Log for #openttd on 19th March 2010:
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00:23:48  <Eddi|zuHause> how do people get totally distorted 2MB PNGs up in the forum?
00:23:55  <Eddi|zuHause> it's worse than JPG...
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00:24:38  <Yexo> by resizing the image slightly i think
00:24:55  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: are you talking about the stupid thumbnails?
00:25:14  <Rubidium> those where the forum makes 2 MB PNGs from 100 KiB PNGs?
00:25:14  <Eddi|zuHause> no, i disabled images in the forum, including the thumbnails
00:25:19  <Eddi|zuHause> but the real image is 2MB
00:25:25  <Yexo> that one
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00:25:47  <Eddi|zuHause> specifically, i disabled images _because_ of the thumbnails
00:25:51  <Eddi|zuHause> they are horrible
00:26:01  <Eddi|zuHause> they aren't even real thumbnails
00:26:05  <Yexo> thumbnail in that case is 'only' 780kb
00:26:13  <Eddi|zuHause> thumbnails are something like 100x60 pixels
00:26:27  <Rubidium> hmm... making screenshot to JPG, then seeing you should post PNG and converting it?
00:26:36  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know what huge thumbs orudge has, though
00:26:57  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe he used the sledge hammer a few too many times :p
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00:34:51  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: yexo * r19462 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_airport.cpp station_base.h table/airport_defaults.h): -Codechange: use the AS_GENERIC macro also for the dummy airport
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02:52:21  <Nite> Hi
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02:54:14  <Nite> im just so stunned by the richness of ottd, especially compared to commercial "build up" strategy games, cant think of anything with that much detail or finetunign adaptability
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02:56:03  <Nite> ottd is simply ahead when it comes to strategy games
02:56:12  <Eddi|zuHause> that's because commercial games don't get 10 years of development time
02:57:11  <Nite> well there are game series that get that much development time - but only their graphics developes while gameplay often shrinks.
02:57:32  <Nite> in ottd its all about the gameplay, constantly growing
02:57:32  <Eddi|zuHause> they get one or two years, maybe an addon half a year later, and then they start from scratch with a new game
02:58:26  <Eddi|zuHause> tbh, the graphics don't evolve because we don't have the manpower for that, not because we don't want to
02:59:10  <Nite> i think of c&c series it was great at the beginning but did not evolve
02:59:51  <Nite> last anno title is stunning though
03:00:46  <Jolteon> C&C RA2 = best.
03:01:03  <Nite> throwing out features killed lot of commercial games i think.
03:01:57  <Nite> c&c & ra WaS the best i think its now a not more than a nice gimmick
03:02:11  <Eddi|zuHause> they don't "throw out" features they "not include" features because they couldn't be finished in time
03:02:41  <Eddi|zuHause> just go to the development forum, and you have at least half a dozen large features that are "not included" in openttd
03:02:55  <Nite> many games where what some call streamlined ...
03:03:31  <Nite> i was not talking about ottd - clearly ottd keeps all the good features!
03:04:01  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think you understand how software development works
03:04:32  <Nite> again i get missunderstood in these forums
03:05:59  <Nite> i was compring ottd to commercial and think that ottd is better.
03:06:16  <Nite> what makes you think i don't understand?
03:06:46  <Eddi|zuHause> you talk about "thrown out" features, where that hardly ever happens
03:07:26  <Nite> it happened in sooo many game series.
03:08:00  <Eddi|zuHause> please, give some examples
03:09:00  <Nite> worst of all are teh 3d shooters i think - simply generic. tooo many to name.
03:09:44  <Nite> with "throw out" i also mean throw out of the plan.
03:10:03  <Eddi|zuHause> that may be true, but this is irrelevant, as you didn't actually give an example of a feature
03:10:58  <Nite> may it be as irrelevant as you like it to be - just wanted to praise ottd a little. ;)
03:12:35  <Eddi|zuHause> ottd does not need praising, we know it is good. what you did was downtalk other games, without giving proper reasons
03:14:09  <Eddi|zuHause> you just said "3d shooters are bad", which, if games were humans, would be borderline racist
03:16:06  <Eddi|zuHause> that may just be influenced by your personal preference. also, 3d shooters may look "generic" because there's generally an overflowed market
03:16:45  <Eddi|zuHause> because the "density" of games is higher, it is natural that the difference in features is lower
03:17:54  <Nite> true its a personal preference - simply have enough from the 3dshooter genere
03:18:12  <Eddi|zuHause> openttd looks so "good", because it is serving a niche market that was overlooked in the last decade
03:19:26  <De_Ghosty> hey look
03:19:27  <De_Ghosty>
03:19:46  <Nite> true taht it stands on its own ... (almost not mentining the flawed loco)
03:20:56  <Nite> nice figures
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03:21:58  <Nite> ej and get a littel mor positive eddi - enjoy some praise sometimes ...
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03:22:25  <Eddi|zuHause> "not being yelled at is praise enough"
03:23:30  <Nite> so you are clearly involved with the developement of ottd?
03:23:47  <Eddi|zuHause> in angloamerican context, "praise" is just a euphemism for "random noise to ease, when you actually want to say something bad"
03:24:08  <Eddi|zuHause> only marginally
03:24:22  <Eddi|zuHause> i have provided a patch here and there
03:24:23  <Nite> as a pessimist point of view, that might be true ...
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03:25:06  <Nite> ok so i unprise all the patches you have done to show how much i like them ;)
03:26:41  <Eddi|zuHause> and i'm not actually a pessimist... more a pragmatist that tries to reduce things to the relevant bit
03:27:45  <Eddi|zuHause> which is why i get so annoyed quickly at people who use so many words to say few things, or repeat themselves often
03:27:49  <Nite> so it was relevant to clear out your disaffection to praise
03:27:56  <Nite> i geuss
03:28:25  <Eddi|zuHause> "praise" is just one level below "spam"
03:28:46  <Nite> well .. ahem .. you use quit alot words in your reactions
03:28:47  <Eddi|zuHause> in information/noise ratio
03:29:52  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but each word is carefully crafted to carry a lot of content
03:30:46  <Eddi|zuHause> plus, if i exaggerate that, people tend to not understand me anymore
03:31:32  <Eddi|zuHause> so i have learned to cater to their need of noise
03:32:07  <Nite> and this channel seems to be a good place sometimes to get your dose of beeing misunderstood. ;)
03:33:25  <Pikka> Eddi|zuHause: it's possible that the "noise" contains meaning which you fail to decypher? :)
03:33:59  <Nite> the question of "meaning" is a hard one ...
03:34:14  <Eddi|zuHause> no, the "noise" contains information that is trivial to me and gets filtered out, but other people need that noise to follow the argumentation
03:35:20  <Nite> what you call noise might sometimes be information you simly cant decode and further recieve.
03:35:38  <Eddi|zuHause> my problem is that i always think two steps ahead of everyone else, so if i directly channeled my thoughts into words, everyone misses two steps of the argument
03:36:28  <Nite> you mean you think faster tahn you can talk/type (?)
03:37:00  <Nite> what a genius u are - ups sry a praise that was ...
03:37:02  <Eddi|zuHause> no. well, yes, but that's not what i mean
03:37:43  <Nite> in the end we all mean 42
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04:30:58  <OTTDNoob> Hey guys I have my printing works making goods but where do I send them for cash? I checked wiki and it said send it to town so I set up some truckstops in a near by town and have goods vehicles taking them there but Im not getting anything
04:32:15  <OTTDNoob> Anyone here?
04:32:41  <OTTDNoob> Help a noob?
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04:35:53  <OTTDNoob> Anyone here?
04:39:41  <OTTDNoob> Someone want to help me quick
04:39:41  <Pikka> OTTDNoob: the station at the town needs to accept goods
04:39:59  <OTTDNoob> they are getting to the station but just sitting there
04:40:05  <Pikka> generally only larger buildings accept goods, you can use the ? button to check what a building accepts
04:40:36  <OTTDNoob> hmm alright...could I have picked a town to small for the goods then?
04:40:44  <De_Ghosty> click on the station
04:40:50  <De_Ghosty> it should say what it accepts
04:40:57  <De_Ghosty> at the bottom of the info
04:41:24  <Pikka> yes, you'll need to find a bigger town, or wait until the town grows before you can deliver goods.
04:41:33  <OTTDNoob> ok...and if it doesnt accept goods can I "refit" it like I can the boats?
04:42:15  <OTTDNoob> Alright thanks
04:42:44  <De_Ghosty> yes
04:42:46  <De_Ghosty> you can
04:42:49  <Pikka> can you refit a town?
