Log for #openttd on 23rd June 2010:
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00:00:48  <fjb> Every thing is easy to implement. You only have to compare it to the right job. :-)
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00:01:44  <Anderus> i mean, i know the password that i set, it just won't fit in the password box
00:02:40  <glx> Anderus: how long is it?
00:02:43  <Anderus> but it did when i typed it
00:03:00  <Eddi|zuHause> Anderus: there are two ways to remove passwords, first one is saving the game and restarting the server, second one is using the "autoclean" options (dangerous)
00:03:09  <Anderus> 23 chars
00:03:25  <Anderus> dang :(
00:03:27  <Yexo> Anderus: open the consoloe, then type "join <companyid> <password>"
00:03:30  <Yexo> tha tmight work
00:03:55  <Anderus> that worked! thank you!
00:04:54  <fjb> Hier werden sie geholfen.
00:06:00  <glx> ,...,...,...,...,...ShowQueryString(STR_EMPTY, STR_NETWORK_NEED_COMPANY_PASSWORD_CAPTION, 20, 180, this, CS_ALPHANUMERAL, QSF_NONE); <-- indeed 23 is too much for the GUI
00:06:17  <glx> :)
00:06:31  <Anderus> haha
00:07:19  <Eddi|zuHause> i always thought the openttd string limits are ridiculously small
00:07:58  <fjb> Especially the group names.
00:08:06  <Eddi|zuHause> like for train and group names
00:08:17  <TruePikachu> I still want to get this working here for the time being
00:10:30  * fjb also wants a lot of things.
00:10:47  <ccfreak2k> Eddi|zuHause, they're just stringing you along.
00:10:56  <Eddi|zuHause> like if i want to name road vehicle groups in the scheme "<City> - <Line> - <Start>-<Via>-<End>" it often won't fit
00:11:25  <TruePikachu> I know that TW won't help one bit
00:11:39  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: yexo * r20012 /trunk/src/ (company_gui.cpp network/network_gui.cpp): -Fix: when joining a company with a password you could only enter 20 characters of the password
00:12:02  <fjb> You only know if you tried.
00:12:23  <TruePikachu> My mom tried when the modem turned off the DHCP server
00:12:39  <TruePikachu> They sent 5 techs over, and none of them could find the problem
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00:13:04  <TruePikachu> I simply assign a static IP address, get into the settings, and re-enable the DHCP
00:13:25  <glx> I guess we need at least
00:13:47  <glx> oh Yexo was faster
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00:14:16  <TruePikachu> Oh, and I have a pressing question about the game mechanics
00:14:43  <TruePikachu> What is needed to make cities grow? I don't understand the wiki on the subject
00:14:54  <glx> depends on climate
00:15:11  <TruePikachu> I am only concerned with Temprate right now
00:15:36  <fjb> Active stations.
00:15:41  <glx> passengers and mail
00:15:54  <TruePikachu> I mean, the wiki states 5 stations within the city, but does it work if they are all connected as one station, and each of the 5 parts are visited?
00:16:02  <Yexo> have 5 stations within x (15? / 20?) tiles from the city center and make sure a vehicle visits these stations every 50 (or was it 20?) days
00:16:12  <TruePikachu> 50
00:16:17  <Yexo> there have to be 5 differnt station labels
00:16:23  <TruePikachu> :(
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00:17:31  <glx> a small bus/tram network :)
00:19:29  <TruePikachu> If a station covers a bigger part of a city than another station, assuming the stations are not there simutaniously, and they both have the same ratings, do they get the same number of passengers and mail provided that the population is also the same?
00:20:23  <TruePikachu> Or are the supplies dependant only on coverage area?
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00:22:22  <TruePikachu> Can someone answer?
00:23:20  <glx> only the 2 best stations get stuff
00:23:39  <glx> (or is it 3 ?)
00:23:45  <TruePikachu> Not a good answer, and it's 2
00:24:16  <fjb> Why does every beginner make the whole town one station?
00:24:44  <planetmaker> just because!
00:25:08  <TruePikachu> Because either A) the wiki isn't specific on these things, or B) that's how Railroad Tycoon does it
00:26:02  <glx> IIRC coverage is only for delivering
00:26:25  <TruePikachu> ?
00:28:14  <TruePikachu> fjb, please elaborate
00:28:36  <fjb> Elaborate what?
00:28:56  <TruePikachu> on why you don't make town-sized stations
00:30:22  <fjb> The town does not grow with only one station and so there will be not that many passengers.
00:31:02  <TruePikachu> But if a station is in a town, no matter what the coverage area is, the station can serve the entire town's population?
00:31:13  <planetmaker> s/not grow/not grow fast/
00:31:22  <TruePikachu> And I've disproved you many times
00:31:42  <TruePikachu> ^ im my savegames
00:31:46  <planetmaker> ... I guess you disprove fjb this time then, too
00:31:48  <TruePikachu> * in
00:32:06  <planetmaker> and make sure to add the wrong info again to the wiki
00:32:34  <TruePikachu> No, I mean with one station, I brought a city from 1,000 to 20,000
00:32:37  <planetmaker> (yes, fjb is right. 5 stations are what is the optimum to get a town growing)
00:32:47  <planetmaker> yes, they grow even without station
00:32:53  <planetmaker> yes, they grow slowly with one
00:33:13  <TruePikachu> Okay, but what exactly is coverage are for then?
00:33:16  <planetmaker> yes, I've grown a town with  one million inhabitants
00:33:21  <TruePikachu> O_o
00:33:34  <TruePikachu> How long?
00:33:44  <planetmaker> dunno. 300 game years maybe?
00:33:55  <TruePikachu> Oh
00:34:28  <planetmaker> the coverage area gives you the acceptance of a station. And somewhat also what is delivered
00:35:27  <TruePikachu> But a station in a city with just, say, a bus stop will serve the ENTIRE city
00:35:42  <TruePikachu> and not just the coverage area of houses
00:35:47  <TruePikachu> ?
