Log for #openttd on 1st August 2009:
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00:28:33  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: yexo * r17016 /trunk/src/ai/api/ (ai_company.cpp ai_company.hpp ai_company.hpp.sq): -Add [NoAI]: AICompany::Get/Set PresidentGender
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01:01:43  <Nite_Owl> Hello all
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08:33:59  <Priski> 0.7 nearing release :)
08:35:00  <Rubidium> 0.7 of what?
08:38:17  <Rubidium> or is it that glx was not here?
08:40:12  *** Rubidium changed the topic of #openttd to: 0.7.2 | Website: * (BaNaNaS: bananas, translator: translator, server list: servers, nightly-builds: nightly, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | #openttd.notice for SVN notices | UTF-8 please | No Unauthorised Bots | English only
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09:01:28  <Rubidium> hi Pikka
09:10:08  <TrueBrain> morning all
09:11:20  <Rubidium> morning... you're late, it's already after I've broken fasting
09:11:30  <TrueBrain> you are early
09:15:52  <Rubidium> and Ido has overtaken Urdu in the race to the 'missing strings' leader board ;)
09:16:16  <Pikka> hello
09:16:43  <TrueBrain> wow. someone translated 23 strings? I am so impressed
09:17:03  <Rubidium> that's 5 more than a minute ago
09:17:53  <TrueBrain> Rubidium: if there are only commands in a string, is it then safe to assume the translator doesn't need to translate, and can we pre-translate a string?
09:19:06  <Rubidium> 'only' commands as strictly as "no characters between } and {, : and { and } and end-of-line?
09:19:22  <Rubidium> if so, then yes
09:19:23  <TrueBrain> as in: {YELLOW}{WAYPOINT}
09:19:34  <Rubidium> that's safe
09:19:48  <TrueBrain> and shit like: STR_NULL, STR_EMPTY, STR_BLACK, ...
09:20:51  <Rubidium> {YELLOW}{STATION} {STATIONFEATURES} probably too, but STR_FORMAT_DATE_* probably not (order differs per country)
09:21:40  <TrueBrain> well, pretranslating simply means it is translated, but a translator can change it later on if he likes :p
09:23:49  <Rubidium> TrueBrain: but it is way more likely for a translator to do the right thing when he encounters STR_FORMAT_DATE_* during translating than when in game wondering whether the date format can be changed and assuming it is hardcodec
09:24:03  <TrueBrain> true .. in that case we can't do any string
09:24:04  <Rubidium> +|
09:24:17  <TrueBrain> as STR_FORMAT_DATE_TINY is not different than STR_BLACK_STATION
09:25:06  <Rubidium> TrueBrain: STR_BLACK_STATION can only have 1 order, STR_FORMAT_DATE_TINY can have 6
09:25:18  <TrueBrain> that is true
09:25:30  <TrueBrain> so everything with only colour or single positional commands can be pre-translated
09:25:33  <TrueBrain> will look into that then ;)
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10:01:12  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... is there a way to tell the kernel that i have a "hole" in my memory?
10:01:37  <TrueBrain> haha, after broken HD you now also have broken memory? :)
10:01:43  <TrueBrain> not your best month, is it? :)
10:01:47  <Eddi|zuHause> i've probably had that for years :p
10:05:14  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: ?
10:05:49  <Rubidium> oh,;a=blob;f=Documentation/bad_memory.txt;h=df84162132028d6771fc0da0649f54158bdac93c;hb=HEAD might even be more useful
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10:06:58  <TrueBrain> the power of just ... searching ;)
10:06:59  <TrueBrain> ghehe
10:07:05  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: alberth * r17017 /trunk/src/widget.cpp: -Fix (r17008): Setup padding for WWT_MATRIX.
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10:12:09  <Rubidium> TrueBrain: rather knowing that there was a patch ;)
10:12:31  <TrueBrain> :)
10:12:36  * Rubidium used to read lkml, now I only occasionally skim it
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10:18:51  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not really in the mood of compiling a kernel
10:19:04  <Eddi|zuHause> i think i'll try the memmap method
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10:19:32  <TrueBrain> run to the store and get for 40 euro new ram, twice as many as you hav enow?
10:19:53  <Eddi|zuHause> not really worth it, and kind of above my budget...
10:20:07  <TrueBrain> fair enough :)
10:20:15  <Rubidium> TrueBrain: won't happen for me :(
10:20:18  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd probably get an entirely new computer
10:20:34  <Rubidium> my computer doesn't like more memory ;)
10:20:47  <TrueBrain> Rubidium: mine neither :(
10:21:07  <Eddi|zuHause> i only have 1GB, and my board supports 3
10:22:14  <Rubidium> for what it's worth, my computer doesn't have enough memory for KDevelop
10:23:04  <Rubidium> but then, it using 5+GiB isn't nice either
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10:35:06  <Eddi|zuHause> i'll try a reboot now...
10:35:19  <Eddi|zuHause> someone pray for me ;)
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10:38:37  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: alberth * r17018 /trunk/src/rail_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#1833]: Take width of station type names into account in station builder window.
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10:42:30  <welshdragon> Can i delete AI companies from a single player or multiplayer game?
10:43:04  <Alberth> buy them
10:43:20  <welshdragon> aah, ok
10:43:40  <Yexo> TrueBrain: how is the ai doc main page generated? (where does the text come from)
10:43:42  * welshdragon doesn't really want to buy them, but will create a new company
10:44:01  <TrueBrain> Yexo: the general doc? Else you need to give me an url :)
10:44:07  <Yexo>
10:44:15  <Yexo> the "Documentation can differ from the API in your binaries!" and lines below
10:44:27  <TrueBrain> is inserted by some script
10:44:28  <TrueBrain> why?
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10:44:57  <Yexo> because I'd like to add a link there
10:45:04  <TrueBrain> gimme the details :p
10:45:09  <Yexo> one moment
10:45:42  <TrueBrain> cat annotated.html | sed 's#Here are the data structures with brief descriptions:#Documentation can differ from the API in your binaries!<br>The NoAI revision which match this documentation is @@revision<br>Latest binaries: <a href=""></a><br>Here are the data structures with brief descriptions:#g' | sed s/@@revision/$revision/ > index.html
10:45:45  <TrueBrain> is what happens
10:48:34  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: yexo * r17019 /trunk/ (4 files in 3 dirs): -Doc: add AI API changelog
10:49:08  <Yexo> there you have the details :p. A link to that new page would be nice
10:49:21  <TrueBrain> then we have to wait till it generates tonight
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10:49:23  <TrueBrain> then I can correct
10:49:28  <Yexo> that's no problem
10:49:39  <TrueBrain> which means you need to remind me ;)
10:49:53  <Yexo> filename to link to is "ai__changelog_8hpp.html"
10:50:11  <Yexo> why can't you change the script now?
10:51:56  <TrueBrain> if you are sure about the filename, I can
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10:53:45  <Yexo> I'm sute about that
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10:55:54  <TrueBrain> we will see tonight ;)
10:56:19  <Yexo> thanks :)
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10:58:45  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i'm not entirely sure whether that actually solved anything
10:59:25  <Yexo> welshdragon: in a singleplayer game, use "stop_ai <companynum>" in the console
10:59:34  <Yexo> it'll remove an AI company completely
11:04:51  <Eddi|zuHause> how about allowing two AIs to run in coop mode? :p
11:05:24  <Rubidium> coop without communication?
11:05:26  <Yexo> I see no reason to allow that
11:06:07  * TrueBrain smacks Eddi|zuHause with a brick or somethng :)
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11:07:30  * TrueBrain feels sorry and fill Eddi|zuHause with kisses :)
11:07:45  <Eddi|zuHause> no, it's fine, i totally deserved that :p
11:12:03  <frosch123> hmm, which ghost is translating greek all the time
11:13:18  <TrueBrain> isn't the name in the commit logs? :p
11:13:31  <Eddi|zuHause> greek - 1 changes by kinglee
11:13:32  <Eddi|zuHause> greek - 303 changes by fumantsu
11:14:44  <frosch123> but wt3 still says "needs translator", or does it need at more than one?
11:15:09  <TrueBrain> WT3 says that if less than 90% is translated
11:15:20  <Eddi|zuHause> that's an automatic calculation
11:15:29  <TrueBrain> (or no translators)
11:15:30  <Rubidium> frosch123: <90% untranslated || translators == 0 => "needs translator"
11:15:36  <frosch123> ok :)
11:15:51  <TrueBrain> nobody could find out a better way of indicating when there is a need for extra translators :)
11:16:14  <Eddi|zuHause> no cool business metrics for that?
11:21:22  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: what business metrics do you propose?
11:21:38  <Eddi|zuHause> i didn't study business...
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11:22:13  <Eddi|zuHause> i only got a glimpse of that stuff in software engineering
11:22:15  <Rubidium> so it could very well be business metrics
11:22:40  <welshdragon> Yexo: thank you
11:22:50  <Eddi|zuHause> so i know there exists stuff like that, which one could research for a proper check ;)
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11:36:34  <Eddi|zuHause2> nope, this didn't help a bit...
11:37:01  <TrueBrain> remove the faulty memory bank?
11:37:27  *** Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause
11:37:38  <Eddi|zuHause> i think there's more at fault than just the memory...
