Log for #openttd on 29th March 2010:
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02:03:47  <Wizzleby> question for any familliar with building openttd on osx, is the crazy CFLAG setting in config.lib really necessary? Are there certain parts that are more wanted than others?
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02:04:16  <Wizzleby> s:familliar:familiar:
02:05:05  <glx> you just need to run configure
02:10:37  <Wizzleby> of that much I am aware, and then CFLAGS gets some oddball settings like -O3 -funroll-loops etc
02:11:06  <glx> looks like optimisation stuff
02:20:24  <Wizzleby> it is, it's rather agressive use of CFLAGS actually, practically ricing I'd say. For context, I am debugging the ebuild script to work properly with gentoo prefix on an OSX host, and so, unless I patch config.lib to remove that check, those CFLAGS get pulled in to a user's build, which causes failure on some systems
02:22:50  <Wizzleby> the general policy in Gentoo for CFLAGS is to respect the environment that portage passes to the build. But in this case, heavy optimisation is pulled in which can conflict with a user's global CFLAGS
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02:29:44  <glx> well it's not really the right time to ask as most devs are in CEST time zone
02:30:45  <glx> and it's time to sleep for me
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06:13:45  <Terkhen> damned DST
06:14:19  <Rubidium> yeah... how can you be saving daylight when there is more daylight?
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06:36:15  <planetmaker> moin moin
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08:00:20  <knome> hey. incorrectly says you need the TTD files
08:00:59  <Forked> so fix it :)
08:01:17  <knome> feel free to :P
08:02:38  <knome> anyway, do you happen to know when 1.0.0 is supposed to be released?
08:04:20  <knome> is the direct link to the section. i'll leave the updating for somebody else
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08:11:50  <planetmaker> knome, *someone* has already a HUGE list of tasks assigned to him.
08:11:58  <planetmaker> Unlikely that he'll find time anytime soon
08:24:33  <Ammler> someone is banned from openttd, if he/she should do it, nobody does...
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10:47:01  <ddfreyne> hmm
 I cannot find the changes for 1.0.x. where should I look for them?
10:47:22  <PeterT>
10:47:26  <PeterT> and changelog.txt
10:47:38  <ddfreyne> ahh, thanks
 not sure why I didn’t find that
10:49:49  <Rubidium> heh, that wiki page is still incomplete?
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10:55:47  <ddfreyne> hmm
 is cargodest on the roadmap for a certain release?
10:56:17  <planetmaker> nope. CargodEst is dead for a year
10:56:31  <ddfreyne> no activity on the branch either?
10:56:41  <planetmaker> otherwise it woulnd't be dead
10:56:58  <ddfreyne> hm, checked out the repository and seems like it. aw.
10:57:23  <planetmaker> developer vanished (again)
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10:57:34  <roboboy> try cargod?st
10:58:04  <ddfreyne> planetmaker: that sucks
10:58:42  <planetmaker> that's life, I guess
10:58:51  <ddfreyne> planetmaker: as far as I can tell (and you’ll have to excuse me for not being really involved in the community and development) the branch was well on its way and it seemed playable
10:58:52  <planetmaker> you could try cargodIst
10:59:00  <planetmaker> but that's far from complete, too
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10:59:04  <roboboy> is cargodest or cargodist prefered for inclusion once one is finished
10:59:22  <planetmaker> roboboy, who knows?
11:00:04  <Rubidium> the only answer I could give to that question is "no"
11:00:31  <planetmaker> boost vs. desync :-P
11:00:44  <roboboy> so whichever is done first and best
11:00:48  <Rubidium> under the assumption that "one" means any "cargo has destination"-implementation
11:04:54  <ddfreyne> ahh, cargodist is indeed in active development I see
11:07:00  <Forked> DJNekkid: come and pick up your new DSL modem. Should sort out your connection issues.
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12:00:51  <OwenS> <-- I am impressed!
12:01:39  <OwenS> nand1.png is a zoom on on one of the full adder elements
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12:10:22  <FauxFaux> Now just make the game engine fast enough and supportive of big enough maps that we can have a useful turing machine. ¬_¬
12:12:40  <OwenS> FauxFaux: A bit of NAND-based memory takes up ~10x10 tiles. BIIIG maps :p
12:13:28  <OwenS> If I added memory to ProgSigs, then it would be interesting, however (Though building the thing would be insane)
12:13:44  <FauxFaux> Iirc she was cheating and generating the gates anyway.
12:14:09  <OwenS> Presumably copy & paste
12:14:11  <OwenS> ?
12:14:25  <FauxFaux> I thought it was save files, but maybe.
12:14:46  <OwenS> Because copy & paste is completely unaware of signal programs :D
12:16:04  <OwenS> Also: How do you decide which signal a lookup should look at? One adjusted for the paste's location? The original? What if you're now looking at a signalless tile? What if you're looking at a signal you can't legally inspect?
