Log for #openttd on 13th June 2010:
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00:40:43  <OwenS> <-- Is it just me... or are NASA being just a liiitle silly there? :p
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01:16:00  <elho> lol
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01:41:29  <SpComb> they can afford ot...
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08:03:02  <andythenorth> morning
08:03:11  <Alberth> good morning
08:04:46  <Alberth> hehe, 0.6.3 fails to compile with my newer compiler :)
08:08:18  * andythenorth wonders when FIRS will get to rev 1K
08:09:20  <Alberth> in about 100 changes :)
08:11:23  <Alberth> oh, you even have a road map
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08:12:41  <frosch123> morning andy, morning albert :)
08:13:51  <Alberth> morning, happy frosch123
08:18:47  <frosch123> hmm, let me guess, SmallMap::Insert is unuset yet :p
08:21:58  <Alberth> hmm, a different map than I was thinking about :)
08:25:26  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: why? does it have a fatal bug? :p
08:25:37  <frosch123> it does not even compile :p
08:25:42  <frosch123> when used
08:25:56  <frosch123> SmallPair misses a matching new operator
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08:57:16  <planetmaker> good morning
08:58:31  <planetmaker> I'd like to draw your attention to one of the most important forum threads ;-)
09:00:27  <Mazur> Mood gorning.
09:01:56  <frosch123> euh, you are posting how to reach you on the forums?
09:02:38  <frosch123> what if 1000 drunken teenagers turn up?
09:02:41  <frosch123> :p
09:04:39  <planetmaker> then we're screwed
09:05:00  <planetmaker> hm...
09:05:13  <planetmaker> I'm not happy with it, I have to admit
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09:06:04  <planetmaker> hm. I guess I should take direct address out
09:09:00  <planetmaker> done
09:13:00  <frosch123> :)
09:13:46  <planetmaker> I do assume right that you'll stay here over night, right?
09:14:17  <planetmaker> as will Eddi|zuHause I assume?
09:14:31  <planetmaker> and SmatZ and Zuu(?)
09:15:04  <planetmaker> The Dutchies should then decide whether they drive back or not - or stay at michi_cc's place
09:15:52  <frosch123> well, I have three options: buy a sleeping bag, rent a hotel room, sleep at relatives (which i am going to do from friday->saturday, but i do not want to turn up there somewhen saturday night)
09:16:21  <planetmaker> well. I have one sleeping bag here. First come first serve ;-)
09:19:54  <planetmaker> so, if you say now "me!" you can use mine :-)
09:20:31  <frosch123> ok, me!
09:20:35  <frosch123> :)
09:21:00  <planetmaker> done :-)
09:21:29  <Mazur> If I were coming, I'd take the hotel.
09:21:55  <planetmaker> as a bonus you also get my comfy self-inflating large mattrace :-)
09:22:01  <planetmaker> -t
09:22:13  <Mazur> s/ce/ss/
09:22:33  <Eddi|zuHause> well, staying and bringing a sleeping bag isn't a problem. i'm unsure as to the logistics of coming and going...
09:23:45  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: as long as the trains go, there's a way to the station :-)
09:23:56  <planetmaker> Don't worry about getting up early :-)
09:24:03  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, but trains are awfully expensive...
09:24:16  <planetmaker> I've seen friends leaving at 6:30h after we went to bed at 4:30h
09:24:50  <planetmaker> (for similar reasons as you have to leave)
09:25:58  <Terkhen> good morning
09:26:53  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: you'd also get a car for ~60€
09:27:20  <planetmaker> (and maybe 30€ fuel from Halle and back)
09:27:52  <planetmaker> but that's not really that cheap either
09:28:17  <planetmaker> good morning Therken
09:28:42  <planetmaker> hm... autocompletion on "morning" would have given both, a strange highlight and a funny sentence ;-)
09:29:28  <Eddi|zuHause> plenty of "m" people here ;)
09:30:01  <Eddi|zuHause> but you faild autocompleting the actual nick :p
09:34:40  <planetmaker> yes, I typed then out of surprise completely manually ;-)
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09:41:45  <Terkhen> :P
09:42:10  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r19970 /trunk/src/core/smallmap_type.hpp: -Fix (r14742): SmallMap::Insert() did not compile. Construct new items like operator[].
09:44:06  <Eddi|zuHause> a compile error existing for >5000 revisions, is that a record? :)
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09:49:17  <planetmaker> eh? How did we produce the binaries then?
09:49:30  <planetmaker> Or wasn't it used and just optimized away?
09:50:01  <Eddi|zuHause> it's templated code, these aren't processed when they are not used
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09:57:13  <planetmaker> aye
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11:12:32  <__ln__>
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11:15:51  <planetmaker> lol
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11:25:19  <frosch123> :p
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12:08:48  <VVG> Mine ottd 19967 crashes, when loading coop games PGS164 and prozone12 :(
12:10:59  <planetmaker> VVG: you probably have the wrong ISR version
12:11:04  <planetmaker> though #164... dunno
12:11:26  <planetmaker> what does the crash.log look like (use
12:12:11  <VVG> what isr version is right? i have full otdd coop pack in data folder
12:12:34  <Ammler> you have right version, please paste your error
12:13:51  <VVG>
12:14:17  <VVG> that's for 164
12:15:13  <frosch123> that assertion is quite new
12:15:21  <SmatZ> and it doesn't fail for me
12:15:23  <planetmaker> yeah
12:15:26  <planetmaker> doesn't fail for me
12:15:28  <frosch123> interesting that it is trigered by certain savegames
12:16:31  <SmatZ> frosch123: you can reproduce it?
12:16:39  <frosch123> did not try
12:16:43  <SmatZ> :(
12:17:05  <planetmaker> VVG: please try to get the correct newgrfs from the ingame newgrf dialog -> check online content
12:17:10  <planetmaker> does it still crash then?
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12:17:40  <VVG> well, i don't what grfs are correct, since i can check them only ingame
12:18:03  <planetmaker> yes, that's why I asked to check the online content from ingame newgrf window
12:18:10  <SmatZ> VVG: in your paste, Tick 47152: game loaded
12:18:12  <planetmaker> It *should* try to get the correct ones from bananas
12:18:18  <SmatZ> there are few grfs listed as "compatible"
12:18:25  <SmatZ> try to get their new version
12:18:52  <planetmaker> still it's a peculiar assertion for a newgrf interference IMHO
12:19:09  <SmatZ> true
12:19:10  <planetmaker> (if it's one)
12:20:06  <SmatZ> hmm
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12:21:08  <SmatZ> something seems to be broken
12:21:17  <SmatZ> I get "Missing NewGRFs have been disabled" message
12:21:27  <SmatZ> but no missing GRF is listed in Gamelog nor in NewGRF window
12:21:28  <planetmaker> really? It loads fine here
12:21:34  <planetmaker> without erros
12:21:37  <planetmaker> *errors
12:21:38  <SmatZ> for a different savegame
12:21:39  <SmatZ> :)
12:21:52  <VVG> i selected upgrades and also downloaded all avaible grfs, still the same, i'll try clean docs folder now
12:22:21  <planetmaker> oh :-)
12:22:35  <planetmaker> VVG: not needed
12:23:32  <VVG> already did it, it now loads
12:23:58  <planetmaker> hm. Did you delete or just rename?
12:24:20  <VVG> rename, now it new clean default forlder with original ttd grfs
12:25:07  <planetmaker> then you'd have many missing newgrfs
12:25:28  <Ammler> the problem might be, as soon as you don't have the matching newgrf (md5), the compatible grf is loaded randomly, could be older
12:25:30  <planetmaker> interesting for us would be: what's different in your (broken) setup from ours
12:25:31  <VVG> atleast now i can check grf window to see what i miss
12:26:00  <planetmaker> Ammler: they are older ones. From our grfpack
12:26:55  <VVG> 164 uses jptrains2 beta 8 grf
12:26:56  <Ammler> you mean, he loaded "compatible" grfs from our pack instead the matching bananas grfs?
