:11:14  <planetmaker> yep...
09:11:23  <Celestar> benjamingoodger: we COULD move the astroid off the way ...
09:11:24  <Eddi|zuHause> it's not that we have a significant amount of geothermal power stations yet...
09:11:27  <planetmaker> benjamingoodger: that's not the point we advocate :)
09:11:32  <planetmaker> you're fighting wind mills.
09:11:57  <benjamingoodger> meh
09:11:59  <Celestar> which is AGES easier to do if you have a smallish Mars base than from Earth.
09:12:21  <planetmaker> best power source is still the sun. It's 1kW/m^2 as opposed to 5W/m^2 geothermal power.
09:12:27  <benjamingoodger> we have more energy radiating onto the earth's land area each second than the entire human race uses a day
09:12:35  <planetmaker> or was it 0.5 or even 0.05W/m^2 geothermal?
09:12:40  <Celestar> yeah, and no means to reasonably extract it.
09:12:42  <benjamingoodger> much smaller than that
09:12:52  <benjamingoodger> it's something like 400 kWh/day
09:13:02  <benjamingoodger> per m^2
09:13:11  <Celestar> we still don't have any kind of solar cells that produce significantly more energy than their production takes.
09:13:32  <benjamingoodger> actually, we do
09:13:41  <benjamingoodger> it's called a stirling engine
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09:13:51  <benjamingoodger> PV cells are appalling, though, I agree
09:13:53  <Celestar> OMG then you're still stuck with thermodynamic cycles.
09:13:58  <Eddi|zuHause> and nobody talks about the disposal costs of this heavy metal contaminated stuff
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09:14:24  <benjamingoodger> OMG you're still stuck with gravitation.
09:14:37  <planetmaker> [10:16]	<Celestar>	we still don't have any kind of solar cells that produce significantly more energy than their production takes. <-- that's not really true anymore afaik
09:14:39  <benjamingoodger> let's move to mars! there's no gravitation there
09:14:52  <planetmaker> ^^ neither true. it's 40% of earth's
09:15:00  <benjamingoodger> I'm being sarcastic
09:15:01  <Celestar> planetmaker: yeah, the best ones (i.e. most cheap ones with about 8-12% efficiency) are around 1.2
09:15:24  <Celestar> planetmaker: this does NOT include shipping, installation and maintenance of cells.
09:15:29  <benjamingoodger> to illustrate my annoyance at celestar insulting me because he doesn't like our universe's physical laws
09:15:31  <planetmaker> [10:18]	<benjamingoodger>	I'm being sarcastic <-- obviously in lack of arguments ;)
09:15:47  <benjamingoodger> I have plenty of arguments
09:16:07  <Celestar> we're eager to hear them, the count so far is: 0
09:16:07  <Eddi|zuHause> none of which brought you any further in this discussion
09:16:15  <planetmaker> ^^
09:17:02  <benjamingoodger> my first argument is that space travel is currently a waste of money, one of its sole legitimate applications being energy generation, which is more cost-effective to do on earth
09:17:15  <Celestar> "one of its sole" ...
09:17:18  <Celestar> ENOPARSE
09:17:36  <benjamingoodger> learn to speak english, you will get on better in life
09:17:40  <Brianetta> Celestar: Why not?  Most pairs of shoes have two soles...
09:17:48  <petern> "one of its sole" does, indeed, not make sense
09:17:57  <benjamingoodger> "sole" is _not_ a singular-only adjective
09:17:58  <petern> sole is one. one of its one?
09:18:06  * Brianetta has two soles
09:18:13  <benjamingoodger> oh well
09:18:14  <petern> okay, that too :p
09:18:16  * keyweed_ has two souls
09:18:23  <Eddi|zuHause> import soul
09:18:34  <benjamingoodger> from soul import trinity
09:18:36  * planetmaker visited Seoul
09:18:40  <Celestar> there are _several_ reasons to go to space
09:18:54  <benjamingoodger> right. reason number 1: show the commies we've got stones
09:19:02  <benjamingoodger> reason number 2: show the chinese we've got stones
09:19:14  <benjamingoodger> reason number 3: pipe-dream energy programmes
09:19:20  <Eddi|zuHause> the most important reason to use _any_ new technology is to increase its efficiency for the next run
09:19:33  <Brianetta> benjamingoodger: Space travel isn't about energy generation.  Ultimately it's about colonisation.  This planet will be pretty much full once we hit 30 billion.  If we choose to cull ourselves, we're not really making any progress as a species.
09:19:46  <benjamingoodger> reason number 4: futile planetary defence schemes
09:19:50  <Qball> There is one good reason about space travel.. I want my frig*** moon base
09:20:05  <planetmaker> Brianetta: he already announced he'll luckily not contribute to human race's growth.
09:20:13  <Brianetta> Qball: I'd rather have a habitat that isn't down a gravity well.
09:20:20  <Qball> luckely
09:20:29  <Celestar> 1) Survival, 2) Preservation, 3) Growth, 4) Evolution, 5) Vision ...
09:20:30  <benjamingoodger> the forces of nature have, so far, done an excellent job of keeping species in check
09:20:33  <Brianetta> planetmaker: I probably won't in the reproductive sense.
09:20:45  <benjamingoodger> when we run out of food, population growth stops
09:20:45  <planetmaker> he :)
09:20:49  <Qball> I don't care.. I want my moon layer
09:21:14  <benjamingoodger> at that point, the problem is its own solution
09:21:34  <Brianetta> So benjamingoodger believes that our species must remain constrained by our gravity well.  That growth is fine until we reach the bounds of our fish tank.
09:21:40  <Eddi|zuHause> Brianetta: where do you get the figure of 30 billion from? the last figure i heard is that current food (=engergy) supply would be expected to sustain 12 billion people (if properly distributed)
09:21:55  <benjamingoodger> well, it's the only fish tank we have
09:21:56  <Brianetta> Eddi|zuHause: Physical space, rather than food.
09:22:04  <Brianetta> benjamingoodger: Unles we build more!
09:22:06  <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: hydrofarming could extended to about 30 billion.
09:22:16  <Celestar> extend that*
09:22:21  <benjamingoodger> hmm
09:22:22  <planetmaker> [10:25]	<benjamingoodger>	well, it's the only fish tank we have <-- and it's not a good idea to look for a 2nd one?
09:22:30  <benjamingoodger> sure
09:22:36  <benjamingoodger> just not when we're in a recession
09:22:40  <Brianetta> There's enough metallic material in the solar system to build plenty of orbital habitats
09:22:42  <Celestar> the 2nd one has been staring into our face since 70s
09:22:46  <planetmaker> oh... yeah, sure.
09:22:50  <Celestar> benjamingoodger: exactly WHEN we're in a recession.
09:22:50  <Eddi|zuHause> we're always in some kind of recession
09:22:55  <benjamingoodger> as I said at the beginning, we have better things to chuck money at
09:23:07  <Brianetta> Money's an artificial construct.
09:23:08  <petern> like banks and car manufacturers...
09:23:13  <Brianetta> You need to get past that thinking.
09:23:13  <Eddi|zuHause> you mean a war in iraq and afghanistan?
09:23:25  <Celestar> yeah. like bailing out incompentent companies like Chrysler and GM?
09:23:27  <planetmaker> yeah... corrupt bankers, inable automobile managers... right. futile wars...
09:23:28  <Eddi|zuHause> which is easily costing more than all space programs in the world combined?
09:23:30  <Brianetta> Money's just a means of rationing.
09:23:39  <benjamingoodger> feeding the people we already have, for instance, rather than providing living space for hypothetical off-world people
09:23:39  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: in one year!
09:23:51  <benjamingoodger> Brianetta: actually, it is not. go look up fiat currency and the banking system
09:23:54  <Brianetta> benjamingoodger: I wouldn't be hypothetical, given the chance.
09:24:02  <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: let's see... all space programs in the world combined cost less than GERMANY pays for the military (which is about nothing).
09:24:08  <Brianetta> Just like all the hypothetical European Americans before colonisation.
09:24:26  <planetmaker> :)
09:24:41  <Eddi|zuHause> well, 80% of germany's tax money goes into social security systems...
09:24:43  <Brianetta> Like Lex Luthor said.  Land.  It's the one thing they're not making any more of.
09:24:54  <benjamingoodger> well, actually, we just rounded up all our religious nut-jobs and piled them into a ship
09:24:55  <Celestar> There's also no momentum to solve the energy problem (read: fusion) ..
09:24:55  <Qball> lets ship all criminal to the moon
09:25:01  <Celestar> no no no
09:25:02  <Qball> with or withouth a moonbase
09:25:04  <Celestar> let them stay on earth (=
09:25:17  <Brianetta> I want to play Elite for real (:
09:25:24  <Celestar> oolite?
09:25:27  <benjamingoodger> Celestar: so you want to form a new race of super-humans that excludes the inferior?
09:25:28  <Brianetta> yah
09:25:30  <Qball> withouth moonbase it is
09:25:33  <Celestar> benjamingoodger: not really.
09:25:35  <Brianetta> with the Hoopy Casinos mod
09:25:49  <benjamingoodger> hrrm
09:25:49  <Celestar> benjamingoodger: but the first few hundres of colonists will need to be carefully selected.
09:26:03  <benjamingoodger> yes, yes
09:26:08  <Brianetta> Celestar: nah... just rich enough
09:26:11  <benjamingoodger> while the rest stay on earth to die
09:26:20  <planetmaker> they need to be sufficiently trained. Like earlier you needed able ship crews to sail the atlantic and indic.
09:26:20  <benjamingoodger> only the fittest to be part of the new world order, etc
09:26:22  <Eddi|zuHause> if you ship all criminals to <remote place>, you'll end up with australia
09:26:26  <Celestar> you wanna die anyway, so what's the problem?
09:26:33  <Brianetta> Australia's not so bad
09:26:38  <benjamingoodger> I thought everyone wanted to die
09:26:47  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, but we already have that ;)
09:26:48  <Celestar> do they?
09:26:52  <benjamingoodger> I don't necessarily want to die in only sixty-five years
09:26:59  <Celestar> do they want humanity to die ?
09:27:00  <Brianetta> benjamingoodger: Everybody's going to die; that's not to say everybody wants it.
09:27:08  <Qball> I don't wnat to live to 65
09:27:17  <Celestar> Qball: more like 650?
09:27:26  <benjamingoodger> can you honestly say that if you personally became unable to die that you'd be happy?
09:27:33  <Qball> naah
09:27:35  <Brianetta> I'd accept that.
09:27:42  <Qball> a few more years is sufficient
09:27:53  <benjamingoodger> you'd get bored
09:27:54  <Celestar> my happiness has nothing to do with me being immortal or not.
09:27:54  <Qball> then I load myself into the computer
09:28:00  <Brianetta> It would suck to see friends grow old and die, but meh.
09:28:16  <benjamingoodger> I refer you to Bicentennial Man
09:28:36  <planetmaker> nice novel.
09:28:37  <Brianetta> Different psychology.
09:28:41  <Celestar> it's not really unlikely that many of us talking here will live well above 100 years ...
09:28:42  <Brianetta> He wasn't human.
09:28:50  <Eddi|zuHause> it's like the Q continuum... if humanity is getting immortal, they'll invent more effective means of killing themselves...
09:28:54  <benjamingoodger> he was eventually...
09:28:59  <Brianetta> Legally.
09:29:06  <benjamingoodger> and biologically
09:29:16  <benjamingoodger> and, in software, from the start
09:29:18  <benjamingoodger> that was the whole point
09:29:37  <Brianetta> I think you're confusing fiction with the point.
09:29:53  <benjamingoodger> that was the point of the character
09:30:12  <Brianetta> It was very entertaining, too.  I never related to him.
09:30:22  <Celestar> I fail to see the connection to growing old or not?
09:30:48  <Eddi|zuHause> the point is, you will never have an effective way space travel if you don't invest time and money into developing the ineffective space travel first
09:30:52  <benjamingoodger> _my_ point is that being unable to die would be horrifying
09:31:14  <Celestar> I'm not talking about individual that are unable to die. I'm talking about the species.
