Log for #openttd on 24th March 2010:
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01:08:36  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: just for reference: "tram station graphics ought to be improved to fit" <- is a difficult task to do right as long as road stations have no newgrf support. you can only change the generic graphics for all truck/cargo-tram stations
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07:28:59  <Terkhen> good morning
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09:07:16  <Rubidium> DaleStan: could/have you take(n) a look at my fixes for grfcodec ( yet? Is there some (bug) tracker for GRFCodec/NFOrenum?
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09:43:56  <dih> Yexo, ping ;-)
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09:44:22  <Yexo> pong
09:44:27  <Rubidium> pang!
09:44:28  <dih> \o/
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09:49:09  <TrueBrain> now my balloon is no more :(
09:50:06  <Rubidium> bye bye He?
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09:50:17  <Rubidium> no more funny noises
09:51:57  <TrueBrain> Rubidium: your conclusions about the email are right indeed
09:51:59  <TrueBrain> oh well, was worth a try
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11:12:00  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: yexo * r19511 /trunk/src/console.cpp: -Codechange: use a template for IConsoleAddSorted
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11:20:42  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: yexo * r19512 /trunk/src/console.cpp: -Fix (r19511): using the 'alias' console command it's possible to create a duplicate alias name
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11:42:45  <Noldo> Yexo: which one did it use if there were 2
11:43:06  <Yexo> first one, why?
11:43:33  <Yexo> the problem only existed for 10 minutes
11:43:38  <Noldo> :)
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11:47:43  <andythenorth>  morning
11:57:51  <fjb> Moin andythenorth
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12:03:30  * andythenorth just woke up
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12:10:55  <peter1138> hmm, okay, so how do i run a process as a different user on start up? :s
12:11:09  <peter1138> i used su in an initscript, and it works if i start it manually, but not on bootup :s
12:11:53  <peter1138> runlevel is 2, symlink /etc/rc2.d/S90service -> ../init.d/service
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12:12:26  <KenjiE20> I used to use slackware's rc.local to put "sudo -u ..." lines in
12:12:45  <Noldo> what happens at bootup?
12:12:46  <KenjiE20> cron's @reboot flag could be worth a go
12:14:54  <peter1138> i don't see messages from it at all :s
12:18:15  <peter1138> hmm, auth.log shows the successful su on startup :s
12:19:08  <KenjiE20> maybe the program needs the environ vars set?
12:19:15  <peter1138> mmm, perhaps so
12:21:26  <KenjiE20> I have an "ps -C <exec_name> 1> /dev/null || { <exec_cmd> & }" line in my cron, for checking if something's running and starting it up
12:22:02  <Rubidium> especially PATH :)
12:22:58  <KenjiE20> a line "@reboot <exec_cmd>" should be sufficient though
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12:25:08  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: cargo trams are 'go'.  I'll see how far I can get with them today
12:28:05  <andythenorth> do 1/8 long articulated road vehicles now work? There used to be stern warnings about them causing fail
12:35:38  <jordi> tada!
12:35:49  <jordi> openttd is now a first class citizen in Debian. Hooray!
12:36:49  <Rubidium> yay... :)
12:37:03  <Rubidium> now it's Ubuntu slapping time!
12:37:14  <Rubidium> or more something for in 180 hours
12:37:22  <jordi> (for those wondering, all the dependencies for free graphics are now in the "free" archive, and openttd has been moved to the main Debian repository, as it no longer depends on non-free data)
12:37:47  <jordi> Rubidium: I had dinner with a Canonical staff member yesterday
12:37:52  <dih> are they suggestions or dependencies?
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12:38:16  <jordi> dih: grf are recommended, sound (which is unfortunately non-free) is suggested
12:38:17  <Rubidium> opengfx is in between, opensfx is a suggestion
12:38:19  <jordi> no strong deps
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12:38:57  * andythenorth wonders if cb36 is still unhelpful for RVs....
12:39:13  <andythenorth> last time I tried it wasn't called on build
12:39:30  <jordi> ie, if anyone wants to use the original data, they still can, without having to install opengfx
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12:40:02  <Rubidium> jordi: there was another solution, though quite a bit more elaborate
12:40:18  <peter1138> oh no, no canadian stuff in bananas
12:40:29  <jordi> re canonical, I told him openttd should be a canidadate for inclusion so late given it's a 1.0 release, network game, and it's suddenly free
12:40:35  <jordi> Rubidium: mm?
12:40:49  * andythenorth is excited about playing a canadian game
12:40:52  <jordi> it happened for some games before, even in Debian which has very strict freeze rules
12:41:35  <Rubidium> jordi: opengfx provides openttd-graphics, openttd-original-graphics provides openttd-graphics, depend on openttd-graphics which defaults to opengfx
12:41:53  <Rubidium> as I said, quite a bit more elaborate
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12:42:26  <jordi> Rubidium: but then people need to create a dummy openttd-original-graphics package
12:42:29  <jordi> using equivs or whatever
12:43:02  <jordi> but I agree that's best, I thought of doing that too (I did that for freeciv years ago)
12:43:08  <Rubidium> jordi: well, I would put openttd[dw].grf and orig_*.ob? in that openttd-original-graphics package (and put that in contrib)
12:43:47  <jordi> in non-free you mean?
12:44:05  <jordi> except you most probably can't distribute those Microprose files via ftp.d.o?
12:44:16  <Ammler> well, recommended means, it will be installed with openttd like require, but you can deinstall it again without dependency check.
12:44:28  <Ammler> conflict*
12:44:32  <jordi> what Ammler said
12:44:39  <Rubidium> jordi: no, it's only the wrapper files of OpenTTD + the extra graphics needed for OpenTTD needed to use the original graphics files
12:44:40  <jordi> package managers now instlal recommends by default
12:45:08  <jordi> Rubidium: I'll leave that up to blathijs ;)
12:45:15  <jordi> I think it's a good idea though
12:45:17  <Rubidium> i.e. you still need to copy the Microprose files from
12:45:26  <peter1138> your cd
12:45:39  <Noldo> :)
12:46:02  <jordi> am I on crack, or is my tt copy on floppy?
12:46:04  <Rubidium> oh, I would've said Chris' development system :)
12:46:07  <jordi> I might not be remembering correctly
12:46:20  <Rubidium> maybe a demo?
12:46:26  <jordi> no I had the full thing
12:46:49  <jordi> i guess I have a cd then
12:46:59  <jordi> I've used it once in 10 years or so
12:46:59  <Ammler> tto was on floppy :-)
12:47:07  <KenjiE20> ^
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12:48:55  <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> do 1/8 long articulated road vehicles now work? There used to be stern warnings about them causing fail <- the warning applies to TTDPatch only
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12:49:32  <planetmaker> <peter1138> oh no, no canadian stuff in bananas <-- you're not really surprised, are you? :-)
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12:51:11  <Ammler> because they use modified original sprites?
12:51:15  <Rubidium> "These sets are no longer restricted, therefore may not work with all game releases/versions." <- right... hardcoding it to not work in specific versions made it work?
12:52:10  <Rubidium> "Changes to these sets are not permitted." <- except to make them compatible (German law, right?)
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12:52:40  <Ammler> well, you still can't distribute the change...
12:53:00  <Yexo> can they even (legally) forbid changing them for personal use?
12:53:09  <planetmaker> AFAIK no.
12:53:37  <Rubidium> Yexo: they can tell you not to do change it for personal use, but they can't enforce it whatsoever
12:53:49  <Stuffi> hey
12:54:15  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: i'm fairly there's a similar paragraph about "making compatible" in american and other law...
12:54:15  <Stuffi> can someone help me with some problem in saveload.cpp?
