Log for #openttd on 11th February 2010:
Times are UTC Toggle Colours
00:00:25  <planetmaker> Earth is 5e24kg. The asteroid belt... I guess of the order 1e20kg
00:00:39  <planetmaker> maybe even less
00:01:49  <planetmaker> wiki sais 3e21kg
00:02:09  <Rubidium> that sounds about right-ish
00:02:10  <Eddi|zuHause> my table doesn't cover the asteroid belt
00:02:37  <planetmaker> Mars is 6e23kg
00:02:44  <Eddi|zuHause> so that's 0.003
00:02:57  <Eddi|zuHause> mars is 0.64
00:03:06  <Eddi|zuHause> and earth is 5.97
00:03:40  <Eddi|zuHause> so in the asteroid belt is actually nothing useful...
00:04:07  <Eddi|zuHause> moon is 0.073
00:04:17  <planetmaker> ;-) Some iron is there. And carbon
00:04:29  <Eddi|zuHause> so that's even factor 20 more...
00:05:05  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i mean in context of artificial planet [with useful gravitation]
00:05:18  <ccfreak2k> Aha.
00:05:25  <ccfreak2k> I finally tracked the next bug down.
00:05:31  <planetmaker> besides: Ceres alone is 9e20kg of the Asteroid belt's mass.
00:05:41  <Eddi|zuHause> ccfreak2k: solving one bug creates two new ones
00:05:55  <ccfreak2k> Oh you.
00:06:21  <Eddi|zuHause> ccfreak2k: it's how programmers ensure their jobs ;)
00:06:28  <ccfreak2k> OpenTTD is trying to open/list "carda:/lang/", while it should be either "carda:/openttd/lang/" or "/openttd/lang".
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00:07:02  <Eddi|zuHause> ccfreak2k: then you did not configure personal_dir and shared_dir correctly
00:07:08  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: they're constantly created ;-) But I guess they're natural ones. Artificial... you can buy stocks and invest millions. ;-) The outlook to realization might be worse than a true skyride with Virgin Galactic
00:07:21  <ccfreak2k> Obviously not, but I've been trying to figure out what would be correct.
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00:07:54  <ccfreak2k> Basically everything should be in /openttd, except for the binary which is in /.
00:08:30  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: well, unless we "solve" the relativity, only planets within our solar system will be useful ;)
00:08:32  <planetmaker> ccfreak2k: then you might want to modify the make bundle command or add a new one
00:08:46  <ccfreak2k> I'm using my own makefile.
00:08:54  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: that depends. Perceived travel time on board might actually be quite ok
00:09:04  <planetmaker> But on Earth it might be eons
00:09:30  <planetmaker> But still... you'd need speeds of >~0.9c
00:09:46  <Eddi|zuHause> well, you can limit the effects if you only travel at something like 1/4c
00:09:49  <planetmaker> acceleration sucks ;-)
00:09:56  <Eddi|zuHause> but you're enroute 4 times longer then
00:10:02  <planetmaker> yes, but then travel is already long ;-)
00:10:25  <Eddi|zuHause> so you only have a handful of reachable stars within the lifetime of the crew
00:10:27  <planetmaker> perceived time is not linear with speed ;-)
00:11:03  <planetmaker> with 0.999c you can travel quite far. Further than 100LY in a human's life time.
00:11:09  <Rubidium> planetmaker: just use the Oort Cloud for materials :)
00:11:28  <planetmaker> @calc (1/(1-0.99^2)
00:11:28  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: Error: unexpected EOF while parsing (<string>, line 1)
00:11:35  <Eddi|zuHause> ö
00:11:35  <planetmaker> @calc (1/(1-0.99^2))
00:11:35  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: Error: Something in there wasn't a valid number.
00:11:41  <Rubidium> ^ -> **
00:11:42  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: **
00:11:44  <planetmaker> @calc (1/(1-0.99**2))
00:11:44  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 50.2512562814
00:11:53  <planetmaker> 50 times time-stretch
00:12:00  <ccfreak2k> Plus 0.25.
00:12:41  <planetmaker> so 2500 LY in 50 years lifetime
00:13:11  <Rubidium> but... a return trip means over 5000 years pass on earth, right?
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00:13:19  <planetmaker> No return flights ;-)
00:13:27  <planetmaker> And yes, it means that
00:14:14  <planetmaker> This calculation has one nasty glitch: it doesn't consider acceleration ;-)
00:14:23  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: what if mankind builds faster space ships within these 5000 years? and surpasses the original crow?
00:14:32  <planetmaker> sure
00:14:42  <planetmaker> what should happen?
00:14:59  <planetmaker> the original crew will find a settled planet ;-)
00:15:03  <Eddi|zuHause> they find a fully populated system
00:15:12  <Eddi|zuHause> with technologies far beyond their own
00:15:26  <planetmaker> and they'll be gaped at like oddities from a far distant past. Which even would be true
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00:15:37  <Eddi|zuHause> and a race that they might not recognize as human
00:15:54  <planetmaker> 5000 years is evolutionary no time
00:16:16  <ccfreak2k> Time enough for love.
00:16:16  <Rubidium> not for linguistics :)
00:16:26  <planetmaker> Except you assume evolution of Borgs or so.
00:16:33  <Eddi|zuHause> not natural evolution, but genetic engineering?
00:17:18  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: well... that's possible. Would be an interesting thing to observe as 3rd party ;-)
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00:18:13  <planetmaker> "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"
00:18:46  <planetmaker> that would be the other interesting experiment to observe when those civs would meet
00:18:51  <Eddi|zuHause> "any technology distinguishible from magic is not sufficiently advanced yet" :p
00:19:28  <planetmaker> you'll not perceive the technology of your time as magic. It's usual.
00:19:46  <planetmaker> But... what would today look like to a brass-age human?
00:19:53  <Eddi|zuHause> i know plenty of people who consider my programs as magic :)
00:19:54  <planetmaker> *bronce
00:20:19  <planetmaker> hehe
00:20:30  <ccfreak2k> planetmaker, someone else said that a few mins ago while some guy was going on about polymers.
00:20:54  <Eddi|zuHause> and that's really simple stuff as in "when tank == 90% full => close valve" :p
00:23:41  <planetmaker> god help, if you programme Leuna ;-)
00:24:03  <Eddi|zuHause> not that big ;)
00:24:23  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: and then wondering why the tank overflowed?
