Log for #openttd on 7th January 2010:
Times are UTC Toggle Colours
00:00:18  <Tennel> only OpenSFX, and your right, i can download it manualy, but i want to use the ingame.downloader :)
00:01:15  <Zuu> I can't help you regarding what could be wrong. I've seen others having similar problems but I can't remember any case where it was resolved.
00:01:46  <Zuu> Oh, one though, do you use wifi?
00:01:58  <Tennel> nope never :)
00:02:03  <Zuu> Oh..
00:02:15  <Zuu> There is one wifi chipset that usually gets problem with OpenTTD.
00:02:17  <sawtooth> pretty sure i downloaded it manually after one failed attempt ingame
00:02:24  <sawtooth> not using wifi either
00:02:44  <sawtooth> didn't think much about the issue at the time though
00:03:10  <Ammler> opensfx might be the biggest package
00:03:23  <Ammler> so this could be the issue
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00:03:50  <Tennel> then i think its a bug
00:04:10  <sawtooth> i tend to download around 80-90kbps or so incase it is a timeout issue of sorts
00:04:10  <Ammler> yes, but it would be nice to know how to cause it
00:04:32  <Tennel> yes thats true
00:04:51  <Rubidium> Tennel: what's your (external) IP?
00:05:31  <Tennel> Rubidium:
00:07:41  <Rubidium> Tennel: it reliably fails?
00:08:52  <Tennel> Rubidium: reproducible
00:08:55  <Ammler> (i.e. after a certain amount of progress
00:09:08  <Rubidium> Tennel: what kind of download speeds do you get?
00:09:37  <Tennel> Rubidium: 45K
00:09:39  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r18747 /trunk/src/ai/ (6 files): -Codechange: add some constness to the AI code
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00:09:53  <sawtooth> someone is worse off than me.  woo!
00:10:29  <Rubidium> @calc 6.29*1024/45
00:10:30  <DorpsGek> Rubidium: 143.132444444
00:11:15  <Ammler> something like a timeout after 100?
00:11:33  <Rubidium> Ammler: idle timeout is 60 seconds
00:12:24  <Ammler> Tennel: how much does it download until it breaks?
00:13:00  <Tennel> Ammler: 6,29mb
00:13:10  <sawtooth> i'm not sure i kept my original sound set around so I can't start it up and try another download :)
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00:14:15  <Ammler> oh, you said that already?
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00:14:28  <Tennel> right
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00:16:08  <Ammler> is the speed 45 KByte or Bit?
00:16:54  <Tennel> KByte, did you think i'm to slow with my moldy woodmodem? :)
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00:17:21  <Ammler> no, because usually you mesure speed with bits
00:18:37  <Ammler> 45 Kbit might be the fastest dialin speed :-)
00:18:50  <Jara> worked for me ingame
00:19:06  <Tennel> ok, my bandwith is 400KBit
00:19:11  <Zuu> And if you want to be really pedantic, it should be a lowercase k.
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00:19:24  <sawtooth> actually, for me it was hanging up right towards the end now that I think about it
00:20:16  <sawtooth> just downloading from came in right at the 2 minute mark for me at 93.2K/s
00:21:08  <Ammler> Tennel: what if you download a lot newgrfs at once (>6.3MB)
00:21:35  <Rubidium> Tennel: could you try to download again?
00:21:36  <Tennel> Ammler: i'll try now
00:21:47  <Tennel> Rubidium: ok
00:21:48  <Rubidium> first only the big one please :)
00:21:55  <Tennel> ok
00:21:59  <Rubidium> I've made some modifications to the downloader to log more
00:22:24  <Tennel> now it's loading
00:22:40  <Ammler> hehe, the debug misterious
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00:23:40  <Jara> Might also be, if you have a 'firewall or linux machine as router' where it has a 100M/b card on one side and a 1000 on the otherto cause isues, somhow the tunnel sees it then as attack and wel :P dishes the info fromt he 1000 line. Just a thing yah might one check as well.
00:23:58  <Jara> if that makes sence >..>
00:24:48  <Tennel> Jara: no, just a small router-box
00:24:51  <Eddi|zuHause> not very ;)
00:24:58  <Rubidium> Tennel: is it already dead?
00:25:10  <Tennel> Rubidium: yes
00:25:26  <Tennel> 6,03mb
00:26:07  <Rubidium> hmm, timeout is 2 minutes, not one
00:26:41  <sawtooth> if the timeout is two minutes that likely explains my few 98-99% download attempts of opensfx :)
00:26:54  <Ammler> but idle
00:27:01  <sawtooth> hmm...then who knows
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00:28:52  <Tennel> Rubidium: for downloading 6mb i need 133.33 sec
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00:29:15  * Jara best not says how fast she gets it in >.>
00:30:21  <Tennel> I'm not able to download 10mb within 2 minutes
00:31:42  <Rubidium> Tennel: would you please retry again?
00:31:54  <Tennel> Rubidium: yes
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00:32:29  * Jara downloaded the 3mb one for the joke; and erm,. half a second >..<
00:33:27  <sawtooth> slow internet is a price you pay for living among farms.  i'm at least thankful for the DSL I do have even though it isn't as fast as I would like.
00:34:47  <Tennel> Rubidium: it seems to be working
00:37:05  <Eddi|zuHause> sawtooth: i know that feeling ;)
00:37:20  <Tennel> Rubidium: done, the download, but another error, he can not unpack
00:39:44  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r18748 /extra/masterserver_updater/src/contentserver/ (handler.cpp tcp.cpp): [MSU] -Fix: the last activity wasn't updated properly and thus one could get his/her connection killed while downloading
00:41:13  <Rubidium> Tennel: can you take a look in the content_download/data directory?
00:41:45  <Rubidium> any file ending with .gz?
00:41:51  <Tennel> Rubidium: ok, one moment, i'm downloading again
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00:44:12  <Eddi|zuHause> "do you think it's time for plan C?" - "don't you mean plan B?" - "no... plan B never works..."
00:44:16  <Tennel> Rubidium: could it be that the downloader is adding the actuel download to the gz file?
00:45:01  <Rubidium> Tennel: might be, don't know though
00:45:30  <Tennel> Rubidium: yes he does :(
00:46:05  <Rubidium> Tennel: what OS?
00:46:25  <Tennel> Rubidium: debian
00:47:05  <Rubidium> bad Debian in that case
00:47:31  <Rubidium> OpenTTD does (network_content.cpp:396) fopen(..., "wb")
00:47:49  <Rubidium> which according to the man does "w      Truncate  file  to  zero  length  or  create text file for writing."
00:48:17  <Tennel> yes, i now
00:48:43  <glx> +k ;)
00:48:55  <Tennel> right :)
00:49:38  <Tennel> now, my openttd, doesn't start anymore, i'll be back in a few minutes
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00:51:55  <sparr> sawtooth: In my example the scenario is pf.wait_for_pbs_path=255 and pf.wait_oneway_signal=(some low number)
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00:52:04  <Tennel> back
00:52:19  <sparr> sawtooth: I am aware that that is a Bad Idea(TM), and won't do it again.  But I still want to know why that one extra signal changes the behavior of reversing.
00:52:28  <sparr> and, since it's been a few hours...
00:52:42  <sparr> Turning off reversing at one type of signal but not another can cause jams.  I understand that part of this problem that I recently encountered.  Can anyone clarify why the marked signal influences the decision of the to-be-jammed train to turn around?
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00:57:34  <sparr> so many things about openttd are documented poorly or not at all :(
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00:57:44  <Tennel> Rubidium: everthink works fine now, thank you
00:58:19  <Rubidium> yay... another bug bites the dust
00:58:57  <Yexo> sparr: you can help writing the documentation
00:59:02  <sparr> Rubidium: does that construct look like "building crap"?
00:59:07  <sparr> Yexo: not until I understand a lot more
00:59:18  <Yexo> everything you learn and is not documented you acn document
01:00:33  <sparr> only if I am sure it's right
01:00:35  <sparr> which it rarely is
01:01:09  <Tennel> bye
01:01:18  <Rubidium> document this: at 2010-01-07 02:01 CET Rubidium went to bed
01:01:20  <sparr> I'm clueless.  Then someone says "foo", when really they mean "90% of the time, foo".  Then I find a counterexample and someone says "90% foo, 10% bar", when they really mean "90% foo, 9% bar, 1% baz"...
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01:01:37  <sawtooth> Rubidium: noted
01:02:08  <sawtooth> or should i say [citation needed]
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01:04:01  <sparr> sawtooth: thanks for at least letting me know that I explained the problem somewhat sufficiently :)
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01:40:34  <Terkhen> good night
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02:13:07  <gathers> I just (after some time) relearned that statements like a = (b * 4 + a) / 5 can cause overflows when a is int32 and b is uint32.. wish there was a compiler warning for that
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02:39:08  <sparr> sawtooth: problem explained by someone in #openttdcoop
02:39:36  <sparr> the reversing seems to be controlled by the type of block the train is in in some cases
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02:41:09  <sawtooth> i would suspect quite a few folks in #ottdcoop know about signals and related issues :)
02:41:32  <sparr> aye
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03:20:38  <sparr> I learned more about the mechanics of [Open]TTD from a week playing in #openttdcoop's games than in five years of playing the game alone
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06:58:07  <De_Ghosty> ottdcoop is like ottd
06:58:10  <De_Ghosty> on steroids
06:58:27  <roboboy> hello
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08:34:39  <sparr> De_Ghosty: it's a much denser collection of people who understand most of the game mechanics than I've seen elsewhere
08:34:41  <sparr> including here
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09:14:30  <Terkhen> good morning
09:23:35  <andythenorth> morning Terkhen
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10:33:45  * SpComb checking out some of his old savegames
10:33:51  <SpComb> man did I not know how to play back then
10:34:18  <SpComb> although the 1hp iron ore wagons hauling some random other wagons to passenger stations are a bit weird
10:34:24  <SpComb> not sure where I bought those
10:35:23  <Eddi|zuHause2> sounds like a missing newgrf
10:35:27  *** Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause
10:35:51  <Eddi|zuHause> probably dbsetxl, as it's the only one i know that has a 1hp engine
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10:36:34  <Eddi|zuHause> (the real power then comes from the second wagon)
10:39:08  <SpComb> quite :)
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10:45:42  <andythenorth> meh, who needs a cargo chain for 'waste' anyway?
10:47:07  <Eddi|zuHause> it's a bit out of place, gameplay wise...
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11:03:22  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: out of interest, why do you think waste is out of place?
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11:04:12  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: there's no way to penalise a city if it's not being transported
11:04:41  <andythenorth> there could be with house set support....but that's a big project :|
11:05:33  <andythenorth> mostly IRL waste is moved by the city, not the transport company?
11:06:01  <SpComb> hmm,  Roujin has a minimap-screenshot
11:07:07  <Eddi|zuHause> also transporting mail in cargodist is already problematic enough, i never managed that properly...
11:07:24  <Eddi|zuHause> but that's not really a reason ;)
11:07:27  <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause: problematic in what aspect?
