Log for #openttd on 27th September 2009:
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00:41:25  <BOP_Fire> hello
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00:42:30  <BOP_Fire> anyone here
00:42:58  <Victoria> Hello
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08:29:01  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: alberth * r17652 /trunk/src/depot_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Merging/renaming the depot block-size functions.
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08:31:50  <Terkhen> good morning
08:32:57  <Alberth> good morning
08:33:36  <welshdragon> where can i get the nightly r17496?
08:34:01  <welshdragon> (also good morning Terkhen, Alberth)
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08:36:11  <Alberth> oh, that is a 150 revisions back isn't it?
08:36:15  <Alberth> not any more
08:36:43  <Alberth> we don't keep old nightlies. You can of course build one from the source
08:37:02  <Rubidium> we only trash > 2-3 month old nightlies
08:37:12  <welshdragon> hmm
08:37:19  <Rubidium> 150 revisions doesn't sound like 2-3 months
08:37:19  <welshdragon> cures you openttdcoop
08:37:27  <welshdragon> *curse
08:38:03  <welshdragon> it was 2 weeks ago
08:38:31  <Alberth> thanks for mentioning that Rubidium.  would be the link
08:40:16  <Rubidium> <- or something like that
08:41:59  <Rubidium> works even without en/
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08:49:56  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: alberth * r17653 /trunk/src/depot_gui.cpp: -Fix (r17649): Widgets at the bottom button bar of the depot window should adapt to differences in height.
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08:53:52  <Zetum> Hi
08:54:51  <Zetum> I need some help.
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08:56:58  <welshdragon> Zetum: just ask
08:57:55  <Zetum> My second train won't leave the depot without signals.
08:58:35  <welshdragon> you need signals then
08:59:21  <Zetum> What if I want my trains to be able to collide.
08:59:30  <welshdragon> Zetum: that's just silly
08:59:39  <welshdragon> and not the point of the game
09:00:01  <Zetum> But then I'll know really well if I made something wrong
09:00:20  <welshdragon> Zetum: if your trains don't move then something's wrong
09:00:29  <welshdragon> i suggest you read
09:01:04  <welshdragon> or, even better:
09:01:09  <Alberth> Zetum: without signals you have no control at all over trains, they will always collide, it is then just a matter of time.
09:01:09  <welshdragon> the whole manual :)
09:01:49  <welshdragon> Alberth: if the trains won't leave the depot then such a thing will never happen
09:01:50  <Zetum> I have read that but I want them to be able to collide. Then I will have to pay for my mistakes.
09:01:54  <Alberth> Zetum: 'wrong' usually means that a train has to wait for another train. Minimizing that is difficult enough
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09:02:15  <welshdragon> Zetum: that is not the point of the game
09:02:24  <welshdragon> you try to avoid crashhing
09:02:50  <welshdragon> if a train stops and is 'waiting a free path' then you know something is wrong
09:03:24  <welshdragon> if your trains don't leave the depot and are 'waiting a free path' then you know something is wrong
09:03:41  <Alberth> welshdragon: you can do trickery to persuade them.  :p
09:04:00  <Zetum> The point is to avoid the trains crashing and if they won't crash that's an automatic win.
09:04:06  <welshdragon> Alberth: i don't encourage SPAD's
09:04:09  <Alberth> Zetum: without signals they will always collide given enough time, no matter what you do
09:04:50  <welshdragon> Zetum: that is not something that is usually done in openttd
09:05:22  <Alberth> Zetum: the point is to transport as many goods as you can.
09:05:42  <Alberth> You don't put lives at stake by crashing trains
09:05:51  <welshdragon> if you want destruction, play another game
09:06:01  <CraKinShOt> Or wait for me to code it
09:06:05  <CraKinShOt> :D
09:06:10  <Zetum> Alberth: No, because the game doesn't allow more than one train a track section at a time.
09:06:38  * Alberth thinks that is a good thing
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09:07:01  <welshdragon> CraKinShOt: you worry me
09:07:10  <CraKinShOt>
09:07:17  <Zetum> In earlier versions of the game the trains would crash without signals.
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09:07:33  <CraKinShOt> but I need the multi-aspect signals first before I can do it
09:07:43  <CraKinShOt> so thats what I'm focusing on
09:07:46  <Alberth> Zetum: nope, even the original OTTD already refused to have two trains at one track
09:08:07  <Alberth> oh, I meant TTD
09:09:23  <Guest3881> HI. Is it possible to covert a saved multiplayer game in a single player game, so I can overtake the opponents?
09:09:50  <welshdragon> Guest3881: just load it
09:10:02  <Zetum> I know my trains has crashed before. In version 0.5 or something.
