Log for #openttd on 7th March 2009:
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00:10:23  <Yexo> Belugas: "I do not have neither the power neither the will to punish you." <- that's most likely not what you wanted to say
00:10:49  <Yexo> I think you're double negation it
00:11:01  <SpComb> "I have neither the power nor the will to ..."
00:11:01  <Yexo> s/on/ng/
00:11:12  <SpComb> silly germans
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00:20:37  <Sacro> SpComb: seconded
00:28:19  <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: anything specific causing this spontaneous outburst?
00:28:36  <SpComb> the double negations :)
00:29:05  <Eddi|zuHause> what do the germans have to do with those?
00:29:28  <NukeBuster> Belugas isn't German...
00:32:25  <SpComb> oh, I should assume less
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02:09:45  <Belugas> right...
02:10:08  <Belugas> i guess i should have better let that one out
02:10:34  <Belugas> or even better: i think i'll simpy leave out the forums's life for a very long time
02:10:44  <Belugas> it's way too depressing, these days
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06:50:00  <el_en> Saturday, the seventh of March, two thousand and nine, Anno Domini.
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07:12:31  <Alberth> at least for some of us
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09:44:20  <Meincfe> hello
09:45:18  <Meincfe> can ne 1 tell me how topacth Open TTD
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09:57:56  <Meincfe> hi
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09:58:32  <Eddi|zuHause> i have not understood a single word.
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10:26:43  <Alberth> He expected people to react very quickly :)
10:27:05  <planetmaker> i guess :P
10:27:20  <planetmaker> oh, and a wonderful good morning to all :)
10:33:35  <Splex> any big upgrades in openttd in the last couple months?
10:33:39  <Splex> and good morning to you
10:33:53  <Splex> or good evening...if you are in asia
10:35:06  <|Japa|> asia? eveming?
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10:35:23  <|Japa|> I'm in india, and it's 16:05
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10:37:00  <Eddi|zuHause> i guess in japan it's 18:36
10:37:26  <[wito]> more like 19:36, I think
10:38:48  <welshdragon> hmm
10:39:06  * welshdragon has built a single track line. but isn't sure if pbs will break
10:39:41  <Eddi|zuHause> PBS usually works fine with single track
10:39:53  <Eddi|zuHause> as long as you put signals only on the double track sections
10:41:23  <welshdragon> there are 'dynamic' (passing) loops
10:42:04  <Eddi|zuHause> you can put a signal halfway through the single track section, that increases throughput when two trains want to go into the same direction, but reduces overall capacity, because it can block with 3 trains
10:42:23  <Alberth> Splex: we have 0.7-beta 1, we can now download goodies in-game (newgrfs, scenario's, save-games)
10:42:30  <Eddi|zuHause> blocking risk can be reduced with one way signals, but that again reduces throughput
10:44:30  <welshdragon> thanks Eddi|zuHause
10:48:40  <Splex> alberth: cool, hows the progress on the new graphics?
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10:49:58  <bubersson> Splex: OpenGFX is done in moderate climate ;)
10:50:55  <Darkvater> it's a pity devving is halted on that
10:51:25  <Eddi|zuHause>,%207.%20Jan%201931.png <- single track sections are most effective when trains load rather long
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10:52:50  <Splex> Darkvater, on what?
10:52:57  <Darkvater> opengfx
10:54:18  <Splex> opengfx is drop-in replacement?
10:54:24  <Splex> how about the 32bpp gfx?
10:54:48  <Darkvater> mwa I'm not too fond of 32bpp
10:55:10  <Darkvater> there is no coherent style, no coordination, i don't see it becoming anything in the near future
10:55:16  <Darkvater> especially the BIG-tile version
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11:05:48  <|Japa|> I want an OTTD version of the cartoon set from simutrans
11:08:33  <Splex> would be nice if there was a 3d viewer... then all the objects/buildings could begin as simple 3d objects, people could create the upgrades over time.
11:08:43  <Splex> i don't see the reason for going to 32bbp... why not just go 3d
11:10:09  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm going away for probably about a month.
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11:10:20  <Splex> lol
11:10:31  <Splex> that was abrupt
11:10:44  <Darkvater> don't bother coming back, ey
11:11:37  <Splex>
11:11:42  <Splex> actually that comic set looks pretty cool
11:11:45  <Splex> easy to see everything
11:12:07  <Splex> does simutrans aim to compete with openttd?
