Log for #openttd on 30th March 2010:
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02:17:59  <Eddi|zuHause> so... apparently OpenSSL beat us for 1.0 :p
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05:38:55  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: who cares?
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06:13:23  <Terkhen> good morning
06:14:45  <Rubidium> aloha Terkhen
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06:33:03  <planetmaker> moin moin
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06:43:31  * MeCooL Hi all,(F)
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08:20:47  <Cybertinus> hello
08:20:50  <Cybertinus> little question:
08:21:09  <Cybertinus> I just installed OpenTTD 0.7.5 on my English Windows 7 laptop
08:21:35  <Cybertinus> I live in The Netherlands, so I've set it up to have Dutch as the first language
08:21:59  <Cybertinus> but I really hate Dutch software, but oTTD starts in Dutch
08:22:10  <Cybertinus> how can I force it to start with an English GUI?
08:22:13  <blathijs> Cybertinus: You can change that in the game options somewhere
08:22:30  <blathijs> And it should remember the setting afterwards
08:22:36  <Yexo> why do you set it up to use Dutch as first language if you don't want the software in dutch?
08:23:11  <blathijs> Yexo: Because Windows isn't software? :-)
08:23:11  <Cybertinus> Yexo: because I want numbers and stuff in Dutch (you write a number like 1,000.00 in English. In Dutch it's 1.000,00 ;) )
08:23:35  <Yexo> ah, fair point
08:24:20  <Cybertinus> the question remains: where in the game options? :). I've already searched the game options, but I couldn't find it
08:24:39  <Cybertinus> I could only find the town-names, and that was set to English (original) already
08:25:05  <Yexo> directly below that
08:25:08  <Rubidium> you can find town names, but can find the language setting?
08:25:28  <Rubidium> the latter is obviously "can't"
08:25:40  <Cybertinus> damn, I really need a new pair of glasses or something :S
08:25:48  <Cybertinus> you are absolutelly right Yexo
08:25:50  <Cybertinus> thnx :)
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08:47:27  <peter1138> poor newzbin
08:51:55  <fjb> What newzbin?
08:52:01  <peter1138>
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09:05:19  <Rubidium> so, next on the list: Microsoft, Yahoo and Google?
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09:09:32  <fjb> No, they are too big and have too much money for lawyers.
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13:08:11  <Belugas> good day
13:10:16  <DanMacK> Howdy
13:12:53  <andythenorth> my trams keep getting killed by trains :|
13:15:02  <andythenorth> hmm
13:15:16  <Terkhen> the big train eats the little ones?
13:15:56  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that is a big problem with articulated road vehicles
13:16:11  <andythenorth> trams and standard RVs can't share bridges.  Is that by design, or just a limitation in the map or something?
13:16:34  <Eddi|zuHause> they can, you have to overbuild the bridge head with the appropriate road type
13:17:56  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: are you sure?
13:18:01  <Eddi|zuHause> at most it's a problematic UI, but not a game limitation
13:18:12  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, i'm sure
13:20:04  <andythenorth> I don't seem to be able to do it :o
13:20:12  <Terkhen> you don't seem to be able to rebuild it with a bridge of the same existing type, though
13:23:15  <roboboy> gnight
13:24:08  <planetmaker> andythenorth, ctrl+drag road onto the bridge ramp
13:24:12  <planetmaker> (or tram tracks)
13:24:19  <planetmaker> building a new bridge fails iirc.
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13:33:04  <peter1138> SMACK YOUR BITCH UP
13:34:03  <Rubidium> peter1138: wrong channel?
13:34:14  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: why ctrl?
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13:34:48  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, hm... I wrote by memory. Might just be click+drag
13:34:54  <enr1x> hi guys
13:37:26  <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: thanks for the update (stuck_trains) :-)
13:37:58  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: afair ctrl toggles bulldozer when building road or rail
13:38:06  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, you're right
13:38:11  <Terkhen> building road|tram the first road bit of the bridge works too
13:38:17  <Terkhen> on*
13:38:45  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: build the tram/road on the bridge head only, do not drag it over the bridge
13:40:10  <planetmaker> I always draged it up the ramp :-)
13:40:18  <planetmaker> yes, but only ramp :-)
13:42:05  <andythenorth> seems to work
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13:45:43  <andythenorth> it's 1937 and /me needs a bigger airport... :o
13:45:54  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... 200MB text file, compressed with bzip2 gives 5MB, compressed with lzma gives 2MB...
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13:48:09  <Rubidium> impressive... though unlikely it's a trend that lzma compressed stuff is 60% smaller than bz2
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13:50:10  <andythenorth> yay.  Pikka just gave me a dakota
13:50:24  <Eddi|zuHause> he is so kind :)
13:50:39  <andythenorth> he's a gent
13:51:29  * andythenorth considers changing airport intro dates and re-compiling :o
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14:07:50  <planetmaker> <Tycoon> *** fonsinchen has left the game (general error) <-- what does that indicate?!
14:08:21  *** devilsadvocate [~devilsadv@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:08:36  <planetmaker> I've never seen a "general error"
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14:09:52  <fonsinchen> more specifically it's "dbg: [net] [client] received invalid packet type 0"
14:10:23  <fonsinchen> (both client and server with --enable-desync-debug=2)
14:10:33  <fonsinchen> let's see ...
