Log for #openttd on 20th May 2010:
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00:42:58  <Lapsus> Hello! :3
00:43:28  <PeterT> D: !olleH
00:45:44  <Lapsus> :p
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01:07:06  <Eddi|zuHause> "did you mean ¡Holá!?"
01:07:33  <Chrill> Sí
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05:45:58  <jony123> Is there an easy way on linux cli to setup the deicated server game?
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06:06:22  <Forked> if you can start the game on something with a GUI, you can set all settings there and copy the config file over to the server
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08:35:42  <dihedral>
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08:49:24  <potrzebie> Cool :)
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09:03:54  <peter1138> ah, newzbin finally gone
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12:51:47  <Belugas> hello
12:52:59  <Goulp> Gday overseas
12:55:02  <Belugas> La mer... qu'on voit chanter...
12:55:03  <Belugas> blablabla
12:55:09  <Belugas> hello Goulp :)
12:55:23  <peter1138> glub glub glub
12:55:45  <peter1138> MEAT BEAT
12:55:47  <peter1138> MANIFESTO
12:58:19  <Belugas> this is a land of confusion ;)
13:07:25  <peter1138> home sweet home
13:13:16  <Belugas> by the sea
13:15:58  <Belugas> Bytes Hey!
13:16:19  <Belugas> look what can be found on the waves of the digital ocean...
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13:19:48  <fjb> Moin.
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13:36:24  <borgfish> hi
13:36:47  <borgfish> i would need help configuring my dedicated server.
13:36:56  <borgfish> is there a setting for a max. number of oil rigs?
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13:37:39  <Rubidium> not directly
13:38:16  <Rubidium> though if you haven't enabled "industries close together" and "multiple industries of same type in a town", then it's limited to the number of coastal towns
13:38:58  <planetmaker> also: why is it important to limit the number of oil rigs?
13:39:06  <planetmaker> What's the real purpose you try to follow?
13:39:26  <borgfish> well the game shall run for several hundret years and they keep spawning, its a mess regarding density
13:39:51  <planetmaker> well, they also go again, if they're not serviced
13:39:57  <Rubidium> so you've enabled those settings I've mentioned earlier
13:40:03  <planetmaker> ^  yep
13:40:22  <planetmaker> borgfish, more of a problem are power plans, banks and water towers
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13:40:30  <planetmaker> they never close down, once spawned.
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13:40:45  <planetmaker> Thus setting "one industry per kind and town" might then really make sense
13:40:57  <borgfish> yes power plants are a problem, but not that ugly like the riggs
13:41:17  <planetmaker> :-) Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, I guess :-)
13:42:15  <borgfish> :o)
13:43:34  <borgfish> never_expire_vehicles means they wont warn if old ?
13:44:24  <Ammler> warn if old is a client setting...
13:44:46  <borgfish> i have seen it in my client while playing on the server, but i could not switch it ?
13:45:01  <Ammler> news settings
13:45:31  <Ammler> oh planetmaker/andy, if you cleanup settings, news settings might be another window, which needs merging ;-)
13:45:41  <planetmaker> :-) yes, I guess
13:45:52  <planetmaker> But that's quite low on that list tbh
13:46:08  <borgfish> how is the news setting named ? i cant identify it on my german openttd
13:46:13  <Eddi|zuHause> <borgfish> never_expire_vehicles means they wont warn if old ? <-- no, it means you can buy vehicles forever
13:46:18  <planetmaker> Nachrichten
13:46:32  <planetmaker> borgfish, it's available ingame by the newspaper symbol in the task bar
13:46:40  <borgfish> rat / informationen zu fahrzeugen der firma
13:47:10  <planetmaker> feel free to propose translation improvements ;-)
13:47:28  <borgfish> how is it named in english ? the warn if old option ?
13:47:46  <planetmaker> I think exactly that "warn, if vehicle gets old"
13:48:01  <Mazur> It's part of all vehicle related news items.
13:48:05  <Rubidium> I hope s/if/when/ :)
13:48:16  <planetmaker> hehe :-) True that
13:48:46  <borgfish> well i have like 15 options in my news menue, and if switched on, they come as newspaper
13:49:03  <planetmaker> set them to ticker ;-)
13:49:07  <borgfish> but the warn if old thing comes as little box with the running train inside e.g.
13:49:21  <borgfish> so i guess its not a news setting ?
13:49:35  <Mazur> "advice"
13:49:50  <Mazur> In english.
13:50:17  <dihedral> Looks like i can make the weekend in june :-)
13:51:06  <dihedral> planetmaker, what do you prefer? people staying at your house or people getting a room
13:51:20  <dihedral> if you want people to get a room, do you suggest anything?
13:51:30  <borgfish> when i goto the "wheel" button 3rd top left, - advanced options, under vehicles: i can switch on and of the aging
13:51:36  <borgfish> while playing on my server, i cant
13:51:42  <borgfish> so i thought its a server setting
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14:07:38  <planetmaker> dihedral, I don't mind people staying at my house. But I'm actually sure that there are too many people in order to have that work for everyone
14:08:22  <planetmaker> Hotels in the direct vicinity of my place is a bit difficult. A quite good and not cheap hotel is the "Hotel am Wollmarkt".
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14:08:51  <planetmaker> It's a former YCMA hotel which offers nights for about 30€ IIRC
14:09:07  <planetmaker> the youth hostel unfortunately is diametrally at the opposite end of town
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14:10:05  <planetmaker> hm... prices are actually a bit higher than I thought:
14:10:11  <planetmaker>
14:10:51  <planetmaker> So 50€ or 80€ for double
14:11:56  <planetmaker> I'm actually thinking right now whether I should try to reserve sufficient room in a nice pub - and make a public announcement.
14:12:16  <planetmaker> That's then not BBQ - but it will make rather sure that it's easy to serve all the people .-)
14:13:14  <planetmaker> hm... I just got an idea :-)
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14:15:41  <planetmaker> what does the average participant of such convention expect it to be like?
14:15:56  <planetmaker> just a huge get-together with some nice food?
14:16:13  <borgfish> you need strippers ! (lol)
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14:18:56  <yorick> and loads of wifi
14:19:03  <__ln__> get-together with food sounds good
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14:21:33  <fjb> OpenTTD get-together in Braunschweig?
14:25:41  <planetmaker> jo
14:27:22  <SirSquidness> Why can't you guys live in Australia? :(
14:28:00  <Rubidium> because the stupidity of the government of Australia?
14:28:02  <Eddi|zuHause> because everything is upside down there
14:28:07  <planetmaker> I have the feeling that it's getting bigger than might be comfortable at my home due to crowdedness.
14:28:27  <planetmaker> So... rather a pub or a (youth) convention centre?
14:31:02  <orudge_> so, you're not all coming to the TT meet then this year?
14:31:09  <orudge_> which I'm sure several of you said you would do last year if you'd had more notice :p
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14:38:16  <Eddi|zuHause> orudge_: if it's in the UK, that is fairly unlikely
14:38:54  <orudge_> compared to, say, where? are you unwilling to travel outside of your own country, or just unwilling to travel to the UK? :p
14:39:03  <Rubidium> orudge_: getting to the plane would take longer (and cost most) than getting to Braunschweig
14:39:20  <Eddi|zuHause> orudge_: i'm unable to pay for a far journey
14:39:35  <SirSquidness> Eddi|zuHause: nuh uh, it's you guys that are upside down! :<
14:40:01  <Eddi|zuHause> SirSquidness: then you're downside up!
14:40:13  <orudge_>
14:40:14  <orudge_> true that!
14:40:20  <orudge_> Eddi|zuHause: useless! :p
14:40:31  <orudge_> ah well, we did have a few Europeans come over to London in 2008
14:40:36  <tycoondemon> 16:21:33,20102005 <fjb> OpenTTD get-together in Braunschweig?
14:40:37  <orudge_> even the esteemed patchman
14:40:42  <tycoondemon> cool
14:40:47  <SirSquidness> Eddi|zuHause: and don't you forget it! :D
14:40:49  <tycoondemon> thats like close by
14:41:24  <orudge_> heh
14:41:24  <orudge_>
14:41:27  <planetmaker> hm... I really should make a forum thread I guess. And get a place to hold it other than my home which is already filled with people who already like to come ;-)
14:41:29  <orudge_> this one even puts Australia smack bang in the middle
14:42:30  <Rubidium> oh, it only costs me like 150 euros to get to/from Edinburgh and sleep two nights in a cardboard box
14:42:40  <orudge_> quite reasonable, eh :D
14:43:00  <SirSquidness> Cardboard boxes are so expensive these days.
14:43:01  <orudge_> the exchange rate is reasonably favourable to you Euro-types at the moment, I guess
14:44:03  <Eddi|zuHause> i have an idea!
14:44:07  <planetmaker> hm... or we have BBQ at our institute...
14:44:15  <Eddi|zuHause> hold the meet on kamtschatka, that's equally far from everybody!
14:44:23  <planetmaker> :-D
14:47:12  <Belugas> mmh... 14 hours of driving between Montreal and Chicago...