11:12:40  <|Japa|> no
11:13:35  <Ammler> can't, it would have alreadyl lost ;-)
11:13:50  <Darkvater> both games have their respective strengths
11:16:40  <Darkvater> OMG
11:16:42  <Darkvater>
11:16:48  <Darkvater> "My bees are in California pollinating almonds," he said. "In the middle of March they are going to be trucked all the way across the United States all the way back to Florida to pollinate oranges then they are trucked another thousand miles north to pollinate apples in Pennsylvania.
11:16:53  <Darkvater> that's fucking sick
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11:18:48  <[wito]> So who'll be making the newGRF with beehives, apple farms and orange farms? ;D
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11:24:08  <Splex> they talk about the bees having various ailments...  did they ever consider that they need to STOP SPRAYING?
11:24:16  <Splex> like their deaths are natural... hah
11:24:44  <Darkvater> but that would mean less profit
11:25:15  <[wito]> also, animals DO do weird things. :P
11:25:21  <[wito]> Bees are no exception
11:28:25  <Splex> surely not as weird as the animals called humans.
11:28:48  <Splex> Darkvater.... yeah... less profit,  they would rather make more profit at the expense of everyone else
11:29:11  <Splex> just like the mountaintop removal coal mining
11:29:53  <Splex>
11:30:05  <Splex> ""Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. said this about the Coal River Valley: ”I flew over these mountains and I saw what [the coal companies] were doing and if the American people could see what I saw there would be a revolution in this country
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11:34:28  <Alberth> Oh, how much we care about the environment.
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11:41:17  <Splex> lol....  its funny when people say 'SAVE THE EARTH'.... the earth doesn't need saving... we are nothing but fleas on this earth...  its up to us if we want to survive on this earth.
11:43:15  <Splex> brb
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12:34:08  <[wito]> anyone know of any newGRFs that adds late-1800s trains?
12:34:45  <Ammler> 2cc/nars2...
12:35:28  <[wito]> I know the Japanese train set goes back to around 1920ish, no?
12:35:32  <[wito]> 2cc?
12:36:07  <Ammler> the feature is a young OpenTTD only thing, so there aren't many sets, yet.
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12:40:33  <[wito]> what is 2cc?
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12:42:42  <[wito]> oh, hah
12:42:43  <[wito]> nm
12:44:34  <[wito]> 2cc only goes back to 1913, tho'
12:51:56  <[wito]> heh
12:52:12  <[wito]> except monorail, which goes all the way back to 1880ish. :P
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12:57:29  <Ammler> [wito]: no monorail in 2cc
12:57:44  <[wito]> Ammler: yeah there is
12:57:49  <[wito]> it's used for metro lines
12:58:13  <Ammler> which means, no monorail :P
12:58:25  <petern> i have a version of that that works properly ;)
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13:01:12  <[wito]> so the tracs are supposed to look like metro tracks, I take it? :P
13:01:39  <Alberth> The C++ compilers nowadays give way too many warnings :P , now I have to make my patch a whole lot bigger.
13:01:46  <Ammler> or using monorail and metro the same time, I guess ;-)
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13:03:23  <Alberth> I like the idea of a monorail running through the city streets and a tram driving 300+ km/h.
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13:06:22  <[wito]> Alberth: 300km/h+ trams are simply uneconomic
13:06:28  <Alberth> I'd like to extend the WindowDesc data structure with two fields. What would be better, modifying all instances to a constructor call with optional additional fields, or adding "NULL, 0" to each of the instances?
13:06:31  <[wito]> the start-stopping makes it silly. :P
13:07:13  <Alberth> I have seen cities that cover a large part of the map. There it may be useful
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13:09:55  <[wito]> true
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13:15:38  <Ammler> Alberth: subway :P
13:17:11  <Alberth> you won't need any form of heating in the houses, the air friction of trams driving through the tunnels would generate enough heat probably :)
13:17:50  <Alberth> Blowing people off their feet at the stations :)
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13:25:40  <Alberth> hello Wolf01
13:25:44  <Wolf01> hello
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13:59:34  <el_en>
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14:29:13  <[wito]> are self-plopping industries tied to the date?
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15:20:31  <Wolf01> the bananas' signup terms must be updated since now there are scenarios and heightmaps too
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16:11:51  <[wito]> What is the £300 'Other' expense?
