Log for #openttd on 7th June 2010:
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00:20:24  <qubodup> hello
00:21:23  <qubodup> how would I install the music pack?
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00:26:46  <qubodup> cp: missing destination file operand after `openmsx-0.2.1'
00:31:28  <qubodup> well, I used the downloadable thing, but no music plays
00:31:42  <qubodup> the music player quickly switches between track names but plays none
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00:43:50  <Eddi|zuHause> linux? installed timidity?
01:10:15  <qubodup> i have not
01:10:41  <qubodup> no mention in the readme. I'll install it, thanks!
01:10:48  <qubodup> but first: sleep
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04:42:37  <SmatZ> morning
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08:02:09  <planetmaker> @ports
08:02:10  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
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08:28:08  <dihedral> pm: did you forget? :-P
08:30:11  <planetmaker> why not use c&p when it's available?
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13:06:19  <Belugas> Hello
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14:20:08  <Alberth> I am trying to interpret nfo code written for the mini airport state machine by yexo, without much luck
14:20:09  <Alberth> <-- my program used to decode, around line 62 starts the interesting parsing stuff
14:20:26  <Alberth>  the sprite and the output of the program
14:20:54  <Alberth> nvar looks very wrong, but why?
14:21:17  <planetmaker> ok, first question: you are aware that there's no NFO specs so far for airport state machines?
14:21:31  <planetmaker> except the drafts of the airports branch of course
14:21:33  <Alberth> I have some stuff by pikka
14:21:39  <Alberth> but yes
14:21:40  <Yexo> if feature == 5 or feature == 0x0b or feature >= 0x0e: return None <- that isn't correct
14:21:52  <planetmaker> yeah. That's at least partially based on Yexo's work :-)
14:22:01  <Yexo> planetmaker: it's the other way around
14:22:31  <planetmaker> well :-) You did the OpenTTD coding which I referred to. Pikka might have come first with some specs, yes
14:22:53  <Yexo> Alberth: variables 0x60-0x7F have a variable (byte) that directly follows the var number, in this case 0x00
14:23:01  <Yexo> the 0x60 you read as and-mask is actually shift-num
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14:24:16  <Yexo> and because it has the 0x20 bit set it's an advanced varaction2
14:24:42  <planetmaker> oh the joy of NFO readability ;-)
14:25:18  <Alberth> planetmaker: I gave up on manual interpretation :)
14:25:30  <planetmaker> :-)
14:25:50  <Alberth> Yexo: my program also concluded that now, I need to do a bit more programming :)
14:26:07  <planetmaker> Alberth, what programme is that? nfo2nml?
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14:26:52  <Alberth> Yexo: as for the feature check, those values don't have a 'related' object, so I thought they never would happen
14:26:58  <Yexo> Alberth: those patches might help you
14:27:10  <planetmaker> :-D
14:27:12  <Yexo> they read a grf (not nfo yet) and parse it into an nml ast
14:27:23  <planetmaker> :-O
14:27:24  <Yexo> Alberth: airports have "planes" as related object
14:27:54  <Yexo> code is not very clean and far from finished, but the varaction2 code is complete IIRC
14:29:51  <Rubidium> so when you've got the ast->nml you can make nml a linter as well :)
14:29:57  <Alberth> airports are 0x0d in my document, so < 0x0e
14:30:19  <Rubidium> or code formatter :)
14:31:34  <Yexo> ah, you're right, I confused them with airport tiles
14:32:04  <Yexo> Rubidium: ast->nml is already done (not 100% complete, but enough for now)
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15:33:26  <Ruudjah> hi all
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15:33:53  <Ruudjah> I'm a longtime fan of TTDX/openttd
15:34:27  <Forked> welcome :)
15:34:34  <Ruudjah> I'm an open source advacate through the dutch Pirate Party (Piratenpartij)
15:35:44  <Ruudjah> OpenTTD rocks, and if I wasnt going for elections in The Netherlands, I'd be playing it ;)
15:36:37  <Ruudjah> My question is: are you guys familiar with Pirate Party, and if so, do you think removing copyright will harm OSS in any way?
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15:37:33  <Alberth> Yexo:    fancy some nfo input? :p
15:38:16  <Rubidium> Ruudjah: I think it will; if there isn't copyright everyone can do whatever what they like with it *including* closing the source
15:38:44  <planetmaker> ^
15:38:47  <Ruudjah> How should we fix this?
15:39:02  <planetmaker> disallowing software patents
15:39:07  <Hirundo> Copyright => no one is allowed to copy your work => good
15:39:13  <Yexo> lol, wouldn't it be much easier to just take #954 to get nfo input?
15:39:26  <Hirundo> Software patents => No one can do anything like your work => bad
15:39:30  <Rubidium> reduce copyright to say 10 years and forbidding software patents, or limit their applicability to only one year
15:39:31  <Ruudjah> right, software patents is explicitly disallowed in our program
15:39:51  <planetmaker> mind that I cannot vote for you missing Dutch citizenship ;-)
15:39:52  <Markk> Europe don't have software patents?
15:39:58  <planetmaker> Markk, effectively they do
15:39:59  <Ruudjah> we say: copyright for personal use is free (no copyright), commercial use is maximum of 5 years
15:40:12  <Ruudjah> EU does not officially have software patents
15:40:22  <planetmaker> but de facto
15:40:30  <planetmaker> look at the policy of the European patent office
15:40:34  <Ruudjah> though it is possible to patent business processes which effectively makes EU have SP
15:40:50  <andythenorth> Copyright (or at least, author's right) is necessary to ensure freedom.  GPL is a beautiful legal construction in the way it uses copyright to provide copyleft :)
15:41:12  <Ruudjah> the viral part of GPL is being undone when removing copyright at all
15:41:36  <Ruudjah> except when you reduce commercial copyright to 5 years
15:41:37  <planetmaker> exactly. And that's bad ;-)
15:41:49  <planetmaker> (removing the viral part of GPL)
15:41:58  <Rubidium> Ruudjah: no copyright implies public domain which implies anything can be done with it which implies any licensing is null and void
15:42:06  <Hirundo> Ruudjah: 5 years starting when ?