12:54:19  <Eddi|zuHause> +certain
12:54:37  <planetmaker> Stuffi, no, unless we know the problem. Meta-questions suck
12:54:52  <Rubidium> nevertheless, there's nothing new in those released things... just two year old stuff that has been removed from the forum and then rereleased as stable because no bug reports have been filed...
12:55:09  <planetmaker> hehe @ Rubidium :-) Very true
12:55:42  <Ammler> the trainset is mainly the version from our pack
12:55:57  <Rubidium> so it's basically a very big "screw you, don't whine" thread
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12:58:01  <Rubidium> ah well, he's probably still extremely pissed that we didn't implement his requested feature straight away (after TTDP has not shown a sign of implementing it either)
12:58:43  <planetmaker> "his feature"? Station vars? Or something else?
12:59:01  <Rubidium> yeah, something stationy
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13:00:11  <Stuffi> ok.. :) i modify the map_type.h to get a bigger map size, if i want to save the scenario i got an error "saveload.cpp Line: 506 Expression length<1(<<28)" what  is the meaning of this error an how can i solve this problem?
13:00:18  <jordi> Rubidium: I also talked to blathijs about letting rc3 go in debian testing
13:00:32  <jordi> being the last rc, I think it's ok for it to get wider testing
13:00:43  <Rubidium> jordi: it won't make it unless it gets pushed
13:01:36  <Rubidium> given that, closing the RC bug is probably fine too. Especially because of the sounds of freezing testing in May.
13:02:52  <Rubidium> Stuffi: now enormously big did you make the map?
13:03:38  <Rubidium> Stuffi: more than 8192x8192 I reckon, right?
13:03:45  <Stuffi> yes
13:04:00  <Stuffi> the map size is 16384 * 8192
13:04:27  <Rubidium> do you expect that to be anything near playable?
13:04:41  <Stuffi> it's playable
13:04:52  <Ammler> Stuffi: maybe you should read the big map thread...
13:04:56  <Eddi|zuHause> just means you didn't hit the bugs yet
13:05:12  <Rubidium> or didn't build much infrastructure
13:05:32  <Eddi|zuHause> or didn't use ECS :)
13:06:06  <Eddi|zuHause> i never managed to fill a 2kx2k map...
13:06:34  <Eddi|zuHause> i half-filled a 2kx1k map (along the long side)
13:06:43  <Stuffi> 20000 automatic generated cities and industries bigger then 100000
13:06:44  <planetmaker> Maps become unplayable at the later stages, if they exceed 1 million tiles roughly
13:07:04  <Stuffi> with the ecs extentions
13:07:26  <Stuffi> we only test it for 2-3 hours
13:07:54  <Ammler> :-o MP mode?
13:08:01  <Stuffi> yes
13:08:06  <Eddi|zuHause> over LAN, i presume
13:08:13  <planetmaker> :-)
13:08:14  <Stuffi> yes over lan
13:09:00  <Eddi|zuHause> actually, over internet is not much more difficult, if you have enough patience for transferring the initial savegame
13:09:10  <planetmaker> Totally unrelated, but worth a note: I consider it nice, that bananas allows to update an newgrf entry with a newgrf with another GRFID :-)
13:09:28  <planetmaker> I thought I should mention that. And I mean no irony
13:10:27  <Ammler> on the other side, it does make sense to use a new entry
13:10:38  <Ammler> new file name
13:10:40  <planetmaker> hm, do you think so?
13:11:02  <Eddi|zuHause> no, i don't think so
13:11:03  <Ammler> well, it depends
13:11:06  <Yexo> say ISR 0.8 was updated to 0.9, but the new version was incompatible
13:11:18  <Yexo> then updating the old entry with a new grf with another grfid would be nice
13:11:18  <planetmaker> It's being used anyway as the version is in the filename
13:11:39  <planetmaker> Yexo, yes :-) exactly.
13:11:43  <Eddi|zuHause> the GRF-ID-Convention says the last byte should be the version number
13:11:57  <Rubidium> Stuffi: but to come to your problem... you're in bad luck. You need to rewrite quite a lot of the savegame format to support chunks bigger than 16 MB
13:12:04  <Eddi|zuHause> so naturally that should be changed when releasing an incompatible version
13:12:08  <Ammler> ah indeed
13:12:14  <Ammler> version is in filename...
13:12:24  <Ammler> nah, it isn't
13:12:27  <Rubidium> Stuffi: RIFF chunks that is
13:12:45  <Ammler> just in the tar/directory, afaik
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13:13:25  <Eddi|zuHause> Stuffi: so basically split up the map array into _m1, _m2, etc. and save them individually
13:13:45  <planetmaker> Ammler, my content-download has all tars versioned.
13:13:49  <Stuffi> ok and how i can fetch than together?
13:13:57  <Ammler> planetmaker: do untar a grf
13:14:02  <planetmaker> TaI_UK_Houses.0.1.tar
13:14:02  <planetmaker> TaI_UK_Houses.0.2.tar
13:14:03  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: that happens already
13:14:11  <planetmaker> Ammler, content download doesn't untar them...
13:14:20  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: ah, then he's basically screwed :)
13:14:27  <Ammler> but openttd does read the content in the tar
13:14:42  <Ammler> but nevermind, it works as I had in mind.
13:15:07  <Ammler> it uses the filename you used on upload.
13:15:11  <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: basically the filename is completely irrelevant
13:15:19  <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: newgrf presets?
13:15:41  <Ammler> or generally cfg...
13:16:07  <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: if it uses bananas grfs, those contain the tar name
13:17:15  <Ammler> yep, but the filename matters, afaik...
13:17:54  <Ammler> if you have something-12x.tar/my.grf in the cfg
13:18:07  <Ammler> it would also use soemthingelse.tar/my.grf
13:18:23  <planetmaker> dbg: [grf] LoadNewGRFFile: Reading NewGRF-file 'swisstownnames.1.1/swisstowns.grf'
13:18:23  <planetmaker>  <-- that's what it uses. Thus the tar name is part of the path
13:19:02  <Ammler> Hmm, I would need to test, I thought, in past, the path didn't matter...
13:19:25  <planetmaker> well... for pre-sets it might not save it. But for savegames you also know the md5, so...
13:19:38  <Ammler> oh, that is something else...
13:20:00  <planetmaker> Yes... presets might indeed take the wrong version, I guess... Dunno, haven't tried it in that respect.
13:20:03  <Ammler> this is just for "compatibilty mode" :-)
13:20:24  <planetmaker> I still think grfs need a version byte which still allows them to be considered compatible
13:20:38  <planetmaker> while the grfID change marks them as incompatible
13:20:48  <planetmaker> ah, make it a version word :-)
13:21:05  <Ammler> well, anyway it would be nice
13:21:52  <planetmaker> it would throw more responsibility at the grf authors' feet - and add a new way to screw the system - but that is now without versions done anyway
13:22:11  <planetmaker> (just thinking of ISR)
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13:23:31  <Eddi|zuHause> openttd could simply try to sort the "candidate files" by date and pick the latest...
13:24:01  <Ammler> indeed, instead of randomly
13:27:06  * Rubidium silently (except this brief statement) awaits the properly tested patch to implement that
13:28:33  <Ammler> :-)
13:28:54  <Ammler> no easy way to read file date?
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13:31:22  <planetmaker> Ammler, for i in `ls *.tar *.grf`; do touch ; done
13:31:28  <planetmaker> s//$i/
13:31:42  * peter1138 wonders if lenny's pulseaudio will be fixed
13:31:46  <planetmaker> and then?