16:12:37  <Aali> life insurance
16:13:30  <[wito]> :P
16:13:47  <|Japa|> I was wonderig
16:13:58  <Alberth> or rent for the HQ, we are not sure.
16:14:12  <[wito]> Well, I don't have a HQ yet, so can't be that. :P
16:14:26  <Rubidium> fees for the chamber of commerce ;)
16:14:30  <goodger> Alberth: you already paid to build the sodding HQ, you can't rent it ¬.¬
16:15:56  <Alberth> Maintenance costs for all the statues then?
16:16:09  <[wito]> Alberth: no statues. :P
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16:16:38  <goodger> humm
16:16:47  <|Japa|> when I start a game and immediateley pay off my loan, there's still a monthly other payment
16:16:48  <goodger> well, the expense is being generated by code
16:17:00  <goodger> it must be possible to find out what it is
16:17:20  <Alberth> goodger: sure, it is just that nobody bothered to find out exactly.
16:17:23  <[wito]> it could be an adjustor to avoid passive companies
16:17:33  <[wito]> designed to do exactly that and nothing else
16:17:56  <goodger> possibly
16:18:15  <Darkvater> |Japa|: don't you know it costs to borrow money? Even if you had it for one day?
16:18:22  <goodger> though it'd take a long time to prevent a passive company with a £300pa cost
16:18:23  <Darkvater> banks are no charity institutions mind you
16:18:41  <goodger> specifically, 334 years before slipping into the read
16:18:42  <goodger> *red
16:19:17  <|Japa|> well, a long as it stays that, I can still watch an AI game
16:19:48  <petern> isn't it £300 a month?
16:19:49  <db48x> salary for the CEO
16:19:55  <petern> oh, no
16:19:58  <petern> hm
16:20:00  <Rubidium> banks are thieves, con artists and a legalised form of gambling
16:21:02  <Darkvater> hehe, frustrated? ;)
16:21:04  <[wito]> goodger: no
16:21:25  <[wito]> because in order to get your expenses as low as possible you'd have to repay all loan
16:21:35  <[wito]> so after the first year you'd be at least -300
16:22:07  <Rubidium> Darkvater: no, I just know too much about how banks actually work
16:22:31  <Darkvater> Rubidium: exactly like you described :)
16:23:00  <Darkvater> it's incredible that you can make so much profits, even percentually for doing nothing more than pushing OTHER people's money around
16:23:07  <Darkvater> something's really fucked up in the world
16:23:18  <Rubidium> like did you know that if you transfer money from one savings account to another that even though it seems to be on the other savings account, withdrawing it the same day will cause debit interest?
16:23:51  <Darkvater> yes...I noticed. I was furious by the way (it was within the same bank even!)
16:24:01  <Darkvater> I called them, gave'em hell and got the money back :)
16:24:10  <Rubidium> for the interest money gets basically withdrawn at 0:00 and money gets added 23:59, i.e. you lose a day of interest
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16:25:41  <db48x> banks earn money by making loans to businesses
16:25:50  <db48x> you could do that directly, if you wanted
16:26:29  <Darkvater> db48x: hehe, funny. If they really just did that, there would be no worldwide crisis right now
16:27:33  <Rubidium> did you also know that if I open a bank account and put 1 million on it that the bank then may (and will!) lend out several millions? And if they 'rinse' and 'repeat' that they lend out several tens of millions for that single million that is actually in the bank?
16:28:06  <Darkvater> about tenfold, yes
16:28:30  <Rubidium> which is why they get into HUGE problems when everybody withdraws a few percent of their savings OR when a few percent can't repay their loans
16:28:34  <db48x> they can only do that by borrowing the extra from somewhere else thoguh
16:28:48  <db48x> they don't magically create the money
16:28:56  <Rubidium> db48x: THEY DO
16:29:18  <Darkvater> ah, the innocent mind ;), what joyful times those were
16:29:42  <Darkvater> hmm, question: anyone know of an easy, simple and fast rsync program for windows?
16:29:58  <Rubidium> use wubi ;)
16:30:16  <Darkvater> eh, I don't want ubuntu on windows :)
16:30:17  <Alberth> What bothers me big time is that a simple money transfer from Holland to the UK costs 20 euro's just for the transfer.
16:30:37  <Darkvater> the UK should just introduce the EURO
16:31:03  <stillunknown> Alberth: transaction costs?
16:31:10  <Darkvater> hmm, deltacopy looks interesting
16:31:17  <Alberth> stillunknown: yep :(
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16:33:48  <stillunknown> Alberth: i thought money transfers within the EEG were free of transaction costs if done proplerly?