11:08:24  <roboboy> here in Australia Garbage removal is contradted out to private companies by the council/shire
11:08:39  <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: in the aspect that there should always be a separation between a "global" network that does mass transport, and a "local" network that does distribution
11:09:11  <Eddi|zuHause> which can't be properly mapped into the game
11:10:00  <roboboy> maybe garbage would have to be a subsidy re-offered every year
11:10:11  <roboboy> or the transport of garbage
11:11:32  <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause: well, I assume it could
11:11:51  <SpComb> currently I'm playing with mixed trains, mostly 3:6 mail:pax
11:12:01  <SpComb> I was considering having a separate mail network next time, though
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11:18:35  * SpComb fires up VirtualBox and VisualStudio 2008
11:19:38  <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: i mean in the sense of "when i play one type of company, i don't want to be bothered with micromanaging the other type
11:20:15  <Eddi|zuHause> and "siedler 2: die n?chste generation" always crashes on me at the same point in the mission :(
11:20:28  <SpComb> well, then just don't transport any mail? :)
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11:21:00  <SpComb> I wonder what the differences between a passenger network and a mail network would be
11:21:28  <SpComb> or would it even work out in terms of liveries with the dbset
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11:22:24  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, so you need infrastructure sharing/subsidiaries as well? heh
11:23:33  <Eddi|zuHause> i recently learned my tram networks look way better with increased (= original) catchment area
11:25:44  <SpComb> hmm, I tend not to take catchment areas into account when building tram networks, they end up pretty dense
11:29:26  <SpComb> bah, had to reset my vm's admin password, since I couldn't figure out what it was :(
11:29:36  <SpComb> an administrator password on a virtual machine, bleh :(
11:32:57  <fjb> Use a virtual password.
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11:33:47  <blathijs> Eddi|zuHause: Which mission? No problems with the english version of Settlers 2: TNG so far...
11:34:01  <Eddi|zuHause> 5th mission, i believe
11:34:13  <Zuu> SpComb: Write a sticky note on your screen with the password?
11:34:38  <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: a virtual sticky note on the virtual screen? ;)
11:34:45  <blathijs> Eddi|zuHause: Hmm, didn't have any problems there..
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11:35:12  <Zuu> Eddi: hehe that would be something :-)
11:35:15  <SpComb> wouldn't help, because WS2008 is now asking me to activate it
11:35:45  <Zuu> Just activate it using your hotmail/msn account?
11:36:32  <Zuu> Have activated their Express edditions many many times with the same hotmail account, no problem.
11:36:44  <Eddi|zuHause> blathijs: main problem is, it crashes in a way that on restart, the graphics are completely messed up, so i can't play unless i restart (probably restarting X should suffice)
11:39:14  <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: there is a linux version of the settlers (opensource)?
11:39:38  <Ammler> or do you use it with wine?
11:39:41  <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: afair that doesn't have proper single player yet
11:39:50  <Eddi|zuHause> i play with wine, yes
11:40:05  <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: the open source version is called "return to the roots"
11:40:45  <Ammler> ah, I remember now, you already discussed that here once...
11:40:56  <Eddi|zuHause> (requires data files of "Siedler 2 GOLD")
11:44:22  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... download time 1h for a 20MB file...
11:44:30  <Eddi|zuHause> i need a new connection :p
11:44:39  <Ammler> maybe a 2nd :-)
11:45:05  <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: anyway "Die n?chste Generation" is the official 10 year anniversary remake
11:45:33  <Ammler> he, a nice reason to not making it abandon :-)
11:46:10  <Eddi|zuHause> basically the same gameplay, with porting to windows and a 3d graphics engine
11:46:29  <thingwath> What have I done wrong? :)
11:47:00  <peter1138> 1) out of date opengfx
11:47:03  <peter1138> 2) no orders?
11:47:20  <thingwath> Train 9 should go to Jyderod, orders are correct.
11:47:40  <peter1138> 3) maybe it's the space between the platform and signal bug
11:47:53  <Ammler> 4) reset penalties
11:48:02  <peter1138> move the signals adjacent to the platforms, see if that helps
11:48:06  <Eddi|zuHause> thingwath: what's the value of yapf.rail_pbs_station_penalty?
11:49:08  <thingwath> 800
11:49:11  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... the station shouldn't be reserved at all
11:49:26  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r18749 /trunk/src/ (ai/ai_gui.cpp lang/english.txt): -Fix [FS#3491]: the AI's name and version in the debug panel weren't properly centered
11:49:38  <Ammler> thingwath: if you remove the signal from the empty plattform, does it enter?
11:49:51  <thingwath> yes
11:50:08  <Ammler> you don't need the signals there anyway
11:50:14  <thingwath> hm, they are not necessary, but nice
11:50:14  <Ammler> well, not the fault
11:50:22  <Eddi|zuHause> thingwath: try setting the yapf.rail_pbs_cross_penalty higher than yapf.rail_curve45_penalty
11:50:45  <Eddi|zuHause> thingwath: or generally, keep the signals close to the station.
11:51:06  <peter1138> it seems to happen with really short trains
11:51:18  <peter1138> the penalty for them is less than the curve penalty or something
11:51:34  <Ammler> isn't there a station tile penalty?
11:52:02  <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: yes, but none of the station tiles is reserved, so the penalty is the same for both
11:52:04  <peter1138> yes, but neither platform is occupied, so it makes no difference
11:52:37  <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: but it can only enter the empty plattform which has a too high penalty
11:52:55  <Ammler> so the train waits until the line to the other plattform is free
11:53:04  <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: i think the same thing would happen without the station
11:53:04  <thingwath> well, it's ok with the signals closer to the platforms
11:53:18  <Ammler> silly
11:53:25  <peter1138> yeah, because then the platform is still occupied
11:53:50  <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: i believe the problem is that only one tile is reserved, so the reservation penalty is less than the penalty of two curves
11:54:13  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r18750 /trunk/src/graph_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#3492]: the cargo payment button states weren't properly set on opening the window
11:54:48  <peter1138> hmm
11:55:02  <peter1138> wonder if occupied penalty could be affected by the direction of the train
11:55:09  <Rubidium> what Eddi|zuHause says sounds plausible
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11:56:38  <Ammler> what would happen, if you rise the occupied penalty?
11:56:47  <Ammler> how is that key called?
11:56:55  <Rubidium> ...crossed...
11:57:00  <Maedhros> hi one and all
11:57:12  <SpComb> hmm... are there instructions for using OpenTTD's .dmp files in VS somewhere?
11:57:14  <Rubidium> I actually lowered the 45 degree turning penalty lately
11:57:36  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: problem is you can't efficiently resolve the train from the reservation, so you'd need to store the direction in the map
11:57:52  <peter1138> oh yes
11:58:02  <SpComb> I have the .exe, .pdb and .dmp in the same dir, and opening up the .dmp, I get a partial stack trace from openttd.exe!std::_Tree, through 'operator new' and to the system 'malloc'
11:58:18  <Rubidium> SpComb: that's basically all you'll get
11:58:26  <thingwath> increasing cross_penalty hepled too
11:58:29  <SpComb> no option to feed it the openttd source?
11:58:38  <Rubidium> SpComb: click on the stack trace
11:58:48  <SpComb> although for some reason the stack trace is incomplete
11:58:52  <Rubidium> then it'll ask for a file
11:59:25  <Ammler> thingwath: what value did you have and what have you set it now?
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11:59:59  <thingwath> from 300 to 10000 :)
12:00:12  <Eddi|zuHause> that's probably too much ;)
12:00:20  <SpComb> although, I'm guessing that an std::Tree with some kind of DistanceAnnotation type is probably from cargodist?
12:00:27  <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: what could it hurt?
12:00:47  <thingwath> I didn't realise, that Train 9 was stopped, so I kept setting it higher and higher :)
12:00:51  <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: trains taking really huge detours instead of waiting
12:02:03  <Ammler> maybe there should be a wait_for_new_path_on_cross
12:02:24  <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: what's that supposed to do?
12:02:55  <Ammler> after a certain time of waiting, rise this penalty
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12:03:19  <Ammler> so it would use another path somewhen.
12:03:32  <Ammler> time*
12:06:55  <SpComb> <-- there's all the stack trace that VS2008 shows me :/
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12:07:39  <Rubidium> are you sure it's the same version?
12:07:53  <SpComb> pretty sure
12:08:00  <Rubidium> open crash.dmp in a plain text editor and you'll find the crash.log that's generated, which contains the version
12:08:27  <SpComb> <-- the crash.log here says r18625M
12:09:00  <SpComb> yeah, the crash.dmp also says "Version:    r18625M (2)"
12:09:47  <SpComb> so I assume it's PeterT's build from
12:09:54  <Rubidium> does the build date coincide with the build date in the executable?
12:10:21  <SpComb> "Build date: Dec 24 2009 14:30:02" - where's the .exe build data?
12:10:35  <Rubidium> i.e. grep for the "Dec 24 2009 14:30:02" on the executable. If that doesn't give a match, then it's not the same binary
12:11:08  <SpComb> Binary file cargodist_mini-pack_win32_r18625/openttd.exe matches
12:11:36  <Rubidium> then likely something went horribly wrong
12:11:47  <SpComb> stack corrupted?
12:11:55  <Rubidium> something like that
12:14:14  <blathijs> Eddi|zuHause: Ah, I've rebooted to WIndows for playing Settlers so far. Haven't tried wine yet :-)
12:14:24  <SpComb> I play S2.EXE in dosbox
12:14:50  <Eddi|zuHause> blathijs: it used to run fine, we even played multiplayer
12:15:06  <SpComb> the original S2.EXE or some newer version?
12:18:00  <SpComb> Rubidium: how useful would the crash.sav be in this situation?
12:18:07  <SpComb> the .rar is missing it
12:23:31  <Eddi|zuHause> hmz... can't install the patch because it doesn't find the installed game...
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12:25:25  <Rubidium> SpComb: usually useless, because it's the save that is made after the corruption. So it wouldn't reproduce it
12:29:54  <SpComb> hmmk
12:35:54  * roboboy ponders trying FIRS
12:37:20  <SpComb> pity that cargodist manages to cause so many random crashes and assertions
12:37:51  <SpComb> fonsinchen (?) still has some work to do :(
12:42:42  <peter1138> it's trunk-ready(tm) then? ;)
12:44:17  <Ammler> SpComb: create monthly autosaves
12:44:53  <SpComb> well, it should be in trunk as an optional feature
12:45:15  <SpComb> but I think that if it was on by default, it would confuse new players a little too much...
12:45:26  <SpComb> Ammler: a month is a long time when playing with 4x daylength :)
12:45:31  <Ammler> not just newbies
12:45:38  <fonsinchen> so, what is wrong? Why don't I see any crash reports in the forums thread?
12:45:43  <SpComb> but yes, I do, and I mostly use them to recover from crashes... train crashes >_>
12:45:58  <SpComb> fonsinchen: well, seems they're getting pre-filtered through my thread now
12:46:18  <fonsinchen> how can I fix the problems if I don't know about them?
12:46:27  <SpComb> fonsinchen: +
12:46:33  <SpComb> fonsinchen: I'll tell you from now on, then :)
12:46:42  <Ammler> SpComb: doesn't the daylength patch also add a new autosave option?
12:46:52  <SpComb> Ammler: not mine, no, it probably should
12:47:19  <Ammler> weekly and daily :-)
12:48:09  <SpComb> weekly
12:48:20  <fonsinchen> Did you change any details about cargodist in your patch? For example the upper limit of short_path_saturation?
12:49:54  <SpComb> fonsinchen: no, it's purely vanilla cargodist
12:50:04  <SpComb> well, I mean
12:50:17  <SpComb> the patches there are pretty simple, they shouldn't influence cargodist
12:50:52  <SpComb> they just tweak the gameplay in terms of some side effects
12:51:41  <SpComb> but no direct changes to the cargodist code
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13:42:37  <Yexo> <- an industry as an airport, industry by andythenorth
13:44:00  <Forked> interesting. Cities own the airports while companies just move the passengers.. perhaps just buy your own hangar or something
13:51:10  <gathers> fonsinchen, the patches on doesn't seem to be generated correctly anymore, I see empty files. Just thought I'd let you know in case you'd missed it
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14:04:44  <Belugas> hi hi
14:08:56  <Zuu> ho ho Belugas
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14:15:19  <fonsinchen> gathers, certain files are empty on purpose. If the new branch doesn't add anything to its dependencies the patch is empty.
