Log for #openttd on 17th April 2010:
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03:27:53  <Asheron> Greetings, all
03:29:34  <Asheron> Im having a bit of a problem with some AIs for the game,  they keep crashing, I couldnt get a screen shot, but the gist of it is that it cant find the .nut file,
03:30:30  <Asheron> Do I just copy those into the AI folder from my downloaded content, or the entire folder, some of them have the same filenames,  eg.  libray.nut, and main.nut
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03:34:24  <mib_fy014t> Hi, is the websited down?
03:35:21  <Asheron> hold on I will check
03:36:49  <mib_fy014t> ok cheers.  i am getting a 504 gateway timeout
03:37:18  <Asheron> That could mean either you have a ISP timeout, or thier server is down
03:37:47  <mib_fy014t> how could i check that it is my ISP that is the problem?
03:37:53  <Asheron> I get them from time to time on IRC  kinda the same principle as a ping timeout
03:38:25  <Asheron> How fast are other web pages loading?
03:38:48  <mib_fy014t> They are fine.  Google/BBC/Ubuntu are all fine
03:38:50  <Asheron> The wiki is up
03:38:56  <Asheron> Then it isnt your ISP
03:39:28  <mib_fy014t> Yeah I can access the wiki, just not the page
03:40:11  <Asheron> IRC has two primary types of time outs  one is a ping timeout, and the other is a TCP/IP time out
03:40:44  <Asheron> The first is a result of a drop of connection (if I remember correctly) between the contact server and the ISP
03:41:14  <Asheron> The TCP/IP  timeout occurs when your computer loses touch with your ISP
03:42:26  <Asheron> 504s occur much the same way
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03:42:58  <mib_fy014t> well it is sort of weird that i can access the wiki but not the front page.
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03:43:26  <Nite_Owl> Hello all
03:43:31  <mib_fy014t> Hi
03:43:36  <Asheron> one server doesnt recieve a timely response, not necessarily an ISP , it could even be a proxy server acting as a gateway, the proxy and the server you want to connect didnt communicate fast enough
03:44:16  <Nite_Owl> I was going to ask the same question about not being able to access the main page
03:44:37  <Asheron> more than likely the server is down for maintenance,
03:44:52  <mib_fy014t> so is the wiki on a different server then?
03:44:58  <Asheron> yeah
03:45:05  <Asheron> Wiki is on wiki's servers
03:45:17  <mib_fy014t> ok cheers.  i'll try again tomorrow
03:45:19  <Nite_Owl> most likely but it has been inaccessible for a few hours now
03:45:39  <mib_fy014t> thanks for your help Asheron
03:45:45  <Asheron> almost all the wiki's are freehosted by the same people that brought you Wikipedia and Wookiepedia
03:45:50  <Asheron> not a problem
03:45:57  <Asheron> maybe you can help me with one of mine
03:45:58  <mib_fy014t> have a good w/e
03:46:03  <Asheron> Greetings, all
03:46:03  <Asheron> <Asheron> Im having a bit of a problem with some AIs for the game,  they keep crashing, I couldnt get a screen shot, but the gist of it is that it cant find the .nut file,
03:46:03  <Asheron> <Asheron> Do I just copy those into the AI folder from my downloaded content, or the entire folder, some of them have the same filenames,  eg.  libray.nut, and main.nut
03:46:06  <mib_fy014t> i can try
03:46:50  <Asheron> Thats my basic prob
03:47:03  <mib_fy014t> i am not the person to help you.  not really dealt much with this aspect - sorry for that
03:47:24  <Asheron> no prob, have a good night
03:47:30  <mib_fy014t> bye
03:47:30  <Nite_Owl> I do not play with the AI's so I am not going to be much help either
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03:47:41  <Asheron> ok
03:47:53  <Asheron> So do you play on the competition servers?
03:48:41  <Nite_Owl> most of the developers are based in Europe so figure the time difference to where you are and ask then
03:49:00  <Asheron> 5 hours + ahead of us
03:49:08  <Asheron> London is like 6
03:49:22  <Asheron> Germany is 8 or so
03:50:08  <Nite_Owl> So they are still most likely asleep at this time
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03:50:35  <Nite_Owl> They do tend to pop in rather early once they wake up
03:52:00  <Asheron> chuckles N/O you missed what I was saying earlier about What IRC and 504s have in common,  Guest247 had a ping timeout,  that means that his
03:52:33  <Asheron> ISP lost connection to the server, for about 8 minutes before the server disconnected a "ghost"
03:53:47  <Nite_Owl> happens quite frequently around here - net splits are even worse sometimes
03:54:08  <Asheron> Thats why they want everyone to register a nick, if you dont someone can come in using your nick, then you come in later, and everyone blames you for what the other person did
03:54:30  <Asheron> Happened to me on a server that I admined,
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03:55:13  <Asheron> They were flaming some people, one of the other admins called me at home, I hopped on and logged in under an alias and watched it,
03:56:08  <Asheron> ghosted my nick back and put a full ban on thier IP addy, and I was tempted to block their host too
03:56:18  <Nite_Owl> never fun but at least amusing
03:59:12  <Asheron> The person had the nerve to email my "boss" the chat owner, and complain, I had already sent him an email with and identify/ which showed not only the full IP all 12 numbers, but I also pulled a nicklist from nickserv and showed the person who had a registered nick with that IP addy,  and a log of the entire flamesession from the time I got there, as well as a log the other admin sent me from before I got there,
03:59:50  <Asheron> he basically told the girl "To bad so sad hate it for you, but you are SOL"
04:00:57  <Nite_Owl> the joys of the puny minded
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04:01:07  <Asheron> Thats the other one NO
04:01:09  <Asheron> peer,
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04:01:22  <Asheron> Peer = TCP/ IP
04:02:08  <Nite_Owl> I must fly - later all
04:02:13  <Asheron> later NO
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04:07:08  <Asheron> howdy Noob
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04:11:30  <_NoobCp_> Uhuh
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04:26:19  <elmz> are pre-signalled PBS planned/in the making/available?
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06:03:27  <Rubidium> elmz: no
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06:09:24  <dihedral> lol? over 9000 brutefoce attempts last night....
06:09:39  <dihedral> why on earth they always use an invalid user i do not know!
06:09:46  <NoobCp> What's that
06:10:26  <dihedral> one ip tried to ssh into my vserver
06:10:36  <dihedral> over 7.5k times from one ip :-P
06:11:45  <NoobCp> Weren't 45 deg turns supposed to be kind to train speed
06:12:33  <ccfreak2k> Yes because there's no shallower turns.
06:12:53  <NoobCp> I must have misread and memorised they have no effect
06:12:57  <ccfreak2k> However, if you have two 45 degree turns close enough to each other, a train of some length will slow down.
06:14:03  <NoobCp> 13 tiles of straight should be enough for a 24 car train...
06:15:36  <Rubidium> dihedral: there's a thing called a "bot" that does such things. They apparantly aren't distracted by not knowing valid user names for your system
06:15:54  <NoobCp> Yeah, that's it, I must have forgotten the 45 deg speed limit
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06:23:41  * Alberth orders one breakfast
06:32:50  <terinjokes> Alberth: sharing?
06:33:46  <Alberth> seems like a good plan
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07:16:09  <andythenorth> morning
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07:23:04  <Rubidium> Albert: do you deliver here too?
07:23:17  <nighthawk_c_m> mornin
07:25:24  <NoobCp> Excellent service seems to be rather hard to achieve
07:29:55  <Alberth> RB: Still waiting for mine to arrive
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08:20:36  <NoobCp> Any clue if the gradual loading setting affects the time it takes to load cargo?
08:22:10  <Rubidium> it does
08:22:38  <Rubidium> whether for good or for worse depends on the characteristics of the loaded vehicle
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09:05:04  <Terkhen> good morning
09:05:17  <Jupix> mornin
09:05:29  <NoobCp> Aww, that's evil!
09:06:01  <Jupix> what is?
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09:12:49  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: yexo * r19647 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Fix [FS#3768]: trains loaded above the original IDs didn't have a default railtypelabel assigned to them, causing them to be unavailable
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09:33:02  <NoobCp> Jupix the loading speed just mentioned before
09:33:12  <NoobCp> Hmm, getting max passenger rationg for a town is tricky
09:34:04  <NoobCp> Trains in a city are like elephants in a spacecraft fabrication lab
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10:00:15  <andythenorth> So
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10:03:20  <andythenorth> I have an awesome little fishing harbour industry
10:03:20  <andythenorth>
10:03:25  <andythenorth> it looks nice built in towns
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10:03:42  <andythenorth> however, because I wanted to remove the fish cargo, it produces food
10:03:58  <andythenorth> this adds up to some eye candy, but dumb gameplay
10:04:23  <andythenorth> food is produced directly in town, which is the only place to take food.  (and food is a pointless cargo anyway in temperate)
10:05:12  <andythenorth> so I am not sure what to do ??