16:33:58  <Darkvater> stillunknown: only euro countries
16:34:46  <frosch123> did you know that lehmann paid boni of average 0 000 per staff in 2007 :)
16:34:48  <goodger> yeah, I was once charged £10 to receive a transfer of £26.99 from Germany
16:35:18  <Darkvater> frosch123: did you know that Morgan Stanley paid a few billion in bonuses with government bailout money?
16:35:52  <Rubidium> db48x: you should watch "Money as debt"
16:36:22  <Alberth> I don't know how much money owen gets from main-land Europe, but it may be useful to setup a bank account at the other side of the channel just to avoid these costs.
16:36:25  <frosch123> Darkvater: yes, but those were for the past.
16:36:29  <stillunknown> Darkvater: well, my online banking system says otherwise, the UK is part of the European Economic Space (or whatever it's called)
16:36:54  <Darkvater> yes but with public money paid to prevent MS from going bankrupt? that's just wrong, really, really wrong
16:37:16  <Alberth> stillunknown: do a test, give owen some money, and see how much the transaction costs
16:37:21  <orudge> well
16:37:29  <orudge> I don't know what the transaction costs are on the other side
16:37:37  <Darkvater> I usually pay through paypal never cost me a thing
16:37:39  <orudge> my bank tends to charge me £1 to receive from Europe these day
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16:37:43  <orudge> (I'm sure they didn't used to, but oh well)
16:37:56  <orudge> as for PayPal, I get charged fees to receive money from anywhere
16:38:09  <orudge> with the separation of my business from my personal stuff though, I will likely get a personal PayPal account, which will be fee-free
16:38:13  <orudge> which would be better for OpenTTD, etc
16:38:16  <Alberth> orudge: would that mean it is cheaper to have you pay the transaction costs?
16:38:23  <orudge> Alberth: I doubt it
16:38:33  <orudge> I get charged the £1 anyway by my bank
16:39:56  <orudge> [16:30:15] <Alberth> What bothers me big time is that a simple money transfer from Holland to the UK costs 20 euro's just for the transfer. <-- €20, really?
16:39:59  <orudge> that is a rather silly amount
16:40:14  <orudge> I think most people who transfer money to me from Europe pay very little fees, if anything
16:40:17  <orudge> as in a couple of euros at most
16:40:39  <Alberth> yeah, I thought so too. 15 euro fixed cost, and some small percentage with a minimum of 5 euro :(
16:40:51  <stillunknown> I think it can be fee-less, if you have an IBAN and BIC number.
16:40:54  <orudge> I think it costs me £20 or something to send money to Australia
16:41:02  <orudge> but not to Europe, heh
16:41:05  <orudge> I do of course have an IBAN and BIC
16:41:09  * goodger pays about fifteen quid a time to pay his european royalty-payees
16:41:12  <Alberth> stillunknown: no, i used those
16:41:33  <goodger> fortunately they are contracted to have said amount deducted from said royalties, but nonetheless
16:42:24  <stillunknown> Alberth: which bank?
16:42:59  <Alberth> stillunknown: Postbank, ING nowadays
16:43:24  <stillunknown> Alberth: check the online system, it clearly says there is no fee if done properly
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16:56:08  <petern> pom te pom
16:59:26  <orudge> you're a pom
16:59:48  <petern> no u
17:04:15  <frosch123> yeah, usually I type "=" instead of "==". Now I managed to do it the other way around \o/
17:06:17  <goodger> \o/
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17:18:29  <Zuu> In delphi you have := instead of = for assignments and = instead of == for comparsion. That I handle quite fine. But VB(A) is different, there you need to use = for both cases, which comfuses me sometimes :)
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17:23:01  <goodger> Zuu: that's because it's a bastardised BASIC, and BASIC was designed to be simple like that
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17:30:27  <Alberth> I get a compiler warning in fios.cpp:
17:31:08  <Alberth> (local copy of clean trunk)
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17:35:06  <frosch123> cool attribute, never heard of it :)
17:35:20  <Alberth> me neither
17:36:00  <SmatZ> frosch123: Alberth __attribute__((warn_unused_result)) or so
17:36:16  <SmatZ> I was thinking about use it for MallocT-like functions...
