Log for #openttd on 5th February 2010:
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00:15:55  <Terkhen> good night
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00:28:37  <PeterT> Yes, NekoMaster, make your own topic dedicated to builds for Linux, that way the OpenTTD Section will be *less* confusing
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00:33:28  <ccfreak2k> I was thinking of bumping the Wii topic if I get SDL off the ground.
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00:34:17  <PeterT> Why would you want to play OpenTTD on Wii anyway?
00:34:37  <ccfreak2k> Why would I want to play it on MorphOS?
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00:38:31  <Rubidium> ccfreak2k: to please tokai?
00:39:34  <PeterT> ccfreak2k: Because it's actually playable on MorphOS
00:39:45  <ccfreak2k> And soon it may be playable on the Wii. :)
00:39:51  <ccfreak2k> Or at least the gamecube. No Wii here.
00:39:54  <PeterT> With that dumb remote?
00:40:05  <PeterT> I don't support anything Nintendo
00:40:10  <PeterT> They hurt me badly
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00:40:35  <ccfreak2k> The Nintendo 64 was the last Nintendo console I bought new.
00:40:50  <ccfreak2k> My GameCube was from a friend who has a Wii so he didn't need it anymore.
00:40:59  <PeterT> Wii's suck
00:41:05  <PeterT> the games are pitiful
00:41:30  <PeterT> what is it called when you execute "svn add *.*"
00:41:39  <PeterT> is it "adding it to the repo"?
00:41:44  <PeterT> would that be correct to say/write?
00:44:10  <ccfreak2k> Commit?
00:44:33  <ccfreak2k> I only know checkout and commit. :|
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00:48:37  <PeterT> No, not commit
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00:49:20  <PeterT> it's just for when you added a file, for example foo.cpp, and you want that to be shown in and "svn diff > bar.diff", you would need to add it to the repo
00:49:25  <PeterT> so that it will show up
00:49:37  <PeterT> for now, it only "diffs" what is part of the repo
00:49:44  <ccfreak2k> I'm on win32 primarily, so TortoiseSVN does everything for me magically.
00:49:47  <PeterT> otherwise, you would have useless "*.orig" files
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00:59:16  <PeterT> </advertise>
00:59:46  <SmatZ> @seen yorick
00:59:46  <DorpsGek> SmatZ: I have not seen yorick.
01:00:29  <Bluelight> Night!
01:00:33  <PeterT> SmatZ: If he hasn't been in the past month or so, DorpsGek will not show it
01:00:36  <PeterT> night, Bluelight
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01:03:13  <ccfreak2k>
01:03:29  <PeterT> what about it, ccfreak2k
01:03:29  <ccfreak2k> Isn't there already a program for win32 that gets SVN + patches and compiles them for you in one click?
01:03:35  <PeterT> No, there isn't
01:05:18  <PeterT> which program would you be talking about? ccfreak2k?
01:05:23  <PeterT> perhaps MSVC is close to that
01:05:36  <PeterT> I mean, all you need to do is gather some libraries and compile
01:05:36  <PeterT> a
01:05:42  <ccfreak2k> It was a stand-alone thing. I recall it setting up mingw.
01:05:52  <PeterT> and tortoise svn can do the patching
01:10:02  <roboboy> there was a program for patching openttd and downloading source
01:10:21  <ccfreak2k> I knew it, I'm not crazy!
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01:12:44  <PeterT> No, you are still crazy
01:12:49  <PeterT> hehe, :-)
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01:29:58  <PeterT> I like this starting screen:
01:30:56  <ccfreak2k> Does New Game still go to the map setup screen?
01:31:10  <PeterT> yes
01:31:15  <PeterT> now, or then?
01:31:31  <ccfreak2k> In whatever that image version is.
01:31:56  <ccfreak2k> Oh, 2682
01:32:05  <ccfreak2k> Nevermind then. :x
01:32:07  <PeterT> I'm not sure, I just saw the screen and I liked it
01:32:38  <ccfreak2k> Well, sdl-wii appears to pass "testbitmap".
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01:38:21  <PeterT> the world ends when you can successfully divide by zero!
01:39:31  <Eddi|zuHause> i have seen many worlds where you could divide by zero
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01:40:43  <PeterT_> @calc 1/0
01:40:43  <DorpsGek> PeterT_: Error: float division
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01:41:01  <PeterT> See,
01:41:09  <PeterT> dorpsgek wanted the world not to end
01:43:07  <Eddi|zuHause> there's an entire maths around dividing by zero
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01:45:36  <PeterT> yes, yes
01:45:41  <PeterT> property of reciprocals and such
01:46:14  <PeterT> so that a*1/a=1
01:46:24  <PeterT> more like a*(1/a)=1
01:46:48  <roboboy> !part
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01:47:21  <SmatZ> iirc, similiar case is 0!
01:47:31  <SmatZ> sometimes it's better when it's 0, sometimes 1
01:47:50  <SmatZ> (so there are no special cases)
01:48:40  <Eddi|zuHause> see andöbius_transformation
01:50:44  <SmatZ> at least in C you don't +-inf
01:50:47  <SmatZ> *have
01:51:51  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that's why it gets useful ;)
01:52:21  <Eddi|zuHause> because there's no difference between 1/(+0) and 1/(-0)
01:52:43  <SmatZ> :)
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01:54:54  <Eddi|zuHause> the part where it gets interesting is that in this space, straight lines and circles are the same object ;)
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01:55:17  <Eddi|zuHause> straight lines are just circles that go through the infinity point
01:56:04  <SmatZ> hehe, yeah :)
01:56:07  <PeterT> 0/0=0
01:56:42  <PeterT> since it is like saying "0/0=? equals ?*0=0"
01:56:50  <PeterT> and 0 would satisfy that
01:56:56  <PeterT> Again, any number multiplied by 0 is 0 and so this time every number solves the equation instead of there being a single number which can be taken as the value of 0/0.
01:57:13  <Eddi|zuHause> PeterT: that equation is unlikely to hold...
01:57:44  <PeterT> I thought so :-p
01:58:14  <PeterT>
01:59:25  <ccfreak2k> Aha.
01:59:31  <ccfreak2k> testfile does not pass.
02:03:37  <Eddi|zuHause> PeterT: that page also references the riemann sphere
02:04:19  <Eddi|zuHause> "In the Riemann sphere, 1/0 = oo, but 0/0 is undefined, as is 0*oo"
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02:06:16  <PeterT> is positive infinity plus negative infinity == 0?
02:07:57  <SmatZ> infinity is not a number
02:09:01  <SmatZ> inf-inf is not defined
02:09:06  <SmatZ> you could then do:
02:09:09  <PeterT>
02:09:22  <SmatZ> 5 = 5 + inf - inf = (5 + inf) - inf = inf - inf = 0
02:09:26  <SmatZ> then wtf
02:09:58  <PeterT> [21:09:20] <SmatZ> then wtf
02:10:10  <SmatZ> similiar, 5 = 5 * inf / inf = (5 * inf) / inf = inf / inf = 1
02:10:12  <SmatZ> again, wtf
02:10:27  <SmatZ> don't do that :-p
02:10:36  <PeterT> "(5 * inf) / inf = inf / inf" <-- what?
02:10:43  <PeterT> where did the 5 go?
02:10:45  <ccfreak2k>
02:11:12  <SmatZ> 5 * inf is still inf, right?
02:11:14  <SmatZ> well...
02:11:16  <Yexo> I remember a similar one
02:11:26  <SmatZ> you can define operations with inf as you wish :-p
02:11:33  <Yexo> 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5 + 6 + .... = INF
02:11:39  <Yexo> 1 + 3 + 5 + ... = INF
02:11:45  <Yexo> 2 + 4 + 6 + ... = INF
02:12:03  <Yexo> 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5 + 6 + .... = (1 + 3 + 5 + ...) + (2 + 4 + 6 + ...)
