Log for #openttd on 24th April 2010:
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00:48:35  <ccfreak2k> Rubidium, wouldn't they have a tractive effort of like...two?
00:53:02  <Eddi|zuHause> no, tractive effort does not work that way
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07:30:31  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19702 /trunk/src/table/strgen_tables.h: -Add: {HEX} to strgen
07:32:23  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19703 /trunk/src/ (string.cpp string_type.h): -Add: hexadecimal string filter
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08:16:22  <Terkhen> good morning
08:20:40  <planetmaker> moin
08:21:09  <planetmaker> Terkhen: <-- I think that those sets simply don't offer refit options in that way
08:21:32  <planetmaker> thus "No Support" is... no support on the side of those sets wrt refit.
08:23:41  <Terkhen> I think that's what he means, but IIRC 2cc had some kind of refitting support
08:28:41  <planetmaker> hm... IIRC not. It uses MUs and livery override and cargo refit for certain wagons. So... no and yes
08:30:51  <Terkhen> I'm very interested in feedback about that case (trains with refittable engine and wagons)
08:31:03  <Terkhen> I bet something strange will happen in some cases
08:31:16  <planetmaker> :-)
08:34:50  <planetmaker> let's give it a quick look at...
08:34:59  <planetmaker> ... uh... full re-compile :S
08:37:44  <planetmaker> and I should switch back to gcc 4.2 from 4.0 as is current default...
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08:42:03  <planetmaker> Terkhen: do I need to activate that GUI?
08:42:17  <Terkhen> no, it is active by default
08:42:24  <planetmaker> hm...
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08:46:29  <planetmaker> ah. It only becomes effective, if something offers sub-types
08:46:41  <planetmaker> Yes, then 2cctrainset will not show the new GUI
08:48:09  <planetmaker> oh, Terkhen your channel topic is out-of date :-)
08:48:17  <planetmaker> -RC1
08:54:36  <andythenorth> hi hi
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08:55:30  <Terkhen> planetmaker: I don't know how to change it :P
08:55:32  <Terkhen> hi andythenorth
08:56:06  <planetmaker> Terkhen: if you got Dorpsgek access: @topic change 1 s/RC1/RC2/
08:56:16  <andythenorth> oh those crazy BROS people :P
08:56:19  <andythenorth> they drive me nuts
08:56:34  <andythenorth> it's like they all wilfully fuck up their set
08:57:44  <planetmaker> :-)
08:57:49  * andythenorth is also bothered by capacity vs size in different sets
08:57:56  <planetmaker> andythenorth: they simply miss a person as dedicated as you :-)
08:57:57  <andythenorth> but will have to live with it
08:58:34  <planetmaker> But then... people who code and draw - those are rare
08:59:02  <andythenorth> by contrast, the world is over-supplied with people who can argue on forums :|
08:59:16  <andythenorth> we should find a way to generate electricity from forum arguments
09:00:13  <Terkhen> arguing is easier :)
09:00:14  *** peter1138 changed the topic of #openttd to: 1.0.0, 1.0.1-RC2 | Website: * (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | UTF-8 please | No Unauthorised Bots | Full English Breakfast only | Don't ask to ask, just ask
09:00:25  <peter1138> (/topic <tab> <edit it>)
09:01:19  <peter1138> oh, but it needs ops, hehe
09:01:55  <planetmaker> I guess it needs an IRC client which supports the tab completion in that case
09:02:02  <andythenorth> Terkhen: the 'no support' report for your patch - maybe it's an 'empty state design' GUI problem
09:02:23  <andythenorth> you might need to show a greyed out right hand side bar
09:02:24  <planetmaker> no sub-types available, then it doesn't show
09:02:36  <andythenorth> otherwise stuff is changing to the player without any obvious causal reason.
09:02:54  <planetmaker> ^ that'd be nicer, yes
09:03:14  <andythenorth> making the player construct a mental model of what the software is doing == evil
09:03:57  * andythenorth has gone a bit nuts trying to solve 'what is the game doing' with FIRS texts :P
09:05:05  <Terkhen> hmmm... I thought that marking cargos that can split with (X subtypes) would be enough for that
09:06:40  <planetmaker> andythenorth: <-- you might want to checkout that repo :-)
09:06:52  <andythenorth> ooohh
09:08:13  <planetmaker> andythenorth: you might want to configure your bouncer such that it saves the last <whatever> lines spoken in a channel
09:08:22  <planetmaker> Then you'll get the highlights in your absense.
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09:08:34  * andythenorth doesn't understand the bouncer at all
09:08:40  <andythenorth> :D
09:09:07  <Terkhen> <andythenorth> you might need to show a greyed out right hand side bar <--- what do you mean with "right hand side bar"?
09:09:15  <andythenorth> sorry, right hand side panel
09:09:38  <andythenorth> right hand side panel with empty list, optionally with a 'no refits available' string
09:10:03  <andythenorth> it's technically a waste of pixels, but it will remove doubt in the players mind
09:11:33  <planetmaker> I'm with andy there
09:12:21  <planetmaker> or, alternatively, a button(?) with show/hide sub types
09:12:47  <Terkhen> it would simplify the code a lot, too... oh well, I was sure that clearly indicating the number of subtypes would be enough
09:13:16  <Terkhen> if there is a button, people will get confused when they try a vehicle with cargo subtypes for the first time (the refit button does not work!)
09:13:27  <planetmaker> well. But it is not, if there's no sub-type
09:13:32  <andythenorth> GUIs are never perfect
09:13:45  <planetmaker> and then one wonders what's the difference when it's not shown :-)
09:14:13  <andythenorth> hmmm
09:14:31  <andythenorth> players seem to ask a lot about 'why is the ship button greyed out in 1920?' etc.
09:14:53  <andythenorth> or is it the building tools they ask about?
