Log for #openttd on 9th January 2010:
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03:30:42  <Hyppy> on a few sites, I see reference to "ICE-#" trains.  Which NewGRF are these in?
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03:35:04  <roboboy> The DBXL set
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03:56:07  <Hyppy> ugh I feel like such an idiot.  Built up a full SBahn map, worked out all the kinks in the mainlines, sidelines, and loops, and had a full set of trains running.  Little did I realize that the default trainset was far too limited for a full SBahn game :-(  Oh, well.  Time to start anew, I guess
04:06:03  <roboboy> are the OpenGFX grf's newgrfs?
04:07:04  <roboboy> or are they plain grfs that mimic the originals?
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04:25:08  <sparrL> i think they are the latter, but I am uninformed
04:25:22  <sparrL> Hyppy: SBahn?
04:26:09  * roboboy ponders tring to trick TTDPatch into using OpenGFX
04:26:20  <roboboy> ill have to rename the files and whatnot
04:28:23  <sparrL> I am going to have to install TTD and TTDPatch just so I can check out the differences
04:28:30  <sparrL> it's been the better part of a decade since I've touched TTD
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04:30:31  <roboboy> well TTDPatch has CargoDest built in
04:31:15  <roboboy> you may want to look at installing TTDPC but then TTDPatch's config is commented unlike OpenTTD's which is ment to be edited in the game
04:31:33  * roboboy installs tortoisegit
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04:33:31  <roboboy> ive now got TortoiseSVN/HG/Git on this machine
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04:55:13  <De_Ghosty> anyone familiar with how to impiment voice control with arm chip
04:55:17  <De_Ghosty> or i it even possible?
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05:10:49  <Pikka> out damn cow!
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05:12:09  <Pikka> sup Singaporekid
05:12:37  <Singaporekid> oh you pikka
05:12:50  <Singaporekid> bc2 pc beta :D
05:12:50  <Pikka> wuts
05:13:00  <Pikka> wuts a bc2
05:13:20  <Singaporekid> It's the new prattlefield, clearly
05:13:29  <Pikka> o
05:13:34  <Pikka> badcompanies
05:13:58  <Pikka> peter1138's server(s) are back D:
05:14:04  <Pikka> with pj1k D:
05:14:37  <Singaporekid> I crashed two of my trains on it yesterday
05:14:45  <Pikka> o
05:14:47  <Pikka> gj
05:14:53  <Singaporekid> uh oh 1931
05:14:58  <Pikka> I couldn't play yesterday on my eee
05:15:42  <Pikka> for some reason peter and penguin are using the ukrs trains D:
05:15:48  <Singaporekid> It could run a tf2 dedicated server for a lan party though
05:16:05  <Singaporekid> it was slightly cheaper and fasttrains
05:16:07  <Pikka> mebe.. *sniff*... mebe...
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05:57:14  <Hyppy> what causes production in a primary industry to go up or down?
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06:17:01  <Kovensky> it's random
06:17:10  <Kovensky> but it's affected by ratings in smooth economy IIRC
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06:23:51  <Pikka> Hyppy:
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08:24:30  <roboboy> Pikka: thanx for the lnk to . I was reading your wiki about Project 1000 (UKRS)
08:24:54  <roboboy> Itll be of use when I get to restarting the TTE Set
08:27:48  <andythenorth> Pikka: hai hai
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08:29:52  <Pikka> that's okay robo
08:29:54  <Pikka> hello andy
08:30:53  <andythenorth> are you somewhere exotic?
08:31:39  <Pikka> is kochi exotic?
08:32:16  <Rubidium> na, only naha
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08:34:44  <Rubidium> it's even going to freeze there pretty soon
08:35:13  <Pikka> it's a little cool
08:35:33  <Pikka> but north america and europe seem to be having a worse time of it
08:44:08  <sawtooth> just saw someone else post this elsewhere:
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09:20:12  <SpComb> sawtooth: pfft, from May
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09:43:33  <Terkhen> good morning
09:45:51  <Alberth> morning Terkhen
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09:58:16  <andythenorth> hi terkhen
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10:03:29  <Luukland>  Message:   Assertion failed at line 1113 of ..\src\economy.cpp: v->time_counter != 0
10:03:30  <Luukland> Ouch
10:03:55  <SpComb> seen that one before
10:04:01  <Luukland> OpenTTD beta 2
10:04:12  <SpComb> oh, curious
10:04:24  <Luukland> Uploading the crashlog to flyspray
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10:07:51  <Luukland> Beh, my whole game killed :(
10:08:01  <Luukland> Emergency savegame crashes also :(
10:08:03  <Luukland> Bad bug!
10:09:59  <peter1138> it's logic. the crash.sav happens *after* the crash has occured.
10:10:22  <Luukland> I had my hopes that I could continue to build :)
10:10:46  <Luukland> ah well that is why it is called beta ^^
10:11:19  <Luukland>
10:13:02  <Luukland> Meaning the beta is unplayable :(
10:14:53  <peter1138> what's a BPS signal?
10:15:11  <Luukland> Its a PBS signal with upside-down signal
10:15:22  <Luukland> Bad Path Signal
10:16:01  <peter1138> uh huh
10:16:27  <peter1138> well you got your answer
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10:16:37  <peter1138> beta2 is, of course, perfectly playable.
10:17:04  <Luukland> by your defenition of playable yeah
10:17:18  * Forked gets the popcorn
10:17:33  <Luukland> Anyhow, time to do some other stuff, good luck fixing!
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10:18:48  <peter1138> idiot
10:19:48  <SpComb> tsk
10:29:02  <roboboy> hehe
10:29:53  <roboboy> whats the difference between CargoDest and CargoDist
10:30:08  <Rubidium> boost vs threading
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10:47:47  <Forked> (and only one of them is still being worked on?)
10:48:02  <Eddi|zuHause> roboboy: difference in design, implementation or features?
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10:48:43  <roboboy> features
10:49:02  <roboboy> Forked: True in terms of OpenTTD
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10:49:12  <roboboy> TTDPatch has CargoDest
10:49:16  <Eddi|zuHause> cargodest forces cargo down one single route, while cargodist can balance over multiple parallel routes
10:49:32  * roboboy goes to report a bug in TTDPatch
10:49:52  <roboboy> so they do the same thing differently?
10:50:02  <Forked> It's been several years since I paid any attention to the patch :)
10:50:56  <Eddi|zuHause> roboboy: that's the "design": cargodest does point-to-point connection while cargodist solves a network flow problem
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10:58:33  <roboboy> TT-F seems be realy slow
10:59:12  <andythenorth> fine for me
10:59:26  <Eddi|zuHause> don't care for me
10:59:27  <roboboy> hm must be my connection
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11:00:44  <roboboy> my attatchment failed because it was slow
11:02:03  <roboboy> grr
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12:03:00  <Roelmb> guys is their a way to run your solution in Visual c++ 2008 express edition because it asks for the TT files (that aren't in the project)
12:05:33  <Eddi|zuHause> if you don't have the TT files, google for opengfx and opensfx
12:06:01  <Roelmb> i have them but they are not in my project so I can't debug it inside Visual c++
12:06:43  <asilv> put ttd files to "my documents/openttd/data"
12:06:47  <Eddi|zuHause> they need to be in "my documents\openttd\data"
12:06:54  <asilv> :p
12:07:53  <asilv> hmm \ not / of course
12:08:03  <Roelmb> thats not what i mean I mean that i didn't build it yet and i want to debug it without building it first. I don't made the exe yet because I want to debug it first
12:08:31  <peter1138> ...
12:10:33  <Roelmb> When i build it with my compiler it starts runing it so you can debug it and look for errors without compiling it so it can give you warnings when needed. I don't have an exe in a folder i just have a project. With only the main code.
12:11:04  <Eddi|zuHause> you're talking nonsense
12:11:35  <Roelmb> no i'm not you guys just don't get it XD
12:12:07  <Xaroth> I think yer being outnumbered here, Roelmb
12:12:13  <Xaroth> You make absolutely no sense to me :P
12:12:31  <Roelmb> I see that nobody uses Visual c++ 2008 express edition over here
12:12:35  <Xaroth> yes I do
12:13:01  <Roelmb> so why don't you understand it then or am i explaining it wrong
12:13:08  <Xaroth> you are understanding it wrong
12:13:20  <Roelmb> euhm why should i
12:13:33  <Xaroth> you can't debug anything without building it first (with debug flags on, obviously)
12:13:40  <Xaroth> unless you want to look through the code line by line
12:13:55  <Xaroth> which I really doubt is what you want, seeing you want to run it (else it wouldn't ask for the TT files)
12:14:09  <Roelmb> i am going to describe what i am doing ok
12:15:51  <Terkhen> I use it too, to debug you need opengfx and opensfx (or the TT files) at the folders already mentioned
12:16:11  <Roelmb> I load in my project then I press ctrl F5 and then i get that langs and version is outdated. I press yes. And then it starts running the game.
12:16:33  <Xaroth> doesn't ctrl+F5 actually 'compile' the game?
12:16:44  <Roelmb> yes it does
12:16:59  <Xaroth> [Roelmb]: thats not what i mean I mean that i didn't build it yet and i want to debug it without building it first.
12:17:03  <Xaroth> so that last bit of that sentence, fails
12:17:19  <Xaroth> you -do- build it, else you -cannot- debug it that way.
12:17:23  <Roelmb> but it doesn't save it somewhere
12:17:59  <asilv> it saves exe to objs directory
12:18:01  <Xaroth> if it doesn't save it somewhere how the hell is it supposed to run?
12:18:08  <Xaroth> you can't run something that's not there
12:18:08  <Terkhen> it is probably at objs\Win32\Release\
12:18:14  <Roelmb> ok i'll look in the objs directory
12:18:16  <Xaroth> or objs\Win32\Debug\
12:18:39  <roboboy> its in the second one most likely
12:18:47  <Roelmb> I only have objs\win32\debug
12:19:02  <roboboy> then its there
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12:19:33  <Roelmb> alright then I need to put the TT files intheir then
12:19:55  <Xaroth> no, you don't
12:19:59  <Xaroth> [Eddi|zuHause]: they need to be in "my documents\openttd\data"
12:20:28  <Terkhen> Roelmb: If you put them at the already mentioned folder, all versions of openttd will find them there
12:20:31  <roboboy> you on xp or vistaor 7?
12:20:32  <Roelmb> their is no map like that inside debug there is only an exe and object files
12:20:38  <Roelmb> I use 7
12:21:03  <Roelmb> so just in documents
12:21:12  <peter1138> directory/path/folder. not map.
12:21:17  <Roelmb> I allways putted them inside the game directory
12:21:28  <roboboy> then put it in C:\Users\Roelmb\Documents\Openttd\Data
12:22:09  <Roelmb> and does that work for the gm-files too
12:22:30  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
12:22:49  <roboboy> except they dont go in data
12:23:11  <Roelmb> oh now i get it so thats how you need to do it without copying them like for every version
12:23:45  <peter1138> it's been that way for quite a long time...
