Log for #openttd on 6th February 2010:
Times are UTC Toggle Colours
00:01:11  <Bluelight>
00:01:14  <Rubidium> WhiteDog: the train is lost, i.e. pathfinding isn't done and it just messes up your network
00:02:10  <WhiteDog> ic
00:02:33  <WhiteDog> how do i set up signals correctly for this situation?
00:02:59  <Bluelight> Let me make a screen..
00:03:04  <WhiteDog> :)
00:03:06  <Bluelight> Takes some time..
00:03:09  <WhiteDog> np
00:04:42  <WhiteDog> oh crap :)
00:04:46  <WhiteDog> they just collided
00:04:49  <WhiteDog> lol
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00:10:06  <Bluelight> As simple as this..
00:10:07  <Bluelight>
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00:10:49  <WhiteDog> are those simple 1-way signals?
00:11:45  <WhiteDog> cause i did try that, see my second screen:,%2019%20Okt%201959.png
00:12:30  <Bluelight> Looks like you made the signal too late or something..
00:12:56  <Bluelight> They usually don't go to a oneway track like that..
00:12:58  <WhiteDog> no if i fast forward it does that again
00:13:09  <Bluelight> Ohh?
00:13:10  <WhiteDog> and again
00:13:16  <WhiteDog> :)
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00:14:08  <aber> take the signal to the junction?
00:14:11  <Bluelight> Send the train to the depot and send it out again..
00:14:15  <Bluelight> It should work..
00:14:45  <WhiteDog> yeah i think i built the signal 1 tile off
00:14:49  <WhiteDog> could that be it?
00:15:28  <Bluelight>
00:16:05  <WhiteDog> i did read that
00:16:21  <Bluelight> Ok.. Hmm..
00:16:23  <WhiteDog> let me try the depot
00:17:16  <roboboy> bye
00:17:49  <Bluelight> Take care!
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00:20:22  * andythenorth patches a nasty hack to see if industry tile 0xFF can be used on land to enforce space between industries....
00:20:26  <andythenorth> answer: yes
00:20:45  <WhiteDog> ok i resolved it
00:20:53  <WhiteDog> i changed the track order
00:21:09  <Bluelight> Can you show me screen?
00:21:13  <WhiteDog> the bottom track now goes to left, upper to the right
00:21:16  * andythenorth wonders how this could be done properly
00:21:23  <WhiteDog> yeah sec
00:22:45  <Bluelight> Trains normally don't go behind a oneway track like the exaple you had..
00:22:51  <Bluelight> Sunno why that happend..
00:23:04  <WhiteDog>,%2017%20Mei%201967.png
00:23:16  <WhiteDog> the lights are closer now to the junction
00:23:23  <WhiteDog> i think
00:23:43  <Bluelight> Yeah but thats not the problem.. It should work the other way too..
00:24:12  <WhiteDog> you can recreate it perhaps?
00:24:22  <WhiteDog> are you a dev by any chance? :)
00:24:28  <Bluelight> It's not closer btw
00:24:44  <Bluelight> Nope.. Can't even get my server working..
00:24:49  <WhiteDog> heh
00:24:56  <__ln__>
00:25:08  <WhiteDog> well it's still beta offcourse
00:25:20  <Bluelight> But I know a little about signals. THough I always build two ways tracks..
00:25:21  <__ln__> *of course
00:25:39  <WhiteDog> sorry
00:25:42  <Bluelight> He he,,. jet train..
00:25:53  <WhiteDog> it's 1:30 am :)
00:26:42  <WhiteDog> i deserve the t-shirt: i played OpenTTD for 3 hours... and all i made was this lousy junction <screenshot>
00:27:26  <Bluelight> I have to go.. Other games waiting for me..
00:27:34  <WhiteDog> :)
00:27:41  <WhiteDog> np and thx for the help
00:27:42  <Bluelight> Or correction, I'll be in this chat but I'n away!
00:27:56  <WhiteDog> same here :)
00:28:00  <WhiteDog> << zzz
00:28:07  <Bluelight> Glad to be of service.. Even with my limited skills..
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00:41:42  <andythenorth> good night
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02:06:10  <Bluelight> Is everybody sleeping?
02:06:43  <ccfreak2k> I'm debugging SDL on the gamecube.
02:06:56  <ccfreak2k> Or trying. My test program seems to ignore the breakpoint.
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02:11:45  <ccfreak2k> Oh, I didn't initialize the debug subsystem.
02:12:28  <Bluelight> Ohh.. I have no idea on that stuff..
02:12:34  <Bluelight> Never used a Gamecube
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02:13:18  <Bluelight> Anyone playing OpenTTD here?
02:13:28  <Bluelight> Welcome back roboboy..
02:13:34  <ccfreak2k> Bluelight, in this case, it's exactly like debugging any other embedded system.
02:13:41  <ccfreak2k> Except in this case it happens to be a game console.
02:14:21  <Bluelight> Well I don't know much about debugging either? What is it actually.. Correction of code errors?
02:14:35  <ccfreak2k> Finding bugs and fixing them.
02:15:15  <Bluelight> Man, that require some coding expertise ?
02:15:16  <ccfreak2k> Many systems include gdb, which is a program that helps in finding bugs. For example, if your program crashes, it can tell you where it crashed and what the values of each variable was.
02:15:47  <Bluelight> Cool
02:15:56  <Bluelight> Are you making your own game or something?
02:16:18  <ccfreak2k> I'm working on the port of SDL to the GameCube.
02:16:19  <Bluelight> I want to make a game.. :p
02:16:30  <ccfreak2k> If it works, I'd be able to get OpenTTD to run on it.
02:16:54  <ccfreak2k> It doesn't necessarily have to be a game. For example, since I have the "Broadband Adapter", I can run a webserver on it.
02:16:57  <Bluelight> Simple DirectMedia Layer
02:17:46  <Bluelight> Cool
02:18:13  <ccfreak2k> Cool indeed.
02:18:39  <Bluelight> Can anyone tell me why I periodically lose connection to internet games (OpenTTD)
02:19:00  <Bluelight> The internet is working, but I'm getting disconnected all the time..
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02:20:32  <roboboy> cyou
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02:29:18  <Bluelight> Most people here are a sleep I guess.. Though they are not flagged as away..
02:33:06  <peter1138> heh
02:33:21  <peter1138> didn't you already decide your router sucks?
02:33:24  <peter1138> that might be a reason
02:33:29  <peter1138> or perhaps it's just your isp that sucks
02:33:31  <Bluelight> Yeah, maybe..
02:33:32  <peter1138> that would do it too
02:33:45  <Bluelight> ISP should be good..
02:33:53  <Bluelight> Low latency and packetloss..
02:35:03  <ccfreak2k>
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03:10:02  <Bluelight> ccfreak2k: You use an old compiler? I use Code::Blocks, though I dunno how to really use it.. :p
03:10:15  <ccfreak2k> Bluelight, nope, the compiler is GCC 4.4.1.
03:10:24  <ccfreak2k> I don't think it's the most recent, but it's not old by a long shot.
03:10:33  <Bluelight> And old C code dont work.. :p gets errors..
03:10:38  <ccfreak2k> I have Code::Blocks, but mingw does the heavy lifting.
03:11:06  <Bluelight> mingw?
03:11:34  <Bluelight> I have a lot to learn from you..
03:11:40  <Bluelight> :p
03:13:01  <ccfreak2k> Code::Blocks is just an IDE. It doesn't have a toolchain AFAIK.
03:13:18  <ccfreak2k> If you want to use gcc in Windows, you'll almost certainly use mingw, which is what I'm using.
03:14:25  <Bluelight> Hmm... I don't even know what AFAIK or mingw or gcc is... Do you want to explain?
03:15:22  <Eoin> as far as i knowe
03:15:23  <Bluelight> I can make 3d models in 3d studio max 9.. :p
03:15:43  <Bluelight> Do you want a picture of a gray box?
03:15:47  <ccfreak2k> GCC is known as the Gnu C compiler or, more appropriately these days, Gnu Compiler Collection.
03:15:58  <ccfreak2k> It's the toolchain that turns source code into binaries that a computer can execute.
03:16:22  <ccfreak2k> mingw is MINimalist Gnu for Windows, which is GCC ported to win32.
03:16:27  <Bluelight> Isnt Code::Blocks a GCC too then?
03:16:31  <ccfreak2k> No.
03:16:39  <ccfreak2k> Code::Blocks is basically a fancy text editor.
03:16:49  <ccfreak2k> However, it has support for running make(1) and kin.
03:18:00  <Bluelight> But Code::Blocks can make a .exe-file that you can run?
03:18:27  <Bluelight> Damn I'm stupid.. :p
03:18:42  <Bluelight> How can I learn more about this?
03:18:48  <ccfreak2k> But there is no "Code::Blocks compiler".
03:18:56  <ccfreak2k> It uses another compiler to actually make those binaries.
03:18:58  <ccfreak2k> Such as GCC.
03:19:05  <Bluelight> Ohh..
03:19:53  <Bluelight> So if I want to make a Irrlicht project I whould want to use something else then Code::Blocks?
03:20:08  <Bluelight> Irrlicht is a 3d engine..
03:20:41  <ccfreak2k> I know it is.
03:20:46  <ccfreak2k> It depends on what you need your IDE to do.
03:21:01  <ccfreak2k> For example, I like to have an IDE that lets me select something, like a variable, and have it tell me where said variable is declared.
03:21:24  <ccfreak2k> Microsoft's VisualStudio has IntelliSense do this, which is why everyone likes it.
03:22:00  <Bluelight> But visual studio uses directx or something.. Not cross platform?
03:22:33  <ccfreak2k> You can coerce VisualStudio to use other toolchains I think, but I'm not sure.
03:22:34  <Bluelight> My dream is to make my own game that will work on all computers..
03:22:47  <ccfreak2k> However, it's tightly integrated with its own compiler, which IIRC only makes win32/win64 code.
03:22:56  <Bluelight> And I don't know how to code.. :p
03:24:56  <Bluelight> I wish I had a software package to make cross platform games with..
03:25:21  <Bluelight> Like in the game Oblivion, you can change whateveryou like in the game and make your own..
03:25:40  <Bluelight> I made weapons for Morrowind at one poing.. Lets see if I have some pictures..
03:26:17  <ccfreak2k> Cross-platform games are difficult to make without introducing compiler conditionals in your code.
03:26:35  <ccfreak2k> For example, the GameCube lacks a keyboard and mouse, so any games that rely on those wouldn't work.
03:26:59  <Bluelight> Yeah, but I want it to use keyboard and mouse..
03:27:06  <ccfreak2k> Windows and many UNIX-like systems are also quite different. Libraries like SDL help abstract that away, though.
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03:28:07  <Bluelight> I want my game to work on Windows, Mac, and Linux
03:29:17  <SirSquidness>  n    /win 35
03:29:21  <SirSquidness> ignor eme
03:38:06  <Bluelight> You are writing cryptic.. :)
03:38:31  <Bluelight> Anyways here are som pictures of new weapons I made for the game Morrowind..
03:38:32  <Bluelight>
03:38:48  <Bluelight>
03:39:10  <SirSquidness> nice work on that weapon
03:39:14  <Bluelight>
03:39:38  <Bluelight> Thanks.. :)
03:39:59  <SirSquidness> the staff looks like it belongs in some awesome game of double-base-ball or something :P
03:40:35  <Bluelight> He he, it's actually based on the magic staff from Diablo II
03:41:21  <SirSquidness> I still play that every now and then.
03:41:24  <Bluelight> And the pole axe actually exist.. Dunno why it has that meat clubb though..
03:41:42  <SirSquidness> For awesome looks?
03:41:44  <Bluelight> Wanna try the weapons?
03:42:09  <Bluelight> They come on the starting point on a industrial wagon that I made myself..
03:42:10  <SirSquidness> I don't have morrowind anymore - otherwise I would
03:42:14  <Bluelight> Ok
03:42:34  <SirSquidness> I purchased it on steam a few days ago for pretty cheap though
03:42:43  <SirSquidness> just need to download it
03:42:51  <Bluelight> Ok
03:43:36  <Bluelight> I'm not even sure if I can find it.. Somewhere on those hard drives..
03:44:09  <ccfreak2k> while(1) if (PAD_ButtonsHeld(0) & PAD_BUTTON_A) return;
03:44:14  <ccfreak2k> I am awesome at wait loops.
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03:47:26  <glx> ccfreak2k: cpu intensive ;)
03:48:06  <ccfreak2k> I don't want to have to make a SDL event struct just so I can read a button.,
03:50:39  <ccfreak2k> Besides, there's no other threads on the entire system running.
04:00:22  <Bluelight> Here I tried to make a rose with the white transparent, but in-game it became white.. :p -
04:05:00  <Bluelight> I found the mod after much searching. :) -
04:05:10  <SirSquidness> haha, I like that rose - makes it look like a decoration I'd make IRL
04:05:20  <SirSquidness> a put with a rose printed on a piece of paper instead of a real one
04:05:35  <Bluelight> He he..
04:05:55  <Bluelight> I still don't know how they do transparency..
04:06:10  <Bluelight> It's possible in 3d max, but that don't work in-game
04:06:44  <SirSquidness> indeed
04:27:16  <ccfreak2k> The game probably has some manner of texture format method of having alpha.
