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00:02:31 <Eddi|zuHause> ... they crashed trains again 00:02:45 <Eddi|zuHause> this is AdmiralAI v22, i believe 00:05:51 <ccfreak2k> Eddi|zuHause, corner case? 00:06:07 <elho> .oO( AI perfection is reached, when it makes human errors ) 00:06:28 <Eddi|zuHause> ccfreak2k: i have no idea how it happens 00:11:15 *** roboboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-41-16.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd 00:16:43 *** Devroush [~dennis@94-225-72-20.access.telenet.be] has quit [] 00:22:15 <Kovensky> elho: how do you know if the "human error" is of the AI itself or of the human that wrote the AI? :P 00:39:34 *** Chruker [~no@port113.ds1-vj.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [] 00:44:15 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1BF5B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:47:19 *** Polygon [~Poly@x0581b.wh7.tu-dresden.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:52:17 *** Fast2 [~Fast2@p57AF8311.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:58:39 *** KritiK [~Maxim@95-27-98-116.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:00:22 *** TB [~patric@145.118.72.132] has joined #openttd 01:00:24 *** TrueBrain [~patric@145.118.72.132] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:01:54 *** pugi [~pugi@p4FCC3694.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO US!] 01:08:39 *** Jhs [~Jhs4@212.80-202-26.nextgentel.com] has joined #openttd 01:20:41 <Eddi|zuHause> hmhm... game suddenly got unplayably slow 01:22:51 *** Fuco [~dota.keys@fuco.sks3.muni.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:27:00 <ccfreak2k> Now that 1.0.1 is around, I wonder if I should port my gamecube patch and release it. 01:27:02 *** roboboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-41-16.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:30:44 <ccfreak2k> I just need to figure out how to diff two directories. 01:31:40 *** Jhs [~Jhs4@212.80-202-26.nextgentel.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:37:46 <Eddi|zuHause> a) with diff, of course. and b) why do you need to do that anyway? just us a versioning system... 01:38:03 <Eddi|zuHause> +e 01:38:57 *** roboboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-41-16.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd 01:42:05 <ccfreak2k> Versoning for -one- patch? 01:49:21 <Eddi|zuHause> of course... 01:50:36 *** lugo [~lugo@mgdb-4db8c4bd.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:53:27 <ccfreak2k> Too late, the patch is uploaded. 01:57:48 *** DDR [~chatzilla@d99-199-13-89.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd 01:58:45 <ccfreak2k> Whoops, I screwed up. 01:58:50 <ccfreak2k> The patch didn't include new files. 02:17:41 *** ajmiles [~aj@78-86-188-187.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:35:33 *** SineDeviance [~jman@cpe-069-132-093-065.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 02:39:46 *** roboboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-41-16.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:55:58 *** KouDy [~KouDy@rb5ck203.net.upc.cz] has joined #openttd 03:02:55 *** roboboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-41-16.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd 03:24:00 *** KouDy [~KouDy@rb5ck203.net.upc.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 03:41:00 <theholyduck> question, 03:41:19 <theholyduck> can the game include some sort of gigant 2x45 degree corner = BAD sign when you build them? 03:41:39 <theholyduck> every time i play public it sadens me to see trains slow down because the builders don't realize its slow 03:42:29 <theholyduck> sure it should be easy to disable 03:42:38 <theholyduck> but just to tell those people who keep doing it to stop doing it 03:42:40 <theholyduck> it hurts my soul 03:43:53 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:4981:3dea:96ca:9280] has quit [Quit: bye] 03:53:09 *** SineDeviance [~jman@cpe-069-132-093-065.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:56:03 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B77C09.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 04:56:22 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B77F57.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 05:43:14 *** Keyboard_Warrior [~holyduck@ip-53-136-106-77.eidsiva.net] has joined #openttd 05:43:33 *** Keyboard_Warrior [~holyduck@ip-53-136-106-77.eidsiva.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:43:33 *** theholyduck [~holyduck@ip-53-136-106-77.eidsiva.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:08:10 *** Kurimus [Kurimus@dsl-tkubrasgw1-fe32dc00-253.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #openttd 06:23:32 <andythenorth> morning 06:35:57 *** einKarl [~einKarl@95-89-121-65-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #openttd 06:36:03 *** ^Spike^ [~spike@d200003.upc-d.chello.nl] has joined #openttd 06:45:07 *** devilsadvocate [~devilsadv@202.3.77.231] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 06:55:57 *** ctibor [~quassel@77.48.228.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 06:58:57 * andythenorth wonders which other FIRS industries should cluster. Farms now do. 07:11:07 *** Guest693 [~George@212.113.107.39] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:50:28 <Eddi|zuHause> mines 07:50:57 <Eddi|zuHause> i had a question for you yesterday, but i forgot... 07:51:53 <Eddi|zuHause> oh, and the other question you likely didn't read: if FMSP is supposed to be transported in tanker wagons, would you mind adding "liquid" cargo class to it? 07:54:00 <Eddi|zuHause> ah, yes, i remember: in industries like the steel mill, where the production ratio depends on number of incoming cargos, it would be useful to show the current production ratio (e.g. "6t per 8t delivered, current cargos: coal, scrap metal") 08:11:56 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: yes to the production ratio text 08:13:07 <andythenorth> not sure about liquid class 08:14:00 <andythenorth> hmm 08:14:24 <andythenorth> NARS 2 already permits FMSP in tank wagons 08:14:55 <andythenorth> probably allows express cargo 08:16:39 *** ctibor [~quassel@77.48.228.43] has joined #openttd 08:18:47 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: do you want FMSP in tank wagons, or are you just following what I said last time we discussed it? 08:32:16 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host226-233-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd 08:32:20 <Wolf01> hi 08:34:06 * andythenorth ponders farms and snow line 08:35:55 <Terkhen> good morning 08:39:20 <andythenorth> hi Terkhen 08:42:00 * andythenorth ponders a maximum distance between (for example) sheep farm and textile mill 08:57:20 *** fonsinchen [~fonsinche@brln-4dbc1697.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 09:02:44 *** welshdragon [~dragon@ip05.rdlbnc.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:02:44 *** snc [~snc@ip10.rdlbnc.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:03:46 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1D69D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 09:12:49 *** fonsinchen [~fonsinche@brln-4dbc1697.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:17:31 *** Polygon [~Poly@x0581b.wh7.tu-dresden.de] has joined #openttd 09:21:23 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590f793e.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 09:27:57 *** devilsadvocate [~devilsadv@202.3.77.202] has joined #openttd 09:39:37 *** Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 09:42:32 *** TB is now known as TrueBrain 09:43:14 <Alberth> moin 09:49:12 *** a1270 [~Cheese@72-24-233-98.cpe.cableone.net] has joined #openttd 09:50:37 <andythenorth> hi hi Alberth 10:10:40 <andythenorth> testing a non-existent var in action 2 doesn't seem to blow up the gam 10:10:41 <andythenorth> e 10:11:42 <frosch123> it just picks the first case to chain to 10:11:58 <andythenorth> it appears to be picking the default 10:12:03 <andythenorth> although I could be wrong 10:13:13 <andythenorth> Terkhen: FWIW, I've updated FIRS clustering behaviour 10:13:25 <andythenorth> now does all farms, and player can build anywhere (no clustering when funding) 10:14:27 *** aditsu [~aditsu@n1164983209.netvigator.com] has joined #openttd 10:14:48 <andythenorth> hmm 10:14:57 <andythenorth> I broke farms for the scenario editor :P 10:16:07 <andythenorth> grr 10:16:22 <andythenorth> need to check B3 as well :| 10:17:28 <andythenorth> another day 10:19:24 *** andythenorth [~andytheno@salieri.openttdcoop.org] has left #openttd [] 10:21:48 *** zodttd2 [~me@24.144.92.44] has joined #openttd 10:22:20 *** Vaxy-Admin [~admin@DSL01.83.171.153.91.ip-pool.NEFkom.net] has joined #openttd 10:22:22 <Vaxy-Admin> HI 10:22:43 <Alberth> hi 10:22:55 <aditsu> Vaxy-Admin: hi :) 10:23:09 *** zodttd [~me@24.144.92.44] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:23:17 <Vaxy-Admin> I do have a problem with a savegame on my server, maybe someone could help me :-) 10:23:58 <Vaxy-Admin> Somebody destroyed the land on my european heightmap with extreme terraforming 10:24:34 <Vaxy-Admin> On my latest autosaves the land is destroyed too and the last manual save is too old. 10:24:51 <Vaxy-Admin> Is there a chance to get the heightmap on the save game restored? 10:25:38 <aditsu> would it be possible to copy the heights from the old save? 10:25:43 <aditsu> (I am a player on Vaxy's server) 10:27:14 <Vaxy-Admin> Maybe there's something in the forums 10:27:26 <SpComb> theoretically, *everything* is possible, but.. 10:28:03 <aditsu> ok, is the file format documented somewhere? 10:28:11 <SpComb> in the source code, presumeably 10:28:33 <aditsu> argh.. 10:28:45 <Vaxy-Admin> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=46872&hilit=savegame+heightmap 10:29:02 <Vaxy-Admin> here is something about editing a savegame 10:29:44 <aditsu> Vaxy-Admin: it says something about uncompressed format 10:30:17 <Vaxy-Admin> yes, I would be able to get the uncompressed format. 10:30:22 <aditsu> btw, what kind of compression is that anyway? 10:30:37 *** DDR [~chatzilla@d99-199-13-89.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 10:31:01 <Alberth> the bigger problem is how to get the heights back imho 10:31:36 <aditsu> copy them from the old save.. 10:32:35 <Vaxy-Admin> I think that's not that easy because the recovered map has to fit onto the acutal cities, railways etc. 10:32:53 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@s55928dd9.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #openttd 10:33:28 <Alberth> that's the problem I think, ie how to reset the land height without breaking the game data 10:33:36 <Vaxy-Admin> so when someone built a track on a flat land and I will recover the heightmap where there will be a mountain on that location for example.. 10:33:36 <aditsu> Vaxy-Admin: ok, you handle the file format, I handle the heights :) 10:34:07 <Alberth> just call the right piece of C code to load a map, that's easy 10:34:49 <SpComb> http://vcs.openttd.org/svn/browser/trunk/docs 10:34:49 <Alberth> you could even write a AI to do the height resetting 10:35:02 <aditsu> the first step is to restore the heights as if doing it by hand (so some places that have something built won't change) 10:35:20 <aditsu> that will fix maybe 80-90% 10:35:52 <Vaxy-Admin> the other 10% are "collateral damage"? ;-) 10:36:32 <Alberth> first step is to have the original heights in a usable format, I think 10:36:42 <aditsu> for the rest, there are some options.. straight rails can be updated 10:37:15 <Vaxy-Admin> ok, so I will try to get the uncompressed format 10:37:32 <Alberth> no need, just load the game using the code of the program 10:37:33 *** KenjiE20 [~KenjiE20@92.9.250.146] has joined #openttd 10:38:50 <Alberth> ie reverse engineering the file format, and writing a decoder and an encoder is a LOT more work, I think 10:39:31 *** Grelouk [~Grelouk@93.25.99.137] has joined #openttd 10:39:36 <aditsu> well, hacking the main C code is not that nice either 10:39:50 <aditsu> especially seeing it for the first time 10:40:02 <Vaxy-Admin> umm... I'm pretty new to the OpenTTD Code, too 10:40:23 * Alberth ponders about an AI that resets the height of each tile 10:40:24 <aditsu> let me check out from svn.. 10:40:48 <frosch123> http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/savegametools.tgz <- aditsu: use those tools to (de-)compress savegames, and to access their hunks 10:40:52 <Vaxy-Admin> Such an AI would be great :D 10:41:17 <Vaxy-Admin> Danke, frosch 10:41:25 <Alberth> it would be quite useful to have such an AI, I think 10:41:38 <frosch123> the heights are in the MAPT chunk, but only in 4 bits of the bytes 10:41:46 <frosch123> the other four bits should not be changed 10:41:51 <aditsu> oh, there are tools 10:42:19 <Vaxy-Admin> but what happens when theres a mismatch with the tracks and the heights after the recover? 