12:23:59  <Roelmb> but i used it allways the other way and it worked fine
12:24:21  <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause: what browser were you using earlier, when my giant-screenshot viewer didn't work for you?
12:24:28  <peter1138> yes, it's fine, as long as you want to waste a load of disk space
12:24:31  <Terkhen> it works, but now you don't have to copy the files every time you start using a new binary
12:24:34  <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: konqueror 4
12:24:56  <Roelmb> ok thnx guys great help for me
12:25:04  <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: google maps also has problems with konqueror...
12:25:16  <SpComb> hehe
12:25:53  <Roelmb> euhm now hes telling that he can't find the driver for direct music
12:25:54  <SpComb> if it has a script debugger, it can be fixed...
12:26:24  <Eddi|zuHause> Roelmb: maybe you should just follow the wiki on compiling _correctly_
12:27:30  <Roelmb> I did it like it was standing their
12:28:32  <Rubidium> so you did the alternative that removed directmusic support
12:29:06  <peter1138> ahh, mangled english :D
12:29:29  <Roelmb> not really i added these pathes and it gives that error
12:30:05  <Rubidium> Roelmb: when starting OpenTTD, right? So you did both the correct way and the alternative
12:31:22  <roboboy> hm my Win7 Pro machine with MSVC 2008 express doesnt seem to have a make executable like someone in here said it should
12:31:41  <roboboy> brb
12:32:26  <roboboy> back
12:32:30  <Rubidium> Roelmb: open openttd.cfg and remove the line with music_driver; that should do the trick
12:32:55  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... sometimes i hate not being a native english speaker...
12:33:04  <Eddi|zuHause> i have a hard time getting "phonetic" jokes
12:33:13  <Eddi|zuHause> like "ghost in zshell"
12:33:39  <Roelmb> @rubidium:and where is that file in my solution
12:33:57  <Eddi|zuHause> (where apparently "z" should be pronounced as the american "zee")
12:34:22  <roboboy> it shou;d be in C:\Users\Roelmb\OpenTTD
12:34:24  <Rubidium> Roelmb: openttd.cfg is not part of the solution, it's part of the OpenTTD configuration; readme.txt tells where it can be
12:34:24  <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause: hmm, it starts working as soon as I open up the JavaScript debugger and reload :)
12:34:37  <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: so it's a heisenbug ;)
12:34:44  <Roelmb> ok i'll look for it
12:34:45  <SpComb> of some sort
12:34:58  <SpComb> the mousewheel doesn't seem to work there, and the zoom ui buttons are still hidden
12:35:43  <Roelmb> rubidium: what will that do for my other versions of openttd
12:36:09  <Rubidium> possibly disable music
12:36:23  <Roelmb> damn thats the thing I don't want too
12:36:47  <roboboy> can we update the readme to include the path for Vista/7 to the users OpenTTD dir?
12:36:54  <Roelmb> but the weird thing is I have music when i compile it
12:37:30  <Rubidium> then you're on one of the lucky systems where it works with the 'other' driver
12:38:05  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, native-american-english speakers... zed-shell doesn't work either
12:38:06  <Roelmb> or not now the jukebox is runing throug every number at lightning speed
12:38:33  <Roelmb> without willing to play it
12:38:46  <Rubidium> then it's using the 'null' driver which simply doesn't play songs
12:39:25  <Roelmb> ok nevermind the music isn't that important
12:40:11  <Roelmb> and rubidium it seams like you know the code by head :p
12:41:12  <Xaroth> well seeing the amount of code he commits on a day-to-day basis.. yes, he does :p
12:41:37  <Zuu> If someone should know the code by heart, then it is Rubibium judged by his astonishing activity.
12:42:18  <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause: does (i.e. without the # bit) load for you?
12:42:21  <Roelmb> is their any way to learn the code by heart without runing true every file
12:42:50  <roboboy> What should I do if I want the readme updated?
12:43:10  <Roelmb> post it at the developers forum maybe?
12:45:33  <Roelmb> euhm little question if I try to apply a diff file to my directory it opens tortoisemerge but i doesn't do anything else
12:46:04  <Roelmb> not even applying the patch because after i compiled it it seems to have changed nothing
12:46:15  <roboboy> right click one of the listed files
12:46:49  <Roelmb> how do you mean
12:47:14  <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause: the zoom buttons still show up for me as long as I don't scroll around..
12:47:15  <roboboy> it shows you a list of files to be patched right?
12:47:25  <Roelmb> nope thats my problem it doesn't
12:49:06  <roboboy> what happens if you right click on the folder containing the source and select tortoise merge then apply patch?
12:49:28  <Roelmb> then it opens the tortoisemerge window and then nothing
12:49:30  <Terkhen> I'd like to request that type is changed to 'Core', operating system to 'all' and version to 'trunk'... as it stands is not correct... If there is something missing at the last diff file, I'd like to know it too
12:50:54  <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: it says "Loading...", how long is that supposed to last?
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12:51:09  <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause: until it loads... never, if the JavaScript is all bugged out :)
12:51:30  <SpComb> (the "Loading..." is just a fixed text in the background with a low z-index)
12:52:17  <roboboy> Roelmb: I get two windows the tortoise merge window and a patch files window or something do you get both?
12:52:17  <SpComb> (although that's probably an abuse of z-index... seems to work, though)
12:52:35  <Eddi|zuHause> Fehler: ReferenceError: Can't find variable: Source
12:52:43  <SpComb> that doesn't say much
12:52:51  <Roelmb> roboboy: nope i don't get patch files list (with other patches I get it but not with the cargodist patch)
12:52:54  <Eddi|zuHause> but that's all i get...
12:53:04  <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause: I didn't get any JS output at all when running it
12:53:19  <SpComb> even though I have "Report errors" enabled in the settings
12:53:21  <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: there's a little bug icon in the lower right corner
12:53:43  <SpComb> don't see any
12:53:43  <roboboy> I dont think CargoDist is a SVN patch but rather a Git patch
12:53:54  <SpComb> there's some link of link-button
12:53:55  <roboboy> can someone confirm?
12:54:14  <Eddi|zuHause> roboboy: yes, cargodist is developed with git
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12:54:39  <Roelmb> oh and how do i use git because i don't understand anything of that
12:54:41  <Eddi|zuHause> use "patch -p1 -i <file>" to patch
12:54:47  <roboboy> and thats why Tortoise SVN does not like it
12:55:04  <roboboy> search for tortoise git
12:55:17  <Roelmb> oh i have cygwin now
12:55:48  <Roelmb> i'll download the tortoise git then
12:56:03  <Eddi|zuHause> Roelmb: cygwin comes with the command line patch tool
12:56:05  <roboboy> where can I get the trunk using Git or the source to apply the patch with?
12:56:13  <Eddi|zuHause> Roelmb: just run the command i said
12:56:20  <Roelmb> ok i'll try
12:56:33  <Eddi|zuHause> in the trunk/ directory, not in the src/
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12:57:02  <Roelmb> where is file standing for is it standing for the patch
12:57:41  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, the patch file
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12:58:27  <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: it seems to work in konqueror 3.5
12:59:14  <SpComb> barely, that seems to be what I'm using as well
12:59:26  <Roelmb> it says unexpected token 'newline'
12:59:50  <frosch123> hmm, either there are too few irc colours or too few letters in the alphabet
13:00:15  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: both ;)
13:00:37  <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: well, at least i can see the picture there ;)
13:00:44  <Eddi|zuHause> but it overlaps the buttons
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13:01:05  <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause: so scrolling works, but no zoom?
13:01:28  <Roelmb> roboboy: it says mysis git install path error
13:01:34  <Eddi|zuHause> scrolling works... zoom i'm testing now
13:01:51  <SpComb> zoom works fine if you do it from the js console, but there's no UI for it
13:02:17  <Eddi|zuHause> the zoom buttons are visible, when the images aren't loaded yet
13:02:40  <SpComb> they stay visible for me as long as I don't drag the view
13:02:44  <Eddi|zuHause> so zooming works, if you scroll to an area that has not been loaded
13:02:59  <SpComb> but there's something positioning-related there, because the buttons also dissapear temporarily while dragging with FF
13:03:26  <SpComb> i.e. dragging the substrate changes its position properties, and that causes the buttons to go under
13:03:40  <SpComb> so it isn't purely a konq bug
13:04:35  <Eddi|zuHause> well, but that doesn't help fixing the konqueror 4 error
13:04:48  <Eddi|zuHause> where it doesn't show anything at all
13:07:52  <SpComb> well... I'm liable to blame khtml
13:08:04  <SpComb> this works in FF1.5, FF3, IE6, IE8, Chrome, Safari
13:08:50  <Eddi|zuHause> that might be true, but it doesn't solve the problem either ;)
13:11:45  <Roelmb> is git cloning always that slow
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13:11:56  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
13:12:13  <Eddi|zuHause> it copies the whole repository, not just the checkout like svn
13:12:20  <Roelmb> like how long it takes half,hour hour,...
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13:12:59  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm told it's faster with "git:" instead of "http:"
13:13:44  <Roelmb> ok i'll try that
13:13:56  <roboboy> symlinks in Vista\& are a very handy feature of NTFS under said oses
13:14:30  <Eddi|zuHause> roboboy: NTFS supported those for 20 years, but the functionality was never exposed to users
13:14:59  <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause: try now, I fixed the z-index thing
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13:16:21  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah seems to work
13:16:25  <SpComb> seems to work semi-ok apart from the missing mousewheel on konq 3.5 now, sometimes the #bit bugs out to NaN:NaN or such
13:17:06  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, it did that when i "open in konqueror/KDE3"'d it in konqueror 4
13:17:09  <SpComb> i.e. using the reload button fails
13:17:20  <SpComb> but copy-pasting the url into a new tab works
13:17:23  <Eddi|zuHause> when i remove that, it comes up with proper numbers
13:18:03  <Eddi|zuHause> probably you should check for those anyway
13:18:26  <SpComb> yeah
13:19:20  <ashb> Eddi|zuHause: before vista you could only symlink dirs, nbot files i thought
13:21:09  <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: are you missing a signal at Prinnley station?
13:21:20  <Eddi|zuHause> ashb: that i don't know about...
13:23:47  <roboboy> hm
13:24:05  <roboboy> it used to be only files using Junction Points
13:26:21  <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause: seems it isn't just the URL being something invalid when you refresh
13:26:46  <ashb> roboboy: junction points are for dirs
13:26:56  <roboboy> hm
13:27:14  <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause: not really missing, but the signal on that platform should be a one-way signal
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13:27:48  <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: yeah, that's the variant i would build
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13:28:47  <SpComb> PRIN was originall a non-terminus station, but I guess I did a slight oversight when changing it to a semi-terminus
13:28:56  <SpComb> *originally
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13:33:24  <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause: still no luck with konq 4, though?