11:38:44  <Eddi|zuHause> i've suspected the north bridge or the graphics card at least once, too
11:39:09  <Eddi|zuHause> the majority of hangs seem to happen when playing video
11:39:32  <TrueBrain> then I suspect your PSU
11:39:47  <TrueBrain> too unstable +5 can cause significant crashes on any computer
11:40:11  <TrueBrain> a friend of mine solved her problems by removing a few USB devices ;)
11:40:19  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i don't really have any replacement PSUs
11:41:32  <Eddi|zuHause> but insufficient power could explain a few oddities, maybe...
11:41:44  <TrueBrain> it always results in random powerlosses to devices
11:41:46  <TrueBrain> HDs dropping
11:41:48  <TrueBrain> screens going blank
11:41:50  <TrueBrain> reboots
11:41:59  <Eddi|zuHause> aren't there sensors for that?
11:42:05  <TrueBrain> you can monitor your voltage
11:42:15  <TrueBrain> but in general there is nothing warning you for those things
11:42:38  <TrueBrain> in my experience it is the +5V which becomes highly unstable .. but I guess the same can happen to the +12V or even the CPU voltage (3.3V normally :p)
11:45:38  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... KSensors only lists CPU Temp...
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11:49:00  <Eddi|zuHause> argh... i hate everything...
11:49:05  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: if you want to know if that is the problem, remove as many devices as possible
11:49:14  <Eddi|zuHause> like my mouse wheel
11:49:21  <Eddi|zuHause> when i scroll up, it scrolls up
11:49:24  <Eddi|zuHause> when i scroll down, it scrolls up
11:49:35  <TrueBrain> ghehe, have had that once too :)
11:49:42  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: I think you really need a complete replacement :p
11:49:42  <Eddi|zuHause> but the majority of all actions are scrolling down...
11:51:54  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, besides the mouse wheel, the RMB doesn't work...
11:52:28  <Rubidium> a socialist mouse ;)
11:54:36  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't really have many non-essential devices...
11:55:45  <Eddi|zuHause> i only have two HDDs connected, one of which contains / and the other one /home
11:56:01  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r17020 /trunk/src/waypoint_cmd.cpp: -Fix: Recenter viewport of waypoint-gui after moving the sign.
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11:59:12  <TrueBrain> you are so screwed :p
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12:42:39  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: alberth * r17021 /trunk/src/main_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Use nested widgets for the main window.
12:43:09  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: alberth * r17022 /trunk/src/console_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Use nested widgets for the console window.
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13:05:28  <TrueBrain> the Django project has too many open bugs :s
13:06:19  <Rubidium> name me one (big) project that hasn't got open bugs
13:06:25  <TrueBrain> open bugs, okay
13:06:33  <TrueBrain> 1500 open bugs
13:06:34  <TrueBrain> not so much
13:07:30  <Rubidium> 3618 open bugs (for gcc)
13:07:44  <TrueBrain> given the size of gcc, that might be in the idea of acceptable
13:07:49  <TrueBrain> given the size of Django .. not so much
13:08:49  <TrueBrain> and at the very least someone can assign statuses to it
13:08:51  <TrueBrain> not 'New' ;)
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13:20:09  <Alberth> they do have a status between 'new' and 'working on it'?
13:20:32  <Rubidium> usually there's a confirmed
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13:23:06  <TrueBrain> stupid Django seems unable to do mass-deletes :p
13:25:19  <Rubidium> why do I associate mass-deletes with physics?
13:25:33  <TrueBrain> n oidea
13:28:29  <Alberth> no doubt there are very interesting physical effects when you flip the value of a lot of bits on the HD :p
13:30:01  <TrueBrain> one of the best things about C++, Python, ... really is the throwing of errors
13:30:08  <TrueBrain> avoids so much complexity of checking error results and shit
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15:45:31  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: alberth * r17023 /trunk/src/ (widget.cpp widget_type.h): -Revert (r16839): FillNestedArray() was less obsolete than anticipated.
15:49:30  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: alberth * r17024 /trunk/src/ (window.cpp window_gui.h): -Codechange: Allow InitNested to be done in two parts.
15:53:35  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: alberth * r17025 /trunk/src/waypoint_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Waypoint window using all the new goodies (based on work by Rubidium).
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16:17:44  <Yexo> one of the best things about C++, Python, ... really is the throwing of errors <- that really depends on how you use it, I came upon this code yesterday:
16:18:05  <TrueBrain> Yexo: LOL!
16:18:06  <TrueBrain> what?!
16:18:09  <TrueBrain> that is insane :)
16:19:20  <Yexo> that's the quality of code I've been working with over the last two weeks
16:19:29  <TrueBrain> that .... sucks :s
16:20:01  <Yexo> catch (Exception err) { throw err; } <- also very nice, as you won't can't see the previous call stack
16:20:13  <TrueBrain> hehe
16:20:18  <TrueBrain> 'throw' alone would be much better ;)
16:20:25  <Yexo> indeed
16:21:37  <valhallasw> related to throw....
16:22:07  * valhallasw searches reddit for the link
16:22:39  <valhallasw>
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16:25:08  <Yexo> That makes me wonder about constructs like this:
16:26:07  <Rubidium> undefined
16:26:46  <Yexo> and if the first line had read "int x = 3;"?
16:26:49  <TrueBrain> I think it is a stupid thing to write
16:26:56  <Yexo> it certainly is :)
16:27:00  <Rubidium> Yexo: 3
16:27:30  <valhallasw> Yexo: before the actual assignment, the throw is executed
16:27:32  <valhallasw> I think
16:27:42  <Yexo> that seems a logical explanation
16:27:53  <TrueBrain> I somehow doubt it is defined by any standard :p
16:28:09  <Rubidium> I think it is defined
16:28:32  <Rubidium> simply because throw is kind-of a goto
16:28:51  <TrueBrain> good argument why it would be defined by a standard ;)
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16:29:08  <TrueBrain> I think it says something about: implementation depending
16:30:41  <valhallasw> "a throw-expression which is an integral constant expression of integer type that evaluates to zero"
16:31:01  <valhallasw> which doesnt answer the question, of course
16:31:28  <TrueBrain> if (throw a) { printf("boe\n"); }
16:31:30  <TrueBrain> ghehe :)
16:31:54  <TrueBrain> int x = 1 << throw a;
16:32:12  <Yexo> int a = throw x ? thow y : throw z;
16:32:13  <TrueBrain> good to hide stuff in your code :)
16:32:35  <TrueBrain> printf("Welcome to my game, I am now going to ", throw you, " a nice ball")
16:32:57  <Yexo> :D
16:33:05  <Rubidium> A throw-expression is of type void. Code that executes a throw-expression is said to ``throw an exception;'' code that subsequently gets control is called a ``handler.'
16:33:59  <TrueBrain> int x = (void)
16:34:03  <TrueBrain> what does that do? :)
16:34:38  <Rubidium> foo.cpp:3: error: void value not ignored as it ought to be
16:35:15  <TrueBrain> but with 'throw' it does work, so I wonder what it gets assigned :p
16:36:13  <Rubidium> no, with throw that doesn't work, at least not with my gcc
16:36:37  <TrueBrain> int y = x > 4 ? x : throw std::out_of_range; <- but that does work?
16:36:48  <Rubidium> yes
16:36:49  <TrueBrain> I mean, then something doesn't start to add up
16:36:55  <TrueBrain> if int x = throw bla doesn't work
16:36:57  <TrueBrain> but the above does
16:37:21  <Rubidium> int x = throw => certainly wrong
16:37:52  <Rubidium> int x = a ? b : throw => simple way of throwing and doing assignment
16:38:26  <TrueBrain> weirdest syntax ever .. sometimes it is an expression, sometimes it is not
16:38:32  <TrueBrain> I wonder what MSVC thinks of it :p
16:40:12  <Rubidium> TrueBrain: it is an expression in all cases
16:40:14  <Yexo>  int x = a ? b : throw <- that doesn't compile for me
16:40:34  <Yexo> test.cpp:12: error: expected primary-expression before ';' token
16:41:12  <Rubidium> int main(int argc, char *argv[]) { int x = argc ? argc : throw; } <- works for me
16:42:17  <Yexo> ah, yes, that works
16:43:01  <Yexo> int y = x > 4 ? x : throw std::out_of_range; <- I was literally following that page, but throw std::out_of_range is not valid, it should be throw std::out_of_range("message")
16:44:38  <Zuu> Someone knows how to make a link to a category page as an internal wiki-link?
16:45:11  <KingJ> Extra : before the Category:XXX I think
16:45:14  <KingJ> e.g
16:45:19  <Zuu> [[Category:Compiling_OpenTTD|Compiling OpenTTD]] does not work. The link does not even appear
16:45:25  <KingJ> [[:Category:XXX]]
16:45:30  <Zuu> Ok
16:46:27  <Zuu> Thanks, that worked.
16:46:37  <KingJ> Excellent
16:46:51  <valhallasw> test.cpp:2: error: third operand to the conditional operator is of type 'void', but the second operand is neither a throw-expression nor of type 'void'
16:47:08  <valhallasw> for int i = argc < 2 ? 1 : (void) 0;
16:48:20  <TrueBrain> so it has special code to allow throw-expressions, cool :)
16:49:51  <Eddi|zuHause> and what exactly is the advantage over "if (~a) throw; x=b"?