10:05:14  <andythenorth> :P
10:05:37  <Doorslammer> I dunno, food and fish seems like quite an important way of temperate life :P
10:07:45  <andythenorth> surf n turf
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10:09:43  <Rubidium> Doorslammer: no, here in the temperate climates we prosper when we get a bus going through 3 bus stops every 20 days
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10:10:02  <andythenorth> we don't eat
10:10:09  <andythenorth> we just ride buses for sustenance
10:10:17  <andythenorth> a strange life, but we make the best of it
10:10:51  * andythenorth wonders how a scenario scripting framework might work
10:13:31  <Terkhen> probably like a NoAI script
10:13:34  <andythenorth> imagine if goals could be scripted (e.g. 'grow city x to 20k inhabitants by 2010; deliver 3 million tonnes of coal, generate £20m profit by 1937 etc)
10:13:53  <andythenorth> so the 'ends' would be scriptable, but what about the 'means'
10:13:54  <andythenorth> ?
10:14:09  <Terkhen> oh, I thought you meant a scenario editing script :)
10:14:21  <andythenorth> Railroad Tycoon 3 scenarios also control industry placement, acceptance, available trains etc
10:14:30  <andythenorth> seems like that would be the proper domain of newgrf?
10:17:07  <Pikka> andy, you transport food (and goods) between towns.  such is the way of commerce.
10:17:21  <andythenorth> true
10:17:26  * andythenorth facepalms
10:17:42  <Pikka> awesome harbour graphics, btw :D
10:17:47  <andythenorth> the FIRS brewery and bakery are also in towns, so my 'problem' with the harbour is dumb
10:17:50  <andythenorth> and thanks :)
10:18:04  <andythenorth> they're really very simple, just a lot of work dealing with slopes and foundations
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10:18:52  <andythenorth> and the fishing boat is from Mr DanMacK
10:19:14  * andythenorth ponders scripted goals some more
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10:20:20  <andythenorth> so some of us think the game isn't really a 'game' but a trainset, yes / no?
10:20:37  <andythenorth> but it would still be nice to have some purpose, like a narrative 'try for this' yes / no?
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10:23:06  <Doorslammer> I know a few people who run a trainset with waybill operation
10:23:28  <Doorslammer> So, I dunno, its more an interpretation than a set rule
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10:52:40  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19648 /trunk/src/network/network_client.cpp:
10:52:40  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: -Fix [FS#3760]: a client would not be properly moved when moved while joining,
10:52:40  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: e.g. when entering a company's password. This caused the client to be in the
10:52:40  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: wrong company (according to the rest of the clients) and the client being kicked
10:52:40  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: on the first command
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10:56:31  <andythenorth> hmm
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10:56:40  <andythenorth> a 'goals' script shouldn't depend on specific newgrfs
10:56:51  <andythenorth> newgrfs might not be available, or the grfid might change
10:56:54  <planetmaker> andythenorth: I think that depends
10:57:03  <andythenorth> 'recommended' newgrfs would work
10:57:49  <planetmaker> certain things just might be possible with certain newgrf only. After all both is a programmed piece which need to understand eachother
10:58:01  <planetmaker> oh, good day also ;-)
10:58:44  <SpComb> goals scripts /are/ newgrfs?
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10:59:29  <andythenorth> relation of goals scripts to scenarios?
10:59:43  <andythenorth> seems like a scenario could embed goals, but goals should also be possible without requiring a scenario
11:00:16  <planetmaker> andythenorth: I agree
11:01:42  <planetmaker> SpComb: they are an idea, nothing more
11:02:20  <planetmaker> actually it might be an idea to allow a similar interface for goal scripts like for AI and NewGRF
11:02:40  <planetmaker> they might have dependencies in the form of requiring certain AIs and / or NewGRF being active
11:02:55  <planetmaker> similar to the lib dependencies which AI have already
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11:04:10  <andythenorth> I don' know much about AI but the requirements look broadly similar
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11:06:10  <planetmaker> Yexo: what would I actually need to do in order to interface the NML like adding a binary to /usr/bin ?
11:06:17  <planetmaker> (like grfcodec?)
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11:16:46  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19649 /trunk/src/ (strings.cpp table/strgen_tables.h):
11:16:46  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: -Add: plural rule for Maltese
11:16:46  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: -Fix: plural rule for Irish
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11:18:45  <Nazcafan> hello
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11:19:02  <Nazcafan> is there a way to program autoreplace only for trains that do get old?
11:20:56  <frosch123> andythenorth: your fishing harbour glitches
11:21:05  <Ammler> Nazcafan: that is autorenew
11:21:25  <Nazcafan> Ammler, how do I do that?
11:21:38  <Ammler> advanced settings
11:21:58  <Ammler> wiki -> autorenew
11:22:38  <frosch123> <- the part of the ship which extents the bounding box glitches when scrolling etc
11:22:58  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19650 /trunk/src/lang/unfinished/maltese.txt: -Add: stub for a Maltese translation
11:23:43  <Macha> I've nearly exclusively played temperate up to this point. What are the major differences I need to know for playing artic?
11:23:54  <Jolteon> It sucks
11:23:55  <Jolteon> /end
11:24:02  <Nazcafan> Ammler, I want to replace the trains with newer ones, the old models are not available anymore
11:24:22  <frosch123> Macha: towns above snowline need food to grow
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11:28:05  <Ammler> Nazcafan: and what exactly can't autoreplace do?
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11:29:06  <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: it replaces all vehicles, not only the old ones
11:29:33  <Ammler> ah, I see, so not possible, I guess...
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11:29:46  <Eddi|zuHause> Nazcafan: you can add all old vehicles to a group, and then enable autoreplace only for that group
11:30:32  <Ammler> maybe there is a conditional order for it?
11:32:29  <Ammler> why doesn't a town grow with 4 small s-bahn stations?
11:32:53  <Ammler> the whole town it catched and rating is >=very good
11:33:09  <Alberth> give the town some money
11:33:31  <Alberth> (don't know when a town grows though)
11:33:47  <Ammler> with buses, it would already be bigger :-)
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11:35:58  <Eddi|zuHause> stations must be serviced every 20 days, afaik
11:37:39  <Ammler> yeah, 4 rail stations in a 200 habitants town with 4 trains... :-)
11:37:51  <Ammler> so they are serviced almost daily
11:38:40  <Jolteon> TTD would rock if it used real time
11:38:42  <Jolteon> as opposed to just days.
11:39:06  <Ammler> Jolteon: try dailength patch
11:39:23  * Jolteon shall do.
11:39:59  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: smatz * r19651 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 2 dirs): -Fix [FS#3745]: when a company is sold, move connected clients to spectators
11:42:43  <Rubidium> Jolteon: but then it has to run the whole day and when you load a savegame it has to wait till the right realtime before it can continue again
11:42:58  <Alberth> Jolteon: then you can just about play a single game in your entire life.
11:43:28  <Jolteon> o
11:43:37  <Jolteon> not what I mean.
11:43:42  <Jolteon> I mean simulate real time within the game.
11:43:46  <Jolteon> Not use ACTUAL real time.
11:43:49  <Jolteon> That'd suck more penis than I do.
11:43:52  <Jolteon> which is a lot, being gay.
11:43:58  <NoobCp> Or, everything is accelerated and vehicles move around like they have warp drive
11:44:18  <NoobCp> A blur
11:44:27  <Alberth> NoobCp: we might just as well not draw them at all :p
11:44:44  <NoobCp> Exactly, a cargo line is a line on screen...
11:44:51  <NoobCp> ha ;D
11:45:23  <NoobCp> with properties like capacity and frequency and stuff, all this micromanagement detail becoming something nonsensical........
11:47:24  <NoobCp> I wonder if anyone could develop Orbiter into an MMO trade simulator...
11:48:37  <NoobCp> However twisting of the universe would be requred to allow flexible time gameplay
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11:49:38  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: frosch * r19652 /trunk/ (5 files in 3 dirs): -Fix: RandomRange() is used for bigger ranges in many cases, so generally extent it to handle 32 bits.
11:50:27  <andythenorth> frosch123: hmm, so it does.
