Log for #openttd on 23rd January 2010:
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00:01:15  <fjb> Replace the graphics card.
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00:20:00  <SpComb^> silly windows and its "FLEST" timezone
00:20:22  <SpComb^> timezones != political daylight-saving-time regions
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00:26:53  <SmatZ> so I left pub today, and there was bus in flames :-p
00:28:19  <Eddi|zuHause> i almost had something like that a month ago...
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00:28:52  <Eddi|zuHause> it smelled like burned rubber, and when the bus stopped, there was smoke coming from one of the wheels
00:29:10  <SmatZ> :-)
00:29:26  <SmatZ> people said someone threw molotov cocktail in the bus
00:29:34  <SmatZ> I don't know, I wasn't there
00:29:39  <SmatZ> but I had to go by foot :-x
00:30:24  <SmatZ> I hope it's not true... people are nice here :(
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00:35:39  <Eddi|zuHause2> hm, the disconnect script fails when i run konversation from ssh...
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00:41:19  <Bluelight> Good night!
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00:43:56  <SpComb^> <-- there, fancy .sh script
00:45:25  <SpComb^> you run it using something like: build.bat -C -r 18870 -p patches/cargodist-minipack-r18870.patch trunk-r18870 cargodist-minipack PATCH_OPTS=-p1
00:45:54  <Eddi|zuHause> doesn't look very useful to me...
00:45:57  <SpComb^> and the output might be something like:
00:47:04  <SpComb^> well, it saves you the trouble of preparing your svn dir for a patch, applying it, and then booting up Visual Studio, clicking around, building the bundle from the MSYS command line, and then gathering up the .zip, .pdb and .patch
00:47:52  <SpComb^> here, you just need some kind of svn working copy to use, the path to the .patch file, the svn rev to use, and... well... you get a .zip, .patch, .pdb and .log
00:48:05  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, but i wouldn't do any of that anyway
00:48:12  <SpComb^> well, never mind that :)
00:48:43  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... this computer is really really loud...
00:48:53  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm considering just sending it back...
00:49:24  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't have use for such a noisy device
00:49:40  <SpComb^> Eddi|zuHause: warranty so you can't mod it quieter yourself?
00:50:11  <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb^: i'd rather save that money...
00:50:32  <Eddi|zuHause> and i'm not comfortable with modding
00:50:53  <Eddi|zuHause> installing hard drives is dangerous enough...
00:51:09  <SpComb^> well, replace GFX card, or install aftermarket GFX cooler
00:51:24  <SpComb^> both of them go some way towards killing your warranty, though
00:53:06  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, i can't stand that noise...
00:53:19  <Eddi|zuHause> it's loud even when music is playing...
00:53:44  <Eddi|zuHause> good night anyway...
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01:32:04  <_Ben_> Hi
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01:32:49  <_Ben_> Anybody around who knows the reason why in the 'openttdw' folder there appears to be multiple versions of the same sprites?
01:33:16  <_Ben_> There appears to be a duplicate sprite in the originals on trg1r as well. 991 and 999.  Bit puzzled
01:34:33  <_Ben_> er sorry, I'm refering to the embankment/foundation sprites specifically
01:37:01  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: glx * r18892 /trunk/src/sound/win32_s.cpp: -Fix: in some rare case a deadlock could happen when stopping sound driver (windows)
01:40:52  <Ammler> _Ben_: maybe one for houses, the other for rail or such?
01:42:25  <_Ben_> there visually identical I beleive, so is there some need for the game to call on different sprites for different reasons regardless of there visual simiarities?
01:42:29  <Ammler>,999 <-- both are there in all known sets...
01:44:20  <_Ben_> yeah, in the 'openttdw' set the've all been made, but I'm confused as to why there are so many.  Theres 87 sprites to make in the other folder, probably only around 30 unique sprites the file is way bigger
01:46:18  <Ammler> well, make one ugly red and see if you have those on the map...
01:47:56  <_Ben_> yeah, might come down to that
01:48:26  <Yexo> seeing those sprites I think one of them is for tiles with only the south corner raised and one is for tiles with both the south and the north corner raised
01:48:30  <_Ben_> also, are the sprites off the original trg1r file used anymore?  I've replaced them but can't find them in game
01:48:47  <Yexo> not if you use opengfx
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01:50:07  <Ammler> (easiest is to symlink ogfx1_base with trg1r
01:50:18  <_Ben_> Yexo, those sprites are identical in everything I can see, metadata also
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01:50:52  <_Ben_> I'm not running opengfx in the game I'm testing sprites in, but can't see the foundation sprites from trg1r
01:51:36  <_Ben_> symlinking is another issue I'm having.  I'm running windows XP.  I can make a simlink equivelent, but when I make a .tar it is double the nessesery size
01:51:55  <_Ben_> zip'in the tar doesn't notice this replication either
01:52:50  <Ammler> the script above would make you a newgrf :-)
01:53:43  <Ammler> you can use ":" for ranges
01:56:40  <_Ben_> how do I view sprites in the other set 'openttdw'?
01:56:56  <Ammler> that is already a newgrf
01:57:11  <Yexo> you can decode it with grfcoded
01:57:12  <Ammler> (not viewable with my script)
01:57:16  <Yexo> or grf2html
01:58:05  <Ammler> that grf is another reason you should make a newgrf for your sprites, as it can change
01:58:43  <_Ben_> hmm, your loosing me.  That page is pretty handy for transfering metadata to a bat file for pngcodec
01:58:57  <Yexo> both sprite 991 and 999 are ment to make a sloped tile look flat with foundations
01:59:06  <Yexo> base number is 989 and then add the slope to that
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01:59:27  <Yexo> only south corner raised = 2 (so sprite 991)
01:59:55  <Yexo> both south and north corners raised = 10 (so sprite 999)
02:00:57  <Ammler> _Ben_: If there is interest, I could modify/update that script
02:01:13  <Ammler> We used it for opengfx development
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02:02:06  <_Ben_> um, I've jumped into something I do not know enough about.  I thourhgt sprites 989 and below where the face sprites.  I'm awair of what 991 and 999 are used for, just not why there are 2...unless there used together?
02:03:04  <Yexo> sprites 990:1003 are used as foundations
02:03:08  <_Ben_> Ammler, it's really helpful if I can quickly find the alignment values for sprites...Being able to see all sprites in any of the folder/files would be great
02:03:27  <Yexo> if something needs a flat tile but isn't build on a flat tile, then a foundation sprite is drawn under it
02:03:31  <_Ben_> Yexo, yep, I get that.  I understand the use of the tiles as well
02:04:17  <_Ben_> but they are 2 of the same sprite, which is a singular example of the sprite repetition seen in the openttdw folder for sprites 843-884
02:04:20  <Yexo> well there are 2 because openttd just uses base+slope value, so internally it doesn't know these 2 sprites are the same
02:04:22  <Ammler>,679:770,774,1251:1274,1291:1300,1309:1312,2010,2429:2436,2593:2600,2724:2726,3090:3091,3668,4077:4089,4791:4792&h=555:556&t=329:340,885:901,1058:1065,1178:1193 <-- example to generate GUI newgrf
02:04:49  <Ammler> (you can combine different base files)
02:04:59  <Yexo> Ammler: would just decoding opengfx give exactly the same information?
02:05:25  <Ammler> when I update it, yes :-)
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02:06:52  <Yexo> _Ben_: all sprites between 843 and 884 should be different (maybe only slighly different, but different)
02:07:09  <Yexo> if they're equal, complain to opengfx that they should add more variation to the faces :p
02:07:38  <Ammler> complain to yourself then :-P
02:07:39  <Yexo> they'll like it much better if you add better sprites to that complained though
02:08:01  <Ammler> Yexo: faces are iirc from him
02:08:38  <_Ben_> I'm looking at the originals in trg1r and the 2 are identical.  I'm then looking at the 32bpp full zoom sprites for openttdw and there are multiple that are the same
02:09:04  <Ammler> openttdw doesn't have faces
02:09:58  <Ammler> hmm
02:10:09  <_Ben_> no...I'm not talking about faces...I know about the faces, I'm ben_robbins_ on the forum
02:10:25  <Yexo> I just figured that out :)
02:10:32  <Ammler> yeah :-D
02:11:15  <SpComb^> hmm, 32-bit build .zip bundle fits on TT-Forums, 64-bit build .zip bundle doesn't
02:12:02  <SpComb^> (assuming this 3990KB that explorer shows is indeed under 4MiB)
02:12:21  <SpComb^> orudge: you should consider raising the limit for attachment sizes some day, perhaps people would stop posting .rar's
02:14:57  <_Ben_> Yexo, I don't have the file at hand to look at the opengfx or original-modified sprites which allow the additional embankment combo's, but if I look at the 32bpp fullzoom one there are some completely identical files in there.  I havnt' noticed a bug in game from this..maybe I need to look closure though
02:15:25  <Ammler> SpComb^: maybe it counts bytes
02:15:53  <Yexo> _Ben_: if you're still talking about sprites 991 and 999, it's completely valid for them to be exactly the same
02:17:31  <_Ben_> ok, so thats a seperate 'issue' to the other set?  Still leaves me wondering why there are 2 of the same, care to ellaborate?
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02:19:50  <_Ben_> Ammler: is it possible to view files 888, 892 and 884 from the original sprite set on that script/site?
