Log for #openttd on 23rd September 2009:
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00:00:23  <Eddi|zuHause> sometimes i have no idea why that particular hunk failed to apply...
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00:30:55  <Eddi|zuHause> how do i find out which string used to be "STR_00E2"?
00:32:00  <Eddi|zuHause> ah, "STR_BLACK_COMMA"
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00:32:57  <PeterT> Somebody send Rubidium my regards for fixing my bug. Thank you.
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05:57:39  <dihedral> morning :-)
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06:03:50  <dihedral> <PeterT> [02:32:57] Somebody send Rubidium my regards for fixing my bug. Thank you. <- you mean a bug you have found, or YOUR BUG?? :-P
06:04:41  <Xaroth> hopefully the latter
06:05:04  <Xaroth> I would almost pay to have the bug known as PeterT.. being fixed....
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06:20:19  <dihedral> <- looks interesting :-)
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06:24:51  <Terkhen> good morning
06:26:11  <Xaroth> dihedral: agreed
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08:32:41  <arfonzo> hi all, is there a way of removing of these debug messages without recompiling: dbg: [net] [udp] queried from 'ip address'
08:32:56  <arfonzo> my logs are absolutely unreadable...
08:33:28  <dihedral> debuglevel = 0
08:33:33  <dihedral> ./openttd -d 0
08:33:59  <dihedral> something along those lines
08:35:41  <arfonzo> dihedral: thank you, will this allow me to log player chats?
08:35:51  <dihedral> yes
08:35:56  <dihedral> player chat is not debug
08:36:00  <arfonzo> i wasn't able to find much info on debug levels and what gets logged.. perhaps i wasn't looking on the right page on the wiki though
08:36:08  <arfonzo> great, thanks dihedral
08:36:14  <dihedral> what os are you on?
08:36:19  <arfonzo> linux x64
08:36:21  <dihedral> just out of curiosity
08:36:22  <dihedral> nice
08:36:30  <arfonzo> for the dedicated server anyhow
08:36:30  <dihedral> you might like ap+
08:36:33  <dihedral> or autopilot
08:36:52  <arfonzo> hm, more details please? I haven't run our dedicated host for about 2 years now so I'm a little out of date... :) :(
08:37:31  <arfonzo> what exactly does it/they do
08:37:56  <dihedral> they wrapp a openttd dedicated server
08:38:04  <dihedral> they are bots for the game
08:38:21  <dihedral> read what openttd prints on the console, and can automate actions based on that
08:38:41  <dihedral> + they can bridge the chat to an irc channel
08:38:58  <dihedral> with ap+ you can also easily write your own commands
08:39:02  <arfonzo> oh wow... this is actually probably exactly what I'd like to accomplish
08:39:15  <dihedral> e.g. saying !time in the game will make the server chat back with the current time
08:39:43  <dihedral> we are working on a rewrite, but that project has grown a bit and is still pre-alpha :-P
08:40:18  <arfonzo> sounds interesting indeed, do you have a URL I can check out
08:41:55  <dihedral> just looking for that
08:42:21  <dihedral>
08:42:34  <dihedral>
08:43:05  <arfonzo> thanks, i will look at this later tonight, i've just actually just started work so i don't think my company would appreciate me playing with my openttd server atm... unfortunately!
08:43:07  <dihedral> if you need support, etc. feel free to join #codecubes
08:43:38  <arfonzo> do i need to recompile openttd or does this work purely by reading the openttd.log?
08:45:15  <dihedral> it starts openttd for you
08:45:30  <dihedral> also has the abbility to log to a mysql db
08:45:58  <dihedral> what's your openttd servers name
08:46:29  <arfonzo> sec let me grep it
08:47:20  <arfonzo> server_name = [0x0] PoorCoding Public Dedicated Server (until 2400AD)
08:47:42  <dihedral> you are not advertising :-P
08:47:53  <arfonzo> hm, it was as of last night...
08:48:08  <dihedral> not in the list
08:48:46  <arfonzo> apologies, it was renamed and hasn't reloaded
08:49:25  <dihedral> :-)
08:49:27  <dihedral> thanks
08:50:41  <arfonzo> it's currently about 3-day long games, I think I'm going to cut it down to 24 hours games... autoclean is wreaking havoc and I don't know if there is a good balance of values for autoclean for 3 day games
08:52:58  <dihedral> at least in trunk, it's possible to remove only companies that have no vehicles
08:53:04  <dihedral> i dont know about 0.7.2
08:53:18  <arfonzo> i believe that option was in 0.7.2's .cfg as well
08:53:38  <arfonzo> so should autoclean protected and unprotected be set to 0, and only use novehicles?
08:55:12  <dihedral> once you can script around openttd (e.g. by using ap+) you can write your own :-P
08:56:13  <arfonzo> excellent... looking forward to checking out ap+
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09:44:05  <Eddi|zuHause> gnah... gui stuff is making me crazy... wtf was i thinking!
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11:21:00  <arfonzo> dihedral: I've just run 'openttd -d 0 -D' however the "query" lines are still showing up
11:21:33  <arfonzo> also, is there a way to force openttd to write to openttd.log even tho it's not invoked with the -f option?
11:21:57  <arfonzo> (i.e., to have console and to log)
11:22:42  <planetmaker> arfonzo, tee is the tool which pipes into to things at once
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11:23:22  <dihedral> arfonzo, there is a console command debuglevel
11:24:46  <Rubidium> arfonzo: as the man page states: use -d after -D
11:27:32  <dihedral> heh...? -d after -D? there is an order to those options?
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11:28:46  <arfonzo> Rubidium: thanks, I was following the synopsis without reading the options section :)
11:28:50  <Rubidium> -D sets some debug levels, as described in the manpage
11:29:33  <Rubidium> as such, -D overrides some of the debug levels set by any -d that is ran before it, but is overridden by the -d that is after it
11:32:06  <arfonzo> planetmaker: thanks... i forgot about tee!
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11:32:54  <dihedral> Rubidium, thanks for that info
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12:19:20  <crakinshot> hey planetmaker, you see the update I did?
12:23:29  <davis`>  :]
12:25:20  <Sacro> [:
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12:26:03  <Sacro>
12:26:14  <arfonzo> bananas
12:26:15  <Sacro> perhaps not entirely sfw
12:26:33  <arfonzo> i had to try...
