Log for #openttd on 6th December 2009:
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07:22:13  <Ch0Hag> Can version mismatch be overridden in network games?
07:22:30  <Ch0Hag> eg. minor variations in svn/git no.
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08:10:59  <kieran491> Hi
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08:38:37  <Ch0Hag> Heh. Baby boom. "Passengers production at Oil Rig increases 50%"
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09:38:55  <SmatZ> Ch0Hag: ./configure --revision=r12345
09:39:12  <SmatZ> but don't complain if you desync or have any other peoblem :-p
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09:44:54  <Terkhen> good morning
09:46:01  <SmatZ> morning Terkhen
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10:05:18  <andythenorth> morning
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10:09:41  <andythenorth> question to the audience...
10:10:31  <andythenorth> when a passenger ship can be refitted to freight, should I use: 'number passengers = capacity in t' ?
10:10:41  <andythenorth> in favour: makes the buy menu easier
10:10:49  <andythenorth> against: it's a bit stupid
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10:22:29  <petern> andythenorth, just add a bit of 'extra text'?
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10:32:49  <andythenorth> petern: yep, I think that's the best route
10:32:59  <andythenorth> 1 pax != 1t
10:33:14  <andythenorth> unless obesity is really getting out of hand
10:34:55  <petern> :)
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10:54:43  <andythenorth> I've made all the ships in FISH about 2mph slower
10:55:05  <andythenorth> it's more realistic, looks better, and they should still make good profit on sane routes
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10:55:29  <andythenorth> Would slower ships put you off using them?
10:55:44  <andythenorth> (MB's new ships are way fast, but I kind of got used to them)
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11:05:21  <planetmaker> andythenorth: slow ships are fine IMO
11:05:50  <andythenorth> that's good :)
11:05:52  <planetmaker> though, of course, you could just use "realistic" speeds. They're < 50km/h anyway except for speed pax ferries
11:06:24  <planetmaker> and I never build for money anyway. As long as I make sufficient profit to sustain myself and build big - all is fine then
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11:08:20  <planetmaker> btw... I just looked at fish's code. It really could nicely use templates :-)
11:09:47  <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> unless obesity is really getting out of hand <-- when transporting passengers, the passenger is not the only thing that needs to be transported
11:09:54  <Eddi|zuHause> he may have luggage
11:10:09  <Alberth> and stacking is a bit awkward with passengers
11:10:13  <Eddi|zuHause> and all the facilities (toilets, food supply, etc.) must be transported as well
11:10:34  <planetmaker> true. 1t / PAX might not be the worst guess
11:11:38  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: interesting point.  But I think of ferries as per commuters....a briefcase, a coffee and a croissant != 1t :)
11:11:47  <Eddi|zuHause> well, it's probably still less than that
11:11:48  <andythenorth> if it's a car ferry, different story
11:11:58  <andythenorth> car = 1t
11:12:01  <andythenorth> 4 people per car
11:12:17  <andythenorth> 250kg per person?
11:12:25  <andythenorth> + the person
11:12:37  <Eddi|zuHause> but let's think of a car, a typical car weighs about 1,5t, and when fully loaded (with 5 people+luggage) up to 3,5t
11:13:26  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: unlikely... a car + caravan may generally not weigh more than 3,5t in the Netherlands, so 2-2,5t for a fully loaded car is more reasonable
11:13:27  <andythenorth> just at a guess, my vehicle ferry that carries 585 passengers seems like it should carry up to 400t of freight
11:13:47  <andythenorth> we can go with real, or we can just guess ;)
11:13:57  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: 3.5t is way too much. The max. allowed weight for most cars is <= 2t
11:14:09  <planetmaker> and that's incl. all, passengers and luggage
11:14:39  <Eddi|zuHause> i have no car here to check...
11:15:23  <Eddi|zuHause> i guess the original ratio 4pass=2mail=1good is pretty much ok
11:15:52  <Eddi|zuHause> er... 1 other cargo
11:16:25  <planetmaker> my car has 1560kg
11:16:35  <planetmaker> as max weight
11:17:10  <planetmaker> though it's not a big one for sure
11:17:25  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i think people don't realize how easy it is to overload a car
11:17:33  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: I agree fully
11:17:41  <planetmaker> it's often done and easily done
11:18:01  <planetmaker> I guess also I did it already.