12:27:23  <SmatZ> [14:21:15] <SmatZ> something seems to be broken <== and I can't reproduce it anymore :-/
12:27:46  <planetmaker> Ammler: yes
12:27:58  <planetmaker> when there's no bananas grf present it loads *some* compatible one
12:28:07  <planetmaker> not the matching bananas grf
12:28:18  <Ammler> yes, which are older and mostly incompatible :-)
12:28:30  <planetmaker> SmatZ: we really need newgrf versions :-)
12:28:31  <Ammler> we need to release 8.0 :-P
12:28:33  <planetmaker> like AIs do
12:28:46  <planetmaker> And we need to release OpenTTDcoop grfpack 8.0, yes
12:28:53  <Ammler> :-D
12:29:12  <planetmaker> and grf version 8.0, too :-P
12:29:32  <Ammler> (or nml 1.0) :-P
12:29:45  <planetmaker> grf version has nothing to do with nml version
12:29:59  <Ammler> I thought, you speak about nfo
12:30:10  <planetmaker> nope. grf specs.
12:30:18  <Ammler> so you mean nfo :-P
12:30:32  <Eddi|zuHause> we need the new saveload gui that allows you to download grfs before loading the savegame
12:30:44  <planetmaker> they're independent of nfo. NFO is just the assembler of grf language
12:30:48  <planetmaker> Ammler: nope :-)
12:31:04  <planetmaker> it's like machine code to assembler :-)
12:31:18  <VVG> moved all grfs i have back and now it crashes again :(
12:31:20  <planetmaker> machine code = what OpenTTD reads, assembler = nfo
12:31:43  <planetmaker> VVG: can you get us a dir listing of your grfs you have, including file modification time?
12:31:51  <Ammler> VVG: check the log, does it still load "compatible" grfs?
12:31:54  <planetmaker> both in the data and the contentdownload folders
12:32:05  <planetmaker> and yes, what Ammler tells.
12:32:16  <planetmaker> check the (new) crash.log
12:32:43  <planetmaker>      Compatible NewGRF loaded: GRF ID 52453400, checksum 5983783733079BB1978B69668064C0EC, filename: japanese_buildings-2.0\jpbuild2w.grf <-- it shouldn't have lines like this.
12:33:20  <VVG> yup, three lines in crash.log, jptrains, buildings and stations
12:33:45  <VVG> trains and stations from grf pack, buildings from bananas
12:34:34  <Ammler> does it crash right after load?
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12:35:02  <VVG> while loading, not a chance to get ingame
12:35:18  <VVG> it seems bananas version of jpbuildings is at fault, without it loads
12:35:22  <VVG> with it it crashes
12:36:02  <planetmaker> VVG: where did you get the bananas version? From the download from the main screen?
12:36:17  <VVG> yep
12:36:20  <planetmaker> Did you try to get the correct version from ingame from when the save game loaded?
12:36:29  <planetmaker> That might give you the needed, correct version
12:36:30  <VVG> no
12:36:39  <VVG> it can?
12:36:39  <Ammler> the problem is you can't download old versions from bananas
12:36:41  <planetmaker> the current bananas version is already newer (I think)
12:36:52  <glx> Ammler: you can, but not from main menu
12:37:06  <planetmaker> glx: but how, if the game crashes when you load the savegame?
12:37:31  <glx> wait for new saveload gui maybe
12:37:35  <planetmaker> :-D
12:37:38  <Ammler> you could from here:
12:37:50  <Ammler> but that might not be an official way :-)
12:38:06  <glx> but when it doesn't crash you can get old grfs from ingame newgrf menu :)
12:38:17  <VVG> whoa, would have never guessed it can get older version, and from ingame screen
12:38:20  <Ammler> quite useless, as then you don't need :-)
12:38:22  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but he forgot to do that
12:38:23  <VVG> now it works fine
12:39:42  <VVG> works like a charm now! thanks
12:39:52  <Ammler> how you solved?
12:40:23  <Eddi|zuHause> now we need a reproduceable way in order to fortify the assert against bad grfs
12:40:29  <VVG> removed latest jpbuildings grf i downloaded from bananes from main menu, and got older version from ingame from bananas
12:42:56  <Ammler> well, if a grf crashes openttd, it should change the ID
12:43:21  <b_jonas> is it normal if I raise lots of water just so that a city has area to grow?
12:44:01  <andythenorth> YES
12:44:02  <andythenorth> oops
12:44:03  <andythenorth> yes
12:44:20  <andythenorth> I create new land often to allow coastal cities to expand
12:44:38  <b_jonas> great
12:46:35  <planetmaker> b_jonas: look at the Netherlands ;-)
12:47:04  <planetmaker> andythenorth: did you see my map size patch?
12:47:09  <b_jonas> heh
12:47:59  <andythenorth> not yet
12:48:40  <andythenorth> planetmaker: where is the patch?
12:49:16  <planetmaker> in your issue about clustering
12:49:22  <planetmaker> I extended that issue a bit ;-)
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12:54:42  <VVG> ottd doesn't crash, if i try only witn newer versions of japanese set, i got from bananas, but it does if i have all my grfs avaible for it ;(
12:55:43  <Ammler> because it loads a random version, if you don't have the matching version.
12:58:13  <b_jonas> I don't get it. these trains keep complaining that they're lost, but they're not. they're just waiting for one another at a signal.
12:59:25  <valhallasw> that's how 'lost' is defined
12:59:42  <valhallasw> not getting at the next order within a certain time period
12:59:45  <planetmaker> valhallasw: nope
12:59:58  <planetmaker> lost = cannot find path to destination
13:00:23  <valhallasw> I must be getting old
13:00:25  <planetmaker> that's not linked to time needed to get there, but only to path finding
13:00:37  <valhallasw> because I'm fairly sure it was that way
13:00:47  <b_jonas> maybe they don't like that they can't pass a presignal because the only exit is closed
13:00:51  <peter1138> hmm, what cool features was i working on?
13:01:03  <planetmaker> road types?
13:01:13  <andythenorth> don't do road types yet :P
13:01:14  <b_jonas> road types? like what?
13:01:23  <andythenorth> I don't have time for all the fun that entails :|
13:01:28  <planetmaker> newObjects?
13:01:40  <peter1138> nah, road types needs more conceptual though than rail types
13:01:44  <andythenorth> newgrf airports?
13:01:52  <planetmaker> that's yexo's baby
13:01:55  <andythenorth> industry 'field' tiles?
13:02:00  <andythenorth> that's frosch's baby
13:02:03  <planetmaker> ;-)
13:02:06  <andythenorth> my baby is...
13:02:08  <planetmaker> you stole my words!
13:02:28  <andythenorth> my baby is often awake at 2am
13:02:39  <planetmaker> he :-P
13:03:19  <peter1138> how is babby formed?
13:03:37  <andythenorth> using a special kind of C++
13:03:51  <planetmaker> peter1138: maybe wrap-around maps?
13:04:19  <b_jonas> planetmaker: nah, would be confusing humanly
13:04:22  <frosch123> multi-threaded tileloop for clear land?
13:04:46  <planetmaker> hm?
13:04:51  <frosch123> hmm, though there is no clear land, only trees :p
13:05:18  <andythenorth> something cool to do with industries?
13:05:24  <andythenorth> water types?
13:05:35  <planetmaker> peter1138: adding newgrf (minor) versions?
13:05:43  <andythenorth> that would be most useful
13:05:44  <planetmaker> adding newgrf version8 basically?
13:05:45  <peter1138> rivers, canals and ocean isn't enough? heh
13:05:55  <andythenorth> releasing FIRS 0.2 is going to be tricky
13:05:58  <planetmaker> adding rivers to the mapgenerator?
13:06:05  <peter1138> hah
13:06:07  <planetmaker> adding living rivers?
13:06:36  <andythenorth> FIRS 0.2 is epically *not* savegame compatible.  But if I bump the that good for Bananas?
13:06:38  <VVG> Is there some special setting for generationg oil rigs? Every new game i make have no oil rigs :(
13:06:47  <planetmaker> andythenorth: it's ok with bananas
13:06:49  <andythenorth> VVG: only built after a certain date
13:06:53  <VVG> oh
13:06:53  <Ammler> bananas doesn't care
13:07:04  <andythenorth> but then there are two entries for FIRS?
13:07:08  <planetmaker> nope
13:07:09  <VVG> wait, i have starting date 2100
13:07:15  <planetmaker> you just update as usual
13:07:20  <andythenorth> and break my save game?