12:26:34  <crakinshot> thanklyfuly I have an office all to myself. :D
12:37:53  <Eddi|zuHause> "STR_TINT_GROUP :{TINYFONT}{GROUP}" <-- any chance that should have been "TINY" instead of "TINT"?
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12:52:05  <glx> a very high probability :)
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13:03:45  <Belugas> hello
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13:23:15  <SpComb> hmm, cargodist?
13:25:18  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: glx * r17619 /trunk/src/ (53 files in 3 dirs): -Fix: rename STR_TINT_GROUP to STR_TINY_GROUP
13:25:23  <glx> Eddi|zuHause: happy ?
13:25:30  <Eddi|zuHause> :)
13:25:48  <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: context?
13:26:12  <Rubidium> I guess he's thinking it's a typo
13:26:17  <SpComb>
13:26:30  <SpComb> no, I see it's a new project
13:26:45  <Rubidium> for different values of new
13:27:07  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, my thought exactly...
13:27:26  <Eddi|zuHause> "new" if you have been sleeping for one year
13:27:26  <Rubidium> unless 7 months means 'new'
13:27:40  <SpComb> well, post-cargodest
13:27:44  <SpComb> and I have been sleeping for a year
13:27:57  <Eddi|zuHause> then yes.
13:28:18  <SpComb> so if I want to play OpenTTD, but I don't want to play with the origional passenger routing stuff, what do I play? :(
13:28:43  <Rubidium> a cargo only game?
13:28:43  <Eddi|zuHause> i have not tested cargodist yet
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13:30:30  * Rubidium isn't fond of either implementation due the design choices made
13:31:04  <KingJ> I love cargodist, encourages network building
13:31:38  <SpComb> it seems like it's a difficult problem due to the cargo-generation bit
13:31:59  <SpComb> been a while since I played cargodest so I can't remember exactly, but there were some random issues
13:32:37  <KingJ> I think there is a bug in the latest one where cargo isn't transfered unless a transfer order is explicitly made
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13:33:52  <KingJ> E.g, Pax at A want to go to C,D,E. To get there, they have to get a train via B. However, at B, the train from A unloads and the passengers do not appear on the station at B.
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13:45:04  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe you just didn't enable it?
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13:51:33  <KingJ> Link graphs appear on the minimap
13:51:37  <KingJ> I'll check though
13:54:16  <KingJ> As far as I see it's enabled (unless i've missed a specifc enabling option), stations have passengers waiting at them for various destinations. It's just that when passengers change at a station, they dissapear
13:55:29  <KingJ> And if a station dosen't accept passengers (e.g out of town bus/train transfer station) passengers won't transfer
13:55:42  <KingJ> unless you explicitly tell them to
13:56:08  <Eddi|zuHause> there were recent commits about cargo acceptance in trunk, maybe they broke something
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13:56:55  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, the right place to ask is the forum thread ;)
13:57:12  <KingJ> And hm, it seems any train can take cargo for any destination, something's odd here
13:58:28  <KingJ> Forum thread here I come :)
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14:02:21  <KingJ> Wonder if is interfering, a lot of the trains are timetabled
14:04:52  <KingJ> Aha! That is the problem indeed!
14:04:56  <Eddi|zuHause> then maybe that commit has not been backported to cargodist yet
14:05:43  <KingJ> I don't think it has
14:05:51  <KingJ> The one i'm using was built on the 12th
14:05:56  <KingJ> That fix was commited on the 15th
14:07:07  <Eddi|zuHause> then you missed the part about "before submitting bug reports, update to the latest version first"
14:07:55  <Eddi|zuHause> so... what happened to "GetVehicleOrder"?
14:08:02  <Eddi|zuHause> "Vehicle::GetOrder"?
14:09:30  <Rubidium> well, find the commit that removed it
14:11:56  <Eddi|zuHause> @openttd commit 16397
14:11:57  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: Commit by rubidium :: r16397 /trunk/src (8 files in 2 dirs) (2009-05-23 12:27:42 UTC)
14:11:58  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: -Codechange: move GetVehicleOrder/GetLastVehicleOrder into Vehicle
14:19:24  <crakinshot> is everything new moving toward Name::Get() rather than GetName() ?
14:19:57  <crakinshot> personally I like structure statics because I can protect access functions and friend only stuff that should be using them
14:20:42  <crakinshot> for instance, my SignalEx constructors are private and friend the SaveLoad functions
14:21:10  <crakinshot> so only SignalEx::Create(tile) can actually make them
14:21:20  <crakinshot> which then does all the correct type checking
14:21:40  <crakinshot> and tile alteration
14:23:01  <crakinshot> but with loading of course, it just wants to make the pool items.
14:23:39  <Belugas> is everything new moving toward Name::Get() rather than GetName() ?  <-- i think it's done only when serving a purpose
14:25:15  <crakinshot> right ok
14:27:31  <crakinshot> Out of interest, is it unlikely my patch will get in unless something actually uses it?
14:27:55  <Rubidium> yes
14:28:24  <Rubidium> if everything someone once made would get in there'd be a vast quantity of unused stuff lingering around
14:28:41  <crakinshot> hmm... well I mean that's okay because I'm working on something that'll use it.
14:29:39  <Rubidium> (not to mention the amount of projects that fails to get the last 10% done)
14:29:44  <crakinshot> but if there are any other signal patches in the works (that need a lot of stored data) it probably would be better to get them to use this method. at least in my opinion
14:30:32  <crakinshot> specifically, if anyone is working on restricted or programmable signals
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14:33:53  <Rubidium> that's what the forum's for
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14:34:03  <Rubidium> (and IRC)
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14:36:10  <Eddi|zuHause> what i could occasionally use would be defining an exact path through the juncton, e.g. "if (cargo==livestock) go (left, straight, straight, right, straight, platform 5)"
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14:37:48  <crakinshot> that's generally what I'm hoping to do
14:38:01  <crakinshot> although seperate it into two
14:39:12  <crakinshot> one that defines theatres Theatre1= (left, straight, straight, right, straight, platform 5) and another extention for programmable signals, if (cargo==livestock) go to Theatre1
14:41:05  <crakinshot> untimatly I just want the little feathers on the signals to light up indicating what route the train is taking.. hehe. ;)
14:41:17  <crakinshot> everything else is to make it more worthwhile to everyone else
14:41:48  <welsh> crakinshot: as well as feathers: can we have little numbers, and call on signals?