15:42:11  <Ruudjah> Rubidium:correct
15:42:22  <Ruudjah> except for commercial
15:42:28  <Ruudjah> within terms of 5 year
15:42:37  <Ruudjah> 5 years starting from publication
15:42:47  <planetmaker> 5 years is not much
15:42:51  <planetmaker> What's publication?
15:42:58  <planetmaker> Release of source? Release of binary?
15:43:01  <Ruudjah> enough for artists to make money of off it
15:43:01  <Rubidium> yet OSS is usually not commerical, which means you'll just kill OSS
15:43:12  <Alberth> Ruudjah: what about books?
15:43:35  <Ruudjah> books have the ability to get your ROI within 5 years
15:44:02  <Ruudjah> So: removing copyright 'will destroy OSS'.
15:44:09  <Ruudjah> How can we fix this?
15:44:19  <Rubidium> ask your lawyer
15:44:22  <Ruudjah> 1: not removing copyright
15:44:38  <Yexo> why do you want to remove copyright so bad anyway?
15:44:39  <Ruudjah> you guys seem to have put quite some thought into the issue
15:44:43  <planetmaker> copyright per se is not bad
15:44:48  <Alberth> Yexo: SPRITENAME handling seems to be missing in the parser
15:45:02  <Yexo> in theory it's good (if everyone would share all information), in practice it'll be very bad (because a lot of people/companies will keep everything to themselfs)
15:45:07  <Ruudjah> so I am reckoning you guys have an idea in where the soution may be
15:45:10  <planetmaker> especially in a commercial environment it's probably more good than harm
15:45:18  <Ruudjah> well
15:45:32  <Ruudjah> a *very* important part which i forgot to tell
15:45:41  <Alberth> Ruudjah: ask around in the digital rights movement
15:45:43  <Ruudjah> is that we *require* (when possible and sensible)
15:45:53  <Ruudjah> to add source
15:45:56  <planetmaker> But extending copyright such that all personal use is limited beyond repair; that's where current copyright goes wrong
15:46:00  <Ruudjah> a reference to the source
15:46:20  <Yexo> Alberth: in the parser of #954? could be, yorick wrote that and I didn't check it at all so far
15:46:43  <Hirundo> add such a reference to what?
15:46:50  <Alberth> Ruudjah: so it is at http://www.verweggistan.somewhere/  unfortunately, the server never seems up
15:46:55  <Ruudjah> problem with copyright is big corporations want to enforce copyirght, therefore internet connections must be monitored
15:47:14  <planetmaker> that's not a logical line one has to follow
15:47:17  <andythenorth> Ruudjah: I'm doing a fairly large open source contract building software for government.  if there was no copyright, we couldn't meaningfully open source it
15:47:24  <andythenorth> but we will
15:47:27  <Ruudjah> right
15:47:30  <andythenorth> because copyright exists.
15:47:46  <Yexo> Ruudjah: that is a complete wrong aproach, they "want to monitor internet connections", that doesn't mean they'll have to be allowed to do that
15:47:55  <planetmaker> Just because a book is copyrighted doesn't mean I have to leave my fingerprint and the unique of the book stored online so that I cannot sell it or make a personal copy to cite parts of it when having a discussion with my peer group
15:48:10  <Ruudjah> In france, they implemented HADOPI law, which effectively does just that
15:48:16  <Yexo> and as said before, copyright is not only bad, and not only big corporations want to enforce copyright
15:48:26  <Ruudjah> in most other western countries they want to enforce copyright law through ACTA
15:48:40  <Yexo> did you read anything about the problems with the ipad port? that was openttd/apple enforcing openttd copyright
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15:48:41  <planetmaker> Ruudjah, monitoring is not about copyright... The main point of (or rather agains) monitoring of activities like that on a general level is freedom.
15:48:49  <Alberth> Ruudjah: OSS also wants to enforce their rights
15:48:52  <planetmaker> The very one also granted by your constitution, I'm sure
15:49:09  * andythenorth ponders
15:49:29  <Ruudjah> freedom is taken away under the excuse of copyright
15:49:39  <andythenorth> in theory....if monitoring *didn't* piss off lots of people resp. freedom, would monitoring be desirable to protect GPL software
15:49:42  <andythenorth> ??
15:49:48  <Ruudjah> 1: restore freedom, 2: fix copyright in a digital age
15:50:01  <Ruudjah> no.
15:50:14  <Rubidium> copyright isn't the problem, the problem is the invasive ways they are controlling it in
15:50:47  <andythenorth> what would the theoretical correct answer be to GPL violations?
15:50:51  <Ruudjah> if you do not have copyright, or only have copyright in a form which is desirable in an internet age, you don't need controlling internet for that reason
15:51:36  <Hirundo> andythenorth: Taking the case to court, I think (after sending the general legal letters and stuff)
15:51:41  <Rubidium> copyright *is* the way to enforce open source stuff
15:51:44  <Ruudjah> well, we could extend the requirement that when you remix existing work, you should not only refer to it, but also include the original sourcecode
15:51:45  <Yexo> andythenorth: sue them till they release the source?
15:52:11  <Ruudjah> because the problem with removing copyright, is that the source isnt needed to be there, or a reference
15:52:27  <andythenorth> lets say someone mods a GPLed OSS project, and does a distribution that violates GPL...if that distribution was discovered by a monitoring service, is that inherently evil?
15:52:33  <Ruudjah> enforcing to put the reference *and* the orginal work, will solve the problem?