13:07:36  <planetmaker> how so? Savegames store the md5sum
13:07:46  <planetmaker> but then you cannot update of course
13:07:57  <andythenorth> so I update, then can't play my save game anymore?
13:08:08  <planetmaker> but on bananas you shouldn't upload incompatible stuff with the same grfID. VERY bad
13:08:11  <andythenorth> VVG not sure.  Got enough water on the map?
13:08:19  <planetmaker> andythenorth: you can. But with the old version
13:08:37  <Ammler> bananas doesn't remove old version on update
13:08:49  <planetmaker> after all it's _in_compatible. So an update is not wanted
13:09:04  <b_jonas> VVG: also, do you have enough water near the edge of map? I think oil rigs are only generated there
13:09:05  <planetmaker> If it's compatible, you don't need to bump the grfID.
13:09:24  <b_jonas> VVG: and maybe they don't get generated at start because few people start games with starting date 2100
13:09:31  <andythenorth> b_jonas: oil rigs are generated anywhere, but there has to be enough clear space around them
13:09:43  <VVG> yep, more than enough,
13:09:52  <Ammler> how does a industry set get incompatible?
13:09:54  <planetmaker> andythenorth: nope, they are somewhere near the border IIRC
13:10:05  <andythenorth> nope
13:10:07  <VVG> well, i gave up and tried with firs, now it generated enough of oil rigs.
13:10:09  <planetmaker> Ammler: undefining an industy, changing layouts
13:10:17  <Eddi|zuHause> VVG: banks and oil rigs won't be generated on game start, but they have increased chance to appear ingame
13:10:20  <Ammler> other layout should hurt
13:10:25  <planetmaker> Ammler: also re-defining parameters
13:10:36  <Ammler> isn't that all in the save
13:10:40  <andythenorth> VVG: FIRS :)
13:11:02  <VVG> what i wanted to check, is oil rigs stations air and water vehicles list icons, they are switched, plane icon opens water vehicles list and the other way around
13:11:11  <andythenorth> Ammler: changing accepted / produced cargos, changing layouts, changing tiles / graphics signficantly
13:11:19  <Eddi|zuHause> VVG: you can make a fairly simple newgrf to change the appearance chances, though
13:11:21  <planetmaker> VVG: fixed in newer ones
13:11:21  <VVG> that's 19967 and first 0.1.2
13:11:27  <andythenorth> VVG that just got fixed by Smatz last night I think
13:11:37  <VVG> so fast
13:11:43  <Ammler> andythenorth: that sounds like some glitches but not crashing openttd
13:12:01  <andythenorth> changing strings
13:12:08  <Ammler> dunno, if that is worth a version dump
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13:12:16  <andythenorth> changing strings is a regular source of crashing ottd
13:12:17  <planetmaker> Better bump it than not bump it.
13:12:34  <andythenorth> the rest won't crash ottd, but will just ruin a save game
13:12:46  <planetmaker> which is a good reason for a bump.
13:12:58  <planetmaker> After all 'compatible' is more than 'don't crash'
13:13:20  <planetmaker> it's more like "you can continue to play, but have _less_ glitches.
13:13:59  <planetmaker> andythenorth: if you feel like maintaining the grfID in trunk, but making a new one for releases: create a branch ;-)
13:14:08  <andythenorth> hmm
13:14:13  <andythenorth> sounds like overhead
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13:14:16  <planetmaker> but that will give Ammler headaches ;-)
13:14:23  <planetmaker> and me also.
13:14:47  <planetmaker> as it's likely to somewhat break both, Makefile and CompileFarm
13:15:19  <Ammler> well, that is something for >1.0
13:16:30  <Ammler> or if you ever plan to backport a fix
13:20:05  <VVG> btw, is there a nice graph avaible for FIRS, like for ECS vectors, which shows what cargo goes where?
13:20:47  <planetmaker> hehe @ Ammler :-)
13:21:00  <planetmaker> Well, with FIRS it actually would - at some stage - even make sense
13:21:10  <planetmaker> IF minor versions would be supported
13:21:23  <planetmaker> same with 2cctrainset and alike
13:22:51  <planetmaker> andythenorth: does the map size thing give you what you need for the action2s?
13:27:56  <andythenorth> planetmaker: haven't had time to try it yet!  interruptions :)
13:28:42  <andythenorth> VVG: there's no up-to-date chart, but there is a list:
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13:36:09  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... how would i go and find out the coordinates of the current viewport?
13:37:06  <Alberth> what coordinates at what viewport?
13:37:33  <Eddi|zuHause> main viewport, relative to complete game map
13:37:56  <Alberth> find the main viewport window
13:39:00  <Alberth> the smallmap 'center' button should have the details
13:40:06  <Alberth> the viewport itself has a top-left coordinate, and you know the size and scaling. From that you can compute the center at the map
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13:40:54  <frosch123> maybe take a look at the copy&paste of the extra viewport
13:45:44  <Eddi|zuHause> alright, i'll check those
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14:04:50  <b_jonas> wow, a third tubular bridge
14:06:00  <Zuu> Hmm, do anyone know if accept debit VISAs as a) payment method without registrating  b) as identification?
14:06:11  <planetmaker> Zuu: yes and yes
14:06:16  <Zuu> Oh, good.
14:06:25  <planetmaker> I'm not 100% sure about a), but I think so
14:06:51  <Zuu> They fooled me to register, and then when I tried to register for debit payment they wanted my german bank account number which is clearly not the same as debit visa.
14:06:54  <planetmaker> btw: I just found out now, that I wouldn't have gotten the hotel without credit card ;-)
14:07:13  <Zuu> Okay
14:07:24  <Zuu> I'll probably get one sooner than later.
14:08:12  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r19971 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_config.cpp newgrf_config.h saveload/afterload.cpp): -Codechange: Make IsGoodGRFConfigList() operate on any given GRFConfig and move the GameLog operations directly to AfterLoad().
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14:10:23  <planetmaker> Zuu: definitely yes also to a)
14:11:44  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r19972 /trunk/src/ (5 files): -Change: Use the md5sum from the previous save of the game for BaNaNaS instead of the initial (when the grf was added) md5sum from the gamelog. Neither method is 'better', but this way it is independent from the gamelog.
14:12:11  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r19973 /trunk/src/ (27 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: Add another procedure to chunk handlers for checking savegames (empty for now).
14:12:34  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r19974 /trunk/src/saveload/saveload.cpp: -Add: SlSkipArray() to skip arrays and sparse arrays in savegames.
14:13:35  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r19975 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 2 dirs): -Add: SL_LOAD_CHECK mode for partial reading of savegames.
14:14:00  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r19976 /trunk/src/ (fios.h fios_gui.cpp saveload/map_sl.cpp): -Add: Read mapsize during SL_LOAD_CHECK.
14:14:32  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r19977 /trunk/src/ (fios.h fios_gui.cpp saveload/misc_sl.cpp): -Add: Read current date during SL_LOAD_CHECK.
14:14:33  <planetmaker> <3 @ frosch's changes and where it goes :-)
14:14:49  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r19978 /trunk/src/ (fios.h fios_gui.cpp settings.cpp): -Add: Read settings during SL_LOAD_CHECK.
14:15:24  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r19979 /trunk/src/ (company_base.h company_cmd.cpp saveload/company_sl.cpp): -Codechange: Separate static loadable fields from Company into separate struct.
14:15:49  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r19980 /trunk/src/ (fios.h fios_gui.cpp lang/english.txt saveload/company_sl.cpp): -Add: Load some general data from savegames on SL_LOAD_CHECK.
14:16:11  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r19981 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 2 dirs): -Add: Read NewGRF configuration during SL_LOAD_CHECK.
14:16:39  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r19982 /trunk/src/fios_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Shuffle some widget positions in saveload GUIs.
14:17:13  <planetmaker> 18 more to go :-)
14:17:14  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r19983 /trunk/src/fios_gui.cpp: -Add: Separate nested widget array for load heightmap GUI.
14:17:17  <b_jonas> this doesn't seem like good business. I've put single buses in small towns just so those towns grow, and when they've grown enough, the AI players put airports there.
14:17:19  <planetmaker> 17 to go ;-)
14:17:26  <b_jonas> but then, I could buy the AIs
14:17:39  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r19984 /trunk/src/ (fios.h fios_gui.cpp lang/english.txt): -Feature: Show some savegame details when selecting items in saveload GUIs.