12:17:33  <__ln__> is that an adder?
12:17:42  <OwenS> Yes. An 8-bit full adder
12:18:20  <__ln__> nice
12:18:28  <Rubidium> OwenS: so in effect progsigs makes "copy&paste" completely infeasible
12:18:40  <OwenS> Rubidium: If you copy the signal program, it makes it very complex
12:18:54  <FauxFaux> Excel manages it. </not entirely j$o$k$e suggestion>
12:19:12  <FauxFaux> The next trick is to implement programmable signals in pure ottd nand gates.
12:19:14  <OwenS> It's possible, you would just have to deal with the corner cases (Though I'd be happy to do so)
12:19:23  <OwenS> **happy to help do so
12:20:26  <OwenS> I think I'd decide that references to signals inside the copy region are relative, to ones outside are absolute
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12:22:08  <OwenS> Then it would be corner case checking, and working out the interface that c&p would use to do the actual pasting
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12:25:00  <OwenS> (It would need an interface which returns the instruction ID of the just-added (by DoCommandP) instruction, and also need to deal with corner cases, like Start/End/Else/Endif pseudo instructions)
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12:30:06  <OwenS> Rubidium: Its not much more than I'll deal with if/when I add the ability to save programs
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12:53:04  <andythenorth> silly graphics argument :(
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13:07:45  <Belugas> hello
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13:10:50  <planetmaker> hello sir Belugas :-)
13:16:02  <Rubidium> yay... Belugas is back at the "right" time again :)
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13:18:17  <DJNekkid> Forked: at your home or at work? im off work theese 3 days :)
13:18:44  <DJNekkid> (if i saied it two times, sorry, but it looked like i were disconnected)
13:19:07  <planetmaker> you said it only once
13:19:36  <Belugas> hehe
13:19:58  <Belugas> looks like Europ caught up time :)
13:20:15  <Belugas> planetmaker, Rubidium, i salute you humbly and respectfully
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13:25:36  <Rubidium> DJNekkid: I must say, I like you writing "saied" :) "sayed" I can imagine because of 'just' appending '-ed', although "said" is the right way of writing. But "saied" looks like a mixup
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13:51:03  <Forked> dumdidum
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14:42:23  <erani>
14:45:12  <Eddi|zuHause> you realize that carry-ripple-adders aren't actually used anywhere except in float-multiplications...
14:46:27  <Eddi|zuHause> it's both slow and has signal strength issues
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14:57:26  <Rubidium> argh.... stupid DST... now I'm hungry at the wrong time
14:58:07  <Rubidium> hungry two hours before the "winter time" time that is :(
15:00:05  <planetmaker> I have a spare carrot here.... :-)
15:00:13  <planetmaker> and now I need another :-(
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15:04:07  <aber> spare carrot???
15:04:42  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: you moved the clock in the wrong direction? :)
15:06:20  <Rubidium> doubtful, because I didn't move the clock
15:12:34  <planetmaker> aber, yes, I have a bunch of carrots in my office. They feed me when I'm hungry but when it's not yet feeding time
15:14:21  <aber> planetmaker, one day, it was more like a week, noo like a month. I harvested 8 tons of carrots. Since then i'm a little strange about carrots... :)
15:15:09  <planetmaker> hehe
15:15:37  <Eddi|zuHause> you wished you had a spare carrot back then :p
15:15:40  <planetmaker> they make healthier "snack" than chocolate or alike
15:16:07  <Eddi|zuHause> snacks shouldn't be healthy... they should be "brain food"
15:16:21  <planetmaker> :-)
15:16:22  <Eddi|zuHause> ... i.e. energy that the stomach doesn't have to process
15:16:36  <Eddi|zuHause> so it gets to the brain faster
15:18:47  <Rubidium> I don't need stuff that makes my brain go faster... then I'll have even more trouble keeping up with my thoughts when writing them down
15:25:20  <Belugas> yup... same as Rubidium in here.  Brian goes fast enough as it is.  no need more coffee than the 4 I took since this morning
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15:26:34  <aber> 4 l, thats pretty much i'd say
15:26:55  <Rubidium> aber: Belugas isn't an American that slurps ventis
15:26:57  <lennard> 4 I != 4L
15:28:28  <Belugas> lol
15:28:30  <Belugas> indeed not...
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15:28:45  <Belugas> the I stands for ME...
15:28:57  <Rubidium> oh, sorry a trenta is more like a liter than a venti
15:29:11  <Rubidium> can't remember trenta's being sold in Japan though
15:30:32  <aber> Il maybe i should change the font to something... different Il
15:33:08  <aber> maybe i should complain to the european union...
15:34:02  <Rubidium> for the broken font on your computer?