13:34:01  <Eddi|zuHause> no change...
13:34:09  <SpComb> and no useful JS erorr output?
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13:36:20  <SpComb> oh hey, I found konqueror 4 in /usr/lib/kde4/bin/konqueror
13:37:23  <SpComb> but it doesn't say anything useful
13:38:18  <Eddi|zuHause> weird, it looks different now that i enabled the debugger...
13:39:22  <Eddi|zuHause> it now has a tiny bit of water in the upper left corner, the zoom in button is disabled, and it says "0x0@0"
13:39:31  <Eddi|zuHause> and the error is gone...
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13:40:27  <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause: heh yes, it loaded for me once I did a bit of stepping through with the debugger
13:40:59  <SpComb> the mousewheel works and everything
13:41:41  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... seems to be different if JavaScript is enabled globally or just for some sites
13:42:35  <SpComb> it has the same #NaN:NaN issue as konq3, but seems to work now
13:43:31  <SpComb> i.e. I launch `/usr/lib/kde4/bin/konqueror` and it's all boo-hoo-NaN-undefined, but then if you backspace off the #bit in the url and hit enter, it loads
13:43:45  <Eddi|zuHause> nope... not here...
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13:44:16  <SpComb> no work?
13:44:22  <Eddi|zuHause> it appends "#16352:8176:0" when loading, but the display still says "0x0@0"
13:44:23  <SpComb> try copy-pasting, say, into the URL bar
13:44:40  <Eddi|zuHause> and only a tiny bit of water in the upper left corner
13:45:09  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, that shows something
13:45:38  <Eddi|zuHause> and i can scroll around now
13:45:52  <Ammler> if I load it on the Konqueror, I see just "Loading..."
13:46:05  <SpComb> Ammler: try enableing the JavaScript debugger or something :P
13:46:14  <SpComb> Ammler: seems to work once you try and debug it
13:46:20  <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: that's what i got, until i switched JavaScript to "enable globally"
13:47:06  <Ammler> well, I don't use Konqueror for web, was just wondering...
13:47:18  <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: you have wrong parameter for level crossings...
13:47:43  <SpComb> no dbsetxl-style ones?
13:48:01  <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: dbsetxl has a parameter to disable the level crossings, so it won't override the TTRS ones
13:48:17  <SpComb> ah well
13:49:12  <Ammler> your png viewer is damn cool
13:49:34  <Eddi|zuHause> it's very slow... :( [probably my connection]
13:50:01  <SpComb> it seems to occasionall be very slow in konq, but then it goes all fast again when you re-open it
13:50:04  <Eddi|zuHause> what happened to these gradually refining images that were "cool" around 10 years ago?
13:50:13  <SpComb> ugh, interlacing
13:50:39  <Ammler> that was a jpg feature, wasn't?
13:50:54  <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: i have seen it in pngs, too
13:50:57  <SpComb> there are interlaced PNGs as well
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13:51:07  <SpComb> they're just kind of annoying to handle
13:51:22  <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause: anyways, if it seems slow, then try re-opening it a couple times
13:51:30  <SpComb> it'll probably go away
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13:52:31  <Eddi|zuHause> it's funny when i scroll around, some images pop up almost instantly, and the rest doesn't seem to appear at all
13:52:37  <gergorycu> Hi there guys
13:52:41  <SpComb> that's partially a backend issue
13:52:42  <Eddi|zuHause> it looks like a swiss chese
13:52:43  <Ammler> it should be somehow possible to make that giant screen on a dedicated server
13:52:46  <gergorycu> I'm having a bit of a problem running the game on a friends computer
13:52:57  <gergorycu> I'm running 1.0.0-beta2
13:52:58  <SpComb> Ammler: I think it's possible if you run it with a blitter, haven't tried, though
13:53:20  <gergorycu> The rail construction icon is greyed out
13:53:40  <Eddi|zuHause> gergorycu: means you started too early for rail vehicles to be available
13:53:43  <gergorycu> In fact, anything specific to building transport is greyed out
13:53:58  <Eddi|zuHause> gergorycu: start in 1950 or load some NewGRFs
13:54:32  <gergorycu> Ahh
13:54:34  <gergorycu> Thank you
13:54:36  <gergorycu> That fixed it
13:54:50  <gergorycu> But, all road depots were also greyed out
13:54:54  <gergorycu> But roads were not
13:55:11  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, roads can be built without road vehicles available, since towns need them
13:55:12  <gergorycu> I suppose road stuff becomes vailable after a certain time too?
13:55:30  <gergorycu> So, you can play the game without being able to build any transport stuff?
13:55:33  <gergorycu> If you get my meaning
13:55:50  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, you can "play", but you cannot actually do anything
13:56:03  <gergorycu> Yeah, that's what I mean
13:56:08  <gergorycu> Ok, thank you so much for your help
13:56:17  <gergorycu> I was wondering if it were some strange glitch or something
13:56:31  <gergorycu> And I misread the starting date as "1950" when it was "1850"
13:56:32  <gergorycu> Silly me
13:56:35  <gergorycu> Thank you again
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14:01:11  <Ammler> SpComb: something like openttd --create-giant-screen yoursave.sav > yoursave.png
14:01:58  <SpComb> Ammler: that would be useful, yes
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14:03:47  <SpComb> Ammler: it would also be neat if you could script a dedicated server to take a giant screenshot every 10 years or so
14:04:02  <Eddi|zuHause> pause the server first ;)
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14:04:49  <Eddi|zuHause> Brianetta made "webcam" shots for a while, until the blitter rewrite killed them
14:05:25  <Xaroth> yeh :(
14:06:13  <Eddi|zuHause> you shouldn't need much more than changing the blitter to enable screenshots
14:06:30  <SpComb> the JS frontend's starting to be in pretty good shape now, apart from some bugs with the coordinates getting corrupted if zooming too fast
14:07:21  <Ammler> sometimes, my half screen is grey
14:07:43  <SpComb> Ammler: slow update or it stays stuck like that until you move it again?
14:08:04  <Eddi|zuHause> i think for me it was the latter
14:08:28  <SpComb> it's probably some kind of race-condition with the event handling :(
14:08:33  <Ammler> SpComb, yes, the latter
14:08:47  <SpComb> unless it has the window size wrong, a refresh should fix that
14:08:50  <Ammler> the faster I move the more gets grey
14:09:50  <SpComb> hmm.. grey as in the background color?
14:09:58  <Ammler> yes, I guess
14:10:00  <SpComb> sometimes I manage to select/higlight the <img> elements, which is annoying
14:10:20  <Ammler> yep, the get blueish...
14:10:25  <SpComb> ah yes
14:10:45  <SpComb> it's just the mouse cursor doing funny tricks, presumably in the area where the images aren't yet fully loaded
14:11:05  <SpComb> but as long as the #foo stuff is working, refreshing the page should get you back to where you were
14:11:06  <Ammler> or in that part, which get grey
14:12:14  <SpComb> would need some CSS trick to make the bits un-selectable
14:12:25  <SpComb> but, I must go, just realized I'm already late
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14:33:14  <Timmaexx> New Airports is really nice!+
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14:38:39  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... is there an ingame way to remove old AIs?
14:38:46  <Eddi|zuHause> i have NoCAB v19 and v336, that doesn't look right ;)
14:39:21  <glx> not ingame
14:40:00  <glx> looks correct if the savegame used v19 and a new AI started with v336 later
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14:41:36  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r18763 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 2 dirs): -Feature [FS#3095]: rerandomise AIs on reloading (via the debug window) when they were randomly chosen
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14:43:21  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r18764 /trunk/src/ (12 files in 2 dirs): -Fix [FS#3422]: split the (un)load ticks counter and signal wait counter; sometimes they might get into eachother's way
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14:57:16  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r18765 /trunk/src/graph_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#3499] (r18750): crash when trying to show cargo payments when there are 'holes' in the cargospec array
15:00:45  <Timmaexx> Why does the colour of planes change, if they land on NewAirports?
15:03:51  <Rubidium> because of a bug?
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15:07:00  <Zuu> Timmaexx: Does they?
15:07:19  <Timmaexx> Zuu: Jep
15:07:28  <Zuu> Didn't notice..
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15:08:19  <Timmaexx> I had a green FFP Dart wich is green like the colour of company and if it lands, and is on diagonal airport, its colour changes to some kind of darkgreen
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15:08:45  <Zuu> Did you manage to order an aircraft to go to the land based turbine?
15:10:07  <Zuu> hmm, yes, there seems to be something shading the airplane
15:15:58  <Zuu> Are you sure you had an FFP Dart? I can't order large aircrafts to the diagonal airport.
15:21:09  <Zuu> The water turbine is interesting. You can't join a dock with it nor an airport.
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15:24:28  <Timmaexx> Think it was bakewell luckett lb9 sorry
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15:33:45  <__ln>
15:33:53  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r18766 /trunk/src/ (rail.h table/railtypes.h train_cmd.cpp): -Codechange: Make train acceleration type (rail/elrail/monorail vs maglev) a rail type property
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16:05:37  <Eddi|zuHause> :p
16:05:49  <Eddi|zuHause> damn
16:05:52  <Eddi|zuHause> i meant
16:05:53  <Eddi|zuHause> :o
16:13:45  <Eddi|zuHause> __ln: looks photoshopped...
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16:36:23  <Muxy> has someone recently compiled trunk with MSVC 2005 ?
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16:40:10  <Muxy> *compiled successfully i mean
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16:48:59  <Zuu> Not recently, migrated to 2008 some 6 months ago or so.
16:49:11  <Zuu> Did you just install 2005?
16:49:21  <Zuu> Ie, did you install the service pack?
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16:50:06  <Muxy> not installed recently, not modified since november 2009
16:50:47  <Muxy> release 8.0.50727.762 SP.050727-7600 pfff
16:52:49  <Muxy> lot of warning with var re-declaration in for loop with var declared in the function body
16:53:16  <Muxy> and 2 id not declared
16:53:37  <Muxy> coz of #define strangly placed
16:56:00  <Muxy> problem located into network/core/os_bastraction.h on line 43 #define AI_ADRCONFIG is not set in win32
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16:56:50  <Zuu> I can't help you, but for the person who maybe can help you, what version of OpenTTD is it that you try to compile?
16:57:04  <Muxy> trunk
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16:58:11  <Rubidium> 2005? Maybe the PSDK is too old?
16:59:19  <Muxy> Rubidium: problem in os_abstraction.h line 43 with #define AI_ADDRCONFIG who is not active in Win32
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16:59:50  * Muxy thinks line 39 #else should be replaced with #endif
17:01:43  <Eddi|zuHause> Muxy: if it worked before, it is generally advised to find the revision that broke it by bisection
17:01:49  <glx> nothing changed there recently IIRC
17:02:04  <Muxy> yeap Eddi, good advise.