04:42:49  <De_Ghosty> sent it to station
04:42:55  <De_Ghosty> i mean depot
04:43:06  <De_Ghosty> if he can refit boat he can refit bus?
04:43:13  <Pikka> no
04:43:23  <OTTDNoob> I think Pikka got it...the town is to small
04:43:42  <OTTDNoob> Thanks guys Im going back to my new addiciton =P
04:43:44  <Pikka> with the default vehicles only planes and ships can be refitted, afaia...
04:43:46  <Pikka> have fun :)
04:43:54  <De_Ghosty> load a ottdcoop game
04:43:57  <De_Ghosty> and be amazed
04:44:03  <De_Ghosty> and more addicted
04:44:10  <OTTDNoob> what is coop?
04:45:31  <De_Ghosty> it's where alot of us come together and build these gigantic things which would take eons
04:45:32  <De_Ghosty>
04:45:42  <De_Ghosty> and you learn alot of good building styles
04:46:15  <Pikka> or about openttd coop building styles, which is not necessarily the same thing ;)
04:46:44  <De_Ghosty> playing 2 game of it is better then playing 100 of normal things
04:47:04  <OTTDNoob> Its multiplayer?
04:47:22  <De_Ghosty> ottd is mutiplayer don't u need the internet button when u start?
04:47:41  <OTTDNoob> My bad i mean is the coop thing a multiplayer thing
04:47:53  <De_Ghosty> yea
04:48:27  <OTTDNoob> Im using the newest version 1.00 or w/e it is and most multiplayer games are using .75 so I havent got on there yet
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04:49:55  <OTTDNoob> Thanks for the help again I'll check out the coop after I play a bit more
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05:11:49  <Nite> any quick way of resetting ottd to default options?
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05:12:08  <FauxFaux> Delete the cfg. ¬_¬
05:12:21  <Nite> thx
05:14:25  <OTTDNoob> Is it possible to get semi intelligent ai? I've downloaded the online content but they all go bankrupt and ask me to buy them out for 
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07:18:52  <Terkhen> good morning
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07:55:25  <Pikka> good morning
07:55:54  <Yexo> morning
07:56:02  <andythenorth> morning
07:57:07  <Pikka> snap
07:58:08  <Pikka> articulated ships!
07:58:11  <Pikka> articulated aircraft!
07:58:19  <Pikka> articulated town buildings!
07:58:29  <Pikka> articulated new cargos!
07:58:34  <Noldo> stations?
07:58:36  <andythenorth> Pikka: you score 1 out of 4
07:58:44  <andythenorth> try again
07:58:51  <Pikka> what's wrong with articulated aircraft?
07:59:03  <Pikka> could make combis :)
07:59:07  <andythenorth>
07:59:19  <Pikka> or that :)
07:59:28  <andythenorth> revised score: 2 out of 4
08:00:00  <andythenorth> meanwhile....Yexo, would you mind if I posted your industry window patch to the development forum?
08:00:38  <Yexo> andythenorth: go ahead
08:00:48  <Yexo> as long as it's clear that it won't go in trunk in this form
08:01:30  <andythenorth> Yup.  It's more for discussion
08:01:39  <andythenorth> "Boom" another power
08:01:43  <andythenorth> station just closed
08:02:42  <andythenorth> Pikka: seen this?
08:03:01  <andythenorth> You'd be looking at the debug output in the industry window
08:03:08  <andythenorth> Handy patch
08:03:18  <Pikka> how rare
08:04:20  * andythenorth time for tea
08:11:58  <andythenorth> Yexo: how much work is involved in adding a new window to the game?
08:12:12  <Yexo> depends on the window
08:12:18  <Yexo> a simple one: not much work
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08:12:55  <andythenorth> It would be a debug / inspect menu, appearance is not the most important factor.
08:13:02  <Yexo> all the work around (making sure it's closed when it needs to be closed, refreshed when it needs to be etc) is more work
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08:15:30  <andythenorth> I am going to do a small design proposal for how 'inspect' could work....
08:15:53  <andythenorth> I think it would be better as a separate window.
08:16:03  <Yexo> I agree it should be a seperate window
08:17:03  <andythenorth> is it a major hassle to have a GUI button that only appears if a certain config option is enabled?
08:17:12  <Yexo> not really
08:18:38  * andythenorth goes draws something
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09:10:34  <andythenorth> Yexo:
09:10:45  <andythenorth> see the little 'bug' icon?
09:11:00  <andythenorth> I am thinking something like that brings up a simple menu with minimal styling
09:11:35  <Yexo> why for towns?
09:12:41  <andythenorth> hmm
09:12:43  <andythenorth> good question
09:12:56  <andythenorth> Think I intended that to be stations.
09:13:06  * andythenorth more sleep would lead to less fail :o
09:15:02  <andythenorth> what is 'variety distribution' in the world gen screen?
09:15:07  <andythenorth> 'tis new to me
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09:21:34  <Terkhen>
09:23:05  <andythenorth> cool
09:24:12  * andythenorth wonders if the world gen gui could use a small amount of love...
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09:32:34  <peter1138> lol
09:32:39  <peter1138> more "realistic"
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09:36:54  <Pikka> hmm
09:36:59  <Pikka> interesting coastline effect D:
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09:37:41  <Pikka> but I do like the flat areas and mountains :o
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09:40:10  <andythenorth> hmm
09:40:22  <andythenorth> several bays closed off by a single land tile
09:40:34  <andythenorth> seems like that should be optimis-able?
09:40:53  <andythenorth> and that one looks just like san francisco :o
09:41:15  <Pikka> I get spiky coastlines on mountainous/low/rough/medium :D
09:41:39  <peter1138> heh
09:42:10  <peter1138> there are ways to tweak it to produce large water masses
09:42:18  <peter1138> (source code editing, mind you)
09:43:06  <Pikka>
09:44:53  * Pikka toddles off to make dinner
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09:49:07  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: yexo * r19463 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: add helper function to determine if an airport has at least one hangar
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09:51:43  <peter1138> moonscape, eh?
09:51:54  <andythenorth> tee hee
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09:56:45  <andythenorth> Yexo:
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09:57:20  <Yexo> andythenorth: you already got code for that or is it just a mockup?
09:57:25  <andythenorth> mockup
09:57:30  <andythenorth> way beyond my skills right now
09:58:28  <andythenorth> hmm
09:58:36  <andythenorth> it should be pinnable.  Is pinning a big hassle?
09:58:57  <Yexo> pinning is easy
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10:12:51  <fonsinchen> shouldn't STR_TOOLBAR_RAILTYPE_VELOCITY be near the other toolbar strings in english.txt?
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10:32:56  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: yexo * r19464 /trunk/src/ (6 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: move GetHangarTile to Airport
10:44:01  <Pikka> peter1138: indeed :)
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11:18:18  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: yexo * r19465 /trunk/src/ (8 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: support for multi-tile hangars
11:20:33  <dih> yumm?
11:20:36  * dih nibbles
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11:53:35  <peter1138> E: main.c: Failed to create '/tmp/pulse-petern': Permission denied
11:53:36  <peter1138> E: main.c: Failed to create '/tmp/pulse-petern': Permission denied
11:53:37  <peter1138> hrrrm
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12:17:53  <peter1138> ... i see
12:20:36  <Rubidium> yeah, that definitely solved the insecure temporary file creation
12:20:52  <peter1138> *nod*
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12:22:18  <peter1138> also why is it even suid root :s
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12:23:22  <blathijs> Pulse isn't suid root for me?
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12:25:01  <peter1138> is for me, in lenny
12:25:14  <thingwath> wasn't it because it wants higher priority?
12:25:38  <peter1138> no, that priority can be gained without root privileges
12:26:50  <thingwath> file capabilities? that's quite new feature, might not be available everywhere
12:26:58  <peter1138> huh?
12:28:59  <thingwath> how else can you get < 0 priority?
12:29:20  <peter1138> nice is irrelevant
12:29:30  <peter1138> rtprio is what is required
12:29:45  <peter1138> either way, both can be granted via securtiy/limits.conf
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12:32:33  <thingwath> that's granted per user
12:32:54  <Noldo> then pulse can be run as pulseuser
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12:37:02  <thingwath> that'd be solution, of course, I don't know why many distributions rather run it as the current logged in user
12:37:25  <blathijs> thingwath: Because that's how pulseaudio is designed
12:37:44  <blathijs> Each user has his own pulse daemon
12:39:06  <thingwath> of course :) but why?
