Log for #openttd on 26th June 2010:
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00:01:16  <PeterT> Pwny.
00:04:15  * andythenorth plays the game
00:04:20  <andythenorth> and should now sleep
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05:10:37  <ccfreak2k> Can road vehicles stop at streetcar stations?
05:11:41  <andythenorth> ccfreak2k: yes
05:11:48  <andythenorth> if there is road there
05:22:13  * andythenorth wishes road could overbuild rail and vice versa (for tunnels, bridges)
05:22:29  <andythenorth> I don't mean 'rails on road', I mean 'replace'
05:26:31  <ccfreak2k> Or perhaps...ruby on rails?
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05:40:13  <ccfreak2k> I think there was a jam on my rail network when I wasn't looking.
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05:40:22  <ccfreak2k> All of my passenger and mail trains are late by at least 20 days.
05:40:24  <ccfreak2k> 54 in one case.
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07:43:35  <Andycow> !start
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08:52:47  <andythenorth> is it lame that I prefer a game with (a) no industry closure (b) primary production never falls ?
08:52:54  <andythenorth> it's not how CS intended it :P
08:54:38  <planetmaker> andythenorth: it's not lame
08:54:52  <planetmaker> it's sim city style ;-)
08:55:46  <andythenorth> industry closure / production decrease makes more sense on tiny maps
08:55:53  <andythenorth> not so much on a large map with many industries
08:57:30  <planetmaker> I disagree :-)
08:57:39  <planetmaker> It just needs a different time constant
08:58:11  <andythenorth> planetmaker: I've modified industry_cmd.cpp to have a 35 year protected period :)
08:58:37  <planetmaker> andythenorth: can't you do that in firs?
08:58:39  <planetmaker> I mean...
08:59:08  <planetmaker> ... you don't have to close down things, if you don#t want, do you?
09:00:45  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... ext2 is one of the worst file systems i have ever seen...
09:01:20  <SpComb> it's so popular it has to be
09:01:54  <andythenorth> planetmaker: I can modify closure in FIRS, I just haven't quite got around to it yet :)
09:02:07  <andythenorth> it's going to mean code in maybe....5 places for FIRS
09:02:08  <planetmaker> ok :-)
09:02:12  <andythenorth> it's one constant in the game
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09:04:01  * andythenorth has a cargo class trouble
09:04:36  <andythenorth> FIRS Lumber uses WDPR label.  Not sure why, but FooBar probably did it for a good reason.
09:04:50  <andythenorth> Probably gets us better cargo support from vehicle sets
09:05:03  <andythenorth> But WDPR is defined as Bulk, Piece goods
09:05:22  <andythenorth> Transporting dimensional lumber in hoppers looks wrong :)
09:05:58  <andythenorth> should I define FIRS Lumber 'wrong' (according to original ECS spec)....or should I define new label for Lumber?
09:06:07  <andythenorth> either way someone will say it's wrong :)
09:06:35  <planetmaker> yep. so you're screwed
09:06:41  <planetmaker> :-P
09:07:51  <andythenorth> defining a new label is arguably going to cause redundancy in cargo translation tables
09:08:18  <Rubidium> start a change request process
09:08:35  <Rubidium> don't forget to send mb the request in triplicates on all forms of communication
09:09:02  <Eddi|zuHause> i think last time we discussed this, we got to the conclusion that introducing a new cargo label is not worth the hassle...
09:11:45  <planetmaker> andythenorth: I think the reasoning back then was: wood products could be anything from big pieces of woods to wood chips which qualify as bulk
09:12:25  <Rubidium> guess we should rename "wood products" to "19 inch racks"
09:12:28  <planetmaker> and probably indeed: new labels mean not much support. at least initially
09:12:56  <Rubidium> although that might need some help from SAC
09:13:06  <planetmaker> outch
09:13:16  <planetmaker> that's definitely 5€ in the bad pun pot
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09:14:06  <Eddi|zuHause> no, you just have a too twisted mind :p
09:14:15  <planetmaker> :-) of course
09:14:17  <Eddi|zuHause> or not enough ;)
09:14:29  <andythenorth> planetmaker: wood products definition is fine.  I might try the new label though
09:14:45  <Rubidium> oh noes... only 3 euros left for that pot
09:14:46  <andythenorth> it should get picked up by most sets
09:14:50  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i would just keep the existing one
09:15:12  <andythenorth> nah, it irritates to me be shipping sawn lumber in hoppers
09:15:18  <andythenorth> worth a test at least
09:16:43  <planetmaker> I think you did that test a year ago ;-)
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09:20:43  <Wolf01> 'morning
09:21:37  <Alberth> morning
09:21:46  <frosch123> morning :)
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09:34:29  <Andycow> !start
09:34:51  <SpComb> /kick Andycow wrong chanenl
09:34:51  <Andycow> Well...
09:35:32  <VVG> good day sirs
09:44:25  <planetmaker> good day VVG
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09:52:32  <fjb> Moin
09:53:25  <frosch123> quak fjb
09:53:37  <frosch123> :p
09:53:39  <SpComb> boo
09:53:45  <fjb> Quak frosch123
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10:05:30  * andythenorth ducktypes frosch123
10:06:56  <frosch123> quacking is not sufficient for casting to duck
10:09:21  <andythenorth> if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck....
10:09:40  <andythenorth> I am thinking of adding a HEQS vehicle with 1t capacity
10:09:42  <andythenorth> too small?
10:10:08  <frosch123> plumes?
10:10:46  <VVG> it's should be perfect for end delivery of supplies
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10:13:24  <Andycow> Howdy!
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10:30:20  <planetmaker> [12:09]	<andythenorth>	I am thinking of adding a HEQS vehicle with 1t capacity <-- for what purpose?
10:30:37  <andythenorth> delivering supplies
10:30:49  <andythenorth> rl capacity is 1.5t, so I can go for 1t or 2t :)
10:30:57  <Eddi|zuHause> one guy running around with a hand carriage? :p
10:31:02  <andythenorth> I am thinking of annoy players :)
10:31:23  <VVG> what is annoying in 2t capacity?
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10:31:50  <andythenorth> industries only need 1t of supplies, so it enforces waste :)
10:31:56  <andythenorth>
10:32:06  <andythenorth> should be familiar to some of you...
10:35:03  * andythenorth wonders what the default refit should be for that :)
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10:36:01  <Andycow> bob!
10:37:43  <andythenorth> bob is not a standard cargo :P
10:37:47  <andythenorth> maybe he should be
10:37:58  <andythenorth> Mail will do
10:38:13  <Wolf01> pizza
10:38:48  <Wolf01> 1t of food looks right to me
10:39:12  <Eddi|zuHause> a friend of mine took part in an off-road rallye in romania a few weeks ago. i believe they even won
10:39:49  <Alberth> office materials (goods) :)
10:40:08  <andythenorth> 1t of livestock?
10:40:11  <andythenorth> (goats)
10:40:34  <VVG> paper clips
10:40:53  <Alberth> PRES   (cargo type: president of the tycoon company)
10:41:12  <Alberth> hmm, CEO_  :)
10:41:40  <Alberth> VVG: steel :p
10:41:42  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: btw. i agree with 2t ;)
10:42:00  <andythenorth> 2t it is
10:42:11  <andythenorth> also helps it make money
10:42:12  <Eddi|zuHause> 2t cargo, or 4 crates of goods
10:42:20  <VVG> what about speed?