10:42:38 <frosch123> it will assert somewhen 10:42:42 <Vaxy-Admin> ie when a streeet doesn't fit to the new land anymore 10:43:26 <frosch123> the other four bits in MAPT tell you the type of a tile, so you could limit the modifications to clear land, trees and water 10:43:27 *** [com]buster [~eternal@cust-03-55bf402e.adsl.scarlet.nl] has joined #openttd 10:43:49 <frosch123> but then you have to make sure that the heightdifference of neighboured corners does not exceed 1 :) 10:44:45 <Vaxy-Admin> ah ok, thanks.. What would happen, If I copy/paste the heights of the original map to the savegame? 10:44:52 <aditsu> yes I plan to take care of all that stuff 10:45:05 <aditsu> um.. what are AIs written in? also C? 10:45:17 <Alberth> Vaxy-Admin: hope that there is no train underground suddenly :) 10:45:22 <Alberth> aditsu: nope, in squirrel 10:45:34 <aditsu> a new language? 10:45:35 <frosch123> if you copy the complete MAPT chunk it will crash on load, if you copy only the 4 height bits per tile, it will assert shortly after load 10:45:51 <frosch123> :p 10:46:04 <Vaxy-Admin> assert means...? 10:46:31 <aditsu> check for validity and throw an exception... or whatever that is in C 10:46:40 <Alberth> http://wiki.openttd.org/AI:Main_Page 10:46:56 <frosch123> assert is a special type of crash :) 10:47:23 *** pugi [~pugi@p4FCC3694.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 10:47:25 <Vaxy-Admin> ah ... an exception? 10:47:45 <Alberth> yes, when an condition is violated 10:47:52 <Vaxy-Admin> alright... thanks 10:48:25 <aditsu> ooh the format is actually documented, quite nicely 10:49:12 *** lugo [~lugo@mgdb-4db8c4bd.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 10:51:42 <aditsu> hm... AI or no AI? 10:51:48 <aditsu> that is the question 10:52:06 <Vaxy-Admin> It is complicated to program an AI? 10:52:12 <Vaxy-Admin> *Is it 10:52:18 <ccfreak2k> aditsu, IIRC Squirrel is a scripting language with C-like syntax. 10:52:27 <aditsu> I'm checking it out now 10:52:55 <frosch123> http://wiki.openttd.org/Noai http://noai.openttd.org/ <- everything you need 10:53:50 *** ajmiles [~aj@78-86-188-187.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 10:54:34 <frosch123> hmm, maybe you could generate an ai from the heightmap which does the terraforming 10:54:37 *** heffer [~felix@static-87-78-98-150.netcologne.de] has joined #openttd 10:54:57 <frosch123> then you do not need to mess with the save, just load the game in singleplayer, start the ai, cheat money to it, and be done 10:55:37 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r19965 /trunk/src/video/sdl_v.cpp: -Cleanup: Use size of buffer, not magic number. 10:56:01 <aditsu> how do you raise/lower a vertex? can't find the right class 10:56:09 <frosch123> AITile maybe 10:56:37 <aditsu> ah 10:56:38 <Vaxy-Admin> that sounds great.. using the terraform-tools of the game would consider the existing infrastructe of the game 10:57:23 <frosch123> Vaxy-Admin: you could even start that ai regulary on a server, and it continualy terraforms back what player change :p 10:58:33 <Vaxy-Admin> I will patch the server to reduce extreme terraforming, ie every player is able to change one or two fields at once 10:58:37 <aditsu> what is a TileIndex? 10:58:46 <Alberth> frosch123: I was thinking that too :) 10:58:56 <frosch123> aditsu: http://wiki.openttd.org/AI:Need_To_Know 10:59:31 <aditsu> thanks 10:59:41 <frosch123> oh, sorry, alberth. missed that :) 11:00:37 <Alberth> would be quite effective against terra-formers 11:02:06 <frosch123> well, you cannot get back the water everywhere 11:03:33 <Vaxy-Admin> Just applying the AI-Patch does let just one problem unresolved: When a player extremely terraforms the map and then builds streets or something on the flat ground 11:04:05 <Vaxy-Admin> well the company could be just deleted and then let the AI do the rest .. 11:04:19 <frosch123> road stay iirc 11:05:10 <Vaxy-Admin> I read that there is already a terraform-limitation patch out there on the forums 11:07:36 <Vaxy-Admin> Maybe that would be something for the offical version? So that you are able to set in the openttd.cfg how many terraforming is allowed per month 11:11:34 *** ecke [~ecke@188.75.128.2] has joined #openttd 11:12:05 *** Devroush [~dennis@94-225-72-20.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 11:13:39 <aditsu> ok I got TestAI running 11:13:55 <aditsu> now to make it do something.. 11:16:24 <aditsu> Vaxy-Admin: if this AI thing works, then I think it will be a much better solution than messing with the save files 11:17:00 <Vaxy-Admin> Yes, you are right. If it would be ok for you, I would let the AI run on the server regularly 11:17:30 <aditsu> first we have to figure out how it's gonna work :p 11:17:36 <Vaxy-Admin> yap 11:19:28 <aditsu> ooh I made it raise some land 11:19:38 *** Chrill [~chrischri@h-5-149.A212.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd 11:19:56 <aditsu> gotta figure out that slope parameter.. 11:20:24 <Alberth> town authorities will not be very happy with that AI 11:21:24 <aditsu> will they stop it from modifying land at some point? 11:21:45 <Vaxy-Admin> I don't think so 11:22:21 <aditsu> hm.. raising/lowering land is quite weird, it doesn't operate on corners as in the game, but on tiles 11:22:23 <Vaxy-Admin> I never got any message from the town authorities while terraforming 11:22:28 <frosch123> Alberth: the ai could also replant the old trees :p 11:22:46 <Alberth> :) 11:23:01 <aditsu> although.. it looks like I can define which corners of the tile to change 11:23:17 <frosch123> aditsu: just pass a fixed corner (e.g. north corner) and it operates on corners 11:23:20 <Alberth> Vaxy-Admin: do some heavy terra forming around a city :) 11:24:44 <frosch123> well, assuming the ai only is active when another player terraformed before, towns would be happy about the ais 11:24:45 <aditsu> can I use file I/O? 11:24:55 <frosch123> terraforming does not hurt, only tree cutting 11:24:59 <Vaxy-Admin> I did that on some cities on my scenario (Needed flat land for my big stations). I just got a very bad reputation (building a station wasn't possible then) but I was able to terraform further 11:25:04 <frosch123> but they were already cut when the ais gets active 11:25:35 <frosch123> aditsu: no, you can only load ai libraries and such 11:25:51 <frosch123> and you can store some stuff in the savegame 11:26:16 <aditsu> well, how can I store the good height map? 11:26:27 <aditsu> (before starting the AI) 11:27:17 <Vaxy-Admin> do you need the original savegame or scenario? 11:27:20 <frosch123> either you could start the ai on gamestart, and it then saves the whole map. but in this case you would need to generate an ai which from the heightmap 11:27:56 <aditsu> the AI has to run on the bad map 11:28:32 <frosch123> you can also write a second ai, which you run on the good map, which then prints the height information to console (via ai debug stuff) 11:28:46 <frosch123> you can then put that output into the source of the ai running on the bad map 11:29:39 <aditsu> Vaxy-Admin: I think the last good save would be useful 11:30:05 <aditsu> frosch123: no other I/O option? that's a bit nasty.. 11:30:16 <Vaxy-Admin> The original scenario would recover the most possible 11:30:29 <aditsu> well, ok 11:30:46 <frosch123> no, ais can only print to console and write to the savegame 11:30:47 <Vaxy-Admin> even not needed terraforms from the "good" players ;) 11:31:29 <aditsu> I did quite a bit of terraforming too, but not in a damaging way 11:31:31 <Vaxy-Admin> read / print console and write savegame.... No more I/O functions? 11:31:54 <aditsu> apparently not 11:32:18 <frosch123> no, you cannot access ~/.bashrc and store rm -rf ~ there 11:32:42 <aditsu> awww 11:33:26 <aditsu> frosch123: at least there could be one predefined file that the AI can read/write 11:33:41 <frosch123> yes, the current savegame :) 11:33:45 <Vaxy-Admin> so we need one OpenTTD Instance that runs the original savegame and writes (X-Y Position, Map-Info) to the console; 11:34:00 <aditsu> um.. separate from the savegame 11:34:23 <aditsu> Vaxy-Admin: yes, I'm working on it 11:35:34 <Vaxy-Admin> so on the 2024*2024 map there will be 4 096 576 console lines needed to recover the game once? 11:36:13 <Vaxy-Admin> assuming that the information of every square will be posted on one line 11:37:07 <frosch123> :p 11:37:18 *** argentum [bsftgb@cpc2-hawk1-0-0-cust412.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 11:37:48 <frosch123> maybe patch ottd then 11:37:55 <frosch123> but that makes it less generic 11:38:52 *** devilsadvocate [~devilsadv@202.3.77.202] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:39:38 <argentum> servers 11:39:47 <argentum> ah 11:40:43 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has joined #openttd 11:43:18 <aditsu> frosch123: how can I copy the log output? 11:44:29 <frosch123> start openttd with -d ai=9 or so 11:44:56 <aditsu> I did debug_level ai=5 and I can see the log messages but can't copy 11:44:59 <frosch123> ai output is then also pritned to normal console 11:45:06 <aditsu> ah 11:45:08 <aditsu> let me try 11:46:53 <aditsu> frosch123: with debug_level it doesn't print to the console, I'll try with -d 11:47:53 <aditsu> still nothing 11:48:11 <aditsu> frosch123: do I need a special type of log messages? 11:48:22 <Vaxy-Admin> did you try 11:48:23 <Vaxy-Admin> AILog.Info(some_integer + ""); 11:48:27 <Vaxy-Admin> with Log-Level 4? 11:49:00 <aditsu> I tried AILog.Info(some_integer), with log level 5 and 9 11:49:17 <frosch123> it works for me 11:49:41 <frosch123> maybe it needs a debug build, but actually that would surprise me 11:50:37 <aditsu> I can try that too 11:50:57 <Vaxy-Admin> Did you try AILog.Error? Just for testing purpose 11:51:09 <aditsu> not yet 11:51:59 <aditsu> tried now, it changed the color, but still nothing in the console 11:52:13 <aditsu> recompiling it with the debug option.. 11:53:38 <frosch123> bye, bbl 11:53:44 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590f793e.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:53:59 <aditsu> ok, I see a new button 11:54:04 <aditsu> but still nothing in the console.. 11:55:08 <Vaxy-Admin> I'm just installing squirrel.. 11:55:30 <aditsu> Vaxy-Admin: isn't it included with openttd? 11:55:52 *** devilsadvocate [~devilsadv@202.3.77.231] has joined #openttd 11:55:54 <Vaxy-Admin> erm..... well.... xD 11:56:31 <Vaxy-Admin> I'm totally new to that. I downloaded squirrel and compiled it now. 11:58:02 *** Polygon [~Poly@x0581b.wh7.tu-dresden.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:59:03 <Vaxy-Admin> Do I need to compile the AI with OpenTTD? 11:59:26 <Vaxy-Admin> together with the OpenTTD Source? 12:01:19 <aditsu> Vaxy-Admin: you just need to write the AI code and run it 12:01:49 <aditsu> no compilation involved 12:02:02 <aditsu> it's just script 12:02:22 <Vaxy-Admin> ok 12:06:22 <aditsu> still can't get any output to console :( 12:06:51 <Vaxy-Admin> ah ok my test-AI is working 12:07:05 <Vaxy-Admin> Do you look in the cmd or ingame console? 12:07:14 <aditsu> ooh I just found something 12:07:21 <aditsu> ingame console 12:07:39 <aditsu> do you think....? 12:08:35 <aditsu> ooh 12:09:27 <aditsu> Vaxy-Admin: thanks, I can see output in the "console" console :) 12:09:51 <Vaxy-Admin> you mean the console in OpenTTD? 