14:41:57  <Sacro> can't have call on
14:42:07  <Sacro> openttd doesn't support mutiple trains per block
14:42:23  <crakinshot> then how does crashes work?
14:42:31  <Sacro> well that's a SPAD
14:42:59  <crakinshot> But you could just alter that code and add in the condition that the train has call-on
14:43:15  <crakinshot> then when the train gets to the other train, instead of crashing they merge
14:43:21  <crakinshot> simple done
14:43:26  <Sacro> the train code would need to be able to look for trains in section
14:43:53  <crakinshot> yeah, but thats already done in the crash code
14:43:56  <crakinshot> ;)
14:45:30  <crakinshot> my long term asperations is to add on realistic deceleration
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14:45:43  <Sacro> yellow/double yellows?
14:45:52  <crakinshot> yeah
14:45:56  <crakinshot> so they'd slow a train down
14:46:08  <crakinshot> if a train just had a red, it wouldn't be able to stop in time
14:46:27  <crakinshot> so you get SPAD's and it makes the game, well more into a game
14:46:53  <crakinshot> if you've set up your track wrong, trains would likely pass red and crash
14:47:04  <Belugas> [10:45] <crakinshot> my long term asperations is to add on realistic deceleration  <---  took you quite a long time to spit it out... BEURK
14:47:24  <welsh> ignore Belugas
14:47:28  <welsh> he hates realism
14:47:35  <crakinshot> ha...
14:47:39  <crakinshot> I know
14:47:51  <crakinshot> but he said it was because it made the game easier (on my post)
14:48:12  <crakinshot> when it would make the game harder and more interesting.
14:48:55  <Eddi|zuHause> yellow signals can increase capacity on conjested lines
14:49:38  <Eddi|zuHause> because faster trains would not stop on every signal, but instead slow down towards the speed of the slower train in front of them
14:49:59  <Muxy> Eddi: i agree
14:50:22  <crakinshot> yup, definatly something I'd use
14:51:44  <welsh> being able to select a signal at a loop/station and direct trains would be good too
14:52:06  <crakinshot> welsh: can we have little numbers, and call on signals? <-- you'd probably be able to show call-on's (1pixel for the lights), but I doubt you'd be able to make out numbers for the theatres
14:52:23  <Eddi|zuHause> hm, what's the difference between "SetWindowWidgetDirty" and "w->SetWidgetDirty"?
14:52:26  <welsh> as you could get trains to overtake, and feel a bit more in control :)
14:54:22  <crakinshot> thats probably more toward train orders and platform definitions
14:54:39  <crakinshot> order trains to use a range of platforms only
14:54:40  <welsh> hehe
14:55:08  <crakinshot> so you can have terminal platforms and through-platforms
14:55:22  <crakinshot> but trains terminating at that station will get off the mainline
14:55:42  <Sacro> crakinshot: doooo eeet
14:55:43  <Sacro> now!
14:56:07  <Sacro> and flashing greens too
14:56:09  <crakinshot> lol
14:56:10  <Sacro> for 140MPH running
14:56:34  <crakinshot> I could probably throw something up for the platform and train orders
14:56:37  <Sacro> might want to differ between permissive passenger and permissive freight too
14:56:37  <Eddi|zuHause> over here, flashing green means speed limit ahead
14:56:54  <Sacro> here means next signal is flashing green or green
14:57:11  <Sacro> and can do 140 if train is allowed
14:57:32  <Eddi|zuHause> in Hl system, flashing green means speed limit = 100km/h
14:57:49  <Eddi|zuHause> on the next signal
14:58:18  <Muxy> beter decelerate fro 50% of its original speed
14:58:23  <Eddi|zuHause> flashing yellow means speed limit is 40 or 60 km/h on the next signal
14:59:44  <Belugas> you do understand that having some flashes in x colors means the user will have to interpret the data?  That starts to get a bit too much of an expert system, doesn't it??
14:59:45  <Eddi|zuHause> (which of both can only be signalled on the main signal)
14:59:54  <crakinshot> well you can generalise it somewhat in code and have the GRF choose how to render
15:00:26  <Muxy> stop flashing, use a yellow signal
15:00:34  <Eddi|zuHause> you really can't model the full extent of every signalling system
15:00:42  <crakinshot> Belugas: combo signals still confuse me. :D
15:01:49  * Belugas nods
15:02:15  <Eddi|zuHause> if it were up to me, those would have been removed with YAPP :p
15:03:02  <crakinshot> arn't they now completely depreciated by PBS?
15:03:27  <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: then we are lucky :-P
15:03:56  <Ammler> crakinshot: they aren't but you should be able to build without.
15:04:24  <Belugas> don['t touch my regular signals!!
15:05:00  <crakinshot> don't worry, they become 2 aspect in my reeeaaalistic signalling model. :D
15:06:17  <crakinshot> Ammler: so there are still cases where combo's solve the problem and PBS cannot?
15:06:22  <Sacro> Yes
15:06:34  <Ammler> It would be easier to drop pbs
15:07:37  <Ammler> crakinshot: well, mainly priorities.
15:08:46  <Belugas> PBS was dropped at one point
15:09:16  <Belugas> but when it went back, the crowd aws extatic
15:09:40  <crakinshot> yeah I do love PBS when it comes to junctions
15:10:06  <Ammler> I think it rather ugly, if you use pbs signalls on line without split/join
15:10:29  <Sacro> yes
15:10:36  <Sacro> PBS = controlled signal
15:10:41  <Sacro> normal = automatic signal
15:11:17  <blathijs> PBS signals should have an operating cost of 100 times as high as a normal signal :-)
15:11:38  <Ammler> yeah, indeed :-)
15:11:45  <crakinshot> but its still essentially the same thing.
15:11:46  <Rubidium> nah, a higher failure rate :)
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15:12:21  <crakinshot> except with PBS  the block is a rail route, while with normal the entire junction is locked
15:12:24  <blathijs> Rubidium: Random red signals on your main lines every now and then :-)
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15:13:46  <Belugas> hooo... that is a wikedly good idea!!!