14:47:22  <Belugas> hell... the roads are long in here :(
14:47:26  <Rubidium> planetmaker: to what extent does going to a pub limit "younger" people to participate?
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14:47:50  <Rubidium> not sure whether we should really bother about that, but well... never hurts to check
14:48:16  <orudge_> <Belugas> mmh... 14 hours of driving between Montreal and Chicago... <-- or about 2 hours on a plane, I imagine :)
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14:48:55  <planetmaker> Rubidium, I guess it limits it to midnight for people younger than 18
14:48:56  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: to my knowledge, there is no age limit for pubs
14:49:24  <Belugas> will cost roughly 115$ by road, plus hotel, lunch and so on
14:49:25  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, but why did one have to leave a discotheque at midnight when not 18?
14:49:43  <Markk> Belugas: Don't you live in Denmark?
14:49:57  <Eddi|zuHause> Markk: no, that was the other B person
14:50:00  <Belugas> Markk, nope, not at all...
14:50:07  <Markk> Okay. :P
14:50:09  <Eddi|zuHause> whose name shall not be mentioned!
14:50:13  <planetmaker> :-D
14:50:37  <__ln__> Markk: he lives in a country which has border disputes with Denmark.
14:50:40  <planetmaker> Rubidium, but sure, that's a good point. Though if it's a private convention I'm not entirely sure whether those rules do apply
14:51:02  <Markk> __ln__: Canada?
14:51:08  <planetmaker> ^
14:51:11  <Markk> (Greenland)
14:51:45  <__ln__> do we know for a fact that someone is under 18?
14:51:54  <Rubidium> planetmaker: well, I seem to remember that in the US getting access for < 21 year old people would be kinda troublesome
14:52:22  <Rubidium> probably because of their sue-happy culture
14:52:26  <Belugas> orudge: more than 500$ is a bit hard to swallow...  i'd rather buy a new lens instead ;)
14:52:30  <Markk> Awesome, it's about 80 degrees outside, and I'm listening to Earth, Wind and Fire - September. :D
14:52:53  <Belugas> Markk, yup, Canada is my place
14:52:56  <Markk> Awesome
14:52:58  <Belugas> country
14:53:24  <planetmaker> Rubidium, 18 is definitely the only limit in that respect, 16 might be another, 14 yet another, but...
14:53:55  <orudge_> <Belugas> orudge: more than 500$ is a bit hard to swallow...  i'd rather buy a new lens instead ;) <-- heh
14:54:00  * orudge_ is heading to Vancouver next weekend
14:54:09  <orudge_> and I'm hoping my lens is back from the camera repair shop by then :/
14:54:34  <orudge_> it unfortunately got dropped :(
14:54:36  <Belugas> ho?  sand/dust?
14:54:42  <Belugas> ooops...
14:54:50  <orudge_> which damaged some of the electric contacts on it
14:54:53  <Belugas> like, badly damaged?
14:54:59  <orudge_> not too badly, no
14:55:10  <Belugas> good for you :)
14:55:14  <Belugas> what lens was that?
14:55:23  <Belugas> was-is
14:55:36  <orudge_> just the stock 18-55mm lens that comes with the Nikon D40
14:55:44  <__ln__> is a cake expected to survive from dutchland to germanland on a summer day?
14:56:00  <orudge_> I've intended to get a 55-200mm lens too, but alas money has been prioritised in other areas recently :p
14:56:09  <planetmaker> __ln__, they can reasonably be expected to survive.
14:56:17  <Belugas> 18-55 is very good to walk around.
14:56:17  <planetmaker> Tested successfully (though the other way around)
14:56:23  <SirSquidness> __ln__: as long as it's not an icecream cake \o/
14:56:29  <Belugas> 55-200 is a bit too small, if you ask me
14:56:49  <Belugas> you might check 70-300 at sigma
14:57:26  <Belugas> note that... i choose the canon's 70-300mm...
14:58:15  <orudge_> mmh
14:58:24  <orudge_> well, we shall see :)
14:58:30  <peter1138> you need
14:58:35  <peter1138>
14:59:25  <orudge_> that might work
14:59:36  <orudge_> might be slightly impractical going through airport security, though
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14:59:47  <orudge_> I think I may have to pay excess luggage charges for that one, too
15:03:08  <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: summer starts on 21st june, that's _after_ the meet
15:03:34  <peter1138> oh, there's a meet?
15:03:54  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: an r20000 party in Braunschweig
15:04:42  <peter1138> oh, so there is an r20000 meet
15:04:43  <peter1138> hmm
15:05:55  <Sacro> ooh
15:06:20  <peter1138> pretty secret meet
15:06:32  <glx> wow 256kg
15:07:05  <glx> not so secret
15:07:26  <planetmaker> peter1138, so far yes :-P
15:07:32  <glx> everything started here
15:07:40  <Eddi|zuHause> it was a secret conspiracy in this channel ;)
15:07:49  <planetmaker> But somehow it leaked
15:08:14  <Eddi|zuHause> only 100 people in the world knew about it
15:08:57  <peter1138>  Braunschweig
15:08:57  <peter1138> »» 2010-05-20 16:04:42 <@peter1138> oh, so there is an r20000 meet
15:08:59  <peter1138> er
15:09:08  <peter1138>
15:09:11  <peter1138> huge amount of discussion there
15:10:35  <planetmaker> :-)
15:10:55  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19862 /trunk/src/console.cpp: -Change: allow "" and " " as arguments meaning nothing and space for the in-game console
15:11:15  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19863 /trunk/src/table/settings.h: -Fix: redraw the screen when changing the currency settings
15:11:33  * planetmaker senses nicknames of the type " "
15:11:50  * SirSquidness is now known as NULL
15:12:23  <glx> peter1138: 2010-05-16 21:06:35 < Weeknie> We should arrange a meating once lol <-- that's when it really started
15:12:41  <planetmaker> yeah, kinda.
15:13:00  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19864 /trunk/src/settings.cpp: -Fix: don't print a pointer as string for listing (a) setting(s)
15:13:28  <glx> how silly, search and details don't use the same TZ
15:14:21  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19865 /trunk/src/ (settings.cpp settings_internal.h): -Fix [FS#3830]: crash when changing locale settings from console due to strcpy-ing a string into a pointer
15:15:07  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19866 /trunk/src/lang/russian.txt: -Change: use non breaking spaces as digit group separators in the Russian translation
15:17:49  *** Adambean [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
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15:36:57  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19867 /trunk/src/ (currency.cpp strgen/strgen.cpp string_type.h): -Change: use non-breaking spaces for currency pre-/postfixes.
15:37:20  <peter1138> use non-breaking windows for green house
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15:41:59  <dihedral> planetmaker, for the funeral of my dad we were able to reserve a bunch of rooms and got like 10% off ;-)
15:42:23  <SmatZ> that GDB is driving me crazy
15:42:30  <SmatZ> it completely ignores breakpoints I set
15:42:44  <Rubidium> lto?
15:42:47  <SmatZ> and refuses to start the program in "step" mode
15:42:52  <planetmaker> dihedral, yeah, I could certainly do that there, too. They explicitly say they give group discounts
15:42:57  <SmatZ> nope, just normal code that worked 5 minutes ago
15:43:07  <fjb> planetmaker: When will the get-together happen?
15:43:12  <glx> optimisations ?
15:43:14  <planetmaker> fjb, 19/20 June
15:43:14  <SmatZ> but now GDB reached its puberty and doesn't obey at all
15:43:17  <dihedral> unless TrueBrain wants to share a double with me :-D
15:43:25  <planetmaker> :-D
15:43:33  <SmatZ> glx: no changes to optimisations, everything works - apart from breakpoints...
15:43:35  <dihedral> lol SmatZ
15:43:56  <SmatZ> (gdb) step
15:43:57  <glx> I never have troubles with breakpoints with -O0
15:43:58  <SmatZ> The program is not being run.
15:44:15  <fjb> planetmaker: Braunschweig is only 45km north of here.
15:44:16  <SmatZ> how do I explain it I want to start stepping from the first program instruction?
15:44:25  <planetmaker> wolfenbÃŒttel?
15:44:29  <planetmaker> hildesheim?
15:44:47  <fjb> planetmaker: Bad Harzburg.
15:45:15  <planetmaker> he :-)
15:45:16  <__ln__> sounds Bad
15:45:29  <planetmaker> __ln__, it rather sounds healthy ;-)
15:46:09  <fjb> __ln__: Bad, from baden = bathing.
15:47:27  <SmatZ> also, stupid DDD starts it some stacked mode, so all windows are so tiny, so I have to resize them so I can use that tool
15:47:29  <SmatZ> blargh
15:47:34  <SmatZ> I got too much today I guess
15:47:48  * planetmaker hugs SmatZ
15:47:53  <planetmaker> and gives him a cookie
15:47:56  <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: lots of places in germany are "Bad" in that way :p
15:48:14  <SmatZ> and NASM fails to export debug symbols with full path - or is it again GDB who fails to append the path correctly? ...
