Log for #openttd on 14th February 2009:
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00:00:16  <thingwath> whoa, spent 1234567890 a bus
00:02:11  <thingwath> (I'm so drunk, aw.)
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00:23:38  <el_en>
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01:29:30  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r15474 /trunk/src/ (lang/english.txt strings.cpp): -Cleanup: remove some (long) unused strings.
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01:40:41  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r15475 /trunk/src/lang/ (51 files in 2 dirs): -Update: do r15474 also for the other languages.
01:42:24  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r15476 /trunk/src/gfxinit.cpp:
01:42:24  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Fix [FS#2630]: crash when opening the game options when the currently loaded
01:42:24  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: base graphics pack has less than 2 valid graphics files. For example when
01:42:24  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: someone replaces all his/her original base graphics with custom work (but keeps
01:42:24  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: the name) or renames the dos ones to windows or vice versa.
01:47:35  <knl> this game is sort of depressing sometimes... out of the blue companies i'm servicing lose a lot of production or even just shut down
01:47:52  <knl> is it better to ignore companies in the end, and just go for passangers or something? :(
01:48:05  <Aali> you mean industries
01:48:23  <knl> industries
01:48:24  <knl> yeah
01:48:24  <Aali> and they dont shut down or decrease production if you service them properly
01:48:41  <glx> unless it's ECS
01:48:45  <glx> ;)
01:48:49  <Rubidium> Aali: depends very much on the industry
01:48:53  <Aali> yeah, ECS is a pain
01:49:05  <glx> oil wells always decrease
01:49:07  <knl> such as, delivering product to an industry, and if it makes something, deliver that too?
01:49:27  <Aali> just keep ratings over 80%
01:49:44  <knl> I have a really intricate chain of trains delivering everything to keep a vehicle factory (custom grf) supplied
01:49:58  <Aali> that would be ECS
01:50:08  <knl> the vehicles are then shipped off to an iron ore mine (?) and then... they actually don't help the production at all.
01:50:09  <knl> >_>
01:50:28  <glx> ECS is overcomplicated
01:50:32  <Aali> they're not supposed to help production really
01:50:36  <knl> hrm
01:50:39  <knl> yeah I suppose.
01:50:45  <Aali> its just a place to get rid of all those vehicles
01:51:15  <knl> fair enough to me
01:51:15  <Rubidium> best place for such vehicles is a maglevel crossing
01:51:24  <knl> >_>
01:51:38  <knl> no, more like a competitor's road vehicles
01:52:29  <knl> hmm, this just gave me an idea
01:52:38  <knl> I wonder if it's possible to completely gridlock a small city with buses >_>
01:53:05  <Rubidium> yes, deadlock: no
01:53:22  <knl> deadlock meaning
01:53:41  <glx> unmovable vehicles
01:53:42  <Rubidium> that the vehicles can't get out of it anywhere in the future
01:53:45  <knl> oh
01:53:49  <knl> they just move really slowly you mean
01:53:56  <glx> doable with trams though
01:54:16  <Rubidium> well, they stand still for a while and then they start moving through the stopped vehicle in front of them
01:54:26  <knl> o_o
01:56:34  <knl> I have this really cute boat-to-truck fish delivery scheme going
01:56:40  <knl> but the boat speeds sort of kill it >_>
01:58:07  <Elukka> i had this thing where trucks delivered wood to a train which delivered it to the docks where ships delivered it to its destination
01:58:12  <Elukka> it actually turned a nice profit!
01:58:45  <knl> the speed compared to the distance traveled gives them a really huge boost in value
01:58:58  <knl> or so I think
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02:00:12  <knl> hmm, strange
02:00:19  <knl> in the vehicle factory scheme i mentioned above...
02:00:39  <knl> my biggest earning train is actually the coal-> steel factory train >_>
02:00:45  <knl> steel milç*
02:00:47  <knl> mill**
02:01:48  <Aali> you should check the cargo payment rates graph
02:03:18  <knl> ...vehicles is absurdly high
02:03:33  <knl> but they take so long to full load the vehicles train that it don't really earn that much
02:04:16  <Aali> and you'll have a hard time getting rid of all the vehicles once production picks up
02:05:02  <knl> hrm
02:05:08  <knl> steel production isn't keeping up though...
02:05:37  <knl> the coal train earning so much is probably due to the fact that i'm using two other trains to get coal from other mines to take to the steel mill...
02:05:47  <knl> since the closest one had crappy production xd
02:07:47  <knl> hrm
02:07:53  <knl> oil wells closed out of the blue.
02:10:58  <Aali> dunno about ECS but with default industries all oil wells close eventually
02:11:15  <knl> well they would when the oil runs out, sure
02:11:29  <knl> but that one had at least 50million litres left to tap into, last time I'd checked
02:11:45  <Aali> oh, you're playing with exhaustible resources too?
02:11:50  <Aali> I could never do that
02:11:54  <Aali> waay too annoying
02:12:05  <knl> i suppose it was turned on by default or something
02:12:14  <Aali> the value displayed doesn't actually indicate how much is left though
02:12:44  <Aali> its a VERY rough estimate and really only affects the "% chance to close"
02:12:50  <knl> mm
02:12:56  <knl> sometimes it increases all of a sudden, too >_>
02:13:07  <Aali> well, thats a feature
02:13:10  <knl> this one oil wells was on 300m when I started taking the oil
02:13:14  <knl> suddenly it's at 450m
02:13:48  <Aali> yeah, that can happen if the initial estimate was too low
02:13:57  <knl> mmhm
02:19:04  <knl> oh nice.
02:19:11  <knl> the iron ore mine stopped accepting vehicles.
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02:35:11  <knl> how do I even change such things as the exhaustible resources or industries suddenly not accepting some cargo due to having too much of it
02:35:38  <Aali> you can do it with grf parameters
02:35:50  <Aali> see the documentation for whatever industry set you're using
02:35:58  <knl> ok
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02:41:13  <knl> that worked, thanks
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07:18:27  <petern> urgh
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08:29:26  <Roest> morning
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08:34:27  <petern> yes
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09:54:07  <Wolf01> hello
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09:56:28  <OsteHovel^EEE> I got a new record compiling OpenTTD... i used 1 minute and 5 secounds to compile the newest SVN. Having RAW power of 15.1 ghz (im using Distcc)
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10:32:56  <petern> 1 minute 5 seconds? that's pretty bad
10:33:04  <OsteHovel^EEE> i know
10:33:09  <OsteHovel^EEE> trying to improve it now...
10:39:52  <petern> i get about 17-18 seconds on my system, but that's for a debug build
10:40:16  <Progman> from a clean checkout?
10:40:19  <petern> yes
10:40:35  <Progman> I need at least 17-18 seconds for the language files o_O
10:41:18  <petern> ouch
10:41:26  <petern> what do you compile on, a p233? :o
10:42:01  <OsteHovel^EEE> Do you guys use MSVC or GCC?
10:42:24  <petern> both. that timing was with gcc on linux, though.
10:45:16  <OsteHovel^EEE> when i say my timings they are always including the ./configure script.. and i use make mrproper before running the test,...
10:46:49  <OsteHovel^EEE> new personal record on building svn: just 50 secounds!
10:47:54  <OsteHovel^EEE> this time it was raw power of: 18.3 ghz...
10:48:08  <OsteHovel^EEE> distcc is a very good program
10:51:01  <dihedral> morning
10:51:31  <OsteHovel^EEE> Good morning Mr. Dihedral
10:51:55  <OsteHovel^EEE> Have a god night with alot of sleep Mr. Dihedral?
10:52:00  <Progman> I have read thesedays distcc doesn't scale good enought if you got more than 3 hosts, can you confirm this?
10:52:30  <dihedral> OsteHovel^EEE, i see no upper case char in my nick!
10:52:38  <OsteHovel^EEE> i know...
10:52:39  <dihedral> so i assume you are talking to someone else
10:52:51  <OsteHovel^EEE> nope i wasent talking to someone else
10:53:14  <dihedral> well, i certainly have not been addressed in that line
10:55:44  <Roest> morning d1H3dR4l
10:55:55  <OsteHovel^EEE> ;P
10:57:03  <OsteHovel^EEE> Do it exist a lightweight IDE for Linux? im currently using Kdevelop but it woud have been nice to not need all the Qt/kde libs...
10:57:34  <Roest> eclipse cdt
11:01:45  <Progman> kate is more lightweight but still needs kde ;)
11:02:12  <Rubidium> kate isn't a IDE
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11:02:16  <Roest> kate isnt really an IDE
11:02:24  <Rubidium> don't call eclipse + java lightweight
11:02:51  <OsteHovel^EEE> :P
11:03:04  <OsteHovel^EEE> Java has never been lgihtweight
11:03:15  <Roest> well depends, eclipse you download, unpack and it runs, i consider that lightwieght
11:03:18  <OsteHovel^EEE> Someone here tried out Code::Blocks?
11:03:51  <Rubidium> Roest: yeah, then KDE is also lightweight if you've got KDE already installed
11:04:01  <OsteHovel^EEE> :P
11:04:30  <OsteHovel^EEE> Im using Xubuntu on a EEE so i havent got Unlimited Space so i try to remove alot of libs if they are not used
11:04:35  <Roest> i always thought code blocks being some wxwidgets thingy
11:05:39  <Eddi|zuHause> i consider KDevelop lightweigt, i have to just click on it in YaST, and it runs.
11:05:40  <Rubidium> anjuta? (gnome)
11:05:51  <Wolf01> OsteHovel^EEE, I use code::blocks, but not for OTTD
11:06:10  * OsteHovel^EEE is trying to find/install/tryout anjuta
11:06:11  <OsteHovel^EEE> ...