09:14:55  * andythenorth forgets
09:15:45  <Alberth> maybe someone should write a patch that you cannot start at an earlier year than when the first vehicle is available.
09:16:55  <Terkhen> a player that has been playing a lot without subtypes will end up ignoring the button and will not remember it when he needs it... showing the right part of the window greyed out will confuse or annoy people when they are refitting to cargos without subtypes (that wasted space would annoy me for sure)
09:18:46  <planetmaker> Alberth: poor *someone*... Always doing the slave labour :-(
09:19:46  <Alberth> he is very lazy, I have yet to see anything finished by him ;)
09:20:05  <planetmaker> Terkhen: proposal: Make the options visible the same way as waiting cargo which comes from different origins (with a + which will add the additional lines)
09:20:40  <planetmaker> So no + if there is no option. And a + to allow showing the different options when available
09:21:06  <planetmaker> or similar to the adv. setting (which is the same concept)
09:21:25  <andythenorth>  /me is going to slightly contravene copyright in a GPL project and isn't going to say where
09:21:40  <planetmaker> hu?
09:21:47  <andythenorth> because life is short, and there are only so many ways to arrange pixels
09:26:10  <Prof_Frink>
09:31:08  <peter1138> you shouldn't even have said that...
09:34:08  <Terkhen> planetmaker: I agree, that would look nicer
09:34:20  <Terkhen> it would turn this into a longer project, though
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09:34:37  <planetmaker> hehe. Life is a heartless bitch, I know
09:34:51  <Terkhen> :P
09:35:03  <Rubidium> planetmaker: I guess I shouldn't highlight andythenorth anymore if he can't read it anyway :)
09:35:10  <planetmaker> :-)
09:35:19  <planetmaker> I was happy to relay it, though
09:35:30  * andythenorth should figure out the bouncer
09:35:56  <andythenorth> I get an annoying 'you have messages' message every time I login, but no way of reading them :P
09:36:03  <andythenorth> probably  RTFM
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09:37:17  * andythenorth ponders hovercraft propellors
09:37:30  <andythenorth> (A) how to draw (B) animation?
09:37:55  <Eddi|zuHause> ships with helicopter rotors ;=)
09:38:07  <andythenorth> we could then store a second cargo in the rotor sprite?
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09:41:17  <__ln__> that could damage fragile cargo
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09:44:41  <andythenorth>  /me ends up not violating copyright :P
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09:44:53  <andythenorth> my /me is broken :o
09:45:04  <planetmaker> you're to liberal with spaces
09:45:24  <planetmaker> "/" != " /"
09:45:42  <Alberth> 'mail'  ?
09:45:50  <Alberth> andythenorth: ^
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09:45:54  <andythenorth> well I have plenty of spaces to spare
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09:45:55  <andythenorth> mail
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09:46:30  <Alberth> if you have messages at a terminal
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09:49:47  <OwenS> Hmm interesting... looks like Galapagos went down
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09:53:35  <andythenorth> funny how many lighting 'mistakes' there are in the default sprites
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10:01:12  <planetmaker> He... the German army should re-consider their ads: "Looking for a secure job? Come on in!" is not quite appropriate considering the current body count from Afghanistan...
10:01:36  <Rubidium> planetmaker: did they lose their job?
10:01:53  <planetmaker> In a certain way, yes
10:01:54  <Rubidium> secure != safe
10:02:05  <planetmaker> Well. I could also translate "save".
10:02:09  <planetmaker> It's the same German word
10:02:45  <planetmaker> "Du suchst einen sicheren Arbeitsplatz? Komm doch mal rein."
10:02:53  <planetmaker> sicher = safe, secure
10:04:17  <__ln__> Do you get to Afghanistan without volunteering?
10:04:59  <Rubidium> true, though the safe in this context is more towards the secure than towards the no-injuries part
10:05:32  <andythenorth> planetmaker: I was thinking about town growth cargos & newgrf.  Would be useful if growth could depend on both cargo delivered and cargo transported
10:06:17  <planetmaker> __ln__: if you go to the army for anything else then the compulsory service: then you could in principle be forced to go. Dunno if they do.
10:06:40  <planetmaker> Rubidium: sure it's meant in the "secure" way, but still ;-)
10:06:57  <planetmaker> andythenorth: the latter doesn't seem possible IIRC.
10:07:38  <planetmaker> only the amount of serviced station matters. So in a way it is already considered.
10:07:50  <planetmaker> but cannot be influenced by newgrfs
10:08:28  <andythenorth> it could be patched for.  The town growth code looks...not simple....but understandable
10:08:47  <andythenorth> planetmaker: perhaps it's time to venture to C++ again
10:09:18  <planetmaker> hm...
10:10:21  * andythenorth is currently in a world of pixels though.  Lots of nice ship renders arrived for painting
10:10:31  <planetmaker> :-)
10:11:21  <planetmaker> I have the feeling that adding "just another way to manipulate town growth" would not quite do. It would need re-thinking the concept and making it such that it could be accessed and extended
10:11:34  <andythenorth> maybe
10:11:41  <planetmaker> But I haven't dived deeply into it, so I may be wrong
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10:12:02  <andythenorth> for me this is driven by the need for Food to be useful in Temperate + also a bit more of an interesting challenge
10:12:11  <andythenorth> but I think maybe it needs more thought about gameplay
10:12:20  <andythenorth> why care if cities grow or not?
10:12:32  <planetmaker> more passengers -> more revenue
10:12:45  <planetmaker> and big(est) city can be a challange :-)
10:14:56  <andythenorth> I keep thinking about a goals framework
10:15:15  <andythenorth> adding arbitrary newgrf control of stuff here and there might be quite fragemented
10:15:32  <andythenorth> it would be nice to design out some kind of framework concept
10:16:07  <Terkhen> IMO a goal framework would work best if implemented by scripts (something like NoAI)
10:16:42  <Terkhen> but probably it would need some kind of newgrf support too
10:16:43  <andythenorth> from what I've seen of NoAI that makes sense
10:16:47  <Eddi|zuHause> you need to associate a script with a scenario
10:17:22  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I'm not sure.  Do you suggest that for gameplay reasons, or for the implementation?