14:15:55  <gathers> fonsinchen, ah I see, sorry then :)
14:15:56  <fonsinchen> This is the case for "cargodist_xyz.diff". If you want an all-in-one patch for cargodist, you can get it in the folder against_trunk
14:17:42  <gathers> I just pull your git tree, I had missed the against_trunk folder
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14:20:49  <Ammler> [15:15] <Yexo> [14:42:37] <- an industry as an airport, industry by andythenorth <-- that is with your airport branch or trunk?
14:21:00  <Belugas> trunk of course...
14:21:04  <Belugas> what else :S
14:21:17  <Ammler> ok :-)
14:21:30  <Belugas> hehehehehe
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14:22:31  <Yexo> I'd upload the grf, but forgot to ask andythenorth for permission, not that I expect it to be a problem
14:25:30  <Ammler> you have permission, andy's work is under GPL
14:27:42  <Ammler> well, FIRS is for sure
14:27:44  <Eddi|zuHause> it's supposed to say that in every file ;)
14:27:59  <Ammler> :-)
14:28:07  <Yexo> FIRS may be, but I didn't use firs
14:28:14  <Yexo> I used part of FIRS that any send me
14:28:17  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... the s2 patch didn't help :(
14:28:24  <Yexo> and as I didn't get any licence with that, technically it's not under the gpl
14:28:29  <Belugas> waaaa!!! fucking nice extract!!!
14:28:40  <Belugas> oops... sorry.. wrong channel
14:28:41  <Yexo> now I could of course strip the relevant part from firs myself, but why go through that trouble?
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14:32:01  <Ammler> well, it looked like the survey camp from FIRS, sorry then...
14:32:58  <Yexo> Ammler: it IS the survey camp from FIRS
14:33:06  <Yexo> I just didn't base my work on FIRS :p
14:33:46  <Ammler> but my statement is based on that, that is why I am sorry ;-)
14:34:11  <Yexo> no need for that, you couldn't possible know
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14:38:17  <roboboy> how do I turn on the PBS debug reservation highlights?
14:39:17  <Yexo> advanced settings->interface->display options->show reserved tracks: on
14:39:25  <roboboy> ok
14:39:28  <roboboy> thanx
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14:52:43  <Yexo> is there an industry that uses the animation callbacks available under gpl?
14:53:05  <Eddi|zuHause> it's no use... the mission crashes every time about 15 minutes in :(
14:54:06  <roboboy> gnight
14:56:17  <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause: which mission?
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14:56:37  <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: Siedler II - Die n?chste Generation, mission 5
14:58:10  <SpComb> well, ulimited play is where it's at anyways :P
14:59:07  <Eddi|zuHause> i never ever finished the original siedler 2 missions, i wanted to try these...
14:59:21  <SpComb> hmm, I wonder how far I've played them
14:59:49  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... someone says set direct sound to emulation...
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15:12:45  <SpComb> I guess I never finished mission 5 either
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16:30:20  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r18751 /trunk/src/crashlog.cpp: -Codechange: also log the zlib version in the crash log
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16:39:18  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r18752 /trunk/src/engine_gui.cpp: -Codechange: unduplify some code
16:40:41  <Eddi|zuHause> why does no code ever get untriplified?
16:42:43  <gathers> I think it might be that you can represent untriplication as repeated unduplifications..? thus you only need unduplification
16:45:17  <Rubidium> yes, untriplification is just recursive unduplication
16:48:55  <Eddi|zuHause> but you could save one step
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16:50:43  <gathers> but then someone will request unquadruplication, unquintuplication etc.. where will it end?
16:57:24  <Eddi|zuHause> at the unmyriadification
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17:14:21  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r18753 /trunk/src/lang/ (33 files in 2 dirs): -Fix: Max TE was incorrect in the engine preview
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17:27:23  * Johnmit prods Rubidium
17:32:08  <Johnmit> admittedly this will probably interest michi_cc as well
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17:42:21  <Yexo> Johnmit: you might get a responsive if you tell them what it's about, or ask your question directly
17:42:37  <Johnmit> ah yes
17:42:39  <Johnmit> good point
17:43:14  <Johnmit> tis about the good ole mac os x port and a possible temporary solution to the problem of making builds
17:43:25  <Yexo> there is no problem making the builds
17:43:33  <Yexo> there is a problem that no-one is fixing the bugs
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17:44:25  <Johnmit> really? i thought the compile farm was causing a few of the problems?
17:45:12  <Yexo> building it on the cf causes some trouble, but that's not the reason the support has stopped
17:45:41  <Yexo> and several people have already offered to donate a mac for the cf, so that's no real problem
17:46:47  <Yexo> have you read this post completely?
17:46:57  <Yexo> that explains the problems of not having an active mac os x developer
17:47:48  <Johnmit> anyway, the suggestion was to create a topic of 'community mac os x builds' to continue providing os x builds, but highlighting the fact they are not official
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17:48:59  <Zuu> Also have an overlook of the wiki and see what OSX information it contains.
17:49:03  <Johnmit> yes I have Yexo - and I can see the problem. However I still think not providing 1.0 builds in any shape will do more harm
17:49:14  <Yexo> maybe
17:49:23  <Zuu> I mean there might be places where you want to point out the availability of unofficial builds for OS X.
17:49:25  <Yexo> but it does signify the problem, so maybe that attracts a developer
17:49:45  <Yexo> but I have no problem with a forum topic
17:50:04  <Yexo> a sticky in the development forum for example would be fine by me
17:50:09  <Yexo> Rubidium: any comments?
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17:50:29  <Johnmit> but equally, having a forum topic highlighting it even more will perhaps attract more OS X players, and one might just be willing to help...
17:50:40  <Rubidium> Johnmit: "OpenTTD is buggy" coming from lots of OS X users because there is not Mac maintainer does OpenTTD harm; not providing Mac OS X binaries only harms Mac OS X users.
17:50:43  <Zuu> development forum? Isn't it better to have it in general forum if it targets normal users?
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17:51:32  <Johnmit> indeed Zuu, and the current 'Future of Mac OS X port' topic is starting to get builds posted in it
17:51:36  <Yexo> Zuu: placing it in the development forum makes extra clear it's "in development", not official
17:52:15  <Johnmit> and I can see the current topic descending into a random mess of builds, bug reports and bug fixes
17:52:22  <Rubidium> given that we have already been yelling about it for like 4 months without any real progress, and occasionally been talking about it for the two years before that... the Mac OS X port's quality is on a landslide
17:53:34  <Rubidium> even so, 0.7.5 is not supported on 10.6
17:53:37  <Johnmit> but it looks like there is now a little progress in the correct direction. and I have not seen any specific bugs on my OS X in a while, indeed the few graphical problems that were there have now gone...
17:53:55  <Rubidium> Johnmit: open known-bugs.txt
17:55:05  <Rubidium> Johnmit: occasionally people attempting to fix a bug does not help much; there have been *many* attempts at fixing OS X bugs, yet only a few of them seem to succeed
17:55:39  <Rubidium> and even then, a little later, we get flamed because the fix isn't the right fix and breaks other things
17:58:37  <Johnmit> and you don't think highlighting it as 'community' effort rather then an 'official' effort would help (or at least reduce the flaming)?
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18:01:35  <Rubidium> Johnmit: that information gets lost *very* quickly
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18:02:43  <Rubidium> e.g. just links directly to the files on our servers, so any information on the website about it being a community build doesn't get to the user
18:03:00  <Johnmit> well, yes. the internet does have its idiots - just like the UK in snow...
18:03:01  <Rubidium> *especially* because the information on that page is years old
18:03:15  <jonty-comp> Johnmit: as in most people
18:03:17  <jonty-comp> :p
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18:04:10  <Rubidium> so some sort of semi-official build will still be seen by most of the mac users as official build
18:04:17  <Johnmit> I hadn't thought of the direct linking problem - however i wouldn't host the files on openttd
18:04:30  <jonty-comp> Rubidium: not if it isn't hosted on
18:04:33  <jonty-comp> well, hmm
18:04:49  <jonty-comp> for instance, has 'unofficial' builds of windows xchat, and that seems to work
18:05:25  <Johnmit> and admittedly making it a sticky would make it more 'official' and perhaps not help...
18:05:38  <Rubidium> jonty-comp: Johnmit's point is, at least I think it is, to still release binaries via OpenTTD's website
18:05:44  <Johnmit> nope
18:05:45  <jonty-comp> oh
18:05:47  <Johnmit> via the forums
18:06:13  <jonty-comp> but then to host it somewhere else would need someone dedicated to 'run' the port
18:06:28  <jonty-comp> and then they might as well just join the official team anyway
18:06:34  <Johnmit> at most OpenTTD would have "MacOS X is not officially supported by the developers, but some forum users have some version you can use over here"
18:07:03  <Rubidium> Johnmit: any idea how long that list would become?
18:07:08  <Rubidium> cargodist?
18:07:12  <Rubidium> daylength?
18:07:16  <Rubidium> 32bpp zoom?
18:07:25  <Rubidium> the different patch packs?
18:07:41  <jonty-comp> well, they're up to the respective developers
18:08:04  <Johnmit> as in the list of versions in the topic, or the list of patchpacks you would have to link to?
18:08:24  <Rubidium> the list of custom builds we have to link to
18:08:38  <jonty-comp> *have* to?
18:09:48  <Rubidium> yes
18:09:58  <Johnmit> i would have thought you could easily only link to macosx builds, as they would be 'clean' trunk builds - and the reason is somewhat different
18:10:29  <Johnmit> failing that even a 'MacOSX is not officially supported, please see the wiki for more info" would be sufficient and put information there
18:10:55  <Rubidium> but the iphone isn't officially supported either
18:11:09  <jonty-comp> nobody ports daylength to the iphone either
18:11:15  <Rubidium> should we link those binaries too? They're after all also 'clean' trunk builds
18:11:38  <Rubidium> or maemo, or pocketpc
18:12:02  <jonty-comp> the pocketpc port smells anyway, my PDA doesn't have enough RAM :(
18:12:42  <peter1138> if someone donates a mac to me, i'll investiage ;p
18:12:47  <peter1138> also, investigate
18:12:48  <Johnmit> point taken
18:13:14  <jonty-comp> you should set up a donations fund to buy peter1138 a Mac!
18:13:19  * jonty-comp would send ?1
18:13:29  <Rubidium> oh... peter1138 is going to do the Mac port?
18:13:38  <jonty-comp> doesn't nessecerily have to be a brand new Mac, just one that runs SL
18:13:40  <peter1138> i might not investigate much ;p
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18:14:35  <Johnmit> Rubidium - would you object to just the topic, and not linked to 'officially'
18:14:42  <Johnmit> except perhaps the wiki
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18:15:07  <Johnmit> as in a topic combining home made mac osx builds
18:15:08  <Rubidium> no, I only think you're only doing the Mac port harm in the long run
18:16:37  <Johnmit> hmmm
18:17:37  <Rubidium> like the guy posting 64 bits intel binaries without some of the libraries
18:18:23  <Johnmit> naturally the other option would be to take on the mac port - but that would need a book
18:18:34  <Johnmit> "maininting a mac port for dummies' :P
18:18:42  <peter1138> that's the only option
18:18:53  <Johnmit> if you write the book....