00:24:34  <planetmaker> lol
00:24:49  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: no, in the program it's actually a >= ;)
00:25:12  <Rubidium> yeah, sorry but tank filledness is a double, so the 90% is converted to a double and then we do == :)
00:25:33  <planetmaker> hehe
00:25:55  <planetmaker> With what do you programme such stuff, Eddi|zuHause ?
00:26:28  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: it's actually a 16-bit integer
00:26:55  <planetmaker> I only know LabView myself, and I know of some Siemens stuff which runs some larger systems
00:27:18  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: it's an SPS
00:27:23  <Rubidium> LabView, is that that drag'n'program 'language'?
00:27:31  <planetmaker> Yes and no
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00:28:05  <Rubidium> hmm, remember the good times... linking matlab, java and labview together :)
00:28:22  <planetmaker> yeah, that's the 'no' part ;-)
00:28:23  <Rubidium> (for some reason image acquisition in matlab wasn't fast enough)
00:29:06  <planetmaker> well... image aquisition speed is ressource heave ;-)
00:29:30  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker:
00:29:31  <planetmaker> and shows also nicely the difference between brutto and netto data rate
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00:30:27  <Eddi|zuHause> that's the IDE that got shipped with the module
00:31:24  <Eddi|zuHause> they allow programming in 5 different "languages"
00:31:51  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: same way like .Net is a dozen or so languages, right?
00:32:04  <planetmaker> sounds very similar to the SPS the drop tower in Bremen uses for its operation
00:32:10  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: yeah, something like that
00:32:59  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: "Instruction List (IL)" is assembler like, "Structured Text (ST)" is pascal-like, the others are some kind of graphical representation
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00:33:06  <planetmaker> though IIRC it was from Siemens.
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00:33:39  <planetmaker> and now there was not even a textual representation ;-)
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00:38:13  <planetmaker> now time for sleep. Sleep well, too
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00:43:02  <aber> Where is the problem with OS X 10.6 ?
00:43:24  <Eddi|zuHause> read the thread.
00:43:24  <PeterT> aber:
00:43:50  <Eddi|zuHause> man... these cats totally tore apart my rails :(
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01:39:09  <ccfreak2k> Will openttd search for openttd.cfg in places other than PERSONAL_DIR?
01:39:32  <Rubidium> yes
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02:23:56  <Priski> does anyone has any experience about using Mercurial?
02:24:15  <PeterT> Yes, Priski
02:24:21  <PeterT> I have some basic experience
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02:25:11  <Priski> I was just thinkin if it was any good, is there any good reason using it instead of Subversion?
02:25:32  <glx> it's good for local development
02:25:42  <Rubidium> it all depends on what you want from your VCS
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02:27:43  <PeterT> I don't really know about the features of Mercurial or Subversion, but I do know that Git has amazing features when it comes to branches
02:27:58  <Priski> :P
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02:29:47  <valhallasw> PeterT: yes. the disadvantage is a steeper learning curve compared to svn
02:30:08  <valhallasw> my head has problems keeping track of what-is-what
02:31:40  <Rubidium> if you want an increasing revision number that's the same on *all* checkouts, then use subversion. If you don't care about revision numbers you can choose either
02:32:05  <Rubidium> if you want to do fancy things during tagging, use subversion
02:32:39  <Rubidium> if you want people to easily make a local testing repository, don't use subversion
02:32:53  <Rubidium> if you want to have all history locally, don't use subversion
02:32:58  <PeterT> Use git
02:33:04  <Rubidium> if you want to commit when off-line, don't use subversion
02:33:08  <valhallasw> additionally, if you want to have an headache, use git-svn
02:33:26  <valhallasw> although it probably is great once the headache clears
02:33:39  <Priski> hmmm thanks Rubidium
02:34:26  <Rubidium> valhallasw: for that we use svn->hg->git :)
02:34:58  <valhallasw> I have never used hg :)
02:36:01  <Rubidium> oh, and tortoisehg seems to support ssh out-of-the-box where tortoisesvn needs plink or so (or that might be from long ago)
02:36:43  <Rubidium> oh, if you're using Windows, consider not using git because it doesn't like Windows' file system (it's horribly slow)
02:36:51  <Rubidium> it's extremely fast on linux though
02:37:15  <Priski> I plan to NOT use git
02:37:36  <Priski> but not because of my lowsy windöws
02:37:38  <Priski> =)
02:38:42  * valhallasw likes colinux quite a lot
02:39:00  <valhallasw> windows as gui, linux in the background for console stuff
02:39:08  <valhallasw> and it's not even terribly slow
02:40:24  <Priski> I just was thinking putting project into google code since SF is the great mammoth which has some gas sometimes
02:41:38  <Priski> the simplicity appeals to me
02:42:24  <Rubidium> the eula or whatever it may be called doesn't appeal to me
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02:47:50  <Rubidium> but I agree that SF was sucky and annoying and they have managed to make it even suckier and more annoying than it already was
02:48:30  <Rubidium> seriously... I can mark only one binary as windows, one as osx and one as linux? What about x64?
02:49:04  <Priski> =)
02:50:02  <Priski> Rubidium: whats tha problematic part about that EULA?
02:51:17  <Priski> just reading these licences, cant even be sure if I read the right one, there seem to be few of them here...
02:51:54  <Rubidium> that I can read the TOS in such a manner that Google is allowed to change the license. If I can interpret it in that way, then a lawyer can too and presto... my project can be released by Google under a license that they like
02:52:43  <Rubidium> bye bye clause that gives you the right to request the source if you have a GPL licensed project
02:53:10  <Rubidium> also Google may, without notice, just remove whatever they like or just plainly terminate the whole thing
02:53:28  <Rubidium> woopsie... there goes your nice wiki page with the manual
02:54:20  <Priski> yeah, but then again, I was planning to use google code as an intermediate step if project goes well
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02:55:06  <Priski> I can still remove project from there and that terminates the license
02:55:21  <Priski> at least for future versions
02:55:27  <Rubidium> true, but be aware that migrating a wiki or bug tracker is cumbersome
02:56:29  <Priski> that i know for experience (at least for the bug tracker)
02:56:32  <Priski> :)
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03:12:06  <Priski> great examples on mercurial site, first glance was bit
03:12:29  <Priski> confusing but actually pretty straightforward
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03:12:54  <valhallasw> yeah. we tried doing that for pywikipedia, switching from the tracker to JIRA
03:13:18  <valhallasw> sf.nets export sucks and JIRAs import functionality sucks :p
03:14:10  <PeterT> Night all
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03:16:46  <Priski> only thing is how to deal with managing "subrepos" since you cannot co one part of the repos
03:17:31  <valhallasw> I think they solved that in a typical programmer sense
03:17:36  <Priski> another thing is the size of that thing since you need the copy of the whole repo
03:17:47  <valhallasw> 'this software is so efficient, you won't need subrepo's!'