11:19:21  <planetmaker> with more than 460kg I'd already do that
11:19:29  <planetmaker> easily done, if you add 4 persons and luggage
11:20:08  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: it's more like "either 2 persons+luggage or 4 persons"
11:20:45  <planetmaker> well... 4*80 = 320 - and 20kg luggage per person. So it's not that bad. But yeah
11:21:03  <planetmaker> But then space becomes an issue ;-)
11:21:40  <planetmaker> I wouldn't want to sit anyway on the seat behind the driver's seat, if I drive :-P
11:21:49  <Eddi|zuHause> :)
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11:22:16  <Eddi|zuHause> it's difficult to drive from the back seat anyway :p
11:22:40  <planetmaker> lol ;-)
11:22:53  <planetmaker> Just watch James Bond. He can do that
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11:47:10  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r18414 /trunk/src/depot_gui.cpp: -Fix: In the depot window, 'free' wagons were not drawn resize.step_height apart
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12:15:16  <petern> hmm, multicargo ships'd be nice
12:16:35  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, also multicargo wagons...
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12:16:58  <SmatZ> multicargo everything
12:18:31  <petern> also canal tunnels
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12:19:49  <petern> with presumably a vehicle flag to stop massive oil tankers using a tunnel designed for a canal barge...
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12:25:59  <andythenorth> petern: my ships are already clipping bridges quite horribly :(  might as well clip the tunnels too :)
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12:27:10  <andythenorth> and yes, multi-cargo ships would be nice, although then I'd have to rebalance my set :(
12:27:13  <Eddi|zuHause> petern: 1/2 tile and 2-tile wide ships :)
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12:27:42  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: that just depends how wide the graphics are drawn
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12:28:24  <Eddi|zuHause> no, when you also have ship-collisions, you need a properly wide canal.
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12:28:47  <Eddi|zuHause> i.e. rivers would only be useful to run 1/2 tile ships
12:28:51  <Eddi|zuHause> in two directions
12:29:28  <Eddi|zuHause> 1 tile would be ocean ships, and 2 tiles would be mega tankers
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12:31:15  <andythenorth> ...but we don't have ship-collisions  :P
12:33:04  <Eddi|zuHause> ... yet
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12:37:49  <andythenorth> ...nor do we have ship smoke, articulated ships, multi-cargo ships, or ships that travel at different speeds inland or at see :)
12:38:04  <andythenorth> sea /s
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12:49:29  <Mrkva> hi
12:49:40  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: we also don't have rivers that make ships go slower upstream
12:50:00  <petern> Eddi|zuHause, newflowingrivers!
12:50:21  <Mrkva> it's maybe a little bit offtopic, but can anyone recommend me an ECS compatible ship and plane set?
12:50:24  <Mrkva> thanks
12:50:26  <planetmaker> new<anything>!
12:50:38  <planetmaker> fish and WAS @ Mrkva
12:50:50  <planetmaker> not sure about WAS, though
12:51:03  <planetmaker> and no, not quite off topic
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12:51:51  <Eddi|zuHause> not nearly as off-topic as some of the on-topic discussions ;)
12:51:57  <planetmaker> :-)
12:53:19  <planetmaker> Mrkva: on the other hand: I guess _any_ plane set will do. You don't want to transport coal by plane anyway.
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12:53:58  <Rubidium> planetmaker: but I want to fuel via an airplane as that's done in real life too!
12:54:09  <Rubidium> +transport
12:54:10  <planetmaker> :-D
12:55:00  <planetmaker> Then we need more of those avanger class vehicles. And more submarines
12:58:17  <andythenorth> planetmaker: hmmm....submarines for FISH :P
12:58:37  <andythenorth> we could add a cargo to FIRS: 'illegal drugs'
12:58:39  <planetmaker> haha :-) Might be an idea... Just for fun
12:58:43  <andythenorth> 'commandos'
12:58:46  <andythenorth> 'spies'
12:58:52  <planetmaker> Like capacity "6 people"
12:58:58  <planetmaker> Speed: <10km/h
12:59:03  <andythenorth> plus, it would be *really* easy to draw :)
12:59:04  <planetmaker> for tourists
12:59:21  <planetmaker> :-)
12:59:43  <planetmaker> add it via grf parameter. As Easter egg. Undocumented ;-)
13:00:28  <planetmaker> hg ci -m "Fix: Loading sprites of some PAX ferries"
13:00:30  <planetmaker> or so
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13:03:10  <Mrkva> planetmaker: well.. I need only some ships for the fishes, right?
13:03:43  <planetmaker> Mrkva: "fish" is not only a cargo, it's also the name of a ship set ;-)
13:03:49  <Eddi|zuHause> fish and ships...
13:04:19  <Belugas> and bear
13:04:46  <Mrkva> planetmaker: wow
13:05:00  <planetmaker> bear steak and as a primer salmon in mint sauce?
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13:06:12  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: sounds like a typical english meal :p
13:06:26  <Rubidium> no beluga?
13:07:11  <Belugas> beluga 'n chips
13:07:16  <Belugas> 'n beer
13:07:17  <planetmaker> :-P
13:07:29  <planetmaker> cheers!