02:12:12  <Yexo> INF = INF + INF -> INF = 0
02:12:27  <SmatZ> hehehe
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02:12:47  <PeterT> INF < INF
02:12:52  <PeterT> inf > inf
02:12:59  <PeterT> -inf < inf
02:13:00  <SmatZ> inf ?= inf
02:13:26  <PeterT> inf**2=info
02:13:28  <PeterT> *inf
02:14:10  <SmatZ> have a look how operations with inf are defined in ieee754, it's defined in a sensible way (iirc)
02:14:59  <ccfreak2k> +INF and -INF.
02:15:40  <PeterT> would the same thing apply to (1/0)-(1/0)=0?
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02:16:11  <SmatZ> simply said, you can't divide by zero
02:16:20  <SmatZ> stop thinking about it :-p
02:16:24  <TMS> Wish me luck, I'm reinstalling Windows now.
02:16:30  <SmatZ> TMS: enjoy
02:16:48  <SmatZ> you can use limits for that
02:17:19  <PeterT> nice, TMS
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02:17:43  <SmatZ> like... lim (x->0) (1/x - 1/x) = lim(x->0) (0/x)
02:17:56  <SmatZ> then... it differs for x->0+ and x->0-
02:18:04  <SmatZ> so it's either +inf or -inf
02:18:19  <SmatZ> but  lim x->0 is undefined
02:18:20  <PeterT> I don't know lim
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02:20:13  <Yexo> <SmatZ> like... lim (x->0) (1/x - 1/x) = lim(x->0) (0/x) <- I'm not seeing how that works
02:20:33  <Yexo> as long as x != 0 then (1/x - 1/x) = 0, so why use the limit at all?
02:22:32  <Eddi|zuHause> it's an example where lim(a+b) != lim(a) + lim(b)
02:23:40  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, 0/0, oo/oo, 0*oo, oo-oo are all the same thing, you can transform each one into the other
02:24:25  <Eddi|zuHause> so each one is undefined the same way...
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02:39:30  <PeterT> night all
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02:46:09  <ccfreak2k> Erm
02:47:51  <ccfreak2k> Is it reasonable for an SDL program to open a file in read-only mode and expect rwops->write to return 0 if it tried to write to it?
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03:35:50  <roboboy> bye
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05:45:06  <kd5pbo> So, OpenTTD keeps momentarily pausing on the first of every month.
05:45:23  <kd5pbo> I'm hosting a dedicated server, and have connected to that server (from another client).
05:45:29  <kd5pbo> I'm the only client.
05:45:47  <kd5pbo> Any idea what could be causing this?
05:46:02  <ccfreak2k> Autosave.
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05:47:52  <kd5pbo> It's set to autosave yearly, I think.
05:48:02  <kd5pbo> It's a lot like autosave, though.
05:49:26  <kd5pbo> Can I edit that variable while a game is in progress?
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05:51:33  <ccfreak2k> If you can, it'd be a console command.
06:00:17  <kd5pbo> Got it, I think.
06:00:24  <kd5pbo> setting gui.autosave 0
06:00:25  <kd5pbo> I think.
06:01:06  <kd5pbo> Uh, are there any known security holes in OpenTTD?
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06:02:09  <ccfreak2k> testblitspeed yields 119FPS.
06:02:21  <roboboy> hello
06:03:25  <kd5pbo> roboboy: hi.
06:03:29  <kd5pbo> ccfreak2k: ?
06:03:38  <ccfreak2k> kd5pbo, I'm running SDL tests on the gamecube.
06:03:45  <kd5pbo> Ah.
06:03:55  <ccfreak2k> With a 640x480 bmp input, it blits at 119 FPS.
06:03:55  <kd5pbo> How do you run OpenTTD on the gamecube?
06:04:02  <ccfreak2k> You don't...yet.
06:04:04  <kd5pbo> Also, what is blitting?
06:04:20  <kd5pbo> Has someone managed to put Linux on the gamecube?
06:04:22  <ccfreak2k>
06:04:29  <ccfreak2k> There's a GC linux yes.
06:05:38  <kd5pbo> Oh, cool.
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06:09:14  <ccfreak2k>
06:09:27  <ccfreak2k> Here's what it looks like before mounting the root partition.
06:11:05  <ccfreak2k>
06:11:09  <ccfreak2k> And here's the blit test.
06:11:30  <roboboy> hm I might look into getting one of those things to boot linux on my GC
06:11:50  <ccfreak2k> You'd definitely want a Wii then.
06:12:07  <kd5pbo> That having been said, what do you do with Linux on a Wii or Gamecube?
06:12:21  <ccfreak2k> Whatever you'd do on any other set top box.
06:12:45  <kd5pbo> Yeah, but how's the hardware of a wii?
06:13:13  <ccfreak2k> 2x that of a GameCube.
06:13:25  <ccfreak2k> Plus wireless controllers and USB support.
06:13:41  <kd5pbo> True.
06:13:46  <kd5pbo> I have a linux box.
06:13:49  <roboboy> could you theoretically run OpenTTD for linux on the GC if you booted linux
06:13:58  <kd5pbo> I haven't come up with anything to do with it yet.
06:14:04  <ccfreak2k> roboboy, you could, or you could cut out the middle man and port OpenTTD to GC.
06:14:13  <roboboy> of course
06:14:18  <kd5pbo> roboboy: I'd guess you could probably run a dedicated server without much problem.
06:14:19  <ccfreak2k> That's what I'm aiming for.
06:14:27  <roboboy> which would be better and more efficient
06:14:28  <kd5pbo> ccfreak2k: How would you distribute it?
06:14:44  <ccfreak2k> Probably as a binary.
06:14:48  <ccfreak2k> And a patch of course.
06:15:16  <kd5pbo> You could make it wiiware.
06:15:20  <kd5pbo> That would be cool.
06:15:28  <kd5pbo> Also would help keep the openttd site funded.
06:15:43  <ccfreak2k> I don't have a Wii, so I couldn't even if I wanted to.
06:16:11  <kd5pbo> Oh.
06:16:13  <kd5pbo> Bummer.
06:16:23  <kd5pbo> The wiimote would work really well for input.
06:16:30  <ccfreak2k> Yeah probably.
06:16:45  <ccfreak2k> Use the D-pad or nunchuck stick to scroll, one of the buttons for a mouse click.
06:17:42  <ccfreak2k> One of these days I'll figure out where Vector is supposed to be defined so I can fix the gl2gx wrapper. That would allow OpenGL code to be ported.
06:17:57  <kd5pbo> Vector?
06:18:03  <kd5pbo> Also, what's gx?
06:18:36  <ccfreak2k> GX is the graphics subsystem for the GameCube and Wii. It's sort of similar to OpenGL, but not quite.
06:18:42  <kd5pbo> Oh.
06:19:11  <kd5pbo> Unrelated question:  Is there any way to influence in what directions cities grow?
06:19:25  <ccfreak2k> Buy land in the direction you don't want them to grow?
06:19:34  <kd5pbo> If I build a bunch of stations on one end of town and none on the other, will the town grow that way?
06:19:54  <ccfreak2k> AFAIK, they grow radially and equal in all directions.,
06:19:59  <kd5pbo> Rats.
06:20:01  <kd5pbo> Thanks.
06:22:20  <kd5pbo> We'll see how blocking the town works.
06:22:30  <kd5pbo> I've it set to build roads in a 3x3 grid.
06:22:39  <kd5pbo> So, I blocked every fourth square.
06:23:43  <ccfreak2k> I would just make a solid wall perpendicular to the direction you want to inhibit.
06:24:07  <kd5pbo> I would, but I don't have that much cashflow yet.
06:24:19  <ccfreak2k> If you can fit it, you could try making bridges over the blocks that you're taking.