00:36:22  * planetmaker uploaded SwedishRails 0.3.0 to bananas
00:36:36  <TruePikachu> ...
00:37:09  <planetmaker> TruePikachu: you get the cargo from your coverage area
00:37:29  <TruePikachu> If a bus stop is in a city, does it take care of everybody and their mail?
00:39:44  <TruePikachu> Is one bus stop capible of accessing an entire city???
00:40:14  <planetmaker> have you ever placed a bus stop? Have you ever seen the coverage area while doing so?
00:40:21  <TruePikachu> yes
00:40:27  <planetmaker> go figure
00:41:08  * TruePikachu is getting confused by all the different answers
00:41:20  <fjb> One bus stop makes the whole town grow, but you only get the passengers from the coverage area.
00:41:42  <TruePikachu> Okay.
00:41:51  * planetmaker goes to bed. Have a good night folks
00:41:59  <planetmaker> End test swedish rail set ;-)
00:42:02  <glx> well a house delivers passengers to the 2 best station in its catchement area :)
00:42:06  <planetmaker> s/End/And/ :-)
00:42:35  <glx> size is 4 by default
00:42:44  <fjb> Night planetmaker.
00:42:57  <TruePikachu> What do you mean by size?
00:44:57  <TruePikachu> glx: what do you mean by size?
00:45:05  <fjb> Size of the catchment area we are talking about at the moment.
00:45:28  <TruePikachu> How does it change?
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00:46:05  <glx> so the house look for stations (in its own area), then checks if it is (the house) in the station area
00:46:17  <fjb> It is in the settings. It can be the same for all station types or depending on the station type.
00:46:34  <glx> fjb: no it's 4 or 10 :)
00:46:51  <fjb> glx: Ok, thank you.
00:46:58  <glx> 4 is default, 10 is modified_catchement
00:47:14  <TruePikachu> Wait, so how would you get tons of people to deliver?
00:47:21  <glx> but in case of modified_catchement it checks the station catchement area too
00:49:05  <TruePikachu> How do you get tons of people to deliver?
00:49:06  <fjb> Make a bus or tram network and deliver the passengers to one big station. Get them there by a train, plane or what else.
00:49:27  <TruePikachu> with transfer?
00:49:35  <glx> yes
00:49:51  <glx> you can also play with town grfs
00:50:06  <TruePikachu> And then, when delivering passengers back to the city, what do you do?
00:50:07  <glx> you'll get more people than you can transport
00:50:53  <fjb> Just throw them off the train if the train station accepts passengers.
00:51:05  <TruePikachu> And the city will still grow?
00:51:49  <fjb> Yes.
00:52:01  <TruePikachu> Okay. One last question: would it be a good idea to use the OpenTTD_Co-op pages as a stragety guide?
00:52:27  <fjb> The passengers can not leave the station, get bored and make a lot of babies.
00:52:39  <TruePikachu> fjb, see 'oil rig'
00:53:20  <TruePikachu> 'Passenger production at so and so oil rig increases by 100%'
00:53:25  <glx> passengers just go where you want them to go :)
00:53:30  <fjb> What else would you do on an oil rig in your spare time?
00:54:03  <TruePikachu> I am definitly e-mailing this to my friend
00:56:01  <TruePikachu> I would try to increase oil production by 100%
00:57:18  <TruePikachu> Would it be a good idea to use the OpenTTD_Co-op pages as a stragety guide?
00:57:58  <fjb> Yes, if you understand them.
00:58:15  <TruePikachu> Okay.
00:59:09  <fjb> And don't drill at the deep water.
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01:14:32  <fjb> Two important rules of Seefaring: 1) Don't drill at the deep sea. 2) Don't name your ship "Mary Celeste".
01:25:39  <glx> and don't disable alarms?
01:26:52  <fjb> May be.
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03:11:39  <Anderus> is there a "close all windows" button?
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03:58:58  <Anderus> i think the server died
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04:05:22  <ccfreak2k> Is there a newgrf or something for one-way roads?
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04:06:23  <ccfreak2k> fjb, what's Seefaring?
04:23:30  <ccfreak2k> Oh, I found the one-way thing.
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04:37:44  <ccfreak2k> OpenMSX is very...interesting.
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06:03:01  <ccfreak2k> How do those long trains fit in the tiny depots?
06:04:11  <SpComb> magic
06:15:52  <Ammler> that is just a entry to downstairs
06:16:57  <planetmaker> moin
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06:52:55  <Terkhen> good morning
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12:36:19  <ccfreak2k> Modern Motion is a weird song.
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13:17:28  <Belugas> hi
13:18:44  <PeterT> hey Belugas
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13:30:32  <Belugas> hello PeterT
13:30:47  <PeterT> how are you this morning?
13:31:04  <PeterT> had enough coffee yet to wake up? ;)
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13:33:41  <andythenorth> hi hi
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13:36:40  <Belugas> barely, PeterT, barely.  second cup.  but meeting provided enough adrenalin to make it the same as two other mugs
13:36:45  <Belugas> hi andythenorth
13:38:32  <PeterT> good to hear :)
13:38:53  <PeterT> you could also drink tea, not as bad for you :p
13:40:15  <Belugas> might
13:40:17  <Belugas> problem
13:40:23  <Belugas> boss supplies coffee
13:40:26  <Belugas> not tea
13:40:39  <Belugas> not going to BUY my dose of boosters for the day :S
13:41:03  <PeterT> lol
13:41:20  <PeterT> demand that he supply tea or you will burn down his office
13:41:22  <PeterT> :p
13:42:22  <Belugas> i'd rather ask him for photo hardware if ever i had a special demand ^_^
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13:42:50  <Belugas> plus... hey... being honest, i love coffee
13:43:02  <PeterT> hehe
13:43:14  <PeterT> well, I hope I don't get into it
13:44:51  <Belugas> that's another subject.  it's the same about any kind of boost.  the excess is what is dangerous
13:45:38  <PeterT> 4 cups is not in excess?