15:35:32  <aber> it shouldn't be allowed to produce fonts with such a little difference between two letters... That is very dangerous...
15:38:07  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, we totally need a regulation on font shapes :p
15:40:29  <planetmaker> 72dot size. Everywhere.
15:43:16  <Belugas> the world would be a better place if everything was standardized.  one money, one langage, one measure system, one god or many, for what it's worth...
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15:46:35  * Rubidium would vote for no gods
15:46:39  <Eddi|zuHause> one time zone! :p
15:46:57  * Belugas votes for both suggestions!
15:47:04  <aber> i would say first attack britain...
15:47:05  <Rubidium> asking (and getting!) forgiveness from god for killing someone is just plain stupid
15:47:39  * fjb supports Rubidium.
15:47:40  <glx> killing in name of god is worse
15:47:52  <Eddi|zuHause> that's only a symptom, not the cause
15:48:06  <Belugas> killing or fighting in name of anyone/anything is bad as hell
15:48:08  <Eddi|zuHause> if there were no religions, people'd find other reasons to kill...
15:48:38  <glx> like petrol ?
15:48:41  <aber> haha, i believe thats not the only reason...
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15:49:10  <Rubidium> don't forgets the WMD (ways of mass deception)
15:49:35  <aber> ... the biggest chance to get killed is from your own wife or husband...
15:50:04  <Rubidium> aber: lies... it's your parents
15:50:33  <aber> better get the cap back on the toothpaste...
15:51:35  <Rubidium> oh, if you need to think about that then it's already way too late to reduce the chance of getting killed
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16:49:51  <SpComb> gathers:
16:49:56  <SpComb> gathers: some autosep questions
16:52:38  <gathers> SpComb, thanks, I'll have a look at it later
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17:06:06  <SpComb> btw, is the one-way road crash something that might be fixed in trunk post-r19387?
17:06:40  <Rubidium> might, but I don't remember such a crash being reported
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17:23:57  <andythenorth> anything interesting happened?
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17:27:57  <Rubidium> depends what's interesting and what timescale your speaking about
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17:31:20  <Jolteon> In the time you went, Rubidium declared war on orudge, orudge nuked Rubidium, a treaty was signed, we all witnessed it, andythenorth.
17:31:49  <andythenorth> Rubidium: timescale: galactic?
17:35:03  <Rubidium> in that case... there was a huge rock that was impacted by a big rock, that made a mess resulting in two rocks spinning around eachother. Then more (much) smaller rocks hit the rocks.
17:45:38  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: translators * r19525 /trunk/src/lang/ (czech.txt greek.txt ukrainian.txt):
17:45:38  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:38  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: czech - 5 changes by Harlequin
17:45:38  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: greek - 1 changes by fumantsu
17:45:38  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: ukrainian - 4 changes by onufryk
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18:02:30  <andythenorth> I find it bizarre that people are so protective over graphics.
18:02:43  <andythenorth> but then no-one has horribly ripped off any of mine yet :o
18:03:29  * andythenorth GPL la la la la la la la
18:03:38  <frosch123> maybe they are too ugly :p
18:03:53  <andythenorth> he
18:04:26  <frosch123> but yes, i also wondered why so many keep them that restrictive
18:05:10  <andythenorth> I make mine GPL because I want to be *sure* that other people can use them in a proper way.
18:05:17  <Rubidium> frosch123: because they "steal" from Simon
18:05:28  <blathijs> Perhaps the difference between artists and coders is that coders are used to using other people's code, whereas artists are used to creating their own artwork
18:05:53  <blathijs> e.g., artists aren't used to being on the receiving side
18:05:54  <andythenorth> I want to wade into that argument, especially against mb
18:06:28  <andythenorth> blathijs: exactly.  the code is given freely, for the good of the game.  I find it offensive that mb can say a "coder" can't see how an artist is 'special'
18:06:31  <planetmaker> missing a 'not'? ;-)
18:07:04  <andythenorth> so tempted.....I don't want to knock Irwe's thread massively OT though :o
18:07:15  <andythenorth> meh internet dramas
18:07:22  <George> hi
18:07:28  <andythenorth> hi George :)
18:07:32  <George> What's the sprites limit in OTTD?
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18:07:42  <frosch123> for what sprites?
18:07:50  <George> Trains and wagons
18:08:00  * Rubidium makes a safe bet: you computer's memory
18:08:01  <frosch123> i guess your memory limit
18:08:15  <planetmaker> :-)
18:08:25  <George> 1gb?
18:08:31  <George> ;)
18:08:55  <Rubidium> @calc 1024*1048576/2**24
18:08:55  <DorpsGek> Rubidium: 64
18:09:19  <George> 64 trains?