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06:24:24  <ccfreak2k> Or tunnels.
06:24:34  <kd5pbo> Why not just buy them?
06:24:39  <kd5pbo> Would bridges be cheaper?
06:24:48  <ccfreak2k> Beats me.
06:24:51  <ccfreak2k> However you want to do it.
06:25:04  <kd5pbo> Well, we'll see if blocking the roads works.
06:25:05  <ccfreak2k> You can also just skip that if you don't expect any of your trucks to take said bridges anyway.
06:25:13  <kd5pbo> Not likely, no.
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06:25:51  <roboboy> do GC/Wii/DS share anything in common?
06:26:15  <roboboy> hardware wise and coding wise?
06:26:21  <ccfreak2k> GameCube and Wii are very closely related in hardware.
06:26:35  <kd5pbo> I can't imagine the SDK hasn't changed, though.
06:26:41  <roboboy> but not DS?
06:26:41  <ccfreak2k> For example, it's speculated that the CPUs are -identical-, with the Wii CPU being a die shrink.
06:26:48  <kd5pbo> Do you have a copy of the GC SDK?
06:26:52  <ccfreak2k> The Nintendo DS is closer to the GBA in hardware.
06:27:12  <ccfreak2k> I'm not at liberty to discuss if I do or don't have the Nintendo Dolphin SDK.
06:27:24  <ccfreak2k> I CAN, however, say I have devkitPPC, which is the defacto homebrew toolkit.
06:27:56  <roboboy> I knew that. It is basically a suped up GBA with 2 (?) processors one for GBA games and one for DS games
06:28:28  <ccfreak2k> ARM and PPC are completely different, and about ten years ago, they had totally different markets.
06:29:34  <roboboy> ah yeah thats right GC is PPC and GB(A)/DS is ARM
06:29:59  <roboboy> have you looked at the DS port to see if there is anything of use in it for a GC port?
06:30:20  <ccfreak2k> Technically speaking, the CPU found in the GameCube is a mod of a mod of a PPC 750, which is a G3. I had one in my PowerMac.
06:30:55  <ccfreak2k> The DS port would be of limited use except to see how they handled an "embedded" situation/controller support.
06:31:10  <ccfreak2k> In those instances, it would be quite useful.
06:31:52  <ccfreak2k> Also, the original GameBoy and kin used Z80s under the hood, which IIRC shares a lot of its arch with the Intel 8080.
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06:33:19  <roboboy> I think I read that as well
06:38:48  <roboboy> grr its gone quiet in here
06:38:57  * roboboy ponders watching tv
06:40:42  <kd5pbo> roboboy: Play OpenTTD :)
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09:11:11  <SmatZ> [10:08:24] <Yexo> [03:20:13] <SmatZ> like... lim (x->0) (1/x - 1/x) = lim(x->0) (0/x) <- I'm not seeing how that works <== yeah, it was completely broken
09:11:36  <SmatZ> not that part, but the latter
09:11:51  <SmatZ> good thing I went to bed :-p
09:12:06  <SmatZ> my thinking was broken...
09:13:39  <Noldo> what was it about?
09:17:04  <SmatZ> [03:15:41] <PeterT> would the same thing apply to (1/0)-(1/0)=0?
09:17:46  <planetmaker> hehe. The limit lim (x->0) (1/x - 1/x) = 0, but 1/0 - 1/0 is and remains undefined
09:17:54  <SmatZ> of course with limits, it would be lim (x->0+) ( (1/0)-(1/0) )= ... = 0
09:18:05  <SmatZ>  lim (x->0-) ( (1/0)-(1/0) )= ... = 0
09:18:16  <SmatZ> so lim (x->0) ( (1/x)-(1/x) )=0
09:18:25  <SmatZ> errr... s:1/0:1/x:
09:18:51  <planetmaker> uhm... you must not write it that way. You must never write 0 in the denominator. It will remain undefined
09:19:05  <planetmaker> only valid expression is lim (x->0) 1/x = 0
09:19:20  <planetmaker> err.... oo
09:19:27  <SmatZ> :)
09:19:36  <planetmaker> and thus lim (x->0) (1/x - 1/x) = 0
09:20:36  <planetmaker> limits can be soooo much fun ;-)
09:21:02  <SmatZ> :)
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09:22:10  <SmatZ> [03:17:57] <SmatZ> then... it differs for x->0+ and x->0- <== this is not true, I don't know why I said that :-p
09:22:46  <planetmaker> hehe. Indeed in the shown case it shouldn't make a difference.
09:23:02  <planetmaker> but if x>0 by definition it helps to use a slightly modified formula:
09:23:35  <planetmaker> 1/(x+epsilon) with a tiny, but fixed and defined epsilon > 0. It avoids catastrophes with infinity
09:24:37  <jonty-comp> mmm, infinity
09:24:46  <planetmaker> but then it destroys logarithmic analysis - which can be bad, too
09:25:16  <planetmaker> alas... back to statistical analysis ;-)
09:25:27  * andythenorth has an idea for allowing industry tiles to be overbuilt by rail / road / objects / buildings.  Before I incur waste writing it up, is this simply impossible?
09:27:19  <SmatZ> ;-)
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09:35:01  <bartavelle> hello
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09:49:29  <Noldo> planetmaker, SmatZ: what is the context?
09:49:57  <Noldo> why are you playing with limits
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09:51:06  <Terkhen> good morning
10:02:39  <planetmaker> andythenorth, if you want a tile to be both, industry + rail: seems to me like near-impossible
10:02:55  <planetmaker> as both tile types on their own already use much of the map array.
10:03:25  <planetmaker> Noldo, I have no idea. I play with them for the joy of pure math
10:03:35  <planetmaker> and good morning Terkhen :-)
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10:11:03  <jonty-comp> ouf, I missed jQuery 1.4 being released
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10:47:19  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19015 /trunk/src/lang/vietnamese.txt: -Update: Vietnamese language settings
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11:05:59  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: something similar might be useful for road stations, e.g. for allowing certain parts of a tram station be filled with roads
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11:06:44  <Eddi|zuHause> the huge problem is map space, though
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11:51:08  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I'll write up my proposal later and see if it's rubbish or not
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11:51:32  <TrueBrain> first make BaNaNaS better :p
11:51:53  <andythenorth> TrueBrain: first I'll do some work work :)
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11:52:22  <TrueBrain> work work is boring
11:53:11  <jonty-comp> that's why you just pretend to do it
11:53:20  <Eddi|zuHause> it must be by definition, else it would be fun work
11:53:30  <jonty-comp> or spend ~60% of your time waiting for the computer, like I do
11:54:04  <jonty-comp> my boss offered to buy a new workstation that did things much faster, but I politely declined
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12:01:16  <SpComb^> jonty-comp: just de-prioritize all the important processes and run some idle load
12:01:40  <bartavelle> play DF
12:01:45  <bartavelle> should eat all your CPU alright
12:02:02  <bartavelle> ah wrong channel, yet useful advice
12:02:18  <SpComb^> dwarf fortress?
12:02:25  <bartavelle> yes
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13:22:06  <Eddi|zuHause> Feature request for railtypes: a custom icon in the station name for each railtype
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13:23:30  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: like / ?
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13:24:22  <Eddi|zuHause> no, in the stations, where the train/bus/plane/ship icons are
13:24:58  <Rubidium> oh, guess you're going to need to add heliport, tram etc too
13:25:02  <Eddi|zuHause> so you could have different symbol for electrified trains or monorails
13:25:30  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that should be possible to extend ;)
13:26:56  <peter1138> hm
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13:28:57  <Rubidium> I think that the difference between the different station icons would become really small, especially if you do the tram stuff too
13:29:30  <Rubidium> like, what's the difference between electrified and high speed electrified rail? Or rail with 10t axle limit vs 20t axle limit?