03:18:36  <Priski> valhallasw: just have to change way to manage project if subproject emerge
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05:46:09  <sparr> any thoughts on how various custom server types will work in 1.0.0 in light of ?
05:46:58  <sparr> I've come to like Ex's and Luukland's servers lately, and will miss them greatly
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08:07:07  <Yexo> sparr: if they really need FS#2590 that badly they'll have to distribute custom binaries to the clients
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08:31:04  <planetmaker> moin
08:34:21  <roboboy> ello
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09:02:06  <Terkhen> good morning
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09:59:35  <TrueBrain> blathijs: you worked on FPGA, not?
10:00:15  <blathijs> TrueBrain: I never actually programmed one, but yes :-)
10:00:45  <TrueBrain> hehe :) I just agreed on my bachelor project: I am going to make Dune2 run on a FPGA :p
10:01:00  <TrueBrain> well .. not sure if there is enough time to do so for real (mostly because of missing drivers), but still :p
10:01:07  <TrueBrain> this is really sick ....
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10:01:50  <blathijs> Cool :-)
10:02:14  <TrueBrain> no: SICK :p
10:02:17  <TrueBrain> either way .....
10:02:27  <blathijs> In what way "run" ? Synthesize a processor on the FPGA and run it on there, or?
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10:02:56  <TrueBrain> I have to read up on the whole process, but what I gathered: convert it to microblades first, then to FPGA
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10:03:02  <TrueBrain> but yes
10:05:10  <blathijs> microblades? Google only tells me about small blade chipped from stone, which isn't what you mean I expect :)
10:05:18  <TrueBrain> hehe
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10:07:16  <roley> this game... is awesome!
10:07:20  <roley> but it's giving me a headache
10:07:41  <TrueBrain> then stop playing it for a while :p
10:08:35  <roley> It's not so much that as I -still- can't figure out how to properly use signals
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10:13:36  <roley> every time I think I've got it figured out, the trains go and do something vapidly stupid
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10:25:30  <roley> does anyone have a good grasp on signals and how to properly use them?
10:30:40  <fjb> Use path signals, put them only there where a waiting train doesn't disturb anything (e.g. doesn't block a crossing).
10:34:06  <roley> alright
10:43:05  <roley> jesus, it's like magic
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11:02:43  <peter1138> heh, fails
11:02:59  <Rubidium> in what sense?
11:03:10  <peter1138> ah, i need
11:04:33  * peter1138 ponders bits 1-3 of m5 for level crossing animation
11:06:11  <peter1138> hmm, and i could actually waste space for real random data for rail types
11:06:28  <peter1138> but there'd be no equivalent for road types
11:07:18  <Rubidium> for road types it would be difficult to add it to road stops too
11:07:52  <Rubidium> so I doubt whether it matters that much
11:07:54  <peter1138> no
11:08:02  <peter1138> most things won't use it anyway :)
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13:00:55  <TrueBrain> Fetched 6371kB in 49710d 6h28min1s (0B/s)
13:02:24  <Rubidium> @calc 2**32/3600/24
13:02:24  <DorpsGek> Rubidium: 49710.2696296
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13:02:49  <Rubidium> TrueBrain: why did you (or NTP) set your clock back in time?
13:03:27  <Forked> ntpd powered, woowee.
13:04:45  <TrueBrain> Rubidium: dunno, I just did a 'apt-get install vim'
13:04:48  <TrueBrain> which was done after 1 second
13:04:51  <TrueBrain> giving me that as value p
13:05:22  <TrueBrain> at least we know they use a 32bit counter
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13:05:54  <Rubidium> yeah, 49.7 kinda gave it away :)
13:06:13  <Noldo> it was done so quick that it didn't have time to tick to 0 ?
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13:07:05  <Rubidium> Noldo: I suspect NTP ran at the time and updated the time, setting it back a bit which means the time (as interpreted by apt) went backwards
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14:00:14  <ccfreak2k> Alright, I think I found the next showstopper.
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14:39:57  <Belugas> hello
14:51:25  <SirSquidness> Hey
14:51:31  <SirSquidness> How's things?
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14:55:50  <Belugas> sick thing
14:55:51  <Belugas> in bed
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14:59:04  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: yexo * r19094 /trunk/src/ (blitter/factory.hpp network/network_udp.cpp newgrf_gui.cpp): -Codechange: don't check for NULL values before calling StrEmpty
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15:04:34  <SirSquidness> That is quite suboptimal
15:07:54  <peter1138> being ill? yes
15:09:07  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: yexo * r19095 /trunk/src/ (base_media_func.h music.cpp): -Fix: segfault when a baseset has an empty metadata field
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15:12:20  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: yexo * r19096 /trunk/src/settings.cpp: -Fix: segfault when one of the items in the news_display group in the config file has no value
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15:26:47  <planetmaker> oh...
15:26:49  * planetmaker hugs Belugas
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15:53:44  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: don't, you might get infected as well
15:54:18  <SirSquidness> I'm pretty sure IRC hugs have a 0 chance of spreading disease when an appropriate firewall is in use by both parties.
15:55:16  <Eddi|zuHause> that's a pretty lighthearted assumption
15:55:34  <SirSquidness> [citation needed]
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16:24:06  <TrueBrain> Rubidium: why do you no longer check if 3rdparty dir is there?
16:24:13  <TrueBrain> (r19081)
16:26:35  <Rubidium> TrueBrain: because it's part of all source downloads for ages, and why do it for 3rdparty and not for e.g. network?
16:26:47  <TrueBrain> Rubidium: the problem is hg and git
16:26:51  <Rubidium> it had its uses back when it was svn:external-ised and such
16:27:16  <TrueBrain> owh, it is in SVN now
16:27:18  <TrueBrain> k
16:27:19  <Rubidium> <- it's quite there
16:35:53  <Eddi|zuHause> feature request: hide the '?' menu before making a screenshot
16:36:14  <Eddi|zuHause> when making that screenshot from the '?' menu instead of by keyboard
16:37:11  <sparr> Yexo: can you think of any feasible way for such servers to continue to work without a custom binary?  requiring custom binaries will cut the playerbase significantly, I think.  I currently have 8 or 9 binaries installed, but I think I'm an exception.
16:37:32  <sparr> Yexo: put another way, what is the "right" way to accomplish what those servers are doing?