13:45:55  <Belugas> not from what i heard
13:46:08  <Belugas> 6-7 is getting quite excessive
13:46:10  <PeterT> I guess it depends on the person
13:46:13  <Belugas> 4 is like.. borderline
13:46:14  <Belugas> or so
13:46:29  <PeterT> ah
13:46:33  <Belugas> but it might ahev written by a guy who drinks even more.. dunno
13:46:47  <Belugas> and yes, it might depends of the person indeed
13:46:59  <peter1138> hm
13:47:06  <Belugas> like alcohol, in factr
13:47:11  <PeterT> yeah
13:47:31  <PeterT> if it's like alchohol, then it takes getting used to, building a tolerence
13:48:32  <Belugas> after two beers (american beer not taking in account, of course), i'm getting really  not when my hair were flowing freely on my shoulders...
13:48:35  <Belugas> see waht i mean?
13:49:07  <PeterT> :-D
13:50:40  <peter1138> hee, my hair is just on my shoulders
13:51:01  <PeterT> I used to have long hair
13:51:09  <PeterT> then I cut it off
13:51:14  <PeterT> for the summer :p
13:51:16  <peter1138> me too
13:51:23  <peter1138> i had 7 years of long hair
13:51:30  <PeterT> O_o wow :-D
13:53:15  <Ammler> 7years cut in 7mins?
13:53:23  <PeterT> hehe
13:53:34  <PeterT> alright, let's go USA!!
13:53:39  <PeterT> how good is Algeria?
13:53:45  <Ammler> better :-P
13:54:15  <PeterT> :-(
13:54:27  <PeterT> I just heard that Algeria hasn't scored in any of the games :p
13:54:27  <Belugas> mmh... what should i do to convince my wife i should grow my hair back?
13:54:57  <Belugas> ho.. i know...find something to have more hair for a start!
13:55:07  <peter1138> :s
13:55:20  <Belugas> peter1138, you do look good, judging form last shot ;)
13:56:00  <PeterT> I only saw your profile when you posted it in #tycoon
13:56:15  <peter1138> hmm, that's an ancient photo :)
13:56:25  <peter1138> hmm, probably 6 years old
13:56:42  <Rubidium> Belugas: call it a budget cut on hair dressing
13:56:42  <peter1138> seeing as that account was made in 2005 :)
13:57:08  <PeterT> peter1138: aha, post an updated picture then ;-)
13:57:17  <Belugas> i was talking about the last time i saw you on video ;)
13:57:32  <Belugas> Rubidium : nice idea :)
13:57:37  <peter1138> ah yes, the live video stream. that was fun :)
13:58:26  <peter1138> people look different when they're moving
13:58:47  <Belugas> quite :)
13:58:53  <Belugas> they look... normal
13:59:06  <PeterT> 2D is normal?
13:59:08  <PeterT> :-D
13:59:12  <Belugas> that's what i was thinking when looking at the 20k party shots
13:59:32  <Belugas> PeterT, close one eye and yes, 2D becomes normal!
13:59:34  <Belugas> hehehe
13:59:39  <PeterT> :D
13:59:46  <PeterT> wait...there are 20k party shots?
13:59:52  <PeterT> I only saw the cake
14:00:46  <Belugas> yeah some. the best ones are when they all got naked
14:00:48  <Belugas> funny as hell
14:01:00  <PeterT> oh gawd
14:01:43  <Belugas> hem... it was a joke...
14:02:28  <PeterT> I know that :p
14:02:28  <peter1138> okay
14:02:32  <peter1138> the office is quite empty now
14:02:35  <peter1138> the boardroom is quite full
14:02:42  <peter1138> oddly enough, there's 50" telly in there
14:02:59  <peter1138> i seem to be the only one not interested in whatever is showing on it
14:03:11  <PeterT> probably England versus Slovenia
14:03:42  <Belugas> maybe you were not invited?
14:04:02  <Belugas> it's time to practice your singing, peter1138 ;)
14:04:24  <peter1138> i do a good falsetto for singing beegees...
14:04:59  <peter1138> i think i'll just put some metal on
14:06:08  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe they're watching USA-Algeria :p
14:06:22  <PeterT> now, why would they watch that crap?
14:06:56  <peter1138> what, football?
14:06:59  <peter1138> cos they're muppets
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14:08:12  <Belugas> metal... mmhh...  that's an idea...
14:08:25  <Belugas> let see...
14:08:49  <Belugas> oh.. iron maiden... Allowed be Thy name... That I can sing :D
14:09:26  <Belugas> steve vai... nor sing nor play
14:14:04  <Belugas> haaa... Queensrÿche!
14:14:29  <Belugas> "your call is important"
14:14:31  <Belugas> BULLSHIT!
14:16:20  <peter1138> :)
14:23:25  <peter1138> changed my icon
14:25:55  <PeterT> haha great :-D
14:27:44  <peter1138> ahhh, NIN :D
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14:35:08  <peter1138> set the controls
14:35:12  <peter1138> for the heart of the sun
14:35:19  <peter1138> my metal filter seems broken
14:38:40  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20013 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 2 dirs): -Fix [FS#3890]: silence some warnings / take the advice of the warnings into account
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14:46:30  <Belugas> lol@peter1138 :D
14:56:29  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20014 /trunk/src/vehicle_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#3881]: don't close the sort dropdown in the (original) vehicle list when there are no vehicles. That code is meant for the "actions" dropdown
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15:52:15  <andythenorth> hmm
15:52:17  <andythenorth> football
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17:26:47  <frosch123> planetmaker: are there already some photos available somewhere?
17:27:17  <Zuu> As far as I can see the filter sign list patch is now complete feature wise and hopefully not too far from being of acceptable quality. :-)
17:27:33  <Zuu> frosch123: Yes there are
17:29:35  <Belugas> and you look so good on those, frosch123 hahahaha!!
17:29:50  <frosch123> yeah, hillarious :)
17:30:03  <frosch123> i wonder about the joke...