15:52:36  * andythenorth doesn't advocate monitoring btw
15:52:55  <Yexo> Ruudjah: so if I buy two pieces of source code (with a license that allows me ot use it commercially), then make a new program based on those 2 pieces of source code and sell that, would I need to include the source code? that would be very bad
15:53:46  <Ruudjah> ideally yes, but current world doesnt work with OSS/free information in mind
15:53:51  <Ruudjah> so
15:54:14  <Ruudjah> no, it would harm the software industry because not everyone thinks open yet
15:54:19  <Ruudjah> but
15:54:28  <Yexo> andythenorth: finding illegal acts via monitoring isn't bad in itself, the problem (as I see it)  is the many ways that very same monitoring can and will be abused when it's in effect
15:54:50  <Rubidium> Ruudjah: without (most) of the rest of the world changing the rules at the same time, it'll fail ugly anyway
15:55:11  * andythenorth thinks this is a nice debate....but back to work making OSS and not-so-OSS software :P
15:55:12  <Ruudjah> we should not enforce opening up source code. We should as a government make sure opening up can be done in society
15:55:27  <Ruudjah> Rubidium: we shou;d start somewhere
15:55:37  <Yexo> opening up source code can already be done by (for example) using the gpl
15:56:11  <Ruudjah> correct. Encouraging it facilitated by the goverment helps making the world more open
15:56:13  <Ruudjah> ie
15:56:30  <Ruudjah> if the government wants to use certain software, government can buy the source and publish it
15:56:45  <Rubidium> Ruudjah: how do you handle stuff copyrighted abroad under the "current" rules?
15:56:46  <Ruudjah> so every citizen can benefit/improve it
15:57:28  <Ruudjah> when we would write law today, tomorrow current copyrighted stuff would get a 5 year counter
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15:57:53  <Rubidium> Ruudjah: so, in 5 years we can request Windows 7's source code?
15:57:54  <Hirundo> The govt can publish the source only if it has full ownership of the source code, which IIRC is often not the case
15:58:11  <Ruudjah> no, in 5 years you can use windows7 freely
15:58:19  <planetmaker> <andythenorth> in theory....if monitoring *didn't* piss off lots of people resp. freedom, would monitoring be desirable to protect GPL software <-- monitoring human behaviour in general is IMHO a violation of my rights to privacy
15:58:27  <Ruudjah> Hirundo: the goverment has the power to buy it, then publish it
15:58:42  <Ruudjah> as a big customer
15:59:20  <Ruudjah> in contract negotiations govt cn say: sure, we'll buy your product, but you need to open up the source. We will pay for that, also
15:59:27  <Hirundo> Companies generally won't allow that without significant compensation, since it may contain large portions of their IP
16:00:00  <Hirundo> public ICT projects will then cost even more than they do now
16:00:07  <Ruudjah> IP is what we want to get rid off. We want EP: Extellectual Property
16:00:30  <Rubidium> IP is generally patents
16:00:35  <Ruudjah> knowledge property not internal, but external for everyone to share/benefit from
16:00:45  <Rubidium> so getting rid of software patents is way better than removing copyright on software
16:00:57  <Ruudjah> right
16:01:09  <planetmaker> Ruudjah, putting everything into the public domain after 5 years will basically ruin the profit one can make on intellectual property
16:01:18  <Ruudjah> So we would need to make specific rulings for OSS software/OS data
16:01:30  <Ruudjah> planetmaker: that is correct
16:01:33  <andythenorth> it's a strange twist of fate that patents were originally constructed to *ensure* freedom of intellectual property
16:01:39  <andythenorth> something went wrong along the road :o
16:01:46  <Ruudjah> thats why we advocate for a model wehere companies will make money using expertise, not knowledge
16:02:01  <Ruudjah> better sell the service around the data, not the data itself
16:02:15  * andythenorth isn't sure what the difference is between knowledge and expertise :o
16:02:28  <Ruudjah> expertise=experience with knowledge
16:02:44  <Yexo> <Ruudjah> books have the ability to get your ROI within 5 years <- they don't hva ethat ability when everyone knows that the books will be (nearly) free 5 years later
16:02:48  <Hirundo> Ruudjah: Is the GPL so bad? Why 'fix' (governments tend to break stuff) what isn't broken
16:02:57  <Yexo> at least most books aren't outdated 5 years later
16:03:05  <Ruudjah> GPL=awesome
16:03:24  <Ruudjah> but is based on monopolisation of information laws
16:03:31  <Ruudjah> GPL=anti monopolisation
16:03:45  <Ruudjah> thus, GPL should be based on non monopolisation laws
16:04:28  <Ruudjah> Yexo: people still buy printed copies
16:04:49  <Ruudjah> writer still can sell printed copies, only a handfull will wait 5 years
16:05:06  <Yexo> Ruudjah: if the copyright is only valid for 5 years then after 5 years everyone can create printed copies after 5 years
16:05:15  <Ruudjah> yup
16:05:23  <Yexo> and I think many people will wait if they _know_ it's legal and cheap 5 years later
16:05:26  <Ruudjah> so the first 5 years, writer is able to make his money
16:05:32  <Yexo> currently people don't because the price after 5 years will be the same anyway
16:05:36  <Alberth> except nobody will buy the book
16:05:40  <Ruudjah> people download those books now, too
16:06:02  <Rubidium> I think it will only exagerate the current escalation of RIAA/MPAA and such
16:06:02  <Ruudjah> people still buy books *while they know downloading it is legal and free as in beer*
16:06:20  <Ruudjah> (legal in The Netherlands)
16:06:25  <Alberth> I like a paper version, so why buy harry potter now versus wait 5 years if every company can print them?
16:06:41  <Ruudjah> because you prbably want to read it now
16:06:53  <Ruudjah> at least most people want to
16:07:21  <Hirundo> Free printed copies are hard to get, though, and dead trees tend to read more nicely than screens
16:07:36  <Ruudjah> the main point is that information wants to be free. Any law monopolizing information is futile in the end
16:08:16  <Hirundo> No, monopolization encourages creating that information in the first place
16:08:20  <Alberth> Ruudjah: as long as industry lives from the fact that they can sell many copies to many individuals, that is not going to change
16:08:30  <Ruudjah> so, people, artist, writers, musicians, sofwtare devvers, companies, all need to develop a business model not around knowledge or information itself, but develop a business model around expetrtise, services around data
16:08:53  <Ruudjah> Alberth: this is something they do less and less
16:09:14  <Yexo> Ruudjah: no offence, but if you're running for the elections in a few days, isn't it a bit late to discuss all of this now? Shouldn't you have had a good idea of how to handle all this _months ago_?
