Log for #openttd on 18th December 2009:
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00:00:47  <TrueBrain> either way, if you have any specific questions, we might be able to help out
00:00:49  <peter1138>
00:00:59  <TrueBrain> terinjokes: btw, for what project do you want a crosscompiler
00:01:09  <peter1138> ^ flat bits and middle bits and high bits
00:01:19  <terinjokes> ^ flat bits and middle bits and high bits
00:01:30  <peter1138> :w
00:02:21  <terinjokes> i'm building an application using WxWidgets, hopefully something that will get me away from my preporitory job ;)
00:02:41  <Eddi|zuHause> could have been a tad bit more detailed ;)
00:02:44  <TrueBrain> so it has nothing to do with OpenTTD ;)
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00:03:06  <Eddi|zuHause> and couls use a few rivers :p
00:03:27  <peter1138> yeah i scaled it too far
00:03:35  <peter1138> but my pc took a minute to open the full size
00:04:08  <terinjokes> TrueBrain: i'm not the best programmer, and I currently have no Mac, but maybe I can fix that heart on the homepage
00:04:10  <peter1138>
00:04:40  <TrueBrain> terinjokes: if you have no Mac, developing for it will be a road better left untaken
00:05:12  <terinjokes> TrueBrain: I'm working on getting a MCP to replace my iBook that died
00:06:22  <TrueBrain> either way, we are willing to help with any specific questions; we can't help you any more with the vagues ones you have been asking in the last 24 hours ;)
00:06:33  <Terkhen> good night
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00:07:19  <Yexo> nice map peter1138
00:07:36  <Yexo> I assume that's generated by our modified version of tgp?
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00:07:49  <Yexo> s/our/your/
00:07:55  <peter1138> yeah
00:08:06  <peter1138> i've added multiple curve maps
00:08:17  <peter1138> then interpolated based on map position
00:08:25  <peter1138> could be slow mind you :s
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00:10:04  <peter1138> much better result though
00:14:22  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: is that a "rough" map and if so, do smoother ones have less steep hills?
00:14:41  <peter1138> good point
00:14:43  <peter1138> it's rough
00:14:44  <Eddi|zuHause> but finally a map where tunnels might be useful
00:14:49  <peter1138> i've not touched that control
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00:22:28  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm still not entirely satisfied with the mountains tending to have plateaus instead of peaks...
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00:32:43  <Eddi|zuHause> hm. why can't kate's syntax highlight differentiate between identifiers and other symbols?
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00:37:53  <terinjokes> sigh, went to the store while waiting to the SDK to download, seems to have frozen...
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00:38:46  <Eddi|zuHause> computers tend to do that exactly in the time they are unattended
00:39:44  <terinjokes> Eddi|zuHause: not them computer, just the download
00:40:01  <Eddi|zuHause> same difference
00:40:36  <terinjokes> yep
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00:48:54  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... how do i teach kate that everything ending in "_t" is a type?
00:49:17  <Eddi|zuHause> or better: parse typedefs ;)
00:49:48  <terinjokes> call her kate_t (say it out loud)
00:52:01  <Eddi|zuHause> yay... after 250MB of download, installing tetex crashes...
00:52:26  <Eddi|zuHause> xetex
00:53:38  <Eddi|zuHause> terinjokes: i'm not entirely sure that when i say such a thing outloud i'll get the same effect that you are
00:55:03  <terinjokes> kate_t == katie
00:55:27  <terinjokes> Eddi|zuHause: I had a fun time getting TeX installed over the years
00:56:15  * fjb simply types "make install"
00:56:52  <terinjokes> fjb: i tried that way too... didn't like me too much...
00:57:26  <fjb> It never failed for me.
00:57:30  <Eddi|zuHause> terinjokes: i simply downloaded the rpm from the repository, and then i get double frees...
00:57:32  <terinjokes> something about could not make directory. [ERROR 2]
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00:58:00  <Eddi|zuHause> or rather: "free(): invalid pointer"
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01:17:28  <terinjokes> as I wait for this SDK to download... is there an advantage to having an git/hg repo ontop of svn?
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01:24:31  <Eddi|zuHause> only if you have a large amount of branches or external patch writers
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01:32:45  <Eddi|zuHause> svn has the advantage of a globally linear revision number, while hg/git have the advantage of easy branching and local versioning
01:33:31  <SpComb^> status so far: played for 2.5h, so far linked up 4+2 cities, 16 trains, 26 trams, year is 1924, largest town has a pop of 6.5k :(
01:33:38  <Eddi|zuHause> so svn is useful for keeping track of the main development version, and hg/git for branches and user patches
01:34:25  <SpComb^> this is with 4x daylength - towns are way too big, given that I've still only got the very basic dbset passenger coaches (30pax)
01:34:52  <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb^: you might want to check out the passenger reduction patch
01:35:06  <SpComb^> well, I'd also like to slow down physical town growth
01:35:39  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i might once have had a solution for that...
01:41:04  <deghosty> let us in your game :D
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01:44:04  <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb^: you can put something like "if (tick_counter%daylength_factor!=0) return;" into town_cmd.cpp:TownTickHandler
01:44:55  <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb^: or modify t->growth_rate
01:45:29  <Eddi|zuHause> but maybe that needs to be increased in size first, haven't checked
01:45:30  <SpComb^> yeah, I've looked at the code a bit
01:45:44  <Eddi|zuHause> it's initialised in DoCreateTown
01:46:17  <SpComb^> one thing I tried was to multiply TOWN_GROWTH_FREQUENCY
01:46:22  <Eddi|zuHause> "t->growth_rate = 250*daylength_factor;"
01:46:22  <SpComb^> well, increase
01:46:37  <Eddi|zuHause> and check data type
01:47:02  <SpComb^> but that didn't actually work, didn't get around to figuring out why - killed town growth to zero
01:48:19  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... t->growth_rate is also modified in UpdateTownGrowRate
01:48:30  <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb^: the TownTickHandler-version should be safe
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01:48:45  <SpComb^> yeah, changing the growth_rate is tricky, because it's pretty dynamic
01:49:07  <SpComb^> TownTickHandler is only run every TOWN_GROWTH_FREQUENCY ticks by OnTick_Town
01:49:23  <SpComb^> so that was the first thing I tried to change - effectively the same
01:50:10  <Eddi|zuHause> ah, yes
01:50:13  <Eddi|zuHause> i see
01:50:53  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't see why that shouldn't work
01:51:10  <SpComb^> for whatever reason, when I did that, all the towns stopped growing completely
01:51:29  <Eddi|zuHause> how did you change it?
01:51:30  <SpComb^> TOWN_GROWTH_FREQUENCY is somehow related to the size of the town array
01:51:54  <SpComb^> effectively changed it to 70*daylength_factor
01:52:12  <SpComb^> and changed it to a #define instead of a static const byte
01:52:13  <Eddi|zuHause> might want to try changing the data type, too.
01:52:35  <Eddi|zuHause> err... make sure you add () then
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01:53:22  <SpComb^> yeah, it was actually #defined to ScaleFromOriginalDate(70), which was `template<typename T> static inline T ScaleFromOriginalDate (T value) { return value * _date_daylength_factor; }`
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01:54:21  <Eddi|zuHause> and it's only used once, so might put that directly in the if (tick_counter % ScaleDate(TOWN_BLAH))
01:54:43  <SpComb^> well, it's referenced in a comment :P
01:55:18  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, don't change the constant, but add the Scale to the use of the constant
01:55:37  <SpComb^> I'd have to debug it and see what the issue was, but when I left the game running for 100y, the towns didn't grow at all
01:56:11  <Eddi|zuHause> with servicing the city?
01:57:08  <SpComb^> yes
01:57:43  <SpComb^> I built a short train between two cities, then loaded that savegame in two openttd's - one running at daylength=1, one running at daylength=2
01:57:53  <SpComb^> 1 growed, 2 didn't
02:02:29  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't see why it should be wrong...
02:07:23  <SpComb^> nor did I, it seems like the right approach, I'll give it another go sometime soon, I think I got tied up in the intricacies of git at that point
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02:25:31  <terinjokes> my internet just hates me tonight... now it seems the package mirror is offline
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02:43:36  <Mickster04> hey how do i get the digger tool to show, i mean its there but greyed out?