13:31:54  <Ammler> planetmaker: something for openttd :-P
13:32:03  <Noldo> peter1138: propably not
13:32:38  <planetmaker> Ammler, but a common thing on, say, a newly installed system, if you copy stuff from your old partition to the new.
13:32:45  <Yexo> planetmaker: why not simply "touch *.tar *.grf" ?
13:33:09  <planetmaker> Yexo, why easy, if you can do it complicated? Doh... :-)
13:33:12  <Ammler> planetmaker: of course, but at least new grfs are new
13:33:58  <Belugas> hello
13:33:58  <andythenorth> are trailing vehicles in an articulated RV still limited to ID < 128?
13:34:00  <Rubidium> planetmaker: but don't tars have dates in them?
13:34:04  <Ammler> it isn't perfect solution, but it is better than randomly chose the grf
13:34:07  <Rubidium> Ammler: yep
13:34:31  <planetmaker> Rubidium, depends upon the tar parameters. Most probably they do unless told to set them to the tar date.
13:34:32  <Rubidium> oh shoot, that isn't "silently"
13:34:54  <planetmaker> :-)
13:35:04  <Ammler> planetmaker: again, tars don't matter
13:35:18  <planetmaker> Ammler, then please rm -rf **/*.tar ;-)
13:35:36  <Rubidium> even then, what happens if someone accidentally set the time of a newgrf in the future?
13:36:05  <planetmaker> That doesn't matter for sorting. It's just "the latest"
13:36:25  <Ammler> Rubidium: what happens, if someone accidentially set the new grf version feature a value below last release?
13:36:44  <Rubidium> anyhow, you need to get the file's date in some sort of unified/default-ish format as I doubt the values returned by Windows, Linux and tars are the same
13:37:35  <planetmaker> yeah
13:37:40  <Rubidium> Ammler: that's a single point of failure, with wrong timestamps there are several POFs
13:37:56  <__ln__>
13:39:56  <peter1138> __ln__, English only.
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13:45:44  <__ln__> peter1138: hard for me to become an englishman at this age.
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13:49:15  <Belugas> better late then nevar
13:49:30  <Belugas> that's what my boss would say today...
13:49:31  <Belugas> whatever
13:50:06  <Rubidium> no, "the late Belugas" is not better
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13:50:28  <Rubidium> well, if you were "the late Belugas" ofcourse
13:50:36  <Belugas> ;)
13:51:03  <__ln__> peter1138: besides, surely you know that English has a lot of loan words from old norwegian.
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13:52:44  <Eddi|zuHause> <planetmaker> Ammler, but a common thing on, say, a newly installed system, if you copy stuff from your old partition to the new. <-- many ways of copying preserve the dates (cp -p)
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13:54:25  <Eddi|zuHause> in fact, cp is the only thing i encountered that doesn't by default...
13:54:29  <Ammler> I didn't mean using the date instead of a newgrf feature, but instead randomly choseing..
14:02:03  <peter1138> meh, where's the global proxy settings in win2003...
14:02:37  <Rubidium> just install squid in your router and do transparent proxying
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14:09:45  <peter1138> errr
14:09:48  <peter1138> hm
14:11:21  <peter1138> need the explicit proxy setup because there's no DNS either
14:12:35  <Rubidium> oh, too bad... maybe with Windows' policy editor?
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14:13:12  <andythenorth> :o
14:13:20  <andythenorth> eGRVTS horses have no hp set
14:13:35  <Eddi|zuHause> hehe :)
14:15:19  <andythenorth> how many hp should they have?
14:15:29  <Rubidium> less than 1 per horse
14:16:17  <fjb> Round it to 0.
14:18:10  <Rubidium> andythenorth: as always (lovely and possibly incorrect)
14:18:27  * andythenorth wonders if industrial tramways need different graphics
14:18:30  <Rubidium> so, assuming you want them to haul for long stretches, less than 1 hp per horse
14:18:45  <andythenorth> :)
14:21:43  <andythenorth> tramway wagons are going to be *very* small at TTD scale :o
14:23:33  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: "Cargo Trams" or "Industrial Trams" ?
14:23:41  <andythenorth> I favour "Industrial Trams"
14:23:55  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that sounds good
14:24:27  <andythenorth> Adding them to HEQS makes sense to me.  I have enough sets to look after without a new one :)
14:31:38  <planetmaker> hehe :-)
14:34:55  <andythenorth> Industrial Trams currently look strangely like bulldozers :o
14:35:30  <Eddi|zuHause> :)
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14:38:50  <__ln__>
14:40:32  <andythenorth> hmm
14:41:05  <andythenorth> Yexo...this nfo abstraction, not going to appear this side of metaphorical christmas?
14:41:15  <andythenorth> I ask as I am about to convert HEQS to use cpp
14:41:34  <Yexo> not sure when I'll get it working
14:41:41  <Yexo> but don't count on anything in the next few weeks
14:41:44  <Yexo> it's a lot of work
14:42:06  <andythenorth> :)
14:42:19  <andythenorth> I am happy to use the cpp route, just checking something better is not around the corner
14:42:37  <Yexo> no, not yet
14:42:53  <Rubidium> but c++0xff isn't there yet either
14:43:13  <Rubidium> and that's in the pipeline for a very long time already
14:43:24  <__ln__> it's supposed to be C++ 11
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14:52:21  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: when should electric industrial trams appear?  About 1890?
14:52:39  <Eddi|zuHause> definitely not earlier
14:55:09  <andythenorth> first AEG electric loco was 1889
14:55:31  <andythenorth> Siemens SSW founded 1903 for electric loco production
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15:02:10  <Terkhen> hello
15:02:52  <andythenorth> hi Terkhen
15:06:04  * andythenorth grits teeth
15:06:19  <andythenorth> need to reduce HEQS compile errors (so I can see if there are new ones!)
15:14:54  <Ammler> hehe :-P
15:18:21  * andythenorth reduces errors by suppressing them.  always the best way :P
15:18:31  <peter1138> use -1 as your sprite num
15:18:38  <peter1138> saves a bit of hassle
15:19:10  <andythenorth> peter1138: hmm.  I've been slowly renumbering 2000 HEQS sprites to -1 when I make updates :P
15:21:20  * andythenorth has resisted learning regex in 10 years of coding
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15:37:10  <andythenorth> does the game have code to deactivate a vehicle if none of its cargos are avaialble?
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15:54:49  <Eddi|zuHause> that'd make it difficult to make a vehicle carrying no cargo
15:55:48  <andythenorth> I have a couple of vehicles that don't appear in the buy menu if their cargos aren't defined.
15:55:54  <andythenorth> That's actually a preferred behaviour
15:56:14  <andythenorth> I only ask because I just found my action 7 to do the same thing has been broken for months and I hadn't noticed
15:56:25  <andythenorth> Also...Eddi|zuHause
16:01:43  <Eddi|zuHause> great
16:08:50  <andythenorth>
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16:09:33  <Eddi|zuHause> those wagons are 5/8?
16:10:45  <Eddi|zuHause> it should really not exceed 3 tiles...
16:11:03  <andythenorth> those wagons are 7/7
16:11:05  <andythenorth> 7/8 /s
16:11:10  <andythenorth> I'm going to test now with 1/8
16:11:24  <andythenorth> the sprites need drawn...those may look somewhat like a bulldozer ;)
16:11:41  <Eddi|zuHause> that's a minor issue :)
16:14:31  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause:
16:15:59  <Eddi|zuHause> good, now hiding all but 4 wagons :)
16:16:21  <andythenorth> meh
16:16:57  * andythenorth ponders either a long set of range checks or some kind of /4 advanced varact2
16:18:08  <Eddi|zuHause> with the range checks you might be more flexible
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16:18:29  <Eddi|zuHause> especially because you need two sets of hiding schemes
16:18:47  <andythenorth> range checks win
16:19:15  <Eddi|zuHause> in the 2 tile version you need fewer hidden vehicles
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16:42:04  <OwenS> Who is update-apt-xapi and why is he stealing my CPU?
