Log for #openttd on 22nd November 2008:
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00:00:02  *** TinoM [] has quit [Quit: Verlassend]
00:02:06  <Sacro>
00:05:21  <benjamingoodger> good evening, gentlemen
00:07:19  <Antdovu> all your base are belong to us
00:08:17  <benjamingoodger> hmmm
00:08:52  <benjamingoodger> although I didn't intend to emulate a tired old cliché, I recognise the possibility that I act too much like an evil genius
00:09:05  <Antdovu> you set yourself up for it :P
00:09:13  *** Vikthor [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
00:09:44  <benjamingoodger> I do have a tendency to go "excellent!" while steepling my fingers and leaning back in a high-backed chair, I will admit
00:10:22  <benjamingoodger> though I retain a full head of dark brown hair. possibly I will shave much of it off and dye it grey for a fancy-dress party.
00:13:22  * benjamingoodger increments his conversation-killing combo score
00:15:23  <Antdovu> you are the only person in this room
00:15:24  *** dvo [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
00:15:29  <Antdovu> everyone else is a bot
00:15:45  *** nekx [] has joined #openttd
00:16:04  *** mortal [] has quit [Quit: Enohp eht no S'enilorac, Regor... Tnoflahc, mraf ynnuf eht fo erac, 'Knip Dlo' ot rewsna ruoy dnes esaelp. Egassem terces eht derevocsid tsuj evah uoy, sn]
00:16:44  <benjamingoodger> aww
00:17:41  <benjamingoodger> oh well
00:17:53  <benjamingoodger> this does at least confirm my theory that everyone else exists merely to worsen my paranoia
00:18:08  <Antdovu> that is 100% correct
00:18:44  <Antdovu> but keep in mind that you are actually making everyone up
00:18:52  <Antdovu> you can get rid of them by forgetting about them
00:18:54  <benjamingoodger> you're doing it now!
00:19:04  <benjamingoodger> however, you'd be paranoid too, if everyone were conspiring against you
00:19:33  <Antdovu> I can confirm that I am actually planning to kill you in your sleep
00:19:59  <Antdovu> you will not remember it when you wake up
00:20:03  <benjamingoodger> you'll have to get over my tin-foil electric fence, though
00:20:15  <Antdovu> but you will be terrified of carrots for a weird reason
00:20:52  <benjamingoodger> how will I be terrified of carrots when I'm dead?
00:20:58  <benjamingoodger> how, indeed, will I wake up after being killed?
00:21:42  <Antdovu> there are more than one way to parse what I say ;)
00:21:55  <Antdovu> that is done on purpose to make you as confused as possible
00:23:03  <benjamingoodger> hmm
00:23:09  <benjamingoodger> failure
00:23:20  <Eddi|zuHause> # bunnies aren't just cute like everybody supposes
00:23:35  <benjamingoodger> ...antdovu isn't a bunny
00:23:36  <Eddi|zuHause> # they got them hoppy legs and twitchy little noses
00:23:51  <Eddi|zuHause> # and what's with all the carrots
00:24:03  <Eddi|zuHause> # what do they need such good eye sight for anyway
00:24:28  <Eddi|zuHause> # bunnies, bunnies, it must be BUNNIES
00:24:42  <Antdovu> actually, I am:
00:24:52  <Eddi|zuHause> # ... or maybe midgets
00:25:05  * benjamingoodger chucks his newly-developed caesium bomb at Eddi|zuHause and flees
00:25:08  *** Nite_Owl [] has quit [Quit: Read You Soon]
00:26:16  *** silent [~pwr@] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
00:26:21  <benjamingoodger> oh, thank goodness. being covered in boiling caesium hydroxide seems to have made him be quiet ¬.¬
00:26:49  <Antdovu> it would be awesome to meet a bunny like me at night on a dark alley
00:27:16  <Eddi|zuHause> no, i'm actually just quietly pondering new ways of justifying your paranoia
00:27:34  <benjamingoodger> actually, I said worsen, not justify
00:27:42  <benjamingoodger> those are opposite and mutually exclusive
00:28:13  <Eddi|zuHause> hm, i'd say those are orthogonal
00:28:42  <benjamingoodger> you'd say a lot of things, I'm sure
00:29:49  <Antdovu> yes, I would
00:30:07  <benjamingoodger> ...not you ¬.¬
00:30:22  <benjamingoodger> so, which is better?
00:30:26  <benjamingoodger> germany, sweden, or norway?
00:30:50  <Antdovu> your schizophrenia is getting worse
00:31:20  <benjamingoodger> why do you say that?
00:31:41  <Antdovu> you are further splitting your personalities
00:31:55  * Antdovu is Eddi|zuHause
00:31:58  *** Eddi|zuHause [] has quit []
00:32:03  <Antdovu> see? ;)
00:32:09  <benjamingoodger> hmmmmm
00:32:16  <benjamingoodger> conspiracy!
00:32:20  *** Eddi|zuHause [] has joined #openttd
00:32:28  <Eddi|zuHause> no, i don't see
00:32:49  <benjamingoodger> actually, schizophrenia is a type of psychosis rather than multiple personalities
00:32:54  <Antdovu> benjamingoodger: I am your sane self
00:33:01  <benjamingoodger> you're thinking of Multiple Personality Disorder
00:33:06  <Antdovu> you have both
00:33:14  <Eddi|zuHause> actually, it's written with tz
00:33:19  <appe> :O
00:33:23  <appe> i love trains
00:33:28  <appe> at the same time i hate'm.
00:34:17  <benjamingoodger> that's perfectly normal
00:34:22  * fjb prefers to love girls.
00:34:23  <Antdovu> and that is your openttd crazed self...
00:35:41  *** dlunch [~dlunch@] has joined #openttd
00:35:53  <benjamingoodger> hmmm
00:35:54  *** dlunch [~dlunch@] has quit []
00:36:17  <benjamingoodger> so, antdovu is Eddi|zuHause, and also, antdovu is me, and I'm appe
00:36:28  <Antdovu> that is correct
00:36:39  <benjamingoodger> so who is fjb?
00:36:45  <Antdovu> a bee
00:36:56  * fjb is fjb.
00:37:12  <Eddi|zuHause> a giant bee?
00:37:18  <Antdovu> a tiny bee
00:37:30  <benjamingoodger> a tiny bee that still manages to press a keyboard?
00:37:34  <benjamingoodger> hmmm
00:37:34  <Antdovu> yes
00:37:36  <Eddi|zuHause> right... another -1 on the in-jokes...
00:37:57  <Antdovu> but as you see he can't talk
00:38:01  <Antdovu> he can only do
00:38:08  <benjamingoodger> some brief calculations reveal that he would have to be travelling very nearly at lightspeed before gaining enough mass to impact upon a keyboard
00:38:50  <Antdovu> he has quite a few higgs bosons
00:39:01  <benjamingoodger> ...
00:39:18  <benjamingoodger> that particle isn't yet known to exist, you know
00:39:28  <benjamingoodger> how can you possibly tell how many he has?
00:39:40  <Antdovu> remember: I am your sane self
00:39:49  <benjamingoodger> and no matter how many he has, he still has only 0.98 grams of mass
00:39:49  <Antdovu> you are the leading one
00:39:52  <Antdovu> but still insane
00:40:26  <benjamingoodger> or rather, 0.098 grams, pm 0.02g
00:42:18  <benjamingoodger> ...anywho
00:43:26  <Antdovu> some of your rational personalities have left
00:43:34  <Antdovu> only the imaginary ones are left
00:43:54  <benjamingoodger> benjamingoodger.convokillcombo = benjamingoodger.convokillcombo + 1
00:43:55  <Antdovu> and a few irrational multiples of pi
00:44:11  <appe> :O
00:44:51  *** Brianetta [] has quit [Quit: TschÌß]
00:45:18  <benjamingoodger> hurrah for pi
00:46:07  <Antdovu> fresh apple pi ftw!
00:46:25  <Antdovu> ;)
00:46:40  <benjamingoodger> mince pis are nicer
00:47:42  <benjamingoodger> unless it's mcdonalds apple pi, which is not pi at all, but a weird phi-like number
00:47:51  <benjamingoodger> and not nearly irrational
00:47:56  <benjamingoodger> but still nice
00:48:20  <Antdovu> obviously, nobody should eat mcdonals pi
00:48:26  <Eddi|zuHause> apple is bad anyway
00:48:56  <appe> mcdonald pi.
00:48:58  <appe> interesting.
00:49:03  <Antdovu> iDon'tThinkSo
00:49:40  <appe> fourteen seconds is almost six months for me
00:49:46  <appe> when minimized
00:49:47  <appe> whohoo!
00:50:08  <Eddi|zuHause>
00:50:12  <Antdovu> a bit out of the line, isn't it? :P
00:54:47  <benjamingoodger> yes, that was a bit of a non sequitor
00:55:50  <Antdovu>
00:58:27  <benjamingoodger> "the nineties are not important!"
01:01:09  <Antdovu> you and your personalities were all misunderstood
01:01:43  *** Antdovu [] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
01:02:03  <benjamingoodger> wha?
01:04:19  <benjamingoodger> "there is no such thing as alternative medicine---if something works in trials, it ceases to be 'alternative'. therefore, all 'alternative' medicine is actually stuff that doesn't actually work"
01:06:13  <Eddi|zuHause> that video of Antdovu's was not funny...
01:07:26  <benjamingoodger> subjectivity warning
01:07:31  <benjamingoodger> it was funnier than yours
01:07:34  *** Bergee [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
01:07:36  <benjamingoodger> subjectivity warning concludes
01:08:06  <Eddi|zuHause> your subjectivity is too subjective for me
01:08:22  <Patrick> what about things for which hunches exist, and which trials will eventually deem useful
01:08:30  <Patrick> but which currently is not rigorously proven to work
01:08:39  <benjamingoodger> well, then
01:08:45  <benjamingoodger> if it's not proven to work, then it's rubbish
01:08:48  <Patrick> they're inseperable from the bullshit because there's no rigorous evidence
01:09:04  <Eddi|zuHause> witch trials you deem useful?
01:09:14  <Patrick> but if a trial has never been done, there's some scale of judgement used to assign trials to possible leads
01:09:33  <Patrick> some alternative medicine is clearly BS and some is promoted to mainstream through careful study.
01:09:55  <benjamingoodger> well, if it is proven to work, then, yes, it becomes ordinary medicine
01:09:56  *** Bergee [] has joined #openttd
01:09:57  <Patrick> the distinction between the two is where the money is
01:10:12  <Patrick> that is, that's bollocks, and that has a good chance of being real
01:10:41  <benjamingoodger> well, the former is, and the latter is new and/or unproven
01:11:18  <appe> how do i drag signals so it only gets one-wayed?
01:11:38  <benjamingoodger> appe: place a single signal, set it to one-way, then start your drag on that signal
01:11:47  <appe> ooh
01:11:50  <appe> thank you.