02:44:01  <Mickster04> nm
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03:12:05  <terinjokes> TrueBrain: is there a reason to prefer MacOSK10.4.Universal over MacOSX10.5?
03:16:36  <Eddi|zuHause> might have had something to do with getting things to run on 10.3, just a guess
03:18:12  <terinjokes> i noticed Rubidium's instructions used both... might do the same
03:18:29  <Eddi|zuHause> and you might want to focus your question sessions on european time ;)
03:18:40  <terinjokes> just read the file
03:18:43  <terinjokes> "For most targets, you want to extract the 10.4u SDK. This allows your binary to run from 10.3 to 10.5.
03:18:59  <terinjokes> Eddi|zuHause: i realized this morning ;)
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03:42:38  <terinjokes> sigh.... make failed at the same spot as last night....
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06:29:18  <Rubidium> terinjokes: as I said, missing includes... I reckon you didn't take a look at my ld64.patch
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07:25:37  <Terkhen> good morning
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08:42:49  <peter1138> mm
08:42:57  <peter1138> possibly need more variety on huge maps
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08:45:27  <Noldo> hm?
08:48:43  <peter1138> hmm, 2048x2048 on smooth works quite well
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09:28:22  <terinjokes> TrueBrain: you wouldn't happen to know if SetFile is availible on Linux?
09:29:06  <TrueBrain> I indeed wouldn't happen to know
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09:30:42  <terinjokes> is any of that useful? what I'm building crashes with "/Developer/Tools/SetFile -t APPL wxrc" (seems to be the lasn step
09:31:17  <TrueBrain> I have no idea
09:32:23  <terinjokes> looks like there's a replacment in
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09:55:22  <TrueBrain> terinjokes: most tools can be replaced (if needed), most are not that needed after all. The one that seems not replacable is 'hdiutil' or what was it called, which is used to make .dmg files (compressed ones)
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11:14:53  <edeca> What am I doing wrong, all the vehicles seem to favour that one platform!
11:14:57  <edeca> I am using a recent nightly
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11:19:38  <fjb> Move both outer loading places one tile closer to the station entry so that the distance from the entry to the loading places is equally long. That may help.
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11:21:11  * roboboy wonders if openttd would compile under msvc++ 6
11:21:26  <roboboy> it should I would have thought
11:21:49  <peter1138> isn't that the ancient version? i don't think it does
11:21:56  <peter1138> the newer free versions work though
11:22:31  <roboboy> it was the last non dotnet version of VS
11:22:34  <edeca> fjb: OK
11:23:15  <Yexo> edeca: are you playing with 0.7 or with a nighty?
11:23:28  <edeca> Yexo: Last night's nightly
11:23:43  <edeca> I was playing with a ~4 day old nightly
11:23:45  <edeca> Just upgraded
11:23:47  <Yexo> strange
11:23:54  <Yexo> I thought that was fixed
11:24:03  <edeca> They just go to the nearest platform, no matter what happens
11:24:16  <edeca> I just created a one way circuit round that and it still happens
11:26:06  <peter1138> roboboy, it won't compile then, you need the newer versions, preferably the newest
11:26:09  <peter1138> they're free, so...
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11:40:48  <Gremnon> probably a silly questions, but is there any way to force an MSVC build to handle crashes the same way a GCC one does?
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11:54:14  <TrueBrain> Gremnon: you question is a bit ambigious. It might help if you explain what you expect from a crash
11:57:23  <Gremnon> I mean that GCC builds handle crashes differently to an MSVC one, AFAIK
11:57:45  <Gremnon> Since I have only experience in dealing with the GCC crash dumps and so on, I wanted to see if MSVC could be made to do the same
11:57:58  <Gremnon> so it wouldn't need the PDB or debug builds that CargoDist sometimes needs
11:58:03  <Eddi|zuHause> very unlikely
11:58:47  <Gremnon> that's a bit of a pest
11:59:40  <TrueBrain> MSVC crash dumps are in fact more verbose, but no, they are not compatible, and you can't make them compatible (for the obvious reason)
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12:00:20  <Gremnon> alright, so without having access to MSVC, is there any way to use those dumps?
12:00:42  <Gremnon> I haven't looked yet, but I have my doubts about MSVC working via wine, which is the only way I could ATm
12:01:09  <TrueBrain> I doubt that is possible
12:01:28  * Gremnon goes looking on Amazon for a new copy of Windows
12:01:45  <Gremnon> I'm going to need one, it seems... everything seems to need it...
12:02:03  <TrueBrain> or just don't use MSVC
12:02:05  <TrueBrain> I don't :p
12:02:38  <Gremnon> well, i'm trying to debug my pack, and petert raised the valid point that he compiles with it, which leaves me with crash logs I can't use
12:02:51  <Gremnon> unless he's willing to take on debugging too...
12:04:03  <Yexo> petert said here he compiles with gcc, not with msvc
12:04:44  <Gremnon> would seem to disagree
12:04:59  * peter1138 ponders posting a patch that formats your harddrive...
12:05:05  <peter1138> petert will post a build
12:05:28  <Yexo> Gremnon: you notice that is exactly the link I posted? read again, ".. with GCC and not MSVC..."
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12:05:48  <Gremnon> bah, I haven't had a cup of tea yet, I misread it
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12:06:06  <Gremnon> wait, I thought GCC did generate the crash.dmp?
12:06:12  <Gremnon> it always has for me, but if that's just Linux...
12:06:46  <Yexo> dunno, haven't used linux on my desktop for quite a while
12:07:03  <planetmaker> when defining the additional shore sprites in the extra newgrf of OpenGFX, using the 10 sprites version... I wonder why they don't get used... (trunk r18527, OpenGFX r281 with a diff as found at )
12:07:08  <Gremnon> I think it's time I went and stuck OpenTTD on this freshly installed Debian build to find out...
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12:08:39  <Alberth> Gremnon: I have ~/.openttd/crash.{log,sav,png} files
12:09:10  <Alberth> Gremnon: and I have core dumps enabled
12:09:39  <Alberth> for gdb
12:11:16  <Gremnon> hmm... this is very odd... is it just gcc on win that doesn't dump then
12:17:46  <TrueBrain> core dumps are made by the kernel, not by gcc
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12:18:40  <Gremnon> right, so by that logic, would I be right in assuming that to get a dump at all from any win32 build, it'd have to be an MSVC one, and I'd need the PDB of the matching build
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12:18:59  <TrueBrain> yes
12:19:13  <Gremnon> Why does windows have to be such a pain...
12:19:32  * Gremnon wonders if it's possible to run linux OpenTTD via Cygwin/MinGW
12:19:44  <Gremnon> it'd certainly help in some areas
12:19:58  <TrueBrain> a pain? just because it is different then you are used to? I find that an overstatement
12:20:04  <TrueBrain> Windows just approaches crashes differently
12:20:22  <Gremnon> I used to be used to Windows, and I used to think Linux was a pain, now it's the other way around
12:20:39  <TrueBrain> so it is not the OS, just your perspective on the OS
12:21:17  <Gremnon> alright, so I'm a bit biased against Windows, I now find that when I have to use it, I wonder how on earth I managed to put up with it before
12:21:21  <Gremnon> at least I'm not a Linux fanatic
12:27:29  <Eddi|zuHause> you are starting to sound like one ;)
12:28:43  <Gremnon> ah, no, a fanatic is someone is who insists that his OS is the best et all. I like Linux, I find it's easier, but I try not to keep going on about it
12:28:58  <Gremnon> I also don't try to convert anyone to using it
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12:37:34  <fjb> Linux can't be the best OS because FreeBSD is. *hides*
12:42:20  <Noldo> hihi :)
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12:58:25  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i need a quick git cheatsheet...
12:59:15  <Gremnon> Eddi|zuHause -
12:59:19  <Gremnon> useful much maybe?
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13:16:33  <Eddi|zuHause> woah... conflicts in date_gui.cpp span practically the whole file...
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13:19:59  <fjb> Cargodist?
13:28:06  <Eddi|zuHause> well, more timetable gui
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13:29:43  <fjb> Oh, they also use git?