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16:44:18  <Rubidium> something Ubuntu only it seems
16:44:30  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: industrial trams refit all cargos?
16:44:35  <andythenorth> or exclude passengers?
16:44:53  <Eddi|zuHause> all should be fine
16:45:14  <Eddi|zuHause> especially mining lines often also transported workers
16:46:04  <andythenorth> that's what I figure
16:46:14  <andythenorth> so I have to draw some passenger wagons as well :|
16:47:04  <OwenS> andythenorth: Do you ever play OpenTTD or just make GRFs? :p
16:47:13  <andythenorth> mostly just make grfs
16:47:24  <andythenorth> does anyone here actually play the game?
16:47:37  <OwenS> Me. When not doing patch maintainance :p
16:47:50  <andythenorth> I prefer the meta-game of making the game :)
16:48:06  <andythenorth> producing newgrfs is like a puzzle
16:49:53  <planetmaker> <andythenorth> does anyone here actually play the game? <-- we have #openttdcoop for that :-P
16:50:03  <Eddi|zuHause> i would like to play the game, but it always stretches out over several months or even a year. and for that to work i can't use major patches, and there's always one of those around that i really need...
16:50:16  <Eddi|zuHause> last time it was YAPP, now it's cargodist...
16:51:32  <OwenS> planetmaker: Thats true. Dropping into a #coop game requires less effort than creating ones own
16:52:10  <andythenorth> does cb36 have to be enabled explicitly for RVs?
16:52:27  <planetmaker> hehe @ Eddi|zuHause - also one of the reasons I usually play on our PublicServer. Games are short but still get finished due to the high amount of people working there.
16:52:36  <planetmaker> OwenS, exactly :-)
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16:54:48  <OwenS> Hmm... Is there no simple way to iterate through the bits of track on a tile? :s
16:55:44  <Eddi|zuHause> you can iterate through all trackbits and check their presence
16:56:25  <OwenS> Yeah, I'm just looking for a way to iterate through them without doing it the hard way (I.e. bit math :P )
16:56:40  <Rubidium> there's a FOR_ALL_BITS or so
16:56:46  <Rubidium> and a patch on FS
16:57:03  * OwenS checks core/bitmath_func
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16:57:39  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: tram wagons will be effectively 'free'
16:57:58  <andythenorth> due to way refit works, cost 16 tram wagons == cost 4 tram wagons
16:58:16  <OwenS> "#define FIND_FIRST_BIT(x) _ffb_64[(x)]"? Cheats! :p
16:58:50  <Eddi|zuHause> OwenS: lookup table?
16:59:01  <OwenS> Eddi|zuHause: Yes. But only a 6-bit one :p
16:59:34  <Eddi|zuHause> OwenS: balance between complexity and size?
16:59:45  <Eddi|zuHause> OwenS: that's the oldest trick in the book...
16:59:54  <OwenS> Eddi|zuHause: An 8-bit one would only be 256bytes...
17:00:09  <Rubidium> with a whopping 192 unused bytes
17:00:16  <OwenS> ...or, you could use the x86 ffs instruction :p
17:00:21  <OwenS> (on x86)
17:00:44  <OwenS> Or clz on ARM, or clz on MIPS, or indeed the same on may processors
17:01:05  *** Guest60 [kvirc@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:01:17  <OwenS> (BTW, GCC optimizes the ffs function to those)
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17:12:34  * andythenorth loathes the vehicle props 16 1D and 1E :P
17:12:53  <fjb> <andythenorth> does anyone here actually play the game? <- Yes.
17:13:12  <OwenS> <- Is it just me who thinks a person using OpenGFX posting in the TTDPatch forum is probably confused?
17:13:38  <andythenorth> refit masks are really annoying
17:13:43  <peter1138> isn't there a TTDPatch compatible version of OpenGFX?
17:13:57  <OwenS> peter1138: And the probability of someone using it. Particularly someone with 1 post
17:13:59  * andythenorth wonders about some kind of web service for generating refit masks
17:14:28  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you can't do that by hand?
17:14:44  <andythenorth> hate it hate it hate it
17:14:58  <peter1138> refit masks? easy
17:15:01  <andythenorth> meh
17:15:11  <peter1138> just a load of 1s and 0s
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17:15:17  <Eddi|zuHause> you write the bits down in the order of the cargo translation table
17:15:25  <Eddi|zuHause> then you convert 4 bits to nibbles
17:15:31  <Eddi|zuHause> and then shuffle them around
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17:17:11  <Eddi|zuHause> the cargo translation table is "ultra-little-endian" so if you have the bits 1000, that translates to 1, 0001 translates to 8. then you have to flip the nibbles in the byte, to get little endian
17:17:37  <OwenS> wait what?!
17:17:41  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: possibly you want to implement an escape sequence
17:17:58  <OwenS> "ultra little endian"? O_o
17:18:12  <Eddi|zuHause> OwenS: i just made that word up :)
17:18:26  <OwenS> I get the idea and want to know whos idea it was :p
17:18:38  <andythenorth> it's not just the bit shuffling, it's the interaction between 16 and 1D/1E
17:18:43  <andythenorth> brain fuck
17:19:04  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know what those do
17:20:02  <andythenorth>
17:20:18  <Eddi|zuHause> OwenS: basically, "little endian" is on byte level, and "ultra little endian" is on bit level
17:20:21  <andythenorth> train 28, 29 same as rv 1D, 1E
17:20:45  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know if there's an established word for that
17:21:09  <OwenS> Sorry, but I thought the guys who referred to the MSB as bit 0 were mad...
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17:23:45  <jordi> :q
17:23:48  <jordi> yay
17:24:31  <Eddi|zuHause> OwenS: the cargo translation table is an array. and the refit mask's LSB (bit 0) refers to the entry 0 in the array
17:25:03  <OwenS> BTW, inside a command, do I need to check if the player owns the specified tile or has that already been done?
17:25:25  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, no.
17:26:06  <OwenS> OK. *adds to head of todo list*
17:26:06  <Eddi|zuHause> some commands can be done on other people's tiles (like building a road on someone else's rail)
17:26:23  <OwenS> You know... that makes sense :p
17:26:41  <OwenS> It was just that the commands I'd been looking at didn't seem to do it
17:26:48  <Eddi|zuHause> resulting is that tiles may have multiple owners
17:27:05  <Eddi|zuHause> i believe up to 3, currently
17:27:22  <Eddi|zuHause> one owns the road, one owns the tram, one owns the roadstop
17:27:43  <OwenS> ..or one owns road, one tram, one rail
17:28:04  <Eddi|zuHause> no, i think that one has some evil special cases...
17:28:10  <OwenS> Aah
17:28:22  <Eddi|zuHause> you can't have a tram without road on a level crossing
17:29:05  <Rubidium> maybe it'd be (technically) possible with the new railtype stuff
17:29:41  <Eddi|zuHause> that'd be nice
17:30:49  <Eddi|zuHause> suggestion for programmable signals: force the signal red when a vehicle occupies the road crossing
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17:32:12  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, think about realism! ;-)
17:32:47  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: that is realistic
17:33:03  <Eddi|zuHause> there are signals that turn red when the crossing can't be activated
17:33:48  <planetmaker> But how does a crossing know a vehicle is on it. Or how would it work on a busy one?
17:34:54  <planetmaker> I'm curious though: do you have an example of such, Eddi|zuHause ?