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14:17:46  <fonsinchen> I guess there is something wrong with the desync debugging. I can connect if I use a binary without desync debugging
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14:31:03  <Rubidium> fonsinchen: nothing's wrong; it's designed that way. With desync debugging at that level the random seed is checked every tick instead of every (few hundred IIRC) ticks
14:31:19  <Rubidium> or at least something related to that
14:31:36  <fonsinchen> but why can't I connect?
14:32:19  <fonsinchen> Maybe I'm misunderstanding something.
14:32:22  <Rubidium> no idea; the 'M' issue of the binaries?
14:32:35  <fonsinchen> No, it's well past that stage
14:32:45  <fonsinchen> I even see the map for a fraction of a second
14:33:02  <fonsinchen> then I get that "invalid packet type 0"
14:33:11  <fonsinchen> that's from network_client.cpp
14:33:25  <fonsinchen> line 983
14:33:35  <fonsinchen> obviously the server sends something it shouldn't
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14:33:47  <Rubidium> or it doesn't send enough!
14:33:51  <fonsinchen> and it doesn't even matter which game I load
14:33:54  <Juli_kuli> hi
14:33:54  <fonsinchen> ah
14:34:00  <fonsinchen> .... the version
14:34:18  <Juli_kuli> where can speak german?
14:34:24  <fonsinchen> it's supposed to be longer than 15 bytes but the server only has 15 bytes
14:34:29  <fonsinchen> could that be the reason?
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14:35:23  <planetmaker> that wasn't patient
14:36:15  <Rubidium> fonsinchen: what packet is the troublesome one?
14:36:59  <fonsinchen> I'm going to recheck with more debug messages
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14:37:57  <fonsinchen> lots of 12, one 15, one 16, then one 0
14:38:11  <Rubidium> odd... it works fine for me
14:38:28  <Rubidium> ./configure --enable-desync-debug=2 && make
14:38:42  <Rubidium> bin/openttd -D vs bin/openttd -n localhost
14:39:11  <Ammler> maybe too many packages for the internet?
14:39:27  <Rubidium> Ammler: then the internet is horribly broken
14:39:28  <fonsinchen> why is packet type 0 actually invalid?
14:40:21  <Rubidium> type 0 is PACKET_SERVER_FULL
14:40:30  <fonsinchen> so it should be valid
14:40:35  <Rubidium> which is kinda very odd to get once joined
14:40:40  <fonsinchen> even if it's wrong in this case
14:42:20  <Rubidium> the *other* reason could be a length 2 package in which case the type is 'beyond' the bounds and 0 is returned (and the connection is closed)
14:42:42  <Rubidium> i.e. type is "valid", but the connection has been closed because the packet itself wasn't valid
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14:45:56  <Rubidium> nevertheless, I advice to use -ddesync=2 to get command log + savegames to create a locally reproducable case.
14:46:33  <Rubidium> because without a reproducable case the chance of actually finding the bugger is near zero
14:46:56  <Rubidium> and the shorter the reproduced case, the faster you can find and fix it
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14:47:05  <fonsinchen> autosave 150 can reliably be used to reproduce the desync
14:47:34  <Rubidium> load that in the server, then join after N days reliably desyncs?
14:47:55  <fonsinchen> I can't connect to the server. I always get the invalid packet
14:48:00  <Rubidium> that's good news; allows you to test locally
14:48:01  <fonsinchen> yes
14:48:27  <fonsinchen> can I test that locally if I can't connect?
14:48:29  <Ammler> and locally you don't get that packet error?
14:48:33  <Rubidium> --enable-desync-debug=2 isn't really meant for debugging desyncs over distances
14:48:54  <Ammler> fonsinchen: start a server locally and connect
14:48:59  <fonsinchen> I can't
14:49:09  <Ammler> why?
14:49:15  <Rubidium> fonsinchen: you can load the autosave locally in a server compiled with the same settings and all; if you use the same binary for server and client you are sure that you run the same thing
14:49:59  <Ammler> hopefully, autosave150 is before the cause of desync ;-)
14:50:32  <Rubidium> Ammler: if you can reliably reproduce it by loading that savegame, then it's from after the cause (or there are more causes)
14:51:16  <fonsinchen> seems it doesn't desync like that
14:51:48  <fonsinchen> can I make it load a savegame and immediately pause it?
14:52:10  <fonsinchen> Interestingly it lets me connect now
14:52:14  <Rubidium> a server? Yes, just set min players to 1 in a dedicated server
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14:55:30  <Ammler> the server is quite at max usage
14:55:38  <Ammler> that might be the cause of those package lost
14:55:57  <Rubidium> Ammler: TCP does not cause lost packets
14:56:38  <Rubidium> it knows two states: "connection and no packets are lost" and "no connection"
15:01:04  <fonsinchen> grrr, no desync when running it locally
15:01:22  <Eddi|zuHause> there are more TCP states than that :)
15:02:05  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: for Ammler that's "too much information"
15:04:03  <Eddi|zuHause>
15:07:09  <Ammler> indeed :-)
15:11:28  <fonsinchen> On the openttdcoop dev server we had two desyncs for different people at roughly the same game time
15:11:40  <fonsinchen> (second one was after I reloaded the autosave)
15:11:50  <fonsinchen> I can't reproduce that here
15:12:11  <Rubidium> the time is crucial... sometimes to the tick crucial
15:12:44  <fonsinchen> Maybe it has logged something interesting ...