16:50:14  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: well, your method is more readable
16:50:21  <TrueBrain> so that sounds like a terrible idea :p
16:55:15  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: you can use the ? in a "expression-list of a mem-initializer" and not the if
16:57:41  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r17026 /trunk/ (config.lib configure): -Fix [FS#3076]: "[bd]ash"-ism in configure
16:59:16  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r17027 /trunk/readme.txt: -Document: that Solaris needs gmake instead of make and generalise the compiling section a bit
16:59:43  <valhallasw> and besides, there's no way to win an obfuscated code contest with your construct, Eddi|zuHause
16:59:56  *** OwenS [] has joined #openttd
17:00:05  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r17028 /trunk/src/ai/api/ai_changelog.hpp: -Fix (r17019): a function and class were not mentioned in the changelog
17:00:16  <OwenS> Lag: 666ms. Devlish!:P
17:00:24  <TrueBrain> you guys commit too much lately
17:00:27  <TrueBrain> it starts to annoy me
17:00:29  <TrueBrain> I should fix that ...
17:00:37  <valhallasw> commit limits \o/
17:01:22  *** DR_Jekyll [] has quit [Quit: - das Wiki rund um's Thema Lager und Logistik]
17:01:34  <Rubidium> valhallasw: bad idea, rather feed TrueBrain more sugar :)
17:02:22  *** Eddi|zuHause [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:02:27  <valhallasw> TrueBrain: fetch your ice-cream-with-too-much-sugar at HL400! (as soon as we start doing shows again, at least)
17:02:35  <TrueBrain> valhallasw: lol
17:02:43  <TrueBrain> have seen the 'show' one too many times, sorry
17:03:09  *** |tux_mark_5| [] has quit [Quit: KVIrc Insomnia 4.0.0, revision: , sources date: 20090115, built on: 2009/03/07 00:45:02 UTC]
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17:04:46  <valhallasw> ok
17:04:48  <valhallasw> xs4all, die plz
17:05:07  <TrueBrain> although it does remind me the time one of those tanks had a faulty release valve, and put our whole classroom full witha nice cloud of cold air
17:05:10  <TrueBrain> for about 10cm high :p
17:05:40  * Rubidium wonders what HL400 is
17:05:46  <Rubidium> whether it's the tire
17:05:50  <Rubidium> or the mixer
17:05:57  <TrueBrain> a building, floor, and room number
17:05:59  <TrueBrain> all in 5 letters
17:06:28  <TrueBrain> although I wonder what the L stands for ..
17:06:31  <TrueBrain> Lab? Level?
17:06:44  <TrueBrain> well, in fact, it even tells which wing
17:08:43  <TrueBrain> 50 translations per second
17:08:45  <TrueBrain> that is slow :s
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17:19:54  <TrueBrain> why oh why is Django so FUCKING SLOW :(
17:19:56  <TrueBrain> grr
17:21:28  <valhalla2w> TrueBrain: Huygens Lab 400 :P
17:21:32  <Rubidium> because compiling it with -O256 overflowed?
17:21:45  <valhalla2w> and because you're running it in development mode, probably
17:21:45  <TrueBrain> valhalla2w: yeah, Lab, I thought that .. still weird
17:21:57  <TrueBrain> nope ..switched to non-debug
17:22:00  <TrueBrain> still fat-ass slow
17:22:14  <valhalla2w> erm
17:22:20  <valhalla2w> how are you running the site?
17:22:25  <valhalla2w> from the python web server?
17:22:27  *** valhalla2w is now known as valhallasw
17:22:31  <TrueBrain> nope ... script-call
17:22:44  <TrueBrain> I just walk 2200 entries from a table and insert it in 3 other tables
17:23:11  <valhallasw> that should be fairly easy
17:23:32  <TrueBrain> 		for baseString in BaseString.objects.filter(subProject = subProject):
17:23:34  <TrueBrain> 			APICore.TranslationCreate(language, baseString, None, argv = argv)
17:23:35  <TrueBrain> codewise
17:45:57  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r17029 /trunk/src/lang/ (15 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
17:45:57  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:57  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: catalan - 3 changes by arnaullv
17:45:57  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: simplified_chinese - 7 changes by Gavin
17:45:57  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: danish - 31 changes by silentStatic
17:45:58  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: dutch - 6 changes by Yexo
17:45:58  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frisian - 54 changes by huddekul
17:46:45  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: alberth * r17030 /trunk/src/ (lang/english.txt waypoint_gui.cpp): -Codechange: Better descriptions for buoys.
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18:26:58  <Zuu> Oo, forgot to add /trunk to SVN-address and started to wonder why it took so long to checkout the source code :-p
18:27:46  <Eddi|zuHause> now it's getting weird... i booted like normal, and it said "pppd: unknown option 'eth0'"
18:27:51  * TrueBrain slaps Zuu
18:27:54  <TrueBrain> bandwidth eater!
18:28:27  <Zuu> At least I'm on a slow connection so it did "only" eat 180 MB.
18:46:20  <Rubidium> that's "only" 33% of the repository (if you would've downloaded the raw repository)
18:47:19  <Eddi|zuHause> lots of deleted branches?
18:47:22  <FR^2> Zuu: Hehe, happened to me some time ago at work... I wondered, why it already had  checked out about 650mbytes, although the project had around 9mbytes... And a few weeks later, a colleague stumpled upon the same mistake *g*
18:48:22  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: I'm more thinging in the area of language updates
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18:51:48  <xmakina> quick question - how does an AI get the subsidy multiplier?
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18:52:37  <Rubidium> I think the only way is by querying the appropriate setting (at least with the existing API)
18:53:35  <xmakina> you wouldn't happen to know what that setting is? the API documentation just says it's looking for char
18:55:39  <TrueBrain> Yexo: concratz on getting the URL right ;)
18:56:08  <Yexo> TrueBrain: every other file uses that naming scheme. Besides, I had just run doxygen locally :)
18:56:08  <Rubidium> not by heart, I'm guessting something like difficulty.subsidy_multiplier
18:56:28  <TrueBrain> Yexo: ;) Still ...
18:56:35  <xmakina> no worries - found it - list_settings
18:57:04  <xmakina> of course that's a bloody long list ¬_¬
18:57:21  <xmakina> also - spot on Rubidium
18:57:23  <xmakina> :)
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18:58:05  <Rubidium> xmakina: you can 'filter' the list (a bit) if you guess the begin of the setting name correctly
18:58:19  <Rubidium> e.g. list_settings diff
18:58:36  <xmakina> cool - i'll try and remember that if i need to pull any other game settings :)
18:59:35  <Rubidium> note that the value of the setting isn't the multiplier
19:00:06  <xmakina> so it isn't
19:00:38  <Rubidium> but a sort of index into a 'multiplier' lookup table
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19:01:46  <xmakina> any way to get the exact multiplier value? it's no real concern as i don't think many folks are going to be changing that index anytime soon
19:01:55  <xmakina> it'd just be nice to have the safety there if/when needed
19:02:41  <Rubidium> xmakina: no, it's hardcoded into the source and not provided in the API
19:03:40  <Rubidium> you could suggest an API call to get the subsidy multiplier in
19:03:41  <xmakina> i'll take my chances then that "1" will always equal x2 then :)
19:05:25  * xmakina suggests
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19:11:21  <Dragoon_Jett> In the road types, what is better roads
19:11:28  <TrueBrain> hard road
19:11:39  <xmakina> they go a bit further before turning
19:11:39  <TrueBrain> sand road tends to be a bit hard to drive on pas 100 kmph
19:11:50  <xmakina> and there's usually more spacing between parallel roads
19:12:00  <xmakina> TrueBrain: ¬_¬
19:13:19  <Dragoon_Jett> Is there any console commands that you can only use in the scenario builder or some tools made to help in the scenario builder
19:13:25  <Dragoon_Jett> Like filters for industrys and the like
19:13:36  <planetmaker> nope
19:13:45  <planetmaker> not that I know of
19:13:53  <xmakina> i don't understand why you'd need anything like that...
19:13:59  <Dragoon_Jett> What about editing starting money
19:14:02  <xmakina> no
19:14:05  <Dragoon_Jett> and loan caps/mins
19:14:07  <xmakina> no
19:14:23  <xmakina> starting money is fixed, loan caps are in the difficulty setting
19:14:48  <xmakina> you can provide the user with some ready made roads if you want to lower start up costs which is essentially upping starting money
19:15:04  <xmakina> but that's about the best you can hope for
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19:16:28  <Dragoon_Jett> Everything is coded in C++ right
19:16:35  <TrueBrain> no
19:16:42  <TrueBrain> we also have bash, awk, asm, ..