10:18:12  <Terkhen> some scripts could be generic enough to be used in any map, others would have to check the current map and disable themselves if they can't work in that map
10:18:24  <planetmaker> Goals similarly accessed as NoAI seems like a sane concept to me.
10:18:46  <Terkhen> others (referencing specific towns and industries) would need an specific scenario
10:18:53  <andythenorth> yes
10:19:01  <planetmaker> yup
10:19:07  <andythenorth> but 'grow a random town to xx inhabitants' wouldn't
10:19:17  <andythenorth> what goals would be fun?
10:19:31  <Eddi|zuHause> basically these scripts should be an extension/replacement to the current subsidy system
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10:20:07  <Terkhen> probably goals that we already set in our games :)
10:20:30  <planetmaker> town size, transported cargo (per town, global), station ratings, ... average, minimum, maximum vehicle income
10:21:01  <planetmaker> number of connected towns, industries (per type, global), number of transported goods and types thereof
10:21:31  <planetmaker> use of certain vehicle(s) at a certain date, at a certain place
10:21:40  <andythenorth>
10:21:48  <andythenorth> Hmmm
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10:22:01  <andythenorth> seems like a forum thread might actually be better for discussing this
10:22:05  <andythenorth> IRC is going to suck
10:22:22  <planetmaker> it's not archiv-able
10:22:45  <andythenorth> I'll start a thread.  We can ignore the dumb suggestions
10:23:06  <andythenorth> Suggestions forum or Dev forum?
10:23:11  <Terkhen> for this topic there will be a lot
10:24:36  <planetmaker> scenario scripting would also allow for scriptable local authority sensitiviy for certain actions
10:24:43  <Terkhen> suggestions
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10:25:05  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm fairly sure there are plenty of these threads already
10:25:30  <Eddi|zuHause> so unless you have a good outline of your suggestion, i don't think opening a thread will help anyone
10:25:53  <andythenorth> I need a list of plausible goals before I can do the outline, and copy-paste from IRC == suck
10:26:02  <andythenorth> Wiki?
10:26:04  <Terkhen> a wiki page?
10:27:46  * andythenorth has to learn how a wiki works :P
10:27:52  <Eddi|zuHause> well, imho the first milestone would be to mimic the current subsidies
10:28:23  <Eddi|zuHause> i.e. "bring at least one cargo from A to B"
10:28:42  <andythenorth> frick, how do I add a page to a wiki?
10:28:49  <andythenorth> RTFM
10:29:01  <Eddi|zuHause> just type the page name you want to create into the url
10:29:14  <Eddi|zuHause> then it'll ask you to create the page
10:29:37  <Eddi|zuHause> alternately, create a wiki link from another page, then click on that
10:30:35  <andythenorth> wikis are bonkers
10:30:50  <Eddi|zuHause> what's not bonkers?
10:32:19  <andythenorth> newline conversion bah
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10:34:51  <andythenorth>
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10:36:27  <Terkhen> one of the most frequent requests is to make something happen when some conditions are met
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10:37:23  <andythenorth> Like a message, or an end screen?  Or some other game event - like make a new vehicle available?
10:38:13  <Terkhen> I was referring to in game events, yes
10:39:11  <andythenorth> what sort of events?  Town growth?  Industry open / close?
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10:39:42  <Terkhen> things like that, yes
10:41:25  <andythenorth> we should probably add those to the wiki too then?
10:43:31  <Terkhen> I'm not sure how feasible it is... the script can't check everything
10:43:44  <andythenorth> I'd be worried about conflicts with newgrf
10:43:52  <Terkhen> with that kind of things, you expect an inmediate response
10:44:09  <andythenorth> so much is controllable by newgrf that I think we could drown in complexity
10:45:16  * andythenorth thinks about the existing performance ratings
10:45:22  <andythenorth> they would need to go
10:45:37  <Terkhen> Indeed, I think that everything that sounds like it should be controlled by newgrf should be left out of the goal scripts
10:45:47  <Terkhen> (even if it can't)
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10:48:42  <andythenorth> do we know the length of a player's routes?
10:48:57  <Terkhen> I don't think so
10:49:13  <andythenorth> we have number of tiles I assume (for the property maintenance calculation)?
10:49:18  <andythenorth> player tiles that is
10:49:36  <Terkhen> IIRC it counts the number of stations or station tiles, but I'm not sure
10:49:50  <andythenorth> do we know average speeds?
10:49:55  <andythenorth> probably not
10:50:02  <planetmaker> nope
10:50:03  <Terkhen> no
10:50:12  <andythenorth> revenue per ton / mile .....nope :P
10:50:32  <andythenorth> planetmaker: I've added your suggestions:
10:50:40  <planetmaker> thanks
10:53:14  <planetmaker> I added two more generic events
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10:54:16  <Rubidium> Terkhen: station facilities
10:54:26  * andythenorth compiles
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10:55:12  <sulai> hi there =)
10:55:27  <Terkhen> hi sulai
10:56:00  <planetmaker> hi sulai
10:56:09  <sulai> I just freshly checked out r19530, which is ottd 1.0.0
10:56:11  <sulai> But on title screen, it shows r19527. Strange isn't it?