17:03:20  <Rubidium> Muxy: the problem is that with TOO old platform SDKs that isn't defined
17:03:20  * Muxy will load 0.7.5 release and check
17:03:44  <Rubidium> the existing define is for mingw/cygwin
17:04:17  <Rubidium> and it's quite simple... it's happened just before IPv6 support got into trunk
17:04:28  <Rubidium> so, a month of 8-ish ago
17:04:35  <Muxy> it means that AI_ADDRCONFIG is not used in Win32 MSVC
17:05:02  <Muxy> and should be defined in more recent SKD then
17:05:04  <Rubidium> as 0.7 was branched before IPv6 support, that doesn't have that code
17:05:35  <glx> Muxy: it is defined in platform SDK
17:05:50  <glx> and it is used :)
17:05:55  <Muxy> okay, then i will update my SDK as Rubidium said
17:07:25  <glx> I have 6.0A and it's ok there (SDK installed by 2008 express)
17:07:45  <Rubidium> "The AI_ADDRCONFIG flag is defined on the Windows SDK for Windows Vista and later"
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17:19:50  <Cathal> hey
17:20:05  <Cathal> anyone there
17:20:18  <Alberth> no, everyone is asleep
17:20:33  <Cathal> alright, i'll call back another time :P
17:21:05  <Alberth> something you want to know?
17:21:18  <Cathal> Yeah, so r u involved in modifying OpenTTD?
17:21:34  <Alberth> no irc speak please
17:21:47  <Cathal> whats irc speak?
17:21:49  <Alberth> some times
17:22:02  <Alberth> 'words' like    r    and   u
17:22:29  <Cathal> whats wrong with ircspeak, we r in an irc
17:22:35  <Alberth> it is hard to read
17:23:09  <Cathal> Alright, apologies. So what part of the project are you involved in my good man?
17:23:51  <Alberth> I changed all widgets in all windows, currently looking for something else
17:24:24  <sawtooth> how much for that widget in the window?
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17:25:03  <andythenorth_> @seen yexo
17:25:03  <DorpsGek> andythenorth_: yexo was last seen in #openttd 18 hours, 52 minutes, and 29 seconds ago: <Yexo> andythenorth: it's be as simple as a single varaction2 (not a varaction2 chain, a single sprite)
17:25:32  <Alberth> andythenorth_: he was here this morning, but left
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17:25:47  <Cathal> Nice, sounds good. So has anyone here ever played the game Cossacks, I've started a mod project for it, wondering if anyone is interested in helping?
17:25:54  <Alberth> andythenorth_: he said 'see you on monday'
17:26:18  <andythenorth_> Alberth: thanks
17:26:28  <andythenorth_> New airports work in progress is *way* cool
17:26:36  <Alberth> Cathal: wouldn't #cossacks not be a better place to ask?
17:27:12  <Alberth> andythenorth_: yes the diagonal airport looks great :)    I need to try it some time soon
17:28:27  <andythenorth_> If the state machine could handle loading while hovering....helicopter logging awaits :)
17:28:32  <andythenorth_> And heli-skiing :)
17:28:36  <Cathal> Just went there, but its empty, i'm sorry for the self promotion, just seeking some help, and everyone here does have some interest in game modification as a hobby, so it seems like a good place to start
17:29:30  <Alberth> Cathal: it could very easily be seen as spamming arbitrary channels with off-topic questions
17:29:46  <Alberth> Cathal: at least I interpret it as such
17:29:57  <Alberth> andythenorth_: all in good time :)
17:30:15  <andythenorth_> yes well, of course :)
17:30:24  <andythenorth_> drawing graphics would also take some time :)
17:30:45  <Alberth> andythenorth_: the whole state machine stuff worries me a bit, it looks so complicated to get right.
17:31:16  <andythenorth_> me too
17:32:35  <Cathal> I know, its too bad that IRC is so filled with trolls these days that genuine users have difficulty using them. I've already started off with the project, just looking for some help with ideas and such. Here is a link to the temporary home of the project until I can get a proper domain sorted (
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17:37:46  <DaZ> y, cossacks  were awesome.
17:40:15  <Ammler> doesn't look opensource or cross platform.
17:43:26  <Cathal> Really no-one is modifying Cossacks on a large scale, i think it has quite a lot of potential. Its not opensource but the developers are open to players modifying the game themselves, they released a modification utility pack, which is easy to use, it basically involves modifying .txt files, allowing almost any aspect of the game to be altered
17:44:24  <frosch123> .txt? why not .xml?
17:44:39  <frosch123> (sorry, insider joke)
17:45:59  <Eddi|zuHause> the modding ability of Civ4 is insane, they released basically the entire source code, except the graphics engine and the copy protection
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17:51:15  <Cathal> Thanks for listening anyway guys, just come to the site if you change your mind
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17:58:34  <Muxy> PSDK update sucessfull. back to adapt watch company to trunk
17:58:59  <andythenorth_> frosch123: some ponies escaped...
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18:01:44  <PeterT> Where do I report somebody on the wiki named "LordAro"?
18:02:06  *** sparr [] has joined #openttd
18:03:42  <frosch123> LordAro, isn't that the one who disliked mixing his letters?
18:04:09  <PeterT> can you explain the phrase "mixing his letters"?
18:06:00  <frosch123> andythenorth_: already read it, and already collected the stuff that accumulated on my desk wrt. parameters over the last months, which resulted in a largerish text... might finish it after doing some other stuff :s
18:06:12  <andythenorth_> :)
18:06:43  <frosch123> PeterT:
18:06:57  <frosch123> andythenorth_: but mind, that i am usually better in talking than implementing :p
18:07:34  <PeterT> frosch123: I see.
18:07:35  *** rhaeder [~quix0r@] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
18:07:42  <PeterT> So, How do I report him, exactly/
18:07:53  <andythenorth_> frosch123: I have more newgrf sets finished in my brain than in reality
18:07:55  <andythenorth_> :P
18:07:59  <PeterT> He's been making images smaller so that they can fit HIS screen
18:08:18  <Rubidium> PeterT: what is there to report?
18:08:29  <PeterT> Rubidium: Above you
18:09:04  <Eddi|zuHause> PeterT: the historically proper action in wiki-evolution is an "edit war" ;)
18:09:34  <PeterT> or "who-can-make-the-most-reverts-in-a-day war"
18:09:59  <Rubidium> I can make the most reverts in a day
18:10:30  <PeterT> I know
18:10:33  <frosch123> why, an edit fight about 3 pixels?
18:10:37  <Rubidium> anyhow, what's the point in reverting something that makes the page look *way* better on his computer if it's a fracking 3 pixels?
18:10:48  <Rubidium> although, 3 pixels are not enough
18:11:01  <Rubidium> also... who's the person that just trashed a complete page without good reason?
18:11:27  <PeterT> if you're referring to my user talk, that would be me
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18:15:08  <Rubidium> also... deleting stuff from talk pages isn't needed at all. It's good to keep those as it describes the reasoning for things
18:15:11  <PeterT> Rubidium: The point was that I don't want LordAro on my page... at all
18:15:39  <PeterT>
18:15:47  <Rubidium> it's not your page
18:16:00  <Eddi|zuHause> PeterT: with that attitude, please go sit in your corner and don't touch the wiki at all
18:16:46  <Eddi|zuHause> it's a wiki, it's per definition not anybody's page.
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18:18:15  <PeterT> Eddi|zuHause: Then can I go to LordAro's userpage and call him stupid?
18:19:12  <Rubidium> well... it has been done and no amount of removing stuff (by you) gets it out of the history of the page
18:19:48  <PeterT> I didn't do it
18:20:12  <Eddi|zuHause> PeterT: insult is a crime in most jurisdiction, has nothing to do with who the page belongs to.
18:20:49  <Rubidium> and where on the page did he call you stupid?
18:21:33  <PeterT> "<PeterT>
18:22:52  <Rubidium> so... then you could have asked for removing that instead of removing his valid comment (and all others) on the talk page
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18:24:46  <PeterT> that's true
18:25:55  <andythenorth_> PeterT: just go and play the game and get over it.  life is too short for internet pissant nonsense
18:26:03  * andythenorth_ lost the game
18:29:55  <andythenorth_> Terkhen: for FIRS, is it the number of industries on the map, or the number of industry types that is disturbing? :o
18:32:39  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth_: my experience with ECS is that the increase in industry types also increases the raw number of industries on the map
18:32:55  <andythenorth_> Eddi|zuHause: true, but that's quite easily dealt with
18:33:08  <PeterT> Has anybody had success building a 64-bit build on a 32-bit system with MSVC?
18:33:18  <PeterT> (or any compiler, for that fact)
18:33:23  <andythenorth_> the probability is easy to control, and someone has written a nice method for scaling probablity with map size
18:34:02  <Eddi|zuHause> imho the method to scale with mapsize is one of the problems
18:34:32  <Eddi|zuHause> some people want bigger maps to have more stuff on it, and other people want bigger maps to have more space inbetween
18:34:34  <glx> PeterT: yes any user with full MSVC
18:34:54  <PeterT> Ah, not just Express Editions
18:35:09  <glx> express version don't have 64bit compilers
18:35:43  <andythenorth_> Eddi|zuHause: but there's an option :)  "No. of industries"
18:37:29  <Eddi|zuHause> imho, the industry density options should include different scaling (e.g. "very low" doesn't scale at all above 256, "low" scales linearly, "high" scales quadratically)
18:38:11  <Terkhen> andythenorth_: both, but the number of industries on the map is easily solved
18:38:53  <andythenorth_> Terkhen: have you ever played with PBI?
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18:39:24  <Terkhen> yes... but I didn't like stockpiling
18:39:34  <andythenorth_> fair enough
18:40:09  <andythenorth_> I am trying to judge how many industries is 'right' for basic FIRS.   There is no typical player of course :)
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18:41:24  <Terkhen> is this information available as a graph somewhere?
18:42:06  <Eddi|zuHause> i remember i had some tries with graphs in the thread
18:42:14  <andythenorth_> Terkhen: George3 did one, it's out of date now.
18:42:15  <andythenorth_>
18:43:13  <Terkhen> thanks
18:43:16  <Eddi|zuHause> it's fairly difficult to get nice looking graphs out of graphviz
18:43:57  <andythenorth_> some thing like this is needed:
18:44:20  <andythenorth_> Incidentally, RT3 has about 48 industries...
18:45:02  <andythenorth_> FIRS currently builds about 35.  I've deleted about 9, and I'm trying to find more to delete.
18:45:09  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r18767 /trunk/src/lang/english.txt: -Fix: min/max income tooltips for the details performance statistics mentioned months whereas it should be quarters.
