Log for #openttd on 18th December 2008:
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00:19:46  <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 2**32/3600/24
00:19:46  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 49710.2696296
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02:30:06  <jerker> I added my Transmogrified junction to the wiki;
02:31:27  * fjb almost never needs 4-way junctions.
02:33:01  <benjamingoodger> nice, jerker
02:33:07  <benjamingoodger> a three-way version? :)
02:34:06  * Sacro chokes
02:34:11  <Sacro> beg pardon?
02:36:19  <Yexo> very nice jerker
02:37:05  <jerker> :)
02:37:17  <fjb> How do I go from south west to north east?
02:38:40  <jerker> up a slope, over a bridge, left turn, right turn, through a tunnel?
02:38:45  <benjamingoodger> fjb: straight over, through the bottom-left bridge, merge, then through the tunnel
02:39:11  <fjb> Ah, ok, I see it now.
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07:39:12  <ttd12345> Your TRG1R.GRF file is corrupted or missing! You can find TRG1R.GRF on your transport tycoon deluxe CD-ROM
07:39:21  <ttd12345> i am getting above error
07:39:29  <ttd12345> do u konw anythign about it
07:39:31  <Forked> then you probably need the trg1r.grf file..
07:39:46  <ttd12345> but i m not getting it anywhere
07:40:28  <Forked> and put it in (assuming windows here..) the "my documents\openttd\data\" folder
07:41:02  <ttd12345> also there are same  errors for TRGIR.GRF,TRGCR.GRF ,TRGHR.GRF,TRGTR.GRF,
07:41:15  <Forked> yes, you need those files from the original transport tycoon deluxe game to play openttd
07:41:38  <ttd12345> but where i will get above files so that i can put them in "my documents\openttd\data\" folder
07:41:54  <benjamingoodger>  from the original transport tycoon deluxe game
07:41:57  <ttd12345> is there any way u know
07:42:04  <Forked> buy the original game.. you can probably get it online for  + shipping or something
07:44:16  <dihedral> hihi - i am not saying anything publicly :-D
07:44:23  * dihedral has learned from the last instance
07:44:30  <Forked> you just did.. twice!
07:45:03  <dihedral> Forked, can you see the regards to the 'last instance'?
07:45:14  <Forked> I can, but I refuse to.
07:45:27  <dihedral> shove it up your fuzzy rear end :-P
07:45:34  * dihedral giggles
07:45:38  <benjamingoodger> er
07:45:45  <Forked> dihedral: get enough coffee yet? ;)
07:45:52  <dihedral> no - just arrived at the office
07:46:03  <benjamingoodger> sounds like you've had too much TBH
07:46:22  <Forked> and already giggling? this will be interesting :)
07:46:30  <benjamingoodger> exactly my point
07:46:34  <dihedral> i have 'club-mate' here to drink too
07:46:36  <dihedral> oh my
07:46:58  <Forked> lists a geforce 9400 GT 1GB card under TTD related accessories :)
07:47:10  <dihedral> 20mg caffeine on 100ml
07:47:21  * benjamingoodger had a lovely conversation on #gnucash about the most efficient way to caffeinate
07:47:27  <dihedral> Forked, yes - you can play OpenTTD on the card itself
07:47:53  <benjamingoodger> hmm
07:47:58  <dihedral> leaves the cpu to be dedicated for windows vista
07:48:12  <benjamingoodger> it probably would have more processing power than the CPU of the original target computer for TTD...
07:49:13  <dihedral> :-P
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07:50:04  <Forked> I'm thinking I should install linux again on the gaming computer..
07:51:42  <benjamingoodger> dihedral: windows vista needs a whole GPU to itself also...
07:51:43  <benjamingoodger> never a bad idea
07:51:45  <benjamingoodger> my gaming system has linux running on it atm, actually
07:52:26  <Forked> well my main concern is getting x3: terran conflict running under wine
07:52:37  <Forked> since it's not ported yet :\
07:52:45  <benjamingoodger> quite
07:53:04  <benjamingoodger> for this reason, our friendly IBM overlords have provided us with a reset switch on our PC-compatibles
07:53:31  <Forked> I hate dual boot
07:53:46  <benjamingoodger> I can't see any problem with it
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12:06:53  <TrueBrain> blup
12:07:38  <Forked> so there was some thunder and lightning here earlier
12:07:41  <Rubidium> nice fishy ;)
12:07:41  <Forked> the whole building was shaking
12:07:48  <TrueBrain> cool
12:07:52  <TrueBrain> too bad we missed that
12:08:01  * Forked gets nightmareish flashbacks from school
12:08:30  <Forked> in the fourth grade there was an assignment with a picture of two gold fishes.. and the question was "what does the fish say?" .. I wrote down "blup blup" and moved on..
12:08:43  <Forked> and was informed that no, that was not right .. the two fish were suppose to have an intelligent conversation about something
12:10:15  <TrueBrain> I say you are right
12:10:24  <TrueBrain> "blup blup" is most likely the most intelligent conversation two fish can have
12:11:38  <TrueBrain> SimCity for iPhone .. lol
12:12:15  <Rubidium> the major problem is that even how intelligent the conversation is, there is no transliteration from fishish to the latin alphabet except mapping everything on blup.