16:37:43  <Yexo> I don't know what they are doing exactly
16:38:08  <Yexo> a clean option could be to provide a patch to get the functionality they need included in openttd
16:38:36  <Yexo> but most of those server owners don't want to make their changes public, so I don't know if they want to do that
16:38:57  <sparr> the server is building industries, clearing land, adding signs, etc
16:40:38  <Eddi|zuHause> gnah, i ate too much and now i'm getting really tired...
16:41:34  <planetmaker> sparr, have a rich company run by an AI
16:41:40  <planetmaker> a custom programmed AI
16:41:54  <sparr> planetmaker: can that company be excluded from the ranking charts?
16:42:14  <planetmaker> Not client-side
16:42:30  <planetmaker> But those servers are only interested in the players for their high-score
16:42:35  <planetmaker> and there they can do what they want
16:42:45  <sparr> the players are interested in the stats mid-game for strategy
16:42:59  <sparr> one super-rich company would make the company value graph worthless
16:43:13  <planetmaker> can't you re-scale?
16:43:23  <sparr> elaborate?
16:43:23  <planetmaker> you can hide single companies IIRC
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16:43:48  <planetmaker> toggle on and off, selectively single companies.
16:44:12  <sparr> ahh, by enabling the Key, I see that now
16:44:38  <Eddi|zuHause> sparr: basically these servers are cheating by circumventing measures that are specifically designed to prevent cheating
16:44:51  <Eddi|zuHause> this can't possibly work cleanly
16:44:55  <sparr> Eddi|zuHause: yes, but their goals are legitimate, and thus there should be a non-cheating route to reach them
16:45:24  <planetmaker> they are. But there are better ways than hacking ;-)
16:45:42  <Eddi|zuHause> sparr: but those server owners have shown no intention to get that functionality into trunk
16:45:45  <sparr> those two projects aren't the only ones running custom servers, i imagine others will be bit by this change as well
16:46:11  <planetmaker> sparr, no one disputes that there are good ideas among those.
16:46:24  <planetmaker> But no server owner ever showed anything which would make it usable for all.
16:46:37  <planetmaker> As such they cannot expect custom-tailored backdoors for them
16:46:40  <sparr> until now they didn't need to, everyone could implement it a different way
16:46:54  <Yexo> <Yexo> a clean option could be to provide a patch to get the functionality they need included in openttd <- That was my first suggestion
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16:47:08  <sparr> Yexo: I'm going to try.
16:47:29  <sparr> there should be some trivial way to allow player-ish commands to be sent from no player.
16:47:37  <planetmaker> sparr, that problem already existed, btw. also from 0.6.x -> 0.7.x
16:47:52  <sparr> the complaint in the bug is that it will cause a null pointer dereference...  crazy idea, why not check if the pointer is null first, and don't dereference it if so?
16:48:13  <Yexo> that is also explained there: every command would have to check if the curernt company is valid
16:48:21  <Yexo> instead the check is done now at a single location
16:48:52  <planetmaker> besides, a server could undo that change.
16:49:01  <planetmaker> Though that certainly would not be sensible
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16:49:14  <Yexo> planetmaker: no, that check is also done on all clients
16:49:16  <sparr> planetmaker: i'm of the impression that undoing just the check would cause segfaults
16:49:54  <planetmaker> hm, ok, then the DoCommand cannot be executed that easily
16:50:06  <frosch123> everytime i join the topic is the same... why don't they just use an ai?
16:50:32  <sparr> frosch123: because that would be a lot more complex (including writing the ai), and would add annoyance for the players (having to filter the AI from charts)
16:50:32  <planetmaker> <planetmaker> sparr, have a rich company run by an AI <-- :-) @ frosch123
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16:51:08  <sparr> frosch123: and, not being completely familiar with the AI system, I might suggest there are things an AI can't do that a server can fake a player doing?
16:51:14  <Yexo> sparr: you wouldn't have to actually write an AI, just create an Ai company and let the server fake all commands it curerntly does as coming from that AI
16:51:23  <Rubidium> Yexo: I have seen what they did with 0.7.5C, I can only extrapolate that what they do on the server is worse
16:51:54  <Rubidium> and if the ratings aren't enough, just kill the AI and start a new one... instant rating reset :)
16:51:55  <planetmaker> sparr, an AI is a player
16:52:05  <sparr> Yexo: ahh, point taken
16:52:19  <Rubidium> oh shoot, did I just give them the solution to their problem?
16:52:56  <planetmaker> Rubidium, the money issue (if they need some) remains
16:53:20  <Yexo> planetmaker: as long as the maximum loan is enough money that is no problem
16:53:21  <planetmaker> sparr, but then: coming up with a decent patch would be something productive.
16:53:21  <Rubidium> planetmaker: only if they want to construct industries I reckon
16:53:36  <planetmaker> Rubidium, that's what I thought of. I think it was also mentioned
16:54:02  <sparr> ok, ignoring the technical aspects for a moment, let me come at this from a community standpoint...  a significant fraction (as much as 30% at times) of the active multiplayer playerbase of openttd plays on goal servers.
16:54:09  <planetmaker> 17:38 <sparr> the server is building industries, clearing land, adding signs, etc <--there
16:55:00  <planetmaker> sparr, and? If there are no patches what should be done?
16:55:04  <Yexo> sparr: that is no argument
16:55:20  <planetmaker> Make it proper and you'll get your support
16:55:29  <Yexo> given the amount of downloads and the amount of multiplayer players online at any given time I'm quite sure the largest part of the openttd players doesn't play multiplayer
16:55:33  <sparr> Rubidium: killing and restarting the AI generates message spam to all of the players.  I am unsure, but it might also result in weird player numbering gaps.
16:55:38  <planetmaker> I'm quite sure that there are devs who like ideas of that kind, too
16:55:55  <Rubidium> Yexo: no, it's a very good one... about 0.0001% of the community is grievers and the like, just remove passwords from companies and such because it's only troublesome for the rest
16:56:13  <planetmaker> :-D
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16:56:25  <Rubidium> also it's a good reason to remove all packet checking as only 0.0001% wants to do bad things (read: cheat or crash the server)
16:57:55  <sparr> Rubidium: the solutions being suggested here involving an AI are far more hackish than what is being done in 0.7.5.  an AI would add useless entries to various menus and charts, would add unwanted message spam (I think), would require more code than the current system
16:58:03  <Yexo> and lets use floats like 0.7.5C, it's very well tested and doesn't desync at all
16:58:31  <Ammler> [17:55] <Yexo> given the amount of downloads and the amount of multiplayer players online at any given time I'm quite sure the largest part of the openttd players doesn't play multiplayer <-- downloading isn't playing ;-)
16:58:48  <sparr> Rubidium: i think .0001% is low for that...  i'd say more like .1% (1/1000)
16:59:13  <sparr> Ammler: good point.  I have downloaded openttd at least fifty times, mostly for different binaries.  I am but one player
16:59:39  <Yexo> sparr: agreed, using an Ai company is a hack. however what is done in 0.7.5 is hack too, no reason to allow that again. I'm not against improving the options for a competitive game in trunk, I'm just not interested enough to write it myself
16:59:49  <sparr> Yexo: what if there was always a dummy company in the pool, that never appeared in any interface?  not specific to goal servers, just always there period.