09:10:29  <welshdragon> anyway, I am off sailing
09:10:52  <welshdragon> (on a boat)
09:11:29  <Guest3881> welshdragon: no, he I simply load it, I can only buy 75% from a company
09:11:38  <Alberth> Zetum: yes, if you mess up really badly, they will crash
09:12:04  <Zetum> And then I'll need to pay for my mistakes
09:13:47  <Alberth> you are never ever allowed to play OpenTTD again
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09:14:34  <CraKinShOt> I'm thinking a tribunal, if you have too many crashes you're put in jail for a year
09:14:38  <CraKinShOt> XD
09:16:33  <Zetum> That would be fun.
09:16:44  <Zetum> And realistic.
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09:42:26  <hfox> On the topic of collisions:
09:42:38  <hfox> Also: I'm sitting right next to Zetum.
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09:57:55  <CraKinShOt> its not imposible for trains to crash, it can happen if you're playing with the signals with trains on the line
09:58:15  <CraKinShOt> but generally it isn't going to happen unless you allow the trains the pass red signals
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10:14:17  <hfox> It just feel more logical if the trains would collide if there are no signals to stop them from doing it.
10:18:43  <CraKinShOt> well thats not entirely true.
10:19:34  <CraKinShOt> The default for a train is not to move
10:19:56  <CraKinShOt> then they are given indicators on how fast they can travel
10:20:40  <CraKinShOt> those are dependent on the track (the block) to be clear
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10:21:31  <CraKinShOt> then trains are allowed to go faster because 2 (or more) blocks are clear
10:22:31  <camorup> hi
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10:22:48  <CraKinShOt> hello
10:23:20  <camorup> i have a question:
10:23:28  <camorup> i start a game in 1920
10:23:38  <camorup> and the "Show building tools when no suitable vehicles are available" option is enabled
10:23:48  <camorup> but i can't build railways
10:24:08  <camorup> it's openttd 0.7.2
10:24:38  <camorup> why can't i build railways?
10:25:10  <camorup> * the build menu is disabled
10:26:15  <CraKinShOt> hmm, looks like that is correct
10:26:55  <CraKinShOt> might be a bug
10:28:00  <CraKinShOt> you can get around it by using UK Renewal Train Set GRF
10:28:08  <Alberth> camorup: I still have trouble understanding why one would want to do this, can you explain?
10:28:28  <Alberth> I can confirm it for trunk, no idea why this happens however
10:29:02  <Rubidium> got to love settings with unclear descriptions
10:29:36  <Alberth> or got to love weird settings :)
10:29:46  <Rubidium> IIRC it was meant to disable the building tools when the number of vehicles you could build of a given type was 0
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10:31:38  <camorup> well, i could build some infrastructure already
10:32:11  <Rubidium> it probably got broken some time later on and you're the first to notice it, which shows how often it is actually used
10:32:12  <camorup> and when the trains get available i can use them immediately
10:32:54  <camorup> hmm, it's not that important
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10:42:13  <camorup> thanks
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10:44:37  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: rubidium * r17654 /trunk/src/town_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#3220] (r17612): the edit box of the town fund window wasn't updated properly (based on patch of Terkhen)
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13:00:03  <[VK]> hi only a question: Do I need the original Transport Tycoon to Install OTTD?
13:01:03  <Victoria> Nope!
13:02:05  <Victoria> Actually, I'm dead wrong.
13:02:10  <Alberth> yep, the data files are used, which you must own
13:02:14  <Victoria> That's what I get for talking to people first thing in the morning.
13:02:20  <Victoria>
13:03:05  <[VK]> ok thanks for the link
13:03:54  * Alberth wonders how obvious a link must be in order to get people to find it themselves
13:04:39  <Victoria> There is this as a workaround, which I believe is what I did.
13:05:18  <[VK]> I found the Wiki, but there I havent found something about installation.
13:05:31  <[VK]> So I click on the IRC ...
13:06:35  <Alberth> OpenGFX is not yet completed. Also you don't have sound then, since OpenSFX is not complete either.
13:07:43  <glx> OpenSFX works in nightlies only
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13:28:50  <Eddi|zuHause> to answer the original question, the INSTALLATION does not require any TTD files
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13:31:12  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... these tunnel entrances are difficult to put up... you cannot place them in curves (they are not wide enough), and you need catenary (which i don't have) or the electric vehicles won't fit with the pantograph up
13:33:07  <Eddi|zuHause> i think i'll live without then...
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13:39:53  <glx> Eddi|zuHause: install a fake catenary in the tunnel
13:40:20  <glx> just something that can apply a force on the panto
13:41:09  * _ln suspects Eddi is not talking about OpenTTD
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13:51:38  * Ammler suspects, glx neither
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14:55:35  <sulai> hi there
14:56:18  <sulai> I was said to me using float wasn't multiplayer safe
14:56:20  <sulai>
14:56:22  <sulai> Is that true? If yes, what should I use instead? double?