01:11:54  <benjamingoodger> 's'ok
01:11:56  <Patrick> benjamingoodger: I would argue that there are items of alternative medicine that may eventually make the transition
01:12:46  <benjamingoodger> the trouble is, nearly all natural cures were tested extensively decades ago
01:13:00  <benjamingoodger> the ones that worked were refined and made into overpriced pills with funny names
01:13:21  <Patrick> hmm
01:13:22  <Patrick> true
01:13:23  <benjamingoodger> the remainder are diluted into impossible dilutions and labelled "alternative medicine" to avoid regulation
01:13:29  <Patrick> new leads come from obscure place
01:13:39  <Patrick> like the organochlorine from tree frogs
01:13:51  <benjamingoodger> well, yes, but that's hardly alternative
01:13:52  <Patrick> trivial molecule, unknown mode of action in painkilling
01:14:01  <benjamingoodger> it's just unstudied
01:14:01  <Patrick> I see where you're coming from
01:14:28  <benjamingoodger> stuff doesn't become alternative, until it has been rejected by proper medicine (because, in the absence of mistrial, it's useless)
01:14:35  <Patrick> anything the alternative community gets thier hands on is either a castoff from the drug industry or just total bollocks like, well, total bollocks
01:14:50  <benjamingoodger> absolument
01:14:58  <benjamingoodger> except chiropractic. :P
01:15:04  <benjamingoodger> well, to a large extent
01:15:51  <benjamingoodger> for instance, my back used to hurt, and be curved to a ludicrous degree, thus impeding my breathing to a noticeable degree
01:16:04  <benjamingoodger> now that it has been straightened, it no longer hurts
01:16:05  <Eddi|zuHause> except it's spelled absolutement
01:16:13  <benjamingoodger> quiet, you
01:16:16  <Patrick> hmm, back problems
01:16:19  <benjamingoodger> therefore, it was a succes
01:16:29  <Eddi|zuHause> just all the "t"s and "e"s are silent in french :p
01:16:35  <benjamingoodger> ah
01:16:38  <Patrick> there are many reasons why it could have reduced your apparent pain
01:16:55  <benjamingoodger> I've never knowingly seen a french person spell it, is all
01:16:56  <Patrick> only one of which is "it fixed the problem as you describe, in the way you describe"
01:17:09  <Patrick> actually, I've just realised I'm a huge fucking hypocrite
01:17:16  <Patrick> because I take 10 grams of vitamin C a day
01:17:24  <Patrick> irregardless of how healthy I feel
01:17:25  <benjamingoodger> that's not alternative medicine
01:17:31  <benjamingoodger> that's vitamin C megadosing
01:17:39  <Patrick> the cards are still up in the air about it
01:17:50  <Patrick> it's a matter of opinion for doctors, therefore it's not mainstream
01:18:00  <Patrick> and it's not an official treatment for many things it should be
01:18:05  <Patrick> (imo)
01:18:08  <benjamingoodger> well, no
01:18:24  <benjamingoodger> but humans in general are horrifyingly malnourished as far as vitamin c is concerned...
01:18:34  <Eddi|zuHause> taking vitamins by pills is (imho) a bad idea
01:18:40  <benjamingoodger> I might consider 10g a bit excessive, but we definitely need much, much more in our diet
01:18:45  <Patrick> the evidence to suggest we need a lot more than the RDA is compelling
01:19:05  <benjamingoodger> yes, Eddi|zuHause raises a good point, pills < fruit
01:19:10  <Patrick> given that every mammal has roughly the same body-mass-to-internally-generated-vitamin-C ratio
01:19:20  <Patrick> which would calculate for a human to be about 5-10 grams a day
01:19:21  <Eddi|zuHause> you should instead change your eating habits to things that contain these vitamins naturally
01:19:27  <benjamingoodger> yep
01:19:33  <benjamingoodger> well...
01:19:41  <Patrick> you'd have to eat nothing but peppers and rose hips
01:19:48  <benjamingoodger> I'd find it extremely difficult to eat 10g of vitamin c daily.
01:19:52  <Patrick> which is what was theorised to happen to our ancestors :)
01:20:08  <Patrick> like, actually just 5kg of bell peppers a day or something
01:20:14  <Patrick> anyway, I drink it in solution in water
01:20:20  <benjamingoodger> however, since it's virtually impossible to overdose on the stuff, I say cram the pills down your throat until you choke on them
01:20:27  <Patrick> GI absorption is the same mechanism as dietary
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01:20:38  <Eddi|zuHause> humanity has survived 10 thousand years without that kind of vitamin C overdose
01:20:48  <Patrick> barely
01:21:07  <Patrick> why do you think guinea pig is a synonym for medicinal experimental subject
01:21:32  <Eddi|zuHause> "barely" is perfectly fine in most natural environments
01:21:36  <benjamingoodger> regrettably, the modern diet of the average human is shockingly dissimilar to that of 8,000 BC homosapiens
01:21:38  <Patrick> they suffer from many of the same medical conditions we do that no other animals seem to, bare a few isolated examples
01:21:50  <Eddi|zuHause> nature does not do anything more than is absolutelly necessary
01:21:52  <Patrick> guess what, guineas can't synthesise vitamin C in vivo either
01:21:54  <benjamingoodger> for instance, we eat carbohydrates
01:21:56  <Patrick> yeah
01:22:12  <benjamingoodger> which are known to be really, really, _really_ unhealthy
01:22:14  <Patrick> like, it was an evolutionary advantage to lose the enzyme functionality, when we were getting it in our diet
01:22:33  <Patrick> saving energy -> more likely to reproduce
01:23:07  <benjamingoodger> however, we are no longer based entirely in the forests of east africa, and therefore now somewhat less likely to be stuffing our faces with fruits all day
01:23:13  <Patrick> quite.
01:23:20  <Patrick> the body made do with other oxidants
01:23:29  <benjamingoodger> eh, antioxidants
01:23:34  <Patrick> it's not possible to mutate an enzyme back into action
01:23:40  <Patrick> so we limped along
01:23:51  <benjamingoodger> starting around 900 AD, we've managed to completely revamp our diets
01:24:12  <Patrick> also, human evolution's stopped in the last 10,000 years or so
01:24:29  <benjamingoodger> meat and vegetables are out, artificially bred starches and the milk of a distantly related mammal are in
01:24:47  <Patrick> ssh
01:24:54  <Patrick> I just had a cheese sandwich
01:24:56  *** stillunknown [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
01:24:59  <Patrick> what about potatoes?
01:25:07  <Patrick> I read about a diet once
01:25:10  <Patrick> the paleolithic diet
01:25:19  <Patrick> you're only allowed stuff that people can eat raw
01:25:19  <benjamingoodger> the modern potato is rather bigger than its forebear
01:25:25  <Patrick> no corn, no potatoes
01:25:35  <Patrick> you can of course cook what's allowed, but no starches :)
01:25:39  <benjamingoodger> mmm
01:25:40  <Patrick> argh sleep
01:25:41  <Patrick> later
01:25:45  <benjamingoodger> well, starch is of course a human invention
01:25:57  <benjamingoodger> and, like most of our inventions, bad for us
01:26:08  <benjamingoodger> byee
01:26:17  <benjamingoodger> Eddi|zuHause: you still here? :D
01:26:38  <Eddi|zuHause> no... i _was_ falling asleep...
01:26:44  <benjamingoodger> ah, sorry
01:36:09  <benjamingoodger> some of these questions scare me
01:36:10  <benjamingoodger>
01:36:20  <benjamingoodger> the idea that any US citizen could get them wrong...
01:38:35  <benjamingoodger> I got 73%
01:38:37  <benjamingoodger> I am English
01:39:16  <benjamingoodger> slashdot tells me that the US's elected officials scored 44%
01:41:27  <Eddi|zuHause> i am guessing half the time
01:41:59  <benjamingoodger> some of them are sickeningly obvious
01:42:09  <benjamingoodger> "name two of the US's enemies during WW2"
01:42:51  <Sacro> "B. advocated black separatism"
01:42:53  * Sacro clicks
01:43:45  <Eddi|zuHause> for example, i have no idea how the first few amendments are ordered
01:43:45  <benjamingoodger> you would have to be _appallingly_ stupid not to know the answer to the above question
01:43:50  <Sacro> benjamingoodger: aren't two of those correct?
01:43:56  <Sacro> "China and Russia"?
01:44:05  <benjamingoodger> no, no, certainly not
01:44:12  <Sacro> russia was at first
01:44:21  <Sacro> until germany turned on them
01:44:25  <benjamingoodger> china was not yet communist
01:44:39  <benjamingoodger> and the Soviets were, throughout the actual war, allied with the, er, Allies
01:45:10  <benjamingoodger> only 68% of american citizens got that correct... it's sickening
01:46:13  <vraa> i got 31 out of 33 correct
01:46:23  <benjamingoodger> are you a US citizen?
01:47:10  <vraa> yeah, i'm from texas
01:47:13  <vraa> and i'm an econ major
01:47:19  <benjamingoodger> ah
01:47:25  <vraa> i think 33 is wrong, i said it's A, the answer it says is D
01:47:35  <vraa> A makes more sense than D
01:47:49  <benjamingoodger> no, it does not
01:47:54  <vraa> i also missed number 7, i'll be honest, i didn't know so i guessed B
01:48:01  <vraa> please explain why
01:48:16  <vraa> if taxes equal government spending, then: tax per person equals government spending per person?
01:48:19  <vraa> that doesn't make sense
01:48:29  <vraa> you can tax 1 guy and spend all his money, then taxes will be equal to gov't spending
01:48:36  <vraa> that doesn't mean that tax per person = gov't spending per person
01:48:38  <appe> i just got heavy problems
01:48:47  <vraa> especially if you taxed him and spent all themoney on hookers and coke
01:49:05  <benjamingoodger> er, actually, it's a matter of simple algebra
01:49:11  <appe> i have multiple trains leaving coal at a station. i accidentaly deleted the station, and rebuilded it. i had to redo the orders on all the trains, but now they refuse to leave everything there, but a small part of it.
01:49:12  <vraa> A is the correct answer for 33. if gov't spends as much as it pulls in in taxes, it can't have a debt of zero
01:49:15  <appe> :(
01:49:22  <benjamingoodger> if you collect  from everyone and spend it all, then tax = spending (0m = 0m)
01:49:38  <benjamingoodger> dividing by the number of people gives you the tax per person and the spend per person
01:49:46  <vraa> oh, that's what it means, i thought it meant if it collected 100$, the spending of stuff for that person would be 100$
01:49:48  <benjamingoodger> so divide both sides by 300m
01:49:53  <benjamingoodger> ah
01:49:54  <benjamingoodger> no
01:49:59  <vraa> yes your way makes a lot more sense
01:50:36  <vraa> well we will chalk that one up to carelessness :(
01:50:42  <benjamingoodger> ...and if you have a preexisting debt caused by an illiterate son of an oil baron, and your spending is equal to your income, then you will neither increase nor decrease the debt.
01:50:53  <appe> i dont get it
01:51:05  <vraa> yeah but i thought we were assuming no preexisting debt
01:51:22  <benjamingoodger> why? it doesn't say that
01:51:23  <vraa> i think a few of the questions were vauge, but due to some of the answer choices being oviously wrong, it was easy to pick what the right answer "should" be
01:51:28  <benjamingoodger> #7... yes, I missed that one too. I thought it sounded jeffersonian
01:51:50  <vraa> overall, i think this quiz should be mandatory for the citizenship test
01:51:55  <vraa> and i dont think birthright citizenship should exist
01:52:02  <vraa> some of these questions are thought-provoking
01:52:04  <benjamingoodger> that's a terrible idea
01:52:12  <vraa> why
01:52:21  <benjamingoodger> you'd deport hundreds of millions of hardworking morons :P
01:52:39  <appe> quiz? language quiz?