09:31:14  <Gekz> lol wtf
09:31:19  <benjamingoodger> living forever would become torturously boring
09:31:24  <Gekz> This is quite offtopic
09:31:25  <planetmaker> ah, the usual red herring argument ;)
09:31:27  <Gekz> Celestar: BAD OP
09:31:36  <benjamingoodger> well, clearly the species has to die as well
09:31:47  <Gekz> can I kill you all?
09:31:53  <Gekz> I suppose that would be a crime >_>
09:32:00  <benjamingoodger> technically, it would, yes
09:32:04  <Celestar> benjamingoodger: does it have to? why?
09:32:11  <planetmaker> benjamingoodger: why 'clearly'?
09:32:17  <planetmaker> why at all?
09:32:22  <benjamingoodger> every species has to die eventually, to be replaced by a superior species that it evolved into
09:32:34  <Celestar> that's not dying? that's evolving.
09:32:41  <DASPRiD> btw, we don't need to travel to other planets, planetmaker will make us a new one
09:32:49  <planetmaker> no
09:32:54  <Celestar> DASPRiD: which will be quite a bit AWAY
09:32:54  <Gekz> Who wants some stockings
09:33:00  <Eddi|zuHause> humanity getting (near) immortal will effectively slow down the evolutionary cycles, so eventually the evolution of other species will surpass the one of humanity, and they're going to be left behind
09:33:02  <Celestar> you can'T put them in Earth's orbit.
09:33:03  <planetmaker> I will tell you how long to wait for a new one and where to look :)
09:33:13  <DASPRiD> Celestar, but you could replace earth with it :)
09:33:27  <Gekz> Eddi|zuHause: as long as they care for us
09:33:41  <benjamingoodger> Gekz: feeding time!
09:33:45  <Celestar> DASPRiD: there's by far not enough non-planetary material in the solar system to make another Earth-sized planet.
09:33:56  <benjamingoodger> Celestar: try venus
09:34:06  <benjamingoodger> it's very nearly the same size and density
09:34:07  <Celestar> "non planetary".
09:34:13  <Celestar> when last I looked, it was a planet.
09:34:21  <benjamingoodger> no, I mean you don't need to make another planet ¬.¬
09:34:28  <DASPRiD> Celestar, we could start with a tiny one
09:34:36  <Celestar> we have Mars. right
09:34:41  <Celestar> much easier to colonize
09:34:48  <DASPRiD> mars is smaller than earth :/
09:34:53  <benjamingoodger> frankly, mars is boring IMO
09:35:02  <benjamingoodger> CO2 atmosphere, rapidly leaking into space
09:35:07  <benjamingoodger> solid core
09:35:11  <DASPRiD> or how about mirror-erth? just hard to reach ;)
09:35:24  <Celestar> DASPRiD: unstable.
09:35:26  <benjamingoodger> low temperature, iron-rich but not much else
09:35:41  <Celestar> if you mean one in the L3 point.
09:35:41  <DASPRiD> Celestar, yeah i know the physics facts that a mirror earth is not possible :P
09:35:46  <benjamingoodger> you just need to breed plants that can survive at 400 degrees and dump them on venus, and wait for them to produce an oxygen atmosphere
09:35:49  <DASPRiD> Celestar, correct
09:36:01  <Celestar> DASPRiD: a smallish one would be possible.
09:36:20  <planetmaker> benjamingoodger: sure. Much easier than having lichen survive on 10 mbar CO2 atmosphere...
09:36:37  <DASPRiD> Celestar, so lets send our moon there
09:36:38  <DASPRiD> :)
09:36:53  <Eddi|zuHause> benjamingoodger: and then wait 4 billion years for terraforming to kick in?
09:37:09  <DASPRiD> Eddi|zuHause, we have time ;>
09:37:14  <benjamingoodger> meh, plants on venus or lichen on mars, they'll both take the same time
09:37:24  <benjamingoodger> I just think venus is more interesting
09:37:50  <Celestar> I thought you wanted neither?!
09:38:19  <planetmaker> I guess he wants an example where he can say 'impossible'.
09:38:32  <benjamingoodger> I don't want either
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09:38:35  <Celestar> planets could basically grow on Mars now.
09:38:39  <benjamingoodger> it's a waste of my money at this time
09:38:54  <Celestar> it's a waste of money subsidising wind power plants.
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09:39:01  <benjamingoodger> I want clean energy using existing terrestrial technology
09:39:02  <Eddi|zuHause> even if you could plant some kind of stable lifecycle into venus, it can't ever be water based (for physical reasons), and thus never possible to sustain human life
09:39:14  <benjamingoodger> I want socialised healthcare that doesn't kill you in hospital
09:39:17  <planetmaker> yep. Get a chimney and chop down some trees.
09:39:28  <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: it could. put the human colonies underground.
09:39:37  <benjamingoodger> I want an education system that brings out the best in every student
09:39:39  <Celestar> benjamingoodger: we HAVE socialised healthcare.
09:39:56  <benjamingoodger> Celestar: not worldwide
09:40:20  <benjamingoodger> also, the UK's socialised healthcare system is appalling
09:40:24  <planetmaker> then let those people sort it out in the countries who don't have. It's their governement. Not ours. People choose their government.
09:40:30  <benjamingoodger> I imagine the german system is far better
09:40:38  <Eddi|zuHause> we don't even have worldwide food distribution, how do you expect that to work with health systems?
09:40:47  <benjamingoodger> actually, most people don't choose their government
09:41:21  <benjamingoodger> their government is chosen by the people with the most guns, or petrodollars, or the most charismatic method of reading the koran
09:41:30  <benjamingoodger> or the bible...
09:41:30  <planetmaker> you want to force their luck onto them? Look at Iraq and Afghanistan and think again.
09:41:37  <benjamingoodger> no, I do not
09:41:48  <planetmaker> so... what's the point then?
09:41:49  <benjamingoodger> and we both know that those wars weren't about democracy
09:41:56  <Eddi|zuHause> every people gets the government they deserve
09:41:59  <benjamingoodger> there's no point, it's a side issue
09:42:25  <benjamingoodger> Eddi|zuHause: I'd like to believe you don't really mean that
09:42:43  <planetmaker> it's true to some degree.
09:43:01  <planetmaker> Are you willing to become in volved in politics, benjamingoodger ?
09:43:06  <planetmaker> Are you willing to run as PM?
09:43:14  <planetmaker> No? Well, then...
09:43:14  <Eddi|zuHause> if you don't think you deserve your government, there is _ALWAYS_ a way to get involved to change it
09:43:33  <Celestar> Are you willing to be involved in anything outside your own home?
09:43:33  <Eddi|zuHause> even in dictatorships
09:43:44  <Eddi|zuHause> dictators do need personell to support them
09:43:44  <benjamingoodger> the point is that we have problems that can't be solved with space exploration, and other problems that can be solved with far cheaper and easier methods than methods involving space exploration
09:44:03  <Celestar> most dicatatorships didn't step aside, they were thrown over. By people who care.
09:44:04  <benjamingoodger> I am willing to run for prime minister, yes. I have even prepared a lengthy manifesto that I don't currently have on this machine
09:45:10  <benjamingoodger> but if you are a woman with children, living in afghanistan, then you have no choice in your government --- it is decided by which of the local islamo-fascists (I hate using that term, it makes me sound like a Daily Mail reader) has the biggest munitions budget
09:45:41  <planetmaker> you always have a choice.
09:45:48  <Eddi|zuHause> so what? there are also means to improve your own munitions budget
09:45:59  <Eddi|zuHause> if that's what it takes to change the government
09:46:15  <benjamingoodger> *shakes head sadly*
09:47:02  <planetmaker> Mostly there's no "I want it all and I want it now" way though.
09:48:02  <planetmaker> you need to convince other people of your view.
09:48:13  <benjamingoodger> hmm
09:48:24  <benjamingoodger> I think the aforementioned afghanistani women have tried that
09:48:28  <planetmaker> and then even a woman in Afganistan _can_ do things. Remember Butho in Pakistan?
09:48:30  <benjamingoodger> it usually results in stonings.
09:48:50  <benjamingoodger> unfortunately, I will never be elected for prime minister, because the UK's ludicrous two-party system will never elect anyone but Labour or the Tories, and I'd sell both my lungs to raise money for neo-nazis before joining either of those parties
09:49:43  <planetmaker> so you're not really willing to stand up for your opinion and try to convince people?
09:49:53  <benjamingoodger> oh, sure I am
09:49:58  <planetmaker> (the latter is the important part)
09:50:16  <benjamingoodger> it's just that, as I'm not a moron, I know that few will listen to me and fewer will agree
09:50:44  <planetmaker> then you must believe that your idea is not very convincing ;)
09:50:51  <Celestar> hm ..
09:50:55  <benjamingoodger> it's not very convincing, no
09:51:08  <benjamingoodger> good ideas usually aren't, that's why democracy is so flawed
09:51:08  <Celestar> I like the idea of floating cities on Venus :)
09:51:21  <planetmaker> so... either all other people are stupid or your idea isn't that good after all :)
09:51:25  <benjamingoodger> floating on what?
09:51:37  <benjamingoodger> actually, the former is statistically correct
09:52:12  <benjamingoodger> people with an IQ of <110 or so are known to be incapable of making rational political decisions
09:52:27  <Celestar> benjamingoodger: on the exceedingly dense atmosphere.
09:52:34  <benjamingoodger> ah
09:52:41  <Celestar> all you need is a large cushion filled with Nitrogen.
09:52:45  <benjamingoodger> breathing what, then?
09:52:53  <Celestar> er ... oxygen?
09:53:00  <benjamingoodger> generated by?
09:53:06  <Eddi|zuHause> that's a secondary problem to provide an internal atmosphere :)
09:53:07  <Celestar> by photosynthesis?
09:53:09  <planetmaker> CO2 -> C + O2?
09:53:21  <benjamingoodger> planetmaker: that's not even close
09:53:23  <Celestar> there is PLENTY of CO2 on Venus.
09:53:55  <benjamingoodger> so, in fact, you like the idea of a floating suburbia on venus :)
09:53:59  <china> im thinking about building another solar robot
09:54:03  <china> the cats will love it
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09:54:05  <Eddi|zuHause> synthetic photosynthesis would be cool
09:54:14  <benjamingoodger> yes
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09:54:25  <benjamingoodger> unfortunately, if we knew how to do that, we wouldn't have an energy shortage
09:54:56  <Celestar> in an altitude of 50km, Venus has a pressure of about 1 bar and a temperature of around 300K
09:54:58  <Eddi|zuHause> what makes you think that? even if we could do it, it'd take colossal amounts of energy to begin with
09:55:03  <planetmaker> we have sufficient technology. It's only not applied to its fullest extend.
09:55:10  <china>  Eddi|zuHause> synthetic photosynthesis would be cool
09:55:18  <china> oh, sorry
09:55:18  <planetmaker> ... in order to provide sustainable energy.
09:55:22  <china> i was about to write: yes indeed.
09:55:35  <china> actually, i have constructed a planting robot, speaking of wich
09:55:40  <Celestar> and air is a lifting gas on Venus.
09:55:55  <benjamingoodger> I am aware of the basic principles of displacement
09:56:01  <china> it doesnt really have anything to do with the photosynthesis, though its.. well, a big project.
09:56:05  <benjamingoodger> I'm not eight
09:57:06  <Eddi|zuHause> Celestar: well, basically, you'd build a city within a giant balloon
09:57:23  <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: more on top of it, but yeah, that's the basic idea.
09:57:41  <Eddi|zuHause> just that the outer hull of the ballon must be able to sustain sulphuric acid ;)
09:57:54  <planetmaker> :P
09:57:55  <china> i need to read up on synthesis.
09:57:58  <benjamingoodger> oh, yeah, I forgot about the H2SO4
09:58:09  <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: and?
09:58:22  <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: any decent rubber can sustain that ...
09:58:25  <Eddi|zuHause> nothing and... just wanted to point that out ;)
09:59:00  <Celestar> ;)
09:59:23  <china>
09:59:31  <china> excluding the missile drawings.
09:59:39  <Celestar> we could use a similar technology on Saturn. An automated, floating plant that extracts He-3 and H-2 from the atmosphere.
09:59:57  <planetmaker> You would probably go to Enceladus or Europa.
10:00:02  <planetmaker> IF you go that far.
10:00:05  <benjamingoodger> china: start with 6CO2 + 12H2O -> C6H12O6 + 9O2 ... I think
10:00:17  <china> benjamingoodger: wait what.
