Log for #openttd on 3rd March 2009:
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00:23:19  <Belugas> [17:35] <energetic> Hmm, a submitted bug was closed before I could answer decently....  <--- when it is due to be closed, it is time to close it.  sorry... but that's life
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05:33:34  <De_Ghosty> the tree gowing thing is awsome
05:33:40  <De_Ghosty> when you just make a giant map
05:33:40  <Forked> good morning
05:33:46  <De_Ghosty> and press forward
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08:49:50  <Arsonide> So
08:49:58  <Arsonide> Apparently there are some high resolution graphics for this somewhere
08:50:18  <Arsonide> But I'm not familiar with the terminology you guys I'm not even sure what I'm looking for.
08:57:38  <Eddi|zuHause> possibly you mean "32bpp extra zoom levels", but they are not supported in the official version
09:00:38  <Arsonide> They're gorgeous though
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09:06:23  <Arsonide> I assume using new graphics isn't allowed in multiplayer games?
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09:11:46  <petern> why not?
09:12:54  <Arsonide> In most games using modified files in multiplayer is prohibited. I guess it would affect this game less though.
09:13:03  <Arsonide> I was asking if it was or not
09:14:05  <Forked> modified files != newgrf I belive.. modified is probably "I changed the source code to cheat"?
09:16:12  <Arsonide> And newgrf is the term you use for these 32bpp extra zoom level graphics?
09:17:57  <petern> no
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09:26:45  <TSC> Arsonide: explains newgrf
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09:40:19  <planetmaker> hm... would it be possible to add a direct download link to the tars currently availble on Bananas?
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09:45:37  <H> Hello. :)
09:45:53  <Forked> or you could have tried:  /me e l l o .
09:45:54  *** H is now known as [wito]
09:46:18  <[wito]> I accidentally my nick. :P
09:47:12  <[wito]> anyway, has anyone had any success with express lines, e.g. to an airport, where the trains only load (and don't unload) on the way to the gathering point?
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09:57:20  <Timitry> Just use normal load + no unloading orders for the normal stations, and transfer orders at the airport
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10:01:44  <[wito]> Well
10:01:50  <[wito]> given stations A B C and airport D
10:02:09  <[wito]> with those orders, wouldn't that lead to loading at A, unloading and loading at B, etc. until transfer at D?
10:02:34  <[wito]> What I want is passengers from A, B and C delivered at D
10:02:48  <[wito]> without passengers from A at B or from B at C
10:02:50  <Eddi|zuHause> no, because you tell it to "not unload" at B
10:03:05  <[wito]> there is a no unloading order?
10:03:28  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, in 0.7.0, in the dropdown with "full load"
10:04:11  <[wito]> ah
10:04:17  <[wito]> I have 0.6.3
10:06:40  <[wito]> Also, am I understanding the documentation correctly in that station_spread is safe for huge values as long as you are using YAPF?
10:07:53  <Eddi|zuHause> probably not ;)
10:08:50  <[wito]> heh
10:08:56  <[wito]> large+sane, then?
10:09:03  <[wito]> (16-20)
10:09:17  <Eddi|zuHause> cargo delivery from houses to stations is probably the most influental part with station spread
10:09:33  <energetic> cargo from houses?
10:09:44  <Eddi|zuHause> passengers? mail?
10:10:01  * energetic checks definition of cargo....
10:10:10  <energetic> thought it was cargo==goods
10:10:13  <energetic> never mind
10:10:44  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, if you have a halfway modern computer, you should not have any real problems with station spreaD
10:11:06  <energetic> err my bad cargo=payload != goods
10:12:00  <Eddi|zuHause> i have no idea what a payload is
10:12:20  <energetic> great :) we be learning both something today ;)
10:13:15  <energetic> i was hoping on a scret trick to generate goods out of houses there
10:13:28  <Eddi|zuHause> you are misinterpreting my sentencethen
10:13:52  <energetic> no, i was using the wrong definition of cargo ;)
10:14:21  <Eddi|zuHause> i meant the other sentence
10:16:35  <energetic> which?
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10:22:48  <[wito]> I say!
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10:23:02  <[wito]> 0.7.0b1 is quite a lift from 0.6.3 ^_^
10:23:31  <[wito]> Now, if I could just figure out how PBS works, I might be able to build me some bypass tracks and express lanes!
10:23:57  <Noldo> put signals on safe waiting positions
10:24:02  <energetic> y
10:24:11  <energetic> i hate typing in the wrong window
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10:27:05  <planetmaker> Now, if I could just figure out how PBS works, I might be able to build me some bypass tracks and express lanes!
10:27:06  <planetmaker> [11:23]	<Noldo>	put signals on safe waiting positions <-- there and only there :)
10:27:19  <Noldo> good point :)
10:27:51  <planetmaker> :)
10:28:18  * planetmaker remembers several thread where people had problems with exactly that concept, ignoring the "not there" ;)
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10:29:39  <Ammler> station_spread warning is obsolete ;-)
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10:30:42  <planetmaker> wrt speed probably not. Though I don't care :P
10:30:44  <Ammler> (hmm, scroll down next time)
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10:35:13  <Ammler> yeah, you need around 3 pbs lines to replace a good old signal line :-)
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10:36:27  <petern>
10:36:49  <Noldo> yours?
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10:39:30  <petern> unfortunately not
10:39:37  <[wito]> hmm
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10:40:01  <[wito]> it appears my junction of choice (the cloverleaf) sort of breaks down with YAPP
10:40:30  <[wito]> that could be because the inner tracks aren't long enough, tho', and thus gives no safe waiting positions. :/
10:40:42  <Timitry> look at this page:
10:40:43  <Timitry>
10:40:48  <Timitry> just created it
10:41:00  <Timitry> and use the SECOND cloverleaf!
10:41:08  <Timitry> as written there...
10:41:44  <[wito]> ye
10:42:10  <[wito]> it's a bit...
10:42:18  <[wito]> involved. :P
10:43:17  <petern> argh
10:43:20  <petern> junction examples :(
10:44:01  <[wito]> cool!
10:44:04  <[wito]> Aqueducts!
10:44:21  <Ammler> Timitry: you should let trains using your junctions ;-)
10:44:22  <petern> cool, someone who can spell it ;)
10:45:55  <Eddi|zuHause> Timitry: why does it say "3 way" on the heading but then show "4 way" pictures?
10:50:16  <Eddi|zuHause> i hate the opengfx rails...
10:50:46  <Eddi|zuHause> they are too dark, and they look like rendered/anti-aliased without proper hinting, so everything gets somehow fuzzy
10:51:49  <petern> heh, yeah
10:53:09  <Noldo> beats a black box
10:54:13  <Eddi|zuHause> on the contrary, the existence of this "bad" track prevents designing a proper track graphic
10:54:21  <Ammler> did someone already make bad experience with path_backoff_interval = 1 ?
10:54:43  <Eddi|zuHause> what's that do?
10:54:45  <Noldo> Eddi|zuHause: how?
10:55:13  <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: it tells the train, how long it should wait to search for a new path
10:55:15  <Eddi|zuHause> Noldo: as in "we already have this one, we should focus on missing sprites first"
10:55:17  <Ammler> afaik
10:55:34  <Noldo> Eddi|zuHause: that's just delaying
10:55:35  <Ammler> default is 20
10:56:06  <Ammler> which we think is very high
10:56:59  <petern> you would
10:57:05  <petern> it's there for a reason, though
10:57:30  <Singaporekid> Is anyone still using IE6?
10:57:42  <Ammler> hmm, someone changed it on a 2k trains map
10:57:45  <Eddi|zuHause> it is the time to wait to retry reserving a path after one reservation failed, right?
10:57:51  <Ammler> he didn't see a difference
10:57:56  <Timitry> petern: "argh, junction examples :(" <--- still better than the crap currently on the wiki, and it's not for advanced players, anyway, and those are tutorials that might help new players to develop their own junctions
10:58:30  <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: yes, that was one of the reasons for some to not like pbs on fast tracks.
10:58:32  <Timitry> Eddi|zuHause: "why does it say "3 way" on the heading but then show "4 way" pictures?" ---> Copied the 3-way page, it's now fixed, thanks
10:59:19  <Ammler> with "1", they behave like the ususal signals
11:04:53  <[wito]> well
11:05:06  <[wito]> YAPP is going to take some getting used to
11:08:34  <Ammler> Timitry: junctions in use:
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11:09:29  <Eddi|zuHause> a few general rules of thumb with YAPP: 1) forget everything you know about signals, 2) replace entry signals with one-way signals, 3) replace two-way-exit signals with two-way path signals facing the station, remove one-way-exit signals, 4) less is more in many cases
11:10:00  <[wito]> Eddi|zuHause: the first one is the toughest to get your head around. :P
11:10:40  <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: 2way signals on terminus stations are just eye-candy
11:11:02  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but i like eye candy ;)
11:11:11  <[wito]> Ammler: that's only true with YAPP, no?