13:30:23  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: a newgrf can choose not to provide a custom icon, or to reuse one from another railtype?
13:31:02  <Eddi|zuHause> ever since the original TT it annoyed me that monorail stations have the same steam engine icon as normal rail
13:32:22  <Eddi|zuHause> <-- a proposed icon that i made a few years ago
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13:33:47  <Neon> join #recht
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13:34:01  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: but you need to differentiate between pax and cargo trams, right?
13:34:02  <Eddi|zuHause> /fail
13:34:27  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: i have never seen an icon for a cargo tram anywhere...
13:34:38  <peter1138> make one ;)
13:34:59  <Rubidium> also: how to handle the icons in the MP lobby?
13:35:58  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... interesting question
13:36:02  <Rubidium> cause they don't have the e.g. vacuum tube train graphics
13:36:13  <Rubidium> actually, they wouldn't even know what the different numbers would mean
13:37:58  <peter1138> does it matter?
13:38:02  <peter1138> they're still trains
13:38:20  <peter1138> win 22
13:38:23  <peter1138> fail 22 :s
13:43:30  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... does the icon above load for anybody?
13:43:52  <peter1138> yes
13:44:02  <Eddi|zuHause> then why doesn't it for me?
13:51:55  <__ln__> alternative tram icons:
13:52:26  <__ln__> (do they even differ, can't see)
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13:59:09  <peter1138> missing the shadow, pfft
14:00:26  <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: it still looks ugly...
14:00:45  <__ln__> thanks
14:01:15  <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: that's the entire reason why i made the above icon in the first placce
14:01:23  <Eddi|zuHause> -c
14:01:27  <__ln__> Eddi|zuHause: but we agree on the basic idea that tram stops should have an icon that distinguishes them from bus stops?
14:02:19  <Eddi|zuHause> yes. of course
14:02:39  <__ln__> great.
14:03:41  <__ln__> so... could that icon possibly be added to some standard grf file
14:04:13  * Rubidium points at the MP lobby problem
14:04:23  <Eddi|zuHause> the one that provides the tram rails, of course
14:04:44  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: if the data is not available at the MP lobby, then stick to the original icons?
14:05:30  <Rubidium> but then the meaning of the icons differ, which means inconsistency and the consistency guys filing bug reports and the like
14:05:30  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: not only would you need the railtype icons, you'd also have to gather and transfer the data for each railtype
14:06:11  <Eddi|zuHause> i think the MP lobby is not worth the effort
14:06:19  <Noldo> why is the MP lobby icon the same as the station icon in the first place?
14:07:31  <Rubidium> because the lobby uses it to list the number of different types of stations?
14:07:45  <Noldo> great
14:07:57  <Rubidium> so using the same typing as 'in-game' would be the most logical
14:08:14  <peter1138> i think that's just awkward myself
14:09:16  <peter1138> now, why does my snmp tftp upload script not work? :S
14:09:31  <SpComb^> TFTP over SNMP
14:09:37  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: it's perfectly logical that not all data is available from a game that you haven't joined yet
14:10:43  <Rubidium> true, though I don't fancy duplicating code for that
14:11:40  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: terkhen * r19016 /trunk/src/road_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#3591]: When removing roads, the player was also charged for removing the foundations.
14:13:51  <__ln__> for those who prefer specific enough pizza recipes:  (can replace EN with your favorite language code)
14:15:53  <Belugas> hi there
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14:52:28  <__ln__> hello B
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15:37:22  <Eddi|zuHause> german pizzas are generally rectangular, because they fit better in regular kitchen ovens that way
15:37:42  <Prof_Frink> How very efficient.
15:38:01  <Eddi|zuHause> that goes against the traditional german saying "Das Runde muß in das Eckige"
15:38:38  <Rubidium> actually, round pizzas work better in my oven
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15:40:00  <Eddi|zuHause> (it's a famous footballer quotation, "the round [thing] must go into the [rect-]angular [thing]")
15:42:04  <Rubidium> so the ROUND! pizza must go into the rectangular oven
15:42:19  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, it's a contradiction.
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15:48:59  <Eddi|zuHause> random thought: when the used bandwidth is calculated/billed on a monthly basis, one should release 1.0.0 in the middle of the month, so the subsequent spike splits over more than one month
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15:52:10  <TrueBrain> with themirrors in place, nothing to worry :)
15:52:18  <TrueBrain> BaNaNaS is mirrored nicely
15:52:38  <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: you said that same thing about the one-server-bandwidth only one year ago ;)
15:53:09  <TrueBrain> I am very sorry we are growing faster than expected
15:53:14  <TrueBrain> who would have guessed :p
15:54:00  <Eddi|zuHause> 640kB are enough for everybody ;)
15:54:46  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: either way, the amount of bandwidth we now produce is very little (relative against what we serve)
15:56:46  <TrueBrain> (still 20 GB/day, but okay :p)
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15:57:02  <TrueBrain> maybe for 2.0 we need another talk with Leaseweb :p
15:57:41  <SpComb^> would Leaseweb bill you for extra traffic?
15:57:53  <TrueBrain> no idea if they really would, no intensions of finding out :)
16:02:20  <peter1138> how often are the mirrors synced now that bananas is mirrored?
16:02:37  <TrueBrain> for now, BaNaNaS is pushed manual
16:02:40  <TrueBrain> the rest still on new release
16:02:57  <TrueBrain> when ever I have the time, BaNaNaS will be synced every new upload (with N minutes grey period), or something similar
16:03:27  <peter1138> *nod*
16:06:29  <TrueBrain> BaNaNaS doesn't have to be in sync (the http and our own protocol), so no real rush :)
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16:11:35  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19017 /trunk/src/ai/api/ai_order.hpp: -Doc: [NoAI] A parameter wasn't documented
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16:20:16  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19018 /trunk/ ( config.lib): -Change: [Makefile] Make test an alias for regression, distclean an alias for mrproper and update mrproper to really delete all generated files/directories.
16:20:50  <TrueBrain> what to eat tonight .. hmm ..
16:20:52  <TrueBrain> choices choices choices
16:21:42  <Rubidium> quiche!
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16:27:26  <Eddi|zuHause> "Hackepeter"
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16:29:41  <TrueBrain> PIZZA!!!
16:30:38  <Prof_Frink> Round or square?
16:30:42  <Alberth> Partying already?
16:30:47  <TrueBrain> ROUND!!
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16:39:19  <TrueBrain> only insane people make square pizzas
16:42:26  <Eddi|zuHause> i never met a sane person...
16:44:04  <TrueBrain> let me introduce myself
16:45:18  <TrueBrain> WHERE IS MY PIZZA!!
16:45:18  <Eddi|zuHause> HAHA, great joke :p
16:45:57  <TrueBrain> joke?
16:51:49  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe you need to dial 0800-PIZZA?
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16:53:59  <Alberth> then TB has starved before they deliver :)
16:55:26  <SmatZ> mmmm pizza
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17:03:57  <valhallasw> TrueBrain: ah, so that's where my pizza came from
17:05:29  <Ammler> does btw. support specific (older) nightlies?
17:06:11  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: smatz * r19019 /trunk/src/ (8 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: use HasExactlyOneBit() and HasAtMostOneBit() instead of CountBits() where possible
17:06:48  <Rubidium> Ammler: yes, just add /r<rev>
17:07:35  <Ammler> cool, thanks :-)
17:26:06  <TrueBrain> works for all urls there, stable, testing, branches, ...
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17:26:21  <TrueBrain> valhallasw: yeah, I ordered one for you, thought it would be a nice thing to do
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18:00:26  <peter1138> prrrffffft
18:02:12  <Belugas> quite
18:03:03  <peter1138> i mention callbacks and it all goes quiet
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18:19:16  <Belugas> :)
18:19:22  <Belugas> they'll "call back"
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18:29:03  <peter1138> heh
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18:29:09  <peter1138> i mean on the rail types thread :)
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18:31:15  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: shouldn't that callback be called also when a new engine gets available?