16:09:32  <Ruudjah> well
16:09:42  <Ruudjah> the discussion is never over
16:09:43  <Alberth> Ruudjah: not only industry that sells information
16:09:48  <Ruudjah> we discussed it before
16:09:53  <Ruudjah> also with other communities
16:09:57  <Alberth> also industry that sells eg cooking pans
16:10:05  <andythenorth> Ruudjah: " all need to develop a business model not around knowledge or information itself, but develop a business model around expetrtise, services around data" <- I agree, but I tell you it's fricking difficult
16:10:22  <Alberth> if not impossible
16:10:23  * andythenorth is trying every day to make payroll on the basis of expertise
16:10:30  <Ruudjah> our party program is never done
16:10:36  <Ruudjah> and develops always
16:10:53  <Ruudjah> The current program is written with OSS in mind from a copyright perspective
16:11:11  <Ruudjah> thats why we require references to the source
16:11:28  <Alberth> Yexo: that parser also seems to work after small corrections
16:11:43  <Ruudjah> Yup. those business models are hard to develop
16:12:01  <Alberth> Ruudjah: if you take on something fundalemental as copyright, you need to look at EVERY form of product, not just digital things
16:12:03  <Ruudjah> but not impossible
16:12:21  <Ruudjah> It is
16:12:35  <Ruudjah> at least we tried, and I think we covered most of it
16:12:51  <Ruudjah> But there are always small niches in where not enough thought is put into it
16:13:06  <Ruudjah> (OSS not being one of them)
16:14:04  <Yexo> Alberth: I'd like both a grf and nfo parser in nml, so if you have a framework that support both (where the code parsing the various actions is shared) feel free to commit it
16:14:05  <Hirundo> Ruudjah: Are you purely focused on copyright, or does your program also include statements wrt. e.g. economy, education, integration ?
16:14:15  <Ruudjah> but copyright is mostly relevant in a digital world since most information is made digitally nowadays
16:14:35  <Ruudjah> We are not a one-issue-party, but we are a themeparty
16:14:41  <Ruudjah> the theme being information
16:14:43  <Hirundo> I beg to disagree
16:14:47  <Hirundo> The cooking pan I'll be using to prepare my meal contains information
16:15:04  <Ruudjah> from an information perspective we look to politics
16:15:33  * Rubidium wonders how much the pirate party has thought stuff through
16:15:33  <Ruudjah> so ie for medcare, we say: remove farma patents, and we free up 4 billion ( €) per year in NL
16:15:34  <Hirundo> Everything around us, that we touch, contains information, most of which is covered by some form of copyright
16:15:46  <Hirundo> But who will develop new medicines ?
16:15:50  <Ruudjah> Rudidium: why?
16:16:06  <Alberth> Ruudjah: you seem to find new information here
16:16:06  <Ruudjah> current industry does hardly develop new medicines
16:16:07  <Rubidium> Ruudjah: "briefgeheim" doesn't apply to postcards
16:16:33  <Ruudjah> they only use farmapatents to ensure income
16:17:00  <Ruudjah> they only spend about 17% of their income to R&D, mostly for medicines we already have
16:17:05  <Rubidium> so when you don't package a letter in a non-tranlucent enveloppe it doesn't fall under "briefgeheim"
16:17:06  <TrueBrain> hmm .. I love my rented car ...... I should only not drive like a maniac :D :) :) :)
16:17:24  <orudge_> 'lo TrueBrain
16:17:55  <Rubidium> normal emails are like postcards, so no "briefgeheim"; when you encrypt the email it can be considered as a letter in a non-translucent enveloppe and thus "briefgeheim" applies
16:17:58  <Hirundo> There is a constant need for new antibiotics and such due to resistance issues
16:18:03  <Ruudjah> so we do think about economics, healthcare, etc, but from information perspective
16:18:26  <Hirundo> Information won't get you €30 billion
16:18:34  <Ruudjah> 4 to start with
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16:18:53  <Ruudjah> then: the first country realizing information should be free, wins the R&D of the world
16:19:20  <Ruudjah> since any R&D department is not hampered by any juridical issues surrounding ideas/designs/information/etc
16:19:31  <Hirundo> No, it will scare away all R&D since they can't make as much money here
16:19:33  <Ruudjah> so there we'd boost our economy
16:19:51  <Ruudjah> at first sight, they'd be scared maybe
16:19:59  <Hirundo> The massive 'changes in business models
16:20:12  <Hirundo> can't be done without a serious recession
16:20:16  <glx> copyright is not a problem, patents are
16:20:19  <Ruudjah> untill they see that liberating information from monpolization gives enourmous power to R&D
16:20:49  <glx> and BTW HADOPI is still not applied ;)
16:20:50  <Ruudjah> enforcing copyright will get us laws like HADOPI and treaties such as ACTA
16:20:50  <Alberth> Ruudjah: so your efforts should not be against copyright, but to change business models. Other stuff like copyright will disappear by itself
16:20:51  <Hirundo> It's a prisoners dilemma, liberation is only useful if the rest does it as well
16:21:06  <Ruudjah> true
16:21:09  <TrueBrain> Ruudjah: any reason why CZ was never put back in rotation?
16:21:30  <Ruudjah> Ruudjah: any reason why CZ was never put back in rotation? -->Czech?
16:21:37  <glx> HADOPI is not about copyrights, it's about majors' money
16:21:50  <Alberth> Yexo: I just started this afternoon, and have no connection to nml ast, so you are ahead of me in that respect
16:21:51  <Ruudjah> when there is no copyright, HADOPI is useless
16:21:52  <Hirundo> Judging by ACTA, it's unlikely that they (= the rest) will
16:22:09  <TrueBrain> Ruudjah: ? Wtf?
16:22:11  <TrueBrain> stupid IRC
16:22:12  <glx> but copyright is not the problem
16:22:18  <TrueBrain> Rubidium: any reason why CZ was never put back in rotation?
16:22:19  <glx> copyright is good
16:22:27  <Yexo> Alberth: I haven't worked on it for some time, and I won't do so in the next week
16:22:37  <TrueBrain> (sorry Ruudjah, my tab-complete failed .. yo have a poor name :p :p)
16:22:50  <Rubidium> TrueBrain: forgetting it?