01:52:42  <vraa>
01:52:49  <benjamingoodger> possibly up to 220m people
01:52:50  <vraa> i wouldn't deport...
01:52:55  <vraa> i believe in freemarket of labor
01:53:01  <vraa> no immigration rules/laws/quotas
01:53:07  <benjamingoodger> what do you do to those who don't pass the citizenship test, then?
01:53:10  <vraa> however, citizenship is hard to get
01:53:14  <vraa> they dont get citizenship
01:53:23  <vraa> just because you aren't an american citizen doesn't mean you can't stay in america
01:53:25  <benjamingoodger> how does this affect their lives?
01:53:32  <vraa> you just can't vote, and a few other minor things i believe
01:53:37  <benjamingoodger> ah
01:53:56  <vraa> i would probably expand it though, like being able to own a firearm
01:53:58  <benjamingoodger> so, in other words, you want to restrict voting to a minority of people who know what they're on about
01:54:00  <benjamingoodger> excellent idea!
01:54:01  <appe> wtf
01:54:08  <appe> my trains only leaves half of what they have
01:54:13  <vraa> i think you have to be an american citizen to vote already
01:54:18  <benjamingoodger> except the part about firearms
01:54:33  <vraa> i think you should have citizenship to own a gun, how is it right now?
01:54:46  <vraa> don't you have to pass background checks and what not, that's good
01:54:54  <vraa> the nice thing about a strict citizenship test means you can use it for other things too
01:54:58  <benjamingoodger> I think you have to have citizenship to own a gun
01:55:11  <benjamingoodger> however, in europe, we simply don't allow the blasted things, and that seems to work rather better
01:55:15  <vraa> perhaps
01:55:27  <vraa> but in america the perception of freedom is different
01:55:29  <benjamingoodger> our policemen are unarmed by default, we have no people shooting their families by accident, etc
01:55:51  <benjamingoodger> freedom applies to your right to do stuff to yourself, not to other people
01:55:52  <vraa> america is different from rest of world
01:56:19  <vraa> one of the things the founding fathers thought would be smart to do to ourselves was defend ourselves
01:56:23  <benjamingoodger> yes
01:56:30  <vraa> the right to bear arms is supposed to i think, be to form a militia
01:56:34  <vraa> and be able to over throw the govt
01:56:35  <benjamingoodger> quite
01:56:40  <benjamingoodger> second amendment woot
01:56:48  <vraa> but i think thanks to the spectacularly advanced american military, that's kinda a lost cause
01:56:56  <benjamingoodger> quite
01:57:08  <vraa> i wouldn't want to see a coup though
01:57:13  <vraa> especially in texas
01:57:17  <Eddi|zuHause> You answered 26 out of 33 correctly — 78.79 %
01:57:35  <benjamingoodger> why especially in texas?
01:57:49  <vraa> who doesn't have a gun in texas?
01:57:55  <benjamingoodger> I don't know
01:58:14  <vraa> i dont, but i know the houses on my left and right, across the street, and on their left and right are stocked with guns
01:58:21  <vraa> like gun safes full of guns
01:58:24  <benjamingoodger> mmhmm
01:58:33  <Eddi|zuHause> but i think many of the questions are actually very difficult
01:58:37  <benjamingoodger> we're well aware of that. and, no offence to you personally, this is why we laugh at you
01:58:41  <vraa> i'm sure they've got enough to supply te entire neighborhood, so if it came down to an invasion things would be nuts
01:58:45  <benjamingoodger> well...part of the reason
01:58:50  <benjamingoodger> quite.
01:59:07  <vraa> well think of it this way: for many other countries they can identify themselves through their ethnicity
01:59:19  <vraa> in america, it's harder to do that, it's much more synthetic
01:59:26  <benjamingoodger> though really, I must point out that the second amendment is just a hangover from the 1790s, and has no relevance today, particularly as the british army has gone to iraq
01:59:48  <vraa> well hangover or not, there should be more and it should've been more clear
01:59:59  <vraa> i dont think anyone really cares about any of that these days
02:00:05  <vraa> politics just does what it does
02:00:53  <benjamingoodger> if only people hadn't stopped paying attention to the founding fathers
02:01:07  <vraa> can you blame them though
02:01:15  <benjamingoodger> frankly, yes, I can
02:01:16  <vraa> who has the time to pay attention to what goes on
02:01:30  <benjamingoodger> well, I do, and I'm several thousand miles away
02:01:46  <vraa> how many kids do you have, do you work?
02:02:07  <vraa> the problem with politics is that it's driven by those who aren't satisfied with the way things are
02:02:21  <vraa> by the nature of politics, only the most aggressive succeed
02:02:46  <vraa> those who work well at being able to get their way, so the entir eprocess of politics isn't refining to be the most efficient, but by doing the wishes of whoever is in power
02:02:56  <benjamingoodger> I hope never to reproduce, I'm at college studying for an MBA (which here is not a wishy-washy degree for rich and stupid people)
02:03:00  <vraa> it would work better if we had more parties
02:03:06  <benjamingoodger> yes, it would
02:04:09  <benjamingoodger> you don't want to go too far, though
02:04:30  <benjamingoodger> in many european countries there are so many parties that nothing ever gets done because nobody can agree on anything
02:04:41  <vraa> well we can't just have 2, that's stupid. 3 doesn't work either because 1 would always cause the loss of the other
02:04:47  <vraa> i think 5 or more but less than 7
02:04:55  <vraa> i mean less than 10
02:05:04  <benjamingoodger> hm
02:05:09  <vraa> gridlock is fine with me, the less gov't does = better
02:05:32  <benjamingoodger> ah, yes, let's leave everything to large companies. they have our best interests at heart, after all
02:05:52  <Eddi|zuHause> <vraa> that doesn't mean that tax per person = gov't spending per person <- if a = b, then a/n = b/n, very simple maths...
02:06:11  <vraa> yeah Eddi|zuHause, i thought that means taxing 100$ from person a means you'll spend 100$ on person a
02:06:16  <vraa> i just completely mis understood the question
02:06:31  <benjamingoodger> well, ideally, you will
02:06:39  <benjamingoodger> otherwise that person is either being subsidised or subsidising
02:06:47  <Eddi|zuHause> well, with a statistical variance ;)
02:06:51  <vraa> yeah corporatism is severely flawed
02:06:57  <benjamingoodger> but if you aren't subsidising anyone, then taxes are useless
02:07:23  <vraa> no
02:07:30  <vraa> well
02:07:55  <vraa> we'll have a revolution "soon" in government types
02:08:05  <vraa> the government to emerge will be, i think, one of more risky attitudes
02:08:05  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, taxes are so you are forced to pay for something that has no direct benefit for you
02:08:24  <vraa> a government which will tax and then spend money on random super high return high volitility investments
02:08:37  <vraa> like fusion
02:08:38  <Eddi|zuHause> you mean risk even more than a war with half the world?
02:08:39  <vraa> space travel
02:08:52  <vraa> military spending is amazing, it drives so much R&D
02:08:57  <benjamingoodger> strictly speaking, taxation is a counterinflationary measure
02:09:06  <Eddi|zuHause> AGAINST the will of the other half of the world, too?
02:09:33  <vraa> fiat currencies are inflationary inherently
02:09:39  <vraa> who cares about the rest of the world
02:09:43  <vraa> america! fuck yeah!
02:09:46  <benjamingoodger> *ahem*
02:09:50  <benjamingoodger> perhaps, we?
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02:09:58  <benjamingoodger> that is to say, we, the rest of the world
02:10:02  <Eddi|zuHause> the rest of the world, i presume ;)
02:10:02  <vraa> don't worry, as long as you're on the good guys side, you won't be bomed
02:10:17  <Eddi|zuHause> but i'm a communist bastard
02:10:25  <benjamingoodger> who gets to decide whether the side we're on is the good side?
02:10:33  <vraa> easy -- yes or no: are you a terrorist
02:10:39  <vraa> if yes, then bomb. if no, exit
02:11:01  <benjamingoodger> your government hasn't been very efficient in that, though
02:11:20  <vraa> that's what happens when you put idiots in charge
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02:11:28  <vraa> america is going through the dumb phase
02:11:39  <benjamingoodger> it has killed countless hundreds of thousands of civilians, and over seven years of "searching" a surprisingly small area of land, has still not located Osama bin Laden
02:11:55  <vraa> the goal never was obl
02:12:05  <vraa> it's to prevent iran from securing regional hegemony
02:12:26  <benjamingoodger> I thought the goal was to prevent iraq from bombing malta?
02:12:53  <vraa> if malta has oil, then yes, that is the goal
02:12:54  <benjamingoodger> and before that, to prevent the taliban from demolishing another pair of office blocks
02:13:07  <Eddi|zuHause> no, the goal was demagogy and bathing in black liquid
02:13:16  <benjamingoodger> malta has no oil, iraq had no bombs
02:13:22  <vraa> iraq has oil though
02:13:28  <benjamingoodger> iraq did start trading oil in euros, however, in 2002
02:13:52  <benjamingoodger> which is bad for the US on so many levels I can't even begin to describe them without accidentally being awarded a PhD in economics
02:13:55  <vraa> therefore, we should invade europe next
02:14:12  <benjamingoodger> ...notably, we have no oil either
02:14:17  <benjamingoodger> or terrorists
02:14:21  <vraa> yeah that's why you guys aren't on the target list yet
02:14:23  <benjamingoodger> we do, however, have more money than the US
02:14:27  <benjamingoodger> much more
02:14:28  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, britain is an OPEC state
02:14:33  <vraa> lol that's fine
02:14:49  <Eddi|zuHause> and austria was self-supplying with oil for a long time
02:15:00  <benjamingoodger> we have .1trn more than you
02:15:04  <vraa> i can't wait until oil is no longer relevant to politics
02:15:08  <vraa> i say 50 years
02:15:10  <benjamingoodger> *cracks knuckles*
02:15:16  <vraa> maybe less, if we can start consuming faster
02:16:05  <benjamingoodger> hmm
02:16:09  <Eddi|zuHause> germans just sit on their technology to transform coal into fuel ;)
02:16:18  <vraa> coal is nasty
02:16:18  <benjamingoodger> europe + japan > US by trn
02:16:28  <Eddi|zuHause> (developed in the 1940's)
02:16:39  <benjamingoodger> *cough*'20s*cough*
02:17:08  <benjamingoodger> I nearly still remember the formula...
02:17:13  <Eddi|zuHause> "developed" != "invented"
02:17:18  <benjamingoodger> pah!
02:17:39  <Eddi|zuHause> "developed" meaning in significant production use
02:17:59  <benjamingoodger> of course, the US could reduce its oil consumption staggeringly quickly by switching to <2.0litre 4cyl diesel engines on new cars
02:18:08  <vraa> reduce?
02:18:10  <vraa> no it must increase
02:18:12  <benjamingoodger> well
02:18:13  <benjamingoodger> no
02:18:13  <vraa> same with europe
02:18:15  <benjamingoodger> halve
02:18:20  <vraa> high oil prices are a good thing
02:18:28  <benjamingoodger> er, actually, they're not.