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17:36:19  <Eddi|zuHause>
17:37:47  <OwenS> Eddi|zuHause: Hmm... That one would be quite complex
17:37:51  <planetmaker> thanks :-) And I thought I knew all those things on that page meanwhile
17:38:18  <Eddi|zuHause> OwenS: the most evil thing is probably getting a train to stop after it already reserved a path
17:38:27  <OwenS> Eddi|zuHause: Progsigs are block signals
17:38:38  <Eddi|zuHause> OwenS: that makes them almost useless
17:38:54  <Eddi|zuHause> you should seriously consider extending them to path signals
17:39:14  <OwenS> When I add routing restrictions, path signals will get those too. But you can't make a PBS signal red because they don't work like that
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17:40:09  <OwenS> Adding the ability to look at an arbritrary tile requires me adding an out-of-map-array table so the object can find all signals which depend upon it. I suppose it's possible, with a little redesign of the way I was gonna store signal dependencies
17:40:42  <Eddi|zuHause> OwenS: with a path signal, you have one persistent bit free for the reverse signal, you can use that to force a signal red, and check that when trying to reserve a path through the signal
17:41:21  <OwenS> Eddi|zuHause: Hmm, that is a possibility. They may also have the normal signal state bit (I don't know), it's just that the normal signal behaviour doesn't apply to them
17:41:49  <Eddi|zuHause> OwenS: the normal state bit is for display purposes mostly
17:42:21  <OwenS> Aah, I presume with PBS it indicates that a train has reserved a route through the signal
17:42:38  <Eddi|zuHause> no, the reservation bit is somewhere else
17:43:16  <Eddi|zuHause> when a train reserves a path through a signal that concerns him, the reservation bit is set, and the signal state bit is set to green
17:43:45  <Eddi|zuHause> when a train reserves a path through another signal (i.e. a backwards one), the reservation bit is set, but the state bit is set to red
17:43:53  <Eddi|zuHause> (or ignored)
17:44:04  <OwenS> Yeah, I was refering to the displaying there
17:44:37  <OwenS> Using the direction bit is interesting - though it will probably cause lots of bits of code to assert
17:46:19  <Eddi|zuHause> i was once trying to use that as yellow state, but that didn't go anywhere...
17:46:43  <OwenS> I should perhaps change from SIGTYPE_PROGSIG t
17:46:49  <OwenS> (thanks cat...)
17:47:01  <OwenS> to using an extra bit to allow programming any signal
17:48:09  <Eddi|zuHause> have you ever had a look at the "signalex" patch?
17:48:24  <OwenS> Eddi|zuHause: Yes, but it seems dormant
17:50:12  <OwenS> The other thing is that making a patch which depends upon another starts making logistics a bit more complex
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17:53:01  <OwenS> The other thing is it assumes that all objects are simply serializable. ProgSigs programs are not
17:53:20  <Eddi|zuHause> but the SignalEx patch went dormant because there's no feature using it
17:53:30  <OwenS> And its maintainer has disappeared
17:54:03  <Eddi|zuHause> because it isn't going to trunk without a feature
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17:55:47  <OwenS> Also, SignalEx leaks SignalEx's
17:55:53  <OwenS> it seems
17:56:08  <Eddi|zuHause> that i don't know...
17:56:26  <OwenS> It only removes the structure when you remove a signal. Not when you remove a track, or blow up a tile
17:56:59  <Eddi|zuHause> but that's the same problem in your patch, finding all instances where signals are removed
17:57:52  <OwenS> True. I *think* it should be just CmdClearArea, CmdRemoveSignalHelper and CmdRemoveTrackHelper. Hopefully. And at least if I have missed anywhere, I check when saving so I know I have
18:01:10  <OwenS> Also, ProgSigs centralizes much of the infrastructure which would be needed by users of the SignalEx patch anyway
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18:04:41  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: some of these trams are seriously powerful :o
18:04:59  *** frosch [] has joined #openttd
18:06:05  <Eddi|zuHause> OwenS: what i mean, if you don't use the patch directly, you can use it as inspiration on how to get more information into the tile...
18:06:56  <OwenS> Eddi|zuHause: It is actually a patch I am referencing :-)
18:07:41  <frosch> who cut my dsl connection for 5 seconds?
18:07:58  <Eddi|zuHause> who cut your numbers? :p
18:08:14  <andythenorth> who was here asking about 'Disconnecting road vehicles'?
18:08:36  <andythenorth> think he might have the 'allow multiple newgrf engines' option turned off
18:08:58  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it was a newgrf conflict afair
18:09:10  <Eddi|zuHause> those tend to be less when the setting is on :)
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18:11:52  <frosch> no need to highlight me :p
18:13:03  <SpComb> ich essen eine frosch mit broken deutsch
18:13:27  <Rubidium> jah, super :)
18:14:20  * andythenorth is tempted to make industrial trams a bit....good
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18:14:52  * planetmaker somehow doubts that frosch is a "she" ;-)
18:15:16  <Eddi|zuHause> fröschin :)
18:15:22  <planetmaker> lool :-)
18:15:36  <frosch> who knows?
18:15:43  <planetmaker> Probably you ;-)
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18:17:29  <andythenorth> wikipedia has gone away :o
18:17:32  <planetmaker> if not: try to make up with one of each gender. Most probably you're the opposite of that with whom you'll have fun
18:17:35  <frosch> Ammler: i guess the canadian stuff would rather replace all graphics instead of adding ogfx support
18:18:15  <Rubidium> frosch: lies... it would rather not add support whatsoever
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18:21:14  <andythenorth> grrr
18:21:18  <andythenorth> set balancing is tricky
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18:31:15  <SpComb> andythenorth: just give all the vehicles the same stats
18:31:26  <andythenorth> up thanks
18:31:30  <andythenorth> ummm
18:37:57  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: end of the page - proposed electric trams
18:39:54  <Eddi|zuHause> 520t?
18:40:22  <andythenorth> :D
18:40:34  <andythenorth> those big electric trams are quite impressive
18:40:38  <andythenorth>
18:41:50  <andythenorth> also, I made a maths error
18:41:55  <andythenorth> what's the facepalm emoticon?
18:42:30  <Eddi|zuHause> m( <--
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18:42:47  <andythenorth> m(
18:43:00  <andythenorth> 416t for the largest
18:43:14  <andythenorth> at 1020hp it should do well on hills
18:43:17  <PeterT> the "m" part is the hand?
18:43:33  <frosch> what capacity has the stuff in fish?
18:43:42  <andythenorth> frosch: 35t-1080t currently
18:43:49  <andythenorth> I could knock down the hp on these trams....but the rest of HEQS uses realistic hp
18:44:14  <frosch> well, 16 cars is quite a lot
18:45:30  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: translators * r19513 /trunk/src/lang/japanese.txt:
18:45:30  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:30  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: japanese - 3 changes by nex259
18:51:08  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: shouldn't it be 15 cars (+1 engine)?
18:52:26  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe the large version should use 4/8 wagons and 1 to 4 tiles refits
18:55:30  <DJ_Nekkid> yea, thats a neat trick :P
18:58:00  <Eoin> i wish UK Bus Set had taken off
18:59:23  * Alberth prefers buses to stay on the ground
19:01:08  <Terkhen> andythenorth: the low tractive effort of the Fourtrac is intended? I think it is the only remaining vehicle in HEQS that slows down to 1 km / h in slopes when fully loaded (needs 4 sloped tiles, though)
19:01:16  *** |Jeroen| [] has quit [Quit: oO]
19:03:47  <andythenorth> Eoin: uk sets are generally doomed :P
19:03:55  <Eoin> alas
19:04:09  *** Pe1erT [] has joined #openttd
19:04:44  <Eddi|zuHause> what happened to pikkas "hovs" set?