18:32:05  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, that also happens to be monthly
18:32:55  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: even when nobody accepts the prototype, the railtype gets available?
18:35:00  <peter1138> point
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18:44:11  <Belugas> some of the people of that thread (at least mb) do understand the mechanism.
18:44:20  <Belugas> maybe they just are thinking about it
18:45:36  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r19020 /trunk/src/lang/ (7 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
18:45:36  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:36  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: basque - 125 changes by Thadah
18:45:36  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: croatian - 8 changes by UnderwaterHesus
18:45:36  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: danish - 8 changes by beruic, silentStatic
18:45:37  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: portuguese - 2 changes by SupSuper
18:45:37  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: romanian - 6 changes by kkmic
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19:16:40  <Singaporekid> dopefish lives
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19:47:11  <Ammler> He, looks like OpenTTD has at least a intro sound. :-)
19:49:02  <Bluelight> Sid Meier's Railroads makes program errors.. :p
19:49:32  <Eddi|zuHause> why should that bother us?
19:50:21  <Bluelight> It's based on TTD.... :p
19:51:24  <Rubidium> like Windows is based on DOS, right?
19:51:38  <Bluelight> He he..
19:51:50  <Eddi|zuHause> more like windows is based on macos ;)
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19:52:30  <aber> like the dock in Windows 7?
19:53:18  <Bluelight> It's no fun playing OpenTTD when my server wont get publicly available..
19:53:27  <Eddi|zuHause> like "we took the mac interface and stripped it down just enough to not be accused for infringement" [statemant about windows 1.0]
19:53:45  <Bluelight> I can play on Luukland's but after a while I get disconnected.. and is unable to join..
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19:58:00  <aber> I put a mac binary on my homepage, if someone has some critic, just let me know...
19:58:56  <Eddi|zuHause> make sure the "COPYING" file is in the package, and you have a link to the source somewhere
19:59:06  * Rubidium wonders whether it does work on 10.3.9
20:00:12  <Rubidium> oh, only 64 bits Intel :)
20:01:03  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: given the name it looks like he might've used make bundle_dmg
20:04:09  <Rubidium> nevertheless, it's missing the sources or at least the patch of the first one is missing
20:06:12  *** phalax [~phalax@] has joined #openttd
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20:09:49  <andythenorth> hi hi
20:11:50  <Terkhen> hi andythenorth
20:15:01  <Bluelight> My computer is flickering.. Need a reboot.. :p
20:15:22  *** Bluelight [] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.7/20091221164558]]
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20:17:28  *** Zahl_ is now known as Zahl
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20:18:53  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19021 /trunk/src/saveload/saveload.cpp: -Fix [FS#3570]: don't NULL the pointers when saving the savegame on an error during saving; the savegame is still valid
20:19:46  <Bluelight> Back..
20:19:54  <Rubidium> ..fronT
20:20:24  *** Zahl_ [~Zahl@2002:4e34:4a84:1:90e9:5f17:99f9:95f6] has joined #openttd
20:22:15  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19022 /trunk/src/saveload/saveload.cpp: -Fix (r18770): loading old (0.1-ish) savegames failed
20:22:25  <peter1138> i have so many of them :s
20:23:03  <Belugas> sell them!  you'll have a new synth in no flat :D
20:23:22  <Belugas> "whooooo... savegames by a dev!  worth... 10 euros!"
20:23:26  <Belugas> each
20:23:39  *** woldemar [~world@] has quit [Quit: ですは滑皜じゃないです。 私は本気です。]
20:24:41  <peter1138> with luck, i've won the euromillions...
20:25:23  *** woldemar [~osaka@] has joined #openttd
20:26:14  <Belugas> pour un p'tit deux, fait un voeu
20:27:23  *** Zahl [~Zahl@2002:4e33:5bef:1:90e9:5f17:99f9:95f6] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:27:23  *** Zahl_ is now known as Zahl
20:31:44  <aber> I added a source package and a patch file.
20:36:15  <aber> This is gnu
20:41:21  <Bluelight> Ok, I've now tried uninstalling and installing OpenTTD again.. and I still can't get my server working correctly.. :p
20:41:34  <frosch123> hmm, did i already told that my ceo today send a 10 mib email to about 300 employees :p
20:42:42  <planetmaker> that may or may not for good reason. But probably not ;-)
20:42:48  *** Wizzleby [] has joined #openttd
20:44:22  <frosch123> shortly followed by a mail from the head admin, that the content was uploaded to the wiki, and asking everyone to delete the mail and not store anywhere backup-relevant :)
20:44:28  *** Zuu [] has joined #openttd
20:44:59  <Eddi|zuHause> what's a veou?
20:45:08  <Eddi|zuHause> voeu?
20:45:39  <frosch123> "vi" for austrians?
20:45:52  *** Chillosophy [] has quit []
20:46:02  <Zuu> "settings" in windows that are persistent during one run-time but not stored in the config are there a standard procedure of doing these?
20:47:01  <Bluelight> Can someone heal my server?
20:47:08  <Zuu> I'm think I'll make the match case button persistent over opening/closing of the sign list window in my patch for that window as well as the break string in my AI debug window patch
20:47:19  *** phalax [~phalax@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:47:25  <Zuu> heal? has it become injured?
20:47:51  <Bluelight> He he,,, Yeah.. :p It doesnt work for some weird reason..
20:48:11  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: my french dictionary has no problem with it
20:48:19  <aber> voeu == vow
20:48:24  <Bluelight> It did work before, and I don't see any change from then to now other then that it just wont work..
20:48:33  <frosch123> "vœu" that is
20:48:57  <Zuu> Bluelight: How does it not work?
20:49:05  <Eddi|zuHause> that might be, but my french vocabulary is missing it...
20:49:20  <Bluelight> Well, it's not visible in the server list..
20:49:37  <Zuu> port forwarding, firewall?
20:49:38  <Eddi|zuHause> and it sounds like a fixed phrase that has some special meaning not covered by the words themselves...
20:50:06  <Bluelight> Well after my best ability the ports are open/forwarded..
20:50:12  <Bluelight> all ports
20:50:13  <Zuu> did you change anything in your router (if you have one), your firewall or changed the port that OpenTTD listens to.
20:50:25  <Bluelight> No, no change..
20:50:32  <TrueBrain> again?
20:50:54  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: it is very likely a fixed phrase in various religious contexts, but likely a different one for all of them :p
20:51:09  <Bluelight> I'm starting to get crazy here.. :p
20:51:13  <Zuu> Bluelight: Did you wait 5 minutes from that you started your server until you checked the server list?
20:51:24  <Bluelight> Yeah
20:51:29  <Belugas> vow... wish, rather
20:51:39  <aber> vœu de chasteté
20:51:54  <Bluelight> now I don't even get the query messages that I got before..
20:51:57  <Zuu> Bluelight: Do you have more than one computer in your network?
20:52:05  <Bluelight> Nope!
20:52:11  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not particularly familiar with french religious phrases
20:52:21  <Eddi|zuHause> they didn't have that chapter in school
20:52:30  <Zuu> Ok, might work to try using your local IP as connect IP with a client on your local machine.
20:53:01  <Bluelight> Yeah on LAN it workes.. but not listed in server list..
20:53:20  <Zuu> Eg. if your local IP is then in OpenTTD try to connect using that IP (not or localhost)
20:53:45  <Zuu> And you have forwarded both TCP and UDP?
20:54:01  <Bluelight> Yeah, but I will try to get another router..
20:54:09  <Bluelight> This one is really stupid..
20:54:23  <Zuu> In your router do you have both "virtual servers" and "port forwarding" ?
20:54:37  <Bluelight> Hold on..