02:18:34  <vraa> what are you smoking man
02:18:41  <vraa> the sooner we can run out of oil the better
02:18:47  <benjamingoodger> 0.0
02:18:57  <Eddi|zuHause> fuel prices dropped by 30% in the past few weeks ;)
02:19:01  <benjamingoodger> see, this is why texas is not known for its economists
02:19:09  <vraa> oil is not going to last forever
02:19:22  <vraa> i tell many republican friends this "you cannot drill yourself out"
02:19:33  <vraa> energy should not be reduced
02:19:36  <benjamingoodger> well, it's cheaper at this point
02:19:36  <Eddi|zuHause> you do realise that oil is not only used for fuel
02:19:43  <vraa> civilizations can be based entirely on how much energy they consume
02:19:51  <benjamingoodger> whoops, didn't mean to say that
02:19:52  <benjamingoodger> yes...
02:19:55  <Eddi|zuHause> and now go counting all objects in your house that consist of plastics
02:20:13  <vraa> plastics are chosen because of ease of manufacturing
02:20:22  <benjamingoodger> ...what?
02:20:23  <vraa> that's not a big deal, i believe in creative destruction
02:20:32  <benjamingoodger> they're chosen for their unique properties
02:20:38  <vraa> and ease of manufacturing
02:20:46  <vraa> that's what design for manufacturing says
02:20:53  <benjamingoodger> they're irreplaceable
02:21:11  <benjamingoodger> besides, have you tried making steel without coal? it's quite difficult, I can assure you!
02:21:16  <benjamingoodger> also glass.
02:21:20  <vraa> coal will run out too
02:21:25  <vraa> all of these are finite
02:21:34  <benjamingoodger> we know this
02:21:44  <benjamingoodger> I'm just a little staggered that you think it's somehow beneficial
02:23:11  <vraa> higher oil prices will drive growth in alternative sources
02:23:33  <benjamingoodger> not really...
02:23:53  <vraa> you should've seen the crap going on a few months ago
02:24:00  <vraa> people wanted oil execs head on pikes
02:24:06  <vraa> tesla was getting major attention
02:24:16  <benjamingoodger> indeed
02:24:22  <vraa> chrysler was unveiling 2 electric vehicles, chevy was being critcized about the volt
02:24:24  <vraa> then oil prices dropped
02:24:26  <benjamingoodger> when the tesla is available outside california, be sure to tell me
02:24:28  <vraa> and no one gives a shit anymore
02:24:40  <vraa> tesla is an example of the growth i'm talking about
02:24:43  <benjamingoodger> see, this is the most infuriating thing about fucking americans
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02:25:09  <benjamingoodger> the instant gas prices hit /gal, which incidentally is a third of the price it is here, you all swoon for hybrids that do 45mpg
02:25:12  <vraa> they have 5 second long attention spans?
02:25:21  <vraa> yeah and when they go back down, back to the SUVs
02:25:29  <benjamingoodger> no! that's not the point!
02:25:33  <vraa> it'll come to an end soon, it's a by product of american consumerism
02:25:40  <benjamingoodger> a european diesel does 70mpg and costs half the price of a hybrid
02:25:57  <vraa> diesels are nasty
02:26:03  <vraa> besides, hybrids are the future
02:26:07  <benjamingoodger> bollocks
02:26:15  <benjamingoodger> hybrids are inferior to current diesel technology
02:26:19  <vraa> yeah currently
02:26:26  <benjamingoodger> they're not the future, they're somewhere in the distant past
02:26:38  <vraa> diesel hybrids would be nice
02:26:41  <vraa> i think trains are that way
02:26:57  <Eddi|zuHause> hybrids do not pose any significant advantage over pure fossil fuel engines
02:26:57  <vraa> once batteries or whatever are more advanced, then hybrids will become all electrics
02:27:02  <benjamingoodger> not in the way you are thinking of
02:27:11  <vraa> hybrids are just a transitionary stage
02:27:21  <benjamingoodger> yes
02:27:28  <vraa> just like capitalism is for socialism
02:27:28  <benjamingoodger> they are, therefore, a pointless marketing stunt
02:27:37  <Eddi|zuHause> hybrids have nothing to do with transition
02:27:44  <benjamingoodger> do you mean regulated capitalism?
02:27:50  <benjamingoodger> socialism has been tried, and failed, failed badly
02:27:53  <vraa> no, technological socialism
02:27:55  <vraa> robots can be slaves
02:27:59  <vraa> and it's a lot less immoral
02:28:35  <Eddi|zuHause> how does slavery fit with your impression of what socialism is supposed to be?
02:29:01  <benjamingoodger> ..yes, that's a good point
02:29:10  <vraa> i dont think they were tied together
02:29:17  <benjamingoodger> ...good
02:29:34  <vraa> unless you wantt o count robots as a "race"
02:29:36  <vraa> which is dumb
02:29:45  <benjamingoodger> quite
02:29:50  <Eddi|zuHause> besides, robots were introduced years ago, and all they did for "socialism" was lowly edjucated workers protesting that they'll lose their jobs
02:29:57  <vraa> it'd be nice if all work was done by robots
02:30:13  <benjamingoodger> you've clearly never been to japan
02:30:26  <benjamingoodger> by the way, in what measure are diesels nasty?
02:30:42  <vraa> i've heard japanese culture is so xenophobic, they would rather have robots rather than fillipina maids
02:30:51  <vraa> nasty doesn't mean disgusting, nasty just means unacceptable
02:30:59  <vraa> diesels are popular, in trucks
02:30:59  <benjamingoodger> ¬.¬
02:31:04  <benjamingoodger> why are they unacceptable, then?
02:31:22  <vraa> probably something that happened in ghte 80s
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02:31:33  <vraa> i dunno, diesels were dead before i was aware of my environment
02:31:42  <benjamingoodger> so you don't know
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02:32:00  <Eddi|zuHause> diesels are dead? in which world?
02:32:05  <benjamingoodger> the US
02:32:19  <vraa> the problem i think boils down to a lack of serious competition
02:32:22  <Eddi|zuHause> the number of diesel cars is consistently rising in europe for decades
02:32:23  <vraa> who is going to build a diesel car in america
02:32:28  <vraa> ford and gm are incapable of doing ANYTHING
02:32:36  <vraa> toyota and honda are on the hybrid wagon
02:32:44  <benjamingoodger> actually, Ford Europe produce one of the finest diesels in the world
02:32:56  <vraa> ford europe is the only part of ford that is awake
02:33:04  <benjamingoodger> Opel [GM's euro subsidiary] also produce very, very good diesel engines
02:33:05  <vraa> the rest of ford is dying, dead, or in the process of being shot in the pasture
02:33:13  <benjamingoodger> I'm well aware of this
02:33:18  <vraa> opel the same, there is a reason why a chinese company wants to buy open for 1.6$b
02:34:02  <vraa>
02:34:04  <Eddi|zuHause> opel only still exists for GM to drain germany's car subsidies
02:34:31  <benjamingoodger> hmm
02:34:34  <vraa>
02:34:35  <benjamingoodger> I wouldn't know
02:34:40  <benjamingoodger> but I do know they make good cars
02:34:49  <vraa> maybe in europe
02:34:57  <vraa> in america, american cars suck. hard.
02:35:05  <benjamingoodger> actually, they build them in the US also
02:35:13  <benjamingoodger> you've never heard of Saturn?
02:35:27  <vraa> i have, they make plastic cars
02:35:36  <vraa> one of their commericals had a fat kid run into the side of the car and bounce off
02:35:43  <benjamingoodger> that's Opel's brand in the US
02:35:57  <benjamingoodger> the Saturn Astra is a runaway success in the United Kingdom
02:36:13  <benjamingoodger> and it comes with a really good diesel engine
02:36:27  <benjamingoodger> the Honda Accord and Toyota Corolla also come with really good diesels in the UK
02:36:35  <vraa> and in india too
02:36:45  <benjamingoodger> no doubt
02:36:53  <benjamingoodger> so, overall, there is no excuse for the US not to use diesels
02:37:05  <benjamingoodger> it's even cheaper per gallon
02:37:09  <vraa> i wonder if it's a chicken or the egg situation
02:37:25  <benjamingoodger> I think it's the egg
02:37:57  <benjamingoodger> when gas prices get high enough, diesel infrastructure will start to appear, and people will start buying diesel consumer cars
02:38:18  <vraa> so we go back to 'high gas prices = good'
02:38:30  <vraa> i think at the very minimum, gas prices in usa should equal that of those in UK
02:38:35  <vraa> i heard in UK it's equal to 7$/gal
02:38:44  <benjamingoodger> let me check
02:38:48  <benjamingoodger> it's been plummetting recently
02:38:57  <benjamingoodger> obviously so has the pound relative to the dollar
02:39:19  <benjamingoodger> atm it's /gal
02:39:29  <vraa>
02:39:36  <benjamingoodger> or 90.9p/litre
02:39:47  <benjamingoodger> but it hit £1.16/litre not so long ago
02:40:13  <benjamingoodger> however, considering the recent drops in crude prices, it ought to be around 80p
02:40:23  <vraa> i saw 1.70 something today for regular
02:40:35  <vraa> 2.10 or so for 94 premium/supreme or whatever the top is
02:40:36  <benjamingoodger> $/gal?
02:40:42  <benjamingoodger> NINETY-FOUR?
02:40:46  <benjamingoodger> good GOD
02:40:53  <vraa> 94 octane?
02:41:06  <benjamingoodger> our regular is 95
02:41:07  <vraa> 2.10$/gal for 94 octane
02:41:12  <benjamingoodger> premium is 98
02:41:32  <benjamingoodger> 98 is currently at .90
02:41:50  <benjamingoodger> by christ, you people put dishwater into your cars
02:41:54  <benjamingoodger> no wonder they run so poorly
02:42:05  <glx> .90 is a lot
02:42:12  <Belugas> 75.9/litre in here nice price
02:42:32  <glx> ho it's per gal
02:42:37  <Belugas> cents...
02:42:39  <glx> silly units
02:43:05  <benjamingoodger> glx: £1.06/l
02:43:21  <Belugas> expensive!
02:43:25  <benjamingoodger> that's, what, 1.17 €/l at current exchange rates
02:43:34  <benjamingoodger> that's for premium 98, though
02:43:48  <benjamingoodger> and it's continuing to, well, collapse
02:44:00  <glx> 20 days ago it was 1.241€/l
02:44:09  <Belugas> ho.. true... cheaper price, but crappier quality
02:44:25  <benjamingoodger> mmm
02:45:01  <benjamingoodger> I buy the 95, because I can't afford to buy it at all
02:45:15  <benjamingoodger> as my car is a 1996 petrol engine that gets about 9.5 l/100km
02:45:18  <glx> I buy 98 because the car was designed for 97
02:45:40  <benjamingoodger> ironically, it has "premium 95" stamped on the filler cap ^^
02:46:17  <vraa> really? i think it goes from 84 87 to 91 or 94 octane
02:46:22  <vraa> depending on where you go
02:46:27  <benjamingoodger> good grief
02:46:30  <vraa> race gas is 104 or higher octane, at least here in texas
02:46:40  <Eddi|zuHause> <benjamingoodger> NINETY-FOUR? <- the americans use a different system for determining octane numbers
02:46:48  <benjamingoodger> I think it's a minimum of 95 by law here
02:46:52  <vraa> yeah (R+S)/M or something weird
02:46:52  <benjamingoodger> oh?