15:48:17  <SmatZ> thanks planetmaker :)
15:48:39  <planetmaker> :-)
15:48:48  <SmatZ> also:
15:48:52  <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: places that are "Bad" are allowed to collect additional taxes
15:49:01  <SmatZ> (gdb) q
15:49:01  <__ln__> cool
15:49:08  <SmatZ> A debugging session is active.Quit anyway? (y or n) y
15:49:09  <planetmaker> "Kurtaxe" ;-)
15:49:12  <SmatZ> OF COURSE I DO!
15:49:19  <SmatZ> why do you think I typed QQQQ!!!!?!?!
15:49:21  <SmatZ> :-p
15:49:31  <dihedral> Eddi|zuHause, like Bad Ewanne
15:49:47  <SmatZ> it's the same when KDE asks me if I really do want to turn off computer, and asks it TWICE
15:49:47  <glx> Eddi|zuHause: something like "-les-bains" here (they are allowed to have casinos)
15:49:49  <SmatZ> I DO!
15:50:23  <dihedral> are you sure?
15:50:43  <glx> are you really sure?
15:50:56  <Eddi|zuHause> glx: yes, similar... actually "Bad" is a direct translation of "bain"
15:50:59  <planetmaker> hm... maybe not?
15:51:01  <SmatZ> :-D
15:51:14  <SmatZ> and kscreenlocker fails to unlock my screen
15:51:27  <SmatZ> so I have to login at different terminal and type "killall kscreenlocker"
15:51:30  <Eddi|zuHause> of course, you need a kscreenunlocker for that :p
15:51:32  <SmatZ> ...
15:51:35  <SmatZ> :-p
15:51:35  <dihedral> planetmaker, CVJM....?
15:53:05  <Eddi|zuHause> YMCA?
15:53:14  <planetmaker> dihedral, yes
15:53:16  <Rubidium> CMYK?
15:53:19  <planetmaker> :-D
15:53:33  <planetmaker> CVJM (de) = YMCA (en)
15:53:45  <planetmaker> christlicher verein junger menschen ;-)
15:53:59  <planetmaker> I thought you knew that, dihedral
15:54:21  <dihedral> yes - i know that, just surprised me ;-)
15:54:26  <planetmaker> :-)
15:54:39  <planetmaker> it's a good hotel. We always send our guests there
15:54:54  <planetmaker> good prices, nice rooms, central location
15:54:58  <fjb> glx: We have a casino here. :-)
15:56:49  <planetmaker> dihedral, I certainly can host a few people, if they bring sleeping matress and bag - and in case of doubt don't mind to sleep under the roof where I usually dry my clothes :-)
15:56:59  <planetmaker> but it won't work for all.
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16:00:28  <Rubidium> could always start relatively early and not make it very late
16:00:52  <Rubidium> the r10k was finished just after 21:00 IIRC
16:01:26  *** einKarl [] has joined #openttd
16:01:39  <Rubidium> which should give quite some people a chance to get at home I guess
16:02:34  <planetmaker> how / at what location was it held?
16:02:45  <Rubidium> at TB's home
16:02:48  <planetmaker> ah :-)
16:02:53  <planetmaker> and how many were there?
16:03:14  <Rubidium> less than half a dozen I think
16:03:26  <dihedral> lol
16:03:27  <planetmaker> oh. Considerably less then :-)
16:04:43  *** Goulp [] has quit [Quit: KISS]
16:04:58  <Rubidium> what's so bad about the E30 between Minden and Osnabruck that google suggests going via Bremen or Dortmund?
16:05:40  *** Goulp [] has joined #openttd
16:06:58  <Yexo> hmm? google maps gives the route via osnabruck as first suggestions, via bremen and dortmund are two alternative routes that both take longer
16:06:59  *** caribou| [] has joined #openttd
16:06:59  <Rubidium> also, if it starts just after lunch (assume people had lunch when arriving) (13:00 ish?) that would give a reasonable departure time for most as well
16:07:07  <caribou|> hello
16:07:41  <planetmaker> well, yes, it would.
16:07:43  <caribou|> is there any way to autorenew my vehicles easily ?
16:07:59  <planetmaker> caribou|, yes, by using the autorenew feature
16:08:03  <caribou|> autorenew = true ?
16:08:07  <planetmaker> yes
16:08:14  <caribou|> mhhh does people use to do that ?
16:08:15  <Rubidium> Yexo: 70-80 km longer but only 30 minutes, which would mean a higher average speed or something
16:08:19  <caribou|> because that's really boring...
16:08:27  <caribou|> (not to use it i mean...)
16:08:36  <planetmaker> Rubidium, but I guess many of the longer-distant people would like to stay the night :-)
16:08:48  <Yexo> ah, I didn't look at the distance
16:09:03  <Rubidium> maybe the E30 has a 100 km/h speed limit for some reason and the alternatives don't have such a restriction
16:09:06  <planetmaker> Rubidium, that highway has less speed limits
16:09:13  <planetmaker> yeah, I think
16:09:42  <planetmaker> going via OsnabrÃŒck is a quick and nice route
16:10:13  <planetmaker> the only nasty thing is the connection to the A2
16:10:29  <planetmaker> where the highway from OsnabrÃŒck ends in front of a small town and only continues afterwards
16:10:41  <planetmaker> And that town is literally plastered with speeding cameras
16:11:29  <planetmaker> like every kilometer one or so ;-)
16:11:30  <Rubidium> ah, that explains it all :)
16:11:51  <Rubidium> it's a piece of "no highway"
16:11:55  <planetmaker> yes
16:12:27  <Rubidium> that for the longest european road
16:12:52  <planetmaker> :-D
16:12:55  <Rubidium> although I have to confess that in the NL it's for a bit not a highway either
16:13:11  <Rubidium> (just before the ferry to the UK)
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16:18:12  <SmatZ> ok, seems naming custom section "init" wasn't the best idea... it fooled GDB, and the code was executed as first :-p
16:18:34  <SmatZ> so main() wasn't executed
16:18:41  <SmatZ> and breakpoints were not reached...
16:19:28  <Yexo> what has gdb got to do with the order of execution? isn't that a problem of ld (or whatever linker you use)?
16:20:54  <SmatZ> Yexo: right, gdb is probably not the problem
16:20:56  <SmatZ> it's me :-p
16:21:14  <SmatZ> but it's easier to blame gdb than to admit I am fool :-p
16:21:20  <Yexo> hehe :)
16:22:09  <SmatZ> still, it would be great if GDB allowed me to start program in "stepping" mode from the first insutrction...
16:22:17  <SmatZ> I am not experienced with GDB at all :(
16:23:27  <Yexo> first instruction is usually a lot of library code
16:24:33  <SmatZ> really? I thought _start is executed
16:24:36  <SmatZ> but thanks for info :)
16:25:07  <Yexo> oh, that's quite possible, but 'normally' you don't write _start yourself
16:25:29  <Eddi|zuHause> what do you do with something that says "best before 2004"?
16:26:10  <Fast2> Eat it! ;)
16:26:17  <SmatZ> :-)
16:26:46  <Eddi|zuHause> it's pudding powder... does that get bad at all?
16:27:18  <dihedral> only one way to find out :-P
16:28:50  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, chances are it can't really get bad
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16:35:47  *** Keyboard_Warrior is now known as theholyduck
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16:41:05  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i might have used too much water... it's a little too liquid
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16:43:07  <planetmaker> water? Milk!
16:43:23  <dihedral> some are mixed with water, pm
16:43:51  <dihedral> how come you were not able to read how much water you would have to add? :-P
16:44:34  <Eddi|zuHause> it said "half a cup of coffee"
16:44:50  <Eddi|zuHause> and "(150ml)"
16:50:29  <Eddi|zuHause> ... but no negative side effects  yet
16:51:35  * SmatZ pats __ln__
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16:52:39  * __ln__ pats back
16:52:50  <Eddi|zuHause> get a room!
16:54:49  * theholyduck imagines a world where openttd is multithreaded
16:55:01  <theholyduck> and you can run 10k trains on your delicious quadcore
16:55:07  <Eddi|zuHause> go ahead!
16:55:15  <theholyduck> Eddi|zuHause, well i can only imagine it
16:55:21  <dihedral> theholyduck, what would you run in different threads??
16:55:31  <theholyduck> dihedral, hmm, a big question.
16:55:33  <dihedral> (in your imagination)
16:55:44  <dihedral> or do you refer to 'threaded' as 'faster'?
16:55:45  <theholyduck> dihedral, well most of the cpu is taken by pathfinder right?
16:55:47  <Eddi|zuHause> theholyduck: there are way too many data dependencies to run in threads reliably
16:56:07  <__ln__> a separate thread for each vehicle
16:56:09  <theholyduck> :P
16:56:18  <theholyduck> alternativly
16:56:27  <theholyduck> you could i guess theoretically dedicate pathfinding for a given area of the map
16:56:29  <Eddi|zuHause> theholyduck: the main problem is, it must be deterministic
16:56:30  <theholyduck> or network
16:56:35  <theholyduck> to a thread
16:56:50  <theholyduck> so low level path findind is done on seperate threads for that local area
16:56:53  <dihedral> it's cute
16:57:16  <theholyduck> that way you'd have less issues with the threads on pathfinding causing something major
16:57:47  <dihedral> ...