17:36:24  <frosch123> SmatZ: that is also written in the paste :)
17:36:41  <SmatZ> frosch123: right :)
17:36:49  <SmatZ> *using
17:37:15  <frosch123> who would be so stupid to not use the result of malloc?
17:37:42  <SmatZ> frosch123: yeah, that was the reason why I didn't apply that ;)
17:37:49  <SmatZ> though, someone could misuse ReallocT...
17:37:59  <frosch123> :)
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17:57:23  <Alberth> This looks like a good patch:
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17:58:35  <Rubidium> nah, it doesn't
17:59:19  <el_en> it certainly doesn't.
18:00:17  <Alberth> ?
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18:01:41  <el_en> misuse of assert.
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18:02:05  <SmatZ> Alberth: update to most recent revision
18:03:04  <Rubidium> 1) don't treat system responses with asserts because in most cases bad system responses happen when asserts are disabled (as per Murphy's law)
18:03:24  <Alberth> ah, much nicer indeed.
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18:04:09  <Rubidium> 2) someone might intentionally create a file where the return value would be 0 thus asserting unneededly for lots of people when it gets distributed via bananas or the forum
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18:08:07  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r15634 /trunk/src/fios.cpp: -Fix (r15632): some compilers seem to warn about the return value of fscanf.
18:08:17  <SmatZ> CIA-1: you are late
18:08:38  <el_en> 2.5) assert is for catching conditions that are supposed to be impossible, things that should never happen.  an input file containing too few integers *is not* an impossible situation, it *can* happen easily.
18:09:33  <Alberth> right, less assert(), more 'return failed' :)
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18:12:45  <Darkvater> el_en: well, we've used this idiom for a very long time; basically: "do not trust the user"
18:13:06  <Darkvater> eg, in the beginning all CMD_ commands were checked using asserts :O
18:13:15  <Darkvater> we used to believe in the good of man
18:13:37  <Alberth> that didn't last long, I suppose :)
18:13:48  <Darkvater> no, not too long
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18:21:43  <|Japa|> #1 in the list of people I don't trust: me
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18:23:00  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r15635 /trunk/src/ (roadveh_cmd.cpp station_base.h): -Fix [FS#2707]: don't allow more than 64 road vehicles to reserve a slot at a single road stop. 255 + 1 gives trouble, but 64 is even more than the roadstop would be able to handle within the slot timeout time.
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18:58:49  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r15636 /trunk/src/lang/ (korean.txt unfinished/greek.txt):
18:58:49  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2009-03-07 18:58:32
18:58:49  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: greek - 211 fixed, 4 changed by hellis (215)
18:58:49  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: korean - 2 changed by dlunch (2)
19:06:15  <Alberth> finished!
19:06:47  <Alberth> (or rather, the let the games begin)
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19:37:35  <Darkvater> .c
19:37:38  <Darkvater> eh :P
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19:38:58  <frosch123> trying to sync a pre c++ patch?
19:39:10  <Sacro> hmm
19:39:12  <frosch123> s/sync/apply/
19:39:21  <Sacro> if you open an old PBS game will it convert it to YAPP?
19:39:32  <petern> no
19:39:42  <Sacro> :( warum nicht?
19:40:36  <frosch123> the readme says, old savegame should be send to sacro, he would convert them by hand
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19:44:35  <SmatZ> Sacro: the old-PBS design is very different from YAPP
19:45:44  <Sacro> it should transfer over fine
19:45:59  <Sacro> you can replace YAPP quite easily i'm sure
19:46:22  <SmatZ> how would you like to convert bidir PBS?
19:46:36  <SmatZ> there's no equivalent
19:49:01  <Sacro> i don't recall there ever being bidir PBS
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19:50:15  <SmatZ> so go and try r3472
19:50:28  <SmatZ> or rather r3470
19:52:28  <petern> i am so glad i got it removed ;p
19:53:43  <Sacro> hmm
19:53:48  <Sacro> so how did bidir pbs work...
19:54:02  <petern> it didn't work
19:54:03  <petern> it sucked
19:54:11  <SmatZ> 8-)
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20:07:20  <[wito]> any way to upgrade town-built road bridges with tramway?
20:14:35  <frosch123> use the usual tram-build tool and click on the bridgehead
20:14:59  <frosch123> same for tunnels and competitor's stuff
20:18:41  <[wito]> hmm
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20:20:05  <[wito]> worked
20:20:11  <[wito]> dunno why it didn't work before
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20:53:46  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truebrain * r15637 /trunk/src/gfx.cpp:
20:53:46  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Fix: when you try to protect something from doing something it shouldn't be
20:53:46  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: doing, make sure that the actions happening after that, doesn't start doing what
20:53:46  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: it shouldn't be doing. This of course would only happen in rare corner cases.
