Log for #openttd on 4th February 2010:
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00:03:30  <ccfreak2k> I was told that Vector is distinct from vector.
00:03:40  <ccfreak2k> Now I have to solve the mystery of the missing datatype.
00:06:24  <Rubidium> STL is all lowercase, so Vector isn't in there
00:06:25  <Faux> This channel is like ##c++, but scarier.
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00:20:58  <Shapeshifter> the hell?
00:21:17  <Shapeshifter> how can I prevent this from happening?
00:21:44  <Shapeshifter> seems like there was a traffic jam at the lights
00:21:46  <Rubidium> by building bridges
00:22:22  <Shapeshifter> mh. and how can I clean up the mess?
00:22:30  <Shapeshifter> stuff just sits around now.
00:22:42  <Rubidium> wait
00:23:01  <Shapeshifter> but I'm worried that the train will come by again and crash into things again
00:23:12  <Nite_Owl> stop the train
00:23:20  <Shapeshifter> ok.
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00:25:15  <PeterT> Build a temporary bridge to the right of the road
00:25:21  <PeterT> and redirect traffic to there
00:25:36  <Nite_Owl> Need to feed - later all
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00:26:43  <ccfreak2k> Wouldn't a PBS work well there?
00:26:53  <Eddi|zuHause> double rails are a real death trap for road vehicles
00:27:02  <Eddi|zuHause> PBS even increases that effect
00:27:27  <ccfreak2k> Shouldn't cars check to see if the tile ahead of them is allocated?
00:27:50  <ccfreak2k> It won't solve all the problems, but at least a few.
00:28:09  <Eddi|zuHause> someone attempted to make a patch like that
00:28:16  <SmatZ> it would cause jams, too
00:28:29  <Eddi|zuHause> but that doesn't consider (longer) articulated vehicles
00:28:45  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know if he got anywhere
00:29:01  <Rubidium> and it won't consider crossing - road+ - crossing with a traffic jam
00:29:34  <PeterT> Eddi|zuHause> someone attempted to make a patch like that <-- "someone", being you?
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00:29:43  <Eddi|zuHause> PeterT: no, other patch
00:29:56  <thingwath> Is there some pathfinder setting to make road vehicles avoid crossings at any cost?
00:30:18  <Eddi|zuHause> PeterT: someone tried to make vehicles check if they would get stuck on the rail
00:30:31  <PeterT> How did that work out?
00:30:53  <Eddi|zuHause> you seriously need to work on your reading comprehension
00:31:16  <Rubidium> thingwath: not "at any cost", but yes there is (at least for YAPF)
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00:31:44  <Rubidium> and with that I mean that if a level crossing is the only option it will take it
00:31:59  <thingwath> That's exactly what I hoped for :)
00:32:03  <Rubidium> or if the detour is ridiciously long, i.e twice around the map or so
00:32:23  <ccfreak2k> "I could die...but the other route takes soooo long..."
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00:34:56  <ccfreak2k> Hmm.
00:35:17  <ccfreak2k> Depending on the memory and software requrements, it may be theoretically possible to run openttd on the gamecube.
00:36:19  <Rubidium> I see no reason why it wouldn't work
00:36:49  <SmatZ> it is able to run linux
00:36:59  <SmatZ> so there is some crosscompiler for it
00:37:24  <SmatZ> 43 MB RAM not much
00:37:50  <Eddi|zuHause> should be fine
00:37:55  <Eddi|zuHause> except for huge maps
00:37:58  <ccfreak2k> Well, SDL has been ported to devkitppc, so removing any of the OS-specific bits should make it work.
00:38:10  <ccfreak2k> Then it just has to run in full-screen all the time.
00:38:28  <Rubidium> SmatZ: but it 'works' on the NDS which has 4 MB of RAM and a 67 MHz CPU
00:38:36  <ccfreak2k> I'd also have to adapt it to controller control.
00:38:45  <SmatZ> Rubidium: very true :)
00:38:56  <Rubidium> a Gamecube has a whopping 486 MHz CPU and almost eleven times as much memory
00:39:15  <ccfreak2k> Rubidium, PPC even, so it's probably closer to a 600MHz Intel chip.
00:39:27  <Rubidium> ccfreak2k: NDS is ARM
00:39:33  <ccfreak2k> Gamecube is PPC.
00:39:40  <Rubidium> that I know
00:39:51  <Rubidium> but comparing to Intel is totally stupid
00:40:24  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: smatz * r19000 /trunk/src/fileio.cpp: -Cleanup: remove redundant check
00:40:30  <ccfreak2k> Ok.
00:40:33  <PeterT> 1000 revisions to go
00:41:29  <Rubidium> (or you want to have a factor 2 difference; netburst's IPC vs core's IPC
00:41:31  <ccfreak2k> The painful part is autotools. ./configure will fail when trying to look for sdl-config.
00:41:53  <SmatZ> ccfreak2k: OTTD doesn't use any auto*
00:41:55  <Rubidium> ./configure --with-sdl=/path/to/sdl-conig
00:42:04  <ccfreak2k> There is no sdl-config.
00:42:16  <ccfreak2k> It's just headers + static lib.
00:42:31  <Rubidium> then write a script that fakes sdl-config
00:42:37  <Rubidium> that shouldn't be that hard
00:42:44  <ccfreak2k> SmatZ, I really should just shut up and look at the source package then.
00:44:54  <SmatZ> ccfreak2k: hack config.lib ;)
00:44:54  <SmatZ> or create your own sdl-config
00:44:54  <SmatZ> returning what OTTD expects :-p
00:44:54  <SmatZ> easy with a shell script...
00:44:54  * SmatZ got lagged for a while
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00:46:33  <SmatZ> ccfreak2k: no need to be that expressive ;)
00:48:23  <SmatZ> ccfreak2k: what's this?
00:48:44  <devilsadvocate> is ttrs a patch in openttd or should i install ttrs3 assuming i want it? the screenshots look a lot like my buildings...
00:48:45  <SmatZ> I guess one has to know the software used to create it
00:49:13  <devilsadvocate> my as in the ones i see in my game
00:49:30  <ccfreak2k> SmatZ, I made a hard drive in Garry's Mod.
00:49:34  <ccfreak2k> And that's it there.
00:49:48  <SmatZ> devilsadvocate: just download ttrs newgrf via the "Content download" system
00:50:00  <Eddi|zuHause> devilsadvocate: check the "NewGRF Settings" window
00:50:24  <devilsadvocate> SmatZ, i dont see ttrs in the content download list. thats why im not sure if i should or not
00:50:43  <Eddi|zuHause> not all grfs are in the content downloader
00:50:52  <devilsadvocate> oh
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00:51:11  <SmatZ> oh, right
00:51:47  <ccfreak2k> SmatZ, the idea is that the laser intersects with the disc at some point, and the code figures out where on the prop the laser hit and reads from or writes to that part of a giant table.
00:51:54  <Eddi|zuHause> a larger number of grfs can be found on
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00:53:19  <Eddi|zuHause> you might also want to check
00:53:57  <SmatZ> ccfreak2k: reading about Garry's Mod makes me want to (re)play half-life (2)
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00:59:44  <SmatZ> ccfreak2k: looks interesting :) reminds me of "OTTD digital counters" :)
01:00:02  <SmatZ> like
01:00:15  <PeterT> damn backups
01:00:25  <Eoin> The nightly database backup is currently running
01:00:26  <SmatZ> hehe
01:00:27  <Eoin> Bad timing
01:00:34  <SmatZ> [01:59:58] <SmatZ>
01:00:38  <SmatZ> you had two seconds!
01:01:06  <ccfreak2k> Is there any particular reason why the forum can't be read-only during backup time, other than the fact that a 10 minute window might not even be worth it?
01:01:28  <SmatZ> ask orudge
01:01:51  <SmatZ> but I guess this is easier solution than patching phpbb and zillion places
01:01:53  <Eoin> as it would backup slower
01:01:57  <Eoin> If its read only
01:02:00  <Eoin> people are still reading
01:02:03  <Eoin> means backup is slower
01:02:04  <Eoin> i guess
01:03:21  <PeterT> SmatZ: Wrong. [20:00:04] <SmatZ> like
01:03:48  <Eoin> No PeterT
01:03:51  <Eoin> thats american lag
01:04:48  <PeterT> you're american lag!
01:05:30  <Rubidium> Eoin: reading the forum does database modifications too, e.g. the read count and such
01:05:55  <Eoin> aye
01:06:01  <Eoin> so basically easier to just not let anyone read
01:10:17  <SmatZ> don't (all) databases allow on-line backup?