11:06:41  <OsteHovel^EEE> hmm
11:06:58  <OsteHovel^EEE> the one who said that Eclipse was just download and run was LYING
11:07:19  <dihedral> <- that's for Alain :-D
11:07:54  <dihedral> [11:57]  <OsteHovel^EEE> Do it exist a lightweight IDE for Linux? <- vim
11:07:55  <OsteHovel^EEE> The first i got when i run it was: A Java runtime Enviroment...... bla bla bla need to be present bla bla bla
11:08:02  <OsteHovel^EEE> dihedral, vim :P
11:08:13  <dihedral> perhaps you might like emacs
11:08:24  <OsteHovel^EEE> i like nano (i know im a newbie....)
11:08:37  <Roest> rubidium cdt is 68MB that's lightweight when you have 1 or more TB hd space ;)
11:08:58  <OsteHovel^EEE> eclipse is MINIMUM 68 mb becouse you also need java and its HUGE!
11:09:15  <Roest> well java is installed anyway
11:09:19  <OsteHovel^EEE> nope
11:09:21  <dihedral> <Roest> well depends, eclipse you download, unpack and it runs, i consider that lightwieght <- my grondmother does the same, but she runs very slow and is definitely not lightweight
11:09:21  <OsteHovel^EEE> i dont have java
11:09:57  <OsteHovel^EEE> and i dont need it... so i do not wanna wasste any space on my 4 gb SSD ...
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11:10:10  <dihedral> OsteHovel^EEE, what you wanting to develop ?
11:10:17  <Roest> 4 GB ...
11:10:23  * dihedral smiles
11:10:24  <OsteHovel^EEE> dihedral, not sure...
11:10:25  <OsteHovel^EEE> :P
11:10:32  <OsteHovel^EEE> im just testing them all out
11:10:39  <OsteHovel^EEE> C or/and C++ apps
11:10:43  <dihedral> i would use the word "idiot" lightly again, but i think that would not go down very well
11:10:57  <Roest> sorry was talking computers not mobile phones :)
11:11:08  <OsteHovel^EEE> :P
11:11:23  * dihedral knows computers with even less space
11:11:32  <el_en> wtf, did someone just call Eclipse lightweight?
11:11:38  <dihedral> nope
11:11:41  <Roest> that would be me
11:11:46  <dihedral> unless you redefine the word
11:12:14  <OsteHovel^EEE> anjuta is a IDE and its very light...
11:12:19  <Roest> and now we know previously unknown facts about dihedral's gramma
11:12:28  <dihedral> Roest only said it was something that runs out of the box which covers his definition of lightweit
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11:12:43  <dihedral> Roest, i shall find a "lightweight" girl for you :-D
11:12:47  * dihedral googles
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11:13:10  <dihedral> OsteHovel^EEE, an IDE
11:13:41  <dihedral> emacs is the best thing i can think of for your use
11:13:47  <OsteHovel^EEE> just to clearify for everyone... i have a EEE with 4 gb space for system libraries and applications... it has a 1.6 ghz Intel Atom CPU and i have 2gb of ram and i need a good IDE for it...
11:13:54  <dihedral> if it must be an ide that is
11:13:55  <dihedral> else vim
11:14:06  <Roest> ...
11:14:20  <dihedral> and when i say vim i mean vim not vim.tiny
11:14:23  <dihedral> or vi
11:14:27  <fjb> Vim is great, no need for an ide.
11:14:36  * dihedral nods
11:14:41  <OsteHovel^EEE> nano & xterm & make works good...
11:14:41  <fjb> Vi is not that great.
11:14:42  <OsteHovel^EEE> :P
11:14:50  <dihedral> nano?????
11:14:50  <OsteHovel^EEE> but its not a ide...
11:14:51  <dihedral> yuck
11:14:59  <dihedral> an ide
11:15:06  <OsteHovel^EEE> *an ide
11:15:07  <el_en> nano is almost the worst possible editor for coding.
11:15:35  <OsteHovel^EEE> Do it exist a other edit(*msdos*) clone for linux??
11:15:35  <Roest> i cannot code in simple text editors anymore, i got spoiled by intellisense
11:15:40  <dihedral> el_en, rephrase please
11:15:55  <dihedral> it is (one of) the worst possible editor
11:15:59  <dihedral> (s)
11:16:26  <el_en> OsteHovel^EEE: have look at a great editor (which is not an IDE though):
11:16:38  <dihedral> hehe
11:16:41  <dihedral> fte is nice
11:16:47  <dihedral> ish
11:16:56  <dihedral> useful if you have like huge space issues
11:17:20  <OsteHovel^EEE> I ran out of diskspace... I forgot to remove Eclipse...
11:17:20  <Alberth> GIMP is nice when programming Piet, I think
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11:18:29  <dihedral> OsteHovel^EEE, which project will even fit in that space you have left if not the ide even anymore :-D
11:19:15  <OsteHovel^EEE> :P
11:19:19  <OsteHovel^EEE> i have more than 1 drive
11:19:38  <OsteHovel^EEE> i have a 8gb drive that i mounted /home
11:20:02  <Roest> why put eclipse on the small one then?
11:20:45  <dihedral> because that is / and he does not know how to install without apt-get
11:21:18  <OsteHovel^EEE> i did unpack eclipse to /opt/eclipse  :P
11:22:23  * OsteHovel^EEE is now compilling efte...
11:24:50  <OsteHovel^EEE> i think i stay with KDevelop
11:27:04  <OsteHovel^EEE> kdevelop has a lot of nice functions and it works out of the box using apt-get...
11:27:24  <OsteHovel^EEE> but its not lightweight but shit happens...
11:27:35  <OsteHovel^EEE> * -but
11:28:20  <el_en> when you try out efte, you'll notice you don't need KDevelop anymore.
11:28:40  <Roest> which version of kde are you using?
11:28:49  <OsteHovel^EEE> hmm
11:29:07  <OsteHovel^EEE> version 3.5.10
11:31:52  <OsteHovel^EEE> lol
11:31:55  <OsteHovel^EEE> eFTE
11:32:41  <OsteHovel^EEE> Console IDE..
11:32:47  <dihedral> ...
11:32:53  <dihedral> whats wrong withthat
11:33:10  <dihedral> s/ht/h t/
11:34:01  <OsteHovel^EEE> its cool
11:34:12  <OsteHovel^EEE> thats lightweight
11:35:39  <el_en> press F9 to compile
11:36:04  <OsteHovel^EEE> :P
11:36:15  <OsteHovel^EEE> F9 to compile is in nearly all IDE's
11:36:36  <el_en> not Xcode
11:37:11  <OsteHovel^EEE> isent Xcode for Mac?
11:37:58  <el_en> indeed it is.
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11:39:38  <ccfreak2k> gain_analysis.c:107: warning: ignoring #pragma warning
11:39:39  <ccfreak2k> Heh.
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11:50:02  <Roujin> hello everyone
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11:55:32  <OsteHovel^EEE> Hi Roujin
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11:58:57  <Steve14> Hi there
11:59:04  <OsteHovel^EEE> Hi Steve14
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11:59:43  <Steve14> I noticed a little bug in the music box, it doesn't play the 22nd track
12:06:30  <Rubidium> Steve14: sounds you're playing 0.6.3, right?
12:06:42  <Steve14> That's right
12:07:18  <Rubidium> it's already fixed in trunk
12:07:27  <Steve14> Could verify my problem by changing the names of and
12:08:34  <Steve14> Are there any packages avaible or do I've to compile it?
12:08:57  <Roujin> Belugas: <-- about your comment, would you also have the strings changed?
12:09:14  <Rubidium> go to the openttd website and look for the nightly instead of the stable download
12:09:36  <Steve14> Ok, thanks for your help, Rubidium
12:09:54  <Roujin> you'll be surprised about all kinds of new stuff available there, too ;)
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12:10:19  <Steve14> What stuff for example? :D
12:10:38  <Eddi|zuHause> that's a surprise ;)
12:11:04  <Tefad> ShaaazzzzzzooooooooooooooooOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooooo
12:13:08  <smallfly> the performance concerning a game like openttd, written in c# and seems to be very less; i will switch to c++ now; which graphic-api should i use to make the game portable? directx isnt portable, correct? is opengl portable to linux/mac?
12:13:23  <Steve14> Hehe, Is there any patch that pretends the AI from building 90° turns when the option "trains and ships aren't allowed to take 90° turns" is enabled?
12:14:15  <OsteHovel^EEE> smallfly: cant you use C++ and SDL, or Allegro(openttd uses it when you use 3d)
12:14:22  <Yexo> hello :)
12:14:39  <el_en> smallfly: sí, señor. opengl is portable, but it's only a graphics api. you'll have to handle input from user somehow, too.
12:14:54  <Yexo> Steve14: no, but again, try a nightly, it comes with noai, a framework for user-build AIs.
12:15:03  <OsteHovel^EEE> SDL & Allegro is OpenSource and is running under the most used os'es
12:15:56  <el_en> OsteHovel^EEE: openttd uses Allegro since when?
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12:16:18  <OsteHovel^EEE> el_en: when you use 32bpp grapics
12:16:20  <Steve14> ok, thx, I'm downloading the nightly right now
12:16:29  <OsteHovel^EEE> but only in SVN
12:17:35  <smallfly> i dont have any problem with sdl concerning input issues. for that its fine. and if you say sdl (i think you mean the tao sdl lib?) is portable ill use it for that. i used sdl in a c# application. the blitting was very slow. but if openttd is programmed with sdl, i will use it. perhaps the c# wrapper slowed it down too much
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12:19:35  <Steve14> Wowies :D
12:19:41  <Steve14> That's great
12:20:01  <el_en> smallfly: openttd uses SDL only on linux, afaik.