18:19:12  <Rubidium> not to mention that the 64 bits version is slower than the 32 bits version; Bjarni did some testing and IIRC the 64 bits binary for G5 was 20% slower than the equivalent 32 bits build and 10% slower than the 32 bits build that also works on G3 processors
18:19:15  <peter1138> we could provide the builds, but that didn't get any attention
18:19:40  <peter1138> therefore, others providing unofficial builds is not useful
18:20:04  <Johnmit> you think even a more unofficial attempt with a more 'community' effort of providing builds and bug fixes woulnd't help, at least as a short term measure?
18:20:14  <Rubidium> for what it's worth, the nightlies didn't have Mac builds for over a week before someone actually noticified us
18:20:45  <Johnmit> i suspect those of use that use nightlies compile are selfs, so wouldn't...
18:20:59  <Johnmit> *compile our selfs
18:21:08  <Rubidium> Johnmit: short term it will help; some people being happy there is a binary they can download, long term... that's a completely different story
18:21:23  <jonty-comp> I say you drop support, and if someone wants to take it upon themselves to do it themselves, good for them
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18:21:37  <Johnmit> jonty-comp - they have dropped support
18:21:43  <jonty-comp> well, good
18:21:52  <jonty-comp> keep it dropped then
18:21:58  * jonty-comp is still on the first page of the epic thread
18:22:33  <Johnmit> or at least it is dropped for all intents and purposes, can't remember if that was 'official' or not...
18:23:15  <Rubidium> Johnmit: with ~12.5% of the downloads being nightlies and 6% of the downloads being Mac, there should be about a dozen downloads of Mac nightlies every day
18:24:40  <__ln>
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18:29:58  <Zuu> If you make unofficial mac builds (which it seams is not really welcome), perhaps add a message box that shows when it starts that says that it is an unofficial build. That said, most users will not really read that dialog and it will have the same problem that it helps users in the short term but might not do so in the long term.
18:32:18  <peter1138> __ln: "It will give us unprecedented answers to the big question: how can we make air crashes more survivable?"
18:32:38  <peter1138> __ln, more like "how can we spend lots of money blowing big things up"
18:32:51  <andythenorth> evening
18:33:10  <Rubidium> but... aircrashed can be made much more survivible by simply turning around the chairs, so you're facing towards the tail of the plane
18:33:12  <__ln> both combined is even more bang for buck
18:33:30  <Rubidium> something like 30% IIRC
18:35:07  <Johnmit> Rubidium - depends on the crash, but yes - the human body can survive higher gs forces that way
18:36:00  <Rubidium> just means the aircraft can't fly with their nose pointing up (you'd fall out of the chair), so it can't use it's body as wing, so it needs more fuel to stay in the air, so tickets cost more... and that's when the idea gets shot
18:38:02  <Rubidium> they're all trying to keep stuff as cheap as they can within the rules set by the government
18:43:33  <Johnmit> errrrrr....
18:43:36  <Johnmit> "The idea for the programme grew out of the crash of a British Airways Boeing 777 at Heathrow airport in January last year."
18:43:49  <Johnmit> so nothing at all to do with
18:43:59  <Johnmit> when NASA did the exact same thing in 1984?
18:45:46  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r18754 /trunk/src/lang/ (9 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
18:45:46  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:46  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: arabic_egypt - 60 changes by kasakg
18:45:46  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: croatian - 57 changes by UnderwaterHesus
18:45:46  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: dutch - 1 changes by habell
18:45:48  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: french - 1 changes by glx
18:45:48  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: korean - 2 changes by junho2813
18:51:27  <__ln> nothing
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19:11:38  <Yexo> George: you'd make debugging your problems _a lot_ easier if you could provide a small grf that demonstrates the problem
19:12:11  <Yexo> for example for FS#3495 a grf with only a single house that only checks house var 65, and only the callback for building is enabled
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19:13:15  <Zuu> Yexo: Perhaps there should be something written to AI Log as well as gamelog if the AI in the savegame can't be found and a random AI is picked?
19:13:35  <andythenorth> Yexo: you have my permission to publish the grf ;)
19:13:42  <Yexo> ok, thanks :)
19:13:44  * andythenorth reading thegrebs
19:14:07  <andythenorth> gpl it if you want to put a license.txt with it
19:14:15  <andythenorth> otherwise release it under the famous 'no license'
19:14:29  <Yexo> I'd prefer gpl
19:14:58  <andythenorth> that's fine by me
19:15:15  <andythenorth> post the source with it?
19:15:17  <Yexo> I've also abused the wind turbine as sea airport where ships can stop
19:15:51  <frosch123> oh, do they load H2 there?
19:16:14  <Yexo> it's not an industry
19:16:24  <Yexo> that's the next step, code that as industry
19:16:33  <andythenorth> Yexo: that's neat, because I needed to put a wind turbine at sea :)
19:16:37  <Yexo> or maybe I should first enable the statemachine callback for ships
19:16:52  <frosch123> :)
19:17:16  <frosch123> is it a different callback, or does it have to figure out the vehicletype itself?
19:17:27  <Yexo> I was planning on using the same callback
19:17:39  <Yexo> vehicletype can be found by var 80
19:17:40  <frosch123> yeah, might be more flexible
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19:21:34  * andythenorth cloning new airports hg repo
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19:27:25  <Zuu> If I want to pause the game from some code where _current_company is an AI player I though I could temporary set _current_company to _local_company and use a DoCommand to pause the game. But either that isn't working or I'm trying to execute the DoCommand in the wrong way.
19:27:26  <Zuu>
19:28:07  <Zuu> (I've also tried with the commented out DoCommand line)
19:29:36  <Yexo>  * @param p2 1 pauses, 0 unpauses this mode
19:29:46  <Yexo> p2 = 0 in your code, so you try to unpause the game
19:29:57  <Zuu> Oh, thank you.
19:30:27  <Zuu> My first DoCommand. :-)
19:30:38  <Yexo> it doesn't matter what _current_company actually is
19:30:46  <Yexo> so you can leave those lines out
19:30:50  <Zuu> Ok, then I remove those lines.
19:30:54  <George> Yexo: FS#3495 - file added, but some other starnge bug appears - the house is not drawn
19:32:17  <Yexo> thanks George
19:32:22  <Yexo> and I'll find a way around the not drawing
19:39:28  <George> Yexo: FS#3495 - one more file
19:39:41  <Zuu> Oh, nice. The break on string now works. Now it is "just" to fix a graphical issue and possible add a label before the text box and maybe a "continue" button after the text box.
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19:49:08  <dragonhorseboy> any of you ever used that 'reduced passenger payment' grf?
19:51:02  <DJNekkid> no, use 2cc set instead to counteract that :P
19:51:53  <DJNekkid> hehe
19:52:59  <dragonhorseboy> do you even know where the mail parameter is or the grf was never ever actually finished?
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19:55:47  <dragonhorseboy> and btw djnekkid I kinda liked the metro side of 2cc but otherwise think they just heaped WAY too many rail/erail locomotives in it for any random single year
19:56:03  <dragonhorseboy> ^_^
19:58:00  <dragonhorseboy> djnekkid but of course .. couple with that most players keep leaving ottd to 'normal' for towngrowth I always think that the only real rail pax grf for any MP's is japanset
19:59:03  <DJNekkid> dragonhorseboy: i am the programmer of the 2cc set :P
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19:59:24  <DJNekkid> or coder or what you prefer
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20:00:15  <DJNekkid> :D
20:00:23  <andythenorth> dragonhorseboy has an interesting point
20:00:38  <andythenorth> I've been trying to figure out for newgrf sets: is more better?
20:00:38  <dragonhorseboy> and it is ? andythenorth
20:01:29  <dragonhorseboy> andythenorth heh well some trainsets I do like but 2cc seem to be something that seem too overheaped.. I mean start a new random map in any 1920-to-2000 year that comes off top of your head and look at the rail buy list.. likely its 20+ locos and most are similar
20:01:54  <frosch123> andythenorth: i guess you need to divide the more by gametime
20:02:13  <dragonhorseboy> dbsetxl does kinda have a bit long mix during the 50-60's but thats reasonable seeing they were just about switching from steam/electric to more variety of diesel/electric for a while before the buy list becomes short again
20:02:52  <andythenorth> the US sets have a blitz in the 50s-60s, then it's just a couple of SD70s etc from about 1990 onwards
20:02:59  <Terkhen> I prefer newgrfs with a small amount of vehicles, I tend to get lost with larger ones
20:03:20  <dragonhorseboy> andythenorth.. heh well yeah 50-60's seem to be a typical period of experinmentals and 'many new fleets to replace worn out one'
20:03:25  <Johnmit> depends how you play andy
20:03:28  <frosch123> Terkhen: but you would not have that problem, if they were available shorter :p
20:03:51  <andythenorth> with HEQS I tried to space out the dump trucks carefully
20:03:52  <Johnmit> if you are strictly realistic, then you need more
20:04:07  <dragonhorseboy> andythenorth but of course in the 50's the usa diesels were kinda still built like steam locomotives where you had different classes for different jobs .. it took a while to finally start using more uniform general purpose locomotives
20:04:38  <andythenorth> hmmm FP9?
20:04:39  <DJNekkid> dragonhorseboy: there are an upcomeing 2.0 of the 2cc set btw..
20:04:59  <Johnmit> if you don't really care about traction efforts and what not then a small quantity is perhaps better
20:05:10  <andythenorth> I also keep asking myself if I should put a parameter on HEQS to hide the bulldozers by default...
20:05:24  <dragonhorseboy> andythenorth.. FP9's? well that would be a hard one .. depends on how its geared in first place
20:05:45  <dragonhorseboy> FP9's were usually passengers but if regeared you could find them on shorter freights somehow
20:05:56  <DJNekkid> and in version 2.0 will more engines go out of production, and wagons will have a economical speedlimit
20:06:17  <DJNekkid> so it will encourage people to use slower engines etc...
20:06:24  <dragonhorseboy> the F40PH were ordered as passenger power but as they start getting less needed (replaced by modern powers) many of them could end up on freight duty
20:06:58  <andythenorth> in Pikka's UK sets there are not many engines, it's kind of fine
20:06:58  <dragonhorseboy> djnekkid maybe you need to re-spec the Hudson because its too easy to only use these alone on any random trains due to its TE
20:07:09  *** TrueBrain_ [~truebrain@] has joined #openttd
20:07:20  <dragonhorseboy> andythenorth well I don't like ukrs alone on my own to be honest
20:07:33  <andythenorth> really?
20:08:59  <dragonhorseboy> andythenorth .. especially could someone explain to me why I have to make a quite long platform+train just to be able to carry only 360 passengers when in most other grfs this could be quite easily halved in length with no capacity loss
20:09:00  <Terkhen> I prefer "lite versions"... I got bored of old wagons new cargos but I can't find a simple but not too much train grf to replace it
20:09:46  <dragonhorseboy> neverminding 'commuter' classed consists in japanset where 800 passengers can board and dislodge in only a few quick days instead of taking a long time
20:10:03  <Terkhen> I guess I should have a few test games
20:10:41  <DJNekkid> dragonhorseboy: note on the Hudson is ... noted :)
20:10:50  <andythenorth> dragonhorseboy: Pikka and DanMacK artificially reduce capacities - it helps those of us who like to see longer trains
20:11:01  <andythenorth> it is a pain in the arse for balancing against though
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20:11:10  <andythenorth> :D
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20:11:48  * Terkhen wonders how long his game will be until he thinks of something new to code
20:11:49  <dragonhorseboy> andythenorth the problem is ottd towns don't understand this so its totally useless trying to really do pax with ukrs at all
20:12:20  <dragonhorseboy> especially when it seem to require doubleheaded eurostars with 20+tiles long station platforms when the same thing in japanset can use slow rolling stocks on 6-tiles stations
20:12:45  <andythenorth> dragonhorseboy I think that's kind of the point....longer trains = preferred by some of us ;)
20:12:47  <dragonhorseboy> or even in canset its still a short station length for high station loads
20:12:56  <andythenorth> it's just a visual thing as far as I know
20:13:09  <DJNekkid> or a TGV Duplex :P
20:13:14  <DJNekkid> and even fast :)
20:13:27  <dragonhorseboy> how do you EVEN make space-reasonable junction for 21-tiles-long trains spaced only a few tiles apart headspace?