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05:11:53  <ccfreak2k>
05:12:07  <ccfreak2k> This is worlds better than guess -> compile -> run -> repeat
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07:40:06  <Terkhen> good morning
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07:57:20  <andythenorth> morning
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08:33:06  <andythenorth> TrueBrain / Rubidium are the css files for the website under svn control?  I can't find them in my checkout anywhere :o
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08:46:04  <Bluelight> Man, I'm going to bed.. :p
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08:48:53  <Rubidium> andythenorth: I for sure hope it's somewhere in the svn repository (i.e. backed up)
08:49:20  <roboboy> hello
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08:51:30  <andythenorth> Rubidium: I've searched my local repo, no css files.  I have everything from svn:// checked out as far as I know
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09:18:52  * andythenorth now understands just enough openttd code to try and do stupid things
09:19:12  <peter1138> \o/
09:19:54  <Eddi|zuHause> that's excellent progress ;)
09:20:23  <Eddi|zuHause> i wanted to reply to something, but i forgot it...
09:25:18  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: alberth * r19025 /trunk/src/smallmap_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Rename DrawSmallMapStuff() to DrawSmallMapColumn().
09:25:50  <Eddi|zuHause> but functions with "Stuff" in their name are cool :p
09:27:17  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: alberth * r19026 /trunk/src/smallmap_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Move a constant computation out of the loop.
09:27:32  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: perhaps you forgot about some kind of industry tile patch you were writing :o
09:27:32  <Alberth> functions with DoIt() too.
09:30:42  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: alberth * r19027 /trunk/src/landscape.h: -Doc: Document RemapCoords functions.
09:35:10  <andythenorth> I've found most of the industry tile code, but I can't see the function that destroys the entire industry when one or more industry tiles is cleared?
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09:37:42  <ccfreak2k> Maybe the industry tiles become orphaned if one of the industry tiles is removed.
09:39:01  <andythenorth> but the game would suggest otherwise...when using magic bulldozer on an industry for example
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09:42:07  <ccfreak2k> Just guessing.
09:42:31  <ccfreak2k> Maybe it should be called the "technology bulldozer".
09:44:52  <Alberth> I would expect to find industry removal in the Industry class.  (Industry::~Industry()  seems to do something like that)
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09:46:49  <andythenorth> Alberth: I think when the game attempts to clear a tile, the tiles industry is removed, then the cleanup loop deals with the tiles later?
09:49:12  <Alberth> Never looked into industry removal, so I at best I am doing an educated guess: When deleting a tile, it finds it is an industry tile, it finds the industry, and does 'delete i' which removes all traces of the industry.   But please verify this in the code.
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09:49:48  <andythenorth> looks something like that
09:50:08  <Alberth> leaving industry tiles around that do not belong to some industry is way too complicated and fragile
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09:51:42  <andythenorth> appears all tiles that belong to the industry have animation removed and are marked dirty, except for a special case for oil rig
09:51:58  <Terkhen> andythenorth: you can also grep where the magic bulldozer cheat is checked, since industries can't be removed by the player without it
09:52:00  <Eddi|zuHause> /* MakeWaterKeepingClass() doesn't remove animation if the tiles
09:52:02  <Eddi|zuHause>  * become watery, but be on the safe side an always remote it. */
09:52:05  <Eddi|zuHause> that doesn't make any sense
09:52:13  <Alberth> why don't you enlarge the tile-area that is checked for being clear, before building a new industry?
09:52:39  <Eddi|zuHause> in src/industry_cmd.cpp:153-ish
09:53:29  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: in "ClearTile_Industry" you should probably start
09:53:48  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: yup
09:54:10  <Eddi|zuHause> "delete i;" <-
09:54:18  <andythenorth> Alberth: I am trying to kill two birds with one stone, probably a bad idea
09:54:29  <Eddi|zuHause> that destroys the industry
09:54:38  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: thanks
09:55:03  <Eddi|zuHause> it calls Industry::~Industry()
09:55:13  <Eddi|zuHause> where it then loops over all industry-tiles and removes them
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09:55:55  <Alberth> andythenorth: I can imagine that different users want different amounts of clear space around the industry, that sounds complicated to realize in a grf to me (but you probably know that MUCH better than me)
09:56:36  <andythenorth> Alberth: it would be easy to provide in a grf with a 'clearance' tile such as 0xFF
09:57:32  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: maybe add an action 0 property that changes the behaviour of tile 0xFF
09:57:43  <andythenorth> I think 0xFF could be extended easily to work on land, or another 'magic' tile provided ....0xFE
09:58:03  <Eddi|zuHause> claiming another ID might be problematic
09:58:16  <Eddi|zuHause> as industry sets _might_ be already using them
09:58:24  <andythenorth> yup, the action 0 prop is an interesting suggestion
09:58:32  <Eddi|zuHause> so it would require a jump to grf version 8
09:58:54  <andythenorth> wonder if I can just use the 'this industry is built on water' flag that exists on the industry?
09:59:09  <andythenorth> check that, then do a different check for tile 0xFF depending on result
09:59:24  <Alberth> andythenorth: the disadvantage of that solution is that not all industry sets provide such tiles, ie it gives a partial solution.
09:59:30  <Eddi|zuHause> for a quick hack, yes, but for the specs, probably not
10:00:10  <andythenorth> Alberth: true
10:00:26  <Eddi|zuHause> e.g. things like coastal resort hotels might check for water 0xFF, without being built on water themselves
10:02:42  <andythenorth> Alberth: I think having the game check a larger tile area has other problems
10:03:48  <andythenorth> for example town industries don't require a buffer zone
10:03:57  <andythenorth> hmmm.  this is a thorny problem :|
10:04:47  <Alberth> If it was easy, RB would have solved it already ;)
10:05:33  <andythenorth> I think modifying the tile 0xFF check is the most likely solution to work.  I know it looks like something the game should do on behalf of grf authors, but I don't think it can.
10:06:09  <andythenorth> Adding clearance tiles to layouts is no drama.
10:07:19  <andythenorth> I would have to add them to about 150 layouts, so I wondered be suggesting it if it was unworkable from the nfo side :o
10:07:25  <andythenorth> wouldn't /s
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10:08:57  <ccfreak2k> Do any of you have experience with remote debugging with gdb?
10:09:47  <Alberth> I just started thinking about, so for me it is too early to draw any conclusion.
10:10:02  <Alberth> Town industries do seem to need a different handling
10:10:33  <Alberth> as for NFO, we need some form of tools to lift the abstraction level there
10:10:45  <Alberth> unfortunately, another complicated problem
10:11:13  <andythenorth> what would you have in mind for nfo abstraction in this case?
10:11:29  * Alberth ponders whether making a specialized tool for a single type of nfo would be any good
10:12:35  <andythenorth> if it's a drag and drop GUI to make industry layouts on a nice grid, then I would welcome that :P
10:12:45  <Alberth> I don't have anything in mind. I never did any NFO coding, so I have not the faintest clue of the issues there
10:13:12  <andythenorth> the issues are manageable.  Code gets written.  Those that can't write it usually have very bad ideas anyway.
10:13:20  <andythenorth> nfo is a quality filter for newgrf sets
10:13:38  <andythenorth> :D
10:13:39  <Alberth> :)
10:14:22  * andythenorth is having trouble separating the industry 'clearance' issue from a desire to plant animated tiles around an industry (like fields, but with different graphics)
10:14:35  <andythenorth> looks like the two things should get solved together, but perhaps not
10:14:52  <andythenorth> conflation of concerns :|
10:16:11  <Alberth> we'd need to have two patches anyway :p
10:16:46  <andythenorth> a new tile type is out of the question I suppose?
10:17:05  <Yexo> why would you need a new tile type?
10:18:00  <andythenorth> probably because I don't understand existing tiles enough :o
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10:27:36  * andythenorth tries to understand if the graphics for clear tiles of class farmland could be exposed to newgrf.....looks like the routine for drawing fields is highly bespoke
10:29:25  * Alberth just learned a new word from andythenorth
10:29:40  <Alberth> yes, all code is :)
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10:33:27  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: no, CSS files are at, which is not in SVN
10:33:36  * andythenorth thinks that when an industry 'plants' a 'field', it could copy the necessary graphics 'stuff' into the tile from a tile definition local to the industry (I'll call it the graphics 'stuff' action 2,, 3 etc because that's the only name I know for it)
10:33:36  <Yexo> andythenorth: there are enough free bits in the clear tile type to make that possible
10:35:16  <andythenorth> TrueBrain: thanks - might ask about that later!
10:39:19  <roboboy> hm acording to wikipedia a new company has been added to the confusion of the MicroProse rights ownership
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10:45:48  <TrueBrain> roboboy: what confusion?
10:50:00  <roboboy> well we do not deffinatively know who owns the rights, we have a good idea but its not definate
10:50:11  <TrueBrain> really? Lol! That would be new ...
10:50:23  <TrueBrain> I know for a sure fact who has the distribution rights
10:50:48  <TrueBrain> mostly as I have seen the exception they made for one instance, and waves any distirbution cost for distribution of the files for a certain event
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10:56:04  <__ln__> roboboy: *definitely, *definite
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10:58:48  <TrueBrain> for Dune2 I have a much harder time tracking the owner ... found the owner of Dune, but that is about it ... all requests forms bounce with: we do not own it :(
10:59:54  <TrueBrain> or even who has distribution rights for that matter ...
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11:10:53  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: you should really test your HTML before you publish it :)
11:10:55  <TrueBrain> hehe :)
11:17:50  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truebrain * r19028 /extra/website/bananas/ (templates/bananas/manager.html [Website] -Add: a total amount of downloads per release for BaNaNaS (based on patch by andythenorth)
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11:20:00  <Rubidium> ooh... party!
11:20:17  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truebrain * r19029 /extra/website/bananas/ [Website] -Change: use another method of generating BaNaNaS filenames, which is a bit more sane
11:20:39  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truebrain * r19030 /extra/website/bananas/ [Website] -Add: add versions 0.7.3 till 0.7.5 in BaNaNaS version selection
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11:21:41  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truebrain * r19031 /extra/website/bananas/templates/bananas/ (7 files): [Website] -Add: add a HTTP download links for all files, by clicking on the Download link
11:21:46  <Alberth> widgets!
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11:22:59  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truebrain * r19032 /extra/website/bananas/templates/bananas/index.html: [Website] -Fix (r19031): forgot one place to link to http
11:24:57  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truebrain * r19033 /extra/website/frontpage/templates/frontpage/links.html: [Website] -Add: links of who is hosting which mirror
11:25:28  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truebrain * r19034 /extra/website/frontpage/templates/frontpage/about.html: [Website] -Change: mark that Mac OS X is no longer supported for the 1.0.0 series
11:26:23  <andythenorth> TrueBrain: testing html == over-rated.  Fire, forget, hope not to have to fix :D
11:26:26  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truebrain * r19035 /extra/website/templates/header.html: [Website] -Fix: BaNaNaS Base [Graphic|Sound|Music] is now grouped under Base Replacements
11:26:44  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: overrated, maybe. But it was wrong too ;)
11:26:50  <TrueBrain> 'align=right' for example does not work
11:28:08  <TrueBrain> okay, that syncs most website changes
11:28:14  <TrueBrain> long overdue
11:30:33  <andythenorth> align='right' should work - is it deprecated against the DTD we're using or something?
11:30:43  <TrueBrain> XHTML ;)
11:30:45  <andythenorth> If the css was available I'd do that properly :)
11:30:57  <TrueBrain> this way it is solved too
11:31:04  <TrueBrain> it didn't look that nice, even not when aligned right
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11:38:01  <jonty-comp> pfft, html is supposed to be wrong
11:38:11  <jonty-comp> otherwise they wouldn't make it so difficult to break it
11:38:38  * jonty-comp has never ran a validator on his company's website, because he doesn't want to break the validation server
11:39:17  <Eddi|zuHause> hehe ;)
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11:40:56  <Alberth> jonty-comp: just  a single page is probably enough to prove that the site is not compliant :)
11:41:10  <jonty-comp> the index page is probably the most complex
11:41:31  <jonty-comp> oh ho, only 10 errors
11:41:34  <jonty-comp> and 79 warnings :p
11:41:54  <jonty-comp> but that's against HTML4
11:42:17  <andythenorth>
11:42:42  <jonty-comp> actually, most of those errors are easy to fix
11:42:51  * jonty-comp considers spending 10 minutes on them
11:43:06  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: "Typ: text/x-unknown-content-type"?
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11:46:10  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i'm imagining an industry callback that gets as parameter the industry-id (if valid) and the industry type. the callback result is a SpriteID to be displayed
11:47:44  <Eddi|zuHause> and maybe a second animation-like callback
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11:48:41  <Eddi|zuHause> the industry type needs to be stored in the (clear/farm) tile
11:49:03  <Eddi|zuHause> the callback is called each tileloop
11:49:39  <Eddi|zuHause> industry-id is invalid if the industry has been closed
11:50:34  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: the greeble tile still needs to know what graphics to display after the industry has been closed.  it can't rely on the industry being present
11:50:54  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: exactly, that's what the industry type is for
11:51:34  <Eddi|zuHause> callback (invalid industry-id, valid industry-type) -> handle deleted industry
11:51:44  <andythenorth> ok
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11:52:04  <andythenorth> I did have 'store industry type' in my proposal but I deleted it :o
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11:53:10  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truebrain * r19036 /extra/website/bananas/ (12 files in 2 dirs): [Website] -Fix: don't link to files via http:// in BaNaNaS web interface if they are not yet on the webserver/mirrors
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11:54:19  <WhiteDog> hi guys, i installed beta 4 and it downloaded the opensfx, but in-game it's grayed out and set to "nosound". How can i fix that?