12:14:28  <Rubidium> the same happens with Smurf, but to a lesser extent; e.g.: lets smurf today
12:17:57  <Forked> I guess it was one of those "you were suppose to use your imagination, not use it as a shortcut" assignments
12:18:02  <Forked> it still bothers me though :\
12:21:31  <Rubidium> like my (disliked by teacher) tactics for German grammar; when you had a sentence like "D__ Fehler__ hatte d__ Fehler__ gemacht" and you had to fill in the __. Apparantly always making it plural and thus having to learn only 1/4th of the tables and not having to bother about the gender wasn't the intended solution.
12:21:57  <TrueBrain> smart ;)
12:22:43  <Forked> I also had a math thing with a class that was on a trip.. X number of students blablabla bus and train and whatnot..
12:22:54  <Forked> I assumed they were going home to.. so I just doubled my result ..
12:23:02  <Forked> appears they were suppose to stay at the destination forever
12:23:28  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14689 /trunk/config.lib:
12:23:28  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Change: make configure die on commonly made user mistakes, like not having SDL
12:23:28  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: development files or zlib headers installed; you can still compile a dedicated
12:23:28  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: server or a binary without zlib, but you have to explicitly force it.
12:29:59  <TrueBrain> damn, I am still bored :p
12:30:51  <Forked> let me tell you all about my childhood ..
12:30:53  <Forked> joking :p
12:31:06  <TrueBrain> hehe
12:31:06  <Forked> not a very good joke, but at least it was a joke .. not something I was about to do!
12:31:51  <TrueBrain> my keys like 'backspace', 'home', .. etc no longer work ...
12:32:05  <TrueBrain> also, I need to launch 'hald' before running 'slim' or 'kdm', else things go wrong
12:32:06  <TrueBrain> weird ..
12:32:07  * petern ponders the feasibility of this 'non-sea edges' patch
12:32:49  <Rubidium> that patch's size is exploding with the addition of even more IsValidTile checks *all* over the place
12:33:39  <petern> nice
12:34:02  <petern> and thus everything becomes slightly slower
12:34:13  <Rubidium> yup
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12:35:01  <Forked> slow is good, no? gives you time to react :\
12:35:14  <Rubidium> and we'll get months of building X at the edge crashes
12:35:17  <TrueBrain> I agree with Forked :p
12:35:45  <TrueBrain> Rubidium: that holds for any progress .. always a chance on crashes and problems
12:38:13  <Rubidium> true, but this patch breaks assumptions in basically ALL _cmd.cpp files, which is an awful lot of places
12:38:27  <Rubidium> and there isn't quite a way to grep for them
12:38:39  <TrueBrain> so it is a good thing, I say
12:38:45  <TrueBrain> as then finally all those 'assumptions' are removed
12:40:41  <Rubidium> TrueBrain: so effectively you want to remove the MP_VOID at the bottom of the map too?
12:40:49  <TrueBrain> if possible :)
12:41:02  <TrueBrain> but I agree, it shouldn't make things slower :)
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12:42:28  <Rubidium> that's why I proposed adding MP_VOID to the top edges too; then *all* assumptions about the map are still valid and not all the if (IsValidTile(xx)) needs to be done
12:43:01  <Rubidium> resulting in a much smaller diff, much less chance of bugs and a smaller (if existing at all) impact on speed
12:43:24  <TrueBrain> so do that :p
12:43:24  <TrueBrain> haha
12:43:26  <TrueBrain> hi Belugas :)
12:44:02  <TrueBrain> http://www.hyves.korneel-vm.vmware/?module=Layout&action=showMetaTags <- someone made a bad url in Hyves :p Mwhahahaha :)
12:47:59  <petern> bastard, i clicked on that :(
12:48:06  <Forked> .vmware
12:48:08  <Forked> nice tld =p
12:48:10  <TrueBrain> doesn't go to anywhere
12:48:11  <TrueBrain> so ..
13:07:26  <Yexo> Rubidium: as I said before, adding MP_VOID to the top edges removes only a few of the IsValidTile checks, most of them are also needed for the bottom edges
13:08:41  <Yexo> main problem is that quite a lot of functions assume that they are never called with a tile near the edges (because that were water tiles)
13:10:32  <Rubidium> most functions wander only 1 tile away from their own tile, so IsValidTile isn't needed when doing switch (GetTileType(t - 1)) and friends
13:10:37  <Yexo> and adding MP_VOID tiles to the top edges will give problems with older savegames (those can have buoys/ships) at the top edge, so I doubt the patch would become any smaller
13:17:35  <jerkerTaggart> I added my Half Transmogrified Junction to the wiki
13:17:54  <Rubidium> so make freeform map edges a patch setting and disallow changing it in-game: setting disabled -> old behaviour (no free form edges ofcourse), setting enabled -> extra MP_VOID at top of map
13:21:42  <Rubidium> jerkerTaggart: that's just a worse version of the Ultimate 3-way
13:24:28  <petern>
13:25:22  <Rubidium> someone entered "pimk my ride"
13:27:04  <davis-> ^^
13:27:11  <Gekz> lol
13:28:17  <jerkerTaggart> Rubidium; If so it may be removed, however, as far as I can see, it has the same speed on the slow path (5 wagons) and is more compact (covering 20 extra squares vs 38 for the Ultimate 3-way)
13:32:13  <Yexo> Rubidium: I just went over the patch, and if the north edge was made MP_VOID only 11 !! chunks with IsValidTile could be removed
13:32:34  <Forked> way to fuck up a perfectly fine car
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13:43:32  <Yexo> jerkerTaggart: your junction could be made even smaller by moving the rightmost bridge one tile to the top-left
13:44:13  <jong> hi there, I would really like to play some games with cargodest, but on the Multiplayer list there is just one server (Jezekus's cargodest server), which needs to grf's: CS Stations Set - Buildings and CS Stations Set - Platforms & Stops v0.3 alfa. I cannot find these, even after a long search on the forums and the newgrf part of the website. Also, if there are other servers with cargodest on, I'm more than happy to join these.