20:13:34  <dragonhorseboy> djnekkid I want slow actually
20:14:00  <andythenorth> dragonhorseboy: I think I'm the wrong kind of player for that question...
20:14:42  <Eddi|zuHause> dragonhorseboy: i think the real answer to that should be the game enforcing a higher distance between trains
20:15:17  <dragonhorseboy> djnekkid the only real times I'll buy tgv's is for when its for a decidated sparsely-signalled highspeed line to connect nonstop between two large cities to fill in people that didn't want to use the always-stopping stocks
20:15:29  <dragonhorseboy> eddi or using a different grf in case of me ;)
20:15:58  <DJNekkid> dragonhorseboy: thats what they are for :)
20:16:03  <Hirundo> Exactly, you're not forced to use a NewGRF you don't like, this isn't north korea
20:16:06  <dragonhorseboy> if using ukrs only for freight (aside to mail which isn't as bad too) its ok for a grf
20:16:19  <Eddi|zuHause> dragonhorseboy: anway, i typically use a patch, not a grf, to reduce passenger generation
20:16:36  <dragonhorseboy> djnekkid but my tgv usually only can share 5-10% of the station loading .. the remaining always pile up into the frequent length-short stopper trains ;)
20:16:45  <Eddi|zuHause> dragonhorseboy: the grf cannot influence houses from other grfs, for example
20:17:43  <DJNekkid> do you play with cargod(e/i)st ?
20:17:55  <Eddi|zuHause> occasionally
20:18:10  <dragonhorseboy> heh hmm one time I managed to get a very busy japan commuter network (basically purely 90/99km/h rated 'commuter' classed emus) going .. it was just crazy when finally done, what with almost no free headspace anywhere not even at the 4-way junctions
20:18:25  <dragonhorseboy> almost every train always were fully loaded to the hilt without asking
20:19:04  <dragonhorseboy> sure earned way too much money (footnote: almost all stations were only 4x4 ones)
20:20:36  <dragonhorseboy> andythenorth that reminds me of something tho...
20:21:03  <andythenorth> ?
20:21:31  <dragonhorseboy> one time I managed to run three EM2 (it was the listless ukrs expansion grf) on a single long tanker train (half oil, half plastic from the refinery) over 200+ tiles distance
20:21:34  <peter1138> dragonhorseboy, have you ever been on a british train? ;)
20:21:47  <dragonhorseboy> someone mentioned "american style in british?? bloody hell!!!" lol :P
20:22:22  <dragonhorseboy> it was I think 30+ cars (equally split to both cargo types) each on these four trains hehe
20:22:48  <andythenorth> meh
20:23:02  <andythenorth> dragonhorseboy:
20:23:18  <fonsinchen>  SpComb: In you say you can load the dump from that crash report. Can you tell me which binary it belongs to?
20:23:20  <dragonhorseboy> course if it had been a non-ukrs grf it might had just been one single heavy freight electric loco instead. thats for another day tho
20:23:38  <SpComb> fonsinchen:
20:23:48  <andythenorth> dragonhorseboy: sorry, not a useful link I posted above
20:24:23  <fonsinchen> thanks
20:24:29  <dragonhorseboy> andythenorth I always did wondered what was the eventual problems with the articulated steam locomotives that british roostered for a short time
20:24:43  <dragonhorseboy> both LMS and LNER as I think I recall .. one class was U1
20:26:16  <SpComb> dragonhorseboy: oh hey, we were talking about my game earlier:
20:27:21  <andythenorth> dragonhorseboy:,1564189
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20:29:32  <andythenorth> dragonhorseboy:
20:30:51  <Zuu> Ooops, OpenTTD was not so happy when I removed the scrollbar :-)
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20:33:22  <dragonhorseboy> spcomb nice to see someone actually uses ISR somewhat properly
20:33:35  <dragonhorseboy> and I see you do same farm style as me .. grain+livestock on each platform
20:36:17  <Ammler> SpComb, is the script for the giant screenshot viewer somewhere available?
20:36:47  <dragonhorseboy> btw spcomb if this is the kind of network you players always create I so want to join into the game when you upload a new server :D
20:37:16  <dragonhorseboy> its not exactly 100% same styles as what I often do but thats not the point heh
20:37:50  <SpComb> dragonhorseboy: Industrial stations? Well mostly, I built the passenger network, and then my friend built the freight stuff (under my guidance)
20:38:18  <SpComb> Ammler: sure, the source code isn't secret - - but I can't really promise anything as regards it yet
20:39:25  <SpComb> dragonhorseboy: and that map was generated with zero industries
20:40:13  <dragonhorseboy> spcomb heh well occassional freight isn't that bad I'm sure ;)
20:40:26  <dragonhorseboy> considering it often can stay seperated from the busy pax lines without being completely detached
20:41:00  <SpComb> yeah, it's mostly separate with some overlap
20:41:41  <dragonhorseboy> btw do you use electrification all the times or its a mix of diesel haul/mu?
20:41:53  <SpComb> slow electrification
20:42:01  <SpComb> the northern mainline there is still diesel
20:42:24  <SpComb> recycled V200's from the F-train services in the '60s
20:42:45  <dragonhorseboy> heh thats what I thought.. I was thinking "hmm decidated freight lines this time?" till I saw the first non-electrified station and had to look some more to then sight these
20:42:54  <dragonhorseboy> V200s...hey that reminds me of something else..
20:43:14  <SpComb> there's plenty of non-electrified track left around the edges
20:43:46  <andythenorth> opinions?  a FIRS 'help' industry - 1 per map, uses industry window to explain basics of FIRS
20:44:03  <dragonhorseboy> the last two model train magazines I picked up .. one of them was a nice O layout using mostly Lenz stuffs (with two Kiss) and one of the loco used was a V36
20:44:24  <dragonhorseboy> looked like a nice small diesel loco for both passenger (old 2-axle coaches) or freights in one. too bad dbsetxl didn't include that one
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20:44:45  <dragonhorseboy> spcomb I did kinda like the V100 and V200's tho of course
20:45:12  <SpComb> V100s only really work well for flatter lines
20:45:16  <dragonhorseboy> seem to rarely use them grf-wise myself tho
20:46:01  <SpComb> V200's are great, the V200+F is a major service - V160's are kind of meh because they're identical to the V200 - only really ended up buying them to replace the V200's once they started growing too old
20:46:17  <SpComb> or for other minor non-electrified services
20:46:25  <dragonhorseboy> btw spcomb if you didn't know .. the first diesel-hydraulic that was tried, only one was built and it didn't have much working life
20:46:32  <dragonhorseboy> hmm hang on I think it was in the same sec..
20:46:46  <SpComb> V160?
20:47:03  * andythenorth lost in the train chat :P
20:47:38  <SpComb> the V160's in the DBSet, it's a silly little diesel that you get before the war with only, like, 15 years of lifetime
20:48:56  <Terkhen> andythenorth: how much text can you put there? I think a reference to a README would be better
20:49:33  <andythenorth> ok, so imagine this: you're a Bananas player.  Where is the readme.txt?
20:49:54  <andythenorth> I don't even know where bananas puts my grfs
20:50:00  <andythenorth> I could search :)
20:50:07  <dragonhorseboy> V16 .. then seem (not sure) to be reclassed to V140
20:50:41  <dragonhorseboy> it was rated for 1400hp (there were several different propsals forwarded at same time .. varying from 1600hp goods to 2500hp express powers)
20:50:45  <Terkhen> probably inside a tar file that the user can't open without winrar or something like that, yes
20:51:35  <Terkhen> I suppose it depends on how much text can fit
20:51:47  <andythenorth> or perhaps solving the root cause would be better
20:51:55  <andythenorth> my 'Help" industry suggestion is a bit sucky
20:52:13  <Terkhen> which is?
20:52:57  <andythenorth> ....create a "Help Industry" ;)  ....that only benefits my FIRS set, and it's a bit weird
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20:53:13  <andythenorth> Linking to the web isn't a solution either
20:53:29  <sparrL> always!
20:53:48  <dragonhorseboy> spcomb anyway managed to look at most of the map now...interesting
20:54:03  <dragonhorseboy> spcomb do you ever use steamers early on? just wondering
20:54:04  <Terkhen> I meant what is the root cause of needing help there.
20:54:17  <dragonhorseboy> lol re the 'was coal' sign :p
20:54:26  <sparrL> dragonhorseboy: bah @ early.  i still have steam buses in 2100 :)
20:54:50  <andythenorth> Terkhen: I guess some grfs are quite intricate....cargo chains, industry behaviour, wagon speed limits, parameters etc etc
20:54:50  * dragonhorseboy fines sparrL for dangerous overpatched old rusty buses
20:54:52  <dragonhorseboy> :P
20:55:08  <andythenorth> Canset for example has a really nice pdf which is actually worth reading
20:55:24  <andythenorth> maybe the root cause is "grfs are too complex" :P
20:55:41  <dragonhorseboy> andythenorth well it has some parameters that needs to be set for certain gameplays .. neverminding re TTRS
20:56:05  <dragonhorseboy> and beside the buy list doesn't always make it obvious to re placing locos on rear of the train etc
20:56:18  <Terkhen> yes... but there is no "nice" way of displaying help or a readme ingame... when coding the raise landscaping costs grf I missed more space at the NewGRF window, and it is not a complicated grf
20:56:31  <sparrL> dragonhorseboy: on my list of undocumented things that I plan to source dive for is breakdown chances and reliability factors...  partially because i like keeping things in service as long as possible
20:57:04  <dragonhorseboy> spcomb hm?
20:57:05  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: yexo * r18755 /trunk/src/map.cpp: -Fix [FS#3495] (r14847): CircularTileSearch skipped a few tiles close to the starting tile
20:57:27  <andythenorth> Terkhen: I also find the text limited
20:57:31  <Yexo> George: thanks for the test grf, that help a lot
20:57:37  <Yexo> the small one I mean :)
20:58:14  <Terkhen> probably even more limited, I only had to explain four simple parameters :P
20:59:45  <frosch123> there should be a way to add texts to grf parameters just like to noai settings (i.e. paramname, description, min/max, enumerations, ...)
20:59:59  <dragonhorseboy> spcomb btw I think I finally spotted a group of V200's .. seem to be close to a station named 'chembridge woods' or something like that
21:00:01  <sparrL> dragonhorseboy: I like using vehicles for a long time, but there is no good documentation on how age affects a vehicle.  Even the gurus in openttdcoop had no idea that age increases running costs until very recently.
21:00:15  <andythenorth> sparr: does it?
21:00:18  <sparrL> yep
21:00:32  <sparrL> we ran into a problem with inflation causing our trains to become unprofitable
21:00:32  <andythenorth> I'm not convinced
21:00:35  <dragonhorseboy> sparrl you don't know that vehicle age affects station rating when competing too? ;)
21:00:42  <sparrL> renewing the trains cut the running costs in half
21:00:55  <andythenorth> sparr: sure that wasn't a feature of the set?
21:01:20  <sparrL> 50% sure.  I would test further but I plan to source dive to get the answer instead.