12:39:33  <peter1138> thingwath, or per group
12:40:19  <Rubidium> thingwath: why does sdl + pulseaudio prefer the sdl alsa backend + virtual alsa device?
12:40:19  <blathijs> thingwath: Because that allows complete separation of users' audio, for privacy reasons
12:41:02  <blathijs> thingwath: And because that allows things like shared memory to pass audio around, passing audio data across user boundaries is either slow, or insecure I think
12:41:03  <Rubidium> if you want to know, ask the developers. Don't ask the users
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12:41:42  <blathijs> thingwath: There's a decent page about why "System mode" isn't recommended on the pulseaudio wiki, you should readi t
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12:46:39  <thingwath> ok :) I have pulseaudio suid too, but I don't know why, because there is this "rtkit" thing...
12:47:06  <thingwath> and file capabilities aren't even used, that's sad
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12:51:21  <blathijs> thingwath: Might be that the lenny version hadn't implemented that yet
12:51:35  <blathijs> upstream is at 0.9.21 already by now
12:51:49  <thingwath> no, this is fedora (and it has 0.9.21)
12:52:42  <peter1138> rtkit got flamed massively on LAD
12:53:07  <thingwath> it seems pretty ugly
12:53:17  <peter1138> yet another *kit to do something that's already possible
12:54:14  <thingwath> that group approach allows any member of the group to run anything in rt prio, that's not very nice...
12:54:52  <peter1138> don't add users you don't trust...
12:57:39  <thingwath> I can trust users, but not every bit of code that they might run :)
12:59:03  <Ammler> <-- when do you get this color news?
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13:37:05  <dih> YAY - php and apache segfaults on our test and qa servers :-)
13:40:31  <SpComb^> rewrite in Python
13:40:45  <dih> yeah - er - no
13:41:09  <dih> i mean - i'd love to, but i guess my collegues would not be to happy
13:41:57  <Rubidium> ieuw... python
13:43:03  <andythenorth> Terkhen: those industry closing logs are really useful
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13:44:49  <dih> (nearly) anything > php
13:45:03  <dih> and i think python would fit the definition of (nearly) anything
13:45:29  <andythenorth> anyone here like stats maths?
13:45:41  <andythenorth> Terkhen has given me logs of industry closure
13:46:23  <andythenorth> I need to know if statistically my nfo code produces different results to game's closure code, or if they are statistically the same
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13:51:36  <andythenorth> hmm
13:52:50  <Eddi|zuHause> statistics are evil
13:53:28  <Noldo> andythenorth: sounds quite basic
13:54:15  <andythenorth> Noldo: it's just some kind of frequency plot or something.  I'm not sure exactly.
13:54:18  <andythenorth>
13:54:49  <andythenorth> It's probably chi squared or mu or some statistical thing.  I always preferred trig to stats tbh
13:56:28  <Belugas> hello all
13:57:00  <dih> hey ho Belugas
13:57:11  <Belugas> dih!
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13:57:27  <dih> :-)
13:57:40  <dih> !
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13:57:42  <dih> and you?
13:57:59  <Noldo> andythenorth: do you have any idea what kind of distribution the closure times follow?
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13:58:53  <andythenorth> Noldo: unfortunately no
13:59:15  <andythenorth> Although I would expect that for five years they are very flat, then there is a large spike
13:59:50  <andythenorth> hmmm....maybe a chart of closures per month by industry type would be enough
13:59:59  <andythenorth> then we can just look at the shape of it
14:00:14  <Pikka> peter1138
14:00:26  <Pikka> where was that sound effect list again? :P
14:01:04  * Belugas is fine, and as usually, very busy. Thanks dih
14:01:11  <Noldo> I haven't studied anything that doesn't asume normal distribution :)
14:01:13  <Belugas> Pikka!
14:01:16  <Belugas> andythenorth!
14:01:18  <Pikka> Belugas!
14:01:21  <Belugas> Noldo!
14:01:22  <TrueBrain> Belugas: stop being busy
14:01:23  <Terkhen> andythenorth: you are welcome :)
14:01:24  <TrueBrain> we need you
14:01:30  <Noldo> Belugas o/
14:01:41  <Belugas> as do my boss and as do my wife, TrueBrain
14:01:47  <TrueBrain> fair point
14:01:51  <Noldo> what about the kids?
14:01:52  <Belugas> sadly...
14:01:58  <andythenorth> there are more wives!  There is only one game
14:02:20  <Belugas> just one kid, enough to grab the last remaining free time ;)
14:02:35  <andythenorth> ah.  I now know about those small people
14:03:42  *** Jupix [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:04:31  <andythenorth> closure protection for secondary industries (currently five years).  10 sound better, or 15?  25 is as high as I am prepared to go.
14:04:50  <Pikka> 10 sounds good
14:05:12  <andythenorth> hmmm....does nfo get to know the map size?
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14:07:18  <Hirundo> yes
14:07:58  <Pikka> good question, and good answer!
14:08:16  <Pikka> variable 13 :)
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14:13:31  <andythenorth> hmm
14:13:34  <andythenorth> how useful
14:14:34  <andythenorth> grf authors could do some naughty things with that list
14:14:54  <andythenorth> plane speed factor = 0.25?  Multiply all plane speeds by 4!
14:14:58  <andythenorth> mwah hahah etc
14:15:10  <andythenorth> of course, only badly behaved grf authors would think of doing that
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14:41:48  <Pikka|afk> andy: I use it to change running costs, but not speeds. :)
14:41:54  *** Pikka|afk is now known as Pikka
14:45:24  <andythenorth> slowing industry closure rates on a huge map might be worthwhile
14:45:33  <andythenorth> but I don't fancy tackling that maths today :)
14:45:39  <andythenorth> or this month even
14:46:26  <andythenorth> so 10 years closure protection, then, if my code's working correctly, industries start going "BOOM"
14:46:57  <andythenorth> and depending on the randomisation, an industry might take up to about 25 years to go "BOOM"
14:47:31  * andythenorth serving suggestion only.  contents may vary from the illustration on the packet
14:49:11  <Jolteon> I hope the 'boom' isn't literal.
14:49:35  <Jolteon> Although, it may be fun to watch an Industry get deconstructed when it dies.
14:49:41  <Jolteon> as some eye candy.
14:49:48  <Jolteon> (Basically the reverse of it being built)
14:49:54  <Jolteon> If one can play that animation backwards?
14:50:10  <Jolteon> Sequence, not animation.
14:50:17  <andythenorth> Jolteon: think that was discussed some where
14:50:26  <Jolteon> Oh :o
14:50:39  <andythenorth> possibly as a reason why we can't have animated tiles around industries (other than fields) meh
14:50:46  * andythenorth grumps
14:51:11  <Jolteon> I'd never heard about the no anim tiles around them :o
14:52:04  <andythenorth> Jolteon:
14:52:38  <andythenorth> hmm
14:52:54  * andythenorth considers showing players 'high' or 'low' chance of closuer
14:52:57  <andythenorth> closure /s
14:53:16  <andythenorth> nah screw it.  let them live in fear  :P
14:53:56  <Jolteon> Add it as a toggleable thing?
14:54:00  <andythenorth> no
14:54:02  <Jolteon> So people can chose to live in fear, or knowledge?
14:54:05  <andythenorth> no
14:54:13  * andythenorth *hates* too many options
14:54:28  <andythenorth> however there *will* be a 'never close' option
14:54:40  <andythenorth> that will be bundled with some other options under 'easy' or 'sandbox' FIRS
14:54:46  <dih> TrueBrain: the api available behind the translator.... was there an api for bananas too?
14:55:09  <Jolteon> Only thing that currently annoys me is building a nice network
14:55:12  <Jolteon> then at the end of it all
14:55:13  <dih> on second thought, forget it
14:55:16  <Jolteon> the freaking industry closes.
14:55:36  <Jolteon> It'd be nice if it was possible for an industry to detect activity near it, so if it looks like it will be connected in the near future, it stays open an extra month or tow.
14:55:44  <Jolteon> two*
14:57:04  <TrueBrain> dih: nope
14:57:11  <TrueBrain> well, the protocols OpenTTD uses :p
14:57:41  <dih> i was thinking along the line of querying bananas for new grf names ^^
14:57:52  <dih> but then not every new grf is on bananas
14:58:01  <dih> thus i might just store results in a memcache server ^^
14:58:10  <andythenorth> Jolteon: that annoys everyone it seems.  I can't fix it the way you describe though.  Not easily anyway.  And if I started detecting stations or whatever....hmmm it's just a headache.