13:44:31  <jong> s/to/two/
13:45:17  <Ammler> jong:
13:45:42  <jong> Ammler: thank you, I'll check it out
13:46:15  <Ammler> hint: use not english language :-)
13:48:27  <jong> great, I'll use my slavic language skillz ;)
13:57:17  <jong> well, the cargodest server will restart in 2 years
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13:57:34  <jong> so, it'd be fun if more people started together with me
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14:12:06  <Rubidium> Yexo: I count many more
14:13:07  <Yexo> there are a lot more instances of IsValidTile, but not many more that can be removed
14:14:21  <Yexo> on second thought, I didn't count those before IsCompatibleTrainStationTile and they can also be removed
14:15:09  <Ammler> jerkerTaggart: if you set a signal every 2. tile, you need to double b
14:15:16  <Ammler> the bri
14:15:28  <Ammler> ok, doesn't work...
14:16:02  <petern> signals every 2 * train length!
14:16:28  <jerkerTaggart> Yexo: I added a variant so that the similarity with the 4-way will be clearer. Good suggestion to move the bridge, will fix later.
14:17:03  <Rubidium> Ammler: please use English and not German
14:18:33  <Yexo> jerkerTaggart: one point I don't like is that trains going NW-SW block trains going SW-SE (no signal before or after that bridge)
14:18:50  <Ammler> Rubidium: that wasn't german either :P
14:19:13  <Rubidium> so 2. isn't something German?
14:19:23  <Ammler> "the bri" ?
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14:19:40  <Rubidium> Ammler: no, the "2."
14:19:53  <Rubidium> it makes my brain go haywire on parsing the sentence
14:20:32  <Rubidium> "if you get a signal at every 2" doesn't make sense and neither does "tile, you need to double <whatever you tried to write>"
14:20:42  <Ammler> hmm, ah, it should be 2nd or something :-)
14:21:18  <Ammler> that was indeed german, sorry.
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14:23:20  <Ammler> but still it doesn't matter, how big the signal gap is, but it should be the same over the network, imo.
14:23:37  <Yexo> Rubidium: does it make sence to only add MP_VOID tiles to the NW edge?
14:24:39  <Ammler> at least over the same line :-)
14:25:15  <Rubidium> Yexo: only as in really only NW, or NW, SE and SW?
14:25:34  <Yexo> NW, SE and SW, so not to NE
14:25:48  <Yexo> as NE will wrap to the MP_VOID tiles at SW
14:26:51  <Rubidium> true, but OffsetByDir may do -1, -1
14:26:53  <Yexo> another option might be to let GetTileType return MP_VOID for tile >= MapSize()
14:27:12  <Yexo> Rubidium: even that case will always be ok
14:27:24  <Yexo> damn, it won't
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15:19:23  <edeca> With new industries, what causes production to go crazy?  I have a forest producing hundreds of tons a month with lorries picking up the wood, but an iron ore mine that seems to produce almost nothing even though it has 2 huge trains servicing it
15:20:22  <Yexo> most of the time it's % transported last month
15:21:32  <glx> and how grf author decided to react to different things
15:22:43  <Yexo> Rubidium: <- new patch, I've removed a lot of the IsValidTile calls. Instead of creating a row of MP_VOID tiles I've modified GetTileType to return MP_VOID on tiles > MapSize(). That's a hack, but it works to show the size difference in the diffs. This one is 68KiB instead of 85KiB
15:24:01  <Rubidium> with MP_VOID at top you don't need to change the 0s to INVALID_TILE
15:25:07  <Yexo> I know, that's another 15KiB or so (see FS#2454)
15:26:06  <Yexo> if you think that's the way to go I'll implement it
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15:34:40  <petern> 0 -> INVALID_TILE should be done anyway, separately...
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15:35:57  <Yexo> petern: see FS#2454
15:36:32  <petern> is it only stations that use 0?
15:37:01  <Yexo> I haven't found anything else
15:37:32  <Yexo> planes might be using it if they don't have a destination, not sure about that
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16:47:54  <LA> hmm
16:48:18  * LA had a terrible (read: interesting for him, but possibly not worth the effort) idea
16:48:33  <LA> to make a toyland -> christmas conversion :D
16:49:41  <frosch123> just replace the landscape with the arctic one, and add snow to the houses
16:49:52  <LA> no
16:50:00  <LA> to make things like little santas etc. :P
16:50:14  <LA> or atleast GUI conversion to something christmas like
16:50:29  <LA> like forums lol
16:52:18  <LA> but I guess I cba to do it.. and if even I am not, then anyone else is neither
16:55:59  <George__> Is anybody here who can explain me the dependences between animation and CPU usage?
16:56:38  <glx> CPU usage increase with animations
16:56:38  <De_Ghosty> petern!
16:56:46  <De_Ghosty> or glx
16:56:55  <LA> ye
16:56:59  <George__> I've got a question from the user "someone playing TTDPatch or on low spec hardware can avoid loading those 12 sprites and any similar ones in other industries? "
16:57:01  <De_Ghosty> ottd use only like 1 threads?
16:57:04  <LA> he knows that stuff about newGLX
16:57:06  <De_Ghosty> it doesn't use 2 cores..