21:01:34  <sparrL> This is one of the things that I want a comprehensive reference for, not a series of guesses and checks
21:02:11  <dragonhorseboy> btw spcomb I haven't even been able to spot one single VT-11 anywhere .. or was that on purpose? lol :P
21:02:27  <sparrL> dragonhorseboy: yes, but almost no one keeps their vehicles young enough for that to matter
21:02:43  <dragonhorseboy> sparrl well I did
21:03:15  <sparrL> I *might* in a seriously competitive game
21:03:16  <andythenorth> sparrL: it's worth knowing because some grf authors have discussed making older vehicles cost more
21:03:19  <dragonhorseboy> any trains showing red numbers were either on short life or due for replacement in next few years
21:03:36  <andythenorth> sparrL:'s always worth avoiding unnecessary nfo :)
21:03:53  <sparrL> dragonhorseboy: you only get a rating bonus if the vehicle is <3 years old.  that's far lower than the normal replacement lifetime of any vehicle
21:03:55  <dragonhorseboy> I would have to agree .. I like the 'old costs more' feature ;)
21:05:00  <sparrL> even assuming the station rating info on the wiki is correct, which I expect it is not, it is incomplete in some ways
21:05:00  <dragonhorseboy> if you can't be arsed to review your network over time why should you bother demand your trains keep running cheaply anyway basiclaly? :)
21:05:29  <dragonhorseboy> worst I've had tho was locos being only 2-5 years old and already being targetted for massive replacement
21:05:44  <dragonhorseboy> talk about bad timing in the purchasing environment heh
21:06:50  <sparrL> if you want to max the station rating you have to replace every 3 years anyway
21:06:59  <sparrL> speaking of...
21:07:18  <dragonhorseboy> I generally don't bother because 90+% is already too good enough anyway
21:07:29  <sparrL> I learned a couple of days ago that you can give a train orders to refit.  Has anyone done that in a seriously profitable way?  I can imagine a few situations where it could work, but they would be rare.
21:07:46  <sparrL> 90% is hard to get with slow vehicles
21:08:17  <dragonhorseboy> sparrl not if one's already waiting for others to exit. as can be proven with ukrs already
21:08:42  <dragonhorseboy> I actually had 91-93% rating at one of the farm while the 0-8-0's were the only heavy freight power around
21:08:55  <sparrL> even with trains always waiting and always in the station (multiple paltforms) i still have trouble getting over 80-85%
21:09:08  <dragonhorseboy> hm .. differences in styles and scheduling I guess maybe
21:09:40  <sparrL> I want to know, not "I guess maybe"
21:09:45  * dragonhorseboy wonders if spcomb is busy
21:12:02  <sparrL> 17% for speed (153km/h+), 51% for keeping trains in the station, 16% for keeping the station free of waiting cargo.  84% is the baseline "best"
21:12:25  <sparrL> to get better than that you need very young trains, or a statue, or an ad campaign
21:12:36  <sparrL> unless, and this is the big catch, the wiki is wrong :)
21:13:04  <dragonhorseboy> sparrl hm so what were my 0-8-0's doing being years old and still able to catch minor 90+%'s .. I guess the wiki needs some rework ;)
21:13:08  <sparrL> 0-8-0 is much slower than that, so if you were getting 80%+ with 0-8-0s then I really want to know how
21:14:36  <dragonhorseboy> I do admit that I have never ever seen 98% one single time at all lol .. would be a bit too impratical :P
21:14:55  <sparrL> is the best "math" documentation i've seen for openttd...  i aim for that to be the *minimum* level
21:15:17  <sparrL> even if the numbers are wrong, it tells which source files they are from
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21:16:18  <andythenorth> Yexo: compiling airports branch failed.  dunno if it's just a mac issue.  Want a paste?
21:16:27  <Yexo> yes please
21:16:33  <sparrL> what I'd love to see is a level of documentation similar to nethack...
21:16:39  <Yexo> I'm only testing with msvc,so it's possible that gcc can't compile it atm
21:16:48  <SpComb> dragonhorseboy: of course, there's still dozens of BR01's in the depots
21:17:28  <SpComb> dragonhorseboy: indeed, no VT-11's
21:18:20  <andythenorth> Yexo:
21:18:27  <dragonhorseboy> spcomb hmm any reason or not sure? I've always ran many VT-11's myself
21:18:31  <andythenorth> it's pretty long - fail is at the end of course
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21:19:38  <sparrL> I continue to be annoyed at the "% transported" misnomer for industries
21:19:40  <Yexo> error is valid
21:19:49  <sparrL> if there's not a bug filed on that, I'm going to
21:19:52  <SpComb> dragonhorseboy: I went directly from V200+F -> BR103+TEE
21:19:59  <SpComb> no diesel TEE in between
21:20:05  <dragonhorseboy> oh ok
21:20:13  <dragonhorseboy> spcomb what year did you start this current game in again?
21:20:16  <andythenorth> sparrL: what's the issue with % transported?
21:20:23  <sparrL> it's wrong
21:20:30  <sparrL> it has nothing to do with the % that was transported
21:20:39  <sparrL> it appears to be linked to station ratings
21:20:43  <SpComb> dragonhorseboy: 1921
21:20:57  <Yexo> andythenorth: can you pull and try to compile again?
21:20:57  <dragonhorseboy> sparrl actually its sorta averaging over time so if your station managed to hold 84-90% rating then the industry would pick some number in that range
21:21:20  <dragonhorseboy> spcomb ah jeeze .. really starting with only BR92 and E62 alone?
21:21:52  <SpComb> well, yes
21:22:28  <dragonhorseboy> spcomb to be honest anyway when I play dbsetxl on my own I often start in 1926 to anywhere in the 30's
21:22:29  <sparrL> dragonhorseboy: right, and that 84-90% has almost nothing to do with the % that gets transported
21:22:55  <dragonhorseboy> I'll just admit that I'm not too used to dealing with these <50km/h rail trains on my own you know
21:23:02  <andythenorth> Yexo: [SRC] Compiling airport.cpp
21:23:17  <andythenorth> Users/andy/Documents/workspace/airports.hg/src/table/airport_defaults.h:433: warning: missing braces around initializer
21:23:23  <sparrL> dragonhorseboy: you could transport 90% of the production and get "50% transported" (or less).  vice versa is less likely and less extreme.
21:23:39  <dragonhorseboy> if I started 1926 .. well .. its often like BR152 on fair small pax lines and still using the E62 for light freights (eg a 96 tonnes coal mine)
21:23:40  <andythenorth> yexo that message is repeated x9, but compile continues
21:24:15  <andythenorth> few more compile warnings.  I'll paste when it's done...
21:24:21  <Yexo> ok, great
21:25:09  <Eddi|zuHause> <sparrL> dragonhorseboy: right, and that 84-90% has almost nothing to do with the % that gets transported <-- so what is your alternate suggestion?
21:25:21  <dragonhorseboy> spcomb so the game is in 1987 now correct?
21:25:35  <sparrL> dragonhorseboy: without using crashes (which makes it trivial to accomplish) you could engineer a situation where you are transporting 100% of the monthly production of an industry, and the "% transported" is zero
21:25:35  <andythenorth> yexo game boots....haven't tried the airport grf yet.  here's the paste:
21:25:37  <Eddi|zuHause> one that significantly surpasses the "it's always been this way" argument
21:26:21  <sparrL> Eddi|zuHause: well, I'd love to see an actual "% transported" statistic, but that would change the way people have to deal with industries.  in the short term, I'd just like to see it relabeled in the game and the documentation
21:26:28  <SpComb> dragonhorseboy: 1990
21:26:35  <sparrL> instead of "% transported" call it "service level" or something
21:26:38  <SpComb> the point where you start feeling frustrated again
21:26:44  * dragonhorseboy jumps another three years
21:26:52  * SpComb is currently trying to rework a mainline to fit ICE's
21:27:06  <dragonhorseboy> spcomb hmm yeah my favorite 201km/h locos are out that year
21:27:21  <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: "realistically", you'd build a new mainline for ICEs and fiddle them into the existing stations
21:28:23  <Yexo> thanks andythenorth, the warnings are fixed now
21:29:29  <andythenorth> hey, the newgrf filter searches more than just the file name :)
21:29:40  <dragonhorseboy> spcomb sometimes in certain games I often have BR110's for the various decent pax services (save buying up VT11's one year later for smaller lines heh) .. and when the BR103 comes out .. most of the times the BR110's are almost all retired by then
21:30:09  <Zuu> How do you edit a template on the wiki?
21:30:10  <dragonhorseboy> sometimes I do end up with the BR120's but its a bit odd to have different TE ratio than the BR103's
21:30:28  <Zuu> Eg, what is the URL schema to access the templates?
21:31:03  <Zuu> Oh, /Teplate:name
21:31:03  <Yexo> Template::templatename IIRC
21:31:09  <Zuu> Thanks
21:31:39  <Zuu> I tried with /Template/name and /Templates/name
21:31:54  <Zuu> And then I got the idea to try with :
21:32:07  <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause: yeah, this is a station with a diagonal pax+freight line to it, so reworking that is difficult
21:32:28  <Zuu> I added a wiki page that documments the steps to take to add an edit box to a window.
21:32:32  <SpComb> <-- this area, with the new ICE mainline coming in from the SE
21:32:41  <SpComb> going to Hindston South
21:33:31  <Terkhen> my game is finished, I found a bug in one of my patches :P
21:33:38  <dragonhorseboy> spcomb anyway if you don't mind me commenting one more time .. I sometimes do add ICE1 on new decidated lines (avoiding the BR103 traffics) but more than often its only a tiny roost of ICE1's and never any of the newer stuffs or even the TD ones
21:34:49  <Zuu>
21:35:47  <Yexo> OrderPizzaWindow :)
21:35:52  <Yexo> nice page Zuu
21:36:04  <glx> nice indeed
21:36:07  <Sacro> does it link to dominos?
21:37:04  <Zuu> Yexo: Used FooBarWindow first, but couldn't make it clear what the would be the widget name in the name and what is the window name, so I went for something less abstract.
21:37:07  <sparrL> Everquest had /pizza in-game
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21:38:18  <glx> Zuu: wrong widget ID in OnMouseLoop I guess
21:38:33  <SpComb> dragonhorseboy: I'm planning on having separate ICE routes and BR103+IC routes
21:38:42  <dragonhorseboy> :)
21:38:47  <SpComb> dragonhorseboy: so I'm planning a major ICE fleet
21:38:48  <Zuu> glx: Thanks for spotting that.
21:39:01  <SpComb> to replace the three dozen BR103's running TEE services now
21:39:08  <dragonhorseboy> spcomb often by then when I finally add the small ICE1 lines I'm usually soon then already stopping with the map because its as networked as I even can be bothered with heh
21:39:24  <dragonhorseboy> there isn't much after the ICE1's .. just small speedup in non-ice locomotives so .. well yeah
21:39:31  <SpComb> I've left myself plenty to do
21:39:48  <dragonhorseboy> heh I'm not the kind to hook up everything on a map .. so to our own styles of course ;)
21:40:41  <andythenorth> Yexo: new airport branch / survey camp airport both appear fine so far
21:40:54  <Zuu> hmm, maybe I should break a few more code lines.
21:41:46  <dragonhorseboy> spcomb I noticed you're only using rails alone with just a few ships .. is that right?
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21:43:22  <Eddi|zuHause> man... i'm so frustrated about this crash...