16:57:52  <Eddi|zuHause> theholyduck: pathfinding is not done on "an area of map"
16:57:59  <theholyduck> Eddi|zuHause, well yeah, not normally :P
16:58:09  <Eddi|zuHause> not ever
16:58:17  <theholyduck> well i'm talking a new approach to pathfinding
16:58:17  <dihedral> theholyduck, you are amusing a good portion of this channel
16:58:19  <dihedral> :-P
16:58:24  <theholyduck> dihedral, possibly :P
16:58:42  <dihedral> in fact - if i may put it that way: you ware making a fool of yourself :-P
16:58:48  <theholyduck> dihedral, probably
16:58:54  <yorick> someone made an area-based yapf
16:59:17  <Eddi|zuHause> theholyduck: it takes more calculation power to determine whether a pathfinding operation can be confinded to "an area of map" than it takes to do the pathfinding
16:59:18  <yorick> on that automatic rail builder patch
16:59:34  <theholyduck> Eddi|zuHause, well yeah, it would waste a fair bit of cpu
16:59:49  <theholyduck> Eddi|zuHause, the point of the exercise is that it can now utilize as many cores as you have more effectivly
16:59:51  <theholyduck> in theory atleast
16:59:59  <theholyduck> its just something i dreamt up once
17:00:07  <theholyduck> in the real world its probably not viable
17:00:14  <planetmaker> theholyduck, it may work in single player
17:00:17  <Eddi|zuHause> your theory is significantly in need of refining
17:00:18  <dihedral> you have an interesting imagination
17:00:21  <yorick> but how do you fix that synchronization?
17:00:29  <planetmaker> but as soon as you enter multi-player things get much more complex
17:00:51  <theholyduck> an alternative yet again that i have no idea if is implemented
17:01:18  <dihedral> no, you have no idea. (full stop) :-P
17:01:18  <theholyduck> make the diffrent sort of pf's run in diffrent threads
17:01:22  <Eddi|zuHause> theholyduck: player A who compiled with threads disabled must get the exact same results as player B who has threads but only one core, and player C who enabled multicore-distribution
17:01:45  <theholyduck> atleast boats and planes dont interact with anything else
17:02:11  <Eddi|zuHause> planes don't have a pathfinder at all
17:02:16  <theholyduck> ok then, but boats du
17:02:17  <theholyduck> *do
17:02:27  <theholyduck> i noticed boats lagging up games when you got enough of them alongside trains
17:02:36  <Eddi|zuHause> the boat pathfinder has different problems than multithreading
17:02:41  <dihedral> ship pathfinding is expensive, but that is due to the fact that every tile can be considered a 'turning point'
17:02:52  <theholyduck> well yes, but if it ran in a seperate thread from trains
17:03:06  <theholyduck> as long as you had 2 cores, there would be less slowdowns from it right?
17:03:07  <dihedral> it would still consider every tile a turning point and still be expensive
17:03:23  <theholyduck> dihedral, yes, i'm not talking about making boat pf less expensive
17:03:24  <dihedral> and perhaps for you, who has multiple cores, that's makes it less noticable
17:03:31  <theholyduck> just less NOTICABLE
17:03:36  <dihedral> for YOU
17:03:42  <dihedral> what's with all the other players?
17:03:47  <Eddi|zuHause> theholyduck: at least as much time as for pathfinding is spent in the collision detection
17:03:59  <yorick> which is not done for ships, is it
17:04:01  <theholyduck> Eddi|zuHause, boats dont colide though.
17:04:04  <theholyduck> with anything
17:04:11  <theholyduck> which is why its the perfect candiate to move somewhere else
17:04:27  <theholyduck> boats dont colide and they dont interact with any other form of veichles at all
17:04:30  <theholyduck> unlike cars
17:04:40  <yorick> theholyduck: they do still interact with the players money
17:05:12  <theholyduck> yorick, sure, but the fact that it might charge or add a bit too late or early isnt likely to cause any issues now is it?
17:05:30  <dihedral> could
17:05:52  <dihedral> as Eddi|zuHause said, all clients and also the server must have exactly the same values in the same frame
17:06:16  <yorick> theholyduck: it is
17:06:34  <yorick> theholyduck: what if you have a HUGE ship, which would pay you enough money to build stuff and such
17:06:38  <yorick> what then
17:06:50  *** Doorslammer [Doorslamme@] has quit []
17:07:07  <dihedral> YOU get payed and build, and the server does not yet see that income
17:07:11  <dihedral> but an expense
17:07:12  <Yexo> theholyduck: imagine a train is in need of renewing and you just don't have enough
17:07:20  <dihedral> the server will refuse the build action
17:07:22  <Yexo> on clients A a ship unloads, you get money and have enough for the train rewew
17:07:33  <Yexo> on client B first the renew check is done, then the ship unloads
17:07:39  <Yexo> -> desync
17:07:52  <dihedral> Client A and Server should be enough :-P
17:07:52  <yorick> and also thing about the station ratings
17:07:55  <yorick> think*
17:08:07  <Yexo> client B is the server :p
17:08:20  <dihedral> :-P
17:08:29  <Yexo> station ratings are no problem, at least if all pathfinding is still done at the same time
17:09:20  <dihedral> talking of which....
17:09:26  <dihedral> Yexo?
17:09:37  <dihedral> i looked out of my window and saw a ... squirrel :-P
17:10:08  <theholyduck> heh, i guess my plan does have flaws
17:10:18  <theholyduck> so even with threading, you need some fancy synching stuff?
17:10:22  <dihedral> no - sorry theholyduck you are wrong again
17:10:29  <dihedral> your plan does not have flaws
17:10:33  <dihedral> your plan IS a flaw
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17:16:25  <SpComb> openttd is already multithreaded :P
17:18:36  *** theholyduck [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
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17:28:50  <glx> SpComb: yes landscape generation and saving ;)
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17:35:04  <theholyduck> and not for the crushing weight of the trains
17:36:12  <SpComb> you need to be more specific :)
17:37:29  <SpComb> but generally, one of the silly things with threading is that while it might make your stuff go faster on a multi-cpu/core host, it'll generally make your single-core performance much, much worse
17:39:29  <SpComb> you'd have to be very, very smart about it to keep the break-even point low enough for it to be worth it
17:40:04  <glx> anyway requiring a map locking is a no-go
17:40:19  <glx> and as everything in openttd access the map :)
17:42:41  * Rubidium proposes theholyduck first figures out what takes most CPU and then starts with thinking about how to optimise that
17:46:01  * Rubidium currently looks at a profile where the actual train pathfinding takes a whopping 3.8% of the CPU
17:46:28  <planetmaker> :-)
17:46:44  <planetmaker> frigging tile loops, those :-P
17:47:25  <Rubidium> planetmaker: yep, ~24%
17:47:51  <Rubidium> ~17% with drawing the windows
17:48:21  <Rubidium> @calc 2472452/2011
17:48:21  <DorpsGek> Rubidium: 1229.46394828
17:48:52  <Rubidium> okay, that game has about 600 trains
17:50:24  <Rubidium> I have to say that the profile seems to imply train NewGRFs are uses
17:50:58  *** murr4y [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:51:28  <planetmaker> uh? train newgrfs are what?
17:51:33  <Rubidium> about 9% goes up with resolving sprite groups
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17:51:48  <planetmaker> Japanese?
17:52:21  <Rubidium> planetmaker: no clue, just found a (gprof) profile on the bug tracker
17:52:29  <planetmaker> oh :-P
17:52:30  <theholyduck> well ok then, but openttd still goes mental on your cpu with large maps and many trains
17:52:41  <theholyduck> and it maxing out at 25% potential of calculation is ;(
17:52:42  <planetmaker> theholyduck, large maps
17:53:07  <planetmaker> theholyduck, it's no problem to speed it up, if you want to drop multiplayer
17:53:13  <theholyduck> heh :P
17:53:44  <Rubidium> planetmaker: and like non-determinism and some "rounding" errors
17:53:58  <planetmaker> Rubidium, in SP a few race conditions don't matter that much
17:54:03  <planetmaker> It can't desync
17:54:18  <theholyduck> so what we need is more magic?