17:00:09  <planetmaker> sparr, that'd mean to remove one possible player slot
17:00:18  <sparr> planetmaker: the AI option does that too, no?
17:00:22  <planetmaker> why should that be done?
17:00:41  <planetmaker> sparr, sure. But why do you want to remove for 70% of the players the option to have one company more?
17:00:43  <planetmaker> Why?
17:00:54  <sparr> I don't think that follows
17:01:11  <planetmaker> Or it cannot have signs
17:01:21  <planetmaker> and other stuff
17:01:24  <sparr> if you are implementing the permanent dummy company and making it ignored by all of the other elements that list companies then you can make it ignored by the slot counter as well
17:01:48  <planetmaker> The problem is the map array
17:02:21  <planetmaker> If you don't want to build anything though...
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17:02:56  <Yexo> if you don't want to build anything you might as well use COMPANY_SPECTATOR
17:03:33  <sparr> building things is less important, but still a factor.
17:03:42  <planetmaker> Yexo, spectator cannot delete anything, build no signs and no industries. A company could
17:04:15  <Yexo> planetmaker: spectator would be able to build signs if someone wrote a patch for it
17:04:26  <planetmaker> sure :-)
17:04:28  <Yexo> deleting stuff and building industries should be company-only indeed
17:04:39  <Yexo> but then that company has to be a valid company, so you remove a normal company slot
17:04:48  <planetmaker> yep
17:05:11  <planetmaker> unless you make it a non-normal one and allow cheating for everyone by means of that company
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17:06:46  <planetmaker> actually, from my personal perspective the main issue remains: changes just for the sake to allow further hacks which will not become public don't seem proper
17:07:50  <Yexo> completely agreed
17:08:07  <Rubidium> we could just compile all binaries with --disable-network. Then the problem's solved too
17:08:37  <planetmaker> For the sake of our servers I'd have to contradict ;-)
17:08:53  <Ammler> you stole us already the id :-P
17:09:20  <planetmaker> hm... did we use it except in wwottdgd/2?
17:09:40  <Yexo> <Ammler> you stole us already the id :-P <- what is that about?
17:10:16  <Rubidium> Yexo: some pseudorandom, but not really random, garbage that was send to the server and that was then not used at the server
17:10:17  <Ammler> planetmaker: it was a planned feature in Avignon
17:10:24  <planetmaker> he :-)
17:10:36  <Rubidium> Ammler: what were your intentions with it?
17:10:54  <Ammler> we liked to use it like keys.
17:10:54  <planetmaker> The intention was to ban the unique ID in case of (incompetent) grievers
17:11:09  <planetmaker> or to allow access
17:11:50  <Rubidium> ``17. A security system is only as secure as its secret. Beware of pseudo-secrets.''
17:11:52  <planetmaker> But as it can be written and re-written manually it's of course anything but save for people who know about it
17:12:25  <Ammler> he? You still need a valid key?
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17:13:08  <Rubidium> Ammler: just searching for openttd.cfg and you'll find many many keys
17:13:58  <Ammler> well, it doesn't matter anymore, anyway...
17:14:19  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19097 /trunk/src/music/bemidi.cpp: -Fix [FS#3610] (r10444): compilation error in the BeMidi driver (jrepan)
17:14:45  <Rubidium> if you want to do it 'right', use proper security stuff
17:15:13  <Ammler> key comaring is quite secure, imo.
17:15:35  <Yexo> it didn't compile since r10444?
17:16:15  <Rubidium> Yexo: yes
17:17:13  <planetmaker> wow. THAT's a time span
17:18:10  <Eddi|zuHause> wtf is a "bemidi"?
17:18:22  <Rubidium> beos' midi
17:18:25  <planetmaker> Rubidium, the idea was to add some kind of identification to the standard clients. But yes, proper security would then be better... but custom clients ;-)
17:18:44  <Eddi|zuHause> i didn't even know we had that :p
17:18:59  <Rubidium> planetmaker: gnutls or so would probably help with that
17:20:18  <Rubidium> then you can use e.g. pgp keys for authentication
17:20:23  <Ammler> well, the unique_id was as secure as joining our irc channel and type !password
17:23:36  <planetmaker> hmpf... Bloody FF :S
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17:44:53  <aber> !password
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17:45:02  <planetmaker> :-D
17:45:18  <planetmaker> tralalalala lala I thought they'd never end lalalala
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17:45:58  <planetmaker> wrong channel, aber ;-)
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18:10:20  <sparr> planetmaker: "changes just for the sake to allow further hacks which will not become public"  <--  you mean like the mod/extension/plugin system that some significant fraction of all games have?
18:15:29  <Eddi|zuHause> sparr: the mod/extension/plugin system in openttd is called newgrf
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18:16:44  <Eddi|zuHause> sparr: and the servers in question specifically did NOT use newgrfs, because they would have to make their modification public that way
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18:46:30  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r19098 /trunk/src/lang/ (21 files): (log message trimmed)
18:46:30  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:46:30  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: arabic_egypt - 101 changes by kasakg
18:46:30  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: croatian - 7 changes by VoyagerOne
18:46:30  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: czech - 8 changes by SmatZ
18:46:31  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: dutch - 2 changes by habell
18:46:31  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: finnish - 4 changes by jpx_
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18:51:25  <ccfreak2k> ffff I broke it again.
18:51:40  <SpComb^> ccfreak2k: git!