12:20:04  <OsteHovel^EEE> you can compile OpenTTD with Allegro or SDL (when usinig Linnux)
12:20:06  <OsteHovel^EEE> :P
12:20:18  <smallfly> and on windows?
12:20:21  <smallfly> directx?
12:20:23  <Steve14> Finally an ingame download menu  ^^
12:21:36  <OsteHovel^EEE> OpenTTD can use: Windows: GDI, SDL, (maybe Allegro) | Linux: SDL, Allegro | Mac: Cocoa
12:22:05  <smallfly> whats the fastest of those?
12:22:36  <el_en> OsteHovel^EEE: i don't see a reason why it couldn't use SDL on Mac too.
12:22:37  <smallfly> (i want to program an extension for individual car traffic, which will need thousands of blitting operations per second)
12:22:47  <OsteHovel^EEE> im checking it out
12:22:57  <OsteHovel^EEE> i think both Allegro and SDL is avable for mac too
12:22:58  <OsteHovel^EEE> not sure
12:23:05  <OsteHovel^EEE> checking it out now...
12:24:10  <smallfly> ;)
12:25:19  <OsteHovel^EEE> sdl is avable on mac
12:25:32  <el_en> what a surprise.
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12:26:05  <OsteHovel^EEE> openttd can use SDL on mac... but you cant use SDL and COCOA in the same build
12:26:06  <smallfly> mmh ... so why not using sdl on every os instead of using different apis on different os's?
12:26:26  <OsteHovel^EEE> becouse COCOA is maybe faster than SDL on Mac...
12:26:33  <OsteHovel^EEE> GDI in windows is faster than SDL on windows...
12:26:52  <smallfly> gdi is faster than sdl on windows?
12:26:58  <smallfly> thats new to me ...
12:27:20  <OsteHovel^EEE> OpenTTD run faster using Windows GDI than SDL grapic rendering..
12:27:29  <smallfly> i "learned" sdl, because i thought gdi wouldnt be able to blit those (2048^2) tiles
12:27:56  <OsteHovel^EEE> allegro is also posible to use on Mac but the same as SDL you cant have Cocoa and Allegro in the same build...
12:28:03  <el_en> smallfly: no doubt the reason for using native apis is performance.
12:28:18  <OsteHovel^EEE> If you build for Windows you can have GDI, SDL and Allegro in the same build...
12:29:00  <smallfly> ok, so i think ill use gdi to program it on my machine. the i can still integrate other apis for other os's. the input handling works with sdl on every os, right?
12:29:04  <OsteHovel^EEE> SDL is very portable... and it is a very good library for easy access to input, sound, grapics... ;D
12:29:15  <OsteHovel^EEE> SDL works on all major OS'es
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12:29:30  <smallfly> k, thanks a lot for your help ;-)
12:29:38  <Steve14> Is it normal that I've black squares, when I'm using the OpenGFX Interface, Yexo ?
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12:29:57  <smallfly> opengfx lacks some graphics --> black rectangles
12:30:04  <OsteHovel^EEE> You can use SDL input method on every os and then use GDI to draw on windows but if you on Linux you use SDL for drawing...
12:30:14  <el_en> smallfly: if I were you, I'd start with SDL regardless of performance, to avoid limiting potential developers to those running Windows.
12:30:28  <Steve14> Ok, thanks
12:30:49  <dihedral> smallfly, i read you want to switch to c++?
12:30:51  <dihedral> :-D
12:30:52  <dihedral> HAHA
12:31:03  <smallfly> yeah, for performance reasons
12:31:09  <OsteHovel^EEE> Why is OS=wince a posibility in the Openttd configure file but it isent supported...
12:31:11  <dihedral> twerp :-P
12:31:21  <smallfly> i still prefer c# but i think its too slow for my objectives
12:31:26  <OsteHovel^EEE> VB(v.6 or earlier) is better than C#
12:31:28  <dihedral> if you gonna do c++
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12:31:39  <dihedral> then you can just as well patch openttd
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12:32:07  <Rubidium> OsteHovel^EEE: primarily because it was a work in progress and adding it there doesn't cause (much) trouble
12:32:09  <smallfly> after getting a c++ specialist, ill surely programm some patches for openttd
12:32:31  <dihedral> ........
12:32:48  <OsteHovel^EEE> Rubidium: :P i guessed that... it do infact exist a port for Wince... and it working nice... i use it on my HTC Touch Pro..
12:32:50  <smallfly> the nice thing of my switch to c++: i can use all those thick game programming books bought in the last years
12:33:33  <dihedral> smallfly, i am sorry
12:33:40  <smallfly> ??
12:33:41  <dihedral> but you sound more and more silly the more you talk
12:33:45  <dihedral> :-D
12:33:47  <el_en> dihedral: it is a good idea to write something from scratch rather than waste time on the very non-extendable openttd source.
12:34:01  <dihedral> non-extenable?
12:34:10  <Rubidium> OsteHovel^EEE: major problem with those ports is that they mutilate the source code in such a way that you can't compile any other platforms anymore, thus it's very hard for us to use stuff from them
12:34:37  <dihedral> el_en, i am more laughing at the reasoning :-P
12:34:49  <Rubidium> and even then the ones that have tried couldn't get a working test environment (crosscompiling wince failed)
12:35:15  <el_en> dihedral: well yeah, the reasoning is great. :)
12:35:31  <dihedral> starting off with "readability of c++ is so bad"
12:35:44  <dihedral> going on with "i prefer c#"
12:35:50  <OsteHovel^EEE> Rubidium: i dident say you shoud work on a WinCE port... And Please do NOT prioritise a port to WinCE becouse other things are more important... and the devices do suffer from not so fast CPU
12:35:58  <dihedral> then came the lovely license stuff
12:36:00  <dihedral> and now this
12:36:07  <dihedral> smallfly really cracks me up
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12:38:34  <OsteHovel^EEE> Is there some way to close a window when you are at the main menu widout clicking at the [X] ?
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12:38:51  <Rubidium> del?
12:39:02  <OsteHovel^EEE> dosent work
12:39:11  <OsteHovel^EEE> when im at the main menu and have clicked on settings
12:39:13  <dihedral> del, not backspace
12:39:23  <OsteHovel^EEE> Del and Backspace dosent work
12:39:24  <OsteHovel^EEE> :P
12:39:28  <dihedral> alt+f4, command+q
12:39:29  <smallfly> dihedral, as long as you can amuse yourself ...
12:39:31  <Rubidium> hmm... ofcourse, that's probably coupled to the toolbar gui
12:39:31  <OsteHovel^EEE> If you ingame it works
12:39:40  <OsteHovel^EEE> Ctrl+Q quits the whole game
12:39:46  <dihedral> smallfly, no - i dont amuse myself - i am amused by you
12:39:58  <smallfly> even better
12:40:15  <dihedral> i doubt i am alone there too
12:41:15  <smallfly> dont know where the problem is. our world is cheerless enough.
12:41:21  <smallfly> cu
12:41:32  <dihedral> i am cheering :-P
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12:41:54  <dihedral> i am laughing my head off at times :-P
12:42:29  <Roujin_> you are so mean, sometimes...
12:42:32  <Roest> d1H3dR4l whats going on
12:42:40  <dihedral> Roujin_, i am not mean
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12:42:56  <Roest> you are mean
12:42:58  <dihedral> i just let him know that he kinda makes my day at times
12:43:02  <dihedral> where is that mean
12:43:05  <dihedral> that is a good thing :-P
12:43:08  <Roujin_> telling someone that you are amused by his efforts is mean, in my opinion
12:43:20  <dihedral> Roujin_, besides: he is asking for it, c'mon
12:43:21  <Roest> you were totally mean to that poor dyslexic person too
12:43:31  <dihedral> no
12:43:35  <dihedral> my last post was great
12:43:42  <dihedral> besides - i know Alain a little bit longer
12:43:43  <Roest> and he's sad now :(
12:44:02  <dihedral> you did not follow his compile success did you?
12:44:47  <Roest> ok so we'll see his patchpack this year
12:45:00  <dihedral> doubt it :P
12:45:36  <Roest> besides i just discovered that improved station build gui, i fear what i'm using myself slowly develops into a patchpack again
12:46:13  <Ammler> Roest: using mercurial this time?
12:46:30  <Roest> uh no
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12:46:43  <dihedral> hihi
12:47:08  <Roest> maybe one day i will find the time and will to learn how to use that
12:47:52  <Ammler> using hg like svn doesn't need much additional learning
12:48:46  <dihedral> Roest, when you do - create a post and blatently refuse to do any reading of documentation but rather ask questions, each question in its separate post
12:49:12  <Ammler> or sep thread :P
12:49:24  <Roest> of course, i'm sure that's the best way to get answers and you don't confuse people with several questions in one post
12:52:53  <Roest> and seriously it's much more efficient if someone explains it to you and you don't have to read through poorly written documentation
12:53:16  <dihedral> yes and no
12:53:29  <dihedral> nobody will help you if you dont show some own initiative
12:54:04  <Alberth> and you miss all the nifty features of mercurial that svn is lacking
12:54:13  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: yexo * r15477 /3rdparty/squirrel/squirrel/sqbaselib.cpp: [Squirrel] -Fix: disable some standard squirrel functions, among others thread support.
12:55:19  <Alberth> can squirrel not be copied into trunk? that would make keeping up to date so much easier.