19:06:05  <andythenorth> Terkhen: I'll have a look at the fourtrac
19:06:46  <Terkhen> okay
19:07:26  <andythenorth> Terkhen: is that with the default acceleration settings?
19:08:36  <Belugas> DAMNED!
19:08:47  <Belugas> same code, two devices
19:08:58  <Belugas> different behaviours
19:09:07  <Belugas> good job, VERY GOOD JOB, Verifone :P
19:09:36  <Terkhen> andythenorth: yes, 7% slope steepness
19:09:47  *** ptr [] has quit [Quit: Zzzzzz]
19:19:25  *** heffer [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
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19:22:10  <andythenorth> Terkhen: fixed, I just increased the weight by a couple of tons
19:22:34  <Terkhen> great :)
19:23:04  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: yes it should be 15 cars for the smallest tram
19:23:20  <andythenorth> not sure on the big one
19:23:47  <andythenorth> I wonder if the big trams should be implemented as trains....but then again it's realistic to have them as trams
19:23:59  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: if it's more than 1+15, then you can't reduce it to 1 tile
19:24:09  *** Pe1erT [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
19:24:21  <andythenorth> 1 tile helps with the station queueing issues
19:24:22  <andythenorth> ?
19:24:41  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, for example...
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19:27:58  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I'm not sure for the big trams that they can be kept to 1 tile :)
19:30:48  <andythenorth> what should the coeffecient of T/E be for trams?
19:31:41  <Eddi|zuHause> steel on steel is 0.3 or something
19:32:06  <andythenorth> that's the default for RVs apparently
19:32:08  <andythenorth> Terkhen: ^
19:32:36  <Eddi|zuHause> gummy on asphalt is higher
19:32:54  *** Phoenix_the_II [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
19:33:51  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... my table says steel on steel (dry) is 0.15, tyre on asphalt (dry) is 0.8
19:34:49  <OwenS> openttd: /home/oshepherd/Projects/OpenTTD/logic/src/core/smallvec_type.hpp:159: void SmallVector<T, S>::Erase(T*) [with T = SignalInstruction*, unsigned int S = 4u]: Assertion `item >= this->Begin() && item < this->End()' failed. <-- Ooh, interesting
19:35:17  <Terkhen> IIRC 0'5 for trams, someone said that it should be greater than 0'3 (trains)
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19:36:44  <Eddi|zuHause> probably depends on the type of steel, and whether you can use sand
19:36:50  <andythenorth> gah
19:37:03  <andythenorth> vehicles refittable to passengers can't be routed to truck stations
19:37:28  <planetmaker> hm...
19:37:40  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... then no passengers i guess...
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19:40:53  <andythenorth> hmm
19:41:12  * planetmaker sees a feature request surfacing
19:41:20  <andythenorth> nope
19:41:33  <andythenorth> just can't figure out why my cargo tram can only route to passenger stations
19:41:35  <andythenorth> frick
19:41:41  <planetmaker> lol
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19:43:12  <Starn-TS3> hello? tis addon work for teamspeak 3? i thinkin it did yay! i can play games and bug you guys :P
19:43:42  <Eoin> lol
19:43:42  <OwenS> :S
19:43:43  <Eoin> irc addon?!
19:43:46  <Eoin> i need that
19:43:51  <Eoin> cause they i can get irc in WoW
19:43:55  <Starn> lol i found it on TS3 forums :D
19:44:04  <OwenS> Why isn't a SignalSpecial in the signal's instruction list?!
19:44:24  <OwenS> Double delete... Thats why...
19:45:01  <OwenS> This tells me that nobody tested the release I did last night. Or if they did, they didn't tell me that it crashed. And that I really didn't test said release well enough
19:45:57  <peter1138> welcome to testing
19:46:09  <peter1138> you'll rarely get bug reports
19:46:15  <planetmaker> testing is a bitch
19:46:35  <OwenS> Which is really annoying. Surely it's not difficult to say "Deleting a signal crashes the game?!
19:46:41  <Starn-TS3> mIRC has clouded my memory on IRC... is it /msg nickserv [command]?
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19:47:20  <planetmaker> OwenS, well... that's life, I guess... what release, btw? ;-)
19:47:29  <OwenS> planetmaker: The one I made yesterday has the bug
19:47:37  <planetmaker> well... yes... of what?
19:47:38  <Rubidium> OwenS: they'll only tell you about it a) once it hit trunk, b) once it's in a major stable release or c) just before the NEXT major stable releases
19:47:42  <OwenS> planetmaker: ProgSigs
19:47:51  <planetmaker> ah
19:47:54  <OwenS> Rubidium: *sigh*
19:48:31  *** Starn-TS3 [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
19:48:41  <Rubidium> also if it desyncs, it's more likely that a review from the developers finds it than the people that supposedly "tested" it
19:48:58  <OwenS> Rubidium: Thats why were going to run it on with the next release ;-)
19:49:55  <planetmaker> OwenS, 4 downloads is not that big of a testing crew... especially if one assumes that not every download ends up in a compile.
19:50:18  <Starn> o.o
19:50:18  <planetmaker> I'm certainly not the only person who more often looks at a patch than compiles it.
19:50:20  <OwenS> planetmaker: True. I hadn't checked the downloads. Now I'm just depressed that nobody has played it :-( :P
19:50:28  * planetmaker hugs OwenS
19:50:44  <Rubidium> OwenS: then you shouldn't say it's not finished/useful yet :)
19:50:55  <Starn> if you guys need more testers i am willing... i test for games by EA games and Blizzard and Atari and many more.. so i know how to test things :P
19:51:23  <Rubidium> Starn: and testing for them includes compiling the game yourself?
19:51:32  <planetmaker> :-)
19:52:22  <andythenorth> tram now routes correctly :)
19:53:16  * andythenorth needs to do something about either weight or T/E :|
19:53:27  <andythenorth> or hp
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19:54:16  <andythenorth> 80hp, 75t, steel on steel
19:54:26  <andythenorth> not the world's best hill-climber :o
19:55:39  <Starn> Rubidium no.. but i've compiled my own games before... with more crashes that working...
19:57:55  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: how good should these trams be at climbing hills?
19:58:27  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: medium
19:58:37  <Eddi|zuHause> they should be able to climb a bridge ramp
19:58:48  <andythenorth> hmm good test
19:58:55  <Eddi|zuHause> but they should not be used in mountaneous territory
20:00:26  <andythenorth> I suppose cheating the T/E is ok
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20:04:01  <OwenS> hmm
20:04:11  <OwenS> Doxygen doesn't list _current_company's definition file
20:05:06  <Rubidium> huh?
20:05:09  <Rubidium> doubtful
20:05:41  *** DJ_Nekkid [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:06:10  <__ln__> (photoshop)
20:06:17  <OwenS> Well its certainly not in the globals list for me
20:06:17  <Rubidium> all files except the squirrel files cause doxygen to generate html
20:06:39  <Rubidium> OwenS: oh, that's probably because the variable isn't doxygened
20:07:01  <OwenS> You should turn on the document undocumented members option :p
20:07:02  <glx> maybe it's still in variables.h ;)
20:07:04  <Rubidium> i.e. it doesn't have a /** .. */-ish comment
20:07:19  <Rubidium> glx: no, it's in company_func.h
20:07:55  <glx> oh variables.h is almost empty now
20:08:00  <OwenS> Right. Because it's logical to find variables among functions :-P
20:08:02  <glx> it used to be way bigger
20:08:18  <Rubidium> OwenS: feel free to write patches that reduce doxygen's stderr output :)
20:08:52  <OwenS> Rubidium: Well, at least ProgSigs shouldn't increase it ;-)
20:09:50  *** fonsinchen [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:10:27  <OwenS> Actually, I think I may have documented a few undocs while I was documenting some of my own :-)
20:10:40  *** ss23 [] has quit [Quit: leaving]
20:11:41  <Eddi|zuHause> OwenS: as long as you don't do "//<<< insert doc here" comments...