12:10:26 <aditsu> the stdout of the process 12:10:31 *** Fuco [~dota.keys@fuco.sks3.muni.cz] has joined #openttd 12:10:37 <aditsu> but now I got it in the ingame console too! 12:10:57 <aditsu> erm.. still can't copy it from there 12:10:57 <Vaxy-Admin> we just need the commands on the stdout 12:11:05 <aditsu> yeah stdout works 12:11:29 <Vaxy-Admin> The second OpenTTD Instance is only able to read the real console afaik 12:11:43 <Vaxy-Admin> not the ingame console of the first OpenTTD instance 12:11:44 <aditsu> I don't know if it can even do that 12:11:50 <aditsu> but we can hardcode the map into the AI code 12:12:02 <Vaxy-Admin> frosch said that this should be possible 12:12:17 <aditsu> didn't notice that 12:13:07 <Vaxy-Admin> well, that was his advise to write two AIs communicating via console each together 12:13:47 <Alberth> I'd save the heights in a 2D array, and add that as literal value in the source code of the 2nd AI 12:14:25 <Alberth> although 2^24 values is not nice.... 12:15:16 <Alberth> hmm, you could split the data in pieces, and load a part in an AI 12:15:32 <aditsu> Vaxy-Admin: can you quote him? 12:15:32 <Vaxy-Admin> hmm 12:15:54 <aditsu> Alberth: oh, multiple AIs? 12:16:27 <Alberth> that would be an option, but then you still have 2^24 heights in memory, so it won't save you anything 12:16:30 <Vaxy-Admin> Doesn't that makes tons of load on the cpu? 12:16:50 <Alberth> one AI would be simpler in that case 12:16:53 <aditsu> according to the docs, pauses are added automatically 12:17:36 <aditsu> I think it's 2^22 values 12:17:56 <Alberth> ok :) 12:18:06 <Vaxy-Admin> with the hardcoded heights it wouldn't be very flexible 12:18:17 <aditsu> 4 million 12:18:26 <aditsu> not really that bad 12:21:04 <Vaxy-Admin> 4 Million Datasets... How many bytes does just one dataset have? like 8? 12:22:16 <aditsu> 4 bits 12:22:40 <Vaxy-Admin> really? Just 4 Bits? 12:22:49 <aditsu> yeah, just the height 12:22:57 <Alberth> 16 different heights 12:23:12 <aditsu> not sure how to store it efficiently in the code though 12:23:18 <Vaxy-Admin> so that array-size would be around 2 MB? 12:23:34 <aditsu> yeah, ideally 12:23:43 <Alberth> look for an unsigned data type 12:24:25 <aditsu> hm, it's stderr not stdout 12:24:28 <Vaxy-Admin> byte square[y][x] that saves 2 neighbour squares? 12:24:50 <Alberth> something like that yeah 12:25:23 <Alberth> for experimenting you may want to do something smaller first 12:27:26 <aditsu> I'm getting some -1 height values 12:27:59 <Vaxy-Admin> on what coordinates? 12:28:48 <aditsu> not sure, let me print them too 12:31:06 <aditsu> whenever one of the coordinates is 255 or 256 12:31:13 <aditsu> (map size 256*256) 12:31:38 <aditsu> should I only go up to n-2? 12:32:09 <aditsu> (starting from 1) 12:32:32 <aditsu> oh, actually, does 0 work? I wonder 12:32:34 <Vaxy-Admin> go up just n-1 nor? 12:33:23 <aditsu> I guess there are 255 tiles (256 vertices) 12:33:59 <aditsu> nope, no 0 12:34:10 <aditsu> so why does it only let me go from 1 to 254? 12:34:53 <Vaxy-Admin> maybe the edges aren't accessable 12:35:13 <aditsu> strange 12:36:43 <Vaxy-Admin> I do have another problem. By starting "openttd -g test.sav -d" (In test.sav the AIs are alread there) I don't get any actions from my AIs? 12:37:16 <Vaxy-Admin> Did I missed something? 12:37:37 <Vaxy-Admin> how do you start your AIs, aditsu? By new gams or do you load a savegame? 12:37:40 *** Fast2 [~Fast2@p57AF9FE5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 12:38:55 <aditsu> Vaxy-Admin: I'm testing with new games, and start_ai in the console 12:39:22 <aditsu> I think my "save map" AI is ready 12:40:07 <Vaxy-Admin> cool :) 12:40:57 <aditsu> then I should write the "fix map" AI generator 12:41:08 <aditsu> well, the height map part 12:41:37 <Vaxy-Admin> would you show me some lines of your generated map? 12:45:21 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Administr@89.246.175.14] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:46:49 <aditsu> right now I only have the debug output 12:46:56 <aditsu> not the final form 12:47:15 <aditsu> some lines: http://dpaste.com/206394/ 12:47:27 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:8c17:76a8:c3c8:ca20] has joined #openttd 12:47:30 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 12:50:05 *** Zuu [Zuu@c-74f4e655.510-8-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #openttd 12:51:52 <Vaxy-Admin> do you read the tileinformation with TileIndex? 12:54:48 <Vaxy-Admin> ok I got it 12:55:49 <glx> TileIndex is just an index :) 12:56:10 *** Eoin [eoin@cpc1-dund8-0-0-cust3.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 12:56:43 <Vaxy-Admin> Yes.. Now I want to read the height of every tile. Looks like that AITile::GetCornerHeight is the right function therefor 12:57:47 <aditsu> Vaxy-Admin: I already did that, want my code? 12:57:56 <Vaxy-Admin> yes :) 12:58:21 <glx> there's also GetMinHeight and GetMaxHeight 12:58:47 <aditsu> http://dpaste.com/206397/ 12:59:29 *** Zuu [Zuu@c-74f4e655.510-8-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:00:14 <Vaxy-Admin> yeah ok, I nearly had the same already :) 13:00:15 <Vaxy-Admin> for (local y = 1; y < mapY; y++) 13:00:15 <Vaxy-Admin> { 13:00:15 <Vaxy-Admin> for (local x = 1; x < mapX; x++) 13:00:15 <Vaxy-Admin> { 13:00:15 <Vaxy-Admin> local actTile = AIMap.GetTileIndex(x,y); 13:00:17 <Vaxy-Admin> AILog.Info("Tile: " + actTile); 13:00:17 <Vaxy-Admin> } 13:00:19 <Vaxy-Admin> } 13:01:07 *** TheMask96 [martijn@sirius.ne2000.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:05:36 <glx> that's crazy ;) 13:05:51 <aditsu> ok I wrote the code generator 13:06:04 <aditsu> now for the logic to fix the map... 13:06:06 <Vaxy-Admin> something like this? AILog.Info("tile["+y+"][+"x"+] = ..... 13:06:29 <Vaxy-Admin> and then get the arrayvalues for all tiles in the console output 13:06:59 <glx> but why ? 13:07:05 <aditsu> Vaxy-Admin: no, squirrel has array literals 13:07:25 <aditsu> glx: somebody messed up Vaxy's map with extensive terraforming 13:07:44 <aditsu> and he has an old save 13:08:08 *** TheMask96 [martijn@sloth.vhost.ne2000.nl] has joined #openttd 13:08:27 <aditsu> we're trying to fix it (at least partly) without losing all that was built in the meantime 13:08:37 <Vaxy-Admin> and aditsu just doesn't want to loose his trillions of dollars ;-) 13:09:03 <aditsu> it's not about the money, but the time I spent building routes 13:09:08 <Vaxy-Admin> I know ;-) 13:12:33 *** argentum [bsftgb@cpc2-hawk1-0-0-cust412.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has left #openttd [] 13:13:16 *** Chrill [~chrischri@h-5-149.A212.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [] 13:14:08 *** Coco-Banana-Man [~Stephan.D@p5B2D9BEE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 13:15:23 <Alberth> glx: building an AI that does 'reverse' terra forming :) 13:20:35 <aditsu> ok let me try it.. 13:22:10 <aditsu> The AI 'FixAI' returned a string from GetShortName() which is not four characaters. Unable to load the AI. 13:22:25 <aditsu> o_O 13:22:44 <aditsu> ooh 13:22:52 <aditsu> the info part? 13:24:11 *** VVG [~sdfkhksd@85.249.0.43] has joined #openttd 13:24:29 <VVG> hello 13:25:27 <aditsu> hmm it doesn't do anything 13:25:46 *** fonsinchen [~fonsinche@brln-4dbc1697.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 13:26:15 <VVG> i fiddled with grf codec and seems i made a newgrf that crashes ottd. should i report it, or just provide necessary steps here for any interested party or just forget it? 13:34:54 <Alberth> best option is to repair the newgrf, I think 13:36:00 <peter1138> ottd shouldn't crash :D 13:37:38 <aditsu> oh damn 13:37:48 <aditsu> I was calling Raise and Lower with 0 slope 13:37:59 *** KritiK [~Maxim@95-25-226-234.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd 13:38:36 <Vaxy-Admin> so there is water on the whole map? :D 13:39:15 <aditsu> no, it means it makes no change 13:39:25 <Vaxy-Admin> ... 13:39:38 <aditsu> woooow 13:39:48 <Vaxy-Admin> does it work? :) 13:40:04 <aditsu> yes it works now, but it ran out of money quite quickly 13:40:14 <Vaxy-Admin> money should be no problem ;-) 13:40:21 <aditsu> how? 13:40:45 <Vaxy-Admin> on my server, I would give him enough money 13:41:00 <aditsu> how do you do that? 13:41:03 <VVG> original grf isn't broken, it's mine modification that makes ottd crash, when buying trains 13:41:59 <Vaxy-Admin> transfer money from my company to the AI 13:42:45 <aditsu> how do you transfer? 13:43:57 <Vaxy-Admin> hm 13:44:17 <Vaxy-Admin> damn, I just could give my money to other player, not comapnies 13:44:37 <Vaxy-Admin> lets see if there is another command to transfer money 13:45:02 <aditsu> somebody mentioned cheating 13:45:36 <Vaxy-Admin> would be ok, too. By editing the savegamefile? 13:45:59 <aditsu> he didn't say how 13:46:40 <aditsu> Vaxy-Admin: oh there's an option to allow sending money to companies 13:47:06 <Vaxy-Admin> to companies or to player? 13:47:31 <Vaxy-Admin> I thought, you can ony transfer money to other PLAYERS. An AI is not handled as a player 13:47:43 <aditsu> http://wiki.openttd.org/Advanced_Settings/Competitors 13:47:49 <aditsu> it says companies 13:47:54 <aditsu> but doesn't say how to send 13:48:00 <Vaxy-Admin> the easiest way would be 13:48:11 <Alberth> I think: start as single player, cheat to become the AI, cheat to give money 13:48:12 <Vaxy-Admin> to load the game into single-player 13:48:21 <Vaxy-Admin> right, Alberth :D 13:48:32 <aditsu> Alberth: how do you cheat? 13:48:48 <Vaxy-Admin> http://wiki.openttd.org/Cheats 13:49:22 <Alberth> CTL+ATL+C 13:49:27 <Alberth> *ALT 13:49:44 <aditsu> ooh 13:49:59 <Alberth> cheat to become yourself again, finally :) 13:50:08 <Vaxy-Admin> btw. whats the money limit? 13:50:27 <aditsu> then the AI has to wait for a while before doing the work 13:50:42 <aditsu> so it gives you time to cheat and add money 13:50:45 <Vaxy-Admin> yes, do the work every year or so 13:51:02 <Vaxy-Admin> it would be great to run the AI regularly on the server 13:51:06 <aditsu> um.. it currently does its thing only once, on start 13:51:12 <Alberth> @calc 2^64 13:51:12 <DorpsGek> Alberth: Error: Something in there wasn't a valid number. 13:51:18 <aditsu> but we can change it 13:51:20 <Alberth> @calc 2**64 13:51:20 <DorpsGek> Alberth: 18446744073709551616 13:51:34 <Alberth> something in that direction :) 13:51:35 <Vaxy-Admin> ok, that should be enough xD 13:51:35 <aditsu> oh ok, I was getting closer :p 13:52:26 <Vaxy-Admin> shall I send you the old savegame in order to create the "heightmap"? 13:52:30 <Alberth> perhaps use 2**63 instead :) 13:53:03 <aditsu> yeah 13:53:19 <aditsu> what's the correspondence between ticks and actual time? 13:54:26 <aditsu> how many ticks for 1 min? 13:54:57 <Vaxy-Admin> Is one Tick equal to one day in OTTD? 13:55:07 <Alberth> 74 ticks/day 13:55:56 <Alberth> 74 ticks is about 1 ingame day. (Roughly 2 seconds) 13:56:48 <Alberth> I would have expected that question to be a FAQ :) 13:57:03 <aditsu> so 74*30 for I min? 14:00:14 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590f793e.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 14:00:16 <Alberth> that would make 12 minutes for 1 year, but afaik it is near 18 minutes 14:02:03 <aditsu> hmm.. seems to take too long 14:03:43 <aditsu> something's wrong 14:03:59 <Vaxy-Admin> the map is pretty large 14:04:49 <aditsu> no, I'm still testing on 256 14:04:53 <Vaxy-Admin> ah ok 14:04:54 <aditsu> and it was just sleeping 14:05:26 <aditsu> or is the AI frozen while I play as its company? 14:06:56 <Vaxy-Admin> I think so. The AI is then be replaced by the player 14:07:29 <aditsu> but I switched while it was fixing the map, and it didn't stop 14:08:09 <Vaxy-Admin> maybe it just wanted to finish the current operation and then call an exit-handler 14:09:16 <Vaxy-Admin> didn't you said that the AI only start fixing at the start? 14:10:36 <aditsu> I added a delay 14:10:42 <aditsu> so I can have time to add money 14:10:52 <aditsu> anyway, it's ok now 14:10:59 <aditsu> I reduced the delay 14:12:36 <aditsu> actually.. I could make it wait for money 14:13:31 <Vaxy-Admin> with the cheat the AI becomes enough money to do his job for a very long time ;) 14:15:01 <Vaxy-Admin> how long does your computer need to recover a 256x256 map? 14:15:12 <Alberth> s/becomes/will have/ 14:15:15 <aditsu> it actually depends how different it is 14:15:26 <aditsu> it takes a very long time with a random map 14:15:58 <aditsu> although I guess I could fast-forward 14:16:36 <aditsu> umm.. how do I get my CompanyID? 14:16:53 <Vaxy-Admin> Ingame-Console > Type "companies" 14:17:05 <aditsu> I mean in the code 14:18:27 <aditsu> oh wait, there's a special id for self 14:24:25 <aditsu> ok it's working now 14:24:29 <aditsu> I should test it with 2048 14:28:20 *** Vaxy-Admin is now known as Afk|Vaxy 14:29:05 *** tokai [~tokai@port-92-195-48-206.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Quit: c('~' )o] 14:29:26 *** tokai [~tokai@port-92-195-48-206.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 14:29:29 *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai] by ChanServ 14:30:20 <aditsu> I'm saving the "good" map now 14:30:42 <aditsu> Afk|Vaxy: actually did you want me to use the original map, with no companies? 