11:50:37  <andythenorth> that boat looks like it's out of position though
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12:01:12  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19653 /branches/1.0/ (12 files in 5 dirs): (log message trimmed)
12:01:12  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: [1.0] -Backport from trunk:
12:01:12  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: - Fix: RandomRange() is used for bigger ranges in many cases, so generally extent it to handle 32 bits (r19652)
12:01:12  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: - Fix: When a company is sold, move connected clients to spectators [FS#3745] (r19651)
12:01:12  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: - Fix: A client would not be properly moved when moved while joining, e.g. when
12:01:13  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: entering a company's password. This caused the client to be in the wrong company
12:01:15  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: (according to the rest of the clients) and the client being kicked on the first
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12:43:44  <Eddi|zuHause>
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12:46:02  <Eddi|zuHause> (alternate explanation: the ashes come from all the money that was burned in iceland)
12:47:58  <NoobCp> Hrm
12:48:04  <NoobCp> Big smoke
12:48:16  <OwenS> My HDD finally arrived :-)
12:48:22  <OwenS> And, for the second time in 30 days...
12:48:29  <OwenS>        2       8       18        1      spare rebuilding   /dev/sdb2
12:48:35  <OwenS>           State : clean, degraded, recovering
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12:57:52  * Rubidium awaits the... oh shit it copied the new disk over the old one
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13:02:21  <Eddi|zuHause> :p
13:13:37  <nighthawk_c_m> lol
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13:22:16  <RossMills> Hey guys, I'm just wondering if you could help me with an OpenTTD question.  I'm trying to set up a server at work so that we can play at lunchtimes and leave it running during the day.  I want the server to run for about a month, and then reset.  But I want it to go from 1940 to 2050 in that month.  Is there any way to slow the days down without slowing the actual movement of vehicles, etc?
13:22:23  <RossMills> Slowing the day ticks, as it were.
13:22:43  <glx> no
13:22:54  <KenjiE20> not with patching
13:23:18  <RossMills> Fair enough, any idea if that might come into a future update?
13:23:35  <glx> very hard to do it right
13:25:21  <nighthawk_c_m> there is apatch for the day length of an ingame day, basically the game uses ticks, and the patch multiplies the amount of ticks untill it considers a day over
13:26:03  <RossMills> Would each user need to patch that, or just the server?
13:26:14  <nighthawk_c_m> Each user
13:26:18  <RossMills> Thanks
13:26:22  <Ammler> RossMills: why do you want it so slow?
13:26:44  <nighthawk_c_m> this is the thread to a patch set  that includes the day length change
13:26:45  <Ammler> I mean, you can also just paly until year 10000
13:26:57  <RossMills> I would assume that a constantly running server would be over far sooner than a month, and I'd want to spread out the upgrades to tech over that time.
13:27:09  <RossMills> Otherwise they're all available day one
13:27:14  <KenjiE20> I you're only running at lunch
13:27:23  <KenjiE20> you could just set min_active_clients
13:27:24  <nighthawk_c_m> well - be aware that the server alway spauses when no client is connected I think
13:27:31  <nighthawk_c_m> except that can be modified
13:27:33  <KenjiE20> so it pauses when no one is on
13:27:44  <RossMills> The server would be running all the time, people might log in after work too.
13:27:46  <nighthawk_c_m> jepp that what i ment
13:27:51  <RossMills> Oh so it can pause?
13:27:52  <RossMills> Nice
13:28:35  <nighthawk_c_m> yepp
13:28:36  <NoobCp> Warning about stability with high station spread still applies? I wonder how all those coop games work out heh...
13:28:57  <Ammler> RossMills: OpenTTD isn't really a game for break times
13:29:04  <nighthawk_c_m> I would appreciate a bit bigger station spread, and something I noticed in FIRS - oil Plattforms grow everywhere ^
13:29:10  <glx> it never been a stability warning but a performance one
13:29:21  <Ammler> if you start, you have quite fast done an hour or more
13:29:29  <NoobCp> k
13:30:31  <RossMills> Ammler - This is mostly an experiment, a fair few people signed up on the office's newsgroup
13:31:44  <Terkhen> nighthawk_c_m: bigger than 64x64?
13:31:56  <RossMills> Yeah, it would keep going over multiple days
13:32:04  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: frosch * r19654 /trunk/src/ (24 files): -Codechange: Use Extract<> in more places.
13:32:50  <nighthawk_c_m> Hmm... last time 65 would have been sufficient as via Station walking I missed just one OIl rig in a Netork test
13:33:25  <nighthawk_c_m> Probably anything bexond 64x64 is way too large anyways - I still have to build such a station
13:33:38  <RossMills> Station walking?
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13:36:14  <Alberth> probably build a platform; while not walked_enough: build another platform and join with previous platform; remove previous platform; endwhile
13:36:52  <Alberth> s/bly/bly:/
13:37:20  <glx> useless sed ;)
13:38:09  <Alberth> s/probably/probably:/   better?
13:38:10  <glx> or stupid smiley
13:38:20  <glx> yeh stupid smiley
13:38:33  <RossMills> Thanks guys
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13:38:46  <NoobCp> 64 tile trains? Hmmm....
13:39:06  <Alberth> stupid irc client trying to guess when a smiley is used :)
13:39:19  <NoobCp> emoticons are the devil
13:39:31  <Alberth> yeah, I disabled them
13:40:01  <NoobCp> I enable them so that I can send smileys hopefully unaffected by such heresy ;P
13:40:33  <NoobCp> Platforms shorter than train had a negative effect on loading right?
13:40:50  <Alberth> it works until you start discussing pieces of code :)
13:41:11  <Alberth> yes, longer trains than the platforms are really bad for loading speed
13:42:20  <Rubidium> Asian smileys are so much better (*^.^*)
13:43:21  <Rubidium> ٩(͡๏̯͡๏)۶ <- or those :)
13:43:29  <glx> nice
13:43:31  <planetmaker> :-)
13:44:32  <Eddi|zuHause> err... what?
13:45:01  <Eddi|zuHause> i have a feeling that one doesn't look the same way for me as it does for you
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13:45:54  <NoobCp> Anyone know if a simple pbs terminus station is better or worse than one with those hugely complicated access systems
13:46:00  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: frosch * r19655 /trunk/src/economy.cpp: -Codechange: Reduce usage magic p1 parameter.
13:47:37  <Eddi|zuHause> grammar not is best friend frosch123
13:47:56  <Alberth> NoobCp: any layout that does the job, is fine I think
13:48:12  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: it's magic :)
13:48:22  <NoobCp> I guess I'll have to see how big the que gets
13:49:20  <Eddi|zuHause> NoobCp: terminal stations work best when you have multiple lines from different directions, instead of one big main line
13:49:38  * andythenorth ponders hovercraft
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13:50:09  <Alberth> NoobCp: it depends on your playing style. If you want to make a station one time, you'll have to make it big enough for the whole game. You can also start with a smaller/simpler station, and extend when needed.
13:50:29  <NoobCp> I'm thinking of immersing the station in a city, more caption area with terminus.
13:51:10  <Eddi|zuHause> it's one of the big advantages of cargodist, you can place the main station on the edge of the city and cover the whole city with a tram network
13:51:29  <NoobCp> cargodist?
13:51:38  <andythenorth> or you can fool around with doubling up stations and uses buses on transfers :P
13:52:04  <NoobCp> buses seem too have a a mosquito load of passengers ;/
13:52:22  <Eddi|zuHause> i said trams.
13:52:36  <andythenorth> trams / buses /s
13:52:49  <Alberth> number of passengers in cities is a general problem. Even with a train station you can get into trouble :)
13:53:31  <NoobCp> three line three long platform seemed to be able to almost clear it's passenger load on monorail
13:53:41  <NoobCp> I'll have to try experimenting with steamers soon
13:59:10  <planetmaker> a good idea, also without cargodist, is to build the ICE a bit outside and transfer the passengers by a (HUGE) tram network
14:08:13  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, as long as the main stations accept passengers, you only need one way transfers
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14:18:13  <planetmaker> hm, mingw seems to have gotten an update to gcc-4.4
14:20:33  <NoobCp> 20ish shiploads a month...
14:21:35  <Terkhen> yes, I installed gcc-4.4 on mine a few days ago
14:27:53  <andythenorth> DanMacK: how big are small lakers?
14:37:17  <andythenorth> hmm
14:37:23  <andythenorth> what a lot of hovercraft
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14:48:09  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: frosch * r19656 /trunk/src/ (vehicle_cmd.cpp vehiclelist.cpp vehiclelist.h): -Codechange/Fix: Report back if invalid vehicle lists are requested.