02:20:09  * SpComb^ waits while chkdisk deletes his build dir
02:20:30  <glx> SpComb^: you can try 7z instead zip ;)
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02:26:18  * SpComb^ grows tired of constantly having to clean out random OpenTTD build dirs because of his vbox image swallowing up his /home/ partition's free space
02:27:30  <Ammler> _Ben_: you mean from openttdw.grf?
02:28:05  <_Ben_> yeah, I'm not clear on the rearranging of them if there has been one.  I havn't followed that.  I'm just looking at the original sprites and OTTD's add-on's
02:28:08  <Ammler> as that is a newgrf, it didn't make sense for me to make a newgrf generator :-)
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02:28:47  <Ammler> the script works only for the real base sets
02:28:51  <_Ben_> Ammler: Is that just for grf's?
02:28:53  <_Ben_> ah ok
02:29:02  <Ammler> trg?r.grf
02:29:36  <Ammler> openttdw.grf sprites aren't constant, you know?
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02:29:46  <_Ben_> ah ok, I didn't realise that was a newgrf.  I just can an extracted tar here
02:29:52  <_Ben_> Ammler: as in the sprite numbers change?
02:29:56  <Ammler> yes
02:30:16  <_Ben_> on what time frame, by who?  (in game/dev's/etc?)
02:30:19  <Ammler> that is why you should at least for that make your own newgrf :-)
02:30:32  <_Ben_> I was awaire they changed, but know little more than that on it
02:31:12  <Ammler> well, I don't know how openttdw.grf changes, but it can
02:31:50  <Ammler> i.e. it would need a simple pseudo sprite change in the requirement checking
02:32:21  <Ammler> which is on the head of the grf and so would change every sprite
02:32:28  <SpComb^> hrmph, the vm does the same LogonUI.exe trick after a reboot + chkdisk
02:32:44  <SpComb^> somehow I suspect that VirtualBox's host-system-out-of-disk-space handler isn't as good as it appears to be
02:33:07  <_Ben_> hmm well all I'm trying to do now is tweak/replace some 32bpp FZ sprites and I wish to test them.  But I'm asking these questions becuase I'm just remaking them in relation to the 32bpp FZ sprites which were done before and appear on yoru script/search.  If I make them exactly like that then many will be clones of each other.  I don't want to do this and find they are different, and that was a fault with the first FZ set.
02:33:46  <Ammler> if you want, I can "generate" such a newgrf for you as example...
02:34:00  <_Ben_> I know absoultly nothing about making a newgrf, if you could help that would be great
02:34:12  <Ammler> I would just use a empty.pcx
02:34:29  <_Ben_> I really need to sleep now though, gotta be up in a few hours.  I'll takle this one later on
02:34:34  <Ammler> or opengfx sprites, dunno whats better?
02:35:15  <Ammler> oh majonaise, I should too
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02:35:48  <_Ben_> thanks for the help Ammler and Yexo
02:35:49  <_Ben_> night
02:36:46  <Ammler> pm me a tar and I could modify it so it would work independent from base set...
02:37:09  <_Ben_> actually before I go, Ammler: where is that search script looking?  For the faces there are the 8bpp varients, but not the 32bpp, where as for the embankments it has both
02:37:36  <Ammler> well, I once loaded the 32bpp mega pack
02:38:02  <_Ben_> Ammler: a 32bpp fullzoom tar of any sprites? in the sprites/trg1r folder (inside the tar)?
02:38:03  <Ammler> that was as around 8 months ago
02:38:27  <_Ben_> strange, I made the first set of faces 2 years ago
02:38:31  <Ammler> possible yes
02:39:14  <Ammler> I just took the pack, dunno, if your faces were there
02:40:14  <Ammler> just looked for some 32bpp graphcis, we were able to use for opengfx
02:40:54  <_Ben_> I've sent you a file, it's sprites from trg1r.  I'm a little puzzled on exactly what needs doing, but I really should go...hope that file's ok
02:41:37  <Ammler> well, I won't do it now either
02:41:47  <Ammler> good night from my side too :-)
02:41:49  <_Ben_> heh, sure, when ever you wish
02:41:50  <_Ben_> night
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03:00:09  <luckz> does anybody feel like explaining to me how to build a reasonably effective two-way PBS four lane rail track? I'm really confused in how far I should minimise or maximise a) signals b) lane-switching crossings
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03:04:35  <SpComb^> luckz: fast lanes on the inside, slow lanes on the outside, with sideline merges
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03:19:06  <luckz> aaaaaaaaaand, are there any vehicle sets that border on being balanced? dbset for example allows me to choose between pretty okay trains for 50k and slightly better ones for 500k, and one day the 50k ones disappear and thus anybody who didn't stock up on like 300 cheap train is sure at quite a disadvantage :P
03:21:01  <luckz> SpComb^: I more meant what kind of signalling pattern to use (with PBS, I guess?) to maximise throughput and efficiency if I'm just going from A to B and back or from A to B and then C, without anything like different main or side lines.
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08:04:25  <Terkhen> good morning
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08:39:32  <andythenorth> morning
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11:04:26  <TrueBrain> hi all; we have been working on a new way to collect stats for downloads and MP usage. Our current draft: . Any of you any additions / suggestions?
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11:13:48  <Alberth> TrueBrain: size of the data?
11:14:11  <TrueBrain> size of what data?
11:14:18  <roboboy> gnight
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11:16:24  <Alberth> eg of a binary such as 0.7.0    I know it is static information, but it may be useful to store rather than having it to  query the file system.
11:16:40  <TrueBrain> why is it important to know the size of such downloads, for statistics?
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11:16:57  <TrueBrain> personally, I want to know how often they were downloaded .. but does the size matter? (truly wondering here)
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11:17:14  <Xaroth> so you can geusstimate the amount of data traffic?
11:17:25  <TrueBrain> we only want to know that for mirrors, which is tracked
11:17:43  <peter1138> My traffic looks sane now :D
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11:18:02  <peter1138> Just 1.33 mbit/s
11:18:45  <SpComb^> TrueBrain: 'tis called rrd
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11:19:16  <Alberth> #downloads * #size = #MB downloaded afaik.  Download count in itself doesn't say much what the largest piece of network traffic causes.
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11:19:42  <SpComb^> TrueBrain: you don't store daily/monthly stats in an SQL RDBMS
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11:20:04  <Alberth> not sure why you want hourly collections
11:20:14  <TrueBrain> Alberth: remember we don't care here how much network traffic there is; we want to know how often something is downloaded, like now provides
11:20:27  <peter1138> rrd is difficutlt to alter
11:20:34  <G> hey, nice job on 1.0.0-b3!
11:20:40  <G> (getting it out that is)
11:20:41  <TrueBrain> rrd is a stupid suggestion for how we want to use it :)
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11:21:15  <G> I got a feeling that is broken though :)
11:21:35  <TrueBrain> Alberth: in more detail, we want to show how many downloads there are in the middle of the night, for example
11:21:47  <peter1138> broken how?
11:22:04  <G> peter1138: django rendering exception
11:22:15  <peter1138> works here
11:22:16  <SpComb^> hmm, you're getting pretty close to a million downloads in those stats
11:22:16  <TrueBrain> G: that was for 5 seconds the case :p
11:22:24  <Alberth> ok, but the next time we run into trouble, we are going to guess what download causes it?
11:22:38  <TrueBrain> Alberth: we never had that issue, did we?
11:22:41  <Rubidium> TrueBrain: it still doesn't work
11:22:47  <Rubidium> (the website that is)
11:22:48  <TrueBrain> now it does ;)
11:22:49  <SpComb^> and haha @ the cargodest downloads
11:22:51  <G> TrueBrain: now I just get Bad Gateway :)
11:22:53  <TrueBrain> lighttpd had to be rolled over again :)
11:22:59  <G> haha
11:23:02  <G> now it works... :)
11:23:13  <TrueBrain> I had to deploy a newer version of the website :)
11:23:18  <peter1138> TrueBrain, when are we writing our own website? ;)
11:23:19  <peter1138> errr
11:23:21  <peter1138> TrueBrain, when are we writing our own webserver? ;)
11:23:30  <TrueBrain> peter1138: I already did
11:23:36  <TrueBrain> runs a completely custom httpd
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11:24:16  <TrueBrain> Alberth: also, by the amount of downloads we can guess the bandwidth used ;) It is not that I don't want to add a bandwidth field there, I was just wondering if it would be used :)
11:25:29  <TrueBrain> (and the fact we don't have the bandwidth currently in the stats, so I can't harvest it :p)
11:25:51  <Rubidium> bandwidth in the current download stats can 'easily' be added :)
11:26:09  <TrueBrain> we can take the average binary size and recalculate the current values, yes
11:26:10  <Rubidium> just multiply #files * #size-of-file
11:26:28  <Rubidium> after all, the database contains the information on a per-file basis IIRC
11:26:31  <TrueBrain> of many nightlies we no longer have the file size :)
11:26:51  <Alberth> that was my suggestion :)
11:27:09  <Rubidium> hmm, true... then guess those :)
11:27:17  <TrueBrain> k
11:27:47  <TrueBrain> Alberth: I am just trying to figure out the usage of the suggestion :) Our current stats tables running over the 150 MB .. I try to minimize that ;)
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11:28:32  <TrueBrain> k, bandwidth added to all fields :)
11:28:36  <TrueBrain> anything else?
11:28:47  <Rubidium> lunch!