10:42:22  <Alberth> 2 presidents :)
10:42:58  <Eddi|zuHause> not more than 60km/h ;)
10:43:15  <VVG> THAT sure will be annoying :)
10:43:36  <Eddi|zuHause> well, maybe 80 in later years
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10:45:34  <andythenorth> speed is 32mph
10:46:34  <andythenorth> could increase it
10:47:19  <andythenorth> I'll add another light truck some time.  This one is really for off-road stuff, and we don't have RoadTypes yet :)
10:48:09  <VVG> some yamaha motorbike with 1t capacity and 300 kmh speed on strait highways!
10:48:17  <planetmaker> :-D
10:49:08  <planetmaker> they did a comparison once: that 300km/h motor bike vs. an Opel astra from Hamburg(?) to Munich
10:49:27  <planetmaker> well. The difference was about the order of 30 minutes
10:49:55  <andythenorth> I could include my truck
10:50:06  <andythenorth> 1t capacity on three wheels :)
10:50:07  <VVG> 30 minutes everyday and in a year you can finish 1024 map connecting everything or so!
10:50:08  <planetmaker> on ~700km trip
10:50:54  <VVG> was motorbike slipping inbetween cars when road was clogged in rush hour?
10:51:06  <Eddi|zuHause> i would not classify the A7 as a "straight" highway :p
10:51:45  <Eddi|zuHause> you have 8% grades on there...
10:51:57  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: maybe not. But it's one of the highways with the least speed limits
10:52:56  <Eddi|zuHause> it's one of the oldest highways... newer highways are not allowed to have that kind of grades anymore
10:52:58  <planetmaker> and those 8% near Kassel is only a very short piece
10:53:29  <planetmaker> though a bit dangerous if there's suddenly a truck crawling at 20km/h in front of you...
10:53:30  <Eddi|zuHause> ok... that's probably the only part of the A7 i have been to ;)
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10:54:04  <Eddi|zuHause> between the A38 and the A5
10:54:09  * planetmaker has been driving on it everywhere from Flensburg to MÃŒnchen so far ;-)
10:54:23  <planetmaker> but at very different times
10:54:47  <Eddi|zuHause> well, when i get to the A7, i'm usually on an east-west trip...
10:55:18  <Eddi|zuHause> for north-south trips we have the A9 ;)
10:55:50  <Eddi|zuHause> i had one trip, where i went on each of the odd-numbered highways ;)
10:56:54  <planetmaker> <-- lol? Look at the dates...
10:57:30  <planetmaker> A9 is also not very straight
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10:57:53  <planetmaker> but I doubt you drove on _every_ odd-numbered highways ;-)
10:58:16  <planetmaker> from 1 to what? 391? or even higher
10:58:26  <Eddi|zuHause> no. i meant the 1-digit ones ;)
10:58:39  <Eddi|zuHause> the main highways
10:59:08  <planetmaker> what are 'main' highways in your definition?
10:59:19  <planetmaker> 39? 73?
10:59:29  <planetmaker> or only 1,3,5,7,9?
11:00:15  <planetmaker> oh well :-)
11:00:19  <Eddi|zuHause> there are three classes of highways, the "main" grid with the 1-digit numbers, the "regional" grid with 2-digit numbers, where the first digit denotes the region, and local fillers with the 3-digit numbers
11:01:12  <planetmaker> I don't really think that this distinction is entirely true but just a rough guide
11:01:25  <Eddi|zuHause> odd numbers being north-south and even numbers being east-west
11:01:29  <planetmaker> like the A20 also crosses nearly whole Germany East-West
11:03:21  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know the A20, but i imagine it's along the coast?
11:03:33  <planetmaker> yes
11:03:59  <planetmaker> "Ostseeautobahn". But they're kinda extending it to the North sea afaik
11:04:07  <Rubidium> planetmaker just has to follow the E30 to get to the sea
11:04:19  <andythenorth> anyone fancy patching 'transfer' order so that it defaults to 'transfer and no loading'
11:04:21  <andythenorth> ?
11:06:38  <planetmaker> sounds reasonable, andythenorth :-)
11:09:39  <planetmaker> basically transfer and load is a non-option
11:10:42  <Rubidium> planetmaker: I know someone who will disagree with that
11:11:49  <planetmaker> Where is that desirable to pickup the same stuff again?
11:12:28  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: not forbid it to use transfer-and-load, but make it default to transfer-and-leave-empty, as that is 99% of the use cases
11:12:50  <planetmaker> actually I don't quite see the need for unload
11:12:54  <ccfreak2k> Sounds confusing.
11:13:05  <planetmaker> without unload orders things are unloaded, if accepted
11:13:09  <ccfreak2k> We just have even numbers for horizontal highways and odd for vertical.
11:13:15  <planetmaker> with transfer orders they're unloaded, if ordered to do so
11:13:17  <planetmaker> why unload?
11:13:36  <ccfreak2k> planetmaker, so they don't try to pick their cargo back up?
11:13:40  <planetmaker> possibly to force it out, if conditionally accepted
11:14:07  <planetmaker> ccfreak2k: they don't in either of my two examples, if it's transfer and leave empty
11:14:18  <planetmaker> (what andy just asked for as default)
11:14:41  <ccfreak2k> Well in that case I am for changing the default.
11:14:47  * Eddi|zuHause wouldn't want to go on a "vertical" highway
11:15:17  <ccfreak2k> Eddi|zuHause, just last week I went on a weekend excursion to the moon on one of them.
11:15:18  * Andycow parties like it's 1999
11:15:32  <Eddi|zuHause> Andycow: watching futurama season 1?
11:15:33  * Andycow calls up the local Pizza Hut and orders pizza for Zuu!
11:16:09  * Zuu already had lunch
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11:23:26  * OwenS wishes, even more so, there was a quicker way to make "No unloading" orders too...
11:24:22  <Terkhen> hello
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11:25:46  <Andycow> ajmiles: Nah, morning!
11:26:02  <ajmiles> morning
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11:29:30  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... what's the equivalent of /dev/zero under windows?
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11:31:42  <ccfreak2k> In what context?
11:31:56  <FauxFaux> I don't think there is.  /dev/null only.
11:32:53  <ccfreak2k> At least one win32 build of dd implements an internal version of /dev/null and /dev/zero.
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11:38:54  <Eddi|zuHause> as in "cat /dev/zero > filename"
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11:39:58  <FauxFaux> You want to make an arbitarily big file..?
11:40:35  <planetmaker> hm... let's see whether the quick hack on the orders works :-)
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11:42:42  <Andycow> Today is a good day to join #openttd.
11:42:49  <planetmaker> always
11:42:51  * SpComb^ pokes Andycow with the botstick
11:42:52  <Andycow> SpComb^, this is just too much, okay?
11:43:15  <SpComb^> botsnack
11:44:19  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, might be worth a ban...
11:46:05  * Belugas mumbles about the joy of having a kid who wakes up a dawn
11:46:30  <SmatZ> hello Belugas
11:47:54  <Eddi|zuHause> # Guten Morgen, liebe Sorgen, seid ihr auch schon alle da
11:48:11  <Eddi|zuHause> # Habt ihr auch so "gut" geschlafen? na dann is ja alles klar
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11:55:55  <Eddi|zuHause> # Ich trink mir einen, steig ins Auto, trete voll aufs Gas
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11:56:09  <Eddi|zuHause> # "Enten" jagen macht besoffen doppelt soviel Spaß
11:56:43  <Alberth> Hello Belugas
11:57:20  <Eddi|zuHause> (hm... that might need as explanation: "Ente" [=duck] is the german (kinda dismissive) nickname for the citroen 2cv)
11:57:45  <planetmaker> andythenorth:
12:00:32  <Zuu_> You can do cat some_file.txt >NUL in windows IIRC
12:00:40  <Zuu_> (given that you have installed cat of course)
12:01:10  <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu_: that's the wrong direction
12:01:28  <Eddi|zuHause> and i presume it works with "type" as well...