20:54:43  <Wolf01> 'night
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20:55:36  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truebrain * r15638 /trunk/src/ai/ai_config.cpp: -Fix: there is a time in your life you should stop coding for a project. You know that time is there when you make two huge mistakes in just 10 lines of code. I wish you all the best of luck :) (ps: HUGE mistakes!)
20:58:19  <frosch123> comparing unsigned stuff with zero is also my most favorite mistake :)
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21:36:03  <el_en> lolberg
21:36:25  <el_en> seven of nine acting as the doctor
21:36:26  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: yexo * r15639 /trunk/src/ (lang/english.txt town_cmd.cpp): -Change: When you disable "Towns are allowed to build roads", pressing "Expand" in the town window in the scenario editor will no longer build roads.
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21:41:28  <el_en> succeeding well in doing so.
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21:57:15  <petern> doctor who?
21:57:26  <Rubidium> the 11th one
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21:58:07  <Rubidium> petern: have you seen FS#2708?
21:58:25  <petern> no
21:58:26  <petern> but
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22:07:28  <Aali> any progress on the raging memleak issue?
22:07:49  <frosch123> IIRC noone could reproduce it
22:08:15  <Aali> I can reproduce FS#2706
22:08:38  <Aali> in r15591
22:10:13  <Rubidium> the major problem is that it's hard to measure 'leaking' against normal building up caches, especially in the first few minutes
22:10:41  <Aali> on fastforward I can see the memory usage going up by the second
22:11:03  <Aali> we'll see if it slows down
22:11:06  <Rubidium> I can't (on Linux!)
22:11:43  <Aali> this is a windows machine, maybe that has something to do with it?
22:12:13  <Rubidium> that's something I've been saying for weeks
22:13:02  <Aali> funny thing
22:13:18  <Aali> if I keep it minimized, it keeps increasing forever
22:13:53  <Aali> open the window, then minimize it again, and mem usage drops by 1-5MB
22:13:56  <Sacro> forever?
22:14:03  <Sacro> that's quite an impossible thing to test
22:14:33  <frosch123> Aali: then try to locate the problem. alternate dedicated server/client, all news/no news, different video/sound drivers (esp. the 'null' ones), ...
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22:40:59  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: smatz * r15640 /trunk/src/network/network.cpp: -Fix [FS#2712]: game crashes when network pools are empty, so always allocate at least one pool block
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22:41:25  <heffer> anyone here for some quick debugging?
22:41:56  <heffer> i'll try to get the compile error in english
22:42:04  <PeCeT_full> hey, who has the newest (I mean 0.6.0-0.7.0 versions) version of OpenTTD for PSP?
22:42:37  <Rubidium> PeCeT_full: nobody?
22:42:49  <Rubidium> last I know of is 0.5-ish
22:42:57  <heffer> here we go:
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22:42:58  <heffer> fileio.cpp: In function 'void ChangeWorkingDirectory(const char*)':
22:42:58  <PeCeT_full> I have only 0.5.3
22:43:06  <heffer> fileio.cpp:810: error: invalid conversion from 'const char*' to 'char*'
22:43:47  <glx> Aali: leaks detection on windows is quite hard
22:44:08  <SmatZ> heffer: update to trunk
22:44:08  <Rubidium> heffer: what're you using? compiler, os, etc?
22:44:08  <glx> heffer:revision?
22:44:25  <Aali> glx: indeed
22:44:33  <heffer> Fedora rawhide (to become Fedora 11) using gcc 4.4 with trunk from a few minutes ago
22:45:02  <heffer> gcc-c++-4.4.0-0.22.x86_64
22:45:51  <SmatZ> heffer: ottd is regularly tested for compilation under variaous versions of gcc ranging from gcc 2.95 to gcc4.4
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22:47:58  <heffer> well for me it does not seem to work
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22:48:21  <SmatZ> [23:44:17] <SmatZ> heffer: update to trunk
22:48:22  <SmatZ> [23:44:17] <Rubidium> heffer: what're you using? compiler, os, etc?
22:48:24  <SmatZ> [23:44:17] <glx> heffer:revision?