15:13:50  <Belugas> wickedly
15:13:53  <Belugas> whatever
15:14:30  <crakinshot> I remember the signalbox controlling the line I was on got hit my lighting
15:14:35  <planetmaker> and it would be realistically!
15:14:36  <crakinshot> all signals failed
15:14:45  <planetmaker> in case of failure the fail-save mode is red for signals.
15:15:49  <Eddi|zuHause> if the signal is "dark", the train must assume it is red, and call for permission to pass
15:15:59  <crakinshot> I think thats what happened
15:16:09  <crakinshot> signal transformer box got hit
15:16:52  <crakinshot> anyhow, Belugas just liked a realistic idea
15:17:31  <welsh> CELEBRATE! GOOD TIMES!
15:17:38  <Belugas> i never said i was 100% opposed to it...
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15:17:56  <welsh> Belugas: but it's the r word
15:18:00  <welsh> you hate it ;)
15:18:03  <Belugas> i always said that adding jsut because it adds realism is a stupid idea
15:18:42  <crakinshot> yeah yeah I guess at that point it really just was for looks
15:18:56  <Belugas> if the only argument for a feature is that it adds realism, it's a bogus feature
15:19:10  <Belugas> so, yes, if it's a look that is aimed at, it's ridiculous
15:19:46  <Belugas> because if you want to have a more realiastic look, can you imagine all the things that need to be fixed?
15:19:56  <Rubidium> Belugas: haven't you learned that people can't handle nuances? Either you dislike 'realistic' stuff or not; you can't like some 'realistic' stuff :)
15:19:57  <Belugas> that would not be TTD anymore
15:20:15  <Belugas> yeah... people have binary opinions :(
15:20:52  <Belugas> maybe i'm too much involved in music, where nuances are everything :S
15:22:51  <Muxy> yellow signal is a kind of nuance
15:23:00  <crakinshot> Well these ideas I have all add more interest and flavour to the gameplay, and of course, can be chosen to be enabled... it just happens to be a coincidence that the by-product is a new look
15:23:58  <crakinshot> I think that's the main point through. If you have a good patch that adds a new dimension, people don't HAVE to enable it.
15:24:47  <Muxy> and in that case this dimension add a kind of reality AND improove game play
15:25:44  <crakinshot> plus its not taken from TTDPatch.
15:25:47  <crakinshot> :D
15:26:39  <crakinshot> I couldn't figure out whether the dev's didn't like the programmed signals in general, or because it was a feature TTDPatch had that people wanted
15:28:12  <DaleStan> My understanding (I am not a dev, I do not speak for the devs, yadda yadda) is that the devs believe route restrictions and programmable signals have a UI that is too complicated for the average user.
15:29:02  <glx> orders GUI is already too complex for some users
15:30:05  <crakinshot> I didn't like the "Stop at far end" patch
15:30:31  <crakinshot> too much information on one screen
15:31:30  <Eddi|zuHause> well, my original patch unconditionally made trains stop in the middle
15:31:43  <Eddi|zuHause> but some people wanted it configurable, e.g. for terminal stations
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15:33:41  <Belugas> yeah... people always want more... give a finger, they want the arm
15:33:50  <Belugas> then you raise the finger ^_^
15:33:53  * Belugas shuts up
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15:34:19  <Eddi|zuHause> you ever found that image you lost? :p
15:35:43  <Belugas> lol
15:35:48  <Belugas> got anouther one :)
15:37:45  <crakinshot> right I'm off home.
15:38:30  <crakinshot> I might try doing the deceleration stuff tonight, and laugh at all the trains SPAD'ing
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15:39:59  <planetmaker> apropos music... the last music file I downloaded from some openttd page was quite nice :-)
15:40:32  <Belugas> :D
15:40:36  <Belugas> hem... which one?
15:40:38  <Belugas> the tempo one?
15:41:10  <Belugas> There has been some new lately
15:42:20  <planetmaker> the one you gave me the direct link to... is already a few days ago.
15:42:36  <Belugas> tempo indeed :)
15:42:41  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: rubidium * r17620 /trunk/src/misc_gui.cpp: -Fix (r17502): edit box offsets were off. Now they're still off, but look (in my opinion) even better than before
15:42:50  <Belugas> i really love that one :D
15:43:13  <planetmaker> well, yes, that fit :-) Nice changes of those and of those two instruments :-)
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16:07:30  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: rubidium * r17621 /trunk/ (7 files in 3 dirs): -Document [FS#3216]: most of the functions an AI can/must use in their instantiation of AIInfo.
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16:15:37  <Eddi|zuHause> i can't repair my switch :( ... the glue is not strong enough
16:16:25  <Belugas> metal epoxy
16:16:29  <Belugas> have some at home
16:16:34  <Belugas> freaking good glue
16:17:22  <Eddi|zuHause> how do i get a needle-head sized amount of this on my switch?
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16:20:44  <SmatZ> m?rklin?
16:21:44  *** thisismyname_ [~chatzilla@] has joined #openttd
16:22:05  <Eddi|zuHause> no. Piko
16:23:17  *** davis` [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:23:18  <Belugas> WITH A NEEDLE?
16:23:23  <Belugas> sorry
16:23:29  <Belugas> with a needle?
16:23:46  <Eddi|zuHause> needles i have, glue is the problem
16:24:18  <Belugas> have solutions, stores, to your problem
16:24:39  <Eddi|zuHause> that opens a whole lot of other problems :p
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16:28:50  <andythenorth> afternoon
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16:30:29  <andythenorth> hmmm....dropping mac support.  I can't file that under 'awesome' :|
16:30:50  <andythenorth> I see the case.  I've posted in the thread
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16:35:42  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i have a feeling i'm not getting forward with this gui crap...
16:37:05  <Eddi|zuHause> there is apparently a new widget defined, but the only occurance within this patch is a "HideWidget" statement
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16:48:58  <Sacro> hahahaha
16:48:59  <Sacro> finally
16:49:04  <Sacro> Wolfenstien recalled in Germany
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16:51:22  <Sacro> oh it's the new one
16:51:30  <Sacro> over a small flyer shown on an ingame wall
16:51:37  <Eddi|zuHause> apparently, they missed removing a swastika
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16:53:02  <Eddi|zuHause> display of nazi-symbols is forbidden in germany, except for scientifical or historical purposes
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16:55:54  <Eddi|zuHause> Sacro: the old version always was "indexed" [which is as close to "forbidden" as it gets]
16:56:08  <Sacro> ahh
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17:04:58  <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause: is there still purpose of that?