11:11:19  <[wito]> With YAPF it's still sensible, innit?
11:11:23  <Ammler> [wito]: of course :-)
11:11:45  <Ammler> " a few general rules of thumb with YAPP"
11:11:49  <[wito]> anyway, Ammler, got a 4-track terminus that demonstrates good YAPP usage? ;)
11:12:52  <Timitry>
11:12:55  <Timitry> Maybe?
11:12:57  <Ammler> "we" do not work with templates ;-)
11:13:03  <Eddi|zuHause> before:,%2029.%20Dez%201955.png
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11:13:14  <Timitry> just to give you an idea, of course
11:13:20  <Eddi|zuHause> after:,%201.%20Jul%201981.png
11:14:14  <Timitry> But you could just do like that with 2 more bays: , and you might want to use safe waiting positions for the exits
11:14:36  <[wito]> huh
11:14:42  <dihedral> ^^
11:14:49  <[wito]> Re: #Advanced_Terminus
11:14:53  <[wito]> The 10-bay one
11:14:53  <[wito]> wow
11:15:37  <Timitry> ugly 2*45°-curves
11:15:39  <Ammler> if you add safe waiting, you have also to double the line
11:16:06  <dihedral> else you lose a part of the game ^^
11:16:14  <Ammler> :-)
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11:17:10  <Ammler> safe waiting is like removing a signal on a line
11:17:35  <Eddi|zuHause> a terminus station of mine:,%2018.%20Dez%201982.png
11:18:53  <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: do you try to build "junctions" only at stations?
11:19:01  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
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11:19:06  <Eddi|zuHause> mostly
11:19:21  <Ammler> "belugas" style ;-)
11:19:46  <Eddi|zuHause> err...
11:19:48  <Eddi|zuHause> :p
11:20:14  <Eddi|zuHause> except this one:,%2021.%20Sep%201956.png
11:20:31  <Eddi|zuHause> was a "very few towns" game, so there was no way to place a station near there ;)
11:21:00  <Ammler> I really enjoyed the first cargodest game with celestar, as we tried to build also that style
11:21:01  <dihedral> Eddi|zuHause: that's a nice one
11:21:14  <Ammler> it is not very liked in coop zone.
11:21:15  <[wito]> pah
11:21:34  <[wito]> these stations and such makes my networks look almost childish in comparison. :(
11:22:24  <dihedral> just takes time wito
11:22:30  <Ammler> [wito]: it isn't the 1. game from Eddi|zuHause ;-)
11:22:39  <[wito]> hehe
11:22:58  <Ammler> !s/./st/
11:25:36  <Ammler> dbg: [sprite] Ignoring 1200 unused extra bytes from the sprite from /nars2w at position 2325874
11:26:27  <Ammler> does it help to report such things to pikka?
11:32:26  <Ammler> hmm, there is a bugfix release between...
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11:39:15  <planetmaker> <-- OMG, it's a wiki!
11:40:32  <SpComb> a wikipedia!
11:41:48  <[wito]> mail and goods are only "cash cows", ya?
11:41:54  <[wito]> or do they affect town growth?
11:42:48  <Eddi|zuHause> no, they affect town growth like any other transport service
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11:44:38  <[wito]> ah, ok
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11:46:32  <[wito]> wait
11:46:47  <[wito]> are you saying that iron ore delivered to a city steel mill will affect growth=?
11:46:55  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
11:47:04  <Noldo> if it's close enough?
11:47:28  <Eddi|zuHause> (if you want a "realism" argument there: the steel mill provides jobs, so it attracts its workers to move into the town)
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11:47:58  <[wito]> actually, steel mills accept passengers from the get-go, for whatever reason
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11:48:15  <Eddi|zuHause> that is unrelated ;)
11:48:26  <[wito]> so I guess Power Station would be a better example. :)
11:48:31  <Eddi|zuHause> and you never heard of the famous soylent green steel?
11:49:10  <Zahl> hmm... could faulty newgrfs cause memleaks?
11:49:27  <[wito]> soylent steel, eh?
11:49:57  <Eddi|zuHause> Zahl: no, grfs have only limited storage space
11:50:08  <Zahl> hm ok
11:55:00  <Zahl> Eddi|zuHause: which os are you running?
11:55:11  <Eddi|zuHause> why does that matter?
11:55:31  <dihedral> depending on the os, towns grow faster
11:55:58  <dihedral> + you get grf's for windows *w.grf which do not run on linux or mac :-D
11:56:10  <Zahl> well someone has to tell me its either normal that the game constantly uses more mem (about 8k per second with a big game) or tell me its my computer :P
11:56:58  <Rubidium> Zahl: as long as I can't reproduce it, I can't fix it
11:56:59  <dihedral> are you just missing mem or can you see that it is openttd?
11:57:19  <Zahl> Rubidium: i can send you my savegame... but as you already said, it might be a windows issue
11:57:28  <Zahl> dihedral: i can watch it in the taskmanager
11:57:52  <dihedral> well - if Rubidium looked at it ;-)
11:57:58  <Zahl> dihedral: it starts at ~30Meg and goes up to like 200 if i leave it running long enough
11:58:00  <Rubidium> the information the task manager shows can be misleading
11:58:26  <Zahl>
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11:58:46  <dihedral> Zahl: it's not the savegame!
11:58:56  <dihedral> oh - wait - you run a patched client?
11:59:19  <Zahl> dihedral: yes, but also happens in the trunk version
11:59:29  <Zahl> and the only think that i modifies is pretty much ticks per day
11:59:44  <Ammler> isn't it just that every cargo packet produce mem?
11:59:47  <dihedral> yes but? on a new game it also happensin trunk?
12:00:24  <Ammler> so you might have a lot waiting cargos :-)
12:00:52  <Zahl> dihedral: seems so, but i did not play a recent version with that many trains.. but anyways... loading this savegame in the trunk version should not behave like that anyway shoud it?
12:01:29  <dihedral> you play a patched client
12:01:29  <dihedral> totally not interesting
12:01:55  <dihedral> and you got Rubidiums opinion on it already - you should valuethat
12:02:21  <dihedral> rather than running around to everybody else who dares to engage in the conversation
12:02:25  <Zahl> well it will take me some time to get a savegame as big as that one in trunk but i'll try :-O
12:02:38  <dihedral> how many trains?
12:02:48  <Zahl> about 1k i think
12:03:25  <dihedral> then you could download a sav from openttdcoop games
12:03:48  <Ammler> Zahl: your save works with trunk
12:03:53  <planetmaker> indeed. E.g. get #131. It's only 600 or so, but 600 vehicles, too
12:04:06  <Zahl> i'll try that
12:04:12  <Ammler> uses 100% of my cpu
12:04:18  <planetmaker> :O
12:05:09  <Ammler> well 70%
12:05:40  <Ammler> but no mem
12:06:12  <Eddi|zuHause> i only know "no ma'am"
12:06:18  <dihedral> Zahl: works steady and fine for me
12:06:38  <Zahl> ...
12:06:44  <dihedral> but i am on a mac, so if that should be a win issue i dont know
12:07:00  <dihedral> if the issue is related to win - you just lost ^^
12:07:51  <dihedral> and that is a clean version of OpenTTD
12:10:43  <Zahl> well i got a ottdcoop game now, same thing with recent trunk version...
12:11:00  <Zahl> ok using newgrfs
12:11:13  <Zahl> i'll leave it running for an hour or so
12:11:14  <Rubidium> Zahl: even a normal game without newgrfs and/or vehicles causes the same behaviour?
12:11:14  <dihedral> unpatched game i hope
12:11:21  <Zahl> to see it it stays like that in the ling run
12:11:58  <Zahl> Rubidium: problem is i don't have a bug game with a recent clean trunk version... it will take me some time to achieve that, but i will try ;)
12:12:00  <Ammler> how long does it take to have "the effect"?
12:12:03  <Zahl> big*
12:12:03  <dihedral> Zahl: what os (exactly)
12:12:10  <Zahl> winxp sp3
12:12:35  <dihedral> then i should be able to reproduce that when i get home
12:12:38  <dihedral> or at least try
12:12:46  <dihedral> and i will not use any patches
12:12:53  <dihedral> if you patch your game that is your own fault ^^
12:13:18  <Ammler> :-)
12:13:27  <Zahl> yeah i know, this is why i'm not starting a big "zomg this game has memleakz" thread in the forums ;)
12:14:01  <dihedral> but you file a bug report!!!!
12:14:14  <dihedral> at least in the forums we could bash you right now :-P
12:14:17  <dihedral> hihi
12:14:39  <dihedral> i loaded the map in clean trunk and it's fine
12:14:41  <dihedral> oh wait
12:14:53  <dihedral> what rev are you playing when you say 'clean trunk'
12:14:57  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... sometimes, when i used my volume keys, kmix eats all my keyboard input :(
12:15:19  <dihedral> ^^
12:15:31  <Zahl> and i admit i don't know the source too well, but i just wonder: would it actually be possible that some stupid stuff a patch does gets into a savegame and causes a memleak even in the trunk version?