14:56:55  <Coco-Banana-Man> glx: <--- something like that?
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14:58:48  <Alberth> sulai: integers
14:59:35  <Alberth> sulai: different CPU architectures have different rounding policies, so calculations have different answers at different machines.
15:00:42  <sulai> Alberth thanks for explaining :)
15:00:44  <sulai> too bad there is no pow() for integers...
15:01:40  <Alberth> sulai: for integer powers, multiply with itself a few times
15:03:36  <sulai> I'm just pleased with the support in here ^^
15:05:29  <Eddi|zuHause> sulai: ever heard of the "square and muliply" algorithm?
15:07:08  <sulai> This must be something remarkable ;)
15:07:24  <Eddi|zuHause> sulai: if you take the binary representation of the exponent, for each bit you square the input, and if the bit is 1, you multiply it again
15:09:06  <Eddi|zuHause> so if you want to calculate 15^13, you take the bit representation of 13, which is 1101
15:09:24  <Eddi|zuHause> you start with the result 1, and take the highest digit of the exponent
15:09:54  <Eddi|zuHause> you square the current result, and because the bit is set, you multiply with the base, so 1*2*15=15
15:10:58  <Eddi|zuHause> next digit is also set, so you square the result and multiply again, 15^2*15 = 3375
15:11:41  <Eddi|zuHause> next digit is not set, so you only square, 3375^2 = 11390625
15:12:02  <Eddi|zuHause> next digit is set, so you square and multiply, 11390625^2*15 = ...
15:13:01  <Eddi|zuHause> simple recursive function, runtime is O(log(n)), where n is the exponent
15:15:14  <sulai> sounds like it won't break multiplayer synchronisation
15:15:33  <Alberth> as long as the integer does not overflow :)
15:16:03  <sulai> as long as integer has the same bit size on every machine
15:16:07  <Eddi|zuHause> sqam(base, ext) { if (ext==0) return 1; result=sqam(base, ext >> 1); result*=result; if (ext & 1) result*=base; return result; }
15:16:27  <Eddi|zuHause> s/ext/exp/
15:16:31  <Eddi|zuHause> g
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15:18:18  <Alberth> sulai: if 'exp' is a constant, you can write a sequence of multiplications
15:19:00  <Alberth> which is basically one case of the general solution of Eddi|zuHause
15:19:01  <sulai> Alberth, Eddi, thank you very much for support! My problem is solved. =)
15:19:27  <Eddi|zuHause> sulai: i don't know what you're trying to do, but most likely your exponents have to be small, otherwise it overflows very fast
15:19:55  <sulai> Eddi: this sounds good, how about adding int64 pow(int, int) to ottd? ;)
15:20:26  <Alberth> we probably don't need it. Why do you need it?
15:20:56  <Eddi|zuHause> sulai: if you need it, you can implement it yourself...
15:21:14  <Eddi|zuHause> it's one of the most basic algorithms you learn in computer science...
15:21:54  <Alberth> sulai: we do have plenty routines for doing 2^x, which a computer can do very fast
15:23:40  <Eddi|zuHause> sulai: and if you want to be remotely overflow safe, you'd need at least "int256 pow(int32, int8)"
15:24:20  <Eddi|zuHause> (as 32*8 = 256)
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15:25:31  <sulai> Yeah, this is cool stuff :)
15:25:50  <Eddi|zuHause> and i still don't know what you're trying to do
15:28:56  <sulai> As I said a while ago, I very much thank you for your support. My problem is solved.
15:29:17  <sulai> But thanks for all that interesting input
15:29:36  <sulai> May I ask somebody for a code review?
15:30:12  <sulai> I'd like some experienced programmer to do a quick review of my patch
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15:40:44  <Eddi|zuHause> have you checked if this function is also called when simply building a roadstop?
15:41:56  <sulai> This patch only affects roads that have 2 connected roads as neighbour
15:42:40  <sulai> but good hint, eddi: I need to check deleting of road-stop-roads
15:42:54  <Eddi|zuHause> you may place drive through road stops on town owned roads
15:43:01  <Eddi|zuHause> not sure if that changes the owner
15:43:16  <sulai> hm good thought
15:43:19  <glx> doesn't change the road owner IIRC
15:43:45  <sulai> I hope it doesn't delete any road in the process of building the road stop
15:44:21  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know either, that's why i asked if you checked that ;)
15:45:02  <Eddi|zuHause> "UINT_MAX == bypass_length" <<- imho these checks are backwards...