14:32:30 <Afk|Vaxy> hm 14:32:38 <Afk|Vaxy> Do you have that map? 14:33:16 <aditsu> no 14:33:23 <Afk|Vaxy> Wait a moment, I will put the original map to my server 14:33:30 <aditsu> ok 14:33:38 <aditsu> how did you create it btw? 14:33:54 <Afk|Vaxy> the map isn't mine... I found it somewhere ;-) 14:34:30 <aditsu> oh ok 14:34:50 <aditsu> hm.. saving the map is taking way too long 14:35:13 <aditsu> I think I should output one whole line per log message 14:35:52 <aditsu> Afk|Vaxy: ok got it 14:38:15 *** heffer [~felix@static-87-78-98-150.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:39:01 <aditsu> oh, log messages get truncated at 1024 14:40:08 *** heffer [~felix@static-87-78-98-150.netcologne.de] has joined #openttd 14:44:50 *** roboboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-41-16.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:48:23 <aditsu> I think squirrel is too slow 14:48:52 <Afk|Vaxy> do you create the map? 14:50:03 <frosch123> ottd limits the number of commands for ais 14:50:12 <aditsu> I'm waiting for it.. 14:50:15 <frosch123> so terraforming a whole map is likely slow 14:50:29 <aditsu> already outputting 1000 characters/message 14:51:48 <aditsu> well it's using 100% of one cpu core 14:52:03 <aditsu> (in fast-forward mode) 14:52:55 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r19966 /trunk/src/fios_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Use InvalidateData() in saveload GUI when appropiate. 14:52:55 <Alberth> that's what fast-forward does :) 14:53:14 <aditsu> yeah, but it's still slow 14:53:59 <aditsu> I'll just let it run 14:54:10 <aditsu> I hope it will finish in an hour or so 14:54:14 <Afk|Vaxy> O.o 14:55:18 <aditsu> I suppose I could run multiple instances in parallel (using multiple computers too) to save different parts of the map 14:55:22 <aditsu> but it's too much work 14:55:50 <Afk|Vaxy> You need to create the map just one time ;) 14:56:00 <aditsu> yeah 14:56:34 <aditsu> I wish I had a 20GHz cpu :p 14:56:46 <Afk|Vaxy> :D 15:20:23 *** Kurimus [Kurimus@dsl-tkubrasgw1-fe32dc00-253.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [] 15:25:08 <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: do you want FMSP in tank wagons, or are you just following what I said last time we discussed it? <-- i'd like to have it, but MB basically said he won't add it, unless it has liquid cargo class 15:29:00 *** pugi [~pugi@p4FCC3694.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:29:03 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i suspect the sudden slowness of my game is an AI going haywire... is there a way to check which AI is currently calculating how much? 15:29:09 *** pugi [~pugi@p4FCC5821.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 15:32:14 *** theholyduck [~holyduck@77.106.155.17] has joined #openttd 15:34:56 <Ammler> aren't AI throttled somehow 15:35:33 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but at a generic value that needn't have anything to do with how much your computer can calculate within one tick 15:36:16 <Eddi|zuHause> game sped up significantly after deleting nocab, but i don't know if that was because of the AI, or because so many vehicles disappeared 15:38:03 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Administr@89.246.175.14] has joined #openttd 15:40:05 <frosch123> then code an ai cpu usage meter 15:40:26 <frosch123> it already counts number of instructions 15:41:04 <Eddi|zuHause> as that involves touching GUI code, it's unlikely to ever happen :p 15:41:13 <theholyduck> why not just temporarily print the numbers of instructions used for whatever to a file? then just read it with your favorite text editor then? 15:41:21 <theholyduck> should avoid the gui completely 15:42:01 <theholyduck> sure its not as included into the game, but i thought this was mostly a debugging thing anyway 15:45:10 <Eddi|zuHause> what use is a debugging thing if the people needing to debug things don't have access to it? 15:45:34 <Eddi|zuHause> AIs are supposed to be contributed by players, so the debugging functionality should be in the game 15:49:11 *** Mazur [~mazur@53551A99.cable.casema.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:49:43 *** Capeguy [~capeguy@bb220-255-144-178.singnet.com.sg] has joined #openttd 15:49:45 *** Capeguy [~capeguy@bb220-255-144-178.singnet.com.sg] has left #openttd [] 15:51:11 *** Mazur [~mazur@53551A99.cable.casema.nl] has joined #openttd 15:54:44 *** Kovensky [~kovensky@abraxo.bluebottle.net.au] has quit [Quit: bbs] 15:54:44 *** [com]buster [~eternal@cust-03-55bf402e.adsl.scarlet.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:01:19 *** Kovensky [~kovensky@abraxo.bluebottle.net.au] has joined #openttd 16:16:34 *** llugo [~lugo@mgdb-4db8d226.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 16:18:34 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1D69D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:21:17 *** lugo [~lugo@mgdb-4db8c4bd.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:21:53 <aditsu> Afk|Vaxy: I think it just finished saving the map 16:28:33 *** nfc [~nfc@cable-hvk-fe7ede00-156.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #openttd 16:29:36 <aditsu> heh, loading it is taking a long time too 16:36:06 <aditsu> wow, almost 10 min 16:41:27 <aditsu> hm, is it possible to "freeze" everything except just letting one AI do terraforming? 16:43:46 <aditsu> Afk|Vaxy: still there? 16:47:22 <Afk|Vaxy> re 16:47:59 <Afk|Vaxy> sorry, I watched the Simpsons ;-) 16:48:15 <Afk|Vaxy> aditsu? 16:48:34 <aditsu> yeah, the AI is working, but very slow 16:49:01 <Afk|Vaxy> super :-) Now it is possible to recover "damaged" maps 16:49:06 <aditsu> and considering that it has to run locally, that's pretty bad 16:49:20 <aditsu> unless you can find a way to give it lots of money on the server 16:49:26 *** Nhawdge [60124674@ircip2.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 16:49:57 <Afk|Vaxy> I know how to give the AI enough money. 16:50:15 <Nhawdge> Hey all, anyone know if it's possible to make the game always give you the same startup colors each time? 16:50:30 <Afk|Vaxy> Just load the game into single player mode, do the money cheat and load the game on the server 16:50:42 <aditsu> oh, that works? ok then 16:51:29 <frosch123> you can also patch the server to refund the ai when no clients are connected 16:52:16 <frosch123> Nhawdge: not possible, unless you patch the game yourself 16:52:46 <Nhawdge> frosch123: Thanks 16:53:24 <Nhawdge> Anyone got any tips for someone just learning how to play? 16:53:41 <Nhawdge> I don't think reloading the map and starting over once I mess up is a good way to learn 16:54:25 *** fonsinchen [~fonsinche@brln-4dbc1697.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:54:30 *** snc [~snc@ip10.rdlbnc.com] has joined #openttd 16:57:34 *** welshdragon [~dragon@ip05.rdlbnc.com] has joined #openttd 16:58:44 <aditsu> Nhawdge: depends what you're struggling with 17:01:30 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@s55928dd9.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:01:45 <Nhawdge> aditsu: well mostly getting trains to operate on the same track, with different products 17:02:20 <Alberth> one option would be to post a save game, asking for advice 17:02:42 <aditsu> Nhawdge: you can carry products from a station that provides them to a station that accepts them 17:02:53 <aditsu> Nhawdge: and for multiple trains on a track you need signals 17:03:47 <Nhawdge> I'm getting okay with signals, i'm struggling with the difference between them 17:04:56 <aditsu> I probably understand 3 signals and use 2 of them :p 17:04:59 <Nhawdge> for a while I was using all combo signals, and that ended up biting me in the back 17:06:16 <Nhawdge> Which ones do you use? 17:06:41 *** Kurimus [Kurimus@dsl-tkubrasgw1-fe32dc00-253.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #openttd 17:06:55 <aditsu> block (one-way), and one-way path 17:07:11 <aditsu> I used to use 2-way block signals 17:07:45 <Nhawdge> What exactly does a block signal do? 17:08:24 <aditsu> allows only one train in the next section 17:08:53 <Nhawdge> ahhh 17:09:04 <Nhawdge> so, for example if I have two stations with two lanes each 17:09:14 <Nhawdge> the rails join up into one single rail 17:09:20 <Nhawdge> would I use block signals to keep one train on it? 17:10:16 <aditsu> yeah 17:10:27 <aditsu> but you'd better have a different track for coming back 17:10:51 <Nhawdge> so that wouldn't be a good idea to do it like that? 17:11:51 <aditsu> only for short tracks maybe 17:12:03 <Nhawdge> yeah, say a screen width apart 17:12:18 <Nhawdge> should I be doing longer distance tracks? 17:13:08 <aditsu> longer tracks = more money 17:13:32 *** Coco-Banana-Man [~Stephan.D@p5B2D9BEE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Regel Nr. 1: Jeder hört auf mein Kommando! - Regel Nr. 2: Jeder bleibt auf dem Weg! - Regel Nr. 3: ... ... Der, der blÀht, als hinterster geht!] 17:14:11 <Nhawdge> I thought the longer it took, the less you would make 17:14:28 <Nhawdge> I guess I don't quite understand the initial calculation 17:14:55 <aditsu> yes, but the payment rate is multiplied with the distance or something like that 17:15:27 <Nhawdge> so for example like, distance = initial amount 17:15:36 <Nhawdge> and then end amount = distance - time taken ? 17:16:14 <aditsu> distance, amount and time are 3 different things 17:17:05 <Nhawdge> essentially I'm supposed to make fast trips over long distances to make most profit? 17:17:21 <aditsu> yes 17:17:59 <Nhawdge> hmm well that makes sense 17:18:20 <Nhawdge> any industries that are worth while to focus on? 17:18:42 <aditsu> coal usually has high payment rates 17:19:00 <Nhawdge> hmm 17:19:02 <aditsu> also see http://wiki.openttd.org/Game_mechanics#Delivery_payment_rates 17:19:16 <Nhawdge> I usually ignored it since it was a one way transaction 17:19:22 <Nhawdge> no wonder I am so bad at this, lol 17:20:09 <Alberth> there is a cargo payment graph, that tells you how much a cargo is worth 17:20:22 <aditsu> I'm no expert either, just my experience 17:20:25 <Nhawdge> ahhhh 17:20:33 <aditsu> yes there's that graph you can check 17:20:38 <Nhawdge> well yeah it also looks like coal doesn't quite spoil either 17:20:50 <Nhawdge> so if you do suck at speed, atleast it can't go down any further 17:21:16 <Alberth> you get paid per unit of distance, and get fined for taking time, so fast long transport is best 17:21:34 <Nhawdge> that makes sense 17:22:35 *** Grelouk [~Grelouk@93.25.99.137] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:22:51 <Alberth> since running costs are very low compared to cargo payments, empty return trips are not much of a problem 17:23:47 <Alberth> so you make money when the train moves. Prevent blockage in the train network, at stations, etc 17:24:17 <Nhawdge> yeah, once I get the money making down a bit better I hope to learn the train signals 17:25:03 <aditsu> the strategy I'm using currently is to have one-way tracks (back and forth), one-way signals all the way, and many trains using the same tracks 17:25:43 <Nhawdge> that seems like a good idea 17:25:44 <aditsu> and I recently learned the one-way path signal, which is great for entrance to stations 17:26:02 <Nhawdge> do you use anything else with it? like a combo or entry signal? 17:26:18 <aditsu> I don't know those :p 17:26:25 <Alberth> http://wiki.openttd.org/Tutorial:Two_Platforms 17:27:05 <Alberth> Nhawdge: path signals cover most uses of those signals 17:27:17 <Nhawdge> I've read all the wiki tutorials, I really wish they would label which signals they use in the pictures 17:27:37 <Nhawdge> I get so confused when they just show a picture of working signals, but there are like 6 to choose from 17:28:05 <Alberth> not to mention that there are grfs with more variants of them :) 17:28:34 <Nhawdge> yeah that throws me in a huge loop 17:29:02 <Alberth> also, path signals allow more than one train in a single block, which sometimes increases performance dramatically 17:30:06 <Nhawdge> hmmm 17:30:17 <Nhawdge> last time I was doing really well I had this elaborate train network 17:30:25 <Nhawdge> and my trains started getting lost 17:30:29 <Nhawdge> anything to remedy that? 17:30:31 <Alberth> http://wiki.openttd.org/Signals 17:30:42 <Alberth> yes :) 17:30:55 <Nhawdge> I had signals set up 17:30:58 <Nhawdge> and decent ones too 17:31:08 <Alberth> trains needing service just move to the nearest depot 17:31:33 <Alberth> after servicing, they want to continue their journey 17:31:49 <Nhawdge> yeah I think that was my issue 17:31:59 <Nhawdge> I was being stingy on making more service stations 17:32:02 <Alberth> that means that from a depot, you may get trains going into unexpected directions 17:32:04 <frosch123> http://uwe.s2000.ws/ttdx/index.php?lang=en&filter=ottd <- also a useful page about signaling 17:32:32 <Alberth> I simply lay track to go from anywhere to anywhere 17:32:52 <aditsu> hm.. is there a wiki page about differences between openttd and real life? 17:33:15 <aditsu> it always amused me how a one-tile depot can create, contain and fix any number of trains :p 17:33:17 <Alberth> ie at each junction you can go in every direction from every ingoing line 17:33:54 <Alberth> the page will be a lot shorter if you just mention the things that are the same :) 17:34:15 <aditsu> haha 17:34:24 <Nhawdge> whoa! 17:34:26 <Alberth> aditsu: openttd does not aim for realism 17:34:32 <Nhawdge> semi-long distance coal trick works 17:34:45 <Alberth> look at the cargo payment chart 17:34:47 <frosch123> [19:32] <aditsu> hm.. is there a wiki page about differences between openttd and real life? <- actually there is http://devs.openttd.org/~belugas/realism_in_OpenTTD.txt :p 17:34:53 <Nhawdge> I'm turning a solid profit after a year 17:34:57 <Alberth> ROFL 17:35:03 <aditsu> Nhawdge: told ya :) 17:35:21 <Nhawdge> So where do I find this payment graph? 