14:17:46  <b_jonas> that's just not fun though
14:17:47  <planetmaker> b_jonas: if money is no issue anymore, just build the full service
14:17:48  <frosch123> sorry, wrong button :p
14:17:52  <b_jonas> good to know I have the power
14:18:04  <b_jonas> planetmaker: nah, I don't want lots of trains because I can't manage them
14:18:11  <planetmaker> wrong button?
14:18:22  <b_jonas> I don't have anything against unprofitable trains, but too many trains just make the game harder to play
14:18:47  <planetmaker> b_jonas: you know shared orders and train groups?
14:18:56  <planetmaker> and autorenew and autoreplace?
14:19:26  <planetmaker> If orders are well-made you just set them once and that's it. Maybe add a few more trains with the same orders later by cloning existing ones
14:19:28  <b_jonas> sure
14:19:41  <b_jonas> train groups and stuff like that make many trains on a single line easy to manage
14:19:44  <b_jonas> and I am doing that
14:20:00  <b_jonas> but many lines for small towns are not easy
14:20:18  <planetmaker> b_jonas: you can group many small towns in one group
14:20:29  <planetmaker> when they have a common station they go to.
14:20:43  <planetmaker> selecting then a train for a specific town can be done via the station of the small town
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14:22:13  <planetmaker> like a<->M, b<->M, c<->M (possibly with transfer). And d<->N, e<->N, f<->N (also with transfer to big station N) and then long-distance trains M<->N
14:22:21  <planetmaker> quite easy that way
14:22:53  * planetmaker compiles OpenTTD r19984 :-)
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14:32:44  <Zuu> Is the area next to Berlin Hbf walkable? or do one need to get into downtown?
14:33:46  <Eddi|zuHause> Berlin Hbf is directly next to the government buildings (Kanzleramt, Reichstag, etc.)
14:34:24  <Zuu> Okay
14:34:24  <Eddi|zuHause> it's basically in the city centre
14:34:48  <planetmaker> frosch123: the new load gui is awesome :-)
14:35:02  <planetmaker> Especially also that OpenTTD now doesn't load broken savegames anymore
14:35:04  <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: depends on where you actually want to go ;)
14:35:10  <planetmaker> thus avoiding useless crashes
14:35:18  <frosch123> planetmaker: you can still load them via console :)
14:35:20  <frosch123> or command line
14:35:25  <planetmaker> he :-)
14:36:05  <frosch123> but yes, ammler can now code his dedicated-server-load-savegame-but-only-after-bananas-download patch :p
14:36:24  <Zuu> Is the 2,10 euro city mobile ticket good money on bahn?
14:36:26  <planetmaker> the one point IMHO where the GUI could be improved is IMHO though the "check newgrf" and "load" buttons which are not well distinguishable from the panel
14:36:27  <Ammler> hehe
14:36:41  <Ammler> that could be r20000
14:36:45  <planetmaker> Zuu: yes. As it's return. Which would otherwise be 2,8o€ ;-)
14:36:57  <Zuu> Ok
14:37:23  <Zuu> But I might skip it as it gives me the flexibility to walk around if I want.
14:38:06  <planetmaker> yes. But it's not the best walking in BS from the main station
14:38:06  <Zuu> Can you pay by cash on local transport?
14:38:14  <Zuu> Oh, ok
14:38:24  <planetmaker> the ticket machines should accept cash. Or the bus driver does
14:38:43  <Ammler> Mark
14:38:49  <Zuu> ok, I've taken the included ticket then.
14:38:53  <Zuu> "included"
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14:41:37  <__ln__> swedish kronor are not accepted
14:42:16  <planetmaker> :-) Not quite
14:42:44  <Zuu> heh, would like to pay with swedish kronor directly eg. 1 sek = 1 euro. :-)
14:43:29  <planetmaker> :-P
14:43:49  <Zuu> Ended up not taking the city ticket as you can't use the online-ticket on the bus according to
14:44:13  <Zuu> But good then I have all tickets now so, don't change the date please :-D
14:44:18  <planetmaker> eh?
14:44:49  <planetmaker> The city ticket should be valid in all local public transport here
14:45:15  <planetmaker> well, but might be sensible... maybe we want more travel on Sunday ;-)
14:46:23  <Zuu> Im off now, got to celibrate my birth day a bit more. :-)
14:46:25  <__ln__> the Hbf is on the British sector if i read the map correctly
14:47:28  <planetmaker> oh :-) Happy birthday then :-)
14:47:38  <Zuu> hehe thanks :-)
14:47:46  <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: it's directly behind the border
14:47:49  <__ln__> Zuu: are you going to berlin by train or plane?
14:47:57  <Zuu> by (night) train
14:48:02  <__ln__> ok
14:48:08  <Zuu> It is probably going on a ferry.
14:48:25  <Zuu> so, on a train, on a ferry.
14:48:56  <__ln__> Zuu: and the same route back?
14:49:02  <Eddi|zuHause> MalmÞ-Rostock?
14:49:20  <Eddi|zuHause> or is it Malmö?
14:49:21  <Zuu> I could take the night train to hannover, but that would arrive at 4 am. I'll be at 6 am in Berlin which is a bit more okay. :-)
14:49:24  <__ln__> Malmö
14:49:25  <Zuu> Malmö
14:49:40  <Eddi|zuHause> i can never tell with you weird nordic people ;)
14:49:59  <Zuu> Not sure where in germany it arrives but it is not going on the ship exactly in Malmö. Probably Trelleborg.
14:50:20  <Zuu> Going back is via land/brige.
14:50:33  <Zuu> eg. day-train to copenhagen.
14:50:53  <__ln__> hannover-hamburg-copenhagen?
14:50:56  <Zuu> yep
14:51:00  <Zuu> and then local train.
14:51:29  <Eddi|zuHause> and hamburg-copenhagen doesn't go via ferry in fehmarn?
14:52:03  <Zuu> possible, it's not my problem. :-)
14:52:10  <planetmaker> :-) not going back explains the unavailability of the city ticket :-)
14:52:54  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r19985 /trunk/src/saveload/company_sl.cpp: -Fix (r19980): Loading preview data from old savegames failed indeterministically due to non-zeroed memory allocation. Thanks smatz.
14:54:57  * SpComb wonders what happens after someone goes and commits r19999
14:55:47  <Zuu> Then we'll get a week long freeze :-)
14:58:27  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r19986 /trunk/src/newgrf_gui.cpp: -Fix (r19841): One could add and remove Grfs from the list via doubleclicking even if editing the list is not allowed.
14:59:11  <frosch123> SpComb: maybe we start the bbq and watch wt3 doing the rest :p
15:00:28  <SpComb> oh
15:02:01  <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: the next commit will be 20001 then ;)
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15:04:51  <__ln__> is there some interesting city between BS and Berlin at which one should stop for a while?
15:05:02  <frosch123> is there a city at all?
15:05:08  <__ln__> a town then
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15:12:13  <frosch123> i guess you have to either go more southish or northish
15:13:35  <frosch123> or stay around braunschweig, watch wolfenbuttel, old salzgitter steel mill and such
15:13:49  <__ln__> there's Magdeburg, but is it interesting?
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15:14:16  <Darko> hi all
15:14:27  <Eddi|zuHause> other than the cathedral, there's not much interesting in magdeburg...
15:14:32  <frosch123> no idea, i never was there. only know it via otto von guericke
15:15:22  <frosch123> if you want to go east, you are likely better of with leipzig
15:15:32  <frosch123> eddi might know more details
15:15:47  <Eddi|zuHause> that's not exactly "between" BS and Berlin ;)
15:16:01  <frosch123> if you ignore north-south :p
15:16:20  <Eddi|zuHause> it's almost directly south of berlin
15:16:43  <frosch123> no, that is dresden
15:16:45  <__ln__> indeed not :)  and since my time is limited, maybe i'll just go directly to berlin and see leipzig and dresden some other time
15:16:47  <Darko> it had the Games Convention salon here
15:18:20  <__ln__> trying to see too much in too little time is not often the best choice
15:18:58  <Eddi|zuHause> the "problem" with Magdeburg is that basically the whole city was destroyed in the war
15:19:24  <Eddi|zuHause> almost no building except the cathedral was unharmed...