17:30:12  <Belugas> none joke intended ;)
17:30:37  <planetmaker> frosch123: yes, there are. And I forgot to give you the link as you already went to bed when I gave them around ;-)
17:30:42  <Belugas> i was just pleased seeing what you were looking like.  I was not disappointed
17:30:44  <frosch123> i mean the joke which apparently was heard while the photo was taken
17:30:53  <frosch123> planetmaker: already got it :)
17:30:58  <planetmaker> oki :-)
17:31:01  <Belugas> ho... that... must have been a lot going on,from what i heard
17:31:52  <Zuu> Yep
17:34:20  <Zuu> planetmaker: A zip/tar/tgz or something would be nice to allow easier downloading.
17:34:56  <planetmaker> wget ;-)
17:35:18  <planetmaker> I see the point, though
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17:45:21  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: translators * r20015 /trunk/src/lang/unfinished/ (chuvash.txt irish.txt tamil.txt):
17:45:21  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:21  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: chuvash - 17 changes by mefisteron
17:45:21  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: irish - 40 changes by tem
17:45:21  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: tamil - 6 changes by Rubidium
17:45:37  <frosch123> rb speaks tamil :)
17:46:18  <Rubidium> nah, just noticed I made some mistakes with copying "default" stuff from english
17:47:23  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20016 /trunk/ (4 files in 3 dirs): -Change: move Irish out of unfinished
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18:03:42  *** kamil [] has joined #openttd
18:03:44  <kamil> hi
18:03:55  <Zuu> Hello
18:04:58  <kamil> i search wiki... and i cant find how to create commands - for example: !help -> echo "Help: ... "
18:05:15  <Zuu> autopilot, ap etc.
18:05:33  <Zuu> xschunter I believe as well
18:06:48  <kamil> ap <- i get always errors... autopilot <- can't run in screen... xschunter... hmm try this:)
18:07:23  <Ammler> ap is autopilot
18:07:56  <Ammler> you might try ap+
18:08:12  *** ecke [~ecke@] has joined #openttd
18:08:54  <kamil> Ammler: yes i try ap+ and i can't this run - i get error always...
18:09:16  <kamil> xschunter <- can't find in google... you have link to home page this project?
18:09:24  <Belugas> wow...  we just had an heartquake!
18:09:33  <Belugas> that feels strange!
18:09:45  <kamil> Belugas: why? this channel i silent mode?:P
18:10:02  <Belugas> no, in (burk) real life!
18:10:07  <Ammler> it might not be released yet
18:10:10  <Belugas> here, at work!
18:10:12  <frosch123> looks like there is "quak" in earthquakle
18:10:28  <SpComb> heartquake?
18:10:31  <Belugas> ho...
18:10:38  <Belugas> as in GROUND SHAKING
18:10:47  <Belugas> me and my english :S
18:11:00  <SpComb> translates to earthquake, despite what your silly local language says
18:11:10  <frosch123> Belugas: you now have to try for 20 minutes to call your wife and ask whether everything is fine
18:11:44  <frosch123> what is an earthquake without collapsing telephone service
18:11:58  <kamil> Zuu: i can't find xschunter - you have link to home page project?
18:12:11  <Ammler> [20:09] <Ammler> it might not be released yet
18:12:12  <PeterT> No, it's not available for Public use yet
18:12:16  <Belugas> mmh... /me tries that
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18:12:19  <PeterT> basically, what Ammler said
18:12:29  <planetmaker> I'm pretty sure it's also spellt xShunter, kamil
18:12:30  *** VVG [~sdfkhksd@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:12:40  <planetmaker> propper spelling helps searches usually a lot
18:12:42  <kamil> ouuu...
18:12:43  <planetmaker> communication, too
18:12:47  <PeterT> planetmaker: yeah, it's what Zuu said ;-)
18:12:58  <PeterT> <Zuu> xschunter I believe as well
18:13:07  <Ammler> -c
18:13:40  <Eddi|zuHause> <kamil> xschunter <- can't find in google... you have link to home page this project? <- it's misspelled, should probably be xshunter
18:13:47  <kamil> ok, how to disable aircraft/plane in game?
18:14:04  <frosch123> set maximum number of planes to 0 per company
18:14:07  <planetmaker> set their max_XXX to 0
18:14:31  <kamil> i set, but game renew this vars to default = 200
18:14:39  <Zuu> As I said I was not 100% about the name being spelled correctly.
18:19:28  <Belugas> well look at that... could call my wife right there, without trouble ;P
18:19:46  <Belugas> she felt it too, but she tough it was the construction guys on the street!
18:22:15  <frosch123> :)
18:22:37  <PeterT> anyway
18:22:37  <kamil> ok, any try run autopilot in screen?
18:22:47  <PeterT> xShunter or xschunter, it's not available
18:22:49  <PeterT> kamil: yep
18:23:04  <PeterT> if you are just testing it, try without screen
18:23:19  <Ammler> kamil: only ap+ is useable
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18:28:11  <kamil> Ammler: i run ap+ and get this:
18:28:30  <Yexo> <kamil> i set, but game renew this vars to default = 200 <- if you want to change it in a savegame load the savegame and then change it
18:28:31  <Ammler> kamil: version?
18:28:53  <kamil> Ammler: openttd? 1.0.1
18:28:59  <Ammler> no, ap+
18:29:28  <Ammler> svnversion
18:29:58  <Ammler> looks like expect is missing
18:30:09  <Ammler> looks like you are someone who doesn't read readme
18:30:10  <kamil> 768
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18:31:05  <Ammler> 768 is fine
18:31:44  <Ammler> kamil: also check if you have tclx installed
18:31:52  <Ammler> and tcllib
18:32:41  <kamil> tclx == tcl* ?