15:12:50  <Rubidium> i.e. hack the server to pause after 'n' ticks, then let the client join and then unpause
15:13:13  <Rubidium> with time I mean join time (ofcourse)
15:13:45  <Rubidium> also, do you know what kind of computer the desyncing person had (in the second case)
15:14:13  <Rubidium> because if it's a big endian machine, then debugging will be even nastier
15:16:17  <fonsinchen> they were both desynced
15:18:18  <fonsinchen> At least one is an Intel CPU
15:19:23  <fonsinchen> I'll try if it desyncs me reliably
15:19:33  <Rubidium> okay, that makes an endianness desync less likely
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15:20:14  <Rubidium> is he gonna leave quickly or not... that's the question :)
15:20:45  <Rubidium> fonsinchen: which cargodist patch (r195??.patch) does the server use?
15:22:20  <Rubidium> are the desyncees Windows users and the people that stay Linuxy (or at least GCC) users?
15:22:25  <fonsinchen> the lastest one
15:22:26  * welshdragon holds
15:23:05  <fonsinchen> I think they all run Windows, but I run Linux and get desynced, too
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15:23:39  <Rubidium> okay, so different STL is less likely
15:23:47  <fonsinchen> Well, it doesn't desync me now
15:24:15  <Rubidium> cargopacket.cpp:~50 seems to be only removing indentation
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15:25:10  <OwenS> andythenorth: Was it glx who was working on the "close industries allowed" stuff with you? Did that go into trunk?
15:25:39  <andythenorth> I think frosch just removed the silly check in the end
15:26:32  <OwenS> OK, just checking that was how I ended up with an orphaned "STR_CONFIG_SETTING_SAMEINDCLOSE" in Progsigs
15:26:47  * OwenS prepares to investigate git log
15:31:41  <OwenS> resolving deltas is slow on an atom..
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15:41:04  <Rubidium> bah... got lost in the saveload/threading code of cargodist... better luck next time I guess
15:42:24  <fonsinchen> saveload and threading are fairly different things
15:42:50  <fonsinchen> I only save/load the starting state of every link graph component
15:45:37  <Rubidium> and some part of the game's settings I think, which kinda puzzles me
15:48:35  <fonsinchen> yes, that's important
15:48:49  <fonsinchen> the link graph component cannot read the game settings as those might change
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15:49:00  <fonsinchen> so they make a copy before they run
15:49:06  <fonsinchen> and that copy must be saved
15:49:35  <Rubidium> it's just code looks odds and such
15:50:06  <fonsinchen> Why is that odd?
15:52:19  <fonsinchen> OK, I see why that is odd
15:52:37  <fonsinchen> but everything calculated there should be static
15:52:57  <fonsinchen> if it fails once it should fail all the time
15:54:42  <Rubidium> e.g. I would assume, given the name, that GetLinkGraphComponentDesc would give me something, the same thing every time (given the workings of the already existing functions). However it horribly breaks if it's called a second time
15:55:04  <fonsinchen> It breaks?
15:55:06  <fonsinchen> How?
15:55:37  <fonsinchen> Oh, it breaks ... it makes two copies of the linkgraph settings then
15:56:31  <OwenS> "the CC environment variable is set, but it doesn't seem to be a gcc binary. please redefine the CC/CXX environment to a gcc binary" <-- Why force GCC? :-(
15:56:47  <fonsinchen> There should be a "saveloads.clear()" or it shouldn't be stati
15:57:24  <OwenS> Oh, "checking build system type... /usr/bin/cc unusable" spotted. Probably still have the buggy linker... hmm...
15:57:58  <fonsinchen> but how could that ever work out?
15:58:13  <fonsinchen> It shouldn't be able to load something like this
15:58:21  <Rubidium> OwenS: anything gcc-alike should work
15:58:44  <Rubidium> OwenS: the rest likely fails to compile OpenTTD anyway
15:59:18  <OwenS> Rubidium: I'll have to test it when I get this upgrade installed (Some package conflict...)
15:59:41  <Rubidium> fonsinchen: the clear and possibly a bit explaining how the function is supposed to be used
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16:00:13  <fonsinchen> It doesn't do anything evil because it's only called once.
16:00:45  <fonsinchen> The misbehaviour is still not intended. saveloads should be cleared in every run
16:00:47  <Rubidium> fonsinchen: it makes me go.. WTF?!? is going on here
16:01:06  <__ln__> Belugas:
16:01:17  <Rubidium> and that is usually a clear sign that something is (at least) fishy
16:01:21  <Belugas> mmh?
16:01:35  <fonsinchen> better yet, the whole calculation should only run once.
16:02:33  <Rubidium> nevertheless, I've got more important things to do now
16:03:37  <fonsinchen>
16:03:42  <fonsinchen> this is how it was meant
16:04:01  <fonsinchen> sorry if that bothered you.