13:32:37  <Eddi|zuHause> no, they don't
13:45:01  <fjb> Why then git? I find it counter intuitive.
13:46:00  <Eddi|zuHause> to try it out?
13:47:21  <fjb> Ah, you are evaluating revision control systems to find a new one for your personal use?
13:48:04  <Eddi|zuHause> mainly i want to be familiar with it when other projects use it
13:48:34  <Gremnon> personally, in comparison to mercurial, I find git is slow and checkouts take up too much space
13:49:54  <blathijs> Hmm, I found git lightning fast compared to svn already :-)
13:50:37  <Gremnon> my speed issue is that to get a single revision, it seems to insist on bringing all kinds of bits I don't want
13:50:45  <fjb> I used find confusing. And it had some problems to keep the history of a file which was moved into another directory, last time I tried it. And it didn't work well on Windows then.
13:50:47  <Gremnon> svn I can get a specific revision or head in a matter of moments
13:51:43  <blathijs> Gremnon: Unless you moved around files, I just tried that and it took me a few different approaches before that worked...
13:52:29  <Gremnon> blathijs, you mean checking out an svn revision?
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13:52:51  <thingwath> Gremnon: --depth 0?
13:52:53  <fjb> Most revision control systems have problems with moved or renamed files and directories.
13:53:04  <blathijs> But I agree that git can be confusing, it doesn't have a very consistent interface. Windows support is better though, last time I tried (1.5 years back) there was a MSYS based version that even came with bash for free :-)
13:53:40  <Gremnon> thingwath, I've not tried much like that with git, I prefer to avoid it unless necessary, which is why I apply trunk-cargodist against svn trunk instead
13:54:05  <blathijs> Gremnon: Yeah, I want to checkout just a specific directory from an old directory, but it was moved in the latest revision. So just svn co -r rev svn://url/to/dir didn't work. I had to append @rev to the url, I found out after some time.
13:54:05  * FauxFaux uses git command-line from windows-cmd and from Eclipse relatively painlessly.
13:54:15  <FauxFaux> git's handling of line ending still makes no sense, though.
13:54:35  <blathijs> FauxFaux: Like, it doesn't handle line endings right?
13:54:48  <Gremnon> blathijs, to get a specific revision, say 18495, I use svn checkout -r 18495 svn:// <destination folder> and it works fine
13:55:11  <blathijs> Gremnon: Not if trunk was renamed to foo later
13:55:20  <FauxFaux> blathijs: The way that status can show modified files after git reset --hard, for example.
13:55:36  <Gremnon> if it was renamed, then substituting the new name should work
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13:55:50  <blathijs> FauxFaux: Hmm, now that you mention it, I saw that on windows sometime as well...
13:56:15  <blathijs> Gremnon: I don't think so. At least, checkout out the new name and doing svn up -r rev didn't work
13:56:19  <blathijs> bbl
13:56:24  <FauxFaux> If you disable autocrlf and ensure your editors defailt to unix line endings then it's fine (windows line endings would be fine, but gitweb then looks like poo).
13:58:42  <thingwath> how fast is svn checkout on openttd trunk?
13:59:05  <thingwath> If I have whole openttd git repository, I can switch to different revisions in ~seconds, I doubt that svn can beat that.
13:59:06  <Gremnon> thingwath, for me, I can get head in a few moments. I've never timed it, but it's the quickest way to get it for me
14:00:49  <Noldo> are you really having some kind of version control war?
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14:02:14  <Gremnon> I hope not, but FWIW I prefer SVN because of the speed I can get it, Mercurial for more advanced actions that SVN doesn't support, and GIT only if there's no other choice
14:03:58  <Alberth> thingwath: if you pull svn over the Internet, it is not a fair comparison
14:04:09  <thingwath> hm, ~10 seconds for openttd trunk checkout with svn
14:04:12  <fjb> I don't see this as a war.
14:04:18  <thingwath> that's quite good
14:05:45  <fjb> I have chosen bazaar because it saves me a lot of disc space and worked like I expected out of the box.
14:06:45  <Gremnon> by the same logic, that's pretty much the same reason I favour SVN
14:07:04  <thingwath> Is there a way to have whole svn repository locally? I remember svk, but that wasn't exactly the thing I'd like to use.
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14:07:31  <Gremnon> why would you want to, when you can call in a specific revision from the online repository in a few seconds?
14:07:51  <thingwath> because quite often I can't :)
14:07:53  <Gremnon> especially since you can 'update' with svn update to an older revision as well as a new one
14:09:40  <Gremnon> looking at the output of svn -h and the man page, I don't think there is a way, except possibly by 3rd party tool, or checking them all out yourself
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14:09:51  <Gremnon> I think in that case, git does win out over hg and svn
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14:11:02  <fjb> The next problem is putting local changes under version control.
14:11:07  <thingwath> Well, I use git-svn for that purpose :o) But that is really slow.
14:11:21  <planetmaker> the fundamental difference between hg and git on the one side and svn on the other side is distributed VCS vs. centralized VCS
14:11:21  <Gremnon> fjb, doesn't mercurial have something to handle that? I'm sure it does.
14:11:30  <thingwath> I'd like to have something faster. To clone whole openttd svn repository with git-svn would be very painful.
14:11:45  <planetmaker> For most parts a distributed VCS has its advantages, if you maintain many local branches of a repo.
14:11:57  <planetmaker> as you can check out any version w/o internet access
14:12:14  <fjb> Gremnon: The local changes problem is related to svn, not mercurial.
14:13:09  <Gremnon> I believe there's a mercurial equivilent of git-svn, but I could be wrong
14:13:19  <planetmaker> and if you do a bit more dev than applying an occasional patch to trunk, a VCS with the whole history locally rules
14:13:45  <Gremnon> planetmaker, that's way I keep a manual log of everything I do, especially when it comes to multiple patches and conflicts
14:13:52  <fjb> Yes. That is why I replaced svn for my personal use.
14:13:56  <Gremnon> slower, but also means I can write it in a format I understand
14:14:06  <planetmaker> fjb: same here :-) Using hg ever since
14:14:28  <thingwath> hm, is there any reason why I woulnd't like to have whole repository locally?
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14:14:39  <planetmaker> Gremnon: manual log... that's like throwing away a VCS while you use it.
14:14:47  <planetmaker> thingwath: space?
14:15:01  <Gremnon> not really, I note down the exact changes I make, and I can interpret it a lot quicker
14:15:15  <thingwath> planetmaker: Of course. Exepct that. Even linux-2.6-stable is no more than 1.5GB, and I don't mind that. :)
14:15:26  <Gremnon> and yes, space is a limiting factor, 200GB drives don't grow on trees
14:15:31  <fjb> I'm always low on disc space, so I use bazaar now. And is has import and export plugins for other version control systems.
14:15:32  * Gremnon wishes they did
14:15:33  <planetmaker> thingwath: yes. And then do that with 20...30 checkouts
14:15:46  <planetmaker> on a laptop
14:15:55  <thingwath> For a single repository? I don't need that, with git.
14:16:02  <thingwath> Just branches, which are cheap.
14:16:35  <planetmaker> well, yes :-)
14:16:56  <Gremnon> space is why I like svn - my current local modified copy has never been more than 125MB after compiling
14:16:59  <planetmaker> that's the one thing where git has a bit of an advantage over hg still, I think. Though hg is getting to better handling of those, too
14:17:20  <edeca> Gremnon: WinDBG will load crash dumps but I doubt that runs in WINE either
14:17:52  <Gremnon> edeca, will have a look at it. I'm going to have a look at getting Wine to play nice with MSVC later too.
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14:18:29  <fjb> Has git a kind of shared repository when the branches live in the same directory tree?
14:18:50  <thingwath> That's quite basic feature of git. :)
14:19:15  <edeca> Gremnon: WinDBG is more likely to run than MSVC I'd guess :)
14:19:41  <Gremnon> edeca, we'll see, I've got to get Wine itself to behave on a fresh Debian install yet
14:19:51  <fjb> That saves a lot of duplicated space and the reason for me not to use mercurial.