10:00:18  <Celestar> planetmaker: for the He-3 and H-2 ?
10:00:21  *** Rexxie [~rexxars@] has joined #openttd
10:00:25  <planetmaker> Celestar: for water ;)
10:00:30  *** davis- [] has joined #openttd
10:00:35  <china> benjamingoodger: i have no idea what you just said.
10:00:36  <Celestar> planetmaker: I want fusion fuel, not water :D
10:00:43  <benjamingoodger> china: I think that's the formula for photosynthesis...
10:00:45  <DASPRiD> probably we should try to terraform the moon as a testcase ;P
10:00:52  <Qball> hmm
10:00:57  <benjamingoodger> carbon dioxide + water -> glucose + oxygen
10:01:02  <planetmaker> Helium is scarce on any minor body. But you might still strip it of Saturn itself.
10:01:02  <Celestar> DASPRiD: difficult, it can't hold any reasonable atmosphere.
10:01:04  <benjamingoodger> not sure about the multipliers
10:01:13  <china> benjamingoodger: aha. well, now you know much i know. :D i need to re-read it, study it from a basic scholar lever, so to speak.
10:01:23  <DASPRiD> Celestar, well, at least some paraterraforming
10:01:26  <benjamingoodger> ah
10:01:39  <china> now you know how much i know*
10:01:43  <benjamingoodger> it's poorly understood, hence the lack of artificial implementations
10:02:01  <china> does artificial photosyntesis exist?
10:02:10  <benjamingoodger> not...usefully
10:02:13  <benjamingoodger> at this stage.
10:02:14  <china> ok
10:02:19  <benjamingoodger> regrettably
10:02:20  <Celestar> benjamingoodger: it's not poorly understood, just our means to do it artificially are not efficient enough.
10:02:43  <benjamingoodger> that makes it poorly understood by my book
10:02:58  <DASPRiD> Celestar, i really wonder, at current state of technology, para-terraforming of the moon would be possible
10:03:03  <china> the robot im building doesnt really have anything with the artifical photosynthesis to do. though the idea comes from nasa, where theyre actually trying to build an fully automated planting robot
10:03:17  <china> where the ideas come together.. of some sort
10:03:23  <benjamingoodger> wouldn't that be fairly simple?
10:03:28  * china realizes he doesnt have that much to contribute
10:03:28  <planetmaker> DASPRiD: you'd basically need to build habitats.
10:03:36  <Celestar> DASPRiD: yes of course
10:03:37  <planetmaker> Probably build caves and seal the surface.
10:03:40  <DASPRiD> planetmaker, that is meant by that
10:03:43  <china> well, yes. but still, its a fun project for a technician like me.
10:03:43  <Celestar> it's been possible since the 70s
10:03:45  <benjamingoodger> dig hole, deposit seed, cover hole, irrigate
10:03:57  <FauxFaux> Story of my life.
10:04:00  <benjamingoodger> heh
10:04:12  <Celestar> if some idiot hadn't decided to build the stupid shuttle, we'd have moon habitats by now
10:04:14  <china> benjamingoodger: well, that part is coverd, yes. though, there are still issues about recognizing a good from a bad seed/plant/soil.
10:04:16  <benjamingoodger> I bet I can design an apparatus to do that, however, without the age of microchips
10:04:22  <DASPRiD> Celestar, ? :x
10:04:26  <benjamingoodger> *aid
10:04:27  <benjamingoodger> hmm
10:04:28  <china> and using that for "eternity" in a space ship without maintainance.
10:04:49  <benjamingoodger> we don't use a seed-by-seed quality control system on earth
10:04:54  <benjamingoodger> is it vital to do so in space?
10:04:58  <china> maybe
10:05:13  <benjamingoodger> hmmmm
10:05:16  <china> depends on what quality a geen based seed may be when used.
10:05:18  <Eddi|zuHause> china: "Die guten ins Töpfchen, die schlechten ins Kröpfchen"
10:05:25  <benjamingoodger> *strokes proto-beard*
10:05:27  <china> Eddi|zuHause: excuse me?
10:05:30  <china> benjamingoodger: :)
10:05:54  <china> benjamingoodger: im building my own here in my house, and so far i have just "pre-invented" the automation process.
10:05:57  <DASPRiD> Celestar, i wonder how good the ping from moon to earth is... still playable?
10:06:06  <Eddi|zuHause> china: it's part of the fairy tale "Aschenputtel" [Cinderella]
10:06:18  <benjamingoodger> DASPRiD: nope :(
10:06:25  <china> Eddi|zuHause: ah, ok.
10:06:30  <Celestar> DASPRiD: well, only counting the signal time it's around 2400ms
10:06:39  <DASPRiD> hm, that sucks for online gaming
10:06:45  <DASPRiD> they have to find a solution for that
10:06:49  <china> Eddi|zuHause: relevance?
10:06:53  <Qball> gives in game lag a new meaning
10:06:57  <Celestar> er ... subspace communication?
10:07:01  <benjamingoodger> DASPRiD: you can increase the speed of light if you like
10:07:12  <Eddi|zuHause> china: it's about sorting the good peas from the bad peas ;)
10:07:13  <DASPRiD> Celestar, how'd be the ping then?
10:07:20  <china> benjamingoodger: the thing is, i know a helluva lot about robotics. though, my knowledge now ends at the chemistry and life processing ..stuff
10:07:20  <Celestar> ask LaForge
10:07:24  <china> that i really need to study.
10:07:28  <china> Eddi|zuHause: ah. :-)
10:07:45  <china> well, thats actually the big issue in automated growth.
10:07:57  <benjamingoodger> china: you are to be congratulated, I wish I knew much about robotics
10:08:03  <china> you -can- make a perfect pea, and the cover the gene and chemistry index
10:08:37  *** mikl [] has joined #openttd
10:08:45  <benjamingoodger> hmmm
10:08:48  <china> though, the definition of the perfect pea -after 10 000 000 geneations of growth- is yet to be seen.
10:08:52  <DASPRiD> benjamingoodger, irc bots are robots as well, so you surely also know a bit about robotics ;)
10:09:19  <china> "the monkey and humanity" is a well knows phrase (in swedish) for this problem.
10:09:24  <benjamingoodger> DASPRiD: actually, I know absolutely nothing about irc bots, beyond what knowledge I have reverse-engineered from using them
10:09:34  <china> and as far as the study goes, the pea and the monkey-human issue is a NP problem.
10:09:37  <DASPRiD> oh, hehe
10:09:50  <china> benjamingoodger: oh, you create eggdrops? :)
10:10:00  <benjamingoodger> *blink*
10:10:07  <DASPRiD> i coded my own irc bot \o/
10:10:07  <benjamingoodger> I have absolutely no idea what you just said
10:10:12  <china> oh, ok
10:10:14  <china> never mind.
10:10:21  <benjamingoodger> it would probably make more sense in swedish
10:10:25  <china> we actually used a megahal code for a speech robot
10:10:37  *** Zorni [] has joined #openttd
10:11:05  * china spends his free time building missiles and solar driven cat toys
10:11:17  <benjamingoodger> yes... so you've said
10:11:17  *** tokai [] has joined #openttd
10:11:18  *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai] by ChanServ
10:11:23  <benjamingoodger> ...
10:11:25  <benjamingoodger> ¬.¬
10:11:27  <china> -_-
10:12:22  <DASPRiD> ^___^
10:12:29  <china> \o
10:12:41  <china> btw, i must ask: what is really the main discussion in this channel
10:12:48  <DASPRiD> world and stuff
10:12:50  <china> regarding openttd; the programming or just the game?
10:13:11  <benjamingoodger> mostly the latter from what I can tell. most of the development seems to happen in the forum
10:13:25  <planetmaker> china: both ;)
10:13:44  <china> oh.
10:14:03  * china simply enjoys trains.
10:14:05  <china> -s
10:14:11  <benjamingoodger> +s
10:14:23  <china> really?
10:14:23  <benjamingoodger> that sentence was grammatically correct...
10:14:26  <china> oh
10:14:40  <china> fantabulous
10:14:52  <benjamingoodger> technically, you were in the third person, because of the usage of the noun rather than "I", despite talking about yourself
10:15:05  <benjamingoodger> stupid english language... *mutters*
10:16:06  <china> stupid autocad electrical
10:17:24  <benjamingoodger> quite.
10:17:24  <china> -550MB disc space - yey!
10:17:33  * Celestar prefers CATIA
10:17:52  *** Zorn [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
10:17:57  <benjamingoodger> that's "disk", when talking about hard disks (but not compact discs), since you seem to be interested in improving your english
10:18:07  <benjamingoodger> and is that negative?
10:18:08  <china> once payed for (!): mechanical+electrical+inventor is great, at least for my needs.
10:18:40  <china> benjamingoodger: yes, negative space. and thank you. one tries.
10:18:54  <china> and i still need to fix the `Ž'^š
10:19:05  <china> but thats a rather irrelevant thing on IRC.
10:19:06  <planetmaker> eh... disc is as valid as disk.
10:19:24  <china> i used "disc" since its a direct translation of the swedish word and meaning.
10:19:34  <benjamingoodger> the convention is "disk" when talking about hard disks, since these are not discs
10:19:47  <china> wait
10:19:48  <benjamingoodger> and "disc" in british english, when talking about disc-shaped objects
10:20:08  <china> isnt that why we used "disc" in the first place?
10:20:22  <planetmaker> interesting.
10:20:28  <china> the swedish word for the HDD is "disk", just because "disk" refers to the disc shaped object.
10:20:32  <planetmaker> didn't know _that_ differentiation.
10:21:00  <china> all though, im not in the position to argument language.
10:21:01  <china> :>
10:21:08  <benjamingoodger> china: that'll be US English then... they have "disk" for disc-shaped objects
10:21:13  <benjamingoodger> *although
10:21:21  <china> and i have to excuse myself, since thats something you people (yes you) take more serious the others on IRC.
10:21:22  <benjamingoodger> (tell me to stop correcting you when it becomes annoying)
10:21:36  <benjamingoodger> excuse me, my cat wants attention
10:21:51  * china gives benjamingoodger one of his homemade cat toys
10:22:15  <benjamingoodger> spotty doesn't seem to like toys
10:22:43  <china>
10:22:47  <china> highly crimical brothers.
10:23:09  <benjamingoodger> he just likes food, sleep and slow-moving rodents, and for some reason, for me to stroke him on the head constantly
10:23:10  <benjamingoodger> aww, sweet
10:23:21  <benjamingoodger>
10:23:29  <china> they are six months by now
10:23:46  <china> epic site.
10:23:53  <benjamingoodger> eh, quite
10:24:23  <benjamingoodger> it's interesting how humans find other species' babies "cute"
10:24:40  <benjamingoodger> chimpanzees, which of course are our nearest relatives, find other species' babies to be a tasty meal
10:25:06  <SpComb> but we do horrible things to our food before eating it
10:25:19  <benjamingoodger> yes, but those are all adults
10:25:22  <china> :o
10:25:24  <benjamingoodger> mostly
10:25:51  <china> time to make some food
10:25:52  <benjamingoodger> and we don't eat species that continue looking like human babies, such as cats, small rodents and most dogs
10:26:02  <petern> "most of the development seems to happen in the forum" < hehe, you have no idea
10:26:06  <china> by the way, english uses "sambo", right?
10:26:14  <benjamingoodger> what?
10:26:14  <davis-> :o
10:26:25  <china> :O
10:26:41  <davis-> :0
10:26:42  <benjamingoodger> you may be introducing me to words in my own language that I don't know
10:26:51  <benjamingoodger> if you are, please stop, as it frightens me :P
10:26:54  <china> haha :D
10:27:07  <petern> racial term? never heard of it
10:27:21  <petern> "Sambo is a racial term for a person with mixed Amerindian and African heritage in the Caribbean, also for a black or South Asian person in the United States and the United Kingdom. It is considered a racial slur in the U.S. and the UK, but not in the Caribbean."
10:27:32  <benjamingoodger> ah...
10:27:41  <benjamingoodger> that explains why I've never heard of it
10:27:47  <benjamingoodger> there are no black people here
10:28:34  <petern> right
10:28:43  <petern> do i bother beating my current car insurance people up
10:28:46  <petern> or do i just switch
10:28:57  <benjamingoodger> hmmm
10:29:08  <benjamingoodger> to what degree will openttd development suffer, if you are incarcerated for assault?