18:09:39  <Rubidium> so the sprites may be at most 64 bytes (including metadata) to hit the limit (if it's 16 million)
18:09:47  <Jupix> andythenorth: I've got two answers to your question, the first is you should read over some of Sergej_S:s threads (again?), and the second is that in the 32bpp field at least, it's not the artists running for absolute clarity in matters of licensing, it's the administrators, who want to make sure stuff that ends up in a baseset conversion doesn't have a questionable legal background
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18:11:17  <George> so, 16 mln trains?
18:12:02  *** sparr [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:12:24  <frosch123> well, more than you can build in one game
18:12:30  <planetmaker> George, you can 'only' define 64k vehicle ids.
18:12:33  <andythenorth> Jupix: I've never read a thread by Sergej_S....what am I missing?
18:12:51  <frosch123> planetmaker: but everyone of them can look different every day :p
18:13:05  <planetmaker> :-D
18:13:15  <planetmaker> the polymorphic train fleet
18:13:41  <Rubidium> George: no, 16-ish million sprites
18:13:55  <frosch123> andythenorth: some weird old guy, putting random 32bpp graphics into ottd screenshots
18:14:11  <andythenorth> I don't go in the 3sbpp forum :P
18:14:24  <Jupix> andythenorth: when artists posted (preliminary) preview renders of their work, he took them without permission to create large "megapacks" of his own ... and did a bloody poor job of it, too, most artists were royally pissed and he was banned as a result
18:14:41  <Jupix> also, he didn't speak english
18:14:45  <Rubidium> but given normal sprite sizes you can't hit that limit before running out of memory on < 4GB machines
18:14:45  <blathijs> Do I need the newest grfcodec to build opengfx, or can I use r2294 as well?
18:15:00  <planetmaker> blathijs, I think it should be fine
18:15:10  <blathijs> planetmaker: k, thanks
18:15:12  <Rubidium> blathijs: 2294 should work, just check the md5 checksums (though the make check thingy is currently a bit broken)
18:15:30  <andythenorth> Jupix: so do people use the mega packs?
18:15:33  <Rubidium> blathijs: in other words, new OpenGFX/OpenSFX versions are due 'soon'
18:16:50  <Jupix> andythenorth: yes, I would imagine anyone who wants 32bpp to "just work" uses them, dl'ing and installing individual tars is...  so 2007.
18:17:25  <andythenorth> Jupix: where are they distributed?
18:17:34  <Jupix> in the 32bpp forums. :D
18:17:39  <blathijs> Rubidium: Uh? I don't see how those remarks relate. Also, I thought that yesterday's OpenGFX release would be the last one before 1.0 at least?
18:18:48  <George> Rubidium: Thank you
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18:20:07  <Rubidium> blathijs: yeah, but I really hope (for the sake of getting the downstream packaging right) that there'll be a new OpenGFX; there will be a new OpenSFX
18:20:20  <andythenorth> Jupix: so the forums are used to distribute material which infringes copyright?  easily solved I would think
18:20:41  <Rubidium> andythenorth: yeah, take down zernebok!
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18:21:28  <blathijs> Rubidium: What is there to get right?
18:21:40  <Rubidium> blathijs: the workings of "make check"
18:21:46  <blathijs> Ah
18:21:48  <blathijs> right
18:21:50  <Jupix> andythenorth: oh, in sergey's case they were presented on nearly unusable websites, hosted on some nameless russian servers that were dead slow
18:21:57  *** sparr [] has joined #openttd
18:22:20  <andythenorth> Jupix: hmmm....I don't have a good answer to that particular case :o
18:22:22  <blathijs> Rubidium: What's the idea behind that? When building the source tarball, the md5's of the official builds are included?
18:22:59  <Jupix> andythenorth: yeah... he didn't have either, apart from "if you have better hosting space to donate, go right ahead"
18:23:17  <Jupix> in broken babelfish english, of course :D
18:23:25  <Rubidium> blathijs: yes; the content server stuff depends on the md5 checksums, so if they mismatch you might get into a situation where it'll continuously think that you don't have the newest OpenGFX/OpenSFX yet
18:24:19  <Rubidium> blathijs: and then it'll download it again, just to find out it has two sets with the same version and then it 'ignores' one with a big chance that the 'wrong' one is ignored (the wrong one is the one that isn't on the content server)
18:24:52  * andythenorth considers starting yet-another-use-the-GPL-forum-bunfight, just for entertainment :P
18:25:59  <Rubidium> andythenorth: just search for sets that include your GPL-ed graphics (or derivates of your graphics). Then you can simply claim that the set is also GPL :)
18:26:12  <andythenorth> :)
18:26:19  <planetmaker> hihi :-)
18:26:44  <aber> GPL is a strange thing...