16:23:05  <TrueBrain> Rubidium: well, you removed it, so I Expected you would put it back when the troubles were over ;)
16:23:15  <TrueBrain> is it safe to put back?
16:23:20  <Rubidium> don't know
16:23:21  <Ruudjah> to answer a question put here a few mins ago
16:23:29  <TrueBrain> Rubidium: what were the issues? :)
16:23:48  <Rubidium> TrueBrain: it not updating
16:23:55  <Rubidium> and it still isn't updating
16:23:57  <Ruudjah> Alberth		Ruudjah: you seem to find new information here --> no, but I am wondering if there are any ideas I don't know of yet
16:24:14  <Rubidium> TrueBrain: for about 2 months now
16:24:24  <TrueBrain> why nobody ever told me that :(
16:24:45  <Alberth> Yexo: is it a good idea to extend in that direction now? nml seems to have enough problem atm
16:24:48  <glx> TrueBrain: wrong certificate ?
16:24:59  <TrueBrain> cant make an SSH connection
16:25:00  <Alberth> problems*
16:25:01  <Ruudjah> As OTTD is a community with people very aware of copyright, I am thinking people are here having good ideas how to fix the current problem
16:25:30  <Alberth> Ruudjah: imho those are two different things
16:26:02  <Ruudjah> you mean copyright and the problem?
16:26:15  <Alberth> knowing the current situation is not the same as knowing how to rotate the world in 180 degrees
16:26:20  <glx> DRM are a bigger problem than copyright (usually complicates legit users life)
16:26:28  <Hirundo> Ruudjah: - ban software patents   - revoke mickey mouse protection laws
16:27:18  <Ruudjah> mickey mouse protection laws= trademark + copyright
16:27:26  <Hirundo> If you manage that, you've come pretty far
16:27:42  <Ruudjah> first step is to talk about this all in dutch parliament
16:28:01  <Hirundo>
16:28:15  <Ruudjah> if we manage to do that, we can sprout solutions, maybe your solution
16:28:16  <Alberth> Ruudjah: software patent is basically copyright on ideas. That is bad
16:28:54  <Hirundo> Ruudjah: You're missing a vital point: First step is to get into the parliament in the first place
16:28:57  <Ruudjah> We explicitly want to ban SW patents
16:29:05  <Ruudjah> :)
16:29:13  <TrueBrain> Ruudjah: nightlies should now be a bit faster, as it will no longer wait for a timeout of the CZ mirror :p
16:29:16  <TrueBrain> grrr
16:29:20  <TrueBrain> Ruudjah: change your name
16:29:24  <TrueBrain> Rubidium: nightlies should now be a bit faster, as it will no longer wait for a timeout of the CZ mirror :p
16:29:26  <Ruudjah> Hirundo: true, we are working on that too. Pirates already are in the EU parliament
16:29:40  <Ruudjah> TrueBrain: lol :)
16:30:21  <Ruudjah> wednesday we want to make a step to be in the Dutch National parliament
16:30:36  <Ruudjah> (elections in NL)
16:31:12  <Hirundo> Getting elected in an economic crisis, yet without a serious economic program, seems very hard to me
16:31:42  <Ruudjah> Well
16:32:06  <Ruudjah> in NL, there is a bureau which calculates all programs of each party
16:32:32  <Ruudjah> but the model they use would endup the other way around for Pirate party.
16:32:39  <TrueBrain> Rubidium: I emailed the sysop of CZ mirror what is going on :)
16:32:54  <Ruudjah> ie: we say filesharing is a + on economics, while the bureau says its a - (minus)
16:33:39  <Alberth> so proof the bureau is wrong
16:33:49  <Ruudjah> We will if we have the time & resources
16:34:04  <Hirundo> Too late now, I'm afraid
16:34:17  <Ruudjah> we first need to get elected, so it's a chicken-egg problem
16:34:33  <planetmaker> <Ruudjah> We will if we have the time & resources <-- someone with a claim not commonly accepted has to come with the proof a-priory ;-)
16:36:03  * Alberth does not believe movies and music sharing is good for economy at all
16:36:17  <Alberth> perhaps good for persons, but not for economy
16:36:30  <Hirundo> economy = amount of $ moved around
16:36:32  <planetmaker> it depends I think on where you put the barriers
16:36:38  * Rubidium wonders what license a cadaver falls under :)
16:36:40  <Hirundo> free downloading = less $
16:36:49  <Alberth> Hirundo: exactly
16:36:51  <Ruudjah> we better move money around in places where it helps economy somewhere
16:36:53  <planetmaker> Alberth, society is more important than economy - which is only a sub-part of society ;-)
16:37:04  <Ruudjah> If we can make sure artists get paid, they continue to make more stuff
16:37:14  <Hirundo> How do you do that? subsidize ?
16:37:22  <Ruudjah> we dont need to protect the artist's work, but we need to protect the _artists_
16:37:47  <planetmaker> As such I beg to disagree
16:37:58  <Ruudjah> Thats a very good question which I frankly do not have wel-thought answer to.
16:38:07  <planetmaker> An artist lives of this unique ideas / unique ways to do / show / present <whatever>
16:38:18  <Hirundo> And the ill-thought answer?