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11:28:50  <SpComb^> TrueBrain: RRD would be a lot less than 150MB :(
11:28:52  <TrueBrain> enjoy
11:29:04  <TrueBrain> SpComb^: and I say it again: with rrd you can't do what we want to do
11:29:06  <TrueBrain> so it is not an option
11:29:34  <Rubidium> SpComb^: how would rdd store less information and still keep the information?
11:29:41  <TrueBrain> (and our rrd dir of our ISP goes WAY passed 150MB ...)
11:29:45  <SpComb^> Rubidium: average out the older info
11:29:51  <SpComb^> plus it's fixed-size
11:29:51  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... anyone ever tried exporting bookmarks from one konqueror to another?
11:30:04  <Eddi|zuHause> it Doesn't Work (tm)
11:30:18  <Rubidium> SpComb^: so you lose 'resolution' in your stats...
11:30:31  <peter1138> rrd is perfect for bandwidth graphics
11:30:34  <peter1138> -ic
11:30:34  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: I had that problem with konqueror itself already :p
11:31:04  <TrueBrain> it is only useful if you want to show something linear in time, bandwidth, uptime, ..
11:31:07  <Eddi|zuHause> well, the exporting works fine, just the importing...
11:31:11  <TrueBrain> not if you want hourly graphics and stuff
11:31:18  * peter1138 wonders if he just overused 'why'
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11:33:03  <TrueBrain> also, SpComb^ , it would mean we have to create a new rrd for each version, for each platform, ... I think we go way passed the 150 MB :p
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11:35:23  <Xaroth> TrueBrain: downtime is over again :P
11:35:37  <TrueBrain> that was fast
11:35:46  <Xaroth> weekend dt always fast
11:35:51  <TrueBrain> good
11:35:58  <TrueBrain> still, I have to go shopping first to get a lunch in my house ...
11:36:01  <TrueBrain> and dinner, for that matter
11:36:44  <Xaroth> same here, but waiting for my dad to crawl from under his rock again
11:36:45  <peter1138> and i still need ipv6 images for 7200VXR :s
11:37:12  * TrueBrain gives peter1138 his images
11:37:53  <peter1138> <obvious joke/>
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11:49:32  <lennard> TrueBrain: just make sure to keep all logs for post-processing :P
11:50:06  <SpComb^> RRD isn't perfect for everything, but some things are very suitable - such as masterserver stats
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11:51:22  <SpComb^> you can keep per-five-minute-stats for a couple days, per-hour stats for a month or two, per-day stats for a year or two
11:51:26  <SpComb^> etc.
11:52:15  <Rubidium> but per day stats means you can't make a 'per hour' graph over the whole period
11:52:41  <Rubidium> see e.g.
11:52:48  <Rubidium> page 3
11:53:08  <SpComb^> well, then you can store per-hour stats for a year or two
11:55:16  <SpComb^> but myes, if you want complex analysis them storing each item separately and aggregating them at analysis time has some benefits... but it's also a lot more data
11:56:05  <Rubidium> that's why we want to redo the storage a bit so the only store what's needed for the purposes we want
11:56:24  <Rubidium> should reduce the download stats database by a factor 10 to 20
11:56:49  <SpComb^> then you're heading towards what RRD does
11:56:58  <Rubidium> which is, for 18 months, 1 million downloads, a whopping 7 MB :)
11:57:54  <SpComb^> five years of hourly RRD data at 32-bit res is a whooping ~170KB
11:57:55  <Rubidium> which is in all fairness for download stats per file per hour a reasonable amount of space I'd say
11:58:03  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm amazed at what a simple "1" in the version number does...
11:59:16  <Rubidium> yeah, kinda spikes doesn't it?
11:59:43  <Rubidium> way more than 0.7.0 ever did
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12:00:02  <SpComb^> but point being, RRD is useable for more than just MRTG and bandwidth stats that nobody ever looks at :P
12:00:13  <SpComb^> plus rrd_tool's graph output is relatively nice and flexible
12:00:34  <SpComb^> (smokeping's graphs are from it, believe it or not)
12:04:03  <Rubidium> SpComb^: but... now make those graphs for *each* binary of OpenTTD (that's basically what we store)
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12:04:38  <peter1138> including nightlies :D
12:04:39  <SpComb^> you could store daily data for each binary, and then hourly data in aggregate for all of them
12:04:58  <SpComb^> but yes, once you start having O(N) RRD's it does get a little unweidly
12:04:58  <Rubidium> that'd be 1000 versions (yes nightlies are included) and about 10 targets
12:05:14  <Rubidium> so 170 KiB * 1000 * 10 / 5 * 1.5
12:05:26  <Rubidium> @calc 170 * 1000 * 10 / 5 * 1.5 / 1024
12:05:26  <DorpsGek> Rubidium: 498.046875
12:05:30  <SpComb^> you could store nightlies as just one set of data...
12:05:34  <Rubidium> 500 MiB, we have 7 :)
12:06:07  <SpComb^> (it's also a question of how much data about something you really need)
12:06:59  <TrueBrain> what a useless discussion ...
12:07:44  <SpComb^> just trying to say that RRD's aren't useless, they do a very good job of aggregating data if you know what you want to aggregate beforehand
12:07:46  <Alberth> SpComb^: that is already decided. Please show us you can do better with the same data set
12:08:22  <SpComb^> no need
12:08:30  <Alberth> SpComb^: nobody says RRD is useless, it is just not right in this case
12:08:32  <TrueBrain> SpComb^: nobody said rrds (not rrd's) are useless; just useless for the intention we have with our data
12:08:49  <TrueBrain> hihi @ Alberth  :)
12:08:59  <TrueBrain> every tool for its own domain
12:10:14  <TrueBrain> oeh, lennard  is here, good, I have another question for him :)
12:11:09  <orudge> woo, 7 OS/2 downloads this week already
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12:11:12  <orudge> that's, like, one a day
12:11:20  <TrueBrain> orudge: does OS/2 still work?!
12:11:25  <orudge> my OS/2 VM still seems to work on VMWare on my Mac, which is good
12:11:33  <orudge> TrueBrain: I need to fix trunk
12:11:34  <orudge> or, well
12:11:44  <orudge> OS/2 knows nothing about IPv6, at all
12:11:49  <orudge> even the headers don't know of it
12:11:53  <orudge> which causes problems trying to build OpenTTD :)
12:12:00  <orudge> if one disables networking, it's all fine
12:12:05  <TrueBrain> time to make an #ifdef IPV6_SUPPORT :p
12:12:05  <orudge> or indeed, hacks out all the IPv6 stuff
12:12:10  <orudge> IPv4 is fine, of course
12:12:35  <orudge> but anyway, I have a hack that sorts it all out, but a hack isn't really good enough
12:12:38  <orudge> so I shall look at it again
12:13:44  <TrueBrain> still .. I am amazed OS/2 is still there :p
12:13:47  <TrueBrain> btw, back in UK?
12:13:49  <orudge> heh
12:13:50  <orudge> yes, indeed
12:13:51  <orudge> since yesterday
12:14:00  <TrueBrain> sucky weather, aint it ;)
12:14:00  <Rubidium> orudge: take a look at the mingw hack in core/os_abstraction.h
12:14:01  <orudge> until probably April
12:14:08  <peter1138> hmm, so how do i do nat with ipv6... ;)
12:14:10  <orudge> TrueBrain: actually, the sun came out
12:14:16  <orudge> but yes, I came back yesterday and it was pouring with rain
12:14:20  <orudge> that, and they left my bags in London
12:14:24  <orudge> a good welcome home ;)
12:14:31  <TrueBrain> :s
12:14:56  <Rubidium> peter1138: you don't
12:14:57  <lennard> peter1138: you don't
12:15:48  <TrueBrain> the beauty of IPv6 :)
12:16:29  <peter1138> i know that you don't
12:16:53  <peter1138> but i need to
12:17:08  <lennard> I doubt that
12:18:04  <peter1138> [PCI-DSS] 1.3.8 Implement IP masquerading to prevent internal addresses from being translated and revealed on the Internet, using RFC 1918 address space. Use network address translation (NAT) technologies--for example, port address translation (PAT).
12:18:09  <peter1138> 1.3.8 For the sample of firewall and router components, verify that NAT or other technology using RFC 1918 address space is used to restrict broadcast of IP addresses from the internal network to the Internet (IP masquerading).
12:18:25  <peter1138> (yes, PCI-DSS is fucking stupid)
12:18:34  <lennard> ugh, PCI-DSS is retarded?
12:18:42  <lennard> I do, however, see your problem :)
12:19:20  <lennard> cant you just argue 'I don't use RFC1918 space' though?
12:19:36  <lennard> and 'I don't use internal addresses'
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12:20:07  <lennard> what do you need PCI-DSS for anyway? :)
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12:22:02  <peter1138> well no, using real-world addresses wouldn't meet the requirements
12:24:29  <lennard> but rfc1918 only has v4 addresses, and ipv6 only has global addresses
12:24:40  <lennard> you don't have to route them in order for them to be global :P
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12:29:13  <Rubidium> peter1138: that's simple then, IPv6 is forbidden by PCI-DSS
12:33:40  <peter1138> probably :)
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12:50:23  <Eddi|zuHause> cool someone needed backups of files from 2003, and i had them! ;)
12:51:03  <peter1138> how rare
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13:17:44  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r18893 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Codechange: Replace grf_load_* with methods of ByteReader.