11:54:31  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: currently, that is hardcoded for farm tiles: "if industry-id is valid, grow normally, else finish growth cycle and then disappear"
11:54:32  <WhiteDog> i also can't select Euro as currency, also grayed out :)
11:54:44  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: yep, saw that
11:54:56  <andythenorth> how does having the industry type actually work for us?
11:55:01  <Alberth> WhiteDog: some seetings can only be changed from the intro-screen
11:55:07  <Alberth> *settings
11:55:08  <WhiteDog> k thx :)
11:55:14  <WhiteDog> i'll give it a try
11:55:41  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: bear in mind I don't really understand the internals too much....if there is no industry instance, how does the game use action 2 stuff?
11:55:47  <andythenorth> or action 0 etc
11:56:28  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: like unbuilt vehicles from the vehicle buy window, some variables are not accessible in that case
11:57:35  <Eddi|zuHause> all action0 data is constant for all industries of the same type (i believe), so that can be accessed
11:58:02  <Eddi|zuHause> but things like build date and animation state cannot be accessed
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12:01:08  <andythenorth> so this proposal looks about we code it...together!  :)
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12:02:22  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: code-wise, stuff from IndustrySpec is accessible without a specific Industry instance
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12:03:27  <andythenorth> TrueBrain: nice bananas update :)
12:04:00  <TrueBrain> well, only now the mirror system is how it should be, from that point of view anyway
12:04:26  <Alberth> thank you for your efforts
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12:05:07  <TrueBrain> now I believe we can say 1.0.0 won't kill our bandwidth instanctly :p
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12:05:37  <TrueBrain> it sucks .. 2 weeks ago 2 ISPs emailed that they wanted to mirror our stuff .. never got a reply back after my reply on that :(
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12:08:14  <Alberth> your bag of money was too empty probably.
12:08:45  <TrueBrain> I guess
12:08:48  <TrueBrain> depleted, I would say
12:10:49  <TrueBrain> `' saved [7777/7777]
12:10:50  <TrueBrain> hahahaha :)
12:11:15  <jonty-comp> :o
12:11:39  <Eddi|zuHause> hm, i now have a lap cat
12:12:04  * jonty-comp sits and watches his server thrash about a bit for no apparent reason
12:13:52  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: Obviously the best place in the house, lying on a nicely warm human, getting some attention from the human as well.
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12:15:42  <jonty-comp> you'd think they'd think it through when they make a currency datatype in access
12:15:55  <jonty-comp> but currency is certainly not "Pack Price (ex VAT): ᅵ35.9639990472794"
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12:17:31  <Nite_Owl> Hello all
12:17:34  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: wouldn't it be more useful for a 'greeble' tile to store the industry tile ID?
12:18:12  <Eddi|zuHause> no, it has nothing to do with industry tiles
12:18:21  <andythenorth> ?
12:18:31  <andythenorth> the industry tiles will provide the graphics definition....
12:18:32  <andythenorth> ?
12:18:56  <Eddi|zuHause> no, the industry callback will do that
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12:20:18  <Eddi|zuHause> the industry has two callbacks:
12:20:19  <andythenorth> (I am thinking primarily nfo side)....there is no way I know of for an industry to return graphics for a tile.  It must return a tile ID, for which the tile's action 2 / 3 / realsprite chain then determines graphics...
12:20:20  <Eddi|zuHause> Callback1(IndustryID, IndustryType, AnimationState) => SpriteID
12:20:27  <Eddi|zuHause> Callback2(IndustryID, IndustryType, AnimationState) => next AnimationState
12:20:56  <andythenorth> ok, so returning a sprite ID does make sense
12:22:04  <andythenorth> but it means the industry will need an awful lot of code to deal with tile slopes, special cases for neighbouring tiles etc.  Seems like that should be handled via the existing tile methods for those things :)
12:22:05  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not familiar with industry-NFO
12:22:10  <andythenorth> okey dokey
12:22:21  <andythenorth> I'm not familiar with Openttd trunk :)
12:23:02  <Eddi|zuHause> well, adding TileH to a spriteid should be fairly simple, if the need arises
12:23:55  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm fairly confident, NFO can do that during a varaction2 chain
12:23:59  <andythenorth> yup
12:24:15  <andythenorth> but I can't see how the sprite ID it returns can reference a sprite that doesn't exist?
12:24:46  <andythenorth> the sprite is not defined anywhere, only built-in game sprites (or OpenGFX sprites) would be available :o
12:25:10  <Eddi|zuHause> hm, maybe it needs some Action 1 somewhere
12:25:23  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe it's better to return an IndustryTile ID
12:25:24  <asilv> would it make more sense for callback to return action2 id, instead sprite
12:25:38  <Eddi|zuHause> and then run a callback for that
12:26:44  <Eddi|zuHause> like i said, i'm not familiar with industry-NFO
12:26:49  <andythenorth> :)
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12:28:30  <andythenorth> right now I'm am probably the most familiar-with-industry-nfo person on the planet :o
12:28:44  <andythenorth> unless someone is secretly coding some other large industry set :P
12:28:57  <andythenorth> I still ask for a lot of help though :)
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12:30:33  <Eddi|zuHause> asking for help is not a problem ;)
12:30:56  <Eddi|zuHause> asking for the same kind of help multiple times is :p
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12:32:45  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: so the attraction of re-using the industry tiles is....they do everything we need: animation, shape checks, custom stuff
12:33:16  <andythenorth> they just need to appear to the game as a 'clear' tile when built as greeble
12:35:10  <Eddi|zuHause> so, the industry returns an industrytile (that is probably not used in any industry layout otherwise)
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12:35:40  <Eddi|zuHause> and the industrytile does the appearance and animation callbacks
12:35:44  <andythenorth> yes
12:35:59  <Eddi|zuHause> it must also handle special cases for when the industry was deleted
12:36:01  <andythenorth> whether the tile is used elsewhere is the grf author's problem
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12:36:46  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I believe that the existing routine for handling deletion of fields would mostly work as is
12:37:10  <andythenorth> if industry id is invalid, clean up the tiles...
12:37:27  <Eddi|zuHause> well, yes, but it does not clean them up immediately
12:37:40  <andythenorth> hmmm
12:37:41  <andythenorth> ah
12:38:08  <Eddi|zuHause> it must still do the appearance and animation callbacks, until the animation callback says "repeat cycle" [or something]
12:38:11  <andythenorth> that's why I think that the industry tile ID stuff needs to be 'copied' into the clean tile
12:38:21  <andythenorth> it must be decoupled by the industry
12:38:31  <andythenorth> decoupled from the industry sorry
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12:39:19  <Eddi|zuHause> the industry might even be able to choose whether to clean up the tiles at all
12:39:55  <andythenorth> in my plan, the tile is just seen by the game as 'clean tile (farmland)', and the tile knows how to apply the right graphics
12:40:26  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, while the industry is around, that is probably no problem at all
12:41:45  <Eddi|zuHause> when the industry closes, the grf coder should have three choices: a) clean up the tiles "immediately" [i.e. when the next tileloop touches them], b) finish animation cycle and clean them afterwards [what farm fields currently do] or c) let them stick around forever
12:43:02  *** sunkan [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
12:43:09  <Eddi|zuHause> and if you've come this far, you can think about a periodical Callback3 => area where to "plant" fields
12:43:22  <ccfreak2k> Do either of you know anything about video drivers for SDL?
12:44:05  <Eddi|zuHause> i thought sdl should totally abstract from the driver level?
12:44:30  <ccfreak2k> It does, but internally there's drivers to interface with different systems.
12:44:32  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I like those three choices
12:44:49  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: area to plant?  how would that be specified?
12:44:58  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: dunno...
12:45:28  <andythenorth> neg / pos offsets x and y?  radius?
12:46:02  <Eddi|zuHause> rectangles typically have 4 coordinates, in openttd currently up to 11 bit
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12:46:33  <Eddi|zuHause> that makes 44 bit
12:47:01  <Eddi|zuHause> or you return single tiles and it reruns the callback until you say "stop"
12:47:12  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truebrain * r19037 /extra/balancer/ (7 files): [Balancer] -Add: the source code of our httpd running at
12:47:39  <Eddi|zuHause> then you can do lines, circles, spirals, rectangles as you like
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12:48:05  <Eddi|zuHause> but really, i believe that should be discussed at a later point
12:50:00  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I agree
12:51:21  <andythenorth> it's probably trivial for me to provide a test grf for this...the openttd side....I wouldn't quite know where to start
12:51:43  <andythenorth> I suppose we start with a spec though
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12:54:34  <roboboy> gnight
12:54:57  <TrueBrain> all good things start with a draft ;)
12:56:21  <Rubidium> heh, I already know I wasn't good... no need to reinforce that thought
12:56:25  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: alberth * r19038 /trunk/ (6 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: Move TileArea methods to their own file.
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12:56:51  <Alberth> but before a draft come a few experiments to understand the problem
12:57:22  <TrueBrain> don't think in problems; think in solutions
12:58:05  <Rubidium> aqua regia! :)
12:58:17  <Alberth> if one of these experiments solves the whole challenge, a draft is obsolete before you write it
12:58:37  <Eddi|zuHause> water rules?
13:01:14  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: more like "king's water"
13:01:41  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: that sounds awfully close to "the prototype runs, let's ship it"
13:01:56  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: and that sounds a lot like my day job
13:02:23  <jonty-comp> that is my day job
13:02:25  <andythenorth> when we ship the prototype, we get paid, which means we can make payroll....which means happier developers
13:02:51  <jonty-comp> oh, buggermuffins, I forgot to start the program in safe mode
13:02:56  <Rubidium> that sounds as if bug reports are handled by different developers
13:03:09  * jonty-comp goes to get a coffee while it runs its automated routine
13:03:32  <andythenorth> hey there might be two years of technical debt in fixing the prototype...but at least I got to pay everyone!
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13:04:35  <Eddi|zuHause> as long as you can charge extra for bug fixing :p
13:04:50  *** Zuu [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:05:39  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: ummm....if only :|
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13:13:13  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: alberth * r19039 /trunk/src/smallmap_gui.cpp: -Feature: Add zoom-out to smallmap.
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13:14:53  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: alberth * r19040 /trunk/src/ (landscape.h smallmap_gui.cpp): -Codechange: Introduce inverse function of RemapCoords.
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13:19:58  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: alberth * r19041 /trunk/src/ (smallmap_gui.cpp tilearea.cpp tilearea_type.h): -Codechange: Improve selection of tile to draw in zoomed-out smallmaps.
13:21:33  <TrueBrain> go Alberth go Alberth
13:21:41  <TrueBrain> you think, TrueBrain can do a commit spree, I can do that too? :p
13:22:01  <PeterT> Thanks Alberth for r19039 :-)
13:22:10  <PeterT> quite a useful feature
13:22:18  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: alberth * r19042 /trunk/src/smallmap_gui.cpp: -Add: Allow mousewheel zooming in smallmap.
13:22:23  <PeterT> and r19042!
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13:24:33  <Alberth> TrueBrain: I try to spree commits, but I am not quite as good as you are, I have run out of patches :p
13:24:41  <TrueBrain> darn
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13:29:24  <Eddi|zuHause> there are plenty of patches in the development forum
13:29:35  <TrueBrain> lets randomly commit those :)
13:30:10  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm sure you can squeeze a couple dozen more commits out of the cargodist repo :p
13:30:57  <Eddi|zuHause> has any dev reviewed the more height levels patch?
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13:33:33  <andythenorth> did Terkhen's map colour patch make it into trunk?
13:36:16  * andythenorth can't compile for OS X....will macports save the day :o
13:36:31  <TrueBrain> does it ever?
13:37:58  <andythenorth> TrueBrain: not this time by the looks of it
13:38:06  * andythenorth now needs to learn about lzo2
13:38:51  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: people have been coming to the conclusion that it's easier to compile --without-lzo2
13:39:03  * andythenorth joins the crowd in that
13:39:40  <mib_4tlbyr> Eddi|zuHouse: More height levels patch  is not yet reviewed by devs as it is still at 90% of completion. Will it ever hit trunk? Even if it does not the patch will be finished.
13:39:40  <Alberth> alternatively, you install the lib in a findable place by ./configure, and forget all about it
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13:39:58  <TrueBrain> Alberth: nah, that would be a sane thing to do!
13:40:11  <Alberth> oh, of course. Silly me
13:41:28  <mib_4tlbyr> andythenorth: If you mean the town ratings colours path by terkhen ... no it has not.
13:41:55  <andythenorth> I meant configurable colours for industry mini-map
13:42:09  <Terkhen> andythenorth: first I should recode it, it was written too quickly
13:42:09  <Terkhen> I have been wondering if I should include more colour schemes besides dark green
13:43:25  <PeterT> mib_4tlbyr:
13:43:33  <PeterT> That is what andythenorth is talking about
13:44:58  <mib_4tlbyr> andythenorth: OK. Also, I sent you a pm yesterday about industry seperation on mapgeneration, I missed you by a few minutes on here.
13:45:19  <mib_4tlbyr> PeterT: Thank you.
13:45:28  <PeterT> :-)
13:45:47  <andythenorth> Terkhen: I like all of purple, grey and green.  They all have their appeal ;)
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13:47:10  <andythenorth> mib_4tlbyr: yep got the pm thanks.  I considered that.   Think it would work generally, but not sure for every case....let me see if I can find some of the crazy examples....
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13:49:11  <mib_4tlbyr> It should work on any occasion no ? industries do not check for a free rectangle before being build? I could be wrong ...