17:05:16  <SmatZ> forbidding nacistic symbols
17:05:24  <Eddi|zuHause> well... the "purpose" is always questionable...
17:06:06  <Eddi|zuHause> it's the law, and nobody seriously wants to change it
17:06:22  *** andythenorth [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:06:30  <Eddi|zuHause> "use of anticonstitutional symbols"
17:06:42  <Sacro> pfft]
17:06:49  <SmatZ> it has been 60 years
17:07:07  <SmatZ> forbidding things isn't solution, better explain why something is bad
17:07:31  <SmatZ> and I believe children in Germany get good education
17:07:49  <Eddi|zuHause> have you read any of the recent PISA results? :p
17:08:42  <SmatZ> I think I did, but I forgot most of it...
17:09:08  <SmatZ> I was looking at the worst countries :-p
17:09:09  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, don't expect anything to change in the near or medium future...
17:09:28  <Eddi|zuHause> if at all, pressure is done into making it worse...
17:10:21  <SmatZ> people want freedom, and if they feel it's being taken from them, they will be unhappy :-p
17:11:22  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, it's fine as long as more people are made happy by forbidding other people to do something :p
17:11:43  <Eddi|zuHause> but with all the "internet laws", the balance might tip in the near future ;)
17:12:02  <SmatZ> :-/
17:12:03  <Eddi|zuHause> as more of the "internet generation" become eligible to vote
17:12:24  <SmatZ> I hope so
17:13:01  <Eddi|zuHause> over the past couple of years, the pirate party went from 0.5% in Hessen over 0.9% in european election to 1.9% in Sachsen
17:13:14  <Eddi|zuHause> next sunday is $BIG_ELECTION
17:13:21  <SmatZ> :)
17:13:44  <SmatZ> actually, I am seriously considering voting our pirate party
17:13:59  <SmatZ> for "freedom" reasons
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17:15:20  <SmatZ> not that I think "pirating" software is fine, but current situation is unbearable
17:16:01  * Rubidium wonders whether google has been banned in Germany :)
17:16:11  <SmatZ> hehe
17:16:56  <Rubidium> at least last time I used Google Earth it used swastikas for temples in Japan
17:17:04  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: that would make us seriously worse than china :p
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17:32:53  <Eddi|zuHause> <-- this might be something for Sacro ;)
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17:41:31  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: so *that* was the reason they stopped broadcasting ARD here
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17:42:12  <Eddi|zuHause> ;)
17:45:44  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: translators * r17622 /trunk/src/lang/ (9 files): (log message trimmed)
17:45:44  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:44  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: catalan - 8 changes by arnau
17:45:44  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: dutch - 5 changes by habell
17:45:44  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: english_US - 9 changes by agenthh
17:45:46  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: french - 5 changes by glx
17:45:46  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: indonesian - 5 changes by prof
17:45:56  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... of course the egyptians are angry when their candidate does not get elected...
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18:20:50  <petern> who's good with leaseweb?
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18:21:17  <Rubidium> TrueBrain!
18:22:36  <petern> TrueBrain!
18:23:02  <petern> just need a support/abuse/etc type email address
18:23:16  <petern> got one of those fucking w00tw00t bots coming from an ip in their space
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18:23:53  <Rubidium> ?
18:24:03  <TrueBrain> As with all such problems: whois <ip> gives you a abuse-mailbox
18:24:14  <petern> yes i know
18:24:14  <TrueBrain> whois <ip> | grep abuse-mailbox
18:24:21  <petern> but i didn't bother reading that
18:25:02  <TrueBrain> Rubidium: I rarely use any contact information on such page .. reports about spam and other virusses mostly get ignored by those addresses :) The emails given in the RIPE data is mostly more effictive
18:25:07  <TrueBrain> calling those numbers even more .... :p
18:25:22  <Rubidium> TrueBrain: have you read the page?
18:25:27  <TrueBrain> nope :)
18:25:40  <Rubidium> well, it lists
18:25:44  <TrueBrain> good for them
18:25:51  <Rubidium> which is also listed in your whois query
18:26:18  <Rubidium> so if it gets ignored, then the email in the whois query would be ignored too
18:26:24  <TrueBrain> that would make Leaseweb one of the few ... I rather pick a single CLI command to find such address, then to open my browser, try to locate the right page ......
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18:27:41  <petern> well, we'll see
18:28:02  <TrueBrain> petern: but I think it goes a bit too far to report to leaseweb :p (ghehe, just kidding, of course)
18:28:09  <petern> :D:D
18:29:44  <Eddi|zuHause> what's the right replacement for "!HASBITS(a, b)"?
18:30:04  <Eddi|zuHause> a^b?
18:30:06  <Rubidium> AFAIK there isn't one
18:30:10  <Eddi|zuHause> ~a^b?
18:30:22  <Eddi|zuHause> my logic is poor today
18:30:36  <TrueBrain> ~a^b .. I need to look op operator orders for that :p
18:31:05  <Eddi|zuHause> ~(a&b)?
18:31:23  <Eddi|zuHause> bah, i must learn to think in bitwise operations
18:31:34  <FauxFaux> 23/19:31:30 < FauxFaux> geordi: --precedence ~a^b
18:31:35  <FauxFaux> 23/19:31:30 < geordi> (~a)^b
18:31:43  <Rubidium> and depending on what was actually meant with that, because HASBITS was kinda 'wrong'
18:32:07  <Rubidium> it was more has at least of the bits
18:32:43  <Rubidium> for what it's worth: #define HASBITS(a, b) ((a) & (b))
18:33:35  <Eddi|zuHause> so !(a&b)?
18:33:49  <Rubidium> yup
18:34:20  <Rubidium> although that *might* be incorrect if the original coder had an incorrect assumption about HASBITS
18:35:16  <Eddi|zuHause> 	if (!HASBITS(orders->GetHeadwayFlags(), HWFB_ACTIVE | HWFB_INITIALIZE)) return CMD_ERROR;
18:35:25  <Eddi|zuHause> not sure if you can read an intention out of that...