18:45:39  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r18768 /trunk/src/lang/ (6 files): (log message trimmed)
18:45:39  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:39  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: croatian - 36 changes by
18:45:39  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: czech - 4 changes by ReisRyos
18:45:39  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: dutch - 61 changes by Hirundo
18:45:40  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: finnish - 1 changes by jpx_
18:45:40  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: indonesian - 43 changes by fanioz
18:47:31  <andythenorth_> I think I'll get rid of the dairy farm / milk chain, that's two industries gone
18:48:49  <Terkhen> andythenorth_: I want to try FIRS anyways, without knowing its industry scheme I can't give an opinion about which industries should be removed... but I see a lot of industry chains that end up producing food so probably milk chain is a good option
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19:19:07  <PeterT> Any solutions to this?
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19:21:26  <Hirundo> Link to 'Compiling' ?
19:23:44  <andythenorth_> proposal for *much* smaller FIRS
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19:26:30  <Terkhen> water plant and water tower are missing
19:28:47  <andythenorth_> Terkhen: I've updated the proposal.  The list given is Temperate / Arctic only.  Tropic would include Water
19:28:52  <andythenorth_> thanks though :)
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19:43:42  <fjb> Hm, basic FIRS and later themed add on packs?
19:44:12  <andythenorth_> fjb: something like that.  I have a plan.
19:44:21  <andythenorth_> I couldn't care less about basic FIRS, it's boring
19:44:36  <andythenorth_> but it might be necessary
19:45:25  <Terkhen> for newbies like me :P
19:45:43  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, two levels of complexity sound ok
19:45:52  <sparr> which GRFs do I need to load with ECS to get vehicles that can carry the new resources (particularly sand)?
19:46:03  <Eddi|zuHause> in george's ECS you can reduce complexity by leaving out vectors
19:46:22  <Eddi|zuHause> sparr: depends
19:46:40  <Eddi|zuHause> sparr: easiest is probably "old wagons, new cargos"
19:46:42  <sparr> I played my first game with ECS recently, and couldn't transport sand
19:46:53  <andythenorth_> NARS 2 is pretty comprehensive
19:47:07  <andythenorth_> should support ECS fine
19:47:12  <Eddi|zuHause> the DBSetXL needs an ECS extension
19:47:33  <Eddi|zuHause> otherwise pretty much all major train sets should support ECS
19:48:34  <andythenorth_> hmmm....the thing that really sucks about my FIRS basic proposal is that it's just mostly the default industries
19:48:34  <fjb> And the popular road vehicle sets do.
19:49:10  <sparr> fjb: "the popular road vehicle sets" is unhelpful.  pretend you're talking to someone who isn't already familiar with every GRF available
19:50:17  <fjb> sparr: Just take a look at GRF crawler.
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19:50:38  <andythenorth_> meh.  if 9 out of 21 FIRS industries already exist in the default game, where's the interest?
19:50:51  * fjb is.
19:51:17  <andythenorth_> sparr was sulky :o
19:51:18  <sparr> fjb: and pick one at random?
19:51:27  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth_: i like PBI because it does not add too much clutter, like ECS does.
19:51:39  <sparr> andythenorth_: thanks, I'll use NARS
19:51:41  <andythenorth_> sparr: try eGRVTS and HEQS.  Or LV4
19:51:54  <Eddi|zuHause> it does fine with adding complexity without adding a lot more industries
19:52:02  <sparr> it seems like there should be some sort of dependency system, so that the game would warn a player before starting a game with ECS without vehicles that can transport ECS cargos
19:52:12  <fjb> FIRS has nicer graphics and industries changing over time were announced as a feature.
19:52:23  <Eddi|zuHause> sparr: that is impossible to decide...
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19:52:42  <sparr> or if not a dependency system then an actual check...  list of cargos, list of transportable cargos
19:53:01  <sparr> hell, you could just count...  if there are 17 cargo types and only 12 transportable cargos, something is wrong
19:53:23  <Eddi|zuHause> sparr: again, that is impossible, because available cargos might be dependent on some conditions
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19:53:37  <fjb> sparr: Do you need somebody who binds you shoe laces?
19:53:45  <sparr> fjb: yes, would you?  :-p
19:53:50  <sparr> Eddi|zuHause: what sort of conditions?
19:54:00  <fjb> Definitely not.
19:54:10  * Terkhen wonders if OpenGFX+ will have standard-like vehicles to carry new cargos
19:54:39  <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: no, as that is a change of gameplay, which cannot be part of a base set
19:54:58  <Terkhen> OpenGFX+, not OpenGFX
19:55:03  <Eddi|zuHause> ah...
19:55:09  <Eddi|zuHause> not sure what that is ;)
19:55:31  <Rubidium> whatever they want to be in OpenGFX but can't put in it
19:55:49  <sparr> fjb: I wanted to try ECS. The documentation (read: forum post) for ECS said I should be good with any subset of the ECS GRFs.  I naively assumed that the game wouldn't be dumb enough to start an unplayable game
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19:56:17  <sparr> fjb: assuming such a check could be implemented, which may be impossible, what is the use case where such an unplayable game is a desirable outcome?
19:57:29  <sparr> JigabuMemin is spamming
19:57:41  <JigabuMemin> I am not
19:58:32  <fjb> sparr: The game is not unplayable only because not every cargo can be transported. And why should somebody who wants to only transport some of the cargoes be forced to load other vehicle sets?
20:00:08  <sparr> fjb: "some" is random, and possibly inaccurate.  are there GRFs that replace all of the cargos?  or that replace all of the base trains with non-standard cargo trains?
20:01:10  <sparr> or, more generally, can there be?
20:01:10  <Eddi|zuHause> sparr: the problem is not "are there GRFs" but rather "could there possibly be GRFs"
20:01:14  <andythenorth_> fjb: for FIRS basic around 3 industries would change between 1900 and 1930, that's about it for changing
20:01:18  <sparr> Eddi|zuHause: yes
20:01:26  <Eddi|zuHause> as in "does the GRF spec allow implementing this"
20:01:46  <sparr> if it does, then such an unplayable game is possible, and the argument in favor of the check I am advocating is stronger
20:02:13  <Eddi|zuHause> sparr: there is no warning if you start too early either.
20:02:34  <sparr> yes, that is also quite annoying, I've done that a couple of times (once with different GRFs)
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20:03:53  <sparr> taking a step back, I think the more general issue that I am trying to point out is that there is no way to get most sorts of information about GRFs (their compatibility with each other being one case) without playing through the game
20:05:03  <sparr> I never have any idea if/when new vehicles are coming, or which wagons work with which locomotives, or whether a particular GRF just adds new things or also removes old things
20:05:29  <andythenorth> sparr: the better grf sets include a read me
20:06:06  <sparr> how do you know if they do, via the online content service?  or find it, if they do?
20:06:25  <sparr> I happen to be comfortable digging around in ~/.openttd, but I think I am unusual in that respect.
20:06:37  *** JigabuMemin [] has quit [autokilled: Do not spam other people. Mail if you feel this is in error. (2010-01-09 20:06:37)]
20:06:44  <andythenorth> it's a valid point, we discussed it a few days ago
20:06:47  <andythenorth> no solution though
20:07:14  <SpComb> GRFs are confusing, yes
20:09:50  <fjb> And it's just a game. So play around with it.
20:10:31  <SpComb> well, it's annoying to notice you're missing some wagons late in the game
20:10:45  <SpComb> and various gotchas like food in alpine
20:11:13  <sparr> what SpComb said
20:11:19  <sparr> if I knew up front, it wouldn't be a problem
20:11:19  *** George3 is now known as George
20:11:30  <sparr> but when I find out 8 hours into a game...  :(
20:11:58  <SpComb> but basically, you depend on the NewGRF projects themselves to get that info
20:13:25  <sparr> they have no easy way to get it to me
20:13:32  <sparr> easy for them and/or easy for me
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20:16:29  <sparr> anyway, on another topic...
20:17:14  <sparr> a message that tells you when a delivery would have made more money had it been shorter.  thoughts?
20:17:36  <Eddi|zuHause> wtf?
20:19:11  <sparr> there's a message when a vehicle has negative yearly profit
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20:20:21  <sparr> i recently became aware of the nature of the cargo delivery value function, and the quirk that shorter deliveries pay more in some situations.  i'd like to know that on a per-delivery basis, without having to fake a measurement tool and do a bunch of math manually
20:21:44  <andythenorth> sparr: use the cargo graphs?
20:22:06  <sparr> andythenorth: there was a patch to provide such graphs, but it's a few thousand revisions out of date
20:22:22  <sparr> unless I am missing something
20:22:30  <andythenorth> what's wrong with cargo payment rate graphs?
20:23:03  <sparr> their mathematical implications are not clear
20:23:09  <fjb> andythenorth: You have to think by your own.
20:23:17  <sparr> *I* can't do that math in my head
20:23:20  <sparr> and I'm pretty good at math
20:24:04  <sparr>  <-- this
20:24:54  <sparr> the math involved in determining that ~140 tiles is the optimal delivery distance for Valuables (at 33km/h) is nontrivial
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20:25:49  <Rubidium> the optimimum is, at least for slow vehicles 4000-ish tiles
20:25:57  <sparr> ?
20:26:32  <sparr> oh, you mean the part of the graph after the bump
20:26:32  <Rubidium> travel time is capped at something like 2 game years
20:27:16  <sparr> valuables at 33km/h pay more for 140 tiles than for 300 tiles
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20:28:09  <Rhamphoryncus> sparr: is that per-tile, per-time, per-investment, or per-production?
20:28:11  <Rubidium> so for the profit calculations the travel time is at that, so if a vehicle at speed N makes 400 tiles in 2 years, making 4000 tiles would take 20, but the vehicle would be paid as if it was going at speed N*10
20:29:24  <sparr> Rubidium: yes, for very slow vehicles.  for some definition of very slow.
20:30:20  <PeterT> Hirundo: Thanks for fixing the wiki
20:30:24  <PeterT> Didin't think of that ;-)
20:30:28  <sparr> Rhamphoryncus: all of the above, i think
20:31:25  <Rhamphoryncus> hrm right, they're related
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20:32:03  <Rhamphoryncus> My tendency has been to use super long routes
20:32:14  <sparr> as has mine
20:32:21  <sparr> for VERY long routes it can pay off
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20:32:28  <sparr> but there is a large gap where it pays less
20:32:43  <SpComb> how much does it matter?
20:33:05  <sparr> SpComb: considering ONLY income, factors of 2-3.
20:33:17  <sparr> SpComb: considering also all the extra infrastructure being wasted on the longer deliveries...  more.
20:33:31  * andythenorth grumpy
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20:34:33  <Rhamphoryncus> If you have an existing long track, but can only afford one train.. that'd push even more towards a shorter route, wouldn't it?