13:07:36  <Mrkva> planetmaker: works, thanks!
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13:07:38  <planetmaker> (No, this is not off topic :-P )
13:08:03  <planetmaker> you're welcome, Mrkva
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13:14:03  <andythenorth> Mrkva: let me know how you get on with FISH...I'm looking for feedback on the set :)
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13:43:04  <Mrkva> andythenorth: of course
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15:06:07  <Scorpio-BRZ> hi for all..anyone can help me ?
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15:07:23  <Scorpio-BRZ> How I can have trais when I started game on 1900 year ?
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15:08:28  <Forked> the first (default) train is available around 1924 iirc.. if you're playing earlier than that you need a NewGRF with other trains
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15:09:15  <Scorpio-BRZ> ok..tks can you indicate on GRF ?
15:09:24  <Scorpio-BRZ> ok..tks can you indicate one GRF ?
15:09:33  <Forked> No, sorry. check out the forum or grfcrawler
15:09:51  <Scorpio-BRZ> ok..thank you
15:10:40  <Scorpio-BRZ> bye
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16:14:26  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: rubidium * r18415 /trunk/src/town_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#3332]: on slopes the original and better road layouts did not check their minimum distance requirements
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16:15:14  <Muxy> @seen fugas
16:15:14  <DorpsGek> Muxy: fugas was last seen in #openttd 16 hours, 46 minutes, and 17 seconds ago: <Fugas> I have IRC bridge too, but not enough people to check it 24/7
16:16:10  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: frosch * r18416 /trunk/src/town_gui.cpp: -Fix (r15559): Only consider valid cargos in town GUI.
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17:25:39  <Phantasm> Uhm.. All speed limits for monorail and maglev are increased from normal train limits, except for depot entry/exit. It takes eons for maglevs to enter and exit from depot compared to the speed otherwise. Shouldn't the depot speed also be increased by same factor as corner speeds etc?
17:26:19  <Rubidium> ever seen a train entering a depot at 200 km/h?
17:26:47  <Phantasm> Ever seen depot size of 2 cars eating a train of 20 cars? ;P
17:27:12  <Phantasm> And as for that, how come can 1950 train enter depot at 61 km/h while maglev can only enter it at 61 km/h?
17:27:22  <Eddi|zuHause> Phantasm: what's the speed for formula 1 cars to go into the box?
17:27:40  <Phantasm> Huh?
17:27:55  <Eddi|zuHause> Phantasm: they don't do that at 300km/h either
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17:28:40  <Phantasm> Either steam trains (and early diesel ones as well) should have significantly lower depot speed or monorail and maglev ones should have higher.
17:29:06  <Eddi|zuHause> Phantasm: you are missing the point.
17:29:11  <Phantasm> Anyway, as of currently on any reasonably designed maglev route you need to have insane depot system to not make depots the problem.
17:29:51  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't see where the problem is... people are wanting more complex depots all the time...
17:30:00  <Phantasm> In real life the depot areas are much bigger sure, but so is the rail length compared to train length... But in real life depots are not the bottleneck of a route unless you have 20 depots at a place.
17:30:31  <Phantasm> It would be nice to have some way to make a suitable depot system without eating eons of time to make it.
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17:31:41  <Phantasm> And as for the using exactly same speed limit for all trains on entering depot... It is very unrealistic as there must be some amount of technical development there and in reality has been. The trains of now do enter depots faster than trains of 60 years back.
17:32:14  <Phantasm> Especially with mammoth trains, which are also used in real life, the depot problem is insane. A single train can enter and exit from depot for few months.
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17:34:07  <Eddi|zuHause> you are talking around the real problem
17:34:26  <Eddi|zuHause> in "real life", the whole mammoth train wouldn't go into the depot
17:34:48  <Eddi|zuHause> it would disconnect the engines, replace them with other engines, and the original engines would go into the depot
17:35:11  <Eddi|zuHause> where it doesn't matter anymore how fast they go, because the train service is not interrupted at all
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17:36:57  <Phantasm> Well, in any case, there is a problem. a pair of tracks (one for each direction) can hail 15 000 items a month with maglevs just fine, but you need some 6 tracks of depots (with rails of the length of train to both directions from the depot) every once in a while for each side. So 6 times the tracks for depots than for trains travelling.
17:38:03  <Phantasm> And if you make better system with path signals utilizing 2 tracks per direction, allowing for bypassing breakdowning trains as well as dual normal capacity, you get about 3 times the capasity. That is around 18 tracks of depots for pair of tracks.
17:38:57  <planetmaker> you still miss the point IMO: Depots are and never will be entered at cruising speed :-)
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17:39:23  <Phantasm> Not at cruising speed. But the current system is just plain idiotic.