19:17:05  <Dragoon_Jett> Could you code starting money and the like in newgrf
19:17:28  <TrueBrain> no
19:17:45  <TrueBrain> [21:14] <xmakina> starting money is fixed, loan caps are in the difficulty setting
19:18:31  <Dragoon_Jett> Yes, so I assumed it was only fixed to clients and the like but if you coded changes into the game then again I ASSUMED you could change it
19:19:02  <TrueBrain> not via newgrfs
19:19:26  <xmakina> in ottd Scenario = Map
19:19:27  <xmakina> that's all
19:20:04  <xmakina> i appreciate in most games Scenario = Special starting, goal, other alteration but that's not the case with OTTD
19:21:07  <Rubidium> in OpenTTD you can also have a 'special' starting, if by that you mean: already existing company infrastructure, a big depot or so
19:21:58  *** krushia [] has joined #openttd
19:22:04  <xmakina> as in renaming a savegame into a scenario?
19:22:18  <TrueBrain> xmakina: OpenTTD doens't even have 'goals'
19:22:54  <xmakina> I know - I was pointing out that most games use the word scenario to indicate something unusual
19:23:11  <xmakina> special goals being one of the usual changes
19:23:26  <TrueBrain> would be nice if the game had goals though ..
19:23:28  <TrueBrain> clear goals, that is
19:23:56  <xmakina> nah - i like being able to make my own
19:24:06  <xmakina> my usual is "Connect every town"
19:24:15  <TrueBrain> I never managed to reach that goal :p
19:24:27  <xmakina> lol - same. getting very close on a 256x256 map though
19:24:45  <OwenS> TrueBrain: 64x64 map and it should be easy :p
19:24:53  <xmakina> just need to construct the north-western hub and grab all the towns that side of the map and i'll be done
19:24:55  <TrueBrain> you can't connect 1 town :)
19:25:06  <OwenS> Yes you can! You connect it to... itself?
19:25:07  <xmakina> two bus stations :P
19:25:20  <TrueBrain> that is not "connect every town"
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19:25:37  <xmakina> well if there is only 1 town then they're all connected
19:25:55  <xmakina> also: industries can be a valid alternative if there's a lack of towns
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19:26:14  <TrueBrain> the last game I played, I had industries disabled :p
19:26:29  <xmakina> if it only had 1 town i imagine you got very bored very quickly ¬_¬
19:26:34  <OwenS> "The mileage (in kilometres) from..." Is it just me who thinks there is something wrong with that phrasing? :P
19:26:46  <TrueBrain> OwenS: depends on the IQ of the reader
19:26:47  <xmakina> there might be...
19:26:56  <Baffage> heyguys, i'm new to this game, and i just noticed that my competitor companies make money off of "New vehicles", how is that possible?
19:27:29  <TrueBrain> sell vehicles?
19:27:36  <Rubidium> by selling more vehicles that they buy
19:27:44  <Rubidium> s/that/than/
19:28:00  <OwenS> Rubidium: So they're operating -2 busses? :P
19:28:25  <Rubidium> relatively since jan 1, yes
19:28:50  <Baffage> ah, thanks Rubidium
19:28:58  <xmakina> i buy a bus in year 1
19:28:58  <xmakina> i sell it in year 2
19:28:58  <xmakina> ???
19:28:58  <xmakina> profit
19:29:11  <TrueBrain> and you thank him :(
19:29:52  <Baffage> lolol, thanks to you too :]
19:30:00  <TrueBrain> :) :) :)
19:30:08  * xmakina /wrists
19:30:16  <Rubidium> TrueBrain: I still have the cookie I offered you yesterday ;)
19:30:17  <OwenS> TrueBrain: Rubidium more likely to explode on you. Just be glad it wasn't Francium ;-)
19:30:28  <xmakina> it's okay :'( i'm used to being completely overlooked :'(
19:30:28  <TrueBrain> Rubidium: now you tell me!
19:30:45  * TrueBrain hugs xmakina
19:30:51  <TrueBrain> hmm .. now I feel dirty
19:30:53  * TrueBrain goes to take a shower
19:30:57  <xmakina> that'll be my wrist blood
19:30:58  <xmakina> :S
19:31:16  * OwenS calls social services
19:31:29  <Baffage> awright, prepare for another question, is it advantageous to full load a passenger train at the station?
19:31:42  <TrueBrain> depends
19:32:00  <xmakina> very depends
19:32:09  <Rubidium> Welcome to the social services, if you've got suicide problems please hang on while we find someone for you to talk to
19:32:14  <xmakina> if the town makes 3 passengers a month it isn't worth it at all
19:32:29  <OwenS> I'll say that in #ottdc we don't, because it generally decreases traffic. Of course, what is applicable to us is not always applicable to everyone else :p
19:32:56  <TrueBrain> for planes I always do full load
19:32:58  <TrueBrain> for trains never
19:33:06  <TrueBrain> I doubt if matters on the big scale :p
19:33:14  <Baffage> ah, allright
19:33:15  <xmakina> buses I do at small towns so they get a good station rating and so grow quicker
19:33:35  <TrueBrain> low pax waiting => high station rating
19:33:45  <TrueBrain> fast delivery => more money
19:33:52  <TrueBrain> high station rating => more pax
19:33:58  <Baffage> i'll just stick with full loading coal and stuff like that then
19:34:19  <xmakina> Baffage: full load if you the train won't be coming back with a full load
19:34:27  <xmakina> that's normally a safe rule
19:34:35  <xmakina> *you know
19:35:26  <Baffage> allright
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19:36:48  <TrueBrain> OFTC: GIVE ME DORPSGEK BACK!
19:36:50  <TrueBrain> ass
19:36:53  <OwenS> OFTCs been really splitty lately
19:37:07  <TrueBrain> LOL! Overreacting OwenS? :)
19:37:30  <TrueBrain> the fact they hadn't any for months doesn't mean 3 in a month is a lot :p
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19:38:01  * TrueBrain hugs DorpsGek
19:38:02  <TrueBrain> glad you are back
19:40:09  <planetmaker> wow...
19:45:44  <Rubidium> planetmaker: you are aware that openttd's compile farm builds nforenum too?
19:46:02  * frosch123 just wanted to ask the same
19:48:49  <Rubidium> and our download page looks much nicer: ;)
19:50:07  <Rubidium> though it will only builds an hour after TTDP gets build, which is somewhere middle in 'your' night
19:50:30  * DaleStan just updated his signature.
19:52:02  <Rubidium> DaleStan: you've noticed that I've made a diff for grfcodec to support the compile farm?
19:52:26  <DaleStan> I have..
19:52:39  <DaleStan> Later today, I hope.
19:53:07  <Rubidium> that's all fine, just wanted to know it didn't go unnoticed
19:53:21  <Rubidium> it'll just occasionally look at ;)
19:56:13  <Ammler> m?h, now, I have another error in opengfx :-(
19:56:24  <Ammler> strange
19:59:18  <TrueBrain> delete it
19:59:20  <TrueBrain> fixes all problems
20:12:13  * Zuu groans a bit on the filtering code. Filtering out content downloads that can be upgraded is quite easy, but to get it done nice and also when the tag/name string is zero-size is another story.
20:14:46  <Zuu> Would someone wants to be able to filter the list of possible upgrades using a filter string ever?
20:15:06  <Zuu> Dumb question - sure someone ever will do it. But is it important?
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20:15:34  <TrueBrain> woesh
20:16:40  <frosch123> Zuu: add a filter to the newgrf-gui, which filters on name, description, filename and grfid :)
20:21:09  <frosch123> (well actually the add-newgrf-dialog)
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20:25:25  <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: deleting opengfx did not solve any of my problems :(
20:25:39  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: no, you have to delete your problem
20:25:42  <TrueBrain> that always works
20:25:47  <TrueBrain> in your case, delete your computer
20:28:04  <planetmaker> rm -rf /dev/Eddi/computer ? ;-)
20:29:00  <planetmaker> Rubidium: I wasn't aware that the CF now does build it automatically
20:29:25  <planetmaker> If that's so, I can spare myself the hassle, at least the windows one. :-) Good to know. Thx
20:29:40  *** Chruker [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20:30:23  <frosch123>  /sbin/suicide or shutdown --permanent NOW might also work
20:30:26  <planetmaker> DaleStan: fixes... I added another makefile fix for nforenum. "release" doesn't work on MinGW environments
20:30:30  <Zuu> frosch123, What does newgrf-gui has to do with content download? :-)
20:30:35  <planetmaker> at least not for me...
20:30:50  <frosch123> Zuu: you were talking about filtering, weren't you?
20:31:05  <Zuu> Yep
20:31:31  <frosch123> and I need filtering for the add-newgrf dialog :)
20:31:34  <Zuu> But not of grf-window.
20:32:20  <planetmaker> Rubidium: what's the look-up frequency of CF concerning nforenum / grfcodec?
20:32:39  <Rubidium> planetmaker: it does work if you override NFORENUM in Makefile.local
20:32:41  <planetmaker> (I mean: how often does it check for source updates, which it then compiles)?
20:32:43  <Rubidium> planetmaker: daily
20:33:00  <planetmaker> Rubidium: sure, then it works. But... that doesn't sound sensible IMO
20:33:14  <Rubidium> resp. 1 and 2 hours after the TTDP compile run
20:33:14  <planetmaker> ^ changing .local to make it
20:33:22  <planetmaker> ah, nice :-)
20:33:40  <Zuu> frosch123, Or was it not an advice, but more a wish from your side ;)
20:33:52  <Rubidium> but I have to agree, for 'simple' users mingw support out of the box is better
20:33:57  <DaleStan> You should see my Makefile.local for TTDPatch.