16:05:07  *** devilsadvocate [~devilsadv@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:07:08  <orudge> mIRC really needs some sort of highlight-exclusion. If anybody's ever highlighted me over the past month or so, it probably got lost due to all the OwenS highlights :p
16:07:37  <OwenS> hehe :P
16:08:16  <OwenS> I guess #openttdcoop is worse considering my ingame nick? :p
16:08:48  *** Grelouk [~Grelouk@] has joined #openttd
16:08:57  <orudge> well, yes, but people tend not to talk to me in there at least ;)
16:09:01  <orudge> well, not unless I say something myself
16:09:06  <OwenS> Thats true
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16:41:06  <OwenS> Hmm thats interesting, "SunOS Asuka 5.11 snv_121 i86pc i386 i86pc Solaris", Sun OS 5.11? So this is officially Solaris 11 :O
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17:03:02  <Fri13> Hi, I have tried to find out from wiki is it possible to transferr cargo from train to truck?
17:03:31  <planetmaker> yes
17:03:42  <planetmaker> build one common station and use transfer orders
17:04:05  <Fri13> planetmaker: common station?
17:04:33  <planetmaker> truck and train station adjacent to eachother. So that in the station name both the truck and the train symbol are shown
17:04:34  <Fri13> planetmaker: you mean like trainstation and truckstation next to each other?
17:04:38  <planetmaker> yes
17:04:58  <Fri13> planetmaker: must be exactly next to each other and not just the area?
17:05:12  <planetmaker> yes and no :-)
17:05:18  <SpComb> or use cargodist
17:05:25  <SpComb> it's more yay
17:05:33  <planetmaker> SpComb, it's more desync
17:05:41  <SpComb> not in singleplayer
17:05:56  <planetmaker> Fri13, you can build them apart, but they must be the same station. Not two different ones
17:06:04  <Fri13> Okay, I do not think it now because there is coming bigger multiplayer in later this week.
17:06:10  <planetmaker> They're automatically the same, if you place them exactly next to eachother.
17:06:26  <SpComb> I've played cargodist just fine in multiplayer without any desync issues :(
17:06:37  <planetmaker> If you don't want that, use distant join by ctrl+clicking when building the 2nd station (which might be the train or truck station)
17:06:43  <planetmaker> SpComb, we don't.
17:06:44  <Fri13> planetmaker: so there is no need to be then exact to giver order to right one, it gets automatically routed to correct then?
17:07:03  <planetmaker> Fri13, say again?
17:07:14  <planetmaker> A truck will never go to a train station
17:07:20  <planetmaker> A train never to a truck station.
17:07:39  <Fri13> planetmaker: If I place trainstation and truckstation next each other. Can I give order for truck to unload to the trainstation and it still understands it goes to truck station without error message?
17:07:46  <planetmaker> Ever tried to give orders to a vehicle to go to a station which it cannot go to as it's a station of a different vehicle type?
17:07:47  <Fri13> planetmaker: I mean only the commands.
17:07:52  <SpComb> Fri13: there is only one station
17:07:56  <planetmaker> yes, Fri13 no problem
17:07:59  <SpComb> just with multiple facilities
17:08:22  <Fri13> Okay. So the station name sign is "the station"?
17:08:28  <planetmaker> yes
17:08:49  <Fri13> Okay. That helped a lot.
17:08:55  <planetmaker> vehicles will go to whatever place suits them, no micro management necessary
17:09:06  <Fri13> Now I am going trough the train signs tutorial to understand that.
17:09:23  <planetmaker> hehe. :-)
17:09:56  <Fri13> btw, openttd wiki is one best ones what I have come to by... Just brillian.
17:09:58  <Fri13> +t
17:10:18  <planetmaker> :-)
17:10:51  <planetmaker> If you want to read about the insane stuff (as some call it) also have a look at
17:11:07  <planetmaker> But make sure you read some at the OpenTTD wiki before ;-)
17:11:14  <Fri13> Oh... one wish what I have in mind and I am not sure can it be found already. But is it possible to close windows otherway than clickin the X on them?
17:11:24  <planetmaker> yes. Hit del
17:11:38  <planetmaker> or ctrl+del for closing all
17:11:54  <Fri13> Does del close the one what is last opened or what mouse cursor is hovering?
17:12:06  <planetmaker> the active one
17:12:15  <Fri13> There is no way to get such function to own shortcut? Like middle mouse button?
17:12:30  <planetmaker> no configuration of that behaviour possible, sorry
17:12:42  <Fri13> Well... It is little extreme wish ;-)
17:12:55  <planetmaker> not really. But it's simply not done (yet)
17:12:55  <Fri13> Just use to such in KDE SC.
17:13:30  <Fri13> used
17:13:40  <planetmaker> so am I, yes
17:14:51  <Fri13> Oh, was there anykind undo if mistakenly destroyes example the airport and then the city council does not allow it to be build back? ;-D
17:15:06  <planetmaker> there isn't, there won't and there cannot be.
17:15:09  <Fri13> Otherway than just gain fame etc.
17:15:22  <planetmaker> for exactly that reason ^ :-)
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17:16:08  <Fri13> planetmaker: It is just littlebit hard when mistakenly deletes intercontinental airport when meant to delete road/station next to it :-D
17:16:30  <planetmaker> Fri13, then don't use the dynamite tool but use the bulldozer tool
17:16:37  <planetmaker> such mistakes cannot happen then.