20:11:49  <OwenS> Eddi|zuHause: I don't :P
20:12:13  <Rubidium> the error output of doxygen is 'only' 1.4 MiB, so lots of chances you can find something to document
20:12:39  <Rubidium> hmm, again MSVC64 warnings :(
20:13:19  <Starn> hey what exactly is needed to even compile openttd? and reason i am asking is i am thinking about getting back into coding. also wanting to compile Xchat.
20:13:54  <glx> let me check MSVC64
20:14:06  <Rubidium> Starn:
20:14:23  <OwenS> Good news: Demolition, track removal and signal removal all correctly free the signal programs
20:14:35  <OwenS> Also, they dont' crash :p
20:15:23  <Rubidium> maybe people liked that "feature"
20:15:43  <planetmaker> Feature: Don't crash - I like that
20:17:15  <Starn> would newest Visual studio 2010 work?
20:17:46  <Starn> or am i gonna have to dig around for my older Cd's?
20:17:59  <glx> try :)
20:18:03  <planetmaker> Did you read the page you were linked to?
20:18:13  <Starn> part of it
20:18:18  <planetmaker> ...
20:18:28  <Starn> multitasking and still trying to sober up.
20:19:22  <Starn> it does not mention visual c++ 2010 :(
20:19:39  <glx> it's not out yet anyway
20:19:44  <Starn> guess i find my Cd's for visual c++ 2005 or 2008
20:19:47  <Starn> i have it :D
20:20:01  *** Nite_Owl [] has joined #openttd
20:20:02  <Starn> i beta for M$ sometimes.
20:20:16  <Nite_Owl> Hello all
20:20:22  <planetmaker> hello Nite_Owl
20:20:36  <Nite_Owl> Hello planetmaker
20:20:53  <Starn> woo they have eclipes listed!
20:20:56  <glx> Rubidium: only 2 warnings indeed ;)
20:21:37  <Rubidium> pushing size_t down into blob is probably not nice, right?
20:22:43  <Rubidium> Starn: MSVC2010 isn't officially supported by OpenTTD
20:22:57  <OwenS> Starn: 2008 express is a free download though
20:23:32  <Starn> i know i have 2008... and 2005... on some lovely CD's provided by some lovely people.
20:23:53  <Starn> but i am on windows 7 pro 64bit. and i am trying to get more native to my system
20:26:17  <Starn> alright i am using my CD's for 2008.. i have 2010 on here to i might see if it works with it.
20:27:39  <glx> I'd say r19467
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20:43:45  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: frosch * r19514 /trunk/src/ (console.cpp console_cmds.cpp console_internal.h): -Codechange: Allow console hooks to deny existance of commands.
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20:47:15  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: frosch * r19515 /trunk/src/ (console_cmds.cpp settings_type.h table/settings.h):
20:47:15  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: -Add: Client setting 'gui.newgrf_developer_tools' to enable otherwise hidden features.
20:47:15  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: -Add: Console command 'reload_newgrfs'; only available when newgrf developer tools are enabled.
20:47:22  <PeterT> frosch: ^ that's an interesting one
20:50:42  <planetmaker> :-O
20:51:46  <andythenorth> frosch: ^ nice commits :)
20:51:59  <frosch> one patch less for you to apply :p
20:52:36  *** Tennel_ [] has joined #openttd
20:52:45  <planetmaker> :-)
20:52:47  *** fonsinchen [] has joined #openttd
20:52:48  *** Tennel_ [] has quit []
20:53:02  <planetmaker> very nice, yes
20:53:11  <planetmaker> frosch, does it apply to base sets, too?
20:53:55  <frosch> graphics sets most likely yes, sounds set no idea
20:54:10  <planetmaker> cool :-)
20:54:15  <frosch> i guess: try it
20:54:23  <planetmaker> :-) I will.
20:54:26  *** Tennel [~Tennel@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:54:55  <frosch> but it does not reread .obg or tars
20:55:40  <planetmaker> only the content of opened and used files makes sense. so that's what it does?
20:56:04  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: the small tram carries 60t.  Top speed 15mph, climbs a bridge slope at 3-4mph, a bigger slope at 2-3mph
20:56:21  <andythenorth> sound ok?
20:57:31  <frosch> planetmaker: it does the same as reapplying newgrfs in the newgrf gui. reload the newgrfs from the same path without checking grfids or md5sums, and reset newgrf data (like e.g. resetengines)
20:58:30  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: what's that in real measures? :)
20:58:45  <andythenorth> what, some kind of crazy metric system?
20:58:57  <andythenorth> or SI?
20:59:14  <Eddi|zuHause> no, in saxon postal miles, of course :p
20:59:21  <andythenorth> meh
20:59:48  <Eddi|zuHause> i mean km/h
20:59:52  <andythenorth> 16 vehicles 1/8 long looks very pretty going up and down slopes :)
21:00:54  * andythenorth ponders an entirely new way of creating vehicles
21:01:47  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: 24km/h top speed, 4-6km/h on a bridge slope, 3-4km/h on bigger slope
21:02:11  <andythenorth> also, speed out to be part of the incentive to refit to shorter trains....
21:02:36  <andythenorth> I'll test a 9 wagon consist with this loco
21:04:23  <frosch> [22:03] <andythenorth> 16 vehicles 1/8 long looks very pretty going up and down slopes :) <- sounds like a new approach to burst the 64k vehicle limit :p
21:05:30  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: 9 wagons gives 50t, 24km/h top speed, climbs any slope at 6-8km/h
21:05:33  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch: you have a better idea to add/remove vehicles during refit?
21:05:41  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that sounds good
21:05:48  <frosch> nope, its the only way :)
21:06:27  <frosch> that is just my method to mentally prepare for somewhen lifting that limit, as it gets encountere more often
21:06:35  <andythenorth> I was thinking of making a 'single' vehicle from 8 very thinly sliced sprites and 8 1/8 vehicles.  Follows slopes nicely :)
21:07:04  <frosch> how does it look in curves?
21:08:56  <andythenorth> frosch: rubbish :)
21:09:32  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: 4 wagon consist 16t, 12km/h on any slope
21:09:58  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: great
21:10:02  <frosch> if you are lucky fs#3569 might make short vehicles at least turn around their central axis
21:10:29  <Belugas> bye
21:10:30  <Belugas> buy
21:10:50  <frosch> bye belugas
21:11:01  <frosch> buy some cookies?
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21:16:44  * andythenorth wonders if industrial trams should have any random liveries
21:16:54  <andythenorth> as the copy and paste code supports that
21:16:58  <andythenorth> and is about to get deleted...
21:17:39  <Starn> i've noticed something...
21:17:56  <Starn> why is their no 18 wheelers?
21:18:11  * andythenorth hides
21:18:48  <__ln__> Starn: english only
21:18:57  <Starn> i am speaking english.
21:19:32  <planetmaker> Each sentence of the last three contained at least one error
21:20:02  <Starn> not my fualt i can not spell... ok so maybe it is but still.
21:20:04  *** Tennel [] has joined #openttd
21:20:52  <Starn> just think.. i am an american..