10:29:13  <petern> none
10:29:25  <benjamingoodger> in that case, beat the bastards to death
10:29:36  <petern> however, beating them up would mostly involve trying to convince them to lower their quote
10:29:49  <petern> quite fruitless, i suspect
10:30:00  <benjamingoodger> hmm
10:30:09  <benjamingoodger> how much is the quote? and to insure what? against what?
10:30:26  <petern> car insurance, as i said
10:30:33  <benjamingoodger> ah yes
10:30:40  <petern> they quoted £560
10:30:50  <benjamingoodger> that's better than mine...
10:30:50  <petern> i've got another quote for £290
10:31:11  <petern> at that difference, customer loyalty can be forgotten...
10:31:21  <benjamingoodger> quite
10:31:23  <benjamingoodger> what's the car?
10:31:35  <petern> 1.8 citroen xantia
10:31:47  <petern> not exactly known for being a performance beast
10:31:50  <benjamingoodger> quite
10:31:52  <petern> however
10:31:57  <petern> i did get one quote for £1300...
10:32:01  <benjamingoodger> I have a 1.6 nissan primera
10:32:07  <benjamingoodger> the best quote is for £950
10:32:23  <benjamingoodger> and that's with me as a named driver, with my parents as primary policyholders
10:32:30  <petern> heh
10:32:43  <petern> my first car cost £400 to insure
10:32:43  <benjamingoodger> it's infuriating
10:32:55  <petern> 0.9 fiat uno :D
10:33:01  <benjamingoodger> *shudder*
10:33:12  <petern> it was cheap, that was the point
10:33:16  <benjamingoodger> ah
10:33:27  <benjamingoodger> well, my primera is hardly a speed-machine already
10:33:29  <petern> cheap car with cheap insurance to build up the no claims
10:33:32  <benjamingoodger> in fact, it's severely underpowered
10:33:56  <Celestar>
10:33:57  <davis-> sex
10:34:00  <Celestar> bahahah
10:34:05  <petern> some policies give ncb to named drivers these days
10:34:12  <benjamingoodger> but I have to pay stupid money to insure it just because I'm eighteen... it's maddening
10:34:32  <davis-> lol Celestar
10:34:41  <benjamingoodger> heheh, good one
10:34:47  <petern> the £400 was when i was 18
10:35:04  * benjamingoodger cannot think of the insurance price when he gets his new car next year...
10:35:28  <china> bah
10:35:32  <china> not to be modest
10:35:32  <china> but
10:35:36  <davis-> anyone here plays guitar? //offtopic
10:35:47  <china> im unemployed, but definetly feel confident on the rest of my life
10:35:52  <china> building robots and plying jazz.
10:35:55  <china> +a
10:35:57  <benjamingoodger> :)
10:36:04  * china np: michael bublé - feeling good
10:36:12  *** china is now known as appe
10:36:27  <Eddi|zuHause> davis-: Brianetta does
10:36:37  <davis-> alright thanks
10:36:40  <petern> i played a guitar once
10:36:41  <Rubidium> you want to say that the rest of the "talking" wasn't off topic?
10:36:46  <petern> once or twice
10:36:52  <Eddi|zuHause> bah... Belugas i meant
10:37:15  <benjamingoodger> I'm unemployed, but I'm heading for a master's degree in business administration, and am also starting a publishing company and a charitable organisation producing creative-commons literature, and am also writing a novel. and I'm extremely insecure about the rest of my life, leading to huge depression
10:37:27  <benjamingoodger> modesty pah!
10:37:29  <davis-> tmi
10:37:38  <appe> ah
10:37:40  <appe> itl work out
10:37:46  <appe> just keep yourself busy
10:38:01  <benjamingoodger> how could I possibly be any more busy?
10:38:02  <benjamingoodger> :P
10:38:09  <petern> ah, about to waste several years of your life studying
10:38:23  <benjamingoodger> yes
10:38:25  <benjamingoodger> yes I am
10:38:27  <appe> im trying to do as much as i can of my time, building, repairing instruments and robots (im collecting older claviatures), starting my own business, making music, entertaining my girl
10:38:35  <appe> study is never a waste
10:38:38  <appe> -never-
10:38:44  <benjamingoodger> it is when you're doing an MBA
10:38:46  <appe> as long as you want to, at least.
10:38:49  <appe> mba?
10:38:56  <benjamingoodger> master's in business administration
10:39:02  <davis-> iam in year 12 out of 13 and ive less lessons than in year 5
10:39:06  <davis-> hail the education system
10:39:20  <benjamingoodger> davis-: further education woop
10:39:23  <appe> o' lord.
10:39:30  <benjamingoodger> the only point of doing an MBA is to put the letters "MBA" on your CV
10:39:38  <davis-> :P
10:39:38  <Eddi|zuHause> 13 years of school... you poor child
10:39:46  <benjamingoodger> ¬.¬
10:39:51  <davis-> haha "abitur" :P
10:39:56  <benjamingoodger> I'm in my fourteenth
10:40:11  <petern> business administration sounds like a jumped name for receptionist, to me :p
10:40:17  <Eddi|zuHause> well... we were intelligent enough to do it in 12 ;)
10:40:19  <benjamingoodger> nope
10:40:30  <davis-> times change Eddi
10:40:31  <benjamingoodger> Eddi|zuHause: yes, but your country has a competent education system
10:40:37  <davis-> iam not the one to blame :P
10:40:48  <benjamingoodger> the British education system exists solely to prepare people for university
10:41:02  <benjamingoodger> which, in turn, exists solely to make people more employable
10:41:10  <benjamingoodger> we learn nothing of any use, it's all CV-mongering
10:41:33  <Eddi|zuHause> how do you think that is different in germany?
10:41:36  * appe does live on the university, but doesnt study
10:41:40  <appe> im not yet 22, so.
10:41:49  <davis-> lol
10:41:53  <benjamingoodger> Eddi|zuHause: I don't know, I just presumed it couldn't possibly be worse than GB
10:42:06  <davis-> german education system is kind of a mess
10:42:08  <benjamingoodger> the real reason I'm going to university is to try and overcome my various social problems, and also so I can move to kent
10:42:43  <davis-> :]
10:43:19  <petern> grrrrrrrrrrr
10:43:33  <benjamingoodger> I'd go to sweden to university, but I fear living in a country whose language I don't speak
10:43:39  <appe> you know what? there is a thing thats so good about robotics and jazz
10:43:44  <appe> and it's espresso.
10:43:49  <davis-> petern took bull hormone's
10:43:54  <appe> it's a must for both parts. :)
10:43:56  <davis-> :3
10:44:20  <petern> davi's?
10:44:23  <benjamingoodger> I am aware that practically all swedes speak excellent english, but I would be extremely offended if I was a swede who had to deal with presumptuous englishmen all the time
10:44:30  <davis-> nvm :]
10:44:50  <appe> benjamingoodger: im swedish, and my english is above average. still i have trouble with the spelling and stuff.
10:45:07  <appe> or well, my language is good, i even do dialect. though the spelling is ..something else.
10:45:07  *** bleepy [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
10:45:10  <appe> :-<
10:45:25  <appe> but yes, i like the fact that english is a big thing here
10:45:36  <appe> and practically nobody feels offended by "not using swedish" in everything
10:45:41  <appe> like the germans seem to.
10:45:46  <benjamingoodger> yeah
10:45:52  * appe notes "seem to" to not offend anyone.
10:46:25  <benjamingoodger> but if I went over there with no knowledge of the language, and just presumed you'd all speak english for me, you'd be at least a little offended?
10:46:26  <Rubidium> mai ingrish iz alzo abov wold avridge ;)
10:46:30  <Eddi|zuHause> germans get especially offended when people use "fancy" english words when there would be perfectly fine german words for the object
10:46:47  <appe> Rubidium: ;)
10:46:52  <benjamingoodger> :)
10:46:54  <petern> avrij
10:47:00  <benjamingoodger> better
10:47:10  <appe> im not blaming them, it's just that our language aint that big of a deal for us, i guess
10:47:20  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: considering that at most 1/6th of the world population even learned english ;)
10:47:26  <benjamingoodger> appe: I refer you to my above statement, which you may have missed
10:47:47  <appe> benjamingoodger: no, not at all
10:48:11  <appe> as far as i know, most swedes speak good english, and knows about the fact that most other people don't know swedish.
10:48:14  <appe> any, at all.
10:48:31  <benjamingoodger> yes, but surely if I came over there to live
10:48:32  <benjamingoodger> and made no effort to integrate?
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10:48:50  <Eddi|zuHause> german is the most spoken mother language in europe ;)
10:49:00  <appe> benjamingoodger: as an englishman, no problem.
10:49:08  <Rubidium> then I'm not in the "most other people" group ;)
10:49:10  <benjamingoodger> hmmm
10:49:11  <Eddi|zuHause> (i'd say about twice as english)
10:49:29  <appe> benjamingoodger: as said, english is so well integrated. the people you would have trouble with is the older generation, if so.
10:49:45  <petern> benjamingoodger, did you happen to see the newsnight special just after obama was elected?
10:49:46  <benjamingoodger> I'm not saying it would cause problems with communication
10:50:14  <appe> benjamingoodger: me neither. i dont think people would feel offended by you talking the second most used language
10:50:17  <benjamingoodger> petern: no, unfortunately I could only stay up watching the live footage on bbc 1 until he won california, and then collapsed
10:50:24  <benjamingoodger> hmm
10:50:31  <appe> swedes would be more offended by other swedes not talking any english at all.
10:50:32  <petern> benjamingoodger, it was the next day, mid-evening...
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10:50:37  <benjamingoodger> ah
10:50:39  <Rubidium> appe: that really depends on the situation
10:50:40  <benjamingoodger> no, didn't see that
10:51:00  <Eddi|zuHause> winning california? isn't that a) clear from the start, and b) when the really interesting part is already over=
10:51:06  <benjamingoodger> precisely
10:51:07  <petern>
10:51:10  <petern> watch and cringe...
10:51:14  <benjamingoodger> that's why I went to bed after confirming it for myself
10:51:16  <Rubidium> if the staff of a Dutch supermarket start talking in German to me then that can be experienced as offending
10:51:19  <benjamingoodger> cheers petern
10:52:22  <Eddi|zuHause> are there so many germans shopping in the netherlands that this really happens?
10:52:46  <davis-> for frikandeln
10:53:42  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: yes, especially at the coast in the vacation
10:53:48  <Eddi|zuHause> petern: i don't understand a word he's saying
10:53:51  <benjamingoodger> appe: when english people move to spain, for the cheap alcohol and the sunshine, they typically move to a town populated entirely by english people, do not bother learning spanish, and continue watching British television that they import via satellite
10:54:07  <benjamingoodger> this is considered to be distasteful
10:54:13  <Rubidium> though at the border with Germany the Germans come by the thousands getting coffee ;)
10:54:32  <Eddi|zuHause> err... yes, of course :p
10:55:15  <benjamingoodger> similarly, when people from various places in asia move to great britain, there is a perception that they do not bother to learn english, interface only with existing asians, etc
10:55:18  <Eddi|zuHause> and behind the border the police is collecting the coffee again ;)
10:55:20  <benjamingoodger> and this is also considered problematic
10:56:09  <benjamingoodger> so I would consider myself to be offending sweden if I moved to sweden with no knowledge of the language and little of the culture and way of life, and just carried on as I had done in england
10:56:30  <Rubidium> hmm... Eddi's assuming the wrong coffee I guess ;)
10:56:59  <petern> benjamingoodger, yeah, but it's racist to complain about our immigrants..
10:58:03  <Rubidium> anyhow, in the supermarket here about half of the coffee is coffee with german labels on it
10:58:18  <Rubidium> but I don't really care about that because I don't drink it anyways
10:58:21  <benjamingoodger> hence the use of the _extremely_ non-committal "perception"
10:58:22  <benjamingoodger> since I haven't seen anyone with non-white skin for months, except for the Nepalese guy in my accounting class who speaks excellent english, I can't vouch
10:58:57  <petern> where i live there's a "high" population of asian people
10:59:56  <Eddi|zuHause> the number of chinese students increased dramatically here
11:00:15  <petern> heh, notable residents... germaine lindsay, one of the london suicide bombers
11:00:24  <Eddi|zuHause> ha ha :p
11:00:35  <ln> it's alright to live in sweden and not to integrate with the rest of the society, not to follow their rules.