18:33:13  <Ammler> not sure about tclx though
18:33:18  <Ammler> but tcllib is
18:33:22  <kamil> tcllib-1.12-2.noarch: equal version installed, skipped
18:33:42  <Ammler> tcl != tclx
18:34:59  <kamil> don't have... w8 i install:>
18:35:24  <Ammler> @topic -1
18:35:24  <DorpsGek> Ammler: topic [<channel>]
18:35:46  <Yexo> @topic get -1
18:35:46  <DorpsGek> Yexo: English only
18:35:53  <Ammler> thanks Yexo :-)
18:37:43  <kamil> Ammler: well i'm installed tclx, but:
18:37:51  <kamil> can't run ap+
18:39:19  <Ammler> [20:29] <Ammler> looks like expect is missing
18:39:54  <Ammler> which "guide" did you read for installing?
18:41:10  <kamil> Ammler: guide? <- i can't find guide
18:41:58  <PeterT> autopilot is a Tcl script which uses Tcl's Expect package to interface with OpenTTD's dedicated server console to provide network games with additional features not normally available with the game alone. This is the operator's manual for version 2.0 of autopilot.
18:42:07  <PeterT> errr, sorry for formatting :X
18:42:15  <PeterT> that's copied from
18:42:48  <Ammler> kamil: yes, then you have all you need :-)
18:43:45  <kamil> PeterT: yes i read this web page... but can't get manual... i configure openttd.cfg...
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18:49:43  <attish> hello! openttd scans my home directory for tars, but my home contains symlinks to several really huge directories, and the scanning takes forever. Is there a way to turn it off or restrict it to ~/.openttd?
18:51:45  <Rubidium> it "only" checks ~/.openttd and the installation/working directory
18:52:04  <Rubidium> so if ~/ is your working directory you should change it
18:52:35  <attish> it works, thanks!
18:53:08  <attish> still, this may cause a casual user to think the program has locked up
18:53:21  <attish> I found out about the scanning via ltrace
18:54:24  <attish> do you think it's worth filing a bug report?
18:55:03  <Alberth> the main developer is aware of it, so what good would the report do?
18:55:12  <Rubidium> doubtful; it has been the way for years and changing it now would more likely break stuff
18:55:50  <Rubidium> also you seem to be the first person having ~/ as working directory as I can't remember anyone having this issue
18:56:08  <Rubidium> maybe that's because the casual user starts it from the desktop which has a different working directory?
18:56:30  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... at this rate, we'll really go home with a 0:2 :p
18:56:41  <attish> I guess I'm the first one with ~ as wd and ~ being >100 GB :)
18:57:46  <attish> casual users are at danger here
18:57:58  <Eddi|zuHause> the problem starts if you have a ~/data dir
18:58:07  <attish> indeed
18:58:15  <attish> I have one, and it's the big one
18:58:44  <attish> and renaming it to data_ cures it
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18:59:14  <attish> sounds like a bug to me
19:00:06  <Rubidium> one man's bug in another man's feature :(
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19:01:23  <Rubidium> because the change the working directory trick is used to make an USB/portable install
19:01:57  <peter1138> heh
19:03:38  <attish> the only right solution I can think of is to pop up a "please wait" window if the scanning takes more than 5 seconds
19:03:41  <Alberth> 'data' is too generic anyway
19:04:15  <Alberth> or don't go deeper than say 10 levels
19:04:28  *** Wolf01 [] has joined #openttd
19:04:34  <Wolf01> hi
19:04:39  <Alberth> hi Wolf01
19:04:43  <attish> in my case it wouldn't solve it, but otherwise seems worthy
19:05:00  <Rubidium> is that directory by any chance filled with tar files?
19:05:35  <peter1138> could be fun when we get gz, bz2 and good ol' zip support ;)
19:05:54  <attish> only pure .tar files, or .tar.gz and .tar.bz2 are checked too?
19:06:13  <peter1138> only pure
19:06:18  <attish> no, I have no pure tar files
19:06:25  <attish> I'm almost certain
19:06:46  <attish> if only these are checked, then it's only traversing the directory tree that takes time
19:06:51  <Alberth> find ~/data -name "*.tar" -print
19:06:52  <attish> but it shouldn't take this much
19:07:44  <attish> 0 results
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19:08:35  <attish> it's strange
19:08:45  <attish> the find command returns almost immediately
19:09:06  <attish> this suggests that the directory tree is cached
19:09:39  <attish> but the scanning still takes forever to finish
19:09:48  <Rubidium> yep
19:10:07  <Rubidium> the second start of openttd should be considerably faster
19:11:03  <attish> that's my point: it should be, but it doesn't seem to be so
19:11:51  <attish> besides, CPU usage is at 100%; scanning the directory tree would mean low CPU utilization, much more time spent waiting for the FS
19:13:56  <attish> I'll look at the source
19:14:02  <Rubidium> then there might be a loop in the symlinks?
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19:14:54  <attish> would ls -R fall into an infinite loop in that case?
19:16:11  <attish> because it traverses my ~/data without problems
19:16:54  <Rubidium> don't know
19:17:15  <Rubidium> I only know that OpenTTD doesn't make much of an effort to prevent such traps
19:17:53  <Rubidium> due to "too much work for too little benefit"; there is no generic API to prevent such traps
19:18:03  <attish> but these hurt reputation -- casual user launches, waits, then says OK, it hangs without a word, so it's rubbish, and uninstalls
19:19:37  <Rubidium> might be, but making OpenTTD security vulnerable or destroying the existing user base is probably way worse
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19:22:13  <attish> I don't think there's a conflict here -- keep a counter of scanned files; once counter goes past say, 10000, display a window to assure the user that the program is still alive, then destroy this window once the scanning's done
19:22:22  <attish> this doesn't sound like a vulnerability
19:22:36  <attish> but I'm no security expert
19:22:48  <Rubidium> okay, that is not necessarily a security issue
19:23:03  <Rubidium> problem is... how to show the window (on especially X)
19:23:20  <attish> you have a point there :)
19:23:40  <Rubidium> assume the graphics are not found yet and as such SDL + openttd sprites doesn't work
19:24:12  <attish> check if we have X, if yes, display a very simple message box, else print a line on the console
19:24:37  <Rubidium> attish: we can't quite check for X
19:24:54  <Rubidium> unless we add X as a hard dependency
19:24:57  <attish> a simple test would be checking if DISPLAY is set
19:25:27  <Rubidium> even then, you still don't have the characters to draw something on the screen
19:27:07  <attish> frankly, I have no idea, I don't really know X
19:28:24  <attish> but I think we could use a solution that works for the "average linux desktop"
19:28:52  <attish> since everyone who uses a more limited environment will be likely to know their way around this problem
19:29:00  <Rubidium> works and doesn't break something for the rest... which is kinda a big problem
19:29:03  <Alberth> like assuming there is no 'data' directory in the cwd?  :p
19:29:47  <Alberth> perhaps a rename to 'openttd-data' ?