14:19:52  <planetmaker> fjb: yes, that's IMO the whole point of git
14:20:02  <edeca> Gremnon: Are you using a nightly/updated wine or the one from the repository?
14:20:07  <planetmaker> but I haven't yet used it extensively myself
14:20:20  <fjb> Bazaar uses shared repositories too.
14:20:43  <Gremnon> edeca, neither at the moment, but I always aim to go for the nightlies. I keep getting 404 not found on the Lenny repositories it suggests
14:20:46  <fjb> I didn't know git also has that feature.
14:20:52  <planetmaker> hg can, too. No problem to maintain zillions of heads
14:21:09  <planetmaker> but... dunno. I prefer separate repos :-)
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14:21:19  <edeca> Gremnon: Eh I use the ubuntu ppa ones, unsure if they'd work on debian but I don't see why not :)
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14:21:47  <Gremnon> edeca, If all else fails, then I'll just compile it from source, it wouldn't be the first app I've had to so far
14:22:13  <edeca> So does anybody know why I'm experiencing a bug with road vehicles always picking the nearest road stop?
14:22:21  <edeca> I thought it had been fixed in the recent nightlies :(
14:22:30  <Gremnon> It has, to my knowledge
14:22:51  <edeca> I can reproduce :(
14:23:26  <Gremnon> btw, for anyone using windows and mingw, could they possibly have a look at this: if it works for OpenTTD, I think it could be useful
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14:27:22  <glx> Gremnon: it's far from being finished
14:27:25  <planetmaker> edeca: did you then produce a decent bug report at flyspray?
14:28:06  <planetmaker> with best both, a savegame which (will) show(s) it and steps on how to reproduce?
14:28:29  <Alberth> thingwath: just in case you don't know, you can pull git and hg mirrors of the svn openttd repo
14:28:29  <edeca> planetmaker: Sure, I can bug it if you like
14:28:47  <edeca> planetmaker: I have a screenshot and can find a savegame
14:29:04  <Alberth> edeca: thanks :)
14:29:16  <planetmaker> edeca: it's not "I like it". It's the way you most easily bring it to the attention of who can fix it. And it won't get forgotten till it's fixed
14:29:18  <blathijs> thingwath: Yeah, the git mirror is useful for offline hacking (I've used both that and svk before)
14:30:14  * planetmaker ponders also making a bug report about shore sprite substitutions in base set extra grfs.
14:30:17  <glx> Gremnon: and IIRC it can only edit code and compile
14:31:07  <Gremnon> glx, I don't have Windows available to have a look, and I only saw it in passing. Maybe when it's a bit further along it could be useful?
14:31:14  <Ammler> planetmaker: wait for frosch ;-)
14:31:22  <planetmaker> ^ my plan :-P
14:31:39  <thingwath> Alberth: Yep, it's very useful, much much better than having to use git-svn myself. :)
14:32:30  <Belugas> good day
14:35:12  <Terkhen> hello Belugas
14:35:48  <edeca> "Account acitvated (Step 3/3)" typo on
14:39:23  <edeca> How do I attach a savegame if it is >8mb and wont compress any further?
14:41:23  <Belugas> set up an ftp server on your machine?
14:42:01  <edeca> Oh, I could link to it from my server
14:42:08  <edeca> Good idea, I'm an idiot :)
14:42:35  <Alberth> make a smaller example
14:42:37  <Belugas> naaa...
14:43:04  <michi_cc> Gremnon: SVN is actually very space-ineffective. Size of a fresh SVN checkout and git clone:
14:43:16  <Alberth> edeca: your problem should be reproducable right at the beginning of the game
14:43:28  <edeca> Alberth: Good point, I'll make a smaller one
14:43:44  <Alberth> michi_cc: svn makes a copy of every source file, so divide by 2 for a comparison
14:44:08  <michi_cc> Gremnon: 8MB more gets you complete history and no network dependency for doing any real work. (Note: if you do heavy development on the git repo, a regular git gc will keep size down)
14:45:15  <michi_cc> Alberth: are these files optional to work with SVN? They aren't as far as I know which means that they do count
14:45:45  <Alberth> fair point
14:46:43  <Gremnon> I think the space effectiveness depends on how you use it really, I seldom have enough to make it worth the extra that GIY would provide, for the slower checkout time I experience
14:47:40  <edeca> Alberth: Nope, I just started a new game and I can't reproduct :)
14:47:57  <michi_cc> oh, and: 88M     openttd_hg
14:47:59  <Alberth> weird
14:48:26  <edeca> Alberth: Oh well, I should change how I'm doing it anyway as I shouldn't have trucks waiting to unload waiting for those that depend on output
14:49:13  <michi_cc> Gremnon: are you sure you mean checkout? Beacuse and that's with cygwin which is known to be slow.
14:49:17  <Alberth> edeca: yeah, that seems sane :)
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14:50:05  <Gremnon> michi_cc, by checkout, I mean that if I get a computer which has only just had GIT installed, and has never checked out CargoDist, the two commands the CargoDist wiki page says to use will take about an hour to complete for me
14:50:05  <michi_cc> Gremnon: a git clone on the other is slower, but you have to do that mostly only once, and a fetch/pull to update is fast if done regularly (i.e. the remote repo hasn't got too many changes)
14:50:37  <Gremnon> the thing is, i don't *need* all the revisions - just the one I'm working on currently, and unmodified trunk's head
14:50:46  <Gremnon> those are the only two checkouts I use
14:51:23  <edeca> Alberth: It seems to be with articulated vehicles.  1 articulated vehicle takes up the same space as 2 smaller ones, perhaps the game thinks there is an empty "slot" at the station so all vehicles head for it
14:51:27  * edeca guesses randomly
14:51:49  <michi_cc> Gremnon: okay, but cargodist is accessed by an http-url, right? A clone of git:// will probably be much faster. git over HTTP is definitely slow, that is a drawback compared to svn
14:52:46  <Gremnon> I've never tried a git checkout of openttd itself, I've preferred svn because, as said, it takes very little time to get a single revision
14:54:00  <Alberth> edeca: first priority in a FS bug is to explain/show how to reproduce the problem exactly. You can add guesses if you like, but say it is a guess rather than a fact.
14:54:33  <michi_cc> yes, but cloning needs to be done only once. a regualr fetch/pull/checkout/whatever to get the new trunk changes will likely be as fast as svn
14:54:42  <edeca> Alberth: I'm just uploading the example then I'll bug
14:54:56  <Eddi|zuHause> you still discussing git?
14:54:58  <Gremnon> the space for each additional revision still adds up though, and space is something I have to economise on
14:55:16  <planetmaker> get a new HD :-P
14:55:29  <Gremnon> with just two folders, my working copy and trunk@head, that's very little space taken up, overall, compared to having an entire git clone@HEAD sat there
14:55:42  <Gremnon> planetmaker, on a laptop that has no means of connecting one?
14:55:57  * edeca buys Gremnon an Etch-A-Sketch
14:56:06  <planetmaker> Gremnon: on a laptop you can also replace the HD
14:56:28  <planetmaker> I actually quite like that I did with my last system upgrade
14:56:29  <michi_cc> it does add up, but not that fast. being very short on space is one of the reasons to manually run git gc regularly
14:56:31  <glx> a laptop without usb ?
14:56:39  <Gremnon> planetmaker, problem then is that it'll have to come with an OS preinstalled, because if it's blank, I can't do anything with it
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14:56:48  <Gremnon> glx, no, the only USB port no longer works, that's all
14:56:54  <Gremnon> and it has no CD/DVD drive, stupidly
14:57:02  <thingwath> 231M    /home/thingie/stuff/openttd/
14:57:07  <thingwath> that isn't much, I think
14:57:10  <edeca> Network boot! :)
14:57:15  <thingwath> and you can boot over the network
14:57:16  <thingwath> :)
14:57:17  <Gremnon> michi_cc, well, I'll try it if/when I ever get my laptop working again
14:57:18  <Gremnon> sigh
14:57:21  <Gremnon> can't network boot
14:57:26  <planetmaker> Gremnon: even that could be don on another computer then.