17:54:59  <Rubidium> planetmaker: I mean, two trains loading at the same time taking the same cargo (updating the same variable), or the same when unloading
17:55:05  <Yexo> <planetmaker> Rubidium, in SP a few race conditions don't matter that much <- when trying to find a bug it's very useful there are no race conditions, even for sp
17:55:30  <planetmaker> Yexo, sure, no doubt. And I don't want to advocate it :-)
17:55:39  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: translators * r19868 /trunk/src/lang/ (indonesian.txt russian.txt):
17:55:39  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:55:39  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: indonesian - 4 changes by prof
17:55:39  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: russian - 17 changes by Lone_Wolf, perk11
17:55:55  <planetmaker> Rubidium, yep, probably. But then that could be probably avoided by using some kind of semaphores
17:55:56  <Rubidium> Yexo: but then bugs are the result of the non-determinism, so we don't care anymore
17:56:05  <planetmaker> hehe. indeed
17:56:31  <Rubidium> planetmaker: locking is expensive and must be avoided at all cost (even state correctness) to please theholyduck
17:56:45  <planetmaker> :-D
17:58:10  <Rubidium> although, to please theholyduck we could also run an "idle" thread on each of the cores
17:58:23  <theholyduck> or! i know
17:58:30  <theholyduck> incorperate folding@home into openttd
17:58:40  <theholyduck> to use the remaining cpu power on multicore boxes
17:59:05  <Eddi|zuHause> which brings us back to CloudTTD :)
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18:02:02  <Alberth> I like much more
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18:02:52  <SpComb> "When are the netherlands going to be underwater?"
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18:03:17  * Alberth lives above sea level
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18:03:57  <theholyduck> related quote
18:03:59  <theholyduck> <ChronoCross> I feel as though ----------------------tesa should be an option. it should be compareable to lossless with the side effect of it taking an eternity to encode.
18:03:59  <theholyduck> <ChronoCross> I guarantee 90% of the people in this channel and doom9 would use it.
18:04:05  <theholyduck> <pengvado> no, it has to be blatantly obvious.
18:04:05  <theholyduck> <pengvado> --placebo
18:04:05  <theholyduck> <pengvado> which makes your encode 10x slower and donates the difference to folding@home
18:04:09  <theholyduck> hmm, i should learn to use pastebin
18:05:59  *** Adambean` [] has quit []
18:06:15  <Alberth> or not paste pseudo random quotes in a channel
18:06:18  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: above _current_ sealevel :P
18:08:14  <Eddi|zuHause> reminds me of: "the dutch only will have problems with rising sea level until they figure out how to smoke seaweed" :p
18:08:23  <Rubidium> SpComb: when the sealevel rises more than about 321 meters
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18:14:52  <planetmaker> Alberth: I asked already, but I forgot and didn't take notes: where should best go things like 		this->SetWidgetDisabledState(GLAND_INDUSTRY_PULLDOWN, _game_mode == GM_EDITOR); ?
18:14:55  <andythenorth> evening
18:15:16  <Rubidium> afternoon andythenorth
18:15:17  <planetmaker> (which currently are found in OnPaint
18:15:31  <planetmaker> ) - good evening andythenorth
18:15:41  <Rubidium> planetmaker: OnPaint is preferably used only for the actual painting, not for updating the window's state
18:16:04  <andythenorth> bah
18:16:08  <planetmaker> well, yes. But many (most?) windows seem to set the disabled state there. But yeah, that's why I'm asking :-)
18:16:19  <andythenorth> goods grows cities apparently.
18:16:30  <planetmaker> andythenorth: no ;-)
18:16:37  <andythenorth> which of these three would be easier:
18:16:41  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: look in those where the OnPaint method was already cleaned up :p
18:17:04  <andythenorth> (A) make various web documentation compliant with the game in resp. of goods and town growth
18:17:21  <andythenorth> (B) make players compliant with the accurate documentation not the inaccurate documentation
18:17:38  <andythenorth> (C) make the game compliant with the inaccurate documentation
18:17:38  <andythenorth> ?
18:17:40  <planetmaker> andythenorth: of what do you dream at night?
18:17:42  <Rubidium> planetmaker: if it never changes again, in the constructor. Otherwise in some function that's called whenever that state changes
18:17:50  <andythenorth> planetmaker: a dreamless sleep
18:17:51  <dihedral> (C) design the game to be accurate to incorrect documentation
18:18:16  <planetmaker> Rubidium: it does change. So things like OnClick and so on. Ok :-)
18:18:41  <Rubidium> planetmaker: _game_mode likely doesn't
18:18:49  <planetmaker> hm?
18:18:58  <planetmaker> ah.. . EDITOR or not. Yes
18:19:11  <Alberth>
18:19:29  <planetmaker> :D
18:19:31  <planetmaker> thanks
18:19:47  * andythenorth doesn't have the heart to correct a forum poster about goods
18:19:55  <andythenorth> but not teaching is a crime :|
18:20:04  <Rubidium> andythenorth: incorrect documentation should be fixed
18:20:14  <dihedral> andythenorth, who was the poster?
18:20:20  <Rubidium> incorrect **official** documentation, that is
18:20:41  <andythenorth>
18:22:27  <dihedral> lol?
18:23:37  * andythenorth googles for whatever source it is that feeds this rumour
18:23:42  <andythenorth> but can't find any
18:24:49  <planetmaker> andythenorth: "goods growing town" is one of the most common misconceptions about the game
18:24:50  <Rubidium> TE_GOODS
18:24:59  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: as it's "common knowledge", things like this constantly appear in wikis and the like
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18:25:47  <andythenorth> this page is a cluster f*ck
18:25:48  <andythenorth>
18:26:12  <andythenorth> it contains multiple errors :o
18:26:30  <andythenorth> "Delivery of Goods or Food has no effect on the rate of town growth."
18:26:40  <andythenorth> but also "Goods and food can increase the rate of growth where accepted, and water is necessary for desert towns."
18:26:55  <andythenorth> ". Goods can accelerate the growth of a town, although it is the number of passengers delivered to the town which has the most impact."
18:27:05  <Rubidium> andythenorth: then FIX it
18:27:14  <andythenorth> " Although there is no requirement for the level of food to induce growth, the rate of expansion can be increased slightly by increasing the food supply."
18:27:16  <andythenorth> I will
18:27:23  <andythenorth> let me finish cooking and I'll do it
18:27:29  <andythenorth> then you can laugh at my errors :P
18:28:03  <dihedral> as long as the holy duck does not mangle with it and claim that more cores grow towns better :-P
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18:51:44  <planetmaker> Rubidium: some widgets which need their state updated upon several events (like snow line buttons). Should they get updated upon every event (duplicating code), should it remain in OnPaint, or something else?
18:52:06  <planetmaker> maybe like static void UpdateSnowline()
18:52:15  <planetmaker> maybe like static void UpdateSnowlineButtons()
18:53:57  <planetmaker> hm... UpdateSnowLineWidgets... sounds not bad actually
18:55:11  <Rubidium> planetmaker: check some of the other windows. Usually the lazy method of "just check all buttons" method is applied, i.e. update the state of all buttons when you know only the state of one changed
18:55:15  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19869 /trunk/src/network/network.cpp: -Fix [FS#3819]: when a connection gets lost and a game with AIs was loaded the client might crash due to the AIs not being loaded while the game loop is executed
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18:55:57  <planetmaker> hm, yes, that might be more sensible. At least for those which change on several occasions
18:59:21  <Eddi|zuHause> GUI code is not in dire need of run-time optimisation
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19:00:19  <Eddi|zuHause> unless it's things like the cargodist link graph, which need extraordinarily many ressources
19:00:51  <SpComb> link graph is like O(N²) on all stations :(
19:00:55  <Alberth> I find it a bit frightening that you need such a thing to play the game
19:02:12  <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: it might be even worse than that, but i don't know the exact calculation
19:02:30  <SpComb> yeah, there's several loops
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19:12:47  <fonsinchen> Yes, the smallmap code is not very well optimized.
19:13:14  <fonsinchen> A lot of that stuff could be cached.
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19:14:21  <Eddi|zuHause> fonsinchen: the stuff you do in threads, have you ever looked at doing this in the tile loop instead?
19:14:38  <fonsinchen> no
19:15:13  <fonsinchen> I was thinking about providing a sort of "stepping" function which would break it up into smaller portions
19:15:38  <caribou|> how do you handle this situation ?
19:15:39  <fonsinchen> Then I'd still run that in the main loop
19:16:08  <fonsinchen> What is that?
19:16:26  <caribou|> mhh this is a two way crossroads :D
19:16:58  <Eddi|zuHause> caribou|: what do you want to achieve with the presignals there?
19:17:02  <caribou|> i'm not using blocking signal because some train are waiting ON the crossroad :/
19:17:32  <Eddi|zuHause> caribou|: you should use path signals, then trains will never wait _on_ the crossing
19:17:36  <caribou|> i want the train to wait Before
19:18:05  <caribou|> ok i've never used them 'im gonna dig that
19:18:56  <caribou|> thanks
19:19:48  <Keyboard_Warrior> Eddi|zuHause, well, he COULD have some sort of fancy priority or a timer or any other sort of fancy presignal stuff
19:19:50  <Keyboard_Warrior> just outside of view
19:19:56  <Keyboard_Warrior> that would explain that construct instead of pbs
19:20:17  <Keyboard_Warrior> caribou|, also, remember to make the presignals 1 way presignals, otherwise, weird stuff can happen
19:21:04  <Eddi|zuHause> Keyboard_Warrior: when he has one way signals, it wouldn't be a two way crossing
19:21:18  <caribou|> Keyboard_Warrior, 1 way ? but i want them to be two way :S ?
19:21:56  <Keyboard_Warrior> caribou|, oh, so hes not making the presignals 2 way to trick the pathfinder a bit?