15:19:39  <Eddi|zuHause> and then it was rebuilt in "socialistic" style
15:19:50  <Eddi|zuHause> which doesn't have any interesting details...
15:21:27  <__ln__> except the socialistic style itself
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15:22:24  <planetmaker> [17:14]	<Eddi|zuHause>	other than the cathedral, there's not much interesting in magdeburg... <-- the Hundertwasser building and the Otto v. Guericke statue :-)
15:22:53  <Eddi|zuHause> hundertwasser? i would've thought that was after the war...
15:23:16  <Eddi|zuHause> is he really that old yet?
15:23:32  <planetmaker> it might (will?) be newer. But it's worth a look
15:23:41  <planetmaker> so it's interesting :-)
15:23:44  <SmatZ> planetmaker: what is the average price per km with DB? (or whatever else transport company)
15:24:04  <planetmaker> SmatZ: no idea really. It's cheaper per km the further you go actually
15:24:16  <SmatZ> ok :)
15:24:20  <Eddi|zuHause> it tends to be more expensive than fuel...
15:24:35  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: not quite. But about the same
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15:25:58  <planetmaker> SmatZ: you can read German:
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15:28:40  <planetmaker> according to that: random settings for ICE connections and a ~30% sub-linear increase for IC/EC connections
15:28:55  <planetmaker> (30% for 600km relative to the short connections)
15:29:12  <planetmaker> 14ct per kilometer for that
15:29:17  <SmatZ> :(
15:29:39  <SmatZ> it seems the only connection I could find from Prague is via Berlin
15:29:48  <SmatZ> ~600km in total
15:30:23  <Eddi|zuHause> not via Leipzig?
15:30:35  <__ln__> SmatZ:
15:31:33  <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause: nope, at least not on that Saturday
15:32:09  <planetmaker> SmatZ: I get a connection on that Saturday from Praha to Braunschweig via Berlin in 6:30h
15:32:14  <planetmaker> for 39€ (maybe)
15:32:25  <Eddi|zuHause> if i book now, it's 38€ (with return next day, limited to specific train) or 69€ (with return next day, unlimited)
15:32:31  <planetmaker> starting either 6:30am or 8:30am
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15:32:36  <SmatZ> planetmaker: I couldn't find the price, but I suppose that's the same connection :)
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15:33:27  <planetmaker> normal price is 140€ though ;-)
15:33:34  <SmatZ> :D
15:33:43  <planetmaker> 39€ is the "Sparpreis" without refund, re-booking etc pp
15:35:23  <planetmaker> return price might be like 110€ for the cheapest connection - provided it can still be booked
15:35:35  <Eddi|zuHause> using only local trains is 58,60€
15:35:44  <planetmaker> and 205€ for normal fare
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15:36:36  <SmatZ> ok, thanks for help :)
15:36:56  <planetmaker> so going by train after all? :-)
15:37:08  <SmatZ> nope :-p
15:37:11  <planetmaker> :-D
15:37:40  <planetmaker> it's still 2h longer than car indeed :-)
15:37:45  <SmatZ> ~500km by car is <100€
15:38:01  <SmatZ> and maybe I will manage to pickup someone :)
15:38:09  <planetmaker> refuel just before the border I advise :-)
15:38:14  <planetmaker> in CZ :-)
15:38:27  <SmatZ> :)
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15:39:11  <SmatZ> diesel costs ~1,25€ / l nowadays :(
15:39:14  <SmatZ> here
15:39:27  <planetmaker> I re-fueled for 1.17€ yesterday
15:39:30  <SmatZ> hehe :)
15:40:02  <planetmaker> ok, so my advice to refuel in CZ might not have been good ;-)
15:40:25  <SmatZ> :)
15:40:31  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know diesel prices right now...
15:40:52  <SpComb> drive to saudi arabia and tank there
15:40:55  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: 1.17€ / l.
15:41:06  <planetmaker> It shouldn't be grossly different around Halle ;-)
15:41:13  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: those vary between regions
15:41:25  <Ammler> our diesel might be cheaper
15:41:28  <planetmaker> they do. But not more than 10%
15:41:34  <planetmaker> rather 5%
15:41:44  <SmatZ> I would also expect german diesel to be of higher quality
15:42:03  <planetmaker> I'd suspect that Diesel is somewhat standardized
15:42:10  <planetmaker> at least some minimum requirements
15:42:38  <SmatZ> there was some affair with mixing diesel with "additives" so it is cheaper
15:42:51  * SmatZ is really looking forward for the meeting :)
15:43:05  <planetmaker> well. In Germany you have 5? 10? % "Biodiesel" added by law
15:43:25  *** elmz [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:43:36  <Markk> How commons is it with ethanol?
15:43:39  <Markk> Or E85.
15:43:58  <SmatZ> I think that's EU-wise
15:43:59  <planetmaker> thus non-regenerative fuel is spent in order to get diesel from rapeseeds
15:44:16  <planetmaker> that might be, too
15:54:16  <Eddi|zuHause> lots of poorer countries get enormous food supply problems, because more and more agrarical area is used for "regenerative fuel"
15:55:31  <SmatZ> I heard that too
15:55:44  <SmatZ> I don't have any opinion because I am hardly an expert :)
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16:05:09  <Eddi|zuHause> SmatZ: so, have you decided now to go by car?
16:05:41  *** heffer [] has joined #openttd
16:07:25  <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause: well, it seems to be the cheapest,quickest and most comfortable way
16:07:45  <SmatZ> one problem might be German police checks
16:07:52  <SmatZ> they for some reason don't like czech drivers
16:07:54  <SmatZ> :-/
16:08:20  <Eddi|zuHause> police rarely check passenger cars...
16:08:42  <planetmaker> SmatZ: what could they do?
16:08:53  *** fjb [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:09:34  <SmatZ> there are over 100 official complains agains german police being too "strict"
16:09:54  <SmatZ> like, forcing people to pee near the road for drug tests
16:10:12  <SmatZ> hours of checking of items in the car
16:10:17  <SmatZ> taking people to the police station
16:11:42  <Eddi|zuHause> i still believe it would be best if you pick me up on the way
16:11:57  <planetmaker> :-D
16:12:01  <SmatZ> generally bad and arrogant behaviour from the german police
16:12:05  <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause: can be :)
16:12:14  <SmatZ> would be a nice thing I would say
16:12:44  <Eddi|zuHause> need to decide where and when...
16:12:54  <SmatZ> other problem is that several things are forbidden in Germany, what Czechs don't know
16:13:04  <SmatZ> like, pyrotechnics and bigger knives
16:13:31  <SmatZ> so people are fined for that
16:13:38  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that is true
16:14:13  <Eddi|zuHause> but the reverse is also true, other countries can require you to have e.g. warn vests in your car, which is only required for trucks in germany
16:14:41  <Eddi|zuHause> or drive with lights on, which is quite new in germany
16:14:50  <SmatZ> quite many german drivers are suprised by the zero-alcohol level law :-p
16:15:05  <SmatZ> so they are highly fined for 0.01% BAC
16:15:17  <SmatZ> ~2kEuro iirc
16:15:40  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd generally challenge such a measurement...
16:15:44  <planetmaker> :-O
16:16:31  <SmatZ> well, you can ask for second measurement in 30 minutes
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16:16:36  <SmatZ> and then you are taken for blood tests
16:16:54  <SmatZ> even if the blood test shows you have zero level now, still it's very irritating
16:17:18  <planetmaker> yeah
16:17:22  <Eddi|zuHause> 30 minutes might be a lot for 0.01%
16:18:26  <Eddi|zuHause> SmatZ: i'm available for picking up on the 19th after 12:00, and must be back on the 20th before 11:00
16:18:32  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: a guide for alcohol is 0.01% per hour, though
16:18:49  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: you could still take back a train.