11:00:54  <benjamingoodger> oh, I forgot the endless chinese students, muttering to themselves, never speaking to anyone but each other
11:01:08  <benjamingoodger> but it's racist to complain about them.
11:01:41  <Rubidium> of the psychology students at my university over half is German
11:02:17  <Eddi|zuHause> that's not a wonder, psychology was invented by germans ;)
11:02:27  <benjamingoodger> well, I suppose german psychologists have to learn somewhere
11:03:13  <DASPRiD> yeah we germans are nice people :XY
11:03:34  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: and because of that they study it abroad?
11:04:01  <benjamingoodger> nah, that's just residual cruelty
11:05:25  <Brianetta> Last time I was in Germany, I was impressed by the willingness of the average German to at least try to meet me half way when I ran out of German.
11:05:38  <benjamingoodger> everyone on earth does that
11:06:14  <Brianetta> The French weren't like that at all...  they loved to see the Englishman squirm.
11:06:18  <benjamingoodger> we can communicate a frankly shocking about of data without the use of comprehensible words
11:06:25  <benjamingoodger> oh, yes, the french...
11:06:35  <ln> in Malmö (a swedish city) there are certain areas where ambulances refuse to go without being accompanied by police.
11:06:52  <Brianetta> Malmö isn't a city.  It's a piece of Ikea furniture.  Duh.
11:06:59  <benjamingoodger> :D
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11:07:19  <ln> right
11:07:29  <Brianetta> Ikea.  It's Swedish for Ikea.
11:07:35  <Gekz> Brianetta: lol.
11:07:45  <benjamingoodger> eh?
11:07:48  <Gekz> it seems if you live in Scandinavia, you live in Malmoe
11:07:58  <Gekz> I only ever hear of this place.
11:08:20  <Brianetta> Surely you've heard of Hell?
11:08:25  <benjamingoodger> if you immigrate to scandinavia from somewhere really backward, rather, you go to malmo
11:08:46  <Brianetta>,_Norway
11:08:56  <Gekz> i've heard of Hell.
11:09:02  <Gekz> I'm going to learn Swedish one day
11:09:08  <Gekz> then go there for a while and ask myself
11:09:11  <benjamingoodger> heh
11:09:14  <Gekz> wtf possessed me to go to Sweden
11:09:22  <Gekz> then go to France and ask the same question
11:09:23  <Gekz> then go home
11:09:29  <Brianetta> Sweden is full of extremely fit females.
11:09:33  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd think swedish should be really easy if you know english and german
11:10:09  <Gekz> I'm studying German
11:10:14  <Gekz> and Swedish looks far easier than German
11:10:45  <Aali> actually, swedish is supposedly quite hard to learn
11:10:55  <benjamingoodger> can't be as hard as finnish..
11:11:06  <Aali> well, finnish isn't a language
11:11:06  <petern> borkborkbork
11:11:09  <Aali> its just gibberish
11:11:17  <benjamingoodger> ¬.¬
11:11:40  <Brianetta> Aali: Levan Polka by Loituma tell you that?
11:11:56  <Brianetta> The bit that was used for th eleek twirling meme was indeed gibberish
11:12:36  <Gekz> haha Finnish
11:12:46  <Gekz> piraattipuolue
11:12:50  <Gekz> Pirate Party.
11:12:58  <benjamingoodger> piratbyran!
11:13:05  <Aali> seriously though, finnish people are hilarious when they're speaking in english
11:13:07  <benjamingoodger> it's a very well designed language, however
11:13:12  <Aali> because it still sounds like finnish
11:13:16  <Gekz> languages arent designed
11:13:17  <Gekz> lol
11:13:30  <benjamingoodger> ¬.¬
11:13:43  <benjamingoodger> evolution has made it appear well-designed then
11:13:46  <Gekz> French music is terrible people.
11:13:52  <benjamingoodger> btw, esperanto and a few others were designed
11:13:53  <Gekz> except like, one band
11:14:00  <Gekz> benjamingoodger: constructed.
11:14:12  <Gekz> esperanto, interlingua, volupuk, etc are conlangs
11:14:17  <Gekz> the rest are just evolutions
11:14:23  <benjamingoodger> you can't construct something before you design it
11:14:25  <Gekz> mainly from Proto-indo-european
11:14:28  <Brianetta> The myth of Intelligent Language
11:14:40  <benjamingoodger> :)
11:14:47  <Gekz> benjamingoodger: you cant design without a plan
11:14:54  <benjamingoodger> "in the beginning there was the ZAMENHOF"
11:15:30  <benjamingoodger> "and the ZAMENHOF said, Let there be simplified conjugation. And it was so, and the ZAMENHOF saw that it was good. And that was the first day."
11:15:45  <benjamingoodger> I could go on. pray I don't
11:18:26  <benjamingoodger> or rather, "komence estis la ZAMENHOF, kaj li diris, "estu konjugaciado simpla. kaj tio okuzis, kaj li vidis ke gxi estis bona; kaj tio estis la unua tago" etc.
11:18:54  <benjamingoodger> *okazis
11:19:00  <ln> 13:13 < Aali> because it still sounds like finnish   <-- yeah, except for the ones who actually speak good english
11:20:18  <benjamingoodger> that happens with all strong accents, anyway
11:21:13  <ln> Aali: on the other hand, swedes are notorious for thinking they speak good english, while they actually mix english and swedish grammar and words here and there, due to the similarities.
11:21:51  <benjamingoodger> meh
11:21:59  <benjamingoodger> that's forgiveable so long as we can understand each other
11:22:36  <benjamingoodger> I can understand appe despite his constant errors. it's not problematic
11:24:38  <Aali> ln: thank you for taking it so personal and serious
11:25:04  <Aali> can i go back to poking fun at finnish people that dont speak good english now?
11:25:21  <benjamingoodger> don't mind ln, he's having a little tantrum
11:26:42  <Aali> yeah, i noticed he's a little displeased with the world around him
11:28:43  <Rubidium> Aali: /ignore has been developed to battle such instances
11:28:56  <appe> :o
11:29:01  <petern> so has /kb :D
11:29:12  <appe> :(
11:29:40  <ln> Aali: i was merely stating two facts, i took nothing personally.
11:30:19  <Aali> i'm sure you didn't
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11:31:53  <ln> my apologies.
11:33:39  <Celestar> 1,009,697,871 /tftpboot/32bit/var/log/xinetd.log
11:33:40  <Celestar> :o
11:34:00  <Rubidium> did it crash the server yet?
11:34:08  <Celestar> nope
11:34:42  <roboboy> gnight
11:36:03  <Rubidium> Celestar: then what's the point ;)
11:36:21  <Rubidium> a quite big logfile... just logrotate it!
11:36:36  <Eddi|zuHause> Celestar: come again when you have another triplet in that number ;)
11:37:44  <davis-> thatnfra project isnt supported by openttd , is it? grf compatibility wise
11:37:48  <davis-> that infra*
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11:38:23  <Rubidium> depends on what it does and doesn't use of the GRF specs
11:38:54  <davis-> ah..
11:39:27  <Eddi|zuHause> a recent thread in the forum suggested that the main blocker to move the whole project to openttd was the lack of custom bridgeheads
11:39:58  <Eddi|zuHause> which has nothing to do with grf support
11:40:31  <davis-> well i just seen some pretty impressing screenshots , so i wondered
11:42:18  <appe> does openttd have mods?
11:42:27  * appe want to build trains with the speed of light
11:42:40  <davis-> lol
11:42:43  <SpComb> then you wouldn't even be able to see them
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11:43:09  <Ammler> are the infra screen 100% from ingame?
11:43:36  <benjamingoodger> where are these to be found?
11:43:36  <Ammler> like the shore edges.
11:43:43  <Rubidium> appe: then make teleporters as shown by the openttdcoop guys
11:44:08  <davis-> 12:43… Ammler: are the infra screen 100% from ingame?
11:44:14  <davis-> i dont know realy ..
11:46:01  <ln> hello
11:46:21  <davis-> hi
11:46:22  <Ammler> benjamingoodger: SAC screens?
11:46:40  <benjamingoodger> cheers
11:46:59  <benjamingoodger> ...that's not showing any forums
11:47:08  <benjamingoodger> do you have to log in to read it
11:47:08  <appe> Rubidium: well, light speed may be too much, i want them to be "seen", but still really awesomeness fast.
11:47:08  <Eddi|zuHause> the screenshots are said to be from a real game, no photoshopping
11:47:09  <benjamingoodger> ?
11:47:40  <Eddi|zuHause> appe: afaik 65535 is the max speed
11:47:54  <appe> thats more then enough
11:48:10  <davis-> 12:47… benjamingoodger: ...that's not showing any forums
11:48:10  <Eddi|zuHause> and in that case, it's a matter of 3 lines in a grf
11:48:11  <davis-> weird
11:48:17  <davis-> yesterday i could read it without an account
11:48:22  <appe> how does one get mods into a singleplayer game? any extra software thats used, or is it a "grf" (or what ever you now call it)
11:48:26  <appe> :-)
11:49:13  <davis-> anyhow benjamingoodger
11:49:14  <davis->
11:49:18  <davis-> screenshots aswell
11:49:29  <benjamingoodger> thank you
11:49:30  <appe> holy crap cat poo smells like ..poo.
11:49:51  <davis-> chakaladeng
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11:51:55  <yorick> <-- first impressions?
11:52:31  <appe> Rubidium: are there mods for it?
11:52:40  <appe> not the speed itself, but in general
11:53:38  <Ammler> davis-: ttartist has nicer ones :-)
11:53:54  <davis-> well , he made the forum acessable for registrated users only
11:54:02  <davis-> and iam to lazy to create some account now
11:54:18  <Ammler> <-- does that work?
11:54:28  <davis-> nope
11:54:37  <Ammler> it is worth to register :P
11:54:37  <davis-> leads me to the portal.php
11:54:46  <davis-> he must have changed it today ::p
11:54:53  <davis-> cause yesterday i still could read it all
11:55:19  <benjamingoodger> pointless..
11:55:22  <petern> yorick, why add a new water class?
11:55:37  <Celestar> man
11:55:45  <Celestar> IBM's dsm sucks
11:55:51  <yorick> petern, to retain backward compatibility?
11:56:36  <appe> o
11:56:37  <appe> noo!
11:56:38  <appe> crap
11:56:54  <appe> one of the cats ate the solar panel from one of the beanbots
11:57:02  <appe> i dont think thats rather healthy
11:57:13  <benjamingoodger> !.!
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11:57:54  <davis-> :|
11:58:19  <Sacro> >:3
11:58:58  <davis-> the bird is the word
11:59:21  <appe> :<
11:59:21  <petern> wogan played some country version of 'word up' this morning
11:59:27  <petern> that was quite scary
11:59:47  <Eddi|zuHause> <Ammler> <-- does that work? <- it says i'm logged in [impressive, that must have been years ago], but still redirects me to portal.php
11:59:47  <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: " with some graphics illusion. It's still work in progress though... " <-- implies to me, it is not a GRF :-)
12:00:14  <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: no, it's a grf, but things like underground stations are graphical illusions
12:00:19  <petern> Ammler, you're wrong
12:00:31  <petern> ttd was built with illusions
12:00:44  <petern> the illusion that vehicles fit under bridges and tunnels
12:00:52  <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: you might need to login, after that, it should work.
12:00:58  <davis-> everybody knows that the bird is the word
12:05:05  <benjamingoodger> right, time for college
12:05:10  <benjamingoodger> good afternoon, ln
12:05:14  <benjamingoodger> :D
12:05:36  <petern> when college starts at 9 and finishes at 5, every day, i might respect students :p
12:05:40  <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: well, i can view the threads and the pictures in the threads, but this direct link doesn't work
12:06:06  <Ammler> well, it is the 2. screen
12:06:11  <Ammler> of the postcard thread.
12:06:24  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, i know these
12:06:25  <benjamingoodger> 1.15 start woot
12:06:32  <Ammler> I am wondering about the rounded edge.