12:55:25  <dihedral> Yexo, that looks interesting ;)
12:55:36  <Yexo> dihedral: it's not :p
12:55:40  <dihedral> Alberth, --ignore-externals
12:55:56  <Yexo> threads didn't work properly, only now AIs can't even try to use them
12:56:03  <dihedral> Yexo, no compile time advantage? ;-)
12:56:09  <Yexo> and it disables some other squirerl functions AIs should never use
12:56:20  <Alberth> dihedral: tell that to mercurial when making local repository copies
12:56:22  <Yexo> dihedral: +- 10 functions in one cpp file, don't think that counts :)
12:57:07  <dihedral> Alberth, svn co svn:// openttd && cd openttd && hg init .
12:57:09  <dihedral> :-)
12:57:22  <dihedral> Yexo, thought it involved a wee bit more :-P
12:57:24  <Roest> cool someone just suggested priorities
12:57:33  <dihedral> \o/
12:57:39  <dihedral> we have priorities
12:57:48  <dihedral> the Suggestion forum is not one of them :-D
13:03:07  <dihedral> hehe
13:03:10  <dihedral> idiots
13:04:37  <Roest> dont be so negative
13:05:08  <dihedral> Yexo, <- love that one
13:07:13  <dihedral> "with -s null works great, but no sound" <- LOL
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13:07:52  <dihedral>
13:10:20  <Yexo> dihedral: can't say I like that first thread
13:10:57  <dihedral> no, i just like your reply
13:11:18  <Yexo> my reply?
13:11:54  <Yexo> I never post in off-topic. Are you not confusing me with someone else?
13:12:04  <dihedral> ........
13:12:06  <dihedral> wait
13:12:09  <dihedral> which thread do you mean?
13:12:54  <Yexo> the first link you posted was to: "TT-forums story - Real version"
13:13:23  <dihedral> ...
13:13:58  <dihedral> i dont even read off topic myself!
13:14:14  <dihedral> i posted the "Help with scenario Editor"
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13:15:29  <Yexo> now I really wonder how I went to that offtopic thread
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13:16:12  <dihedral> :-P
13:16:19  <dihedral> you did get me very confused there
13:16:19  <Yexo> about that other post, I really didn't know what to add there, wasn't really any advice I could think off
13:16:28  <dihedral> hihi
13:17:09  <Yexo> I know :). Just change the t= in your link to p=
13:17:23  <Yexo> brb
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13:17:34  <dihedral> ...
13:17:36  <dihedral> clever
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13:17:52  <dihedral> i either tend to click on it, or do a full copy paste the url
13:18:10  <dihedral> s/the/on the/
13:18:19  <dihedral> or whatever
13:18:37  <Yexo> normally I do to, but x-chat sometimes starts to ignore clicks on links, and if it does, it doesn't copy-paste either
13:18:41  <Yexo> only a restart helps then
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13:19:45  <dihedral> right click: open link in browser
13:20:49  <Yexo> doesn't work as soon as x-chat starts behaving strange, after a restart it all works again
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13:22:39  <Roujin> did someone ever manage to fit > 255 trains through a single line, with a min signal distance of 2?
13:22:52  <dihedral> ...
13:22:57  <dihedral> openttdcoop
13:23:08  <dihedral> just make the line long enough
13:23:13  <dihedral> and choose a big map :-D
13:23:15  <Rubidium> 1tl trains
13:23:18  <Roujin> that's not what I mean
13:23:20  <kingj> Then the station becomes a problem
13:23:40  <Roujin> I mean a frequency of 255 trains through a specific tile, during a month
13:24:15  <dihedral> i dont count trains for 2.4 minutes
13:24:35  <dihedral> and if you make the trains short enough, perhaps might work
13:24:42  <dihedral> TL1.5 :-P
13:24:44  <Roujin> I just tried with maglev4 engines (no carriages) and managed 124, with a distance between the trains that seemed a bit less-than-optimal
13:25:03  <dihedral> od train lengths
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13:25:07  <dihedral> *odd
13:25:16  <Ammler> Roujin: <-- PileTransport2
13:25:47  <Rubidium> 2 tl, .5 tl trains -> 2.5 tl distance between trains is optimal (for throughput)
13:27:46  <Roujin> well the reason I ask is this: <-- peter asked here if uint8 is enough for that
13:28:02  * OsteHovel^EEE made his own script to get the volume hotkeys to work...
13:28:25  <Roujin> which translates to "can someone fit more than 255 trains through a waypoint during one month"?
13:28:53  <Rubidium> max speed: ~65000 km/h
13:29:11  <Roujin> okay, I did not take this into account
13:29:24  <Rubidium> tile is 700 km on a side
13:29:41  <Rubidium> @cakc 65000/700/2.5
13:29:45  <Rubidium> @calc 65000/700/2.5
13:29:45  <DorpsGek> Rubidium: 37.1428571429
13:30:12  <Rubidium> 37 a game hour? sounds somewhat wrong
13:30:26  <Rubidium> @calc 65000/700
13:30:26  <DorpsGek> Rubidium: 92.8571428571
13:30:39  <Roujin> @calc 37*24
13:30:39  <DorpsGek> Roujin: 888
13:30:57  <Rubidium> @calc 65000/160*5.6
13:30:57  <DorpsGek> Rubidium: 2275
13:31:20  <Rubidium> ^ that many tiles a day, so 90 tiles an hour seems possible
13:31:28  <Roujin> this 65000 km/h, is this in game units?
13:31:38  <Rubidium> 65535 in game units
13:31:58  <Rubidium> which translates to 65535/1.6 mph
13:32:06  <Roujin> did anyone ever make a train with this speed? :P (guess that does not count)
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13:32:15  <Rubidium> Roujin: yes
13:32:53  <Roujin> ok, does any sane person play this game with trains that run that fast? :P
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13:33:34  <Rubidium> please define sane for me
13:33:37  <Swallow> at openttdcoop they had a special logic train which did...
13:34:24  <Roujin> well, I guess I'll just use uint16 to be safe
13:35:06  <Roujin> hope no one complains about the counter resetting to zero when fitting through 65536 trains in a month
13:36:00  <Rubidium> just cap it at 255 I'd say
13:36:28  <Ammler> Roujin: I test your patch with our new pile transport
13:36:31  <Rubidium> @calc 640/700/2.5*24*31
13:36:31  <DorpsGek> Rubidium: 272.091428571
13:37:10  <Roujin> hmm, what's that number?
13:37:13  <Rubidium> @calc 640/700/3*24*31
13:37:13  <DorpsGek> Rubidium: 226.742857143
13:37:50  <Rubidium> Roujin: single-headed Chimaera, the second is double headed theoretical max trains per month
13:37:59  <Rubidium> @calc 480/700/2.5*24*31
13:37:59  <DorpsGek> Rubidium: 204.068571429
13:38:13  <Rubidium> ^ single headed pegasus
13:38:24  <Rubidium> so with the normal vehicles you can't reach it
13:38:51  <Rubidium> it = 255
13:39:12  <Roujin> so... way to go is keep uint8 and account for overflow?
13:39:47  <Rubidium> so I'd say just cap it at 255, but make a comment that with vehicles smaller or faster than the Chimaera it could overflow
13:39:48  <Roujin> i.e. - num++;  + if (num < 255) num++;
13:40:04  <Rubidium> of use the overflowsafe type
13:40:48  <Roujin> which type would that be?
13:41:32  <Rubidium> the one called OverflowSafeInt
13:41:55  <Rubidium> though that's maybe too complex for there
13:42:30  <Rubidium> I'd use if (num < MAX_UVALUE(num)) num++;
13:43:19  <Rubidium> or at least something so changing the type of num updates the max value automagically
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13:44:00  <Ammler> highest number here is 55
13:45:18  <Eddi|zuHause> make a newgrf engine with length 3/8, speed 65000, long line with no signals, pixel-place the vehicles behind each other so they don't crash, and hit "start all"
13:45:29  <Roujin_> I'd use if (num < MAX_UVALUE(num)) num++; <-- that would be MAX_UVALUE([type_of_num]), no?
13:45:53  <Rubidium> well, type_of_num doesn't automagically change
13:46:10  <Rubidium> maybe MAX_UVALUE(typeof(num)) works
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13:48:49  <Roujin_> error C3861: "typeof": Bezeichner wurde nicht gefunden.
13:49:09  <Roujin_> erm, sorry for the german :P
13:49:19  <glx> msvc user detected :)
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13:51:09  <SpComb> localized compiler errors D:
13:51:20  <Ammler> oh, 61
13:52:38  <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: months vary in length ;)
13:52:45  <Ammler> monthly stat isn't that exact
13:52:52  <Roujin_> Ammler: what kind of trains? I reached 144 in a specific test game
13:52:56  <Ammler> shouldn't you make it daily?
13:53:09  <Ammler> 3 tile maglev
13:53:16  <Eddi|zuHause> and keep in mind that people might use the daylength patch
13:53:20  <Roujin_> daily??
13:53:37  <Roujin_> this day: 1 train, last day: 0 trains
13:53:40  <Eddi|zuHause> possibly, make it configurable ;)
13:53:51  <Ammler> Roujin_: well numberOfTrains/daysOfMonth
13:54:36  <Eddi|zuHause> day, week, month, ITiM hours
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13:55:26  <Eddi|zuHause> number of trains per ITiM days would imho be a much more useful statistics than a "month"
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13:55:43  <Roujin_> only when using that patch, though
13:55:46  <Swallow> a patch should be against trunk, not against <insert some patch here>
13:56:25  <Eddi|zuHause> it should not be "against <patch>", but maybe it should be considered "extendible to support <patch>"
13:57:14  <Eddi|zuHause> it is not a primary goal, but maybe a secondary
13:57:39  <Ammler> Roujin_: I bet, you aren't able to make a working (with real transport) network, which has >100
13:58:11  <Ammler> hmm, forget my last line
13:58:25  <Roujin_> just found one in your game? :D
13:59:00  <Ammler> no, but you guys can make 100 mines together and call that network ;-)
13:59:19  <Alberth> Roujin_, Rubidium: Upper limit query:
14:01:11  <Ammler> 61 is still the highest here, but really cool patch :-)
14:01:23  <Ammler> I have no WP <40
14:01:26  <Roujin_> Alberth: uhm, I think we already have MAX_UVALUE for that in openttd..