01:10:17  <Eddi|zuHause> only if they're transactional
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01:10:17  <Eoin> its back u
01:10:18  <SmatZ> true
01:10:37  <Rubidium> and getting a proper backup of a database that is being modified is far from trivial
01:10:46  <SmatZ> I have no clue what database background is used at tt-forums
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01:15:25  <Eoin>
01:15:30  <Eoin> someone made an OpenTTD ALU
01:15:31  <Eoin> my god
01:15:37  <Eddi|zuHause> yay... a court decided that legal documents sent by email and blocked by a spamfilter is legally considered "delivered"
01:15:55  <Eoin> lol
01:16:32  <Eddi|zuHause> oh the logic gates... those were fun times
01:16:38  <SmatZ> hehe
01:16:53  <Eoin> self regulating networks
01:16:54  <Eoin> nice
01:16:59  <SmatZ> [02:15:33] <Eddi|zuHause> yay... a court decided that legal documents sent by email and blocked by a spamfilter is legally considered "delivered" <== we can expect similiar case here as well
01:17:23  <ccfreak2k> Eoin, and he mowed down two towns to make it.
01:17:47  <Eoin> lol
01:17:54  <SmatZ> though... one has to login often enough to his "data storage" to see new messages
01:17:59  <SmatZ> so it's different case
01:19:52  <Eddi|zuHause> ccfreak2k: it's totally realistic to destroy entire towns/villages
01:20:23  <Eoin> if people can do that via trains
01:20:28  <Eoin> cant we get it actually IN the game
01:20:32  <Eddi|zuHause> for example for open coal mines or hydro-power
01:21:11  <ccfreak2k> Or to create a digital logic circuit?
01:21:27  <Eoin> im sure china will one day
01:21:43  <SmatZ> hehe
01:22:19  <ccfreak2k> I hate makefiles.
01:22:20  <ccfreak2k> >:(
01:22:20  <Eddi|zuHause> a logic circuit the size of a large city...
01:23:23  <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause: it wasn't unrealistic ~75 years ago
01:23:50  <Eddi|zuHause> SmatZ: a large warehouse, maybe
01:25:34  <Eddi|zuHause> "Leibnitz discovered the binary system during a conversation with his mother"
01:25:45  <Eddi|zuHause> "yes... no... no... yes... no..."
01:25:48  <SmatZ> hehehe
01:25:55  <SmatZ> exactly my thoughts :)
01:26:48  <SmatZ> "ENIAC contained 17,468 vacuum tubes, 7,200 crystal diodes, 1,500 relays, 70,000 resistors, 10,000 capacitors and around 5 million hand-soldered joints."
01:26:57  <SmatZ> I would expect far less
01:27:17  <PeterT> off to go reinstall Ubuntu
01:27:19  <PeterT> bye all
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01:27:37  <SmatZ> given 4004 consists of 2300 transistors
01:27:39  <Eddi|zuHause> Ubuntu really is the new windows...
01:27:46  <Eddi|zuHause> now it even needs reinstalls...
01:28:00  <Eoin> lol
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01:28:19  <SmatZ> hehe
01:28:23  <Eddi|zuHause> SmatZ: the transistor was a huge technology jump
01:28:35  <SmatZ> "The short ton is a unit of weight equal to 2,000 pounds (907.18474 kg).[1]  In the United States it is often called simply ton[1]  without distinguishing it from the metric ton (tonne, 1,000 kilograms) or the long ton (2,240 pounds/1,016.0469088 kilograms); rather, the other two are specifically noted. There are, however, some U.S. applications for which unspecified tons normally means long tons (for example, Navy ships)[2]  or metric tons (world grain
01:28:37  <SmatZ> production figures)."
01:28:41  <SmatZ> metric system ftw...
01:29:16  <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause: yeah, but how is transistor different from vacuum tubes?
01:30:24  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not exactly sure how a vacuum tube works
01:31:03  <ccfreak2k> Vacuum tubes are also much larger.
01:31:11  <Eddi|zuHause> plus, back then they might not have had as universal instruction sets
01:31:34  <Eddi|zuHause> or ENIAC had more capabilities than a 4004
01:31:47  <ccfreak2k> I'm guessing the latter.
01:31:53  <SmatZ>
01:31:54  <Eddi|zuHause> or did you mean a 4040?
01:31:58  <ccfreak2k> ENIAC was also application-specific.
01:32:10  <ccfreak2k> Unlike the 4004, which was more than likely general-purpose.
01:32:20  <ccfreak2k> And low-end too.
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01:33:25  <SmatZ> well, both are turing-complete :)
01:33:36  <SmatZ> but yes, I understand your arguments
01:34:15  <SmatZ> modern CPUs are also turing-complete, and have tens of thousands transistors
01:34:20  <SmatZ> just to be faster
01:34:32  <thingwath> 4004 isn't a complete computer, while ENIAC was at least supposed to be one.
01:35:06  <SmatZ> right, it's incomparable :)
01:36:30  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, you don't have memory or peripherial devices on the 4004
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01:55:17  <ccfreak2k> sdl_sound looks like it compiles into a couple of different libs.
01:55:31  <ccfreak2k> Or it links them together into libSDL_sound.a.
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01:56:19  * SmatZ doesn't know
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01:59:17  <ccfreak2k> sdl-config appears to be just a shell script.
01:59:21  <ccfreak2k> That makes things easy.
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02:00:50  <SmatZ>  /usr/bin/sdl-config: POSIX shell script text executable
02:00:51  <SmatZ> right :)
02:01:16  <SmatZ> and quite short
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03:30:48  <ccfreak2k> Bonus: my GameCube has a network adapter, so if openttd somehow magically works, I can go online with it.
03:30:53  <ccfreak2k> As long as I don't run out of memory, heh.
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08:59:17  <planetmaker> good morning
08:59:21  <Noldo> morning
08:59:27  <TrueBrain> morning
09:00:49  <ccfreak2k> Do any of you know who maintains the PSP code?
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09:06:51  <blathijs> ccfreak2k: Dunno, it's not listed in readme.txt
09:06:59  <ccfreak2k> Also, I got ./configure to work with only adding GC as an "os".
09:07:26  <TrueBrain> PSP is not official supported blathijs, so that is most likely why ;)
09:07:56  <blathijs> TrueBrain: Hmm, there is a target defined for it in configure IIRC
09:08:01  <ccfreak2k> There is.
09:08:04  <TrueBrain> I did some ground work for it
09:08:13  <blathijs> and/or I saw references to it in trunk
09:08:13  <ccfreak2k> There's also at least a few #if defined PSP.
09:08:16  <TrueBrain> but it never really got anywhere :)
09:08:24  <TrueBrain> (as I don't own a PSP :p)
09:08:40  <blathijs> Hmm, that's a lousy way to port an app :-P
09:08:51  <TrueBrain> yup .. the person who was doing that, never gave any feedback ..
09:09:16  <ccfreak2k> I'm the lucky owner of a fully-modded gamecube, so I can actually write and test.
09:09:19  <dih> i assume ccfreak2k has a psp
09:09:25  <ccfreak2k> I don't have a PSP.
09:09:28  <dih> ah
09:09:30  <dih> shame :-P
09:09:32  <ccfreak2k> But I figured its code would be a good starting point.
09:09:39  <dih> :-D
09:09:57  <TrueBrain> there is enough custom code to get you on the way for any port :)
09:10:22  <ccfreak2k> Well, the GC would be an "embedded" target, as everything is statically-linked, etc.
09:10:23  <roboboy> ccfreak2k: can a normal gamecube play homebrew or does it need a chip?
09:10:42  <TrueBrain> ccfreak2k: static linking is done for Windows too :p
09:10:43  <ccfreak2k> roboboy, it can play homebrew without one, but you need to coerce the gamecube into getting it to run first.
09:11:05  <ccfreak2k> Which uh...I guess would require some kind of chip actually.
09:11:09  <TrueBrain> but if there is libSDL for the GC, the rest should be easy :)
09:11:10  <ccfreak2k> Or wait, it doesn't.
09:11:21  <TrueBrain> and howdie dih
09:11:27  <roboboy> ok as I am not a fan of chipping consoles
09:11:27  <ccfreak2k> One trick is to use a mile-long list of Pro Action Replay codes to boot the SD loader code.
09:11:41  <TrueBrain> hahahahaha :)
09:11:43  <ccfreak2k> So if you have a Pro Action Replay and a SD card adapter, you're set.
09:11:50  <roboboy> unless you can somehow exploit code in a game
09:11:55  <roboboy> hehe
09:12:09  <ccfreak2k> TrueBrain, someone did port libSDL and friends to Wii, and I took the liberty of backporting them to gamecube, which is why I have my eyes set on openttd.
09:12:25  <TrueBrain> then a C compiler should do the rest
09:12:26  <ccfreak2k> roboboy, yes, the infamous "Twilight Hack" did that on the Wii.
09:13:09  <ccfreak2k> I wasn't averse to chipping my gamecube, though. It makes homebrew and the like -so- much easier.
09:14:25  <ccfreak2k> If I can get my hands on a USB Gecko, I can even use gdb to debug programs on it.