16:57:18  <De_Ghosty> draw should have it's own personal thread
16:57:35  <petern> feel free to code that
16:57:43  <petern> it's been discussed to death
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16:57:49  <De_Ghosty> and?
16:57:52  <De_Ghosty> where is it!?!?
16:57:53  <glx> De_Ghosty: drawing is not the CPU eater
16:57:53  <De_Ghosty> lol
16:57:57  <De_Ghosty> yes it is
16:58:04  <glx> it never has been
16:58:15  * LA would listen to a dev, when one is speaking...
16:58:16  <De_Ghosty> in openttd coop it is
16:58:45  <LA> yapf and ships are cpu eater lol
16:59:19  <George__> So, I would like to know - would disabling animation stages would help (grf will return the same sprite for every animation stage)
17:00:05  <George__> Or providing a sprite that has less bounding boxes (1 instead of 10)
17:00:10  <petern> George__, no
17:00:14  <Yexo> George__: users can already disable animation, so what is the point of emulating that via newgrf?
17:00:20  <LA> mewonders if advertising his suggestion ( to get attention to it is a bad thing
17:00:31  <petern> you'd have to remove the animation code
17:00:47  <petern> otherwise you'll incur the same animation penalty but without the benefit of the image changing
17:00:52  <LA> hmm
17:01:02  <George__> does stoping the animation would help?
17:01:03  <LA> parameter controlled action7 :P
17:01:13  * LA whistles off
17:01:36  <frosch123> [18:03] <George__> does stoping the animation would help? <- yes
17:02:56  <George__> I supposed that I should change it according to Global var 1B
17:03:16  <frosch123> despite of that I doubt animated tiles have a big impact on performance
17:03:54  <George__> frosch123: So, if I specify animation for tiles, but stop it, animation does not take cpu?
17:04:05  <petern> takes less
17:04:14  <petern> events are still processed
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17:04:43  <petern> following varaction chains
17:05:00  <frosch123> and var 1B is not supported
17:05:38  <frosch123> and likely will never be. You have to use a grf parameter
17:07:43  <George__> frosch123: >	despite of that I doubt animated tiles have a big impact on performance
17:07:44  <Yexo> out of curiosity, what is var 1B? ( is down)
17:07:45  <George__> Does it mean low profit with lot of efforts?
17:08:09  <George__> Yexo: 1B	B	display options; bit 0=town names, 1=station names, 2=signs, 3=animation, 4=transparency, 5=full detail
17:08:46  <frosch123> Yexo:
17:08:52  <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: there used to be wiki2
17:09:04  <Yexo> that one still works, thx all :)
17:09:54  <frosch123> George__: start with setting the animation_speed property to very slow, and ask the user whether it had any impact
17:10:22  <frosch123> (also disable the animation speed callback :) )
17:12:12  <Eddi|zuHause> the last time i tried ECS it totally choked on a big map. like 90% of time was spent in resolveSpriteGroup
17:12:36  <glx> Eddi|zuHause: lot of callbacks ;)
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17:13:22  <Eddi|zuHause> that's when i decided to use PBI instead ;)
17:16:51  <George__> Eddi|zuHause: I have Core2Duo 2.4 CPU and I do not have any problems. But if it is a big problem for users with weaker computers - I'm ready to spend time in removing unnecessary callbacks if someone will be a tester for that.
17:17:40  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't have that weak of a computer... like an athlon 2000+ or 2400+ or something
17:18:06  <Eddi|zuHause> since the second core does not help openttd at all...
17:18:12  <TrueBrain> how ever fast your computer becomes, relative CPU time never changes :)
17:18:23  <TrueBrain> if it spents 90% of the time in resolveSpriteGroup, it does that on all CPUs :p
17:18:27  <TrueBrain> (well, give or take a few % :p)
17:19:05  <George__> frosch123: what callbacks take the most CPU?
17:19:30  <petern> Eddi|zuHause, athlon 2000/2400+ is pretty weak compared to core2duo ;)
17:20:09  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but it's not that low end, like people using 800MHz PCs :p
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17:20:35  <Eddi|zuHause> (which i still expect openttd to run fine on)
17:20:45  <TrueBrain> big assumption ;)
17:20:57  <Eddi|zuHause> and it was a freshly started map... no vehicles or anything
17:21:24  <Eddi|zuHause> and it felt like playing TT on a 25MHz computer with a full map
17:22:13  <frosch123> George__: those which are called often :) E.g. when the animation counter or tileloop triggers :)
17:22:14  <petern> was that before certain things were improved?
17:22:22  <petern> (or was that generation only?)
17:22:30  <Eddi|zuHause> that was generation only afaik
17:22:39  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not talking about that ;)
17:23:05  <frosch123> it was the "distance to water/land" variable, which is most likely used on generation :)
17:24:59  <frosch123> hmm, maybe the "animation speed" callback is the slowest of all
17:25:12  <petern> it does a lot
17:25:26  <George__> yes, but this variable is used only once a month :)
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17:26:16  <SpComb> flyspray UI smells
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17:26:36  <LordAzamath> yes
17:26:46  <SpComb> put the mouse cursor anywhere on the row, and it highlights... left click, and it opens... middle click, and nothing happens
17:26:56  <LordAzamath> especially if noone responds to task 2458
17:26:58  <George__> frosch123: CBs 20/27/142 ?
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17:31:00  <frosch123> yes, those
17:45:36  <George__> Ok, I'll remove callback 27 from everywhere. What is the next one?