17:39:27  <planetmaker> Or how is the speed different to park a Fiat 500 in a garage as opposed to a Bugatti?
17:39:59  <Phantasm> Either change depot system totally or fix the problem temporarily by changing depot entering speed..
17:40:12  <planetmaker> I disagree with both :-)
17:40:14  <Phantasm> planetmaker: A car of 1900 was parked a much slower than a car of today.
17:40:19  <Rubidium> with a Bugatti you crash at 400km/h into the garage, with a Fiat 500 you won't reach the garage before it rusts
17:40:26  <Phantasm> :)
17:40:30  <planetmaker> loool @ Rubidium :-)
17:41:22  <Phantasm> Anyway, it is a pain in the ass to make a hell of a bit complex of 18x40 squares to get proper servicing for trains going through 2 tracks. And do those every once in a while because trains have to get service so often or they breakdown too much.
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17:43:57  <Phantasm> And as for depot entering speed... Sure a train can technically enter a depot track and stop on it as it would on station.. ;P
17:44:33  <Phantasm> The lower speeds are just generally for safety reasons concerning staff hanging around etc.. But those can be dealth with given the need.
17:45:15  <Eddi|zuHause> Phantasm: if you lead trains through two tracks per direction, you deserve to have to build a huge depot complex...
17:46:37  <Phantasm> I don't want to make a freaking 36 (18 per side) tracks route when I can do with just 4 (2 per side) tracks.
17:47:34  <Phantasm> And with the system generally wanting specific depots and not allowing for them to go to one available the easiest.
17:48:31  <Phantasm> Eg. I can't make 3 tracks wide path with one dedicated to only having depots all the time allowing trains to go to them when needed without interrupting the 2 main tracks' traffic.
17:49:11  <Phantasm> The only option is to make it some 18 tracks wide with every track having a depot. Otherwise half the trains pass without going to any depot and everything goes bad.
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17:51:33  <Phantasm> A single service track with depots 18 times more often would do just fine and be very easy to set. But those 18 tracks wide depot complexes are just a freaking pain in the ass to make. There just isn't any way to make efficient track system without using a few years of time to build pure depots for it, when with proper pathing or other realistic fixes, it could be done in a month.
17:54:56  <Aali> maybe you should just disable servicing?
17:55:06  <planetmaker> I guess you build something wrong then, if a depot per track need more space than just one 2*trainlength+5 or so
17:55:09  <Rubidium> just disable breakdowns and servicing; those breakdowns happen unrealistically often too
17:56:49  <Phantasm> planetmaker: The length yes, but the problem is with long trains.. If I want to service each train that can travel through 2 pais of tracks, I need 18 tracks of depots to have it with maglevs. Just because it takes so long for trains to enter and exit the depot.
17:57:25  <Phantasm> Yes disabling breakdowns and servicing is one option.. But very unrealistic one.
17:57:50  <Aali> breakdowns and servicing is already very unrealistic
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17:58:05  <Phantasm> Yes, but none at all is even more so.
17:58:46  <Phantasm> I'm just saying there is a significant problem with those, especially with faster trains, that would be nice to get fixed in some way or another for those who want to make more realistic tracks.
18:00:23  <Aali> on the other hand, it's quite silly to argue about realism when you're building 4-track wide 600km/h maglev superhighways
18:02:32  <Phantasm> I'm sure it is very realistic on places where there is hell of a lot of goods to transport.
18:03:36  <Phantasm> Even at a small country like Finland, the railroad has like 10 tracks near the main station and some 20 or so tracks of station area. Of course depots elsewhere to add.
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18:06:03  <Phantasm> Considering a place 30 years from now with some nice living area with loads of people living and then another area they go to work with a 600 km/h maglevs. With such fast trains, it is very reasonable to assume such areas can form. The industrial zone and the living zone can just fine be 100 km apart and still all it takes is 15 minutes in one direction (including 5 minutes of excess time from loading train, lower speed near station, accelerating and same ...
18:06:10  <Phantasm> ... reversed)..
18:06:35  <Phantasm> Especially in china and other developing countries where the isn't yet so well built areas, such things can easily form.
18:07:04  <Phantasm> And there can be slower trains (or subways) to feed the main maglev track stations with passengers.
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18:11:19  <Eddi|zuHause> invasion of the Georges
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18:45:40  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: translators * r18417 /trunk/src/lang/ (7 files): (log message trimmed)
18:45:40  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:40  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: traditional_chinese - 31 changes by josesun
18:45:40  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: czech - 46 changes by Hadez
18:45:40  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: greek - 1 changes by fumantsu
18:45:41  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: hungarian - 2 changes by IPG
18:45:41  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: indonesian - 1 changes by prof
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20:14:05  <fjb> Does the road repair have any effect beside being annoying?