09:14:35  <peter1138> hah
09:14:45  <peter1138> "who uses the user 'backup'"
09:14:52  <peter1138> well, let's see, i wonder...
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09:16:14  <roboboy> I think ive read about that
09:16:14  <roboboy> I geuse since I have a wii it wouldn't be too bad
09:16:53  <peter1138> guess
09:16:56  <ccfreak2k> The Wii is more comprehensive with the hacks, mostly because A) Nintendo stepped up security on it and B) it's an arms race since the Wii doesn't have indelible firmware.
09:17:56  <ccfreak2k> On the GC, you just have to use PAR codes to get it to start running what you want.
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09:19:05  <blathijs> What's Pro Action Replay?
09:19:40  <ccfreak2k> The proper name for what used to be GameShark.
09:20:47  <blathijs> Is it like the Game Genie?
09:21:05  <ccfreak2k> It doesn't use the same code format, but the idea is the same.
09:21:38  <blathijs> And it has a custom mode to read and write arbitrary memory addresses or something?
09:22:13  <ccfreak2k> No, that's its primary feature.
09:22:24  <ccfreak2k> Action Replays (without Pro) can only exchange game saves.
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09:22:54  <blathijs> Feels a bit like programming a game on a C64 then, I bet :-)
09:22:54  <ccfreak2k> It doesn't read addresses, though. Only writes.
09:23:15  <ccfreak2k> Before the game starts, you pick addresses and what values you want to have. When the game starts, the "trainer" runs in the background and makes sure it keeps those values.
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09:23:31  <ccfreak2k> Some similar tricks were used on Atari for example, for different purposes.
09:23:35  <bartavelle> yo
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09:29:31  <ccfreak2k> Am I a bad person for hacking up the makefile instead of ./configure?
09:30:38  <TrueBrain> if you want others to use your code: yes
09:30:44  <TrueBrain> as Makefile is overwritten every time you run ./configure :)
09:30:57  <ccfreak2k> It seems like configure is trying to outsmart me.
09:31:11  <ccfreak2k> It thinks its building to a win32 target.
09:31:30  <TrueBrain> there is a configure switch to overrule that
09:33:01  <ccfreak2k> --host?
09:33:24  <blathijs> --build I think
09:33:26  <TrueBrain> ...
09:33:30  <TrueBrain> ./configure --help :)
09:33:54  <blathijs> :-)
09:33:58  <TrueBrain> blathijs: so you are wrong ;)
09:34:01  <ccfreak2k> The only two in --help I can see are host and os, both of which are set to distinctly non-win32 targets (powerpc-eabi and UNIX repsectively).
09:34:51  <TrueBrain> blathijs: build is always the target you are building ON, and host is always the target you are building FOR :)
09:35:15  <blathijs> Eh? Isn't that the other way around?
09:35:29  <TrueBrain>   --build=BUILD                  configure for building on BUILD [guessed]
09:35:30  <TrueBrain>   --host=HOST                    cross-compile to build programs to run
09:35:31  <TrueBrain>                                  on HOST [BUILD]
09:35:49  <TrueBrain> you have your build machine, and you have your host machine .. first is where you build it on, latter is where it will run on
09:36:00  <blathijs> E.g, If I use my amd64 box to compile a program for arm, then --host=amd64 and --build=arm, right?
09:36:06  <TrueBrain> you also have the confusion host / target pair in some configures, there the host is your current system, and target where you build for
09:36:25  <blathijs> Yes, that's the common setup
09:36:31  <TrueBrain> no, that is the uncommon :p
09:36:34  <blathijs> Eh?
09:36:36  <blathijs> Uh...
09:37:02  <TrueBrain> but to answer your former question: no: --build=amd64, --host=arm
09:37:41  <blathijs> Isn't the idea of --host to say "If you need to compile a program that needs to be run during compilation (e.g., strgen), use a compiler for this platform"
09:37:45  <TrueBrain> blathijs: Gentoo had a lot of trouble with both systems. It turned out that build/host is most used (and makes most sense), and host/target is lesser used
09:37:57  <TrueBrain> blathijs: that is your BUILD machine
09:38:01  <TrueBrain> on which you are building
09:38:03  <blathijs> Blub
09:38:05  <blathijs> :-)
09:38:10  <TrueBrain> and that is exactly the confusion :) build/host vs host/target
09:38:13  <ccfreak2k> Anyway, my issue is that CONFIGURE_FILES for example is using win32 paths, whereas devkitpro uses UNIX paths and has a very particular setup.
09:38:22  <peter1138> heh
09:38:47  <blathijs> TrueBrain: Bah, you are right. I'm confusing host/target.
09:39:03  <TrueBrain> blathijs: it is very normal to confuse both .. who ever invented host/target should be shot :)
09:39:07  <TrueBrain> it is very ambigious :)
09:39:13  <blathijs> Though I think host/target makes more sense (even better would have been build/target, but that's never used I guess)
09:39:29  <TrueBrain> yes, build/target would have made the most sense :)
09:39:44  <TrueBrain> either way, GNU for a long time promoted host/target, but now only talks about build/host
09:40:06  <ccfreak2k> Doesn't build/host/target also have to do with the so-called Canadian cross?
09:40:36  <TrueBrain> ccfreak2k: the fact you can use google, doesn't make you wise ;)
09:40:53  <ccfreak2k> So help channels don't want me to be wise?
09:41:02  <TrueBrain> Canadian Cross is a fancy way of saying cross-compiling
09:41:27  <ccfreak2k> Don't you mean "building a compiler thrice to move it from one arch to another"?
09:41:28  <TrueBrain> either way, for a few years, 'canadian cross' only talks about build/host :)
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09:42:57  <TrueBrain> either way: confusing as hell :)
09:43:29  <ccfreak2k> I don't disagree ther.e
09:45:01  <ccfreak2k> Also, building apps for gc/wii involves and extra step: converting the elf into a dol.
09:45:18  <ccfreak2k> How exactly would I ./configure that in?
09:45:33  <TrueBrain> not, really :) As it is a bit insane ;)
09:45:45  <TrueBrain> but I guess a: --run-dol-at-the-end :p
09:45:52  <blathijs> That would probably require an addition to the makefile?
09:45:59  <TrueBrain> we have 'strip' and 'lipo' too as final actions, so :)
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09:46:27  <TrueBrain> just don't forget you should never edit Makefile, but always or
09:46:44  <blathijs> And trigger that by the OS / build being GC?
09:46:58  <TrueBrain> OS=GC would make most sense :)
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09:47:21  <ccfreak2k> Yep, made an entry for OS=GC already.
09:47:27  <ccfreak2k> Haven't done anything, though.
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09:51:32  <TrueBrain> time to follow some classes ... ccfreak2k: 1 tip, don;t waste too much time on fixing it nicely, just first see/check if it works at all ;)
09:51:37  <ccfreak2k> Bleh, what's the makefile syntax for "if OS == GC"
09:51:49  <TrueBrain> there is enough around to figure that out :)
09:52:20  <TrueBrain> look for MINGW in, for example
09:52:29  <TrueBrain> or PSP
09:52:31  <TrueBrain> or DOS
09:55:09  <ccfreak2k> The MINGW path fix is one thing I'll probably want.
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10:06:36  <ccfreak2k> Is only run when Makefile is?
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10:10:11  <blathijs> ccfreak2k: Eh?
10:10:32  <blathijs> ccfreak2k: configure generates Makefile from and Makefile.src from
10:10:41  <blathijs> And Makefile includes Makefile.src
10:10:43  <blathijs> IIRC
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10:11:17  <ccfreak2k> Right, but the MINGW thing isn't happening at configure, so I want to know if it actually happens when make is run.
10:12:43  <Rubidium> ends up in objs/[release|debug]/ or even objs/[target]/[release|debug] for OSX universal binaries
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10:13:33  <Rubidium> and gets 'called' (as in $MAKE -C objs/../Makefile) instead of included
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10:14:32  <blathijs> Rubidium: Ah, thanks for the correction :-)
10:17:57  <ccfreak2k> I think I'm starting to get it now.
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10:18:50  <Terkhen> good morning
10:27:46  <peter1138>
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10:58:02  <roboboy> hello
10:58:19  <Forked> ello
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12:29:13  <Belugas> hooula
12:29:50  <Forked> meep meep
12:30:41  <fjb> Moin
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13:35:33  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19001 /trunk/src/network/ (core/tcp_http.h network_content.cpp): -Fix: some GCC compile warnings
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13:58:27  <Shapeshifter> How can I prevent trains from stopping in a station where they should not load or unload anything? The station is not on their orders list
13:58:59  <Noldo> make the next order non-stop
13:59:09  <rane> (you can make that to happen automatically)
14:00:02  <Shapeshifter> okay thanks
14:00:25  <Noldo>
14:01:28  <Noldo> hmm, the Via order is only in trunk?