20:54:37  <Belugas> query... SELECT train_a FROM Station_A WHERE Loading IS NOT NULL
20:55:12  <Zuu> If you do, then try the other one then what you have used. In my DLink I need to use "virtual servers" in order for it to work.
20:55:14  <Bluelight> NAT SUA Only
20:55:37  <Zuu> Might be becase I've done a "user error" or just that DLink interface sucks :-p
20:55:46  <Zuu> SUA = "
20:55:55  <Zuu> SUA =? *
20:56:15  <Forked> ask zyxel..
20:56:22  <Belugas> DLink?  got one for at least 5 years
20:56:23  <Bluelight> Yeah, lol
20:56:26  <Belugas> lovely machine
20:56:53  <aber> I have a DLink. It's called Port Mapping
20:56:55  <Bluelight> Well I had the super gaming router from D-link.. It didnt work at all...
20:57:03  <Zuu> Mine is quite nice, bought a 0 or so DLink - works fine except for the inteface being a bit messy.
20:57:08  <Forked> SUA ? Single User AccounTt
20:57:16  <Forked> = .. and remove the "T"
20:57:22  <Bluelight> It worked for some hours and then the IP adress didnt work anymore.. And I had to reset it,.
20:57:39  <Forked> Zuu:
20:57:41  <Bluelight> And after a while it was not possible to get a LAN connection up and running at all..
20:59:28  <TrueBrain> Bluelight: I think we can safely say your router is fucked up :)
21:03:57  *** Terkhen [] has quit [Quit: ...]
21:05:46  <Belugas> fuck.. so old, i can't even remember its model...
21:06:25  <Belugas> Haa!!~
21:06:26  <Belugas>
21:06:28  <Belugas> tadam!
21:06:31  <Belugas> nice pages :D
21:07:00  <Belugas>
21:07:16  <Belugas> looks awfull tough
21:07:23  <Belugas> very not good desgin
21:07:39  <Belugas> but hey... it sits under a desk its whole life!
21:13:43  <Zuu> I have the blank white design though, yea it is probably a bit geeky to have a fancy router hehe
21:14:12  <Zuu> Though, mine is still farily consumer oriented. There is of course people that use much more hardcore stuff in their homes.
21:14:38  <welshdragon>
21:14:45  *** Ryand-Smith [] has joined #openttd
21:14:52  <Ryand-Smith> hello all!
21:15:02  <andythenorth> hi
21:15:40  <Ryand-Smith> tell me, why is openttd so addictive
21:16:09  <Ryand-Smith> also, how should I start to make a trainset for this, I know some C
21:16:29  <welshdragon> Ryand-Smith: check the grapchis development forums
21:16:41  <welshdragon> they are screaming out for coders
21:16:47  <Ryand-Smith> will do
21:16:56  <planetmaker> Ryand-Smith: and C/C++ won't help you a single bit :-P
21:16:59  <Ryand-Smith> I just want to make a Northeast Coridor grf set
21:17:04  <Ryand-Smith> planetmaker: wat
21:17:18  <Ryand-Smith> what is this devilry made of, then
21:17:23  <planetmaker> nfo
21:17:33  <welshdragon> Ryand-Smith: graphics are made of NFO
21:17:46  *** Fast2 [] has joined #openttd
21:17:48  <planetmaker> <-- wiki concerning newgrf coding
21:17:58  <welshdragon> look on the openttdcoop devzone for templates
21:17:59  <planetmaker> looks and feels like assembler
21:18:06  <Ryand-Smith> I somehow had a feeling
21:18:13  <andythenorth> the classier type of graphics are made from c preprocessor turned into nfo
21:18:20  <Ryand-Smith> that was true, anyway
21:18:25  <planetmaker> hehe @ andythenorth ;-)
21:18:47  <andythenorth> one day, with a following wind, we might even get to turn python into nfo
21:18:48  <planetmaker> andythenorth: but that doesn't change that you have to know the NFO.
21:18:57  <andythenorth> nope, but it does make coding better
21:19:28  <Ryand-Smith> Anyway though NFO sounds simple enough
21:19:45  <planetmaker> hehe Good for you
21:19:48  <Ryand-Smith> I just want to run the custom Budd/Kawasaki EMUs that run on long island
21:20:03  <Ryand-Smith> planetmaker I am used to dealing with code that isn't even in english
21:20:17  <Ryand-Smith> the work of a translator is never fun
21:20:30  <planetmaker> non-English is not uncommon here. Guess how many native speakers are around.
21:20:44  <Ryand-Smith> us?
21:21:05  <andythenorth> approximately some of the welsh?
21:21:12  <andythenorth> :P
21:21:27  <planetmaker> but all people just talk just English in this channel - for good reason
21:22:05  <Fast2> Hello
21:22:49  <Fast2> We could try Esperanto :)
21:23:34  <planetmaker> lingua latinum, lingua franca antiqua est. Parlete latinam!
21:23:35  <andythenorth> or bytecode
21:23:38  <Bluelight> I'm back.. SOrry got a phonecall..
21:23:40  <planetmaker> whitespace
21:23:50  <Bluelight> My router is stupid yes, but ports are open..
21:23:53  <andythenorth> .
21:23:54  <Bluelight> Should work..
21:23:57  <andythenorth>
21:24:00  <andythenorth>
21:24:03  <andythenorth>
21:24:20  <andythenorth> nah, whitespace is....lacking something
21:24:27  <planetmaker> lol :-)
21:24:40  <Rubidium> andythenorth: /ignore works quite well as whitespace too
21:24:41  <Bluelight> I can't chat whitespaces with ChatZilla.. :p Stupid software..
21:24:46  *** Rubix`` [] has joined #openttd
21:24:58  <Fast2> Bluelight: Alt+255
21:25:08  <andythenorth> ummm planetmaker aren't we coding something?
21:25:14  <Bluelight> Doesnt work..
21:25:39  *** Ryand-Smith [] has quit [Quit: ajax IRC Client]
21:25:41  <Fast2> Bluelight: You're right... But it worked some time before...
21:25:49  <Bluelight> Ok
21:26:22  <planetmaker> andythenorth: hm... maybe :-)
21:26:45  <andythenorth> might as well try and get FIRS released sometime
21:26:51  <planetmaker> But I try to wrap my mind around text with numbers atm ;-)
21:32:04  <aber> math exam on thursday?
21:32:16  <planetmaker> no. Text stack in NFO ;-)
21:32:46  <andythenorth> planetmaker: I can probably help if you get stuck.  I hate the text stack though...does not compute :|
21:32:52  <planetmaker> The exams are written. I still have to correct them, though... 17 waiting on my desk :S
21:33:32  <Zuu> pm: are you doing your Phd?
21:33:38  <planetmaker> andythenorth: thanks :-)
21:33:40  <planetmaker> Zuu: yes
21:33:51  <Zuu> Nice, didn't knew that.
21:34:13  <planetmaker> I should be done long time ago ;-)
21:34:32  <Zuu> What is the subject area?
21:35:16  <planetmaker> experiments on planet formation (astrophysics)
21:35:25  <planetmaker> yes... I know. My nickname :-P
21:35:34  <Zuu> hehe ok :-p
21:36:01  * Rubidium ponders how one would do full scale tests
21:36:02  <planetmaker> you could also call it aerosol physics.
21:36:30  <Zuu> Hmm, what if everyone would have a nick like that. :-)
21:36:31  <planetmaker> Rubidium: wait and see ;-)
21:36:37  <Prof_Frink> Rubidium: Lab on Magrathea of course.