17:16:41  <Fri13> Oh...
17:16:55  <Ammler> there is autosave
17:17:01  <planetmaker> also that :-)
17:17:25  <planetmaker> other than that: In reality there's no undo after a bomb explosion, either :-(
17:17:37  <planetmaker> So the game is quite realistic in this point ;-)
17:17:44  <Belugas> booooo
17:17:52  * planetmaker waves merrily at Belugas
17:17:59  <Ammler> SevenDays or how was it called
17:18:16  <Belugas> what's left of Belugas you mean...
17:18:21  <Belugas> total wreck
17:18:22  <planetmaker> :-O
17:20:28  * peter1138 hugs Belugas
17:20:52  <Belugas> furrrrrrr furrrrrrrr
17:21:37  * Belugas has a big sheet of paper sticked to the wall beside him, saying : "NO, LATER"
17:21:50  <planetmaker> :-P
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17:39:31  * andythenorth admits defeat.  bridges are just safer than level crossings :P
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17:53:47  <peter1138> new disaster: bridge collapse
17:54:07  *** De_Ghosty [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:54:11  <fjb> Earth quake.
17:54:41  <OwenS> 1 collapse every 100 years per bridge on average?
17:55:10  <__ln__> There could indeed be more *cough* realistic disasters in the game.
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17:55:39  <fjb> What? You call UFOs not realistic? :)
17:56:10  <__ln__> Random derailing, random driving against red signal.
17:56:38  <OwenS> Belugas will dislike your herecy :P
17:57:03  <fjb> And trains should derail if they catch a bigger road vehicle.
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17:58:29  <OwenS> Random driving against red signal? Only before ~1985 :P
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17:58:53  <__ln__> OwenS: What's magical about 1985?
17:59:12  <OwenS> __ln__: most railroads had Automatic Train Protection of some form by then :p
17:59:37  <__ln__> in some country maybe.
18:00:14  <OwenS> Or would sets have to say "This loco has good train protection"? :p
18:00:44  <__ln__> Why not. :)
18:01:12  <OwenS> How would it deal with things like the Eurostar, which doesn't on some rails? :P
18:02:51  <__ln__> That would be way too much realism.
18:03:54  <__ln__> I'd better say that in google-French too: Ce serait ainsi un réalisme trop.
18:04:58  * OwenS ponders the babelfish-English(google-French) version
18:06:10  <OwenS> "It would be thus a realism too."
18:06:51  <fjb> Babelfish is better than google.
18:07:48  <OwenS> Babelfish-French of __ln__'s original sentance is "Ce serait trop de réalisme". Which I must say looks  a lot more like I'd expect from my limited french knowledge
18:08:37  <OwenS> Babelfishing it back gives "It too much would be realism", which is at least understandable
18:09:46  <fjb> Tranlating is one of the worst google services. I don't know why so many people are using it.
18:10:03  <OwenS> Because Google are "awesome" and Yahoo/Altavista "suck"?
18:10:18  <OwenS> Yahoo at least pay experts Systran to do it
18:10:25  <fjb> Who remembers Altavista?
18:10:29  <OwenS> I do :p
18:10:39  <OwenS> Everyone remembers Yahoo though, and its now
18:10:54  <OwenS> (Heck, Yahoo! have been running TV adverts here lately!)
18:11:15  <fjb> They must really have some problems then.
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18:17:50  * frosch123 remembers astalavista
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18:36:54  <OwenS> Hehe Astalavista... I remember mistyping Altavista as that once...
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18:59:47  <Nite_Owl> Hello all
19:01:07  <Nite_Owl> Is it normal for the default engines and wagons to show up even if you have a newgrf train set loaded?
19:02:29  <Nite_Owl> I do not remember this behavior happening in the past - the defaults were usually overridden by the newgrf.
19:03:00  <R-Blade> hello
19:03:22  <Nite_Owl> Hello R-Blade
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19:15:24  <Nite_Owl> I do have the multiple newgrf engine settings turned on by the way
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19:19:48  <R-Blade> Nite_Owl what's the problem
19:20:16  <Nite_Owl> scroll up - it is all there
19:20:22  <R-Blade> ...
19:20:38  <R-Blade> I got hit by a lagstream, so I can't see anything from 10 minuets ago
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19:22:01  <Nite_Owl> I thought a train set newgrf would override the default engines and wagons so that they would not show up in the availability lists
19:22:37  <R-Blade> not all sets do this
19:22:47  <planetmaker> Nite_Owl: it's an option for newgrfs
19:22:50  * andythenorth wonders if newgrf can control the map's ground tiles....
19:22:55  <R-Blade> planetmaker: hivemind
19:23:11  <R-Blade> andythenorth yes it can if I read what you said correctly
19:23:19  <R-Blade> see the Japan Track Set or the North American City Cet
19:23:28  * andythenorth sees the specs :P
19:23:55  <Nite_Owl> Ahh - so if the newgrf is old (which it is) then it would not contain the proper NFO code to do the override thing
19:23:56  <planetmaker> andythenorth: ground tiles or map gen sprites? ;-)
19:23:58  <R-Blade> I know NARS and the UK set do that, but NARS and UK sets are total replacement sets.
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19:24:06  <R-Blade> Nite_Owl yeah
19:24:13  <planetmaker> Nite_Owl: I assume overriding was possible always.