20:16:14  <Rubidium> in some situations it might clean up unneeded road bits
20:16:16  <Alberth> it tends to nicely disrupt your bus services afaik
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20:17:20  <fjb> Thank you.
20:17:35  <fjb> Alberth: I count that as annoying. :-)
20:17:38  <glx> that's why I don't do it in towns I serve :)
20:20:21  <fjb> I had some money to spend. So I tried it in a town where the ai is more present than me.
20:22:35  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: rubidium * r18418 /trunk/src/ (ai/ai_info.cpp ai/ai_info.hpp script/script_info.hpp): -Fix [FS#3298]: under some circumstances a pointer could be left untouched and then freed. Make sure this doesn't happen by ensuring it starts out as NULL instead of 'garbage'.
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20:29:26  <sparr> I am happily stumped at being unable to work on my previously mentioned resolution problem in Linux...  because Linux actually enumerates all of the video modes that my video card and display support.
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20:45:51  <Eddi|zuHause> ... so what exactly are you trying to tell us?
20:50:32  <TrueBrain> that he is good in not telling what he wants to tell
20:51:27  <nicfer> hi
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20:58:08  <fjb> Moin nicfer
20:58:19  <Forked> if thats what he wants to tell then he is good at it.. and that again means he failed to not be good at it and then the universe imploded
20:58:44  <fjb> Hm, dbset really lacks some branch line engines.
21:00:56  <planetmaker> you know... there's a version 0.9 in the pipeline
21:01:18  <planetmaker> Unfortunately it's bundled with Duke Nukem Forever
21:01:36  <fjb> Yeah, I know.
21:02:17  <andythenorth> meanwhile....I'm about to ship something...almost literally :P
21:02:29  <fjb> And the announced features are already looking old compared to Pikka's sets.
21:02:41  <fjb> Your ships are great.
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21:05:53  <fjb> I'm trying the German road vehicles set in my actual game. Sad thing is that it dislikes any other road vehicle sets beside the hover craft bus. So nor HEQS in this game. :-(
21:07:38  <fjb> But I doubt that dbsel 0.9 will have more branch line engines.
21:08:01  <andythenorth> what's the issue with German RVs and HEQS? :)
21:09:09  <frosch123> <- using fish to shamelessly advertise my own stuff :p
21:09:50  <Eddi|zuHause> fjb: that's what the "allow multiple vehicle sets" switch was invented for
21:11:14  <andythenorth> frosch123: what is TTDViewer?
21:11:20  <fjb> Yes, but Pikka's British or American engines look very diferent.
21:11:39  <frosch123> andythenorth: hmm, it displays ttd stuff
21:11:57  <andythenorth> :P
21:12:25  <frosch123> well, but you can select nice stuff on the right to make the left stuff look different
21:13:09  <frosch123> btw. the ship is blinking in the likely old version i checked out
21:15:09  <andythenorth> !
21:15:15  <andythenorth> oh
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21:18:38  <Coco-Banana-Man> löl @The IT-Crowd
21:18:47  <Coco-Banana-Man> die spielen Guitar Hero ^^
21:19:07  <frosch123> Coco-Banana-Man: wrong channel
21:22:46  <frosch123> andythenorth: in case you want to play, but beware it is not polished at all and it is no pony. it cannot even load pcx, only png :p (i.e. no release state)
21:23:00  <Coco-Banana-Man> oops.. yeah.. sorry ^^
21:25:43  <Coco-Banana-Man> I think I'm somehow quite confused today.
21:27:17  <frosch123> yeah, and i am annoyed. it is long ago since i felt that old as when i just read "l?l"
21:27:19  <frosch123> :p
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21:32:34  <andythenorth> my ship shipped, so....goodnight
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21:35:50  <nicfer> hmmm is there any plan to enhance map generation? because it usually places two or more cities together and leave big gaps without any of these
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21:36:59  <frosch123> nicfer: no, because everyone thinks different about "good" maps
21:37:48  <frosch123> you are the first one, who wants evenly distributed towns independent of terrain
21:38:59  <Rubidium> again someone who thinks random means evenly spaced?
21:40:43  <planetmaker> [22:09]	<frosch123> <- using fish to shamelessly advertise my own stuff :p <-- :-O
21:41:44  * Rubidium would have expected another kind of comment
21:42:26  <planetmaker> Was my way of "nice" :-)
21:43:02  <planetmaker> or maybe "want to have" rather :-)
21:43:13  <Rubidium> planetmaker: then download it
21:43:21  <planetmaker> just did
21:43:32  <frosch123> hehe, though i guess it is a little late to help ogfx :) looks like you figured out the recolour stuff
21:43:54  <planetmaker> well... the source code is a good guideline :-P
21:44:15  <planetmaker> doesn't mean I know which colours exactly are re-coloured for the other then CC cases
21:44:59  <frosch123> oh, in that case: the tool consistently uses the more sane dos palette, but can convert on load
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21:46:08  <planetmaker> :-) Wow. Looks pretty cool
21:46:53  <frosch123> he, looks like that is my chance :) i wondered about using mercurial for it, but need some place to host it
21:47:33  <Rubidium> ?