12:02:02  <Alberth> windows has no cats :)
12:02:15  <Alberth> only types
12:02:34  <Zuu_> well, I have windows and I have 'cat' since I've installed it.
12:03:37  <planetmaker> and frogs have no hair ;-)
12:03:45  <planetmaker> erm...
12:03:46  <Eddi|zuHause> well, if i had windows, i'd also have cat, but i was kinda searching for a (theoretical) native solution
12:03:59  <planetmaker> no reference to any person intended :-)
12:06:03  <welshdragon> Andycow is a bot guys.
12:06:03  <Andycow> I'm afraid, I haven't a clue.
12:06:36  <ccfreak2k> Eddi|zuHause, I copy-pasted your whole German thing verbatim to an Austrian.
12:06:42  <ccfreak2k> To see how he responds.
12:06:51  <Eddi|zuHause> welshdragon: yes, we figured that out after like the third nonsensical mind ;)
12:07:00  <Eddi|zuHause> s/mind/line/
12:07:09  <Eddi|zuHause> (wtf? typo?)
12:07:10  <welshdragon> Eddi|zuHause: you're not going to ban him?
12:07:30  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not the person with op...
12:07:45  <welshdragon> ah
12:09:33  <planetmaker> andythenorth: <-- better version
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12:11:08  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: does that allow changing the load type back to something else?
12:11:54  <planetmaker> yes
12:12:05  <planetmaker> I only change the load type when transfer is selected
12:12:12  <planetmaker> no other checks in other places
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12:15:02  <planetmaker> and that's actually IMHO all it needs
12:15:10  <planetmaker> clicks saved for the most used options
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12:26:04  <Andycow> hehe.  Yes, de_Ghosty: De_Ghosty: Howdy!
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12:30:37  <planetmaker> this bot is annoying
12:30:50  <welshdragon> somebody ban him
12:32:00  <ccfreak2k> Eddi|zuHause, I have gotten a response!
12:32:20  <SmatZ> wasn't there a "no unauthorised bots" rule?
12:32:44  <planetmaker> I guess
12:33:04  <welshdragon> there is
12:34:43  <planetmaker> somehow generally bots other than service bots tend to turn out annoying
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12:35:39  <Andycow> Look Sir, Zuu_!
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12:36:27  <planetmaker> ...
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12:51:29  * Belugas takes another mug of coffee and tries to look interested, while watching the cartoons with kiddo. and waves hello to all the wavers previously active
12:52:32  <Eddi|zuHause> ccfreak2k: so?
12:52:42  <VVG> Why are there no pbs presignals? I mean, someone for sure suggested them, but they are not there for some reason. And that reason is?
12:52:56  <Eddi|zuHause> VVG: they are there.
12:53:16  <fjb> Belugas!
12:53:31  <Eddi|zuHause> VVG: you just need to remove the next signal
12:53:47  <VVG> ?
12:54:09  <Eddi|zuHause> VVG: a presignal is red when the next signal is blocked, right?
12:54:21  <VVG> yep
12:54:27  <Eddi|zuHause> VVG: just remove that next signal, and the first signal stays blocked
12:54:31  <planetmaker> [14:51]	* Belugas	takes another mug of coffee and tries to look interested, while watching the cartoons with kiddo. and waves hello to all the wavers previously active <-- :-) great pretender, you! :-)
12:54:43  <ccfreak2k> Eddi|zuHause, I just thought I'd let you know.
12:54:45  <VVG> i don't get it
12:55:51  <Eddi|zuHause> VVG: there is no reason for the second signal, if a train should not get stuck on it.
12:56:01  <Eddi|zuHause> just remove it.
12:57:09  <VVG> oh
12:57:27  <VVG> i was talking about something different actually :)
12:58:49  <Eddi|zuHause> then you need to learn how to ask the right question...
13:00:58  <VVG> sometimes such an entrance would be usefull if it was possible. Or is it possible and i just don't know how?
13:02:59  <Eddi|zuHause> ah, so you're asking about priority signals...
13:03:44  <Eddi|zuHause> no, that's not going to be included...
13:04:19  <Eddi|zuHause> you can maybe hope for the programmable signals patch to get to such a thing...
13:04:26  <VVG> i guessed as much, just wondering what was the reason
13:05:30  <Eddi|zuHause> VVG: just a side note: how do you imagine that should work? a train coming from _one_ of the main lines would block the branch line train from entering _both_ lines
13:06:22  <Eddi|zuHause> or you need both lines blocked for the branch line train to be affected at all, if only one main line train appears, the branch line train can still access both lanes
13:07:25  <VVG> yep, i put wrong signals on main lines, that should be normal pbs, and middle one should listen for input from combo signals, once one of them is red middle prepbs should allow a train to reserve a path. that's how i imagine it
13:07:32  <andythenorth> planetmaker: I'm afk but I'll look at the stuff  you posted later
13:07:53  <VVG> err, once one of them is green, not red
13:08:53  <planetmaker> andythenorth: it's just your transfer order's pony ;-)
13:09:00  <Eddi|zuHause> VVG: but that is useless... you can't decide which path to reserve based on the state of the combo signals
13:09:45  <Eddi|zuHause> so the path reservation is random, and can still block your oncoming main line train
13:09:54  <VVG> that's for train to decide, signal should only allow a possibility, if a train wants.
13:11:50  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm just saying your setup is useless...
13:13:06  <VVG> it is, with current signals, since pbs and presignals don't interact
13:13:19  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm just saying your setup is useless even with your proposed signal
13:14:48  <VVG> i don't see how it is useless :(
13:18:38  <Eddi|zuHause> i told you: one train on main line, 1 combo red, 1 combo green: train on branch line is allowed to enter, has a 50-50 chance to cut off your main line train, since no restriction on the path can be made
13:19:12  <Eddi|zuHause> the same setup with "normal" priority signals works, as there is another (red) signal inbetween with only slightly more space needed
13:19:42  <lusted_gay> got a train stuck in a tunnel, how do i solve that one?
13:19:48  <lusted_gay> all trains have green lights too
13:20:13  <peter1138> stuck?
13:20:18  <Eddi|zuHause> lusted_gay: what do you mean with "stuck"?
13:20:43  <lusted_gay> that it wont come out in either end, like if there was a "blockage" in the tunnel itself
13:21:32  <Eddi|zuHause> open the train list, and search the train there. it might say something like "waiting for free path"
13:21:51  <Eddi|zuHause> then you're probably missing a signal somewhere
13:21:56  <Eddi|zuHause> or a piece of catenary
13:22:06  <lusted_gay> will do, thanks
13:22:07  <VVG> now i see, that "restriction on the path" thing is what i didn't think about, thought it was magically automated :)
13:23:48  <VVG> wait, ain't it already done? i certainly did saw some of my trains just waiting in front of a pbs signal waiting for a free path in direction of station, while a roundabout loop was free
13:24:19  <Eddi|zuHause> VVG: only reserved paths AHEAD of the train are considere
13:24:32  <Eddi|zuHause> d, not reserved paths backwards
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13:28:41  <VVG> what about this?