14:02:15  <Rubidium> no
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14:18:24  <Eddi|zuHause> it's in 1.0.0-beta as well ;)
14:19:23  <Rubidium> via orders are also in 0.7
14:19:25  <Eddi|zuHause> i can't really check right now, if that feature was pre-0.7 or post-0.7
14:19:55  <Rubidium> and actually also before 0.7 (given the right settings)
14:20:07  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah
14:20:31  <Eddi|zuHause> i do remember now that i made a screenshot "of 0.7" with go-via orders for road vehicles
14:21:33  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19002 /trunk/src/window.cpp: -Fix [FS#1140]: [OSX] Problems with scrolling touchpad (Peter Thorson). I can/have not test(ed) it, it cannot break non OSX builds.
14:22:37  <Eddi|zuHause> :)
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14:25:39  <__ln__> i have not tested the #1140 patch, but at least it matches my own conclusion that the fix doesn't go into an OSX-specific file but a common one.
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14:26:20  <Rubidium> __ln__: still, the fix is for code that is ONLY used for the Mac port
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14:29:25  <Eddi|zuHause> somehow, __ln__ always looks like a python magical function to me...
14:30:13  <__ln__> Rubidium: yeah, until the human input methods on PCs advance to the level they've been on Macs for years. :)
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14:32:25  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19003 /trunk/src/video/cocoa/ (log message trimmed)
14:32:25  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Fix [FS#3194]: [OSX] OS X 10.5+ does not (always?) handle 8bpp graphics in a
14:32:25  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: suitable manner. This is actually not a fix but a nasty work around; you can
14:32:25  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: still easily trigger the bug/issue by overriding the 'default' blitter choice
14:32:25  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: (Brad Oliver). I can/have not test(ed) (including compiling) this fix.
14:32:25  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: Bjarni once suggested that 8bpp works for him on 10.5, so apparantly not all
14:32:27  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: 10.5+ does not handle 8bpp graphics. Nevertheless, it seemed that for some
14:33:38  <Eddi|zuHause> EParseMisplacedParenthesis
14:34:17  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... no... i just missed it
14:37:23  <Rubidium> yay for committing untested patches!
14:37:42  <Rubidium> and/or hacky workarounds
14:37:46  <TrueBrain> Rubidium: well, at least you know they can compile :)
14:37:59  <TrueBrain> but if the commits message gets longer than the commit ...
14:40:13  <Rubidium> anyhow, r19003 is just plain stupid
14:41:10  <TrueBrain> OSX is
14:41:18  <Rubidium> it's like: some people of the age 18-25 get drunk before driving, we don't know which beforehand, so just ban all of those from driving
14:41:34  <Rubidium> but I guess it's common in society
14:42:02  <Rubidium> it's always the few trouble makers that screw the fun for the rest
14:43:29  <__ln__> does this FS#2782 (hopelessly outdated) bug track all OSX-tagged bugs automatically, or is it done manually?
14:44:12  <Rubidium> e.g. how many money is wasted on useless 'anti-terrorism' stuff? The only thing the 'anti-terrorism' stuff does is feeding the fear
14:44:18  <Rubidium> __ln__: it's manual
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14:46:26  <__ln__> Rubidium: ok; i'd like to point out that #3447 (SDL Port is unuseable) does not really belong to that list then, as the Mac port has been independent of SDL for years. and requires extra effort to compile with SDL.
14:47:47  <Rubidium> __ln__: it's there to prevent people from suggesting we use SDL instead of cocoa et al over and over again
14:47:57  <Eddi|zuHause> but not being able to use SDL is one of the reasons why the OSX port needs so much special attention
14:49:30  <__ln__> Rubidium: i see. and i agree the #3447 as such is a valid bug report.
14:55:07  <Rubidium> hmm, I would have expected that there were people clicking on the 3447 bug report in 2782, but none in the last two days (besides myself to test whether my grep was correct)
14:55:35  <Rubidium> then why have they stopped suggesting to use SDL all of the sudden that 3447 was added as dependency for 2782?
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14:58:13  <planetmaker> <Rubidium> anyhow, r19003 is just plain stupid <-- why... do you commit it then?
14:59:22  <Eddi|zuHause> i read somewhere that the r19003 effect depends on the graphics driver
14:59:47  <Eddi|zuHause> older graphics drivers work, while newer ones don't
15:00:11  <Rubidium> planetmaker: because apparantly OS X does not tell (reliably) whether 8bpp is supported or not
15:01:30  <Rubidium> and because the OS X community has definitely shown that they don't really care about a supported OpenTTD
15:02:26  <peter1138> they think "it compiles" is the same as "it is bug free"
15:02:42  <peter1138> (well, bug free may be a big strong :))
15:04:10  <peter1138> 14:37 <@Rubidium> yay for committing untested patches!
15:04:10  <peter1138> 14:37 <@Rubidium> and/or hacky workarounds
15:04:10  <peter1138> 14:37 <@Rubidium> yay for committing untested patches!
15:04:10  <peter1138> 14:37 <@Rubidium> and/or hacky workarounds
15:04:16  <peter1138> it's just like rigs of rods ;)
15:04:25  <peter1138> also, i have a stupid middle button problem :(
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15:06:30  <Rubidium> peter1138: but is that for the officially supported part, or for some unsupported crappy development-wise OS?
15:06:54  <peter1138> hmm?
15:07:06  <peter1138> generally the whole bit with ror, heh
15:07:25  <peter1138> "whole bit" does not compute. never mind.
15:09:36  <Rubidium> although I must say I've committed some *BSD related patches too without actually having tested it on a *BSD system. However, the proposed patches all seemed to be 'in line' with the manpages of the functions we were using.
15:09:49  <planetmaker> <Rubidium> and because the OS X community has definitely shown that they don't really care about a supported OpenTTD <-- honestly... it reads like "Let's see whether I can break it with a couple of patches provided by people who had a look for one or two days at the source and then call them idiots for trying"
15:10:25  <peter1138> planetmaker, no it's "apparently these work, but we can't tell"
15:10:38  <planetmaker> peter1138, exactly
15:11:07  <peter1138> no, that's different to what you wrote
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15:11:34  <Rubidium> planetmaker: then what do you expect from us? Just plainly dropping OS X?
15:12:01  <Rubidium> and I haven't called them idiots
15:12:27  <Rubidium> the really idiotic solutions I've already rejected
15:12:58  <Rubidium> and r19003 shouldn't be needed, but heh... we just work around a bug in the OS X API
15:13:18  <Rubidium> (or Bjarni made a mess of his 'detect 8bpp' code)
15:13:31  <Rubidium> but I can't tell that
15:13:49  <Rubidium> and none of the people who looked at it said so
15:14:17  <Rubidium> and also SDL has similar problems, which might mean that it's a more generic issue than just OpenTTD's issue
15:14:37  <Rubidium> i.e. it tips the 'who-to-blame' scale towards blaming Apple
15:15:15  <Rubidium> (and with Apple I also mean the drivers needed for OS X, even when written by external parties)
15:15:55  * Rubidium wonders whether OS X has some sort of driver sanity test, like Microsoft or Linux has
15:16:27  <Rubidium> in case of MS the driver certification and in case of Linux the (many) reviews before it gets into the kernel
15:16:32  <glx> don't MAC use ATI GPU ?
15:16:42  <planetmaker> glx, not always.
15:17:03  <glx> may explain why it works for some system and not for other :)
15:17:18  <glx> ATI and working driver is a long story
15:19:02  <planetmaker> <-- e.g. current iMacs come with either nVidia or ATI
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15:27:37  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19004 /trunk/src/table/station_land.h: -Codechange: silence ICC warning that 'integer conversion resulted in a change of sign'
15:28:28  <lennard> pfft, silence, not fix? :P
15:28:54  <Eddi|zuHause> the mafia way of silencing? :p
15:30:18  <peter1138> i guess it is a fix
15:30:25  <peter1138> change 1 to 1U
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15:42:53  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19005 /trunk/src/ (table/sprites.h viewport.cpp):
15:42:53  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Codechange: make animated cursors have a bit set instead of using negative
15:42:53  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: numbers that are passed as uints, then cast again to be compared as ints before
15:42:53  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: being inverted to be actually used. Also fixes a couple of 'integer conversion
15:42:53  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: resulted in truncation' warnings ICC spewed.
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16:37:37  <rait_> hmm, shift+f doesn't open rail building window on the first try
16:37:54  <rait_> f7 that is
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16:40:51  <Eddi|zuHause> operating system? other programs interfering?
16:41:06  <Rubidium> it doesn't work for me either
16:41:35  <rait> it seems that when you click on the button it doesn't work also
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16:42:10  <Rubidium> the default railtype code's broken
16:42:26  <rait> seems so
16:42:54  <rait> after you have opened it once, it works ok
16:43:08  <rait> until you load a new game ...