21:36:38  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: easy, you just blow up a star and watch the cloud while creating a new system
21:37:12  *** oskari89 [] has quit [Quit: Untenmaa, Utm Aœ - Aja 35 Odota seis]
21:37:56  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: yeah, problem is that you wouldn't like to do such tests in 'urban' areas
21:38:04  <planetmaker> lol ;-)
21:38:17  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: that's the case for nuclear explosions, as well :p
21:38:54  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: well, 'our own urban areas' then :)
21:39:44  <planetmaker> tsk... but yeah... it's a bitch ;-)
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21:40:24  <planetmaker> So, I guess we can only test single pieces of the bomb: the detonator, the quality of the plutonium, the antenna, the guidance system, the security lock, ...
21:41:01  <planetmaker> (did that trigger now some wire taps?)
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21:41:22  <Rubidium> planetmaker: nah...
21:41:31  * Rubidium points at CIA-1
21:41:39  <planetmaker> haha :-)
21:41:53  <Prof_Frink> It'd be nice if they *tried* to hide.
21:41:59  <Zuu> While we are discussing this very important topic, I wonder if I have a Window in OpenTTD and (in code) want to make it so that a button state or a text edit string is remembered through many life times of this window? Is there a standard procedure for that in OpenTTD? Shall I use a static class variable or shall I make a global variable for that?
21:43:22  <Muxy> got that error who stop a server : Error: Disconnecting road vehicle.
21:43:56  <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: in most cases it's probably using global variables, but that's because most of the codebase is C, not C++. so the class variable thing sounds more sensible
21:44:01  <Muxy> should i investigate to transmit something ? (0.7.5 server with nobody playing. Strange)
21:44:02  <SmatZ> Muxy: newgrf problems or ottd bug
21:45:00  <Muxy> oups, sory, someone was playing
21:45:34  <Zuu> Eddi: Okay
21:46:24  <Muxy> only generic trams activated
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21:47:19  <Zuu> Would be nice if I can get around to add remembering of state in my two GUI patches so they get one more step ahead.
21:48:41  * TrueBrain gives Zuu time
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21:49:53  * Zuu takes the time and put it in a box
21:50:11  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19023 /trunk/src/table/airport_defaults.h: -Fix (r18807): city airport introduction date had become 5 years later
21:50:17  <Muxy> this happened on CMD_MOVE_RAIL_VEHICLE after a CMD_BUILD_RAIL VEHICLE on same tile.
21:50:39  *** Diablo-D3 [] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
21:50:52  <Zuu> r19023 ^^ now thats interesting :-)
21:51:38  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19024 /trunk/src/vehicle_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#3577]: mass stopping/starting/autoreplacing gave empty errors when there were no vehicles
22:03:16  <Belugas> a router is never stupid.  it's a machine.  it only does what it has been ordered to do
22:03:27  <Belugas> ho... what a lag...
22:03:36  <Belugas> time flies so fast...
22:04:01  <Rubidium> Belugas: but... it *is* stupid because it *only* does whatever it was ordered to do; it doesn't think for itself
22:04:16  <Belugas> buwhahha!!!!
22:04:44  *** Bluelight [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
22:05:05  *** Terkhen [] has joined #openttd
22:05:10  <Belugas> i guess that when machines would not be stupid anymore, they'll say stupid humans :)
22:05:21  <Belugas> only doing what they've been told to do :D
22:05:58  *** sunkan [] has joined #openttd
22:06:12  *** [com]buster is now known as Combuster
22:06:18  *** woldemar [~osaka@] has joined #openttd
22:08:02  <Belugas> funny thing, tough..  an intelligent router means that an intelligent human programmed it
22:08:07  *** kkb110 [] has joined #openttd
22:09:55  <Zuu> As I can see there is no code that is ran specificly when the game switch between being paused/unpaused. _pause_mode is both assigned to and manipulated using bit operations which would make it hard to introduce a function that one has to call in order to chnage_pause_mode that could then contain code that reacts on game being paused/unpaused. The best alternative I can see is to in a Window that wants to do something when the
22:09:55  <Zuu>  game unpauses is to implement OnTick() and each tick check if the pause mode is  "unpaused" then make sure the window is in the state that it should be when the game is unpaused.
22:10:58  <Zuu> I want to disable a button in the AI Debug window when the game become unpaused and repaint the log.
22:11:37  <Zuu> My code shouldn't be very expansive, but it would run very many times unneeded.
22:11:51  *** KritiK [] has joined #openttd
22:12:35  <Eddi|zuHause> <Belugas> funny thing, tough..  an intelligent router means that an intelligent human programmed it <-- who is the bigger fool. the fool, or the fool that thinks he is intelligent? :p
22:12:56  <Eddi|zuHause> or the fool that works late on a friday evening :p
22:12:57  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: obviously the fool
22:13:07  <Belugas> asking is answering ;)
22:13:20  <Belugas> well... not the late night at the office :P
22:13:32  <Belugas> i'm almost out, anyway
22:13:38  <Rubidium> but... it's 23:13 and YOU Belugas... are still at the office
22:14:45  <Belugas> 17:13.. not that late :)
22:15:05  <aber> :)
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22:15:14  *** WhiteDog [] has joined #openttd
22:16:13  <WhiteDog> i have a noob question: i make a train go from a to c, via b, but when the train gets to c it goes back to a. how do i make it "reverse" the orders when it reaches the last one? (passenger train)
22:16:49  <Belugas> in fact... it's indeed time to run home!!!
22:16:50  <WhiteDog> so it goes a b c b a b c ...
22:16:52  <Belugas> Good weekend all!
22:17:06  <Rubidium> see you on Monday Belugas :)
22:17:17  <Belugas> maybe before...
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22:18:38  <Belugas> WhiteDog, why don't you reverse the order yourself?  you just need to add an order to b after c...
22:18:46  * Belugas is gone
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22:19:46  <WhiteDog> yes but what if i add 5 via's ?
22:19:54  <WhiteDog> like a real passenger train :)
22:20:01  <WhiteDog> that's a lot of orders :)
22:20:16  *** sunkan [] has joined #openttd
22:20:21  <WhiteDog> a b c d e d c b a b ...
22:20:57  <WhiteDog> is there a better way besides adding them manually?
22:22:11  <aber> isnt that the way the trains behave?
22:22:34  <aber> the train goes to every station on his route?
22:22:43  <Rubidium> WhiteDog: is there only one way to go from a to e? And are there other stations on the route than b c and d?
22:22:54  <WhiteDog> yes but when it reaches the last one, it drives back to the first
22:22:55  *** GT [] has joined #openttd
22:23:11  <Rubidium> if the answer is yes to the first and no to the second, just make an order for 'go to a', 'go to e'
22:23:12  <planetmaker> don't use non-stop orders
22:23:44  <WhiteDog> i only got 3 stations atm
22:23:53  <WhiteDog> no other inbetween
22:26:15  <WhiteDog> i changed all to "go to"
22:26:27  <WhiteDog> still doesn't stop twice at the middle station tough
22:27:01  <Eddi|zuHause> WhiteDog: you have to do the backwards route explicit
22:27:05  <WhiteDog> ok
22:27:21  <Eddi|zuHause> a b c d c b [repeat]
22:27:26  <WhiteDog> i was just wondering if there was a "better" way :)
22:27:33  <Eddi|zuHause> no, there's not
22:27:41  <WhiteDog> maybe a good feature to add :)
22:27:51  <WhiteDog> for passenger trains
22:28:09  *** GT [] has left #openttd []
22:28:14  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe, but how to do in a way that allows switching between both ways, and make it understandable for people?