18:52:53  <ccfreak2k> :(
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18:59:41  <SHADOW-XIII> I wonder when 32bpp is coming in OTTD to replace 8bpp, after 1.0
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19:00:14  <Eddi|zuHause> that is not going to happen
19:00:37  <Eddi|zuHause> a) at best, 32bpp is an ADDITION to 8bpp
19:00:41  <Eddi|zuHause> b) that is already the case
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19:02:40  <SHADOW-XIII> I see, hmm, certainly replacing  whole 8bit in official release for 32bit would draw a lot of attention as the graphics looks really nice, afterwards 8 bit could be treated as 32bit replacement for slower devices
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19:05:14  <Eddi|zuHause> SHADOW-XIII: the 32bpp artists are way too uncoordinated, i am not expecting a full and coherent 32bpp release anytime soon
19:07:53  *** Hackykid [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:08:01  <SHADOW-XIII> how much % of original graphic is remade for already ? 50 ? 90 ?
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19:10:38  <SHADOW-XIII> changing topic, anyone tried new Opera 10.50 beta ? it is amazing, still little unstable but stable enough for me to move to it as my primary browser now
19:11:56  <SpComb^> don't all the geeks use Chrome these days
19:12:20  <Eddi|zuHause> SHADOW-XIII: the % complete cannot be specified precisely because they are uncoordinated
19:13:00  <SHADOW-XIII> SpComb^: chrome is weak, I cannot even change keyboard shortcuts, and new Opera is faster even than chrome
19:13:59  <SHADOW-XIII> new JavaScript engine is cracking balls men :P ... it's like 5-7 times faster than any other browser in Lifehacker test
19:21:28  <aber> other than Chrome, Safari and Firefox
19:23:34  <Xaroth> tests are biased
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19:29:52  <ccfreak2k> Could this possibly be zoomed in any further?
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19:30:17  <Rubidium> not with that patch
19:30:40  <Rubidium> anyhow, the trains looks more wrong when zoomed in that far
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19:31:23  <SpComb^> mm, big pixels
19:32:05  <Rubidium> SHADOW-XIII: they don't even know how many sprites they need to replace, so giving a percentage won't work (estimates range from ~3000 to ~10000)
19:32:46  <Rubidium> and that's only for one zoom level; they 'want' to make graphics for at least 2 and maybe 3 levels, so... 10 to 30 thousand
19:34:07  <Rubidium> not to mention that they don't have exactly a stable specification
19:34:34  <ccfreak2k> Alright, I think _DEBUG causes the binary to not work on the cube./
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19:39:34  <PeterT> Hi all
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19:53:57  <sparr> Eddi|zuHause: I am unclear how this sort of modification would fit into the capabilities of a newgrf
19:54:22  <ccfreak2k> I think libdb and/or gdb cause all other threads to not run while the main thread is being debugged.
19:54:43  <ccfreak2k> And then LWP_JoinThread() gets called, effectively causing the cube to hang.
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20:17:21  <Eddi|zuHause> sparr: that only means one of two things: adapt the modificatiions so that they can be covered by newgrfs, or adapt the newgrf spec that it covers the modifications
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20:19:59  <Wolf01> hi!
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20:20:56  <PeterT> Hi Wolf01
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20:23:37  <__ln__> night Wolf01!
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20:23:54  <peter1138> hmm
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20:24:01  <peter1138> 2 random bits is probably enough?
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20:33:36  <PeterT> English isn't in the Game Options?
20:34:00  <PeterT> I have the english_US.lng file in /lang
20:36:39  <aber> hmm? English(UK) English(US)
20:37:06  <PeterT> No, those aren't available
20:37:14  <PeterT> but most of the other languages are there
20:38:43  <aber> Probably the language monster.
20:39:08  <aber> You need to offer him cookies.
20:39:10  <PeterT> any relevant answers?
20:39:21  <aber> What did you do?
20:39:26  <ctibor|spi> learn french then .-)
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20:40:55  <aber> i vote for "Lëtzebuergesch"
20:44:57  <aber> but i believe "Luxembourgish" should be the correct spelling inside the menu.
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20:46:07  <ctibor> they have their own language?
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20:48:40  <Eddi|zuHause> they claim that it's an own language
20:48:45  <aber> yes, it's like really awkward german. But i like how they take german.
20:48:51  <Eddi|zuHause> everybody else says it's a dialect of german
20:50:27  <Eddi|zuHause> even though a lot of EU facilities are in luxembourg, the EU does not consider luxembourgish an official language of the EU
20:51:20  <Eddi|zuHause> 90% of the population there also speak french and german
20:52:38  <Eddi|zuHause> in the dialect spectrum, it's classified as "MittelfrÀnkisch"
20:52:52  <ctibor> I see
20:53:09  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: yexo * r19099 /trunk/src/ (pathfinder/opf/opf_ship.cpp table/airporttile_ids.h): -Doc: two files had the wrong name in the @file comment
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20:55:02  <Eddi|zuHause> (with the "Francs" being one of the major germanic tribes after the fall of the roman empire who moved into former roman territories)
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20:57:39  <__ln__> Luxembourg is a surprisingly french-speaking place.
20:58:59  <Eddi|zuHause> well, french is the "office" language
20:59:22  <Eddi|zuHause> luxembourgish is the "popular" language
20:59:41  <Eddi|zuHause> after german fell somewhat unpopular during WWII
21:01:36  <Eddi|zuHause> the majorly french speaking part of luxembourg was transferred to belgium somewhere in the 19th century
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21:02:36  <HackaLittleBit> evenin
21:02:47  <PeterT> Hello HackaLittleBit
21:03:27  <HackaLittleBit> STR_CONTENT_DETAIL_UPDATE gives me compile error in french.txt
21:04:20  <Yexo> just wait untill the language commit tomorrow
21:04:27  <HackaLittleBit> ok
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21:05:53  <HackaLittleBit> yexo: do you have any idear what would be a reasonable penalty if train is longer than platform?
21:06:12  <Yexo> the current penalty?
21:06:19  <Yexo> or why is it unreasonable?
21:07:51  <HackaLittleBit> Because of the long loading time also the rating goes down
21:08:02  <planetmaker> That's sensible, isn't it?
21:08:12  <HackaLittleBit> no
21:08:22  <planetmaker> I'd rate the company also bad, if I'd have to crawl through the mud to the wagon
21:08:34  <HackaLittleBit> passenger yes
21:08:46  <HackaLittleBit> pragnent women also yes
21:08:51  <HackaLittleBit> oil no
21:08:58  <Yexo> the rating doesn't go down if you have a long loading time
21:09:00  <planetmaker> oh, coal cannot complain. But if I order coal and they drop it the next street, I'd give it a bad rating, too
21:09:13  <planetmaker> Yexo: indirectly: less frequent service
21:09:17  <HackaLittleBit> :)
21:09:44  <Yexo> well the less frequent service is a choice you make
21:09:59  <planetmaker> with slow loading there's a lower max. throughput.