14:50:32  <NoobCp> I say oil rigs are brutal
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14:56:01  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: frosch * r19657 /trunk/src/ (order_cmd.cpp vehicle_cmd.cpp): -Fix: Add saneness checks for front vehicles.
14:58:00  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: frosch * r19658 /trunk/src/ (landscape.cpp misc_cmd.cpp): -Fix: One could turn transport companies into credit banks.
14:58:35  * andythenorth wonders if freight hovercraft should be *not* refittable to bulk cargos like coal?
14:59:05  <NoobCp> I tuned up my rig's passanger output to the max actually
14:59:18  <SpComb> let the fools fly their cargo if they wish to
14:59:30  <NoobCp> Cargoship not good enough?
15:00:05  * andythenorth hmmmms a bit
15:00:31  <andythenorth> some av8 planes are refittable to bulk cargo, some are not
15:00:51  <NoobCp> Air coal! ha
15:00:54  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: so only express cargo (goods, mail, food)?
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15:01:01  <NoobCp> Coal fired planes would be fun
15:01:02  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: maybe
15:01:20  <Eddi|zuHause> sounds fine
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15:02:56  <Pikka> hmmmmmmm
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15:03:23  <planetmaker> he... it was possible to repay more loan than was drawn?
15:03:37  <planetmaker> Nice thing :-)
15:04:05  <NoobCp> Negative moneys!
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15:06:10  <Pikka> hmmm
15:06:12  <Pikka> hmmmmmmmmmmmm
15:06:30  * Pikka has a request >:]
15:06:47  <Rubidium> to fly across nothern Europe?
15:06:50  * Hirundo suggests asking a meta-question first
15:07:03  <KenjiE20> no you can't have my red fez
15:07:24  <planetmaker> hm... the estimated cost for repaying 10k loan are zero
15:07:46  <NoobCp> What does (x/8 goods) in land area information for a building mean?
15:07:57  * Pikka would like callback 36 for aircraft speed to change the canonical top speed (displayed in the aircraft window and buy menu) when the callback occurs in the cargo FF chain.
15:08:37  <planetmaker> NoobCp: a station accepts cargo, if in the area of influence a total of more than 8/8 of that cargo is accepted
15:09:00  <planetmaker> same goes for providing mail and pax
15:14:17  <Eddi|zuHause> NoobCp: if a building accepts 3/8 goods, you need three of these buildings to accept goods
15:14:40  <NoobCp> Thanks, I understand now
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15:15:49  * NoobCp fears his 4 point network is going to fail miserably
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15:28:17  <andythenorth> Pikka might be thinking something similar to me, except I'm thinking about ships
15:30:03  <Pikka> andy: if you mean what I just said... :P
15:30:16  <andythenorth> speed varies by refit?
15:30:25  <Pikka> or by year
15:30:51  <Pikka> I /can/ change it just fine already, it's just it will show the wrong number in the buy menu and aircraft info window
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15:32:47  <andythenorth> I have the same issue for ships
15:32:58  <andythenorth> except speed varies by load size
15:34:26  * andythenorth was just pondering hovercraft that can 'overload' at the cost of top speed (based on RL)
15:34:39  <Pikka> I see, sounds good :)
15:35:39  <Yexo> andythenorth: have you already tried it for ships?
15:35:48  <Yexo> from the code it looks likes it's already implemented
15:37:54  <NoobCp> 50 kg per passenger, nice...
15:38:25  <Pikka> where, noobcp?
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15:41:09  <Yexo> Pikka: could you test ?
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15:42:08  <Pikka> I can't easily compile, Yexo
15:42:25  <Pikka> wb DanMacK
15:42:32  <DanMacK> thanks
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15:43:19  <Pikka> if you or andy could knock out a windows binary? :o
15:43:27  <Yexo> already working on that
15:43:41  <Pikka> thanks
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15:50:18  <DanMacK> Windows binary for what may I ask?
15:50:32  <planetmaker> Pikka: andy certainly can't give you easily a windows binary ;-)
15:50:42  <planetmaker> or I'd be surprised :-)
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15:51:33  <planetmaker> afaik he uses OSX
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15:52:55  <NoobCp> If the default 1950 passenger carriage's weights are 25 and 27 t and it carries 40 passengers Pikka, then in the default set?
15:54:51  <Pikka> NoobCp: 62.5kg, to be precise.
15:54:53  <Yexo> Pikka:
15:55:07  <Pikka> thanks Yexo, I'll test it now
15:55:31  <NoobCp> 2 tonnes/40
15:55:51  * Yexo wonders how long till the same request for road vehicles comse in
15:56:09  <Pikka> do road vehicles even have 36 for speed? :P
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15:56:35  <Yexo> hmm, apparently not
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15:57:33  <Pikka> looks like it works, Yexo :D
15:57:35  <andythenorth> Terkhen was looking at cb 36 (I think) when he did 'realistic' rv acceleration?
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15:57:49  <Pikka> in the buy menu, I guess I can live with the wrong speed in the aircraft info window
15:57:52  <andythenorth> and Yexo yes cb 36 works for ships.  the log raft in FISH is *much* faster without a log tow
15:57:57  <andythenorth> but reports the wrong speed :)
15:58:00  <andythenorth> (top speed)
15:58:15  <Yexo> Pikka: where exactly does it report the wrong speed?
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15:58:30  <Yexo> andythenorth: same question ^^
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15:59:29  <Pikka> the "Max Speed" in the vehicle info window
15:59:29  <Terkhen> <-- I have an untested patch to implement cb36 for power, weight and tractive effort (RVs), but I have never looked at RV speed
15:59:31  <andythenorth> Yexo: buy menu, vehicle info menu
15:59:54  <Pikka> however, this isn't an easy fix, because you don't necessarily want it to change with phase of flight (which is what cb36 was originally created to do)
16:00:07  <Yexo> andythenorth: in the buy menu cb36 is called with cargotype FF
16:00:29  <andythenorth> I think this is fundamentally hard to solve
16:00:54  <andythenorth> I'm going to buy a ship.  Which 'max' speed is useful?  Loaded, unloaded, or some other crazy condition invented by a grf author?
16:01:13  <Pikka> the "best" solution I can think of is to use cargotype FF when drawing the number, but it's a bit hacky because it's an abuse of the "buy menu" cargotype.
16:01:27  <Pikka> when drawing the number in the vehicle info window, I mean
16:02:16  <andythenorth> can't the vehicle info window just run the cb chain and use that as the result?  The game *knows* the top speed, why can't it just be displayed?
16:02:30  <andythenorth> the buy menu....much harder.  Should be dealt with by the grf author using additional text
16:02:35  <Pikka> andy: because then you'll get constant number changes with phase of flight for aircraft.
16:02:42  <andythenorth> ah
16:02:47  * andythenorth sees the point
16:02:49  <Pikka> the buy menu is easy, yexo's patch took care of that (for aircraft)
16:03:05  <andythenorth> hmmm.   Think we have similar but different problems :)
16:03:10  <Pikka> :)
16:03:54  <Pikka> if you're just trying to change the speed, that should be easy enough?  "Max. Speed" doesn't necessarily mean "how fast I can go right now", anyway. ^^;
16:04:08  <Pikka> thanks very much for the patch, Yexo. :)
16:04:15  *** aber1 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:04:16  <Yexo> np :)
16:04:28  <Yexo> I'll take a look at the other problems now
16:05:42  * andythenorth wonders about smoke for ships and RVs :P
16:10:03  <fjb> No smoking. Save your environment.
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16:15:46  <Pikka> it's arudge
16:16:10  <SpComb> you're all arudge
16:18:43  <Pikka> hmm
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16:23:33  <welshdragon> hmm
16:24:16  <welshdragon> what'd be the ideal spec for a dedicated server?
16:24:42  <__ln__> 128 cores @4GHz
16:25:16  <Terkhen> depends on what you plan to use it for
16:25:41  <jordi> grr
16:25:53  <welshdragon> Infrastructure Sharing and Cargodist
16:25:53  <jordi> I spent lots of Debian time on opettd today
16:25:54  <OwenS> In my opinion: Sun UltraSPARC T2 x2 ;-)
16:26:11  <OwenS> Oh, for running OpenTTD...
16:26:24  <welshdragon> of course
16:26:30  <welshdragon> that's why i asked in here
16:26:49  <OwenS> We don't talk about OpenTTD much in here :P
16:27:09  <Ammler> welshdragon: not much weaker then the client...
16:27:35  <OwenS> I think I'd have to vote for IBM POWER6 then. Pricey though :P
16:27:49  <welshdragon> Ammler: so 1GB Ram... 300MB for saves/data?