02:46:59  <Eddi|zuHause> it's roughly 4 to 5 numbers lower
02:47:01  <glx> well the car was designed for super in 1978 (dunno what octane it was at that time) but it's a '88 model and in 1988 it was 97
02:47:35  <vraa> 87 here is 91-92 for you guys
02:47:54  <benjamingoodger> ah...
02:47:56  <vraa> there is about a 5 point spread
02:48:01  <vraa> so 100 for you guys is 95 for us
02:48:08  <vraa> that's what wikipedia is saying
02:48:13  <benjamingoodger> right
02:48:23  <benjamingoodger> in that case, 98 would be ~93
02:48:25  <benjamingoodger> ok, that's acceptable
02:48:25  <glx> depends on researched octane and real octane IIRC
02:48:41  <benjamingoodger> nonetheless, 84 is ludicrously crappy
02:48:45  <vraa> ~93 would only go in nice cars
02:48:56  <vraa> 84 doesn't exist, sorry
02:48:58  <vraa> 87 is the lowest
02:49:01  <vraa>
02:49:09  <glx> I rememember seeing 97 (87) at the time leaded super was still available
02:49:11  <vraa> usually my gas tation as 87, 89, and 94 i think
02:49:37  <Eddi|zuHause> 95 is the standard in germany nowadays, the 91 one is subsequently phased out
02:49:55  <vraa> i know in germany they take driving and cars seriously
02:49:56  <Eddi|zuHause> started by the fact that they are the same price now ;)
02:50:01  <vraa> i wish america had strict regulation like germany
02:50:06  <glx> 95 is eurosuper :)
02:50:17  <vraa> our roads here are less thick, so they are lesser quality, and our yearly automotive inspections are a joke
02:50:53  <vraa> to obtain a drivers license, you dont even have to drive a car
02:50:57  <glx> everything with wheels and engine is allowed in USA I think
02:51:08  <vraa> pretty much, if not under regular rules, under kit car rules
02:51:47  <benjamingoodger> my father failed his driving test four times
02:52:00  <glx> I needed 3 times to get it
02:52:01  <Eddi|zuHause> well, germany is at the higher end of the "food chain" for cars...
02:52:10  <benjamingoodger> he had a vehicle known as a reliant robin, which was a nasty little three-wheeled van
02:52:23  <glx> Eddi|zuHause: TUV is the stricter
02:52:31  <Eddi|zuHause> cars that get sold because they are not traffic-safe anymore go to eastern europe, africa or south america ;)
02:52:31  <benjamingoodger> this was driveable on a motorcycle license, but you could take your car driving test in it
02:53:10  <benjamingoodger> so my father drove his reliant robin, on his motorcycle license, to the test centre, failed his car driving test in it, and then drove it home again on the motorcycle license
02:53:27  <benjamingoodger> fortunately, that particular loophole has been plugged, and driving tests are now a gruelling ordeal
02:54:01  <benjamingoodger> which made me, passing it first time in May this year, all the more proud ^^
02:54:05  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't understand how you can fail a driving test...
02:54:25  <glx> round about
02:54:30  <Eddi|zuHause> you spend weeks and thousands of euro in training
02:54:30  <benjamingoodger> stalling is an instant fail here
02:54:31  <glx> 2 times :)
02:55:09  <glx> (bad placement and no indicators but the round about was empty)
02:55:14  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, the french kinda overdid it with the roundabouts :p
02:55:29  <benjamingoodger> Eddi|zuHause: you know not the meaning of the phrase "roundabout overuse"
02:55:44  <glx> the magic one?
02:55:59  <benjamingoodger> in britain, we use our invention (the mini-roundabout, which is a white circle on the ground) as a traffic calming measure
02:56:06  <Eddi|zuHause> the abominations in britain do not count ;)
02:56:07  <benjamingoodger> oh, yes, there's also the magic roundabout... *shudder*
02:57:12  <Eddi|zuHause> use of roundabouts has increased here, too... i find them silly...
02:57:37  <glx> better than having to wait for green light
02:57:49  <Eddi|zuHause> if the crossing gets overfull, put a god damn traffic light
02:57:52  <benjamingoodger> oh, we have traffic lights on roundabouts too
02:58:02  <benjamingoodger> don't think we haven't thought of that =P
02:58:06  <glx> here too, it's just silly
02:59:21  <benjamingoodger> our national speed limit is too low as well
02:59:31  <Eddi|zuHause> we have a roundabout here, which was considered the most heavlily used road junction in eastern germany. it had tram lines crossing it on multiple places, completely without traffic regulation
03:00:24  <Eddi|zuHause> now they put the tram lines one level below the road, and put up traffic lights on the entrances. now it is actually safe to cross that junction :p
03:00:30  <benjamingoodger> heh
03:00:56  <Eddi|zuHause> i mean, there were rarely days with less than 3 accidents on that place
03:01:06  <benjamingoodger> 0.0
03:01:59  <Eddi|zuHause> typically tram vs. car
03:02:18  <Eddi|zuHause> and typically the tram won :p
03:02:27  <benjamingoodger> well, of course
03:06:11  <benjamingoodger> hmmm
03:06:21  <benjamingoodger> my dehumidifier seems to be working far too well
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03:06:55  <benjamingoodger> I wouldn't have thought the air in this room would even contain a litre of water, let alone be extractable over the course of twenty minutes
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03:11:05  <Eddi|zuHause> just do the maths, if your room has 12m², and is 2,5m high, how many liters of air is that? and when you derive 1l of water from that, how high is the difference in humidity levels?
03:13:59  <Eddi|zuHause> you'd need to figure in the average density of air, though
03:14:50  <benjamingoodger> you know, I really can't be bothered :P
03:15:00  <benjamingoodger> besides, the room isn't a sealed unit
03:15:05  <benjamingoodger> and neither is it rectangular
03:17:54  <Eddi|zuHause> well, 12m² is an average room in a central european home, i just gave that as a general figure ;)
03:18:11  <benjamingoodger> very well
03:18:31  <Eddi|zuHause> you certainly don't have your window wide open at these kinds of temperatures ;)
03:18:34  <glx> 2.5m height is not ;)
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03:19:01  <benjamingoodger> no, but the door is open
03:19:22  <benjamingoodger> the height may well be about 220cm or there abouts...
03:19:38  <Eddi|zuHause> and you have oceanic climate, so you have higher average humidity levels anyway
03:20:08  <Eddi|zuHause> 2,20m? you live in the cellar or something?
03:20:11  <benjamingoodger> I think it's called "maritime"
03:20:16  <benjamingoodger> no, it's a bungalow
03:20:26  <benjamingoodger> hang on, I will try and find a tape measure
03:20:31  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd get claustrophobic in that kind of narrow space
03:20:53  <Eddi|zuHause> my room is 2,60m iirc
03:21:12  <glx> mine is 1,10 to 2,20 IIRC
03:21:27  <benjamingoodger> the room is 260cm tall
03:23:24  <benjamingoodger> and I'm 185...
03:23:43  <benjamingoodger> damn, I always wanted to be a bit taller than that
03:24:13  <Eddi|zuHause> i barely fit through regular doors
03:24:42  <benjamingoodger> lucky you
03:25:00  <benjamingoodger> I've learned to time my walking so that my head is at its lowest point when going under doors, to avoid hitting it on the frame
03:26:32  <Eddi|zuHause> funny, i've learned to just drag my head in :)
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03:27:35  <benjamingoodger> heh
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06:34:05  <AgentLeMan> morning...
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06:55:19  <Cookiej> Hey
06:55:35  <AgentLeMan> hehey
06:56:02  <Cookiej> Hey i'm setting up dedicated and uhm working on MoTD for it how do i create script :P? where do i start
06:56:59  <Cookiej> Tryed with Wordpad ofc didn't work gave errors importing so i ghues i'm messing up some cmds hope you can help me a bit maybe provide the first few lines to start?
06:58:19  <Cookiej> think it's a bit 2 early :P
06:58:26  <AgentLeMan> cookie, read here from 08:54	 on
07:01:05  <Cookiej> Thxz
07:01:23  <AgentLeMan> a pleasure :o)
07:08:59  <Cookiej> forwarded me to
07:09:51  <AgentLeMan> hm, yes, that may be easier to read too
07:14:01  <Cookiej> not realy :P though i should look for an auto Pilot
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07:49:05  * Cookiej slaps Cookiej around a bit with a large trout
07:49:30  * AgentLeMan slaps trout around a bit with a very large Cookiej
07:49:33  <AgentLeMan> ;o)#
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08:41:14  <Fantasya> g' day
08:41:32  <Fantasya> what command for relogin to channel?
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08:54:39  <davis_> 09:42… Fantasya: what command for relogin to channel?
08:54:42  <davis_> /hop ?
08:55:28  <petern> /part then /join ? heh
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08:57:18  <davis_> /hop
08:57:19  <davis_> does
08:57:23  <davis_> the same , with one command
08:58:12  <petern> or /cycle
08:58:35  <petern> those are client commands that do the same as /part then /join, heh
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09:01:46  <petern> Rubidium, do we still offer torrent downloads?
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09:02:41  <davis_> didnt know /cycle
09:02:42  <davis_> nice
09:03:42  <mrfrenzy> what do you accomplish by rejoining the channel?
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09:04:04  <petern> not much
09:04:29  <davis_> checking topic mostly , or ganining back autoflags
09:05:59  <mrfrenzy> try /topic
09:06:09  <mrfrenzy> and for gaining your flags talk to chanserv
09:06:30  <yorick> he doesn't have flags
09:08:29  <yorick> <-- fixes transfer share on with oilrigs :)
09:13:26  <petern> ouch
09:14:40  <yorick> ?
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09:19:46  <Wolf01> hello
09:21:14  <yorick> hello
09:21:26  <yorick> petern: what's ouch?
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09:25:00  <petern> all that extra space for just one corner case
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09:25:52  <petern> do you really need a feeder share for each company?
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09:26:07  <yorick> petern, it's part of the IS patch, too
09:26:40  <petern> wouldn't just adding a company field work?
09:26:52  <petern> hmm
09:26:59  <yorick> not really, no
09:27:01  <petern> not that i've thought it through :p
09:27:21  <yorick> it wouldn't be fair if the company delivering the cargo would get all the feeder share, would it?
09:28:24  <yorick> and if the IS patch hits trunk, it isn't so much of a corner case
09:28:58  <petern> so nearly quadrupling the size of a cargopacket doesn't seem a problem to you?
09:29:42  <yorick> your alternative?
09:29:57  <yorick> some feeder_share pool?
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09:35:55  <George> In TTDP it is not allowed to build bank over historical (protected) building. In OTTD bank can be build over any town building. Is it untended?
09:36:37  <yorick> does openttd even know protected buildings?
09:36:48  <George> IMHO yes
09:36:55  <yorick> then it's untended
09:36:57  <petern> it does, so i guess that bit of them got forgotten
09:37:09  <petern> untended :o
09:37:28  <George> Should I create a bugreport?
09:37:37  <petern> yeah
09:38:45  <Doorslammer> We should really rename that to "untended buggerport"
09:41:05  <Gekz> unfunny
09:41:30  <Gekz> dont mock the non-english speakers
09:41:39  <Gekz> or I get to correct everything TrueBrain says
09:41:42  <Gekz> and that's lots.