12:15:39  <Zahl> dihedral: r15599
12:15:41  <Ammler> r15553
12:15:52  <Ammler> hmm, at least, that is what the gamelog says
12:15:53  <dihedral> no
12:16:09  <Zahl> recent nightly just downloaded from the website
12:16:13  <dihedral> Ammler: that could have been the patched version
12:16:27  <Ammler> r15476M
12:16:35  <Ammler> is the gamestart
12:16:38  <dihedral> right
12:17:12  <Ammler> and 15591 is my rev at last
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12:18:13  <Ammler> [13:15] <Zahl> and i admit i don't know the source too well, but i just wonder: would it actually be possible that some stupid stuff a patch does gets into a savegame and causes a memleak even in the trunk version? <-- good question, I guess, that is the reason for the gamelog
12:18:50  <dihedral> what on earth does he mean with a patch getting into the savegame?
12:18:51  <Ammler> I assume, if a save ever is touched by a M-rev, you can drop it as bug report.
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12:19:40  <Zahl_> dihedral: i mean that some bug gets into the savegame
12:20:09  <Zahl_> and that if you load this savegame in a clean trunk version, it causes this behavior, whereas a clean savegame would not
12:20:37  <Zahl_> just technically speaking
12:20:52  <dihedral> and it's a game you added and removed grf's from
12:21:04  <dihedral> you really think anybody wants to support that?
12:21:06  <dihedral> nope
12:21:10  <Rubidium> I see no reason why it couldn't happen, but it seems unlikely
12:22:02  <dihedral> and cheated the landscape?
12:22:17  <planetmaker> Zahl: Rubidium: patched versions can introduce things like unowned stations and stuff...
12:22:18  <dihedral> no
12:22:21  <dihedral> sorry
12:22:23  <dihedral> my bad
12:23:58  <planetmaker> I seem to remember some mega cool person complaining about funny behaviour of his map made with such patches...
12:24:15  <planetmaker> or is just my memory faulty?
12:24:37  <dihedral> patched games just are the users own silly fault
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12:24:39  <planetmaker> oh... and I didn't see a "n't" in Rubi's answer :P
12:24:51  <dihedral> complaining about them is like - totally stupid
12:24:55  * planetmaker needs more tea
12:25:53  <HerzogDeXtEr> the original landscape generator isnt working, it crashs openttd 0.7.0-beta1
12:25:58  <planetmaker> dihedral: certainly depends upon the patch. A daylength game which doesn't save and change anything else...  but then you never know :)
12:26:07  <planetmaker> HerzogDeXtEr: afaik it's fixed in trunk
12:26:12  <HerzogDeXtEr> k
12:26:15  <Zahl_> dihedral: like i said, i'm still trying different things etc, i do not claim the game is buggy (yet ;))
12:26:36  <dihedral> you are asking for support ^^
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12:26:41  <dihedral> or at least you are costing ^^
12:26:58  <Zahl> i know, but you do not have to give support if you don't want ;)
12:26:59  <dihedral> and trying to claim a game is butty with a patched game is just as stupid ;-)
12:27:10  <HerzogDeXtEr> is there still the problem that all indutries are dying on very big maps?
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12:27:41  <planetmaker> @r15111
12:27:47  <planetmaker> hm...
12:27:52  <dihedral> ?
12:28:01  <planetmaker> dihedral: the revision of the assert fix :)
12:28:14  <dihedral> are you looking for @openttd commit 15111
12:28:19  <planetmaker> yes :)
12:28:22  <planetmaker> ty
12:28:51  <Eddi|zuHause> i really wonder why the so called "junction wikis" never mention this style of junction...
12:28:52  <Eddi|zuHause>,%2023.%20Maer%201942.png
12:28:55  <Zahl> dihedral: so i guess if it also happens in a ottdcoop savegame it is not a valid argument either because of newgrf? so i should start a clean game with trunk...
12:29:17  <Eddi|zuHause>,%2026.%20Feb%201934.png
12:29:49  <dihedral> Zahl: clean trunk is the best thing to use if you want to find / report a bug
12:30:09  <Zahl> ok.. might take some time :-D
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12:30:11  <planetmaker> Zahl: if the thing is related to use of newgrf, of course you cannot test it w/o newgrf :)
12:30:25  <planetmaker> but if it isn't - a testgame w/o is far better.
12:30:44  <planetmaker> Zahl: run an AI test game. They build fast and w/o you doing anything :P
12:30:58  <Zahl> but then it could also be caused by ai
12:31:03  <planetmaker> yep
12:31:03  <dihedral> planetmaker: afaik ai's leak
12:31:04  <Ammler> Zahl: if you use a save, type "gamelog" in the console to check if there isn't a midified version.
12:31:07  <dihedral> or at lest squirrel does
12:31:17  <planetmaker> dihedral: ok, then that rules out use of them
12:31:23  <Ammler> also possible coop games are from a modified one.
12:31:45  <planetmaker> might be
12:31:51  <dihedral> + coop games are usually crammed with newgrf's
12:31:53  <Ammler> maybe 1 or 2
12:32:13  <planetmaker> dihedral: depends on dfinition of "crammed wiht" :P
12:32:27  <planetmaker> But yeah, I usually add all station grfs I can get :)
12:34:03  <petern> write a patch to remove the unnecessary station class limit!
12:34:06  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: what bridges did you use?
12:34:27  <Eddi|zuHause> hm, i think that was the cantilever replacement set
12:34:37  <planetmaker> petern: even though I didn't find any limit there :) Adding them only defers the decision which to use to ingame :)
12:34:39  <Eddi|zuHause> and the brick viaduct
12:34:54  <planetmaker> ah, brick viaduct might be what I wondered about
12:35:17  <Rubidium> dihedral: AFAIK squirrel doesn't leak anymore, but given the way you said it: could you give me the game where it leaks?
12:35:18  <petern> not really
12:35:26  <petern> if you go over the limit they'll just end up in the default class
12:36:03  <petern> it is 32 as that was the limit on dropdowns when it was made
12:36:42  <planetmaker> ah... :) That explains why I sometimes have more than the default station in the first entry?
12:36:53  <planetmaker> I always assumed that it was a grf modifying that.
12:36:56  <petern> yup
12:37:17  <Eddi|zuHause> the buffers grf adds to the default station
12:37:38  <planetmaker> yes. But I once at least had more :)
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12:38:23  <Ammler> are there more then 32 station grfs?
12:38:26  <planetmaker> 32 different stations is sufficient though.
12:38:44  <dihedral> Rubidium: i have rather large other leak issues on the vps
12:39:00  <dihedral> it's kinda linked to openttd, but i cannot follow up on the vps
12:39:11  <petern> ...
12:39:15  <dihedral> however, whenever openttd dies, i have an extra 600MB of free mem
12:39:17  <Ammler> hmm, same grf could have more classes
12:39:19  <dihedral> it sucks
12:39:25  <dihedral> ^^
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12:41:06  <dihedral> i wish i could find out where the issue was and how it was caused, but i cannot, i dont even get to see the issue within the vps
12:42:21  <planetmaker> dihedral: hm... last time I ran openttd for a day, it also had 570MB of virtual memory reserved. But only 28 resident...
12:42:58  <planetmaker> hm...
12:43:07  <Rubidium> dihedral: so it can also be that openttd got killed, then another process in another VPS got more memory, wasted that too, got killed and then you looked how much memory was free
12:43:39  <Rubidium> planetmaker: virtual memory includes stuff like opened 'files'
12:44:39  <planetmaker> what files does it open? Beside newgrfs?
12:44:53  <planetmaker> hm... screenshots it made?
12:45:07  <Rubidium> the binary, the libraries, tars, network sockets
12:45:20  <Rubidium> video (if not-dedicated)
12:45:44  <planetmaker> yes. It was my client I had running the whole day to take a screenshot every 2 ingame months
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12:46:27  <planetmaker> and I didn't watch memory over time. So it was just a confirmation on the total amount :) - I guess the virtual memory will after termination also be freed :)
12:46:46  <Rubidium> and randomised memory allocation causes such things to
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12:47:05  <planetmaker> can you reccomend a tool to log the memory usage over time?
12:47:22  <planetmaker> Then it's easy for me to run tests throughout the day(s)
12:47:23  <Rubidium> no, but valgrind'll tell whether it leaks
12:47:59  <Noldo> how does the original mapgen use the sprites it needs?
12:48:05  <planetmaker> that's a test which doesn't require the programme to run, right? I've no idea about valgrind...