21:10:19  <planetmaker> But then I don't understand what's wrong with the current situation either
21:10:20  <Yexo> that's also a penalty for your own choices
21:10:27  <planetmaker> yup :-)
21:10:38  <HackaLittleBit> not only that, long trains disrupt trafffic flow
21:10:54  <HackaLittleBit> alsothats a penalty
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21:10:59  <Yexo> so the real question is: why are you making your trains so long?
21:11:15  <HackaLittleBit> because I like them
21:12:48  <HackaLittleBit> but did you see the code?
21:13:22  <Yexo> not recently
21:13:22  <HackaLittleBit> 			unloading_time += (overhang * unloading_time << 1) / 8;
21:13:48  <HackaLittleBit> unloading time is something like 40 or 20
21:14:40  <Yexo> now I'm only wondering why that line doesn't read: unloading_time += (overhang * unloading_time) / 4;
21:14:53  <HackaLittleBit> ah
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21:16:02  <HackaLittleBit> do some debugging and you will find it is rediculous
21:16:07  <Eddi|zuHause> the use of << is probably against coding style there
21:17:14  <HackaLittleBit> eddy I checked that and in assembler it shifts alsa so that is faster
21:18:15  <Bluelight> Now I'm just witing for a new router again, and then my server will be up and running.. :)
21:18:39  <Eddi|zuHause> every modern compiler can replace *2 with a shift. using * over << in arithmetic expressions increases readability
21:19:23  <HackaLittleBit> never checked that but I will:)
21:23:05  <peter1138> Yexo, 1/8th being the shortest length of a vehicle
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21:23:46  <HackaLittleBit> I think it is half a tile
21:24:08  <HackaLittleBit> 2 wagons per tile
21:24:21  <HackaLittleBit> 16/2
21:24:40  <Eddi|zuHause> yay for magic numbers ;)
21:24:46  <ccfreak2k> What's the order of operations for multiply and shift?
21:25:10  <Yexo> that doesn't matter here
21:25:12  <Eddi|zuHause> ccfreak2k: shifting is a multiplying operation, so they likely have same priority
21:26:17  <ccfreak2k> Also, how well does openttd work with thread_none?
21:26:44  <Eddi|zuHause> ccfreak2k: afair you can disable threads by a configure option
21:26:59  <ccfreak2k> I'm using a custom makefile.
21:27:02  <aber> nope, ist (*/%)(+-)(<<>>)
21:27:05  <ccfreak2k> Unless you mean "game config".
21:27:19  <Eddi|zuHause> ccfreak2k: doesn't remove the "#ifdef"s
21:28:01  <HackaLittleBit> yexo the rating goes realy down with long loading time
21:28:09  <ccfreak2k> You mean NO_THREADS? :)
21:28:24  <frosch123> ccfreak2k: threads are used during map generation, autosave, and sdl video rendering. maybe also sound
21:29:17  <ccfreak2k> frosch123, what I meant by my question is, would disabling multithreaded support be some kind of mortal sin and cause my build to break in unspeakable ways?
21:29:18  <Rubidium> ./configure --without-thread
21:29:33  <frosch123> likely not
21:29:34  <Rubidium> ./configure --without-threads
21:30:00  <Rubidium> no idea whether it actually works though
21:30:11  <Eddi|zuHause> ccfreak2k: no, it should not break anything, but you lose some gimmics like progress bar during world generation and saving in the background
21:30:31  <ccfreak2k> That's ok, I'll deal with it.
21:31:27  <ccfreak2k> I -really- should figure out what's causing it to hang, though.
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21:32:29  <Rubidium> yup, --without-threads seems to work fine
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21:39:50  <ccfreak2k> Also, fun fact: in my current builds, it takes about 10-15 seconds to reach the first GenerateWorld() call in ttd_main().
21:40:23  <peter1138> speedy
21:40:35  <Rubidium> that's better than my laptop (if I include booting)
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21:51:11  <frosch123> ah, the revision number has passed the number of missing translations
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21:57:25  <sparr> Eddi|zuHause: that would be a huge undertaking, to add an entire new class of newgrfs (something like "Game Type", maybe)
21:59:08  <sparr> you would need an entirely new scripting engine of some sort, among other large tasks
22:00:17  <SmatZ> frosch123: just add new language ;)
22:02:11  <ccfreak2k> HOLY HELL
22:02:13  <ccfreak2k> IT WOKR
22:02:14  <ccfreak2k> S
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22:03:22  <Nite_Owl> Hello all
22:03:47  <SmatZ> hello Nite_Owl
22:03:57  <frosch123> just which?
22:04:11  <Nite_Owl> Hello SmatZ
22:05:35  <Wolf01> 'night all
22:05:40  <Nite_Owl> I take it you are aware of the problems with today's Windows 64bit nightly ??
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22:05:53  <HackaLittleBit> nite
22:06:16  <SmatZ> Nite_Owl: I think we aren't
22:06:33  <Yexo> Nite_Owl: only if you mean the french translation
22:06:52  <SmatZ> there is known problem with win32 binaries hanging when map generating is cancelled
22:07:38  <Nite_Owl> not sure of the cause but once applied the game will not even start - faults right off the bat
22:08:11  <Yexo> please open a bug report at and attach the crash.log/crash.dmp files
22:08:25  <HackaLittleBit> Smatz: since when do you know that?
22:08:31  <SmatZ> HackaLittleBit: today
22:08:39  *** Rubix`` [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:08:45  <HackaLittleBit> tnx
22:08:46  <SpComb^> ccfreak2k: unlikely!
22:09:07  <Nite_Owl> I did notice that the zip file did NOT contain the usual number of files - 71 as opposed to the usual 84
22:09:27  <SmatZ> missing lang files?
22:09:40  <ccfreak2k> SpComb^, you got me, I haven't verified that it works 100% yet.
22:09:58  <ccfreak2k> However, I got this lovely screenshot:
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22:10:18  <SmatZ> ccfreak2k: great :)
22:10:21  <Nite_Owl> not sure - I only noticed as it ran through my virus scanner
22:10:50  <SmatZ> ccfreak2k: why not 1.0.0?
22:10:59  <ccfreak2k> SmatZ, it's still in beta right?
22:11:16  <SmatZ> yes
22:11:26  <Yexo> in he r19098 win64 zip are only 32 language files, in the r19068 files there are 46 language files
22:11:41  <ccfreak2k> That would be why.
22:11:52  <ccfreak2k> As soon as 1.0 is finalized, I'll port my patch over.