19:22:22  <Keyboard_Warrior> its genuinly 3 unidirectional lines ? :P
19:22:26  <Eddi|zuHause> Keyboard_Warrior: you're thinking way too complex :p
19:22:44  <Keyboard_Warrior> Eddi|zuHause, well openttdcoop has ruined me to the ways of thinking about openttd games normally
19:23:10  <Eddi|zuHause> Keyboard_Warrior: yes, i was just gonna suggest that :p
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19:30:47  * andythenorth is not very good at editing wiki pages :P
19:31:05  <caribou|> i cant make them two-way O_O
19:31:24  <Keyboard_Warrior> caribou|, they are
19:31:36  <Keyboard_Warrior> caribou|, essentially, the one with a yellow thing under it
19:31:38  <Keyboard_Warrior> is 1 way
19:31:38  <Keyboard_Warrior> or white
19:31:46  <Keyboard_Warrior> or whatever it is in your grf set
19:31:57  <caribou|> <Eddi|zuHause> caribou|: you should use path signal
19:31:57  <Keyboard_Warrior> the one without that can be passed through from either side
19:32:04  <caribou|> i was using path signals :o
19:32:09  <Keyboard_Warrior> no
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19:32:13  <Keyboard_Warrior> you were using PRE signals
19:32:17  <caribou|> yes i know :D
19:32:30  <caribou|> i mean just now i was trying to put two way path signals that's why i guess...
19:32:31  <Keyboard_Warrior> caribou|, pbs signals lets you pass through them from the back
19:32:44  <Keyboard_Warrior> unless they are specifically PBS 1way
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19:32:56  <andythenorth> I don't really know the wiki etiquette (I've read the style guide though).  Is totally rewriting the town page bad behaviour?
19:33:13  <caribou|> Keyboard_Warrior, yes that's what i want to do a two way crossroad
19:33:18  <Eddi|zuHause> caribou|: they work differently
19:33:47  <Eddi|zuHause> caribou|: they show only a signal on the side where the train should be waiting, but allow trains going the other direction without stopping
19:34:00  <Keyboard_Warrior> caribou|
19:34:13  <Keyboard_Warrior> with a pathfinder penalty though
19:34:24  <Keyboard_Warrior> so trains will prefer not to go through the back of a pbs signal, unless it has to
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19:37:14  <Keyboard_Warrior> pbs is an amazingly good "get out of effort. free"-card
19:37:44  <caribou|> i still don't get in what purpose pbs are helping me i get the idea on situations like that
19:38:03  <caribou|> but it looks like i'm in a totally different situation, i guess that impression is wrong :D
19:38:30  <Keyboard_Warrior> caribou|, if you place a normal 2 way pbs at all 3 sides of that junction
19:38:37  <Keyboard_Warrior> it will be more efficient than with pre-signals
19:39:07  <Keyboard_Warrior> easier to build.
19:39:07  <Keyboard_Warrior> and generally better
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19:40:06  <caribou|> ok, but they are "red" by default is that a good sign ?
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19:40:52  <caribou|> i need to end my "block" i guess...
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19:41:00  <Keyboard_Warrior> naw
19:41:03  <Keyboard_Warrior> pbs are red by default
19:41:11  <Keyboard_Warrior> they only switch green as a train "walks up to them"
19:41:16  <Eddi|zuHause> caribou|: red is good
19:41:29  <Eddi|zuHause> caribou|: they only turn green when the train is approaching
19:41:43  <caribou|> indeed, ok :D
19:42:04  <caribou|> this game is awesome i'm sure that in 6 months i will still fight with signals
19:42:27  <caribou|> (no irony)
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19:46:48  <caribou|> is there a way to see the signal color when you're only seeing its back ?
19:47:06  <Keyboard_Warrior> caribou|, naw
19:47:11  <caribou|> ok :/
19:47:14  <Keyboard_Warrior> caribou|, but what you SHOULD enable when using pbs
19:47:19  <Keyboard_Warrior> is show reserved path
19:47:24  <caribou|> ohhh
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19:47:28  <caribou|> i guess that's help debugging
19:47:32  <Keyboard_Warrior> yeah
19:47:40  <caribou|> wowow i'm gonna enable that :D
19:47:58  <Keyboard_Warrior> interface, display options
19:48:04  <Keyboard_Warrior> show reserved tracks
19:48:45  <Keyboard_Warrior> essentially, pbs lets as many trains into a signal block as you want, as long as none of the reserved paths intsect
19:50:00  <caribou|> awwkay
19:50:21  <caribou|> (nothing changed when activating reserved tracks, normal ?)
19:50:28  <Keyboard_Warrior> caribou|, yeah
19:50:31  <Keyboard_Warrior> it only shows with trains
19:50:40  <Keyboard_Warrior> when a train reserves a path, that part of the track
19:50:42  <Keyboard_Warrior> turns darker
19:50:48  <caribou|> understood, thanks
19:51:26  <frosch123> wasn't your last screenshot using maglev? reserved tracks are "invisible" on maglev
19:52:12  <frosch123> or is that better in ogfx?
19:53:09  <caribou|> gnnn
19:53:25  <caribou|> yes maglev and i'm using open gfx and nothing does look darker no :s
19:53:55  <frosch123> take a close look, the small dark lines on the track might turn even more darker :p
19:54:02  <andythenorth> do larger buildings actually produce more passengers / mail?
19:54:29  <frosch123> andythenorth: production is proportional to population, unless callback are involved
19:54:30  <planetmaker> andythenorth: that depends.
19:54:50  <planetmaker> upon population - which can be set independent upon the visual size
19:54:56  * andythenorth wonders if it's necessary for the wiki to say anything about it
19:55:56  <caribou|> (yes that a bit darker indeed :D)
19:56:01  <frosch123> mention that it is quite hard to grow a toyland city, which accepts all of sweets, fizzy drinks and toys
19:56:28  <frosch123> hmm, no toys go to toy shops. what was the third cargo?
19:56:32  <andythenorth> do those cargos actually affect town growth?
19:56:57  <frosch123> andythenorth: no cargos affect town growth, except water and food in arctic and tropical
19:57:13  <frosch123> neither delivering nor transporting
19:57:16  <andythenorth> that's what I hoped you'd say.  I couldn't be bothered to open that code again
19:57:39  <andythenorth> why don't wiki's use real html? 9.9
19:57:48  <frosch123> didn't i already wrote that in some of your threads some days ago?
19:57:57  <andythenorth> it came up *again*
19:58:03  <frosch123> :p
19:58:31  <andythenorth> wiki formatting is way harder to understand than real html, for me anyway :P
19:58:42  <frosch123> however, reguary serviced stations affect towngrowth
19:58:51  <frosch123> but it does not matter whether you transport anything
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20:04:04  <andythenorth> so all the wiki stuff about passenger transportation == growth is also wrong :P
20:05:50  <frosch123> well, you maximise growth by loading and unloading one item of cargo at 5 stations within town influence at least once in two month
20:06:02  <frosch123> or so
20:07:05  <frosch123> @calc 20*185/72
20:07:05  <DorpsGek> frosch123: 51.3888888889
20:09:02  <andythenorth> frosch123: do the cargos have to be accepted, or just loaded/unloaded?
20:11:05  <frosch123> looks like unload order is enough
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20:11:23  <frosch123> you can also transfer
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20:19:48  <Stese> hELLO ALL
20:20:00  <Stese> oops,
20:20:23  <andythenorth> if a player uses "Fund New Buildings" that may co-incidentally increase town population (some random chance depending on type of buildings constructed)?
20:20:34  <planetmaker> <-- small diff which cleans OnPaint of the new game window
20:20:52  <planetmaker> hello Stese
20:21:07  <frosch123> andythenorth: what?
20:21:38  <andythenorth> If I use "Fund New Buildings" at local authority window, what is effect on town growth?
20:21:46  <andythenorth> sorry, on town population
20:22:51  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: town growth is increased drastically for a short time
20:22:55  <frosch123> it growth 2x - 3x as fast
20:23:04  <andythenorth> so the wiki should mention that...
20:23:17  <frosch123> iirc it even ignores lack of food/water
20:23:20  <Eddi|zuHause> and food/water requirement is ignored
20:23:22  <andythenorth> is there any randomness?  Or is it a guaranteed growth?
20:23:39  <frosch123> there is the usual randomness
20:24:16  <Stese> so it's non random, randomness?
20:24:20  <andythenorth> " This may result in rapid population growth for a short time"
20:24:20  <frosch123> oh wait, houses are choosen based on town zones, which is changed while being funded
20:24:38  <frosch123> (you see that by planting lights and such)
20:24:39  * andythenorth knew this wiki page wouldn't be a small job :P
20:24:58  <andythenorth> can't we just remove a lot of features to make documentation easier :P
20:25:01  <frosch123> and houses in inner town zones are usually bigger, or fountains :p
20:25:06  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: "large buildings may appear even in the outskirts of the town"
20:25:17  <Yexo> planetmaker: I'd move also the SetWidgetLoweredState(GLAND_TEMPERATE... lines to UpdateWidgetStatus
20:25:39  <planetmaker> hm... yes, it's done twice, right?