17:35:48 <Nhawdge> (serious this is nuts, 40k profit in 5 months, only 1 train on coal) 17:36:00 <aditsu> Nhawdge: so little? :p 17:36:10 <Nhawdge> I only have two trains running 17:36:14 <Nhawdge> and I'm a year and a half in 17:36:19 <aditsu> Nhawdge: there's a graphs button 17:36:28 <elho> aditsu: if only those depots where amusing and not so slow, i wish i could built large platform based depots that trains would enter fast :P 17:36:30 <aditsu> or charts, I forget 17:36:33 <Alberth> click, and hold 17:36:50 *** Chruker [~no@port113.ds1-vj.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #openttd 17:37:47 <Nhawdge> I found the payment graph 17:38:01 <Nhawdge> why I haven't I heard of valuables before? 17:38:23 <aditsu> banks appear later 17:38:35 <Nhawdge> is it like passengers? 17:38:45 <Nhawdge> the same thing that generates it, accepts it? 17:38:59 <aditsu> kind of, but they don't have large quantities 17:39:14 <Nhawdge> ahhhh 17:39:20 *** heffer [~felix@static-87-78-98-150.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:39:21 <Nhawdge> cost/quality thing? 17:39:31 <Alberth> banks are in sub-tropic climate mostly 17:40:04 <Nhawdge> oh okay, I usually play the temperate(?) as I don't need more to confuse me 17:40:16 <elho> the small quantities of valuables/gold perfectly fit the incredibly small load supersonic planes take :P 17:40:30 <Alberth> houses generate/accept passengers, banks accept/generate valuables 17:40:33 <Nhawdge> ohhh that's a good idea 17:40:42 <Nhawdge> okay, that makes sense 17:41:22 *** Westie [~westie@starfish.typefish.co.uk] has joined #openttd 17:41:32 <Alberth> if you select the land-information tool, and click at a house, you can see what it produces and accepts 17:42:05 <Nhawdge> where is this tool at? 17:42:42 <frosch123> on the menubar, the button no the very right 17:42:50 <Nhawdge> ahh, I see it 17:42:57 <frosch123> usually a ? or a (i) 17:43:07 *** Fast2 [~Fast2@p57AF9FE5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:43:34 <elho> a good advice is to right away buy an 11x9 sized area next to the first major station you place in a town, so you can later place an intercontinental airport without having to cut half of the town away ;) 17:44:41 <elho> (when only knowing the small one and that one which the original tt only had, their huge size comes as a surprise later) 17:46:09 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r19967 /trunk/src/lang/ (13 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed) 17:46:09 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0: 17:46:09 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: croatian - 1 changes by VoyagerOne 17:46:09 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: finnish - 1 changes by jpx_ 17:46:09 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: french - 1 changes by ElNounch 17:46:09 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: german - 1 changes by planetmaker 17:46:09 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: indonesian - 1 changes by prof 17:48:14 <aditsu> another funny thing compared to real life is that you can take passengers to anywhere you want, they will happily pay at the destination 17:48:54 <aditsu> (and mail) 17:49:04 <theholyduck> aditsu, cargo dest is being worked on 17:49:18 <theholyduck> so that passengers and what not has destinations 17:49:28 <Nhawdge> that will be pretty cool 17:49:41 <aditsu> will it? 17:49:50 <theholyduck> aditsu, possibly atleast 17:50:03 *** heffer [~felix@static-87-78-98-150.netcologne.de] has joined #openttd 17:50:32 <Nhawdge> argggg, I feel so dumb 17:50:42 <Nhawdge> I started a new game now that I got the feel of this a lot better 17:51:03 <Nhawdge> spent 5,000 on a tunnel, only to realize I linked two coal mines together 17:51:09 <Alberth> :D 17:51:29 <Nhawdge> I should hit myself in the head for that dumb move 17:51:33 <Alberth> now you have a nice connection to transport all coal to the same power plant 17:52:29 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@94-224-31-113.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 17:53:01 <aditsu> I wonder what Chris Sawyer thinks about openttd and the changes 17:53:38 <Nhawdge> anyone ever met him? 17:54:34 <aditsu> btw long tunnels suck, only 1 train can be inside 17:55:38 <Nhawdge> yeah, I'm learning that the hard way 17:55:49 <Nhawdge> any better ideas for avoiding terrain suckage? 17:56:29 <frosch123> just build over or around the hill 17:56:38 <frosch123> it is not such a big penalty as it might seem 17:56:55 <Nhawdge> hmm 17:57:08 <Nhawdge> well, I threw like, 6 coal cars on this beast 17:57:22 <Nhawdge> I figure taking that up a hill has gotta have it's penalties 17:57:59 <frosch123> build the track so he have not multiple slopes directly after each other 17:58:09 <frosch123> *you 17:59:00 <Nhawdge> is it better to have one nasty slope than 5 small ones? 17:59:00 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1D69D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 17:59:33 <frosch123> 5 small is better 18:00:04 <Nhawdge> okay 18:00:15 <aditsu> I noticed that many servers have no speed penalty for slopes 18:00:23 *** DDR [~chatzilla@d99-199-13-89.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd 18:00:41 <aditsu> only for sharp turns 18:00:44 <Alberth> depends on the acceleration setting 18:00:46 *** b_jonas [~x@dsl51B66BC6.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #openttd 18:01:13 <Nhawdge> do most of you guys play the multiplayer? 18:01:36 <aditsu> I do, got kinda bored of single player 18:01:59 * frosch123 does not 18:02:22 <Nhawdge> hmm, I don't even play with bots 18:02:27 <Nhawdge> I'm a sore loser 18:02:35 <Nhawdge> what is the multiplayer like? 18:02:46 <aditsu> haha 18:02:54 <Alberth> http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=112747 <-- this is how I go uphill 18:03:11 <aditsu> I think it's quite nice, the most difficult part is to find a suitable game 18:03:16 * Alberth also plays single player without AI opponents 18:03:33 <aditsu> wow 18:03:47 <Alberth> for multiplayer, I prefer co-operative play 18:04:03 <aditsu> oh, haven't tried that 18:04:13 <Nhawdge> yeah, I enjoy coop aswell 18:04:23 <Nhawdge> that is quite a crazy up hill scheme 18:04:34 <aditsu> yeah.. is it worth it?! 18:04:41 <frosch123> haha, albert does the same tricks like me. long way up, straight route down :p 18:05:15 <Nhawdge> how do you guys all feel about train length? 18:05:28 <frosch123> short trains are nicer 18:06:05 <Nhawdge> I was just saying cause it looks like Alberth has like 10 car ones in that picture 18:06:20 <frosch123> 5 tiles is standard length 18:06:30 <aditsu> I usually start with about 5 cars, but later when I have huge quantities to transport and tracks get crowded, I grow them to about 10 total length 18:06:35 <frosch123> 3 tiles for short distances, or weak engines 18:06:48 <aditsu> (fitting in 5 tiles) 18:06:57 <Nhawdge> sheesh, I feel like a sissy, I normally don't go over 3 tiles 18:07:04 <frosch123> so same as me :) 18:07:09 <Nhawdge> but I also start my game in the 1940s so It's only steam 18:07:34 <aditsu> I prefer to start with maglev, absolutely hate rail conversions :p 18:08:05 <frosch123> Nhawdge: chose the trainlength so full loading takes 50% to 25% of total travel time (including traveling back) 18:08:31 <frosch123> so 2 to 4 trains service one industry 18:08:50 <aditsu> um.. I have industries with >50 trains :p 18:09:00 <frosch123> (well, unless you play on very big maps with very huge distances, but i do not play such maps) 18:09:13 <frosch123> aditsu: primary industries 18:09:25 <frosch123> at game start 18:09:47 <Nhawdge> yeah, I always feel like my setup sucks so I rarely keep a game over 5 years 18:11:11 <frosch123> aditsu: or do you have primary industries with > 50 trains? :p 18:11:35 <frosch123> then you are likely playing 2k x 2k, which i do not like at all 18:11:56 <Nhawdge> aditsu: Are you playing right now? 18:12:16 *** andythenorth [~andytheno@salieri.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 18:12:18 <SpComb> so, who wants an updated version of cargodist-sprinkles 18:12:21 <aditsu> frosch123: yes on a 2k map 18:12:23 <andythenorth> evening 18:12:26 <aditsu> Nhawdge: no 18:12:59 <Nhawdge> what's cargodist? 18:13:04 <Nhawdge> and I would love some sprinkles 18:13:35 <SpComb> you can't have plain sprinkles on their own 18:13:52 <Nhawdge> that's what my mom always said 18:14:01 <SpComb> she was right 18:14:04 <Nhawdge> then when I moved out, I found out you can buy them on their own 18:14:07 <Nhawdge> that lying whore! 18:15:02 <SpComb> maybe it's like Microsoft's OEM licenses, you can't buy them on their own, you're supposed to buy them along with some other piece of hardware 18:15:13 <Nhawdge> lol 18:15:58 <Nhawdge> Do these cargodist come in a cupcake form? 18:16:35 <Alberth> it does, if you cut the CD in small pieces 18:17:05 <Alberth> of course, you have to burn it onto the CD first :p 18:17:15 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1D69D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:18:07 <Nhawdge> hmm 18:18:13 <Nhawdge> I don't have any blank discs 18:18:17 <Nhawdge> would a flash drive do? 18:19:09 <SpComb> you have to be careful to cut the actual flash memory die into pieces, and hit the embedded core 18:19:16 <SpComb> not just the drive casing and controller board 18:19:51 <SpComb> but no, cargodist is a .patch 18:20:03 <Nhawdge> oh? 18:20:10 <SpComb> yes 18:20:15 <Nhawdge> you've got my interest 18:20:41 * SpComb is compiling 18:21:10 *** Afk|Vaxy is now known as Vaxy-DE 18:21:32 <aditsu> can openttd make use of multiple cpu cores? 18:21:57 <SpComb> aditsu: not in the way that you're probably referring to 18:22:05 <Alberth> you can run one game at each core :) 18:22:15 <SpComb> or save a lot 18:22:57 <Alberth> the program saves its data with another core, but that does not happen a lot 18:23:10 <aditsu> maybe if the AIs could run on separate threads.. 18:23:12 <SpComb> wasn't it /compressing/ the save data? 18:23:28 <Alberth> SpComb don't know 18:23:46 <Alberth> aditsu: practically all code needs the central map 18:24:07 <frosch123> when using sdl it also does the blitting on a different core 18:24:50 <Alberth> also, in multi-player, the non-determinism caused by using multiple cores would be a lot of trouble 18:25:09 <b_jonas> currently, if you have a multi-core cpu, it's likely fast enough that one core can run openttd without lag. 18:25:18 <aditsu> or animations vs movement 18:25:18 <Nhawdge> any of you guys playing a multiplayer game right now? 18:25:43 <Alberth> b_jonas: until you run a big game :) 18:26:00 <b_jonas> Alberth: is it the graphics that are slow or the moves? 18:26:00 <andythenorth> frosch123: is var B3 available to cb28? 18:26:34 <frosch123> what is b3? 18:26:58 <b_jonas> Alberth: I admit I haven't ran a big game yet, nor one with hundreds of trains, but the one I'm running uses almost no cpu. 18:27:04 <b_jonas> maybe if you fast-forward 18:27:04 <andythenorth> http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=VarAction2Industries#Construction_type_B3_ 18:27:18 <andythenorth> frosch123: nvm I'm being stupid 18:27:35 <Alberth> b_jonas: I don't have the numbers, but afaik the calculations of industry production, goods being moved to/from stations, train movement, block managing, collision checking take the most time 18:27:35 <andythenorth> I need to check if the game is in scenario editor 18:27:57 <Alberth> b_jonas: fast-forward runs as fast as your machine can handle 18:28:11 <aditsu> well, a 2k*2k map, my company has >450 trains, there are about 10 companies, and an AI that does some intense work on checking the map 18:28:31 <Alberth> oh, yeah, AIs also tend to eat lots of CPU time :) 18:29:04 <b_jonas> I see 18:29:06 <frosch123> andythenorth: it is not available, but there is no reason to not add it 18:29:35 * Alberth always gets lost on a 2k*2k map 18:29:35 <b_jonas> how can you even follow a 2k*2k map as a human? 