12:48:24  <Rubidium> Noldo: you'll have to find out yourself
12:48:34  <Noldo> oh great
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12:55:56  <dihedral> Rubidium: it's a dedicated server, and i went through the issues with TB
12:56:02  <dihedral> and yes, it runs in shared mem
12:56:12  <dihedral> and i can watch the shared mem rise
12:56:19  <dihedral> and i can predict when the app gets killed
12:56:24  <dihedral> it's been going on for over a month
12:56:32  <dihedral> however, this does not happen if it's not running in the vps
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13:06:05  <petern> heh
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13:06:09  <petern>
13:06:32  *** Combuster [] has joined #openttd
13:06:48  <Forked>  it's OpenTTD!
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13:07:44  <Forked> using that to guide the mouse pointer looks sort of painful
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13:08:38  <petern> impossible :o
13:09:20  <Forked> no delete button? =p
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13:11:43  <planetmaker> nice :) But seems like it's lacking a bit of interface comfort :)
13:12:03  <Forked> mmm Unix
13:12:56  <Forked> what OS on that phone?
13:13:10  <petern> oh damn
13:13:12  <petern> i've lost the pointer
13:13:13  <petern> because
13:13:17  <petern> it can go OFF THE SCREEN
13:13:21  <petern> who thought that was a good idea, eh?
13:13:24  <Eddi|zuHause> lmao :p
13:13:26  <petern> it's series 60
13:13:35  <Forked> haha
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13:14:30  <[wito]> ok
13:14:38  <[wito]> time for a YAPP experiment!
13:14:41  <[wito]> Wish me luck!
13:15:19  <Noldo> luck
13:17:56  <petern> no signal :(
13:32:14  <|Japa|> wippitty:
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13:46:27  <dihedral> Japa: that looks like tiles in a kitchen
13:46:30  <dihedral> a very old kitchen
13:46:52  <planetmaker> could be ground tiles for a toyland replacement
13:47:05  <dihedral> true
13:47:17  <dihedral> that would be lot nicer too ^^
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14:04:51  <|Japa|> I really like the look of this:
14:05:06  <|Japa|> so I was trying to start replicating it by memory
14:05:56  <|Japa|> also, it's my first attempt at making a GRF
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14:22:28  <petern> um
14:22:30  <petern> yeah
14:22:33  <petern> it's not a grid
14:22:34  <petern> and
14:22:37  <petern> no need to do it as a grf
14:22:46  <petern> do it as 32bpp :D
14:22:58  <petern> i did a ground sprite similar to that, but no more
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14:27:22  <Eddi|zuHause> can/should 32bpp sets be handled with .obg files?
14:27:43  <Rubidium> no
14:28:44  <Eddi|zuHause> imho it should. allows people to switch from the default graphics to 32bpp graphics the same way as to opengfx graphics.
14:29:27  <Eddi|zuHause> also allows to show a message window like "openttd must be started in 32bpp mode to support these graphics, the changes will be in effect on the next restart"
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14:37:14  <[wito]> bah! 32bpp!
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14:42:31  <planetmaker> Rubidium: with respect to translation and 1,000 € vs. 1.000 € vs. 10,00.00 €... There's a number of strings which go like "{BLUE}{COMMA}"-
14:42:55  <planetmaker> doesn't the {COMMA} denote how the number is spaced for bigger numbers?
14:43:29  <Rubidium> no, just that it is
14:43:39  <planetmaker> So far I have no idea on the use of that {COMMA} - I assumed to replace it by {DOT}
14:43:45  <planetmaker> would work.
14:44:01  <planetmaker> (and wanted to test that tonight) :)
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14:44:35  <planetmaker> So... no easy way for a translator to fix that?
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14:45:46  <Rubidium> as I said... whether commas, dots or spaces are used isn't a language decision
14:47:53  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: {CURRENCY} != {COMMA}
14:48:04  <planetmaker> yes :)
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14:48:16  * planetmaker should have done a stfw before :P
14:48:27  <Eddi|zuHause> as for the Language-{COMMA}-Separator, i had a patch for that.
14:48:35  <Ammler> and currency is a local setting, not language :P
14:48:40  <Rubidium> as I said... whether commas, dots or spaces are used isn't a language decision
14:50:52  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, languages cannot override currency settings.
14:53:05  <planetmaker> hm... ok, so not translatable change then :)
14:53:06  <[wito]> speaking of currency settings
14:53:20  <[wito]> is the #{sep}### format hard-coded?
14:53:20  <Eddi|zuHause> <- but has nothing to do with currencies
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14:53:36  <[wito]> because some currencies should have groups of 4, not 3
14:53:43  <[wito]> (most notably JPY
14:54:10  <Rubidium> [wito]: yes
14:54:46  <Rubidium> and then JPY isn't the hard one to support; the Indian format'll be the hard one
14:55:02  <[wito]> how is the indian one?
14:56:35  <Rubidium> 1,000 1,00,000 1,00,00,000 1,000,00,000 (or that's what I understand from wikipedia)
14:56:38  <[wito]> but actually, the separator concern would apply to all numbers in the Japanese translation
14:58:19  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: so alternating groups of 2 and 3?
14:58:31  <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: your patch would need something like a 2. base language, so you could make language files for de_CH and use de as base, but don't need to replace all strings.
14:58:49  <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: yes, we discussed that already ;)
14:59:14  <Eddi|zuHause> possibly add a "##fallback" pragma?
14:59:15  <Ammler> oh, indded, might be :-)
14:59:39  <[wito]> so changing number formats in translation a no-go on the whole?
15:00:05  <Rubidium> haven't I said that like a three times already?
15:00:12  <[wito]> yaeh
15:00:28  <[wito]> or actually, I kept subtly rephrasing the question. ;)
15:00:32  <[wito]> Anyway, bbl
15:00:32  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: I don't know how the indian numbering actually works
15:03:19  <Rubidium> comma is used at levels of thousand (1000), lakh (100 000) and crore (10 000 000) which would suggest at 3, 5, 7, 10, 12, 14, ...
15:05:30  <Rubidium> but then the wiki seems very inconsistent to me
15:10:44  <petern> handy
15:11:28  <Belugas> comic pack... too bad it cannot be used somewhat :(
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15:14:40  <dihedral> what is it lisenced under?
15:15:17  <Rubidium> other pages seem to suggest that indian is last group of 3, groups before that of 2
15:15:49  <Eddi|zuHause> do the indians themselves even know?
15:15:52  <planetmaker> Belugas: yeah... :S that'd be a nice look :)
15:15:53  <Rubidium> chinese/japanese seem to want to add their 10 000/100 000 000 etc. characters in between
15:16:37  <Rubidium> so you'd get something like 2 million 345 thousand 678
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15:17:09  <|Japa|> ohh, what'd I miss here?
15:17:28  <Rubidium> yourself
15:17:35  <Eddi|zuHause> well, more like "2M345k678" i presume, since they would be "1-character-words"
15:17:42  <dihedral> Rubidium, nobody else missed that ^^
15:18:05  <|Japa|> we talking languiages?
15:18:14  <|Japa|> klingon needed
15:18:18  <|Japa|> :P
15:18:19  <petern> thousand separators
15:18:24  <|Japa|> oh
15:18:38  <Eddi|zuHause> not languages, numbering formats
15:18:46  <|Japa|> so for the possibility of having Rs. 10,00,00,00,000 ?
15:18:53  <|Japa|> want
15:20:33  <petern> if you ... really wanted
15:21:24  <|Japa|> I'd learn to program, yeagh
15:21:24  <dihedral> planetmaker, as for crashed planes: "bei dem unfal gab es {num} tote und ein paar zwerquetschte" ^^
15:21:45  <dihedral> |Japa|, really?
15:22:00  <planetmaker> dihedral: you're a registered translator :P
15:22:07  <dihedral> hehe
15:22:20  <dihedral> i was makeing a joke, not wanting to force it into the strings
15:22:31  <planetmaker> hehe :P
15:23:03  <Eddi|zuHause> that was actually funny ;)
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15:25:19  <|Japa|> dihedral, if I can't even manage to download the source, it doesn't bode well for my chances of sucess at anything programming wise
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15:28:50  <nicfer> hi
15:29:04  <Rubidium> not being able to download a tarball sounds like a serious offense to me
15:29:05  <|Japa|> hi
15:29:29  <|Japa|> well, not gettin SVN to work right, anyways
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15:32:55  <Belugas> planetmaker, it would look so much better than all those photorealistic packages ;)
15:33:08  <nicfer> I'm wondering - would be too many work to rewrite industries like towns?
15:34:22  <nicfer> that would be, if you destroy a tile (like houses in towns) it gets rebuilt in a nearby place
15:35:47  <planetmaker> Belugas: well... not necessarily better IMO. But it would IMO be THE replacement for toyland :)
15:35:55  <planetmaker> And then really look nice.
15:36:11  <planetmaker> And it's something very unique in its own. Nice style
15:39:01  <Eddi|zuHause> nicfer: yes, that would be too much work
15:39:55  <Eddi|zuHause> comic as 32bpp replacement for toyland... interesting idea
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15:40:13  <Belugas> planetmaker, it would be better.  not just for toyland
15:40:23  <Belugas> photorealism makes the game loos part of his ...