16:45:20  <Eddi|zuHause> smells like peter1138's doing ;)
16:48:49  <peter1138> hmm
16:48:57  <peter1138> well it smelled anyway
16:49:02  <peter1138> i guess i just made it smell more
16:49:42  <rait> works in r18951, doesn't in r18973
16:51:59  <Rubidium> <- solves the issue, though breaks old settings
16:53:05  <TrueBrain> lennard: done with all the maintainance? :)
16:55:43  <Shapeshifter> how can I get towns to accept goods?
16:55:56  *** guru3_ is now known as guru3
16:56:10  <rait> let them grow
16:56:11  <Yexo> certain houses accept goods, so grow the town
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16:57:04  <Shapeshifter> I see, thanks.
16:57:34  * guru3 waves
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17:01:48  <lennard> TrueBrain: yup
17:01:55  <lennard> and i think its not crashing, either
17:02:01  <lennard> it used to do that, after maintenance
17:02:10  <TrueBrain> lol :)
17:02:20  <TrueBrain> k, good :) I put it back in the mirror rotation :)
17:03:40  <Shapeshifter> "Any town where the centre square is in the desert requires food and water to grow"
17:03:45  <Shapeshifter> what is meant by "center square"?
17:03:57  <Belugas> where the town name is located
17:04:05  <Belugas> the sign, whatever
17:04:05  <Shapeshifter> okay
17:04:14  <Eddi|zuHause> the town center is usually a road
17:06:55  <Yexo> it's always a road unless you (or an AI company) removes the road
17:09:03  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19006 /trunk/src/ (48 files in 3 dirs):
17:09:03  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Fix (r18970): default rail type determination failed causing 'A'/SHIFT-F4 not
17:09:03  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: to work the first time. As rail types can now be anything the explicit options
17:09:03  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: for the different railtypes have been removed, leaving the most used rail type
17:09:03  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: and first/last available rail types.
17:11:35  <Ammler> if it isn't a road, the town can't build own roads, right?
17:12:03  <Ammler> so this is a possibility to enable/disable it for individual towns...
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17:15:39  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19007 /trunk/ (7 files in 5 dirs): -Prepare: 1.0.0-beta4
17:16:05  <planetmaker> ho :-)
17:16:17  <planetmaker> a new test version at the horizon
17:16:30  <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: what if road layout is 3x3 and the road layouts are synched between cities?
17:16:40  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i was kinda expecting that :p
17:16:50  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: then the town centers are synced too
17:16:54  <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause: then the center of the town is at the grid too
17:16:59  <Eddi|zuHause> aha
17:17:01  <Eddi|zuHause> interesting
17:17:42  <planetmaker> and for towns founded manually? Are they then adjusted to the 3x3 grid?
17:17:48  <Yexo> no
17:18:56  <planetmaker> k, thx :-)
17:21:14  <Shapeshifter> mhhh. so I have a couple of water trucks between a water plant and a city with a water tower, and the trucks drive around and there's loads of water and the service is good, but the trucks don't earn a single penny, and I don't get the subsidy, even though I've been shipping water for months now
17:22:31  <Shapeshifter>
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17:23:39  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19008 /tags/1.0.0-beta4/ (6 files in 5 dirs): -Release: 1.0.0-beta4
17:23:44  <Shapeshifter> why don't I earn anything? And I guess I don't get the subsidy because I don't earn anything...
17:23:58  <Yexo> can you upload the savegame?
17:24:37  <Shapeshifter> Yexo: here you go
17:25:44  <Shapeshifter> mhh, I'll be right back
17:25:58  <Yexo> Shapeshifter: when I load that savegame you already have the subsidy and you get paid as soon as the vehicle has finished unloading
17:27:03  <Rubidium> maybe it's a bug in 1.0.0-beta1
17:27:22  <Rubidium> Shapeshifter: I'd say, wait 30-40 minutes and download+install 1.0.0-beta4
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17:41:18  <Terkhen> hello
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17:45:24  <Shapeshifter> Yexo: huh, odd. okay
17:47:55  *** bartavelle is now known as bartaway
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18:08:08  * andythenorth is having fun with this neob thing
18:10:07  <welshdragon> neob?
18:10:22  <welshdragon> he's a cnut
18:10:26  <Terkhen> fun with neob posts? that's new :P
18:10:57  <andythenorth>
18:11:09  <andythenorth> to be fair, he has been trolled by mb quite extensively
18:14:18  <Ammler> <-- empty?
18:14:28  <Ammler> and without cz. I get a 404
18:14:51  <Rubidium> hmm, the script is still broken? :(
18:15:01  <Ammler> that is from the openttd-download
18:16:02  <Ammler> somehow the target url looks strange with that "openttd/binaries"
18:16:34  *** TheMask96 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:16:54  <Ammler> for the bundles it works
18:18:02  <Rubidium> well, that's the url at the mirror
18:19:14  <Ammler> oh, the changelog _is_ empty?
18:19:30  <Rubidium> yeah, that's a bug in the changelog generation script
18:19:44  <Rubidium> I thought I fixed it last time, but apparantly I didn't
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18:21:53  <planetmaker> andythenorth: one can not say you didn't try with neob ;-)
18:21:57  <planetmaker> I gave up already
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18:37:13  <TrueBrain> Ammler: and paths on different mirrors are different .. so of course removing 'cz' fails
18:37:38  <Ammler> yeah, that I realized...
18:38:29  *** frosch123 [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:38:32  <Rubidium> anyhow, the changelog should be fixed now
18:38:39  <Ammler> your mirror-things seems to work awesome :-)
18:41:02  <Ammler> Feature: Content mirroring support (r18994) <-- so the bananas urls are now fix, we can assume?
18:41:12  <TrueBrain> nope
18:41:38  <TrueBrain> nowhere in the client are any hard http links, except on (which is
18:41:50  <TrueBrain> not till BaNaNaS is rewritten, I can tell you if they are 'fixed' or not
18:42:28  <Ammler> yeah, but if you change that url, you need a new release, so...
18:42:42  <TrueBrain> nope
18:42:58  <TrueBrain> there is only one fixed address in the client
18:43:00  <TrueBrain> one
18:43:11  <TrueBrain> not generated or what ever
18:43:20  <Rubidium> if we change the url of, then yes we need a new release. If any of the mirrors changes urls nothing whatsoever needs to be done client side
18:43:21  <TrueBrain> we can make the links what ever we like, no change on the client side will ever be required
18:43:29  <Ammler> so the master server does send the url?
18:43:39  <TrueBrain> the master server has nothing to do with this
18:43:55  <TrueBrain> maybe you should ask questions, instead of stating assumptions
18:44:53  <Ammler> ok, question: how do I link to a grf download I uploaded to bananas
18:45:00  <TrueBrain> you do not
18:45:22  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r19009 /trunk/src/lang/ (turkish.txt unfinished/basque.txt):
18:45:22  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:22  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: basque - 5 changes by Thadah
18:45:22  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: turkish - 62 changes by niw3
18:45:23  <TrueBrain> for now there is no valid way to do that, as it has been for the last few weeks
18:47:47  <Ammler> yes, you removed old again...
18:48:00  <TrueBrain> Ammler: not until there are http links on BaNaNaS itself, it is set what the URLs will be
18:48:04  <TrueBrain> 'removed old'? 'again'?
18:49:35  <Ammler> the directory with the old releases is empty now.
18:49:46  <TrueBrain> it always has been (or at least should have been)
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18:49:58  <TrueBrain> for a small 12 hours they were synced, but that was removed shortly afterwards
18:50:07  <TrueBrain> (as old BaNaNaS files are not for public download)
18:50:27  <TrueBrain> so I take offense on the word 'again'
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18:50:34  <Ammler> ok :-)
18:50:39  <TrueBrain> that is not okay
18:50:46  <_Ben_> hi
18:50:50  <TrueBrain> howdie _Ben_
18:50:53  <Ammler> then I hit those 12 hours last time I tried ;-)
18:51:17  <TrueBrain> I still take offense that you say 'again'. Like we remove it all the time, put it back to annoy you, and remove it again
18:51:26  <Ammler> but authors explict allow you to distribute also old releases.
18:51:38  <TrueBrain> I suggest you tune down the way of communication, do a tiny bit less suggestive speaking, and ask a bit more instead of assuming. It makes our jobs much better and easier
18:51:45  <Rubidium> Ammler: it's in the details
18:51:45  <TrueBrain> I suggest you read our ToS
18:52:09  <_Ben_> I'm completly baffled as to logging onto the wiki.  I've treid every password, and allowing all cookies.  I've then treid merging accounts but it says that neither the account exsists (which I am currently logged in with!), and nore does the wiki account.
18:52:11  <Ammler> TrueBrain: I just mean, you could distribute those.