13:19:48  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: truebrain * r18894 /extra/website/bananas/ (4 files in 2 dirs): [Website] -Add: support for OBM (Base Music Sets)
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13:39:41  <Nite_Owl> Hello all
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13:39:52  <Eddi|zuHause> so is it now bananamas? :p
13:40:17  <Rubidium> more brananas
13:40:36  <Eddi|zuHause> r?
13:40:52  <Rubidium> base replacements
13:42:32  <fonsinchen> bahamas
13:43:08  <Nite_Owl> Bananarama
13:43:12  <fonsinchen> with h := nana
13:44:08  <Nite_Owl> I am probably the only one here who remembers Bananarama
13:47:26  <Eddi|zuHause> i only know the name...
13:47:56  <Eddi|zuHause> fonsinchen: that would yield "bahmas"
13:48:22  <Nite_Owl> late 70's early 80's New Wave
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13:49:09  <Nite_Owl> 'I Like Candy' was a big hit for them
13:49:57  <fonsinchen> so h = NAN
13:50:03  <fonsinchen> this is better anyway
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13:58:22  <Nite_Owl> My bad 'I Want Candy' was by a band called Bow Wow Wow
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14:24:03  <orudge> How curious, nginx up 384% in 2009, lighttpd down 72% according to
14:24:26  * orudge never used nginx, but perhaps because it looked rather unfinished when he first came across it
14:24:46  * lennard uses it
14:25:05  * orudge uses lighttpd
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14:25:09  * Xaroth apache
14:25:13  <ashb>
14:25:17  <Xaroth> though I don't mind using lighttpd now that I know how it works :P
14:25:21  * lennard had lighttpd be nice and segfaulty
14:25:24  <ashb> for the original source :)
14:26:23  <ashb> orudge: where did they get those numbers
14:26:29  <orudge> Netcraft
14:26:32  <orudge> according to the bit at the bottom
14:26:34  <Rubidium> well, lighty devs are also nice and ignorant about memory leaks killing lighty
14:26:53  <orudge> well, I figured you'd had some experience of both, hence partially me posting that link in this channel ;)
14:26:57  <ashb> oh the sumary pageso nly have month-on-month numbers
14:27:03  <ashb> i guess they must subscribe
14:27:13  * ashb has experience of the netcraft survey
14:27:18  <ashb> i used to run the horrible thing
14:27:24  <ashb> worst. code. ever.
14:29:47  * orudge gets some lunch
14:31:51  <Rubidium> orudge: I suggest to not use lighttpd if you want it to 'proxy' to something
14:32:05  <ashb> i've never had any problems with it
14:32:32  <ashb> doing just that
14:33:51  <peter1138> we have ;p
14:34:07  <ashb> how did it manifest itself - memory leaks?
14:34:23  <ashb> (so i can keep an eye out to see if it happens)
14:34:53  <Eddi|zuHause> the memory usage grows and grows until the oom-killer comes along
14:35:13  <ashb> k never had anything approaching that. good to know tho.
14:35:40  <Eddi|zuHause> if oom-killer is not set up, it just makes the system completely unresponsive
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14:42:08  <TrueBrain> lennard had lighttpd be nice and segfaulty <- we had the exact same problems :) Running nginx, with lighttpd and apache2 as back-end (proxied)
14:42:12  <Rubidium> ashb:
14:42:21  <ashb> Rubidium: thanks
14:42:52  <Rubidium> and that's where the developer basically says: don't use lighty
14:44:23  <ashb> oh wow. thats as bad as nginx used to be (only docs in russian etc)
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14:46:54  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: truebrain * r18895 /extra/website/bananas/ [Website] -Fix: OpenTTD runs the MD5 XOR twice if the same filename is twice in the list; now BaNaNaS does too
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14:54:19  <[Jako]> where i can find files for running server?
14:54:30  <Xaroth> the wikik
14:54:34  <lennard> TrueBrain: oh this lighty was just a static content service thingyh
14:54:35  <Xaroth> s/wikik/wiki/
14:54:46  <KenjiE20> witwiki?
14:54:46  <TrueBrain> lennard: well, it leaks anyway ;)
14:55:06  <TrueBrain> [Jako]: download the client; it includes the server code
14:55:13  <TrueBrain> (both dedicated as non-dedicated)
14:55:19  <ashb> not for just static content it does.
14:55:20  <[Jako]> i prefer dedicated ;)
14:55:22  <[Jako]> found it
14:55:24  <ashb> please dont spread incorrect FUD
14:55:33  <ashb> *doesn't
14:56:00  <Xaroth> ashb: what incorrect FUD?
14:56:10  <ashb> that it leaks anyway
14:56:17  <Xaroth> what's incorrect about that?
14:56:23  <ashb> (it = lighttpd)
14:56:30  <lennard> I think that might actually be FUD
14:56:31  <glx> <TrueBrain> (both dedicated as non-dedicated) <-- but IIRC our builds require X even for dedicated
14:56:38  <TrueBrain> it does, sorry, but it really does; several test-cases, several ways of doing
14:56:41  <Eddi|zuHause> it leaked for our use case... whether you like it or not
14:56:53  <ashb> oh yes i'm not arguing that
14:56:53  <lennard> I've run lighty for months, and while it kept segfaulting childs under load, I don't remember it ever leaking
14:57:12  <ashb> i'm arguing that it leaks if you just do static files and no cgi or proxy
14:57:14  <TrueBrain> we had to switch to 1.5 to avoid certain type of memory leaks
14:57:18  <TrueBrain> while 1.5 is not really suported
14:58:32  <TrueBrain> peter1138: ping
14:58:46  <Xaroth> destination host unreachable.
14:58:47  <peter1138> pong
14:58:58  <TrueBrain> I can't get an ssh to your mirror :(
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14:59:22  <TrueBrain> connection gets refused :(
15:00:39  <peter1138> back
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15:01:07  <TrueBrain> whiiee :)
15:01:09  <TrueBrain> syncing new files
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15:01:56  <TrueBrain> @openttd commit
15:01:56  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: Commit by truebrain :: r18895 extra/website/bananas/ (2010-01-23 14:46:42 UTC)
15:01:57  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: [Website] -Fix: OpenTTD runs the MD5 XOR twice if the same filename is twice in the list; now BaNaNaS does too
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15:10:20  <Hirundo> Does MinGW/MSYS need other versions of libpng/zlib etc, or do the libs I use with MSVC suffice?
15:11:26  <Eddi|zuHause> try it?
15:15:58  <Hirundo> I prefer to check whether the wheel has already been invented before re-inventing it, although I may have to resort to the latter in this case
15:17:17  <ashb> istr that msvc implibs are different format to gcc's one
15:17:30  <ashb> but if they are dlls, i think gcc can use them directly without an implib
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15:24:14  <Eddi|zuHause> Hirundo: if you're afraid of inventing the wheel, why not stick exactly to the instructions?
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15:25:36  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: because it is so much more fun to try some other things first and then ask us why it doesn't work
15:27:40  <TrueBrain> stupid Mass Effect 2, didn't save my game :(
15:28:53  * Eoin has ME2 :D
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15:30:45  <TrueBrain> I like how it integrates your story from ME1 :)
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15:32:34  <[Jako]> whoa, got it up from command shell
15:32:51  <[Jako]> thx for the opensfx and gfx packs :)
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15:36:34  <[Jako]> don't know why it needs gfx pack to run it in dedicated mode (-D) but it's not a big problem
15:37:40  <Eddi|zuHause> in the gfx pack there are sprites which contain non-displayable data, for example the original world generator has some heightmaps in there
15:37:41  <Ammler> e.g. it needs the map generation sprites
15:38:11  <Rubidium> because dedicated mode is exactly the same as non-dedicated mode with only a different video driver; the rest is still the same, i.e. the binary can make screenshots and the like
15:38:50  <Ammler> I thought, that isn't possible anymore?
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15:39:14  <Rubidium> Ammler: override the 'default' blitter
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15:41:04  <rait> AI crash in beta3, where should i report?
15:41:46  <Eddi|zuHause> rait: the forum, "NoAI Discussion"
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15:42:09  <rait> ok
15:42:10  <Eddi|zuHause> rait: specifically in the thread mentioned in the AI description
15:42:38  <Eddi|zuHause> rait: unless the crash says "you have no AI installed"
15:42:50  <rait> that's not the case
15:43:16  <planetmaker> yup, then every AI has its own thread which the authors monitor usually
15:44:02  <rait> i need to register to post?
15:46:33  <planetmaker> at tt-forums? Yes.
15:46:44  <planetmaker> As usual...
15:46:59  <planetmaker> is there anywhere a place where you can give feedback w/o registration?
15:47:32  <Eddi|zuHause> i have seen a forum where unregistered people could post, a long time ago
15:47:59  <Rubidium> planetmaker: irc?
15:48:36  <planetmaker> well, yes. I meant (implicitly) forums
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15:53:21  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r18896 /trunk/src/genworld_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#3558]: pressing cancel for the query windows of the world generation window caused the default to be set instead of no changes to the value
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16:10:09  <Eddi|zuHause> hm, is there a programatical interface that can tell a monitor to switch inputs?
16:12:02  <peter1138> not really
16:12:32  <peter1138> your best luck would be to make blank the screen you don't want with DPMS
16:12:38  <peter1138> -make
16:14:50  <Eddi|zuHause> that doesn't change input in my monitor
16:15:10  <Eddi|zuHause> or i didn't find the "autoselect" setting
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16:33:17  <peter1138> just get more monitors
16:34:06  <jonty-comp> one of my monitors has autodetect
16:34:12  <fjb> Or send the new pc back.