14:58:45  <Jolteon> Is there actually any way for an industry to even detect a station being built near it? (or just detect a newly built piece of track near it)
14:58:56  <andythenorth> query nearby tiles often.
14:58:58  <Rubidium> dih: the 'updater' knows way more NewGRFs
14:59:12  <Jolteon> andythenorth: Wouldn't that be CPU intensive if all the industries had to do that?
14:59:23  <andythenorth> Jolteon: do it once a month, should be ok
14:59:28  <Jolteon> ah, okay.
14:59:29  <andythenorth> but it's baroque.
14:59:30  <dih> Rubidium: do tell me about the 'updater' :-)
14:59:37  <dih> can i query it?
14:59:41  <Rubidium> no
14:59:44  <dih> :-)
15:00:04  <Rubidium> it's the part of the masterserver that queries game servers for their data/whether they are still online
15:00:04  <Jolteon> Also about the switch that disables tree growth
15:00:06  <dih> would you allow me to query it if i turned OpenTTDLib into a webservice?
15:00:13  <Jolteon> Does that also disable trees growing around the sawmill in tropical?
15:00:30  <andythenorth> do trees grow around the sawmill?
15:00:35  <Rubidium> Jolteon: depending on the actual setting of that switch: yes
15:00:40  <Jolteon> drat.
15:00:40  <andythenorth> I thought players had to plant the damn things
15:00:44  <Rubidium> andythenorth: s/sawmill/lumber mill/
15:00:53  <peter1138> depends where the lumber mill is placed
15:00:59  <Jolteon> Is there any way to add an exception to it, so it is safe to play tropical with it off, but not affect industry?
15:01:01  <andythenorth> I hate the fricking sawmill
15:01:03  <andythenorth> lumber mill
15:01:04  <Rubidium> peter1138: yeah, that too
15:01:06  <andythenorth> whatever
15:01:21  <Jolteon> I can't stand tree growth, but i'd forget to manually place trees around the lumber yard.
15:01:32  <Jolteon> I don't spose that'd ever be 'fixed' as such?
15:01:43  <Jolteon> As technically, it is doing exactly what the setting is meant to
15:01:45  <Rubidium> Jolteon: yes, but adding that exception makes the tile loop computational much more complex
15:01:45  <dih> Rubidium: or would you prefer me keeping track myself?
15:01:56  <Jolteon> Rubidium: oh.
15:02:05  <Jolteon> I guess that'd be bad for overall efficiency
15:02:10  <Jolteon> thus, not really plausible to put in.
15:02:25  <Rubidium> yes, but as I said: you can enable tree growth only in rainforest areas
15:02:38  <Jolteon> really? :Lo
15:02:39  <Rubidium> i.e. the whole map except rainforest has no trees
15:02:47  * Jolteon launches openttd and carefully looks through the settings.
15:04:22  <Jolteon> If when creating the map, the tree algorithm is Non, would trees naturally spawn as the game progresses? (Presuming rainforest only was on)
15:04:43  <Rubidium> yes
15:04:48  <Rubidium> quite quickly actually
15:05:06  <Jolteon> ah, thats okay.
15:06:31  <andythenorth> Jolteon: would something like this help you make decisions about network building?
15:06:32  <andythenorth>
15:06:57  <andythenorth> it's intended to help, but not supposed to give 100% of the answer.
15:07:31  <Jolteon> It'd be better if it was less vague, and more helpful.
15:08:21  <andythenorth> Jolteon: the future is uncertain grasshopper
15:08:31  <andythenorth> How I can be certain what the random bits are going to be?
15:08:50  <Jolteon> make the random less random? :p
15:09:12  <andythenorth> Jolteon: yes, well I could
15:09:18  <Hirundo> <- like this, I presume
15:09:20  <Rubidium> andythenorth: 'and' it with 0 or 'or' it with -1
15:09:41  <andythenorth> so then all unserviced power stations would close five years after game start
15:09:43  <Jolteon> That reminds me, Hirundo.
15:09:45  <andythenorth> fun isn't it :|
15:09:50  <Jolteon> Theres no such thing as a 'fair' random in coding, is there?
15:09:57  <Jolteon> Apparantly it's always slightly biased, or something.
15:10:09  * Jolteon read that somewhere, forgot where though.
15:10:13  <andythenorth> it's ok, the human sense of random is utterly biased anyway
15:10:26  <Jolteon> true.
15:10:31  <Jolteon> I always go "hmm.. let me think"
15:10:35  <andythenorth> and to complicate matters, math random expects some kind of even distribution....but...
15:10:35  <Jolteon> and I nearly always say 3 and 7.
15:10:57  <andythenorth> lots of complex systems aren't even, they seem to fit better to power laws
15:11:24  <andythenorth> jolten: do some maths
15:11:26  <andythenorth> any maths
15:11:55  <andythenorth> Jolteon: 3+11?
15:12:02  <Rubidium> andythenorth: 20
15:12:10  <andythenorth> 20 - 2?
15:12:10  <Jolteon> er
15:12:11  <Jolteon> 14
15:12:14  <Jolteon> 18
15:12:19  <davis> :D
15:12:20  <andythenorth> name a vegetable...
15:12:23  <Rubidium> andythenorth: 10
15:12:24  <Jolteon> Carrot
15:12:26  <andythenorth> done
15:12:36  <andythenorth> most english speaking people do the same thing
15:12:40  <Jolteon> I was going to say a tomato
15:12:43  <Jolteon> but no one is quite sure what they are.
15:12:49  <andythenorth> it's a true urban myth
15:12:53  * andythenorth back to the nfo
15:12:54  <Rubidium> oh, egg plant! :)
15:14:46  <andythenorth> hmm.  the maths->carrot thing might be bollocks
15:14:46  <andythenorth>
15:15:12  <Jolteon> ...what
15:15:16  <Jolteon> I was /meant/ to say carrot?
15:15:27  <andythenorth> most people do
15:15:31  <andythenorth> allegedly
15:15:46  <Rubidium> andythenorth: where's the proof for that?
15:15:57  <andythenorth> urban myth
15:16:06  <Jolteon> andythenorth: Surely people say what they are exposed to the most.
15:16:26  <Jolteon> In my case it's (unfortunatly) carrots.
15:16:26  <andythenorth> Jolteon: that appears to be what cognitive science thinks too
15:16:36  <Jolteon> I mean, I wouldn't say what a Nigerian woman would sauy.
15:16:43  <Jolteon> She'd probably just reply with "..a what"
15:16:45  <andythenorth> Would we like to see construction date in the industry window?
15:17:20  <Rubidium> andythenorth: but if it's urban myth, someone must have written about it
15:17:32  <andythenorth> Rubidium:
15:17:53  *** Pikka [] has quit []
15:17:56  <andythenorth> oh balls
15:18:02  <andythenorth> I was writing him a question
15:18:08  <dih> src/smallmap_gui.cpp: In member function ‘void SmallMapWindow::SetZoomLevel(SmallMapWindow::ZoomLevelChange, const Point*)’:
15:18:11  <dih> src/smallmap_gui.cpp:641: warning: ‘tile$y’ may be used uninitialized in this function
15:18:14  <dih> src/smallmap_gui.cpp:641: warning: ‘tile$x’ may be used uninitialized in this function
15:18:38  <Rubidium> dih: don't use Apple's compiler... it gives false warnings!
15:18:47  <dih> i am not
15:19:01  <dih> Target: i486-linux-gnu
15:19:01  <dih> Configured with: ../src/configure -v --enable-languages=c,c++,fortran,objc,obj-c++,treelang --prefix=/usr --enable-shared --with-system-zlib --libexecdir=/usr/lib --without-included-gettext --enable-threads=posix --enable-nls --program-suffix=-4.1 --enable-__cxa_atexit --enable-clocale=gnu --enable-libstdcxx-debug --enable-mpfr --with-tune=i686 --enable-checking=release i486-linux-gnu
15:19:07  <dih> Thread model: posix
15:19:09  <dih> gcc version 4.1.2 20061115 (prerelease) (Debian 4.1.1-21)
15:19:31  <peter1138> --enable-as-many-options-as-possible?
15:19:41  <Jolteon> lol
15:19:44  <dih> ^^
15:19:57  <TrueBrain> a i486 compiler, tuned for i686
15:19:58  <andythenorth> @seen FooBar
15:19:58  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: I have not seen FooBar.
15:19:59  <TrueBrain> sensible ...