18:36:18  <Rubidium> not really; not familiar with the content of that 200k? patch
18:37:37  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, about that...
18:38:39  <Eddi|zuHause> it doesn't have a lot of conflicts... just the gui stuff is making me crazy, and a lot of plain cleanup replacements (like StringIDs and function-memberisation
18:39:26  <CraKinShOt> hmm
18:39:29  <CraKinShOt> interesting.
18:40:31  <CraKinShOt> if I'm reading this correct, a train is only stopped if v->force_proceed is false
18:40:55  <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds like the plan
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18:41:20  <Eddi|zuHause> "force_proceed" is the skip-signal button in the vehicle window
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18:41:44  <CraKinShOt> well this'll make things interesting
18:41:54  <CraKinShOt> can simulate SPADs
18:42:17  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: (a & b) == 0
18:43:00  <Eddi|zuHause> if that's what the coding style requires, i will use that, yes
18:43:02  <CraKinShOt> XD
18:43:27  <Prof_Frink> CraKinShOt: No we can't. That would be realistic.
18:44:06  <CraKinShOt>  "/* v->force_proceed == 0 */"
18:44:11  <CraKinShOt> tehe
18:45:33  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: code style does not seem to demand that
18:45:51  <Prof_Frink> Dreamxtreme: Let's get this straight... You're complaining about having to live in the Peak?
18:46:09  <Dreamxtreme> heh yea
18:46:18  <Dreamxtreme> its in the middle of nowhere
18:46:27  <Prof_Frink> But but but...
18:46:32  <Dreamxtreme> not much nightlife
18:46:40  <Prof_Frink> Lots of grit.
18:46:42  <Dreamxtreme> ???????
18:46:44  <Dreamxtreme> lol
18:46:53  <Dreamxtreme> i dont drive
18:47:08  <Prof_Frink> Not road grit.
18:47:31  <Dreamxtreme> and besides you cant get the Sheffield on the road or train in rough winter weather
18:47:38  <Dreamxtreme> what grit then
18:47:53  <petern> who'd what to get to sheffield...
18:47:57  <petern> *want
18:48:12  <Prof_Frink> <-- That grit.
18:48:54  <Dreamxtreme> what are you referring to the rock faces ?
18:49:28  <Prof_Frink> Gritstone.
18:49:54  <Dreamxtreme> Sheffield had a make over petern its nice now
18:50:01  <Dreamxtreme> why is that good Prof_Frink
18:50:22  <Prof_Frink> Friction. Lots of it.
18:50:44  <Dreamxtreme> why do i need friction
18:51:00  <Prof_Frink> To stick to the rock.
18:51:10  <Dreamxtreme> o
18:51:15  <Dreamxtreme> i dont rock climb
18:51:21  <Dreamxtreme> i hill climb though
18:51:38  <Dreamxtreme> climbed up Kinder Scout
18:52:16  <Prof_Frink> My mate took a photo of some people climbing up Kinder. It's in the new guidebook.
18:52:35  <Dreamxtreme> o nice
18:52:46  <Dreamxtreme> well i did it one handed
18:54:31  <Prof_Frink> The guys in his photo were using both hands, and spiky things.
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18:55:07  <Dreamxtreme> hehe
18:55:10  <Dreamxtreme> wimps
18:55:47  <Prof_Frink> Ummm, no. Kinder Downfall in winter conditions.
18:56:04  <Dreamxtreme> i had to hold a aerial in 1 hand
18:56:10  <Dreamxtreme> easy
18:56:18  <Dreamxtreme> try nevis in winter
18:56:29  <Dreamxtreme> almost impossible
19:00:55  <Prof_Frink> Dreamxtreme: What, like ?
19:01:26  <Dreamxtreme> yea
19:01:42  <Eddi|zuHause> "I cant see what would take so long to add these essential features," <- O.M.G. i can't bear it anymore...
19:01:49  <Dreamxtreme> thats  Real  climbing
19:02:02  <Prof_Frink> I want to. Planning to do a PYB/Glenmore Lodge course in the new year.
19:02:05  <Dreamxtreme> what features Eddi|zuHause ?
19:02:19  <Eddi|zuHause> the "upcoming features"
19:02:21  <Dreamxtreme> glenmore is nice
19:02:29  <Belugas>
19:02:42  <Belugas> he's a troll
19:02:48  <Belugas> he's a nutcrack
19:02:59  <Belugas> the world should bow before him
19:03:40  <Dreamxtreme> curved railroad tracks,!!!
19:03:48  <Dreamxtreme> finally
19:04:30  <Belugas> nice
19:04:33  <Belugas> we'll imlpement that
19:04:36  <Belugas> and then,
19:04:43  <Belugas> it willbe OpenMotion
19:04:46  <Belugas> prrrrrt
19:04:53  <Eddi|zuHause> "people traving cramed into cattle sheds" <- i'd be arrested if i described that as a "realistic feature"
19:05:49  <Prof_Frink> I'd be shot if I described that as "realistic spelling".
19:05:59  <Dreamxtreme> lol 3rd class Eddi|zuHause
19:06:02  <CraKinShOt> haha lol
19:06:50  <Eddi|zuHause> well... it has ... certain ... cultural ... connotations...
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19:07:14  <Dreamxtreme> ive never heard of 3rd class on trains
19:07:31  <Dreamxtreme> or do you mean planes
19:07:38  <Eddi|zuHause> 3rd and 4th class did exist
19:07:53  <Dreamxtreme> ooooo yes it does
19:08:00  <Dreamxtreme> in Thailand
19:08:12  <Dreamxtreme> and yes they do share with cattle
19:08:36  <Prof_Frink> I think Eddi|zuHause was thinking more european.
19:10:17  <CraKinShOt> hmm, is train speed handled seperatly outside TrainController?