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17:55:20  <George__> Unfortunately, there were not much callbacks 27, only in agricultural vector :(
17:55:27  <frosch123> George__: <- callback 0 means real sprite (not important), callback 1 means random trigger
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17:56:48  <xand> hmm, I have openttd running on two machines, both version 0.6.3... on one, when I tell it to make trees transparent from the Transparency Options window, they disappear completely, but on the other, they go transparent like buildings do; why the difference?
17:57:12  <Yexo> in the gui tab under patch settings
17:57:55  <Yexo> sorry, it's under "interface", the option called "invisible trees"
17:58:02  <xand> thanks
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18:02:08  <jerkerTaggart> Yexo: Blockings fixed and updated (more parallell throughput), slightly uglier crossings though :-) ( )
18:03:22  <George__> frosch123: Very interesting statistics. Could you provide instructions how to get it myself?
18:04:23  <frosch123> <- compile yourself using that patch :p
18:05:50  <George__> frosch123: :( I do not have tools for compilation. Could someone compile me a win32 version?
18:06:24  <mrfrenzy> get buildottd
18:06:41  <Rubidium> mrfrenzy: buildottd is failing for months already
18:06:54  <frosch123> since new server
18:07:16  <mrfrenzy> ooh sorry didn't know
18:07:23  <mrfrenzy> it was quite useful when I last used it
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18:23:21  <Eddi|zuHause> just out of curiosity, if i had an action 4, could i use gender and plural codes? and would ttdp understand those?
18:23:51  <frosch123> no to both
18:23:56  <glx> action 4 follows ttdp format
18:24:32  <Eddi|zuHause> because it would be kinda useful if you could put a gender e.g. to industries
18:25:03  <frosch123> and as translators can change and abuse the genders as they like, your grf would be specific to certain revisions
18:25:47  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but that is a rare special case, and you can check revisions in the grf
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18:27:29  <Wolf01> hi
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18:28:04  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, the "new industry founded" message is the one that annoys me the most
18:28:54  <Rubidium> it shouldn't be too hard to make something that OTTD likes
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18:30:57  <Eddi|zuHause> my memory is fading somehow... how did TT handle genders of industries? [in the german translation]
18:31:12  <frosch123> I guess not at all
18:31:43  <Eddi|zuHause> and how got ottd's system get introduced?
18:32:11  <Rubidium> by decree of Ludde?
18:33:40  <glx> Eddi|zuHause: newgrf can specify their own message
18:34:03  <frosch123> only when failing :p
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18:34:26  <glx> new industry text ID (1B)
18:35:18  <frosch123> oh, ok :)
18:35:40  <Eddi|zuHause> apparently, tron introduced the gender system
18:36:25  <Eddi|zuHause> glx: i don't expect most newgrf authors to use those
18:36:42  <glx> not our problem ;)
18:38:31  <glx> of course they need to define the custom new industry text for all languages (even if only one requires special treatment)
18:41:10  <Rubidium> it should be fairly trivial to cook up a few changes to the specs to make genders and plurals supported
18:41:25  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... no i misread the log, ludde introduced the gender system, and tron updated the german translation
18:42:09  <Rubidium> basically "porting" SCC_SETCASE, SCC_SWITCH_CASE, SCC_GENDER_LIST and SCC_PLURAL_LIST
18:42:35  <Eddi|zuHause> strgen must introduce a special symbol for case and stuff, you just need to add those to the action 4 strings
18:42:45  <glx> the only problem is how to be sure gender and cases order remains the same ?
18:43:00  <Rubidium> glx: you can't be sure of that
18:43:31  <Eddi|zuHause> you don't, it's the grf coder/translator's responsibility. just make sure errors are handled gracefully
18:43:52  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: Seems like TTD solved it by skipping a lot "der", "die", "das"
18:45:29  <Eddi|zuHause> systems like these would be a lot more standardised if english had genders :p
18:45:42  <LordAzamath> standard meh
18:45:48  <LordAzamath> Estonian doesn't have genders
18:45:51  <LordAzamath> :)
18:46:00  <LordAzamath> so nothing else shouldn't have either
18:46:02  <benjamingoodger> genders are Bad, Very Very Bad
18:46:12  <LordAzamath> true
18:46:21  <benjamingoodger> inflected persons are Bad, Very Very Bad
18:46:28  <LordAzamath> We are gone so far that even he/she is with one word..
18:46:30  <glx> Eddi|zuHause: english has genders
18:46:35  <frosch123> LordAzamath: Isn't that compensated by about 6 genders in all your neighboured countries?
18:47:01  <glx> but it doesn't really use them
18:47:02  <Eddi|zuHause> glx: yes, but they appear at exactly one point. in the 3rd person singular pronouns
18:47:19  <LordAzamath> hmm.. I thought that there are only 2 genders.. but perhaps the russians have the rest 4 too
18:47:20  <LordAzamath> :D
18:47:36  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: no, you mean cases
18:47:52  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r14691 /trunk/src/lang/ (10 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
18:47:52  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2008-12-18 18:47:25
18:47:52  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: arabic_egypt - 132 fixed, 1 changed by khaloofah (133)
18:47:52  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: czech - 10 fixed, 25 changed by Hadez (35)
18:47:52  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: esperanto - 15 fixed by Athaba (15)
18:47:53  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: greek - 7 fixed by ouranogrammi (7)
18:47:54  <frosch123> true
18:47:55  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: indonesian - 88 changed by fanioz (88)
18:48:19  <benjamingoodger> LordAzamath: english does have a gender-neutral pronoun, "one", but it has acquired the status of snobbish idiom, and thereby "you" is preferred in informal speech
18:48:25  <benjamingoodger> which is annoying to most others
18:49:13  <Eddi|zuHause> gender-neutral != neutral gender ["it"]
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18:49:56  <benjamingoodger> yes, I know
18:50:12  <benjamingoodger> I mean gender-neutral as opposed to neutral gender.