18:52:19  <TrueBrain> @kban Ammler 60 READ OUR TOS
18:52:20  *** mode/#openttd [+b *!] by DorpsGek
18:52:20  *** Ammler was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [READ OUR TOS]
18:52:22  <TrueBrain> I hate repeating myself
18:52:39  <TrueBrain> _Ben_: sounds bad :p PM me your account NAMES (no passwords please :p)
18:53:11  <_Ben_> TrueBrain, Ok thanks
18:53:22  *** mode/#openttd [-b *!] by DorpsGek
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18:54:14  <TrueBrain> I wonder if Ammler knows how he speaks ... saying what should be done, instead of asking why something is done like it is ... kind of annoying
18:55:15  <Eddi|zuHause> he's from switzerland, these people are weird due to centuries of inbreeding...
18:55:42  <Eddi|zuHause> it's almost as bad as people from iceland :p
18:56:10  * __ln__ heard some SchwyzerdÃŒtsch spoken yesterday
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19:01:17  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that's one of the weird effects :p
19:01:54  * jonty-comp wonders if it's a coincidence that he's been to Switzerland and Iceland, and not many other places
19:02:13  <jonty-comp> other than France, but that was only to go to Disneyland, which has no French people in it anyway
19:03:22  <Eddi|zuHause> the only thing i have seen of iceland is the airport
19:03:35  <jonty-comp> heh
19:03:47  <jonty-comp> I got stuck in that airport for 16 hours -.-
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19:17:47  <thomas001> hi..what is the state of cargo destinations in the current openttd 1.0 beta?
19:18:04  <TrueBrain> not there? :)
19:18:16  <thomas001> hmm :)
19:18:55  <thomas001> will it be there till 1.0 final? ^^
19:19:12  <thomas001> at least its on the 1.0 roadmap
19:19:22  *** helb [~helb@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:19:42  <Yexo> no
19:20:31  <Yexo> the roadmap wiki page ays very clearly " Major features that could possibly be in 1.0.0 " => "could possible", so not "will definitely"
19:22:20  <thomas001> sure,thats why i ask about its state ;)
19:26:22  <TrueBrain> maybe for 1.1 .. if someone steps up to really finish it / make it stable
19:28:00  <Rubidium> it has been on the roadmap for many versions, so don't get your hopes up
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19:38:55  <Shapeshifter> So, I keep getting offerings over shipping goods to some city (got around 1000 inhabitants), but if I want to build a lorry station, or click on the main train station (which is quite central), I don't see anything that accepts goods. if I do this, goods will just pile at the stations
19:39:51  <Shapeshifter> will they start accepting goods if I ship them?
19:41:30  <Shapeshifter> also, does it matter how near a station is to something in terms of how much of the total share of goods from that place it gets to be shipped?
19:41:52  <Alberth> open a station build window, select a station and move the station around over the city. If the window says it accepts goods, building at that place will accept goods
19:42:06  <Shapeshifter> I get the feeling that my train station, which is a bit further away, get's very little food from the plant, while some lorry stations nearby are overfilled with food.
19:42:18  <Shapeshifter> Alberth: I did exactly that, but there's no place that accepts goods
19:42:42  <Xaroth> grow the city
19:42:46  <Alberth> in that case, you cannot build a station that will accept goods :)
19:42:52  <Xaroth> make it happy, transport people to it
19:43:02  <Xaroth> it'll grow eventually, at which point you can transport goods to it
19:43:06  <Shapeshifter> yeah but why do I get offerings for subsidies for goods to that place, then?
19:43:34  <Shapeshifter> why would anyone subsidy something they don't need? is this an attempt to simulate real world governments? xD
19:43:39  <Belugas> cuase the system does not know you cannot
19:43:42  <Alberth> about distance: no it does not matter, only rating does
19:43:51  <Belugas> it sends the offering to all who wants to hear
19:43:53  <Shapeshifter> Alberth: okay thanks.
19:44:16  <Shapeshifter> Belugas: well it hasn't got something to do with _me_, but with the place they want the goods to be sent for subsidies
19:44:23  <Shapeshifter> but that place doesn't accept goods.
19:45:21  <Belugas> who knows, by the time you finish your lines, maybe it would?
19:45:35  <Shapeshifter> mh.
19:45:44  <Alberth> especially if you inject some money/buildings into the city
19:46:29  <Alberth> but usually, I don't care much about subsidized transport :)
19:49:21  <Belugas> me neither
19:49:29  <Belugas> if it is granted, it's a bonus
19:49:31  <Belugas> of course
19:49:32  <Belugas> but...
19:49:41  <Belugas> don't run for it at all cost
19:49:50  <Belugas> and... remember... it's a gameuh
19:52:28  <andythenorth> hi hi
19:53:47  * Belugas is thinking of that guy who suggested in forums that small airports should not allow big planes to land, since.. it's not realistic
19:57:10  * Alberth considers adding vertical runways... it's not realistic
19:57:33  <Alberth> hi andythenorth
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19:59:35  <Shapeshifter> Nah, but this is broken. If I take a big train station to be built, and swipe it over the city, and two adjacent spots "goods" pop up in the list. obviously I can't build a train station directly above the city. But if I take a lorry station, and go to the same place, there's no "goods" to be found
19:59:37  <Eddi|zuHause> <Shapeshifter> why would anyone subsidy something they don't need? <-- that's entirely the point of subsidies... forcing to open a market where the natural ("free") market does not exist
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19:59:57  <Shapeshifter> Eddi|zuHause: mh guess you're right.
20:00:17  <Shapeshifter> so I can't shipt the goods using feeders
20:00:23  *** PeterT_ [] has quit []
20:00:32  <Shapeshifter> because no lorry station wants to accept goods :|
20:00:33  <Bluelight> What is a lorry station?
20:00:38  <Eddi|zuHause> you typically need 3 office buildings in a city to accept goods
20:00:57  <Shapeshifter> Eddi|zuHause: ah. I have them. but they're far apart.
20:01:02  <Shapeshifter> too far for a lorry station
20:01:10  <Eddi|zuHause> then build a bigger station
20:01:14  *** PeterT [] has joined #openttd
20:01:33  <Shapeshifter> I can't build a bigger lorry station
20:01:33  <Bluelight> Where are you playing?
20:01:36  <Shapeshifter> Bluelight: a truck station
20:01:41  <Bluelight> Ohh..
20:01:45  <Eddi|zuHause> you can join two stations together
20:01:49  <Eddi|zuHause> with ctrl+click
20:01:59  <Eddi|zuHause> they will cover all buildings inbetween them
20:02:05  <Shapeshifter> Eddi|zuHause: ohh
20:02:09  * Shapeshifter tries
20:02:53  <Bluelight> Shapeshifter: where do you play? On what server..
20:03:25  <Bluelight> I wanna join, lol
20:03:35  <Shapeshifter> Eddi|zuHause: yay that worked.
20:03:39  <Shapeshifter> Bluelight: I play offline ;)
20:03:47  <Bluelight> Ohh.. lol
20:03:54  <Shapeshifter> I just started the other day
20:04:12  <Shapeshifter> Eddi|zuHause: I can't join existing stations?
20:04:16  <Bluelight> Cool! Hope you enjoy that game then.. :)
20:04:30  <Bluelight> It's fun on a non-competiotion server..
20:04:36  <Belugas> [14:57] * Alberth considers adding vertical runways... it's not realistic  <--  Highway to Hell !!!!
20:04:45  <Bluelight> competition*
20:05:22  <Bluelight> You don't have to be good to play online and have fun..
20:06:32  <Shapeshifter> Bluelight: I'm enyoing it ;)
20:07:17  <Bluelight> Well I'm about to play some on Luukland normal servwer I guess..
20:07:27  <Bluelight> server*
20:07:29  <planetmaker> servers or sewers? :D
20:07:47  <Bluelight> sewers.. lol
20:08:14  <Bluelight> Nice to see you here planetmaker
20:08:21  <planetmaker> same same :-)
20:08:54  <Bluelight> My stove smells burnt garlic butter..
20:09:17  <planetmaker> if not burnt too much, it'll be delicious :-)
20:10:44  *** valhallasw [] has quit [Quit: studeren. echt. ECHT!]
20:10:45  <Eddi|zuHause> Shapeshifter: no, only new stations to an existing one
20:11:15  <Eoin> night night
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20:13:50  <Belugas> bye
20:13:51  <Belugas> goen
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20:33:49  <TrueBrain> I official hate MediaWiki
20:33:51  <TrueBrain> just so you know
20:34:05  <jonty-comp> so, use tikiwiki instead
20:34:26  <TrueBrain> is there a convertor?
20:35:00  <Rubidium> TrueBrain: I think you will be shot dead, very thoroughly dead, if you convert it to tikiwiki
20:35:05  <jonty-comp> n.b. that wasn't an official suggestion, if the openttd wiki changed to tikiwiki I think I might commit suicide
20:35:09  <TrueBrain> Rubidium: cool :)
20:35:18  <aber> noooo, you killed kenny and broke mac compatibility. (Ihr ****eine).
20:35:24  <TrueBrain> 1-0 for aber
20:35:25  <PeterT> TrueBrain: Why do you hate MediaWiki?