14:01:42  <Ammler> (WP on ML)
14:01:51  <TinoDidriksen> The problem isn't getting the value; the problem is getting the type, portably.
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14:08:55  <Ammler> Roujin_: is that patch "client"-side?
14:09:09  <Ammler> (only)
14:09:29  <Roujin_> no, it changes the savegame
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14:10:01  <Ammler> hmm, just liked to suggest it for pm's pack
14:10:24  <Roujin_> what pack? wwottdgd?
14:10:26  <energetic> if you want to remove the 8co/ 11 clients limit, can you let ordinary 063 clients connect to aserver having this limit removed?
14:10:49  <Yexo> energetic: no
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14:11:00  <energetic> bummer
14:11:06  <Yexo> the limit is removed in trunk, so you won't have that problem in 0.7
14:11:22  <Roujin_> energetic: use nightly, limit raised to 15 comp / 255 players
14:11:24  <energetic> nice!
14:11:57  <energetic> Roujin_: we can but our clients cant :)
14:12:27  *** Swallow [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
14:12:28  <Roujin_> well then you'll have to wait until 0.7 :P
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14:13:32  <dihedral> energetic, why can your clients not?
14:13:45  <dihedral> are those then even the type of clients you want to attract
14:14:00  <dihedral> why do servers have to follow the clients can do?
14:14:46  <dihedral> sounds like you just host a server because of the few clients you have :-P
14:15:03  <Roest> and whats wrong about that?
14:15:03  <dihedral> for those windows users there is by the something like windowsupdate
14:15:07  <dihedral> or autoupdate
14:15:11  <dihedral> talk with zuu
14:15:35  <dihedral> Roest, good point
14:15:37  <dihedral> :-)
14:16:21  <planetmaker> hello
14:17:06  <energetic> requiring a patch isnt that cool
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14:18:11  <energetic> i can make a patch so we can play pong inside ottd. But that would go past the point of having trunk.
14:18:38  <energetic> cool by default is way cooler ;)
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14:19:07  <dihedral> energetic, requireing a nightly is not that tricky
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14:19:45  <energetic> you get ottdcoop circumstances that way. not coo.
14:19:53  <dihedral> ...?
14:20:03  <dihedral> what are 'openttdcoop circumstances'?
14:20:05  <Roest> :)
14:20:08  <energetic> every other 5min another client required
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14:20:41  <dihedral> energetic, the time you chose to upgrade your server is still left up to you
14:21:00  <dihedral> and you seem not to know how seldom an upgrade actually takes place at coop
14:21:19  <energetic> ( no pun intended btw)
14:21:59  <energetic> well, times I played there, I had (check program files dir) 18 updates needed to continue to play
14:22:03  <energetic> over about 3 nights
14:22:40  <energetic> since ottd doesnt have a version control system for endusers, its a pain. At elast: I experienced it as a pain.
14:22:44  <dihedral> energetic, requiring a grfpack is something else
14:22:53  <dihedral> than needing a certain revision
14:23:02  <dihedral> if you dont want to upgrade often, then dont
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14:23:37  <energetic> well, if any player with the latest downloaded ottd can join, no prob
14:23:50  <energetic> then nigtlies etc are great
14:23:53  <Ammler> energetic: that is something like a "pre" noob filter
14:24:14  <energetic> but right now they cant join a r10 game when they have a r9 clients
14:24:24  <dihedral> energetic, duh!
14:24:29  <energetic> why duh?
14:24:34  <dihedral> can you join 0.5.3 with 0.6.3?
14:24:37  <Roest> isn't that what versions are for?
14:24:38  <dihedral> nope
14:24:38  <energetic> as user it is very weird
14:24:45  <dihedral> ??
14:25:00  <energetic> that you have ottd, you cannot join ottd games!
14:25:14  <dihedral> energetic, you seem to be missing a point
14:25:18  <Roest> energetic first you sounded like someone who knew what he was saying, now it's getting a little weird
14:25:18  <dihedral> as Roest pointed out
14:25:20  <dihedral> VERSIONS
14:25:36  <dihedral> Roest, like a small fly
14:25:49  <energetic> from a technical and dev perspective it is completely logical r9 users cant join r10 games
14:26:03  <dihedral> or vice versa
14:26:06  <energetic> but from user perspective its totally illogical behaviour
14:26:17  <energetic> they have ottd, and they cant join ottd games
14:26:22  <dihedral> for that kind of users there are tools
14:26:23  <energetic> its as simple as that
14:26:26  <dihedral> search the forums
14:26:37  <Yexo> energetic: have you seen any user trying to join a call of duty 1 server while he has call of duty 2?
14:26:37  <dihedral> energetic, + it works on openttdcoop
14:26:50  <dihedral> nice on Yexo
14:26:50  <Yexo> it's exactly the same here
14:27:12  <energetic> well, major versions are clear to users
14:27:19  <energetic> they are marketed as such, too.
14:27:31  <energetic> basically as different games
14:27:39  <Roest> btw on a totally unrelated note, 250000 scoville is really hot and i should've taken less
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14:28:13  <OsteHovel^EEE> When you browse/selects content to download in content downloading you shoud be able to select/deselect packages with <space>
14:28:15  <Ammler> energetic: it is mostly also possible here
14:28:29  <Ammler> just use --revision
14:28:40  <energetic> i know
14:28:42  <Rubidium> OsteHovel^EEE: space is already used for the filter
14:28:45  <dihedral> Ammler, energetic will say he cannot start openttd with --revision :-D
14:28:45  <Rubidium> use enter instead
14:29:09  <OsteHovel^EEE> hmm
14:29:15  <OsteHovel^EEE> Hear me out now...
14:29:20  <dihedral> no
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14:29:35  <energetic> but stupid windows users who bought the game in 94 now wanting to play ottd on the interwebz dont
14:29:46  <energetic> they just wanna click 'join'
14:29:50  <Roest> bad for them
14:29:51  <energetic> its all they know.
14:30:22  <Yexo> energetic: then using a nightly prevents such users from joining your server, that's only an advantage :)
14:30:22  <Sacro> energetic: well they should learn
14:30:31  <Sacro> Yexo: agreed
14:30:33  <OsteHovel^EEE> When i open the Window "Content Downloading" i can click on the filter textbox and enter text fine... but when you set your focus to the List with the packages you can browse up and down with the Arrow keys and Use Enter to select, can you just add space to be able to add packages when the Package list is in Focus...
14:30:44  <energetic> depends on what public you want to attract
14:30:46  <Roest> my mother is 71 and plays world of warcraft, as long that's possible no stupid windows user excuse has any value
14:30:56  <dihedral> energetic, suit yourself if those are the users you want to host games for
14:31:11  <dihedral> they will be the same stupid way when needing help or have ideas for your server
14:31:34  <energetic> well, i think the userbase of ~30 yo ppl having played ttdx and now want to continue playing ottd is quite large
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14:31:57  <dihedral> energetic, continue - you are starting to amuse others ;-0
14:32:01  <dihedral> ;-)
14:32:27  * energetic is sounding like he is flaming. Thats not /me's intention :)
14:32:38  <Roest> why again aren't you just hosting a 0.6.3 game then?
14:34:22  <energetic> never said I aint
14:34:24  <dihedral> Roest, he's tooooo .... energetic for that
14:34:33  <Roujin_> OsteHovel^EEE: uhm, did I understand you correctly that you suggest making "space" select packages in the content list?
14:35:29  <OsteHovel^EEE> When you have the list in focus(when you can press the Up arrow or Down arrow key to jump between content) it shoud be able to press enter or/and space to select a package...
14:35:57  <OsteHovel^EEE> today you can press enter to select a package but cant you include space as alternative key
14:36:15  <Roujin_> ah yes I see. Well it was space before. I changed it to enter with my patch that added the filter textbox
14:36:39  <Roujin_> because back then the widget focus patch was not yet in trunk
14:37:03  <TinoDidriksen> Space is more common. Enter accepts your current choices and closes the dialog, usually.
14:37:06  <Roujin_> it should not be hard to change it back to space (or both space and enter)
14:37:26  <Roujin_> TinoDidriksen: I know, but space was needed for the textbox and enter wasn't
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15:21:38  <kingj> Uhoh
15:21:56  <kingj> Accidentally select Giant Screenshot on a 2048x2048 map instead of normal screenshot by mistake, this could take a while...
15:22:24  <Rubidium> it will ;)
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15:25:12  <kingj> Ah, done
15:25:20  <kingj> 426mb heh
15:25:33  <dihedral> what? only?