13:29:39  <VVG> station in picture is the only thing in trains' order list
13:31:42  <Eddi|zuHause> what about that? pathfinder says the direct path is shorter than the roundtrip
13:31:57  <Eddi|zuHause> so the train waits
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13:33:23  <VVG> doesn't that mean that pathfinder can also say that one path of the prio setup from above is blocked and not allow reserving a path through it? this way prio should work, shouldn't it?
13:33:28  <ccfreak2k> Is this for pre/combo signals or PBS?
13:33:51  <VVG> a mix of them
13:37:24  <Eddi|zuHause> VVG: no, because both paths ahead are exactly the same for the pathfinder. it cannot consider trains coming from behind that haven't reserved a path yet
13:37:58  <Eddi|zuHause> whereas in your station example, the train reservation is already ahed of the train
13:39:09  <VVG> there is no need to consider trains from behind, just read combo signal state. if green - allow reserving, if wanted. if red - don't allow
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13:42:45  <Andycow> Hello :)
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13:47:07  <welshdragon> Andycow: die please
13:47:07  * Andycow looks in the #openttd fridge
13:50:46  <planetmaker> <- I guess licenses are kinda hard to understand...
13:54:14  <fjb> Yes, on the other hand is the GPL awfully long. I prefer a BSD style licnece.
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13:57:41  <legosaft> Small random parts of my monorail tracks disappear randomly in every game I play. Whats the deal with that? (I'm using 1.0.2 on ubuntu)
13:58:43  <ccfreak2k> Goblins are stealing your tiles!
13:59:13  <legosaft> Either that, or I can't find the "Build permanent tracks" checkbox?
13:59:58  <legosaft> If this is a bug that no one has heard of, maybe I'll be better off downloading a slightly older version?
14:00:02  <OwenS> fjb: I tend to take the MPL-style middle road. I do think that for some stuff the ISC license is the best option though
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14:04:39  <Alberth> ufo disaster?
14:06:29  <legosaft> Alberth: You asking me?
14:07:01  <Alberth> that can be a reason why tracks disappear for no apparent reason
14:07:43  <Alberth> but normally it is a lot bigger than a single tile, so how many disappearing tiles are we talking about
14:08:05  <legosaft> We are talking about like a few tiles at a time
14:08:21  <Alberth> hmm, that makes it unlikely
14:08:23  <legosaft> And if I rebuild the tiles, a year or two later there's a good chance the same tiles are gone. Or some tiles close
14:08:42  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that's usually the ufo disaster ;)
14:08:50  <legosaft> But at the same spot all the time?
14:09:08  <Alberth> they like clusters of tracks a lot
14:09:14  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, on big maps with few tightly packed rail lines, it tends to hit the same location
14:09:18  <Alberth> do you have disasters switched on
14:09:28  <legosaft> I see, well this might be the solution then
14:11:03  <legosaft> Maybe I'll actually notice stuff like this if I remove some of the noise from message settings. I've gotten used to completely ignore the ticker at the bottom.
14:11:15  <Eddi|zuHause> if anyone has an algorithm to get a better distribution in choosing from a one-dimensional subset of a two-dimensional space, he may speak forward
14:11:32  <ccfreak2k> Eddi|zuHause, a roulette wheel?
14:11:34  <Eddi|zuHause> you should switch off the ticker
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14:11:56  <legosaft> Well I switched it off for anything but disasters now
14:12:15  <Eddi|zuHause> ccfreak2k: roulette wheel has a one-dimensional distribution, it only looks 2-dimensional...
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14:13:37  <ccfreak2k> Isn't that what you wanted?
14:14:23  <Eddi|zuHause> no... the key point is to have a two-dimensional space
14:14:54  <ccfreak2k> Three roulette wheels, each being on a plane perpendicular to the other two?
14:15:03  <Eddi|zuHause> ccfreak2k: a roulette wheel is too uniform (circle, same width fields) to achieve that
14:15:31  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think you understand the actual problem...
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14:18:52  <ccfreak2k> How about a roulette wheel with smaller roulette wheels within its spaces.
14:19:10  <Eddi|zuHause> you're talking rubbish
14:20:01  <Zuu> planetmaker: Sure, but there are plenty of good simplifications that take up the main points of GPL.
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14:24:01  <VVG> i can't be the only one who wants the prio setup from above. certanly it was explained somewhere why pre-pbs aren't in ottd?
14:24:42  <ccfreak2k> Because PBS will find the best path automagically?
14:24:46  <frosch123> there were pbs presignals which cause a train to reserve a path accross the next signal
14:24:54  <ccfreak2k> Well, find A path.
14:25:55  <Eddi|zuHause> VVG: frosch123 refers to michi_cc's patch, but that works completely different than your idea, and had some problematic points also
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14:25:59  <OwenS> ccfreak2k: If only it were true
14:26:39  <Zuu> IIRC the purpose of the person who implemented YAPP was more oriented towards semi-realistic setups rather than hyper-perfomarce oriented playing.
14:27:06  <Eddi|zuHause> "advance signals" it was called
14:27:48  <OwenS> I do wish there were PBS-pre and PBS-combo signals. Would be quite useful in some circumstances...
14:28:12  * Rubidium points OwenS to #tycoon
14:28:13  <Zuu> If you come up with a good implentation of pre-PBS signals, they might be accepted.
14:28:13  <Eddi|zuHause> VVG: the problem is a) that you are very fixed on the coop-style priorities, so you miss the bigger picture, and b) that it is bad game design to cater for only such a minor situation
14:28:49  <OwenS> Rubidium: I'm aware TTDPatch has it. I'm also aware that TTDPatch is a non-option ;-)
14:29:27  <Eddi|zuHause> imho, if more advanced priority signals should be implemented, it must be in a way that it does not use any more tracks/infrastructure than what the trains actually run on...
14:29:51  <frosch123> :p
14:30:25  <OwenS> Eddi|zuHause: Thats a nice idea, though complex. If there are three tracks merging, how do you designate priority?
14:30:26  <Zuu> It might be possible to build a yield-signal that checks for a big enough gap in the non-yielding approaches.
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14:31:28  <Zuu> However, just identifying the approaches etc. possible taking curves into account (lower max speed of major stream) etc. will make it a large challenge.
14:31:57  <OwenS> Zuu: Slow curves on the priority track are really a non issue; they'll just make it give too much way
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14:32:09  <frosch123> Zuu: don't try to make signals more intelligent than the player
14:32:21  <Eddi|zuHause> OwenS: in the case of "programmable" signals, i'd say "if {tile|track} at {relative|absolute} <position> is {reserved|free|other...} => mark red"
14:32:39  <OwenS> Eddi|zuHause: You could actually do that with progsigs. I should update it to master
14:32:40  <Zuu> OwenS:  The speed of the major road affects the required gap length
14:32:47  <Zuu>  /road/track/
14:32:57  <OwenS> Zuu: Yeah, this is difficult for mixed-train networks
14:33:22  <Eddi|zuHause> OwenS: but like i said before, the example setup of VVG needs additional path restrictions
14:33:43  <OwenS> Eddi|zuHause: When I bring it up to head, I should work on routing restrictions too
14:34:12  <Eddi|zuHause> an other way of designing priorities is a "weak" reservation, and train-based priority which reservation wins out...