15:45:31  <Eddi|zuHause> you generally check "variable == value"
15:45:37  <sulai> hm it's kind of exception handling
15:46:01  <sulai> ah okay this is true
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15:53:16  <Eddi|zuHause> +	return CommandCost(EXPENSES_CONSTRUCTION, (GetTunnelBridgeLength(tile, endtile) + 2) * _price.clear_bridge
15:53:17  <Eddi|zuHause> +			+ bypass_length*bypass_length*bypass_length * _price.clear_bridge);
15:53:25  <Eddi|zuHause> could use some distributivity
15:53:38  <Eddi|zuHause> and you don't think n^3 might be a little extreme?
15:56:04  <sulai> eddi: thanks for the tip @road stops -- they cause an assertion
15:56:38  <Eddi|zuHause> /* determine src and dest tile of the bypass */ <- this looks fishy, but i can't tell why...
15:57:16  <sulai> What do you mean by "distributivity"?
15:57:33  <Eddi|zuHause> a*c+b*c = (a+b)*c
15:58:39  <Eddi|zuHause> that's called the law of distributivity
15:58:54  <Eddi|zuHause> (my translation might be slightly off)
15:59:22  <Alberth> of '*' over '+'
16:00:14  <sulai> n^3 is a lot of money, but since money doesn't matter at some point of the game I think it's okay. 2x2 and 3x3 grid towns alow removal of roads for 20k-30k -- long bridges may cost up to 2 million
16:00:25  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, there exist some for other operators, too. '&&' and '||', and more funnily '||' over '&&' ;)
16:01:30  <Eddi|zuHause> sulai: how does your "detour" calculation work on drag-and-drop removal? if i have a "highway" of 200 tiles length, and want to remove one full lane, the detour is 2 tiles, not 400 tiles
16:01:48  <Eddi|zuHause> length of detour - length of removed road
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16:03:37  <Eddi|zuHause> and what if you remove more than two trackbits? i.e. a road crossing?
16:04:15  <Eddi|zuHause> if the town had an 8-shape, those would partition it
16:06:24  <Eddi|zuHause> and you can abuse the detour calculation by building a short detour, remove the road, then remove the detour again
16:07:11  <Eddi|zuHause> the idea is neat, but i can't see the concept working well
16:07:40  <sulai> @crossings: real crossings (that have more than 2 connected neighbor roads) are not allowed to delete by the town authority. Only roads with 2 neighbours are allowed to delete if money and rating are sufficient
16:08:07  <sulai> but you may reduce any road construction to a 2-neighbor-road
16:08:31  <sulai> while only being able to delete one- and two-neighbor-roads
16:08:32  <Eddi|zuHause> really? i have never noticed that it refuses those
16:08:41  <Rubidium> sulai: does it count non-town-owned roads too? Cause if it does one can easily remove all roads of a town with your patch
16:09:32  <sulai> eddi: this is added by the patch -- normal behavior is to either only allow one-neighbour-roads to delete; or to delete any road if the patch setting is set
16:10:28  <sulai> Rubidium: only deletion of town owned roads is charged, but for bypassing, any road is counted -- that way the player may provide a bypass
16:11:49  <Rubidium> and as such the user may remove all roads
16:12:10  <Eddi|zuHause> it would make more sense to enforce the detour-restriction for removing any roads, even if they are yours
16:12:22  <sulai> >> and you can abuse the detour calculation by building a short detour, remove the road, then remove the detour again
16:12:24  <sulai> this is possible. The patch *encourages* the player to consider bypasses. It does not - and could not - enforce it.
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16:13:44  *** mode/#openttd [+v Belugas] by ChanServ
16:13:47  *** mode/#openttd [+v Rubidium] by ChanServ
16:14:00  <Rubidium> hmm, was I too critical of his patch?
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16:14:27  <sulai> sorry i was disconnected
16:14:43  <Eddi|zuHause> oh... it's past 18, i should check the estimates...
16:15:25  <sulai> >> player may delete all roads
16:15:26  <Alberth> sulai: does the patch prohibit houses from getting disconnected from the road?
16:15:27  <sulai> yes, this is how it should be. But it's much harder to do that than it is with the original behavior
16:16:00  <sulai> Alberth: No changes there.
16:17:10  <sulai> is there some automatic log of this channel? ;)
16:17:27  <sulai> I just lost all your valuable comments
16:18:23  <Alberth> sulai:
16:18:29  <sulai> thx
16:18:56  <Alberth> although '50' may not be enough :)
16:23:10  <Grelouk> Is there a way to "reverse" signals ? =)
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16:25:18  <sulai> >> it would make more sense to enforce the detour-restriction for removing any roads, even if they are yours
16:25:20  <sulai> This is worth a try. Since roads may be used by any player, they are shared property.