20:25:43  <planetmaker> let me update it
20:25:57  <andythenorth> does building roads encourage town growth (for example by increasing the chance that a random attempt to place a new building will succeed)?
20:25:57  <Yexo> if you move the new game window out of the way, then chose another climate in the main gui the newgame window doesn't update
20:26:07  <Yexo> that is without your patch, but iwth your patch it's easy to fix
20:26:13  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: yes, slightly
20:26:16  <andythenorth> ok
20:26:24  <planetmaker> :-D Ok :-)
20:26:48  <Stese> I do that in games, to stop the blighters running roads over my rails
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20:28:01  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: in each growth step, the town has four choices: a) build a house next to an existing road, b) build a new road and a house immediately next to it, c) only build a new road, d) do nothing [e.g. when no suitible place is found]
20:28:23  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: so if the roads are already there, chance is shifted towards (a)
20:29:21  <Eddi|zuHause> chance for (d) is increased when the town is blocked by water or large stations
20:29:49  <Eddi|zuHause> and reduced by use of tunnels/bridges
20:30:30  <andythenorth> Arctic...amount of says it has an effect.  I think it doesn't as long as it's >=1t per month (reading the code)
20:30:53  <frosch123> yup, one unit in the month before the food is needed is enough
20:30:56  <Yexo> correct, just 1 ton per month required
20:31:06  <planetmaker> Yexo: but I'd need to detect that the climate was changed in the main menu somehow.
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20:31:23  <Yexo> planetmaker: InvalidateWindowClass from the main menu gui
20:31:29  <planetmaker> which requires to query the climate vars.
20:31:37  <Yexo> then in OnInValidate call UpdateWidgetStatus
20:31:52  * planetmaker has to look at that. Sounds nice :-)
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20:33:02  <planetmaker> Yexo: would it make sense to just rename WidgetUpdateStatus to OnInValidate?
20:33:11  <Yexo> yes
20:33:20  <planetmaker> good :-)
20:33:39  <Yexo> that's not the exact name though, dunno what is should be called exactly
20:33:47  <planetmaker> I'll look
20:34:02  <Yexo> virtual void OnInvalidateData(int data)
20:34:12  <planetmaker> InvalidateData() I think
20:34:19  <planetmaker> hm, yes
20:36:47  <Yexo> planetmaker: see also SetNewLandscapeType (but that should use InvalidateWindowClassesData instead of SetWindowClassesDirty)
20:37:37  <Yexo> hmm, that function is copied in both intro_gui.cpp and genworld_gui.cpp
20:37:54  <Yexo> should be merged to a single function and update all the window classes listed in both functions
20:38:54  <Yexo> and then it should probably be used as callback in table/settings.h too
20:38:57  <caribou|> what's wrong with him >>
20:39:34  <andythenorth> no requirements for growth in Toyland
20:39:41  * andythenorth refuses to open toyland code
20:39:48  <Yexo> caribou|: a savegame would help
20:39:58  <andythenorth> does toyland code use funny syntax colouring :P
20:39:59  <andythenorth> ?
20:40:17  <planetmaker> Yexo: I'll look at that, too
20:40:32  <planetmaker> should it become a separate patch? Looks rather like one issue, but I'm not sure
20:40:45  <Yexo> just throw it all in your ptach
20:40:52  <planetmaker> k
20:41:10  <caribou|> Yexo, ok i'm gonna do that
20:41:32  <Yexo> or if you want to split it in two, 1) update landscape buttons in all windows correctly when needed and 2) OnPaint cleanup for newgame gui
20:42:00  <Yexo> that would be better if 1) should be backported, it's not really important though
20:42:16  <planetmaker> :-)
20:42:54  <planetmaker> I'll first see to getting it fixed. Then cutting it into two should be fairly simple
20:47:36  <SpComb> <-- curious
20:47:43  <SpComb> no mention of versions, though
20:49:34  <andythenorth> did I do good or bad :P
20:49:51  <andythenorth> it's a lot of words :o
20:51:07  <caribou|> Yexo,
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20:54:14  <Yexo> caribou|: there is a one-way normal signal a bit further up that track, so it can't find a route
20:55:10  <caribou|> *facepalm*
20:55:13  <caribou|> thanks :/
20:55:24  <Rubidium> SpComb: 0.7.5?
20:55:53  <caribou|> Yexo, oh no i thought i was locating the problem but i didn't
20:56:03  <caribou|> Yexo, you mean at chambéry ?
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20:56:49  <Yexo> tile 35, 80 (use "scrollto 35 80" in the console to center at that tile)
20:58:05  <caribou|> Yexo, the one on the top of the crossroad ?
20:58:24  <Yexo> no, about 3 tiles to the bottom-right
20:59:49  <caribou|> Yexo, this ?
21:00:17  <Yexo> no, this one
21:00:49  <caribou|> Wow !
21:00:58  <caribou|> hidden one, how do you hide the trees ?
21:02:26  <Yexo> ctrl+x to bring up the transparancy window
21:02:26  <andythenorth> wiki editing takes longer than writing code :o
21:02:36  <Yexo> or X to quickly toggle transparancy
21:03:01  <Yexo> after deleting that signal and starting the train you'll have to wait a while for the coal train in the tunnel to come out though
21:04:19  <caribou|> Yexo, ok thanks for the transparency window but it does not really tweak the transparency value, you have no tree at all !
21:04:48  <caribou|> thank you i could have fought for hours with this totally hidden signal here :/
21:04:50  <Yexo> the little green buttons under the bigger buttons
21:05:11  <caribou|> tssss
21:05:14  <caribou|> thanks :/
21:06:43  <Yexo> is nice to read through once
21:08:00  <Jolteon> Either I know a lot.
21:08:03  <Jolteon> or they're not that secret.
21:08:07  <Jolteon> hidden, rather.
21:08:08  <andythenorth> ooh
21:08:13  <andythenorth> auto-service is handy
21:08:44  <caribou|> nice page :D
21:09:12  *** asilv [] has quit []
21:09:15  * andythenorth wonders about the equivalent of "A" for road building
21:09:30  <planetmaker> shift+f8 :-(
21:09:57  <caribou|> is there a way to say on a two way block, "ok the signal is red, you have to wait but don't go back" ?
21:10:07  <andythenorth> shift+f8 not quite the same
21:10:17  <Yexo> shift+F8, 3
21:11:06  <andythenorth> that works
21:11:17  <andythenorth> fricking fn keys on a laptop :|
21:11:24  <Yexo> caribou|: "set wait_twoway_signal 255" in the console changes the setting for your current game
21:11:36  <Yexo> use set_newgame to change it for newgames, or use set while in the main menu
21:11:41  * andythenorth suggest shift+A for autoroad
21:11:59  <Yexo> shift is normally cost estimation
21:12:03  <andythenorth> poop
21:12:08  <andythenorth> ctrl-A?
21:12:19  <caribou|> Yexo, thanks :D
21:12:22  <Yexo> dunno if that's used anywhere, probably not
21:12:47  <andythenorth> conflicts a bit with 'remove' if you already have autorail that an edge case?
21:13:18  <planetmaker> it'd be weired and not matching the concepts
21:13:41  <Yexo> why would it conflict? as soon as you press ctrl+A it'd switch to road building
21:14:01  <Yexo> if you want to remove rail/road with ctrl you have to hold the key anyway, and not press A
21:16:27  * andythenorth searches hotkeys for an empty key that might in some way relate to roads :o
21:17:13  <planetmaker> andythenorth: rather implement custom hotkeys ;-)
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21:19:00  <andythenorth> there's always a way to turn a 1c task into a  dollar task :P
21:19:29  <andythenorth> or should that be a 1 euro task?
21:19:53  <Eddi|zuHause> a key to cycle through rail/road types could be handy
21:21:55  *** Keyboard_Warrior [~holyduck@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:22:45  * andythenorth looks for free keys
21:23:39  * andythenorth forgot...ottd is a train game  9.9
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21:34:01  <andythenorth> what does "H" do?
21:34:06  <andythenorth>
21:34:17  <andythenorth> I've tested it, can't get any result
21:35:05  <peter1138> burns your fingers
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21:35:36  <andythenorth> on this laptop there is actually a reasonable chance that could happen :P
21:35:57  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you need to have an order window open...
21:36:03  <andythenorth> I do
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21:36:42  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe it's outdated information
21:36:44  <Nite_Owl> Hello all
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21:39:59  <andythenorth> if "H" does nothing, it could open the auto-road tool :)
21:40:08  <andythenorth> and 'Y' could cycle road/rail types
21:41:03  <Yexo> both of these are annoying, as they're on the right-hand side of the keyboard (assuming qwerty layout)
21:41:33  * SmatZ likes ctrl+A, no matter it's not platfom-compatible (yes, I am selfish PC user) and non-unified
21:41:42  <SmatZ> oops, shift+A
21:42:00  <SmatZ> what about ctrl+A?