18:29:36 <andythenorth> frosch123: I need to check if game is in scenario editor. I don't think B3 will do that 18:29:49 <andythenorth> I can't see an action D or varaction 2 for it either 18:29:57 <frosch123> i->construction_type = (_game_mode == GM_EDITOR) ? ICT_SCENARIO_EDITOR : 18:29:59 <frosch123> (_generating_world ? ICT_MAP_GENERATION : ICT_NORMAL_GAMEPLAY); 18:29:59 *** fjb [~frank@p5485D50C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 18:30:00 <frosch123> it does 18:30:08 *** theholyduck [~holyduck@77.106.155.17] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:30:09 <aditsu> it's a map of Europe, I have an idea where things are :) 18:30:16 <frosch123> there is a varact2 variable for game mode 18:30:18 <b_jonas> I mean, even on a normal (256x256) map, when I have sixty trains I can't really follow them anymore, even with pausing a lot 18:30:34 <frosch123> you can also access it via action 679d though 18:30:42 <b_jonas> it's not getting lost on the map, but making sure all the routes are functional 18:30:57 <frosch123> var 12 18:31:06 <aditsu> I sort trains by profit, look at the poor ones 18:31:50 <andythenorth> action d var 12 miscmods? 18:31:54 <b_jonas> aditsu: do you turn disasters off? 18:32:09 *** theholyduck [~holyduck@77.106.155.17] has joined #openttd 18:32:11 <Alberth> that's good enough usually, you soon make so much money that a few poorly performing trains won't matter 18:32:14 <aditsu> I think the admin did 18:32:16 <Alberth> b_jonas: I do 18:32:26 <b_jonas> I turn them off 18:32:26 <andythenorth> ah varaction 2 var 12 I see 18:32:27 <frosch123> varact2 var 12 18:32:36 <Alberth> b_jonas: but I play with breakdowns, and servicing on 18:32:49 <b_jonas> yes, me too 18:34:41 * peter1138 wonders if ccfreak2k's opengl blitter is usable 18:35:47 <SpComb> Nhawdge: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=882913#p882913 18:35:53 * andythenorth unbreaks building industries in scenario editor :P 18:35:55 <fjb> Mojn 18:35:56 <SpComb> Nhawdge: if you want to test it; tell me if it crashes 18:37:04 * andythenorth wonders about scaling industry clusters by map size 18:37:18 <Nhawdge> SpComb^: what is this for? 18:37:38 * andythenorth puts a hand up for help 18:37:43 <SpComb> Nhawdge: cargodist with sprinkles 18:38:04 *** JVassie [~James@nelocat2.gotadsl.co.uk] has joined #openttd 18:38:10 <Nhawdge> whats in it? the sprinkles don't sell themselves 18:38:14 <b_jonas> is drag-dropping a train within a single train list window the only way to put a train in a group? 18:38:32 <b_jonas> apart from cloning and renewing trains that is 18:41:10 * Alberth never uses groups 18:43:38 <b_jonas> I find them convenient 18:45:14 <Alberth> how do you use them? 18:45:20 <elho> i wish a train could be in more than one group 18:46:00 <b_jonas> Alberth: when I check all the trains, I go through them in groups instead of by number order, 18:46:08 <elho> or better yet if there where a whole lot of filters (like by cargo type, by source/dest, whatever) 18:46:28 <b_jonas> and when I replace or change trains, I usually have to check other trains in a group too 18:46:31 <SpComb> elho: tags instead of groups 18:46:42 <b_jonas> SpComb: right 18:46:43 <andythenorth> how many map sizes are there? 18:46:46 <elho> b_jonas: but what you put in one group? 18:46:58 <Alberth> b_jonas: oh, I use station lists for that. Just find a station that they all visit. 18:47:01 <b_jonas> elho: trains on a single line or multiple related lines 18:47:14 <b_jonas> Alberth: that helps in the second case, but not in the first case, when I iterate over all trains, 18:48:04 <Alberth> andythenorth: 2^6 to 2^11, ie 6 18:48:22 <b_jonas> Alberth: but aren't there rectangular ones? 18:48:44 <SpComb> Nhawdge: a custom build with features not in normal versions 18:48:49 <Alberth> andythenorth: for horizontally and vertically seperate :p 18:49:08 <andythenorth> I only care about the total area. I just need to scale the number of industry clusters appropriately 18:49:20 <aditsu> hm.. openttd just crashed on me 18:49:36 <Nhawdge> SpComb^: Tempting, but I am struggling enough learning these normal features 18:49:45 <SpComb> then no 18:49:47 <aditsu> trying to connect to a multiplayer game 18:50:35 <aditsu> openttd(_ZNK10AIInstance6IsDeadEv+0xc) -> what does that mean? 18:50:49 <SpComb> not much on its own 18:50:59 * andythenorth won't be support 64x64 maps with FIRS :o 18:51:11 <Alberth> b_jonas: yes, you can set horizontal and vertical size independently. A few weeks back I played 256x1024, it gives a very nice twist to laying tracks :) 18:51:25 <b_jonas> aditsu: likely the instruction pointer from the traceback 18:51:31 <aditsu> SpComb: should I post the crash log? 18:51:42 <elho> Alberth: looking at that zig-zag slope picture from earlier on, it is always interesting to see how others play. but i assume that one is more aesthetical than useful, right? 18:52:02 <elho> my current map is 2048x256 18:52:08 <b_jonas> elho: wow 18:52:20 <aditsu> b_jonas: but what does it mean that AI instance 6 is dead? 18:52:23 <SpComb> aditsu: from whate version? 18:52:34 <aditsu> 1.0.1 18:52:49 <SpComb> aditsu: then post it on bugs.openttd.org, sure 18:52:58 <SpComb> but test in 1.0.2-RC first 18:53:25 <aditsu> I can't get that easily 18:53:35 <Alberth> elho: to some extent it *is* useful, a train won't climb a high hill (I have freight multipliers set quite high :) ) 18:53:57 <SpComb> aditsu: then post it in any case 18:54:09 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@94-224-31-113.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: oO] 18:54:42 <elho> Alberth: well, use 4 engines then, or whatever it'll take ;) 18:55:20 <frosch123> andythenorth: that action d variables also gives you the total map area 18:55:26 <Nhawdge> is it possible to make multiple engines work the same train? 18:55:29 <Alberth> elho: nah 18:55:43 <Alberth> Nhawdge: sure, just buy another locomotive 18:55:54 <Alberth> and put it in the same train 18:56:05 <Nhawdge> Alberth: would it get me twice the horsepower for a single long train? 18:56:16 <Alberth> of course running costs double as well :) 18:57:05 <Nhawdge> is there a limit of engines? 18:57:05 <Alberth> Nhawdge: I'd expect so, but I don't know much about train acceleration 18:57:35 <Alberth> you run out of money? :) 18:58:17 <Nhawdge> haha, yeah I'm doing awful this time around 18:58:42 <frosch123> andythenorth: "1 << min(0, (patchvar13 & 0xFF) - 3)" gives you 128 on 2k x 2k maps, and 1 on 128x256 maps 18:58:44 <elho> the freaking thing is just that openttd at some point started to force the dual-vehicle locomotives to be one in the front and one in the back, and not being able to make it 4 in the front hurts my eyes :/ 18:59:14 <frosch123> just compute that once using action d and, then use that parameter to compare in varact2 18:59:25 <andythenorth> frosch123: I'm just running tests on different map sizes.... 18:59:31 <andythenorth> never used action d :o 18:59:37 <b_jonas> Nhawdge: too many engines just make the train heavy to pull (engines are usually heavier than carriages) and long for stations 19:00:07 <frosch123> don't be afraid, it is not named after dalestan :p 19:00:20 <elho> thank god there's drag'n'drop stations though ;) 19:00:28 <Nhawdge> b_jonas: so stick with 1 for the most part? 19:00:30 <aditsu> SpComb: http://bugs.openttd.org/task/3875 19:00:46 <frosch123> s/min/max/ actually 19:01:08 <Alberth> aditsu: crash.save and crash.dump ? 19:01:25 <aditsu> Alberth: I'll check and attach 19:01:26 *** Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #openttd 19:01:34 <Alberth> oh, and a .png file too 19:01:54 <frosch123> and .log :) 19:02:02 <frosch123> .sav, .dmp, .log, .png 19:02:13 <aditsu> Alberth: I can only find sav and log 19:02:21 <aditsu> or are they in different places? 19:02:42 <frosch123> hmm, wait, you were on linux or so, right? 19:02:49 <aditsu> yes 19:03:02 <frosch123> then there is no .dmp 19:03:43 <Alberth> mine usually end up in ~/.openttd 19:04:00 <Alberth> ie the directory of the openttd.cfg file 19:04:13 <aditsu> yeah.. but I only have sav and log 19:04:25 <aditsu> oh, the sav is empty (0 bytes) 19:04:50 *** einKarl [~einKarl@95-89-121-65-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:05:46 <b_jonas> Nhawdge: I can't really give you advice, I don't have much practice with multi-engine trains (nor openttd realistic acceleration) yet 19:06:17 <Nhawdge> b_jonas: ahh, okay 19:06:41 <Alberth> aditsu: the .log does not say much more than "it crashed". We'd need a way to reproduce the problem, or at least more information. 19:07:09 <aditsu> it does have a stack trace 19:07:38 <aditsu> I can post the server info, but the stuff on the server might change 19:08:06 <Alberth> do you have a save game? (perhaps an autosave one) ? 19:08:37 <aditsu> the other instance is doing autosaves 19:09:05 <aditsu> but that's not the same 19:09:54 <aditsu> oh, I have a "network_client.tmp" in the autosave dir 19:09:55 <Alberth> a save game that crashes is all we need 19:10:02 <elho> Nhawdge: i do not have much either, because i a) terraform the hill away and be done with it, b) am doing maglevs way before i'm done at connecting everything on the map due the fast gamespeed. and maglevs go uphill without slowdown. :) 19:10:04 <aditsu> with the same time as the crash log 19:10:38 <aditsu> I'll attach that 19:11:03 <Alberth> .tmp does not sound very good :) 19:11:14 <b_jonas> elho: do you build long trains? 19:11:44 <b_jonas> I usually don't use more than 12 total carriages (including engines) 19:11:45 <frosch123> iirc the downloaded save from the server is stored in network_client.tmp 19:11:49 <elho> b_jonas: 32 vehicle (so 16 tile stations) 19:12:15 <b_jonas> I see 19:12:16 <b_jonas> thanks 19:12:17 <Nhawdge> what do you guys carry on trains that long? 19:12:43 <elho> everything, except gold (not enough of that) 19:13:39 <b_jonas> elho: you don't mean to have train full of mail, right? 19:14:32 <aditsu> Alberth: attached anyway 19:14:56 * andythenorth hmms 19:15:26 <Alberth> ok, thanks 19:15:29 <andythenorth> Nhawdge: if you use transfer orders, it's quite easy to have a lot of trucks feeding one big train 19:15:49 <andythenorth> 5 mines -> trucks -> transfer station can fill 2000t trains easily :) 19:15:56 * andythenorth hmms about map sizes 19:16:07 <Nhawdge> andythenorth: I never really use trucks, thats a good idea 19:16:26 <andythenorth> if the industry probability distribution gets tweaked in trunk for any reason, my clustering is going to be...wrong 19:16:31 <andythenorth> Nhawdge: try HEQS :) 19:16:54 <Nhawdge> andythenorth: HEQS? 19:17:14 <andythenorth> Nhawdge: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=37912 19:17:40 <elho> Nhawdge: the idea is to take a laaarge map, then say collect all wood on the map to the single sawmill that is most far away and close to one corner of the map and then the thousands of tonnes of paper you get across the whole network to some printing works that turns it into goods. now take the goods to all the cities you service. that'll take you a whole lot of long trains for each carge type. 19:18:12 <frosch123> http://media.openttd.org/images/screens/0.6/ravenswald.png http://media.openttd.org/images/screens/0.6/preussische_staatsbahn.png <- Nhawdge: there are different goals in playing. some try to maximize everything by transporting coal at 450 km/h. other play it like model trains, other play on mountainious terrain with very limited space 19:18:43 <b_jonas> elho: why to all the cities? why not just one city? 19:19:05 <elho> b_jonas: right, passengers/mail is the exception i mix in one train (as well as wheat/linestock, but that is just the same farm-stuff to me) 19:19:15 <aditsu> holy sh... cow! 19:19:29 <Nhawdge> frosch123: good lord at that station place, does it even accept goods? 19:19:29 <aditsu> that last screenshot is mind boggling 19:19:36 <b_jonas> elho: openttd is strange in that some farms produce much more of one than the other 19:19:45 <b_jonas> elho: or is that only because I messed up something? 