10:56:29  <planetmaker> only the svn tag is 1.0.0
10:56:38  <Rubidium> then you didn't checkout 1.0.0, but trunk at that revision
10:56:42  <KenjiE20> did you check out trun.... ^
10:57:04  <planetmaker> :-D
10:57:11  * andythenorth improves the appearance of hovercraft renders, and no copyright was violated :D
10:57:33  <sulai> yeah thats true, thank you ^^
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10:58:34  <sulai> how are you doing planetmaker
10:58:36  <sulai> you seem to be a true long-term ottd addict ;)
10:58:47  <planetmaker> :-D
10:58:54  <planetmaker> fine thanks. How're you?
10:58:58  <planetmaker> you left :-(
10:59:16  <sulai> well I come back regulary :D
10:59:22  <planetmaker> :-)
11:00:03  <sulai> I think about refreshing Gremnons patch pack. He changed his sets of patches a lot and I think the earlier ones were better :)
11:00:36  <planetmaker> better go for an entirely new one :-)
11:00:52  <planetmaker> I haven't seen a PP for quite some time, though. At least not much fuss about PPs recently
11:01:46  <planetmaker> but then... mostly not much need :-)
11:02:05  <planetmaker> I'd "need" station_gui, newgrf_gui and sort_signs.
11:02:08  <sulai> true...gremnons patch pack thread is sleeping since a month or so
11:02:42  <planetmaker> only?
11:03:53  <andythenorth> Rubidium: the debug stuff is pretty awesome
11:04:20  <sulai> hm we'll see how far my patch pack plans get... :)
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11:04:56  <sulai> hm how do I update my existing svn location to a tag without doing a new check out?
11:05:09  <Rubidium> svn help switch
11:05:39  <andythenorth> Rubidium: I've never coded stations....but it looks like the debug would be extremely helpful to station coders as well :)
11:05:59  <andythenorth> Rubidium: anything I can do to help with it?
11:06:10  <Rubidium> andythenorth: try land area information
11:06:39  <andythenorth> try using it, or coding it?
11:06:44  <Rubidium> build a NewGRF station/house/...
11:07:01  <Rubidium> and get the "land area information" about that; you'll see the bug icon there too
11:07:09  <andythenorth> I was using that already ;)
11:07:12  <Rubidium> this is because station NewGRFs are tile based
11:07:24  <andythenorth> that's how I found the station stuff
11:07:37  <Rubidium> same you can get industry tiles, house tiles, railtype
11:08:31  <andythenorth> the only improvement I can think of right now is escapes for some values
11:08:42  <andythenorth> otherwise it's pretty outstanding
11:09:08  <andythenorth> ha ha, you've even done vehicles :)
11:09:24  <andythenorth> that's a big win
11:09:35  <Rubidium> andythenorth: escapes in what sense?
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11:09:55  <andythenorth> hmm, escapes is probably the wrong term here
11:10:06  <andythenorth> for example, dates - convert the hex value to date format
11:10:47  <Rubidium> hmm, that might be technically possible
11:11:36  <andythenorth> and possibly format variable number / value in different colours...
11:11:45  <andythenorth> ...but sometimes that can look worse than all one colour
11:11:59  <Rubidium> that's (currently) quite hard as it uses lots of hardcoded strings
11:12:03  <andythenorth> nvm
11:12:56  <Rubidium> anyhow, I seem to remember that there are some results that put like cargo type and more bits into a varaction2 variable which makes "pretty printing" it harder
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11:14:48  <andythenorth> apart from date format, I see no other improvements needed.  Maybe see what Pikka, George etc make of it?
11:15:19  <andythenorth> From an industry point of view, if I need more debug info I'll push values into persistent storage
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11:17:52  <andythenorth> this is going to sound obsessive, but do we like the colour used for the decks of FISH ships?
11:18:14  <andythenorth>
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11:19:53  <Alberth> I'd use different colours for the parts where people walk and the parts that are just covers for the cargo
11:19:54  *** sulai_ is now known as sulai
11:20:37  <Alberth> then you don't get so much yellow-ish colour with the freight ships
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11:29:41  <andythenorth> Alberth:
11:29:47  <andythenorth> I have a few other ideas for this
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11:33:04  <Alberth> I like that
11:35:51  <__ln__> can it carry vehicles?
11:37:55  <andythenorth> no
11:38:32  * andythenorth ponders a 2CC version of the hatch covers
11:41:16  <Eddi|zuHause> i was missing a passenger ferry between the utility vessel and the small vehicle ferry
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11:42:04  <andythenorth> there are more ships being worked on :)
11:42:27  * andythenorth wonders: improve sprites for current ships, or draw new ones?
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11:46:36  <Alberth> decisions, decisions...
11:47:00  <andythenorth> draw new ones of course :)
11:47:09  <Terkhen> both!
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11:47:54  <andythenorth> meh
11:49:42  <Terkhen> if not, draw new ones :P
11:50:23  <__ln__> andythenorth: don't you think a vehicle ferry that can't carry vehicles is a little like oil tanker that can't carry oil?
11:51:08  <andythenorth> __ln__: 'vehicles' isn't a cargo in any of the industry chains I use :P
11:53:24  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19704 /trunk/src/ (ai/api/ai_rail.cpp newgrf.cpp newgrf.h table/pricebase.h): -Codechange: unify the style of GSF enums; now they're plural instead of mixed
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12:37:00  * andythenorth hates pixels
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12:39:49  <planetmaker> use voxels!
12:39:54  <peter1138> urgh
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12:53:50  <Juicy> wow
12:54:03  <Juicy> theres really alot of ppl in here
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12:55:08  <nighthawk_c_m> ^^ yepp
12:55:09  <TrueBrain> LOL!
12:55:13  <TrueBrain> really?!
12:55:21  <TrueBrain> how often do you join a channel to say just that :p
12:55:57  <Rubidium> ;)
12:56:07  <Rubidium> TrueBrain: once?