19:30:27  <Rubidium> Alberth: are you going to fix the directories of everyone?
19:30:38  <Rubidium> as we can't "simply" rename data to openttd-data on startup
19:31:01  <Rubidium> so you'd be effectively breaking *all* portable installation
19:31:29  <Alberth> so a change would need a few years at least
19:31:47  <frosch123> just replace "cwd" with "cwd, if not ~" :p
19:31:56  <Rubidium> attish: a major problem of OpenTTD is showing error messages early on; it has existed forever and there's hardly anything that can be done about it
19:32:36  <Rubidium> frosch123: what about /data or O:\data ?
19:33:51  <frosch123> :)
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19:43:17  <Eddi|zuHause> but we do need some kind of splash screen while scanning for grfs/tars...
19:46:07  <Alberth> No splash screen, please. Those are *so* annoying.
19:46:14  * Rubidium assigns Eddi to do that
19:46:37  <fjb> Hm, yes splash screens are annoying.
19:47:07  <attish> add an option to disable splash screen, then :)
19:47:20  <Alberth> better, don't add one
19:47:25  <Ammler> well, waiting and not seeing what happens is also bad
19:47:51  <Ammler> if you click openttd icon and you need to wait 10 secs...
19:48:09  <Ammler> you quite much like to click twice or more :-)
19:48:20  <Alberth> more openttds!
19:48:23  <Alberth> more fun!
19:48:24  <frosch123> don't mix it with reading grf info :) that needs caching
19:49:10  <Rubidium> and reading grf info might be done once the base graphics are found and loaded
19:49:49  <Ammler> it doesn't need a big splash screen, but a starting indicator would be nice
19:50:31  <Ammler> maybe a little stream lok choochoos over the screen?
19:51:02  <fjb> Animated mouse pointer. :-)
19:53:56  *** VVG [~sdfkhksd@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:55:28  <Eddi|zuHause> tt original had an "intro"
19:55:39  <Rubidium> question then is how to load the splash screen, or rather: what to do when there is no libpng
19:55:58  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: 99% certain those graphics come from one of the grfs
19:56:10  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, likely
19:56:26  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe hardcode an image into the executable?
19:59:05  <frosch123> a progressbar-like throbber would not need graphics
20:01:26  <glx> and how do you know how many files to check ?
20:01:42  *** SirSquidness [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:01:55  <Ammler> well, those progressbars just start again
20:01:56  <Rubidium> glx: like windows: "Please wait while preparing to ..."
20:01:58  <frosch123> not that progressing type of progressbar :) the one which cycles, like on win 95/xp start
20:01:58  <glx> hmm or a progress not progressive
20:02:36  <glx> I should be able to do that on windows (file access are slow ;) )
20:03:32  <mikegrb>
20:03:43  <Alberth> why not add the path of last found stuff to the config, so you can find it fast?
20:03:53  <Alberth> ie the base graphics
20:04:46  <Rubidium> then you still have the problem the first time, which is (basically) what attish complained about (a bit)
20:05:32  <Rubidium> and if it comes from a tar then you'd need to make a list of "preload" tars as well
20:05:35  <Ammler> what is "the first time"?
20:06:03  <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: a "virgin" start without config
20:06:17  <frosch123> just after installing, when you cannot rely on any cached values
20:06:37  <Ammler> where does it cache to?
20:06:48  <Alberth> also run as part of the install?
20:07:01  <Ammler> and how do you detect updates?
20:07:14  <Alberth> that leaves out the source installs, but that is a small group
20:07:26  <Alberth> Ammler: afterwards
20:07:34  <frosch123> [22:06] <Ammler> where does it cache to? <- it does not :) but it is usally suggested when it comes to loading times :)
20:07:45  <glx> better find a way to show it is doing something :)
20:07:51  *** Yexo [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20:07:54  <Ammler> ah, that is a upcomming feature :-)
20:08:17  <frosch123> yup, upcoming for 5 years or so :p
20:08:33  <Ammler> but I feel somehow a second start is faster already
20:08:50  <glx> not after a reboot Ammler :)
20:08:53  <Rubidium> Ammler: that's caused by your OS
20:09:24  <Rubidium> caching the file system's directory layout/files
20:09:32  <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: the second start in a short timeframe means many files are still in cache
20:10:28  <Ammler> I see...
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20:45:16  <TruePikachu> I got a funny response from TW
20:45:46  <TruePikachu> They said that the modem got infected with a virus
20:46:09  <TruePikachu> They also said that they reset the modem entirely to default settings...
20:46:46  <TruePikachu> ...however, if that was the case, this wireless connection would have been revoked because of an invalid WEP
20:47:53  <TruePikachu> I was also thinking, about how 192.168,0.250 (but with dot) gets converted to
20:48:11  *** Fast2 [] has joined #openttd
20:48:12  <TruePikachu> I can only come up with one logical reason
20:48:35  <TruePikachu> IRC protocals used by different clients may differ
20:49:09  <TruePikachu> Just like with the CRLF debate
20:49:51  <glx> no IRC is IRC
20:49:51  *** frosch123 [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20:49:55  <Fast2> Without knowledge of the context: The IRC-protocol is defined in an RFC, so all clients schon use the same.