19:20:25 <b_jonas> that second screenshot is crazy 19:21:16 <elho> frosch123: the goals aren't even contradicting itself. i totally play it like model trains and not care about profit. i only maximize production to get the network as crowded as possible :) 19:21:23 <Nhawdge> so that HEQS thing has bulldozers in it, what are those for? 19:21:40 <andythenorth> eye candy mostly 19:21:43 <andythenorth> they are very slow 19:21:50 <andythenorth> I just like bulldozers so I included them 19:22:12 <Nhawdge> What do they do? 19:22:12 <aditsu> haha that HEQS stuff reminds me of pictures like these: http://www.google.com/images?q=mining truck 19:22:19 <b_jonas> bulldozers like those a town uses when you order road reconstuction? 19:22:20 <frosch123> elho: playing on a very flat map and mountainious is very different 19:22:20 <Nhawdge> can they gather on their own? 19:22:32 <frosch123> you have no chance to build a big station in mountainious 19:22:55 <elho> b_jonas: i think commercial buildings benefit from goods. i might be mistaken though. 19:24:16 <elho> i also always thought a farm would be harmed by destroying their fields and crushed any nearby town that tried to expand and bought a protective barrier of land around it :P 19:25:22 <b_jonas> elho: isn't the farm thing true in Locomotion? 19:25:23 <elho> must have been that by coincidence production went down at a farm that i bulldozed around that made me "learn" that wrong ;) 19:25:26 <andythenorth> elho: this page explains what effect the various town cargos have: http://wiki.openttd.org/Town_growth 19:25:36 <andythenorth> bulldozing fields has no effect 19:25:42 <Alberth> andythenorth: industry probabilities need more work than small tweaking :) 19:25:54 <andythenorth> Alberth: in what resp? 19:26:07 * KenjiE20 bulldozes andythenorth's farm for a bypass 19:26:23 * andythenorth bulldozes back 19:27:05 <KenjiE20> but it's a bypass, you have to build bypasses 19:27:06 <b_jonas> I do think bulldozing the fields have no effect, but I still avoid bulldozing fields if there's no reason for it. For example, I bulldoze fields if I need terraforming for a train track, but I avoid fields if I just want to plant trees for town rating. 19:27:27 <b_jonas> Also, farms sometimes make new fields. 19:27:29 <andythenorth> bulldozing fields *is* more expensive than bulldozing empty land 19:27:45 <b_jonas> andythenorth: sure 19:27:54 <b_jonas> so is bulldozing stone or rough land 19:28:13 <andythenorth> ach 19:28:14 <b_jonas> but when I have lots of money that doesn't count much 19:28:23 * andythenorth has tested cluster counts enough 19:28:25 <elho> andythenorth: thanks, i know its all in the wiki somewhere, but i only get a week of hardcore playing every few months, so i have trouble knowing the whole mechanics inside out and remembering it :) 19:28:30 <andythenorth> how do I do this action d thing 19:29:14 <elho> you plant trees?!?! i hate the freaking trees, i rather do bribing ;D 19:29:17 <b_jonas> in case anyone's interested, there are two things that weren't obvious to me when I played ttd at first: 19:29:54 <Alberth> andythenorth: I think it would be useful if the random generation of industries depends on what currently exists on the map, ie build a feedback loop 19:30:03 <b_jonas> that trees can fix town ratings (this I only found out when I read on the internet), and that the build tracks button have a dropdown menu (before that I couldn't fix old tracks destroyed by ufos) 19:30:20 <elho> before invisibility was added to the transparency options, i bulldozed trees away in large areas just to properly see the landscape :P 19:30:32 <Alberth> :) 19:30:35 <andythenorth> Alberth: during map generation, or during gameplay? 19:30:48 <b_jonas> elho: sure, I bulldoze trees to build tracks and to see signals 19:30:50 <Alberth> the latter at least, and perhaps the former too 19:30:57 <b_jonas> elho: but I also plant lots of trees 19:31:00 <Alberth> but not sure 19:31:01 <b_jonas> I do lots of both 19:31:13 <aditsu> when I want to see things, I just press x 19:31:13 <elho> i know that trees make towns happy. but i preper bribing no matter how more expensive just decause the trees annoy me so much. ;) 19:31:37 <Alberth> andythenorth: one could also look at what players do, and adapt to that 19:31:40 <aditsu> elho: a true environmentalist :) 19:32:03 <andythenorth> Alberth: in trunk, or provided within newgrf? 19:32:06 * Alberth disables the tree generation :) 19:32:19 <andythenorth> i.e. newgrf can probably do what you're suggesting already 19:32:30 <elho> aditsu: guess i should stop transporting coal to show support for nuclear energy, huh? :D 19:33:10 <Alberth> andythenorth: it needs an overview of the whole map, and see what gets serviced. 19:33:29 <aditsu> oh, what a great idea, coal and oil should run out around 2050 like it's gonna happen irl :) 19:33:35 <elho> Alberth: oh, does that mean no trees at all, or just disabring that insane spread all over the place? the latter i'd be interested in 19:33:52 <Alberth> elho: it is a generator option 19:33:55 <andythenorth> Alberth: the industry code is already suffering from complexity problems, I'm not sure if anything should be added to it :o 19:34:18 <Alberth> andythenorth: trunk or newgrf, or both? 19:34:29 <andythenorth> currently, when I set a probability for an industry, here's what I have to test for: 19:34:37 <andythenorth> (a) combinations of map sizes 19:34:43 *** Kurimus [Kurimus@dsl-tkubrasgw1-fe32dc00-253.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [] 19:34:45 <elho> Alberth: ah, you're talking about the editor, gotcha 19:35:02 <Alberth> elho: no, the generator window 19:35:16 <andythenorth> (b) combinations of: industry count, terrain type, smoothness, sea level and variety distribution 19:35:32 <andythenorth> all just to make sure players don't whine about industry counts with a certain combination :P 19:35:50 <andythenorth> if we add another thing, it gets worse :o 19:36:06 <Alberth> elho: http://wiki.openttd.org/New_game <-- notice 'tree algorithm' ? 19:36:14 <elho> Alberth: but picking up the tool AI concept of earlier today, one could do a forester AI that bulldozes trees close to all non-blank fields all day long :D 19:37:01 * andythenorth is baffled by action d 19:37:39 <Alberth> andythenorth: yes, we should toss it all overboard, and make something more adaptable, like a script 19:38:37 <andythenorth> really? 19:38:45 <elho> Alberth: yeah, that generator window to me is part of the editor, the first step you take. even it actually might be its own component (or even changed, my current map i did in <=0.6.0) 19:39:02 * Alberth briefly confused action D with action C, and was wondering about the baffledness of andy :) 19:40:28 <Alberth> andythenorth: is a script not a good idea? 19:40:46 <andythenorth> might be. how would it work? 19:42:12 <Nhawdge> It was nice chatting with you all, thanks for the help and have a nice day 19:42:19 <b_jonas> aditsu: oil running out in 2050 would be bad, becuase oil rigs start only quite late in the game 19:42:35 *** Nhawdge [60124674@ircip2.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 19:42:44 <b_jonas> aditsu: as for coal it wouldn't change that much, becasue coal isn't too profitable in late game anyway 19:42:50 <b_jonas> so coal could run out 19:43:01 <b_jonas> maybe mines should run out only if you actually mine them? 19:43:08 <b_jonas> individual mines that is 19:43:42 <elho> andythenorth: reading on the town wiki page, it only states that goods do not make towns grow. that i knew, my impression rather was that they would affect ratio of commercial to residential buildings. 19:44:12 <andythenorth> no they just disappear into a black hole, no effect on gameplay apart from income 19:44:16 <aditsu> actually coal is still quite profitable.. anyway, if coal or oil run out, there should be something to replace them... hm.. uranium mines? solar panel factories? :p 19:44:43 <elho> uranium mines could be added then. and nuke factories. then deliver nuke a city that hates you, and.... oh wait, different game concept ;D 19:45:23 <aditsu> how about a nice game of chess? :) 19:45:28 <andythenorth> windfarm 19:45:35 <elho> if oil runs out, your trucks and busses would have to stop working, too ;) 19:45:57 <aditsu> nah, new electric vehicles 19:46:00 <Alberth> andythenorth: You load an economy script that runs like a AI that controls the industry generation, and perhaps other things. 19:46:13 <Alberth> aditsu: go is much nicer :) 19:46:31 <andythenorth> scroll down on this page: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=854189#p854189 19:46:36 <aditsu> Alberth: agreed, but that's how the quote goes 19:46:38 <Alberth> andythenorth: of course, realizing such a scripted game is non trivial :) 19:46:41 <aditsu> Alberth: how strong are you? 19:46:49 <andythenorth> Alberth: sounds like it would fit with the 'goals' idea that's kicking around 19:47:21 <b_jonas> elho: how would nuke factories work? 19:47:24 <andythenorth> http://wiki.openttd.org/Requested_features/Gameplay_Goals_Framework 19:47:28 <andythenorth> Alberth: ^ 19:48:26 <Alberth> aditsu: I was about 12kyu, but I haven't played for several years 19:49:22 <andythenorth> frosch123: I'm guessing, probably wrongly: 19:49:24 <aditsu> I play on kgs from time to time, about 3k now 19:49:27 <andythenorth> -1 * 0 0D FF 00 13 FE FF FF 00 00 //Store map size 19:49:50 <aditsu> andythenorth: what do you do with wind farms? 19:50:00 <andythenorth> aditsu: nothing 19:50:08 <aditsu> oh, they're just there? 19:50:11 <andythenorth> they are currently pointless, so they are not enabled in FIRS 19:50:42 <Alberth> andythenorth: yes, I have your goals framework page bookmarked somewhere 19:51:35 <Alberth> b_jonas: you bring sufficient uranium into the factory, then you get a big firework, and you have a nuked factory 19:52:12 <Alberth> andythenorth: scenarios would also fit in it 19:52:51 <andythenorth> Alberth: yup 19:52:58 <Alberth> the bad news is that it needs extension of the network protocol 19:53:05 <b_jonas> Alberth: if you want a similar game where you eventually get to drop nukes, why not just play settlers? 19:53:20 <frosch123> andythenorth: FF is too much, there are not that many parameters 19:53:57 <Alberth> b_jonas: I am not so much of an invasive type of person 19:54:01 <andythenorth> I'll change it 19:54:29 *** Illegal_Alien [~Illegal_A@ip4da39612.direct-adsl.nl] has joined #openttd 19:54:32 <frosch123> i do not know how many parameters you use, but 10 should be safe :p 19:54:40 <ccfreak2k> peter1138, it's not mine, but at one point it was. 19:54:50 <Alberth> b_jonas: besides I was just answering your question of how 'a nuke factory' works. 19:55:29 <andythenorth> frosch123: I've put it on a cpp ID 19:56:04 <ccfreak2k> Rather, at one point it was working. 19:56:29 <ccfreak2k> However, I've heard there's been some changes the something blitter-related that caused it to not work anymore without some modifications. 19:58:01 <andythenorth> frosch123: http://paste.openttd.org/225920 19:58:03 <andythenorth> :| 19:59:59 <frosch123> nforenum bug 20:00:18 <frosch123> looks fine to me 20:01:14 <elho> b_jonas: you would bring in uranim from an uranium mine (and eventually steel) and get out a shiny rocket ;) 20:02:14 <b_jonas> elho: ah, nice idea 20:02:28 <b_jonas> elho: and when the rocket reaches Alpha Centauri, you win the game 20:02:36 <b_jonas> provided you're not yet bankrupt 20:03:06 <elho> haha 20:03:33 <aditsu> what about aliens? I think that UFO thing should be developed 20:03:43 <elho> beaming! 20:03:45 <aditsu> maybe they set up a base 20:04:07 <elho> now that will earn you money, get all goods to anyplace in zero time :D 20:06:07 <aditsu> alien alloy factories :p 20:07:15 <elho> another one your environmentalist comment made me think of, would be waste as cargo. cities could produce enormous amounts of it. 20:07:17 <aditsu> and Elerium-115 mines 20:09:06 <elho> and you could get money for loading waste. then it is up to you whether you transport it do a dump or incineration plant or just load it on a ship that dumps it into the sea :P 20:11:10 <aditsu> or you take it to China and pay a small fee 20:11:30 <elho> and that nuke factory produces radioactive waste. cities get pissed if you transport it through them, and delivered to a dump, it will reappear at some point to be transported elsewhere :D 20:12:32 * andythenorth fails to read map size correctly :o 20:13:18 <andythenorth> what is a bit switch format anyway? 20:17:06 *** DDR [~chatzilla@d99-199-13-89.