09:42:38  <George> Strange, I can't reproduce it. Now get error that town refuses to do it. I have to do more tests :(
09:43:47  <yorick> George, I looked at the code recently, AFAIK it is allowed
09:44:12  <yorick> but maybe it can't clear the square the house is on
09:44:31  <George> Well, should I create a bug report even if I can't reproduce it myself?
09:45:01  <yorick> no :p
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09:46:56  <yorick> petern, if you can come up with a solution to the feeder shares, please make it so that it's IS-compatible :)
09:47:34  <George> Well, I'll report it as feature request, not a bug
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09:48:20  <Fantasya> <davis_> /hop ?
09:48:21  <Fantasya> thx
09:48:27  <yorick> it everyone going to try out /cycle or /hop now?
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09:53:49  <Fantasya> brigada :D
09:57:17  <Fantasya> chernyj bumer
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10:13:59  <yorick> how do I get the front engine of a train?
10:14:57  <petern> v->First()
10:15:57  <yorick> thanks :)
10:15:57  <Rubidium> petern: I don't think the torrents survived the move and torrents aren't that useful anymore either
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12:46:19  <appe> i really, really need to work out today
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13:08:47  <CIA-5> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14603 /trunk/src/cheat_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#2422]: the company ID is off-by-one w.r.t. to the rest of the GUI in the cheat window.
13:09:56  <Gekz> Win.
13:10:03  <Gekz> proves how many people cheat
13:10:04  <Gekz> lol
13:10:07  <Gekz> and tha'ts not many
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13:28:04  <Patrick> lemme guess, that's a year-zero bug
13:31:43  <Gekz> lol.
13:33:01  <Fantasya> how to enthuse idiot?
13:33:23  <yorick> chuck norris?
13:33:57  <Fantasya> no no
13:34:14  <yorick> yes
13:34:14  <Fantasya> just trooper idiot
13:34:21  <yorick> :)
13:34:36  <Fantasya> I know all facts :)
13:34:53  <yorick> If you have five dollars and Chuck Norris has five dollars, Chuck Norris has more money than you.
13:35:16  <Fantasya> :D
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13:41:08  <frosch123> hello glx, would you mind adding "chuck" and "norris" to your script?
13:41:46  <Rubidium> frosch123: just /ignore the idiots; works perfectly fine
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13:42:28  <glx> it's not like a command
13:46:00  <yorick> The First rule of Chuck Norris is: you do not talk about Chuck Norris.
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13:47:10  <George> Rubidium: FS 2420. Savegame uploaded. even the one after before crash
14:07:54  <dihedral> George, "the one after before crash" <- that is really muddled :-P
14:09:02  <George> I've only built a bank and saved a game
14:10:09  <George> after means after I built a bank. Before crash means before crash. How should I say it?
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14:32:14  <appe> :o
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15:12:28  <MarwolTuk> hello all
15:12:55  <yorick> hello
15:14:39  * MarwolTuk wounders about how hard it woud be to write a patch for openttd
15:14:49  <Jango> not very
15:14:57  <Alberth> If you know C++
15:15:10  <Jango> and can follow instructions on the wiki
15:16:16  <MarwolTuk> c++ shodn't be a real problem... so i'll have a look to the wiki
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15:17:04  <yorick> is there any widget type with an image, but without button?
15:18:18  <Vikthor> out of my head - does president picture have a special widget type?
15:18:26  <Hirundo> Do you want a button look, a button behaviour or neither of them?
15:19:38  <yorick> I don' t want the look or the the behaviour
15:19:42  <yorick> I just want an image
15:20:35  <yorick> Vikthor, the company manager face uses DrawSprite
15:20:41  <glx> yorick: images are panel where you draw an image by hand
15:20:52  <MarwolTuk> bevore i start codeing - is there already a posibility to show cachement-areas of already build (pasanger) stations? i think this feature would be cool if you try to set up a local transportation system inside a city...
15:21:26  <Rubidium> people have attempted making such a feature
15:21:27  <Alberth> yorick: draw the image  yourself in OnPaint() method
15:21:28  <frosch123> I have a small patch around that does that.
15:21:32  <yorick> ok :)
15:21:57  <frosch123> I needed it to debug a silly ottdcoop savegame, as I was totally lost, where they had stationwalked to.
15:22:04  <frosch123> And I believe they were too :p
15:24:43  <frosch123> MarwolTuk: most likely it does not apply anymore
15:25:07  <frosch123> and of course it does not have a proper gui, as it was only for debugging :)
15:25:43  <MarwolTuk> ok, i'll look at it, and maybee i'll fix that bouth points ;-)
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15:34:49  <gynter> hellöö
15:36:59  <Alberth> has anybody else experimented with 'make -j2' to speed up compilation? Results are quite nice, 1m20s build-time instead of 2m22
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15:38:06  <yorick> what does -j2 do?
15:38:23  * frosch123 is on single core
15:38:24  <Alberth> it runs 2 compilation jobs
15:38:29  <yorick> oh, nice :)
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15:39:17  <Alberth> or rather, n compilation jobs in parallel with -jn
15:39:25  <Eddi|zuHause> if you have n cores, the typical suggestion is to run 2n-1 jobs
15:39:53  <petern> i use -j8
15:40:05  <yorick> eddi, so frosch should use 0?
15:40:11  <yorick> hm, no
15:40:22  * yorick didn't think
15:40:25  <Rubidium> assuming you follow that suggestion... you've got a quad core CPU and a Celeron?
15:40:30  <Eddi|zuHause> 2*1-1=0? good, i have to remember that
15:40:51  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: for a dual-core CPU, you'd then still have 1 compile job
15:40:53  <petern> 2*(1-1) ;)
15:41:11  <Eddi|zuHause> and beat up my math teacher from elementary school :p
15:41:32  <yorick> Alberth, yes, because 2*2-1 = 1
15:42:05  <Alberth> argh, I should trust my brain with these simple computations :P
15:42:21  <Alberth> +not
15:42:33  <yorick> I made the same mistake with 1
15:42:46  <Eddi|zuHause> neither with these simple typing and sentence forming jobs ;)
15:42:57  <Alberth> ack
15:43:29  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe you should just do away completely with this rubbish brain of yours
15:44:57  <Alberth> why? I am having much fun with it
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15:47:57  <CIA-5> OpenTTD: frosch * r14604 /trunk/src/ (industry_cmd.cpp station_cmd.cpp station_func.h): -Codechange: Simplify a function and rename it, and fix some comments.
15:53:23  <Ammler> will the new compile farm ever become OS?
15:54:00  <Ammler> or is it already? And i just didn't find the source?
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15:56:47  <CIA-5> OpenTTD: frosch * r14605 /trunk/src/newgrf_house.cpp: -Fix (r9315): When callback 1E fails, use the standard random colour.
15:57:57  <Ammler> frosch123: as you working on special strings, are you aware of that?
15:58:13  <Ammler> oh no, sorry :-)
15:58:25  <frosch123> I am working on special strings?
15:58:34  <Ammler> yeah, forget it.
15:59:21  <frosch123> and that is a ttdp screenshot
15:59:31  <Ammler> doesn't matter
15:59:41  <Ammler> the problem is on both.
16:00:18  <Ammler> that is why I didn't bugreport it.
16:03:26  <CIA-5> OpenTTD: frosch * r14606 /trunk/src/ (6 files):
16:03:26  <CIA-5> OpenTTD: -Codechange: Unify usage of PALETTE_MODIFIER_TRANSPARENT and PALETTE_MODIFIER_COLOR in spritelayout drawing.
16:03:26  <CIA-5> OpenTTD: -Fix [FS#2419]: The modifiers were not applied in all cases.
16:04:50  <yorick> frosch is on a commit spree :)
16:09:53  <frosch123> George: I need "ECS(George)\ECSHousew.grf"
16:11:24  <George> frosch123: ?
16:12:03  <frosch123> why does google not know that site?
16:12:34  <George> Ask google :)
16:13:10  <yorick> page not found?
16:14:18  <George> It's a hosting by Owen Rudge
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16:14:41  <fjb> Never trust google...
16:15:03  <George> Works fine here
16:15:43  <yorick> I forgot the (George)/
16:16:04  <George> so, does it work?
16:16:08  <frosch123> yes
16:16:34  <George> and what happens when you run "after" save?
16:18:12  <gynter> where did the spoon go?
16:19:13  <gynter> sorry, wrong window.
16:19:20  <gynter> hmm, there should be Refresh all button...
16:19:47  <gynter> why Find Server leaves some servers as IP only?
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16:21:44  <gynter> bah, that 64x64 server is offline :(
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16:25:37  <yorick> gyner, because it can't reach them
16:25:50  <yorick> gynter, refresh all = press find server again
16:26:41  <gynter> hmm, but if I press Find Server it still doesn't find those servers with shown as IP, but if I refresh each of them separately it finds
16:31:44  <gynter> how much resources do I need to run a dedicated server (0.6.3) with 64x64 map on *nix?
16:32:52  <yorick> not much
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16:35:47  <frosch123> George: when you use the "land area information" tool, you can see the "coordinates" of every tile. where does the bank has to be build?
16:36:42  <George> 372-360-3
16:39:52  <frosch123> let me guess, that is a "protected" building?
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16:41:53  <George> I do not know, It is from NA city set
16:42:12  <frosch123> as it works with "magic bulldozer" enabled :)
16:42:49  <George> Sorry, what did I do wrong?
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16:43:35  <frosch123> nothing, but I was confused as I clicked exactly that tile before. But I cleared the sight a bit before :)
16:44:38  <George> I use transparency mode (Ctrl-x) on
16:45:09  <frosch123> but then I cannot see which houses are multitile houses in most cases
16:47:01  <George> May it cause this bug?
16:47:50  <frosch123> well, currently it seems that clearing the tile is allowed, when the industry tests whether it can clear all tiles. but clearing is forbidden, when the industry is finally build
16:48:07  <frosch123> I guess current_player is different
16:50:27  <Wolf01> [17:46:18] <frosch123> but then I cannot see which houses are multitile houses in most cases <- I have a suggestion for that problem: make the building milky when you are trying to destroy one tile which belong to it, like making it transparent but white
16:51:56  <frosch123> oh, _current_company of course
16:52:00  * frosch123 feels like belugas
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16:58:29  <frosch123> ok, the problem is, when the first tile is cleared by the bank, the town rating drops so that clearing the second tile is not allowed anymore
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17:21:44  <George> :) :)
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17:33:56  <frosch123> George: FS#2421: the callback fails
17:35:36  <George> Why?
17:35:59  <frosch123> in that case I have to look in the grf
17:36:20  <George> You have it (ECSHousew.grf)
17:38:53  <frosch123> maybe there are more than two of those hotels, or the hotel is older than 32 years?
17:41:39  <George> its 32 in HEX, so 50 years. Started in 1950-th, and it's 1955-th in game. So they should be at most 5 years old
17:44:25  <frosch123> ah, alright, the house is 255 years old (clamped) and there are 671354882 houses of the same id
17:44:53  <George> SHOCK! But why?