18:50:25  <LordAzamath> ahh..
18:50:42  <benjamingoodger> french: "on", esperanto: "oni", etc. god knows about the germanics
18:50:46  <benjamingoodger> slavics
18:50:47  <benjamingoodger> etc.
18:50:58  <Eddi|zuHause> it's worse in german, where you would say "man"
18:51:10  <Eddi|zuHause> which is awfully close to "Mann"
18:51:11  <benjamingoodger> how inconvenient
18:51:16  <benjamingoodger> indeed
18:51:34  <Eddi|zuHause> "awfully" for the feminists ;)
18:51:37  <petern> manfred mann?
18:51:57  <benjamingoodger> possibly just as in "male person". ¬.¬
18:52:27  <petern> come on with out
18:52:29  <petern> come on with in
18:52:34  <LordAzamath> Atleast we got 14 cases of a noun :P (or 28 if you add plural forms too)
18:52:34  <petern> you'll not see nothing like the mighty quinn
18:52:38  <benjamingoodger> anyway, time for me to go, I have a pub quiz to attend... thirty per cent of my estranged friends have returned to the county while their universities close over christmas
18:52:54  <petern> cup of meat, eh
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18:55:04  <Wolf01> who's the pathfinder guru?
19:07:56  <Rubidium> pick any of blathijs/michi_cc/KUDr I reckon
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19:13:55  <petern> odd
19:14:08  <petern> i seem to have made a directory that only openbve can see :o
19:16:36  <SpComb> if it has a handle open on it
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19:22:07  <petern> nope
19:23:17  <Wolf01> blathijs, michi_cc : fix the vehicles pathfinding please! they always use a single roadstop and they make stupid tours around the stations to reach the nearest (by bird fly) stop instead of the first free one
19:24:08  <frosch123> that one is assinged to celestar :p
19:25:47  <TrueBrain> gimme his home address, I will sent him a letter!
19:26:28  <Wolf01> post trucks will get stuck!
19:26:46  <Wolf01> until he fixes them
19:26:47  <TrueBrain> DARN!
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20:06:14  <xand> hmm
20:06:25  <blathijs> Wolf01: I think the key there is to make the heuristic drop to 0 when the bird's distance to the station becomes smaller than the station's spread
20:06:43  <blathijs> Wolf01: Or rather, subtract the station's spread from the heuristic might be even better
20:07:08  <xand> is there a known issue where "Loading indicators" stop working after a while? it's set to "Own company" but they no longer appear
20:07:54  <frosch123> blathijs: the problem is, road vehicle queueing does not know about the difference of entering drivethrough stops from different directions
20:08:29  <frosch123> does does it know, that it is useless to drive through one roadstop to reach another one
20:08:41  <frosch123> s/does/nor/
20:08:44  <Wolf01> but I remember the last time we tried something like this, the performance loss was bigger than the enhancement
20:09:23  <blathijs> frosch123: Can you explain how drivetrhough roadstops are different in this regard? I've never used (nor seen) them
20:09:41  <Eddi|zuHause> what it needs is a list of entry points, reachable bays from that entry point, and exit points of a road station
20:09:53  <frosch123> road vehicle queueing sees that drivethrough stops have 2 slots for vehicles to load
20:10:04  <petern> celestar said he was going to fix them
20:10:14  <frosch123> but when the vehicles approach from one direction, they can only enter one of them
20:10:19  <blathijs> frosch123: Ah, but only one of them for each direction?
20:10:30  <glx> petern: and you said you were going to fix the newgrf warning for msvc ;)
20:10:31  <frosch123> so all vehicles are constantly sent to the stop, as one slot is still free
20:10:36  <Rubidium> petern: he also said that cargodest would be done in two weeks (when he started)
20:11:50  <Wolf01> maybe with "done" he meant "a playable patch"
20:13:38  <petern> would be handy if vehicles could get to the 'wrong bay' anyway
20:13:53  <petern> maybe just if near one-way road
20:14:33  <Eddi|zuHause> things like that _could_ be solved by newgrf roadstations :p
20:14:54  <Eddi|zuHause> define efficient big bus stations
20:15:10  <petern> i don't think richk got that far ;)
20:15:12  <Eddi|zuHause> tram turning loops with several parallel stops
20:15:24  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, but i can dream ;)
20:16:11  <Eddi|zuHause> but those also must be considered when preparing multistop now
20:16:19  <Eddi|zuHause> otherwise it must be updated again
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20:20:38  <blathijs> frosch123: Wolf01: Not sure about fixing the drivethrough roadstop thing, but I think this might be a useful patch
20:20:44  <blathijs> frosch123: Wolf01:
20:21:09  <blathijs> frosch123: Wolf01: It's completely untested (not even sure if it compiles), but gotta go again now :-)
20:21:38  <Wolf01> thanks, I might give it a look when I have more spare time :P
20:21:57  <frosch123> what is it supposed to do ?
20:22:50  <Wolf01> I might try to merge it with the drag&drop roadstops
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20:30:19  <Wolf01> Yexo, how's going with the freeform edges?