21:47:51  <frosch123> isn't that more for ottd branches?
21:47:59  <planetmaker> frosch123: we surely have space :-)
21:48:32  <Rubidium> frosch123: it's something useful for people making content for TTD, right?
21:49:02  <planetmaker> :-) Like catcodec...
21:49:17  <Rubidium> or pngcodec for that matter
21:49:22  <frosch123> but, would other than ottd devs get push access to it?
21:49:48  <Rubidium> frosch123: unlikely until a massive rework of the server infrastructure is done
21:49:51  <frosch123> currently there is no "external stuff"
21:51:05  <planetmaker> hm... I started the jar file, I get the window and the interface, but nothing happens when I select a pcx file to load...
21:51:24  <planetmaker> something obvious I miss?
21:51:36  <frosch123> yes, my disclaimer above
21:51:57  <frosch123> "but beware it is not polished at all and it is no pony. it cannot even load pcx, only png :p (i.e. no release state)"
21:51:59  <Xaroth> [frosch123]: andythenorth: in case you want to play, but beware it is not polished at all and it is no pony. it cannot even load pcx, only png :p (i.e. no release state)
21:52:17  <Xaroth> gah, frosch was 2 seconds faster :P
21:52:21  <frosch123> it can only load, what java knows
21:52:24  <planetmaker> oh :-) Indeed I missed it. Ty
21:52:37  <frosch123> and which has a indexed palette
21:52:49  <planetmaker> Well, easy to do.
21:53:18  <frosch123> i guess i will add a home-brewed pcx loader to it
21:53:27  <planetmaker> so... shall I add a project to the DevZone?
21:53:34  <planetmaker> and make you manager of it?
21:54:14  <frosch123> yes, would be nice. though i doubt i get it into a acceptable form until end of the week
21:54:20  <frosch123> thanks anyway :)
21:54:38  <planetmaker> well, once you're manager it's up to you to fill it with life :-P
21:55:02  <planetmaker> are you registered at the devzone?
21:55:25  <sparr> Eddi|zuHause: to the few people who tried to help with my resolution problem in Windows, to whom I mentioned I would try fixing the problem in Linux, I am trying to convey the further information that I cannot do so because Linux is too awesome
21:58:29  <frosch123> planetmaker: now, yes :)
21:59:01  *** Eddi|zuHause [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
21:59:14  <planetmaker> frosch123: I'll need your public key as well
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22:02:44  <planetmaker> frosch123: pastebin or alike might do
22:04:32  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: rubidium * r18419 /branches/ (custombridgeheads/ gamebalance/): [Several] -Remove some obsolete and (thus) stale branches.
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22:05:04  <frosch123> "several" :p
22:05:45  <planetmaker> frosch123: you might want to try whether your key works. I created an empty repo:
22:06:16  <frosch123> thanks, but i guess i am going to take some sleep first :)
22:06:25  <Rubidium> night frosch123 :)
22:06:26  <planetmaker> ssh://
22:06:31  <planetmaker> or good night :-)
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22:07:28  <frosch123> night
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22:12:44  <sparr> does it matter whether a station has complete coverage vs just one square of overlap with the desired location?
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22:13:07  <Rubidium> depends on the situation
22:13:25  <Rubidium> some industries only accept something/produce something on particular tiles
22:14:40  <Rubidium> use the query tool to see what's accepted
22:14:41  <planetmaker> you can easily check. The station tells you what it accepts and provides.
22:15:50  <sparr> so a long as it accepts/provides something, it does so for all of it?
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22:16:13  <Eddi|zuHause> last time i checked, the "provided" part is only told by the station build window, not by the station window
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22:16:20  <sparr> that is, if a coal mine produces coal on all of its tiles, i can get all of the production with coverage of just one of those tiles?
22:16:25  <planetmaker> you're right, Eddi|zuHause
22:16:35  <planetmaker> sparr: yes
22:17:11  <sparr> thanks
22:17:20  <xi23> Rubidium bc industry is taken as rectangle you can even take cargo from emty tile:)
22:17:32  <sparr> Been a long time since I played TTD or OpenTTD, re-evaluating some of my assumptions, coming at it as a newbie :)
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22:17:53  <planetmaker> xi23: hu?