16:38:35  <planetmaker> if you give that idea no credit and protection, the incentive to be inventive is gone
16:38:39  <Ruudjah> We do know: moving money to move information is not gonna help society nor society's economy much
16:38:53  <Ruudjah> we do give the idea credit
16:39:00  <planetmaker> Ruudjah, but it has to pay
16:39:02  <Ruudjah> by requiring to link through the source
16:39:09  <Ruudjah> planetmaker: yes
16:39:27  <Ruudjah> but not neccesarliy through information, we believe in services or expertise
16:39:43  <Ruudjah> ie Dutch most famous poet gives away his pets freely on the internet
16:39:49  <planetmaker> why would you pay 11 people chasing a ball €€€€ while a person performing on the national opera only €
16:39:51  <Ruudjah> *poets
16:40:02  <Ruudjah> but he makes money being on TV
16:40:13  <Ruudjah> making new poets in the TV program
16:40:20  <planetmaker> not if you cut the copyright and reproduction fees on film material
16:40:27  <Alberth> poems, I hope :)
16:40:29  <Ruudjah> he doesnt sell his poets, but he sells his service
16:40:30  <planetmaker> :-P
16:40:34  <Ruudjah> poems :)
16:40:41  <planetmaker> Poets might be possible, but only late at night :-P
16:40:41  <Hirundo> The famous poets, artists, sportsmen etc can get away with that
16:40:47  <Rubidium> planetmaker: because in an opera it is not done to chant offensive remarks and unlikely to see people get harmed
16:40:51  <Hirundo> The other 90% can and will not
16:41:09  <Ruudjah> less famous poets can make money in different ways
16:41:20  <Ruudjah> there is a poet putting his poems on his blog
16:41:26  <Ruudjah> making money from ads
16:41:27  <planetmaker> How so, if even the meagre margin made by a book is void after 5 years?
16:41:45  <Alberth> without copyright, there is no need for ads
16:41:46  <planetmaker> Making money with ads doesn't work even if you have a few hundret clicks per day
16:41:52  <planetmaker> (own experience)
16:41:54  <Ruudjah> selling information=futile in internetsociety where everyone can copy it anyways
16:42:02  <Hirundo> ^^ google ads won't feed you
16:42:15  <Hirundo> If you can't sell it, why create it in the first place?
16:42:21  <glx> and usually people use adblocks
16:42:21  <Alberth> so the poet stops making money
16:42:31  <Ruudjah> then probably putting those poems in a deadtree and selling that paper wont feed you either
16:42:45  <Alberth> bye bye art
16:42:49  <planetmaker> Yes, a book won't feed you, too; but it might give you a few thousand Euros once. And maybe a 2nd and third time less, but still, if it is re-printed
16:43:03  <planetmaker> The latter would simply be gone, if everything was free to copy after 5 years
16:43:14  <planetmaker> That'd be bad... it feeds the non-best-sellers
16:44:06  <planetmaker> People like those already have a scarce income, you'd cut it completely giving it away for free after a very short time
16:44:13  <Ruudjah> how is that different from the current situation?
16:44:34  <planetmaker> No one can sell their books without giving a royalty to the author. For their whole life
16:44:36  <Ruudjah> we only say: hey! this is going on _right now_, so let's all adapt
16:44:54  <Ruudjah> I may legally copy a book here in NL
16:45:11  <Ruudjah> legally have my own copy without paying the author/artist
16:45:11  <planetmaker> But you may not publish it
16:45:19  <planetmaker> and bring it to the stores
16:45:24  <Ruudjah> doesnt matter for the income of the author
16:45:24  <planetmaker> That's what you advocate, though
16:45:29  <planetmaker> it does big time!
16:45:33  <Ruudjah> no
16:45:51  <Ruudjah> if everyone can get their copy for free anyways, it doesnt cange the situation
16:46:03  <planetmaker> Sorry? If anyone could go and sell printed copies of my books I wrote - how would that NOT harm me?
16:46:12  <planetmaker> I'd starve to death
16:46:17  <Hirundo> ^^what pm said
16:46:20  <glx> planetmaker: just don't write it in first place
16:46:26  <planetmaker> glx, exactly
16:46:36  <planetmaker> But I know a number of people who live on exactly this.
16:46:42  <Ruudjah> me too
16:46:43  <planetmaker> They'd not be amused... very rightfully
16:46:45  <Ruudjah> and they agree
16:47:03  <Ruudjah> situation is not any different as it is now, at least in NL
16:47:05  <planetmaker> Ruudjah, how would they finance themselves, if they cannot live of what they wrote?
16:47:22  <Ruudjah> in a different way then selling the information
16:47:37  <Ruudjah> software industry is busy devleoping business models around this for over 25years
16:47:43  <Ruudjah> music industry about 10 years
16:48:02  <Ruudjah> book industry like 1 year, since good e-readers are massively on the market
16:48:23  <Ruudjah> thats why we say: give bookindustry time an opportuinities to reform their money making ways
16:48:30  <glx> but copyrights are not the problem
16:48:31  <Hirundo> a 25 year 'structural adjustment' (=recession) ?!? :o
16:48:32  <Ruudjah> so that they can make money of their services
16:48:34  <planetmaker> every bet that the authors get their share from any publication of their material
16:48:53  <planetmaker> it may only be like 50ct per 25€ book. But still
16:48:55  <Ruudjah> since about 1985 software is OSS and business models are devloped around having OSS
16:49:09  <planetmaker> That's not working with books and arts
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16:49:20  <planetmaker> it's different things
16:49:23  <Ruudjah> thats a dangerous assumption
16:49:29  <planetmaker> yours is
16:49:32  <Ruudjah> which I think is untrue
16:49:36  <planetmaker> prove it.
16:49:53  <Ruudjah> I only need one artist to prove it
16:49:58  <glx> what service an actor can sell ?
16:50:02  <Ruudjah> which I already did: it is the dutch poet
16:50:03  <planetmaker> ^
16:50:16  <planetmaker> what service can the author of a poem sell?
16:50:29  <Ruudjah> being in a TV program making poems about the TV show
16:50:39  <planetmaker> that can do one, two poets
16:50:43  <Hirundo> How many poets can make their money that way? ^^
16:50:47  <glx> why would the TV pay for something free ?
16:50:54  <Ruudjah> its about finding new wasy to make money
16:50:54  <planetmaker> also ^
16:51:02  <Ruudjah> that dutch poet found his way
16:51:10  <Ruudjah> more ways lead to rome
16:51:15  <planetmaker> because they CANNOT take it for free
16:51:17  <Ruudjah> everyone has to find their ways
16:51:37  <Ruudjah> software industry has already quite some ways, music industry also some ways
16:51:53  <glx> totally different markets
16:51:55  <planetmaker> so you take the income from most creative people and tell them "find your (new) way to make money?"
16:51:55  <Ruudjah> and new ways are appearing from the book/poem industry
16:51:58  <planetmaker> Genius!