20:30:44  <Yexo> the patch works but needs more testing
20:31:19  <Yexo> I still need to add a setting to disable terraforming the edges and make the NE and NW tiles MP_VOID
20:31:41  <Yexo> but that shouldn't change anything visible (except that you'll lose one row/column of tiles)
20:32:17  <Wolf01> the current sea row/column
20:32:25  <Yexo> yep
20:33:21  <Wolf01> so it's like all the map will be translated by one tile to make room for the southern edge
20:33:49  <Yexo> no, the main problem is that currently it's possible to have buoys on that row of sea tiles
20:34:09  <Yexo> the as long as there are any ships / buoys, you won't be able to enable it
20:34:15  <frosch123> Wolf01: currently you cannot build on the first column/row either
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20:36:29  <Wolf01> uhm, this suggests me that I will have some problems with ships, I usually make very long routes with buoys
20:38:00  <Yexo> Wolf01: only if you place your buoys on the north edges
20:38:17  <Yexo> and then only if you do that in a game were you have not yet enabled the freeform map edges feature
20:38:29  <Wolf01> no, I mean I will need to terraform, or make long canals
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20:40:31  <Wolf01> or I can connect cities with trains/aircrafts/rvs... but cruise ships are so nice :P
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20:53:32  <svippy> Wolf01:  You're crazy.
20:53:42  <svippy> And why does the newest openttd rely on a lib I don't have?
20:53:46  <svippy> :( So rude.
20:53:51  <SpComb> boost?
20:54:07  <svippy> ./openttd: error while loading shared libraries: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
20:54:11  <Eddi|zuHause> the language stuff most probably
20:54:11  <Yexo> svippy: was updated some time ago
20:54:36  <svippy> Eddi|zuHause hit the nail on the head.
20:54:38  <svippy> Bam!
20:54:51  <Eddi|zuHause> svippy: support for left to right languages, like persion or hebrew
20:54:59  <Eddi|zuHause> s/o/a
20:55:05  <Eddi|zuHause> /
20:55:12  <frosch123> haha, left to right, how uncommon :)
20:55:19  <Eddi|zuHause> err...
20:55:21  <Eddi|zuHause> whatever
20:55:25  <svippy> O_O
20:55:29  <svippy> Yeah, English is so crazy, frosch123.
20:55:34  <Prof_Frink> Eddi|zuHause: "suppart"?
20:55:34  <Eddi|zuHause> can't figure out the sed command for that now :p
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20:56:26  <Prof_Frink> (I was halfway through s|$|/| when you added the trailing delimiter)
20:56:50  <svippy> Is OpenTTD looking for translators of Artificial Languages as well?
20:57:28  <frosch123> ido, esperanto: yes
20:57:59  <svippy> Okay, more specific; fictional languages.
20:58:24  <Prof_Frink> Klingon? Pirate? lolcat? 1337?
20:58:24  <frosch123> maybe one or both of bokmal and nynorsk are artificial too :p
20:58:39  <svippy> Neither, Prof_Frink.
20:58:48  <svippy> Qwenya is more my deal.
20:58:48  <frosch123> piglatin ?
20:58:53  <svippy> Quenya*
20:59:27  * Prof_Frink ponders lolopenttd
20:59:32  <svippy> O_O
20:59:47  <Prof_Frink> can has train.
21:00:21  <svippy> Yus
21:00:34  <svippy> Make up a town naming scheme for that as well, Prof_Frink.
21:01:08  <Prof_Frink> i made you a airyplane, but i crashed it. 100 dead :(.
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21:03:18  <frosch123> night
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21:27:23  <Terkhen> hello :)
21:31:26  <svippy> :o
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21:44:10  <SpComb> <-- yay
21:45:24  <SpComb> but building a bouy still just segfaults :(
21:46:40  <SpComb> apparently because there's no towns... because the genmap stuff got into an infinite loop there
21:47:39  <Wolf01> omg
21:48:32  <SpComb> yeah, seems you can't really play OpenTTD without any towns, too many NULL pointers all over the place :(
21:48:55  <Wolf01> just fix them all
21:49:42  <glx> you need at least 1 town
21:49:51  <glx> (required for industries too)
21:50:51  <SpComb> and I need something that's not sea
21:52:12  <Wolf01> use the freeform edges patch and place one single building in the center
21:52:52  <Wolf01> oh, I think I found an unwanted behavior... maybe it's wanted, but not by me :P
21:53:05  <Wolf01> the sea can flood the purchased land
21:54:24  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: you cannot place towns too close to the edge of the map
21:54:57  <Wolf01> place them outside.. there's so many space over there
21:55:15  <blathijs> cool, the patch compiled :-)
21:55:56  <svippy>  <SpComb> <-- yay << Is this the new widescreen version of OpenTTD I've heard so much about?
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21:56:45  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, widescreen phones :p
21:57:08  <svippy> Awesome.
21:57:16  <SpComb> svippy: heh, no, it's just an ion3 frame, window mode
21:57:22  <Wolf01> that should run really fast on pda
21:57:25  <SpComb> it's the map size that's the interesting bit
21:57:40  <svippy> What, can't OpenTTD handle small maps?
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21:57:50  <SpComb> <-- that's better
21:58:10  <SpComb> svippy: no, there's a lot of uint overflow-below-zero and other assumptions that the code makes
21:58:12  <Eddi|zuHause> at least map size is a power of two :p
21:58:13  <svippy> I hate Hindston, always disrespecting with their one road tile.