16:18:58  <SmatZ> luckily, I have never experienced that
16:19:34  <SmatZ> the party is only on Saturday
16:19:36  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: yes, but i believe the 19€ offer is only valid if i reserve three days in advance
16:19:42  <SmatZ> so it's probably fine to leave on Sunday
16:19:46  <SmatZ> morning
16:20:05  <planetmaker> he, that's leaving at <9am
16:20:17  <SmatZ> :/
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16:20:29  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, it's about 2 hours
16:20:38  <SmatZ> I am afraid that's too early
16:20:55  <planetmaker> driving needs a sound sleep beforehand :-)
16:21:05  <Eddi|zuHause> i can drive half the way ;)
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16:24:21  <SmatZ> hehe :)
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16:28:49  <glx> <Eddi|zuHause> but the reverse is also true, other countries can require you to have e.g. warn vests in your car, which is only required for trucks in germany <-- and for some countries it's one per passenger
16:29:32  <SpComb> highvis vest manufacturers rejoice
16:29:47  <glx> for now we just need one :)
16:29:57  <SmatZ> :-)
16:30:03  <glx> and a triangle
16:30:19  <SmatZ> you can't HOLD mobile phone while driving
16:30:26  <SmatZ> but you can use hands-free set
16:30:33  <SmatZ> or someone else can hold the phone for you :-p
16:30:51  <glx> you can't smoke, eat, drink water
16:31:21  <SmatZ> "drink water"? what about other liquids?
16:32:08  <glx> I said water because alcohol was of course forbiden
16:32:21  <SmatZ> ok :)
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16:32:34  <SmatZ> sometimes, there are such illogical things in a law
16:32:44  <SmatZ> so I would believe you are forbidden to drink water
16:32:48  <SmatZ> but not for example cola
16:33:09  <glx> well the law is not that explicit
16:35:11  <glx> it just says you must be able to execute all maneouvre required for vehicle driving
16:35:23  <glx> ie you need your both hands free
16:35:30  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... how accurate is google's travel time suggestion?
16:35:50  <Eddi|zuHause> does it know that A2/A14 may be more crowded and thus slower than B6?
16:36:15  <glx> it's based on distance I think
16:36:30  <Eddi|zuHause> considering that both roads have no speed limit
16:37:19  <SmatZ> are roads crowded on Saturday/Sunday morning?
16:37:38  <planetmaker> SmatZ: usually not so
16:37:42  <planetmaker> especially not Sunday
16:37:47  <Eddi|zuHause> most crowded is probably friday afternoon, sunday evening...
16:37:53  <planetmaker> ^
16:37:54  <SmatZ> it shouldn't matter much then :)
16:38:01  <planetmaker> Monday morning actually also quite so :-)
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16:39:48  <Eddi|zuHause> google says B6 is 20 minutes longer, but i don't quite believe it...
16:41:45  <SmatZ>|EUR&indemnite=&carbCost=1.3&
16:41:47  <SmatZ> autoConso=6.8&villeConso=6&routeConso=5.6
16:41:50  <SmatZ> hmm tooo long :(
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16:42:56  <glx> try tinyurl ;)
16:43:46  <SmatZ>
16:43:48  <SmatZ> thanks ;)
16:45:24  <Eddi|zuHause> "You've been driving for almost 2 hours, take a break!" ;)
16:45:38  <glx> yes viamichelin style :)
16:45:49  <SmatZ> :)
16:47:08  <glx> I like how they reproduce the exact panels
16:48:26  <Eddi|zuHause> well, google tries to do that also
16:49:41  <Eddi|zuHause> glx: but this doesn't seem to be very specific within towns...
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17:30:08  <VVG> Is it possible to save size and position of newgrf manager window?
17:31:07  <Alberth> no
17:31:47  <Alberth> you cannot save window sizes and positions
17:39:26  <VVG> ;(
17:44:31  <Sacro> das ist verboten
17:45:46  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r19987 /trunk/src/lang/ (9 files): (log message trimmed)
17:45:46  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:46  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: traditional_chinese - 1 changes by josesun
17:45:46  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: croatian - 11 changes by VoyagerOne
17:45:46  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: french - 11 changes by glx
17:45:47  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: german - 11 changes by planetmaker
17:45:47  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: italian - 1 changes by lorenzodv
17:47:36  <SpComb> 6 days to r20k party
17:47:42  <SpComb> that's 2 commits / day
17:47:53  <SpComb> leaves one for the party itself
17:49:09  * andythenorth got diverted into Lego :)
17:50:26  <andythenorth> planetmaker: does your map size diff build without errors? :)
17:52:49  <andythenorth> if you want to commit it?
17:54:31  <planetmaker> andythenorth: I haven't really tested it :-)
17:54:40  <planetmaker> but I'd assume so :-P
17:55:28  <planetmaker> main question is: do you want the real map size or the log of the map size
17:55:44  <PeterT> let's go germans!
17:55:55  <PeterT> next game starts in 35 minutes ;-)
17:56:05  <planetmaker> indeed it does
17:56:50  <PeterT> I played Germany vs. Australia on FIFA '09 and germany won 6-3 :-D
17:57:07  <andythenorth> planetmaker: I don't maths is rusty
17:57:51  <andythenorth> if it helps, I'm going to have to branch to multiple varact 2 to cover these different range limits for:
17:57:52  <planetmaker> well. YOU want to query it later. It's just a matter of the size of the numbers you want to deal with
17:58:15  <andythenorth> in my paste, the actual dimension should be replaced by tile count
17:58:58  <planetmaker> ok, then we use it (nearly) as is. It doesn't compile. I forgot an escape
17:58:58  <Ammler> PeterT: so the computer was Germany?
17:59:10  <andythenorth> planetmaker: :)
17:59:53  <planetmaker> hm
17:59:59  <andythenorth> the ranges are calculated in a way that one of you might be able to make very efficient
18:00:12  <andythenorth> possibly avoiding branching varact 2 and swapping it for an advanced varact 2
18:00:55  <andythenorth> I take a map 'unit' as 262144 tiles (512^2)
18:01:29  <andythenorth> then the range is calculated as 2 + (2 * 'units')
18:02:07  <andythenorth> perhaps 2 + (2 * (map size / 262144)) will work?
18:02:29  <andythenorth> or perhaps not
18:03:39  <planetmaker> well. One then could form the parameter properly straight away. E.g. in units of 64^2 or 256^2 or so
18:03:39  <andythenorth> there must be a way to do only one range check for all map sizes, but my maths is too poor :P
18:04:06  <andythenorth> there's nothing wrong with branching varact 2, but it's....inelegant
18:04:11  <planetmaker> Just dividing the map count by the number of tiles of the minimum unit you want to consider
18:05:33  <andythenorth> hmm
18:05:52  <planetmaker> hm... grfcodec complains about a verbatim copy from the newgrf wiki :S
18:06:04  <andythenorth> there should be a way to get a result for industry count per unit that is either 1 (enough) or 0 (not enough)
18:06:42  <andythenorth> how does division work with bytecode?
18:06:59  <planetmaker> \D/
18:07:01  <andythenorth> if I do 3/4 what is the result ?
18:07:12  <planetmaker> 0
18:07:20  <andythenorth> 9/10 = 0?
18:07:23  <planetmaker> yup
18:07:24  <andythenorth> but 10/10 = 1
18:07:27  <planetmaker> usually
18:07:38  <andythenorth> there is probably a way then
18:07:55  <planetmaker>   112 * 9	 0D \b12 \D= 13 FE FF FF 00 00 // get the map size (global parameter 13) <-- grfcodec complains about this
18:07:59  <planetmaker> anyone any idea?
18:08:20  <planetmaker>  //!!Error (123): Source parameter 1 is invalid.
18:09:14  <planetmaker>  <Sprite-number> * <Length> 0D <target> <operation> <variable> FE FF FF 00 00 <-- but tells me exactly that format...
18:10:11  <andythenorth> I had similar yesterday, frosch123 said it might be a renum error
18:10:20  <andythenorth> Also, I think this is the maths I need:
18:11:05  <planetmaker> so... shall I give you the number of 512^2 units?
18:11:15  <planetmaker> instead of map size?
18:11:23  <andythenorth> think so
18:11:40  <andythenorth> let's try it, because baroque advanced varact 2 is always cooler than branching :P
18:13:05  <planetmaker> ok. I'll give you both, 512^2 counts (rounded down) and your industry_cluster_parameter
18:14:01  <planetmaker> @calc base(512*512,2)
18:14:01  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: Error: 'base' is not a defined function.
18:14:11  <planetmaker> @calc log(512*512,2)
18:14:11  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 18
18:19:43  <planetmaker> @calc 512**2
18:19:43  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 262144
18:22:42  <Eddi|zuHause> ... i really hate this vuvuzela sound...