20:34:44  <sparr> yes
20:35:07  <sparr> if you aren't delivering the full capacity of the industry, that also makes the shorter route a stronger candidate
20:35:19  <sparr> if your track is at its train carrying capacity, then too
20:36:14  <Terkhen> andythenorth: because of the simplified FIRS?
20:36:23  *** Rhamphoryncus [] has quit [Quit: Rhamphoryncus]
20:36:57  <sparr> fjb: the math is complex enough, and the variables poorly documented enough, that I am not even sure that I am doing it right.
20:37:17  <sparr> I am relatively certain that the SHAPE of the data I am getting is right (that is, the peak and valley do exist), but their locations could be incorrect
20:37:24  <andythenorth> Terkhen: yes.  I think there's a way to do it right, but I'm not sure what yet.  You're by no means the only one who would like a simpler version.
20:40:16  <sparr> SpComb: taking a real game example...  delivering 100 units of coal at 144km/h (UKRS? cap), at 90% effective speed (accounting for track wiggles, turnarounds, etc), 660 tiles pays about 900, while 1100 tiles pays about 00
20:40:22  <Terkhen> the biggest problem is knowing what the user was really playing while debugging future problems?
20:40:38  <andythenorth> Terkhen: no, I think that's solvable
20:40:42  <sparr> SpComb: knowing this fundamentally changed my network design in two games
20:40:49  <andythenorth> the biggest problem is designing an entertaining gameplay :)
20:41:15  <sparr> 512x512 maps, so I WAS making some 900+ tile deliveries, until I learned this
20:42:18  <andythenorth> it's been suggested that Railroad Tycoon would be an ideal model for a 'simpler' new industry set
20:42:31  <andythenorth> but RT2 has 35 industries and RT3 has about 48
20:42:52  <andythenorth> I am trying to get FIRS down to about 24
20:43:15  <fjb> andythenorth: Don't hunt every suggestion. Railroad Tycoon is not TTD.
20:43:32  <Terkhen> I have never played any RT
20:43:34  <andythenorth> fjb: oddly enough, FIRS is almost entirely based on RT3
20:43:42  * andythenorth has played many hours of RT3
20:44:09  <andythenorth> About 24 is also the suggested number of industries for FIRS by players who want a simpler version
20:44:19  <andythenorth> so there are various contradictions I am trying to resolve
20:44:50  <Terkhen> and how will you add all other industries to the simple version? other GRFs?
20:44:56  <andythenorth> Parameter
20:45:01  <Eddi|zuHause> i have nothing against a "simple" and a "complex" version
20:45:18  <andythenorth> It will actually be nicer than just 'simple' and 'complex'
20:45:45  <andythenorth> With planetmaker's help, we have a way to use a single parameter to change several aspects of the gameplay
20:46:03  <andythenorth> this means FIRS will feature various full 'cargo economies'
20:46:25  <andythenorth> The cargo payment rates will vary, there will be some special 'bonus' industries, and the probability of industries on the map will vary
20:46:36  <PeterT> have you seen this? this is an amazing markup of new GUI:
20:46:45  <sparr> fjb: now, if YOU can do the math in your head, I would appreciate a confirmation that I am doing it right.  even if you can, that doesn't make it any less hard for the rest of us.  and if you can't, then your "you have to think by your own." was both condescending and hypocritical.
20:47:51  <fjb> andythenorth: That makes already the base set interesting.
20:48:19  <Eddi|zuHause> sparr: if you think it can be improved, how about you start implementing, instead of shouting around your incapacities?
20:48:31  <sparr> Eddi|zuHause: if I think what can be improved?
20:48:35  <andythenorth> fjb: the base set will just be parameter 0 - default, with normal cargo payment rates
20:48:57  <andythenorth> the other values for that parameter will be much more interesting...
20:49:09  <Terkhen> sounds good :)
20:49:25  <sparr> I am already trying to bring the New Graphs patch up to date, but it's old and fails a lot
20:50:11  <Eddi|zuHause> the window system changed a lot, you're probably going to have to rewrite most of it
20:50:34  <fjb> sparr: I make so much money in every game that I don't care for the optimum distance. And experience and some thinking tells me that it is unwise to send cargo which looses its value fast on long routes with slow vehicles.
20:50:42  <andythenorth> one more FIRS question: why would you even try FIRS instead of playing default industries?  (I ask as I have an idea about an alternative base set of industries)
20:51:12  * fjb would.
20:51:23  <andythenorth> fjb: why though?
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20:51:54  <fjb> I like your graphics better.
20:52:32  <sparr> fjb: actually, the cargos that lose value fast are more appropriate for long routes and slow vehicles.  so much for experience and thinking.
20:52:36  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: for me the reason to stop using default industries is that the industry chains are "simple" and nothing forces you to deliver to more than one secondary industry per map
20:52:44  <andythenorth> If FIRS didn't feature most of the default industries, would that appeal more or less?
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20:53:05  <andythenorth> No fricking power station for example :P
20:53:24  <sparr> fjb: the curve goes up to a peak, then down, then up again with no cap.  if the first peak is low/narrow enough, then the second upwards slope is the best case
20:53:36  <SpComb> hmm, MB's alpine grf readme doesn't really clarify the food situation
20:53:39  <Terkhen> because it is standard-like enough for me (no stockpiling, no GRF combinations) but adds new possibilities to the game, and more possible lines at a single game
20:53:42  <sparr> fjb: but if the first peak is high/wide, like it is for the non-perishable resources, then that peak is the best case
20:53:49  <SpComb> it just says that they need food, but it doens't say you can produce or transport it :P
20:54:08  <Terkhen> <andythenorth> If FIRS didn't feature most of the default industries, would that appeal more or less?  <--- as long as some necessary roles are fulfilled (moneymaker, etc), I don't think it would matter
20:54:10  <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: i think that alpine 0.2 comes with the readme for alpine 0.1
20:54:29  <SpComb>
20:54:45  <sparr> fjb: i assume you have a lot more experience with openttd than i do.  that you would get this wrong illustrates how non-obvious the behavior is
20:54:49  <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: my knowledge about alpine food comes from confronting HIM with it
20:55:34  <fjb> sparr: You also have to take the vehicle running costs over that time into account and the turn around time.
20:55:36  <SpComb> but doesn't temparate have some kind of snow line as well now?
20:55:50  <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: no, only in TTDPatch
20:56:01  <SpComb> confusing
20:56:51  <SpComb> but alpine + PBI = no-no
20:57:04  <andythenorth> in default TTD, transporting oil pretty much always sucks.  Would it be too weird if oil refineries produced fuel and chemicals with ni input cargo?
20:57:12  <andythenorth> IRL lots of oil is delivered by pipeline anyway
20:58:32  <Terkhen> I have tried a lot of times transporting oil with ships... very frustrating, I wouldn't miss it
20:58:32  <sparr> fjb: running costs are linear.  turn around time is effectively constant.  i fail to see how either of those are factors?
20:58:32  <fjb> We need pipelines.
20:58:43  <andythenorth> fjb: we do.  but we don't :P
20:59:27  <andythenorth> fjb: bingo, a way to implement pipelines
20:59:34  <andythenorth> use a railtype
20:59:52  <sparr> fjb: regardless of all the factors...  the point remains that for SOME cargos, on SOME map sizes, delivering halfway across the map is more profitable than delivering all the way across the map.  and figuring that information out is Hard.
20:59:54  <fjb> sparr: Just try it out.
20:59:58  <SpComb> and invisible vehicles
21:00:02  <andythenorth> use invisible trains.  Make them maximum speed, no runnign cost
21:00:11  <andythenorth> oh yes what SpComb  said
21:00:21  <andythenorth> you'd still have to route vehicles
21:00:27  <SpComb> and get them back
21:00:40  <andythenorth> it could be implemented with newgrf, no patch needed
21:00:44  <Eddi|zuHause> sparr: imho that's a "bug", not a "feature"
21:00:47  <sparr> I doubt there's anyone in here who could come up with the optimal delivery distances without at least a calculator
21:01:20  <sparr> Eddi|zuHause: I am inclined to agree, esp considering that it makes perishable goods BETTER to deliver long distances
21:01:36  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: a pipeline doesn't have "infinite speed"
21:01:38  <sparr> Eddi|zuHause: that is, coal is better at 500 tiles than at 1000, but fruit is better at 1000 than 500
21:02:03  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: why not code the grf and set the correct speed then :D
21:02:44  <sparr> Eddi|zuHause: which seems to be opposite the original intent
21:03:06  <fjb> andythenorth: Pipelines have also to be routed. So no problem.
21:03:16  <andythenorth> someone get coding then...
21:03:22  <andythenorth> let me know when it's done :)
21:03:39  <sparr> pipelines don't have to run both directions :)
21:04:03  <Terkhen> use trams then
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21:04:31  <andythenorth> hmm.. would need new road types for that.  What's peter1138 up to right now?
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21:05:08  <fjb> One way vehicles.
21:06:08  <andythenorth> fjb: not in the current newgrf spec :o
21:07:22  <Eddi|zuHause> sparr: like i said before, your criticism lacks constructivity
21:07:35  <sparr> Eddi|zuHause: ??
21:08:03  <sparr> I am tring to get the New Graphs patch to work.  It didn't get into trunk last time, probably won't again this time, but at least I'm trying.
21:08:21  <sparr> I'm not the one who brought up the cargo payment rates being a bug
21:09:08  * Terkhen is out of things to code
21:09:29  <SpComb> Terkhen: fractional days in timetables
21:10:12  <Eddi|zuHause> sparr: then would you accept a feature request: show not only the theoretical delivery graph, but also a histogram about how actual deliveries in {the last | this} year position on that graph
21:10:14  <Terkhen> I understand a lot of parts of the code by now, but I still have to understand how timetables work ingame :P
21:10:44  <sparr> Eddi|zuHause: I can try.  that will require a lot more changes, but it doesn't seem impossible
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21:11:06  <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: the ITiM patch needs updating to the new window system, and parts of it have gone to trunk, so that needs fiddling
21:11:37  <Eddi|zuHause> doesn't need much knowledge about how the timetables actually work ;)
21:13:40  <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: alternately, a system how to introduce more fine grained payments (values < 1?)
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21:14:09  <Terkhen> I would find frustrating to code something that I don't understand... I get that feeling too much already when coding for my classes
21:14:42  <Terkhen> why do you need decimal payments?
21:14:52  <Eddi|zuHause> both internal representation, conversion factor and rounding for other currencies and a decimal separator for display
21:15:36  <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: daylength could benefit from it
21:15:42  <Terkhen> I thought that was already handled, besides showing decimal payments at the GUI
21:16:09  <Eddi|zuHause> not that i know
21:17:19  <Terkhen> I still have to try the latest daylenght patch (it seems simpler), but the other ones seem overcomplicated to me
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21:18:35  <Eddi|zuHause> all daylength patches i have seen had the problem that monthly/yearly costs were multiplied by daylength, instead of delivery costs reduced
21:18:46  <Terkhen> I almost completed a conversion of the standard vehicles and industries to simulate daylength, but I was missing a crucial feature
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21:20:54  <Terkhen> that sounds reasonable, I suppose delivery costs are not reduced because of the internal representation not allows operating with smaller values
21:21:50  *** Tennel [] has joined #openttd
21:21:51  <andythenorth> Terkhen: do you understand anything of the code that supports nfo / newgrf?