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21:58:41  <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause: yeah, I started out by just lowering the minimum value for the map_x/map_y values to zero, and I'm now trying this with them both set to two :)
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22:00:42  <Wolf01> ahah! you can make mini games which can be used as vista's sidebar widgets, you have a 9 tiles city you can see changing with years
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22:01:18  <SpComb> the saveload stuff also assumes that the map size is a multiple of MAP_SL_BUF_SIZE or something
22:01:28  <Bjarni> hello people
22:01:38  <Wolf01> hi Mr Bjarni
22:01:57  <SpComb> oh darn, you can't build stations on the edges of the map either :(
22:02:21  <Bjarni> @seen bjarni
22:02:21  <DorpsGek> Bjarni: bjarni was last seen in #openttd 53 seconds ago: <Bjarni> hello people
22:02:48  <SpComb>
22:02:52  <SpComb> success :)
22:03:11  <Bjarni> 3x3 map?
22:03:14  <SpComb> 4x4
22:03:27  <Bjarni> I can see a 3x3 map
22:03:34  <SpComb> dunno, but map_x/map_y are both 2
22:03:44  <Bjarni> interesting
22:04:10  <Bjarni> does that mean that a 256x256 really is 255x255?
22:04:22  <SpComb> you can try counting
22:04:25  <Yexo> Bjarni: yes
22:04:25  <Bjarni> :P
22:04:36  <Yexo> the tiles at the south border are MP_VOID (and thus invisible)
22:04:54  <Bjarni> hmm
22:04:57  <Bjarni> makes sense
22:05:26  <SpComb>
22:05:57  <Bjarni> looks like it's a bit hard to get a railroad though that town
22:06:03  <Wolf01> halo map!!!!
22:06:29  <Prof_Frink> Lol, "pron"ningworth
22:07:31  <SpComb> Bjarni: you just build around the north edge, with stations in the middle :)
22:08:04  <SpComb> hmm... it's not generating any passengers, for some reason
22:08:19  <Bjarni> heh
22:08:29  <blathijs> Wolf01: Hmm, the problem I was trying to fix with the patch I pasted you, doesn't really seem to exist :-)
22:08:31  <SpComb> <-- my bus service is for naught :(
22:08:45  <Wolf01> lol?
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22:15:40  <blathijs> Wolf01: Ah, it's the multistop code that selects a specific tile for the road vehicle to go to, it's not the pathfinder that selects the roadstop at all
22:15:53  <Wolf01> good to know
22:15:57  <blathijs> Wolf01: In that case, you should probably bug Celestar about your problem :-)
22:16:55  <SpComb> <-- giant screenshot
22:19:07  <glx> blathijs: he's already aware of the problem and said he will fix it
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22:20:16  <Yexo> on the other hand the fs bug report is already from april and it's still not fixed
22:20:38  <Yexo> SpComb: nice :) what size map is that, 8x256?
22:20:49  <SpComb> yes
22:21:29  <SpComb> I can't go below a 4x4, as it can't generate any towns then
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22:34:58  * SpComb wonders how the TILELOOP_* stuff works
22:35:56  <Wolf01> 'night ;)
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22:36:30  <SpComb> nobody's bothered to comment any of these magical bitmask things :(
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22:40:18  <Eddi|zuHause> if you commented magic it wouldn't be magic
22:41:54  <SpComb> <-- it's failing the first assert, which, I gather, it supposed to check that the tile is within bounds
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22:42:21  <SpComb> (why not use IsValidTile?)
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22:43:01  <Nite_Owl> Hello all
22:43:21  <Eddi|zuHause> because asserts are optimised out for release builds, so they indicate what you have to make sure before calling
22:43:50  <Eddi|zuHause> you don't have to call IsValidTile multiple times in a row, so it is not there
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22:44:25  <SpComb> IsValidTile is completely inline'd, it would read a lot better than some cryptic assert on an "TILELOOP_ASSERTMASK" mask
22:45:06  <SpComb> as far as I can tell, `assert((tile & ~TILELOOP_ASSERTMASK) == 0)` means more or less the same thing as `assert(IsValidTile(tile))`
22:45:06  <Rubidium> but the assertmask doesn't check whether the thing is a valid tile
22:46:44  <Rubidium> SpComb: TILELOOP_ASSERTMASK becomes (bitwise) something like 0000111100001111 for a 256x256 map
22:47:06  <Rubidium> and 0001111000001111 for a 512x128 (or vice versa) map
22:48:36  <Rubidium> so TILELOOP_ASSERTMASK makes sure that the tile is somewhere within the most northern 16x16 tiles
22:50:43  <SpComb> clever, but somewhat hard to understand by looking at the code :/
22:51:21  <SpComb> and the `tile += 9` ensures that the tile loop eventually goes through all tiles?
22:51:32  <Rubidium> yes
22:52:37  <SpComb> and this evidently breaks completely when the map doesn't even have 16x16 tiles in the north corner
22:55:05  <SpComb> and TILELOOP_CHKMASK then masks those 0 bits in between the two clusters of 1 bits
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23:05:07  <SpComb> well, I lowered TILELOOP_BITS to 1, and now it works, but the algorithm is probably horribly broken now
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23:35:06  <SpComb> <-- the industry code was actually nice enough to assert() instead of going into an infinite loop
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23:46:48  <SpComb> TGP is somehow broken on the coastline tiles...
23:47:35  <Eddi|zuHause> tgp artificially cuts off the coast line irregularly
23:49:04  <SpComb> the function comments talk about "only for x/y coordinates which are multiples of the minimum edge length"

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