17:45:20  <frosch123> well, obviously those numbers are wrong, esp. the second :)
17:45:40  <frosch123> I just wonder, whether it is just my debugging output that is that wrong :x
17:46:26  <George> Hope you can fix it B)
17:46:50  <frosch123> oh, wait, there is more stuff stored in that variable
17:47:58  <George> but I test it with 81, so the other 3 bytes should be cut
17:48:05  <frosch123> so two houses
17:48:14  <George> Correct :)
17:48:26  <George> But 255 years not
17:50:30  <frosch123> err, is the house completed?
17:50:54  <George> What do you mean?
17:51:05  <frosch123> is it in its final construction stage?
17:51:18  <frosch123> or is it just build
17:52:58  <frosch123> yes, it is
17:53:09  <George> At least land area information tool says thet they are not under construction.
17:53:16  <Qball> can I make openttd auto-signal a whole line
17:53:20  <Qball> (including corners and stuff
17:53:52  <George> frosch123: and? Shouldn't it be 0, not 255?
17:53:58  <frosch123> Qball: build one signal (usually a one way signal), press ctrl and drag the signal in the wanted direction
17:54:10  <Qball> thx
17:54:18  <Qball> I knew I hit it by accident a few times
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18:43:40  <CIA-5> OpenTTD: translators * r14607 /trunk/src/lang/ (afrikaans.txt finnish.txt hungarian.txt norwegian_bokmal.txt):
18:43:40  <CIA-5> OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2008-11-22 18:44:20
18:43:40  <CIA-5> OpenTTD: afrikaans - 28 changed by burgerd (28)
18:43:40  <CIA-5> OpenTTD: finnish - 65 fixed, 17 changed by UltimateSephiroth (82)
18:43:41  <CIA-5> OpenTTD: hungarian - 86 changed by oklmernok (86)
18:43:41  <CIA-5> OpenTTD: norwegian_bokmal - 4 fixed by brygge_2 (4)
18:47:43  <frosch123> George: FS#2421: Your savegame is totally screwed. I cannot reproduce it in a new game, can you? Else I am going to blame that you replaced the newgrf with a newer on in game.
18:49:04  <frosch123> i.e. the house cannot resolve a valid housespec
18:51:11  <George> frosch123: What does it mean Screwed? Reproduce? It is hard to control house change, because it is totally random. The fact that I caught it is a luck. Replace the GRF? IMHO, the checksum is saved in the save, isn't it? So you could see the change. And what about age = 255?
18:51:48  <George> What does it mean "the house cannot resolve a valid housespec"?
18:52:24  <George> BTW, I'd would like to ask one more question. Do uypu plan to disallow houses to be moved during construction? I mean when I do landscape test for northern tile I want to be sure to get northern tile there when the house is built.
18:54:41  <frosch123> for your last question: that is part of grf version 8, but IIRC in fact it is already the case for ottd
18:56:11  <George> Are you sure for OTTD?
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19:00:54  <frosch123> well, the code looks like it. so you can test it. but it would not conform to newgrf specs version 7
19:01:22  <George> I understand. Starting testing
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19:48:34  <CIA-5> OpenTTD: frosch * r14608 /trunk/src/town_map.h: -Fix (r9315): Return the current year as construction year for unfinished houses.
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20:21:17  <Sacro> shouldn't power stations state power generation in the industries list?
20:23:47  *** Eddi|zuHause [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:24:53  <petern> no
20:29:36  <frosch123> George: Ok, I found the problem, why the age is 255
20:29:43  <frosch123> No idea how to fix it though :(
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20:31:10  <George> frosch123: could you explain it in general?
20:31:55  <frosch123> you know that TTDP sets the minimum availability year to 1920 if there are no houses before 1930?
20:32:24  <frosch123> that is to make sure, that there are houses available when the landscape is created
20:32:25  <George> Read it somewhere. And?
20:33:11  <frosch123> as ottd supports dates before 1920, it sets the minimum year of the earliest available houses to year 0
20:33:27  <frosch123> so your house is available from year 0 onwards
20:33:34  <frosch123> until 1960 or so
20:34:01  <George> And how should affect the house that is on the map?
20:34:02  <frosch123> however, the builddate is stored using 8 bits in the map array. so build dates after the year 255 cannot be represented
20:34:48  <frosch123> so effectivly all houses of that type (and a lot others) were built in the year 255
20:35:00  <frosch123> so in 1950 it is far older than 255 years :)
20:36:02  <George> You mean that map generation happens in year 0?
20:36:39  <frosch123> well, you can interpret it like that
20:36:51  <frosch123> but no
20:37:16  <Eddi|zuHause> the joy of extending ranges of certain variables :p
20:37:55  <frosch123> it analyses the availability years of all houses, so if there are 5 houses available from 1930 and 7 available from 1931, it will set the availability years of the earliest 5 houses to year 0
20:38:41  <frosch123> so basically if a house belongs to the earliest available houses, its age variable does not work
20:41:08  <George> Confused :( Does it mean that if I provide 5 houses for the pre 1930 period, other houses would work correctly?
20:41:58  <frosch123> when those do not use the age variable, then yes
20:42:50  <frosch123> you can also set the date of your hotel to 1931 :)
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20:44:56  <George> But what would happen to the other hoses, which are introduced in 1930? Also, it would not allow map generator to build the hotel in 1930. That's not good.
20:45:33  <frosch123> when you start the game in 1930 then no, but when you start in 1931 then yes
20:48:09  <George> and if I start in 1920?
20:48:21  <frosch123> then no hotels
20:49:07  <frosch123> you can add some houses to start from 1850. then you could allow the hotel to start in 1851
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21:47:20  <Rubidium> DaleStan: does it make sense when a NewGRF contains "unused" data in real sprites; unused meaning that a sprite in the NewGRF is e.g. 584 bytes long (576 without header) with compression 1 when the sprite itself is according the metadata 36 (xsize) by 12 (ysize), thus only 432 bytes (without header)? Happens in at least NARS 2.0b6w.
21:48:42  <Rubidium> or should we just ignore the 144 wasted bytes instead of triggering a "handle corrupt sprite" routine?
22:03:26  <appe> dudes
22:03:40  <appe> how many twists and turns can a train actually handle
22:03:51  <valhalla1w> infinite. it just slows down
22:03:54  *** valhalla1w is now known as valhallasw
22:04:00  <appe> im getting trains here who gets "lost" just because they wait at over thirty places per line
22:04:04  <appe> ok
22:04:08  <appe> i guess im doin something awfully wrong.
22:04:16  <valhallasw> wait?
22:04:22  <appe> yes, lights.
22:04:28  <appe> signals*
22:04:34  <valhallasw> so why are they red?
22:05:06  <appe> other trains pass by.
22:05:28  <valhallasw> erm
22:05:32  <valhallasw> could you post a savegame?
22:06:05  <appe> not atm
22:06:18  <appe> ill hand it to you later.
22:06:28  *** vraa [] has joined #openttd
22:06:37  * benjamingoodger has idea for his next book
22:06:55  <Rubidium> appe: with YAPF trains that cannot ever reach their destination without reversing will get "lost". With the old pathfinder trains get lost if they can't reach their destination within a given amount of time
22:07:07  <benjamingoodger> Adventures in Google Reader --- How To Set It To The Wrong Language, Such That You Cannot Change It Back Again
22:07:21  <appe> ah, ok.
22:08:53  <valhallasw> benjamingoodger: click settings (first link right of email address), first selector?
22:09:04  <benjamingoodger> yeah, I found that eventually
22:09:12  <benjamingoodger> just by clicking everything in turn... ¬.¬
22:09:50  <valhallasw> -_-
22:11:53  *** Fantasya [~a@] has joined #openttd
22:12:13  <Fantasya> youtube live after 2 hours and 46 mins!!!!!
22:12:15  <Fantasya> :))))))))
22:12:36  <Fantasya> omg waiting waiting. want to sleep ://
22:21:15  *** Antdovu [] has joined #openttd
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22:28:46  <Wolf01> does eGRVTS supports both ECS and Pikka's sets?
22:29:44  *** frosch123 [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
22:30:59  <valhallasw> appe: savegame ready yet? :P
22:33:38  <appe> no, but i can take a screenshot. .D
22:33:55  <DaleStan> Rubidium: I don't know. Have you asked patchman about that?
22:34:35  <appe> "Screenshot failed!"
22:34:35  <appe> woot.
22:35:27  <Rubidium> DaleStan: no, he's in #tycoon?
22:36:04  <DaleStan> Yep. Or lurking it, anyway.
22:36:55  <appe>
22:36:56  <appe> :>
22:37:05  <appe> (it works now)
22:37:27  <appe> i had forgot to put and end signal to a single rail
22:37:31  <appe> and it fucked it all up
22:37:33  <benjamingoodger> good GOD
22:37:55  <Antdovu> that must be FAST ;)
22:38:08  <appe> :>
22:38:13  <Antdovu> the amount of tracks is the real bottleneck here
22:38:19  * Rubidium says something with barbeque...
22:38:23  <appe> well, yeah.
22:38:27  <appe> its just fun
22:38:27  <appe> :D
22:38:33  <appe> and its like that all over the map
22:38:43  <appe> i only have about ten industries left
22:38:45  <valhallasw> zomg 90-degree-turns :P
22:38:47  *** vraa [] has joined #openttd
22:38:49  <appe> 1024x1024
22:39:34  <Rubidium>,%201st%20Nov%202337.png <- that's much more busy ;)
22:39:58  <appe> holy cow.
22:40:12  <appe> well hey, you got some money.
22:40:14  <appe> :EEEE
22:40:57  <Rubidium> a 128x128 map with 1.5 times more transported cargo than OTTDcoop's famous Pile Transport (1024x1024) map
22:41:09  <appe> though, how can that be profitable? how do you get so heavy amounts of stuff to ship?
22:41:13  <appe> aha
22:41:14  <Vikthor> lol at the ships, I gather you are not proponent of introducing ship collision ? :p
22:41:16  <appe> haha
22:41:16  <appe> :D
22:41:38  <appe> OTTDcoop's famous Pile Transport (1024x1024) map?
22:41:39  <Rubidium> not really no ;)
22:42:18  <Antdovu> I am afraid of starting a new openttd game
22:42:37  <Antdovu> it takes forever to play it :P
22:43:05  <benjamingoodger> I have not yet managed to generate a map that works properly for me..
22:44:06  <benjamingoodger> maybe when cargodest comes in it'll be a bit better
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22:45:27  <appe> haha
22:45:28  <Rubidium> appe:
22:47:59  <Fantasya> 2 hours and 12 minutes to YOUTUBE LIVE!!!!
22:48:02  <Fantasya> omg waiting waiting
22:48:11  <benjamingoodger> what on earth is youtube live?
22:48:24  <Fantasya> live broadcast
22:48:29  <Fantasya> concert
22:48:33  <benjamingoodger> ah
22:48:46  <Fantasya>, akon, katy perry
22:48:48  <Fantasya> mythbusters
22:48:49  <Fantasya> etc
22:48:54  <Fantasya> all in LIVE!