12:07:04  <Eddi|zuHause> that's just a normal tile with a foundation
12:07:13  <ln> 'night
12:07:15  <Eddi|zuHause> it's one of the optical illusions
12:09:52  <Ammler> for those without login at ttartits:
12:10:27  <petern> not really an 'illusion'
12:10:35  <petern> it's just appropriately placed pixels
12:10:41  <Sacro> fuck me that's beauitful
12:10:44  <Sacro> petern: porn?
12:10:46  <Ammler> :-)
12:10:58  <petern> Sacro, same applies...
12:11:46  <Qball> nice screenshot
12:12:38  <Ammler> maybe she used different new shores grfs and switch them for screens.
12:12:59  <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: it's not a shore, it's a house on a foundation
12:13:48  <petern> it's a 2x2 house
12:14:38  <petern> incidentally the curve isn't quite right for the 'isometric' view
12:14:49  <petern> especially the one on the left
12:17:10  <Eddi|zuHause> so... i'm watching Episode II now
12:19:08  <yorick> Yexo, I got a working patch :)
12:26:20  <appe> Eddi|zuHause: i think i have solved the pea problem.
12:26:21  <appe> :D
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12:35:58  <Yexo> yorick: nice, can we test it?
12:36:05  <yorick> look at tt-forums :)
12:36:15  <Yexo> ok ;)
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12:40:17  <Yexo> yorick: openttd: /home/thijs/openttd/trunk/src/water_map.h:50: WaterClass GetWaterClass(TileIndex): Assertion `IsTileType(t, MP_WATER) || IsTileType(t, MP_STATION) || IsTileType(t, MP_INDUSTRY)' failed.
12:40:34  <yorick> meh
12:40:38  <yorick> when did that happen?
12:40:51  <Yexo> when the river was flooding
12:41:05  <Yexo> I generated a random scenario, placed one source tile, and pressed fast forward
12:42:36  <Yexo> it looks like it happens as soon as the rivers reaches sea
12:43:33  <yorick> meh, it does not happen here
12:44:02  <appe> ><
12:44:30  <yorick> yexo, savegame?
12:45:07  <Ammler> yorick: same here
12:45:26  <Ammler> the river reaches the sea, but does still flood
12:46:18  <yorick> savegame?
12:48:27  <Ammler> terraforms quite a lot :-)
12:49:07  <yorick> it should only terraform if it gets trapped
12:49:09  <Ammler> yorick: it assert everytime.
12:49:20  <yorick> Ammler, do you have a scenario on which it does?
12:49:21  <Yexo> not everytime here, but often
12:49:31  <Yexo> yorick: I attached a scenario to your thread
12:49:35  <yorick> ok
12:49:47  <Ammler> I start a scenario and place one piece river on top of a mountain.
12:50:13  <Ammler> then fastforward until it reaches sea, then it will assert.
12:50:35  <Ammler> like if to rivers crash together
12:50:42  <Ammler> !s/to/two/
12:51:13  <yorick> aha
12:51:13  <appe>
12:51:14  <Ammler> yes, I can crash it without sea :-)
12:51:16  <appe> not so good.
12:51:26  <yorick> I was hunting that bug down
12:53:34  <yorick> it fails to reach a coast tile
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12:57:04  <yorick> ammler, how can you crash it without sea?
12:57:53  <Ammler> I guess, it is more something when it gets stocked
12:59:51  <yorick> Yexo's problem occurs when it has a coasttile in sight, but can also flood other tiles
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13:00:53  <Ammler> lol
13:01:08  <Ammler> now it terraformed a whole sea
13:01:18  <Ammler> and flooded it
13:01:54  <yorick> maybe I should remove the coast-magnet
13:02:59  <Celestar> stupid externals HDDs. Why do they all ship with fat32
13:03:27  <Ammler> yorick:
13:03:49  <Tefad> Celestar: because fat32 is inefficient for large drives containing small files
13:04:13  <Ammler> Celestar: if you find a better FS for stupid usb HDs, tell me.
13:04:19  <Ammler> (using xfs now)
13:04:22  <Tefad> ntfs
13:04:28  <Qball> ext3
13:04:30  <Qball> </hides>
13:04:36  <petern> Celestar, because it works on everything
13:04:37  <Ammler> ext3 isn't
13:04:46  <Qball> ext3 always worked for me
13:04:48  <Qball> (tm)
13:05:02  <Ammler> which options do you use
13:05:09  <Antdovu> Qball: unexpected end tag
13:05:09  <Qball> for usb disk depends
13:05:24  <Qball> if it is plugged in/out alot I mount it sync and high commit rate
13:05:35  <Qball> if it is always in..  not synced mount and lower commit rate
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13:11:30  <Celestar> Ammler: xfs (=
13:11:49  <Ammler> hmm, another experiment :P
13:12:23  <DASPRiD> ext3 works
13:13:15  <DASPRiD> welll they usually choose fat32 because it's readable and mostly writable on any system ;)
13:13:16  <Ammler> I guess, it depense a lot of the disk itself,
13:13:35  <Tefad> ntfs is readable and mostely writable on any system.
13:13:45  <Tefad> -e.
13:14:00  <Ammler> some "cheap" disk becomes too hot
13:14:00  * Brianetta uses TrueCrypt, often with Ext3 inside
13:14:13  <DASPRiD> Tefad, linux kernels older than a year cant
13:14:17  <DASPRiD> (write)
13:14:18  <Tefad> sure they can
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13:14:25  <Tefad> ntfs-3g works on 2.4 kernels even
13:14:39  <DASPRiD> means special kernel module, no thanks
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13:14:45  <DASPRiD> it should work out-of-the-box
13:14:46  <Tefad> it means using fuse
13:14:51  <Tefad> which is out of the box in many distros
13:15:20  <DASPRiD> fat32 is simply sadly the way to go, plug it into any computer ant it works
13:15:25  <Tefad> if your OS is that dated, why are you trying to use such large drives with it
13:15:42  <Tefad> ntfs is replacing fat32 in that regard thanks to the efforts behind ntfs-3g
13:15:55  <yorick> hm, how do I test for coast tiles with some water on?
13:16:10  <Brianetta> Tefad: Lowest common denominator.  FAT works on OS X, Linux, Windows and even Morph OS.
13:16:11  <DASPRiD> Tefad, well uhm, i dont really care about windoze partition types that much
13:16:40  <Brianetta> If you know enough to care, you can put another filesystem on in around three seconds.
13:17:16  <Ammler> you need something which can be almost safely unpluged wihout unmount
13:17:17  <Brianetta> For the average user who wants to cart around their MP3s, photos, Word documents and the odd ISO image FAT is just fine.
13:17:33  <Tefad> perhaps if you're using morphOS you should stick to what works with morphOS..
13:17:59  <Brianetta> You're missing the point.  None fo the hard drive manufacturers are forcing you to use FAT.
13:18:08  <Ammler> and ext3 with sync didn't work properly here.
13:18:16  <Brianetta> They're installing it to make it useful to the majority, who don't care what a filesystem is.
13:19:54  <Ammler> those user, who knows what FAT is, can reformat to something better quite fast and easy, indeed.
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13:21:14  <Ammler> will there ever be a "better" FAT?
13:21:23  <Ammler> filesize > 4 GB
13:21:27  <Tefad> most likely not
13:21:31  <Ammler> or was it 2?
13:21:37  <Tefad> it was 2 or 4 depending on the driver.
13:21:43  <Tefad> the filesystem itself supports 4GB
13:21:55  <Ammler> VFAT is 4
13:24:08  <Tefad> microsoft was the main proporter of the FAT system, they shifted efforts into NTFS
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13:25:11  <Tefad> as microsoft filesystems seems to be the standard, it is only logical to look into NTFS as a common one.. unless of course microsoft OS becomes a minority and something replaces it.
13:31:43  <appe> is fat ever usefull?
13:32:26  <Celestar> appe: yes. floppies.
13:32:46  <appe> oh.
13:32:47  <Celestar> that's what it has been made for. that's what it is good for
13:32:53  <appe> oh, ok.
13:33:27  <appe> i know a thing or two about computers, or at least the hardware. but a funny thing about me is that im always very narrowed
13:33:44  <appe> for instance, my server is soon to be six years old, and i still cant say what filesystem it uses.
13:34:06  <appe> and sometimes i have to think twice before i remember what os i use on it. :D
13:34:11  <Antdovu> depending on what the purpose of the server is, that might not even matter
13:34:36  <Celestar> all my comps run the same OS :)
13:34:47  <appe> well, it weird. i can build a press stacker machine ts900 from scratch (two cubic meters of electronics), but i cant remember where i put my favourite shirt.
13:34:53  <appe> selective memory at its best.
13:36:17  <appe> or for instance, this morning i forgot where i parked my car, but i still remember the lyrics from a song ive only heard two times in the last eight years.
13:36:23  <appe> the human brain is really something.
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13:42:25  <Eddi|zuHause> the difference is that you park your car mostly by reflex, and reflexes are impossible for the brain to remember
13:43:11  <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: many don't drive their car "by reflex"
13:43:49  <Eddi|zuHause> you'd be amazed how large the part of reflexes is when driving
13:43:56  <Celestar> when I drive, yes (=
13:44:16  <Celestar> 99.x %
13:44:35  <Celestar> usually I don't even conciously "process" traffic lights
13:44:49  <Eddi|zuHause> it's the main reason for the "Schrecksekunde", which is the time the brain needs to activate from the reflex/subconcious state
13:45:02  <Celestar> when you ask me, one second after passing it, whether it was red or green, I normally have no idea
13:45:25  <Eddi|zuHause> exactly
13:45:33  <Celestar> I remember yellow though
13:45:40  <Celestar> especially the darker shades of it :P
13:45:43  <appe> <@Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: many don't drive their car "by reflex"
13:45:47  <appe> i would rather say the opposite.
13:45:48  <Gekz> you remember it because you consciously speed through it
13:45:48  <Gekz> lol
13:45:55  <Celestar> Gekz: er .. yes
13:45:58  <appe> it's like holding your balance while using a bike.
13:46:30  <Celestar> appe: you don't drive with bad drivers often
13:46:41  <appe> wait what. :D
13:46:47  <Celestar> appe: they use 90% of their processing power to actually operate the car
13:46:47  <appe> aha
13:46:52  <Celestar> it's scary
13:46:54  <appe> i took "bad drivers" in a different perspective.
13:46:54  <appe> :D
13:47:06  <Antdovu> it is pretty bad in the UK, most of them drive on the wrong side of the road
13:47:06  <appe> Celestar: i guess that makes the bad driver.
13:47:37  <Celestar> appe: yes, because they have hardly any resources left to monitor traffic
13:47:39  <Antdovu> and then they get mad when I use the right side
13:48:06  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, teach them! :p
13:48:13  <appe> :>
13:49:15  <Gekz> Antdovu: that's pretty arrogant
13:49:21  <Gekz> there is no "wrong" side of the road
13:49:25  <Gekz> there is simply left or right
13:49:35  <Gekz> all because a country drives on the left doesnt make them wrong.
13:49:44  <Celestar> there is a "wrong" side: Thats the one I'm not on ;)
13:49:46  <Eddi|zuHause> the reflex thing gets kinda annoying when you want to go somewhere you don't normally go, and take all the wrong ways at the crossings
13:49:56  <appe> Eddi|zuHause: for for once, speeding.
13:50:04  <Gekz> it's quite a mindfucking experience to drive on the right for the first time
13:50:09  <Gekz> when youve driven on the left your entire life
13:50:13  <Eddi|zuHause> and 2 seconds after turning, you thing "wait, i wanted to go the other way
13:50:51  <Eddi|zuHause> Gekz: well, the opposite of "right" is "wrong", clearly.
13:51:11  <appe> haha
13:51:29  <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: I once remember driving to the airport (60 km from home) and upon arriving on the curbside, I realized that I actually didn't want to go there :P
13:51:39  <Celestar> I even had passengers with me :P
13:51:42  <Gekz> Celestar: lolwhat
13:51:53  <Eddi|zuHause> ha ha ;)
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13:52:04  <appe> Celestar: o_0
13:52:24  <appe> holy canoli
13:52:26  <Eddi|zuHause> i actually had an accident this way... while on the crossing i switched the directions i wanted to go...
13:52:28  <appe> my new dish washer is way exact
13:52:39  <appe> it made a full program on 60 minutes, on the second!