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22:12:32  <Yexo> the french language file looks corrupted (43kk instead of +- 100kb) and all languages alfabetically before french are missing
22:12:36  <SmatZ> Nite_Owl: crashes for me on win64 too
22:13:07  <Yexo> same holds for the win32 zip file
22:13:35  <Yexo> and also a crash
22:13:45  <Yexo> I guess due to the corrupted french language file
22:14:03  <frosch123> <- matches actually
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22:14:09  <Nite_Owl> I know there were Windows compiling problems yesterday so I thought this just might be an extension of that
22:14:22  <frosch123> it did not compile any languages after french
22:15:07  <SmatZ> right
22:15:18  <SmatZ> so it fails because it tries to load czech.lng, but it is missing?
22:15:24  <SmatZ> whoa :-p
22:16:31  <frosch123> so Nite_Owl, you have to pick one of the other languages :)
22:16:50  <SmatZ> hmm
22:16:54  <SmatZ> but it doesn't crash on linux
22:16:59  <SmatZ> when I remove czech.lng
22:17:08  <SmatZ> it would be win-specific, and that's strange :)
22:17:09  <frosch123> maybe english.lng is more important
22:17:35  <SmatZ> even if I remove english.lng
22:17:40  <frosch123> or the broken french
22:17:42  <SmatZ> it starts in... finnish?
22:17:44  <ccfreak2k> Sound works.
22:17:50  <Yexo> callstack
22:18:02  <Nite_Owl> I would if I could get it to start
22:18:18  <SmatZ> oh
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22:18:49  <Yexo> it's segfaulting because the french language file is only half-complete
22:19:05  <frosch123> so Nite_Owl, try deleting french.lng
22:19:18  <Nite_Owl> I reverted back to 19068 already
22:19:38  <HackaLittleBit> my compilation stops at line 1813 in french.txt
22:20:30  <Nite_Owl> but I can give it a shot for the sake of finding out what is wrong
22:21:00  <Yexo> the problem is already fixed in wt, just wait until the language commit tomorrow
22:22:04  <Nite_Owl> not a problem - I think I can hold out until then
22:22:27  <Yexo> you can also just delete the french language file and play with a compiled language
22:23:34  *** Alpraaz [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:24:13  <Nite_Owl> I never use any language other than English anyway
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22:24:34  <Yexo> the english language file wasn't complied in the latest nightly so that's a problem
22:24:58  <frosch123> night
22:25:02  <SmatZ> just removing french.lng solves the problem
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22:25:14  <SmatZ> but OTTD starts in Estonian (?)
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22:25:46  <Yexo> all linux builds have valid language files for all languages and no language file for french
22:25:53  <Yexo> that seems like the proper behavior
22:26:29  <Rubidium> blaim MSVC :)
22:26:30  <SmatZ> still the fact OTTD crashes is disturbing
22:26:54  *** [alt]buster [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
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22:27:22  <Nite_Owl> as long as you are aware of and have fixed the problem that is all that maters. I am more than happy with that and will wait for tomorrow's nightly
22:27:50  <Rubidium> to stop it from crashing you'd probably need to add some metadata to the language file to check for validity, i.e. a checksum
22:28:19  <Rubidium> besides that, I think strgen should remove the file if it fails to compile it
22:28:30  <Nite_Owl> although I do seem to be the bringing of ill news the past two days
22:28:47  <Nite_Owl> *bringer
22:28:49  <SmatZ> yeah, shot the messenger :-)
22:29:38  <Rubidium> oh, someone already reported it as a bug :)
22:30:08  <Rubidium> too bad I don't really have the time to fix that stuff
22:37:13  * Eddi|zuHause listens to "MIAAUUU" in stereo
22:38:16  <SmatZ> impressive, broken french.lng managed to crash valgrind :)
22:38:35  <SmatZ> I will spend some time with it ;)
22:41:49  <SmatZ> ReadFileToMem(_dynlang.ent[lang_index].file, &len, 200000);
22:42:10  <SmatZ> maxsize == 200000, greek.lng is reaching that limit :)
22:42:30  <ccfreak2k> Timed.
22:42:51  <ccfreak2k> It takes 36.5 seconds for OpenTTD to go from start to title screen.
22:43:29  <SmatZ> 24 seconds generating empty map + loading intro?
22:43:44  <ccfreak2k> The map probably takes about 10 of those seconds.
22:44:04  <SmatZ> you have debug build, right?
22:44:18  <ccfreak2k> It's compiled with -g -Os -DNDEBUG.
22:45:03  <ccfreak2k> It also doesn't init network or AI.
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23:08:17  <rait> r19098 crashes on startup. is this reported?
23:08:24  <Yexo> yse
23:08:39  <Yexo> remove french.lng from the lang directory and it works
23:08:58  <rait> okay
23:09:46  <rait> somehow my default language has changed
23:10:11  <Yexo> all languages alphabetically before french aren't included in the last nightly
23:10:52  <rait> including english? thats bad
23:11:55  <ccfreak2k> Well, that's the thing about nightly builds.
23:11:57  <ccfreak2k> Sometimes they break.
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23:12:40  <rait> so ... i fired up beta4 and it's still spanish. how do i change it?
23:13:22  <rait> never mind ...
23:14:25  <rait> is only the latest nightly affected?
23:14:45  <Rubidium> only the nightly build with MSVC
23:15:59  <HackaLittleBit> not only also with msys
23:16:39  <Rubidium> true, but way way less than MSVC
23:17:43  <HackaLittleBit> you mean slower?
23:17:51  <Rubidium> i.e. msys builds (or all non MSVC builds) only crash if you used French, MSVC builds crash if the chosen langauge was alphabetically less than or equal to french
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23:19:12  <HackaLittleBit> I took french out before compiling with msys
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23:22:07  <PeterT> Visual studio up and running!
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23:25:15  <PeterT> ccfreak2k: Congrats on getting ti to work on GameCube!
23:25:24  <PeterT> too bad no one has a gamecube anymore
23:25:33  <ccfreak2k> Au contraire.
23:25:40  <ccfreak2k> It would run perfectly well on the Wii as well.
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23:37:45  <sparr> Is it possible for a newgrf to affect vehicles from all other GRFs?  cost, running cost, speed, etc
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23:43:50  <Rubidium> sparr: possibly, although it might get tricky with vehicle pools
23:47:10  <Terkhen> good night
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23:48:05  <Eddi|zuHause> sparr: a grf can change vehicle basecosts globally if it doesn't define any vehicles itself
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