15:20:25  <Rubidium> dih: read the readme; it says 4.1 gives bogus compiler warnings! :)
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16:04:54  <andythenorth> meh
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16:07:21  <andythenorth> oh fuckadoodle, excuse my swearing
16:08:13  <davis> you are excused
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16:09:07  * andythenorth reverts to stop the game blowing up really unhelpfully
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16:18:26  <Fast2> Hello
16:20:41  <Wizzleby> does OpenMSX have an earliest version of openttd supported?
16:22:51  <blathijs> Wizzleby: I think it needs 1.0
16:23:17  <Wizzleby> blathijs: ok, thanks
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16:23:31  <blathijs> Wizzleby: But you can probably get away with earlier versions if you rename the midi files like the original ones
16:24:13  * Wizzleby nods, "Mostly I'm just interested in making sure that when I've packaged it, it has sane dependencies listed"
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16:25:43  * andythenorth ponders
16:26:24  <andythenorth> consistency versus variety: which do we prefer?
16:29:42  <Rubidium> both!
16:30:12  <andythenorth> yup
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16:30:34  <andythenorth> Oblique Strategies: "A line has two sides"
16:35:34  <blathijs> Wizzleby: Packaged for what?
16:35:47  <Rubidium> blathijs: gentoo?
16:36:45  <Wizzleby> Aye, gentoo
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17:20:48  <TT1a1a1> guys, ive got a tiny bus station in the middle of a city that i really want to extend by the local authority are refusing to let me remove part of the road
17:20:52  <TT1a1a1> is there a workaround?
17:21:04  <TT1a1a1> rating is outstanding
17:23:09  <Rubidium> 1) build a drive through bus stop?
17:23:44  <Rubidium> 2) open the cheat window and enable the magic bulldozer (but remember to disable it again because if enabled everything gets the magic bulldozer, i.e. towns removing industries and such)
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17:38:29  <TT1a1a1> thanks
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17:43:47  <Belugas> 3) plant an awfull lot of tres in the city
17:44:11  <Alberth> and around it :)
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17:46:33  <andythenorth> hi hi industry fans
17:46:37  <Rubidium> Belugas: if your rating is outstanding planting trees doesn't help
17:47:20  <Belugas> ho... shoo... right...
17:47:33  <Belugas> TrueBrain, yuo were soooooo right..... look at me now....
17:47:48  <andythenorth> Brewery: 1 grain = 1 output; 1 fruit = 1 output; 1 grain & 1 fruit = 2 output?
17:48:00  <andythenorth> alternatively 1 grain & 1 fruit = 3 output or 4 output
17:48:28  <andythenorth> the maths is a bit off - my point is, these cargos shouldn't combine in any way to make 'more'?
17:49:11  <TrueBrain> Belugas: and this is only the start ;)
17:49:13  <TrueBrain> it will get worse :)
17:49:29  <Belugas> hehehe
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18:22:39  <Wolf01> hello :D
18:23:01  *** TT1a1a1 [] has quit [Quit: He who asks a question may be a fool for five minutes, but he who never asks a question remains a fool forever]
18:25:54  <blathijs> And he who asks a question and then quits from IRC within five minutes is just an idiot
18:27:05  <Terkhen> until the next question :)
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18:27:40  <Rubidium> s/within five minutes/before someone typed the answer/
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18:33:41  * andythenorth five is the answer
18:33:48  <andythenorth> but to an entirely different question
18:33:58  <andythenorth> spooky
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18:37:53  <Rubidium> dih:
18:38:29  <dih> sweet :-)
18:38:42  <dih> thank you :-)
18:40:11  <dih> that is awesome :-)
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18:45:49  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: translators * r19466 /trunk/src/lang/ (7 files): (log message trimmed)
18:45:49  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:49  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: czech - 1 changes by TheLamer
18:45:49  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: greek - 4 changes by
18:45:49  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: lithuanian - 3 changes by kiphemyst
18:45:50  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: norwegian_bokmal - 3 changes by mantaray
18:45:50  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: norwegian_nynorsk - 3 changes by mantaray
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18:51:02  <OwenS> Rubidium: Everything gets magic bulldozer? Wow, that explains a lot
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18:55:16  <OwenS> This will explain why I've had a city tear down a neighbour's skyscrapers to build small houses...
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19:01:40  <OwenS> Why does clearing some train track make money, but clearing some road cost money?
19:03:03  <Rubidium> cause steel has resell value?
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19:07:17  <OwenS> Rubidium: That's greater than the cost of restoring the land?
19:07:43  <Rubidium> yes
19:07:46  <FauxFaux> You don't replace the land, it's left blank and returns to grass naturally.
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19:08:38  <OwenS> FauxFaux: I'd say digging out Monorail supports is quite expensive ;-)
19:09:19  <OwenS>  /Maglev/Transrapid
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19:11:55  <andythenorth> OwenS:
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19:12:08  <andythenorth>
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19:15:16  <OwenS> andythenorth: Traditional rails are just steel beams on a wooden mat, with a chipping base. Maglev supports are sunk quite deep into the ground, and are quite comple
19:15:17  <OwenS> x
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19:17:07  <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> closure protection for secondary industries (currently five years).  10 sound better, or 15?  25 is as high as I am prepared to go. <-- what about depending on map size? linear: 1 year * (map_x+map_y-11)? so 1 on 64x64, 3 on 128x128, 5 on 256x256, 11 on 2048x2048? or quadratic: 1 year * (map_x-5)*(map_y-5), makes 1 on 64x64, 4 on 128x128, 8 on 256x256, 36 on 2048x2048?
19:17:39  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I think the map size would be a good refinement.
19:17:50  <andythenorth> I don't want to code it for FIRS 0.1 (plenty of other stuff to do)
19:18:05  <andythenorth> It's prop 13 here:
19:18:18  <andythenorth> Looks complicated for my brain to understand :P
19:18:28  <andythenorth> but I've added it to a ticket on the FIRS tracker
19:20:36  <Eddi|zuHause> well, for the linear version you want the SS part, for the quadratic version the XY part of the variable
19:20:44  <Eddi|zuHause> then do a little bit magic on them
19:22:39  <Eddi|zuHause> they have a builtin offset, that results in the formulas: SS+1 for linear, and (X+1)*(Y+1) for quadratic
19:22:55  <Eddi|zuHause> or X*Y+SS+1
19:23:46  <andythenorth> ok so now I have charts from Roujin
19:23:46  <andythenorth>
19:23:56  <andythenorth> we are looking at the Power Station
19:24:05  <andythenorth> what is the chart telling me?
19:25:55  <Eddi|zuHause> "Request timed out"?
19:26:51  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't get anything...
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19:28:54  <Eddi|zuHause> you can modify the quadratic variant to X*Y+1, results in: 1 on 64x64, 2 on 128x128, 5 on 256x256, 26 on 2048x2048
19:29:38  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I've stuck that on the FIRS tracker as well
19:29:49  <andythenorth> I'm not going to start on it at the moment :)
19:30:27  <Noldo> :/ the spreadsheet is timeouting
19:30:35  <Eddi|zuHause> if you give me the code segment that calculates the protection period, i could try to write something up
19:31:09  <andythenorth> It would be a single varaction 2 that writes to a register
19:31:30  <andythenorth> nicely self contained :)
19:31:42  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, but it's easier for me if i already have the writing to register part :)
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19:31:45  <Noldo> only the graphs are
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19:36:24  <andythenorth> 1in 4?
19:36:24  <andythenorth>   81 18 00  03 //randomise
19:36:59  <andythenorth> nvm
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19:43:45  <__ln__>
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19:57:36  <andythenorth> do we like 'conflicting industry types'?
19:57:50  <andythenorth> i.e. can't build some industry types near certain other industry types?
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19:58:46  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe, but how useful is that?
19:59:20  <Eddi|zuHause> i mean there's no reason why a steel mill can't be next to an oil refinery
20:00:05  <Terkhen> andythenorth: I don't mind running further tests, 20 years is fine?
20:00:17  <andythenorth> Terkhen: might as well :)
20:00:59  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: coal mine next to steel mill? (I am playing devil's advocate, I don't personally like 'conflicting types')
20:01:28  <Terkhen> okay
20:02:25  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: honestly, i can't see a reason for that either
20:03:03  <andythenorth> so I have one vote against 'conflicting types'.  Anyone else got an opinion? :)
20:03:14  <Terkhen> I don't like conflicting types either, I can't think of a case in FIRS where it would be useful
20:03:38  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: yexo * r19467 /trunk/src/misc/ (blob.hpp str.hpp):
20:03:38  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: -Codechange: Use uint and byte direct instead of declaring internal types (skidd13)
20:03:38  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: -Codechange: remove now unneeded asserts
20:03:38  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: -Codechange: Set CBlobBaseSimple as absolute base class of CBlobT
20:04:37  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: yexo * r19468 /trunk/src/misc/blob.hpp: -Codechange: make ptr_u union in Blob anonymous (skidd13)
20:06:00  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: yexo * r19469 /trunk/src/misc/ (blob.hpp str.hpp): -Codechange: remove unused functions from Blob (skidd13)
20:06:44  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: yexo * r19470 /trunk/src/misc/ (blob.hpp dbg_helpers.cpp): -Codechange: rename blob internals (skidd13)
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20:08:54  <PeterT> where is this skidd13?