15:40:26  <Belugas> interest
15:40:27  <Belugas> appeal
15:40:30  <Eddi|zuHause> but the images i have seen from the comic set might be too much based on "real" building to suit as toyland replacement
15:41:23  <planetmaker> Belugas: well... :) I like both styles. Variety's the spice of life ;)
15:41:32  <Eddi|zuHause> i agree with belugas, photorealistic breaks the game style. besides, some of the perspective-trickeries get really apparent with pseudo-photorealism (e.g. the shortened wagons)
15:41:43  *** |Japa| [~Japa@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:41:54  <Eddi|zuHause> (or other scale "misalignments"
15:41:56  <Eddi|zuHause> )
15:44:32  <[wito]> Rubidium: re japanese number format: japanese only usually adds the characters when the number is written as a word
15:44:38  <[wito]> (like you would on a check)
15:45:18  <[wito]> when they write as numbers they write 1.0000.0000
15:47:20  <Eddi|zuHause> how does that work anyway? in latin-based alphabets, this "word" writing of numbers on checks was introduced as a measurement to avoid cheating (e.g. replacing digits, or adding digits) because you can replace the words less easily by just writing over them
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15:48:28  <TrueBrain> hello lovely people
15:49:15  <Rubidium> hello lovely person
15:49:29  <TrueBrain> :)
15:49:36  <glx> hey TrueBrain
15:49:36  <Eddi|zuHause> hm, in germany that works differently...
15:49:44  <Eddi|zuHause> one person says "Prost ihr SÀcke"
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15:49:57  <Eddi|zuHause> and the others reply accordingly "Prost du Sack" :p
15:50:17  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: nobody cares about german people
15:50:17  <Belugas> TrueBrain!
15:50:20  <TrueBrain> they are insane
15:50:23  * TrueBrain hugs Belugas
15:50:32  <Belugas> Welcome back!
15:50:47  <Eddi|zuHause> that might be true, but the two statements are totally uncorrelated :p
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15:53:30  <TrueBrain> every 6 months I order for the same amount of money a new HD ... a few years back that was 160 GB ... now it is 1 TB ... weird times ..
15:54:20  <Yexo> hello TrueBrain
15:54:56  <TrueBrain> Yexo: I redirected some user to you with a NoAI related question
15:55:01  <TrueBrain> didn't feel like reading what he was asking :p
15:55:23  <Yexo> that's fine, but I haven't seen any question yet
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16:01:21  <TrueBrain> bleepy: would you mind either staying or leaving?
16:03:09  <Rubidium> seems like he likes leaving
16:03:31  <TrueBrain> that I gathered, yes
16:03:36  <TrueBrain> thank you for that clearification ;)
16:03:59  <TrueBrain> hmm .. my C application fails to download at 100 mbit/sec :(
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16:06:15  <Rubidium> read in bigger blocks?
16:06:21  <Rubidium> write in bigger blocks?
16:06:41  <TrueBrain> it is reading
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16:07:00  <TrueBrain> and I guess I need to increase the sendbuffer of the socket yes :)
16:07:21  *** Guest412 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:07:59  <Eddi|zuHause> anyone lingually and musically educated enough to explain to me how to translate the musical intervals ("Prime", "Oktave", "{große|kleine} {Sekunde|Terz|Sexte|Septime}" and "[verminderte|ÃŒbermÀßige] {Quarte|Quinte}") into english?
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16:08:45  <glx> Eddi|zuHause: I can translate some of them into french ;)
16:09:21  <planetmaker> <-- Eddi
16:10:02  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: ^ :P
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16:11:01  <nicfer> release dates suck, and is one of the motives because some games are ruined
16:11:11  <nicfer> example, duke nukem forever
16:11:12  <nicfer> lol
16:12:46  <Firzen> How to solve a new grf conflict?
16:12:50  <Eddi|zuHause> err... i don't think this "example" fits your statement
16:12:57  <Eddi|zuHause> Firzen: deactivate one.
16:13:02  <Firzen> Do the clients need to download the grf files manually?
16:13:37  <Eddi|zuHause> Firzen: if the GRFs are not available on the content server, they have to be downloaded manually
16:13:48  <Firzen> Ok.
16:14:00  <Eddi|zuHause> an established quasi-standard for that is the Coop-GRFPack
16:14:27  <Eddi|zuHause> which should contain about 98% of the GRFs found on servers
16:14:56  <Brokkoli> it does not ;)
16:15:08  <Brokkoli> but at least about 80% *g*
16:15:21  <TrueBrain> nobody likes a smartass
16:15:46  <Eddi|zuHause> 93,6% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
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16:15:47  <planetmaker> :)
16:15:56  <Brokkoli> try the crawler to find the grfs
16:16:33  <planetmaker> that's no good way, if you want people join your server. You need a central grf repository for that
16:16:57  <Brokkoli> but u dont have...
16:17:19  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: no 0% of all statistics are made up on the spot
16:17:25  <planetmaker> well... bananas is one. And the coop grfpack is the predecessor with some grfs more
16:17:32  <Brokkoli> if you want people to join your server, only use bananas grfs
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16:17:41  <planetmaker> which cannot or won't be uploaded to bananas.
16:17:49  <Brokkoli> yes the coop is ok
16:17:51  <planetmaker> We won't include bananas content anymore, though
16:17:59  <Brokkoli> why?
16:18:02  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: well, basically, that is a direct lemma of "Do not trust a statistics that you did not fake yourself"
16:18:14  <planetmaker> Brokkoli: why should we? It's much work to update.
16:18:22  <Brokkoli> not to much
16:18:29  <planetmaker> And bananas is usually more up to date.
16:18:31  <Brokkoli> and i think its worth the work
16:18:37  <planetmaker> Brokkoli: you did it already several times, eh?
16:18:51  <Brokkoli> no i didn't
16:18:58  <TrueBrain> I see this channel gained an other know-it-all
16:19:13  * planetmaker wonders how people aways see things other people do as "not much work"...
16:19:27  <Ammler> we we only delete grfs from the pack anymore, I hope ;-)
16:19:31  <Brokkoli> ok sorry i havn't meant it that way
16:20:32  <Rubidium> planetmaker: is it much work for them? No, then it's not much work
16:20:34  <planetmaker> main reason is: bananas is up to date.
16:20:47  <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: if you can convice MB to put the DBSet 0.9 on bananas ;)
16:20:48  <planetmaker> Rubidium: :)
16:21:00  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: I'll definitely give it a try :)
16:21:20  <Brokkoli> or the newships
16:21:23  <Brokkoli> would be great
16:21:32  <planetmaker> But then, I think, it was easier, if bananas allowed to download the grfs via webinterface
16:21:39  <planetmaker> That way also TTDP users could use it.
16:21:48  <Eddi|zuHause> i wouldn't hope for a near release of another newships grf
16:21:57  <TrueBrain> planetmaker: or TTDP could use the open protocol to make an ingame thingy too! :)
16:22:09  <Brokkoli> ok not a new but the old one.. for the "bananas-only" users
16:22:09  <glx> TrueBrain: I'm following your howto crosscompile for mac, works quite well (I already have i686-apple-darwin9)
16:22:10  <Rubidium> planetmaker: nothing prevents them from implementing the protocol
16:22:20  <planetmaker> That'd be the nicer solution, certainly :)
16:22:28  <TrueBrain> glx: yeah ... when I write documentation, it mostly adds up ;)
16:22:36  <TrueBrain> nice to see there is still interest in that ;)
16:22:44  <Ammler> don't think there will be big new feature for ttdp anymore.
16:23:27  <TrueBrain> then why bother at all ;)
16:23:46  <glx> TrueBrain: it's more like we have a weird problem with osx 10.3.9 nightlies (and we don't know yet what cause it) ;)
16:23:54  <Ammler> well, but something for the server admins would be nice.
16:23:55  <TrueBrain> glx: so I read
16:24:08  <TrueBrain> and by the lack of a certain person to produce any binary for 10.3.9 .. I guess it isn't going anywhere either ;)
16:24:12  <Eddi|zuHause> OpenTTD would not be where it is now if it did not have TTDPatch to lead it (feature-wise)
16:24:16  <planetmaker> TrueBrain: dedicated servers :)
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16:24:34  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: and visa versa ;)
16:24:48  <planetmaker> And it would make grf authors more comfortable, I think, as their work is then available from _one_ place, even without a client
16:25:37  <glx> TrueBrain: yeah, that's why we need another way to try things ;)
16:25:42  <planetmaker> "it's not much work to implement a download of the tars" :P
16:25:45  * planetmaker hides
16:25:51  <glx> btw I have a 10.3.9 pearpc VM
16:25:55  <Ammler> TrueBrain: currently, you have to load a save local and transfer the content to the server...