14:57:26  <Gremnon> laptop doesn't support it
14:57:27  <Gremnon> already tried
14:57:41  <thingwath> then have someone install the system on that disc for you :)
14:57:47  <Gremnon> planetmaker, if you can find what I'd need to do it for a laptop HD compatible with a Dell Latitude C400, then I could
14:58:04  <Gremnon> as it is, I lack any means of connecting it to your standard tower PC
14:58:20  <planetmaker> Gremnon: any usual 2.5" disc will do, I guess
14:58:27  <edeca> Gremnon: I think you need a new laptop.. ;)
14:58:41  <Gremnon> planetmaker, nope, it doesn't use that. LinuxQuestions already helped find that out
14:58:50  <Gremnon> edeca, certainly, but I lack the funding to get it
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15:03:27  * Gremnon ponders moving to Gentoo because he seems to be compiling almost everything lately
15:07:18  <edeca> Gremnon: I used to use gentoo all the time
15:08:15  <Gremnon> the main reason I'm considering it again is because the Debian repositories seem to be missing a LOT of packages I use a lot
15:08:29  <Gremnon> so I have to compile them, and I'm practically compiling everything now, it seems
15:08:36  <thingwath> debian repositories missing packages?
15:08:43  *** Terkhen [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:08:49  <edeca> What sort of packages?
15:08:53  <Gremnon> not exactly missing as such, but the packages I use aren't there
15:08:58  <Gremnon> packages like Subcommander
15:08:59  <edeca> I find with universe/multiverse on Ubuntu most stuff is there
15:09:12  <Gremnon> that's Ubuntu though, not Debian, and there's even more packages that ubuntu has that Debian doesn't
15:09:12  <edeca> Alberth:
15:09:16  <michi_cc> and some pointless git cheating: (cheating: nobody in his right mind would do such a repack every single day and thusly always have a larger repo (still, full history smaller than signle checkout))
15:09:24  <Gremnon> even with free non-free and contrib enabled
15:09:29  <edeca> Gremnon: Many of them are straight from Debian though
15:09:58  <thingwath> You can package it yourself, if it's just a few packages.
15:10:11  <Ammler> michi_cc: run hg up null
15:10:15  <Gremnon> thingwath, I still have to compile it first, as Subcommander has no Debian precompiled
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15:10:34  <edeca> Gremnon: I use checkinstall for that, you still have to ./configure
15:10:35  <Gremnon> edeca, I know, but if by that logic, they should be in the Debian repositories - and they're not
15:10:55  * edeca uses Ubuntu for desktops and Debian for servers
15:10:59  <edeca> And Windows 7 at home to please the wife
15:11:00  <Gremnon> edeca, actually, ./configure, make, make install, since I'm not packaging and distributing them
15:11:27  <edeca> Gremnon: ./configure && checkinstall = easy package for you to remove later :)
15:11:48  <Gremnon> that works too, but make uninstall also removes it too
15:12:03  <edeca> Only if the author thought to include that, but yes true
15:12:11  <Gremnon> I'm just a bit peeved that so many packages I'm used to on previous distros, even non-deb-based ones, aren't in Debian
15:12:12  <michi_cc> Ammler: that git repo is still with the working checkout, I didn't cheat that much ;)
15:12:20  <Gremnon> I seem to be using far too much space on the -dev packages
15:12:34  <Ammler> :-)
15:12:58  <michi_cc> Ammler: 33M     .git :)
15:13:06  <thingwath> Gremnon: clean deb packages could be built elsewhere and you'd save that much precious space :)
15:13:47  <blathijs> Gremnon: I guess you use a very particular category of packages then, since in my experience Debian has one of the largest repositories of all distros...
15:13:51  <Gremnon> thingwath, I don't have any deb-based system except this one at the moment
15:14:26  <Ammler> well, you don't use hg because of the disk usage, but is is very easy for svn users.
15:14:26  <Gremnon> blathijs, I don't dispute that, there are packages in Debian's repos that I've never seen before, but I still think there's too many missing
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15:14:44  <Gremnon> and Debian's habit of rejecting things like Firefox on what seem to me to be technicalities doesn't help any either
15:15:17  <blathijs> Gremnon: They are called principles, not technicalities :-)
15:15:31  <blathijs> Gremnon: And the software is there allright, it's just the name :-)
15:15:44  <ChoHag> Gremnon: They're doing you a favour.
15:15:48  <Gremnon> you mean the Iceweasel that's outdated? I prefer latest stable
15:15:49  <ChoHag> Firefox is shit.
15:15:53  <Gremnon> I don't think so
15:15:56  <ChoHag> It will steal your children and burn down your house.
15:16:00  <ChoHag> And eat your bandwidth.
15:16:01  <Gremnon> I think that about Opera, but not FF
15:16:22  <Gremnon> Opera to me is not as useful, but for maybe two features
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15:16:38  <Gremnon> the quick-dial, and the one-click key icon which saves passwords, not that I save them
15:18:26  <blathijs> Gremnon: The Iceweasel version you get is the same as the Firefox version you would have gotten without the licensing issues. If you think that's too old, that's another issue entirely...
15:18:43  <Gremnon> I don't think so. Debian's Iceweasel reports as 3.0, not Firefox's 3.5.6
15:19:17  <Gremnon> I know that because several of my addons refuse to work with Iceweasel because it reports as 3.0
15:19:22  <Gremnon> and this is from Debian Lenny's repo
15:21:37  <blathijs> Gremnon: This is really unrelated to the naming issue...
15:22:00  <blathijs> Gremnon: I agree that Debian is not the fastest with its updates, but it's really a feature in a way :-)
15:22:25  <Gremnon> sometimes you have to makea balance between passing things off as features, and actually providing the updates people want
15:22:41  <Gremnon> which is why I've put actual branded firefox in /opt, and will continue to use actual branded firefox
15:23:07  <Gremnon> Firefox aside though, I have to wonder why several open source projects, such as the mentioned subcommander, are missing from their repo
15:23:09  <Alberth> edeca: thanks for the report, although I don't know how to fix it.
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15:23:25  <Alberth> edeca: I don't even can load the save game due to missing newgrf files
15:23:44  <Alberth> s/don't even can/cannot even/
15:23:58  <Alberth> hmm, still not right
15:24:06  <blathijs> Gremnon: Apparently there hasn't been a Debian maintainer interested to invest time in the package...
15:24:38  <Gremnon> hmm... seeing as it refuses to compile on Debian, I'm inclined to agree with that...
15:24:45  <Gremnon> now I just need something that I can use in place of it
15:26:27  <Rubidium> Gremnon: if you want the updates quickly, use Ubuntu and sit on the blisters of it not being stabilising for a while before going 'stable'
15:27:18  <Gremnon> I've gone off Ubuntu and derivatives after a clean install of 9.04 saw nautilus segfault before I even did anything
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15:28:07  <Gremnon> Fedora I used, and went off because of SELinux's over-restrictiveness, and the lack of a means to remove it, and I'm now working my way through other distros until I find one that works for me
15:28:16  <Gremnon> Debian just happens to be the current victim of my use
15:33:25  <Rubidium> hmm, iceweasel isn't in debian backports?
15:33:57  <Gremnon> I wouldn't know, backports 404s on me, as does debian unofficial
15:34:42  <Gremnon> I've been using this ( to get the sources for the list, but either it's outdated, or C&P seems to be doing something wrong as they don'twork for me
15:35:02  <Gremnon> at least, when set to location GB, and version set to Lenny
15:39:28  <edeca> Alberth: I'll whip one up with only the road vehicles set
15:39:37  <Rubidium> oh, it isn't in backports... that's too bad for you
15:40:23  <Gremnon> not really, as said, I've gone and got the stable firefox from mozilla, and put it in /opt, works no different than if it had been package-installed on ubuntu except for where it's located
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15:42:03  <Gremnon> hmm, subcommander is in Squeeze, but not Lenny... I know Squeeze is testing, but isn't it meant to be for testing in Debian, not testing the actual software itself?
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15:43:28  <peter1138> ..
15:43:43  <edeca> It's a proposed addition to the next release of the distro
15:43:47  <edeca> Hence it needs testing
15:43:55  <edeca> Alberth: Updated so that it has a better savegame
15:44:11  <Alberth> ok
15:44:18  <Gremnon> by that, you mean testing it's compatibility with Debian, not just it?