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13:54:39  <Terkhen> I'll think about grey, it looks nice but it conflicts with rail colour (and possibly others); that would require more changes
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14:03:46  <rait> has anyone tried compiling with visual studio 2010 beta?
14:03:59  <PeterT> Rubidum has
14:04:05  <rait> did it work?
14:04:07  <PeterT> I *really* wouldn't suggest updating
14:04:14  <PeterT> no, it failed miserabley
14:04:38  <PeterT> there was a picture here:
14:04:44  <Rubidium> yes, not without major problems
14:04:46  <PeterT> but it seems Rubidium already took it off
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14:30:40  <Wakou> Hello folks!
14:30:49  <PeterT> Hello Wakou
14:31:31  <Wakou> First time here, just having a nose about..
14:32:01  <PeterT> Ok :-)
14:32:22  <Wakou> I have been trying to start a game in 1920, but rail and ship condtruction are greyed out, how do I get trains from before 1950?
14:32:39  <PeterT> GRFs
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14:32:59  <Wakou> I have r18964M
14:33:15  <Wakou> which grfs in particular?
14:34:09  <PeterT> NARs?
14:34:11  <PeterT> UKRS?
14:34:48  <Wakou> Ok I have UKRS, I will try to load it back in..(after the Rugby mebbe :)  )
14:34:56  <Wakou> TY PeterT
14:35:06  <PeterT> welcome Wakou
14:35:53  <PeterT> Wakou: ?
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14:36:06  <PeterT> Wakou:
14:39:04  <andythenorth> Wakou: FISH will give you ships from 1870....
14:39:37  <Wakou> TY I have it working now, can't add it retrospective to a saved game?
14:39:50  <PeterT> You can add it to a running game
14:40:12  <Wakou> I tried , but rail is still greyed out
14:41:44  <Wakou> Woot! TY folks, got it now...
14:42:10  <PeterT> Terkhen: You removed _all_ of your batch scripts??
14:42:25  <PeterT> I actually needed the readme.txt to get the GNU tools for something else :-(
14:43:22  <Terkhen> you can get them from the svn
14:44:10  <PeterT> the readme.txt doesn't have that link
14:44:16  <PeterT> or the list of GNU Tools need :-(
14:44:19  <PeterT> *needed
14:45:04  <Terkhen>
14:45:23  <PeterT> there it is :-)
14:45:25  <Terkhen> mind what I said at the howto apply a patch thread
14:45:29  <PeterT> Thansk Terkhen
14:46:00  <PeterT> I see
14:46:02  <Terkhen> you are welcome
14:46:02  <PeterT> *thanks
14:46:22  <PeterT> also, I'm not using the scripts right now, I just need the GNU Tools for unix2dos on the make_bundle
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14:53:56  <rait> is there any magic related to vc2008 and x64? mine doesn't seem to do x64
14:54:07  <jonty-comp> do you have the express version
14:54:13  <rait> yes
14:54:14  <PeterT> Express versions don't have it
14:54:17  <rait> dang
14:54:17  <jonty-comp> mine threw a hissy fit when I tried to compile x64
14:54:28  <PeterT> Just get VS Pro
14:54:37  <PeterT> Very expensive though
14:54:40  <jonty-comp> apparently it's possible, but you have to hack it to pieces and rebuild it as a functioning member of society
14:54:46  <Eddi|zuHause> there's a magic trick for express
14:55:00  <jonty-comp> Microsoft products have lots of magic tricks
14:55:42  <jonty-comp> I couldn't be bothered to work on it though, the x64 version offers little benefit
14:55:57  <jonty-comp> (well, if offers benefits, but I didn't deem it worth the bother :p)
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14:57:31  <Eddi|zuHause> some programs have bugs, some programs have undocumented features, and some programs are from microsoft
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14:58:08  <valhallasw> they have no bugs because of the brilliant programmers and no undocumented features because the EU would sue them to death.
14:58:17  <valhallasw> or... wasn't that what you meant? :p
14:59:21  <TrueBrain> no, the bugs are features
15:00:27  <rait> there's no way i'm paying 0 for it. so ... cross-compiling?
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15:01:49  <TrueBrain> rait: why do you want x64 for windows anyway? :)
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15:02:19  <rait> no reason, just like the sound of it
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15:02:57  <PeterT> I would love to be able to service both win32 and x64 users, but Express doesn't allow it, and MSVCPro breaks when I try to install it
15:03:05  <Eddi|zuHause> [Mittwoch, 3. Februar 2010] [23:31:24] <glx>
15:03:45  <PeterT> Eddi|zuHause: That doesn't work
15:03:54  <PeterT> I don't have the registry value they asked for
15:04:14  <glx> that works
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15:10:24  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: alberth * r19043 /trunk/src/smallmap_gui.cpp: -Doc: Dcoumenting the GetSmallMapPixels typedef.
15:19:09  <jonty-comp> can't you compile x64 in mingw?
15:19:40  <PeterT> yes, you can
15:19:48  <PeterT> but you don't get any useful crashlogs
15:19:59  <jonty-comp> I suppose
15:20:16  <PeterT> also, jonty-comp, I reset the server at #jonty
15:20:54  <TrueBrain> mingw x64 support is very ... euh ... ongoing :p
15:21:02  <TrueBrain> only last year that they started to add it
15:21:07  <TrueBrain> somehow they thought it wouldn't catch on :p
15:22:38  <jonty-comp> sounds like wine x64
15:22:51  <TrueBrain> feb 2009 to be exact
15:23:20  <andythenorth> do the bananas download counts need to include the string 'times'?  It's kind of redundant; the number would do...
15:23:35  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: only the number is not really clear nor intuitive
15:23:54  <andythenorth> I suppose if you have scrolled the page you don't see the th anymore
15:24:01  <TrueBrain> exactly
15:24:33  <andythenorth> well, to UK eyes, comma-thousands would improve that.  but that doesn't work for all locales?  Some people use different separators?
15:24:46  <TrueBrain> for a website that is not important
15:24:49  <TrueBrain> but that would not solve the problem
15:25:02  <TrueBrain> if there was only a number, you would need to look up to the header to see what it means
15:25:10  <TrueBrain> now you make a simple assumption, which turns out to be true
15:25:17  <andythenorth> no....leaving 'times' present is fine, I just wanted to improve the formatting :)
15:25:36  <TrueBrain> you said: 'would improve _that_' ;)
15:25:45  <andythenorth> my mistake
15:25:52  <andythenorth> typing before thinking!
15:25:54  <TrueBrain> but a thousand seperator can be added yes ;)
15:26:16  <andythenorth> django might support that 'out of the box' from what I was reading earlier
15:26:20  <jonty-comp> ooh, 7 IPv6 servers
15:26:44  * jonty-comp nitpicks
15:27:09  <andythenorth> also, right-align for numbers might be better, even with the 'times' suffix present...
15:27:16  <jonty-comp> the "Download testing (1.0.0-beta4)" goes outside its bounding box my a pixel!
15:27:20  <jonty-comp> in webkit
15:27:21  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: django has something for that, yes
15:27:42  <TrueBrain> jonty-comp: then lets hope we release 1.0.0 soon
15:27:43  <andythenorth> any chance of bringing the website css under svn control?
15:27:44  <TrueBrain> or RC1
15:27:52  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: very little atm
15:27:56  <andythenorth> k
15:28:24  <andythenorth> I suppose inline css on tags / css defined in the page is bad form?
15:28:28  <jonty-comp> TrueBrain: surely then the testing release will soon be 1.0.1-beta1 or whatever :P
15:28:48  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: a diff for the css files would be better
15:28:56  <andythenorth> seems reasonable
15:28:57  <TrueBrain> jonty-comp: did you know every day there is another background image on the index page?
15:29:31  <jonty-comp> nein
15:29:47  * andythenorth has to choose whether to (a) try and learn some more C++ to improve industry separation or (b) write some more html / css which I've been doing for 10 years :o
15:30:10  <TrueBrain> I do both for almost 15 years now .. can I suggest neither?
15:30:26  <andythenorth> only if you've got a better suggestion....
15:30:32  * jonty-comp backs the 'neither' suggestion
15:30:34  <TrueBrain> OpenDUNE! :p
15:30:39  <TrueBrain> haha :)
15:30:42  <jonty-comp> and I've been doing both of them for 2 years!
15:30:46  <TrueBrain> of course my correct answer should have been: html /css
15:33:26  <andythenorth> I've probably got more chance of success with that
15:33:35  <andythenorth> but this bugs me:
15:33:39  <valhallasw> I suggest learning IDL. Or R. Both are very effective in making you suicidal.
15:34:05  <TrueBrain> valhallasw: IDL is not that bad .... try IRAF :p
15:34:36  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: image looks nice :)
15:34:48  <andythenorth> umm
15:35:52  <rait> asdf the registry keys don't exist
15:35:57  <andythenorth> does this surprisingly often (one industry fills the gaps in another - the gaps are for stations)
15:35:57  <andythenorth>
15:36:10  <valhallasw> TrueBrain: oh, yeah. I switched to pyraf.
15:36:34  <valhallasw> which is the usefulness of iraf minus the free suicide notes
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15:38:18  * Terkhen should change his ISP
15:38:23  <TrueBrain> yes
15:38:46  <TrueBrain> (hihi)
15:39:53  <Ammler> andythenorth: isn't that "solved" with using fewer industries on map generation?
15:40:38  <Zuu> Does anyone know a button that change sprite when they get pressed? WWT_IMGBTN_2 is supposed to be like that but I can't find any usage of that feature where you can see how the second sprite is set.
15:40:46  <Terkhen> last time I asked no ISP besides my current one had coverage here :/
15:41:00  <Alberth> Zuu: sprite number + 1
15:41:01  <TrueBrain> sucks ....
15:41:08  <Zuu> Alberth: Ok
15:41:08  <Ammler> or it looks like a bug in FIRS, but with all ECS vectors, we were never able to have so many industries that close.
15:41:33  <andythenorth> Ammler: wouldn't it be rude for a newgrf to force players to choose 'very low' for their game options?
15:41:43  <andythenorth> Yes it's a bug....we coded far too many types of industries :|
15:41:53  <Zuu> Alberth: And if you want to have them in reverse, that is not possible?
15:42:02  <andythenorth> I should delete some more industries from FIRS :x
15:42:08  <andythenorth> problem solved
15:42:13  <Alberth> Zuu: only possible if you swap the sprites
15:42:15  <Ammler> hmm, more than all ECS vectors?
15:42:28  <Alberth> Zuu: or you must make a new image button class
15:44:35  <andythenorth> Ammler: this is from a 128x128 map with 'low' industry.  Max 1 instance of each type gets built, several aren't built at all
15:44:35  <andythenorth>
15:44:44  <andythenorth> still the same issue....
15:44:47  <andythenorth> :D
15:44:57  <Alberth> Zuu: widget.cpp, line 244
15:44:59  <Zuu> Im trying to make a small toggle button for turning on/off the break string in the AI Debug window. (for my patch) I think it will be most logical to a user if it is in on state when the button is in the lower state.
15:45:10  <Zuu> Alberth: Thanks.
15:45:31  <Ammler> andythenorth: well, why not tell the people to use very low?
15:45:42  <Alberth> Zuu: why not lower the button by default?
15:46:20  <Ammler> andythenorth: don't you think, someone could like to make adjacent industries?
15:46:22  <andythenorth> Ammler: this is from a similar 128x128 map with low
15:46:22  <andythenorth>
15:46:32  <andythenorth> 17 of 36 industries aren't built at all on this map
15:46:57  <Zuu> Hmm, I haven't really decided on how to make the button. I was thinking about (ab)using the vehicle start/stop icon.
15:47:00  * Alberth ponders to add 'none' to industry generation to fix andy his problems
15:47:16  <Ammler> andythenorth: lol, this is a very nice screen
15:47:31  <Zuu> Oh, the stoped sprite is first in the sprites.h file.
15:47:35  <Ammler> openttd does play tetris
15:47:38  <andythenorth> Alberth: I can probably manage that myself: rm firs * or something
15:48:17  <Ammler> andythenorth: you would need to make rm /dev/internet
15:48:29  <Ammler> as there are several copies around the world ;-)
15:48:39  <Zuu> The idea with the button is to be able to temporarily disable the break string so you don't need to clear it.
15:49:09  <Zuu> But it can be made so it is lowered by default. Less changes needed that way.
15:49:32  <Zuu> I don't really know how I would like to make it anyways.. :-)
15:49:45  <Ammler> Alberth: none is already part, btw.
15:49:52  <andythenorth> Ammler: I'm pretty certain that patching magic tile 0xFF will be able to solve the problem :)
15:50:02  <andythenorth> I need to extend the if statements around GFX_WATERTILE_SPECIALCHECK
15:50:20  <Alberth> Ammler: nice, someone was thinking ahead :p
15:50:37  <andythenorth> but I'm worried that there will be an edge case that is insoluble (something to do with coasts)
15:51:13  <Ammler> andythenorth: maybe the difference to ECS is, that there are a lot more clauses about placement
15:51:37  <andythenorth> ECS probably has numerous checks.  But ECS is legendarily slow during map generation as well
15:51:54  <Ammler> indeed
15:51:56  <andythenorth> PBI can show the same behaviour as FIRS
15:52:02  <Ammler> and I use very low also for ECS
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15:52:44  <Ammler> Alberth: maybe a "really very slow" setting?