14:34:34  <Rubidium> but are weak reservations real?
14:34:50  <Rubidium> we can't ofcourse remove reality from OpenTTD... Belugas would be furious
14:35:02  <OwenS> Eddi|zuHause: Thats difficult if trains have differing priorities at different points
14:35:03  <Eddi|zuHause> e.g: each train/order has a property "lookahead n signals" and "priority X"
14:35:10  <OwenS> Eddi|zuHause: I'll probably move to making programming an extension to all the existing signals though, rather than a special type
14:35:32  <Eddi|zuHause> then the priority of the weak reservation must be stored for each trackbit
14:36:24  <Eddi|zuHause> and if a weak reservation hits another weak reservation with lower priority, that reservation is cancelled, and the appropriate train must stop at the previous signal
14:36:46  <OwenS> I'll have to look at how PBS interacts to see how to make ProgSigs interact with reservations..
14:37:19  <planetmaker> Zuu, there are simplifications. Usually I link to to describe the GPL
14:37:43  <Eddi|zuHause> problems here are a) the space requirements to store reservation, and b) computational complexity of getting the train belonging to a reservation. they must be balanced somehow
14:37:44  <planetmaker> fjb: re licenses: I believe you like BSD more :-P - but it's IMHO in some cases not viral enough.
14:38:05  <OwenS> planetmaker: BSD is not supposed to be viral
14:38:20  <Eddi|zuHause> OwenS: but sometimes one wants the license to be viral
14:38:31  <planetmaker> Though there's the CDDL which kinda came out better concerning collaboration in a multi-license world
14:38:34  <planetmaker> OwenS: I know
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14:38:58  <OwenS> Eddi|zuHause: It's rare that it is in practice a benefit to the project
14:39:08  <Eddi|zuHause> i read about CDDL recently, but the license is very difficult to read for a non-lawyer
14:39:15  <planetmaker> OwenS: not to the project itself, OwenS
14:39:50  <planetmaker> But a BSD license basically allows anyone to sell my work without making the whole thing also accessible
14:40:30  <planetmaker> so people can really use my work to make a profit with it directly. That's not possible with GPL
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14:41:11  <OwenS> planetmaker: To be honest, for applications its not much of an issue. Its when its applied to libraries that it pisses me off
14:41:20  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: which license is not difficult to read for a non-lawyer?
14:41:31  <OwenS> planetmaker: ISC license
14:41:44  <OwenS>
14:41:51  <planetmaker> OwenS: well. No one is forced to use a specific library
14:41:56  <PeterT> Andycow: moo
14:41:57  <Andycow> Moo. Moo.
14:42:04  <planetmaker> I also do understand to put them under a GPL even
14:42:04  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i mean, there was no "easy" to understand summary, what the license is about
14:42:19  <OwenS> planetmaker: Why?
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14:45:04  <OwenS> Placing a license under the GPL means that projects like Mozilla, FreeBSD and OpenSolaris cannot use them. For what benefit?
14:45:43  <planetmaker> it means exactly that, yes. It means that only projects which enforce open source for derivative projects can use it.
14:46:03  <planetmaker> that's what the other licenses don't always require in its entirety. Also not CDDL
14:46:13  <planetmaker>
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14:46:53  <OwenS> And has this helped anyone? All I've seen is it stifle small businesses. It pushes software which would be cross platform to be Windows only, because the cross platform library was not an option for them
14:47:41  <planetmaker> So the other option: let others use the open source ground work on libraries in order to make big $$$ is fine?
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14:48:47  <planetmaker> Why would I programme a library for free which then others use to base their commerical programmes on?
14:48:53  <OwenS> planetmaker: Does it matter? They can use it anyway. Companies have successfully circumented the GPL quite trivially (For example, you build a GPL binary that interfaces with the lirbary, then talk to it over a socket)
14:48:59  <planetmaker> I'm not their extend workbench
14:49:01  <Rubidium> for libraries GPL is in my opinion not suitable
14:49:08  <OwenS> planetmaker: What is wrong with a commercial program using it?
14:49:27  <Rubidium> for applications it's a whole other story
14:49:28  <planetmaker> OwenS: it just depends what you want
14:50:35  <planetmaker> But I don't think it's generally nonsense
14:50:53  <planetmaker> Though I myself might not even chose gpl for a library but possibly lgpl
14:51:50  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: alberth * r20019 /trunk/src/ (console_gui.cpp newgrf_text.cpp): -Codechange: Apply function code style to a few small functions.
14:52:09  <OwenS> Pratcial experience with the LGPL shows that it doesn't actually help. All that happens is you get back useless megapatches which cannot be intergrated
14:52:23  <OwenS> (Though I don't mind LGPL libraries; they're fine)
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15:05:09  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: alberth * r20020 /trunk/src/console_cmds.cpp: -Codechange: _script_file is used in only one function.
15:10:49  <fjb> planetmaker: I strongly dislike virality. The GNU people often think that their stuff is the only thing what matters and every body wants to steell from them. But avery little library is under GPL and so everything you do, how big it is, will have to use the GPL, or you are inventing the wheel over and over again instead of reusing existing libraries.
15:11:31  <planetmaker> fjb: it depends upon how you define virality
15:11:55  <fjb> If you link it, you are infected.
15:12:00  <planetmaker> the GPL one is the strictest and narrow-minded kind
15:12:34  <fjb> And the GLP is that long and complicated that I bet, that not half of the people using it understand it.
15:12:53  <planetmaker> but you could also just require to lay open the work, too. Or like CDDL for the CDDL part only (thus allow several licenses for different code parts)
15:13:03  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: alberth * r20021 /trunk/src/ (console.cpp console_cmds.cpp): -Codechange: Move variable declarations.
15:16:46  <fjb> You have to carefully review every licence if there is no compatibility issue. And reviewing the GPL is a pain especially if you are not a native English speaker.
15:19:07  <Alberth> luckily, you only have to do it once for each license
15:20:11  <fjb> Untill the next project starts. I tend to forget every little detail about a complicated licence. And I'm not a lawyer so I may misinterpret it.
15:22:23  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: alberth * r20022 /trunk/src/ (5 files): -Doc: Add some doxygen comments.
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15:43:00  <VVG> evening
15:43:24  <PeterT> morning
15:43:34  <VVG> thubms up to you :)
15:57:14  <Zuu> VVG: Never though about time zones have you?
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16:00:18  <Zuu> Interesting... The AI debug window broke on a crash message :-)
16:00:35  <Zuu> (broke on == using the berak on string feature)
16:01:44  <Eddi|zuHause> i think it's braked :)
16:02:32  <Eddi|zuHause> break -> broke, brake -> braked
16:05:59  <quietus> what about berak?
16:08:02  <Eddi|zuHause> that may be swedish :p
16:08:47  <VVG> Zuu: i did
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16:09:22  <Andycow> Morning!
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16:29:55  <quietus> !seen quietus
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16:44:55  <PeterT> @help seen
16:44:55  <DorpsGek> PeterT: (seen [<channel>] <nick>) -- Returns the last time <nick> was seen and what <nick> was last seen saying. <channel> is only necessary if the message isn't sent on the channel itself.
16:44:59  <PeterT> quietus: ^
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16:51:23  <fjb> Not quiet enough to get recognized as such.
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17:08:57  <Zuu> mmm - typical swedish food - kebab :-)
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17:19:07  <Zuu> Or as someone said, if you move to sweden you must like thai-food and kebab/pizza as that is all they eat.