20:35:31  <TrueBrain> jonty-comp: really? Hmmmmm ........
20:35:47  <jonty-comp> wait, that wasn't an official statement either
20:35:51  <TrueBrain> PeterT: because it is a piece of crap! Using _ as \s, but not always, and it completely fucks up LDAP authentication
20:36:08  <jonty-comp> I would agree that mediawiki is a mildly annoying piece of crap
20:36:09  <PeterT> LDAP?
20:36:11  <TrueBrain> jonty-comp: nah, I like you too much ;)
20:36:18  <Rubidium> aber: *WE* broke Mac compatability?
20:36:20  <PeterT> TikiWiki looks very ugly
20:36:23  <jonty-comp> but on the open-source piece of crap scale, it's quite lot on the list
20:36:27  <jonty-comp> s/low/lot/
20:36:57  <TrueBrain> jonty-comp: yeah .. it is the best of the worst
20:38:05  <jonty-comp> I hear that phrase a lot in software :p
20:38:23  * jonty-comp tries to think of some software that is actually best of the best
20:38:45  <aber>
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20:40:02  <TrueBrain> jonty-comp: MSVC, as IDE
20:40:03  <TrueBrain> Zend, as IDE
20:40:09  <TrueBrain> OpenTTD, as game
20:40:42  <jonty-comp> MSVC might fit I suppose
20:40:53  <Rubidium> aber: oh lol... so much for quality of the patches that Mac OS X users provide
20:41:04  <jonty-comp> but the rest of VS doesn't :p
20:41:19  <TrueBrain> jonty-comp: completely agree
20:41:24  <TrueBrain> that is why I added: as IDE :)
20:41:49  <jonty-comp> can you do Windows Forms in MSVC? I've never quite wanted to try
20:42:09  <jonty-comp> in fact, I shall do the leet thing and have a look right now
20:42:11  <TrueBrain> I don't have a Windows installation :p
20:42:18  <Rubidium> aber: got no idea how to fix that compile error
20:42:21  <jonty-comp> except I have the 2010 beta, which is probably different
20:42:48  <Rubidium> well, I've got an idea but that entails buying a Mac, which I refuse to do
20:43:14  <jonty-comp> aha, it does do Windows Forms
20:43:18  <jonty-comp> it has gone down in my estimation
20:43:31  <Rubidium> jonty-comp: good luck with MSVC 2010 compiling OpenTTD ;)
20:43:47  <jonty-comp> I use msys for all that anyway!
20:44:08  * Shapeshifter is waiting for beta4 to hit the repo.
20:44:20  <Rubidium> Shapeshifter: what repo?
20:44:29  <Shapeshifter> Rubidium: archlinux ;) they're usually very fast
20:45:09  <Shapeshifter> mh. or I could just install from svn.
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20:46:23  <welshdragon> Shapeshifter: prod Sacro
20:46:29  <welshdragon> he builds for Arch
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20:47:06  <jonty-comp> welshdragon: you do realise that in saying "prod Sacro", you've probably already prodded him yourself
20:47:23  <welshdragon> meh
20:47:32  <Shapeshifter> welshdragon: thanks. I wrote to him in #archlinux on freenode.
20:47:45  <jonty-comp> lol freenode
20:47:47  <welshdragon> Shapeshifter: he's a lazy 'tard
20:47:54  <welshdragon> and needs prodding a few times
20:48:00  <Shapeshifter> mh. but svn is fine I guess.
20:48:01  <welshdragon> (he is also gar IRL)
20:48:06  <welshdragon> *gay
20:49:51  <Shapeshifter> because I really think there's a bug in this version I have here, where everytime a new office building gets built, it switches "no longer accepts goods".
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20:50:07  <Shapeshifter> driving me nuts. everytime, I have to build a new lorry station and send trucks there
20:50:10  <jonty-comp> welshdragon: how discriminatory
20:50:33  <welshdragon> jonty-comp: 's true though
20:50:38  <Alberth> buildings don't accept/produce cargo when they are being constructed
20:50:50  <welshdragon> did you not see how camp he was at the York meet?
20:50:55  * jonty-comp makes fun of welshdragon being welsh
20:51:02  <jonty-comp> I saw how welsh you were at the meet!
20:51:13  <welshdragon> s' true
20:51:30  <welshdragon> Born_Acorn is more Welsh than me though!
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20:51:42  <Shapeshifter> Alberth: no, but everytime one gets built, the existing lorry station which is accepting goods switches goods off
20:51:49  <Shapeshifter> I build a new one, and it's fine again
20:52:59  <Sacro> can someone update the topic
20:53:08  <Sacro> i've been informed that beta4 is out
21:03:18  <rait> would if could ...
21:04:26  <Rubidium> Sacro: I reckon someone can update the topic
21:05:18  <Sacro> Rubidium: do it then :P
21:06:05  <Rubidium> too much effort
21:06:30  <Alberth> the problem is that someone is never here when you need him
21:07:32  <Rubidium> if only DorpsGek could automatically update the topic
21:07:49  <welshdragon> this is why a supybot wins
21:08:08  <Alberth> we still need someone to teach it :p
21:08:36  <blathijs> Rubidium: Ah, beta4 is already out? I thought you meant packaging beta4 when it got out, but you mean ASAP :-)
21:09:27  <TrueBrain> Rubidium: it could, if you program it :p
21:09:39  <TrueBrain> welshdragon: well, I don't see how it does ...
21:09:50  <Rubidium> blathijs: when I asked/suggested it to you beta4 wasn't released yet
21:09:51  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: terkhen * r19010 /trunk/src/station_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: Remove a now unneeded check at CmdBuildRailStation.
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21:11:28  <Rubidium> TrueBrain: the bot is already fragile enough :)
21:11:35  <TrueBrain> Rubidium: very true :)
21:13:01  *** Rubidium changed the topic of #openttd to: 0.7.5, 1.0.0-beta4 | Website: * (BaNaNaS: bananas, translator: translator, server list: servers, nightly-builds: nightly, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | UTF-8 please | No Unauthorised Bots | English only
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21:14:16  <blathijs> Rubidium: Heh :-)
21:15:13  <Shapeshifter> can I copy over the configs from beta3 to beta4 overwriting everything?
21:15:37  <Shapeshifter> (I have both versions installed with different config folders in ~)
21:16:09  <Shapeshifter> nevermind
21:16:21  <TrueBrain> BaNaNaS filenames have changed; although it should not download the same file twice, just know the syntax has changed slightly :)
21:16:23  <Rubidium> blathijs: though I guess doing 0.7.5-2 first before 1.0.0-beta4 (in exp) might be better
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21:18:07  <blathijs> Rubidium: Yeah, I wanna upload 0.7.5-2 this week (I've asked jordi for a review. he's back from vacation)
21:18:10  <blathijs> anyway, I'm off
21:19:04  <Rubidium> ciao
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21:26:31  <andythenorth> out of interest, who maintains bananas?
21:26:38  <andythenorth> BaNaNaS /s
21:26:44  <TrueBrain> the crowd
21:26:57  <TrueBrain> (it is self maintaining)
21:27:10  <andythenorth> ace, I wish my code was self maintaining :P
21:27:19  <andythenorth> who maintains the code for BaNaNaS?
21:27:33  <TrueBrain> it is in SVN :)
21:28:10  * andythenorth sigh
21:28:23  <TrueBrain> and seen by the commit log, it is mostly me or Rubidium who touches the code
21:28:40  <andythenorth> now I actually have to use the mouse and go look somewhere in the repo I have checked out :o
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21:29:18  <planetmaker> andythenorth: with a 'usual' openttd checkout you don't checkout the webpage
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21:29:42  <andythenorth> I did something unusual....unintentionally mind
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21:33:14  <andythenorth> hmmm....django's kind of pleasantly self-explanatory
21:36:32  <andythenorth> TrueBrain: I'm guessing there's a sql query for number of downloads of a BaNaNaS item?  I can't find it in the repo?
21:36:50  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: we use Django
21:36:55  <TrueBrain> we don't do queries
21:36:56  <TrueBrain> it does it for us
21:37:16  <TrueBrain> bananas/ shows a field in File object called 'downloads
21:37:17  <Noldo> in Django queries do you
21:37:26  <TrueBrain> this contains the amount of downloads
21:37:34  <TrueBrain> mind you: increasing of the value is NOT done by the website
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21:37:38  <TrueBrain> it is inserted via various of other ways
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21:39:14  <andythenorth> TrueBrain: thanks.  (I'm used to Zope, which has a python object database).  I sort of assume everyone else is writing crazy sql :o  I guess I'm wrong :)
21:39:28  <TrueBrain> Django is nice :)
21:39:32  <TrueBrain> takes out the hard work completely :)
21:40:08  <aber> Who lost the "src/video/cocoa/macos.h" file?