18:23:04  <planetmaker> andythenorth: there are then the two parameters at your disposal: INDUSTRY_CLUSTER_PARAMETER (=2+2* MAP_SIZE_PARAMETER) and MAP_SIZE_PARAMETER (=number of 512^2 maps)
18:23:26  <PeterT> Ammler: I was germany ;)
18:23:53  <planetmaker> andythenorth: pushed
18:24:34  <frosch123> andythenorth: planetmaker: be carf
18:24:43  <frosch123> carful with scaling :)
18:24:58  <planetmaker> scaling to 0 is fine
18:25:01  <frosch123> number of industries is only 8 bits, so you cannot control more than 256 clusters
18:25:02  *** Grelouk [~Grelouk@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:25:06  <Eddi|zuHause> PeterT: have you considered that Ballack can't play and lots of young players have been appointed?
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18:25:21  <planetmaker> frosch123: that's not feasable with that formula
18:25:40  <planetmaker> there can only be 16 times a 512^2 map in a max sized map
18:25:53  <planetmaker> so the max. amount can be 2*16 + 2 clusters given the formula
18:33:03  *** Kurimus [] has quit []
18:38:00  <Eddi|zuHause> ...
18:38:40  <PeterT> Eddi|zuHause: I don't really follow soccer
18:38:46  <PeterT> germany just scored!
18:38:59  <fonsinchen> There is noise outside ...
18:39:06  <frosch123> yeah, i also heard some noise
18:39:31  <fonsinchen> eek, they have fireworks
18:39:36  * fonsinchen hides in the basement
18:39:59  <Eddi|zuHause> fireworks is forbidden, except a few days around silvester
18:42:05  <fonsinchen> obviously they don't care
18:42:34  <fonsinchen> mad 'dchlaaand guys are dangerous and reckless ...
18:43:14  <Eddi|zuHause> well... they don't give out hundreds of thousands of fines because of unfounded use of the honk ;)
18:44:18  <fonsinchen> yeah, that would be fun. Cops standing on Sonnenallee and fining everyone who honks unnecessarily
18:44:29  <fonsinchen> They'd be quite busy, not only today.
18:45:18  <fonsinchen> But I'm going to the basement now, as a matter of fact ;) nice evening to all of you.
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19:25:53  <PeterT> planetmaker: can you take a screenshot of the new savegame features?
19:26:08  *** Grelouk [~Grelouk@] has joined #openttd
19:26:09  <planetmaker> I can. But why can't you?
19:26:14  <planetmaker> the nightly should have it.
19:26:26  <PeterT> oh, didn't even notice the nightlies have finished ;-)
19:27:48  *** |Jeroen| [] has quit [Quit: oO]
19:30:52  <PeterT> frosch123: very nice! :-D
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19:32:20  <frosch123> be careful, don't crash it
19:33:54  <planetmaker> hm?
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19:41:13  <Ammler> yes, not many commits left to fix it until next weekend :-P
19:41:31  <planetmaker> :-D
19:41:43  <planetmaker> r20000: Fix (r1) blubber blah
19:42:50  <frosch123> -Add: Cake to my stomach.
19:42:54  <glx> @commit 10000
19:42:59  <DorpsGek> glx: Commit r10000 doesn't exists
19:43:04  <glx> or like that :)
19:43:08  <Ammler> hehe
19:43:09  <planetmaker> :-D
19:43:31  <Ammler> tgp or something strange
19:43:38  <glx> mapgen
19:43:55  <planetmaker> @openttd commit r15000
19:43:55  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: Invalid arguments for _commit.
19:44:01  <planetmaker> @openttd commit 15000
19:44:05  <Ammler> is there something in or just a empty folder?
19:44:05  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: Commit by truebrain :: r15000 /branches/noai/src (ai/ai.hpp saveload/ai_sl.cpp) (2009-01-12 10:47:53 UTC)
19:44:06  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: [NoAI] -Fix (r14984): forgot to rename @file too
19:44:16  <planetmaker> @openttd commit 10000
19:44:17  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: Commit r10000 doesn't exists
19:44:22  <planetmaker> still not ;-)
19:44:31  <planetmaker> @openttd commit 10000
19:44:32  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: Commit r10000 doesn't exists
19:44:35  <planetmaker> @openttd commit 1
19:44:35  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: Commit by truelight :: r1 / (202 files in 13 dirs) (2004-08-09 17:04:08 UTC)
19:44:36  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: Import of revision 975 of old (crashed) SVN
19:44:38  <planetmaker> sorry
19:44:51  <Ammler> it is a commit to a restricted branch
19:46:45  <Eddi|zuHause> afair, the "restricted branch" has been removed
19:46:48  <Ammler> the only "forbidden" rev afaik
19:47:10  <PeterT> why is it forbidden/restricted?
19:47:33  <Eddi|zuHause> because it wasn't a public (as in GPL) project
19:47:34  <Ammler> hmm, then it might be the removal of it :-)
19:47:53  <PeterT> ah
19:48:02  <PeterT> but, Eddi|zuHause, just that one commit?
19:48:26  <Ammler> PeterT: read the logs, maybe you find others...
19:49:26  <planetmaker> what was the purpose of that restricted branch?
19:50:09  <Ammler> to make fun about r10k
19:50:43  <planetmaker> :-P
19:51:03  <elho> heh
19:51:56  <Ammler> maybe someone should crawl for irc discussion around that time :-)
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19:54:13  <frosch123> there was a topic about "what is r10000 going to be"
19:55:54  <elho> (in trying to get accustomed with them new (to me ;)) pbs): the only difference between A and B is, that B is a tiny bit more efficient as paths become free a bit earlier than the exit signals are passed, right?
19:56:06  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think "there won't be a r10k" was an option there ;)
19:56:28  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: there was :)
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19:56:52  <frosch123> though i do not know whether that suggestion was posted first, or the devs decided the strategy first :)
19:56:54  <elho> there's always room for denial :P
19:59:29  <frosch123>
20:00:38  <planetmaker> hm. But CIA didn't tell what r10k was :-)
20:00:48  <planetmaker>
20:00:50  <frosch123> <- another one
20:00:51  <Eddi|zuHause> there was no r10k
20:01:46  <Ammler> hehe Roujin didn't know how svn log worked on that time ;-)
20:05:06  <planetmaker> Commit by rubidium :: r10000 (none) (2007-05-31 15:16:44 UTC)
20:05:45  <frosch123> is that from dorpsgek logs?
20:07:25  * andythenorth cracks knuckles and ponders advanced varact 2
20:07:26  *** Zuu [] has joined #openttd
20:07:29  <Eddi|zuHause> Löw kinda looks like spock in blue shirt...
20:08:13  <frosch123> hmm, why is there no r20000 topic like that. someone could suggest to change the name of ottd :p
20:08:30  <andythenorth> frosch123: during cb 28, using persistent storage for debug is a no-go?
20:09:00  <frosch123> very much :)
20:09:04  <andythenorth> ho hum
20:09:48  <planetmaker> Ammler: I didn't know either and wasn't even around ;-)
20:10:37  * andythenorth doesn't want to get into procedure calls
20:10:51  * andythenorth wants some one else to write this code :P
20:11:26  <Ammler> planetmaker: I don't want to know my dummy questions from that time :-)
20:13:36  <planetmaker> :-)
20:17:33  * andythenorth does it the easy way with branching varact 2
20:19:58  <Ammler> irc logs should be "cleaned" after some short time :-P
20:22:07  <andythenorth> planetmaker: INDUSTRY_CLUSTER_PARAMETER is a dword?
20:22:24  <andythenorth> (result is a dword)?
20:22:27  <planetmaker> yes
20:22:41  * elho prefers his question to stay there until it is answered ;P
20:22:56  <planetmaker> hm... aren't all parameters?
20:23:13  <planetmaker> a dword?
20:23:48  <planetmaker> or is it bad to use parameter numbers \b14 \b13 and assume both are a dword without interference?
20:24:28  <Ammler> you should initialize parameters with actiond
20:24:58  <andythenorth> ooh hiny
20:25:00  <andythenorth> shiny /s
20:25:01  <planetmaker> Well, that's what I do... I first assign them a value before I manipulate them
20:25:13  <andythenorth> planetmaker: INDUSTRY_CLUSTER_PARAMETER seems to work :)
20:25:15  <planetmaker> where that value comes from shouldn't matter.