22:19:28  <xi23> if you have oil wells like:
22:19:30  <xi23> oox
22:19:30  <xi23> xox
22:19:30  <xi23> xoo
22:20:18  <Eddi|zuHause> hm the cats are dangerously close to the keyboard
22:20:31  <xi23> o is oil, x is emty tile. you can get oil from x tiles:)
22:20:37  <sparr> is there a good explanation of how passenger and mail availability works?  it seems random to me, sometimes i have stations accepting passengers in the middle of nowhere
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22:21:51  <planetmaker> sparr: some industries accept PAX
22:21:52  <Rubidium> tiles can accept anywhere between 0/8 to 8/8. If the sum of the tile acceptance within a station's coverage area is >= 8/8 the cargo is accepted
22:22:09  <Rubidium> and as planetmaker says... some industry (tiles) accept passengers
22:22:26  <Rubidium> e.g. some steel mill tiles accept 1/8 passengers
22:22:47  <sparr> so if there are 8 of them, then the station accepts passengers?
22:22:56  <Rubidium> so if you have enough of those tiles in your coverage area it's accepted by the station
22:22:59  <Rubidium> yes
22:25:56  <sparr> good to know
22:26:04  <sparr> learning a lot from the wiki and here
22:26:11  <sparr> maybe do better than break even on my next game :)
22:28:26  <planetmaker> money is no issue
22:28:52  <planetmaker> either: start with a long distance plane service  - and then do whatever you like
22:29:20  <sparr> are there any options or graphics packs that make the graphics in the game *larger*?  i have bad eyesight, so i mostly have to play at a lower resolution, but i'd prefer to just have larger graphics at full resolution
22:29:30  <planetmaker> or: build a coal (oil in tropical) network. Initially one line which you can just afford (incl. trains) from one or two primaries to their secondary industry
22:29:54  <planetmaker> there is no such graphics extension - by default.
22:30:13  <sparr> how about not-default?
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22:30:19  <planetmaker> There's a mostly experimental patch for zoom 32bpp graphics. But personally I don't recommend it
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22:30:44  <sparr> right now my biggest problem is that even with larger pixels, signal types are still hard to discern
22:30:58  <planetmaker> just use a different signal newgrf
22:31:35  <planetmaker> or use semaphores :-P - but I cannot discern those
22:32:52  <sparr> can you recommend one?
22:35:37  <planetmaker> not really. I think there are Dutch, German and Japanese around (either separate or along with tracks / infrastucture)
22:35:56  <planetmaker> probably also British somewhere
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22:44:22  <fjb> What is the best way to increment a void pointer?
22:45:00  <SmatZ> hmm ptr++ doesn't work?
22:45:43  <fjb> It gives a warning that a void pointer is used in arithmetic.
22:46:11  <SmatZ> not in C
22:46:27  <fjb> gcc does in C.
22:46:39  <SmatZ> ah it does
22:46:43  <SmatZ> with -pedantic
22:47:28  <SmatZ> -Wno-pointer-arith :-p
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22:47:55  <SmatZ> iirc, "void *" has the same granularity and alignment requirements as "char *"
22:48:01  <fjb> And does ptr++ increment ptr by one byte and ptr += 2 increment ptr by 2 bytes in all cases?
22:48:02  <SmatZ> (from C specs)
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22:49:56  <fjb> Or I cast it before I increment it.
22:50:09  <SmatZ> so yes, it should behave the same as if it were pointer to char
22:50:22  <SmatZ> I can't find the relevant part of standard now though
22:53:30  <fjb> ((uint8_t *)tx_data)++ is not working...
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22:55:37  <SmatZ> guess you are increasing temporal variable
22:55:46  <SmatZ> or how should that be called :)
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22:56:18  <SmatZ> eg. as if you did
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22:56:36  <SmatZ> uint8 *x = (uint8 *)tx_data
22:56:37  <SmatZ> x++
22:56:45  <SmatZ> but didn't store it back to tx_data
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22:57:33  <SmatZ> or
22:57:41  <SmatZ> even ... uint8 * const x
22:57:52  <SmatZ> does it warn that you are modifying read-only variable?
22:58:27  <Fast2> I moved an order accidentally. How to get it back?
22:58:46  <Sacro> move it back
22:58:55  <SmatZ> there's no "undo"
22:59:08  <fjb> No, it doesn't compile, telling me that ((uint8_t *)tx_data) is no lvalue.
22:59:12  <Fast2> I didn't find anything related in "orders" or the "hidden features" sections of the wiki
22:59:19  <SmatZ> fjb: yeah, or that :)
22:59:25  <Fast2> I don't know how to move orders
22:59:33  <SmatZ> Fast2: drag&drop
22:59:35  <SmatZ> or
22:59:37  <SmatZ> select order
22:59:40  <SmatZ> make new order
22:59:49  <SmatZ> new order will be inserted before selected order
23:00:21  <Fast2> drag&drop doesn't work
23:00:29  <SmatZ> hmm it should
23:00:37  <fjb> Moving orders is just grepping the order with the mouse and drop it where it should go to.