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16:26:51  <Rubidium> you probably also need to account for one way (and none way) roads
16:27:13  <Rubidium> and if you intend to restrict on player roads also make sure one way roads don't make places unreachable and such
16:27:17  <sulai> I think I covered one way roads
16:28:00  <sulai> ... since I check the bypass in both directions
16:28:07  <andythenorth> evening
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16:34:10  <sulai> Hm well I try to compile all your valuable comments and try to put some additional information on the concept into the forum. Thanks Rubidium, Alberth, Eddi.
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17:45:24  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: translators * r17655 /trunk/src/lang/ (english_US.txt portuguese.txt):
17:45:24  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:24  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: english_US - 38 changes by agenthh
17:45:24  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: portuguese - 9 changes by SupSuper
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18:36:19  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: rubidium * r17656 /trunk/src/osk_gui.cpp: -Change: typo in function name. Also document the parameter (Terkhen)
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18:57:42  <Rubidium> DaleStan: can you take a look at and tell me what you think TTDP will change (if it is going to change anything)? mb also said that TTDP's behaviour changed since some 2.5 beta, do you have any idea when/what changed (revision)?
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19:24:28  <CraKinShOt> adding sprites seems a bit confusing
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19:32:01  <Eddi|zuHause> by newgrf or by openttd.grf?
19:32:53  <Rubidium> openttd.grf is so... 0.5
19:34:27  <Rubidium> (or 2007)
19:36:08  <CraKinShOt> I wasn't sure which way
19:36:19  <CraKinShOt> I'm just adding a few signals
19:36:43  <CraKinShOt> probably easier to simply have a newgrf
19:37:18  <CraKinShOt> but I have no idea what all the offsets are in tables/sprites.h
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19:46:01  <Eddi|zuHause> openttd contains graphics for 8 signal types
19:46:32  <Eddi|zuHause> which can be changed by newgrf, that is either an action 5 or an action A, not sure...
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20:03:59  <CraKinShOt> hmm
20:04:18  <CraKinShOt> well I can deal with that later, and use defaults for the time being
20:04:33  <CraKinShOt> finally managed to merge the LR PBS into the trunk
20:04:45  <CraKinShOt> and remove the extra signal type it used
20:04:51  *** Alberth [] has left #openttd []
20:07:24  <CraKinShOt> need to work on a window GUI for editing signals now.
20:07:29  <CraKinShOt> so learning that
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20:23:07  <CraKinShOt> hmm, found a bug I think
20:23:39  <CraKinShOt> set the road side to left then start a game.
20:23:53  <CraKinShOt> semiphore signals are then UK type
20:24:06  <CraKinShOt> with the signal toolbar open move it around
20:24:26  <CraKinShOt> should leave loads of red dots
20:24:34  <CraKinShOt> at least in debug mode
20:26:12  <CraKinShOt> same with 0.72, the first semiphore signal should be unselected, so that the sprite overlaps the window
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20:27:54  <glx> CraKinShOt: unfixable
20:29:04  <glx> or not easy I think
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20:32:04  <CraKinShOt> make the buttons wider? :)
20:32:55  <CraKinShOt> then again those semaphores are way over to the left of each button
20:34:14  <glx> the solution is don't change signal side :)
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20:39:29  <Eddi|zuHause> always these weird english people having stuff on the wrong side
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21:02:11  <CraKinShOt> hu, try to add a button and it screws up
21:02:49  <CraKinShOt> I click on one button and a different one goes down
21:04:26  <Eddi|zuHause> then you did it the wrong way
21:06:01  <CraKinShOt> hmm, well I just copied another button and made a new one with different name
21:06:11  <CraKinShOt> its in the widgets
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21:13:33  <CraKinShOt> nm fixed
21:25:23  <CraKinShOt> hmm, thats wierd
21:31:03  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, you are.
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21:42:18  <CraKinShOt> well now that I've put in references to m2 if signalex is used, the help tile look up is screwing up
21:48:13  <Eddi|zuHause> then you missed a map accessor?
21:49:47  <CraKinShOt> hmm, don't think so, perhaps. Wierd, I think the misc_gui.cpp has changed. Seems different way of getting the tile info now
21:50:39  <CraKinShOt> _tile_type_rail_procs
21:53:00  <Rubidium> different way from when?
21:53:18  <CraKinShOt> nope, absolutely every map accessor that uses m2 in rail_map.h has the update
21:53:38  <CraKinShOt> about a week ago
21:54:10  <Rubidium> nothing of importance to your patch has changed in the last week
21:55:05  <CraKinShOt> anything to LandInfoWindow?
21:55:07  <Rubidium> (to misc_gui.cpp)
21:55:18  <CraKinShOt> oh
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21:56:26  <Rubidium> unless 'last week' includes 2009-08-30
21:57:40  <CraKinShOt> never mind, I'm just being stupid...