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17:19:37  <orudge> reminds me a bit of the UK, where the most popular food, according to various surveys these days, is curry :p
17:19:47  <orudge> with kebabs and pizzas of course being a popular late-night food
17:20:05  <Zuu> Do they have kebab in the US?
17:20:26  <orudge> it's not quite so common, but yes
17:20:27  <Zuu> I was surprising in Vancouver that there were no kebab over there. Or at least not at every street corner.
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17:20:54  <orudge> I've not really come across it myself much in the Twin Cities, at least not in the same way you'd find in the UK
17:21:02  <orudge> they tend to be found more in 'ethnic' areas
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17:35:32  <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: you can't have more döner than the germans :p
17:36:04  <Eddi|zuHause> really, over here they have more döner shops than all other fast food stuff together...
17:36:07  <Zuu> döner?
17:36:14  <Eddi|zuHause> döner kebab?
17:36:23  <orudge> I noticed them being rather popular in Austria
17:36:41  <Zuu> we call it just kebab.
17:36:55  <Eddi|zuHause> we call it mostly döner ;)
17:37:33  <valhalla1w> om nom nom
17:37:34  <Zuu> According to wikipedia, in sweden "The word "kebab" is normally associated with döner kebab made purely from beef or sometimes chicken."
17:38:12  <Eddi|zuHause> in germany it's the law that if it's made of chicken, it may not be called "kebab"
17:38:16  <Rubidium> ah... just wanted to say that the English wikipedia says something slightly different
17:38:25  *** valhalla1w is now known as valhallasw
17:38:46  <Eddi|zuHause> [usually it results in being called "chicken döner"]
17:38:52  <valhallasw> Eddi|zuHause: heh. there was a TV program in NL 6 months ago where they found out one kebab store was actually selling pig meat as kebab
17:38:58  <Rubidium> "kebab with no qualification generally refers more specifically to shish kebab or döner kebab" (where shish kebab is similar to Shashlik)
17:39:27  <Rubidium> valhallasw: one of my favourite programs
17:40:00  <valhallasw> Rubidium: try "De Wilde Keuken", which is quite nice, too
17:40:20  <Eddi|zuHause> it'd be interesting to research if "shish kebab" and "shashlik" are actually etymologically related
17:42:29  <Rubidium> valhallasw: by the looks of it it's the same kind of program (same presenter/tv company); maybe I've even seen a part of it already
17:43:03  <Rubidium> and I thoroughly hated that my two favorite programs of the week would be broadcast at the fracking same time
17:45:22  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: translators * r20023 /trunk/src/lang/ (irish.txt malay.txt unfinished/chuvash.txt):
17:45:22  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:22  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: chuvash - 12 changes by mefisteron
17:45:22  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: irish - 37 changes by Rubidium, tem
17:45:22  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: malay - 94 changes by Syed
17:55:24  <PeterT> Rubidium speaks Irish?
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17:56:13  <valhallasw> Rubidium: not the same presenter, but also RVU, yes :-) Also, uitzending gemist. It's awesome ;)
17:56:54  <Rubidium> valhallasw: Wouter Klootwijk was one of the earliest "Keuringsdienst van Waarde" presenters
17:57:20  <valhallasw> oh? never noticed that
17:57:24  <valhallasw> shame on me
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17:58:40  <Rubidium> valhallasw: (hope that's credible enough as source)
17:59:11  <valhallasw> of course it is
17:59:20  <valhallasw> I appreciate the effort of actually finding a source, btw
17:59:51  <valhallasw> anyway, I'm gone
17:59:54  <Rubidium> ciao
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18:26:14  <lusted_gay> is there any way to use "replace vehicle", but with the same type?
18:26:17  <lusted_gay> (case of aging)
18:26:39  <Ammler> wiki -> renew
18:26:46  <lusted_gay> thanks
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18:28:05  <Ammler>
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18:36:28  <PeterT> !score
18:36:28  <Eoin> FIFA World Cup: United States 0 - 1 Ghana (1st Half)
18:36:34  <PeterT> grr...stupid ghana
18:38:54  <Alberth> ? ghana is doing better than the usa
18:46:37  <PeterT> I know!
18:46:40  <PeterT> *puke*
18:47:15  <Eddi|zuHause> hey, they represent whole africa now ;)
18:47:52  <Eddi|zuHause> and everybody knows that the USA suck in football (soccer)
18:48:29  <Rubidium> yeah, they like handegg more
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18:50:24  <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: just learned, that football _is_ football, only the USA calls is that silly
18:50:40  <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: i know
18:51:14  <PeterT> just for that, I'm rooting for England
18:51:21  <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: technically, it's called "association football"
18:51:36  <Ammler> maybe because they call their own cheating football the same ;-)
18:52:00  <Eddi|zuHause> (to differentiate it from "rugby football" [which is basically an ancestor of "american football"]
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18:55:20  <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: well, their problem is that they can't stand to be not-first. so they have to invent a new sport where they can have a "world champion" after new orleans plays against indianapolis...
18:56:15  <Eddi|zuHause> (in other sports they have usually also canadian teams competing... in their leagues)
19:02:43  <Ammler> hehe, indeed
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19:24:58  <argon> anybody up for a game? :)
19:30:24  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium against Argon... may be a boring game...
19:32:51  <Rubidium> yeah, I'm already bored
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19:34:05  <argon> lol
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19:34:36  <argon> it's based on a heightmap of the americas, with a bunch of GRFs to boot
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19:38:06  <Rubidium> looks like someone tried to evade the American police
19:40:11  <Eoin> xD
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19:47:16  <Eddi|zuHause> 11m
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19:49:51  <welshdragon> ok, so I fail
19:50:11  <welshdragon> I've just installed OpenTTD to a server running CentOS
19:50:16  <welshdragon> and it doesn't run :(
19:55:38  <Ammler> explain "installed"
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19:56:09  <welshdragon> i unzipped the Generic Linux zip file
19:56:13  <Ammler> and more details about "doesn't run"
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19:56:49  <welshdragon> -bash: openttd: command not found
19:56:53  <welshdragon> :P
19:56:56  <welshdragon> simple
19:57:05  <welshdragon> PeterT is fixing it though :P
19:57:24  <Rubidium> that's not quite installing then
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19:57:52  <Ammler> maybe you like to use my rpms:
19:58:32  <welshdragon> ty Ammler
19:58:45  <Ammler> openttd-dedicated it would be
19:59:49  <Ammler> centos has no lzo2
20:00:40  <PeterT> Ammler: which one do I download for welshdragon?
20:01:09  <welshdragon> the Dedicated version :)
20:01:56  <PeterT> <-- I got this one
20:02:01  <PeterT> how do I install it?
20:02:09  <PeterT> you're probably better with Suse/CentOS than me
20:03:01  <Ammler> you could add the repo and then "yum install openttd-dedicated"
20:03:17  <welshdragon> i have no sudo access
20:03:25  <Ammler> or rpm -Uhv url-to-ropm
20:03:27  <welshdragon> doubt I can get it too :(
20:04:19  <Ammler> well, then download the source an run make :-)
20:04:34  <Ammler> or "unrpm" :-)
20:04:55  <fjb> Does OpenTTD have to be installed?