15:52:53  <Ammler> -
15:52:54  <Ammler> s
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15:54:09  <Ammler> andythenorth: just don't forget the scenario builders ;-)
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15:54:31  <andythenorth> Ammler:  :O what do *they* need
15:54:57  <Ammler> for example possibility to place 2 mines close to each other
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15:56:09  <andythenorth> Ammler: If I can find a solution to this separation issue, I'm not going to add special support just for that scenario case.  They can lump it frankly :)
15:58:18  <andythenorth> hmmm....maybe there is another way, as suggested by mib_4tlbyr
15:58:23  <Ammler> well, the issue is that player use the wrong generating setting and you like to help those.
15:59:09  <Ammler> but not sure, if that is the issue for the newgrf author.
15:59:09  <andythenorth> Ammler: no, really, the issue is that either the game or the newgrf author need to enforce some separation between industries.  The effect occurs at all industry levels except 'none' ;)
15:59:56  <andythenorth> frosch123: I am about to add a bunch of code for enforcing industry separation in FIRS.  You were strongly of the opinion that the game should take care of that??
16:00:21  <frosch123> andythenorth: different suggestion, patch GeneratorIndustries and PlaceInitialIndustry to consider the number of industries available
16:00:47  <andythenorth> what implications / effects would that have?
16:01:09  <frosch123> i.e. currently "very low" -> "very low number of industries per type". maybe it should be instead  "very low number of industries in total"
16:01:37  <Ammler> FIRS is also not a newgrf for 128² map
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16:02:16  <frosch123> however i do not understand the "number of industries" computation. looks like the densitiy setting has no effect sometimes
16:02:39  <frosch123> very weird piece of code :)
16:02:51  <andythenorth> Ammler: true, but it's hardly a decent set if it forces the player to use a certain: size of map, number of industries, and probably not mountainous or high sea either :|
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16:03:11  <Ammler> frosch123: might it be differ between newgrf industries and default?
16:04:04  <Ammler> andythenorth: it doesn't force the people, but people should accept some consequences the choice has.
16:04:55  <andythenorth> Ammler: such as not being able to construct routes without excessive tunneling :o
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16:05:08  <Ammler> I test with 512² maps, I need to use very low for all industry newgrfs
16:05:16  <andythenorth> no they'll just reject the set.  FIRS is intended as a credible replacement for default industries ;)
16:05:56  <Ammler> andythenorth: I once suggested such a economy level ;-)
16:06:21  <andythenorth> Ammler: we'll name that one after you :)
16:06:29  <andythenorth> but it will still place industries overlapping etc.
16:06:36  <frosch123> [17:01] <andythenorth> frosch123: I am about to add a bunch of code for enforcing industry separation in FIRS.  You were strongly of the opinion that the game should take care of that?? <- taking a look at your screenshots, quite some of them might need handling by the grf. e.g. the oil wells inside the other industry
16:06:45  <andythenorth> frosch123: I have a plan....
16:07:00  * andythenorth is going to have some tiresome questions about tile var 60
16:07:02  <frosch123> also, reading the specs, they do not mention "water" at all ...
16:07:09  <frosch123> (for 0xFF)
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16:07:29  <andythenorth> frosch123: industry_cmd.cpp
16:07:50  <frosch123> and the .asm ?
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16:08:35  <andythenorth> .asm?
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16:10:07  * Ammler just made PBI map with high density, seems not have that effect.
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16:11:09  <Ammler> so it simply depense on the number of different industries?
16:11:48  <frosch123> (amount > NB_NUMOFINDUSTRY) ? amount : _numof_industry_table[_settings_game.difficulty.number_industries][amount] <- those tests look weird to me :)
16:13:43  <PeterT> #openttd is the 5th most populated channel on OFTC
16:14:30  <andythenorth> Ammler:
16:14:34  <andythenorth> setting: high
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16:14:50  <andythenorth> ;)
16:15:50  <PeterT> andythenorth: What size map is that on?
16:15:55  <PeterT> the location_suck_PBI
16:16:09  <andythenorth> 256 x 256
16:16:25  <andythenorth> try it in arctic, it's worse due to industries that are snowline sensitive
16:16:40  <andythenorth> PBI is *not* as bad as FIRS though
16:18:45  <Ammler> and pbi doesn't matter anyway, as most industries disapear before you are able to connect them ;-)
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16:19:26  <Ammler> some disapear also if connected...
16:19:26  <andythenorth> hmmm
16:19:58  <Alberth> Ammler: primary industry does that afaik
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16:20:22  <andythenorth> hmmm......all I need is tile 0xFF, but with added control over the placement of that tile via a varaction 2.
16:20:26  <Ammler> the engineer yard does it, too.
16:20:41  <andythenorth> What happens if I modify tile 0xFF in an action 0?
16:21:42  <andythenorth> hmmm...also why can tile 0xFF have negative offsets in an industry layout in action 0, but other tiles can't?
16:22:33  <frosch123> because offset 0 has to be the north-most tile, and 0xFF does not place tiles
16:22:33  <Rubidium> because for destroying an industry it looks at the northern most tile and then to the south
16:23:07  <andythenorth> makes sense
16:23:35  <andythenorth> I don't want to place tiles, I want to see if tiles *could* be placed :)
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16:27:02  <andythenorth> this would do....
16:27:09  <andythenorth> excuse the syntax etc
16:27:28  <andythenorth> that's industry_cmd.cpp
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16:43:59  * andythenorth punts an idea
16:48:13  <frosch123> fe is a very bad idea :p
16:49:20  <andythenorth> ho.  why?
16:49:34  <frosch123> because fe,w is used for new tiles
16:49:42  <andythenorth> oops
16:50:05  <andythenorth> is the concept flawed, or just the choice of ID?
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16:54:22  <PeterT> can someone tell me, is this true?
16:54:24  <PeterT>
16:57:28  <PeterT> from #OpenTTDMegaClan
16:57:42  <SpComb^> PeterT: not enough context to understand what they're talking about... patching NewGRFs?
16:57:51  <PeterT> Hmm
16:58:36  <PeterT> "Mega" says that he and others (Luukland's and Ex's) are going to abandon OpenTTD because OpenTTD 1.0.0 is "blocked" from being patch
16:58:40  <PeterT> what patch, I'm not sure
16:58:52  <PeterT> Luukland/Ex's dont give out their source code
16:58:56  <PeterT> which is stupid
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16:59:32  <Ammler> oh well, they have "issues" with the base costs. :-)
16:59:52  <SpComb^> PeterT: I think they're talking about limitations on server-side patches
17:00:02  <frosch123> they have issues with some "fix", see flyspray
17:00:06  <SpComb^> PeterT: i.e. previously, you could change stuff on the server, and it would work on the clients without them being patched
17:00:08  <PeterT> what limitations?
17:00:18  <PeterT> and now you can't?
17:00:24  <PeterT> that's absurd!
17:00:43  <SpComb^> I haven't looked at the changes that much, but there's some changes to savegame/settings loading that make that invalid, I guess
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17:01:17  <SpComb^> I mean, it's still GPL, so you're still free to patch the codebase, and then run the custom version on the server/client
17:01:21  * Ammler likes the changes, advantages overweight
17:01:48  <Rubidium> ah well... their problem is basically with our new pool code
17:02:33  <PeterT> do you have any idea about which nightly caused this?
17:02:36  <Rubidium> with the new pool code invalid companies are 'NULL', previously they were 'garbage'
17:02:38  <PeterT> revision, I mean
17:03:11  <Ammler> more than one, iirc
17:03:38  <Rubidium> previously giving a wrong company would just cause the command to fail, now sending the wrong company could crash OpenTTD which meant we have made the command checking more strict
17:04:20  <Rubidium> and now they want to turn off the command checking on clients, although I fear they haven't understand how OpenTTD's protocol works and that that change opens up all clients for DoS attacks
17:04:25  *** devilsadvocate [~devilsadv@] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:04:56  <Ammler> they once asked me, if it is possible to change basecost to negative like you have for selling tracks.
17:04:58  <jonty-comp> oh well, they sound like the kind of people you wouldn't miss anyway
17:05:28  <SpComb^> well, there is a point in letting servers tweak gameplay stuff
17:05:33  <SpComb^> but it's called "NewGRFs" or such :)
17:05:40  <Ammler> so players do clean up what they build
17:05:41  <jonty-comp> yes
17:05:48  <jonty-comp> people always want more than they're given :p
17:05:51  <PeterT> but commands like !name
17:05:59  <PeterT> on Luukland's servers
17:06:04  <PeterT> would those still be possible
17:06:10  <Ammler> why not?
17:06:36  <SpComb^> perhaps my phrasing of "change stuff on the server" was a little too broad
17:07:24  <Ammler> PeterT: autopilot does such things
17:07:37  <PeterT> Ammler: Not everyone has Linux, Ammler
17:08:23  <Ammler> well, I mean, if you can do that with a tcl wrapper, it should also be possible with other apps.
17:08:25  <SpComb^> I'm sure you can stuff patch around in the things like chat handling
17:08:59  <Ammler> SpComb^: afaik the goal servers do that already.
17:09:00  <jonty-comp> I don't quite see why you would patch text-commands into the server binary in the first place
17:09:11  <jonty-comp> unless you extended the scripting part to accomodate such things
17:09:25  <SpComb^> jonty-comp: I think it's perfectly valid... indeed, it would be nice if there was more in-game scripting available for it
17:09:32  <SpComb^> things like autopilot are a little clumsy
17:10:16  <PeterT> SpComb^: Something like IRC Scripting
17:10:45  <SpComb^> like, I doubt the output format of the console commands is considered to be a stable interface, yet autopilot-like scripts would be sure to fall apart into pieces if the output was changed
17:10:48  <Ammler> that is the main usage of Autopilot
17:10:55  <PeterT> if channel::say !name $NAME, exec client_name $ID $NAME
17:11:07  <SpComb^> PeterT: IRC is very clumsy as well
17:11:20  <PeterT> What do you mean by that?
17:11:41  <SpComb^> the protocol... but it's all that relevant
17:15:02  <Chris_Booth> Ammler: why you refing to AP when AV is going to be used very soon?
17:15:31  <Ammler> oh, Avignon is the follower
17:15:53  <Ammler> and it could easy take another year for the first release of it ;-)
17:16:19  <PeterT> v0.2 has Windows Support!
17:16:24  <PeterT> I am quite excited for that
17:16:37  <Ammler> well, tcl has windows support
17:17:13  <Ammler> but we use some "exec" commands in ap+, that is why it isn't windows compatible
17:17:36  <PeterT> what do exec commands do?
17:17:49  <Ammler> run linux commands
17:18:00  <PeterT> ah
17:20:18  <Ammler> I guess, it wouldn't be that hard to make it again windows compatible, first Autopilot was too
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17:21:55  <jonty-comp> I don't see any particular reason to make it windows compatible
17:21:56  <PeterT> Ammler: What does AP have to execute that is only executable on Linux?
17:22:05  <Ammler> but it is easyier to setup a linux
17:22:18  <jonty-comp> it'd be far easier to bodge it into working into cygwin or something
17:22:33  <jonty-comp> but then, I should think 95% of openttd dedicated servers run on linux anyway
17:22:41  <Ammler> PeterT: I have no idea
17:22:46  <jonty-comp> not like these silly commercial games that make you buy windows servers D:
17:23:05  <Ammler> that would need someone setup it on windows and complain/feedback
17:23:29  <Ammler> the "exec" commands are special openttdcoop comamnds for save transfer and such.
17:23:44  <Ammler> base AP+ shouldn't have it.
17:25:05  <Ammler> the only exec in AP+ should be something like "exec openttd -D..." which also works on windows ;-)
17:25:07  * andythenorth has a new magic tile
17:25:48  <PeterT> So, All I need is TCL installed, then I can run AutoPilot?
17:26:04  <Ammler> you can at least try, yes.
17:26:14  <Ammler> ActiveTCL or such is recommend
17:26:33  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19044 /trunk/src/saveload/saveload.cpp: -Codechange: don't load the 'new game' NewGRFs when you're certain the savegame wouldn't have been saved with them, i.e. don't load the 'new game' NewGRFs for TTO savegames.
17:27:10  <jonty-comp> I thought it needed that Expect package too
17:27:24  <Ammler> yes, but I am sure, TCL will tell you that.
17:28:05  <PeterT> Does the #openttdcoop wiki have instructions on setting it up, Ammler/jonty-comp?
17:28:19  <Ammler> did you search for?
17:28:24  <PeterT> I am looking atm
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17:41:33  <PeterT> glx?
17:41:38  <PeterT> How do you use convert.exe
17:42:02  <PeterT> I've tried in command, but there was some "wrong drive specified" error
17:42:45  <Ammler> do nopaste the output
17:42:59  <PeterT> ?
17:43:33  <Ammler> paste the console to a pastebin service
17:43:36  <PeterT> hm, wait
17:43:38  <PeterT> now it works
17:43:43  <PeterT> what is the point of this?
17:44:14  <Ammler> not explained where you got the link to convert.exe?
17:44:42  <PeterT> Am
17:44:46  <PeterT> Ammler:
17:44:51  <PeterT> I was reading the wiki
17:45:31  <Ammler> "app that converts openttd.exe from GUI to console (and vice versa)."
17:45:53  <Ammler> expect needs openttd to be a console app
17:46:11  <PeterT> ok, so I just run this convert.exe and it will work?
17:46:21  <Ammler> puh, maybe?
17:46:24  <Fauxdem> :s
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17:46:47  <Ammler> run openttd.exe in the console
17:46:59  <Ammler> with -h
17:47:05  <PeterT> what for?
17:47:10  <Ammler> the gui method opens a windows
17:47:14  <PeterT> yes, it does
17:47:23  <PeterT> and the console method just outputs in the command box?