19:24:32  <R-Blade> Some sets (I think CC set is guilty of this) doesn't do this
19:24:37  <R-Blade> 2cc*
19:24:52  <Nite_Owl> it is the US Transition Set which always did override the defaults in the past....
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19:25:39  <planetmaker> R-Blade: the 2cctrainset is quite new
19:25:44  <planetmaker> and it does override default engines
19:25:51  * andythenorth can't see a way to modify ground tiles (except for stations, industries and buildings)
19:26:00  <planetmaker> but sets have at least as of 2004 been doing that
19:26:06  <R-Blade> Oh, I thought it didn't overide the cars, my fault
19:26:26  <Nite_Owl> but the source code has changed quite a bit since that set was last updated so it is possible that whatever override code it might have had no longer works properly
19:26:29  <R-Blade> since I tend to run 2cc and NARS together so I can make subways and intercity american engines
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19:27:03  <planetmaker> Nite_Owl: which train set(s) is it you use?
19:27:26  <Nite_Owl> US Transition Set
19:27:59  <planetmaker> uh...
19:27:59  <R-Blade> the old one, not NARS
19:28:13  <Nite_Owl> that was a rather nasty net split
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19:28:45  <R-Blade> It is annoying that NARS doesn't have all the US transition engines, if it had HH8 as an option for the AEM 7 it would be grand
19:28:55  <Nite_Owl> US Set - not NARS
19:29:32  <planetmaker> R-Blade: ask authors for permission and compose a new set with the engines you need :-)
19:29:34  <Nite_Owl> or Non NARS US Set - however you want to call it]
19:30:03  <R-Blade> I would call it NARS Plus, since it would be adding the early electrics and middle diesels from USA renewal
19:30:20  <R-Blade> (I love those streamliners, even if my GG1s are better)
19:30:22  <Nite_Owl> I can deal with it but it does make for a longer list of wagons and engines
19:30:59  <R-Blade> long sets are perfect though, you can have funny things like a 20 car double decker pulled by a GG1, pushed by an AEM 7 and in the middle an HH8
19:32:05  <Nite_Owl> I will just chalk it up to older NFO code vs. newer trunk code
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19:33:25  <planetmaker> Nite_Owl: it shouldn't. Otherwise it's a bug ;-)
19:34:08  <Nite_Owl> in the past the override default engines and wagons code in that set did just that - it overrode the default engines and wagons
19:34:52  <Nite_Owl> even the 'resetengines' console command does not remove the default stuff
19:36:43  <Nite_Owl> Hmmm - maybe a combination of newer trunk code and the OpenGfx's ?
19:36:45  <planetmaker> Hm... that will need looking at :-)
19:36:51  <planetmaker> OpenGFX has no influence on that
19:37:00  <planetmaker> it cannot. It must not
19:37:00  <Nite_Owl> okay
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19:37:15  <planetmaker> Otherwise multiplayer could desync
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19:37:38  <planetmaker> hm... is it in our old coop newgrf pack? I assume so.
19:37:47  <Nite_Owl> yes
19:38:06  <Nite_Owl> let me check the version number
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19:38:53  <Nite_Owl> v0.87.4d I believe
19:39:16  <planetmaker> let me see. OpenTTD I assume? Some RC or recent nightly?
19:39:38  <Nite_Owl> r19523
19:40:06  <planetmaker> North American transition trainset? Hm... I don't have it :-(
19:40:22  <Nite_Owl> once you get to around 1926 the default stuff shows up
19:40:44  <Nite_Owl> the US Set it self only starts in 1920
19:40:51  <Ammler>  usset is in the pack
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19:41:29  <planetmaker> <-- that?
19:41:54  <planetmaker> Ammler: I don't have it in my newgrf list...
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19:42:09  <Nite_Owl> that is the one
19:42:14  <Ammler> I can't show you public link anymore
19:42:34  <Nite_Owl> it is the only train set I have in the game
19:43:57  <Nite_Owl> I only ever use one train set at a time but do use multiple road vehicle sets
19:44:20  <planetmaker> well. It became safer to use more train sets. But usually it doesn't make sense
19:44:45  <Nite_Owl> my thoughts exactly
19:45:22  <planetmaker> Nite_Owl: I don't have the default trains showing... (testing temperate climate)
19:45:29  <planetmaker> 1960 as starting year
19:45:58  <Nite_Owl> Then I wonder if it might be something I did like going out and modifying the game in the scenario editor
19:46:44  <Nite_Owl> or some other newgrf causing it to happen
19:46:52  <planetmaker> how does the reset engines command work?
19:47:02  <planetmaker> Nite_Owl: I thought it's the only one?
19:47:10  <planetmaker> Or do you have old wagons new cargos or alike?
19:47:33  <Nite_Owl> neither - I changed no newgrfs at any time
19:48:02  <Ammler> reset_engine is like apply in the newgrf gui
19:48:05  <Nite_Owl> no old wagons - new cargoes either
19:48:46  <Ammler> Nite_Owl: try with the openttdcoop info grf
19:48:55  <planetmaker> hm, Ammler ?