15:44:32  <edeca> Yes.  It's not software testin
15:44:33  <peter1138> testing is the next release of debian
15:44:40  <peter1138> why shouldn't new programmes be in it?
15:44:42  <edeca> It is "make sure we have the right dependencies and it runs correctly"
15:44:47  <peter1138> (how else would you get new programmes in?)
15:45:06  <Gremnon> now, unless I've mis-checked the dates, Subcommander hasn't changed since Lenny was Squeeze, and has still been in there
15:45:08  <edeca> peter1138: Magic fairies
15:45:21  <Rubidium> Gremnon: testing is for everything that's in unstable and didn't have more serious bugs within 10 days than the 'current' version in testing
15:45:23  <peter1138> Lenny was never squeeze
15:45:34  <edeca> Gremnon: Sure, but once a distro is released not too many new packages are added
15:45:58  <Gremnon> I think I need to be using Squeeze instead, it might solve just about every problem I've had with Debian so far
15:46:11  <edeca> ITYM "ubuntu" :P
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15:46:14  <Gremnon> except getting sound working
15:46:34  <Gremnon> and no, not Ubuntu, I'm not using that. If nautilus segfaults on a fresh install, there's something very wrong
15:46:57  <edeca> Yes, but wrong with what? :)
15:47:01  <peter1138> debian lenny works great for me :D
15:47:20  <Gremnon> I like to have a working file manager, installing other ones didn't help any either
15:47:41  <peter1138> gnome-vfs-daemon has a habit of crashing with smb though
15:47:47  <Gremnon> maybe I just need to find a different distro that isn't so annoying for me, or maybe I'll finally get around to trying freebsd
15:48:06  <peter1138> (i reported the bug but there's no fix apart from wait for squeeze for gvfs instead)
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15:50:55  <Gremnon> and yet everyone I ask seems to think debian lenny is perfect for me, although Mandriva has also been suggested
15:51:01  <Gremnon> I think I might give it a shot
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15:56:44  <edeca> Rubidium: Thanks for your comment on my bug.  It only seems to happen with articulated vehicles though
15:56:44  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r18528 /trunk/src/rail_gui.cpp: -Fix (FS#3370): Platform length/count buttons not centred when NewGRF stations in use.
15:57:29  <Rubidium> edeca: I've tested it with articulated vehicles and it worked fine there, although I'm seeing more 'brokenness' with that savegame
15:57:47  <Rubidium> probably exactly the length to trigger some corner case
15:58:40  <edeca> Rubidium: OK, I'll do as you say and build smaller entrances.  But that's a brand new savegame, nothing weird :)
15:58:50  <edeca> Thanks for your comments
15:59:33  <Rubidium> build a 3 tile (length) road stop and the second vehicle doesn't load... that shouldn't happen
16:00:01  <Rubidium> why that does happen I don't exactly know, although it might be somewhat related to your problem
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16:00:23  <edeca> It's almost like the vehicles are heading for that station as they don't think it is occupied
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16:03:54  <planetmaker> Rubidium: concerning FS 3383: I understand correctly that this issue works for newgrf, but cannot be fixed for basegrfs?
16:04:51  <planetmaker> But I don't quite understand your reply there, I think
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16:08:40  <planetmaker> The point I tried to make there is: the text for the lower default ships is beyond their sprites...
16:08:47  <planetmaker> s/beyond/behind/
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16:13:50  <peter1138> arrr,
16:16:06  <peter1138> just needs rivers ;p
16:16:14  <Eddi|zuHause> hah, no extreme cliffs anymore ;)
16:16:37  <peter1138> hmm?
16:16:47  <planetmaker> pretty flat map, eh?
16:17:40  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: on typical TGP maps with water borders, there is usually a steep cut at the edge of the map
16:18:16  <peter1138> hmm
16:18:27  <peter1138>
16:18:29  <peter1138> another
16:18:38  <peter1138> planetmaker, luck ;)
16:18:58  <peter1138> there are 4 curve maps
16:19:29  <peter1138> each corner picks one of the 4 randomly, duplicate is allowed so it's not all 4 types may appear on a map
16:20:01  <peter1138> then linear interpolation is used with some massaging to apply the curve maps across the map
16:20:30  <peter1138> this might need to be changed, though
16:20:52  <peter1138> on a huge map it's probably too obvious
16:22:16  <Eddi|zuHause> i think that gets closer to what the original landscape generator did on arctic maps
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16:22:45  <peter1138> yup
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16:22:47  <Eddi|zuHause> where one half of the map was above snow level and the other half was below
16:23:53  <Eddi|zuHause> i can't figure out how to properly terraform for the rivers
16:24:04  <weaselboy246> hmm, is it possible to get actual cliffs? like instant drop to a few levels down?
16:24:20  <Eddi|zuHause> weaselboy246: not currently
16:24:29  <Eddi|zuHause> weaselboy246: and not likely in the near future
16:24:29  <weaselboy246> or does the map structure not allow that
16:24:33  <Skiddles> variety4.png would make a fun map to play on, if not for the clump of industries at Condingville D:
16:24:34  <weaselboy246> hmm ok
16:24:44  <planetmaker> peter1138: is it TGP or what you posted in Zeph's land gen thread?
16:25:12  <Eddi|zuHause> weaselboy246: let's say the map structure can be modified for it, but the visual representation and access to what's "behind" the cliff is problematic
16:25:17  <peter1138> Skiddles, i probably need to tweak industry properties
16:25:30  <peter1138> i bet i've enabled the one that allows industries close to each other
16:25:35  <peter1138> planetmaker, it's a progression of that
16:25:37  <Skiddles> probably
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16:25:48  <planetmaker> I see :-)
16:25:58  <weaselboy246> ahh... that's true. can't rotate map if there was something on other side
16:26:04  <Skiddles> Go host a pj1k server which resets in 1970 D:
16:26:06  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: you seem to be there where I kinda gave up with rivers :-)
16:26:24  <peter1138> planetmaker, the patch i posted only applies one curve map to the whole thing
16:26:34  <peter1138> so it's not particularly varied
16:26:58  <planetmaker> ah... :-) So... a new landgen ahead? :-)
16:27:17  <peter1138> no, it's still just a small modification of TGP
16:27:21  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: well, i placed the rivers on the TGP heightmap, where one has the opportunity to find out on flat tiles where "downwards" is
16:27:34  <Eddi|zuHause> because of the fractional values
16:27:45  <planetmaker> good choice, I guess. I didn't do that
16:27:58  <peter1138> Skiddles, yup "allow multiple" and "same type" are both on
16:27:59  <Eddi|zuHause> but i get rivers on invalid slopes, and i can't properly fix them
16:28:38  <planetmaker> can't you query the type of slope?
16:29:05  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: that's easy, but recursively terraforming the adjacent tiles without breaking other rivers...
16:29:19  <Skiddles> Hmm, would be nice to have primary industries of the same type, but secondary ones just make it messy
16:29:29  <peter1138> *nod*
16:29:30  <planetmaker> hm.... yes. Other rivers ;-) They're a pest
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16:30:33  <peter1138> set a flag to disallow destruction of rivers when terraforming
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16:31:21  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: i'm working on the heightmap, not on the actual map, so i'm only setting the heights
16:31:33  <peter1138> ah
16:33:08  <Eddi|zuHause> i can probably brute force set the heights backwards when creating a sink...
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16:34:22  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not entirely sure how the HeightMapSmoothSlopes function works
16:34:41  <Devedse> Hello everyone, is there a way to select a part of your train track (for example a cross) and copy it to another place on the map?