21:41:22  <frosch123> it was inappropiate for apple; it did not start with an "i"
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21:44:13  <andythenorth> TrueBrain: I have read the source of, but am unsure....when 'updating' a grf, does BaNaNaS overwrite the old one, or keep multiple versions?
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21:45:13  <Rubidium> andythenorth: it keeps multiple versions, only the last will be shown in-game (by default), unless you know the 'id' and md5 checksum and request it by that
21:45:47  <andythenorth> so the  number of downloads for each version could in theory be calculated / shown?
21:45:55  <TrueBrain> it shows per version :)
21:45:58  <TrueBrain> upload a new, counter is at 0 :p
21:46:03  <TrueBrain> either way, sorry, got to go .. going out :)
21:46:05  <TrueBrain> bye!! :)
21:46:14  <Noldo> have fun
21:46:37  <andythenorth> bye
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21:48:54  * andythenorth wonders how to test a potential patch to BaNaNaS? (scratches head)
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21:49:48  <Rubidium> andythenorth: ask very nicely whether we want to patch the test environment?
21:50:22  <andythenorth> ok, so I should figure out the patch first :)
21:50:29  <aber> so, in "src/video/cocoa/" is a "#include "macos.h"", but there is no macos.h.
21:50:40  <andythenorth> I just want to see download counts for all versions of a grf, shouldn't be too hard?
21:50:57  <andythenorth> this would show in
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21:54:06  <Yexo> aber: r19003, part of the commit message is "I can/have not test(ed) (including compiling) this fix.", so that proves true
21:55:25  <Bluelight> It's weird, but sometimes I just can't get to play on Luuklands servers.. I lose connection all the time for long periods of time..
21:56:03  <aber> Can someone revert that "fix"? I don't know it calls some function inside some nonexistent file?
21:56:23  <Rubidium> aber: better come with a fix for the fix
21:56:27  <Yexo> aber: can you change the line to #include "../../os/macosx/macos.h"
21:56:41  <Yexo> see if that works
21:56:57  <aber> like "return false"
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22:04:46  <aber> if i would like to put the mac binary on my homepage, what else do i have to display? Source? Link?
22:05:26  <andythenorth> Rubidium: I've got a patched file for bananas (changes one html file)...what should I do?  Learn to diff?
22:07:07  <Rubidium> andythenorth: try svn diff
22:08:31  <planetmaker> aber: only publish what you get by using 'make bundle_dmg'
22:08:47  <planetmaker> (or make bundle)
22:08:52  <planetmaker> Then you have all required files
22:09:28  <Rubidium> though technically he has to 'release' the source too, especially because it's modified from what we released
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22:09:53  <andythenorth> Rubidium: got a diff, what should I do with it next? :)
22:10:43  <Rubidium> upload it somewhere so TrueBrain or I can take a look at it
22:12:20  <Yexo> aber: did changeing the include to #include "../../os/macosx/macos.h" help or what else did you change?
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22:13:48  <aber> One minute, i'm compiling. I did a revert. And at the moment i'm trying to change the include path...
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22:14:26  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19011 /trunk/src/ai/api/ai_changelog.hpp: -Update: AI changelog
22:14:28  <andythenorth> Rubidium: posted in the development forum
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22:15:24  <Shapeshifter> trains go into depots even if they're full of people, right?
22:15:38  <Shapeshifter> you just lose a little bit of rating because it takes a while
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22:16:22  <planetmaker> right... r19903 broke it. Yexo : yes, that's it:
22:17:17  <planetmaker> at least it compiles then for me.
22:17:53  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: yexo * r19012 /trunk/src/video/cocoa/ -Fix (r19003): macos.h is not in video/cocoa/ but in os/macosx/.
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22:19:14  <planetmaker> thx, Yexo :-)
22:19:21  <planetmaker> and have you all a good night
22:19:26  <Yexo> good night planetmaker
22:19:32  <Yexo> and thanks for testing it :)
22:19:35  <aber> i compiled that one too.
22:19:51  *** Guest798 is now known as PeterT
22:19:56  <planetmaker> I need a version with rail types anyway :-)
22:20:27  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19013 /extra/website/bananas/templates/bananas/manager.html: [Website] -Change: show number of downloads of each version in the manager's view (andythenorth)
22:20:48  <planetmaker> :-O Nice, andythenorth !
22:20:53  <Yexo> nice andythenorth :)
22:21:10  <PeterT> andythenorth: Cool feature! You actually patched that?
22:21:32  <Yexo> PeterT: yes, see the dev forum
22:21:43  <PeterT> wow, just posted?
22:21:56  <PeterT> nice job andythenorth!
22:22:02  <andythenorth> PeterT: hold your horse, it's three <td> tags :P
22:23:06  <andythenorth> and um...I write html and python all day some days
22:23:52  <PeterT> so this change, it's in effect immediately/
22:23:54  <PeterT> *?
22:24:05  * andythenorth wonders if django can execute code in html tags (like zope can)?  A total would be useful...
22:24:13  <Yexo> PeterT: yes
22:25:12  <blathijs> andythenorth: You can use template tags to do nifty stuff
22:25:43  <blathijs> andythenorth:
22:25:59  <andythenorth> thanks
22:26:42  <Rubidium> would be be at 7 million bananas downloads within 10 days?
22:27:04  <Prof_Frink> Ooook.
22:27:18  <andythenorth> oook indeed
22:27:32  <andythenorth> Prof_Frink: ever passed over blind yeo?
22:29:14  <blathijs> andythenorth: Not sure if there is a tag to do what you want, though
22:30:14  <andythenorth> I want to create a summary total of downloads for all versions of a given asset
22:30:52  <andythenorth> I don't know if it's best done in the view 'manager', or in the template?
22:31:13  <andythenorth>
22:31:34  <Rubidium> hmm, no don't think we'll be at 7 million bananas downloads in 10 days; recent averages seem to be dropping below 30k a day, so we're probably not going to make it
22:31:34  <andythenorth> I would think add it to the view, then render it in the template
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22:32:01  <andythenorth> too much code in html templates is frowned upon in my day job :|
22:32:33  <blathijs> andythenorth: I don't think django supports real code at all in the templates, so :-)
22:33:39  <andythenorth> hey ho, the counts in this page are probably rendered in the template
22:33:39  <andythenorth>
22:33:43  <peter1138> hm
22:34:02  <andythenorth> yup
22:34:03  <andythenorth>                       Industries (<span tal:replace="python:len(economies[economy_repeat]['industries'])"/>):
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22:38:58  <blathijs> andythenorth: That doesn't look like django? Also, a count and a sum are different things :-)
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22:39:26  <andythenorth> that's not django, that's Zope, with TAL templating.  TAL is available in Django I think, but is optional
22:39:35  <andythenorth> or so google leads me to believe
22:39:42  <andythenorth> Rubidium:
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22:40:05  <andythenorth> lines 7 and 9 - I think that will provide me with a total that I can render in html?
22:40:39  <andythenorth> line 10 sorry
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22:41:36  <Rubidium> yeah, possibly... but because that's code stuff I rather have that TB takes a look at it when you're done with the rest
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22:42:59  <andythenorth> ok, I'll post a diff when I'm done.  the html for that should be simple
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23:18:31  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: yexo * r19014 /trunk/ (6 files in 2 dirs): -Add: [NoAI] AIOrder::[G|S]etStopLocation to get/set the stop location of trains in a rail station
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23:29:20  <PeterT> hey zachanima!
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23:29:35  <zachanima> PeterT, oh, hello
23:29:43  <zachanima> long time since I have uttered a word in here
23:30:53  <PeterT> zachanima: I merged CargoDist and IS
23:31:06  <zachanima> very nice
23:31:15  <zachanima> and it works as intended?
23:31:55  <PeterT> the graphs, not really
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23:32:04  <PeterT> they don't show cargo delivered to shared stations
23:34:55  <Rubidium> cargodist and is working as intended? Not without some, quite big, changes to both patches so it (optionally) routes cargo via multiple companies
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23:40:23  <ccfreak2k> fatInitDefault() ? init = 1 : init = 0;
23:40:28  <ccfreak2k> Is this syntactically correct?
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23:40:53  <SmatZ> yes
23:41:01  <Rubidium> for what?
23:41:05  <ccfreak2k> For C.
23:42:06  <Rubidium> yeah, though I'd write it differently
23:47:03  <Shapeshifter> mh. this odd stuff is still happening. the city, now at 1700 people, will randomly stop accepting goods.
23:47:13  <Shapeshifter> a few months later it starts accepting them again
23:47:52  <Rubidium> then it's rebuilding a building that accepted goods bringing it under the threshold for accepting goods
23:48:35  <Shapeshifter> mh. problem is then the goods start piling up and when they accept goods again at a station, the goods that are already there sit around.
23:48:48  <Shapeshifter> and I have to drive in circles picking up the goods and dropping them again
23:49:02  <Rubidium> then don't force unload
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