13:52:43  <appe> awesome.
13:52:44  <Eddi|zuHause> and didn't yield correctly
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14:01:24  <yorick> Ammler, yexo, I fixed it up a bit
14:08:28  <Yexo> yorick: I still got an assert
14:08:35  <yorick> :o
14:08:39  <Yexo> it happened when one river terraformed another river away
14:09:07  <ln> goodbye
14:09:30  <Yexo> and the rivers often 'close themself in' and never reach sea
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14:16:19  <Eddi|zuHause> my suggestion at that point was to form a lake, and when the lake level rises, you terraform up, until you either hit a chance of becoming a sink, or you find a new exit
14:17:46  <Eddi|zuHause> "sink" begin a chance that the new river tile is not flooding anymore
14:17:58  <appe> well
14:18:00  <appe> time to leave.
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14:47:45  <CIA-5> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14594 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#2412]: trains could get their their last visited station reset when still (un)loading causing an invalid state.
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14:54:21  <fjb> Hello
14:58:46  <gynter> no
15:07:37  <Antdovu> I disagree
15:13:32  <yorick> stupid thing, don't terraform when you're a downwards slope, thereby flattening yourself and asserting!
15:14:14  <Sacro> haha
15:18:15  <Antdovu> it almost sound like you are developing a new disaster...
15:18:25  <Qball> esp the aseert
15:22:29  <yorick> Antdovu, I think I am...
15:23:00  <yorick> rivers you can divert to flatten som towns or break some railway
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15:29:21  <Celestar> my RAID array spits out a "WARNING" if you remove a drive, but a "SERIOUS" if you log in via the http interface
15:30:13  <Rubidium> then you're using a RAID6 array and changing settings of the array is seen as hacking ;)
15:30:26  <Celestar> your assumption is correct (=
15:30:27  <Rubidium> or is it a RAID0 array ;)
15:30:38  <Celestar> this assumption is not correct :P
15:31:35  <Rubidium> *or* SERIOUS means someone logged in with the right credentials the first time so it's someone that's likely a serious admin
15:32:17  <Rubidium> whereas multiple failed attempts makes the admin stressed and then it warns
15:32:30  <Celestar> uh huh :P
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15:33:49  <yorick> *or* it correctly identifies you as a stupid person who should not try to change the settings
15:34:47  * Celestar pokes yorick with a blunt spoon
15:34:55  * yorick gets a trout
15:36:15  * planetmaker hands Celestar Miraculix' special draught.
15:36:49  <Celestar> heh.
15:37:01  <Celestar> my server has 65536 files in the / file system :P
15:37:26  <Qball> Celestar: that is not good
15:37:34  <Qball> I had that in my tmp once, thx to webcvs
15:38:49  <Celestar> Qball: whole file system, not that one dir
15:38:57  <Qball> owh
15:39:10  <Qball> I had that in one dir.. made the quiet deadish for most things
15:39:15  <Qball> if it cannot create files in /tmp
15:39:57  <yorick> Ammler, Yexo, asserts have been fixed :)
15:41:13  <Antdovu> yorick: #define NDEBUG
15:41:24  <Antdovu> ;)
15:41:27  <yorick> ?
15:41:37  <Antdovu> fixes all asserts
15:41:53  <yorick> not the crashing
15:42:05  <yorick> asserts are the more nice way of crashing
15:42:27  <Antdovu> I know ;)
15:42:45  <Celestar> an assert is not a crash
15:42:55  <Celestar> it's a commanded program termination
15:43:10  <Antdovu> depends on the definition of a crash
15:43:44  <Celestar> a "crash" is usually a SIGSEGV
15:43:52  <Rubidium> Celestar: using that logic some stack overflows aren't crashes either
15:44:01  <Celestar> Rubidium: not all (=
15:44:35  <Yexo> yorick: it still asserts
15:44:39  <yorick> what
15:44:58  <yorick> how did you manage to assert it this time?
15:45:18  <Antdovu> assert(0);
15:45:26  <Yexo> just creating a mountanious, very rough landscape and placing a single river
15:46:45  <yorick> I like my asserts more byte-size
15:47:28  <planetmaker> he, rivers are a bitch :P
15:47:52  * Rubidium wonders when OpenGFX becomes really usable; cause now the old mapgen fails horribly :(
15:47:58  <Qball> sudo find / | wc -l -> 483183
15:48:14  <petern> heh
15:48:33  <petern> anyone would think those sprites are mystical
15:49:34  <Rubidium> filling them with noise would probably solve the problem
15:51:57  <yorick> omg, my river actually suicided this time
15:52:05  <yorick> it terraformed and killed its source :p
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15:53:17  <yorick> ooh, I asserted it
15:53:33  <yorick> it flowed up the mountain and then asserted
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15:59:57  <Antdovu> remove the anti-gravity ;)
16:01:19  <yorick> seems like the water flow table was not really made for steep slopes
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16:01:42  <yorick> btw, shouldn't the slopes have 1<<0, 1<<1 values instead of hex ones?
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16:17:16  <CIA-5> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14595 /trunk/src/ (41 files in 3 dirs):
16:17:16  <CIA-5> OpenTTD: -Add: Estonian currency.
16:17:16  <CIA-5> OpenTTD: -Change: Slovenia switched to the Euro in 2007.
16:18:33  <Eddi|zuHause> yorick: fix it
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16:20:47  <frosch123> but use the CORNER enum in that case
16:21:59  <yorick> I already fixed my problem :)
16:43:15  <Fantasya> afk
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16:52:57  <CIA-5> OpenTTD: frosch * r14596 /trunk/src/town_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r14591): Missing 'return'.
16:53:05  <SpComb> dun dun dun
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17:06:01  <Celestar> why is my Cordless Logitech Keybaord so crappy compared to the one in my notebook ...
17:06:41  <Eddi|zuHause> all the logitech keyboards i have seen had totally weird key layout
17:07:08  <Celestar> it's not the layout.
17:07:12  <Celestar> it feels ... wrong
17:08:40  * Celestar returns to using his notebook
17:08:45  <Eddi|zuHause> when i switch keyboards, i never hit the right keys anyway
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17:11:50  * Belugas has a Logitech at home. Loves it. For more than 2 years now. Maybe it's just the change that makes Celestar feeling like tghat
17:12:44  <Celestar> Belugas: I've noticed that once you have a Thinkpad, you never want a different keyboard again.
17:12:51  <Celestar> I'm not the only one with that "problem"
17:12:53  * fjb stays with Cherry G80-3000.
17:14:01  <Celestar> heh. Jaguar didn't manage to catch Roadrunner
17:14:32  <Antdovu> I know what you are talking about ;)
17:14:48  <Celestar> good :D
17:14:51  <Antdovu> but openttd still wouldn't run fast enough on either of those
17:14:57  <Antdovu> :P
17:15:10  <Celestar> I don't know what openttd you're talking about :P
17:15:21  <Antdovu> the other one
17:15:50  <Celestar> hah
17:16:04  <Antdovu> but they would probably be quite good as heaters
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17:20:03  <Celestar> hm Jaguar has 7MW, while Roadrunner has around 2.5 MW
17:20:14  <welshdragon> just a quick query: is there/will there be an xbox 360 port of openttd|?
17:20:43  <Celestar> if you make one, there will be one (=
17:21:07  <welshdragon> aah
17:21:22  <Antdovu> I'd make it
17:21:42  <Celestar> I just don't think anyone ever tried.
17:21:49  <Celestar> can imagine it's easier on the PS3
17:21:50  <Antdovu> but I am currently busy porting it to my doorbell
17:22:59  <Antdovu> I already managed to make linux run on it but the average time to boot up is currently 2 days
17:24:28  <Antdovu> someone suggested that I might not need radiation hardened components for it so I'm investigating the claim
17:26:16  <Celestar> maybe you should have your skull radiaton-hardened? :P
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17:28:20  <Antdovu> I regularly wear my tinfoil hat but thanks for the suggestion
17:28:55  <benjamingoodger> I believe I read an article one about a study that had found that tinfoil hats actually amplify EM radiation
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17:29:32  <Celestar> "Sir, I believe I know what is causing the neutrino emmissions"
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18:28:08  <planetmaker> Rubidium here?
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18:31:11  <Wolf01> hello
18:31:23  <dihedral> hello Wolf01
18:33:39  <Antdovu> I am looking for C8H10N4O2
18:34:00  <Wolf01> looks a kind of sugar
18:34:04  <Eddi|zuHause> looks like an explosive :p
18:34:23  <Eddi|zuHause> sugar doesn't usually contain N
18:34:54  <Wolf01> thank you, I missed the N
18:34:59  <Antdovu> C8H10N4O2 is a bitter white crystalline xanthine that acts as a psychoactive stimulant drug.
18:35:28  <Eddi|zuHause> that's close enough to an explosive ;)
18:35:29  <SmatZ> I would use some C2H5OH
18:35:39  <planetmaker> ^^:P
18:35:46  <planetmaker> easier to get hold of ;)
18:35:51  <SmatZ> :)
18:35:56  <Rubidium> yeah right...
18:36:18  <Rubidium> C8H10N4O2 is easier to acquire than C2H5OH
18:36:37  <planetmaker> sure?
18:36:41  <SmatZ> it depends... I don't drink coffee
18:36:47  <planetmaker> ah... :P
18:36:48  <Rubidium> Caffeine vs Alcohol
18:36:59  <Antdovu> planetmaker: google for the formula :P
18:37:01  <Belugas> caffeine, thanks
18:37:07  <Rubidium> the latter has age limits in more countries
18:37:12  <Rubidium> the former usually doesn't
18:37:14  <Belugas> but tonight, i would not mind alcohol
18:37:15  <SmatZ> though I dring a lot of tea
18:37:16  <Eddi|zuHause> i have Kaffeine, that's usually enough ;)
18:37:18  <SmatZ> drink
18:37:19  <Belugas> rhu8m, actually
18:37:22  <Rubidium> ergo the former is easier to acquire than the latter
18:37:22  <SmatZ> :)
18:37:25  <planetmaker> yeah... but with caffeine the structure matters. the sum isn't all which is important.
18:37:50  <SmatZ> "Caffeine is also called guaranine when found in guarana, mateine when found in mate, and theine when found in tea; all of these names are synonyms for the same chemical compound." <--- I didn't know that
18:38:10  <planetmaker> yup. I knew tea and coffee.
18:38:12  <Belugas> and slurp when found in my mug
18:38:20  <Rubidium> jeez.. some people really didn't pay attention during chemistry
18:38:20  <SmatZ> hehe
18:38:30  <planetmaker> :P
18:38:40  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know what these others are supposed to be
18:38:55  <Eddi|zuHause> but i know that theine and caffeine are the same thing
18:39:05  <Antdovu>
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18:42:50  <CIA-5> OpenTTD: translators * r14597 /trunk/src/lang/ (9 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
18:42:50  <CIA-5> OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2008-11-19 18:43:03
18:42:50  <CIA-5> OpenTTD: afrikaans - 165 fixed, 227 changed by nubllett (156), burgerd (236)
18:42:50  <CIA-5> OpenTTD: dutch - 2 fixed, 5 changed by Excel20 (7)
18:42:50  <CIA-5> OpenTTD: french - 2 fixed by glx (2)
18:42:51  <CIA-5> OpenTTD: german - 6 fixed, 2 changed by jonathan159 (2), MaSch (6)
18:42:53  <CIA-5> OpenTTD: hungarian - 1 fixed, 20 changed by oklmernok (21)
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20:26:42  <Fantasya> g' evening
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20:33:43  <gynter> no
20:34:17  <davis_> ok
20:38:29  <Antdovu> yes
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21:10:09  <Killer11> erm hi
21:10:30  <yorick> hi
21:11:57  <Rubidium> that's a strange greeting
21:13:41  <Killer11> I'm strange too so why should I care
21:13:53  <yorick> because we are also strange
21:14:17  <Killer11> but
21:14:29  <yorick> but...but
21:14:30  <Killer11> then you shouldn't care too
21:14:48  <yorick> yes, but I'm strange, so because of a strange reason, I do
21:14:52  <Eddi|zuHause> better than "YOU ALL SUCK DICK" ;)
21:15:03  <Killer11> BUT U DOOOO
21:15:05  <Killer11> lol
21:15:20  <Eddi|zuHause> ok... -1 points on the in-jokes
21:15:35  <Killer11> wait
21:15:37  <yorick> -1 on the greeting
21:15:41  <Killer11> do we actualy have points here?