16:34:49  <peter1138> no
16:35:48  <weaselboy246> there was a copy paste patch awhile back. probably broken now
16:36:04  <Devedse> ok :)
16:36:11  <Devedse> i gues il do it manually then :P
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16:43:18  <peter1138> hmm, not all maps are any good
16:43:25  <peter1138> but then the same is true of TGP
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16:56:42  <edeca> I think somebody was making sure the copy paste patch worked with trunk
16:56:49  <edeca> There is a compiled version on the forums that has it in
16:56:54  * edeca hasn't looked at the patch for a long long time
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17:04:21  <SmatZ> good evening frosch123
17:04:30  <frosch123> hello smatz :)
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17:12:27  <planetmaker> moin frosch123 :-)
17:12:41  <planetmaker> I'd like to pester you again :-P
17:12:42  <frosch123> quak planetmaker :p
17:12:56  <Sacro> <3
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17:13:22  <frosch123> fine, if i can continue reading spon in parallel :p
17:13:53  <Eddi|zuHause> the "former news magazine"? :p
17:13:55  <planetmaker> I'm still messing with the shore tiles of OpenGFX... and the extra newgrf allows only 10 sprites, if the GRFID is the same as the hard coded OpenTTD grfID
17:14:26  <planetmaker> Now I wonder: is it a requirement that the extra (new)grfs have all that GRFID, or is it something which needs fixing in OpenTTD? :-)
17:15:32  <planetmaker> the relevant lines of code are newgrf_config.cpp:503 and newgrf.cpp:3628...3645
17:16:12  <planetmaker> or in other words: I'm not sure wheter it's a bug or a feature ;-)
17:16:28  <frosch123> hmm, i thought the grfid only has to start with ff to make it not show up in newgrf gui, while the rest is controlled by the obg
17:17:04  <planetmaker> that's what I *thought*, too :-)
17:17:28  <planetmaker> But the variable IsOpenTTDBaseGRF checks for that ID. And only then the 10 sprites are accepted
17:17:58  <planetmaker> actually, the ID starting with FF is explicitly NOT tested for. It's masked out
17:18:19  <frosch123> no, it isn't, the fourth byte is masked
17:18:32  <planetmaker> oh... swapping the stuff?
17:18:51  <planetmaker> ok... :-) that explains why my try to reverse the check fails
17:19:50  <peter1138> hurr
17:19:54  <Eddi|zuHause> grf-ids are shown in little endian, i believe
17:20:23  <peter1138> < commit? :p
17:20:32  <SpComb^> Eddi|zuHause: seems like the TOWN_GROWTH_FREQEUNCY multiplier is working just fine now that I'm trying it again
17:21:02  <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb^: good. now tell that in the daylength patch thread ;)
17:21:09  <planetmaker> Doesn't look bad, peter1138
17:21:36  <SpComb^> Eddi|zuHause: meh, I wouldn't know which one to post in, and I'm not sure I want to
17:22:22  <peter1138> ack, bloody customer
17:22:40  <Eddi|zuHause> how dare he!
17:22:53  <peter1138> "is $employee there?" "no" "oh, he was going to do a sale on our site like last year, did he mention it" "OH REALLY"
17:23:20  <peter1138> how "convenient" that $employee is off...
17:24:07  <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb^: well, all those balancing issues must be collected somewhere, or there will never be a remotely trunk-worthy patch
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17:27:01  <edeca> orly!
17:27:07  <Madis> yarly
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17:27:23  <edeca> I'm still waiting for BT to phone me back 48 hours later, on something that has a max 24 hour resolution time
17:27:42  <edeca> "sir, how about you try changing the username and password in your router to our test ones?"
17:28:02  <edeca> "sure, but will that fix the fact that all the packets which come from the exchange have a bad CRC and the line has been retraining for 3 days?"
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17:40:26  <SpComb^> although I kind of suspect that changes to TOWN_GROWTH_FREQEUNCY aren't perfectly linear
17:42:12  <SpComb^> but given, there's random factor, so just comparing two games won't tell you much
17:43:00  <peter1138> planetmaker, patch posted :)
17:52:47  <SpComb^> but a town pop of 2.5k in 2050 with 1x seems to be a town pop of about 1k in 2050 with 2x :/
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17:56:52  * planetmaker goes checking forums :-)
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18:45:44  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: translators * r18529 /trunk/src/lang/ (9 files): (log message trimmed)
18:45:44  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:44  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: croatian - 45 changes by UnderwaterHesus
18:45:44  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: dutch - 4 changes by habell
18:45:44  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: finnish - 42 changes by Tve4, jpx_
18:45:45  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: hungarian - 4 changes by IPG
18:45:45  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: italian - 11 changes by lorenzodv
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19:34:07  <Belugas> wow... that is a big departure...
19:34:49  <Eddi|zuHause> wtf?
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19:41:03  <Belugas> quite indeed
19:41:10  <Belugas> manque de caf? moi...
19:43:58  * planetmaker donne de caf? ? Belugas
19:44:10  <SpComb^> but man, playing with a 4x daylength is awesome, first time ever that I've actually had a network of E62/E52 engines
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19:44:41  <Sacro> i do love daylength
19:44:53  <SpComb^> although this really does require smaller levels of passenger traffic in the 1920's, because you only start out with the pre-war coaches
19:45:15  <SpComb^> it's absolutely ridiculous to have a town with 7k pop, and then you have a million trains hauling a million of those tiny tiny coaches
19:45:42  <thingwath> Hm, I could try daylenght instead of just manually setting time back occasionaly in the cheat menu. :)
19:45:45  <SpComb^> or rather, very challenging
19:46:13  <planetmaker> he :-)
19:46:17  <SpComb^> thingwath: you have to chose carefully when it comes to daylength
19:46:44  <SpComb^> but so far, having played without industries, the #1 issue is town growth
19:47:21  <SpComb^> and then when you combine it with cargodist, #2 is too many passengers, and #3 is disproportionally many passengers on intra-city tram lines
19:47:38  <SpComb^> or perhaps not so disproportionate, but unmanagement
19:47:43  <SpComb^> *unmanagement amounts of
19:48:11  <planetmaker> unmanagable?
19:49:16  <SpComb^> subconscious typo
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19:50:13  <Prof_Frink> Muphry's Law.
19:50:37  <SpComb^> you don't say
19:55:17  <Eddi|zuHause> i really don't understand how HeightMapSmoothSlopes guarantees that there are no invalid slopes...
19:58:27  <Belugas> planetmaker : du. not de :D
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19:59:34  <Eddi|zuHause> so caf? is not "good"?
19:59:47  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r18530 /trunk/src/timetable_gui.cpp: -Fix (r18304): Width property set on window instead of width.
19:59:54  <Eddi|zuHause> my french teacher always taught the rule "everything that is good is female" ;)
20:00:07  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, it's magic ;)
20:00:33  <planetmaker> oh, he :-)
20:00:50  <planetmaker> I never got du, de, des etc right ;-)
20:00:55  <Eddi|zuHause> of course my teacher was female ;)
20:02:17  <planetmaker> Belugas: but I can count the caf? :-P
20:02:26  <Belugas> Le caf? est tr?s bon.  Juste pas assez fort...
20:02:30  <planetmaker> one atom, two atom,...
20:02:46  <Belugas> Un Caf? deux caf? trois expresso, quatre toilettes...
20:02:53  <planetmaker> :-P
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20:03:49  <Belugas> un caf?, du caf?.  Une tasse de caf?
20:04:00  <peter1138> "A caf?"
20:04:11  <Belugas> A BoiRE!
20:04:13  <Muxy> Un café
20:04:14  <Prof_Frink> "Brew".
20:04:22  <peter1138> McAfee
20:04:30  <Belugas> Beer
20:04:31  <Muxy> fé
20:04:35  <Muxy> not fee
20:04:39  <Prof_Frink> Belugas: Your round.
20:04:55  <peter1138> McAf? anti-virus?
20:04:56  <Belugas> not today, wednesday i was
20:05:08  <Belugas> round -> rond -> ivre -> drunk
20:05:11  <Belugas> bwuauauaua!!!
20:05:26  <Prof_Frink> You make no sense.
20:05:53  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: does that still exist?
20:06:21  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... -14,3?C
20:06:34  <Eddi|zuHause> cooooold
20:06:41  <thingwath> whoa, time to go outside, I guess :)
20:06:44  <peter1138> McAfee does
20:06:50  * Prof_Frink wants snow
20:07:03  <Prof_Frink> thingwath: Was nice out earlier.