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16:28:51  <Ammler> you need around 20 MB Memory
16:29:46  <welshdragon> OK
16:30:03  <Ammler> (rahter less)
16:31:42  * andythenorth wonders about freight hovercraft carrying PAX
16:31:46  <andythenorth> maybe not
16:33:05  <Pikka> NoobCp: passengers weight 1/16th of a ton or 62.5kg
16:34:12  <NoobCp> if 2 tons is 40 passengers, then one passenger would be 1/20. Again, if.
16:34:55  <Pikka> but it isn't
16:36:45  * andythenorth enjoys deciding vehicle stats
16:37:11  <andythenorth> not easy, but less tedious than pixels :)
16:37:11  <Pikka> ttd cargos have weights in 16th of a ton, and passengers weigh 1/16th. :)
16:37:19  <Pikka> *nods* yep andy
16:38:26  <NoobCp> Should've said that in the first place. Deduction cannot indicate wether the figure is rounded or not
16:40:48  <Ammler> he, that should change 50kg might be 100 years ago, but today it is more 100kg ;-)
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16:45:36  * andythenorth obsesses about not cluttering the buy menu
16:45:45  <andythenorth> but complicated refits are bad too
16:45:55  <andythenorth> 5 hovercraft seems quite a lot
16:46:02  * andythenorth shrugs
16:47:35  <andythenorth> Terkhen you've had a go with the cargo trams in HEQS?
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16:51:12  <Terkhen> I used them a lot in my last game
16:53:03  <andythenorth> I am planning tow boats for FISH.  They haul 1-4 barges.  I am wondering about doing that as either refits (like the trams) or separate ships in the buy menu
16:53:13  <andythenorth> is the refit annoying?
16:54:53  <Terkhen> kind of, but I think having separate vehicles with the same stats and different cargo capacity will be worse (more confusing)
16:55:21  <Terkhen> hhmmm...
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16:56:36  <Terkhen> if the window was splitted in two (a half for cargos, a half for the subtypes of that cargo) it would be simpler to use
16:59:14  <frosch123> subtypes in the purchase list? cargotypes and capacity hardly work :p
16:59:31  <Terkhen> I meant the refit window
17:00:13  <frosch123> oh, nice idea :o
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17:00:44  <Terkhen> in some corner cases (no subtypes, a single cargo) it would revert to the old style
17:01:02  <asilv> that would probably make things like NARS regearing look much better
17:01:14  <frosch123> you could also preselect the current cargo in case one only wants to change the subtype
17:02:01  <Terkhen> but... how to decide the current cargo for trains?
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17:02:40  <frosch123> good point
17:02:54  <frosch123> i guess the most carried cargo
17:03:13  <frosch123> that would also deal with those weird articulated wagons carrying both passenger and mail
17:03:41  <frosch123> ais do something similar
17:04:02  <Terkhen> preselecting the current cargo would be useful for the current window too... I thought about it but I didn't know how to solve the train problem nicely
17:04:21  <Terkhen> is there a function defined for that?
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17:05:33  <frosch123> hmm, i guess not
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17:06:37  <Terkhen> using the most carried cargo makes sense, but NARS regearing would never be preselected then
17:07:11  <frosch123> it would if there is only the engine, wouldn't it?
17:07:18  <Terkhen> yes
17:07:31  <andythenorth> this sounds good to me, cargo refitting is a chore
17:07:51  <Terkhen> I have never played with NARS, I don't know how useful is to regear existing trains
17:08:03  <andythenorth> moderately
17:08:11  <andythenorth> sometimes very useful
17:08:18  <andythenorth> useful / fun /s
17:08:27  <frosch123> in the meantime. can someone recommend me a good trainset with nice freight engines and less MUs
17:08:34  <andythenorth> NARS 2.0
17:08:39  * andythenorth draws tanker sprites
17:09:26  <andythenorth> canset 1.0
17:09:30  <andythenorth> :P
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17:11:26  <Terkhen> besides NARS regearing I can't think of any other case where selecting the most carried cargo is not the best option
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17:12:14  <frosch123> hmm, actually, sort them by current capacity, and then alphabetically
17:12:28  <frosch123> that would also work with mixed trains
17:12:29  <nighthawk_c_m> Norwegian Trainset - very nice to get used to freight hauling - or the Canadian, but that has tons of engines - eyecandy at its best
17:12:37  *** DJNekkid [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:12:49  <TheLamer> Hi. I just start a new server, come and play :) [CZ] 1.0.0-Trains Only [1962]  ip:
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17:15:05  <Terkhen> setting the amount of "regearing" cargo to the max would make it appear the first in most cases, at the cost of making the buy vehicle window look uglier
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17:17:42  <elmz_> lol, funding road reconstruction in a town with 40k inhabitants was noisy :P
17:18:26  <OwenS> I wonder what the racket would be like with 150k
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17:25:15  <elmz_> how do you make a city grow fast?
17:25:42  <elmz_> how many stations is the max that helps to boost city growth?
17:26:45  <asilv> 5
17:26:46  <elmz_> or do you just have to be lucky and hit a town that is predestined to become a large city?
17:27:00  <OwenS> elmz_: thar helps. They're designated by (City) in the city window
17:27:20  <OwenS> Though the biggest ones are not cities in our game XD
17:28:17  <elmz_> hm, never seen one with a City flag...
17:28:28  <elmz_> guess I haven't been looking after it either ^^
17:29:23  <elmz_> I remember back in 0.6.x I made a gigantic city in the scenario editor, highways and everything ^^
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17:33:01  <elmz_> and in-game I usually tend to "assist" the town algorithms :P
17:33:41  <elmz_> I try to get as many houses covered by one train station.
17:33:44  <elmz_>
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17:45:48  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: translators * r19659 /trunk/src/lang/ (8 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
17:45:48  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:48  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: finnish - 1 changes by jpx_
17:45:48  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: french - 1 changes by glx
17:45:48  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: greek - 2 changes by fumantsu
17:45:49  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: irish - 2 changes by Nalum
17:45:49  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: maltese - 74 changes by kelinu
17:45:56  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: yexo * r19660 /trunk/src/engine.cpp: -Feature: [NewGRF] support cb36 for aircraft speed also in the build menu
17:47:09  <Pikka> thanks yexo :)
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17:53:58  * andythenorth wonders about random graphics for vehicles
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17:54:36  <andythenorth> how to have a ferry show random cars each time it loads, but *with* multiple loading states
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17:55:03  <frosch123> use the completely-empty trigger for rerandomisation
17:55:18  <andythenorth> that would make sense
18:01:17  <lennard> TrueBrain: did you remember to re-enable? :P
18:01:36  <TrueBrain> of course not
18:02:18  <TrueBrain> there we go
18:02:20  <TrueBrain> tnx lennard
18:02:28  <lennard> np :P
18:03:44  <Eddi|zuHause> <Ammler> he, that should change 50kg might be 100 years ago, but today it is more 100kg ;-) <-- the figure is way wrong anyway, because people have baggage etc.
18:04:55  *** bryjen [~bryjen@] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
18:05:51  <Pikka> Eddi, Ammler; strangely enough, people get lighter the more of them there are. :P
18:07:17  <TrueBrain> OMG! COD4 MW2 MP SUCKS!!!!!!! We are now migrating for .. 2 minutes already to a new host .. FUCK OFF! GIVE ME DEDICATED SERVERS!
18:10:28  * Eddi|zuHause was going to ask what was going on with TrueBrain, but then realized, that it's TrueBrain we're speaking about :p
18:12:28  <TrueBrain> just ranting about MW2
18:17:45  <nighthawk_c_m> A question, is it possible to turn cargo dist off if it is included in a patched binary?
18:17:49  <Eddi|zuHause> is that remotely comparable to WT2? :p
18:18:21  <Eddi|zuHause> nighthawk_c_m: yes, set the demand function to unhandled
18:19:15  <nighthawk_c_m> I mean in the advanced menue, where do I find that demand function?
18:19:33  <Eddi|zuHause> under economy, i presume
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18:20:28  <nighthawk_c_m> no, I only find a Minimum cargo rating cap (whatever that is ??) and I have the linkgraph stuff
18:20:46  <asilv> it is in link graph
18:21:04  <asilv> cargo handling for passengers,mail etc
18:21:17  <asilv> set to unhandled
18:21:30  <nighthawk_c_m> I don't know - there are options for Distribution of Passengers / mail etc
18:21:38  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, those
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18:21:50  <Eddi|zuHause> symmetric/asymmetric/unhandled
18:21:54  <nighthawk_c_m> I can set it to symetric, asymetric or manual
18:22:27  <nighthawk_c_m> ah ok, manual means no cargo dist active?