22:28:22  *** Brianetta [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
22:28:56  <Eddi|zuHause> i might want to have a circular route where one vehicle goes a b c d a, and the other goes a d c b a
22:29:00  <WhiteDog> well if you click "end of orders", maybe an option to change that to "Reverse orders"
22:29:49  <Eddi|zuHause> WhiteDog: yes, but that's not all of it, you also need the ability to switch direction while in the middle of the route
22:29:49  *** Brianetta [] has joined #openttd
22:30:04  <WhiteDog> :)
22:30:08  *** lobstar [~michielbi@] has joined #openttd
22:30:11  <WhiteDog> you guys proably know best
22:30:29  <WhiteDog> just picked this up, last time i played ttd must been 10 years ago or something
22:30:57  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not against this feature, but if you do it as simple as you said, it's useless for anything than the most simple orders
22:31:01  <WhiteDog> i can't even get my signals straight for a waiting track :p
22:31:09  <Eddi|zuHause> you need a way to deal with conditional orders
22:31:34  *** Bluelight [] has joined #openttd
22:32:33  <WhiteDog> well thx already
22:32:37  <WhiteDog> i'll be back tough :)
22:32:45  <WhiteDog> gonna try the waiting track again
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22:33:46  *** DJNekkid [] has joined #openttd
22:34:31  <DJNekkid> hi guys... if anyone is interested, me and two mates are mixing live atm ... even video :) ... mailly house music
22:44:50  * Zuu sticks to Spotify Premium aired over FM
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22:51:47  <andythenorth> meh, I am going to ask some dumb questions about the map array.  I am reading openttd src, but I have...understanding fail
22:53:04  <andythenorth> how would I figure out how much space in the map array any given tile type uses (and by implication, how much is unused)
22:53:06  <andythenorth> ?
22:53:54  <Rubidium> see docs/landscape_grid.html
22:54:59  <andythenorth> thanks
22:55:23  <andythenorth> hmmm....if I've understood that right, industry tiles have free all the bits needed for road, rail and canal tiles?
22:56:05  <andythenorth> no I've understood wrong :(
22:56:36  <SmatZ> lolno
22:56:56  <SmatZ> industry has only 3 free bits
22:57:09  <SmatZ> according to that table
22:57:31  <andythenorth> ho hum
22:57:38  <andythenorth> another idea bites the dust :D
23:00:52  * andythenorth thought I had a solution for enforcing separation of industry from surrounding 'stuff' (objects, industries, buildings) with an eye candy bonus
23:00:54  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it's a really big problem, unless you come up with an idea for "stacked tiles" or something
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23:02:10  <Eddi|zuHause> efficient "sparse arrays" or something
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23:02:51  <Eddi|zuHause> both space and access time efficient
23:02:54  <andythenorth> sounds like a pony?
23:03:08  <Eddi|zuHause> a huge pony :p
23:03:29  <Eddi|zuHause> it's like what they call a "rewrite of the map array"
23:03:41  <andythenorth> so help my dumb brain...what happens to a farmland tile when it is built on?  It becomes a rail / road / canal tile?
23:03:51  <Rubidium> yes
23:04:03  <Eddi|zuHause> it gets cleared first
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23:04:36  <andythenorth> would an industry freak out if some of its tiles were cleared?
23:04:50  <andythenorth> (if such were possible)
23:05:05  <Eddi|zuHause> probably...
23:05:47  <andythenorth> what if they had some kind of special flag on them....such as 'freakout = false' ?
23:06:11  <Rubidium> clearing an industry's tile == deleting the whole industry
23:07:08  <andythenorth> probably the best way to explain this is: it would be useful if the equivalent of farm tiles could be included explicitly in an industry layout.
23:07:24  <andythenorth> So that a specific pattern of such could be provided around an industry
23:08:25  <andythenorth> They would act like normal industry tiles when placing an industry - i.e. can't build industry if tile n is blocked
23:08:37  <andythenorth> they would have an action 2 / 3 chain for graphics
23:08:45  <andythenorth> but cargo acceptance would be 0
23:09:10  <andythenorth> and they could be over-built with roads/rails/canals.
23:09:20  <andythenorth>'s probably another pony
23:09:55  <Rubidium> sounds quite complex
23:10:50  <andythenorth> nfo side it would be one addition to the 'special flags' property, but yes, probably complex :)
23:11:35  <Rubidium> but why enforce it to be empty and then allow it to be overbuild
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23:13:22  <andythenorth> (i) enforces separation between industries, permitting routes to be built.  (my fs bug report seems to be misunderstood?).  Industry sets are quite capable of blocking large sections of the map with contiguous industries, enforcing tunnels on the user.
23:13:43  <andythenorth> (ii) eye candy - farm-style fields, but...under my control :)
23:16:05  <Eddi|zuHause> why would both features need to be combined?
23:16:37  <Eddi|zuHause> afaik you can already check if surrounding tiles are free by callback
23:17:06  <Eddi|zuHause> and the farm tiles need a few new industry related callbacks about appearance and creation
23:17:34  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: it's possible to check, but baroque to implement.  Unless I'm missing something
23:17:40  <Eddi|zuHause> plus a solution for "dangling references" when the industry closes
23:18:09  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: they wouldn't be dangling references.  These are industry tiles.  I knew about that problem, which is why I think this is better
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23:19:25  <Bluelight>
23:19:44  <Eddi|zuHause> so you want industry tiles to be deletable by the player
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23:20:33  <andythenorth> (if they have a special flag), yes that would be implied by having them over-buildable?
23:20:41  <andythenorth> I have no problem with that happening
23:21:17  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, overbuilding is just clearing and building something else
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23:22:49  <Eddi|zuHause> with a few flags about clearing automatically (e.g. trees when building a rail) or requiring manual (e.g. houses while building a rail)
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23:28:22  <andythenorth> I could enforce a crude distance check on industries quite simply when constructing a new one: repeatedly check industry var 64 for every other type of industry (probably around 60 types).
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23:28:54  <andythenorth> is var 64 expensive?
23:30:10  <Eddi|zuHause> O(number of industries) probably
23:30:32  <andythenorth> :|
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23:39:38  * andythenorth ponders coding a cb2F check for every tile at the edge of every industry layout :|
23:41:10  <andythenorth> average maybe 12 edge tiles per industry, perhaps 3 or 4 layout variations, ~60 industries....2800 checks to code
23:41:13  * andythenorth is sad
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23:43:35  <WhiteDog> i got some trouble setting up a waiting bay on a 1-track line with 2 trains on it
23:43:58  <WhiteDog> the trains both stop at the bay and stand there :)
23:44:29  <Bluelight> What is a waiting bay?
23:44:50  <WhiteDog> a small track next to another
23:45:06  <WhiteDog> so trans can pass eachother on a single track
23:45:53  <mib_3cl6t6> andythenorth: 4 tiles is enough per industy, one on each corner will do juuuuuuuuust fine. ;)
23:46:27  <andythenorth> true
23:47:03  <andythenorth> this is the most epic industry generation fail I've seen so far:
23:47:03  <andythenorth>
23:47:13  <andythenorth> try building routes through that.  tunnel time
23:47:14  <mib_3cl6t6> have fun, one at a time...
23:48:36  <WhiteDog> here is a screenshot:,%205%20Jun%201959.png
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23:49:08  <WhiteDog> i don't understand how to set up the signals :(
23:51:24  <Bluelight> Explain more plece..
23:51:27  <Bluelight> please?
23:51:40  <WhiteDog> they just both wait there
23:51:53  <Bluelight> Ohh..
23:52:13  <WhiteDog> but the track in front is clear
23:52:15  <Bluelight> You need a signal at the start too..
23:52:35  <WhiteDog> well i did ttry that
23:52:40  <Bluelight> Not just the end.. the trains can go on the same track..
23:52:45  <WhiteDog> and that kind of worked
23:53:07  <WhiteDog> but the train then tries to use the same track as the other one
23:53:19  <WhiteDog> then returns to the station
23:53:24  <WhiteDog> then takes the correct path
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23:53:49  <Terkhen> good night
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23:54:59  <WhiteDog> this is with 2 signals:,%2019%20Okt%201959.png
23:55:39  <WhiteDog> why it tries the bottom track is beyond me :)
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23:56:50  <WhiteDog> i read somewhere on the wiki, if one-way signals are there, it will follow the path it's going in
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