13:00:00  <TrueBrain> lol @ Rubidium
13:00:02  <TrueBrain> you are crazy :p
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13:22:30  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19705 /trunk/src/ (settings.cpp table/settings.h): -Change: reinitialise the windows when changing the newgrf_developer_tools setting
13:27:34  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19706 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 2 dirs): -Add: support for the (NewGRF) debug box
13:35:30  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19707 /trunk/src/ (7 files): -Add: helper functions to instantiate/fill ResolverObjects
13:36:41  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19708 /trunk/ (9 files in 5 dirs): -Add: NewGRF "debugging" window and data tables; should be a useful tool for NewGRF developers to get some insights into the value of some variables
13:39:23  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19709 /trunk/src/ (8 files): -Feature: NewGRF debugging/inspecting of (primarily) enabled callbacks and values of variables
13:41:19  * andythenorth ponders svn up
13:47:09  * andythenorth decides painting hovercraft sucks
13:53:41  <Prof_Frink> Rubidium: r20k before the end of the month?
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14:09:34  <andythenorth> hmm
14:09:52  <andythenorth> sprites for a load of containers....2CC?
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14:26:22  * andythenorth plans a set that is entirely made up of hopper cars.  Easy to draw :P
14:26:45  <Terkhen> is that much work?
14:26:50  <Terkhen> (2CC containers)
14:27:26  <andythenorth> containers are easy.  Hovercraft are not.  Even though it's mostly a flat deck with one cabin
14:27:37  <andythenorth> + propellors and rudders + stuff :P
14:28:55  <Terkhen> then I think that it will be a nice touch
14:29:24  <andythenorth> I have several angles complete
14:29:43  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: smatz * r19710 /trunk/src/ (depot_gui.cpp vehicle_gui.cpp vehicle_gui.h): -Codechange: deduplicate GUI code for starting/stopping vehicles
14:30:29  <andythenorth> all the greeble on the deck is a pisser to draw:
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14:49:25  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't see why containers should be company colours
14:55:31  <andythenorth> what colour would you prefer?
14:57:52  <Terkhen> <-- I like this one, perhaps less dark
15:01:19  <Terkhen> <-- here is the other experiment: double click in a vehicle at the engine list to show a graph for that engine
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15:02:46  <andythenorth> Terkhen: those graphs look complicated but useful
15:02:52  <andythenorth> and also cool :)
15:03:10  * andythenorth has 1.5 more angles to paint
15:03:27  <Terkhen> they are an "advanced" feature, yes
15:04:01  <amalloy1> spectating an online game i saw this station design: - it looks to me like the two path signals closest to the station are ruining the pathing idea; am i right or is there something i don't get yet?
15:04:28  *** r0b0tb0y [] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
15:04:51  <amalloy1> (i ask cause i'm surprised that someone who builds such a neat junction would get the station wrong like that)
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15:07:28  <Alberth> you may be right, the easiest way to check is to build it yourself and do a small test.
15:07:51  <Alberth> on the other hand, if you remove those signals, a train would stop at the outer signals
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15:08:38  <amalloy1> yeah, which i thought was the point - stop before committing yourself to a platform since you don't know which will free up first
15:08:45  <amalloy1> but you're right, i can just test it
15:08:52  <SmatZ> that X is bad :-p
15:09:38  <Alberth> normally, you'd make a platform selection closer to the station
15:10:27  <Alberth> then you also don't need those bridges, which would make it a nicer solution imho
15:11:48  <amalloy1> i'll take your word for it: i can't really visualize hypothetical stations yet
15:12:26  <Alberth> if you move the X between the bridge and the station, there is nothing left under the bridge, and they can be eliminated.
15:14:34  <Alberth> hmm, the signals right next to the platform are also not needed.
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15:14:56  <OwenS> Alberth: removing them means you're relying on PBS' anti-train-crash protection
15:15:07  <OwenS> People stil build with such tight corners? :(
15:15:19  * Alberth does :)
15:15:36  <Alberth> OwenS: but you rely on that anyway at all other PBS blocks
15:16:01  <OwenS> Alberth: No you don't. The anti crash protection only comes into play at a) stations without signals b) train reversals
15:16:04  <OwenS> 1 tile corners are ugly and slow :(
15:16:10  <amalloy1> yeah, the closest signals aren't needed but aren't really a liability. and they're insurance against user error: if i had a nickel for every time i removed a signal and caused a train crash seconds afterwards...
15:16:45  <peter1138> i just think it looks better with them :)
15:17:09  <Alberth> amalloy1: you should wait until all trains have passed :)
15:18:05  <amalloy1> yeah, i know. i'm usually planning to just "move" the signal or something and i forget. like i said: user error *chuckle*
15:18:34  <amalloy1> speaking of crashes, i'm watching this guy's trains blow up about six of his trucks at a different station. so i think i'll avoid taking lessons from him
15:20:48  <Alberth> OwenS: is this anti-crash protection described somewhere?
15:21:14  <Alberth> amalloy1: I often stop a train at a previous block first
15:22:19  <amalloy1> man, how do i keep ending up with amalloy1? i don't know a lot about irc and i tell my client to make my amalloy but it silently adds a 1. is there a name conflict somewhere?
15:22:23  <OwenS> Alberth: probably inside the YaPP code ;-)
15:22:45  <OwenS> [16:22] [Error] amalloy: No such nick/channel.
15:23:08  <SmatZ> OwenS: he can be hidden
15:23:22  <OwenS> SmatZ: aah true
15:23:27  <amalloy1> it would be weird, though. it's not a very common last name
15:23:38  <amalloy1> and none of my relatives play ottd :P
15:23:46  <OwenS> Not just OTTD
15:23:50  <OwenS> Lots of projects on OFTC
15:23:52  <KenjiE20> oftc is way bigger than that
15:23:56  <OwenS> What happens if you try "/nick amalloy" now
15:24:02  *** amalloy1 is now known as amalloy
15:24:06  <amalloy> it works, apparently
15:24:19  <OwenS> No complaints from Nickserv?