15:25:49  <dihedral> that more sounds like 256^2
15:26:18  <kingj> No, i'm playing on a 2048^2 map
15:26:22  <planetmaker> @calc 64*32*8*2048*2048
15:26:22  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 68719476736
15:26:27  <dihedral> the last giant screeshot i took of a 1024^2 map was 1.5GB
15:26:43  <Rubidium> @calc 256*64*256*32
15:26:43  <DorpsGek> Rubidium: 134217728
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15:26:50  <Rubidium> @calc 256*64*256*32/1048576
15:26:50  <DorpsGek> Rubidium: 128
15:26:58  <kingj> It's the United Kingdom scenario from
15:27:01  <Rubidium> dihedral: 256x256 is only 128 MB uncompressed
15:27:14  <dihedral> was close enough :-D
15:27:22  <Rubidium> @calc 2048*64*2048*32/1048576
15:27:22  <DorpsGek> Rubidium: 8192
15:27:31  <dihedral> then try the 512^2 :-P
15:27:33  <Rubidium> 2048x2048 is 8GB uncompressed
15:27:47  <kingj> And if I drag track from one corner to another, comes to 2047 units, probably missed one square on start of click
15:27:53  <Elukka> downloading the game and the scenario needs much less than a giant screenshot of a big map :D
15:28:31  <dihedral> kingj, you did not
15:29:44  <kingj> So why is my screenshot not as big as you predict? I let it run compeltely, didn't terminate OTTD. Running the latest binary Cargopax build
15:30:16  <planetmaker> some png has some compression afaik
15:30:32  <dihedral> aye
15:30:52  <planetmaker> works nicely for non populated maps :)
15:31:00  <planetmaker> few tres
15:31:03  <planetmaker> *trees
15:31:22  <Rubidium> :O a planetmaker ;)
15:31:41  <dihedral> thankfully he does not make giant screenshots
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15:31:49  <planetmaker> :) a planetmaker playing with generic apple types :)
15:32:01  <planetmaker> and there's a rubidium :)
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15:32:51  <kingj> Cargopax on a map this size can get a bit insane :P, one station has 12k passengers and I just can't get any more trains though the station
15:33:07  <planetmaker> KingJ: make it bigger :)
15:33:56  <kingj> It's already got 15 platforms ;)
15:34:06  <dihedral> that's a small station
15:34:25  <kingj> 9k of the passengers want to go to another nearby station though, and the only route there is a 4 platform station. I can't make the station any bigger because then the track will overload
15:34:35  <kingj> and I can't build more track without destroying central london :P
15:34:44  <Timitry> build more tracks then ;-)
15:35:14  <planetmaker> KingJ: Build trans and busses
15:35:16  <Elukka> who cares about central london
15:35:18  <planetmaker> *trams
15:36:07  <dihedral> if it aint got a big ben, it aint london :-P
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15:36:40  <kingj> Will a lighthouse suffice as symbolism for it ? :P
15:37:04  <planetmaker> no. You'll have to learn grf coding and make one :P
15:37:10  <dihedral> tower bridge?
15:37:52  <kingj> dihedral: Blown up
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15:38:53  <kingj> I also reshaped the Thames because my hovercraft made ugly turns
15:39:01  <kingj> They also tend to clump together
15:43:25  <Roujin__> hahaha loooool
15:43:44  <dihedral> Roujin__, theres one for realism :-D
15:44:05  <Roujin__> dihedral: what? no I mean something else
15:44:35  <dihedral> oh :-(
15:44:41  <Roujin__> okay, it needed a couple of hundreds of clicks but I now have a scenario which exceeds the 255 trains
15:44:56  <Roujin__> I managed 200 in 12 game days
15:45:00  <Roujin__> maglev3 engines
15:45:08  <dihedral> oh my
15:45:13  <dihedral> are you still at that topic ;-)
15:45:31  <Roujin__> yes, I needed up until now to build that scenario :P
15:46:17  * dihedral pats Roujin__  on the head
15:48:29  <Roujin__> building 300 depots in a row and then building an engine in each takes time.. :(
15:50:06  <Roujin__> although I coded myself a little hack that automatically sets all the trains to "ignore signals" so I didn't have to set this for each train, one by one. :P
15:51:00  <Aali> you could just use the vehicle console commands patch
15:51:58  <Roujin__> well, a little FOR_ALL_VEHICLES did the job in my case..
15:52:13  <Roujin__> but thanks for the tip
15:52:50  <Aali> keep it with my clientside patches, almost never use it
15:53:02  <Aali> but for some odd cases its a life saver
15:57:24  <dihedral> Roest, <- he has way more problems than he mentions :-D
15:57:48  <Rubidium> I'm trying to download Open Transport Tycoon, however, while the site is working quickly and flawlessly, the download itself is incredibly slow and sometimes doesn't work at all.
15:57:51  <Rubidium> I assume the problem is with the subdomain Both nightly and the normal build don't work.
15:57:54  <Rubidium> oeps ;)
15:58:07  <Rubidium> stoopid mouse
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15:59:06  <dihedral> hehe
15:59:39  <Rubidium> still it's strange that he has the problem as AFAIK mirrors aren't working yet (i.e. you won't be sent to a mirror)
16:01:19  <dihedral> my definition of "not working" would be best described with Celestar :-P
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16:42:08  <kingj> Does income rise at the same rate as costs with inflation turned on?
16:42:41  <glx> that's how inflation works yes
16:44:02  <Rubidium> no, it doesn't
16:44:05  <kingj> Good, just checking
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16:59:03  <Roujin> any suggestions what I should change the "Most trains in one month" string into to be consistent with the other changes? i.e. "Trains passed this month:" -> "Traffic this month"; "Trains passed last month:" -> "Traffic last month:"; "Most trains in one month:" -> ???
16:59:33  <Eddi|zuHause> Peak traffic?
16:59:51  <Roujin> I currently have "Maximum traffic", does that sound strange?
16:59:54  <Eddi|zuHause> Maximum traffic?
17:00:52  <Elukka> i think peak traffic sounds a bit better
17:01:40  <Roujin> but, is it also descriptive?
17:02:09  <Elukka> well, it means the same
17:03:20  <Prof_Frink> Nah, Peak traffic is a queue going to Stanage.
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17:05:03  <Wolf01> does anybody of you develops for windows mobile?
17:05:21  <dihedral> yuck :-P
17:05:25  <Alberth> Roujin: Most traffic in one month?
17:05:53  <Wolf01> I have troubles with an application which should use a database
17:06:04  <Roujin> Alberth: that's good
17:06:38  <Alberth> Roujin: I was thinking along the lines of 'busiest', but that doesn't come out right
17:07:12  <Roujin> now there's one more thing that came to my mind..
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17:07:38  <Roujin> currently the "most traffic in one month" counter is only updated every month
17:08:03  <Elukka> how about "most traffic per month"?
17:08:43  <Alberth> Roujin: "in one month" can be interpreted as such imho
17:08:58  <Roujin> i.e. if the month that just passed had more trains than what already is in there, overwrite that.
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17:09:42  <Roujin> now, an idea I had is, should it maybe also already overwrite that value during a running month?
17:10:43  <Alberth> probably, otherwise it takes up-to a month before the first update
17:10:56  <Roujin> i.e. max traffic == 15, and now the 16th train this month passes the waypoint; "traffic this month" jumps from 15 to 16, should "maximum traffic" now also display 16? or not?
17:11:28  <Eddi|zuHause> imho, yes.
17:11:29  <Alberth> I'd think so, otherwise 'maximum' is a bit weird
17:12:10  <Alberth> You'd have to say 'maximum in the past' or so
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17:17:45  <kosher> Hello
17:18:27  <kosher> I have a little problem with OpenTTD 0.6.3 and GRVTS
17:19:18  <kosher> I just got a possibility to use the 2-section coal truck but. However, it fails to find its way to loading station.
17:19:55  <kosher> Can anybody help me?
17:19:57  <frosch123> you have to use drive-through stops for multi-part vehicles
17:21:55  <kosher> Okay, thanks for help.
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17:37:27  <Roujin> thanks for your input guys, put a new version in the flyspray task
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18:10:10  <petern> am i here?
18:10:15  <petern> here i am
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18:10:40  <fjb> Be glad you are thinking.
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18:21:17  <Ammler> How to propose wiki pages for deleting?
18:22:13  <Ammler> like this and the sub (de):
18:22:19  *** |Japa| [~Japa@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:22:48  <Ammler> a failed try ;-)
18:23:50  <Ammler> this one was for the new website only:
18:25:43  <frosch123> Ammler:
18:26:31  <Ammler> guite many there :-)
18:26:34  <Ammler> q
18:26:40  <frosch123> hmm, though I could just delete it...
18:26:53  <Ammler> I was the only author
18:26:58  <Ammler> (mainly)
18:27:24  <Ammler> and About page is now on the official page
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18:30:07  <frosch123> Ammler: but you added 0.7 stuff which is not yet on the homepage
18:30:36  <frosch123> and I think translating important stuff like the readme is not too bad either, though noone did it
18:31:23  <Ammler> imo, it should be done by the official translators
18:32:02  <Ammler> noone would like my german
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18:32:12  <Sacro> i don't like germans
18:32:21  <Ammler> well
18:33:06  <Sacro> :p
18:33:28  <Ammler> frosch123: I added some more:
18:33:45  <Ammler> but I guess, the webpage will go to trunk and patched that way, soon?
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18:35:36  <Ammler> I just liked to remove redundancy...
18:36:09  <Ammler> (my)
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18:38:54  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r15478 /trunk/src/lang/ (9 files): (log message trimmed)
18:38:54  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2009-02-14 18:38:28
18:38:54  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: catalan - 3 fixed by arnaullv (3)
18:38:54  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: finnish - 2 fixed by UltimateSephiroth (2)
18:38:54  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: french - 2 fixed by glx (2)
18:38:55  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: hungarian - 3 fixed by IPG (1), alyr (2)
18:38:55  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: italian - 3 fixed, 4 changed by lorenzodv (7)
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18:55:25  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r15479 /trunk/src/ai/api/ai_industrytype.hpp: -Fix: Documentation of AIIndustryType::CanBuildIndustry().
18:55:39  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r15480 /trunk/src/ (56 files in 3 dirs): -Feature(tte): Show the cargo subtype in the vehicle details window.