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18:23:08  <asilv> yes i think so, my version says unhandled bit it is pretty old
18:23:18  <asilv> bit=but
18:23:32  <fonsinchen> I've replaced "unhandled" with manual
18:23:41  <Eddi|zuHause> fonsinchen: it's a bad name imho
18:23:49  <fonsinchen> as it's "manual distribution" not "unhandled distribution"
18:23:52  <Eddi|zuHause> fonsinchen: how about "off"?
18:24:17  <fonsinchen> off sounds better indeed
18:25:29  <fonsinchen> and about minimum cargo rating cap:
18:25:53  <fonsinchen> With cargodist you get your station ratings adjusted by number of destinations reachable
18:26:19  <fonsinchen> The "minimum cargo rating cap" is the minimum rating you can get after the adjustment.
18:26:50  <fonsinchen> It's probably misnamed, too.
18:26:51  <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds very confusing...
18:27:03  <fonsinchen> But I can't even think of a word for that in German.
18:28:28  <fonsinchen> I mean, of course you can still get lower ratings, but then it's not because of cargodist lowering them.
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18:29:14  <fonsinchen> The rating is capped at a certain value depending on the number of destinations reachable.
18:29:40  <fonsinchen> That setting is the minimum of the cap.
18:29:44  <fonsinchen> whatever ...
18:31:17  <nighthawk_c_m> so if I try it to be the classical way I set the cap to 100% or to 0% ?
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18:32:04  <fonsinchen> 100%
18:32:23  <fonsinchen> then all ratings just stay the same
18:33:07  <fonsinchen> 0% means you get 0% for a theoretical station with no destinations reachable
18:33:19  <fonsinchen> no matter how many vehicles stop there.
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18:35:56  <nighthawk_c_m> ok, thanks
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18:49:54  <Pikka> Yexo, newairports isn't in trunk yet, is it?
18:50:00  <Yexo> nope
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18:50:32  <Yexo> I got sidetracked with nml so I haven't finished it yet
18:50:43  <Pikka> ah, okay :)
18:51:09  <TrueBrain> nml?
18:51:18  <Yexo> nfo meta language
18:51:23  <TrueBrain> lol
18:51:39  <Pikka> is it pretty solid at the moment?  I should have a go at coding some airports again.  and sea ports, and "industry" airports... D:
18:51:49  <Eddi|zuHause> the umpteenth attempt of making grfs more programmer-friendly ;)
18:52:06  * Pikka finds them perfectly friendly... :P
18:52:26  <Yexo> Pikka: not really, especially the important part (the statemachine callback) is not stable
18:52:32  <Pikka> oh
18:53:35  <Yexo> <Eddi|zuHause> the umpteenth attempt of making grfs more programmer-friendly ;) <- and how many of those have any been in a workable state?
18:57:28  <planetmaker> doesn't look too bad yet :-)
18:58:45  * andythenorth is on the fence about nml :P
18:58:52  <andythenorth> it it works, it'll be outstanding :)
18:59:02  <andythenorth> but nfo is perfectly usable.
18:59:14  <andythenorth> it's not nfo that makes things hard, it's...
18:59:18  <andythenorth> (a) debugging / testing grfs
18:59:32  <andythenorth> (b) understanding how openttd works (in the case of industries anyway)
19:00:27  <andythenorth> I am a slapdash coder with no formal training in programming and I can do perfectly well in nfo :D
19:00:49  <andythenorth> but also if I can help with nml I will :)
19:01:08  <andythenorth> meanwhile, it would be nice to have *more and better fricking airports* :P
19:01:18  <planetmaker> andythenorth: even if I can somewhat code nfo I don't find it particularily readable.
19:01:41  <Pikka> that's what comments are for
19:01:46  <planetmaker> still
19:02:47  <planetmaker> in order to keep an action2 sequence readable, you'll have to write a comment on virtually every 2nd to 4th byte
19:03:07  <Pikka> no you don't
19:03:33  <Pikka> the syntax of every var action 2 is exactly the same, once you learn the grammar of them it's pretty easy to see what's what.
19:04:04  <Yexo> even then you either have to know the variabls that are used, look them up or write a comment near every variable
19:04:11  <planetmaker> having a consitant syntax is a pre-requisite, but that doesn't mean readibility
19:04:37  <andythenorth> you just read up from the bottom of varaction 2 chains
19:04:41  <Pikka> one comment per line is plenty, usually. :)
19:04:47  <Pikka> 601 * 14	 02 03 20 81 c4 00 FF 01 28 00 \b70 FF 20 00 // year built
19:04:53  <planetmaker> wonderful.
19:04:57  <andythenorth> with industry code, you have almost *no* chance of reconstructing what I intended to do anyway :D
19:05:07  <andythenorth> because industries are bonkers
19:05:13  <Pikka> totally :P
19:05:21  <Pikka> although once you've done one it gets easier ;)
19:05:32  <planetmaker> of course it does. No doubt.
19:05:41  <planetmaker> but the learning slope is PRETTY steep
19:05:43  <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: you realize that "readability" depends heavily on whether you or someone else wrote the code :p
19:05:54  <Pikka> yes, Eddi
19:06:15  <andythenorth>
19:06:17  <Pikka> although I can make sense of other people's code if I reformat and recomment it a little.
19:06:19  <Eddi|zuHause> problem with action 2 is that they're backwards...
19:06:21  <andythenorth> totally readable :)
19:06:33  <Terkhen> the learning slope was so steep for me that it is more like a wall :P
19:06:59  <planetmaker> <- a simple tram
19:07:29  <andythenorth> yep, improved
19:07:41  <andythenorth> but what are all those { chars for?
19:07:48  <andythenorth> :P
19:07:57  <andythenorth> strange.
19:08:04  <Pikka> yuk
19:08:11  <andythenorth> perhaps we could add semi-colons too :D
19:08:14  <Pikka> bring back the byte :P
19:08:16  <andythenorth> oh, we did
19:08:32  <andythenorth> what's wrong with significant whitespace :P
19:08:43  <planetmaker> :-P it's not fortran! ;-)
19:09:15  <andythenorth> yeah, but you've indented everything properly anyway, so why bother with the braces?
19:09:25  <Eddi|zuHause> significant whitespaces work well in python, as long as you don't mix tabs and spaces
19:09:30  * Pikka doesn't understand how "weight: 5; // tons" is any easier than "16 \b2 // weight"
19:10:04  <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: you have to remember that 16 is weight
19:10:05  <planetmaker> Pikka: it's understandable without any knowledge
19:10:15  <Pikka> no you don't, it says right there.
19:10:36  <planetmaker> he?
19:10:45  * andythenorth stops an argument about python before he loses on a basic mistake :P
19:10:52  <Yexo> Pikka: take train speed for example, with nfo you have to use 2 properties, 16 for the low byte and 24 for the high byte
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19:10:57  <planetmaker> how is "16" as clear a description as "weight"?
19:10:59  <andythenorth> python dicts also have those tiresome braces m(
19:11:00  <Yexo> in nml it's just a single line "speed: value;"
19:11:01  <Alberth> andythenorth: LALR(1) is a context-free parser, it does not understand white space, in fact it throws all white space in the bin first
19:11:36  <andythenorth> meanwhile....back at the ranch / well /s
19:11:36  <Pikka> anyway
19:11:38  <andythenorth>
19:11:55  <andythenorth> airplanes are the best way to deliver FIRS engineering supplies to primary industry
19:12:06  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: no, that has nothing to do with it. LALR(1) is the syntactical analysis, whitespaces are handled way earlier in the compiler toolchain
19:12:14  * andythenorth nods at Pikka for generalAV8on
19:12:30  <Eddi|zuHause> in the lexical analysis/tokenizer
19:12:42  <Eddi|zuHause> which is usually regexp based
19:12:44  <Pikka> making something which can translate "weight:" into "16" is all very well... but I'm yet to be convinced that there's any way to make advanced action 2s more "accessable" to your average punter.
19:13:17  <planetmaker> they're in the thing already as far as I see that... I just haven't gone there.