19:10:26  <Eddi|zuHause> the decision to use only 2 classes is fairly recent (railway-developmentally-speaking)
19:10:49  <Eddi|zuHause> CraKinShOt: something about "GetTrainAcceleration" or so
19:11:04  <CraKinShOt> cheers
19:11:26  <CraKinShOt> well its a bit wierd. there is one check in TrainController function for a red signal
19:11:40  <CraKinShOt> if you completely comment that out, in theory the trains should run red signals
19:11:53  <CraKinShOt> but a) they stop and then carry on with normal signals
19:11:59  <Dreamxtreme> when will it be ready the new features
19:12:05  <Dreamxtreme> 24hours time ?
19:12:06  <CraKinShOt> and b) they stop completely at pbs signals
19:12:33  <Eddi|zuHause>
19:13:14  <Eddi|zuHause> CraKinShOt: there's an additional "emergency stop" somewhere
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19:21:45  <CraKinShOt> ahh... it considers a red signal as "end of line"
19:22:30  <CraKinShOt> calls TrainApproachingLineEnd
19:22:34  <CraKinShOt> which puts on the breaks
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19:25:31  * CraKinShOt go go gadget rewrite
19:26:50  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... cool... in GB, they only had a "1st" and "3rd" class after 1910 :p
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19:29:50  <Dreamxtreme> :O
19:33:54  <CraKinShOt> the horror
19:36:00  <CraKinShOt> I'm thinking once you have deceleration you can put in a variable delay for the driver response. (difficulty option)
19:36:21  <CraKinShOt> so random events where a train passes red by accident
19:36:38  <CraKinShOt> then you can have annual SPAD report graphs... XD
19:36:46  <CraKinShOt> (they have those in real life you know)
19:37:11  * CraKinShOt is laughing
19:38:21  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... news_gui.cpp:657:* @see NewsSubype <--- looks like typo
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19:40:58  * Alberth also thinks it looks like a typo
19:41:38  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: rubidium * r17623 /trunk/src/station_gui.cpp: -Codechange: don't update the station's joiner scrollbar count in the drawing code
19:47:19  <Ammler> someone here ever saw something like that?
19:48:18  <Eddi|zuHause> yes. 10 minutes ago in #opensuse-de :p
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19:58:08  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: alberth * r17624 /trunk/src/depot_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Swap entries in _resize_cap[][] so the code does what the docs say.
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20:08:27  <Eddi|zuHause> gnah... the whole of headway_gui.cpp must also be updated to the left/right thingie...
20:09:00  <Rubidium> oh, that'll keep you busy :)
20:10:52  <Eddi|zuHause> and wtf is "SetVScrollCount"?
20:11:31  <Eddi|zuHause> it doesn't even seem to get a scrollbar as parameter...
20:11:32  <Rubidium> the amount of 'elements' in the vertical scroll bar
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20:12:19  <Alberth> scrollbar data is part of the Window struct
20:13:07  <Eddi|zuHause> that does not sound like the most extensible idea :p
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20:14:33  <Rubidium> that's why there (was) a SetVScroll2Count
20:15:11  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: rubidium * r17625 /trunk/src/station_gui.cpp: -Codechange: make a nested window of the station joiner
20:16:05  <Alberth> and a hscrollbar :p
20:17:26  <chupa> hi everybody. does anyone know a way to diable the local authority?
20:17:57  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: but I would not be surprised if this data layout existed from the original source.
20:18:06  <Rubidium> yes
20:19:09  <Rubidium> Alberth: the 2 vertical scroll bars didn't exist yet
20:19:16  <Rubidium> only one existed
20:19:27  <Rubidium> not sure about the horizontal one though
20:20:49  <Eddi|zuHause> i do remember bjarni saying he had to add support for a secondary scroll bar for the autoreplace gui
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20:24:02  <Eddi|zuHause> this->vscroll.SetCount(this->vehicles.Length()); <-- i figure this is the correct replacement
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20:26:06  <Rubidium> likely
20:27:38  <Eddi|zuHause> most of these things are fairly easy to figure out, if you know to navigate the source
20:27:44  <Eddi|zuHause> but it's very tedious
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20:31:11  <Alberth> do a few more and you'll get good at them :)
20:31:35  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm never ever going to get good in GUI work :p
20:32:25  <Rubidium> there're plenty of non-GUI bugs you can work on :)
20:32:28  <Eddi|zuHause> "warning: suggest a space before ';' or explicit braces around empty body in 'for' statement" <- what's the code style for this?
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20:32:38  <Rubidium> {}
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20:48:43  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: alberth * r17626 /trunk/src/depot_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Use Dimension structs instead of array of length 2 for storing horizontal/vertical information.
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21:01:53  <Belugas> time to go, bye bye
21:04:49  <SmatZ> good night, Belugas
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21:17:07  <andythenorth> wonder if Crossover is a valid solution for mac Openttd users?
21:17:33  <andythenorth> One way to find out...I'll try this weekend
21:19:14  <Prof_Frink> Or ask the codeweavers employee.
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21:22:09  <Ammler> openttd works nicely with wine
21:25:00  <Eddi|zuHause> but linux wine != osx wine
21:26:06  <CraKinShOt> don't like that TrainApproachingLineEnd() slows the train down
21:26:13  <Rubidium> cheese works nicely with wine too ;)
21:26:46  * Prof_Frink directs the poking stick at orudge
21:27:18  <CraKinShOt> seems better to move the train control directly into the TrainController()
21:29:02  <Eddi|zuHause> CraKinShOt: as far as i understood you, TrainApproacchingLineEnd is just missing a check for force_proceed?