20:33:59  <frosch123> yes, yes, yes, feature request ! :)
20:34:12  <planetmaker> Well. I added a small diff which works for me :-)
20:34:26  <planetmaker> and should - I hope - work for other MinGW users, too
20:34:52  <DaleStan> The diff between .local and .local.sample is larger than .local.sample
20:35:03  <planetmaker> hehe :-)
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20:35:57  <Zuu> frosch123: What I had in mind:
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20:36:48  <planetmaker> well. that big difference in size is not the case here, but surely it has some elements, too :-)
20:37:12  <frosch123> I hate automatic upgrades :)
20:37:15  <planetmaker> especially a distinction and detection whether make is running on mac or on win - and setting variables accordingly :-)
20:37:46  <OsteHovel> forced automatic upgrades suck
20:37:57  <OsteHovel> optinal automatic upgrade i feel is fine
20:39:35  <Rubidium> still, lots of work for a fairly hidden 'feature' that is either annoying as it pops up at the EXACT moment you want to click on some button or always shows on startup (if enabled)
20:39:55  <DaleStan> ... That's better. When TSVN fails to svn add new files, I get a little disturbed.
20:40:14  <Zuu> frosch123, That is why the idea is that it won't do it without you confirming.
20:40:14  <Rubidium> whereas the manual way is probably 2 clicks more
20:41:32  <planetmaker> Generally it's nice to have the option to automatically update the stuff you want.
20:41:43  <frosch123> well, I rather meant: i dislike the popup: "do you wanna upgrade?"
20:41:46  <planetmaker> But only if it's an option :-)
20:41:50  <Rubidium> planetmaker: but at what cost?
20:41:58  <Zuu> I find it quite convinient to not have to myself poll for updates.
20:41:59  <Alberth> I am wondering what the use is. Does the game automagically pick newer versions?
20:42:21  <Rubidium> because either it has to run in the background, which OpenTTD doesn't quite like
20:42:38  <Rubidium> or it 'locks' starting OpenTTD
20:43:03  <Rubidium> or it always spawns a window with 'checking for updates' or so
20:43:08  <planetmaker> hm... wouldn't it be indeed a candidate for a separate thread, the automatic upgrade download?
20:43:09  <frosch123> hmm, I guess queriing bananas takes about the same time as scanning the hd for newgrfs :)
20:43:15  <frosch123> at least on my side :p
20:43:18  <Alberth> (ie not only do you need to load updates from the Internet, it also needs to use them)
20:43:44  <Baffage> I'm trying to make a bus route, but when I click the bus station nothing happens, what might be wrong? It's my station and the game is not paused. I can send it to any other station, but not this one
20:43:47  <Rubidium> planetmaker: and then during loading a game it's finished and rescans for NewGRFs?
20:44:10  <Alberth> Baffage: what do you expect to happen?
20:44:11  <planetmaker> Rubidium: no. A game has anyway its fixed newgrfs.
20:44:30  <planetmaker> Baffage: it's a truck stop?
20:44:32  <Zuu> But could work for AIs
20:44:42  <Baffage> ah, it was a lorry and not a bus station :] i expected the station to appear on the route list
20:45:10  <planetmaker> hehe :-) Happened to me, too. Wondering why it cannot be added.
20:45:39  <Alberth> enough today, bye all
20:45:45  <planetmaker> good night, Alberth
20:45:51  <Zuu> Good night Alberth
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20:46:41  <Rubidium> planetmaker: but all NewGRF structs are trashed and rebuild. Reading trashed (read freed) structs is NOT good
20:46:54  <planetmaker> eh?
20:47:10  <Zuu> Without thinking of the possibility of threading, my first though was to make the checking blocking.
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20:47:26  <planetmaker> where did I say to use the new ones in a loaded game?
20:47:42  <Rubidium> Zuu: that'd make, in of slow name resolution block for over a minute
20:47:44  <planetmaker> and where do I want to trash anything?
20:48:09  <Rubidium> planetmaker: you want to download, thus you want to rescan. The rescan trashes the grf lists
20:48:50  <planetmaker> Rubidium: you said "loading game". Loading a game means, no need to re-scan anything as you know your MD5 and GRFID
20:49:23  <Rubidium> planetmaker: I said that the download finishes DURING loading
20:49:46  <planetmaker> yes. But why does that then require a re-scan?
20:50:11  <Rubidium> because otherwise you won't see the newly downloaded stuff until you've quit OpenTTD
20:50:20  <Rubidium> which makes the automatic download quite pathetic
20:50:33  <planetmaker> a re-scan is only necessary, if you open the newgrf selection window
20:50:48  <planetmaker> otherwise a user doesn't need newgrfs anyway
20:50:57  <planetmaker> *a new list of
20:51:35  <Rubidium> and what if a user intends to join a server?
20:51:53  <Rubidium> or if the user downloaded someone's savegame and wants to load it?
20:51:55  <planetmaker> then he has that option anyway
20:52:32  <Rubidium> and because it didn't rescan, you have to redownload which probably won't work quite well (the overwriting an existing file)
20:52:37  <planetmaker> the other-person-savegame is IMO the only case where the user can indeed profit from newgrfs downloaded.
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20:53:32  <Rubidium> the 'join server' too
20:53:45  <planetmaker> a player cannot join unless he has all newgrf
20:53:49  <planetmaker> so it's not a problem
20:54:10  <Rubidium> but the user HAS the NewGRF but OpenTTD just DOES NOT KNOW ABOUT IT
20:54:35  <planetmaker> yes, he might need to wait till download is finished. But he had to do that anyway. And a re-scan when there's no game yet loaded, doesn't hurt, does it?
20:54:36  <Rubidium> thus causing a duplicate download, causing overwriting of existing files which is totally untested
20:55:03  <planetmaker> whatever.
20:55:05  <Rubidium> planetmaker: but when is there a game loaded and when not?
20:55:31  <Rubidium> because when it starts rescanning that might not be the case, but during the rescanning a game may be loaded
20:55:46  <planetmaker> Rubidium: case internet server: you try to join, it fails due to missing newgrf. No game loaded. Ok, you hit rescan, maybe it works now, that the download is finished
20:55:50  <planetmaker> No harm
20:56:06  <TrueBrain> or you join the thread on such actions? :)
20:56:14  <Rubidium> planetmaker: but the user doesn't know that it has downloaded it, thus he does not press rescan
20:56:15  <planetmaker> case your own game: it may download whenever. No re-scan needed. You have your newgrf
20:56:27  <Rubidium> or can you remember 30 'upgrades'?
20:56:34  <planetmaker> Rubidium: then OpenTTD might do, when it is done downloading
20:56:37  <TrueBrain> it would at least be useful if OpenTTD informs you if there are updates ;)
20:56:53  <planetmaker> because there is nothing loaded a re-scan is safe
20:56:59  <planetmaker> anytime
20:57:10  <planetmaker> the only interesting thing is a savegame where you don't have all newgrf.
20:57:17  <planetmaker> well. I guess it will load as now, too.
20:57:32  <planetmaker> with or without errors. No re-scan necessary as it's unsave
20:57:38  <Rubidium> planetmaker: NOT if it is run in the background and the user presses the 'load game' button moments after it starts rescanning
20:57:53  <TrueBrain> Rubidium: semaphores?
20:58:35  <planetmaker> :-)
20:58:41  <Rubidium> TrueBrain: already had enough trouble with those for NoAI
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20:59:27  <TrueBrain> Rubidium: I believe it was not the problem of NoAI. That said, other solution is to join the thread
20:59:55  <Rubidium> anyhow, it's unlikely that you can write it blocking as the connecting to the content server is non-blocking
21:00:56  <Zuu> You can spawn a window that refuses to be closed untill the checking is done, and thus even if OpenTTD itself is not blocking you block the users.
21:01:39  <TrueBrain> Zuu: clever idea; sadly enough there is always the console :p
21:01:55  <Zuu> block that one too :-p
21:02:14  <Rubidium> not to mention blocking OpenTTD for 1+ minute in case you network is flaky sucks
21:02:14  <TrueBrain> put a statusbar in the top of the screen, and block vital buttons like newgame and loadgame :p
21:02:24  <DPyro> but then users will get annoyed
21:02:37  <planetmaker> :-P
21:02:58  <DPyro> can't you just block the multiplayer buttons?
21:03:26  <planetmaker> DPyro: the point was that it's dangerous also in SP situations. Especially the last one Rubi mentioned
21:04:08  <TrueBrain> why does my X consume 150 MiB of RAM :s
21:04:38  <Zuu> But then, isn't it up to users if they wants to have the convinience of not having to poll manually or having quick OpenTTD startups?
21:04:39  <planetmaker> Hm... what about that: don't update the newgrf list. Just send a chat message that it has been updated.
21:05:36  <planetmaker> anyway... time for bed... Only slept like 8 hours combined the last two nights.