21:42:08  <andythenorth> I like ctrl+A
21:42:21  <Yexo> nothing  is wrong with ctrl+A, I'd like it
21:42:27  <andythenorth> where is the code for hotkeys, or what should I search for?
21:42:31  <SmatZ> nice :-)
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21:44:20  <planetmaker> <-- Yexo updated version. But not yet separated.
21:44:49  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: something like "switch (keycode)"
21:44:52  <andythenorth> toolbar_gui.cpp to answer my own question
21:45:31  <Yexo> OnInvalidateData();
21:45:31  <Yexo>  <- missing this->
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21:46:32  <caribou|> i just wanted to reorganize a train station so i bombed it, and then the town is telling me that i can't build again, GNNN ?
21:47:05  <Yexo> planetmaker: and the OnInvalidateData after SetNewLandscapeType is not needed because SetNewLandscapeType already does that
21:47:24  <planetmaker> hm this-> is true :-)
21:47:37  <planetmaker> Yes... I thought I removed that. thanks
21:47:40  <Yexo> caribou|: easy to way work around that is to plant a bunch of trees to increase the station rating
21:47:49  <Yexo> planetmaker: last chunk in intro_gui.cpp
21:47:55  <caribou|> Yexo, thank you :
21:48:05  <planetmaker> ah, then I only removed it in genworld
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21:50:41  <caribou|> sorry again... i forgot to link my train station to my docks, is there a way to do that after having built it ?
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21:50:46  <andythenorth> hmm
21:50:58  <planetmaker> caribou|: no
21:51:04  <caribou|> ok :D
21:51:23  <andythenorth> I have ctrl-A opening the road toolbar, but it won't compile if I try and specify which button should be pressed (I'm copying from the autorail example)
21:51:26  <SmatZ> something like this
21:51:27  <planetmaker> I'd delete the dock, though
21:51:30  <SmatZ> but it IS broken :-p
21:51:41  <andythenorth> do I need to expand ShowBuildRoadToolbar
21:51:51  <SmatZ> because Ctrl is used for toggling Remove
21:53:41  <andythenorth> hmmm
21:53:50  <planetmaker> Yexo: updated version
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21:55:11  <Yexo> planetmaker: still missing the "this->" in several places
21:55:42  <Yexo> and you change the indentation of a line with only "}", it was correct
21:57:14  <Yexo> but if you split the patch in 2 parts I'll fix the remaining style issues and commit it
21:59:35  <planetmaker> hm... looks like the wrong patch version I uploaded
22:01:24  <SmatZ> yodaspeak :)
22:02:18  <planetmaker> :-)
22:03:55  <planetmaker> yes... wrong diff. hg diff -rXXX:tip doesn't consider the not-commited changes :S
22:04:33  <Yexo> you could try hg diff -rXXX, but I doubt that does what you want
22:05:19  <Yexo> hmm, that actually works
22:07:19  <planetmaker> actually yes
22:08:28  *** fonsinchen [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:08:45  <planetmaker> I guess I split the patch after some sleep. That's better :-)
22:09:54  <andythenorth> SmatZ: ctrl-A....sort of works ok
22:10:05  <andythenorth> I don't find it confusing
22:11:00  <planetmaker> unsplit version. Split version will follow tomorrow.
22:11:16  <planetmaker> have a good night folks
22:11:22  <Rubidium> what about < and > to switch road/rail types? Or is that too tricky w.r.t. non-US-ish keyboard layouts? Also the need to press the shift?
22:11:26  <planetmaker> and thanks Yexo for your patience and comments :-)
22:11:35  <Yexo> np
22:11:37  <Yexo> good night planetmaker
22:11:53  <planetmaker> Rubidium: sounds fine for me
22:12:14  <Yexo> do we already use tab? can we use that to switch to next rail/road type?
22:12:51  <andythenorth> Rubidium: sounds good to me
22:12:55  <andythenorth> tab is fast-forward
22:12:56  <planetmaker> Yexo: that's rather usually reserved to switch between windows...
22:13:02  <planetmaker> anyway :-)
22:13:03  * planetmaker waves
22:13:12  <andythenorth> good night
22:13:16  <Yexo> not ctrl+tab or alt+tab, but just tab
22:13:19  <Nite_Owl> later planetmaker
22:13:30  <Rubidium> Yexo: tab = fast forward
22:13:36  <andythenorth> currently tab has a strange non-latching f-foward behaviour :o
22:13:37  <Yexo> ah, I forgot that one
22:13:44  <andythenorth> never noticed it before....
22:13:58  <Rubidium> but only in release builds (I think)
22:14:01  <Yexo> I usually run a debug build and there shift is fast forward
22:14:10  <caribou|> entry PS > combo PS > combo PS > combo PS > exit PS is ok ?
22:14:48  <caribou|> on the wiki examples i can't find trees with more than 3 levels :/
22:14:59  <Yexo> yes, that works
22:15:23  <caribou|> ok thanks
22:15:28  <Yexo> but usually replacing the entry signal with a pbs signal and removing all other signals is a lot easier
22:18:02  <andythenorth> good night
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22:18:22  <Eddi|zuHause> i have never understood the reasoning of using a different FF key for debug and release
22:18:39  <Eddi|zuHause> ... and i never use fast forward...
22:19:59  <Yexo> I've never understood the reason for that either, but I often use FF when debugging
22:21:00  <Rubidium> I *think* it had to do with the alt-tab bug
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22:22:05  <Eddi|zuHause> for a person like me, an unstripped but otherwise equivalent to release build is best
22:22:07  <Yexo> anyway, a hotkey to switch ff would be nice (as in, press the shortcut and ff is toggled)
22:22:15  <Yexo> currently tab/shift just enables is while pressed
22:22:44  <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause: msvc release build with pcb file available
22:23:22  <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: you could try to argue a renaligning of the F##-keys with the toolbar
22:24:03  <Yexo> I should have thought of that before 1.0
22:24:15  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, my same thought ;)
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22:26:14  <ccfreak2k> What is FF.
22:26:39  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: there aren't enough F## keys
22:27:02  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: you mean "we need more modificator keys" ;)
22:27:08  <Nite_Owl> Fast Forward ??
22:27:32  <Rubidium> (although there weren't in the past either)
22:29:12  <Yexo> ctrl + FXX are unused
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22:56:36  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... this survivor guy always quintuple-posts... it's way too much to read at once
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23:03:02  <Rubidium> heh, you forgot that allocating objects on the heap means wasting at least 4 bytes for allocation metadata, not even speaking about the minimum allocation size of somewhere between 16 and 32 bytes depending on the platform
23:03:18  <Rubidium> and that an array of pointers is already almost as big as the current map array
23:03:33  <Rubidium> and *if* he wants a separate heightmap array, it is on 64 bits as big as the current map array
23:04:40  <Yexo> why is that? can't you have a byte-sized array on 64 bit platforms?
23:04:55  <Rubidium> Yexo: he can
23:05:05  *** Brianetta [] has quit [Quit: TschÌß]
23:05:13  *** Coco-Banana-Man [] has quit [Quit: Regel Nr. 1: Jeder hört auf mein Kommando! - Regel Nr. 2: Jeder bleibt auf dem Weg! - Regel Nr. 3: ... ... Der, der blÀht, als hinterster geht!]
23:05:19  <Rubidium> but a pointer sized array + byte sized array == an 8 byte sized array + byte sized array (assuming 64 bits)
23:05:31  <Yexo> ah, that part :)
23:05:58  <Rubidium> also you seem to have missed my little profile digging of "yesterday"
23:06:12  <Yexo> I read some of that
23:06:26  <Yexo> pathfinding not being very espensive was part of it, the tileloop being very expensive
23:06:57  *** tintiri [] has joined #openttd
23:08:27  *** xOR is now known as xOR^CS
23:09:39  <Eddi|zuHause> pathfinding is not very expensive due to a template guru coming along a couple years ago ;)
23:10:10  <Eddi|zuHause> the (pseudo-)object oriented approach was kinda... not fast :p
23:11:11  <Eddi|zuHause> i remember discussions like "this will be even faster than the original pathfinder" :p
23:13:41  <Eddi|zuHause> soo... apparently we have a spammer amongst us...
23:14:38  <Eddi|zuHause> what's a ""?
23:15:15  *** Wizzleby [] has joined #openttd
23:18:45  <__ln__> we do?
23:18:53  <lennard> yes, yes we do
23:20:03  <Eddi|zuHause> well, the last person to join before my statement...
23:23:18  *** valhallasw [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:23:58  <Ammler> I can confirm that spamer, #oftc is already sleeping, so the might be no global kill
23:24:16  <Progman> <tintiri> - Bringing you the newest music around the web !
23:24:28  <Ammler> never paste spam!
23:25:21  *** JostVice [] has left #openttd []
23:26:06  <lennard> it sortof looks like its using an evil bug, too
23:26:18  <lennard> I mean, both hostname and whois ip are just wrong
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23:27:35  <Rubidium> @kb tintiri
23:27:45  <Rubidium> oh... stupid bot
23:28:42  <ccfreak2k> Now is the day of your discount tent.
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