20:49:57  <TruePikachu> IRSSI is a simple client, so it probably just sends everything directly as plaintext through the Internet without additional processing
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20:50:03  <Fast2> *schon|should
20:50:19  <glx> TruePikachu: like all IRC clients
20:50:28  <TruePikachu> Therefore, when the modem picks up the 192.168, it changes it to it's own IP address, making the target think the modem itself sent it
20:51:04  <TruePikachu> However, with some clients, they might do something like 192.168<NULL>.0.250
20:51:17  <TruePikachu> This way, it does not get changed
20:51:51  <glx> no, the router can change packets header, but not the content
20:52:41  <TruePikachu> This is the CG814WG, the 'most problematic modem ever'
20:53:18  <TruePikachu> I am pretty sure that when I was using PIRCH98 on WinXP, I typed in all the time
20:53:40  <TruePikachu> And it was never changed
20:54:30  <TruePikachu> Just coming up with theorys...
20:54:49  <TruePikachu> Anyway, I need a good mainline design that works nicely.
20:55:17  <TruePikachu> I usually used LPPR or LBBR (P=Prioritised bidirectional, B=Bidirectional)
20:55:51  <TruePikachu> Today, I tried L_L___R_R
20:56:15  <TruePikachu> Any thoughts?
20:57:28  *** DrRetro [] has quit []
20:57:59  * TruePikachu thinks he should try to get his DS set up as an IRC client, and his computer set up as a server in order to try to track the problem
20:59:24  *** SirSquidness [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:59:29  <TruePikachu> Oh well, I am experimenting with mainlines right now, and I need ideas
21:02:01  *** TrueBrain [~patric@] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
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21:03:58  <TruePikachu> ping
21:04:16  *** SirSquidness [] has joined #openttd
21:05:05  <andythenorth> pong
21:05:47  <Eddi|zuHause> |.
21:06:26  <SmatZ> |      '|
21:06:47  <Eddi|zuHause> |·
21:06:58  <Zuu>         . |
21:07:13  <Eddi|zuHause> |˙
21:07:17  <Belugas> bye bye all
21:07:18  <TruePikachu> |         *----
21:07:18  * andythenorth GAME OVER
21:07:24  <Zuu> bye Belugas
21:07:33  <andythenorth> we drove him away :(
21:07:36  <Ammler> Bylugas
21:07:40  <andythenorth> or maybe his car drove him away :)
21:07:45  <TruePikachu> lol
21:07:46  <Belugas> will be on holiday tomorrow, shooting some beasts in a zoo :D
21:07:49  * andythenorth is still working at 22.07
21:07:51  <andythenorth> on a day off
21:07:52  <Belugas> ciao and have fun!
21:07:54  <TruePikachu> Camera?
21:07:57  <andythenorth> work started at 9.30
21:07:59  <Belugas> of course....
21:08:00  <andythenorth> on my day off
21:08:01  <Belugas> gone
21:08:04  <andythenorth> bye
21:08:04  <Eddi|zuHause> 'luga sog i
21:08:23  <TruePikachu> Well, anyway, I need mainline ideas
21:08:25  <Ammler> andythenorth: which grf are you working on?
21:08:32  <Ammler> didn't see any commits :-)
21:09:03  <andythenorth> Ammler: I am working on the earningalivingdoingwork.grf
21:09:12  <Zuu> TruePikachu: If you have trains of different speeds you could give them separate tracks.
21:09:17  <Ammler> :-)
21:09:25  <TruePikachu> How would I set that up easily?
21:09:25  <Zuu> Eg RL__RL
21:09:36  <andythenorth> Ammler: have you added closure parameters to FIRS yet?
21:09:46  <andythenorth> in my dream, someone else did it :P
21:09:51  <andythenorth> i.e. not me
21:09:54  <andythenorth> so perhaps you?
21:09:55  <Zuu> Waypoints + pathfinder penalties.
21:10:01  <andythenorth> or one of 6 billion other people
21:10:04  <TruePikachu> Zuu, would L_L___R_R work, inner is faster?
21:10:06  <andythenorth> but ideally not me :P
21:10:19  <Ammler> no dev, no access
21:10:27  <TruePikachu> Wait, inner slower
21:10:43  <TruePikachu> I have 3 tile space in there to do a turnaround and tunnel
21:10:58  <Zuu> TruePikachu: Sure, if you like to do so, but the idea is that if you make them separate, then you can have simplier junctions.
21:11:25  <andythenorth> Ammler: you have root on redmine no?
21:11:32  <TruePikachu> Oh, so I'll design a L_L___R_R -> LR_LR adapter
21:11:34  <Zuu> Eg RL___RL where you have one pair for fast PAX and one for cargo.
21:11:52  <Zuu> If you eg. play with UKRS.
21:12:07  <Ammler> andythenorth: I would only commit .devzone stuff to it...
21:12:10  <TruePikachu> UKRS = ? (I know it's a GRF)
21:12:23  <Zuu> UK rail set I would believe
21:12:33  <Zuu> You'll find it on bananas.
21:12:37  <TruePikachu> Would NuRails work instead?
21:12:42  <Eddi|zuHause> R stands for Renewal
21:12:50  <TruePikachu> Zuu, no, I'll find it in my DATA folder
21:12:58  <Ammler> andythenorth: I didn't code one Action2 sprite yet
21:13:00  <Zuu> UKRS is a train set.
21:13:28  <TruePikachu> Oh, so the default trains could operate then?
21:13:38  <Zuu> where PAX trains are usually quite abit faster than the cargo trains.
21:13:59  <TruePikachu> I know, I've don Train Simulator on Marias Pass
21:14:02  <Zuu> With the default trains there is no such difference in speed between pax and cargo trains.
21:14:03  <TruePikachu> *done
21:14:12  <TruePikachu> Freight 35 Pass 60
21:14:28  <TruePikachu> Zuu, I make a difference between them...