15:24:23  <KenjiE20> well, see if you got any evil notices from ^
15:24:26  <amalloy> nope
15:24:51  <KenjiE20> it's unregistered too
15:24:56  <KenjiE20> I suggest you register it now
15:25:00  <Alberth> OwenS: that is on my 'still to read' list :)
15:25:09  <amalloy> how do i do that?
15:25:10  <KenjiE20> /msg nickserv help
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15:29:47  <amalloy> well i succeeded in registering the name, but pidgin (my client) seems not to send the password right, even though it has a password field; i had to msg nickserv manually
15:30:29  <Alberth> correct, you have to do that in another way
15:31:07  <KenjiE20> that'll be the server password
15:31:29  <Alberth> yes, and you don't want it there.
15:31:37  <amalloy> ah
15:31:50  <KenjiE20> unless you're on freenode
15:31:53  <KenjiE20> :P
15:32:03  <KenjiE20> not sure if pidgin has a way to autosend
15:32:09  <KenjiE20> it's IRC isn't the best
15:32:13  <amalloy> well i'm reading up on some irc wiki
15:32:18  <amalloy> so i'll see
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15:38:05  <Alberth> amalloy:
15:39:35  <amalloy> yeah, i found something similar
15:39:57  <amalloy> working on it, thanks
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15:41:03  <amalloy> aha! all set. thanks lots
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16:23:38  <Zwoep> started company in 1990 and had a range of like 6 or 7 types of engines to choose from. now its 2050 and i only got the SH40 left
16:23:40  <Zwoep>
16:23:43  <Zwoep> is that normal?
16:24:15  <SmatZ> yes, if you didn't enable "Vehicles never expire" setting
16:24:27  <Zwoep> ic
16:25:55  <Zwoep> thnx
16:29:39  <Eddi|zuHause> Zwoep: you're supposed to build maglevs at that time
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16:33:14  <james> I need some help...
16:33:30  *** james is now known as Guest1142
16:34:04  <Guest1142> I need some code to loop through all the elements in a vector, check each item to see if it is correct, and if no correct item is found, create a new one
16:39:15  <Alberth> sure you are asking this in the right channel?
16:39:45  <SmatZ> james is always asking here C++ related questions
16:39:48  <Guest1142> I'm modifying OpenTTD code
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16:43:04  <Alberth> usually the best way to find out how something is used, is to find a use in the existing code
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16:48:15  * OwenS wishes road vehicles didn't have to slow down for corners
16:49:10  <peter1138> without diagonal roads, there can be no road curve radius...
16:49:24  <OwenS> How is RV curve speed determined at the moment?
16:49:38  <OwenS> Hardcoded or NewGRF?
16:50:32  <Terkhen> hardcoded, with both original and realistic acceleration
16:50:45  <OwenS> Seems like a notable omission from the NewGRF system...
16:53:26  * andythenorth doesn't want to set RV curve speeds
16:53:54  <OwenS> Nobody said the hardcoded behaviour had to go away
16:54:12  <OwenS> But, for example, one would expect some trams to be better at doing curves than others
16:54:12  <andythenorth> :)
16:56:56  <OwenS> Hmm... Trams appear to not have tractive effort eitehr :s
16:57:12  <Terkhen> what set?
16:57:25  <OwenS> Japanese. I presume its a new-ish feature?
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16:58:02  <Terkhen> yes, some sets still don't support it completely
16:58:25  <peter1138> ish
16:58:29  <OwenS> Shame, because fast trams shouldn't have to slow down to clime slopes :p
16:58:45  <peter1138> "realistic" rv acceleration predates trams
16:58:50  * andythenorth thought trams did have tractive effort?
16:59:07  <OwenS> Presumably they haven't added it/designed for TTDP(? on the latter)
16:59:13  <Terkhen> rvs and trams without a TE value use the default value, though
16:59:48  * peter1138 climbs OwenS' clime
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17:00:02  <OwenS> whoops
17:00:14  <OwenS> I'm tempted to replace this bridge with a canal...
17:00:28  <peter1138> waterways need to be cheaper
17:00:44  <peter1138> hmm, is there a newgrf that'll do that...
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17:13:30  <andythenorth> meh, unfinished angles :P
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17:45:55  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: translators * r19711 /trunk/src/lang/ (8 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
17:45:55  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:55  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: catalan - 24 changes by arnau
17:45:55  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: french - 9 changes by glx
17:45:55  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: korean - 2 changes by junho2813
17:45:57  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: maltese - 69 changes by peter88823
17:45:57  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: polish - 7 changes by xine
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17:48:25  <Eddi|zuHause> wow... peter aged a lot :p
17:48:49  <Alberth> this is his elder twin brother :p
17:49:19  <Eddi|zuHause> twin brothers tend to be not much older than a couple minutes :p
17:49:33  <peter1138> hurr
17:50:21  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm bored, i need a new game...
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17:50:35  <Prof_Frink> Global thermonuclear war?
17:50:47  <Eddi|zuHause> i said a _new_ game :p
17:51:16  <peter1138> closedttd
17:51:28  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm through most of the old games that i have
17:51:46  <peter1138> bbc basic assembler
17:51:49  <peter1138> good game that
17:52:22  <ashb> <-- Global thermonuclear war ;)
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17:58:38  <Alberth> peter1138: I played that one too, it was good fun
18:00:59  <Devroush> <Eddi|zuHause> i'm through most of the old games that i have > rollercoaster tycoon!