23:00:49  <SmatZ> fjb: if you don't need to increase the variable, do just " + 1" instead of ++
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23:01:38  <fjb> SmatZ: I have to increase it by 1, 2 or 4 bytes, depending on something.
23:02:33  <Fast2> I click an order with the left mouse button, move the curser to the new position and release the mouse button
23:02:40  <fjb> I will just write ptr +=1 etc and live with the warnung.
23:02:51  <fjb> Fast2: Yes.
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23:03:03  <Fast2> But the order doesn't move
23:03:21  <SmatZ> fjb: you can just leave it "void *"
23:03:24  <SmatZ> and do
23:03:40  <SmatZ> (uint8 *)(ptr++)
23:04:06  <fjb> Fast2: It moves after releasing the mouse button.
23:04:25  <Fast2> fjb: There's happening noting
23:05:25  <fjb> Fast2: You don't see the order move with the mouse pointer. You see the order jump to the new place after releasing the mouse button there.
23:06:22  <Fast2> Sometimes, if I try to move the last order ("End of orders" or how it's labeled in the englisch version), it tells me it can't move it. But only in one of ten cases.
23:06:25  <fjb> (uint8_t *)(ptr++) will increment it by 1 byte and (uint16_t *)(ptr++) will increase it by 2 bytes?
23:06:31  <Fast2> fjb: It doesn't jump
23:07:13  <fjb> Fast2: I just tried it. It is a bit tricky to just move it by one line.
23:07:21  <SmatZ> fjb: nope, both by 1
23:07:54  <Fast2> I did the same as I 'd done before, now it worked oO
23:08:25  <Fast2> Ok, thanks.
23:08:27  <fjb> Fast2: It is a bit tricky, as I said.
23:08:45  <fjb> SmatZ: C syntax is strange...
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23:09:47  <fjb> Will *((uint16_t *)ptr) give me the 2 bytes that ptr is pointing at?
23:10:49  <Fast2> Yes, but now it works every time, it doesn't care to where I move it (if the position is not valid, I get the notification. That didn't happen before...)
23:11:25  <Fast2> Works :)
23:11:56  <fjb> Fast2: It's my magical influence.
23:12:06  <Fast2> I knew it!
23:13:31  <Fast2> It really feels like magic. I do it in the same way, but it works from one to another second (do you say it this way?)
23:14:09  <fjb> Fast2: Don't ask me about English.
23:14:37  <Fast2> Auch ein Deutscher? :)
23:14:48  <fjb> Yes.
23:15:44  <Fast2> So you should understand what I'm trying to express
23:16:02  <Fast2> Good night!
23:16:06  <fjb> I did.
23:16:16  <fjb> Night Fast2
23:16:25  <Fast2> ;)
23:17:16  * fjb is back at counting bytes.
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23:34:52  <sparr> when two competing stations are pulling from the same production, what dictates how much goes to each station?
23:35:13  <PeterT> Station Rating
23:36:45  <Rubidium> ratings
23:37:10  <xi23> Rubidium can i ask question?:)
23:39:03  <sparr> when a train waits to leave the station, does the time it arrives or the time it leaves count as the 'last cargo pickup'?
23:39:15  <PeterT> xi23: I'm curious now...
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23:40:24  <xi23> is there a reason that client langue is not send to server?
23:42:52  <Rubidium> xi23: probably, but I wouldn't know what the reason is (if it isn't send that is)
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23:43:10  <Rubidium> sparr: neither; it's the last time it picked up (i.e. loaded) cargo
23:45:03  <sparr> ok, so a lot of trucks will earn a higher rating than one high-capacity train for the same route?
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23:47:01  <Rubidium> not necessarily
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23:48:30  <sparr> all else being equal
23:49:26  <Rubidium> well yes, but that's even regardless of whether last cargo pickup is based on arrival or departure because most of the time there will be no train at the station and there wll be a truck at a truck stop
23:49:34  <sparr> right
23:50:17  <xi23> reason is maybe that lang is not used in server:) but client send NETLANG_ANY and server saves it:)
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23:50:32  <sparr> this explains why the AI always kicks my butt when he builds trucks to compete with my trains
23:50:49  <Rubidium> or the AI builds a statue
23:50:51  <sparr> even though the trains are more efficient to run, the trucks get a higher rating and thus more to deliver
23:51:14  <sparr> or I build a statue :)
23:52:07  <sparr> trucks > train + statue
23:52:10  <sparr> :(
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23:57:47  <fjb> Build the train station a bit away from the industry and feed it with tucks.

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