17:47:24  <Ammler> the other one should output to the console
17:47:40  <Ammler> that is how it happens here.
17:47:43  <glx> just run it from the dir where openttd.exe is
17:48:08  <glx> in cmd of course
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17:48:42  <glx> cd /path/to/openttd.exe
17:48:48  <glx> convert.exe
17:48:50  <glx> that's all
17:49:12  * andythenorth might have solved industry clearance issue with a patch that doesn't build tile if ID is 0xAF
17:49:19  <Ammler> isn't it "\"?
17:49:21  <PeterT> glx: thanks, it works
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17:49:40  <PeterT> also, glx, it works just by double-click
17:49:50  <Ammler> PeterT: really, also AP+?
17:49:55  <glx> if in the same dir as openttd.exe yes
17:50:00  <PeterT> No, convert.exe
17:50:04  <PeterT> yes :-)
17:50:25  <glx> it toggles console/GUI
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17:50:39  <glx> if console then it becomes GUI and vice versa
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18:10:28  * andythenorth bravely posts a diff to the forums :o
18:12:28  <TrueBrain> NOOOO! Now you broke it! :(
18:12:52  <andythenorth> meh
18:18:49  <Alberth> only the forums
18:19:26  <andythenorth> yep, all of them at once.
18:19:37  <andythenorth> but including the development forum
18:19:44  * andythenorth is brain frazzled
18:19:54  <andythenorth> I should draw boats and stop trying to patch trunk
18:19:58  <Alberth> I suspected as much :p
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18:21:43  <PeterT> andythenorth: Your patch is missing an 'Index: *.cpp' at the top
18:22:55  <Ammler> is that a svn feature?
18:23:29  <Alberth> Ammler: not here
18:23:34  <andythenorth> fixed that
18:23:34  <andythenorth>
18:23:53  <PeterT> Thanks andy
18:26:09  <andythenorth> PeterT:  I added a version of FIRS for that patch to the forum post
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18:26:29  <PeterT> Ok
18:26:33  <PeterT> I will test it right now
18:26:47  <PeterT> have you tested it yet, andythenorth?
18:26:55  <andythenorth> yes
18:27:25  <PeterT> works?
18:28:28  <andythenorth> yes
18:28:33  <Tulitoma1tti> &w last
18:31:01  <Alberth> andythenorth: +	/* 0xFF should be GFX_WATERTILE_SPECIALCHECK; 0xAF should be GFX_LANDTILE_SPECIALCHECK   <-- has a space at the end
18:31:40  <PeterT> andythenorth: I already have a firs nightly, do I need that one?
18:31:52  <PeterT> it's not the absoulute latest though
18:32:00  <Alberth> also, you can add a assert_compile() check to ensure that comment holds.
18:33:41  <andythenorth> PeterT: you need that FIRS.  Other versions don't try and use original tile 0xAF (would be a bad idea)!
18:33:46  <andythenorth> Alberth: thanks
18:33:52  <PeterT> Ok, i'll download it then
18:35:32  <andythenorth> Alberth: can you explain the assert further?
18:37:37  <Alberth> horrible things happen when that comment does not hold. To ensure you cannot break it, add assert_compile(GFX_WATERTILE_SPECIALCHECK == 0xFF && GFX_LANDTILE_SPECIALCHECK == 0xAF);    in some .cpp file.  The compiler will abort if the condition does not hold.
18:38:15  *** |Jeroen| [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:38:32  <Alberth> ie it is like an assert(), except while compiling instead of while executing code.
18:39:27  <Zuu> For rectangles in OpenTTD does .right stand for the rightmost pixel that is painted or the pixel to the right of that pixel?
18:39:53  <Zuu> Eg is right = left + width OR left + width - 1
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18:40:16  <Alberth> right is the last pixel being painted
18:40:46  <Alberth> ie right == left + width - 1
18:41:01  <Alberth> for width > 0 of course
18:42:28  <PeterT> excuse me, andythenorth? what revision is that firs-nightly?
18:43:00  <andythenorth> PeterT: think it's 579M
18:43:04  <PeterT> M?
18:43:06  <PeterT> why M?
18:43:16  <Zuu> Alberth: Okay. I'm trying to implement centering of sprites in buttons when the buttons are bigger than the sprites.
18:43:48  <PeterT> wow, firs has doubled in size since I last updated
18:43:52  <Zuu> Is there a way to force a widget to have aspect ratio 1:1 without knowing either the exact height or width?
18:43:52  <andythenorth> Alberth: I've replaced that diff, incorporated changes
18:44:28  <PeterT> damn, now I must re-compile :-(
18:44:37  <PeterT> what are the proper settings to test with, andythenorth?
18:44:47  <andythenorth> PeterT: settings of what?
18:44:51  <PeterT> map gen?
18:44:54  <andythenorth> any
18:44:59  <andythenorth> except industry none ;)
18:45:27  <andythenorth> it's only a proof of concept right now, only the textile mill has the clearance check, and then only on the SE side
18:45:30  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r19045 /trunk/src/lang/ (5 files):
18:45:30  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:30  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: danish - 1 changes by beruic
18:45:30  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: japanese - 38 changes by PouncingAnt
18:45:30  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: turkish - 77 changes by niw3
18:45:31  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: ukrainian - 1 changes by Madvin
18:45:31  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: vietnamese - 154 changes by myquartz
18:45:36  <PeterT> wow, this looks much better, andythenorth
18:45:45  <Alberth> Zuu: no, and it may be less than trivial to implement that.
18:46:15  <Alberth> s/less than /non-/
18:46:55  <andythenorth> PeterT: ^^ only the textile mill has any clearance checks
18:47:01  <Alberth> Zuu: The widgets kind of assume that height and width are not related.
18:47:11  <PeterT> why? what about the other industries?
18:48:00  <PeterT> I don't see any _bad_ locations for industires
18:48:06  <andythenorth> you got lucky
18:48:11  <andythenorth> is your map very flat?
18:48:17  <Alberth> try again :)
18:48:38  <PeterT> yes, andy
18:48:46  <andythenorth> try it on hilly or mountainous
18:48:51  <PeterT> sure
18:49:28  <PeterT> Ok, this is much much worse
18:49:45  <andythenorth> yup
18:50:12  <PeterT> AIs...trying to build through industries instead of around them...
18:50:14  <andythenorth> see why I've been moaning about it for the last week?
18:50:31  <andythenorth> It's bad enough to make me learn how to patch trunk.
18:50:43  <PeterT> what's this stupid debug?
18:51:00  <andythenorth> PeterT where?  In industry windows?
18:51:06  <PeterT> yes
18:51:40  <andythenorth> That's about 2 days work screwing with newgrf registers to get some kind of useful debug output for testing :P
18:51:50  <andythenorth> it won't be in a release version
18:51:56  <PeterT> ok
18:52:20  <PeterT> also, what's the point of compiling mac osx binaries when you can just as easily run openttd with wine?
18:52:44  <andythenorth> PeterT: don't start that debate.  We did that last night ;)
18:52:53  <PeterT> Really?
18:52:55  <PeterT> hmm.
18:53:09  * PeterT goes and looks at the logs
18:53:19  <PeterT> I wasn't here yesterday at all
18:53:21  <andythenorth> it was in #openttdcoop.devzone planetmaker disagreed with me strongly.  I advocated wine (crossover).  Then
18:53:48  <andythenorth> then I tested again, and it's not a good solution, skippy, poor scrolling, uses 40% cpu vs. 20% for native mac openttd
18:54:11  <andythenorth> anyway, afk
19:02:25  <Eddi|zuHause> what's the time (in amount of ticks) between two visits of a tile in the tileloop?
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19:11:49  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: in src/train_cmd.cpp:521:Train::GetAcceleration(): bool maglev = this->GetAccelerationType() == 2; <-- is this not updated to the new railtypes yet, is this planned? a similar check would probably be needed for rack railways to use a different friction model
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19:14:07  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: that is the acceleration type, not the railtype
19:14:14  *** welterde [~welterde@2001:470:1f0b:592:ff:0:1:3] has joined #openttd
19:14:30  <frosch123> there is a separate property for acceleration type, and 2 means maglev-like
19:14:57  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, and possibly we need another one for rack-driven?
19:15:20  <Terkhen> rail friction should go into GetRollingFriction, which currently returns a const value
19:16:07  <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: the problematic case is max_te, not the friction itself
19:16:30  <frosch123> and the tileloop is run for 1/256 of the tiles every tick
19:16:54  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: does that mean each tile is visited every 256 ticks?
19:17:05  <frosch123> i guess so :)
19:18:23  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: alberth * r19046 /trunk/src/smallmap_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Move retrieval of tile colour data in smallmap.
19:19:01  <Eddi|zuHause> is there an overflow-safe version of ++?
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19:19:52  <frosch123> OverflowSafeInt ?
19:20:05  <frosch123> (in ottd)
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19:20:54  <andythenorth> Alberth: (apologies if you're the wrong person to ask)...I think my patch is a nasty hack on an old tile...I would much rather use a special flag in action 0 to indicate a tile shouldn't actually be built.  Opinions?
19:21:23  <Alberth> none at all, I cannot even decode your question :p
19:21:45  <andythenorth> hey ho
19:21:59  <andythenorth> let me try again
19:22:05  <andythenorth> or not
19:22:43  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: alberth * r19047 /trunk/src/smallmap_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Use GetEffectiveTileType() in all GetSmallMapPixels routines.
19:23:02  <Alberth> better find another dev :)
19:23:32  <andythenorth> and my next question goes to....frosch123  :)
19:23:35  <Eddi|zuHause> he wants (for industrytiles) a flag that says "when this is part of an industry layout, do not place an industry tile"
19:23:40  <andythenorth> exactly
19:24:03  <Eddi|zuHause> to have customisable versions of tile 0xFF
19:24:17  <Eddi|zuHause> like callbacks that are run on industry construction
19:24:36  <andythenorth> I think it's cleaner than fooling around with special magic on an unused tile such as 0xAF which I currently have a working patch for
19:24:40  <frosch123> what is the use of that? there is no location check for industrytiles
19:24:49  <andythenorth> cb 2f
19:24:49  <frosch123> so, how do you customize it?
19:25:04  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: alberth * r19048 /trunk/src/smallmap_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Pass the already queried effective tile type to the GetSmallMapPixels routines.
19:25:39  <frosch123> ok :)
19:26:00  * andythenorth is 99% certain this is actually a good proposal, not a crazy one
19:26:55  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: src/core/overflowsafe_type.hpp:typedef OverflowSafeInt<int64, INT64_MAX, INT64_MIN> OverflowSafeInt64; <-- so if i wanted an OverflowSafeByte i'd declare that as OverflowSafeInt<byte,0,255>?
19:27:44  <frosch123> better switch 0 and 255 :)
19:27:50  <Eddi|zuHause> oh
19:28:06  <Eddi|zuHause> weird ;)
19:30:24  <Eddi|zuHause> there doesn't happen to be a BYTE_MAX?
19:30:57  <andythenorth> frosch123: proposal 2
19:30:59  <frosch123> maybe INT8_MAX :)
19:31:15  <Eddi|zuHause> UINT8_MAX seems to exist
19:32:23  <frosch123> andythenorth: proposal 2 sounds fine
19:32:52  <andythenorth> I managed to hack at proposal 1, I'm not sure I'll be able to safely hack at newgrf properties...
19:33:27  <andythenorth> do I have to consider TTDP as well?
19:35:40  <frosch123> how do you mean? obviously it will not work in ttdp unless someone codes it
19:37:04  <andythenorth> is there any serious attempt to maintain compatibility?  Or can we just add properties as we see fit?
19:37:21  <andythenorth> (FIRS is not TTDP compatible)
19:37:42  <frosch123> adding a bit to prop 12 is no problem
19:38:01  <andythenorth> good :)
19:39:07  <frosch123> and maintaining compatibility is kind of hard if noone maintains ttdp
19:39:57  <frosch123> but you might please wallyweb, by posting the suggestion into "newgrf technical" instead of "ottd whatever"
19:40:45  <frosch123> resp. ask some moderator to move your topic
19:41:42  <andythenorth> ok thanks.
19:41:51  <andythenorth> time for dinner :)  italian
19:41:55  <andythenorth> bye!
19:42:30  <frosch123> s/italian/programmerian/
19:42:53  <Eddi|zuHause> i should get something to eat too. but each time i open the door, the cats jump at me...
19:43:11  <frosch123> shoot them
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19:45:00  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: go through the window
19:46:02  <Alberth> throw them some other food
19:49:28  <Zuu> Hmm, making code that centers the images in image-buttons without breaking the current image buttons are quite hard. The landscape buttons has a different size of the depressed images. :-)
19:50:48  <Rubidium> you'll notice that that happens in (many) other places too, e.g. the toolbars
19:51:56  <Zuu> So, the only way to introduce that without breaking old buttons would be to create a new button type.
19:52:31  <Eddi|zuHause> or a flag in the widget? draw_image_centered?
19:53:53  *** Zahl_ [~Zahl@2002:4e34:4a84:1:24d4:eaa:669:12fb] has joined #openttd
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19:54:14  <Eddi|zuHause> could also be a compile time flag (i.e. template)
19:54:42  <Alberth> How does drawing the image centered break current buttons?
19:55:02  <Eddi|zuHause> add offsets where they don't belong?
19:55:33  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: doesn't work, you don't know how big a button is going to be
19:55:35  <Zuu> Alberth: The images don't get drawn exactly at the same location for all current buttons.