16:52:06  <Ruudjah> no
16:52:16  <Ruudjah> we only reckon that this is going on anyways
16:52:27  <planetmaker> what is "this"?
16:52:45  <Ruudjah> making a copy for personal use enables all citizens not needing to pay for a book, music or other arts in digital form
16:53:00  <Ruudjah> right now they are f'd.
16:53:02  <glx> for music industry the problem is the majors
16:53:03  <planetmaker> that'd kill art
16:53:14  <planetmaker> if it's free for all
16:53:18  <Ruudjah> Here in NL, art is far from dead
16:53:28  <Ruudjah> it _IS_ free for all here in NL!
16:53:34  <planetmaker> it's not ;-)
16:53:44  <Ruudjah> well
16:53:58  <planetmaker> You may not download all music for free.
16:54:05  <Ruudjah> read the auteurswet of 1912, and all juridical precedents since 1990
16:54:11  <planetmaker> You may not sell a new edition of Harry Potter
16:54:19  <Alberth> just because almost all people do illegal things doesn't mean you have to assume that is the right way
16:54:33  <Ruudjah> effectively, it is legal to download software, books, music here in NL
16:54:44  <planetmaker> and you may not sell a movie of the latest theatre play
16:54:45  <Ruudjah> I am not saying I may sell harry potter
16:55:03  <planetmaker> but that's what you want
16:55:03  <Ruudjah> I am saying that citizens here in NL do not need to pay for a book, or poems, or music
16:55:24  <Ruudjah> and that will destroy some industries
16:55:26  * Alberth thinks that is broken
16:55:40  <Ruudjah> so we need not destroying of those industries
16:56:02  <planetmaker> You'd kill one of your big money printers: Elsevier
16:56:03  <Ruudjah> but making sure they can earn money while in an internetage
16:56:21  <Ruudjah> Elsevier needs business model reform anyways
16:56:26  <Ruudjah> they are dying right now
16:56:32  <Ruudjah> slowly
16:56:36  <planetmaker> sure they do. That's why I don't publish in their journals.
16:56:50  <planetmaker> But they're surely not dying ;-)
16:57:19  <Ruudjah> I do think they are dying if they continue to monetize purely on information
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16:58:16  <Ruudjah> but in some markets elsevier is shrinking
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17:04:36  <KOT> hi all
17:04:55  <KOT> can anuy1 explain how to connect to servers??
17:07:26  *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Administr@] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:07:29  <Alberth> @ports
17:07:30  <DorpsGek> Alberth: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
17:08:31  <Alberth> those are the ports you need to enable
17:09:07  <__ln__> @ports KOT
17:09:07  <DorpsGek> __ln__: Invalid arguments for port.
17:09:07  <glx> theorically clients don't need to open anything
17:09:34  <KOT> u mean in the game or in the firewall ??
17:09:35  <Alberth> yeah, I thought so to after studying the text
17:09:54  <Alberth> too*
17:10:01  <__ln__> glx: except open ttd!
17:10:05  <KOT> ow ok let me try this brb
17:10:05  <glx> firewall and router, but only if you want to host a server
17:10:25  <KOT> no i just want to join a server :)
17:11:18  <KOT> ok got it now :)
17:12:35  <Alberth> many firewalls allow outgoing connections by default, so there you should not need to enable a port, if I understand it correctly
17:12:41  <Alberth> +routers
17:13:02  <KOT> dont worry i got router set :)
17:13:28  <glx> and when they don't, they usually just ask when the connection starts
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17:45:41  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r19941 /trunk/src/lang/ (luxembourgish.txt romanian.txt russian.txt):
17:45:41  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:41  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: luxembourgish - 31 changes by Phreeze
17:45:41  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: romanian - 2 changes by kkmic
17:45:41  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: russian - 3 changes by Lone_Wolf
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17:57:19  <Macha> I'm doing a co-operative game between a few friends: How do I prevent people changing the company password?
17:58:33  <Alberth> set it yourself?
17:59:01  <Alberth> but otherwise not afaik
17:59:44  <Macha> Co-op as in everyone will be using the same company. (Like openttdcoop). What openttdcoop seem to do is have a bot change the password every so often, but that's a lot of hassle to go to.
17:59:51  <Alberth> but it is a bit weird, you trust them for a co-operative game, but not with the passwd ?
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18:00:07  <frosch123> coop has a server password, no company password, does it?
18:01:45  <Alberth> openttdcoop does it to force people onto their irc channel I think
18:02:08  <Macha> Alberth: A few friends who often play openTTD from a forum, and a few RL friends. I can't put it past one of the RL ones to go: "Oh, I'm bored, let's change the password. Haha".
18:03:39  <Alberth> that seems more harmless than 'oh I am bored, lets remove all tracks from the game
18:04:19  <Alberth> ie if you cannot trust them with the pwd, why do you trust them with the game?
18:04:37  <Macha> Alberth: Fair point
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18:11:17  <andythenorth> evening
18:11:25  * andythenorth has finished work for today...ish
18:11:38  <andythenorth> could be time for some OTTD
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18:13:46  <frosch123> real work :p
18:15:54  * andythenorth ponders
18:16:13  <andythenorth> should I (a) make feature requests which mostly but not always go into some kind of dev/null or
18:16:23  <andythenorth> (b) stop FIRS crashing in arctic climate?
18:17:08  <frosch123> (c) stop ottd crashing on first in arctic
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18:17:48  <Rubidium> (d) start learning C, C++, Object C, Object C++, OpenTTD's structure and Apple's SDKs in an effort to revive the Mac OS X port, including maintaining the Object C++ front-end of GCC
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18:18:26  <frosch123> (e) offer apple to fix their os
18:18:34  * andythenorth votes b / c
18:18:36  <andythenorth> and it's done :P
18:18:54  <andythenorth> (d) looks more time consuming
18:20:30  <Alberth> a longer journey to enjoy :)
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18:28:58  * andythenorth thought this was a rather nice patch :P
18:28:59  <andythenorth>
18:30:21  <andythenorth> hmm
18:30:47  <andythenorth> is it just me.....or are most default industries quite free of snow in arctic?