18:26:52  <Rubidium> and for those who haven't realised it yet... if you use OpenGFX sprites to base your work on :)
18:26:58  <frosch123> hmm, maybe if you use the affero gpl you might claim getting the source of the server in case it runs them
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18:27:34  <andythenorth> GPL is a beautiful thing :)
18:28:09  <andythenorth> When I start making graphics I decided not to worry about people pillaging them
18:28:20  <andythenorth> it's going to happen
18:28:42  <planetmaker> probably.
18:28:54  <blathijs> Bah, building Debian packages is not working right now, it seems my build root points to, which is broken atm
18:29:04  <blathijs> Let's just do other stuff, then :-)
18:29:04  * andythenorth can't stand whining 'artists'
18:29:15  *** Goulp [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:29:19  <andythenorth> unless they are whining about industry placement issues
18:29:26  <Rubidium> blathijs: just let it point to some other server :)
18:29:33  <Rubidium> should be relatively easy
18:29:49  <blathijs> Rubidium: Its only a few commands, but I can't be bothered right now.. :-)
18:29:59  <planetmaker> meh
18:30:14  <andythenorth> planetmaker: if I prep a FIRS 0.1.1 bug fix, do you have a one-shot way to do the release yet?
18:30:23  <blathijs> I'll try again when it is back up (also, waiting a few days with grfcodec makes sure that the current version propagates to testing)
18:30:49  <planetmaker> andythenorth, "one-shot-way" is something I wouldn't use on a release ;-)
18:31:11  <andythenorth> two shot?
18:31:19  <planetmaker> but in principle: hg tag 0.1.1
18:31:21  <planetmaker> hg up 0.1.1
18:31:24  <planetmaker> make bundle_zip
18:31:28  <planetmaker> and upload that to bananas
18:31:31  <planetmaker> hg up
18:31:36  <planetmaker> afterwards your repo
18:31:43  <planetmaker> devzone will need the files, though
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18:48:30  <Ryand-Smith> put it this way
18:48:41  <Ryand-Smith> Breakdowns are semi realistic for new units
18:48:56  <Ryand-Smith> as that I feel is the period when you are breaking in the unit, you will find odd problems
18:49:10  <Ryand-Smith> But after the first few years or so they should stop
18:49:46  <OwenS> Or reliability goes up exponentially
18:50:00  <OwenS> And after a while maintanance just becomes more expensive?
18:50:36  <Ryand-Smith> Yes
18:50:53  <Ryand-Smith> that represents how you can't find parts for old things, and they just wear down
18:51:10  <Ryand-Smith> hell, they replaced the GG1s due to parts (yay using PCBs for air filters)
18:51:52  <Ryand-Smith> However, some companies use busses for 30 years instead of the 20 or so they were meant to last, and they do break down more often then younger units
18:52:11  <OwenS> By PCBs I presume you mean Polychlorinated Bithingies, not Printec Circuit Boards :p
18:52:20  <Ryand-Smith> That's the one
18:52:31  <Ryand-Smith> I don't even think the GG1 had that kind of electronics
18:52:44  <OwenS> 'round here companies run some busses around ~30 years old...
18:53:08  <OwenS> You can tell as they have XYZ 000 old style registrations...
18:53:13  <Ryand-Smith> I'm in NJ, we ideally would replace the 30 year old flexible busses, BUT there isn't money and the new electric ones ...
18:53:19  <Ryand-Smith> they don't work in rain very well
18:54:10  <Ryand-Smith> the sad thing is the company who made the busses went under so they have to get people to make parts just for them
18:54:48  <aber> in old europe we use still gas in busses...
18:55:20  <Ryand-Smith> We have fancy LNG busses
18:55:23  <Ryand-Smith> and flywheels
18:55:37  <Ryand-Smith> but mostly diesel fuel, with some diesel electric prototypes
18:56:04  <aber> gas is cleaner and way more fun if it explodes...
18:56:16  <Ryand-Smith> LNG or gasoline?
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18:57:41  <aber> ahh, had to wiki that. LNG :)
18:58:10  <Ryand-Smith> LNG is nice to make clean yes
19:11:03  <andythenorth> FIRS 0.1.1 is released
19:11:17  <andythenorth> so I've shipped something, now can I go and argue with the artists?
19:11:21  <andythenorth> :P
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19:33:51  <DJ_Nekkid> yey, KillBill vol.1 on TV :D
19:37:09  <Jolteon> ORLY?
19:37:22  <Rubidium> NOTV!
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19:43:36  <sparr> with only low-speed trains, trucks will almost always win a rating war, no?