21:15:46  <yorick> no
21:15:50  <Eddi|zuHause> you don't.
21:16:07  <yorick> unless you're strange in a strange way
21:16:19  <Killer11> doack
21:16:23  <Eddi|zuHause> you owe us points
21:16:41  <Eddi|zuHause> if you don't pay, we will sue the guts out of you
21:16:46  <Killer11> i owe you nothing
21:16:48  <Killer11> except oxen
21:16:53  <Killer11> lots of oxen
21:17:38  <yorick> I don't need oxen
21:17:48  <Killer11> no
21:17:49  <Killer11> you do
21:17:57  <Killer11> everyone does
21:17:57  <yorick> no, I'm strange
21:18:00  <yorick> I don't
21:18:34  <Killer11> i see
21:18:40  <Eddi|zuHause> my plonklist feels strangely empty, if that counts
21:18:41  <yorick> no you don't
21:18:50  <Killer11> you are one of them oxen-haters
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21:19:19  <yorick> no, I like oxen, but I don't actually need them
21:19:36  <Belugas> would a vegetarian need oxen?
21:19:43  <Killer11> people are starting to flee...
21:19:50  <yorick> no, and vegetarians are also strange
21:19:53  <yorick> so that explains
21:20:08  <Rubidium> Belugas: yes
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21:20:17  <Rubidium> just to work the fields
21:20:30  <yorick> they'd use soja-creatures for that
21:20:41  <Killer11> yup
21:20:42  <Killer11> soja
21:21:38  <Killer11> soja-moose is not amused by your mocking of soja
21:21:52  <Belugas> oh..  killer11... i know that guy.  on the forums.
21:22:09  <Killer11> oh dear
21:22:12  <Killer11> I am known
21:22:23  <Killer11> I should be delighted or smth
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21:23:09  <Killer11> i'm currently actively talking to myself in my trainset topic
21:23:13  <Killer11> THE FUN!
21:23:54  <Killer11> atleast people download it
21:24:06  <yorick> do they?
21:24:10  <Killer11> but they don't say a word...
21:24:20  <Killer11> last release got like 19 downloads and no comments
21:24:26  <yorick> maybe you just download it yourself
21:24:27  <Belugas> maybe it's better this way
21:24:31  <yorick> on your sleep
21:24:44  <Killer11> MUST DOWNLOAD MY SET 19 TIMES
21:24:50  <yorick> ^
21:24:50  <Belugas> maybe you would not like to ear what they have to say
21:25:06  <Killer11> problem is that i would
21:25:10  <Killer11> even if it sucks
21:25:12  <Belugas> maybe they are afraid to talk to someone who nicknamed self as "killer"
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21:25:44  <Killer11> people who are afraid of nicknames have alot of problems
21:25:45  <Fantasya> killer :D
21:25:48  <Killer11> serious problems
21:25:53  <Fantasya> Im listening now The_killers :D
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21:26:00  <Eddi|zuHause> i know that you french speaking people like to skip 'h's when speaking, but that you don't even write them now is new to me :p
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21:26:09  <Belugas> meybe they are those kind of people who just download any grf passing by and using them in bundles, not even knowing what is what and which is wich
21:26:32  <Killer11> maybe
21:26:35  <Killer11> oh whatever
21:26:54  <Killer11> i'm kinda happy to be the sole person that bothers making eastern block locos
21:27:07  <Killer11> i mean stuff that was used very videly in USSR
21:27:11  <yorick> didn't LA do that too?
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21:27:31  <Killer11> elaborate please
21:28:08  <Killer11> was that set released?
21:30:23  <yorick> no
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21:30:52  <Killer11> Mine is out even now
21:30:54  <yorick> does it even exist?
21:31:15  <Killer11> i don't really know
21:31:29  <Killer11> first time i hear that someone else was making an effort
21:31:56  <Killer11> so far my set is one mans job except for some little help on sprites by other people
21:32:00  <Killer11> alot of that stuff i'
21:32:05  <Killer11> ll redraw
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21:32:32  <Killer11> the only graphics of other artists that will stay will be the steamers
21:32:39  <Killer11> as i have no idea how to draw steamers
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21:33:17  <Fantasya> cars will replace horses
21:33:20  <Fantasya> :)
21:33:43  <Fantasya> this is the big problem :/
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21:34:57  <Killer11> erm?
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21:36:04  <Eddi|zuHause> Fantasya: welcome to 70 years ago ;)
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21:38:22  <frosch123> poor Killer11, manual industries is already at two comments and 118 downloads :p
21:38:38  <frosch123> did you already created a grfcrawler entry?
21:39:11  <AgentLeMan> good evening :o)
21:42:45  <Fantasya> Eddi
21:42:56  <Fantasya> cars will replace horse :)))))))))))))
21:43:10  <Fantasya> but one problem :DDDD
21:43:49  <AgentLeMan> Fantasya, you are working on the "OpenTTD: Medieval" total conversion? ;o)
21:44:14  <Fantasya> no no. I like maglev 8)
21:44:29  <Killer11> frosch, Yes I do have a grfcrawler entry
21:44:45  <Fantasya> :DDD
21:45:01  <Killer11> problem is most people on tt-forums are geared towards western europe/north america
21:45:08  <Fantasya>
21:45:11  <Fantasya> my video :DDD
21:45:14  <Killer11> it would be unrealistic for me to get high number of downloads
21:45:40  <Killer11> i checked the CSD set right now
21:45:46  <AgentLeMan> can you give me a direct link, killer?`
21:45:51  <frosch123> [22:47] <Killer11> frosch, Yes I do have a grfcrawler entry <- hehe, since when? (Last edit: 2008.11.19)
21:45:53  <Fantasya> shitty junction in video, but then i was be newbie ;D
21:45:54  <Killer11> and it does have exactly one locomotive that is in my set
21:45:55  <planetmaker> Killer11: most people may come from there. I once saw some images / words of intention on George's website. I'd love to see such set
21:45:59  <Killer11> it's M62
21:46:55  <Killer11>
21:47:02  <Killer11> read the info of usage
21:47:17  <Killer11> i am a totaly crude when it comes to coding
21:47:18  <AgentLeMan> thanks
21:47:24  <Killer11> i'll prolly need a coder later
21:47:33  <Killer11> as i don't know how to make articulated engines
21:47:34  <Killer11> ...
21:47:40  <Killer11> so i developed my own way
21:47:55  <Killer11> crude but reasonable
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21:48:25  <Killer11> the screenshot on that post is from abit older version
21:48:33  <Killer11> COCKBUST!!!!!
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21:48:38  <Killer11> anyways
21:48:50  <Killer11> quite some sprites have been redone
21:49:06  <Killer11> basicly i remade this whole set in like 4 or 5 days
21:49:29  <Killer11> as when i started to recover it it was like totaly broken and unusable
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21:50:35  <Killer11> if anyone wants I could dig up some screenies from older versions of the set
21:50:56  <Nite_Owl> Hello everyone
21:51:12  <AgentLeMan> what did he mean with "manual industries" though?
21:51:43  <AgentLeMan> frosch123> poor Killer11, manual industries is already at two comments and 118 downloads :p
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21:52:29  <AgentLeMan> wow.. trafficlights! :o)))))
21:52:31  <frosch123> AgentLeMan:
21:52:50  <AgentLeMan> good to see the vehicles get some attention too
21:53:14  <AgentLeMan> will we get parachutes for plane-emergencys too? ;o)
21:54:47  <Wolf01> 'night
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21:55:32  <AgentLeMan> frosch123, hm, that sounds, as if we then wouldnt be just transporters, but more like... suppliers too, like in transport giant?
21:56:06  <planetmaker> frosch123: nice grf :)
21:56:20  <planetmaker> I think it's especially suitable for certain kind of scenarios...
21:57:07  <AgentLeMan> and i guess, it wont work with ECS
21:57:14  <frosch123> hehe, thanks :) Though I don't know why someone can enjoy playing with it, I put it on grfcrawler when the download counter passed 50 :s
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22:03:30  <planetmaker> frosch123: another proof that peoples perception of "fun" may greatly vary - and a big amount of people has more ideas than a few :P
22:04:20  <planetmaker> mind, I added download 119 ;)
22:04:42  <AgentLeMan> planetmaker, thats why a modulesystem would be great, as far as i know, you cant do everything with GRFs?
22:05:05  <Rubidium> you can't do everything with any module system either...
22:05:15  <planetmaker> hehe. yeah
22:05:25  <AgentLeMan> hm, i thought of something like the mutators in unreal tournament
22:06:09  <Rubidium> does UT allow you to replace the complete graphics rendering with your own scripted version?
22:06:17  <Rubidium> no? so why should we do that?
22:06:57  <planetmaker> Rubidium: well... you nearly do ;) It just needs newrails / newroads ;)
22:07:41  <Rubidium> that only changes the input, not the rendering process itself
22:08:25  <planetmaker> ok :)
22:08:39  <Eddi|zuHause> AgentLeMan: what makes you think loading of grfs is not a module system?
22:08:47  <AgentLeMan> Rubidium : because people can then develop additions without knowing much about the system itself, or wont have to go too deep into the whole development process?
22:08:57  <Eddi|zuHause> there's even a second module system, for the AIs
22:09:36  <frosch123> AgentLeMan: tell that to a newgrf coder, that he does not need to know much about ttd
22:09:38  <planetmaker> AgentLeMan: you think there's anywhere a way to make good additions to anything without knowing the base you work on?
22:10:20  <Rubidium> yay... more people who talk without knowing what they are actually talking about...
22:10:47  <AgentLeMan> Rubidium : thats called "learning"
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22:11:35  <Rubidium> making such unfounded statements makes it all the more likely to end up on the ignore lists of the people who can actually help you
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22:14:00  <AgentLeMan> theres no need to be so touchy. i didnt intended to offend anyone, nor make your work sound bad. i dont know, why theres suddenly this rise of tension.
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22:19:48  <Rubidium> because there's a fairly large number of people telling all kinds of lies and then there are other people who get upset by the lies
22:20:20  <frosch123> maybe we can rename "NewGRF" to "TTDScript" :p
22:21:07  <planetmaker> :)
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22:22:39  <AgentLeMan> Rubidium : have you an example?
22:23:17  <frosch123> somehow putting spaces in front of colons reminds me about babyottd
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22:27:00  <Rubidium> people telling that PBS was in trunk without it being in trunk, people telling that fixing the ship path finder is simple
22:27:13  <Rubidium> people telling that their patch is desync safe
22:27:43  <AgentLeMan> °grins° youre not possibly referring to uhm... how was it called... plenking?
22:28:00  <Rubidium> people telling that their patch is savegame safe when they aren't
22:28:33  <Rubidium> people telling that making everything configurable is easy and makes it more useful for the users
22:29:13  <Eddi|zuHause> people telling that switching to XML makes extensions easier ;)
22:30:53  <AgentLeMan> that is an assumption i cant agree with, Rubidium. i in no way said, it was easy. someone having an idea without knowing, if or how it works, or if the implentation would be easy/hard/possible, still has an idea.
22:31:27  <Rubidium> did I say you said that?
22:32:11  <AgentLeMan> sorry, it sounded to me like you did. as that was kinda something i did.
22:33:01  <Rubidium> of all "new" ideas a very small percentage is actually new; the rest is just the so manyth time asking for the same thing
22:33:04  <Killer11> i am out of words
22:33:14  <Killer11> POLAND WHAT DID YOU DO
22:33:27  <Killer11> how come your ducktales song reversed soudns liek this
22:33:34  <Killer11> twisted people
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22:34:43  <AgentLeMan> Rubidium: yes, after i again tried out OpenTTD after some pause, i thought about some things with a firend i play often over the net and, as i then later looked at the wiki, i saw, many og those things are already in place or in development.
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23:55:07  <CIA-5> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14598 /trunk/src/ (6 files): -Feature: Action0Industries property 24 (industry suuplies default name for nearby station).
23:55:22  <Patrick> oooh
23:55:38  <Patrick> wait, don't we have that?
23:55:46  <Patrick> townston mines, townston woods, townston wells
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