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19:41:39  <Roest> blah paper rejected
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19:49:37  <Rubidium> Roest: then supply the printing works with more dyes
19:50:34  <Roest> well the good part is i didnt write, they just took my work and made a paper out of it, so i didn't have any more work with it
19:50:46  <Roest> but would've been nice if it did get accepted
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20:03:32  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: yexo * r15481 /trunk/src/ai/api/ (9 files): -Fix [NoAI]: Make sure AIs can't call functions they shouldn't call.
20:07:00  *** Lakie [~Lakie@] has joined #openttd
20:07:16  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: yexo * r15482 /trunk/src/ai/api/ (ai_company.hpp ai_road.hpp): -Fix [NoAI]: Typos in api docs.
20:16:00  *** kd5pbo [~kd5pbo@] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
20:17:35  <OsteHovel^EEE> compiling using a 1.6 ghz Atom cpu takes ALOT OF TIME
20:17:38  *** db48x [~db48x@] has joined #openttd
20:18:22  <db48x> is there a simple way to add a new sign to the map?
20:18:48  <db48x> I want to debug a patch I'm working on, and the easiest way to do that would be to put a label on certain tiles, much like the town names
20:18:55  <glx> OsteHovel^EEE: using which compiler?
20:19:04  <OsteHovel^EEE> GCC...
20:19:07  <OsteHovel^EEE> linux
20:20:06  <Eddi|zuHause> db48x: src/signs_func.h:void PlaceProc_Sign(TileIndex tile); <- something like this?
20:21:26  <OsteHovel^EEE> i found it its faster compiling at my server farm at home(just about 11 ghz in total) using GCC & DistCC and then transfeer it over to my laptop..
20:23:49  <FauxFaux> REALLY?!
20:23:58  <FauxFaux> 11 > 1.6?  STOP THE PRESSES
20:25:13  <db48x> Eddi|zuHause: kinda. I just want to give it a char* though
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20:28:03  <db48x> seems like RenameSign does that
20:28:46  <OsteHovel^EEE> :P
20:28:51  <Yexo> db48x: what patch are you working on?
20:29:24  <OsteHovel^EEE> i compress the openttd program file using lzma before transfering and then its about 1.2 mb
20:31:17  <OsteHovel^EEE> I cant resize the openttd window...
20:31:27  <OsteHovel^EEE> are openttd resizing disabled in nightly?
20:31:42  <Rubidium> OsteHovel^EEE: allegro doesn't support resizing
20:31:46  <OsteHovel^EEE> aaa
20:31:46  <OsteHovel^EEE> ok
20:31:49  <OsteHovel^EEE> :(
20:31:59  <db48x> Yexo:
20:32:01  <OsteHovel^EEE> is SDL or Allegro faster?
20:32:17  <Rubidium> yes
20:32:21  <OsteHovel^EEE> *What is the fastest of SDL or Allegro?
20:32:26  <FauxFaux> Openttd will run fine on your seriously overkill 1.6ghz...
20:32:39  <Rubidium> no clue
20:33:40  <OsteHovel^EEE> OpenTTD will run just fine on a EEE 701 that has a underclocked cpu that running at 630 mhz
20:33:44  <Eddi|zuHause> FauxFaux: someone in the german forum is reporting that his game and sound gets choppy on 3GHz
20:33:54  <OsteHovel^EEE> i was talking about the compiling time that was slow...
20:34:05  <OsteHovel^EEE> the game is running at 100%
20:35:05  <FauxFaux> Hehe.  I'm reasonably sure it runs fine on my original (900mhz celeron) eee, from the debian packages.
20:35:41  <OsteHovel^EEE> the eee 900mhz cpu is underclocked by asus at 630mhz but with a module you can just clock it up again.... currenttly i have a eee 901 with 1.6 ghz atom cpu...
20:37:16  <OsteHovel^EEE> my pda has a 528 mhz cpu (Qualcomm cpu)
20:38:51  <Rubidium> bragging about your hardware?
20:39:22  * Rubidium won't be buying a EEE anyway (ever)
20:39:46  <FauxFaux> Perfect for irc on the move.
20:40:17  <Rubidium> my fingers are incompatible with the keyboard
20:41:18  <dihedral> there are nicer things for irc on the move, if you should be that desperate
20:43:00  *** mode/#openttd [+v DorpsGek] by ChanServ
20:43:00  *** mode/#openttd [+v Belugas] by ChanServ
20:43:00  *** mode/#openttd [+v Rubidium] by ChanServ
20:43:03  *** mode/#openttd [+v Darkvater] by ChanServ
20:47:58  <OsteHovel^EEE> Rubidium: the keyboard is small and the some of the keys are in the wrong place...
20:50:15  <db48x> yay
20:50:19  <db48x>,%201st%20Jan%201950%231.png
20:52:49  <OsteHovel^EEE> cool db48x
20:53:10  <db48x> for future reference:
20:53:12  <db48x> CommandCost CmdPlaceSign(TileIndex tile, DoCommandFlag flags, uint32 p1, uint32 p2, const char *text);
20:53:12  <db48x> void debug(char *str, TileIndex tile)
20:53:12  <db48x> {
20:53:12  <db48x>   CmdPlaceSign(tile, DC_EXEC, 0, 0, str);
20:53:12  <db48x> }
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21:00:29  <db48x> cool, I found the bug
21:00:39  <db48x> it works much better now:,%201st%20Jan%201950%232.png
21:06:09  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: yexo * r15483 /trunk/ (5 files in 2 dirs): -Change [API CHANGE]: Remove AIIndustry::GetProduction, use AIIndustry::GetLastMonthProduction instead.
21:06:48  *** OsteHovel^EEE [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
21:07:09  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: yexo * r15484 /trunk/src/ai/api/ (ai_company.cpp ai_company.hpp ai_company.hpp.sq): -Change [API CHANGE]: Remove AICompany::GetCompanyName and SetCompanyName. They've been replaced with GetName and SetName.
21:07:39  <Elukka> ECS spams way too many fishing grounds...
21:08:49  <Elukka> one largeish lake ought not to have 10 :D
21:10:02  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: yexo * r15485 /trunk/src/ai/api/ (ai_industry.cpp ai_industry.hpp ai_industry.hpp.sq): -Change [API CHANGE]: Split AIIndustry::HasHeliportAndDock and GetHeliportAndDockLocation in HasHeliport/HasDock and GetHeliportLocation/GetDockLocation.
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21:11:25  <OsteHovel^EEE> "sudo killall sh" wasent the smartest thing i did
21:11:56  <Rubidium> OsteHovel^EEE: "sudo kill -9 -1" is better
21:12:05  <Eddi|zuHause> could have tried "kill 1" instead ;)
21:12:06  <OsteHovel^EEE> :p
21:13:27  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: yexo * r15486 /trunk/src/ai/api/ (ai_town.cpp ai_town.hpp ai_town.hpp.sq): -Change [API CHANGE]: Remove AITown::GetMaxTownID.
21:13:56  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: yexo * r15487 /trunk/src/ai/api/ (ai_event_types.cpp ai_event_types.hpp ai_event_types.hpp.sq): -Change [API CHANGE]: Remove the never implemented function AIEventVehicleCrashed::CloneCrashedVehicle.
21:14:10  <Elukka> hmm
21:14:25  <Elukka> am i correct in thinking pikka's basic industries work with scenarios with default industries?
21:14:28  <Aali> yay, AI breakers!
21:15:16  <Aali> Elukka: either the scenario has default industries or it has pikka's basic industries, make up your mind
21:15:37  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: yexo * r15488 /trunk/ (15 files in 2 dirs): -Change [API CHANGE]: Add support for distant-join stations.
21:15:38  <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: industry sets do not replace default industries, they only disable their appearance
21:15:38  <Aali> a scenario is just a savegame
21:15:44  <Elukka> if i load a scenario with default industries, they have stuff like plastic and fuel oil which does not normally exist
21:15:54  <Elukka> wait, i'm actually using a grf called UK renewal industries which may not be the same
21:16:16  <dihedral> ...
21:16:16  <Eddi|zuHause> i think that is an older version of PBI
21:16:33  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: yexo * r15489 /trunk/ (5 files in 2 dirs): -Change [API CHANGE]: Remove AIAirport::AirportAvailable. AIAirport::IsValidAirportType now only returns true for available AirportTypes.
21:16:55  <Elukka> there aren't fuel depots, of course, but otherwise it seems to work...
21:17:46  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: yexo * r15490 /trunk/ (6 files in 2 dirs): -Change [API CHANGE]: Remove AIBridge::GetYearAvailable. AIBridge::IsValidBridge now only returns true for available bridges.
21:18:17  <Elukka> looking over it quickly, i dont think loading this on default scenarios breaks any production chains
21:18:26  <Elukka> but i still get stockpiles and some modified industries, yay
21:19:53  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: yexo * r15491 /trunk/ (4 files in 2 dirs): -Change [API CHANGE]: AIMarine::BuildWaterDepot now accepts a front tile instead of a bool is_vertical (frosch).
21:22:54  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: yexo * r15492 /trunk/ (5 files in 2 dirs): -Change [API CHANGE]: Split AIVehicle::MoveWagon in MoveWagon and MoveWagonChain (frosch).
21:24:54  <db48x> odd
21:25:02  <db48x> my debug function sometimes crashes the game
21:25:32  <Eddi|zuHause> "Today is big Api-Breaking Day"?
21:25:43  <Rubidium> don't execute the command with the wrong company I guess
21:25:53  <glx> better break all AIs once
21:26:13  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, i suppose ;)
21:26:48  <Eddi|zuHause> might in the long term be less maintenance than providing a backwards-compatibility API
21:27:52  <db48x> Rubidium: actually, I think it's trying to place a sign on INVALID_TILE :{
21:27:59  <db48x> :(
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21:28:23  <db48x> anyway
21:28:28  <db48x> the patch itself works
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21:30:37  <glx> db48x: it should not crash for that
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21:32:28  <db48x> openttd: /home/db48x/projects/openttd/trunk/src/tile_map.h:71: TileType GetTileType(TileIndex): Assertion `tile < MapSize()' failed.