21:05:41  <planetmaker> good night folks
21:05:42  <TrueBrain> Apple Style: put a (N) after Content Service when there is an update! :)
21:05:46  <TrueBrain> good night planetmaker!! :)
21:05:49  <TrueBrain> sleep well ;)
21:05:54  <Zuu> good night planetmaker
21:06:20  <planetmaker> thanks :-)
21:06:22  <TrueBrain> Django is killing me!! Even without saving it takes ages to walk over 20k records .....
21:06:31  <TrueBrain> I really need to figure out what I am doing wrong, or what Django is doing wrong ..
21:07:09  <Zuu> TrueBrain, Could be an option, to just inform that there are updates, but then let the users do the work themself.
21:07:32  <TrueBrain> Zuu: I personally hate it when something downloads updates automaticly, like firefox does on windows
21:07:42  <TrueBrain> I like Apple for telling me there is an update, and allowing me to download it when I want it
21:08:00  *** Azrael- [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:08:01  <TrueBrain> (I believe RedHat does the same, for example :0
21:08:03  <Zuu> My original idea was never to upgrade automatically, but inform and allow users to upgrade by clicking on a button.
21:08:15  <TrueBrain> don't make nag-screens
21:08:18  <TrueBrain> they are .. nagging :p
21:08:39  <TrueBrain> I hate CloneCD for every time telling me there is a new version
21:08:42  <TrueBrain> I mean .. fuck off ..
21:09:18  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... is it wise to split the power load over two PSUs?
21:09:19  <Zuu> And the main motivation was that people should get the last AIs etc. now that they can esier update AIs in running games. :-)
21:09:24  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: no
21:09:46  <Eddi|zuHause> i mean like put the HDDs on another PSU
21:09:58  <TrueBrain> problem is that modern PSU are ATX
21:10:05  <TrueBrain> the motherboards control their powerstate
21:10:22  <TrueBrain> (the reason your HDs are not constant powered on)
21:10:34  <TrueBrain> so you will need to bypass that :p
21:10:43  <OwenS> Other thing is possibility of ground loops
21:10:44  <Eddi|zuHause> i have an older computer with a (suspected) dead PSU
21:10:47  <OwenS> Those can really ruin your day :p
21:10:56  <Eddi|zuHause> it powers up, runs the fans, but it doesn't boot
21:11:08  <TrueBrain> euh .. if the PSU is dead, it doesn't powerup :p
21:11:17  <Eddi|zuHause> bah
21:11:20  <TrueBrain> if it doesn't boot mostly your memory is fried, or one of the two bridges
21:11:20  <Eddi|zuHause> i meant CPU
21:11:24  <OwenS> Or it powers up wildly out of specification and kills everything
21:11:35  <Eddi|zuHause> too many abbreviations
21:11:52  <TrueBrain> modern computers have POST to indicate what is wrong exactly :p
21:12:02  <TrueBrain> although I believe that is outdated too :p
21:12:05  <OwenS> PC Speaker connected?
21:12:11  <OwenS> :p
21:12:13  <Eddi|zuHause> it doesn't display anything, and doesn't make "beep"
21:12:28  <OwenS> Check the PC speaker is correctly connected.
21:12:35  <Eddi|zuHause> the HDD-access-diode is constantly on
21:12:55  <OwenS> Eddi|zuHause: Does it have SATA or just PATA hard disks?
21:12:57  <TrueBrain> lol, your IDE cable is in backwards :p
21:13:01  <Eddi|zuHause> as far as i remember, it used to beep, but i'll check
21:13:18  <Eddi|zuHause> there are no HDDs in there
21:13:23  <OwenS> Aah
21:13:39  <TrueBrain> I loved IDE for that :) If your cable was backwards, it just kept the light on :p
21:14:06  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: HDD led is the most untrustworthy light of a computer
21:14:08  <OwenS> Yeah. Doesn't happen these days, even with PATA disks, because the controller controls the light now, rather than it being connected to one oft he bus lines :p
21:14:30  <OwenS> TrueBrain: Not true. Keyboard lights are less trustworthy ;-)
21:14:32  <Eddi|zuHause> it's a pentium-III 800 afair
21:14:32  <TrueBrain> for example, on my computer it only reacts on SATA1 :(
21:14:56  <Eddi|zuHause> my current computer doesn't even have one
21:14:57  <OwenS> I wouldn't know since my HDs are RAIDes... =/
21:15:00  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: either way, connecting 2 PSUs to one motherboard is asking for troubles :)
21:15:10  <OwenS> My server has one plus one on each of the drive enclosures
21:15:14  <TrueBrain> I am happy our servers have hotswap bays
21:15:19  <TrueBrain> they come with their own activity light :)
21:15:41  <Eddi|zuHause> well, connecting two transformators to a model railway works ;)
21:15:42  <OwenS> I have hotswap bays. Unfortonately Intel convined to not put hotswap controllers on their ITX motherboards....
21:15:48  <Eddi|zuHause> just make sure they have a common ground
21:15:51  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: yeah, but they don't interact ;)
21:15:57  <OwenS> Eddi|zuHause: Thats a transformer. Not a switch mode power supply
21:16:02  <TrueBrain> OwenS: SATA is always hotswap ;)
21:16:10  <OwenS> TrueBrain: Needs controller support
21:16:15  <TrueBrain> OwenS: not in my book :p
21:16:21  <TrueBrain> we have servers which claim not to have that support
21:16:24  <TrueBrain> but believe me .. it works :p
21:16:34  <TrueBrain> (we just reset the SATA driver on-the-fly :p)
21:16:34  <OwenS> The ICH7 on ITX motherboards can't be taken out of legacy IDE mode so the OS never detects the drive prescence/removal
21:17:10  <TrueBrain> no problem too small to fake a reboot :p
21:17:21  <OwenS> And... um... the OS reacts unkindly to loss of it's swap device. And root device :p
21:17:30  <TrueBrain> why swap device?
21:17:40  <TrueBrain> I can't remember the last time I created a swap
21:17:51  <TrueBrain> when you machines run with 8 GB of RAM, swap becomes ... well ... unneeded :p
21:18:14  <TrueBrain> and the OS is loaded completley in the memory (just 80 MB :p)
21:18:14  <Eddi|zuHause> once upon a time i read that swap is recommended to be 3 times the ram
21:18:23  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: that is VERY old :p
21:18:33  <TrueBrain> twice, with a max of 1GB, is the general advise at the moment I believe :)
21:18:40  <Eddi|zuHause> i think it was in the win 3.1 manual or something :p
21:18:56  <OwenS> I have 1GB in my server and 2GB swap on my desktop (Both 2GB RAM)
21:19:04  <Eddi|zuHause> or win 95?
21:19:12  <OwenS> (2GB I blame on me not paying enough attention to Anaconda :P )
21:19:18  <TrueBrain> the only downside of no swap, is that the OOMkiller can give you a hard time
21:19:21  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't remember having a win95 manual
21:19:38  <OwenS> TrueBrain: Thats the reason I leave swap in. So everything doesn't get OOMKilled when I do a complex compile :p
21:19:45  <TrueBrain> 10 minutes for 20,000 strings ... this is unacceptable ...
21:20:06  <TrueBrain> OwenS: swap or no swap, I get computers killed with the calculations I run :p
21:20:06  <OwenS> What you working with?
21:20:11  <TrueBrain> requesting 16 GB of RAM is no good :p
21:20:17  <TrueBrain> Django .. and it is giving me a hard time ..
21:20:28  <OwenS> Tried replacing the ORM with SqlAlchemy?
21:20:41  <TrueBrain> who with what?
21:21:05  <OwenS> Django's DB layer with SqlAlchemy... if thats the cause of the slowness (I gathered it was from earlier... but wasn't paying enough attention at the time to be sure :P )
21:21:39  <TrueBrain> I wouldn't know what Django uses currently
21:22:04  <OwenS> Custom DB layer. But SqlAlchemy is fast and optimizes better than me (Though I will freely admit I'm no DB admin :P )
21:22:36  *** frosch123 [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
21:22:38  <TrueBrain> I guess the only question I should ask is: how to install?
21:22:51  <OwenS> easy_install sqlalchemy
21:23:02  <Sacro> hmmm
21:23:02  <TrueBrain> okay, I asked it wrong:
21:23:07  <TrueBrain> hwo to install it with django?
21:23:19  <OwenS> I think that someone's written a binding somewhere
21:25:51  <OwenS> I've never used it with Django, but on it's own it's always been pleasent to use
21:26:12  <TrueBrain> I use Django mostly for its simpleness in database layering
21:28:32  <TrueBrain> so I am sure it is nice and all .. but that would make using Django kind of obsolete :p
21:28:45  <TrueBrain> well .. maybe I should stop using Django in the first place, and write a standalone Python application
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21:39:54  <TrueBrain> maybe I do make too many selects .. hmm ..
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21:45:00  <Ammler> /!!Warning (60): Expected 145 (0x91) sprites for this type. <-- I get this warning for the GUI
21:46:11  <Ammler> <-- does have 0x96 too.
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21:50:37  <TrueBrain> the difference between having 1 select statement active, is 100% more time needed to do what it does ...
21:50:40  <TrueBrain> (from 11s to 21s)
21:50:41  <Nite_Owl> Hello all
21:56:09  <TrueBrain> adding a few INDEXes increased it to 14s ..