16:25:56  <TrueBrain> glx: creating your own i686-apple-darwin9 most likely won't really help
16:26:03  <Rubidium> TTDP seems to be killing itself by not making a new release and thus having people disregard it as they downloaded the stable and can't get many things working
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16:26:15  <TrueBrain> glx: the problem might be in the fact it is darwin9 .. you might also want to try darwin8, although there shouldn't be any difference :)
16:26:22  <planetmaker> Rubidium: might be, yeah
16:26:51  <TrueBrain> Ammler: then I wonder how I download AIs via my dedicated server
16:26:58  <glx> but the weird thing is it stopped working without any changes
16:27:02  <TrueBrain> I guess it is my imagination that those files get where they should go ...
16:27:15  <Eddi|zuHause> so i am not the only one who finds it weird that they started 2.6.alphas before finishing a 2.5 release?
16:27:23  <TrueBrain> glx: well, that might be only perspective :) No 'registered' changes ;)
16:27:41  <TrueBrain> I think it is a relocation error .. might be the binary size, might be the blocksize ..
16:27:42  <TrueBrain> who knows :)
16:28:28  <TrueBrain> glx: but having a VM to test on, might greatly help solving the problem ;)
16:28:49  <Ammler> TrueBrain: workaround was to download all, indeed.
16:29:24  <Ammler> but that might fail, if a older version is needed.
16:29:44  <TrueBrain> 'a server' and 'older version needed' doesn't combine
16:29:46  <TrueBrain> ever
16:30:02  <TrueBrain> as even as client you can't download an 'older' version (unless you join an already running server with an older version)
16:30:59  <TrueBrain> glx: anyway, good luck ;) I hope you can find something .. let me know if you need anything :)
16:31:14  <Eddi|zuHause> you can, if you e.g. run a 0.7.x server and 0.8-nightly, some grfs might be flagged as "requires 0.8-nightly", while an older version of that grf might be available for 0.7.x
16:31:17  <TrueBrain> (I would btw start with compiling OpenTTD under 10.3.9 natively, see if that fixes theproblem ;))
16:31:37  <Eddi|zuHause> so if you run both servers with the same data-directory
16:31:46  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: a non-issue for the situation Ammler created
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16:32:42  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe you accidently updated, and want to roll back to the older version, because you did not like the changes?
16:33:16  <Ammler> that is even not possible for the uploader ihimself
16:33:36  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: and having a method to download via the websites solves that ... how? :p
16:33:52  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... that might be a point ;)
16:34:09  <Ammler> if you load the save, it outputs the grfid and md5sum
16:35:43  <wollollo> logout
16:35:45  <wollollo> logout
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16:36:48  <planetmaker> [17:33]	<TrueBrain>	Eddi|zuHause: and having a method to download via the websites solves that ... how? :p <-- that's two completely different issues
16:37:02  <TrueBrain> planetmaker: we were talking about that, right?
16:37:14  <TrueBrain> Ammler started wining about something to me, so I can only conclude it was related to that :p
16:37:26  <planetmaker> yes, we were talking about web download at least initially :)
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16:37:41  <TrueBrain> at least I am not going mental ;)
16:37:46  <Ammler> hmm
16:37:55  <planetmaker> Ammler's issue is indeed another.
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16:38:02  <planetmaker> But it's a valid one IMO, too :)
16:38:20  <TrueBrain> so wine to who ever you need to wine about that
16:38:23  <TrueBrain> just not to me :p
16:38:26  <planetmaker> it's very tricky to get the needed grfs of a savegame to a  dedicated server
16:39:12  <planetmaker> Well :)
16:39:34  <Ammler> is the source available?
16:39:47  <TrueBrain> 'the source'
16:39:52  <TrueBrain> don't you just love people
16:39:53  <Ammler> of bananas
16:39:55  <TrueBrain> 'is the internet down'
16:39:57  <TrueBrain> lol
16:40:50  <Eddi|zuHause> <- please, i do not get this guy... the things that i think he is proposing can never work properly...
16:41:08  <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: "the whole internet?"
16:41:17  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: YES!
16:41:19  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: RUN!
16:41:26  <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: i had such a discussion a few days ago
16:42:06  <Rubidium> yup, googling google breaks the internet, which is a small black box
16:42:10  <Eddi|zuHause> well, a meta-discussion, as in "what do you respond when someone asks this kind of question"
16:42:28  <TrueBrain> Rubidium: with a light on top of it!
16:42:42  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: in the same line of questions: what is the black hole?
16:42:47  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: I think he has a serious issue with understanding how these signals are meant to work and how he can use them to create exactly what he wants.
16:42:50  <TrueBrain> (mind the 'the', not 'a')
16:43:17  <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: i'd relay that question to planetmaker ;)
16:43:18  <Rubidium> TrueBrain: the part of you that talks shit ;)
16:43:23  <Eddi|zuHause> he's the expert ;)
16:43:33  <TrueBrain> Rubidium: nasty :p
16:44:38  <TrueBrain> hmm .. Xen seems to drop my IO performance with 50% ...
16:44:55  <TrueBrain> I need to add I am downloading at 100 mbit/sec .. so IO delays are very noticable ;)
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16:57:20  <Brokkoli> i've got an idea about a new "pbs signal" there are now pbs and pbs-one-way... sometimes i'd need a thing which acts as a pbs-one-way from one side - blocking the way back - but from the othere side there should not be a valid stopping position.. so it's no signal at all... just kinda "oneway-sign" for tracks
16:57:24  <Brokkoli> how about that?
16:58:03  <Eddi|zuHause> wow, a completely new never-heard suggestion! how rare is that!
16:58:33  <planetmaker> lol @ Eddi|zuHause & Brokkoli
16:58:41  <planetmaker> Brokkoli: play the game, test the signals and find out
16:58:58  <planetmaker> or look into the wiki
16:58:59  <Brokkoli> there is no signal like that
16:59:06  <Brokkoli> or is it?
16:59:18  <planetmaker> have you played with path signals actually?
16:59:25  <Eddi|zuHause> no, there is not, and i don't think there will be
16:59:26  <Brokkoli> sure
16:59:42  <Brokkoli> why not?
17:00:08  <Brokkoli> sometimes i got problems with trains turning around.. and going the wrong way.. because there is nothing like that
17:00:14  <planetmaker> you cannot block one way and at the same time allow passing through from that side
17:00:31  <Eddi|zuHause> the two remaining signal types are kinda-reserved for "advance" (yellow) path signals
17:00:34  <Brokkoli> from the other side
17:00:35  <planetmaker> Turning trains is another issue. Change wait_on_pbs_signal = 255
17:00:40  <planetmaker> or something like that
17:00:47  <Brokkoli> i know
17:01:01  <Brokkoli> but sometimes turning is ok
17:01:08  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i think you are missing the point
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17:01:16  <planetmaker> I guess :)
17:01:30  *** Mortal [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:01:31  <Brokkoli> i'll create a screenshot
17:02:52  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: oh... I think, I get it now. Just a "no entry" sign.
17:02:58  <planetmaker> right, Brokkoli ?
17:03:09  <Brokkoli> yes
17:03:44  <Brokkoli>
17:03:47  <Eddi|zuHause> yes. i think they might be kinda useful on certain complex switch-blocks
17:03:57  <Brokkoli> the red line is a valid parking position
17:04:07  <Brokkoli> but the blue signal is not ok there
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17:04:30  <Brokkoli> - but when i don't have it there trains could turn around and go the dotted line
17:04:43  <Brokkoli> so it sould be only a no-entry
17:04:53  <Brokkoli> in the blue circle
17:07:14  <petern> i prefer to not let my trains turn around
17:07:36  <Brokkoli> me too, but by default they will do
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17:08:03  <Brokkoli> and its a server setting, not a client setting.. so i cannot avoid it
17:08:16  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd prefer my trains would throw a message instead of turning around when they are stuck
17:08:21  <Brokkoli> yes
17:08:34  <Eddi|zuHause> but nobody listens to me
17:14:09  <Belugas> what?
17:14:45  <[wito]> am I the only one who uses LHD? ;)
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17:18:11  <Eddi|zuHause> <Belugas> what? <- exactly. ;)
17:18:42  <petern> [wito], no, all sensible people do
17:18:56  <Rubidium> but it isn't the right side of the road
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17:30:18  <[wito]> Rubidium: of course it isn't
17:30:20  <[wito]> it's the left
17:30:23  <|Japa|> I've had a problem with PBS sometimes
17:30:31  <|Japa|> I get trains playing leapfrog
17:30:39  <|Japa|> is there a way to avoid that?
17:31:05  <[wito]> |Japa|: I hope I won't get quieted for telling you this;
17:31:16  <|Japa|> ?
17:31:39  <[wito]> but real track configurations are generally a N-S track and a S-N track with a central two-way track
17:31:55  <|Japa|> hmm...