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21:29:56  <CraKinShOt> hmm, well as a function its returning whether the train is approaching the end of the line
21:30:25  <CraKinShOt> but rather than have the calling function then perform reversing/slow down, its done in this function
21:31:18  <CraKinShOt> to alter the handling of how the train moves with signals, at least with the way it is at the moment, I'd have to edit 2 functions with exactly the same thing
21:31:29  <CraKinShOt> rather than just one function TrainController()
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21:31:57  <CraKinShOt> I'll check the dependencies on this function... maybe I'm missing something as to why its done this way
21:33:09  <Eddi|zuHause> two possible explanations: a) "it has been like this from r1", b) "keep the emergency stop separate from the acceleration model"
21:33:31  <CraKinShOt> probably from the first release
21:33:51  <CraKinShOt> essentially, this *Should* be in the function that deals with how the train moves
21:34:27  <CraKinShOt> for instance, in the train controller if you comment out the aspect that deals with red signals, it should simply ignore signals completely
21:35:00  <CraKinShOt> but because this other function has a seperate check for signals as well, the train stops, then starts up again
21:35:29  <CraKinShOt> better to remove this out and put in the emergency stop in the actual function that is supposed to deal with the case
21:37:20  <CraKinShOt> should at least make alteration of the train deceleration much cleaner
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21:40:30  <Eddi|zuHause> well, go ahead ;)
21:40:45  <CraKinShOt> hmmm not actually that clear cut
21:41:10  <CraKinShOt> the original signals (back facing) will block the track and its technically the end of the line
21:41:14  <CraKinShOt> :/
21:42:15  <CraKinShOt> I know, change the signal test so that if its a back facing signal it'll think its the end of the line
21:42:36  <CraKinShOt> but ignores red signals
21:42:51  <CraKinShOt> then have the slowdown explicitly handled by the train controller
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21:46:07  <CraKinShOt> hehe, comment 1 line and its done
21:46:55  <CraKinShOt> well I got the trains to run red signals, thats a start. :D
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22:16:10  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: yexo * r17627 /trunk/src/ai/api/ai_info_docs.hpp: -Document [FS#3216]: The remaining functions in info.nut
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22:21:14  <Eddi|zuHause> ahaa... this is way easier when i have the GUI open to look at ;)
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22:33:23  <Fire> hello
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22:33:41  <Fire> hello
22:34:08  <CraKinShOt> hi
22:35:43  <Rubidium> 01189998819991197253 ;)
22:36:47  <Fire> how is OTTD multiplayer
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22:42:39  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: old ;)
22:43:30  <Rubidium> ofcourse it is
22:43:46  <Eddi|zuHause> it was discussed in this channel even
22:44:16  <Eddi|zuHause> and the sad thing is, i always get one digit wrong :(
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22:45:21  <Eddi|zuHause> because in the beginning it's 118 and later it's 119, i always think of an 8 instead of a 9
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22:47:43  <glx> hmm isn't that the phone number ?
22:48:32  <Dreamxtreme> lol no
22:48:41  <Dreamxtreme> its a old london code
22:48:45  <Dreamxtreme> 0118
22:51:09  <Eddi|zuHause> glx: yes, it's a phone number ;)
22:51:38  <glx> ok my memory works :)
22:55:32  <CraKinShOt> does the pathfinder try to find a path on every tile?
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22:56:39  <Eddi|zuHause> no, on every junction
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23:07:06  <CraKinShOt> don't think its practical to do deceleration. It needs the speed restrictions to be propagated through the signals.
23:07:52  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, each signal must tell the previous signal its speed limit
23:08:21  <CraKinShOt> when you get to a junction... ALL the signals leading to the junction would put on a speed limit
23:08:52  <CraKinShOt> a simple way of doing it is in the pathfinder
23:09:07  <CraKinShOt> it already looks up the paths
23:09:46  <CraKinShOt> once you've found the best path you update the signals on it, at least for the first few signals
23:10:11  <CraKinShOt> nothing to do with reservation, just signal reservation
23:10:18  <CraKinShOt> *restriction
23:10:33  <Eddi|zuHause> well, i think you should reserve a path
23:11:25  <Eddi|zuHause> so on a regular straight rail you'd reserve two signals ahead, to make sure the next block is free and can be passed with max speed
23:11:32  <Eddi|zuHause> if reservation fails, slow down
23:12:00  <CraKinShOt> yeah thats the ideal way
23:12:05  <Eddi|zuHause> that's why i pointed you to michi_cc's patch, because it already does the ahead reservation
23:12:12  <Eddi|zuHause> it misses the slowing down part
23:12:47  <CraKinShOt> yeah, well the Long Reserve PBS does the same
23:13:01  <CraKinShOt> it all comes down to which is getting in trunk. ;)
23:13:55  <Eddi|zuHause> that patch is not going near trunk anytime soon
23:14:23  <CraKinShOt> not much point in me reinventing the wheel and doing my own version
23:14:47  <CraKinShOt> unless the exisint LR PBS was really badly done.
23:15:24  <Eddi|zuHause> so... i have one big file left... timetable_gui.cpp
23:23:32  <CraKinShOt> LR PBS seems clean
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23:24:36  <CraKinShOt> I posted on that topic but no one replied.
23:25:15  <CraKinShOt> essentially you'd only reserve the safe-breaking distance
23:25:27  <Sacro> moving block?
23:25:33  <Sacro> that'd be nice
23:26:32  <CraKinShOt> Does the train cache the pathfinder results?
23:26:35  <CraKinShOt> nodes, etc?
23:26:51  <CraKinShOt> all I see here is it gives a direction
23:30:34  <CraKinShOt> if its cached, can't see why you can't have Long Reserve PBS.
23:32:35  <Eddi|zuHause> no, the train only gets the direction on exactly this tile
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23:33:42  <CraKinShOt> Well I see you have a 'guess' result. in that case, you need to recompute the path
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23:34:29  <CraKinShOt> but if you have a definiate path, then cache the nodes.
23:34:48  <CraKinShOt> then when you pass into a new signal segment, try to reserve the next segment in the path
23:35:06  <CraKinShOt> if that segment is locked, ditch the cache
23:35:58  <Eddi|zuHause> well, that is exactly what the path reservation already does
23:36:51  <CraKinShOt> ah right, a good way of doing it. hehe.
23:38:04  <CraKinShOt> Wasn't the main grip with long reservations the fact it could block other trains from leaving in certain situations?
23:39:49  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't see why that is a problem
23:45:13  <CraKinShOt> No I don't either actually, its got a special signal that forbids long reservations
23:45:38  <CraKinShOt> so that would be used for the station home. i.e. I train has to stop the signal first and try to reserve from that point
23:46:08  <CraKinShOt> hmm bed time I think
23:46:45  <CraKinShOt> I really dislike the little symbols on all these signal types
23:47:20  <CraKinShOt> have you seen the restricted signals and programable signals in TTDPatch?
23:47:33  <Eddi|zuHause> no
23:48:50  <CraKinShOt>
23:50:27  <CraKinShOt> should just have an overlay or something, with is transparent unless you're editting signals
23:50:39  <CraKinShOt> meh, personal taste.
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