19:44:03  <frosch123> then use ships
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19:45:55  <sparr> ships aren't very useful in most situations
19:46:36  <andythenorth> ships are rubbish
19:46:40  <andythenorth> they can't go on train tracks
19:46:47  <andythenorth> they can't go on roads
19:46:49  <andythenorth> they can't fly
19:46:56  <andythenorth> *stupid* ships :P
19:47:08  <andythenorth> lets cut them out of the game.  we could fit more trains in that way
19:47:26  <Singaporekid> we could fit the trains on the ships
19:47:29  <andythenorth> someone told me recently OTTD is a train game anyway
19:47:41  <andythenorth> new track type: 'ships'
19:48:00  <sparr> you know that's not what i meant
19:48:07  <Singaporekid> I would play with that grf
19:48:15  <Rubidium> 10:24 < Ammler> someone is banned from openttd
19:48:20  <andythenorth> 5mph, it's a bridge that only draws  sprites under the train, sprites are 'train ferry'
19:50:18  <Rubidium> ships have an insane parallel loading capability
19:50:51  <andythenorth> sparr: I know that's not what you meant ;)
19:51:01  <Rubidium> <- they're pretty useful
19:54:17  <andythenorth> he, my games are almost orthogonal to the one in that screenshot
19:55:27  <sparr> Rubidium: they are useful if you are near water, which is not usually
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19:57:43  <Rubidium> andythenorth: my goal was to move a million pieces of cargo per year
19:58:13  <andythenorth> did you achieve it?
19:58:34  <DJ_Nekkid> and on a 256^2 map?
19:58:42  <Rubidium> andythenorth: yes
19:58:47  <Rubidium> DJ_Nekkid: no, 128x128
19:58:51  <DJ_Nekkid> damn!
20:00:17  <sparr> do pax count?
20:00:58  <andythenorth> my current game: quite near water quite often :)
20:00:59  <andythenorth>
20:01:09  <Rubidium> for comparison, 1 million pieces of cargo moved per year is somewhat commun in the more recent openttdcoop games, which use a 512x1024-ish map for that
20:01:24  <Rubidium> s/commun/common/
20:02:08  <theholyduck> andythenorth, atleast you dont have creeping-networkitis
20:02:26  <theholyduck> i cant build a network anymore without planning atleast 3 lines in each direction
20:02:49  <theholyduck> and starting designing more and more shit before anything even works
20:03:13  *** ajmiles [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:03:48  <andythenorth> theholyduck: ship early, ship often
20:03:59  <andythenorth> do something, get the benefit, do some more stuff :)
20:04:05  <andythenorth> ideally using ships :P
20:04:07  <theholyduck> andythenorth, well the last time i tried that,
20:04:31  <theholyduck> i ended up with this 60x60 tile area, that was my merging point for everything
20:04:42  <theholyduck> and every time i tried to do a change, i had to spend 30 minutes fixing it
20:05:13  <theholyduck> rapidly expanding a existing network can lead to pain and suffering
20:05:36  <andythenorth> so can rapidly expanding a real business :P
20:06:10  <theholyduck> andythenorth, well, problem with ships is, they're not very cost efficent
20:06:20  <theholyduck> you can actually design a ship based system that looses you money
20:06:25  <Rubidium> just don't hurry that much; it'll probably reduce the pain and suffering of RSI and such
20:06:37  <theholyduck> wich i found out the hardway
20:06:43  <andythenorth> theholyduck: well that's just bad game tactics :)
20:06:50  <theholyduck> andythenorth, no, just ships being slow
20:07:19  <theholyduck> andythenorth, basicly, my original design called for ships getting oil from all over and bringing it to a central drop site
20:07:27  <andythenorth> my current game: trams, narrow gauge, standard gauge, ships, and some trucks somewhere
20:07:28  <andythenorth>
20:07:39  <theholyduck> but this plan actually lost money due the ships and then trains costing more to run than i earned from the oil
20:07:44  <PeterT> andythenorth: w00t
20:07:47  <PeterT> andythenorth: nice drawings
20:08:04  <theholyduck> so i had to decentralize the whole thing
20:08:18  <theholyduck> with multiple drop-points
20:08:25  <theholyduck> so that the slowness of the boats didnt kill my profit margins
20:08:48  *** Biolunar [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:09:13  <theholyduck> after that i became naturally distrustful of boats
20:10:35  <andythenorth> Ships + trucks + trams + planes.
20:10:35  <andythenorth>
20:11:00  <andythenorth> the planes fly in engineering supplies, trucks on a feeder system take them to the sand pit
20:11:05  <andythenorth> trams haul the sand to the dock
20:11:11  <theholyduck> i dont like planes, ship and trucks for 1 more reason
20:11:21  <theholyduck> its like playing connect the dots
20:11:51  <andythenorth> ??