19:56:18  <Alberth> True, images gets drawn 1 pixel to the right and down on a lowered button
19:56:27  <Zuu> Biggest problem I have is when the lower state image is one pixel bigger/smaller than the non-lowered state image.
19:57:24  <Zuu> If both images are of the same size it is not too hard to make the lowered image one pixel right/down from the center.
19:57:26  <Alberth> check the lowered size too, and never draw at or beyond that position?
19:57:27  <frosch123> grfs define two properties for an image: the size and the relative position. so for centering you could either draw the image with the relative origin in the center (which is just not true for original graphics), or you could ignore the relative offset and always center wrt. topleft and bottomright
19:58:00  <frosch123> also there are certain "button" which might draw stuff non-centered. e.g. the resizebox, or the window decorations
19:59:20  <Zuu> I think I'll put it on hold for now and get the AI Debug patch ready for another release instead.
20:02:26  <Eddi|zuHause> is TrainLocoHandler only run for the front engine?
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20:11:18  <Zuu> Alberth: You probably have to use the maximum dimension of the upper/lower image to calculate the offset and then apply the extra pixel for the lower image placement.
20:11:40  <Zuu> That way it might somewhat work.
20:13:05  *** thomas001 [] has joined #openttd
20:13:52  <Alberth> I think so, don't know about the special images mentioned by frosch123 however, perhaps they need special handling.
20:14:10  <thomas001> hi, i run openttd 1.0b4 unter win7 64bit. but the mouse cursor moment is kind of "jumpy", like it gets only updated every 3rd frame or so. also the cursor tends to flicker while this a known issue?
20:15:06  <glx> how is cpu usage?
20:15:06  <Zuu> Do you run in fast forward?
20:15:17  <frosch123> windowed/fullscreen
20:15:32  <thomas001> windows/no fast forward...checking cpu usage
20:16:24  *** Rubix`` [] has joined #openttd
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20:17:04  *** Jonis [] has joined #openttd
20:17:07  <thomas001> cpu usage is about 10% on a 3-core system
20:17:13  <Jonis> Hi
20:17:28  <Zuu> Hi and welcome Jonis
20:18:19  <Jonis> Thanks
20:18:38  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... if i'm in the smallmap, and want to change the colour of a tile/pixe, what do i need to do?
20:19:23  <Zuu> Perhaps call a Gfx* function?
20:19:29  <Alberth> write a different colour byte
20:20:05  <Zuu> Hmm, ignore my answer.
20:20:19  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r19049 /trunk/src/industry_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: Deduplicate computing number of initial industries.
20:20:29  <Zuu> Though you knew you wanted to change a x,y pixel on the screen.
20:20:35  *** Zahl_ [~Zahl@2002:5ce2:d3a2:1:24d4:eaa:669:12fb] has joined #openttd
20:20:50  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause:  line 651: blitter->SetPixel(dst, idx, 0, val8[idx]);
20:21:47  <Jonis> How do I get buses to ignore stations where they aren't supposed to stop at?
20:22:25  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: and if you want more single pixel-ish changes, read DrawVehicles() below that
20:23:54  <Eddi|zuHause> Jonis: by setting "non-stop"
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20:27:33  *** Zahl_ is now known as Zahl
20:28:39  <Jonis> Thanks!
20:33:22  <Eddi|zuHause> err... anybody used "combroadw.grf" recently? i get some kind of fatal error: read over end of pseudosprite
20:34:19  <thomas001> can i force the installer to do a downgrade or do i have to copy from the zip archive?
20:34:47  <TrueBrain> I AM BORED
20:35:19  * valhalla1w throws a bone
20:36:29  <glx> thomas001: uninstall then install previous or use the zip
20:36:48  <thomas001> uninstall....good point glx
20:37:17  <TrueBrain> Why do laptop sellers still claim that you have to remove your Li-ion battery when your laptop is plugged in?! What kind of bullshit is that?
20:37:26  <TrueBrain> why do they still claim you have to deplete your battery before recharging?
20:37:35  <TrueBrain> grrr
20:37:38  <TrueBrain> agression ...
20:38:00  <glx> come from NiCd
20:38:09  <TrueBrain> yes ..... LONG LONG LONG LONG ago
20:38:21  <TrueBrain> how long as we running li-ion batteries now?
20:38:30  <TrueBrain> they don't have 'memory'
20:38:37  <TrueBrain> like Ni or Mh have ...
20:38:51  <TrueBrain> (well, Mh is another story, but okay :p)
20:40:30  <Ammler> how "safe" is it to buy chinese akkus from ebay?
20:40:55  <valhalla1w> unsafe.
20:41:04  <valhalla1w> or rather: you cannot know for sure
20:41:05  <Ammler> those are almost 10 times cheaper
20:41:10  <glx> as safe as some laptop ;)
20:41:11  <valhalla1w> if it has no thermal protection, you're fucked
20:41:24  *** valhalla1w is now known as valhallasw
20:41:25  *** Rubix`` [] has quit [Quit: Ping timeout: 540 seconds]
20:41:33  <TrueBrain> hihi, valhallasw, then the joy starts for me :p
20:41:38  <valhallasw> li-ion batteries have some nasty characteristics when you abuse them
20:41:40  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r19050 /trunk/src/industry_cmd.cpp: -Fix: Don't call callbacks for disabled industrytypes.
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20:41:47  <valhallasw> they tend to blow up and stuff.
20:41:53  <Ammler> :-o
20:41:58  <Digitalfox> hi TrueBrain :)
20:42:04  <TrueBrain> Digitalfox: howdie :)
20:42:07  <valhallasw> TrueBrain: liquid nitrogen and cola bottels. check.
20:42:16  <Digitalfox> TrueBrain:
20:42:21  <valhallasw> been there, done that. t-shirts are still in the making.
20:42:22  <Digitalfox> do you agree?
20:42:25  <TrueBrain> liquid nitrogen and broken release valve :)
20:42:37  <valhallasw> and three floors of concrete
20:42:44  <frosch123> [21:35] <Eddi|zuHause> err... anybody used "combroadw.grf" recently? i get some kind of fatal error: read over end of pseudosprite <- decode, renum, fix, encode
20:42:46  <valhallasw> that's not really funny, actually.
20:42:57  <TrueBrain> valhallasw: seen it, done that
20:43:08  <valhallasw> er. where?
20:43:43  <thomas001> hmm flcikering also happens in 0.75
20:43:46  <TrueBrain> second floor
20:43:57  <TrueBrain> gave a nice mushroom cloud, and shifferinig cold over the floor :p
20:44:12  <valhallasw> oh, the neck clamp broke?
20:44:13  <TrueBrain> Digitalfox: now that is auseful url :)
20:44:33  <TrueBrain> valhallasw: "de overdruk ding was verrot, dus de hoofd ding klapte eruit, en gooide alles in 1x omhoog" .. it was very amusing :)
20:44:42  <TrueBrain> even more the panic on the face of the teacher :p
20:44:53  <valhallasw> oh, the large emergency release valve
20:45:04  <valhallasw> of course, I forgot there is a second one :P
20:45:06  <TrueBrain> gives a 10cm high cloud on the floor :p
20:45:09  *** oskari89 [] has quit [Quit: Untenmaa, Utm Aœ - Aja 35 Odota seis]
20:45:10  <valhallasw> yeah
20:45:15  <TrueBrain> hehe ... not having a second would be .. bad? :p
20:45:27  <Eddi|zuHause> talk about cold feet :p
20:45:28  <valhallasw> the emergency release valve is not called 'emergency' as a joke
20:45:39  <valhallasw> the problem is... people use them as a pressure regulator
20:45:41  <TrueBrain> ;)
20:46:46  <TrueBrain> either way .. seen it in action .. kind of funny, but not something I want to see every day :p
20:47:08  <TrueBrain> Digitalfox: ps: you always monitor logs and join if you have something to say?
20:49:11  <Digitalfox> TrueBrain:  sometimes
20:49:45  <valhallasw> TrueBrain: significantly better outcome than with some douchebags that welded both valves shut.
20:49:55  <TrueBrain> valhallasw: LOL!!
20:49:59  <TrueBrain> I do not want to be near THAT
20:50:02  <valhallasw> they found the tank three floors up
20:50:16  <TrueBrain> that is just _very_ stupid
20:50:37  <TrueBrain> I hope he got fired ..
20:51:00  <valhallasw> heh.
20:51:04  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r19051 /trunk/src/industry_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: Variable scope.
20:51:06  <valhallasw> well, getting fired is one thing
20:51:43  <glx> no injuries I hope
20:51:47  <valhallasw> not in that case
20:52:18  <valhallasw> there was a chef a year ago who lost a hand because he had a vacuum flask filled with liquid nitrogen... and sealed it.
20:52:32  *** Rubix`` [] has joined #openttd
20:52:37  <valhallasw> yes. people are stupid.
20:53:02  <TrueBrain> well, at least you have cold stuff nearby :)
20:53:34  *** bryjen [] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
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20:56:01  <TrueBrain> @op
20:56:04  *** mode/#openttd [+o TrueBrain] by DorpsGek
20:56:07  *** mode/#openttd [+l 175] by TrueBrain
20:56:07  <TrueBrain> @deop
20:56:10  *** mode/#openttd [-o TrueBrain] by DorpsGek
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20:59:06  <PeterT> what is the channel limit
20:59:08  <PeterT> ?
20:59:32  <glx> ask google
20:59:58  <PeterT> ok, found it
21:00:08  <PeterT> why would we want to limit the channel???
21:00:18  <glx> basically a join flood protection
21:00:40  <TrueBrain> but a moment ago it was almost doing something else ;)
21:01:41  <valhallasw> doesnt OFTC have a flood setting?
21:01:47  <PeterT> has that every actually happened before?
21:01:49  <PeterT> join flood?
21:02:52  <valhallasw> hm, nope
21:03:36  <glx> yes it happened before
21:04:17  <PeterT> when?
21:04:24  <TrueBrain> in the past
21:04:35  <PeterT> in the way past?
21:04:48  <glx> and when it happens the first step is to set +R
21:05:05  <TrueBrain> you really are a know-it-all :p
21:05:25  <glx> then wait until the botnet is completely banned from the network
21:10:11  <Zuu> Does anyone miss a clear button: ?
21:10:39  <Zuu> Or will it just be waste of space.
21:11:18  <TrueBrain> an AI debugger ingame? COOL! :)
21:11:23  <TrueBrain> you mean for the textbox?
21:11:30  <Zuu> For the text box yes.
21:11:45  <TrueBrain> a small X at the end of the button wont hurt anyone :)
21:11:59  <TrueBrain> OSX influenced ;)
21:12:04  *** jpx_ [] has quit []
21:12:04  <Zuu> hehe
21:12:12  <Ammler> just no new buttons, you break 32bpp tars ;-)
21:12:28  <Ammler> graphics*
21:12:28  <Zuu> new sprites?
21:12:59  <Prof_Frink> Or a left-pointing chevron with an X on it
21:13:07  <Prof_Frink> KDE influenced :)
21:13:21  <Zuu> TrueBrain: It stops the AI just after the current call, and pauses the game. When you unpause, the AI will also continue.
21:13:42  <TrueBrain> very nice idea :)
21:13:44  <TrueBrain> can be very useful
21:13:48  <TrueBrain> now also a source debugger, and you are done :p
21:13:58  <Zuu> :-p
21:13:59  <TrueBrain> (showing WHERE in the source it is :p)
21:14:13  <TrueBrain> owh, ingame editor .. hmm ..
21:14:31  <Zuu> Especially, with compiled Squirrel code :-)
21:15:01  <Zuu> Trying to find out the line numbers I guess will be quite hard.
21:15:25  <TrueBrain> I believe it is in some field
21:15:35  <Zuu> Though, the trace of errors show line numbers so maybe it should be there somewhere..
21:16:40  <Zuu> So you are suggesting a button with a 'x' string on it or the close window x image.
21:17:41  <TrueBrain> I was just thinking OSX did that in a nice way :) I am not suggesting anything, as I am way too long out of the OpenTTD (game-client) business to make any sane suggestion :)
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21:18:57  <Zuu> TrueBrain: Okay, it is a good idea, but duno if that is wanted in OpenTTD.
21:19:04  <Ammler> well, for newgrfs, it could be useful...
21:19:24  <Zuu> To have an X-button?
21:19:37  <Ammler> ingame debugger :-P
21:19:45  <TrueBrain> so create it
21:20:07  <TrueBrain> Zuu: but I was serious about the suggestion to display in those cases the line it paused on; can be valuable I guess :)
21:21:14  <Zuu> TrueBrain: Yep, that could be valuable, but will be kept as a suggestion for a future patch.
21:22:28  <Zuu> It has been suggested a button to produce a printout of the current state (as happens when it crashes). That button would probably print out the current line of code if it can.
21:22:50  <TrueBrain> sounds good, yes
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21:33:59  <Terkhen> good night
21:34:01  *** Terkhen [] has quit [Quit: ...]
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21:47:09  <Wakou> Hi guys, anyone know what these errors are, and should I worry about them?
21:47:12  *** xi23 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:47:31  <Wakou>
21:49:21  <TrueBrain> yes, you should worry about them
21:49:25  <TrueBrain> did you create the pngs yourself?
21:51:57  *** Sacro1 [~Sacro@adsl-87-102-33-135.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
21:53:00  <Wakou> No, they are from the pack I downloaded
21:53:25  <TrueBrain> someone didnt do their homework ;)
21:53:34  <Wakou> (I use the extra zoom patch)
21:53:38  <TrueBrain> without offset, those sprites are displayed at 0,0, which is rarely the correct place
21:54:48  *** Sacro1 [~Sacro@adsl-87-102-33-135.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit []
21:56:21  <kd5pbo> Is there a command to get the date or year?