20:05:06  <Ammler> but you might still miss some libs
20:05:10  <PeterT> Ammler: we miss the libs
20:05:17  <PeterT> <welshdragon> i have no sudo access <-- because of this
20:05:38  <IA_Laptop> get back to your own channel :P
20:05:39  <Ammler> tell the admin, what you need
20:05:57  <PeterT> indeed, welshdragon
20:06:09  <PeterT> IA_Laptop: meanie :(
20:06:26  <welshdragon> pff
20:06:33  <welshdragon> Aliens don't belong here
20:11:47  <Alberth> welshdragon: path/to/bin/openttd   then?
20:12:26  <Alberth> although without lzo2, there is not much you can load :p
20:12:56  <Rubidium> Alberth: lzo2 is used for like <= 0.3.0 savegames
20:13:55  <Alberth> oh, modern games is no problem then :)
20:14:10  <welshdragon> yeah
20:14:24  <welshdragon> i'm wanting to run 1.0.2
20:15:16  <Alberth> I'd expect that you need to build from source, as usual binaries use way too new libraries for centos
20:15:40  <welshdragon> heh
20:15:44  <Ammler> well, he could try the binaries from my rpm
20:15:59  <Alberth> does ldd path/to/bin/openttd  give 'not found' like messages?
20:16:03  <Ammler> welshdragon: did you?
20:16:26  <welshdragon> Ammler: ask PeterT
20:16:39  <welshdragon> he's the one who was trying to fix it :P
20:17:12  <Alberth> Ammler: centos uses versions of programs at least 3-5 years old
20:17:30  <Alberth> most linuces are not that compatible
20:17:30  <Ammler> Alberth: the rpm from my repo are built with those
20:17:50  <Alberth> nice
20:18:07  <Ammler> that is why for example, I had to build lzo2 self for it
20:19:01  <Ammler> welshdragon: if all fails, I can build you a zip on centos :-)
20:19:12  <PeterT> Ammler: that would be lovely
20:19:36  <welshdragon> ^ this
20:22:26  <Ammler> ok, it needs some time to run the chroots
20:22:33  <Ammler> triggered it...
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20:44:06  <Ammler> PeterT: welshdragon:
20:44:17  <PeterT> Ammler: Love you
20:44:31  <Ammler> he, yuNw :-P
20:44:39  <welshdragon> i second PeterT's gratitude :P
20:44:43  <Ammler> but still it might miss libs
20:45:09  <Ammler> hmm, I could try to build static, is that possible?
20:45:31  <PeterT> what's static?
20:45:47  <Ammler> the libs in the binaries
20:46:12  <PeterT> do we need the libs to run a server?
20:46:17  <PeterT> what libs are missing?
20:46:21  <PeterT> freetype, liblzo2?
20:46:25  <Ammler> that you can tell me
20:46:47  <Ammler> lzo2 isn't necessary, we learned
20:46:57  <PeterT> yes sir :-D
20:47:11  <Ammler> if it doesn't work, run ldd openttd
20:47:12  <Rubidium> oh... I'm so going to start a server using lzo2 as savegame compression :)
20:47:45  <welshdragon> PeterT: if we need anything doing we're to write a shopping list
20:47:53  <welshdragon> the admin will do it tomorrow :)
20:48:41  <Ammler> freetype isn't needed by the dedi version
20:50:01  <Ammler> but if you can order the admin to install something, then tell him to install openttd-dedicated from my repo
20:50:10  <Ammler> then you have also all needed libs :-)
20:50:24  <PeterT> Rubidium: lol :D
20:50:30  <Ammler> for future own builds
20:51:49  <welshdragon> ok
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20:55:06  <Ammler> ldd:
20:56:41  <welshdragon> Ammler: what's your repo address?
20:57:17  <Ammler> already posted
20:57:45  <welshdragon> the http://obs. link?
20:57:57  <Ammler> no :-)
20:58:03  <Ammler> go more back
20:58:22  <welshdragon> got it
20:59:13  <welshdragon> will ap+ run on CenTOS?
20:59:41  <PeterT> it runs on Linux in general
20:59:53  <welshdragon> link?
21:00:03  <welshdragon> I can then get it installed by the admin
21:00:15  <PeterT> one sec
21:00:19  <PeterT> ap+, no
21:00:23  <PeterT> just ask for tcl and Expect
21:00:35  <PeterT> ap+ gives you source =
21:02:32  <welshdragon> aah, ok
21:03:13  <Ammler> tcllib for centos:
21:03:54  <welshdragon> ty Ammler
21:04:07  <Ammler> everything else you should get from the default repos
21:12:50  * welshdragon runs to get a botsnack
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21:36:03  <Andycow> Morning!
21:36:50  <Rubidium> Andycow: do you really want to stay here? If so, tell me what those things are you use on rail tracks to keep trains from crashing
21:36:51  * Andycow digs a hole
21:37:44  *** mode/#openttd [+o Rubidium] by ChanServ
21:38:56  *** mode/#openttd [+b *!*andypoo@*] by Rubidium
21:38:56  *** Andycow was kicked from #openttd by Rubidium [oh... poor you, falling in your own hole [stupid bot]]
21:42:08  <Vadtec> Rubidium: arent you one of the people in charge of managing the wiki?
21:42:33  <Rubidium> why?
21:43:22  <Vadtec> i wrote an extension to MW a couple weeks ago, dunno if openttd would have a use for it or not,
21:43:34  <Vadtec> just thought id mention it to you in case it could be handy
21:44:35  <Rubidium> I won't need a progress bar for anything I do on the wiki
21:44:49  <Vadtec> well, i meant in general
21:44:57  <Vadtec> no worries, was just offering it
21:46:09  <Rubidium> the wiki is probably (way) too old anyway
21:46:43  <Vadtec> older than 1.15.X?
21:47:05  <Vadtec> err 1.8.X
21:47:28  <Vadtec> afaik, as long as its not older than 1.7.X my code should run on it
21:47:33  <Vadtec> moot point though lol
21:47:50  <Vadtec> eh, anyways, was just a friendly offer
21:53:24  <fjb> Who was that cow?
21:53:45  <devilsadvocate> i guess this is probably the wrong place to ask this, and i really dont want to start a flame war or anything, but could anyone tell me what the difference between ECS and FIRS is, and if either is likely to work with Cargodest? O:)
21:53:50  <Rubidium> fjb: wrong question
21:55:13  <Rubidium> fjb: "what was that cow?" would have been appropriate. The answer to that would be "an unauthorised bot"
21:55:48  <planetmaker> devilsadvocate: it's the same difference between a mercedes and a BMW
21:55:55  <fjb> Ah, didn't sound like a bot, so I wondered.
21:55:56  <planetmaker> most likely both work
21:56:27  <theholyduck> planetmaker, but in reality, both are expensive and suprisingly common?
21:56:59  <fjb> Both are different implementations of the same thing.
21:57:00  <planetmaker> they serve the same purpose. Just with slightly different points emphasized
21:57:08  <devilsadvocate> oh, ok. I wasnt quite sure if cargodest could handle the whole acceptance limit at industry thing from ECS, and i wasnt sure if FIRS had that.
21:57:36  <planetmaker> devilsadvocate: I don't know. And cargodEst is very old. You've to try
21:57:53  <Rubidium> fjb: it replied way too quick with a stupid reply on my quite complex question
21:58:03  <devilsadvocate> oh, sorry, cargodist, i mean
21:58:04  <devilsadvocate> ok
21:58:08  * devilsadvocate goes to try
21:58:50  <Rubidium> fjb: and it hasn't done much more than saying "moo" and "morning" at "random" times (where "morning" was only extremely quick after a join, like within 1 second)
21:58:51  <fjb> Rubidium: That is indeed a strong hint.