20:07:04  <Eddi|zuHause> i have snow
20:07:11  <Eddi|zuHause> beautiful one
20:07:19  <Eddi|zuHause> 3cm-ish
20:07:20  *** phalax [~phalax@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:07:45  <Belugas> Prof_Frink : i do.... [15:04] <Prof_Frink> Belugas: Your round.  -> You're round -> t'es rond -> t'es ivre -> you're drunk  : [15:04] <@Belugas> not today, wednesday i was
20:07:57  <Belugas> pffff.... i've got to spell it out....
20:08:18  <Prof_Frink> Belugas: You still make no sense, and it's still your round.
20:08:27  <Eddi|zuHause> Belugas: i'm still not convinced it actually makes sense ;)
20:09:06  <thingwath> Prof_Frink: earlier? it's still early enough :) only problem is that I cannot find my hat :(
20:10:43  <Prof_Frink> thingwath: Well, I was out earlier. Like the England cricket team.
20:11:19  <Prof_Frink> It was even sunny when I started
20:13:43  <thingwath> 9 pm isn't that late, trams are still running. Just... where is that hat.
20:14:30  <Prof_Frink> Trams? Trams ain't been running in *years*.
20:14:32  <Eddi|zuHause> Prof_Frink: so that was 3 days ago? :p
20:15:25  <Prof_Frink> Breathe, breathe in the air
20:16:38  <thingwath> I have plenty of trams. But not the hat.
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20:17:19  <Belugas> i do make perfect sens!
20:17:32  <Belugas> you're not just wicked and twisted to understand it!
20:18:02  <Prof_Frink> That's a reversal of normality.
20:18:27  <Eddi|zuHause> what's normal?
20:18:41  <Prof_Frink> I'm ususally two too many steps removed from reality for other people to understand, and it's *still* your round!
20:18:43  <Belugas> whatever is not realistic
20:19:48  <Eddi|zuHause> so your two steps and his two steps make four steps...
20:20:26  <Eddi|zuHause> with a wall inbetween
20:20:33  <Belugas> the count is then complete, you can resume your samba
20:20:34  <Eddi|zuHause> or an ocean :p
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20:20:58  <Belugas> hem... rumba... not samba...
20:20:59  <Belugas> sorry
20:21:19  <Prof_Frink> Mulpic.
20:21:27  <thingwath> an ocean... four steps wide!
20:21:35  <Prof_Frink> Big steps.
20:21:58  <Eddi|zuHause> seven-mile-steps
20:22:12  <thingwath> which mile? :)
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20:22:22  <Eddi|zuHause> saxon postal mile
20:22:33  <Belugas> Mile Davis1
20:22:37  <Belugas> Mile Davis!
20:22:38  <Belugas> grrrr
20:22:38  <Prof_Frink> Statute would only get you across the Straits of Dover
20:22:49  <thingwath> hm, another mile that I don't know.
20:23:13  <Prof_Frink> thingwath: Yorksher mile.
20:23:16  <Eddi|zuHause>
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20:23:33  <Belugas> Mile itaire
20:23:48  <Eddi|zuHause> 1 Mile = 2 "hours" = 9062,08m
20:24:33  <Belugas> i guess i should go back to work...
20:24:37  <Prof_Frink> Nooooooooooooo!
20:24:48  <Prof_Frink> Work is for the week!
20:25:22  <thingwath> hm, that's almost excatly the distance I have to walk to get beer, and back
20:25:25  * Eddi|zuHause should introduce Belugas to the german concept of "Freitag nach Eins"
20:25:53  <Eddi|zuHause> [meaning: fridays at 1 o'clock everybody stops working]
20:26:09  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: does that work in school too? Get a 1 for a test and a free day?
20:26:28  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: not entirely sure ;)
20:27:44  <Prof_Frink> Eddi|zuHause: 1 o'clock? That's late for me
20:29:13  <Prof_Frink> Quite a few Fridays this year finished on Thursday :)
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20:38:52  <SpComb^> is there a hotkey for remove-signal?
20:39:59  <Eddi|zuHause> r?
20:40:05  <Eddi|zuHause> s,r?
20:40:27  <Eddi|zuHause> there needs to be a hotkey for convert signal...
20:40:37  <SpComb^> yay, r
20:40:50  <SpComb^> it's nice for rail-building because you can just use Ctrl
20:41:15  <SpComb^> for convert signals you can do Ctrl-click
20:41:35  <SpComb^> although perhaps that shouldn't cycle between path signals and normal signals
20:54:59  <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb^: there's a setting for that
20:55:14  <Eddi|zuHause> block-only, path-only or both
21:00:28  <peter1138> hey what?
21:02:01  <Prof_Frink> what hey?
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21:12:29  <peter1138> who knows
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21:22:28  <SpComb^> wtf, I got the BR18, the local passenger coach, and the mainline mail van
21:22:35  <SpComb^> ENOSENSE
21:25:01  <SpComb^> ah well, I guess they come along slowly, got the mainline passenger coach now
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21:34:21  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: rubidium * r18531 /trunk/src/ (roadstop.cpp roadveh.h roadveh_cmd.cpp): -Fix [FS#3384] (r18404): for articulated road vehicles only the first part was accounted for, so for extremely short fronts and lots after it the spreading did not work as it should.
21:34:25  <SpComb^> and my trains seem to have problems finding their way into depots
21:34:36  <Rubidium> automagically?
21:35:23  <glx> Muxy: UTF-8 please :) (yeah I'm reading back)
21:35:56  <glx> <planetmaker> I never got du, de, des etc right ;-) <-- easy, "du" = "de le"
21:36:07  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: rubidium * r18532 /trunk/src/roadveh_cmd.cpp: -Codechange/Fix (r18404): don't leave the road stop between tiles, just stay on it. This prevents the rare cases where a road vehicle would stop exactly on the border where it could not load
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21:42:12  <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb^: the problem is that new wagons do not trigger a "new vehicle available" message
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21:43:53  <peter1138>
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21:43:59  <peter1138> ^ hehe... "i had a patch for that"
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21:44:45  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: well, it was not newstation-able
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21:45:51  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, could be done
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21:46:14  <Eddi|zuHause> i expect your updated patch by tomorrow, then :p
21:46:48  <glx> <@peter1138> ^ hehe... "i had a patch for that" <-- long time you didn't say that ;)
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21:47:58  <SpComb^> something's broken with the send-train-to-depot routing for me, it only works if the train is one or two signals away from the depot
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21:48:42  <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb^: there should be a setting how many pathfinder-penalties it may accumulate
21:48:53  <peter1138> hmm
21:49:37  <frosch123> only in trunk though
21:50:45  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not sure if cargodist is up to date yet
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21:59:01  <Belugas> select * from rdb$dependencies where rdb$depended_on_name = 'PROCESSOR_NUM'
21:59:21  <Belugas> select * from rdb$dependencies where rdb$field_name = 'PROCESSOR_NUM'
21:59:24  <Belugas> ho...
21:59:28  <Belugas> ooops....
21:59:29  <Belugas> sorry
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22:02:49  <Belugas> right... time to go now... loosing it
22:02:51  <Belugas> ciao all!
22:03:11  <Eddi|zuHause> have a snowy weekend!
22:10:57  <SpComb^> yeah, I'm playing with r18495 for cargodist
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22:11:37  <SpComb^> had to dump all of my BR75's in 1927 because they aren't powerful enough to pull a full 5-tile consist of local wagons :(
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22:14:43  <Eddi|zuHause> with realistic acceleration i never had problems pulling any passenger consist
22:15:12  <Eddi|zuHause> except a VT 98 with an (overweight) trailer
22:15:57  <Eddi|zuHause> a VT 98 trailer should weigh like 18t, but the passenger coach doesn't change its weight, so it's 40t
22:16:20  <Eddi|zuHause> it's "apparently" fixed in 0.9... but alas...
22:16:35  <Rubidium> you mean 0.vapourware?
22:17:55  <Eddi|zuHause> exactly... but the last time i called it that (like two days ago), he immediately contered with a sarcastic remark...
22:19:12  <Rubidium> sarcastic? I'd imagine it's just his normal way of writing
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22:27:04  <frosch123> night
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22:52:57  <thingwath> It is not that cold outside.
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23:59:39  <dexter> hi all

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