19:49:02  <Nite_Owl> experimentation time for me then to see if it is a newgrf conflict
19:49:14  <Ammler> I assume, he uses the ecs adapter
19:49:22  <Nite_Owl> I do use a lot of other newgrfs
19:49:34  <Ammler> Nite_Owl: do you use the usset ecs adapter?
19:49:46  <Nite_Owl> the ecs adapter is not needed with that version
19:49:54  <Nite_Owl> nor do I use ecs
19:49:59  <Ammler> oh, ok...
19:50:13  <Ammler> post your list :-)
19:50:33  <planetmaker> screenshot :-)
19:51:28  <Nite_Owl> mostly infrastructure and such I will have to play around with it
19:51:45  <Nite_Owl> I do appreciate the help though
19:52:20  <andythenorth> Nite_Owl: did you add a train newgrf and then remove it?
19:52:28  <Nite_Owl> I have no place to post it
19:52:41  <Nite_Owl> no - no newgrf changes
19:52:47  <Ammler> maybe the creator of usset just appended the ecs adapter
19:52:52  <Ammler> could explain it
19:53:29  <Ammler> hmm, not sure :-)
19:53:35  <Nite_Owl> the ecs adapter was added into the nfo code of newgrf way back when
19:54:26  <planetmaker> hm... us set is under the GNU license. With those wagons... yummi :-)
19:54:29  <Nite_Owl> v0.87.4d includes the ecs adapter in it
19:55:32  <Nite_Owl> Oracle (the original coder of the set) is back around and is working on an update. At least that is the last news I heard about it.
19:55:47  <planetmaker> sounds like good news :-)
19:56:34  <planetmaker> Might be that the 2cctrainset could then borrow a few wagons :-) At least I can recommend that :-)
19:56:53  <planetmaker> hm, yes, license and credit information are given, so... :-)
19:57:06  <Nite_Owl> It is my personal favorite set so I keep a good eye on it
19:57:48  <Nite_Owl> the documentation is excellent as well
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19:58:05  <planetmaker> yup indeed.
19:58:22  <planetmaker> hm, I wonder why that set got forgotten a bit...
19:58:25  <frosch123> Nite_Owl: everytime you add a new newgrfs it reserves its engine ids. that also applies to scenarios, i.e. when you removed a newgrf from a scenario
19:58:28  <planetmaker> Looks quite nice
19:58:48  <frosch123> the reservation is reset by toggling the "allow multiple newgrf engines sets". but that is only possible as long as there are no build vehicles
19:58:58  <Nite_Owl> very nice charts of all of the engines and wagons which I have updated a bit since they were last done
19:59:46  <frosch123> reset_engines does not reset that reservation
19:59:56  <Nite_Owl> I did not remove or add any newgrfs. I only added a few industries in the scenario editor
20:00:02  <OwenS> frosch123: Is there a good reason its impossible to turn multisets on with trains?
20:00:18  <planetmaker> OwenS: yes ;-)
20:00:21  <frosch123> however, it is also possible for newer newgrfs to not replace any engines
20:02:10  <Nite_Owl> I changed the file extension (sav -> scn) and added industries
20:03:43  <Nite_Owl> but what if when I first opened the scenario editor I had a different preset loaded (with a different train set) and then loaded up the changed saved game ??
20:04:37  <planetmaker> yeah. That's a change of newgrf technically
20:04:41  <Ammler> planetmaker: we use usset quite a lot on ps
20:04:46  <Nite_Owl> by changed I mean with the changed file extension
20:04:52  <planetmaker> Ammler: do we? Long time no seen actually
20:04:55  <Ammler> maybe teh most after dbset
20:05:22  <Ammler> as you said, it has quite nice cargo waggons
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20:06:14  <__ln__> @seen Bjarni
20:06:14  <DorpsGek> __ln__: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 4 weeks, 5 days, 20 hours, 40 minutes, and 54 seconds ago: <Bjarni> <-- wtf. Some rich guy built a trebuchet and uses burning pianos as ammo
20:06:34  <KenjiE20> lol
20:08:16  <OwenS> michi_cc: "Depots have signals built in. But as a train inside a depot has no real position anyway, it wouldn't make a difference where the train waits for a free path" <-- So, what, they have a position of, say, 1.24i?
20:08:23  <OwenS> :P
20:08:37  <Nite_Owl> Yes that makes sense. When doing the file extension change into the scenario editor type of thing you have to be sure that you have the same preset chosen as is present in the save game.
20:09:15  <Nite_Owl> before you open the scenario editor
20:09:48  <michi_cc> OwenS: what do you expect in a wormhole? because bridges, tunnels and depots are basically that :)
20:10:22  * Nite_Owl scribbles some notes
20:11:05  <Nite_Owl> thanks again everyone - it makes some sense now
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20:12:26  <planetmaker> no problems, Nite_Owl :-)
20:14:55  <planetmaker> it's always a pleasure talking to you
20:15:02  <Nite_Owl> by the way the US Set was last updated back on April 27th, 2008 - the year on the grf list (2007) is off by by a year
20:15:48  <Nite_Owl> *by a year
20:15:55  <Ammler> grf list?
20:16:33  <Nite_Owl> the in game listing of the grfs you are using
20:17:41  <Nite_Owl> just out of curiosity what do you call it ??