21:14:52  *** jonty-comp [~jonty@2001:1af8:fe2e:110::1] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:15:04  <TruePikachu> Would it be a good idea to try a train GRF?
21:15:24  <Zuu> The thing is that a RR__LL-ish network would require quite a lot more complicated and space requiring junctions/intersections than a simple RL network.
21:15:33  <TruePikachu> I can't flood my systm: 797MHz PIII, 192MB RAM, 4GB Swap
21:15:55  <Zuu> Dual RL is probably more space effective than a load balanced RR__LL.
21:15:57  <TruePikachu> Zuu, I know I use different loco speeds
21:16:47  <TruePikachu> What about a LPR (Prioritised track in middle)? Oh, and I use right-hand traffic, your RL is left-hand
21:17:53  <Zuu> Never really learned what L and R means but if it is right-hand or left-hand doesn't really matter.
21:18:03  <TruePikachu> The center track can be used for passing
21:18:27  <TruePikachu> (If two locos on the PAX have different speeds I.E. AutoReplace hasn't reached them yet
21:18:31  <TruePikachu> )
21:19:08  <Zuu> The problem with passing in OpenTTD is that it seldome works well. In your case you'll probably have the behaviour that trains go back to early to their side so that the train that they just overtook will have to make a full stop.
21:19:52  <TruePikachu> That is if you do it "that way"
21:20:13  <TruePikachu> (one moment...
21:20:23  <TruePikachu> Darn, can't do multiline...
21:20:43  <Zuu> You can do in notepad/emacs/vim etc.
21:21:02  <TruePikachu> I would have 3 tracks. The center one has standard path signals facing both ways, and the outer have one-way path signals
21:21:31  * TruePikachu will start VIM
21:21:50  <Wolf01> 'night
21:21:54  *** Wolf01 [] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
21:22:21  <Zuu> In that case you will have a penalty of running in the centeral lane.
21:22:52  <Zuu> Which will make trains switch back as soon as they can and cut the way of for the trains in the outer lane.
21:23:24  *** jonty-comp [~jonty@2001:1af8:fe2e:110::1] has joined #openttd
21:24:22  <TruePikachu> <Diagram>
21:24:39  <TruePikachu> <Didn't copy :P>
21:25:35  <TruePikachu> VIM keeps going into visual mode :P
21:25:51  <Zuu> Yep, and then right click and select copy
21:25:59  <Zuu> If you're on windows + gvim
21:26:38  <TruePikachu> I'm on Linux and actual VIM running in a Konsole window :P
21:26:50  <TruePikachu> I saved and LESS'd the output:
21:26:57  <TruePikachu> _____________________<________________________ /Westbound
21:26:58  <TruePikachu> __________________}XX{________________________ /Prioritised passing track
21:26:58  <TruePikachu> __________________>XX_________________________ /Eastbound
21:26:58  <TruePikachu> > One-way path
21:26:58  <TruePikachu> } Two-way path
21:27:03  <Zuu> A problem in OpenTTD is also that the demand fluctates alot. With assymetric demand in an IRL situation it is easier to use a revesible lane as you can keep the same direction the entire morning rush hour and then reverse it before the afternoon rush hour. That said, there is still the problem of making sure drivers are aware of the direction and not using the lane when it is closed before the reversal of it.
21:28:07  <TruePikachu> Oh, in case you're wondering, the 'prioritised passing track' has a 2 way block signal in the middle of itself
21:28:24  <Zuu> Is the passing track long enough that a train will always be able to overtake and join the outer lane at the next junction without disturbing the overtook train?
21:28:45  * TruePikachu wishes YAPF/YAPP looks ahead further
21:29:01  <TruePikachu> Zuu, ?
21:29:29  <Zuu> How often do you have intersections between the outer tracks and the middle track?
21:29:36  <TruePikachu> Not really, but I could pull the path signals back further on the outer...
21:29:50  <Zuu> You would need 20+ tiles or so unelss you have a large speed difference (and low speeds)
21:29:56  <TruePikachu> I usually put these assemblies every 12 tiles
21:30:15  <TruePikachu> It used to be 10, but I spaced
21:30:44  <TruePikachu> It might be easiest to use a LLRR___LLRR
21:31:13  <Zuu> The thing is that the overtaken train need to be able to make a full overtake including joining the outer lane again before the overtook train reaches the place where the overtakning train joins. Otherwise the overtook train will come to full stop.
21:31:33  <TruePikachu> L_L_R_R_____L_L_R_R ?
21:31:44  <TruePikachu> Extra space for prioritising assembelies
21:32:13  <TruePikachu> Wait, I might as well then just L_L_L_____R_R_R
21:32:55  <TruePikachu> brb, have to sharpen a pencil
21:32:56  <Zuu> That would require a tremendiously a lot of space for your intersections if you want to allow trains going from any track to any direction.
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21:33:39  <Zuu> Going for separate LRs in a more mesh structure than having a large ML will probably use less space.
21:34:02  <Zuu> And be far easier to build.
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21:34:21  <TruePikachu> My style is one station, and I send everything there, and spread out the output
21:38:01  <TruePikachu> Zuu, I'll try something like that
21:40:22  <Zuu> If overtaking would work good, then something like LL__RR with overtaking possibilities would be good. However since overtaking don't work good, there is not much point of choosing LL__RR unless you want it for the complicated look.
21:41:07  <TruePikachu> Well, I could prioritise the mainline in a rejoining junction
21:41:23  <TruePikachu> And weight off the passing track in any case
21:42:27  <TruePikachu> But should I use 2 or 3 spaces in the middle of the tracks?
21:42:38  <TruePikachu> You keep putting 2, but what is a good number for it?
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21:58:19  <planetmaker> TruePikachu: the space between tracks is utterly irrelevant
21:58:29  <planetmaker> It only matters somewhat when you add junctions
21:58:55  <planetmaker> and there you place the tracks anyway however they need to go to make the junction work
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