22:49:07  <Antdovu> I heard that there was a contest to make an actually good video for youtube
22:49:08  <Fantasya>
22:49:11  <benjamingoodger> I asked what it was, not for a promotional leaflet
22:49:22  <Fantasya> 3 comments per second
22:49:23  <benjamingoodger> thank you for the link
22:49:27  <Fantasya> ;)
22:49:39  <petern> sounds very exciting
22:49:42  <petern> i'm going to bed :D
22:49:46  <Fantasya> lol :D
22:49:47  <benjamingoodger> hehehe
22:50:00  <benjamingoodger> I'm going to design some stationery
22:50:03  <Fantasya> half world will be on youtube after 2 hours
22:50:08  <Antdovu> when I have a need to drop my IQ then I'll be sure to check the comments out
22:50:24  <Fantasya> i think youtube want to make record of guiness
22:50:25  <Fantasya> :D
22:50:55  <Fantasya> 77000 subscribers :O
22:51:38  <Antdovu> is it just me or are you way too excited?
22:52:13  <benjamingoodger> no, it's me too
22:52:14  <benjamingoodger> oh, wait
22:52:17  <benjamingoodger> you're me
22:52:19  <benjamingoodger> damn!
22:52:32  <Eddi|zuHause> no, it's me!
22:52:56  <Fantasya> im very excited
22:52:58  <Fantasya> omg
22:53:02  <Fantasya> :))))))
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22:53:34  <Fantasya> ProfFrink set youtube in ready status
22:53:34  <Fantasya> ;)
22:53:54  *** Prof_Frink [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:53:54  *** ProfFrink is now known as Prof_Frink
22:53:55  <Eddi|zuHause> ok... that's a clear *plonk* for you
22:54:47  * Rubidium agrees with Eddi|zuHause
22:56:07  <Fantasya> omg
22:56:21  <Fantasya> 2-4 comments per seconds about youtube live
22:57:02  <Antdovu> We're Sorry
22:57:02  <Antdovu> Firefox had a problem and crashed. We'll try to restore your tabs and windows when it restarts.
22:57:08  <Prof_Frink> Fantasya: wtfayboa?
22:57:38  <Wolf01> George!
22:58:16  <Fantasya> YouTube Live
22:58:22  <Fantasya> 2 hours and 2 minutes
22:58:24  <Fantasya> left
22:58:44  <Antdovu> crack is bad for you, m'kay?
22:59:16  <Fantasya> 840000 subscribers
22:59:18  <Fantasya> omg
22:59:34  <Fantasya> 15000 subscribers per 8 minutes
22:59:35  <Fantasya> :O
23:00:08  *** [com]buster [] has quit [Quit: Operator, give me an exit]
23:03:25  <benjamingoodger> ...
23:03:39  <benjamingoodger> sodding inkscape with its sodding font handling!
23:03:57  <benjamingoodger> if I type "12" into the font size box, I want the text to be 12pt high, damn it
23:04:40  *** ecke [~ecke@] has quit [Quit: ecke]
23:05:28  <Antdovu> no, you want it to be 12 furlongs high
23:06:26  <benjamingoodger> oh, is that the unit they presume?
23:06:30  <benjamingoodger> that makes sense..
23:06:44  <benjamingoodger> and I'm still no good at graphic design, even with proper font sizes :(
23:07:17  <Antdovu> I'm pretty good at drawing grids
23:07:20  *** Zorn [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
23:07:37  <benjamingoodger> unfortunately there's a plugin for grids
23:07:48  <Antdovu> but mine are unique
23:09:00  <benjamingoodger> why?
23:09:11  <Antdovu> I take space-time distortion into account
23:09:13  <benjamingoodger> do they incorporate curves?
23:09:55  <Antdovu> so yes, they do
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23:10:37  <Antdovu> and sometimes some lines are missing because of quantum effects
23:11:06  <Antdovu> your plugin can't do that, can it? ;)
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23:24:37  <Sacro> !calc 2^7
23:24:40  <Sacro> @calc 2^7
23:24:40  <DorpsGek> Sacro: Error: Something in there wasn't a valid number.
23:24:46  <Sacro> @calc 2**7
23:24:46  <DorpsGek> Sacro: 128
23:24:49  <Sacro> hmm, though as much
23:25:37  <Qball> you need a calc for that?
23:25:51  <Eddi|zuHause> he's Sacro.
23:25:56  <Qball> 2^8 == 256
23:25:58  <Qball> one byte..
23:25:59  <appe>
23:25:59  <Sacro> Qball: hush you :P
23:25:59  <appe> epic.
23:26:05  <appe> steve jobs did it again.
23:26:07  <Sacro> sigh, i hate big/little endian
23:26:09  <Sacro> it confuses me
23:26:12  <Qball> did what again
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23:30:56  <Eddi|zuHause> appe: you do realise that this video is 7 years old?
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23:32:02  <appe> yes
23:32:27  <appe> "again" is for his way of speaking, that could have been.. well, yesterday.
23:33:08  <Eddi|zuHause> i have no idea what you mean by that
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23:33:37  <benjamingoodger> no, me either
23:34:09  <Sacro> return (byte)((msb * 256) + lsb);
23:34:13  <Sacro> now why did i do that...
23:34:47  <Rubidium> because you wanted to determine the effectiveness of your compiler in pruning unneeded instructions?
23:34:52  <Eddi|zuHause> because you did not put a wrapper function for big endian translation, which you actually documented
23:35:12  <Sacro> this file was generated by delphi so it is big endian
23:35:39  <Sacro> Rubidium: what is unneeded?
23:36:06  <Rubidium> the msb, the *, the 256 and the +
23:36:14  <Qball> lol
23:36:28  <Sacro> ?
23:36:30  <Sacro> oh ?
23:36:39  <fjb> :-)
23:37:01  <fjb> (byte) cuts off the shifted msb.
23:37:07  <Sacro> 					byte lsb = breader.ReadByte();
23:37:07  <Sacro> 					byte msb = breader.ReadByte();
23:37:07  <Sacro> 					return (byte)((msb * 256) + lsb);
23:37:12  <Sacro> surely that's correct?
23:37:48  <Rubidium> yes, it's valid C, C++, Java and probably quite a few others too
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23:38:09  <Sacro> I'm using C#
23:38:09  <Eddi|zuHause> doesn't mean it does what you want it to do :p
23:38:10  <Rubidium> whether the behaviour is what you expect is something completely different
23:38:17  <Sacro> I can't add bytes without prefixng (byte_
23:38:19  <fjb> so "(byte)((msb * 256) + lsb) == lsb" if I'm not mistaken.
23:38:22  <Sacro> *(byte)
23:38:54  <Sacro> so it does :o
23:39:19  <Eddi|zuHause> 256 is already larger than any value that a byte could hold
23:39:31  <Eddi|zuHause> that's why this part of the expression is useless
23:39:40  <Sacro> oh crap ><
23:39:47  <Sacro> I need to return a byte array
23:39:50  <Sacro> correct?
23:40:09  <Eddi|zuHause> no, you need to return the next bigger integer type
23:40:09  <Eddi|zuHause> one that is 2 bytes wide
23:40:09  <Rubidium> it all depends on what you want to have
23:41:18  <Sacro> argh crap ><
23:42:11  <SpComb> if you're trying to deal with byte ordering of 16-bit integers, there's probably some ready-made way to handle that
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23:42:18  <Eddi|zuHause> also, since you do bitshifting, you'd rather want to use << and | operators
23:42:29  <appe> :<
23:42:50  <Sacro> 					for (int i = 0; i < 4; i++)
23:42:50  <Sacro> 						toReturn += breader.ReadByte() << (8 * i);
23:42:50  <Sacro> 					return toReturn;
23:42:53  <Sacro> does that seem right?
23:42:55  <Sacro> it seems to workp
23:42:55  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: if you use C# you are not allowed to use those!
23:43:22  <Eddi|zuHause> wtf kind of language disallows bitwise operations?
23:43:34  <benjamingoodger> a really shitty one, obviously
23:43:35  <Sacro> Rubidium: yes you can
23:44:02  <Eddi|zuHause> Sacro: again, i would deem |= more appropriate
23:44:16  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: it's not the language that disallows it, but "you" using the language that disallows it
23:44:19  <Sacro> Eddi|zuHause: eh?
23:45:01  <Rubidium> i.e. if you use C# you won't care about that stuff anyways
23:45:15  <Sacro> i have bitwise
23:45:37  <Eddi|zuHause> well, | does the same as + if the values don't "overlap", but + still checks for carry-over
23:46:05  <Eddi|zuHause> which you can prove (or assert) that it cannot occur
23:46:33  <Wolf01> 'night
23:46:35  <Sacro> hmm, I'm not sure Eddi|zuHause is getting this
23:46:37  <Sacro> night wolf
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23:47:13  <Eddi|zuHause> you have two byte values: UV and WX
23:47:17  <SpComb> Sacro:
23:47:23  <Eddi|zuHause> you want to combine them to a word value UVWX
23:47:38  <Sacro> Eddi|zuHause: Yeah
23:47:44  <Eddi|zuHause> you can do UV*256, so you end up with UV00
23:47:47  <Sacro> well, I think :\
23:47:49  <Eddi|zuHause> then you add WX
23:47:49  <Sacro> ahhh
23:47:52  <Sacro> yus
23:47:54  <Eddi|zuHause> -> UVWX
23:47:56  <Sacro> I think :\
23:48:02  <Sacro> I don't quite understand it myself
23:48:37  <SpComb> Sacro: so use the provided methods
23:48:45  <Eddi|zuHause> in this case, you can also use UV00 | 00WX, since one of the two bits is always 0
23:48:56  <Sacro> SpComb: i've confused myself
23:49:03  <Eddi|zuHause> so UV00 | 00WX == UV00 + 00WX
23:49:19  <Rubidium> and you can confuse Sacro pretty easily
23:49:24  <Sacro> A B-unit holds several truth values or options. It is encoded as an I-unit; the value must be positive. The value is broken into individual bits, with 1 meaning the option is chosen and 0 meaning it is not. The bits are numbered from 0 as the least significant bit. Thus:
23:49:25  <Eddi|zuHause> for all possible values of UV and WX
23:49:43  <Rubidium> just mass-join #tycoon and Sacro'll go nuts
23:49:48  <Sacro> argh no D:
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23:50:01  <Sacro> I like having two seperate channels with different people
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23:51:01  <Eddi|zuHause> Sacro: certainly you once were taught that U | 0 == U
23:51:13  <Sacro> yup
23:51:19  <Sacro> and U & 0 == 0
23:51:28  <SpComb> Sacro: you can use something like BitConverter.ToInt32 and IPAddress.NetworkToHostOrder
23:51:43  <Eddi|zuHause> | and + only produce different output when two bits are 1
23:51:55  <SpComb> I don't do C# myself so I don't know the core libraries, but it seems there's some kind of binary-representation and byte ordering support
23:51:56  <Eddi|zuHause> 1 | 1 == 1, 1 + 1 == 10 [base 2]
23:52:40  <Eddi|zuHause> but it can never happen that two bits are 1 when you are combining bytes in the way you do, as you shift them so far, that the byte values do not overlap
23:57:09  <Sacro> 					byte[] toReturn = new byte[2];
23:57:09  <Sacro> 					toReturn[1] = breader.ReadByte();
23:57:09  <Sacro> 					toReturn[0] = breader.ReadByte();
23:57:09  <Sacro> 					return toReturn;
23:57:29  <Sacro> does that sound better?
23:58:03  <Rubidium> still depends on what you want to do
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23:58:23  <Nite_Owl> Hello all
23:59:46  <Sacro> i'm well confused

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