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21:58:35  <OwenS> OK. Something odd there
21:58:48  <OwenS> Tried running it inside a transaction if you're not?
21:58:58  <TrueBrain> how would that ever increase speed? :)
21:59:17  <TrueBrain> and I found out I did a lot of searches on a 'key' field, but it wasn't an index, so that explains the increase in speed ;)
21:59:19  <OwenS> Because database engines are random like that
21:59:23  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm fairly certain the PC speaker is connected to the computer, but not even when i take out the RAM it makes a beep
21:59:39  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: then it is toast already :)
21:59:41  <TrueBrain> remove the CPU
21:59:42  <Eddi|zuHause> it's amazingly much ram
21:59:43  <OwenS> "Increased it to 14s" made me think it made it take longer :p
21:59:43  <TrueBrain> see what it does ;)
21:59:50  <TrueBrain> OwenS: owh, no
21:59:55  <TrueBrain> decreased, I should have used
21:59:59  <TrueBrain> 11s without select, 14s with select
22:00:10  <Eddi|zuHause> it's 2 bars that say "256-133" and one that says "256-100"
22:00:19  <TrueBrain> DRAM!
22:00:22  <OwenS> SDRAM :p
22:00:28  <OwenS> SDR SDRAM though
22:00:39  <TrueBrain> fucking worthless :p
22:00:45  <TrueBrain> if you give money, people won't buy it :)
22:00:56  <OwenS> I'd take it if you gave me money and paid the postage :P
22:00:57  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, i thought that :p
22:01:13  <TrueBrain> OwenS: you can't 'buy' something if you get money for it :p
22:01:20  <Eddi|zuHause> i can't figure out how to get off the CPU
22:01:36  <TrueBrain> big black box?
22:01:42  <TrueBrain> rectangle?
22:01:43  <Rubidium> I will give you the cookie I promised TrueBrain if you personally come to acquire the cookie
22:02:03  <Rubidium> (and bring the memory)
22:02:03  <Eddi|zuHause> feeling alone? :p
22:02:09  <OwenS> I think my most fun PC work was replacing the CMOS battery on a Compaq LTE386/20s :P
22:02:29  <TrueBrain> 6 minutes in, did 10k records ...
22:02:33  <TrueBrain> still too slow to talk about :s
22:02:38  <OwenS> ...the battery is probably worth more than the laptop :P
22:02:53  <TrueBrain> 		for translation in OpenTTD_Translation.objects.filter(translation__language = language):
22:02:54  <TrueBrain> 			translation.gender = None
22:02:56  <TrueBrain>
22:02:59  <TrueBrain> I think I should find a way to do that slightly more efficient
22:03:05  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: no, mailing/FEDEXing the cookie will cause that you won't get a cookie but a big mess
22:03:09  <OwenS> 2MB Asynchronous DRAM; 386SX processor at 20Mhz; 144MB Conor Peripherals HD
22:03:38  <OwenS> ...And a BIOS setup program on a 720kb floppy
22:04:04  *** stuffcorpse [~rick@] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
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22:04:30  <OwenS> It does have the most graphical BIOS I've seen though :O
22:04:51  <Eddi|zuHause> no really, how do you take out a P-III CPU?
22:04:58  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: a black box? Rectangle?
22:05:00  <Sacro> Eddi|zuHause: not ZIF?
22:05:04  <OwenS> Slot or socket?
22:05:12  <Eddi|zuHause> slot
22:05:14  <Sacro> surely you just lower the lever and it rises out
22:05:19  <Sacro> hmm, slots, dunno
22:05:37  <TrueBrain> wasn't it just a matter of hard pulling?
22:05:50  <OwenS> May have to unlock the heatsink first?
22:06:15  <TrueBrain> <- if it is like that
22:06:21  <TrueBrain> unlock the two thingies on the side
22:06:25  <TrueBrain> and just pull .. hard
22:06:39  <TrueBrain> as in that case the heatsink is integrated in the CPU ... stupid fucking annoying things
22:06:53  <Nite_Owl> there is a specialized tweezer like tool for some older chips
22:07:00  <TrueBrain> <- if you feel that you don't have an AMD
22:07:27  *** benben [] has joined #openttd
22:07:30  <OwenS> TrueBrain: He said PIII :p
22:07:35  <Rubidium> Sacro: you're slow!
22:07:47  <benben> hi. is there a way to get those bot players remove roads they don't nead anymore?
22:07:49  <benben> *nee
22:07:50  <benben> d
22:07:52  <TrueBrain> 1 minute to import one language ..... :s
22:08:13  <TrueBrain> 60 seconds for 2000 strings .. 6 for 200 .. 30 per second ..
22:08:24  <OwenS> What database?
22:08:29  <worldemar> benben: buy them when you can do it and remove by yourself)
22:08:33  <TrueBrain> MySQL
22:08:41  <Zuu> benben: you can edit them as they are GPL2 all of them. But that is probably not the answer you are seeking for :-)
22:09:09  <OwenS> TrueBrain: Is it wrapped in a transaction? With some database engines transactions have masisve speedups...
22:09:19  <TrueBrain> OwenS: then I need to read how transactions work via django
22:09:22  <Sacro> Rubidium: oh?
22:09:26  <TrueBrain> (and I don't believe you :p)
22:09:33  <OwenS> Though I think it wraps the page in one =/
22:09:52  <Zuu> benben: any specific AI you are having in mind?
22:09:54  <Rubidium> Sacro: archlinux + openttd 0.7.2?
22:10:01  <Sacro> Rubidium: hm?
22:10:39  <Nite_Owl>
22:10:51  <benben> Zuu: no idea, just the default one ;)
22:10:51  <Sacro> flagged
22:10:53  <Sacro> oh hm
22:10:57  <Sacro> they are both marked as Orphan
22:11:01  <Sacro> so not sure who'll do it
22:11:12  <Yexo> benben: if you're using 0.7 or later, there is no default AI anymore
22:11:17  <Zuu> benben: there is no default AI, if you refer to 0.7 or later.
22:11:19  <benben> i use .6
22:11:40  <TrueBrain> OwenS: MyISAM doesn't support transactions
22:11:44  <benben> worldemar: when am i able to do this? the button is greyed out
22:12:07  <Yexo> 5 (or 6?) years after the start of the company, and only if the settings allow it
22:12:27  <Zuu> benben: then you are a bit out on your own as in 0.7 and forward the old AI have been replaced with an API for user made AIs.
22:12:38  <Nite_Owl>  if you want to get very specific
22:12:39  <OwenS> TrueBrain: Tried changing the table engine to InnoDB?
22:12:42  <Rubidium> Sacro: <- any idea why the license is unknown?
22:12:50  <TrueBrain> OwenS: you have any idea how much slower that will be?
22:12:52  <TrueBrain> but sure, I can do that for you
22:13:01  <OwenS> No. I'm no DB expert :p
22:13:03  <Yexo> any reason you're still using 0.6?
22:13:13  <Sacro> errm
22:14:12  <Sacro> Rubidium: licence field written wrong perhaps
22:14:29  <benben> Zuu: Yexo worldemar: found the setting, bought the company, thanks :)
22:15:13  <worldemar> of course that may cost a lot of money... if you wanted to buy many bots
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22:15:31  <OwenS> TrueBrain: InnoDB apparently multithreads better; and it almost always inserts faster
22:15:32  <worldemar> note, you also "buy" their borrows
22:15:38  <Sacro> Rubidium: i could take over the package btu I don't have community write access :(
22:15:59  <Sacro> hm, that one says vegai
22:16:00  <TrueBrain> OwenS: if now I knew how to make those tables InnoDB without doing them one by one :p
22:16:01  <Sacro> how strange
22:16:14  <Rubidium> I don't care; you've been bloating about archlinux every now and then ;)
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22:17:40  <Sacro> Rubidium: heh
22:17:42  <Sacro> i do love arch
22:19:26  <TrueBrain> OwenS: okay, now Django keeps on telling me the code isn't under transaction management .. grr
22:19:32  <OwenS> O_o
22:19:59  <Eddi|zuHause> nope, i can't figure out how this works...
22:20:14  <DaleStan> Rubidium: The grfcodec diff is no good. MSVC compiles work fine, but your values for and usages of BOOST_WARN and BOOST_ERROR came from nforenum, not grfcodec. (GRFCodec can be built without boost.)
22:20:14  <DaleStan> Also, it breaks Cygwin compilation, for reasons I can only partly explain. (I can make it compile again, but then it doesn't link.)
22:21:31  <TrueBrain> OwenS: okay, running ..
22:21:53  <TrueBrain> it looks very slow ...
22:22:34  *** tdev [] has quit [Quit: free open source vehicle simulator:]
22:23:11  <OwenS> OK; perhaps you should discard my DB advice in the future :p
22:23:15  <TrueBrain> we had 1:30 for basestring + 1 language on MyISAM and no transactions
22:23:22  <TrueBrain> OwenS: no, it is good to know what works and what doesn't
22:24:24  <TrueBrain> but my slowness is mostly due to Django not being able to do a: DELETE FROM table WHERE subProject = 1
22:24:26  <TrueBrain> or what ever
22:24:41  <TrueBrain> and even worse, with UPDATE :p
22:25:30  <TrueBrain> 1:39 for InnoDB with transactions
22:25:57  <Eddi|zuHause> hah, it is out
22:26:27  <OwenS> Eddi|zuHause: That must have took a lot of effort. I think I managed to unscrew my old CPU fan assembly faster :p
22:27:43  <Baffage> How many planes should I have using one city airport at a time?