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:19:48 <planetmaker> 1011011 <- like that, andythenorth 20:19:57 <planetmaker> you interpret each position as an on/off 20:20:15 <planetmaker> mask and shift for a 0/1 value 20:20:19 <andythenorth> planetmaker: want to help? :D 20:20:36 <andythenorth> I'm lacking will to tackle this bit. 20:20:37 <planetmaker> I want to solve your dep issue ;-) 20:20:45 <andythenorth> ho hey, can't argue with that :) 20:21:05 *** KouDy [~KouDy@83.111.219.33] has joined #openttd 20:21:32 * andythenorth considers optimising industry clustering to his own favourite map size 20:23:49 <planetmaker> nah 20:24:42 <andythenorth> planetmaker: you seem to like action D & parameters anyway, so I might await help :P 20:25:07 *** Mazur [~mazur@53551A99.cable.casema.nl] has quit [Quit: Partir, c'est mourir un peu.] 20:28:02 *** KouDy [~KouDy@83.111.219.33] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:29:31 *** Mazur [~mazur@53551A99.cable.casema.nl] has joined #openttd 20:30:18 *** Lokimaros [~mazur@53551A99.cable.casema.nl] has joined #openttd 20:30:28 *** Lokimaros [~mazur@53551A99.cable.casema.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:30:38 <planetmaker> he 20:30:47 <planetmaker> andythenorth: what do you want from parameters? 20:31:01 <andythenorth> push map size into a parameter with action D 20:31:05 <andythenorth> then read it back later 20:31:37 *** KouDy [~KouDy@83.111.219.33] has joined #openttd 20:36:05 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Administr@89.246.204.11] has joined #openttd 20:36:37 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: mines should cluster? 20:38:08 <frosch123> i guess only coal mines 20:38:43 <andythenorth> iron ore? 20:38:57 <frosch123> would other mines rather need some height? 20:39:09 <andythenorth> height? 20:39:09 <frosch123> i.e. mountain 20:39:15 <andythenorth> hmm 20:39:36 <andythenorth> location restrictions add to the already horrible complexity :P 20:39:53 <andythenorth> which reminds me about farms & snowline 20:40:24 <frosch123> coal and oil are organic and are usualy across a huge area 20:40:43 <frosch123> ore is vulcanic and usually only at hills, isn't it? 20:40:53 <frosch123> no idea about diamonds, are they organic? 20:41:02 <andythenorth> does it make good gameplay though? 20:41:25 <frosch123> how much do they produce? 20:41:41 *** Lakie [~Lakie@91.84.251.149] has quit [Quit: Sleep.] 20:42:21 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Administr@89.246.175.14] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:42:39 <planetmaker> andythenorth: I guess you want the tile size, right? 20:42:45 <planetmaker> *tile number 20:42:47 <andythenorth> frosch123 most mines produce a reasonable amount by default. ~100t depending on type of mine 20:43:00 <frosch123> then you do not need clustering 20:43:13 <andythenorth> frosch123: I agree 20:43:21 <andythenorth> planetmaker: yes, I need the number of tiles 20:43:27 <frosch123> except they exhaust quite fast, while new ones are found nearby 20:43:45 <andythenorth> no exhausting in FIRS, it annoys players :) 20:44:57 <andythenorth> oil wells could cluster 20:45:27 <andythenorth> or I could do them like PBI, spread out, more like an oil field than a single well 20:45:47 <andythenorth> and increase the default oil production level to a sane amount 20:47:46 <planetmaker> new desaster: oil spill 20:48:04 <planetmaker> all food production in the vicinity shuts down 20:48:43 <aditsu> and your rating in every town goes down to minimum 20:48:51 <planetmaker> of course 20:54:00 <planetmaker> frosch123: http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=ReadingPatchVariables <-- isn't "BitSwitch array" a bit confusing for the map size information? 20:54:51 <planetmaker> after all it's not bitswitches but nibbles... 20:55:38 <frosch123> likely, maybe removie "bit switch" and only keep "format" ? 20:55:39 <planetmaker> or is my understanding wrong? 20:55:56 <planetmaker> yeah 21:01:37 <planetmaker> @calc 6*6 21:01:37 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 36 21:01:55 <planetmaker> @calc 11*11 21:01:55 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 121 21:06:57 <Alberth> you cannot compute that yourself? 21:07:41 *** KouDy [~KouDy@83.111.219.33] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:13:03 *** Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has left #openttd [] 21:18:51 *** rhaeder [~quix0r@188.109.255.91] has joined #openttd 21:21:57 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: smatz * r19968 /trunk/src/station_gui.h: -Fix [FS#3876](r19955): the 'list of ships' button opened list of aircraft and vice versa 21:23:32 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: smatz * r19969 /trunk/src/station_gui.cpp: -Change: swap 'list of ships' and 'list of aircraft' buttons in the Station View window 21:29:47 *** DDR [~chatzilla@d99-199-13-89.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd 21:36:14 <b_jonas> uh, why won't my train enter here? 21:37:26 <b_jonas> does a pbs allow a train to pass if it can only reserve a path with sharp (90 deg) turns? 21:39:40 <frosch123> there is a setting to disallow 90° turns for trains 21:42:07 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1D69D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 21:42:18 <b_jonas> I don't want that 21:42:27 <b_jonas> I will want to avoid the sharp turn later 21:42:36 <b_jonas> and will change the layout like that later 21:42:43 <b_jonas> but now I don't understand why won't this train pass the pbs 21:43:06 <b_jonas> it's waiting for free path when it could go to either the depots or the station 21:43:16 <b_jonas> but it may need a sharp turn for the statoin 21:44:05 <b_jonas> let me see what happens if I use the force to proceed button (famous last words) 21:44:16 <b_jonas> still doesn't allow 21:44:20 <b_jonas> does that not work for pbs? 21:46:11 *** Fast2 [~Fast2@p57AF9FE5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 21:46:50 <b_jonas> I don't get it 21:47:00 <b_jonas> oh, I see 21:47:03 <b_jonas> the same mistake again 21:47:27 <b_jonas> when you start openttd, the track button starts with building non-electric trucks 21:47:42 <b_jonas> instead of building the latest tracks possible like in ttd 21:47:45 <b_jonas> sorry 21:48:35 <b_jonas> better now 21:49:42 <b_jonas> okay, now I let all the queued trains pass and then fix the sharp turn 21:54:12 <elho> doesn't the tool these days default to the most used type? 21:54:32 <frosch123> there is an advanced setting: first type, last type, most used 21:54:47 <b_jonas> ah, thanks 21:54:56 <elho> even better :) 21:55:16 <b_jonas> frosch123: I'd like last used, and that does work, but not at program startup 21:55:20 <b_jonas> frosch123: and I keep forgetting that 21:56:37 <frosch123> you always get the last used in game, at start you can only get first type, last type (!= last used), and most used (in game) 21:58:16 <b_jonas> thanks 21:58:47 <b_jonas> okay, changed it to last available 21:59:00 <b_jonas> this should be better 22:06:05 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1D69D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:10:00 *** ecke [~ecke@188.75.128.2] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:10:07 *** Born_Acorn [~bornacorn@yoda.zernebok.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:12:15 *** Born_Acorn [~bornacorn@yoda.zernebok.com] has joined #openttd 22:13:05 *** orudge` [~orudge@c-75-73-67-58.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #openttd 22:13:08 *** mode/#openttd [+o orudge`] by ChanServ 22:13:31 *** orudge` [~orudge@c-75-73-67-58.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [] 22:28:46 *** KritiK [~Maxim@95-25-226-234.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:31:02 <Eddi|zuHause> <frosch123> no idea about diamonds, are they organic? <- diamonds are organic, basically a special stage of coal 22:31:38 <frosch123> coal itself is not organic :) 22:33:06 <Eddi|zuHause> i mean "made from organic material" 22:36:55 <b_jonas> I wonder if this network will bear this many trains without jamming 22:39:08 *** ProfFrink [~proffrink@5e0afdb2.bb.sky.com] has joined #openttd 22:42:56 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: the problem with diamonds is they need very special heat and pressure conditions to be created, but they also need to get to the surface fast, otherwise they dissolve again 22:43:35 *** heffer [~felix@static-87-78-98-150.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: heffer] 22:44:45 *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@5e002193.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:44:45 *** ProfFrink is now known as Prof_Frink 22:44:50 *** Vaxy-DE [~admin@DSL01.83.171.153.91.ip-pool.NEFkom.net] has quit [] 22:45:47 *** aditsu [~aditsu@n1164983209.netvigator.com] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [SeaMonkey 2.0.5/20100504124411]] 22:54:25 *** theholyduck [~holyduck@77.106.155.17] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:55:22 <planetmaker> @calc 2**36 22:55:22 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 68719476736 22:55:32 <planetmaker> @calc 2**6 * 2**6 22:55:32 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 4096 22:55:49 <planetmaker> @calc 2**12 22:55:49 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 4096 22:56:42 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590f793e.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:58:28 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 2**6**6 22:58:28 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: Error: The answer exceeded 1.79769313486e+308 or so. 22:58:36 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc (2**6)**6 22:58:36 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 68719476736 23:02:06 *** ^Spike^ [~spike@d200003.upc-d.chello.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:06:19 <b_jonas> there are _two_ tubular bridges? 23:06:27 <b_jonas> was that so even in openttd? 23:06:28 <peter1138> # TUBULAR BELLS! 23:06:32 <b_jonas> I thought there's only one 23:06:51 <Eddi|zuHause> # *GOOOONG!* 23:06:58 <planetmaker> andythenorth: http://paste.openttd.org/225921 <-- should give you the map size in tiles 23:07:03 <planetmaker> arg. wait 23:09:42 <planetmaker> http://paste.openttd.org/225922 <-- better 23:09:53 <planetmaker> though I haven't quite tested it, it should work 23:11:29 *** theholyduck [~holyduck@ip-129-138-106-77.eidsiva.net] has joined #openttd 23:15:53 <Wolf01> 'night 23:15:57 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host226-233-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] 23:23:01 <planetmaker> @calc 2048**2 23:23:01 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 4194304 23:23:18 <planetmaker> @base 10 16 4194304 23:23:18 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 400000 23:25:13 *** Devroush [~dennis@94-225-72-20.access.telenet.be] has quit [] 23:30:40 <pugi> @log 2 4194304 23:30:46 <pugi> :( 23:35:47 <planetmaker> @calc help log 23:35:47 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: Error: unexpected EOF while parsing (<string>, line 1) 23:35:57 <planetmaker> @calc log 2 4096 23:35:57 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: Error: invalid syntax (<string>, line 1) 23:36:02 <planetmaker> @calc log 4096 23:36:03 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: Error: unexpected EOF while parsing (<string>, line 1) 23:36:17 <planetmaker> @calc log(2,4096) 23:36:17 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 0.0833333333333 23:36:28 <planetmaker> @calc log(4096,2) 23:36:28 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 12 23:36:32 <planetmaker> ^ 23:36:59 *** b_jonas [~x@dsl51B66BC6.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:37:42 <PeterT> oh, supybot <3 23:38:04 *** Dreamxtreme [Dreamxtrem@client-86-31-243-12.oxfd.adsl.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Never look down on someone unless you're helping them up.] 23:40:27 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 1/log(2,4096) 23:40:27 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 12.0 23:42:13 *** Dreamxtreme [Dreamxtrem@client-86-31-243-12.oxfd.adsl.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 23:54:30 *** KenjiE20 [~KenjiE20@92.9.250.146] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 23:54:42 *** fonsinchen [~fonsinche@brln-4dbc1697.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 23:57:43 *** Illegal_Alien [~Illegal_A@ip4da39612.direct-adsl.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]