18:01:28  * andythenorth ponders whether hovercraft should show 'spray' whilst loading
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18:04:32  * andythenorth ponders hovercraft 'fuel cost' factor vs. normal ships
18:04:42  <andythenorth> three turbines vs one diesel piston engine
18:04:48  <andythenorth> I reckon...3
18:11:32  <OwenS> andythenorth: A turbine consumes more fuel than a piston engine
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18:15:46  * andythenorth wonders if a hovercraft should also be obscenely expensive to buy
18:16:01  <andythenorth> probably not
18:16:14  <OwenS> andythenorth: IRL the running cost is at least doubled per engine
18:16:39  <OwenS> And they are also obscenely expensive to buy ;-)
18:16:54  <OwenS> On the basis that most TTD players are rolling in money... is cost a big issue? :p
18:17:18  <andythenorth> probably not
18:17:48  * andythenorth compares hovercraft to AV8 helicopter costs
18:17:54  <andythenorth> and decides to increase hovercraft cost :P
18:20:21  <OwenS> Its kind of ironic as jet engines are actually pretty efficient :p
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18:24:06  <Eddi|zuHause> ships should be cheap because they are so slow, hovercraft kinda circumvent the slowness, thus should be properly expensive
18:24:42  <OwenS> Shame OpenTTD doesn't support more realistically scaled ships
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18:24:51  <OwenS> Then we could have them be the huge behmoths they should be
18:25:05  <Eddi|zuHause> "err:seh:setup_exception_record stack overflow 1608 bytes in thread 002d eip 7edd71ae esp 00240ce8 stack 0x240000-0x241000-0x340000" <-- that doesn't sound right...
18:25:09  <peter1138> huge cargo just doesn't work
18:25:20  <OwenS> why?
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18:25:27  <peter1138> not enough cargo
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18:25:48  <OwenS> Depends what the ship is transporting
18:25:55  <peter1138> there's a newgrf which changes capacties to be more 'realistic'
18:25:57  <OwenS> If its transporting from multiple industries it works..
18:26:03  <peter1138> the ships just sit there for ever
18:26:08  <andythenorth> I could use some 2,000t ships right now
18:26:10  <peter1138> also
18:26:23  <andythenorth> FISH maxes out at 1,080t
18:26:24  <peter1138> you should then be able to mix cargo types
18:26:32  <OwenS> That is true
18:26:34  <Eddi|zuHause> OwenS: you don't service one mine with 100 trains, why should you service one oil rig with a 100-train-capacity ship?
18:26:38  <peter1138> except on oil tankers :)
18:26:41  <andythenorth> and we're back to articulated ships :P
18:26:50  <OwenS> No need for articulation
18:26:53  <andythenorth> might as well
18:26:55  <peter1138> just hidden parts
18:26:56  <andythenorth> it would be useful
18:26:58  <OwenS> Just a way to make them stay away from shores
18:26:59  <Eddi|zuHause> no, we need a "container" vehicle type
18:27:01  <peter1138> like bellyflopters
18:27:25  <OwenS> Eddi|zuHause: You shouldn't. Unfortunately, OpenTTD doesn't model undersea pipelines :p
18:27:29  <Eddi|zuHause> a ship takes containers, no matter what's in them
18:27:51  <Eddi|zuHause> OwenS: pipelines don't make any sense in openttd
18:28:02  * andythenorth now has hovercraft that cost 7x more to run than the equivalent size ship, and 5x as much to buy
18:28:07  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, get patching :D
18:28:29  <OwenS> Eddi|zuHause: Thats true. Therefore, large oil tankers won't work
18:28:31  <andythenorth> and the hovercraft are 3x as fast :P
18:28:39  <OwenS> Unless one was to drop all the oil from other stations off at an oil rig
18:39:50  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19712 /trunk/src/table/newgrf_debug_data.h: -Fix (r19708): if the parent was a town, the parent wasn't shown
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19:07:06  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19713 /trunk/src/newgrf_industries.cpp: -Fix [NewGRF]: passing some invalid data to industry variable 67/68 could cause a crash
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19:29:13  * andythenorth doesn't understand why running costs change in FISH.  I set them correctly, then I play the game some time later and find they are incorrect.  Inflation is *off*
19:30:38  <andythenorth> no other grfs are loaded :|
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19:38:47  <andythenorth> meh
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19:40:11  <temoto> Hello.
19:40:20  <Terkhen> hello temoto
19:40:22  <temoto> What's fastest way to grow a city?
19:40:39  <temoto> (including cheats and console commands)
19:40:57  <Rubidium> the scenario editor
19:41:01  <KenjiE20> ^
19:41:23  <temoto> uhh scenario editor can edit saved games?
19:41:58  <temoto> I want to grow few cities in my current game, not in new one.
19:42:35  <glx> just put a bus network in the town
19:42:36  <andythenorth> setting vehicle costs is annoying  :\
19:44:34  <temoto> glx, one passenger train station in town is not enough? (with lots of incoming passengers)
19:47:06  * andythenorth wonders about a nice sound effect for hovercraft
19:48:24  <temoto> Is 'fund new buildings' idempotent?
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20:02:19  <Eddi|zuHause> temoto: my educated guess would be: not entirely, using it twice won't double the effect, but the second time will reset the timer until it runs out
20:02:35  <Eddi|zuHause> but that might not be what the code actually does
20:04:28  * andythenorth needs some names for hovecraft
20:04:34  <andythenorth> or hovercraft even
20:04:57  <Terkhen> generic names?
20:05:34  <Terkhen> or "Somecompanyname Hovercraft"?
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20:06:25  <andythenorth> I'm feeling like using the names of rivers for the hovercaft
20:07:51  <temoto> Eddi|zuHause, thank you.
20:08:22  <temoto> Eddi|zuHause, what timer?
20:09:04  <Eddi|zuHause> temoto: "fund new buildings" makes city growth speed up for a while
20:09:16  <Eddi|zuHause> like a month or so... not sure
20:09:40  <Eddi|zuHause> you see whether it is active at the amount of pavements on your roads
20:14:04  <temoto> thanks
20:16:03  <andythenorth> when a ship has a higher top speed unloaded than loaded....should I set 'max speed' to the lower or higher speed?