20:11:58  <theholyduck> with planes its just, build more airports, build more planes, set up routes, and go
20:12:22  <theholyduck> theres no "creativity" invovled
20:13:00  <theholyduck> with a trains you can build complex network with signaling, schedules, priorities and what not
20:14:06  <andythenorth> theholyduck: try using multiple transport types with transfer orders
20:14:28  <andythenorth> getting your supply chain working is a whole other challenge then
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20:14:58  <theholyduck> yeah,
20:15:05  <theholyduck> but people who play planes only
20:15:06  <theholyduck> confuse me
20:15:15  <theholyduck> same with point to point train network people
20:15:15  <andythenorth> me too, but I guess they enjoy it
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20:18:25  <Terkhen> andythenorth: the Ishizuchi is missing a wagon when refitted to 4 wagons (HEQS r307):
20:19:06  <andythenorth> Terkhen: did you build HEQS yourself? :)
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20:20:30  <Terkhen> no, I downloaded a nightly just after you announced FIRS 0.1.1
20:20:36  <andythenorth> ah ok
20:20:46  <andythenorth> well I'll commit a fix now
20:21:07  <Terkhen> okay :)
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20:22:20  <andythenorth> Terkhen: the fix won't show up in the nightly yet.  You could check out and build, or I can pm you the grf
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20:23:54  <Ammler> andythenorth: or release HEQS :-)
20:24:13  <Ammler> or are there more trams to come?
20:24:29  <andythenorth> nah, I'm waiting on some more sprites for the tram wagons
20:24:40  <andythenorth> hopefully Dan MacK is sending me some :)
20:27:00  <Terkhen> I'll try to compile it :P
20:27:13  <andythenorth> do you need instructions?
20:30:23  <Terkhen> I remember seeing a howto somewhere
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20:35:49  <Terkhen> no, I can't find it
20:36:55  <andythenorth> Terkhen: checkout....  hg clone
20:37:11  <andythenorth> then 'make'
20:38:37  <Terkhen> it is already being cloned, but I thought it would need grfcodec
20:39:36  <andythenorth> ah yes, I already have all that stuff :o
20:39:39  <Ammler> Terkhen: you cygwin or mingw/msys
20:39:43  <andythenorth> I can pm you the grf
20:40:05  <Ammler> hmm, mingw/msys might not work anymore...
20:40:32  <Ammler> need*
20:41:36  <Terkhen> I'm using debian
20:42:09  <Terkhen> andythenorth: don't worry, I was thinking about setting this up already
20:42:16  <Rubidium> Terkhen: sid, testing or unstable?
20:42:21  <Rubidium> s/un//
20:42:43  <Rubidium> because in sid nforenum and grfcodec can be apt-get installed
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20:45:14  <andythenorth> meh.  no diagonal roads :(
20:45:28  <Terkhen> stable with 2.6.32 from backports, I was using testing until a few days ago when it died
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20:46:41  <Terkhen> that will be very handy :)
20:46:49  <Rubidium> it died?
20:47:31  *** PeterT_ is now known as PeterT^^
20:47:34  *** PeterT^^ is now known as PeterT_
20:47:45  <andythenorth> meh, can't bridge over stations
20:48:34  <Terkhen> just after GRUB it complained about different UUIDs, I don't remember the exact error message
20:48:40  *** PeterT_ is now known as PeterT^
20:48:45  *** PeterT^ is now known as PeterT_
20:49:00  * andythenorth tunnels under a station, against all good sense
20:49:10  <Rubidium> Terkhen: I know the ftp-master kinda died, but it doesn't look like any important packages are broken (mostly armel stuff)
20:49:40  <Rubidium> Terkhen: oh, grub not doing its thing is nasty
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20:51:52  <Terkhen> I followed a few tutorials without success before installing again, simpler when I can back up everything easily
20:52:47  <Terkhen> probably an habit picked up from trying to fix windows too many times
20:53:19  <andythenorth> this is now starting to get...complicated :P
20:53:20  <andythenorth>
20:58:29  <planetmaker> nice tunnels, andythenorth - what are they?
20:58:46  <andythenorth> probably NA Road Set I gues
20:58:47  <andythenorth> s
20:58:50  <Rubidium> stolen ofcourse!
20:58:54  <planetmaker> :-D
20:58:55  <Rubidium> :)
20:58:59  <Terkhen> andythenorth: success :)
20:59:08  <andythenorth> Terkhen: good
20:59:55  <OwenS> Such tunnels would be more awesome if we could build on them :-(
21:02:46  <andythenorth> Terkhen: how is cargo/industry-alphabetising going?
21:05:19  <Terkhen> the fund industry window is already sorted too
21:05:36  <Terkhen> cargo sorting is stopped until I recover from DST
21:09:01  <andythenorth> :)
21:09:20  <Rubidium> yay for DST saving power...
21:09:36  <Rubidium> already lost a full working day...
21:10:52  <__ln__> any unitedstatesians present?