17:32:03  <Eddi|zuHause> |Japa|: not reliably
17:32:04  <|Japa|> makes sense
17:32:26  <[wito]> The two-way two-track configuration is simply not a realistic approach to building railways
17:32:47  <[wito]> This extends to roads as well;
17:32:55  <Eddi|zuHause> [wito]: it is, but the signalling system is not able to handle it very well
17:33:44  <Eddi|zuHause> [wito]: many german double track lines are refited for "Gleiswechselbetrieb" (i.e. operating both rails in both directions)
17:34:01  <[wito]> ORLY
17:34:31  <[wito]> Well, at present rail conductors are often somewhat more intelligent even than YAPP. ;)
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17:34:38  <|Japa|> well, the line I travel on a lot here in india has 4 tracks on it
17:35:11  <[wito]> I assume that cycles 3-1, 2-2, 1-3?
17:35:17  <|Japa|> also, $%%@#%^$$%^@ coal mine
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17:35:26  <Eddi|zuHause> the problem is you cannot reliably tell the slow trains to not attempt overtaking
17:36:14  <|Japa|> I guess I have to test with different distances between crossovers
17:36:43  <Eddi|zuHause> (also, realistically, the slow train will go on the "wrong" track, you can't model that properly either)
17:37:43  <|Japa|> I wonder if there's a good way to handle trains of different speeds on the same track
17:38:02  <Eddi|zuHause> |Japa|: i have given up on attempting a bi-directional double track. they are usually too crowded in either direction, that overtaking is simply not possible, and if overtaking is possible, the wrong train attempts the overtake
17:38:05  <[wito]> I've been doing a bit of testing with that
17:38:25  <[wito]> not with PBS, tho'
17:38:27  <[wito]> that's what I'm going to test now
17:38:55  <Eddi|zuHause> what i have done meanwhile is having freight trains split to a secondary track near intermediate stations, and forcing them to wait there, while any faster train behind them will overtake
17:39:25  <|Japa|> specially with cargodest, it makes sense to have local and express trains
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17:40:15  <Ammler> 3 lines where only the middle one is bidirectional works well
17:40:39  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, i have done this for a really overcrowded line
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17:41:08  <[wito]> Ammler: I take it that works best when you use VA crossovers instead of XX ones, ya?
17:41:20  <nicfer> lmao, my antivirus is detecting that explorer.exe (a system's task!) is trying to create a file called autorun.inf
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17:42:01  <Eddi|zuHause>,%2029.%20Mai%201930.png <- for example this stations, the freight trains will be scheduled to wait on the siding even if they have nothing to load/unload at the station, to allow faster passenger trains to overtake them
17:42:05  <|Japa|> you's be surprised how many viruses names themselves explorer.exe
17:42:19  <Ammler> [wito]: not sure, what you mean
17:43:09  <[wito]> Ammler: on a N-S track: N-branch, N-merge, S-branch, S-merge ....
17:43:13  <nicfer> that app is in the directory c:\windows
17:45:00  <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: are all signals pbs there?
17:45:06  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
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17:46:16  <Ammler> he, you don't like X
17:46:39  <[wito]> Ammler: I don't like X. :P
17:46:54  <[wito]> It causes my trains to do these silly 90 deg maneuvers at all times. .P
17:47:07  <Ammler> [wito]: disable that
17:47:08  <Eddi|zuHause> [wito]: you can turn off 90° curves
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17:48:13  <[wito]> does that work with YAPF?
17:48:21  <[wito]> I thought that required NPF
17:48:54  <Eddi|zuHause> cool... i still have the build for this paxdest savegame! :p
17:50:25  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: we need the advance signals :)
17:50:47  <Ammler> [wito]: I guess, at least NPF
17:51:01  <Ammler> yapf is a little bit more :-)
17:52:05  <[wito]> ah
17:52:20  <[wito]> I thought (because of the name) that YAPF was something else entirely
17:52:35  <[wito]> but if YAPF is more like NPF++, I guess it would work. ^_^
17:52:41  <Yexo> it is, but it also supports that setting
17:53:07  <Eddi|zuHause>,%2023.%20Maer%201942.png <- my triple-track section
17:53:26  <[wito]> heh
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17:53:43  <[wito]> turns out that specific aspect has been clarified in the 0.7.0 patch interface
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17:53:58  <[wito]> instead of (Requires NPF) it says (Not with NTP)
17:54:17  <[wito]> don't know why I haven't tried turning it on before, tho'. :P
17:54:27  <[wito]> sillynoob is silly. :P
17:57:06  <Eddi|zuHause> come back when sillynoob has run out of silly
17:58:19  <[wito]> hehe
17:58:40  <Eddi|zuHause>,%202.%20Jan%201942.png <- PS: this is why triple-tracking that section was necessary
17:59:39  <Eddi|zuHause> PPS: don't try to scroll on a screenshott
18:00:34  <[wito]> Eddi|zuHause: that's surprisingly hard
18:00:45  <[wito]> What's even harder is not holding tab when images are loading slowly. ;)
18:01:07  <Eddi|zuHause> well, i don't have that reflex
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18:05:33  <petern> and the unpause button does not work :(
18:06:41  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... this game has serious daily hiccups... it's basically unplayable...
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18:12:18  <[wito]> such as?
18:12:30  <[wito]> also
18:12:39  <[wito]> in the german station names, I see a lot of Gbh
18:12:42  <[wito]> what does that mean?
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18:14:32  <Eddi|zuHause> "GÃŒterbahnhof" as in "Cargo station"
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18:15:41  <Eddi|zuHause> compare to "Hbf" (Hauptbahnhof -> Main station), "Pbf" (Personenbahnhof -> Passenger station), "Rbf" (Rangierbahnhof -> Shunting station)
18:16:35  <[wito]> so is that a manual renaming convention, or is that part of the language files ( Mines, Forest in English)?
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18:20:13  <Eddi|zuHause> that is manual
18:20:48  <[wito]> k. :)
18:24:01  <[wito]> how, by the way, does the 'Distant Joining of Stations' work?
18:25:08  <[wito]> nm. :P
18:25:21  <[wito]> "When in doubt: CTRL key."
18:26:21  <petern> aka "hidden feature" key
18:26:55  <[wito]> ya
18:27:37  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: How did you cheat in your alpine game to make the town grow?
18:27:59  <Eddi|zuHause> i have no idea, it just did...
18:28:37  <Eddi|zuHause> or i remember wrongly and the town actually was below the snow line sometimes...
18:30:15  <Eddi|zuHause> i have a trunk-loadable version of that game somewhere... (only changes back then were daylength, station catchment radius and middle stop, i believe)
18:30:52  <Eddi|zuHause> (later i added yapp, and maybe a few other patches)
18:32:06  <Ammler> frosch123: since when doesn't a town grow in apline?
18:32:51  <Ammler> well, maybe we have only arctic games, need to check...
18:34:56  <Ammler> yeah, the games I had in mind, were before newindustries
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18:35:25  <Ammler> might be possible, Eddi|zuHause started that game before too :-)
18:36:09  <Eddi|zuHause> i started it with an early version of newindustries, afair
18:36:25  <Eddi|zuHause> it went on a rather long time
18:36:50  <Eddi|zuHause> now... i am sure i uploaded the savegame before... but where...
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18:38:10  <Eddi|zuHause>,%202.%20Apr%201970.sav <- might require right-click and save as
18:40:05  <frosch123> that is a different game
18:40:22  <Eddi|zuHause> right
18:40:24  <Eddi|zuHause> misread
18:40:29  <Zahl> dihedral: starting 1k-trains-in-clean-trunk project now, wish me luck (whatever that means here :p)
18:40:31  <Eddi|zuHause> starts with R, too ;)
18:40:37  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r15602 /trunk/src/lang/ (7 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
18:40:37  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2009-03-03 18:40:15
18:40:37  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: brazilian_portuguese - 1 fixed by tucalipe (1)
18:40:37  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: dutch - 1 fixed by habell (1)
18:40:37  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: german - 1 fixed, 12 changed by planetmaker (13)
18:40:39  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: hungarian - 1 fixed by alyr (1)
18:40:39  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: indonesian - 1 fixed by fanioz (1)
18:40:43  <Sacro> SPAMMAH
18:41:16  <Eddi|zuHause>,%202.%20Jan%201972.sav
18:41:41  <Eddi|zuHause> matches the regexp "R.*wald" :p
18:42:01  <Eddi|zuHause> nobody reads the middle of a word ;)
18:42:20  <frosch123> you hacked dbset ?
18:42:32  <Eddi|zuHause> where? what?
18:43:06  <frosch123> i have only a compatible grf
18:43:11  <Eddi|zuHause> i mean, i did, but afaik not when i started that game...
18:43:52  <Eddi|zuHause> weird...