19:13:19  * andythenorth jumps up and down about airports :P
19:13:20  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: still, the parser does not use indenting and \n to understand blocks
19:13:57  <Alberth> andythenorth: your passengers have to cross the tiles where the planes taxi  :p
19:14:07  <Pikka> andy, you'll be wanting something like
19:14:08  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: you can turn whitespaces into tokens at this point, allowing for the syntactical analysis to handle them
19:14:15  <Pikka> or the "tactical airstrip" which I haven't drawn yet :P
19:14:24  <andythenorth> Pikka: exactly :)
19:14:30  * Alberth wishes Eddi|zuHausea lot of good luck with comment handling
19:14:39  <andythenorth> except it has to land a C130 without crashing the damn thing once a year :)
19:14:50  <Terkhen> I have been thinking about that airport while playing FIRS too :)
19:15:20  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: the python parser has "INDENT" tokens, so it can't be that absurd...
19:15:26  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: terkhen * r19661 /trunk/src/graph_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Base the number of vertical grids of a graph on its size.
19:15:43  <andythenorth> I have resorted to landing the plane at an airport then using a helicopter for a final leg.  Looks better
19:15:51  <Pikka> yep, that's a 3 and the hercules will want a 4... but there'll be one. :P
19:16:01  <andythenorth> incidentally planes lose money like nobody's business when delivering ENSP and FMSP
19:16:10  <__ln__> does a newgrf allwo me to build a volcano?
19:16:13  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: it is a very nice hack :)
19:16:21  <planetmaker> __ln__: yes.
19:16:25  <__ln__> great
19:16:28  <Terkhen> I get money when using rvs
19:16:30  <planetmaker> Just define it as an industry
19:16:31  <Pikka> why's that, andythenorth? low paying cargo?
19:16:34  <andythenorth> maybe
19:16:39  <andythenorth> I haven't sorted the payment rates yet
19:16:43  <__ln__>
19:16:45  <andythenorth> so much to do :P
19:17:15  <planetmaker> probably it's a primary industry and you can transport CO2, ash, and lava from there.
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19:17:59  <Terkhen> not by airplane, I guess
19:19:10  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: terkhen * r19662 /trunk/src/graph_gui.cpp: -Feature: Resizable graphs.
19:19:18  <andythenorth> if anyone wanted to help set cargo payment rates for FIRS, I'd welcome the help
19:20:48  <Pikka> the dark arts indeed :P  I've never quite worked out how to get the graph to curve the way I want it to.
19:22:25  * andythenorth also has some serious thinking to do about drawing a better forest
19:22:26  <andythenorth>
19:23:08  <Terkhen> <-- what do you think about this feature? (the screenshot is taken from an ancient patch)
19:23:20  <andythenorth> suck
19:23:29  <andythenorth> partially anyway
19:24:10  <andythenorth> high contrast isn't needed, and gridlines often harm the readability of a chart (not improve it)
19:24:44  <Terkhen> I agree about the black background, I meant showing payment vs speed
19:25:06  <andythenorth> interesting
19:25:18  <Pikka> goodnight wallyweb
19:25:20  <Pikka> and everyone else :)
19:25:23  <andythenorth> bye :)
19:25:27  *** Pikka [] has quit []
19:25:42  * andythenorth doesn't currently care what pays what rate anyway
19:26:03  <andythenorth> in the absence of any point to the game, I've been using it as a train set
19:26:04  <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: that makes a lot more sense than the current graphs
19:26:50  <andythenorth> I've never ever counted how many squares I'm delivering over :)
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19:27:51  <Eddi|zuHause> it would be interesting if things like the order or timetable window told the (air-) distance
19:28:17  <Eddi|zuHause> although you then get into trouble with 1-, 2- and infinity-distance
19:29:20  <Eddi|zuHause> it's one of the biggest inconsistencies of the game, because vehicle movement uses infinity-distance but payment uses 1-distance
19:30:36  <frosch123> vehicle movement does not use infinity-distance
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19:37:27  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, it does. vehicles are the same length across two diagonal rails as they are across one normal rail
19:37:38  <Eddi|zuHause> and speed is adjusted, too
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19:51:10  <andythenorth> meh
19:52:39  <andythenorth> copy, paste, shuffle, copy, paste, shuffle, copy paste, shuffle
19:54:42  <Rubidium> if you copy-paste, do it correctly :)
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19:55:41  * andythenorth hopes these oil tankers are worth it
19:59:12  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: speed is not. that is why wagons move slower when the engine runs horizontal/vertical direction. causing following trains to stop
20:00:17  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: great, makes the inconsistency even bigger
20:01:44  <Eddi|zuHause> how about we fix vehicles to use 2-distance instead? it's not a problem with original graphics, some newgrfs with long vehicles may have to adjust...
20:02:02  <Eddi|zuHause> but it may be the better choice for the future
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20:08:36  <Felicitus> hi
20:08:50  <Alberth> hi
20:09:51  <Felicitus> i just compiled ottd 1.0 from source on mac osx 10.6 and some files downloaded from bananas are corrupted - if I download them and do a gunzip and placing them into the content_download dir, it works
20:10:16  <Felicitus> could it be that my gzip lib is faulty?
20:10:30  <Rubidium> likely, zlib 1.2.4 is broken
20:10:53  <Rubidium> and we won't work around it either
20:11:22  <Felicitus> okay, do you know which version would work?
20:11:30  <Rubidium> as the developer of zlib has more-or-less said that a new version of zlib will be released before we plan to release 1.0.1
20:11:42  <Rubidium> probably anything less than
20:12:05  <Felicitus> okay, i will try that manually, thanks Rubidium
20:12:13  <Rubidium> although given the release date of 1.2.3 it's doubtful the content download system has been tested with < 1.2.3
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20:21:45  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: smatz * r19663 /trunk/src/command.cpp: -Fix: in rare cases, update of signals could be missed
20:40:06  <Felicitus> Rubidium: thank you very much! it works now
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20:47:14  <NoobCp> Would be nice if road vehicles treated intersections as roundabouts ;/ U turn!
20:47:44  <Jolteon> would be nice if there were actual roundabouts.
20:47:47  <Jolteon> but i like eye candy.
20:47:47  <Jolteon> so
20:48:18  <Rubidium> he likes to play toyland
20:48:23  <Rubidium> as that has the most candy
20:48:57  <frosch123> yeah, transporting thousands of bags of candy by ship is no fun
20:49:18  <Rubidium> I like the bubbles
20:49:21  <Rubidium> floating up
20:49:22  <Jolteon> Rubidium: oh god no.
20:49:26  <Jolteon> Toyland makes me cry :(
20:49:36  <Rubidium> toyland rules...
20:49:39  <Jolteon> .
20:49:45  <Jolteon> RubidiumRespect--;
20:49:48  <Rubidium> seriously, try it on a 1.0.0 server
20:49:51  <KenjiE20> Rubidium ++
20:49:56  <Jolteon> (Probably not valid in the language OpenTTD uses)
20:50:00  <frosch123> Jolteon: try with opengfx. it became one of the nicest climates
20:50:04  <Rubidium> you'll have very few people trying to destroy the map
20:51:05  <Rubidium> Jolteon: luckily my respect was already at a very low point, so you just caused an underflow.. thanks for all the extra respect!
20:51:32  <Jolteon> :(
20:52:18  <Terkhen> it is playable with OpenGFX, recently I had a HEQS & toyland game centered on sweets
20:53:58  <Terkhen> I doubt that heavy vehicles are designed with candyfloss in mind, but they worked nicely :P
21:00:11  <planetmaker> lool :-)
21:03:30  <frosch123> hmm, didn't heqs license disallow stuff violating good taste?
21:03:34  <NoobCp> Long in-city bus lines seem like a stupid idea in retrospect.
21:03:59  <andythenorth> frosch123: I can't disallow it, the GPL forbids that :)
21:04:07  <andythenorth> I just don't recommend it
21:04:10  <andythenorth> :P
21:04:17  <andythenorth> the GPL should have a 'taste' clause
21:05:00  <Rubidium> but candyfloss is good taste (for some)
21:06:36  *** woldemar1 [~woldemar@] has joined #openttd
21:06:40  <nighthawk_c_m> anyone have any experiences with the signals over bridges and tunnels?
21:07:39  <Eddi|zuHause> it's a bad feature
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21:08:48  <nighthawk_c_m> ah I just figured out the trick how to make them work
21:08:58  <Rubidium> yeah, don't put signals in tunnels that aren't used yet. When you start using the tunnels the signals will fail due to dust messing up measurements so you have to stop trains... and then the dust can settle for the next train after which the signals fail again
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21:10:13  <nighthawk_c_m> not if youz ste a block signal right in front and after the tunnel
21:10:34  <nighthawk_c_m> the driver misses the red signal in the dust, but is on the move due to the green one out in the sunshine
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21:11:20  <Terkhen> :P
21:12:06  <nighthawk_c_m> damn - it worked for two trains - now it fails again - any way to deactivate this if it is included in a client with multiple patche?