21:21:54  <Eddi|zuHause> exactly. i once tried to reduce payment, but my trams ended up getting 0 payment
21:23:12  <Terkhen> andythenorth: only really simple stuff, I know how to add vehicle properties to action 0 and to callback 36
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21:23:32  <Terkhen> and just because I only had to add new options to existing code
21:23:57  <andythenorth> oh well.
21:24:35  <andythenorth>
21:24:51  <andythenorth> I was wondering about industry var 68
21:24:59  <andythenorth> and extending it...
21:25:33  <SpComb> Terkhen: simpler is an understatement
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21:28:49  <Terkhen> SpComb: just a single parameter to influence everything, right?
21:28:58  *** heffer [] has joined #openttd
21:29:14  <SpComb> Terkhen: well, in terms of the actual .patch
21:30:04  <Terkhen> are you planning to introduce more parameters?
21:30:43  <SpComb> not really
21:30:53  <SpComb> although it may end up being a necessity
21:30:58  <SpComb> but it's something to avoid
21:31:24  <Terkhen> sounds good then, I'll try it in my next game
21:33:26  <Eddi|zuHause> i always modded my daylength patches to not add the value to the savegame, makes porting the savegame to newer versions easier
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21:35:19  <andythenorth>
21:35:21  <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause: I did consider that, but breaking savegame compat is something you tend to end up doing anyways :(
21:36:01  <Terkhen> my builds always break savegame compatibility, as a result I usually don't bother about porting my games to new versions
21:36:55  *** sparrL [] has joined #openttd
21:38:12  <asilv> andythenorth: is there need for both gravel and sand? as they are quite similar cargoes and could be imo merged into one more generic cargo?
21:38:19  *** Dred_furst [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
21:38:30  <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause: did you find a good fix for the timetable autofill?
21:38:43  *** Tennel_ [~andreas@] has quit []
21:38:57  <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: i didn't search for one
21:38:59  *** fjb [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:39:10  <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: likely there's one in ITiM
21:39:37  <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause: I mean, didn't you patch in something yourself?
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21:40:03  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, replacing it by ORIG_DAY_TICKS
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21:40:26  <Eddi|zuHause> actually, no
21:40:31  <Eddi|zuHause> i added a new constant
21:40:36  <Eddi|zuHause> and set that to 100 ticks
21:40:37  <andythenorth> SpComb: gravel should have had a question mark next to it.  The main reason is that IRL cement requires both sand and gravel.  I want sand for the Glass Works.  So...gravel could be optional.
21:40:49  <Eddi|zuHause> makes for nicer numbers ;)
21:41:03  <Terkhen> I just remembered... does anyone knows how could I force the inlining of these templated functions?
21:41:07  <SpComb> well, I'm considering posting a patch for ORIG_DAY_TICKS
21:41:20  <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause: did it work ok in terms of actual in-game use?
21:41:50  <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: i have seen nothing wrong, but i didn't play much since then
21:42:00  <Terkhen> I want to optimize the unified acceleration code as much as posible... as it stands now I don't think it is usable in games with a lot of vehicles
21:43:06  <Terkhen> well, it is usable, I meant preferable
21:45:34  <SpComb> Terkhen: fractional timetables!
21:45:47  <SpComb> c'mon, all my timetables show up as "0 days" now
21:51:20  *** fjb [] has joined #openttd
21:52:26  <andythenorth> Terkhen: how would this industry llist look to you?
21:52:30  <andythenorth> Fun or too many?
21:54:31  <Terkhen> SpComb: I'd prefer to get feedback at the projects I still have to finish (which at this point is mostly all of them) before starting new ones... I'll have to learn how timetables work sooner or later, though
21:54:38  *** Rubix`` [] has quit [Quit: Ping timeout: 540 seconds]
21:55:06  <Terkhen> andythenorth: looking good, enough to be challenging, but not too many
21:56:03  <andythenorth> There would be about 2 or 3 more
21:56:21  <Terkhen> I'm missing a power plant... coal is used at the metal foundry?
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21:57:17  <andythenorth> coal used at steel mill, cement plant.  maybe at the fuel depot
21:57:25  <andythenorth> I'm so bored of the mine-> power plant chain
21:58:03  <Terkhen> me too... there is no moneymaker chain then?
21:58:26  <andythenorth> money maker chain is whatever I set highest cargo rate to :)
21:58:39  <sparrL> delivering water at 32km/h there is a payment peak around 100 tiles, then it goes down and comes back up around 420
21:58:48  <sparrL> so delivering between 100 and 420 tiles is not worthwhile
21:58:50  <sparrL> i THINK
21:59:07  <andythenorth> Terkhen: money maker chain in FIRS basic would probably still be coal so it's familiar to players
21:59:42  <andythenorth> Coal -> steel mill (steel) -> machine shop (engineering supplies) -> coal mine (production booster)
21:59:58  <Terkhen> as long as it is not "dump coal here, receive money"... :P
22:00:03  <andythenorth> or coal -> steel mill (steel) -> foundry (goods) -> town
22:00:15  <andythenorth> or one of two other routes to get the other two production boost cargos :)
22:00:28  <glx> I hope it's simpler than ECS :)
22:00:57  <andythenorth> glx: interesting.  Would you be someone who would like FIRS to be 'simple' ? :)
22:01:24  <glx> not simple but understandable by a normal human :)
22:01:31  <Terkhen> being simpler than ECS doesn't means that it is simple :P
22:01:46  <andythenorth> glx: what's complex about ECS for you?
22:03:26  <glx> too many complex chains, all depending on each other
22:04:05  <andythenorth> glx: what makes a good chain for you?
22:04:42  <frosch123> andythenorth: pony manual is ready :p
22:04:59  <glx> <andythenorth> or coal -> steel mill (steel) -> foundry (goods) -> town <-- that is a good one
22:05:29  <frosch123> euh, this channel is quite spammy today, isn't it
22:05:36  <glx> but any chain not needed 2 other chains is good too :)
22:05:38  <sparrL> fjb: can you confirm those numbers?
22:05:50  <andythenorth> glx: coal -> steel mill would produce some steel
22:05:51  <glx> *needing
22:05:58  <andythenorth> coal + iron -> steel mill produces more steel
22:06:10  <sparrL> just coal produces steel?
22:06:12  <andythenorth> yes
22:06:14  <sparrL> i would think the other way around
22:06:18  <andythenorth> well, it's less fun
22:06:24  <sparrL> just iron produces some, iron+coal produces more
22:06:40  <andythenorth> that would be more realistic.  but not as fun in the game
22:07:41  <andythenorth> glx: 100t coal produces 50t steel.  100t iron produces 50t steel.  100t steel + 100t iron produces 150t steel.  And there are no stockpile limits....
22:07:49  <fjb> sparrL: I can not confirm anything without more parameters. Which vehicle set, which landscape between both points, which game year?
22:08:09  <frosch123> sounds fine. there would be no steelmill on the map if it has not already some basic supply of steel and coal
22:08:20  <frosch123> the task of the player is to improve the supply
22:08:33  <sparrL> fjb: what effect do those factors have?  landscape is somewhat variable, but assume i will build the shortest flattest route possible
22:08:56  <sparrL> vehicle set is eGRTVS i think
22:09:38  <andythenorth> frosch123: "If the host cannot interpret that information (as it is a build without YASP2), it just ignores it and continues."
22:09:48  <andythenorth> would immediately be valuable for something like new airports
22:10:00  <sparrL> for the sake of discussion, assume a completely flat roat with no turns, going straight from the pickup to the drop.  so the vehicle is doing its max speed for all but one tile of the distance
22:10:46  <fjb> sparrL: The game calculates Manhattan distance, but some vehicles can go diagonal, others can not. And the landscape has a big influence on the real traveling time.
22:10:47  <frosch123> he, if newairports isn't available earlier :p
22:10:52  <andythenorth> :P
22:11:23  <sparrL> fjb: I am aware of that, but those are factors that are a lot easier to guesstimate once the theoretical perfect case is known
22:11:27  <frosch123> i had ECS and daylength in mind
22:11:52  <fjb> sparrL: And then there are some game parameters like realistic acceleration, breakdowns and congestion on that line.
22:12:02  <glx> anyway the main problem with ECS is the interdependance between all vectors
22:12:04  <sparrL> fjb: but I am not sure I am doing the math right even in the perfect case.  no breakdowns, no decelleration, no congestion.
22:12:22  <fjb> sparrL: Your "perfect case" without that parameters is pretty useless.
22:12:46  <sparrL> "pretty useless" is more useful than not having a solution for ANY case
22:13:03  <sparrL> which is where I am now
22:14:29  <fjb> The main problem with George's ECS is that the map is empty after a few years (at least it was the last time I played with his ECS).
22:14:39  <sparrL> I am not sure that I am doing the vehicle speed (km/h) to effective speed (tiles/day) conversion correctly, or that I am accounting for other conversion factors (2.5 game days per day-in-the-payment-function?) correctly
22:14:55  <sparrL> including other factors like efficiency and congestion is much farther down the line, i have to solve these problems first
22:15:44  <fjb> sparrL: Your mathematics have the value of an untested backup. No backup is way better than en untested because you know you have no backup and do not falsely rely on something which is not working at all.
22:16:23  <sparrL> fjb: the solution to the perfect case sets a boundary on the real cases
22:16:30  <sparrL> i know i can't ever make MORE money than in the perfect case
22:18:08  <andythenorth> frosch123: ideas look good.
22:18:31  <sparrL> "Note: In this page when spoken about 'days', in fact 2.5 days are meant. So if days_in_transit = 4, then you use 4 in the calculations that follow, but actually the cargo is already 10 days in transit. "  <--  very confusing
22:18:40  * SpComb wonders if he should start doing MSVC builds himself
22:19:59  <Terkhen> SpComb: prepare to get bored with long compile times
22:20:47  <SpComb> what, you mean VS2008 running in a vbox isn't as fast as native gcc? :(
22:21:35  *** PeterT [] has joined #openttd
22:21:58  <Terkhen> actually, I doubt that VS2008 running natively on windows 7 is faster than gcc running in virtual box
22:22:22  * SpComb presses the button on PeterT that does new MSVC builds
22:22:50  <PeterT> SpComb: ERROR: command or variable not found
22:23:02  <sparrL> fjb: right now I have an almost perfect case in game, and it doesn't match up to my calculations, so I think I am doing it wrong
22:23:10  <SpComb> PeterT: have you got your .patch issues figured out?