20:08:54  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: yexo * r19471 /trunk/src/misc/ (blob.hpp str.hpp): -Codechange: rename ByteBlob methods to fit common style (skidd13)
20:10:13  <Yexo> FS#3461 / irc
20:10:31  <Eddi|zuHause> afair he was a developer a while ago
20:10:45  <Yexo> correct
20:13:29  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: yexo * r19472 /trunk/src/misc/blob.hpp: -Codechange: reorder the static members of ByteBlob and add Zero() (skidd13)
20:14:09  <dih> did he not once have commit rights?
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20:14:20  <Rubidium> no
20:15:03  <PeterT> Yexo: does he have a different alias on IRC_
20:15:04  <Rubidium> although that answer depends on how the question is interpreted
20:15:16  <Yexo> PeterT: no
20:15:29  <dih> he used to be on irc
20:15:45  <PeterT> just FS, then
20:15:46  <dih> Rubidium, i thought i (some time back) so commits by him
20:15:52  <Yexo> PeterT: no
20:16:12  <PeterT> am I missing something?
20:16:31  <Yexo> yes, #openttd is not the only irc channel, being on irc does not mean being in #openttd
20:16:32  <dih> PeterT, always
20:17:08  <dih> and dont try to enter the "lions den" ^^
20:18:03  <Yexo> @commit 14557
20:18:03  <DorpsGek> Yexo: Commit by skidd13 :: r14557 trunk/src/string.cpp (2008-11-02 11:41:13 UTC)
20:18:04  <DorpsGek> Yexo: -Codechange: Remove a redundant line of code
20:18:08  <Yexo> dih: ^^
20:18:25  <dih> yes - that
20:18:29  <dih> i knew it existed
20:18:46  <Yexo> hg log -u skidd13 to get a full list
20:18:47  <Rubidium> dih: ¬E(skidd13 did commit) = false
20:19:35  <dih> ok, but he had a user, someone revised his stuff and commited for him?
20:19:54  <Yexo> dih: notice the "¬"
20:20:33  <Yexo> double negations ftw :)
20:20:41  <Rubidium> dih definitely isn't of Vulcan descent
20:22:24  <dih> vulkanette vulgaris :-D
20:24:39  <Rubidium> but temporal logic is fun... especially when it sees common linguistic constructs in the exact opposite
20:27:38  * andythenorth goes on a mission to eliminate conflicting types.  This will be....ummm....we'll se
20:27:40  <andythenorth> e
20:28:41  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: yexo * r19473 /trunk/src/misc/blob.hpp: -Codechange: remove unused variables in the Blob::SmartAlloc code (skidd13)
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20:38:01  <Eddi|zuHause> dih: partly galapagos turtle? :)
20:38:46  <dih> ^^
20:39:27  <dih> an can reach 400 years of age :-P
20:44:36  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: yexo * r19474 /trunk/src/misc/blob.hpp: -Cleanup: remove ByteBlob::Append(T*, num_items)
20:44:36  <andythenorth> ho hum
20:45:15  <andythenorth> I'm getting the '...too close to another industry' message when trying to construct industries
20:45:29  <andythenorth> *every* FIRS industry has action 0 prop 16 set as follows
20:45:29  <andythenorth> 	16 FF FF FF //conflicting industry types (3*byte; ID+80h; FF to disable)
20:48:22  <andythenorth> baffling
20:48:59  <andythenorth> hmmm
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20:57:37  <andythenorth> "Industries of the same type can be built close to each other" appears to be broken for secondary industry.
20:57:41  <andythenorth> or I've misunderstood it
20:58:22  <Rubidium> close to eachother as in "in the same town"
20:58:52  <andythenorth> Wouldn't that be "Allow multiple similar industries per town"
20:58:53  <andythenorth> ?
20:59:47  <Rubidium> hmm, there are two settings?
21:00:00  <Rubidium> then I don't know without looking at the source
21:00:06  <Rubidium> and can't be bothered to do that right now
21:00:15  <Rubidium> dinner time (little late though)
21:00:18  <andythenorth> :)
21:00:28  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: terkhen * r19475 /trunk/src/build_vehicle_gui.cpp: -Cleanup: Remove an unneeded for when drawing detail panels.
21:04:47  <andythenorth> I haven't read the source, but I think the game prevents secondary industries being built within about 20 tiles of each other *if* they have at least one accepted cargo the same
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21:18:14  <Nite_Owl> Hello all
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21:18:43  <Yexo> andythenorth: a secondary industry cannot be build close (< 14 tiles) to another industry if both industries if the first cargotype both industry accept is the same and one of "same industry close to eachother" and "multiple industries per town" is off
21:23:59  <Eddi|zuHause> what constitutes a "secondary" industry in this case?
21:24:08  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: yexo * r19476 /trunk/src/industry_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: simplify the 'is conflicting industry nearby' check a bit
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21:25:12  <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause: any industry that has the INDUSTRYLIFE_EXTRACTIVE or INDUSTRYLIFE_ORGANIC bits set but not the INDUSTRYBEH_CUT_TREES bit
21:26:07  <Eddi|zuHause> that doesn't seem to make a lot of sense...
21:26:44  <Yexo> Lumber mills are extractive/organic, but can always be built like a non-raw industry  <- there is that comment in the openttd code
21:28:23  <andythenorth> oh poop
21:28:32  <andythenorth> That explains my problem then
21:28:49  <andythenorth> I have quite a lot of secondary industries with overlapping cargo acceptance
21:30:01  <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: is the check you said there inverse? because in my world, "extractive" and "organic" industries are primary...
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21:30:53  <andythenorth> I suppose all FIRS industries could be primary
21:31:17  <andythenorth> seems a bit weird
21:31:27  <andythenorth> but might work
21:31:57  <andythenorth> what might go wrong?
21:32:13  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: AIs misinterpreting stuff?
21:32:46  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but why bother, if simply disabling the settings helps?
21:32:56  <andythenorth> it doesn't
21:33:25  <Yexo> <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: is the check you said there inverse? because in my world, "extractive" and "organic" industries are primary... <- sorry, yes
21:33:35  <Yexo> what I said was a descriptino of primary industries
21:34:13  <Yexo> andythenorth: the settin gto build secondary industries but only fund primary industries would fail
21:34:20  <andythenorth> yup
21:34:27  <andythenorth> everything would be prospecting
21:34:49  <Yexo> and I'd expect every primary industry to produce cargo even if it doesn't get any incoming cargo
21:35:00  <Yexo> that's more important for AIs then for humans though
21:35:39  * andythenorth is a teensy bit depressed by how complicated it all is :P
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21:36:39  <andythenorth> is it something we could change?
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21:45:54  <andythenorth> so....the problem is that (a) it's irritating to prevent secondary industries building near each other and (b) the message is unhelpful and will produce a lot of bogus bug reports
21:46:29  <andythenorth> I suppose I could us cb28 for every secondary industry and return a more helpful error text.
21:46:48  <andythenorth> I don't know if cb28 will be over-ridden by the game's built-in check though
21:47:11  <andythenorth> I could delete the secondary industries with same input cargos
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21:49:02  <andythenorth> I wonder what the game's distance check will do if I use cb 14B to set cargos?
21:49:18  <Belugas> pffff....enough for the week...
21:49:21  <Belugas> time to say ....
21:49:23  <Belugas> BYE!
21:49:28  <PeterT> bye Belugas!
21:49:30  <andythenorth> bye!
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21:51:16  <frosch123> 14b is only called on construction, for unconstructed industries (including ais querying industrytype information) there are only the properties
21:52:01  <andythenorth> frosch123: so would 14B run before or after CheckIfFarEnoughFromIndustry
21:52:14  <frosch123> after
21:52:34  <frosch123> 14b is run when the industry is already half placed
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21:53:15  <andythenorth> hmm
21:53:30  <andythenorth> CheckIfFarEnoughFromIndustry looks broken to me
21:53:52  <andythenorth> or at least, massively confusing to players
21:54:46  <frosch123> you need to use cb 28 yourself to simulate cb 14b. if you also need the random bits for it, you have to wait for :p
21:55:17  <andythenorth> frosch123: is it clear what I'm trying to do?