21:32:58  <db48x> so it segfaulted, but only because of the assertion
21:33:12  <Rubidium> so, it didn't segfult
21:33:21  <Rubidium> it asserted
21:33:29  <Rubidium> which is something completely different
21:33:38  <Elukka> haha, i left a map running and forgot i had AI on
21:33:39  <db48x> well, the next line says "Segmentation Fault" ;)
21:33:50  <Elukka> the "alpha" (pre noAI) ai has actually connected just about everything
21:34:23  <Elukka> even with cargodest, most of them are making a nice profit
21:35:17  <db48x> so, who should or would like to review this?
21:38:46  <Roest> that guy --->
21:39:12  <db48x> heh
21:39:29  <Elukka> on my screen, that would be stan
21:39:56  <Eddi|zuHause> "someone"
21:39:57  <Rubidium> on my screen that would be the IRC equivalent to /dev/null
21:40:17  <Rubidium> @seen someone
21:40:17  <DorpsGek> Rubidium: someone was last seen in #openttd 1 year, 3 weeks, 0 days, 2 hours, 47 minutes, and 54 seconds ago: * Someone here is gay
21:41:11  <Elukka> statistically, more than one of us are gay
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21:41:50  <Roest> interesting, so the gay guy will fix your assertion
21:43:47  <Eddi|zuHause> they have to be useful for something
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21:47:34  <Nite_Owl> Hello all
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21:52:02  <db48x> hello
21:52:26  <Nite_Owl> Hello db48x
21:57:52  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: yexo * r15493 /trunk/bin/ai/regression/ (regression.nut regression.txt): -Fix (r15486): Forgot to update regression.
21:58:17  <Eddi|zuHause> the obligatory commit for every AI change :p
21:58:36  <glx> hehe
21:59:02  <planetmaker> what is this "regression" actually?
21:59:17  <frosch123> type "make regression"
21:59:23  <planetmaker> sorry, if it's an obvious or stupid question...
21:59:28  * planetmaker goes trying :)
21:59:41  <TrueBrain> planetmaker: what is 'a regression'? :)
21:59:49  <TrueBrain> (hint: wikipedia)
22:00:18  <Nite_Owl> going back to a previous state
22:00:23  <TrueBrain> Nite_Owl: how is your PC?
22:00:56  <glx> it's not his :)
22:01:11  <Nite_Owl> not mine - my cousins - I will be doing the work on it on either Monday or Tuesday
22:01:11  <TrueBrain> his cousins, or what ever it was :p
22:01:14  <TrueBrain> I don't really care ;)
22:01:49  <Nite_Owl> more research between now and then
22:02:34  <planetmaker> Thx, TrueBrain :)
22:02:51  <Nite_Owl> if all this fails the research will turn into what PC she should buy
22:03:46  <TrueBrain> planetmaker: yw (I like helping people with stating the obvious)
22:03:54  <planetmaker> hehe :)
22:03:55  <TrueBrain> Nite_Owl: a 300 euro one :p The average household doesn't require any more :p
22:06:18  <Nite_Owl> True - I will go over with her what she wants if it comes to that
22:06:23  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: yexo * r15494 /trunk/ (5 files in 2 dirs): -Change [API CHANGE]: Split AIRoad::BuildRoadStation in BuildRoadStation and BuildDriveThroughRoadStation.
22:06:36  <Yexo> that were all the api changes for today :)
22:07:05  <TrueBrain> Yexo: you are insane ;)
22:07:28  <Yexo> latest change was by frosch123 btw
22:07:55  <Yexo> TrueBrain: well, the distant-join was needed, so better do all of them at the same time
22:08:12  <TrueBrain> very true :)
22:08:21  <TrueBrain> any chance of the major/minor version? :p
22:08:55  <Yexo> glx is against that
22:09:08  <Yexo> haven't heard other opinions yet
22:09:50  <TrueBrain> fair enough ;)
22:10:00  <TrueBrain> it is only useful for library, and when extending libraries .. shouldn't happen too often ;)
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22:24:09  <TrueBrain> night all
22:24:15  <Rubidium> slaap zacht
22:24:22  <OsteHovel^EEE> night TrueBrain
22:25:25  <planetmaker> night TrueBrain , night all
22:26:05  <Nite_Owl> later TrueBrain & planetmaker
22:27:06  <dihedral> [23:25]  <Rubidium> slaap zacht <- slap zack? :-P
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22:59:42  <BFKeil> Seems like y'all are having a busy day today!  Already 19 revisions!
23:02:21  <BFKeil> Anyway, I was just playing with some ECS vectors, and I noticed that ever since r15422 I don't get any money for any of the new cargos.  They work just fine if I keep the genworld.cpp from 15421, but that apparently causes some problems other places (FS#2623).
23:06:05  <Yexo> BFKeil: confirmed, I'll try to fix it
23:06:31  <Rubidium> @commit 15422
23:06:31  <DorpsGek> Rubidium: Commit by rubidium :: r15422 /trunk/src (genworld.cpp openttd.cpp) (2009-02-08 23:06:56 UTC)
23:06:32  <DorpsGek> Rubidium: -Fix [FS#2623] (r15383): loading NewGRFs before copying the settings.
23:06:48  <Yexo> 15383 is causing more problems :(
23:06:51  <Rubidium> so revert r15422 and part of r15383 I'd say
23:07:49  <Yexo> maybe that's the best solution, but first I'm going to try to find the problem
23:08:09  <Rubidium> newgrfs must be set up before initialising the economy
23:12:20  <Rubidium> actually, also the difficulty settings etc.
23:12:26  <BFKeil> Awesome.  Thanks.
23:12:39  <Yexo> 15383 is completely wrong
23:15:22  <petern> Was that mine?
23:15:23  <Yexo> Rubidium: reverting both 15383 and 15422 ok?
23:15:24  <el_en> should it be "I'm going to try AND find the problem" in englishshsh?
23:15:30  <Rubidium> yup
23:17:45  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: yexo * r15495 /trunk/src/ (genworld.cpp genworld_gui.cpp openttd.cpp): -Revert (r15383,r15422): Loading NewGRFs depends on correct settings, but the economy can only be started after loading NewGRFs. In short: r15383 causes more problems then it's worth.
23:18:21  <Yexo> el_en: I've no idea, but that sounds like that you're sure you'll find the problem, which I wasn't
23:19:06  <BFKeil> I like both "try and find" and "try to find"... "try and find" is more colloquial, though.
23:21:36  <Ammler> is it possible to translate "try and find" to german?
23:22:10  <db48x> that's a silly question
23:22:35  <Rubidium> Ammler: try and find (out)
23:22:36  <Ammler> I guess, that just doesn't exist here.
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23:22:45  <BFKeil> Hmm... "Ich geh mal kurz versuchen, das zu finden"?
23:22:52  <db48x> Ammler: can you translate "try to find"?
23:22:54  <Ammler> that is try to find
23:22:57  <db48x> they mean the same thing
23:23:23  <el_en> Yexo: as far as i understand, "try and find" means the same as "try to find", but the first form seems to be what people actually say in american tv series at least.
23:23:38  <Yexo> quite possible
23:23:59  <el_en> and i don't think they are implying more certainty of finding than with "to".
23:24:04  <Yexo> as long as I'm understood I don't really care about it
23:24:46  <BFKeil> That seems about right.  Probably some regional variation on choice of "and" vs. "to", as well.  I know the form with "and" drives my father crazy.
23:25:40  <Rubidium> philosophically speaking "try to find" and "try and find" are not the same
23:26:16  <Ammler> if I translate "try and find" word by word, it is impossible
23:26:17  <Rubidium> the latter implies that you will find it, the former implies that you might find it
23:27:48  <Ammler> Rubidium: but if you will find it, you don't need to try.
23:28:26  <BFKeil> I don't believe that the "and" in "try and find" isn't the same as the "and" in "John likes Mary and John likes Sue".
23:29:11  <BFKeil> The second "and" is connecting two facts, coordinating them.
23:29:25  <Rubidium> welcome to the world of ambiguity
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23:29:46  <Yexo> BFKeil: if you state it as two facts, you have 1) You'll try . and 2) You'll find it
23:29:53  <Ammler> maybe the "and" inherits something like "and hopefully"
23:29:59  <BFKeil> The "and" in "try and find" seems to make the "find" somehow subordinate to "try."
23:32:03  <Nite_Owl> "try to find" is grammatically correct but "try and find" is an accepted colloquialism - again; as long as you are understood and not in an English class it matters little
23:32:13  <dihedral> try to find -> you make an effort to find something, with no guarentee
23:32:55  <Ammler> ..
23:33:06  <dihedral> "i'll try to find my sister"
23:33:12  <dihedral> you would not use "and" here
23:34:12  * Ammler is more interested in explainations for "and" :-)
23:34:41  <dihedral> find and try (e.g. software)
23:34:47  <dihedral> as you first need to find then try
23:35:34  <Ammler> still logical but we talked about try and find (try first)
23:39:30  <BFKeil> I'll leave y'all to try your hands at the Gordion knot that is English "and".  I'm going start playing r15495 :)
23:44:56  *** Sacro [~ben@adsl-87-102-39-137.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
23:46:03  <Ammler> I'm going to dream about AND
23:46:07  <Ammler> good night all
23:51:28  <Wolf01> 'night
23:51:39  *** Wolf01 [] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
23:56:52  <Elukka> one night when i closed my eyes
23:56:54  <Elukka> i saw ttd
23:56:55  <Elukka> really :/

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