18:44:17  <Eddi|zuHause> i edited the introduction dates for the oil wagons for a later game
18:44:19  <planetmaker> full-moon hacker Eddi|zuHause :P
18:45:03  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't remember doing anything else with the dbset
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18:45:33  <Ammler> he needed to test his compiler ;-)
18:46:00  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: the town is not above the snowline for the whole year :)
18:46:17  <frosch123> or, maybe it is
18:46:36  <Eddi|zuHause> i have a savegame of july, where the town appears to be exactly on the snow line
18:48:12  <Eddi|zuHause> it says "requires food" there
18:49:13  <frosch123> that is said when the town is above summer snowline
18:51:39  <Eddi|zuHause> i have towns way below the snow line that say that
18:52:00  <frosch123> ok, started a new scenario with a town definitely above snow line, and it also grows
18:52:06  <frosch123> at least when funded
18:55:56  <frosch123> ah, yes, funding building circumvents the food/water test
18:56:44  <db48x> maybe that's what you're spending your money on
18:56:56  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, but afair i funded buildings only once
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18:58:41  <Powerek38> hello
18:59:41  <Powerek38> is there any vehicles that enables to carry products from new industries (like fruit, oil seeds etc.) by road? I've found it possible only by rail so far...
18:59:53  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm always amazed about how many connection stubs i have spread around the whole network...
19:00:15  <[wito]> Powerek38: I think there's an RV refit NewGRF
19:00:24  <Eddi|zuHause> Powerek38: yeah, for example the german road vehicle set
19:00:53  <Eddi|zuHause> it adds lots of trams, and busses, and it makes the regular trucks carry new cargos
19:01:07  <Belugas> plus, of course, it's german.
19:01:26  <Eddi|zuHause> there is also pikka's "hovs" set, but afair that one is unfinished
19:01:47  <Powerek38> Eddi|zuHause: ok, I'll check whether I've already downloaded and added that German set
19:02:03  <Ammler> Powerek38: there are a lot just check grfcrawler
19:03:09  <Ammler> (dunno, if there is a rv set not supporting new cargos)
19:03:10  <glx> eGRVTS should be able to transport thet too
19:03:42  <Ammler> (would at least be harder to find ;-)
19:07:15  <Powerek38> ok, thanks a lot :)
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19:10:12  <Belugas> funny... another example of "i dowloaded it all, but i do not know what it's used for"
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19:11:26  <Aali> obviously, more grfs = bigger e-penis
19:11:54  <Belugas> and as usual, more on something == less on other...
19:12:05  <Belugas> like .. brain ;)
19:12:20  <Belugas> by the way, i'm pretty stupid!
19:12:53  <Noldo> oh?
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19:41:14  <batti5> Announcement: The First version of Romanian Train Set has been relased, v0.1
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20:34:10  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r15603 /trunk/src/ (core/alloc_type.hpp gfx.cpp): -Fix [FS#2696]: crash when using an extraordinarily large sprite as cursor.
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20:35:09  <Zuu> Hmm, now thats a neat bug, using an extraordinary lange cursor sprite. :-)
20:35:18  <Zuu> large*
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20:37:24  <Belugas> like... protect the from noobs who try their best to overpopulate it
20:37:55  <Rubidium> yeah, cursors in excess of 128x128 pixels (8bpp) or 64x64 pixels (32bpp)
20:38:02  <Rubidium> like the aircraft of OpenGFX
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22:16:33  <el_en> B*!
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22:46:22  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r15604 /trunk/src/town_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#2661]: towns would only build houses where the grid would not be, even when they aren't allowed to build roads and the user 'implements' another layout.
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22:54:52  <RS-SM> hmm
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22:58:36  <Nite_Owl> Hello all
22:59:14  <RS-SM> hello
22:59:38  <Nite_Owl> Hello RS-SM
23:00:16  <Eddi|zuHause> huhuu
23:01:34  <Nite_Owl> Hello Eddi
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23:12:47  <Cutter> hi
23:13:20  <Cutter> why is it impossible to build diagonal rails on slopes?
23:13:49  <Cutter> is it planned?
23:14:17  <Brokkoli> it isnt?
23:14:23  <Brokkoli> not impossible
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23:14:56  <Cutter> how?
23:15:46  <Eddi|zuHause> there are a few design problems before even starting to implement those
23:16:40  <Brokkoli> its not possible?
23:16:44  <Cutter> Eddi: what problems?
23:16:45  <Eddi|zuHause> like the connection between sloped diagonal rails and level rails, because the "cut" must be orthogonal to the diagonal rails, but the tile border is not
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23:17:27  <Eddi|zuHause> also, diagonal slopes are steeper than normal ones
23:18:03  <Cutter> right
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23:19:44  <Brokkoli> ah now i understand shich slopes you mean ;)
23:20:04  <Brokkoli> w
23:20:39  <Cutter> what about one rail half sloped half levelled?
23:21:10  <Cutter> so the connection doesn't have to be in the middle of a cell
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23:26:54  <Eddi|zuHause> then you need at least 3 adjacent tiles for a complete slope, so you need tile-sets that cannot be split
23:27:09  <Eddi|zuHause> currently, each rail tile is handled individually
23:27:48  <Eddi|zuHause> so you need additional (program) infrastructure to handle multi-tile-rails
23:29:49  <Eddi|zuHause> which might be cool, because similar infrastructure could be used for wider road curves, two tile wide highways, it could be used as a basis for newgrf road stations
23:30:06  <Eddi|zuHause> but it is a hell lot of work, and it must be designed properly
23:30:09  <Bjarni> diagonal slopes will need quite a lot of coding. I guess Eddi|zuHause pointed out one major issue with the multi tile tracks
23:30:31  <Bjarni> but also slope handling for acceleration is hardcoded for one tile
23:31:03  <Bjarni> in fact quite a lot of stuff is hardcoded for the current use
23:31:24  <Bjarni> if this were easy to add, then it would have been done a long time ago ;)
23:32:02  <Bjarni> like signals in tunnels. If it were as easy as some people imagine then it would have been added years ago
23:34:02  <Bjarni> also regarding different grades of slopes: if it should be of any use then we would need a better resolution of height. Say we want half of the grade, then we would need a tile border that's say 3 and 1/2 over sea level, but we can only accept 3 or 4 in the current design
23:35:40  <Bjarni> <Cutter> so the connection doesn't have to be in the middle of a cell <-- currently all rail code is hardcoded to have the rails in the middle of a tile border. I guess it would be messy to change that
23:35:51  <Eddi|zuHause> the multi-tile-issue gets even worse, since they are actually multi-half-tile (people WILL demand to put two rails in parallel)
23:36:39  <Bjarni> I wouldn't mind the result, but recoding to allow this would be like starting over
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23:38:23  <Bjarni> I think ludde started coding 9 years ago. It goes without saying that changing something fundamental is hard at this time
23:38:34  <Bjarni> also it would waste a lot of the time already spent coding
23:39:35  <RS-SM> This game
23:39:45  <RS-SM> by the way, what engine is it, or is it some horrible custom make
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23:43:51  <Eddi|zuHause> whatever you mean by "horrible", the "TT engine" was created by Chris Sawyer by himself
23:45:56  <SmatZ> RS-SM: what game?
23:46:15  <RS-SM> oppen ttd
23:47:05  <SmatZ> RS-SM: what is bad about using "custom" engines? do you have any idea what engine could be used?
23:47:18  <RS-SM> no, I don't mind custom engines
23:47:24  <RS-SM> Its just from hearing all the code talk
23:47:35  <RS-SM> this game seems like it has 2 cores
23:48:48  <SmatZ> 2 cores?
23:49:30  <RS-SM> 2 core parts, since it acts like a early 90s DOS game, yet the modern hacks like that underground rail thing someone showed off
23:49:38  <Eddi|zuHause> you mean there would be less code-talk if it was a "non-custom-engine" (whatever that is)?
23:50:09  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, if only that "someone" would continue developing that :p
23:50:53  <Cutter> has openttd been rewritten from scratch?
23:51:25  <SmatZ> RS-SM: I don't think there's something "modern" about it...
23:51:34  <Cutter> or is it based on Chris Sawyer's code?
23:51:47  <RS-SM> II'mt trying to say cutter
23:51:49  <RS-SM> Er um..
23:53:19  <Eddi|zuHause> Cutter: it was disassembled
23:53:29  <Eddi|zuHause> and then rewritten in C
23:53:53  <Cutter> ok
23:54:34  <Nite_Owl> I thought it was C+ or did that come later
23:54:51  <Eddi|zuHause> that was done later
23:55:20  <Eddi|zuHause> large parts of the code are still C, which is just compiled as C++
23:57:06  <RS-SM> thanks Eddi
23:58:10  <petern> heh
23:58:22  <petern> should there be some universal game engine or somethiing? :o
23:58:52  <Aali> we should be using the crysis engine
23:59:10  <Brokkoli> great idea ;)
23:59:11  <Aali> you'll need one modern computer per train, but thats fine
23:59:22  <Eddi|zuHause> PS: ohloh says it would take 40 person years (i.e. 4 years with a 10 person team) and 2.2 Mio $ to rewrite openttd from scratch
23:59:58  <Brokkoli> Chris Sawyer himself didn't need that time...

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