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22:03:28  <Redirect_Left> Hi, quick question, are these ships sposed to have this much capacity?
22:03:31  <Redirect_Left> it Seems way over the top
22:03:32  <Redirect_Left>
22:03:54  <Redirect_Left> (Also bear in mind I had to cheat to get the oil field to produce that much, so it didn't take years to fill it)
22:04:13  <Redirect_Left> Using OpenTTD 0.7.3 RC2.
22:04:19  <Rubidium> probably due some NewGRF
22:04:24  <Redirect_Left> Hmm.
22:04:31  <Redirect_Left> I haven't got any that alter capacities of ships, though.
22:04:41  <PeterT> yes you do
22:04:46  <PeterT> GRF by bilbo
22:04:50  <PeterT> "Big Ships"
22:05:25  <Rubidium> well, it doesn't automagically get such capacities either
22:06:07  <Redirect_Left> hmm, actually apparantly I do have a GRF about ships
22:06:09  <Redirect_Left> didn't notice I had.
22:06:58  <PeterT> does it crash if you remove it in-game?
22:07:15  <Redirect_Left> No.
22:07:19  <Redirect_Left> I've just removed it ingame.
22:07:22  <Redirect_Left> the capacities are the same.
22:07:27  <Redirect_Left> I'll load a new game without it and see.
22:07:51  * Rubidium says something about big red warning that removing NewGRFs isn't quite supported
22:09:03  <PeterT> big? warning? red? what?
22:09:07  <PeterT> *click*
22:09:11  *** lobstar is now known as lobster
22:09:16  <Redirect_Left> Rubidium: Well, it's so far never crashed me :p
22:09:42  <Redirect_Left> hmm, I started a new one, and that big ship isn't even in the game.
22:09:52  <Redirect_Left> So it must have been added by that GRF.
22:10:28  <Redirect_Left> Hmm
22:10:38  <Redirect_Left> re-loaded the old save with it, GRF gone.
22:10:49  <Redirect_Left> The big ships are still in it, and have the 22 mil capacity.
22:10:53  <Redirect_Left> but any new ones have the 22K.
22:11:06  <Redirect_Left> Any idea how I can refresh the old ones with the GRF back to their defaults, Rubidium / PeterT?
22:11:40  <Rubidium> short answer: not
22:11:51  <Rubidium> long answer: you could, but... lots of preconditions
22:11:53  <Redirect_Left> Well, that implies there is a long answer where it is possible.
22:12:04  <PeterT> is the save game really worth ti?
22:12:06  <Redirect_Left> Well, I got the entire night to figure it out?
22:12:09  <Redirect_Left> PeterT: No, not really.
22:12:16  <Redirect_Left> I'm waiting to see how long it takes to do it.
22:12:23  <PeterT> Well, Rubidium doesn't
22:12:29  <Rubidium> you could mess with the code to update all vehicles with 22 mil capacity to 22k
22:12:43  <Redirect_Left> Eh.
22:12:45  <Redirect_Left> I'll skip that :p
22:12:52  <PeterT> or...
22:12:54  <PeterT> wait
22:13:06  <Redirect_Left> Also, why do ferries, no matter how distant apart you set them, they always end up side by side simultaneous after a while?
22:13:10  <Rubidium> autoreplace/autorenew *might* do the trick
22:13:10  <PeterT> you could auto-update the boats to a pax boat, then back to a regular oil boat
22:13:12  <Redirect_Left> (well, hovercraft currently)
22:13:27  <Redirect_Left> Rubidium: Ah, i'll try autoreplace, they're due replacing anyway
22:13:41  <PeterT> this is awkward, because rubidium can't see me
22:13:48  * Redirect_Left toggles go to depot with breakdowns off on and watches all his 200 buses suddenly rush.
22:13:49  <Rubidium> because 1 captain has a break, then the second enters and they leave simultaniously
22:13:52  * Sacro slaps himself for having an if (foo == true) ? true : false;
22:14:23  *** guru3 [~guru3@2002:51e8:81d7::1] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:14:37  <Redirect_Left> No but seriously Rubidium, is there a way to make them maintain their distances behind each other?
22:14:52  <Rubidium> time tables?
22:14:54  <Redirect_Left> It's rather annoying trying to keep proper flowing when they just end up tugging each other.
22:14:59  <Redirect_Left> Rubidium: how do i do that?
22:15:04  <Redirect_Left> Is that even in default OpenTTD 0.7.2?
22:15:12  <Xaroth> check the route table?
22:15:15  <Redirect_Left> Eh
22:15:17  <Redirect_Left> I dunno wtf that is
22:15:25  <Redirect_Left> I play without no tech stuff.