18:30:57  <andythenorth> perhaps they have good janitors :P
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18:31:23  <frosch123> default industries cannot distinguish snow when drawing
18:31:40  <frosch123> so only the only-appears-above-snowline-forest has snow graphics
18:34:08  <andythenorth> interesting :o
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18:38:03  <andythenorth> meanwhile....if I check the newly-available var A7 during cb 28, do I need to think about backwards compatibility?
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18:46:36  <Hirundo> A variable that is not available makes the varaction2 code select the first group, independent of its range
18:56:12  <fjb> Moin
19:02:24  <andythenorth> Hirundo: thanks
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19:43:53  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r19942 /trunk/src/viewport.cpp: -Fix [FS#3871](r19816): Vertical dragging of rail was broken.
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19:56:44  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r19943 /trunk/src/ (news_gui.cpp widget.cpp window_gui.h): -Fix [FS#3865]: Disallow moving of vehicle news window.
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20:00:33  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r19944 /trunk/src/news_gui.cpp: -Feature(ette): Open vehicle view when clicking on the caption of vehicle news.
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20:37:08  <andythenorth> anyone want to weigh in on the great FIRS Aluminium Plant controversy? :P
20:38:14  <PeterT> "hmm
20:38:15  <PeterT> looks a little too shiny to me...
20:38:15  <PeterT> but then that's just my opinion, which doesn't matter :roll:
20:38:15  <PeterT> awesome graphics as usual anyway :bow:"
20:38:20  <PeterT> very descriptive...
20:38:48  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r19945 /trunk/src/roadveh_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r19755-ish): Allow turning of roadvehicles while waiting in a queue (again).
20:45:10  <Alberth> aluminium does not weigh that much :)
20:45:32  <ccfreak2k> andythenorth, aluminium plant?
20:45:36  <ccfreak2k> Perhaps I should...
20:45:39  <ccfreak2k> reflect on it.
20:45:41  <ccfreak2k> B|
20:45:45  <ccfreak2k> (yeeeeeaaaaaaaaahhhhhh)
20:45:57  <planetmaker> andythenorth: there's some point to "it looks quite generic now"
20:46:04  <andythenorth> ccfreak2k: well that's about as helpful as the other comments :)
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20:46:09  <andythenorth> planetmaker: yep
20:46:12  <planetmaker> on the other hand I find the original one quite bulky
20:46:15  <andythenorth> yep
20:46:25  <planetmaker> what a bout a two-tile wide hall with 3 tiles length or so.
20:46:29  <planetmaker> And adding some side buildings
20:46:46  <planetmaker> like the transformator. An office. Whatever
20:46:53  <andythenorth> I reckon they're missing the A-frame shed
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20:46:58  <planetmaker> ?
20:47:14  <andythenorth> planetmaker:
20:47:18  <andythenorth> the building on the right
20:47:52  <planetmaker> I see graphics, I see the words, but don't understand the latter
20:48:09  <Alberth> I also thought it was another industry
20:48:13  <planetmaker> the over-sized toilet building?
20:48:18  <andythenorth> II think the players posting forum feedback probably like the large piece-of-cheese building :)
20:48:47  <Alberth> looks almost like a green house
20:48:51  <andythenorth> I have drawn a smaller version of that which I might restore
20:49:02  <Ammler> why not, another nice feature of FIRS is (was) the bigger industries
20:49:24  <andythenorth> Ammler: one reason is that it makes them very unlikely to get placed on anything other than flat maps
20:49:35  <andythenorth> flat, smooth maps
20:49:43  <Ammler> can't you have different layouts?
20:50:11  <Ammler> I guess, pbi has something like that for the quarry
20:50:31  <andythenorth> when the building is made up of one 3x4 and one 4x4 building the layout variation is limited
20:50:34  <Ammler> firs has that too :-)
20:50:37  <andythenorth> better to use more smaller tiles
20:51:37  <andythenorth> in the original sprites....the building on the left can be recreated with the new tiles I've drawn, I just haven't done the layout yet :o
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20:59:28  <planetmaker> hm... what property defines whether an industry closes?
20:59:46  <planetmaker> or a callback which I miss?
21:01:43  <andythenorth> cb for monthly production change or random production change
21:02:19  <planetmaker> and an industry closes when...?
21:02:53  <andythenorth> when 04 80 is returned to the cb?
21:02:56  <planetmaker> (I try to get rid of eternal power plants, water towers and banks
21:02:56  <frosch123> prop 0B ?
21:03:30  <andythenorth> 0h = black hole, never closes?
21:03:40  <frosch123> "Setting this property to 0 means no production changes and no closing, like e.g. the power station."
21:04:25  <planetmaker> oh. So property 0B is sufficient for my case :-)
21:05:03  <frosch123> btw. this property shows a common disease of assembler programmers: using bitmasks even if only one value can be present at a time
21:05:34  <planetmaker> hm, yeah
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21:09:50  <frosch123> night
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21:11:17  <ccfreak2k> 0Black hole.
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21:16:12  <andythenorth> bah
21:16:18  <andythenorth> I need to set bit 7
21:16:55  <andythenorth> done
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21:35:54  * andythenorth is baffled
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21:37:20  <andythenorth> bah
21:37:27  <andythenorth> clustering industries on the map is not very easy
21:42:12  <Eddi|zuHause> you could put the first N coal mines randomly, and the next ones only if another mine is already nearby
21:42:17  <Eddi|zuHause> where N depends on map size
21:42:22  <andythenorth> yup
21:43:43  <andythenorth> that means using var 67 :)
21:43:47  <andythenorth> not tonight
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23:08:09  <Rubidium> hmm, what parameters should you give to sort so it doesn't ignore characters like '[' ?
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23:24:58  <Eddi|zuHause> LC_ALL=C?
23:32:10  <Rubidium> that seems to work
23:32:16  <Rubidium> so, thanks!
23:32:39  <Eddi|zuHause> it does say that in the man page ;)
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23:32:51  <Eddi|zuHause> at least that looked closest like the thing you asked for
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23:34:08  <Rubidium> ah, now I see it... they did a good job hiding that in plain sight! :)
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