22:23:15  <PeterT> SpComb: Seriously, I'm not at my MSVC build station
22:23:17  <Terkhen> hmmm... no matter what I try, I can't optimize TrainLocoHandler anywhere beyond 18% slower than trunk... too much cost for the unified code
22:23:21  <PeterT> And yes, I will be able to fix them
22:23:23  <sparrL> "almost perfect case" = road vehicle traveling in a straight line with no terrain, constant speed for all but the first and last tile of the trip
22:23:32  <sparrL> less than one day load and unload times
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22:24:37  <sparrL> fjb: do you think there are significant other factors in that case?
22:26:04  <SpComb> PeterT: also, will you be able to post non-rar packages? :/
22:26:10  <PeterT> No
22:26:21  <PeterT> Rar is the only thing that will fit on tt-forums
22:26:21  <SpComb> didn't you get a new site?
22:26:25  <PeterT> yes
22:26:29  <PeterT> I can do this
22:26:31  <SpComb> I'd even preferr .7z over .rar
22:26:42  <peter1138> .tar files!
22:26:42  <PeterT> post rar on ttf, then zip on user page
22:26:45  <SpComb> but a [] would be even better
22:26:59  <fjb> sparrL: That shows that your calculations don't match real life.
22:27:06  <SpComb> post zip on user page, then [url] on ttf?
22:27:19  <PeterT> zip on user page, rar on ttf
22:27:31  <PeterT> but I will only keep the latest build of each
22:27:32  <sparrL> fjb: quite right.  sadly, I have found no one who knows how to do the correct calculations
22:27:33  <SpComb> rar and link?
22:27:38  <PeterT> YES
22:27:51  <PeterT> refer to
22:28:03  *** heffer [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:28:11  <Terkhen> you should keep all PDB files, otherwise you won't be able to debug crashes in older builds
22:28:18  <PeterT> I know
22:28:21  <PeterT> I will be doing that
22:28:25  <sparrL> the wiki contradicts itself a little, but I can't get either of the formulae to work
22:28:29  <PeterT> the only thing i'm not keeping is the actual BUILD
22:29:04  <andythenorth> ummm.   I don't really like 32bpp graphics, but this could change my mind:
22:29:40  <Terkhen> I think I'm going to park the improved acceleration for rvs patch for a while... trying to optimize already optimized code is too frustrating
22:30:01  <sparrL> andythenorth: i think that level of detail is a matter of the new zoom levels, not 32bpp...  you could do similar with 8bpp
22:30:06  <SpComb> andythenorth: surprisingly old, seeing how many people only saw it now (me included...)
22:30:23  <glx> Terkhen: too bad it's extra zoom level
22:30:25  <andythenorth> Terkhen: don't forget it for ever ;)
22:30:36  <frosch123> andythenorth: i would like to see you playing in that zoomlevel :p
22:31:09  <Terkhen> andythenorth: I will keep updating it, it's just that I don't know how to fix the unified code performance problems
22:31:27  *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Administr@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:31:28  <andythenorth> frosch123: the weird thing is the 3D guys can produce much more detail than I can in about 10% of the time
22:31:43  <andythenorth> Terkhen: I know, sometimes projects need a break
22:32:18  <glx> <sparrL> andythenorth: i think that level of detail is a matter of the new zoom levels, not 32bpp...  you could do similar with 8bpp <-- not doable with the game palette
22:33:02  <Terkhen> my problem with 32bpp graphics is that finding a complete set between a hell of contradictory packages and lost tar files is too frustrating
22:33:40  <glx> the main problem is finding sets for clean releases :)
22:34:03  <andythenorth> the main problem is that it doesn't feed my nostalgia for 1995 style
22:34:12  <andythenorth> :P
22:34:17  <sparrL> glx: can i find that palette anywhere?
22:34:40  <Terkhen> that too
22:34:40  <glx>
22:35:58  <Terkhen>
22:36:25  <frosch123> <- i have also a link :p
22:36:55  <frosch123> sparrL: did you saw the opengfx faces and the 32bpp originals they were created from?
22:37:52  <sparrL> frosch123: no
22:38:17  <sparrL> glx: of course there would be quality loss, but i don't see why you couldn't get that level of detail with a smaller palette
22:38:40  <sparrL> heck, i think it would be neat to have high-resolution greyscale graphics :)  like the early newspaper graphics
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22:40:11  <andythenorth> 256 shades of grey?  Interesting.  Probably the best comment you've made today sparrL
22:40:12  <andythenorth> :P
22:40:22  <andythenorth> (seriously, that does appeal)
22:41:07  <andythenorth> sparrL: could be done with newgrf
22:41:20  <peter1138> back in the day, games that ran at 640x480 *were* high resolution
22:41:23  <sparrL> not familiar with all the graphics code, 256 might be a stretch, but 16 shades of gray still looks nice
22:41:34  <sparrL> happy medium, say 128 or 192
22:41:59  <peter1138> you can have 256 greys... easily with 32bpp
22:42:07  <sparrL> well sure
22:42:59  * andythenorth tries desaturating a screen grab....contrast would need some work
22:43:23  <andythenorth> nice idea, not convinced :)
22:43:29  <sparrL> lol
22:43:37  <sparrL> didn't really mean low-res greyscale
22:43:49  <sparrL> it kinda went with my previous "you could have high resolution high detail graphics in 8bpp"
22:44:06  <peter1138> just zoom that screenshot out to 25%
22:44:18  <peter1138> you get a feel for normal zoom 32bpp graphics
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22:47:34  * SpComb wonders how to make autosaves more frequent than one month
22:48:26  <SpComb> as the autosave is currently done in OnNewMonth
22:48:57  <peter1138> move it to OnNewDay and adjust
22:49:08  <SpComb> how do you express "x months" in days? :(
22:49:22  <George> glx: The main feature of ECS is the between-vector dependences are soft. You can producu some amount of cargoes with the simple chain, but adding cargo from other chan increases production. Looks like you missed it
22:50:54  <George> andythenorth: Have a look at PM
22:51:15  <andythenorth> I am replying now
22:51:19  <frosch123> SpComb: use 1/32 months :p
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22:52:58  <andythenorth> George: replied
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22:54:28  <SpComb> frosch123: doesn't really help, since 1/32th of a month isn't something you can trivially determine
22:56:13  <SpComb> perhaps hack it by using negative numbers for days, eh? :)
22:58:21  <frosch123> well, depends what intervals you are heading for. i.e. do you really want to save on 1st jan, 21th jan, 10th feb,... or rather on 1st and 15th independent of month length
22:58:43  <SpComb> well, it'd be nice if the monthly autosave was always on the 1st
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23:06:21  <Bluelight> Is it normal that the server is not in the list until after some time? Actually it's more like it's randomly showed and not..
23:08:26  <sparrL> what causes the rail button to un-grey while all four types of rail are still greyed out?
23:11:35  <andythenorth> good night
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23:14:04  *** George [~George@] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
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23:16:26  <Terkhen> good night
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23:18:43  <frosch123> he, does opengfx contain rivergraphics in the extra grf? :p
23:19:36  <PeterT> what does this output mean in MSYS?
23:19:37  <PeterT> G    src\newgrf_commons.h
23:19:48  <PeterT> occured when using svn up
23:19:54  <PeterT> after reverting a patchfile
23:20:04  <frosch123> then you did not properly revert it
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23:20:21  <frosch123> "G" means local modifications were successfully merged automatically
23:20:40  <frosch123> try "svn status" and "svn diff"
23:20:43  <Bluelight> Is it normal that the server is not in the list until after some time? Actually it's more like it's randomly showed and not..
23:20:58  <__ln> *shown
23:20:59  <Bluelight> Rubidium ?
23:21:06  <frosch123> no idea, the website might quite likely be cached
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23:21:55  * frosch123 wonders how static-safe river graphics really are
23:22:46  <Bluelight> I think the server list is very active..
23:24:13  <sparrL> I think that there are more versions of openttd with active servers/players than almost any other game
23:24:33  <sparrL> a very patch-ly diverse community
23:25:19  * PeterT has cargodist and IS merged
23:25:27  <PeterT> I didn't merge it, though
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23:29:18  <peter1138> frosch123, very, i'd imagine
23:34:02  <frosch123> yeah, there are no gameplay affecting properties/callbacks or random triggers
23:37:38  <SpComb> PeterT: aparently it isn't a very difficult merge
23:37:47  <PeterT> why?
23:37:51  <PeterT> You've merged it/
23:37:59  <PeterT> I got bigos to merge it for me :-D
23:39:07  <SpComb> no, but I'm about to give it a shot
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23:40:32  <SpComb> looks like a pretty clean patch
23:41:36  <PeterT> Ok
23:41:40  <SpComb> one trivial #include line failed
23:42:55  <PeterT> what rev is this for?
23:43:24  <SpComb> openttd-is2-r18696-14597.p1.diff and cargodist-r18750
23:43:27  <SpComb> compiled fine
23:43:35  <PeterT> can I get a diff of that?
23:43:40  <PeterT> please?
23:43:53  <SpComb> merge it yourself
23:44:05  <SpComb> you have to add one #include to src/economy_func.cpp yourself
23:44:27  <PeterT> what #include file, that's the problem?
23:44:34  <SpComb> make that src/economy.cpp
23:44:41  <SpComb> PeterT: look at the output from patch
23:44:52  <SpComb> i.e. `vim -p src/economy.cpp*`
23:45:05  <SpComb> there's a .rej file with the hunks that failed, you can then merge them into the .cpp yourself
23:45:19  <PeterT> SpComb: Which did you apply first?
23:45:28  <SpComb> I applied it to a cargodist git checkout
23:45:34  <PeterT> oh
23:45:37  <PeterT> I don't have that
23:45:48  <PeterT> I only have cargodist patchfile, is that ok?
23:46:09  <fonsinchen> Rubidium: r18763, the splitting of time_counter - did the previous situation trigger the v->time_counter != 0 assertion in LoadUnloadVehicle in economy.cpp?
23:46:52  <PeterT> SpComb: I can't do that, I don't have a working git
23:47:03  <PeterT> I'll try on Linux, tommorow
23:47:28  <SpComb> PeterT: it should work just the same if you apply the cargodist patch
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23:48:16  <PeterT> SpComb: But, against what revision?
23:48:34  <PeterT> r18750 (cargodist's patch revision) or IS2's patch revision?
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23:51:03  <SpComb> r18750
23:51:31  <SpComb> PeterT: you can just fiddle around and see what works, merging patches isn't such a big deal if they're well-written and don't step on eachothers toes too much
23:52:28  <SpComb> how do you open the induvidual settings GUI?
23:53:24  <SpComb> doesn't exist anymore?
23:56:05  <SpComb> oh right, got left out

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