22:15:32  <Rubidium> if the orders window has a button 'timetable' it probably has
22:15:52  <Redirect_Left> ah, I see it.
22:15:54  <Redirect_Left> never noticed it
22:16:08  <Rubidium> oh, it's only there for 1.5 years (in stable releases)
22:16:13  <Xaroth> heh
22:16:21  <Xaroth> just not a commonly used feature
22:16:21  <Rubidium> damn... I shouldn't tell lies
22:16:31  <Rubidium> 1.5 years - about 3 days
22:17:18  <Redirect_Left> lol at time in days.
22:17:31  * Redirect_Left typed in 35 expecting it to be minutes.
22:17:36  <Redirect_Left> Comes up travelling for 35 days.
22:17:42  <Redirect_Left> Wow, they're gonna be pissed off passengers :p
22:17:57  <PeterT> they'll get over it
22:18:10  <Redirect_Left> Actually, that'd be an interesting feature.
22:18:18  <Redirect_Left> Having passengers that get annoyed over delays :p
22:18:27  <PeterT> is there such a thing as you paying the passengers for delays?
22:18:38  <PeterT> eg -
22:18:42  <Redirect_Left> Well, where I live, companies give refunds if they're stupidly late.
22:18:51  <PeterT> :)
22:19:00  <Redirect_Left> (the train, not the passengers being late)
22:22:05  <Redirect_Left> okay, last question.
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22:22:25  <Rubidium> answer: maybe
22:22:31  <Redirect_Left> If I have a station of 3 platforms, and I have 3 trains that collect GOODS, is there any way to limit how many of a type of train is in a station.
22:22:46  <glx> waypoints
22:22:48  <Redirect_Left> So the station won't get jammed with 3 goods trains, so no oil trains can actually go in and deliver stuff to turn into goods.
22:22:59  <Redirect_Left> Thus, jamming up the entire network.
22:23:03  <Xaroth> short answer: yes, long answer: it'll take QUITE a while :P
22:23:14  <Redirect_Left> Hmm.
22:23:18  <Redirect_Left> I don't quite follow?
22:23:28  <Redirect_Left> Sorry, I've only recently started making serious attempts to do networks.
22:23:32  <Redirect_Left> not stupid point to points :(
22:23:50  <glx> your network must direct gold trains to only 2 platforms
22:24:14  <Rubidium> make 2 entrances to the station. One of the entrances only reaches 2 of the platform, other all. Then direct the goods trains over the entrance that only reaches 2 platforms using a waypoint
22:25:11  <glx> another solution is to have drop stations and pickup stations
22:25:55  <Redirect_Left> hmm
22:26:01  <Redirect_Left> Drop / pickup seems easier.
22:26:16  <PeterT> anyone with Office 07?
22:26:38  <Redirect_Left> I mean currently, it doesn't overly bother me, as I currently have ships serving the oil refinery, so at some point, a ship will turn up with it's bugged 22 million and give it enough goods to last until the next pig flies over.
22:26:46  <Redirect_Left> But if I didn't have that, it'd be jammed up :|
22:27:07  <Xaroth> PeterT: hm?
22:27:21  <PeterT> Is there a way to view corrections?
22:27:29  <Xaroth> spell checker button?
22:27:33  <Rubidium> not really, because if there's a huge amount on the platform it decays quite rapidly
22:27:38  <Xaroth> or the autocorrections?
22:27:48  <PeterT> yes ^
22:27:50  <PeterT> how?
22:27:54  <PeterT> oh, wait
22:27:56  <Xaroth> autocorrections, dunno
22:27:56  <PeterT> sorry
22:28:03  <Xaroth> spell checker button.. er, somewhere in the menu
22:28:05  <Redirect_Left> Rubidium: Yeah, i've noticed that
22:28:13  <Redirect_Left> shame there isn't an ctrl+alt+c for that :p
22:28:17  <Redirect_Left> (hinthint :p)
22:28:27  <PeterT> if I sent a person a document, and they made corrections to it, which I need accept, how can I view that?
22:28:34  <Xaroth> o_O
22:28:38  <Xaroth> nfi
22:28:42  <Rubidium> well, write it yourself
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22:29:12  <Redirect_Left> Well, as much as I'd love to, no idea how i'd go about it :p
22:29:16  <Rubidium> don't see a debugging reason to add such a cheat
22:29:17  <PeterT> oh, found it
22:29:22  <Redirect_Left> wat
22:29:23  <PeterT> Under "Review"
22:29:29  <Redirect_Left> cheats where for debugging only?
22:29:31  <Redirect_Left> lolfail
22:29:31  <Xaroth> Rubidium: any chance there's a way to sort out the servers that fool the master server into listing them multiple times?