21:43:53  <andythenorth> SpComb: can I sell you on the idea of some trucks :D
21:44:02  <dragonhorseboy> andythenorth only if its from germanrv.grf first :P
21:45:46  <SpComb> dragonhorseboy: plenty of trams
21:46:10  <dragonhorseboy> spcomb heh ok
21:46:12  <sparrL>  <-- amazingly useful information
21:47:24  <dragonhorseboy> who stuff people onto non-sleeper trains that travel 700+ tiles anyway? :P lol as if
21:48:00  <andythenorth> dragonhorseboy: dump trucks *are* available in Germany ;)
21:48:08  <sparrL> i've made ~2000 tile pax deliveries on a regular basis
21:48:26  <dragonhorseboy> andythenorth germanrv.grf does have dump trucks? ;)
21:48:26  <sparrL> but that's moot, the effects of the delivery math applies to all cargo, not just pax
21:49:05  <andythenorth> dragonhorseboy: not *proper* dump trucks :)
21:49:13  <dragonhorseboy> andythenorth...HEQ then ;)
21:49:18  <SpComb> now then, first ICE1 on the move
21:50:04  <sparrL> Eddi|zuHause: your thoughts on rewording "% transported"?
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21:50:42  <Eddi|zuHause> sparrL: i haven't seen you making a conclusive suggestion yet
21:51:10  <sparrL> Eddi|zuHause: just change the wording.  "Service Level" is my best suggestion, but I'm not a ui-wording guy, I'm sure there's a better name for it
21:51:35  <sparrL> anything is better than the current completely inaccurate term
21:52:13  <Eddi|zuHause> that is not an argument...
21:52:38  <Eddi|zuHause> either you come up with something really convincing, or it'll stay like it is.
21:53:15  <sparrL> oh, the reasoning?  because it is hella confusing to players who haven't figured out that it's wrong.  i've been playing seriously for months, and casually for years, and didn't know until a few days ago when someone finally explained it to me
21:53:54  <Yexo> then please write a nice description on what it actually is on the wiki
21:53:56  <sparrL> it's just wrong.  the words it says are not what it means.  if the tooltip for the 'Close' button was 'Click here for help', that would be the same type of bug
21:54:02  <andythenorth> I've never figured it out either.  I just ignore it
21:54:03  <Eddi|zuHause> not the reasoning against the existing one, the reasoning for the new version
21:54:05  <sparrL> Yexo: working on it, so far no one I've talked to knows
21:54:06  <Yexo> if you can start with that then other new players can read your description and understand immediatly
21:54:14  <Yexo> knows what?
21:54:19  <Eddi|zuHause> sparrL: it's called "constructive" criticism for a reason
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21:55:13  <sparrL> Yexo: knows what it means.  this is another situation like I mentioned last night, where some people have a clue, but no one is sure.
21:55:37  <Yexo> it's the percent of the cargo that got moved to the stations
21:55:40  <Yexo> the rest is just lost
21:56:14  <Yexo> if there is a single station (with constant station-rating), it's equal to the station rating for that cargo
21:56:15  <sparrL> I believe that you are incorrect
21:56:24  <Yexo> if there are multiple stations it's somewhat more difficult
21:56:39  <sparrL> the consensus is that it always has something to do with station rating
21:56:41  <andythenorth> it's trippy.  I don't know of a better solution either though
21:57:42  <Yexo> sparrL: you can believe whatever you want
21:57:54  <Yexo> at least I can backup my statements with the actual code
21:57:56  <sparrL> <Yexo> it's the percent of the cargo that got moved to the stations
21:58:01  <sparrL> <Yexo> if there is a single station (with constant station-rating), it's equal to the station rating for that cargo
21:58:06  <sparrL> these two statements are contradictory
21:58:19  <Yexo> you'll find they are not
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21:58:31  <andythenorth> sparrL: they are not contradictory
21:58:36  <Yexo> suppose there is an industry with only a single station that has ratings near it
21:58:37  <sparrL> the station rating has almost nothing to do with the percent of cargo that got moved to the station
21:58:57  <Yexo> then if the industry produced 100coal and the station rating for coal is 80%, then 80tons of coal appear at the station
21:59:09  <Yexo> so 80 tons of coal is "moved" from the industry to the station
21:59:38  <sparrL> I am currently working under the assumption that the wiki is accurate, if incomplete, on the subject of station rating.  Are you saying that a station with 0% rating would receive no cargo?
21:59:57  <Yexo> then at the end of the month, say the last month there was 200 ton produced and 160 ton moved to station, the industry percent transported would be 160/200*100%=80%
22:00:01  <Yexo> so equal to the station rating
22:00:17  <Yexo> that's correct, a station with 0% rating doesn't receive cargo
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22:01:21  <sparrL> the information you are giving me is consistent and probably accurate...  and reflected nowhere on the wiki, nor in the knowledge of the dozen other mostly-experienced players who have tried to provide information on this subject
22:02:37  <fjb> Moin
22:02:41  <Yexo> I had to check the source code too for the details, I don't know these things either
22:02:52  <Yexo> hello fjb
22:02:53  <sparrL> this is the first time, in perhaps four hours over the course of two weeks, that anyone has mentioned anything about production from industries being lost
22:03:35  <sparrL> "% transported" seems more *accurate* to me, knowing this, but still misleading.  to me "% transported" sounds like the amount of the production that made it onto trains
22:04:07  <Yexo> it's still a bit misleading, because another part ofthe cargo can be lost if you have a large stockpile at the station
22:04:11  <Yexo> but accurate enough imo
22:04:33  <Yexo> and the wiki page on game mechanics says under the station rating header: "This section shows the factors that affect how much of an industry's product is delivered to a station. "
22:04:46  <Yexo> while that is indeed not very clear, it does reflect that something is lost
22:05:02  <sparrL> interesting
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22:05:17  <sparrL> I don't know how I missed that, since I have been staring at that chart for the better part of an hour
22:05:43  <sparrL> the chart also happens to be incorrect in some ways, but it's at least a step in the right direction
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22:06:18  <sparrL> and no, I don't know which ways, but I have heard not-disputed claims that 0-8-0 (slow engine) trains can maintain a 90%+ rating with no temporary bonuses, which the chart refutes
22:07:23  <Yexo> then those claims were wrong
22:07:47  <sparrL> or the chart is wrong...  I plan to check the source code to confirm
22:10:00  <sparrL> but knowing that rating affects (effective) production is incredibly useful...  advertising campaigns seem a LOT more useful now
22:10:21  <sparrL> the difference in 80% and 100% rating could be hundreds of units of lost production per month
22:12:45  <Eddi|zuHause> a regular slow engine should maintain a rating of about 67%
22:12:56  <Eddi|zuHause> for "always a train waiting"
22:13:21  <Yexo> +10% if you have a statue in the town,those are also very useful
22:13:36  <Yexo> more then advertising campaigns because it's not temporarily
22:13:36  <Zuu> Yexo: Do you have any idea of how easy or hard it would be to pause only the execution of one specific AI, even if the game is unpaused? Apart from adding a data structure over which AIs that are paused, do you know if the squirrel integration supports pausing/suspending of an AI?
22:13:38  <sparrL> can you build more than one statue?
22:13:44  <sparrL> i've never built one
22:13:47  <Belugas> bye bye good night and all
22:14:09  <Yexo> night Belugas
22:14:15  <Yexo> sparrL: no
22:14:37  <sparrL> that's what i always assumed
22:14:46  <Yexo> Zuu: stopping the AI after the current tick is relatively easy, if you want to make it stop while doing the AILog call with the stop string that's a bit harder
22:14:50  <sparrL> can you dynamite it if you need to put it in a different town?
22:15:01  <andythenorth> I can don't remember getting more than about 67% station ratings.  Feeder service with new trucks should produce a high rating
22:15:02  <andythenorth>
22:15:02  <Johnmit> you can build 1 per town
22:15:14  <Yexo> but I suppose it's possible
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22:15:46  <SpComb> dragonhorseboy: anyways, I'll hopefully be finishing this game by next week
22:16:00  <SpComb> already learned a lot about the DBSetXL though
22:16:17  <SpComb> <-- I've been using Uwe's guide, but I've noticed plenty of omissions so far
22:16:34  <SpComb> but there's a lot of useful info
22:16:49  <Zuu> Yexo: Okay, I won't start with it tonight, so I'll post the patch at FS as it looks right now. For now it just pauses the game.
22:17:01  <sparrL> Johnmit: ahh, in that case I will build one in every town from now on, seems like a no-brainer
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22:17:13  <Yexo> Zuu: ok
22:17:23  <Yexo> you wnat me to look at the patch as it is now or do you want that feature in anyway?
22:17:59  <sparrL> andythenorth: you could "cheat" and attach a train station, let a fast train run back and forth through it :)
22:18:03  <sparrL> andythenorth: +17% there
22:18:29  <Johnmit> sparrL trying to understand the game mechanics can be quite interesting :)
22:18:40  <sparrL> Johnmit: quite
22:18:55  <Zuu> I'm not sure if I will do the break in the current tick. The other one, break after current tick could be done I guess by adding a toggle button on the window that lets the user manually pause the AI.
22:19:02  <dragonhorseboy> doh forgot this channel was still on lol
22:19:15  <Yexo> andythenorth: the stationrating in that screenshot is so low because of the alrge amount of coal waiting
22:19:23  <Yexo> ideally you should never stockpile it at the station
22:19:24  <dragonhorseboy> spcomb .. next week? hmm ok I'll probably be waiting quietly then ;)
22:19:27  <Zuu> If you want to break the AI at a specific point you can add a Sleep call just after your print statement.
22:19:29  <Johnmit> also, if OpenTTD has the same mechanics as TTDPatch for station ratings, then age of vehicle also refers to the age of the wagons
22:19:49  <Johnmit> and not the engine age - which is the only number displayed
22:19:58  <sparrL> Yexo: do transferred goods count against that part of the station rating?
22:19:59  <Zuu> That said, proper breaking would be cool :-)
22:20:17  <SpComb> dragonhorseboy: I'll need to fix some issues (timetable autofill round-off, perhaps autosave interval) before I start a new game, though, but I'll try and pick a revision with a readily available win32 build :)
22:20:28  <Yexo> sparrL: all cargo at the station (it doesn't look at whether it's transferred or not)
22:20:41  <dragonhorseboy> johnmit I've always kinda determined the age of wagons by looking at its value .. if its eg hm say 420DEM and the buy list says eg 2700DM then I know its probably due for an upgrade if not a renewal
22:20:51  <dragonhorseboy> I know its not perfect but its a useable way right?
22:20:52  <sparrL> Johnmit: if the wiki is right, only ages under 3 years matter, so that part is usually moot...  i don't know if it's worth my attention to manually replace all my trains every 2 years, even if it turns out to be profitable
22:21:13  <sparrL> which it probably wouldn't be
22:21:24  <SpComb> dragonhorseboy: I'll probably take a 1024x512 map this time, so if you want to join in, there'll be enough space to build two separate networks and then join them together at some point :)
22:21:26  <dragonhorseboy> spcomb well it'll be still running dbsetxl+newstations tho of course right?
22:21:32  <andythenorth> Yexo: the station with 13% in that screenshot is a transfer...the mine isn't in it's catchment area.  Mine station has about 67% I'd guess
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22:21:38  <Zuu> Yexo: I'd say, you may read it for now if you wish, but I'll probably at least read up a bit and see if I can do at least the easier form of breaking.
22:21:47  <Zuu> (haven't posted it yet)
22:21:49  <dragonhorseboy> spcomb hmm wait .. would you have 'able to buy out company' option enabled then?