20:25:25  <planetmaker> nice :-)
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20:26:31  <frosch123> hmm, the log around r10000 is filled with nicks from the past :p
20:26:43  <planetmaker> very much indeed :-)
20:27:11  <SmatZ> :)
20:27:27  <andythenorth> planetmaker: :o actually the values of INDUSTRY_CLUSTER_PARAMETER aren't quite what I expect
20:27:30  <andythenorth> let me see why
20:27:40  <planetmaker> what are they?
20:27:56  <planetmaker> maybe my math is wrong :-)
20:28:03  <andythenorth> I'll do a paste in a minute
20:29:09  <Ammler> frosch123: only maedhros is inactive now
20:30:27  <andythenorth> planetmaker: the results of INDUSTRY_CLUSTER_PARAMETER are in hex not dec?
20:30:35  <andythenorth> or I assume they are anyway :)
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20:31:24  <planetmaker> I might have erred with the bit shift...
20:32:36  <frosch123> night
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20:33:07  <andythenorth> planetmaker:
20:33:30  <andythenorth> looks like a simple error with multiplication?
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20:35:56  <planetmaker> looks like
20:36:00  <planetmaker> let's see
20:36:02  <pugi> 4:0 :D:D
20:36:48  <planetmaker> found it, andythenorth
20:37:00  <planetmaker> +-1 * 0 0D INDUSTRY_CLUSTER_PARAMETER \D= MAP_SIZE_PARAMETER FF \d02         // Multiply map_size_parameter by 2
20:37:06  <planetmaker> the operator shoud be \D*
20:37:13  <planetmaker> try that
20:37:17  <planetmaker> in parameters.pnfo
20:37:34  <andythenorth> will do
20:40:08  <andythenorth> planetmaker: win
20:40:15  <planetmaker> :-)
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20:44:38  <andythenorth> oh poop
20:45:17  <planetmaker> hm?
20:45:57  <andythenorth> I need just the count from var 67
20:45:58  <andythenorth>
20:46:06  <andythenorth> so mask 00FF0000 ?
20:46:31  <andythenorth> format is rrccdddd where I want cc
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20:59:13  <andythenorth> under what circumstance can 81 dec be represented as 89h ?
21:00:56  <Alberth> never
21:00:59  <SmatZ> hehe
21:01:29  <andythenorth> I guess something is wrong then
21:01:56  <Alberth> print bin(81) + " " + bin(0x89)   <-- 0b1010001 0b10001001     bit patterns are different
21:02:27  <SmatZ> Alberth: what language is that, basic?
21:02:33  <Alberth> python
21:02:34  <SmatZ> looks like basic :)
21:02:37  <SmatZ> nice :)
21:02:52  <andythenorth>
21:03:10  <andythenorth> what have I done wrong now :(
21:03:37  <andythenorth> I want BB from this word: xxBBxxxx
21:03:57  <Alberth> (w >> 16) & 0xff
21:04:39  <andythenorth> so what am I doing with my shift?
21:05:32  <Alberth> NFO looks like random sequence of bytes to me
21:05:51  <planetmaker> s/random// and it's true
21:06:22  <andythenorth> I need to set bit 5 (advanced) and do a shift of 16
21:06:22  <Alberth> I didnt' say whether the sequence or the bytes were random :)
21:06:26  <andythenorth> so 20 + 10 = 30
21:06:33  <Alberth> good night all
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21:16:10  *** asilv [] has quit []
21:16:16  * andythenorth finds the mistake :P
21:17:47  *** JVassie [] has joined #openttd
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21:22:14  <Yexo> good evening
21:23:14  *** jpx_ [] has joined #openttd
21:23:30  <planetmaker> o/
21:23:49  <planetmaker> Alberth was missing you :-)
21:25:14  <Yexo> I've already seen a lot of nice commits :)
21:25:30  <planetmaker> :-)
21:25:40  <planetmaker> I think he needs some input on some of his issues
21:26:04  <planetmaker> and he'd be very happy if you could comment on them
21:26:20  <Yexo> I'll take another look at the issue tracker in a moment
21:26:56  <planetmaker> he went already to sleep. So no rush :-)
21:27:25  <andythenorth> planetmaker:
21:28:33  <planetmaker> nice :-)
21:28:35  <peter1138> honey nut?
21:28:38  <planetmaker> congrats!
21:29:19  <andythenorth> hard to work out, simple to write, hard to test :P
21:29:30  <andythenorth> pushed, if anyone wants to try and break it with different map sizes
21:30:00  * planetmaker will try 64x2048
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21:31:23  * Terkhen likes
21:31:32  <Terkhen> I'll try it tomorrow :)
21:32:58  * planetmaker likes it, too. And works on 64x2048
21:36:22  <__ln__> planetmaker, should "we" bring something with us?  (the "we" besides the ones bringing a cake)
21:41:02  <planetmaker> __ln__: besides contributions in form of cake or bbq stuff: not really
21:41:16  <planetmaker> and those two can be out-sourced to me, too
21:44:51  <Ammler> then, it isn't _out_-sourced :-P
21:45:05  <planetmaker> :-)
21:45:11  <__ln__> self-sourced
21:45:42  <planetmaker> __ln__: I simply need to know for how many I shall organize / what people bring
21:45:58  <planetmaker> so that I don't have 20 cakes the next day and 3 kg of meat left.
21:46:07  <planetmaker> or all people starving and complaining
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21:50:22  <__ln__> yes
21:56:57  <elho> what's wrong with 3 kg meat?
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21:57:54  <planetmaker> __ln__:
21:58:18  <planetmaker> elho: it'd be a BBQ next day at 'versity. But still...
21:59:47  <elho> it could also be a nice breakfast, lunch and dinner :D
22:05:54  <andythenorth> 64 x 2048 makes for rather a nice map with clusters :)
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22:07:50  <ccfreak2k> Is it gonna have a r20000 cake with the intro screen?
22:08:36  <__ln__> does someone want something exclusively finnish to eat or drink? :)  (something that is not available in germany)
22:09:19  <XeryusTC> planetmaker: why didnt you organise the r20k party in 3 weeks time, on a weekday, in the dutchlands
22:09:30  <XeryusTC> i could've annoyed you irl too then :)
22:09:44  <planetmaker> :-D
22:10:20  <__ln__> i think you just gave three reasons why not :)  (r20k, weekday)
22:13:19  <Eddi|zuHause> XeryusTC: in three weeks is kinda three weeks too late...
22:14:13  <XeryusTC> well, at least you're sure r20k has been reached then ;)
22:14:52  <planetmaker> we're sure now :-)
22:15:20  <XeryusTC> heh, ok :P
22:15:26  <planetmaker> I mean... you're sure your birthday will be <whenever> ;-)
22:15:34  <planetmaker> not only when it already is past ;-)
22:15:54  <XeryusTC> well, there is a chance that you die in the meantime
22:16:07  <planetmaker> yeah
22:16:11  <XeryusTC> maybe the same thing would happen to the server, although it is quit unlikely :P
22:16:31  <planetmaker> wouldn't matter. Sufficient external copies nowadays
22:16:45  <planetmaker> though it might delay commits
22:16:59  <XeryusTC> indeed :P
22:17:14  <XeryusTC> anyway, i would've come if it didnt cost me any money, as i have a negative budget atm :(
22:17:22  <planetmaker> death on the other hand might be more terminal ;-)
22:17:28  <planetmaker> :S
22:17:47  <XeryusTC> death is not terminal for the first few minutes
22:19:03  <__ln__> XeryusTC: nor if you believe what the bible says
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22:27:33  <planetmaker> however... good night for now :-)
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22:37:31  <Terkhen> good night
22:39:25  <fjb> Moin
22:42:16  <b_jonas> good night
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22:46:24  <elho> does laoding time in tram stations depend on platform length, like with trains?
22:52:27  <Yexo> no
22:52:41  <Yexo> and for trains it only matters if the train is longer then the platform
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23:04:35  <elho> Yexo: yes, of course. and a 3 vehicle tram is longer than a single station (but fits in a double one), so i wondered... :)
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