20:16:26  <andythenorth> from a player point of view
20:18:01  <temoto> btw, openttd devs, thank you so much, this game is fantastic.
20:19:30  <glx> andythenorth: I'd say the important speed for the player is the full loaded
20:19:51  <andythenorth> I think so.  Otherwise I get bug reports saying "the top speed is wrong" :P
20:20:10  <glx> you'll still get them ;)
20:20:16  <Turgid> andythenorth, I'd prefer the max speed to say the unloaded speed, personally.
20:20:54  <Terkhen> I agree with glx
20:21:04  <Turgid> Or maybe have it split like 70/50 or whathaveyou
20:21:32  <frosch123> for ais you should use some weighted mean, so it gives the average speed for both directions
20:22:49  <andythenorth> bah
20:23:07  <andythenorth> it's all too complicated :P
20:23:15  <Alberth> andythenorth: what about programming black 'censured' boxes in front of the speed ?   :)
20:23:42  <andythenorth> how about a patch to remove all strings?
20:23:56  <andythenorth> in fact, can't we just delete all translation files, no patch needed?
20:24:31  <Alberth> you may get lots of "undefined string" texts :)
20:24:49  <Prof_Frink> Delete the "undefined string" string.
20:25:08  * Alberth hopes that one is hard-coded
20:25:23  <frosch123> andythenorth: var 43 could provide human/ai, so you can return different values
20:25:31  <Alberth> perhaps better make all strings empty instead
20:25:33  <frosch123> (though currently var 43 misses that info in purchase list...)
20:26:23  <andythenorth> how about I finish the speed code and release this hovercraft?  Then you guys can advise...
20:27:31  <Alberth> good plan
20:28:08  <Terkhen> :)
20:31:42  <Eddi|zuHause> hm.. at a train length of 1,97m how many 26m/87 wagons do fit in?
20:32:01  <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 26/87
20:32:01  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 0.298850574713
20:32:13  <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 26/87*6
20:32:13  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 1.79310344828
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20:51:59  <andythenorth> new FISH on Bananas
20:55:12  <Prof_Frink> Fish and banana? An unusual combination.
20:56:04  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: smatz * r19714 /trunk/src/ (8 files in 3 dirs): -Feature: ctrl+click on a vehicle to start/stop it
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21:03:54  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: terkhen * r19715 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: Rename all appareances of shiplift to lock.
21:08:51  <SpComb> more magical uses of Ctrl
21:09:13  <andythenorth> quite the magic key that one
21:15:23  <temoto> BTW does anyone maintains a MacOSX binary build?
21:15:57  <glx> no
21:16:15  <glx> at least not officially
21:16:27  <andythenorth> but the OS X port currently compiles ok
21:16:45  <glx> but it lacks features
21:17:31  <andythenorth> hmm...svn up fails for me right now.
21:17:32  <andythenorth> svn: Can't connect to host '': No route to host
21:17:41  <glx> it's .org
21:18:08  * andythenorth wonders how *that* got changed :o
21:18:21  <andythenorth> I don't screw with repo configs
21:18:24  <glx> it always was .org
21:18:41  <andythenorth> yup, and it was working this morning
21:18:42  <Eddi|zuHause> i vaguely remember some talk about a redirect
21:19:06  <glx> .com should work too
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21:19:13  <glx> but it's best to use .org
21:19:36  * andythenorth wonders how to change an svn config
21:19:50  <glx> switch --relocate
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21:24:02  <andythenorth> bah
21:24:19  <andythenorth> I have a second checkout of OTTD.  It uses and also fails
21:24:33  <TrueBrain> .com in theory is an alias of .org, but yes, rather use .org
21:26:09  * andythenorth wonders if this ISP is blocking svn
21:26:12  <Eddi|zuHause> then your network is screwed up
21:26:19  <andythenorth> "I'm not from round here"
21:26:48  <andythenorth> might be the router.  I'm a guest :P
21:27:00  <andythenorth> ah screw it
21:27:07  <andythenorth> hg works though, weird
21:28:23  <andythenorth> good night
21:28:24  <Eddi|zuHause> hg is tunneled through http?
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21:28:50  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe it's some kind of proxy
21:28:54  <Eddi|zuHause> gnah...
21:30:04  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: hg is always over http :)
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21:32:58  <SmatZ> overhead ftw
21:33:20  <SmatZ> well.. maybe it's not that serious overhead :)
21:33:28  <TrueBrain> it is :p
21:33:31  <SmatZ> hehe :)
21:33:33  <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: well, that was a question...
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22:16:55  <Ammler> [23:30] <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: hg is always over http ᅩ or direct file (ssh)
22:21:12  <Eddi|zuHause> next time you quote someone, make clear which part is quoted and which one is not.
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22:22:14  <temoto> This is a funny bug... after some time, 'D' demolish hotkey is ignored. [linux x86-64 from ubuntu lucid repo]
22:22:44  <frosch123> maybe you have some editbox open
22:22:48  <temoto> happens like 3rd time in a row. maybe after hour or two
22:23:01  <PeterT> 1.0.1-RC2 already?!
22:23:13  <PeterT> O_o
22:23:17  <Eddi|zuHause> temoto: "D" is caught by order windows, if one is open
22:23:40  <Eddi|zuHause> and the landscape toolbar must be open for the "D" key to work
22:24:04  <temoto> I didn't see any editboxes or order windows, but indeed, opening 'rename' on city and closing it, helped. Thanks for hints.
22:24:28  <temoto> i used to restart before
22:28:03  <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: next time you answer someone directly, make clear to highlight him :-P
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23:15:42  <Terkhen> good night
23:16:31  <PeterT> Good night Terkhen
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