22:27:54  <TrueBrain> OwenS: lol, 1:43 for innoDB without transactions :p
22:28:07  <Yexo> Baffage: that depends on the distance your planes have to fly
22:28:09  <OwenS> See, transactions make some DBs faster :p
22:28:16  <Yexo> general answer: try and see for yourself what works
22:28:23  <TrueBrain> OwenS: you were fucking right :)
22:28:44  <OwenS> I think it allows them to cache more aggressively
22:28:46  <Rubidium> DaleStan: that sucks :(
22:28:49  <Eddi|zuHause> but still no beep
22:29:45  <Yexo> I was reading that 'beep' as 'sleep', I think I should get some sleep ;p
22:29:47  <OwenS> A bridge is dead gets my vote; I'm gonna guess northbridge as it may actually get further if it were the southbridge
22:29:49  <Yexo> good night
22:29:51  <Rubidium> DaleStan: can you find another way that introduces Makefile.local as unversioned file?
22:30:08  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: no beep? Fried BIOS? fried south-bridge? Well .. motherboard is fucked, lets leave it with that :p
22:30:32  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: assuming the beeper isn't damaged ;)
22:30:48  <OwenS> Fried northbridge, fried southbridge, fried superio, fried bios rom, pick any :p
22:31:03  <TrueBrain> whoho, 1 minute 9 ...
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22:31:15  <OwenS> How did you manage that?
22:31:23  <TrueBrain> Django 1.1 does have massive update shit
22:31:23  <DaleStan> I'm still trying to figure out why it won't link; if I can get that issue solved, getting the BOOST_* fixed will be easy.
22:31:41  <Rubidium> DaleStan: does nforenum link?
22:31:42  <Eddi|zuHause> means i can sell the CPU and the RAM on Ebay ;)
22:32:15  <OwenS> Not necessarily. May mean that a power regulator went funny and fried multiple components
22:32:17  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: yeah ... good luck with that
22:32:27  <TrueBrain> either way: good night all!!
22:32:30  <OwenS> night
22:32:34  <Rubidium> night TrueBrain
22:32:37  <TrueBrain> and tnx OwenS
22:33:01  <Zuu> Good night TrueBrain
22:39:23  <Eddi|zuHause> a friend had an article about reviving graphics cards by putting them into the oven at 100?C for 30 minutes, could that work with mainboards, too?
22:40:20  <Rubidium> there is a chance that it works
22:40:22  <OwenS> You know, I don't know... I don't see why it would work for graphics cards!
22:40:57  <Eddi|zuHause> if it's just a corroded connection, it might be fixed by slightly liquifying the metal
22:41:18  <OwenS> At 100degC?
22:41:48  <OwenS> Solder liquidizes at higher temperatures (150C for leaded, 200C for lead free I think?)
22:42:35  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, it listed like 10 cases where it worked and one where it didn't
22:42:46  <DaleStan> <Rubidium> does nforenum link? <-- Yes.
22:42:51  <OwenS> I have a feeling however at those temperatures some plastic components may suffer
22:45:46  <DaleStan> ... ... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot? I delete the *.os files and the .o files suddenly lose their undefined references?
22:47:48  <DaleStan> (... the .o files, which are never linked with .os files, ...)
22:48:04  * DaleStan is confused.
22:48:24  <Rubidium> DaleStan: I've just installed a cygwin and it heavily complains "The -mno-cygwin flag has been removed; use a mingw-targeted cross-compiler."
22:49:02  <Rubidium> removing the -mno-cygwin make it at least do something, though it fails further one now
22:49:38  <DaleStan> gcc 4 complains about that. gcc 3 does not. But now grfcodec is linking here.
22:51:31  <DaleStan> I still don't know what was wrong, though.
22:55:13  <Eddi|zuHause> they ship gcc4 with cygwin nowadays?
22:55:49  <xmakina> quick question before i make an ass of myself on the suggestion board: any way to change the error message color on the AI box? I find that red really hard to read
22:55:52  <xmakina> ?
22:58:05  <Eddi|zuHause> at which temperature do the capacitors blow up? :p
22:58:21  <Sacro> hehe
22:58:22  <Rubidium> xmakina: no, but -d ai=<some number between 0 and 9, don't know which one exactly but the higher the more chance> will print the error messages on the console
22:58:55  <xmakina> Rubidium: -d being a startup argument?
22:59:07  <Rubidium> yes
22:59:44  <Eddi|zuHause> you can change debug levels from the console, too
22:59:56  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: but does that spawn the console on Windows?
23:00:11  <Eddi|zuHause> i have no idea
23:00:41  <xmakina> Eddi|zuHause: how?
23:00:49  *** Zuu [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:00:58  <Eddi|zuHause> help?
23:01:25  <xmakina> Rubidium: just tried it with the console window - the line breaks in all the wrong places mean make it harder to follow. cheers anyway
23:01:27  <DaleStan> <Eddi|zuHause> they ship gcc4 with cygwin nowadays? <-- gcc3 and 4 are available for cygwin. I installed 4 and discovered (A) 4 didn't have -mno-cygwin, and (B) 3 won't work if 4 is installed. I uninstalled 4.
23:01:56  <xmakina> Eddi|zuHause: have you looked at consoles help? it's not very.
23:03:08  *** Zuu [] has joined #openttd
23:03:15  <xmakina> no worries - i'll drop a request on suggestions and until then a bit of squinting isn't going to kill me :P
23:05:01  <DaleStan> Is it a problem if I can make sense of the diff between two diffs?
23:05:29  <Eddi|zuHause> yes. means you have level 4 insanity
23:05:46  <Dragoon_Jett> What year do monorails come
23:06:01  <DaleStan> That depends on the vehicle set.
23:06:14  <Dragoon_Jett> How can I tell which vehicle set
23:06:17  <Dragoon_Jett> im using
23:06:54  <Eddi|zuHause> check the newgrf settings
23:07:09  <Dragoon_Jett> generic tram set
23:07:30  <Eddi|zuHause> that won't affect monorail ;)
23:07:39  <Dragoon_Jett> So which year :)
23:07:53  <DaleStan> You're most likely using the default vehicles, so somewhere around 2001. I think.
23:07:58  <Eddi|zuHause> i haven't played with the default vehicles in years
23:08:06  <Rubidium> DaleStan: did grfmrgc.bin not link for you? If so, changing the .os to .o in "grfmrgc.bin:grfmerge.o $(GRFMERGESRC:%.c=%.o)" makes it compile
23:08:21  <Rubidium> (both ".os"s)
23:08:23  <Zuu> I think it is later than 2001 but could be wrong.
23:08:37  <DaleStan> It didn't link because -mno-cygwin objects were being linked with a -mcygwin linker.
23:08:42  <Eddi|zuHause> times are randomised around 2 years
23:08:44  <DaleStan> Or maybe vice-versa.\
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23:09:41  <Eddi|zuHause> i hate disassembling computers... you always step on leftover screws afterwards
23:09:55  <carl^> whoa, way more people than I expected here
23:10:36  <xmakina> Eddi|zuHause: but at least those screws come in handy when a cheapskate manufacturer sells you a hard disk sans the screws for it
23:10:54  <Eddi|zuHause> xmakina: yeah, i have a whole box of those...
23:10:59  <Dragoon_Jett> How long is one game year in real time
23:11:02  <Belugas> don't talk to Eddi|zuHause about Hard disks...
23:11:18  <Rubidium> Dragoon_Jett: days in year * 2.220 s
23:11:38  *** Zuu [] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
23:12:23  <Belugas> which is to say, a day lasts about 2.220 seconds in real life.  why? you want to nkow how many minutes lest before sleeping time? to tv show?
23:12:24  <Eddi|zuHause> something around 15 minutes
23:13:30  <Dragoon_Jett> I want to know how long till monorales
23:13:48  <Eddi|zuHause> i want a new computer
23:13:59  <xmakina> Dragoon_Jett: high speed is your bestest friend if you're waiting for something to happen
23:14:06  <Dragoon_Jett> im multiplayer
23:14:28  <xmakina> then a cup of tea is your best friend
23:14:32  <xmakina> :)
23:14:59  <Sacro> oh yes
23:15:03  <Sacro> <3 cups of tea
23:15:11  <Eddi|zuHause> i once read a theory about correlation of time dilation and rate of entropy change ;)
23:15:30  <Eddi|zuHause> meaning time runs slower if you wait for something to happen, and faster when you actually do something
23:15:45  <carl^> like waiting for moneyz in multiplayer to expand
23:15:48  <Eddi|zuHause> "sacro is less than 3 cups of tea"?
23:16:41  <Sacro> yes
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23:19:47  <Dragoon_Jett> 10 more years till 2000
23:22:57  <Eddi|zuHause> strange, i am already in year 2009
23:23:20  <OwenS> Eddi|zuHause: Some people are perpeptually in the past
23:25:27  <Rubidium> DaleStan: fixes it for me
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