21:11:07  <PeterT> Yes
21:11:26  <Terkhen> yeah, I doubt that whatever is saved in power makes up for making everybody feel horrible for days
21:11:51  * Terkhen suspects that tomorrow he will crawl to the kitchen for coffee again
21:12:03  <__ln__> ok; question: if you mention "Penn & Teller" to a random unitedstatesian, what's the probability that he/she won't know whom you are talking about?
21:12:19  <PeterT> who is Penn & Teller?
21:12:23  <__ln__> right
21:12:24  <PeterT> :-P
21:12:38  <OwenS> I was gonna say "I can't decide if PeterT is bullshitting or not"
21:12:39  <PeterT> magicians?
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21:12:53  <__ln__> magicians
21:12:55  <PeterT> OwenS: No, he isn't
21:13:00  <PeterT> lol
21:13:07  <PeterT> looks interesting
21:13:26  <PeterT> why would a magician need a MySpace?
21:13:36  <OwenS> They have Twitters too..
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21:18:38  <Belugas> bye all
21:18:42  * andythenorth uses trams for everything
21:18:47  <Rubidium> night Belugas
21:18:55  <PeterT> good night, Belugas
21:18:59  <Belugas> night too Rubidium :)
21:19:06  <Belugas> and u2 PeterT
21:19:09  * Belugas is off
21:19:13  <PeterT> :-)
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21:21:32  * andythenorth needs some smaller boats
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21:22:45  <planetmaker> OpenGFX also needs some smaller boats
21:28:17  <Terkhen> the utility vessel is not small enough?
21:28:26  <andythenorth> not for delivering engineering supplies
21:28:41  <andythenorth> I have smaller boats planned but not drawn
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21:29:46  <andythenorth> hmm
21:30:00  <andythenorth> I didn't finish the random production change code for primary industries in FIRS
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21:30:19  <andythenorth> turns out that constant stable primary industry production is kind of fun :o
21:40:26  <planetmaker> andythenorth: make it a feature :-)
21:40:34  <planetmaker> might be nice for scenarios
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22:09:24  <Terkhen> good night
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22:16:27  <OwenS`Phone> Is it not my year? Ata errors...
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22:22:35  <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: i've uploaded an attempt at fixing...
22:24:02  <Ammler> stuck trains patch?
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22:24:48  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that one
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22:30:07  * PeterT is away: Away
22:30:33  <PeterT> Sorry people
22:30:52  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, you should be.
22:32:57  <OwenS`Phone> Fuck me. OTHER HDD HAS DIED. Seriously!
22:33:28  <OwenS`Phone> This kind of thing... Does not happen...
22:34:10  <OwenS`Phone> So: tomorrow order an Hdd overnight. Then investigate Hitachi hddwarranties
22:34:11  <__ln__> Oh it does. That's why important data is backed up.
22:34:21  <OwenS`Phone> It is :)
22:34:42  <OwenS`Phone> Just the redundant disks died 1 mo apart
22:35:58  <__ln__> I've been thinking about a 3ware raid card for home use, but it's expensiveish.
22:36:30  <__ln__> And yes, it isn't a substitute for backups.
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22:37:38  <OwenS`Phone> Linux softraid. Faster, cheaper, wont kill your data when it dies
22:38:29  <OwenS`Phone> The amount of times ive heard of raid cards killing data has permanently dissuade me from them
22:38:44  <Eddi|zuHause> have a redundant raid card :)
22:38:49  <__ln__> It's a mess when your boot partition gets broken in a software raid.
22:39:08  <OwenS`Phone> Also, hard raid uses pfopetietry disk formats
22:39:36  <__ln__> Besides, Linux softraid doesn't work on Windows 7, to which I switched to two days ago.
22:39:40  <OwenS`Phone> I have cron rsync boot between the devices
22:40:24  <OwenS`Phone> My ideal would be Solaris + zfx + raid z
22:40:30  <__ln__> OwenS`Phone: So you rsync corrupted data from failing disk to another?
22:41:20  <OwenS`Phone> Actually, /boot a folder in the raid copied on to the actual partitoons
22:42:50  <OwenS`Phone> Zfs is better. No faffimng, just one volume
22:44:25  <__ln__> Have you tried recovering from a boot partition (and disk) failure? The BIOS boots from a physical disk, so mirroring doesn't help at that point.
22:45:49  <OwenS`Phone> With zfs both drives get propeely configured for grub to boot from
22:49:05  *** Rexxars [~rexxars@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:53:26  <__ln__> Still, at minimum, you'll need some manual work to make your system boot from a non-default disk.
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22:59:02  <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: shouldn't you put /boot on a different disk then, so you have at least a minimal system when everything goes wrong?
22:59:45  <Eddi|zuHause> the kernel doesn't change that often, you can back that up in other ways
23:02:59  <__ln__> Maybe... Though that asymptotically approaches a "mess".
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