16:34:14  <jonty-comp> and the other one doesn't, despite it being the same model
16:38:22  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r18897 /trunk/src/station_cmd.cpp: -Fix: Land area information read the stationspec also for non-rail-stationtiles, which is no longer valid since r18876.
16:41:39  <Eddi|zuHause> <fjb> Or send the new pc back. <- i am seriously considering that, but that doesn't change the need for a new computer anyway
16:41:47  <Alberth> run a remote X server at another desktop for the other machine :p
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16:42:33  <fjb>  Eddi|zuHause: Buy a quieter one and a second monitor.
16:43:06  <Eddi|zuHause> fjb: i need one where i can put my DVB card in
16:43:30  <Eddi|zuHause> they advertised a PCI port on the mainboard, but that one is blocked by the graphics card cooler
16:43:52  <fjb> Cheap micro ATX board...
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16:46:27  <[Jako]> weird stuff
16:46:38  <[Jako]> openttd -D allways overwrited my cfg file :S
16:46:56  <[Jako]> fixed when i changed permissions of that file
16:47:26  <peter1138> or supply -x
16:48:01  <[Jako]> why it acts like that
16:48:29  <Eddi|zuHause> openttd always writes its config on exit
16:48:36  <Eddi|zuHause> except you start it with -x
16:48:45  <Muxy> pb with linkin - VC2005 - new ottdutils (v3) download and librairy path set. Pb with fontcache.obj. Seems to be freetype.. what can i check ?
16:49:25  <[Jako]> yes but i think it should take cmnds from cfg and if nothing isn't changed
16:49:45  <Eddi|zuHause> wha?
16:50:55  <[Jako]> it should save the changed commands to the file
16:51:07  <[Jako]> but now it puts all default
16:52:06  <Eddi|zuHause> it shouldn't put anything to default...
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16:57:00  <glx> unless you changed difficulty settings in config without setting it to custom
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17:30:38  <[Jako]> maybe i edited the file when the server was on! :(
17:30:47  <[Jako]> so only pure failure from the user
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17:38:50  <rait> why is it, when you hold on to the resize handle on the map window and draw circles with the mouse, window contents (like trains) move smoothly, but when you let go, it's all choppy?
17:40:16  <rait> i assume every time window gets resized by a pixel, it get's redrawn. so why does it take like half a sec do redraw it normally?
17:41:48  <rait> would it be a performance killer if it would do it twice as fast?
17:42:48  <rait> does anyone actually understand what i'm talking about? :D
17:42:55  <Eddi|zuHause> no.
17:43:52  <rait> wicked
17:44:02  <rait> okay
17:44:08  <rait> i'll try to clarify
17:45:10  <[Jako]> does anyone know what is the command for giant screenshot
17:45:22  <[Jako]> for dedicated server
17:46:05  <rait> open a map window and point it to some heavy traffic site. now hold down the resize button and resize it smoothly. you can see that trains and stuff move smoothly on their lines. but when you just keep a map open, they like jump from one place to another every once in a while
17:47:03  <Eddi|zuHause> [Jako]: "help screenshot"?
17:47:12  <rait> just constantly resize the map and you'll see
17:49:11  <Alberth> because if you do nothing, the map is redrawn only every x ticks
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17:49:49  <rait> can't it be decreased?
17:50:32  <Alberth> static const uint8 FORCE_REFRESH_PERIOD = 0x1F;  <-- sure, change this number and recompile
17:50:50  <rait> in ... where?
17:51:01  <Alberth> src/smallmap_gui.cpp
17:51:39  <Alberth> but cpu time spent on smallmap rendering cannot be spend on moving trains, or other game updates.
17:52:06  <Alberth> and if you run a big game, you need that time
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18:02:38  <SpComb^> gathers: autosep fails badly for tram lines with congestion
18:02:46  <SpComb^> well, short tram lines with congestion
18:08:09  <gathers> symptoms?
18:09:14  <ChoHag> I have openttd on my phone.
18:09:54  <Eddi|zuHause> ask it to leave a number in case we need to call it back
18:11:23  <ChoHag> I'm not sure if it
18:11:47  <ChoHag> 's actually playable, but it works.
18:12:01  <SpComb^> gathers: ten trams, three stops, maybe 10-15t in total
18:12:14  <Eddi|zuHause> should be fine as long as you have more than 8MB ram...
18:12:24  <SpComb^> gathers: wait times go up to 500 ticks (15 seconds), and the trams become really late
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18:13:23  <gathers> only initially or does it get worse/better with time?
18:13:31  <SpComb^> seems to stay like that
18:13:40  <SpComb^> I'll turn it back on and see what happens again
18:14:27  <SpComb^> it works admirably well in other places with less congestion, though
18:14:32  <ChoHag> Oh it does, that's not what I was referring to.
18:15:17  <ChoHag> But I have no mouse and a screen 3" wide.
18:15:59  <Eddi|zuHause> sounds like my laptop in the late 90s ;)
18:16:47  <lennard> question! is there any specific reason the 1.0.0-beta3 debian package isnt ubuntu-compatible? :)
18:17:00  <Eddi|zuHause> lennard: libicu
18:17:32  <lennard> yes, well, I can see that, but is that ubuntus 'fault' or the packagers? :)
18:17:42  <glx> stupid lib with hardcoded version in function names
18:17:51  <Eddi|zuHause> it's libicu's fault
18:17:59  <lennard> ah, right
18:18:01  <lennard> ok then :)
18:18:41  <Rubidium> and Ubuntu not packaging the version that is in Debian :)
18:19:18  <glx> you can use the generic binary
18:19:51  <lennard> I was planning to, thanks :)
18:20:43  <ChoHag> There's a 1.0?
18:21:47  <glx> not yet
18:21:58  <glx> only 1.0.0-beta3
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18:26:07  <ChoHag> Close enough.
18:27:10  <SpComb^> whoever decided that drag-and-drop in the orders GUI was a good idea deserves to have their head chopped off
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18:28:37  <gathers> SpComb^: are there too many vehicles for there to be any meaningful separation?
18:28:59  <SpComb^> gathers: more or less
18:29:20  <SpComb^> gathers: although it's fairing a lot better now that I've expanded the tram stops to two tiles
18:42:58  <ChoHag> fareing
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18:45:36  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r18898 /trunk/src/lang/ (7 files): (log message trimmed)
18:45:36  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:36  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: italian - 2 changes by lorenzodv
18:45:36  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: japanese - 16 changes by PouncingAnt
18:45:36  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: korean - 1 changes by junho2813
18:45:38  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: lithuanian - 275 changes by BlinK_
18:45:38  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: norwegian_bokmal - 7 changes by Zhygometh
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19:14:57  <welshdragon> TrueBrain: I am having trouble committing the translation strings
19:15:18  <welshdragon> (i'm uisng Chrome and Mac OSX 10.5.6)
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19:30:18  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r18899 /trunk/src/misc_gui.cpp: -Fix: the default button was enabled even when the ENABLE_DEFAULT flag wasn't set
19:31:06  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r18900 /trunk/src/window_gui.h: -Document: that an empty string for OnQueryTextFinished means 'use default'
19:33:08  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r18901 /trunk/src/genworld_gui.cpp: -Change: make the default button work again for the world generation window; previously it worked due to the bug fixed in r18899. Do not add it again for the town custom number because there is no default for that one.
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19:33:30  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r18902 /trunk/src/settings_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#3559]: the default button for the advanced settings didn't work
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19:43:21  <rait> anyone know how to create symlinks in windows?
19:43:56  <rait> the thing is, i don't want to copy all data to my documents, but i'd like that all versions use the same set
19:46:54  <SpComb^> rait: openttd will probably be able to find them if you dump them in some system-wide dir
19:47:07  <planetmaker> section 4.2 in the readme...
19:47:11  <planetmaker> often cited, seldom read
19:47:19  <SpComb^> which reminds me, I should stop building symlink-farms and do that instead :)
19:47:22  <SpComb^> d'oh
19:47:40  <SpComb^> funny how you don't even think of something yourself until you tell it to someone else
19:50:44  <rait> now that i have read it, i think it should be updated, as some windows version's dont have a "Documents and Settings" folder
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19:52:33  <Rubidium> rait: but calling it $CSIDL_PERSONAL might not be that useful :)
19:52:50  <Rubidium> or $CSIDL_COMMON_DOCUMENTS for that matter
19:53:27  <rait> hehe, dev joke. not getting it but i presume it holds some magic directory name
19:53:27  <glx> it's "my docs" dir ;)
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19:56:53  <Rubidium> rait: it's how Microsoft calls the directory in its API
19:58:42  *** Eoin_ is now known as Eoin
19:59:23  <rait> well, referencing to microsoft API in a readme.txt is not the way to go
20:00:47  <Rubidium> CSIDL_PERSONAL (FOLDERID_Documents)
20:00:48  <Rubidium> The file system directory used to physically store a user's common repository of documents. A typical path is C:\Documents and Settings\username\My Documents.
20:00:54  <Rubidium> from the API
20:01:27  <Rubidium> apparantly they messed with it since 6.0
20:02:14  <rait> i dont neet to do any compiling just to edit a text file, right?