21:59:03  <planetmaker> devilsadvocate: FIRS has afaik no acceptance limits
22:00:24  <Rubidium> planetmaker: in any case cargod* doesn't have a clue about cause and effect w.r.t. cargo at industries
22:00:52  <Rubidium> like bringing the same quantity of coal to that factory as iron gives the biggest yield of steel
22:01:04  <andythenorth> FIRS has no acceptance limits
22:01:26  <Rubidium> lies!... everything has acceptance limits
22:01:51  <Rubidium> like that there is no ADSL that doesn't have a download limit
22:02:05  <andythenorth> Rubidium: I stand by my point :P
22:02:09  <andythenorth> FIRS has no acceptance limits
22:02:14  <andythenorth> OpenTTD has acceptance limits
22:02:45  *** Chris_Booth [] has joined #openttd
22:02:45  <andythenorth> objectively, FIRS  (a) was started more recently than ECS (b) comes in only one grf file
22:02:51  <Rubidium> andythenorth: actually, that would be NewGRF imposed limits triggered by FIRS
22:03:03  <andythenorth> hmm
22:03:07  <Rubidium> as you're using a cargo callback
22:03:12  <fjb> PBI's limits annoy me as they are lower than one of my usual trains carries.
22:03:19  *** George [~George@] has joined #openttd
22:03:28  <andythenorth> Rubidium: you're correct.  There *are* acceptance limits in FIRS.
22:03:41  <andythenorth> due to cargo cb
22:03:53  <devilsadvocate> :|
22:03:58  *** George is now known as Guest1251
22:04:06  <Rubidium> and now I'm bored
22:04:27  <andythenorth> I could have carried on arguing.  Would that help?
22:05:14  <andythenorth> acceptance limits are about 65,536 x 8 per month
22:05:38  *** theholyduck [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:05:41  <andythenorth> so about half a million tonnes, approx
22:05:48  <andythenorth> depends on how many other cargos can be delivered
22:05:57  <fjb> Rubidium: Watch that race: Benz 2CNb (45km/h) against Vomag P20f (40km/h). :-)
22:06:41  <Eddi|zuHause> are they dressed as turtles? :p
22:07:10  * Rubidium is so bored he has actually been considering installing some windows + MSCV 2010 in vbox
22:07:25  <Rubidium> but then... procrastination set in
22:07:30  <andythenorth> Rubidium should try writing some nfo.  Never boring
22:07:35  <andythenorth> many things, but not boring
22:07:37  *** Brianetta [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
22:07:45  <Rubidium> andythenorth: did that... got boring
22:07:52  <fjb> No, they are blue and red, so easy to differentiate.
22:08:09  <Eddi|zuHause> my cat is bored as well
22:08:18  *** Brianetta [] has joined #openttd
22:08:29  * andythenorth is short of ways to amuse rubidiums and cats
22:08:44  * Rubidium wonders whether he sounds like Marvin
22:08:45  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: did it already turn grey?
22:08:47  * andythenorth finds a picture of a big truck helps most situations
22:09:09  <andythenorth> devilsadvocate: did you make a choice of ECS / FIRS yet?
22:09:16  <Eddi|zuHause> "nachts sind alle katzen blau"
22:09:40  *** Guest1185 [~George@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:10:43  * fjb wonders what Eddi|zuHause feeds his cat.
22:13:09  <Terkhen> good night
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22:13:35  <devilsadvocate> andythenorth, well, i've been playing ECS for a while now. I have a bad feeling about how it'll behave with cargodist, so i think i'll switch to FIRS soon now that i have cargodist compiled and basically working
22:14:10  <andythenorth> haven't tested with cargodist, other people have
22:14:22  <andythenorth> you might get some strange behaviour with 'supplies'
22:14:30  <andythenorth> but otherwise it should be fine
22:15:32  <fjb> It is worklíng fine with cargodist.
22:16:08  <Eddi|zuHause> cargodist and ECS shouldn't be a huge problem, as long as you balance the route capacities appropriately
22:17:07  <Eddi|zuHause> cargodist helps distributing vehicles/*supplies
22:18:03  <Eddi|zuHause> problem of cargodist is that it doesn't respond quickly to network restructurings/extensions, but that is independent from ECS/FIRS
22:18:46  <Eddi|zuHause> cargodest was better there. because network changes were instant, but it couldn't do load balancing
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22:42:50  <andythenorth> bedtime
22:42:53  <andythenorth> good night
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22:43:54  <PeterT> yes, that's how a bouncer works...
22:44:19  <welshdragon> hmm?
22:44:40  <PeterT> he has a bouncer, but he parts the channels before leaving
22:44:42  <PeterT> how silly
22:46:03  <welshdragon> i'm sure there is a reason
22:54:09  <Wolf01> 'night
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22:56:16  <Eddi|zuHause> he doesn't know how to use the bouncer log anyway :p
22:57:27  <PeterT> hehe :D
22:57:32  <PeterT> it's not hard
22:57:44  <PeterT> /znc setbuffer #openttd,#openttdcoop.devzone 1000
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23:08:05  <fjb> PBSs are saving a lot of virtual lives.
23:09:23  <Eddi|zuHause> there was a time where they were causing a lot of loss of these :p
23:12:29  <fjb> I didn't know the game in that times.
23:16:55  <Eddi|zuHause> also, rail crossings on double tracks are death traps
23:17:06  <Eddi|zuHause> especially with articulated vehicles
23:18:44  <fjb> Yes, and breakdowns on the rail are also not advisable.
23:21:05  <Eddi|zuHause> also not advisable: road crossing directly in front of station where trains turn around :p
23:23:43  <fjb> One of the AIs and I have a competing bus line which croses one of my railway lines in a town.
23:29:37  *** valhallasw [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:29:46  <fjb>
23:33:49  <Eddi|zuHause> you have really few signals...
23:34:20  *** Chruker [] has quit []
23:34:35  <Eddi|zuHause> but i hate road grids...
23:35:57  <fjb> Trains longer than a block length are looking very strange. And the street layout was random. Changed that because I also dislike the grid.
23:36:52  <ccfreak2k> I like the grid layout.
23:36:57  *** Zahl [] has quit [Quit: *schiel*]
23:38:24  <fjb> It gets annoying when you are building something exactly on that grid.
23:38:35  <fjb> not exactly
23:39:17  <ccfreak2k> That's why I plan ahead.
23:39:40  <Eddi|zuHause> i really miss diagonal level crossings...
23:41:44  <fjb> And then an AI builds a long road to connect some towns... That will usually interfere with the grid. Another thing are mountains.
23:42:04  <fjb> Diagonal level crossings would be helpful.
23:43:56  <fjb> My screenshot shows some of the grid problems.
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23:44:09  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, i wondered about that double road...
23:44:38  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe the town grid could try to adjust to existing roads...
23:44:46  <fjb> The double road is one. I made a highway for the bus race out of it.
23:45:16  <fjb> The town grid would change from block to block then.
23:45:40  <Eddi|zuHause> i mean it should just not build a road if one is already next to it.
23:46:01  <Eddi|zuHause> the code for that is already in the original/better road pattern
23:46:03  <fjb> Second problem is the short double road at the wood station at the lower corner of the screen shot.
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