22:29:39  <Xaroth> there's a few that list themselves up to 5 times :/
22:29:43  <PeterT> which?
22:29:44  <Redirect_Left> Xaroth: wtf.
22:29:53  <PeterT> maybe there are 5 servers?
22:29:58  <Xaroth> there aren't
22:30:06  <Rubidium> most cheats were implemented for debugging purposes
22:30:11  <Xaroth> identical clients, identical responses, different ports
22:30:27  <Rubidium> although the master of all cheats just requires a debug build :)
22:31:06  <Rubidium> (getting money without the savegame saying you've cheated)
22:32:35  <Redirect_Left> [23:31] <~Woet> because openTTD does not clean it's memory cleanly
22:32:35  <Redirect_Left> :o
22:32:53  <Redirect_Left> (Regarding long-time OpenTTD servers that never get rebooted, and started bogging his servers CPU)
22:33:19  <Xaroth> PeterT: & .. same goes for &
22:33:45  <Redirect_Left> Xaroth: er
22:33:47  <Redirect_Left> different ports.
22:33:50  <Redirect_Left> They're different servers?
22:33:52  <Xaroth> no
22:34:07  <Rubidium> well... then let him show where OpenTTD leaks memory
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22:34:24  <Rubidium> and that it's not a problem of lots of <whatever>
22:34:31  <Xaroth> Redirect_Left: I can show the info with AutoTTD, and both show identical information, regarding clients, their money and whatnot
22:34:52  <Redirect_Left> hmm.
22:34:52  <Rubidium> like lots of cargopackets
22:35:05  <Redirect_Left> I just thought it was different servers, on the same server, using different IPs.
22:35:07  <Xaroth> I find it highly unlikely that with -that- many players that each and every one of them have the exact same number of vehicles, income and current funds
22:35:27  <Eddi|zuHause> <Redirect_Left> If I have a station of 3 platforms, and I have 3 trains that collect GOODS, is there any way to limit how many of a type of train is in a station. <-- example:,%2024.%20Jan%201951.png
22:35:28  <Rubidium> I know that OpenTTD 'leaks' a few bytes, but that's stuff we can't fix because it's actually leaks in libraries we use
22:35:59  <Redirect_Left> Eddi|zuHause: ah, i see.
22:36:02  <Redirect_Left> (I think)
22:36:02  <Xaroth> but I've also noticed that that person runs a 'custom' server, which he conveniently(sp?) doesn't want to share the code of
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22:36:55  <Eddi|zuHause> Redirect_Left: ore trains take the right entrance (from their view), steel trains the left entrance, the left entrance can't reach all platforms, so the ore trains always have at least one platform free
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22:37:56  <Redirect_Left> Ah, I see, yes.
22:38:02  <Redirect_Left> Thats a good idea indeed.
22:38:06  * Redirect_Left goes to try it
22:38:08  <Redirect_Left> thanks for the image!
22:39:33  <Redirect_Left> Also, surely with a bit of editing, Rubidium, one could edit the savegame to "forget" it cheated the money?
22:39:59  <Eddi|zuHause> that's way more tedious than just recompiling :p
22:40:37  * Rubidium is still amazed nobody has reported the 'crash OpenTTD deliberately' key combination
22:40:50  <Rubidium> probably because very few use debug builds
22:41:05  <glx> alt-0 ?
22:41:43  * Rubidium slaps glx; you spoiled their quest to find that key combination
22:42:02  <glx> there are other more useful combinations :)
22:42:05  <Redirect_Left> lol, why would someone want to deliberately crash OpenTTD? O_o
22:42:14  * glx
22:42:24  <Redirect_Left> Apart from maybe at work and need to edit it quicker? :p
22:42:30  <glx> useful to test crashlog stuff
22:43:35  <PeterT> strange that there's a button that tries to crash Openttd
22:43:45  <Xaroth> not strange at all
22:43:50  <Xaroth> same reason there's 'cheats'
22:43:54  <Xaroth> to 'test' things
22:44:19  <Xaroth> and from time to time that means forcefully messing things up :P
22:44:31  <Eddi|zuHause> [28.09.2009 00:42] [CTCP] Unbekannte CTCP-ACTION -Anfrage von glx an Kanal #openttd empfangen. <<--- what??
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22:44:40  <Xaroth> Eddi|zuHause: /me <no text>
22:44:54  <glx> hehe
22:45:51  <PeterT> Xaroth: is it #openDUNE or #openDUNEyexo?
22:46:49  <Xaroth> eh?
22:47:08  <Xaroth> Yexo is a person, so i highly doubt that..
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22:48:33  <Yexo> hmm?
22:49:26  <Xaroth> Yexo: i think he's that stalker you been complaining about :P
22:49:52  <Yexo> oh that one, yeah :p
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