21:21:00  <planetmaker> The answer to your question: Nobody, also not you, did draw one. Or neither you nor me know which newgrf has one
21:21:10  <Nite_Owl> eGRVTS
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21:22:02  <andythenorth> egrvts features 14 wheelers
21:22:21  <Nite_Owl> close enough
21:22:26  <Starn> oh if it is a matter of drawing one than i can draw a box with wheels and and windows and another box with wheels yay
21:22:45  <planetmaker> Starn, being American (or more specifically US, I guess) entitles you to crappy language? Interesting...
21:23:10  <OwenS> I'd say it entitles you less than the 90% of the people in this room for which it is a second language ;-)
21:23:16  <Starn> no it should entitle me to better language skills primarly in english..
21:24:00  <andythenorth> HEQS has a 24 wheeler
21:24:08  <Starn> 24!?
21:24:21  <andythenorth> and a 28 wheeler + 2 tracks :)
21:24:27  <planetmaker> :-)
21:24:30  <Starn> o.O
21:24:43  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: glx * r19516 /trunk/src/misc/ (blob.hpp str.hpp): -Fix (r19467): MSVC 64bit warnings
21:24:58  *** frosch [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
21:25:57  <Nite_Owl> and some huge dump trucks
21:26:14  <Starn> hehe dump trucks :)
21:27:06  <Starn> sweet i start up openTTD and i hear thunder..
21:28:01  *** Tennel [] has quit [Quit: WeeChat]
21:28:04  <Starn> guess i shall check radar and some weather reports see if i can stay on or not...
21:28:26  <Nite_Owl> Plonk anyone ?? Do I hear a Plonk ??
21:29:03  <Starn> hmm judging by the size of the hail i gtg...
21:29:12  <Nite_Owl> <with apologies to DaleStan>
21:29:22  *** Starn [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
21:29:33  <Eddi|zuHause> "two plonks, do i hear more?"
21:29:58  <Nite_Owl> I guess the hail hit his connection
21:30:21  * andythenorth tries to figure out how to enable newgrf_developer_tools
21:30:24  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: glx * r19517 /trunk/src/misc/str.hpp: -Fix (r19516): compile before commit (a gcc warning was hidden)
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21:51:43  <OwenS> Hmm, this is somewhat... interesting...
21:51:45  *** snack2 [] has quit [Quit: ( :: NoNameScript 4.22 :: )]
21:51:59  <OwenS> I need to be able to click on a specific signal. That is, one facing down a specific Trackdir...
21:59:42  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: improve the wording?
22:00:54  <__ln__> "road vehicle" sounds so wrong if it's a tram.
22:01:21  <andythenorth> __ln__: can't be helped :)
22:01:30  <andythenorth> could, probably quite easily :)
22:02:15  *** Progman [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
22:02:20  <andythenorth> alternative wording:
22:02:56  <Eddi|zuHause> i find the first one better
22:03:00  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i've thought about that myself, but i'm not sure if it can be improvedi
22:03:12  <Eddi|zuHause> -i
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22:09:28  <andythenorth> I thought there was a cb for the default name of a vehicle :o
22:09:34  <andythenorth> that would fix the issue for trams
22:11:25  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause:
22:12:18  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i'm not sure if i like that
22:13:14  <andythenorth> sometimes colour can make things too....noisy
22:16:00  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: one more, although this is almost certainly a bad idea
22:16:06  <andythenorth> also...check the title
22:16:17  <andythenorth> (the vehicle name)
22:16:43  <Eddi|zuHause> mÀÀh...
22:16:47  <andythenorth> thought so
22:17:05  <andythenorth> I'll keep it simple
22:17:27  <andythenorth> if someone adds (discovers?) a cb for setting default vehicle name, I'll use it...
22:18:51  <andythenorth> looks like offset 60
22:19:09  <andythenorth> if the player can set it, surely a newgrf hook isn't a big deal?
22:20:42  <Eddi|zuHause> HAH, finally a bad commit in this bisect... i was thinking i'm going mad and imagined this bug...
22:21:06  *** Tennel [] has quit [Quit: WeeChat]
22:22:48  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you mean similar to town name lookup?
22:23:11  <andythenorth> think so.  I know I've seen this somewhere, but it seems not for vehicles...
22:23:21  <andythenorth> I guess it's a bit like industry setting station name?
22:23:29  <andythenorth> in concept, not implementation :)
22:23:34  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: problem is, the callback must be called every time the name is displayed (vehicle details, vehicle list, etc.)
22:23:40  <Eddi|zuHause> this might get slow
22:23:48  <andythenorth> hmm
22:24:02  <andythenorth> I was thinking just set it as the default when the vehicle is built?
22:24:03  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know how it's done with industries
22:24:12  <andythenorth> if the player can rename vehicle, so can the build code...
22:24:16  <Eddi|zuHause> these names tend to not be stored
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22:24:28  <Eddi|zuHause> vehicle renaming works different
22:25:18  <OwenS> Unrenamed trains get composed from a translated string do they not?
22:25:45  <andythenorth> Hmm
22:25:47  <OwenS> Yeah, "STR_SV_ROAD_VEHICLE_NAME                                        :Road Vehicle {COMMA}"
22:26:10  <andythenorth> actually, if trams are not names "Road vehicle n", it starts to become inconsistent with menus etc.
22:26:31  <andythenorth> maybe changing it is a bad idea
22:27:54  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: possible could be a property, but not a callback
22:28:25  <andythenorth> yep, better idea.  I was thinking it would need a cb to set it, but it can just be a prop with a string ID ?
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22:31:07  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
22:31:21  <Eddi|zuHause> and if 0, use ottd string
22:31:34  <andythenorth> "make it so" :P
22:31:50  <andythenorth> what could go wrong?
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22:33:21  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm sure there's a "GetVehicleName" function somewhere
22:36:12  <OwenS> Picking, picking picking... hmm....
22:40:04  <OwenS> ...Perhaps I should take the easy way out, and only allow selecting one ways...
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22:42:35  * andythenorth discovers newgrf_developer_tools setting
22:42:37  <andythenorth> yay
22:43:21  <andythenorth> is there a config option for console height?
22:44:15  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't remember one
22:44:27  <Eddi|zuHause> but new windows snap to the console after it is open
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23:27:58  <Yexo> is there any reason to use action9 instead of action7 except skipping action F?
23:30:21  <Eddi|zuHause> i never understood the difference
23:34:17  <SpComb> <-- this suggestion is mising one crucial thing
23:34:41  <planetmaker> <-- this says it matters for action3
23:35:02  <planetmaker> and action4.
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23:36:08  <Yexo> planetmaker: yes, it matters, but I don't see any advantage of action9 (except for action F)
23:36:48  <Yexo> "If in doubt, use action 7 except to skip an action 6 or F.", but then later "6 (apply param)	n/a*	yes	* "yes" since 2.0.1 alpha 51 " so even skipping action6 would be ok
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23:38:34  <planetmaker> hm
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23:44:57  <planetmaker> I could imagine to use action9 and action7 differently, when you want to skip a lot during initialization but upon activation - as a function of available newgrf - apply certain sprite replacements
23:45:06  <planetmaker> Sounds complicated? Probably is.
23:46:14  <planetmaker> ah, exchange activation and initialization in the sentence ;-)
23:50:28  <Terkhen> good night
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23:54:21  <planetmaker> good night from here, too
23:56:17  <Ammler> Yexo: I needed Action9 to skip openttd only features in opengfx for ttdpatch
23:57:10  <Yexo> ah, good point
23:57:50  <Ammler> Yexo: tell me, why :-P
23:58:25  <Yexo> because that means I'll have to implement support for action9 too
23:58:42  <Ammler> maybe the difference is in patch only?
23:59:16  <Yexo> even in that case it'd be a good reason to suport action9
23:59:53  <Ammler> but what is the difference?

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