20:02:18  <Rubidium> i.e. for 6.0 it's "The virtual folder that represents the My Documents desktop item"
20:05:41  <Rubidium> no, you don't need to do any compiling
20:08:19  * Rubidium likes it when people notify us something is wrong 3 years after it became wrong
20:08:47  <Rubidium> okay, I'm rounding up now (by 1 week)
20:10:19  <rait> you're going to love when i say that i'm actually going to fix it :)
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20:11:07  <glx> for me it's C:\Users\<username>\Documents ;)
20:11:26  <glx> and of course Users and Documents are displayed translated
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20:35:43  <rait> i assume that i don't have rights to just commit, i have to create a patch and submit it somewhere.
20:35:46  <lennard> biff TrueBrain
20:36:26  <rait> "biff"?
20:37:05  <lennard> it means 'youve got mail', but in nerd-speak instead of aol-speak ;)
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20:37:59  <lennard> incidentally, biff was the name of a dog (that part is real) that supposedly barked at the mailman (not to true)
20:38:17  <rait> right ......
20:39:03  <Alberth> rait: after making a patch, submit to flyspray
20:39:50  <rait> some magic "submit a patch!" button there or i'll need to submit it as bugfix?
20:40:05  <Alberth> TB is not going to give you commit access
20:40:13  <Alberth> there is a 'patch' category
20:41:03  <Alberth> but bugfix is fine too
20:41:34  <Alberth> hmm, and perhaps more appropriate here
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20:45:40  <rait> there is no "none of the above" category
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20:49:24  <Alberth> just set 'Type' to bug fix, and leave 'Category' to Core.
20:49:45  <Alberth> not entirely correct, but the best available, it seems
20:49:51  <Rubidium> what's the first part of the diff about?
20:50:04  <Rubidium> or is that your editor that added a BOM
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20:51:00  <rait> i just added 2 lines, everything other is not my doing
20:51:05  <Rubidium> also C:\Users folder\<username>\Documents\OpenTTD (did they really add the " folder" part?)
20:51:27  <rait> oh dang, my bad
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20:52:40  <rait> it's c:\users\<username> to be clear
20:53:05  <Rubidium> yup, the first part is the BOM
20:53:18  <andythenorth> frosch123: small nfo puzzle
20:53:18  <andythenorth>
20:53:32  <andythenorth> first varaction produces no warning.  second varaction produces warning
20:53:33  <andythenorth> why?
20:53:46  <andythenorth> :)
20:56:29  <Rubidium> rait: wouldn't be clearer?
20:56:53  <Rubidium> because experience has shown that people skip the notes quite frequently
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20:57:54  <rait> actually, it's Public, not All Users nowadays
20:59:42  <glx> I have both
20:59:45  <Rubidium> okay, new version; that's correct?
21:01:00  <rait> xp All Users have Shared Documents subdir
21:01:07  <rait> not just Documents
21:01:28  <frosch123> andythenorth: no idea, ask dalestan :)
21:01:34  <Rubidium> hmm, does 2000 have an all users?
21:01:42  <Rubidium> 9x probably doesn't have it, right?
21:01:47  <Sacro> iirc yes it does
21:02:00  <Sacro> 9x errm
21:02:02  <Sacro> I don't recall
21:02:03  <rait> did 9x even have user accounds? :D
21:02:08  <Sacro> wasn it just c:\my documents\
21:02:14  <Sacro> rait: yes it did
21:02:25  <Sacro> but I don't recall how it did seperate home folders
21:02:25  <glx> but only for network
21:02:37  <rait> c:\my documents\ rings a bell
21:02:48  <glx> and ESC allowed to log on the machine anyway ;?
21:02:51  <rait> oh yes, the magical 9x domain ...
21:02:53  <peter1138> Sacro, it copied them around on login, iirc
21:03:17  <peter1138> or maybe it was an internal symlink type affair
21:03:19  <frosch123> 1A 20 \d00 // create 0 <- andythenorth: does it also happen if you put another constant there? i.e. maybe nforenum detects that the result is always zero
21:03:42  <Rubidium> The file system directory that contains documents that are common to all users. A typical paths is C:\Documents and Settings\All Users\Documents. Valid for Windows NT systems and Windows 95 and Windows 98 systems with Shfolder.dll installed.
21:03:52  <Rubidium> so yes, 95 and 98 could have that directory too
21:04:01  <Sacro> course they *could*
21:04:08  <Sacro> but I don't recall them having that
21:04:14  <rait> i can't either
21:04:38  <Rubidium> well, MS says it's valid for win95/8
21:04:44  <glx> shfolder.dll came with IE5 IIRC
21:04:46  <Rubidium> only it doesn't tell the actual value
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21:06:33  <rait> has anyone verifyed that openttd is actually playable on 9x?
21:08:01  <andythenorth> frosch123: I think you're correct
21:08:43  <andythenorth> frosch123: yup, correct
21:09:18  <rait> curiosity is dangerous: i'm going to fire up my old 98 installation disk just to find out :D
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21:10:27  <glx> rait: it is playable :)
21:10:52  <glx> I checked my latest change in my win98 VM :)
21:11:16  <rait> did you feel ... 10 years younger? :D
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21:11:59  <Rubidium> glx: can you check what the CSIDL_PERSONAL resolves to in win98?
21:12:52  <glx> I have grf in my docs and openttd runs
21:13:47  <Rubidium> so is right?
21:14:24  <glx> yes
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21:14:32  <rait> should be
21:15:13  <glx> all users\documents exists on 7 too (but it's not accessible via explorer ;) )
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21:17:44  <TrueBrain> lennard: whoho! Will give the mirror its first sync in a moment .. need to finish my Mass Effect 2 mission first
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21:19:27  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r18903 /trunk/readme.txt: -Fix [FS#3562]: file locations for Windows weren't correct for all versions of Windows
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21:21:20  <planetmaker> :-D I just dug through an old disk. I found out I obviously played already OpenTTD 0.4.0 ... must have forgotten it for a time then ;-)
21:21:59  <planetmaker> and re-discovered it in the 0.5.3 / 0.6.0 time
21:23:01  <frosch123> ah, a planetmaker, got a question for you
21:23:18  * planetmaker plays oracle of Delphi
21:24:05  <planetmaker> well,  yes? :-)
21:24:32  <frosch123> how are sprites/source/ToyFactory1.png and sprites/pcx/industries/toyfactory/ToyFactory1.pcx related to each other?
21:24:57  <frosch123> are they just the same
21:25:07  <planetmaker> uhm... let me check
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21:29:24  <planetmaker> They look the same. But the png is RGB, not in the correct palette.
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21:30:34  <planetmaker> btw, other question: you once wanted to publish some tool. I don't quite recall what, but I recall that it was helpful ;-)
21:30:40  <planetmaker> what came of it?
21:30:43  <frosch123> he, so assuming i changed the pcx, by adding some transparent blue at the top, how would i have to change the png
21:31:07  <planetmaker> he... I'd just change the pcx and not worry about the png
21:31:14  <frosch123> well, i guess the tool needs about one day of work which i have been pushing for 3 weeks or so
21:31:48  <frosch123> but i added .pcx loading, which needs only 3 seconds for trg1 on my old machine
21:32:09  <frosch123> (which i consider fast enough for a java application)
21:32:44  <planetmaker> that indeed sounds fast enough
21:33:35  <planetmaker> if you want to change the png, though, change it the same way as the pcx: maintain the colour and take the background. But... what for would you want to change the png?
21:33:47  <planetmaker> (except if you add png import / export to grfcodec)
21:33:52  <frosch123> actually i wanted to do it today, but then i decided to play ogfx toyland during afternoon, and then i decided to fix some glitches in ogfx... :p
21:34:03  <planetmaker> :-P
21:35:21  <planetmaker> but as long as you had fun, that's what counts :-)
21:35:52  <planetmaker> btw: I pushed your 59E/F comment change also to opengfx ;-)
21:36:36  <TrueBrain> lennard: as requested, do you have latitude / longitude coordinated of the location of the server?
21:36:43  <lennard> oh, right
21:37:10  <frosch123> so, i can do the "church cream"-joke again?
21:37:50  <lennard> 52.239995,6.853752
21:38:01  <lennard> somewhere around there
21:38:06  <TrueBrain> k, thank you
21:38:07  <planetmaker> church cream joke?
21:38:57  <planetmaker> doesn't ring a bell right now...
21:39:55  <TrueBrain> I have no idea why, but my connection to the server is slowish :p
21:43:34  <TrueBrain> pfff, syncing 30GB takes for ever :(
21:43:42  <TrueBrain> @calc 30 * 1024 / 10
21:43:42  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: 3072
21:43:42  <Rubidium> lennard: that makes me wonder... are the servers in Seinhuis or in Teehuis
21:43:58  <TrueBrain> at max speed it will take close to an hour .. lol
21:44:03  <lennard> what, don't you recognize it? :P
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21:45:22  <Rubidium> lennard: it's that makes me wonder
21:45:28  <lennard> ah
21:45:34  <lennard> these ones are in seinhuis
21:45:35  <Rubidium> I know they have been in Seinhuis
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21:52:52  <andythenorth> industry window texts...processing industry.  Delivering cargo 1 causes 'efficiency' of processing cargos 2 and 3 to increase.  Which is better:
21:53:12  <andythenorth> "Efficiency: 50%"   |   "Efficiency: 100%"     or
21:53:29  <andythenorth> "Efficiency: low"     |   "Efficiency: high"
21:53:30  <andythenorth> ??