21:12:10  <nighthawk_c_m> patches*
21:12:31  <Terkhen> nighthawk_c_m: IIRC it had an advanced setting
21:14:09  <nighthawk_c_m> nah, I don't find anything in the advanced settings
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21:43:13  <nighthawk_c_m> no any idea on how to solve this problem?
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22:03:20  <|NoobCp|> Drag and drop station building over a previously placed station draws the cost of construction with no work done
22:03:27  *** |NoobCp| is now known as NoobCp
22:03:36  *** fonsinchen [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:15:58  <SmatZ> NoobCp: not really, with newgrf, it can change the station's layout
22:17:59  <NoobCp> (...with nothing new built) to improve my statement. Good to know SmatZ
22:19:36  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19664 /trunk/src/openttd.cpp: -Fix [FS#3749]: Crash of a dedicated server if the null blitter is overridden and (after a while) there is no company 0 on new year anymore
22:22:52  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: s/1.2.3/<
22:23:57  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: aha, i didn't know that...
22:28:03  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19665 /branches/1.0/ (51 files in 6 dirs):
22:28:03  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: [1.0] -Backport from trunk:
22:28:03  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: - Fix: Crash of a dedicated server if the null blitter is overridden and (after a while) there is no company 0 on new year anymore [FS#3749] (r19664)
22:28:03  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: - Fix: In rare cases, update of signals could be missed (r19663)
22:28:03  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: - Fix: Various improvements of command handling, missing error messages (r19658, r19657, r19656, r19655, r19654, r19637, r19633, r19621, r19616, r19605, r19604)
22:28:05  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: - Fix: Sorting industries by production was broken for NewGRF industries (r19538)
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22:39:23  <Terkhen> good night
22:39:31  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19666 /branches/1.0/src/lang/ (41 files in 2 dirs): [1.0] -Backport from trunk: many many string updates
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22:53:09  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19667 /tags/1.0.1-RC1/ (5 files in 4 dirs): -Release: 1.0.1-RC1
22:53:35  * Sacro files archlinux out of date
22:53:59  <Eddi|zuHause> you put RCs in there?
22:54:40  <planetmaker> wow. that's early for a 1.0.1, even though only an RC :-)
22:54:42  <Sacro> yes
22:54:53  <Sacro> there-s openttd{,-beta,-rc,-svn}
22:55:00  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: plenty of bugfixes recently
22:55:02  <planetmaker> but then... crash and desync fixes out there.
22:55:04  <Rubidium> why does archlinux package nosound? It's not needed anymore
22:55:15  <Sacro> where?
22:55:36  <Rubidium> oh, it's even nastier
22:55:44  <Rubidium> it's a touched
22:55:51  <frosch123> [00:54] <planetmaker> wow. that's early for a 1.0.1, even though only an RC :-) <- double numbers of downloads result in double number of releases or so
22:55:52  <Rubidium> Sacro: openttd-nullsfx
22:56:00  <Sacro> heh
22:56:06  <Sacro> in community i see
22:56:13  <Sacro> No idea, want me to bugreport it?>
22:56:14  <Rubidium> it does not even WORK
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22:57:13  <Sacro>         mkdir -p $pkgdir/usr/share/openttd/data
22:57:13  <Sacro>         touch $pkgdir/usr/share/openttd/data/
22:57:15  <Sacro> impressive
22:57:17  <planetmaker> haha @ frosch123
22:57:27  <Rubidium> Sacro: yes, especially because it simply doesn't work
22:57:32  <Rubidium> (anymore)
22:59:39  <Sacro> can openttd work without now?
22:59:44  <planetmaker> yes
23:00:06  <Sacro> bugfiled
23:00:08  <Eddi|zuHause> Sacro: especially it won't work with modified anymore
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23:03:19  <Nite_Owl> Hello all
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23:13:00  <SmatZ> @seen scarabeus
23:13:00  <DorpsGek> SmatZ: I have not seen scarabeus.
23:13:10  <SmatZ> wasn't he like openttd gentoo maintainer?
23:13:43  <Rubidium> SmatZ: that's bones, but I haven't seen him here
23:14:03  <Rubidium> Wizzleby seems to be working on it "at the moment" though, but then it's all in the hand of bones anyways
23:15:41  <SmatZ> :/
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23:16:24  <Rubidium> SmatZ: fun thing is every time he finds something to complain about
23:16:33  <Rubidium> now it's CFLAGS passed to CXXFLAGS
23:17:02  <Rubidium> but conceptually you can't prevent that; there's no sdl-config --cxx-flags
23:17:27  <SmatZ> :D
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23:19:03  <Eddi|zuHause> why does it matter which variable you assign the result of pgk-config --cflags to?
23:21:31  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: because, as I understand "Gentoo", it is FORBIDDEN to pass CFLAGS to a C++ compiler
23:22:52  <Eddi|zuHause> different thing: apparently if you double-click on a vehicle in the "available vehicles" list, you get a message "can't buy vehicle"...
23:23:10  <Eddi|zuHause> i would expect that to have been removed
23:25:46  <Rubidium> oh, pulling a mb here?
23:26:12  <planetmaker> :-D
23:26:28  <Rubidium> anyhow, work around for your bug: use 0.1.0!
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23:27:56  <Eddi|zuHause> what kind of MB behaviour are you referring to?
23:28:54  <Rubidium> "X is broken, I told about X already many times before"
23:29:15  <Eddi|zuHause> who said anything about telling before?
23:29:19  <Rubidium> the "I would expect that to have been removed" sounds quite like "I spoke about this before"
23:29:38  <Eddi|zuHause> no, it means "this behaviour is a total surprise to me"
23:29:59  <Eddi|zuHause> because i witnessed the removal of the "buy from the available vehicles window" feature
23:30:21  <Eddi|zuHause> but apparently only the button was removed, not the double-click buying
23:30:30  <Rubidium> after which Bjarni unified those windows (right?)
23:30:30  <Eddi|zuHause> so seems something was overlooked there
23:30:59  <Eddi|zuHause> that i can't tell...
23:31:14  <Eddi|zuHause> i have a natural aversion to gui code, so i don't pay attention ;)
23:32:19  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, my view is that this is a bug, shall i report it?
23:33:27  <Rubidium> yeah, preferably with a patch
23:34:13  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: frosch * r19668 /trunk/src/ (ai/api/ai_marine.cpp dock_gui.cpp water_cmd.cpp water_map.h): -Codechange: Use WaterClass in parameters of CMD_BUILD_CANAL.
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23:37:24  <Pulec> hello
23:37:51  <Pulec> what kind of setting of server is, when if people disconect from a game, their company just dissaper after a while
23:38:07  <Yexo> happy now Eddi|zuHause?
23:38:12  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: yexo * r19669 /trunk/src/build_vehicle_gui.cpp: -Fix: don't display an error message when double clicking on a vehicle in the 'available vehicles'-window
23:38:42  <Pulec> also i was quite suprised how many kids or stupid people play the game
23:38:51  <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: aww, i was just trying to write up a report ;)
23:39:13  <Pulec> they "accidentaly" build all kind of stupid roads on maps or even blocking newly built stations, such a shame
23:39:42  <Rubidium> Pulec: autoclean
23:41:31  <Pulec> cleaning the extra useless roads?
23:41:44  <Pulec> or off companys?
23:41:59  <Eddi|zuHause> clean the companies including all their posessions
23:42:00  <Yexo> autoclean is about removing companies after they're inactive for a while
23:42:01  <Rubidium> that removes companies, not the roads
23:42:16  <Eddi|zuHause> well, the roads become ownerless
23:42:24  <Eddi|zuHause> while rails etc. get removed
23:47:33  <Pulec> yes that is what is hapening
23:47:40  <Pulec> lot of server seems to have this setting...
23:47:49  <Pulec> why is that?
23:48:03  <Pulec> i see game year 2201 with no one there
23:48:21  <Pulec> just play transport some goods grow some cities and leave?
23:48:24  <Pulec> heh
23:49:12  *** mode/#openttd [+o glx] by DorpsGek
23:49:21  *** glx changed the topic of #openttd to: 1.0.0, 1.0.1-RC1 | Website: * (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | UTF-8 please | No Unauthorised Bots | Full English Breakfast only
23:49:29  *** mode/#openttd [-o glx] by DorpsGek
23:52:15  <OwenS> I must be posting on too many forums... I keep getting PMed :p
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