22:48:49  <Yexo> strrchr strikes again
22:48:51  <Rubidium> so what mutilations does fedora do to gccc
22:49:30  <Rubidium> oh... and fedora core 4 sucks
22:49:32  <heffer> well we switched to gcc 4.4 about a week ago and since in fedora it is set to be strict it revealed some bugs
22:49:36  <glx> heffer: "from a few minutes ago" is not a revision ;)
22:50:29  <Rubidium> especially because a few could (with a not-so-liberal view) mean anything between 0 and 5 minutes
22:50:32  <heffer> well if nothing in fileio.cpp changed within the last 20 minutes my revision could be assumed as being 15640
22:50:58  <heffer> but if it helps i could check out the newest trunk right now and try again
22:52:29  <heffer> Rubidium, if you hate FC4 you should try F11 when it's out :P
22:52:49  <heffer> i'm sure it can break your system, too
22:53:06  <Rubidium> that doesn't have the same compiler etc. as FC4
22:53:21  <Rubidium> which is kinda needed to debug FS#2703
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22:56:17  <Rubidium> Patch0: gcc44-hack.patch
22:56:41  <Rubidium> that sounds very promising when it's in gcc.spec
22:58:08  <heffer> sure :)
22:59:31  <heffer> should i file a bug or is this something that can be solved quickly?
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23:01:31  <SmatZ> I wonder where is defined strrchr should return "const char *"
23:01:44  <SmatZ> in what standard
23:02:05  <Rubidium> c++
23:02:14  <SmatZ> hmm bad :-x
23:02:39  <SmatZ> so there are different definitions for C-like strrchr and C++-like strrchr?
23:02:45  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r15641 /trunk/src/fileio.cpp: -Fix: some gcc compilers seem to be chosing the C++ standard for strrchr, others the C standard...
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23:03:44  <heffer> i'll try that
23:06:08  <SmatZ> const char * strstr ( const char * s1 , const char * s2 );
23:06:10  <SmatZ>       char * strstr (       char * s1 , const char * s2 );
23:06:36  <Rubidium> char *strstr(const char *s1, const char *s2) <- in C
23:07:04  <SmatZ> char *strrchr(const char *s, int c);
23:07:09  <SmatZ> ............
23:07:15  <SmatZ> pasted the wrong function, sorry :)
23:07:38  <SmatZ> but it seems if strrchr(char*,int) was used, it would return char* too
23:08:03  <heffer> works
23:09:03  <heffer> ok. i'm off then. thank you for your help. it's much appreciated
23:09:06  <SmatZ> hmm, filename is char*...
23:09:14  <SmatZ> I am failing to understand this behaviour then
23:09:39  <Rubidium> SmatZ: filename?
23:09:58  <SmatZ> ......
23:10:06  <SmatZ> oh am I failing today!
23:10:23  <SmatZ> indeed it seems to work as expected
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23:12:02  * Rubidium is going to break FC4 to the point that it doesn't openttd to crash in it's own libs
23:12:18  <Rubidium> or that the fracking thing does want to find out what packages it can update
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23:18:50  <energetic> `how would anyone suggest implementing a goalserver?
23:19:32  <energetic> simply patch ottd? or...?
23:21:52  <Aali> now this is just weird
23:22:17  <Aali> the minimize/maximize trick to kill the memleak works with the console window for a dedicated server
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23:25:34  <Rubidium> so what does minimize/maximize of the console window change?
23:25:44  <Aali> who knows
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23:27:53  <SmatZ> so even minimising+maximising console window in Windows fixes the memory problem?
23:27:53  <Rubidium> or rather, what does it trigger in OpenTTD? glx do you got a clue 'bout that?
23:28:01  <glx> none
23:28:11  <Aali> it doesn't "fix" the memory problem
23:28:17  <SmatZ> dihedral's nighly server has the same problem
23:28:31  <Aali> but memory usage drops to "normal" levels
23:28:37  <Aali> and then starts building up again
23:28:45  <Rubidium> SmatZ: that's his VPS that's acting up!
23:28:47  <glx> SmatZ: hmm he can use valgrind
23:29:04  <Aali> it seems the longer you wait, the more it drops
23:29:30  <Aali> if you let it go up to like 50MB, you can drop it to 15 in one go, but around 20-24 nothing happens
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23:30:58  <Aali> actually, this seems really random
23:31:07  <Aali> ugh
23:31:39  <petern> heh
23:31:57  <petern> i'm fairly sure minimizing putty has absolutely no affect on openttd within screen...