21:54:10  <frosch123> if 50% and 100% are the only possible values, they look silly, and i prefer "words"
21:54:36  <andythenorth> I agree
21:55:06  <andythenorth> Also, some people will argue that efficiency can never be '100%'.  Those people are not people I want to spend time talking to :P
21:55:15  <Alberth> numbers also indicate a precise value
21:55:18  <TrueBrain> lennard / Rubidium: just to confirm I am not going crazy: when the rsync is done and I reset the balancer, there is a NL mirror. It redirects to All calls to are given a 307 (or 301 for NSIS) to (with correct paths and stuff). Correct, right? (and within all the rules)
21:55:25  <planetmaker> andythenorth: but those people are right :-P
21:55:52  <lennard> TrueBrain: sound good to me anyway :)
21:56:03  <planetmaker> but only if speaking in closed thermodynamic processes ;-)
21:57:02  <Rubidium> shouldn't redirect directly to snt? Saves processing power at the server and such
21:57:02  <andythenorth> planetmaker: in this case they are also right, as at '100%', 8 units cargo in will equal 8 units cargo out....
21:57:19  <Rubidium> and then have redirect to snt too
21:57:33  <TrueBrain> Rubidium: and that is why you guys are here ;)
21:57:38  <TrueBrain> btw, 90 mbit/s ;)
21:57:53  <planetmaker> andythenorth: I just define my output units to be much smaller ;-) but way more voluminous. So... even 8->16 is arguably acceptable
21:58:23  *** heffer [] has quit [Quit: heffer]
21:58:48  <planetmaker> s/smaller/lighter/
21:59:39  <TrueBrain> Rubidium: okay, so now any <country>" target="_blank"> given to the balancer, is being redirected to its mirror url. If that is <country>" target="_blank">, an infinite loop is created (aborted at some time by the browser)
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22:00:30  <lennard> why any? its just nl thats special ;)
22:00:50  <TrueBrain> the balancer doesn't care :)
22:00:54  <TrueBrain> I write general things, not specific :)
22:01:04  <TrueBrain> it is up to the proxy httpd to redirect to the correct httpd :)
22:01:14  <TrueBrain> if he sends it to the balancer, he redirects (as that is all he knows/does)
22:01:15  <Rubidium> hmm, that reminds me of "General Specific"
22:01:29  <TrueBrain> and I salute you
22:01:35  <TrueBrain> (too much How I met your mother)
22:03:10  <TrueBrain> lennard: and no illusions, I am sure more mirrors will join with the same policy :)
22:04:15  <Rubidium> where's the fast forward in TTD?
22:04:34  <TrueBrain> why are you requesting a kick?
22:04:57  <Rubidium> because I then have a reason not to show my face in here for a few weeks :)
22:05:12  <TrueBrain> ah; you are excused either way .. go fix your PC problems :)
22:06:10  <planetmaker> trunk/src/settings_gui.cpp: In member function 'virtual void GameSettingsWindow::OnQueryTextFinished(char*)': /Users/ingo/ottd/trunk/src/settings_gui.cpp:1676: error: cast from 'const void*' to 'int32' loses precision
22:06:12  <Rubidium> I'm at it at the moment... just need another <lots of hours> to wait till some 'engineer' calls me to make an appointment
22:06:33  <TrueBrain> which might or might not fix the problems .. yeah ...
22:06:46  <planetmaker> in r18903
22:06:52  <TrueBrain> Rubidium: check leaseweb graphs :)
22:07:00  <frosch123> planetmaker: add a (size_t) after the first cast
22:07:09  <Rubidium> itsybitsy spiky?
22:07:11  <glx> planetmaker: you're late for this one ;)
22:07:19  <planetmaker> uh? I just pulled?
22:08:11  <TrueBrain> <- doesn't happen often I am not afraid by such spike
22:08:12  <frosch123> well, noone committed the fix
22:08:13  <glx> peter.1138 reported it 1 hour ago
22:09:00  <planetmaker> eh... It's a fatal compile error here ;-)
22:09:10  <peter1138> and here
22:09:34  <Rubidium> tss... you should use a 32 bits system then! :)
22:10:07  <peter1138> tss... pointer mangling
22:10:26  <Terkhen> good night
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22:11:21  <lennard> TrueBrain: also, I still have to take care of the index sorting thing
22:11:35  <TrueBrain> would be nice if you can fix it; too bad if you can't
22:11:37  <lennard> is very doable, so I'll get to it tomorrow
22:11:43  <TrueBrain> :)
22:11:51  <TrueBrain> you shouldn't be 'working' on a sunday
22:12:00  <lennard> this is hobby :P
22:12:19  <lennard> although remarkably like work
22:12:25  <lennard> then again, work is part-time
22:12:28  <lennard> so I'll live
22:12:33  <TrueBrain> I don't know .. not at all ...
22:12:36  <TrueBrain> +that
22:13:07  <glx> msvc (x64) has no problems with that
22:13:12  <TrueBrain> whoho, it already is at '2' of the nightlies
22:13:27  <planetmaker> gcc 4.2 here
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22:21:25  <TrueBrain> why do we have so many releases .. pff :p
22:22:16  <Alberth> Fake a 'HD accident' where we loose some of the less interesting releases :p
22:22:28  <TrueBrain> hard to do, with all those mirrors around :p
22:22:42  <TrueBrain> even the SVN is at 3 locations ...
22:23:11  <Alberth> not to mention all the hg and git clones of people at home
22:23:19  *** Bluelight [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
22:23:42  <TrueBrain> and if one HD crashes, the other needs to crash too ...
22:23:43  *** Bluelight [] has joined #openttd
22:23:44  <peter1138> is svn being slow or is it my connection? :s
22:23:57  <TrueBrain> peter1138: we are pushing a mirror at 93 mbit/s :p
22:23:59  <TrueBrain> almost done
22:24:02  <peter1138> ah
22:24:02  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r18904 /trunk/src/saveload/saveload.cpp: -Fix: Writing LZO-compressed savegames would produce invalid files and potentially overwrite memory.
22:24:30  <TrueBrain> there
22:24:53  <TrueBrain> lennard: why does your dirlisting list the 'create' date instead of the 'last modified' date?
22:25:08  <lennard> if only I knew :)
22:25:09  <TrueBrain> we take good care of our binaries, and date them correctly (last modified) to when they were released
22:25:14  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r18905 /trunk/src/settings_gui.cpp: -Fix (r18902): Compile error on 64-bit with gcc
22:25:20  <TrueBrain> but now all dates are set to the create date .. which is not something we can control really
22:25:36  <lennard> well, I do know to some extent: the code says inode->ctim :P
22:25:45  <TrueBrain> make it mtim!
22:25:48  <TrueBrain> much saner :p
22:26:01  <peter1138> just hack the file system
22:26:22  <TrueBrain> k, going to fiddle a bit with the balancer, expect trouble accessing
22:26:51  <planetmaker> ty, peter1138
22:28:39  <Rubidium> 2.33547762036e-05
22:28:50  <Rubidium> awfully precise for GBs
22:29:07  <Rubidium> partial bits? Do they exist?
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22:29:36  <lennard> Rubidium: talking to anyone in particular?
22:29:38  <peter1138> imprecisely precise?
22:29:46  *** Grelouk [] has quit [Quit: Quitte]
22:29:52  <Rubidium> lennard: yeah, to myself :)
22:30:00  <TrueBrain> and to my stats, I can only assume :p
22:30:01  <lennard> carry on then :)
22:30:02  <planetmaker> like server distances. Given to the cm...
22:30:28  <Rubidium> oh yes... that reminds me
22:30:39  <Rubidium> what to do when we have a mirror in the ISS? What would the location be?
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22:30:57  <planetmaker> :-D
22:31:05  <lennard> pfft, like it matters... the actual uplink of my servers is miles from the given location
22:31:11  <lennard> well, actually, maybe just the one mile
22:32:31  <planetmaker> Rubidium: but then: it's damn hard to get even sufficient bits uplink for simple joystick to the ISS.
22:32:42  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: alberth * r18906 /trunk/src/smallmap_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Use start and end column position instead of a mask for drawing a column in the smallmap.
22:33:08  <Rubidium> planetmaker: but... they've got internet on the ISS
22:33:11  <planetmaker> E.g. you cannot even do remote control of your stuff aboard, but need to "voice control" an astronaut to handle the (local) joystick for you
22:33:30  <planetmaker> Rubidium: yeah, uplink ;-)
22:33:49  <planetmaker> but... I guess it's a different channel or so.
22:34:07  <planetmaker> At least they're very terse about data rates. A pain to be honest
22:34:10  <Rubidium> planetmaker: but they can twitter from the ISS!
22:34:13  <TrueBrain> they have now real Internet there planetmaker !
22:34:31  <TrueBrain> I don't won't to now the latency ....
22:34:45  <TrueBrain> Rubidium: and that mirror will be called ISS, and the graphical coordinates will be off the charts
22:35:26  <planetmaker> Also it's a question of which module you're in ;-)
22:35:42  <lennard> hmm
22:35:46  <planetmaker> They got different systems up there. And each nation guard its system carefully... like if it mattered
22:35:48  <lennard> is ISS geo-stationary?