21:55:24  <andythenorth> as that answer confused me :)
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21:56:04  <frosch123> i thought you want to prevent industries accepting/producing similiar cargo to appear next to each other
21:56:28  <andythenorth> no, the inverse :)
21:56:37  <andythenorth> the game already prevents that
21:56:48  <andythenorth> incidentally something smells wrong about CheckIfFarEnoughFromIndustry to
21:56:49  <andythenorth> me
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21:57:42  <andythenorth> what cause _game_mode != GM_EDITOR to be true?
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21:58:25  <Eddi|zuHause> normal game, not scenario editor
21:58:27  <Rubidium> not being in the (scenario) editor?
21:59:05  <andythenorth> so there is no point in checking the other two advanced options in CheckIfFarEnoughFromIndustry
21:59:42  <andythenorth> so in game, this will always be true?
21:59:42  <andythenorth> 				_game_mode != GM_EDITOR || !_settings_game.economy.same_industry_close || !_settings_game.economy.multiple_industry_per_town
22:00:04  <Eddi|zuHause> in the scenario editor, these settings are ignored
22:00:33  <andythenorth> ?
22:01:37  <andythenorth> nope, in the scenario editor, these settings are not ignored
22:02:23  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the line you just pasted says: "in scenario editor, treat these settings as always on"
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22:03:49  <frosch123> yeah, that check looks totally broken :p
22:03:55  <andythenorth> scenario editor is the only place those settings work correctly for secondary industry
22:04:14  <andythenorth> even I can read that code and see the flaw :P
22:04:22  <andythenorth> and I'm a dumbass
22:04:27  <andythenorth> :D
22:05:13  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: apply deMorgan's rule on the line, and it says ¬(in scenario editor && allow industries close && allow industries in town)
22:05:31  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: and the "¬" is the bug :)
22:06:03  <Eddi|zuHause> hm, i can't judge that, depends on the following blocks...
22:07:11  <Eddi|zuHause> i.e. adding ¬ is equivalent to switching then/else blocks
22:07:35  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: umm....just read the real code  :|
22:07:39  <andythenorth> :)
22:08:15  <andythenorth> here
22:08:29  <andythenorth> for your convenience :)
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22:11:27  <frosch123> <- first guess, but i do not really know what those settings are supposed to do
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22:13:51  <andythenorth> frosch123: I just inverted this _game_mode != GM_EDITOR
22:13:59  <andythenorth> to _game_mode == GM_EDITOR
22:14:04  <Eddi|zuHause> you sure that is correct?
22:14:05  <andythenorth> seems to work for me
22:15:37  <andythenorth> no my version is dumb
22:15:50  <andythenorth> breaks the scenario editor :(
22:16:58  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, shouldn't the game mode be the first thing to check?
22:17:08  <andythenorth> The basis of the whole check seems stupid
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22:17:22  <andythenorth> It may have made sense once to check accepted cargo
22:17:38  <andythenorth> But same accepted cargo != same industry type now we have newgrf industry
22:18:01  <andythenorth> The description of the advanced option for the player is at odds with what the code is trying to do
22:18:35  <Eddi|zuHause> it would be right if it said "similar" industries
22:18:48  <andythenorth> Hmm
22:19:03  <andythenorth> Are coal mine and power station similar?
22:19:18  * andythenorth wonders why he never noticed this problem with PBI
22:20:12  <andythenorth> PBI doesn't have this problem
22:20:19  * andythenorth wtfs briefly
22:20:39  <andythenorth> where does cb 28 get called?
22:23:28  <andythenorth> oh
22:24:06  <andythenorth> the game check also only looks at first cargo?!
22:24:07  <andythenorth> indspec->accepts_cargo[0] == i->accepts_cargo[0]
22:24:18  <Yexo> yes :)
22:24:45  <andythenorth> well, dumber has turned up to see his friend dumb in that bit of code then :D
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22:24:47  <frosch123> @commit 1443
22:24:47  <DorpsGek> frosch123: Commit by miham :: r1443 trunk/industry_cmd.c (2005-01-09 14:07:59 UTC)
22:24:48  <DorpsGek> frosch123: Added feature that users are able to place multiple accepting industies nearby in the editor mode if the appropriate patches are set
22:25:06  <frosch123> i don't understand those settings :)
22:25:22  <Rubidium> hmm, Miham wrote patches?
22:25:48  <Eddi|zuHause> that was long before my time...
22:25:53  <andythenorth> looks generally like a turkey to me
22:26:13  <Eddi|zuHause> i joined here around r3300 or r3900 i think
22:26:13  <andythenorth> I thought I knew what those settings did, but turns out I've been wrong for 4 years :)
22:26:16  <frosch123> well, that revision does not add those settings in the first place though
22:27:00  <Eddi|zuHause> it adds the GM_EDITOR check i presume
22:27:24  <andythenorth> hmm
22:27:34  <andythenorth> hmmm
22:27:44  <andythenorth> cb28 seems a little cut off at the kneww
22:27:49  <andythenorth> knee /s :)
22:28:15  <andythenorth> 'grf authors can fully control placement' - except in multiple strange cases where they can't :)
22:30:13  <andythenorth> could CreateNewIndustryHelper be changed so that CheckIfFarEnoughFromIndustry is not used if cb 28 is enabled?
22:30:27  <frosch123> so, those lines were supposed to do something completely different than the comments say (which were added later), and we guessed :p
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22:32:25  <Rubidium> the question here is how much of the industry checking is left to the callback in TTDP
22:34:27  <frosch123> <- right?
22:35:46  <Yexo> frosch123: that is in line with the original commit, but it still feels wrong
22:35:52  <Yexo> shouldn't those settings also work in-game?
22:36:13  <frosch123> they do, but they do something different
22:36:36  <Yexo> ok
22:37:05  <andythenorth> frosch123: what are those settings supposed to do in game?
22:37:15  <frosch123> hmm, but yes. actually multiple_industry_per_town is not needed there
22:37:44  <frosch123> multiple_industry_per_town checks there is only one industry of a type per town. in both editor and in gmae
22:38:01  <frosch123> same_industry_close applies to only raw industries
22:38:34  <frosch123> except with this weird exception that it also applies to secondary industries in editor
22:39:07  <frosch123> but in that case also only for the "accept same cargo"-check, and not for the "conflicting industry types"-check
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22:39:24  <frosch123> and the "accept same cargo"-check only checks the first cargo anyway
22:39:29  * andythenorth wonders what happens if I set first cargo to FF for two industry types
22:39:39  <frosch123> err, maybe we should just trash that check?
22:39:42  <andythenorth> yup
22:39:44  <andythenorth> please
22:39:48  <andythenorth> it makes me sad
22:40:13  <andythenorth> why allow primary industries near each other, but not secondary?
22:40:20  <andythenorth> all seems very weird to me
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22:41:38  <frosch123> primary industries near each other provide lots of cargo. secondary industries near each other generate bug reports about only one industry getting the cargo
22:43:03  <andythenorth> but they are only 14 tiles apart?
22:43:06  <frosch123> same_industry_close also disables checking for conflicting industries, like putting a coalmine next to a coalplant which spoils transporting
22:43:42  <andythenorth> not with bulldozers :)
22:45:05  <frosch123> i remember someone posting a screenshot with a station next to directly neighboured industries, with a train that just loads, moves into the depot and returns the same station for unloading :p
22:45:35  <Eddi|zuHause> is that possible at all?
22:45:37  <frosch123> though iirc that is forbidden elsewhere
22:45:50  <andythenorth> hmm
22:45:56  <andythenorth> how is pikka getting around this problem
22:45:56  <Eddi|zuHause> cargo is not unloaded at the station that it originates from
22:46:36  <Eddi|zuHause> i have seen several people complain that their cargo is not accepted at their oil refinery after a while, and they overlooked an oil well near the unloading station
22:46:45  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: yexo * r19477 /trunk/src/misc/ (blob.hpp str.hpp): -Fix (r1946x): removed a few too functions including the copy constructor
22:47:20  <Eddi|zuHause> that sentence does not parse...