22:21:49  <SpComb> dragonhorseboy: yeah, dbsetxl, although I'm not sure about the alpine climate - perhaps I'll just keep it in spite of the food issue
22:21:55  <Johnmit> indeed sparrL - the vehicle must be under 3 years to count
22:21:57  <Yexo> Zuu: ok
22:22:09  <Yexo> I'll take a look when you post it at fs
22:22:19  <SpComb> dragonhorseboy: well... unless I get IS incorporated, it'll be with a max_companies of 1
22:22:29  <Johnmit> it is why TTDPatch had a cheat which renewed all the vehicles, not just the engines
22:22:30  <dragonhorseboy> spcomb ah hmm good point
22:22:50  <Johnmit> it is also what made the original game that much harder at a higher level
22:22:59  <sparrL> Johnmit: so we are talking about re-purchasing every train every year to get a 13% increase in station output...  that's a tough sell, both in terms of profitability and in terms of human attention required
22:23:01  <dragonhorseboy> spcomb yeah you're right.. it'll have to be an IS build to really work out but still i could imagine players build their own seperate patch of the network while being stuck in loans
22:23:05  <SpComb> (that way you can leave off the server password and just have a company one - others can spectate)
22:23:09  <Johnmit> no autorenew or cloning
22:23:10  <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: i have a locally modified alpine that disables the industries and adds food to the houses
22:23:16  <Eddi|zuHause> i use it with PBI
22:23:21  <dragonhorseboy> then when someone finally start profitting nicely etc you could then plan a buyout to eventually combine everything into one single company
22:23:34  <dragonhorseboy> but its your call tho spcomb ;)
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22:23:48  <Johnmit> sparrL - if you thought getting 100% was easy then yes
22:23:48  * dragonhorseboy hates PBI (no offense meant of course :p )
22:23:50  <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause: well, not having food isn't really all that bad - the towns lower down grow well enough
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22:24:04  <Ammler> no frosch :-)
22:24:09  <Johnmit> but TTO and TTD with all its limits was actually quiet a hard game to get 100% in
22:24:12  <dragonhorseboy> the last two jonty IS maps were finally fun with PBI not even enabled because I could actually send ore to the steel mill without too much frettings
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22:24:50  <Ammler> added a decimal number column to the basecosts table, hope that is fine:
22:24:51  <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: also you can fund new buildings to get around the food requirement
22:25:05  <SpComb> you'd have to do that fairly often :)
22:25:25  <Yexo> for those interested: for the station rating the max speed of the vehicle counts, so if you have wagon speed limits on and a wagon limits the speed of the train then the limited speed counts
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22:25:36  <Johnmit> that's also why you didn't need 100% station ratings to get the 'Tycoon' rating and maximum points
22:26:00  <SpComb> dragonhorseboy: I've been playing this game with 4x daylength, so each game-year is pretty exactly 0.9h of real-time
22:26:15  <dragonhorseboy> spcomb ah that explains why it seem quite slow to roll the years
22:26:29  <SpComb> dragonhorseboy: yeah, I've been playing this over 60 hours so far to get to 1987 :)
22:26:37  <dragonhorseboy> lol :)
22:26:43  <dragonhorseboy> sounds like a game I could want to share into too
22:27:09  <Eddi|zuHause> i think i played my daylength 4 game for half a year before getting to 1987
22:27:23  <SpComb> I started 2009-12-18
22:27:38  <SpComb> it's a slow game, myes :)
22:27:53  <dragonhorseboy> well 60 hours sounds fine to me :)
22:30:30  <Eddi|zuHause> -rw-r--r-- 1 johannes users 3724413  3. Sep 2007  Ravenswald Transport, 26. M?r 1921.sav
22:30:32  <Eddi|zuHause> -rw-r--r-- 1 johannes users 4506090 22. Feb 2008  Ravenswald Transport, 11. M?r 1987.sav
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22:32:53  <Rubidium> haha!
22:32:54  <Rubidium> -rw-r--r-- 1 rubidium src       34K Jan  7 23:32 Treham Transport, 19th Oct 1951.sav
22:33:28  <Rubidium> oh shoot... shouldn't type touch when you mean chown :(
22:33:40  <Rubidium> -rw-r--r-- 1 rubidium src       34K Jul 13  2007 Treham Transport, 19th Oct 1951.sav
22:34:02  <Rubidium> okay, it's likely that I'm playing that game less than Eddi's playing his game
22:35:08  <Eddi|zuHause> well, i did omit this one:
22:35:17  <Eddi|zuHause> -rw-r--r-- 1 johannes users 4433904  8. Sep 12:00 Ravenswald Transport, 26. Apr 1988.sav
22:36:24  <Eddi|zuHause> i haven't really played the game much in that time, only an experimental attempt to load it into trunk
22:36:33  <Rubidium> oh, and why isn't there a stable liblzma yet?
22:37:22  <Rubidium> oh, I loaded my savegame today too, and saved it 20 times: :)
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22:38:19  <Eddi|zuHause> you don't have enough trees ;)
22:41:18  <Rubidium> <- of some 8.6 MB savegame; without much extra CPU you can chop of ~10% savegame size with liblzma, with lots more CPU ~20-25%
22:42:25  <sparrL> we are using zlib:1 now?
22:42:34  <Rubidium> no, zlib:6
22:42:45  <peter1138> hmm, i still have an elrail checkout
22:42:55  <peter1138> from march 2006
22:43:20  <sparrL> Rubidium: what is the reasoning behind using zlib for structures inside the file, rather than on the file as a whole?
22:45:08  <Rubidium> backward compatability
22:45:21  <sparrL> are saves backwards compatible?
22:45:29  <sparrL> that is, can a save from 0.7.0 load in 0.1.0?
22:45:57  <Eddi|zuHause> no, the other way round
22:46:02  <Rubidium> that's called forward compatible
22:46:08  <Eddi|zuHause> what you describe is forward compatible
22:46:13  <Rubidium> *unless* you meant 1.0.0
22:46:37  <sparrL> right, so what is the backwards compatibility reasoning wrt my question?  making saves in 1.0.0 differently doesn't mean we lose the ability to open 0.1.0 saves
22:47:22  <Rubidium> yes, that you can load 0.1.0 saves in 1.0.0 (or 0.7.5 saves in 1.0.0 for that matter)
22:47:28  <Eddi|zuHause> sparrL: but it might mean maintaining more code for the third different loading algorithm
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22:48:39  <Eddi|zuHause> it's currently two loading algorithsms, one for openttd savegames, and one for original tt(d(patch)) savegames
22:48:48  <sparrL> ahh, k
22:49:16  <Eddi|zuHause> where loading of ttdpatch savegames is not guaranteed to work with some patch features
22:50:14  <peter1138> hmm, pile transport is OLD
22:50:15  <sparrL> I ask because I am thinking of Battle for Wesnoth, where saves are human-editable (XML) files, that are optionally (by default) gzipped
22:50:56  <Eddi|zuHause> sparrL: you _don't_ want to start an XML discussion :p
22:51:38  <sparrL> meh, doesn't have to be XML.  i just like being able to open my saves in a text editor.  to cheat, or investigate, or create concept scenarios
22:51:38  <peter1138> basically it means we can tell what type of file it is and how it is compressed without having to guess
22:52:02  <peter1138> decompressing your save file would only leave you binary data anyway
22:52:05  <sparrL> I really want to have a concept-testing scenario in openttd, but making one seems Hard
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22:52:50  <Rubidium> sparrL: use the none savegame 'format'
22:53:06  <sparrL> where?
22:53:12  <sparrL> not familiar with that option
22:53:23  <Rubidium> openttd.cfg
22:53:43  <Rubidium> where it says savegame_format
22:53:53  <Rubidium> instead of zlib use none
22:54:06  <Rubidium> et voila, no compression is done
22:55:38  <peter1138> good luck editing it though :D
22:56:31  <Rubidium> reminds me of that 'trainer' for OpenTTD
22:56:56  <Rubidium> what an effort for something that's already implemented (i.e. the cheat)
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22:57:05  <sparrL> peter1138: I want to make a scenario with a custom heightmap, custom town and industry placements...  seems no easier way than editing a savegame somehow
22:57:38  <peter1138> i'd use the scenario editor, personally
22:57:48  <Yexo> I think editing the openttd code will be a lot easier if you need something custom done
22:58:19  <Yexo> but yes, try the scenario editor first
22:58:40  <dragonhorseboy> that reminds me of still needing to play around with FIRS in editor to see if any bugs crops up
23:01:34  <Terkhen> I can't find anything at the code about how the connection to an existing road from a new road stop is built... I have been checking CmdBuildRoadStop but I can't figure it
23:02:20  <sparrL> peter1138: want more control than the scenario editor gives
23:04:27  <peter1138> presumably loading a custom heightmap, and placing towns and industries where you want them , isn't enough? despite that being your list of requirements...
23:06:27  <peter1138> Terkhen, BuildRoadOutsideStation() in road_*gui*.cpp
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23:09:33  <Terkhen> peter1138: thanks :)
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23:14:50  <sparrL> peter1138: control over the composition of the towns is important, as are the parameters of the industries
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23:15:58  <Eddi|zuHause> sparrL: feel free to write a savegame<->xml converter...
23:16:24  <Eddi|zuHause> but don't expect anyone to include that in any kind of official build
23:16:46  <sparrL> why would i do that?
23:16:52  <sparrL> i neither want nor need savegames as xml
23:16:54  <SmatZ> why not?
23:17:01  <sparrL> SmatZ: see ^^
23:17:51  <sparrL> <Eddi|zuHause> sparrL: you _don't_ want to start an XML discussion :p
23:17:52  <sparrL> you were right
23:17:56  * SmatZ is going to play Realms of Arkania 3: Shadows over Riva
23:17:58  <sparrL> I don't.
23:18:03  <SmatZ> OpenRoA3:SoR, anyone?
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23:26:23  <Ammler> Hello, I liked to rewrite my basecosts grf and failed quite silly:
23:26:40  <Ammler> if I don't set parameter 2, the whole grf will be disabled, why is that?
23:26:53  <Ammler> it works, if I have defined 4 parameters
23:27:00  <dragonhorseboy> heh long as you don't break the offical release of the grf :P
23:27:10  * dragonhorseboy uses it literally every single time in SP
23:27:44  <Ammler> the grf will have a new id
23:27:54  <Ammler> and fully configurable :-)
23:28:16  <dragonhorseboy> heh ok ;)
23:28:34  <dragonhorseboy> ammler the two parameters I always seem to 'abuse' is with airport cost and multiplying the plane runcost
23:28:55  <dragonhorseboy> that makes air a lot more relastic .. no M-profit-per-delivery anymore
23:29:01  <dragonhorseboy> :)
23:29:44  <Ammler> well, the new grf will just be able to change 8 types, you can define which and apply a value
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23:30:27  <Ammler> but something is wrong with my draft
23:30:34  <dragonhorseboy> '8 types'?
23:31:24  <Ammler> from here:
23:32:16  <dragonhorseboy> hmm so you mean able to pick eight out of 59 or ?
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23:32:52  <Ammler> yes, well, it would be extendable, but I don't think you need more
23:33:56  <dragonhorseboy> well ammler.. a lot of these stuffs are reducency (such as 'remove signal' so hmm yeah)
23:33:58  <Ammler> and the current one from bananas doesn't use the new types >48
23:34:44  <dragonhorseboy> 'remove industry'? that would be a bit of abusing in MP .. but I guess it could have merits if there's two adjacent steel mills and one is in the way of the station junction for others one
23:35:13  <Ammler> doesn't that need magic bulldozer anyway?
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23:43:03  <Ammler> mainly the grf checks, if parameter set, then it changes the factors, else it skippes
23:43:21  <Terkhen> good night
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