22:35:53  <planetmaker> of course not
22:36:05  <sawtooth> far too low of an orbit for that
22:36:06  <planetmaker> it's in a low earth orbit
22:36:07  <TrueBrain> planetmaker: remind yourself that for him that is not so much 'of course' ;)
22:36:25  <planetmaker> 300km vs 36000km is a difference ;)
22:36:36  <lennard> well, I'm consider educated enough that I probably should know ;)
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22:36:59  <lennard> but, anyway, that really would be a bit of a problem for just about any coordinate-system
22:37:03  <TrueBrain> this is rather specific stuff ;) And as his name suggests, he knows a tiny bit more about it than you do, I hope :p
22:37:17  <lennard> dunno, space != planet :P
22:37:25  <TrueBrain> lennard: not really: just an "initiaal stelsel" based on their location/speed ;)
22:37:25  <planetmaker> :-)
22:37:26  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: alberth * r18907 /trunk/src/blitter/ (8 files): -Cleanup: Smallmap was the last user of SetPixelIfEmpty().
22:37:40  <TrueBrain> go Alberth , go Alberth , go Alberth  :)
22:38:03  <Alberth> sorry, not today :)
22:38:14  <TrueBrain> lennard: and don't see us having any problems with the fact we rotate around the sun at a pretty high speed :p :p :)
22:38:33  <lennard> yeah, well, you *know* we convienently overlooked that fact :P
22:39:08  <Rubidium> or the solar system in the galaxy or the galaxy itself :)
22:39:26  <TrueBrain> exactly :)
22:39:51  <TrueBrain> syncing latest changes to all mirror .. that should get the NL mirror up and running in all dreamable ways :p
22:40:09  <planetmaker> The centre of the universe is me ;-)
22:40:17  <TrueBrain> LOL! The GB mirror immediately gets offloaded to NL :p
22:40:32  <TrueBrain> even the CZ gets offloaded ... I guess most of our users are around NL :p
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22:42:06  <planetmaker> good night
22:42:18  <TrueBrain> lennard: please visit ; it should redirect you to snt.utwente .. can you confirm that for me?
22:42:19  <TrueBrain> night planetmaker
22:42:46  <lennard> TrueBrain: almost, it actually appends the index.html :P
22:42:47  * frosch123 is still in cz
22:42:59  <lennard> but yeah
22:43:01  * planetmaker got utwente
22:43:03  <lennard> it does
22:43:04  <TrueBrain> lennard: is that a problem?
22:43:06  <planetmaker> andyway... :-)
22:43:24  <lennard> its a bit unconventional, but its ok :)
22:43:34  <TrueBrain> lennard: please visit ; it should redirect you to snt.utwente .. can you confirm that for me?
22:43:44  <TrueBrain> (and if both are within the guidelines you provided us with)
22:44:00  <Hassan> Utwente, the biggest P*** area in NL
22:44:04  <lennard> looks good to me
22:44:13  <TrueBrain> good :) Then NL mirror is up and running :)
22:44:16  <fjb>
22:44:16  <Hassan> At least for downloading :P
22:44:24  <TrueBrain> I thank you very much for your time and effort, and speed of setting it up :)
22:44:29  <lennard> np :)
22:44:43  <lennard> methinks Hassan has a grudge :)
22:45:04  <TrueBrain> P .... Pool?
22:45:17  <Hassan> Well, I would say beer in that case
22:45:22  <Hassan> which is the same as water
22:45:35  <lennard> you're confusing us with heineken
22:45:37  <Hassan> but anyhow, Utwente has some nice local network regarding downloading
22:45:42  <Hassan> Grolsch mate
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22:45:57  <lennard> yeah, well, thats beer, not water :)
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22:46:40  <Hassan> Its just that the use of water is almost the same as the use of Beer
22:46:46  <Hassan> Might be a negative thing
22:47:44  <Hassan> While I am here, I might just do a small request, does someone here have a greyscale map of Egypt? I would like to make a nice scenario out of it....
22:49:57  <fjb> pyramid.grf
22:50:20  <Hassan> well, you would be tempted to just build the biggest OTTD hills
22:50:27  <Hassan> to make them look like the piramids
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22:50:42  <Hassan> where in game players would place their HQ's on, and brag about
22:50:46  <frosch123> yeah, just flatten them for rails :p
22:51:02  <Hassan> or that indeed
22:52:45  * fjb doesn't want to be in Egypt.
22:53:30  <Hassan> How come fjb?
22:53:50  <Hassan> It is a beautiful place, where (if there was no desert) many many people could live
22:54:04  <TrueBrain> hmm .. the balancer algorithm really works :)
22:54:05  * TrueBrain is happy
22:54:31  <Coco-Banana-Man> balancer algorithm?
22:54:42  <TrueBrain> algorithm which distributes clients over our http mirrors
22:54:52  <frosch123> Hassan: fjb is used to snow :p
22:54:55  <Ammler> does bananas already load from mirrors too?
22:55:14  <TrueBrain> for which I wrote my own httpd, 184 lines of code :)
22:55:15  <TrueBrain> Ammler: no
22:55:26  <fjb> Yeah.
22:55:27  <Coco-Banana-Man> ah
22:55:30  <lennard> TrueBrain: so suppose we go down, any detection on your side or do we need to poke you guys? :)
22:55:40  <fjb> And Egypt is too repressive for my taste.
22:55:48  <TrueBrain> currently, no detection;
22:56:19  <TrueBrain> but the best detection is our community, which rarely let such things slip :p
22:56:26  <lennard> heh
22:56:51  <lennard> we need to add a NIC one of these days (to replace one of the crappy onboard ports)
22:56:53  <TrueBrain> I mostly read sooner in this channel something is wrong, than my detection software can inform me :p
22:56:57  <lennard> but I'll just give you a shout :)
22:57:08  <Ammler> are or will there be any public summarized stats about the downloads?
22:57:15  <TrueBrain> hehe, that is fine :)
22:57:24  <lennard> mozilla is easier, they just figure it out and disable me :P
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22:57:30  <lennard> all on their own
22:57:34  <TrueBrain> Ammler: yes; see for a draft
22:57:48  <TrueBrain> lennard: the software will be extended to do so, but that will take some time (a week or so)
22:58:07  <TrueBrain> I first need to rewrite the rsync part, as it now does mirror by mirror, instead of them all at once
22:58:17  <TrueBrain> (wow, I write crappy english)
22:59:18  <Eoin> The SixXS Staff have honored your request for a tunnel with the following
22:59:18  <Eoin> specifications
22:59:23  <Eoin> Woo! i have IPv6
22:59:35  <TrueBrain> wow, without any comment he honored your request?
22:59:37  <TrueBrain> that should be a first ...
22:59:41  <TrueBrain> praise yourself lucky ;)
23:00:00  <Eoin> My reason for the tunnel was "The only one nearby"
23:00:00  <TrueBrain> (sorry, I shouldn't bitch on SixXS, they deliver good service)
23:00:26  <Ammler> Is it ok to link directly to those binaries from forums or similiar? (e.g. instead to our :-)
23:00:39  <TrueBrain> I have a Surfnet connection here, but Surfnet is no longer in their normal list of tunnels .. I had to try a few times before my tunnel was finally switched to the Surfnet POP .. went from 14ms to 2ms ...
23:00:42  *** Nite_Owl [] has joined #openttd
23:00:51  <TrueBrain> Ammler: well, that link is broken, so no
23:00:53  <Eoin> 2ms? nice
23:00:55  <Nite_Owl> Hello all
23:01:44  <frosch123> TrueBrain: the bananas dir only contains the most recent stuff, right?
23:01:52  <TrueBrain> yes
23:01:54  <Ammler> well, s|/bananas||
23:02:00  <TrueBrain> Ammler: wrong
23:02:09  <Ammler> lol
23:02:15  <frosch123> hmm, even required by the tos
23:02:43  <TrueBrain> Ammler: either way, I just synced those files today, expect many changes in the directory-structure and others in the coming days/weeks
23:03:04  <TrueBrain> for now it is just a testbed
23:03:05  *** Eddi|zuHause [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
23:03:19  <Eoin> How can i test if i have IPv6 tunnel working?
23:03:24  <TrueBrain>
23:03:26  <Rubidium> Eoin:
23:03:26  <TrueBrain> top of the page
23:03:28  <TrueBrain> will tell you
23:03:38  <Eoin> hmm
23:03:40  <Eoin> it says no
23:03:52  <Eoin> Ive "Enabled" the AICCU client
23:04:14  <fjb> and look if the turtle is dancing.
23:04:20  *** Eddi|zuHause [] has joined #openttd
23:04:33  <Eoin> sad turtle :(
23:05:10  <TrueBrain> reminds me, I have to remove the old, obsolete, SixXS tunnel from :p
23:05:22  <TrueBrain> there :)
23:07:00  <Eoin> I wonder
23:07:05  <Eoin> i may need to install the driver for AICCU
23:07:49  <Eoin> Any idea if Win7 comes with Tap32
23:07:55  <Eoin> It dosent list which OS do/dont
23:08:27  <TrueBrain>
23:08:57  <TrueBrain> in general:
23:09:41  <Eoin> im on 32 bit
23:09:48  <Eoin> will that variaty much
23:14:54  <Eoin> Right, it seems Windows 7 is annoying and requires lots of extra setting up
23:14:57  <Eoin> :|
23:19:46  <TrueBrain> right, this has been a good day
23:19:48  <TrueBrain> good night all
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23:43:48  <SpComb^> curious, YAPF/YAPP won't route a train through an empty station if there's another route available?
23:44:26  <Nite_Owl> penalties
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