22:48:51  <Yexo> *too many
22:49:14  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: still more useful than virtualbox's messages
22:49:46  <Rubidium> "FE/Qt4: correction" <- kinda typical virtualbox commit message
22:50:06  <Rubidium> "FE/Qt4: fix OSE"
22:50:36  <Rubidium> i.e. it's totally useless to find something particular
22:51:55  <Rubidium> so... lets hope the compile farm runs tomorrow
22:52:32  <Rubidium> r22084 | vboxsync | 2009-08-07 21:30:38 +0200 (Fri, 07 Aug 2009) | 1 line
22:52:32  <Rubidium> Additions/x11/vboxvideo_13: Backported r31434 from vboxvideo_15: Additions/x11 and linux: make the Additions work with Fedora 9/ server 1.5
22:52:48  <Rubidium> that's nice too... backporting a future revision
22:53:14  <Fast2> Good evening.
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22:53:47  <andythenorth> pbi steel mills can be built adjacent to each other
22:54:04  <andythenorth> scrub that
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22:54:45  <Fast2> I have a problem with Version r18053 with CargoDist: TrainA should transport wheat and cattle from the farm to the factory. In exchange, it should take away the goods and deliver them to the farm, so TrainB can bring them to the city.
22:56:24  <Rubidium> have you enabled cargodist for those kinds of cargoes? (is that actually a setting?)
22:56:44  <Rubidium> too bad the cargodist specialist isn't here
22:56:45  * andythenorth ponders
22:56:54  <Fast2> The problem: TrainA takes away the goods he just unloaded because the destination for the goods is not set to the city's station but to "any" station.
22:57:20  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: the setting is called "demand function"
22:57:49  <Rubidium> Fast2: maybe setting "no loading" in the "loading" dropdown does the trick
22:57:53  <Eddi|zuHause> Fast2: it sometimes takes time until the algorithm finds targets for a cargo
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22:58:18  <andythenorth> frosch123 so bug reports about adjacent industries not getting cargo are ok, as long as the industries are placed in the scenario editor?  smell funny to you?
22:58:19  <Yexo> Fast2: maybe it owrks after you force unload one time
22:58:22  <Eddi|zuHause> just dump the "any station" cargo somewhere
22:58:57  <Fast2> Ah, I see.
22:59:20  <Fast2> I'll  try it.
22:59:34  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth/frosch123: in the long run, it would be better if cargo was distributed over all nearby industries...
23:00:35  <Eddi|zuHause> especially when industries can only process limited amount of cargo without setting a stockpile limit, this behaviour really hurt
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23:03:36  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: 'limited' is still quite a lot in reality
23:04:00  <andythenorth> up to 65k per production tick
23:04:04  <Rubidium> especially? All industries are limited
23:05:30  <andythenorth> or do you mean PBI style?
23:07:06  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, i mean if the industry defines "convert at most 300 items per production tick"
23:08:05  <andythenorth> yep
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23:15:46  <Fast2> Hm, the destination is set for a short time but then discarded (no loading + unload only accepted) (old result, I forgot to send...). New result: The goods get often the destination, but sometimes it gets discarded.
23:17:37  <Fast2> *the|their/a
23:18:59  <Fast2> What do you suggest? Increasing the "Linkgraph recalculation interval"?
23:21:25  <andythenorth> grr
23:22:08  <andythenorth> I can't use cb14B to get around this industry check problem
23:22:42  <Yexo> Fast2: you'll probably get more help if you post your savegame in the cargodist topic
23:23:34  <andythenorth> indspec->accepts_cargo[0] == i->accepts_cargo[0] evaluates true when cargo slot is empty  :x
23:23:44  <andythenorth> fair, but annoying
23:24:17  <Yexo> that seems wrong
23:25:24  <andythenorth> I just tested it :)
23:25:52  <Yexo> I know it does, but it shouldn't do that
23:26:36  <andythenorth> it's conceptually a stupid check anyway
23:27:49  <Terkhen> good night
23:27:55  <Rubidium> night Terkhen
23:27:55  <Yexo> night Terkhen
23:28:24  <Rubidium> andythenorth: many things implemented long ago are now, with NewGRFs, considered stupid
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23:29:05  <Wolf01> 'night
23:29:16  *** Wolf01 [] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
23:29:18  <Rubidium> yeah, we'll bury you
23:30:07  <Fast2> Yexo: There?
23:30:15  <Yexo> Fast2: yes
23:30:50  <Fast2> Do you know my password? :D
23:31:33  <andythenorth> Rubidium: I guess we find them one by one :D
23:33:11  <Yexo> <andythenorth> indspec->accepts_cargo[0] == i->accepts_cargo[0] evaluates true when cargo slot is empty  :x  <- in r1 there was a special check for an empty cargo slot
23:34:30  <PeterT> why is trying to load original_dos by default?
23:34:57  <Yexo> why not?
23:35:10  <PeterT> It's on a Windows system
23:35:13  <Yexo> he probably doesn't have any graphics set at all, so the first one encountered is shown in the error message
23:35:17  <PeterT> Does it always load dos by default?
23:35:33  <Yexo> the graphics from the ttd dos version load perfectly fine in openttd on any system
23:35:55  <Yexo> or did you also think the ttd windows graphics didn't work on linux?
23:36:38  <andythenorth> Yexo: r1 as in, r1, the first commit?
23:37:06  <Yexo> yes, but only first in the repository
23:37:19  <Yexo> r1 is an import from r975 from an older svn
23:37:27  <PeterT> I thought DOS graphics had adverse affects on windows
23:37:29  <andythenorth> so that went MIA somewhere?
23:37:37  <Yexo> yep
23:37:38  <andythenorth> or is my test flawed?
23:37:55  <Yexo> no, that check was removed at some point
23:38:03  <PeterT>
23:38:19  <PeterT> Oh, the image isn't there anymore
23:38:41  <Yexo> PeterT: see Rubidium reply in that topic, the rest is talking nonsense
23:39:02  <PeterT> As usual...
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23:40:07  <Rubidium> huh, what are you talking about?
23:40:51  <PeterT> Rubidium: That they are mostly just posts until you come along with the real answer
23:40:52  <PeterT> :-)
23:42:12  <Rubidium> why are those new keyboard so much more fragile than the good old keyboard? Makes cleaning them so much trickier :(
23:43:00  <Rubidium> <- that's what I mean with "good old" :)
23:43:18  <Rubidium> with a proper steel construction, weighing half a tonne etc.
23:43:30  <Yexo> this fixes the "does an existing industry accept the same cargo" check
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23:44:02  <Wizzleby> Rubidium: somewhere I recall seeing a modern keyboard built like those
23:44:16  <Yexo> but I'm not sure how much sense that whole check makes
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23:44:34  <Rubidium> Wizzleby: yeah, those were like 150 dollar or so
23:45:08  <PeterT> Rubidium: What does a "new" one look like?
23:45:28  <Wizzleby> Rubidium: yeah, which is sadly not a shocking price for 'high end' keyboards these days. But still, I'd rather be getting metal construction for 0 than... a plastic piece of crap for the same price
23:46:26  <Wizzleby> PeterT: IIRC, it looked a  lot like the picture Rubidium posted, only it was black, had a USB interface
23:46:57  <PeterT> Oh right, I wouldn't consider those hard to clean
23:47:52  <Wizzleby> I think he meant the plastic kind are hard to clean
23:48:49  <Rubidium> yeah... removing the keys is tricky
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23:49:24  <Rubidium> trying to use a vacuum cleaner ends up with missing keys and/or keys broken from their connecting stuff (same as when you try to remove them manually)
23:50:02  <Rubidium> the old ones you could just, even with brute force although usually not needed, remove the keys and throw them in some (near) boiling water
23:51:24  <Rubidium> bah... the paint on my mouse is almost gone on parts (like on my previous laptop)
23:51:47  <PeterT> that usually happens to me with my keys
23:51:53  <Rubidium> but then, using the mouse for 6 years... that's pretty good I'd say
23:52:31  <OwenS> Rubidium: My mouse is ab out ~11 years old :p
23:52:35  <Rubidium> now... logitech, why don't you have an option to "opt out" wireless mice in the search?
23:53:13  <OwenS> I'd guess about 10... in any case, the Microsoft logo has almost gone, and it's turned rather yellow :p
23:53:58  <OwenS> On the plus side, it still works perfectly*
23:54:14  <OwenS> *Except for when the sensor gets covered in cat fur. Which affects any optical mouse
23:55:40  <Fast2>
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23:56:24  <Rubidium> OwenS: did they have optical mice back then?
23:56:43  <OwenS> Rubidium: It's an original Wheel Mouse Optical. I.E, very early
23:59:13  <fjb> Microsoft's optical mice are great. They should stick to producing mice.
23:59:41  <Rubidium> fjb: I want to do the marketing for they keyboards :)

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