20:18:01  <Ammler> newgrf list :-P
20:18:13  <Ammler> but the name there origins from the grf itself
20:18:34  * Nite_Owl amends his terminology
20:19:23  <Nite_Owl> the last coder the set had made an error in the year
20:19:31  <Ammler> or is the name of a grf saved in the save too?
20:20:08  <planetmaker> ah... looking at the credits: I already assumed so, but DanMacK had his hands in the sprites creation :-)
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20:20:30  <Ammler> so they might look like nars wagons
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20:22:32  <Nite_Owl> DanMack did quite a lot of the sprite work for the US Set
20:23:11  <planetmaker> Not only there. Everywhere!
20:23:19  <Nite_Owl> which is why it looks very similar to the Canadian Set
20:23:35  <planetmaker> We just got sponsored new toyland engines from him :-)
20:27:38  <Nite_Owl> Ah well - no way to remove the default engines that I can find so I either have to start over or suffer with them
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20:29:11  * OwenS crosses fingers - pkg(7) appears to have successfully passed the point at which it used to die horribly
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20:36:01  <Ammler> Nite_Owl: you can, frosch told you how
20:36:12  <Ammler> or do you have already vehicles in?
20:37:09  <Nite_Owl> I do have vehicle in the game
20:37:23  <Nite_Owl> *vehicles
20:37:32  <Nite_Owl> about 30 trains
20:37:54  <Ammler> remove those and disable the multiengine pool
20:38:11  <Nite_Owl> but I could dump them all and then toggle it and be back to where I want to be
20:38:58  <Nite_Owl> I have more then enough cash to do that
20:39:55  <Nite_Owl> would it be just a matter of turning it off and then turning it right back on again ??
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20:47:10  <Nite_Owl> Ahhh - turn it off -> resetengines -> turn it on
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20:50:49  <Nite_Owl> oh well - I will figure it out with enough experimentation
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21:35:54  <Nite_Owl> is there a .cfg setting to have the auto saves show the date (like standard saves) instead of a number ??
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21:58:38  <Ammler> Nite_Owl: I guess so
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21:58:51  <Ammler> dunno, if date, but you should be able to make the names unique
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21:59:49  <Nite_Owl> well the month and year at least
22:02:30  <Nite_Owl> wait.... if you set the keep_all_autosaves = true then it would have to give them a unique name
22:02:51  <Terkhen> good night
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22:04:35  <Nite_Owl> I think that is the way to go
22:10:15  <PeterT> planetmaker: bouncer trouble?
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22:38:08  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19526 /trunk/src/ai/ai_gui.cpp: -Fix (r19395): clients would crash while connecting to a server with AIs
22:38:20  <PeterT> wow, before this commit there actually wasn't a commit for 24 hours
22:38:27  <PeterT> not even a language commit
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22:53:40  <Zuu> PeterT: Maybe everyone is looking over their beer supply ;-)
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22:54:32  <PeterT> hehe
22:55:19  <Zuu> I see, I got a beer with my name it, should be okay. :-)
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22:56:48  <Nite_Owl> or doing fewer commits due to the pending v1.0 release
22:57:02  <PeterT> why would that matter?
22:57:06  <Zuu> Or all the devs go on vacation for a month leaving everyone wondering why 1.0 didn't come out.
22:57:30  <chaos95> maybe they're building suspense
22:57:42  <PeterT> 1.0 in two days!
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22:59:15  <Nite_Owl> possibly - if the trend remains constant - but you must remember the significance of that date
22:59:50  <Zuu> Yep, could be an empty zip-file with nothing inside it other than a note that you got fooled.
23:00:17  <PeterT> you could tell that by the download size
23:00:31  <Zuu> They could add null data to the zip file
23:00:39  <PeterT> unless they are even more wicked and decide to add ~3.5MB hidden files
23:00:54  <OwenS> "Compress" 3.5MB of /dev/urandom?
23:01:02  <OwenS> And zip file? Bah
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23:01:52  <Zuu> Well a bit trial and error with /dev/urandom you could come up with a zip file of the right size.
23:02:32  <OwenS> Nah. Average zip 3.5MB? 3.5MB of urandom. Why? Because random data is uncompressible, and urandom is pretty random
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23:22:56  <OwenS> Hurray for ugly hacks making updates succeed
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23:29:55  <Nite_Owl> I need to feed - later all
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23:37:06  <OwenS> Install Phase - Cleared! Hurrah!
23:38:43  * PeterT gives OwenS a high-five!
23:39:17  <OwenS> Update Phase - Cleared
23:39:24  <OwenS> Now its sitting around doing "something"
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23:41:14  <Eddi|zuHause> you sound like a windows user
23:41:33  <OwenS> This is on an OpenSolaris box
23:42:06  <OwenS> Its just Ive had trouble getting this update to apply, I think because of conflicts with an OS package and nVIDIA's drivers
23:42:36  <OwenS> "A clone of opensolaris-2 exists and has been updated and activated. On the next boot the Boot Environment opensolaris-10 will be mounted on '/'. Reboot when ready to switch to this updated BE." :)
23:43:04  <Eddi|zuHause> ok, a windows user wouldn't speak about "hacks"
23:44:04  <OwenS> Hopefully when I boot into the new BE my C++ compiler will no longer crash the linker ^^
23:44:45  <OwenS> And with that I say good night
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