23:32:44  <Aali> this is obviously some stupid windows thing
23:32:55  <Aali> the question is what openttd is doing "wrong"
23:32:56  <petern> the memleak isn't
23:33:28  <Aali> but the window thing "fixing" it is
23:34:20  <SmatZ> Aali: maximising/minimising helps? and what about just giving focus to that window?
23:34:41  <Aali> focus does nothing
23:35:49  <Aali> hmm, can you fastforward with -v null?
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23:36:13  <SmatZ> Aali: it ffs automatically iirc
23:36:42  <Aali> oh, -v null doesn't even work
23:36:44  <Aali> great
23:36:47  <SmatZ> and stops after 1000 ticks I think
23:37:07  <Aali> right, thats what I'm seeing
23:37:19  <Aali> why is that?
23:37:25  <SmatZ> it's only useful for benchmarking
23:38:00  <SmatZ> but if you mass something like -v null:ticks=1000000
23:38:05  <SmatZ> it will run for 1000000 ticks
23:38:07  <SmatZ> apparently
23:39:52  <Aali> .. and now I'm getting desyncs
23:39:54  <Aali> great
23:40:54  <Aali> dedicated server running the save from FS#2706, minus the AIs, connect with a GUI client
23:40:59  <Aali> desyncs every time
23:41:26  <glx> real desync or lost connection?
23:41:29  <SmatZ> yeah, server runs much faster than client...
23:41:42  <Aali> real desync
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23:41:53  <Aali> server is not using -v null
23:42:05  <SmatZ> I think you get "desync" if server sends two sync frames during client's connecting procedure
23:42:24  <Aali> its not instant
23:46:44  <Aali> so, anyway, made some progress, the intro screen does not leak as much as that savegame :P
23:47:12  <Aali> perhaps not at all
23:47:47  <SmatZ> Aali: does that happen only in multiplayer?
23:47:53  <Aali> nope
23:48:00  <Aali> leaks in single player all the same
23:48:24  <SmatZ> so SP leaks, but intro doesn't? ...
23:48:31  <SmatZ> and furthermore, those are not leaks
23:48:46  <SmatZ> but something like waiting events or whatever
23:48:50  <Aali> the savegame from 2706 leaks
23:48:52  <Aali> yeah
23:48:59  <Aali> intro does not
23:49:04  <SmatZ> because it gets freed when you deminimise the window...
23:49:14  <Aali> indeed
23:49:57  <Aali> is noai/squirrel throwing around a bunch of exceptions or something?
23:52:16  <glx> yes, suspend/resume is done with exceptions
23:52:46  <Aali> well, no AI's (no pun intended) are running, so that shouldn't happen, right?
23:53:26  <Aali> intro does not leak even when run as a standard SP game
23:54:13  <SmatZ> AI events are created even when no AIs are running... but are not dispatched to anyone :)
23:54:33  <SmatZ> can in theory it has something to do with Squirrel leaking?
23:54:49  <SmatZ> is GC called even when no AIs are running?
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23:55:14  <Aali> let me start some AI's on the intro game, see what happens
23:55:22  <glx> squirel does nothing if there are no AIs
23:56:23  <Zahl> Aali: just read your flyspray comment, minimizing does the trick here too
23:56:55  <glx> hmm minimizing means no drawing
23:57:11  <Aali> minimizing doesn't stop the leak
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23:57:29  <Aali> nothing stops the leak
23:57:30  <SmatZ> Aali: does minimising start the leak?
23:57:43  <Aali> doubt it
23:57:49  <Aali> lets see
23:58:00  <Zahl> isn't it that windows pages out stuff from applications if you minimize them? so it might be the "dead" memory just goes to the pagefile and won't be taken into account by the taskmanager
23:58:14  <SmatZ> so it starts "leaking" while playing, but when you minimise+unminimise it, it releases memory
23:58:16  <Yexo> <@SmatZ> is GC called even when no AIs are running? <- a seperate vm is created per AI that is running, so the GC can't even run without an AI
23:58:44  <Aali> SmatZ: seems so
23:58:53  <Zahl> or is the memory really _freed_ when you minimize
23:59:02  <SmatZ> Yexo: I see...
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23:59:43  <Zahl> because if it is, it might be a gdi issue
23:59:56  <Aali> it happens to dedicated servers

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