21:56:50  <Eddi|zuHause> what would you need that for?
21:57:01  *** thingwath [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
21:57:19  <kd5pbo> Curious what the date is on my dedicated server, but I don't want to have to fire up another client just to check.
21:57:44  <Wakou> How can I tell what the png's are? Are they inside ogfx1-base? How do I unpack that?
21:57:55  <TrueBrain> 'ogfx1_base/1694.png'
21:57:57  <TrueBrain> seems clear enough
21:58:16  <Wakou> I might to you :0
21:58:34  <Eddi|zuHause> Wakou: you can open .tar files with the usual compression programs like winrar or 7zip
21:58:48  <PeterT> kd5pbo: No, there is no command.
21:58:55  <kd5pbo> PeterT: Thanks.
21:59:09  <jonty-comp> either way, you either got the wrong download or those files aren't finished yet
21:59:10  <Wakou> ogfx-base is not a tar?
21:59:11  <Eddi|zuHause> kd5pbo: the date should be in the server query packet though
21:59:19  <PeterT> Eddi|zuHause: Why is the reason relevant at _all_?
21:59:54  <kd5pbo> Eddi|zuHause: Yeah, but writing code to check that would require more work than launching the cilent and checking.
21:59:55  <jonty-comp> why do you have to word that in _such_ a confrontational way?
21:59:57  <Eddi|zuHause> PeterT: possible use justifies an attempt at implementing?
22:00:18  <Eddi|zuHause> kd5pbo: tried ottdlib?
22:00:37  <kd5pbo> No, never heard of it.
22:00:55  <TrueBrain> jonty-comp: because he is PeterT
22:00:57  <kd5pbo> I'll look it up.
22:01:06  <Eddi|zuHause> afair it's a python bot that queries the server
22:01:18  <jonty-comp> no, openttdlib is the php lib
22:01:24  * jonty-comp has it at
22:01:45  <jonty-comp> in fact, you can use ?host=foo&port=bar on that for any server, in theory
22:01:52  <PeterT> jonty-comp: well, I've seen people in this channel only be helped if they give a reason. what's the point in that?
22:02:05  * kd5pbo is confused.
22:02:09  <kd5pbo> What's the python bot called?
22:02:35  <PeterT> OpenTTDLib
22:02:42  <kd5pbo> thanks.
22:03:14  <jonty-comp> well, the OpenTTDLib on my server is definitely a php library, not a python bot
22:03:27  <jonty-comp> so perhaps there is some double-naming going on :p
22:03:28  <PeterT> kd5pbo: join #codecubes
22:04:02  <kd5pbo> Yeah, python would be more helpful than php for me.
22:04:18  <TrueBrain> jonty-comp: no worries, it is PHP
22:04:52  <TrueBrain> I think PeterT has trouble reading; but yeah, if you don't ask for intentions of a person, that can happen :)
22:05:04  *** thingwath [] has joined #openttd
22:05:09  <Ammler> [22:56] <kd5pbo> Is there a command to get the date or year? <-- date
22:05:21  <Ammler> or getdate?
22:05:47  <jonty-comp> huh, I never knew about that one
22:06:00  <TrueBrain> not like you ever need it ;)
22:06:07  <kd5pbo> getdate :)
22:06:08  <jonty-comp> you never know
22:06:10  <kd5pbo> Ammler: Thanks.
22:07:17  <Ammler> ap+ -> console confusion :-)
22:07:44  <jonty-comp> heh
22:08:28  <kd5pbo> Ammler: What's ap+ ?
22:08:47  <Ammler> kd5pbo: ask PeterT ;-)
22:08:53  <PeterT> Noooooo
22:08:56  <PeterT> don't ask PeterT
22:09:08  *** Polygon [] has joined #openttd
22:09:09  <Ammler> did your Install process fail?
22:09:18  <PeterT> :-(
22:09:19  <PeterT> yes
22:09:53  <PeterT> i cannot find expect on Windows
22:10:04  <PeterT> i even tried 'teacup install Expect'
22:10:15  <PeterT> then I restarted, and it still didn't work
22:11:11  <Ammler> kd5pbo: ap+ is a tcl-wrapper around openttd to make for example a IRC bridge of the game chat to IRC
22:11:55  <kd5pbo> Oh.
22:12:01  <kd5pbo> Handy.
22:12:15  <Ammler> or IRC->console (rcon replacement)
22:12:46  <kd5pbo> PeterT: Why do you not want to be asked?
22:12:59  <Ammler> because it seems not working on windows... :-(
22:13:04  <PeterT> yes
22:13:25  <kd5pbo> Oh.
22:13:28  <kd5pbo> That sucks.
22:13:59  <jonty-comp> I thought ActiveTcl came with Expect
22:14:01  <kd5pbo> Why not write a patch for the game to do that
22:14:09  <PeterT> jonty-comp: I thought so too
22:14:14  <PeterT> I installed ActiveTCL
22:14:27  <jonty-comp> then again, anything with Active* in the name sucks, from past experience
22:14:55  <Ammler> PeterT: did you try the link I gave you?
22:15:10  <Ammler> something tclsh
22:15:10  <PeterT> which one is that?
22:15:14  <TrueBrain> jonty-comp: you will get plenty of future experience with it too ... Microsoft is not going anywhere :p
22:15:41  <PeterT> Ammler: This?
22:15:44  <PeterT> If so, yes
22:15:52  <Ammler>
22:16:36  <PeterT> that doesn't have any installer
22:16:47  <PeterT> Like I said, i tried teapot install expect
22:17:00  <PeterT> [17:09:57] <PeterT> i even tried 'teacup install Expect'
22:17:33  <Ammler> yes, so expect is installed?
22:17:34  <Zuu> An other option if you just want basic auto pilot functionality is to implement them yourself using a language that works on Windows.
22:17:37  <jonty-comp> TrueBrain: I'll stick with proper perl binaries thanks, they seem to work for my get_iplayer script
22:17:41  <Ammler> and you have another issue...
22:17:47  <TrueBrain> Perl? PERL? You are crazy
22:18:08  <TrueBrain> did my fair share with ActivePerl .. brr
22:18:20  <PeterT> Ammler: I restarted, ran ./autopilot.tcl and no luck :-(
22:19:10  <Zuu> I wrote a basic auto pilot in ruby once.
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22:22:03  <Zuu> Good night
22:22:06  *** Zuu [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
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22:23:21  <Ammler> PeterT: try tclsh autopilot.tcl
22:23:27  <PeterT>
22:23:37  <PeterT> I shall try that
22:24:18  <PeterT> same output, Ammler
22:24:30  <Ammler> ok, then wait for Avignon 0.2 :-)
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22:24:59  <Ammler> well, you will get the same issues with it, but it might have better docs.
22:25:26  <PeterT> Ammler:
22:25:32  <PeterT> That's the output of teacup install Expect
22:25:55  <Ammler> ah
22:26:16  <Ammler> I guess, you need to load the expect before tclsh, maybe?
22:27:24  <Ammler> package require Expect
22:27:45  <Ammler> move to line 2 (before exec tclsh)
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22:29:06  <PeterT> Ok :-)
22:30:00  <PeterT> Ammler: Strange, when I double-click on it, it gets past the "package require Expect" and gives another error
22:30:16  <PeterT> so the package is installed, but MSYS cannot see it
22:30:20  <Ammler> oh, well, run it on console
22:30:43  <Ammler> and I wouldn't run it with msys either.
22:30:52  <PeterT> why not?
22:30:57  <PeterT> console?
22:31:00  <PeterT> you mean command?
22:31:10  <Ammler> on the usual windows console "cmd" ?
22:32:21  <Ammler> msys is like bash for windows, isn't?
22:33:04  <Ammler> dunno, if ActiveTCL works there.
22:33:24  <PeterT> "couldn't exectue 'echo': no such file or directory while executing 'exec echo [ pid ] > $pidfile' (file 'C:\MSYS.0\home\Peter\ap+\autopilot.tcl' line 27)"
22:33:51  <Ammler> comment that out
22:34:54  <Ammler> exec commands are as said not that windows friendly ;-)
22:35:18  <PeterT> comment?
22:35:22  <PeterT> with '#'?
22:35:25  <Ammler> yes
22:35:27  <PeterT> or //?
22:35:28  <PeterT> ok
22:35:42  <Ammler> like others, just check the file :-P
22:36:11  <Ammler> I see lots of "#"
22:36:20  <Ammler> should be obvious then.
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22:42:09  <PeterT> Ammler, you still there?
22:42:49  <PeterT> Ammler:
22:43:36  <Ammler> and why isn't that in the console?
22:43:38  <kd5pbo> Why was the wrapper written in TCL?
22:43:57  <Ammler> !s/was/is/
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22:44:21  <Nite_Owl> Hello all
22:44:23  <PeterT> Umm, it doesn't work in console
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22:44:27  <Ammler> and will, the new one Avignon is too
22:44:31  <jonty-comp> I would put it forward that both was and is are valid statements
22:44:34  <jonty-comp> :p
22:44:37  * jonty-comp buggers off
22:46:08  <thomas001> how many ecs vectors do you usually enable at the same time? i currently have basic+town+wood+construction, but the map seems to be somewhat overcrowded with industry
22:46:56  <Ammler> use "very low" for generation
22:47:22  <PeterT> Ammler:
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22:48:00  <Ammler> openttd.exe is _not_ a console app
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22:48:18  <PeterT> It is now, I did a covert.exe on it
22:48:57  <Ammler> how do you start autopilot?
22:49:21  <PeterT> omg! it's working!!!
22:50:02  <roboboy> hello
22:50:21  <thomas001> Ammler, is that how ecs is usually played?
22:51:32  <Ammler> thomas001: if you have too many industries, use a lower density, simpel, isn't?
22:52:04  <PeterT> it works!
22:52:14  <Ammler> PeterT: channel?
22:52:27  <PeterT> hold on, that was just a test
22:52:46  <thomas001> Ammler, sure...but i'd liked to know if this is the way people usually use ecs...or if they perhaps just use fewer vectors and higher indistry density....
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22:53:33  <Nite_Owl> too man y variables due to too many people
22:53:39  <Nite_Owl> *many
22:55:07  <Ammler> PeterT: if it really works, would be nice, you would write down a little "windows howto" to the wiki
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22:55:20  <Ammler> might also help for Avignon 0.2
22:55:29  <PeterT> oh damn, the IRC module doesn't work yet :O
22:55:35  <PeterT> I'll have to fiddle with that
22:55:48  <PeterT> I did all this with alot of hacking and such
22:56:10  <Ammler> did you move the package require expect?
22:56:21  <PeterT> I love how I'm the "test guy" who spends hours doing something then I make it easy for others by updating wikis and such
22:56:30  <PeterT> Ammler: It was installed, just not recognized by MSYS'
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22:56:36  <PeterT> so instaed of ./autopilot.tcl
22:56:51  <PeterT> I just double-clicked on it, and solved the errors that came up :-)
22:57:01  <Ammler> hmm
22:57:15  <Ammler> well, you made a svn checkout
22:57:23  <PeterT> hm?
22:57:26  <Ammler> so a patch could be interesting :-)
22:57:49  <PeterT> Well, the errors were mostly that I didn't have autopilot.tcl and its folders in the same folder as OpenTTD
22:58:05  <Ammler> yes
22:58:27  <Ammler> that might be required, at least we use it that way...
22:59:54  <Ammler> I am not really familiar with "doubleclick" on a console tool...
23:00:18  <Ammler> I would miss the output
23:00:22  <PeterT> hehe
23:00:52  <Ammler> often I do the opposite
23:01:07  <Ammler> run a GUI tool with console to see some debug and such
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23:01:35  <PeterT> Ammler, can you do me a big favor?
23:01:44  <Ammler> not sure :-)
23:02:32  <PeterT> fire up nightly and join my server?
23:02:37  <PeterT> r19020
23:02:51  <PeterT> just while I figure out hwo to do the IRC module
23:03:08  <roboboy> if I want to run autopilot, do I need to start OpenTTD first?
23:03:32  <roboboy> and would the window it runs in need to be visible?
23:04:05  <Ammler> PeterT: I have the openttdcoop nightly (r18985)
23:04:20  <PeterT> roboboy
23:04:28  <PeterT> It is quite a complicated proccess
23:04:57  <PeterT> I think i will dedicate (the rest of) today to testing AutoPilot, then tommorow to writing a guide on how to install AutoPilot on Windoze
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23:05:23  <roboboy> yey
23:05:50  <roboboy> then I shall try and get it working on my non-standard openttd install at home
23:06:09  <roboboy> I have OpenTTD set to run as a service
23:06:34  <roboboy> so I shall see if I can get AutoPilot to agree with that setup
23:06:40  <roboboy> but bye
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23:14:04  <Ammler> PeterT: the irc thing might be an issue with firewall
23:14:18  <PeterT> hmm...
23:14:59  <Ammler> or you need to teacup a lib...
23:15:01  <Ammler> dunno...
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23:40:59  <PeterT> Ammler: I'm having so much trouble getting expect
23:41:13  <PeterT> to work with MSYS, anyway
23:41:43  <Ammler> he, I thought that isn't a problem anymore?
23:43:04  <PeterT> for double-click, no
23:43:10  <PeterT> for ./autopilot.tcl in MSYS, yes
23:43:14  <PeterT> I should ask at the forums
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