Log for #openttd on 28th June 2010:
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00:02:30  <Smoovious> is it possible to configure the size of the grassy edge of the land in the desert scenario? make it thicker? (during world creation)
00:03:26  <Eddi|zuHause> you mean the distance between water and desert?
00:03:35  <Smoovious> yep
00:03:49  <Eddi|zuHause> i suspect somewhere in "genworld" files
00:03:51  <Smoovious> 2048x2048 map, it seems too thin
00:04:09  <Smoovious> I mean, without re-compiling
00:04:11  <Eddi|zuHause> of course i mean source code changes
00:04:20  <Smoovious> grin
00:04:24  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think it's configurable (yet)
00:04:31  <Smoovious> okee...
00:05:01  <Smoovious> I do like the new open graphics set that is available now... very nice
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08:24:14  <planetmaker> peter1138: even the two pseudo-random bits with rail types are worth gold :-)
08:26:03  <peter1138> arrrrr too hot
08:26:15  <peter1138> planetmaker, well, i did add them for a reason ;)
08:26:33  <planetmaker> sure :-)
08:26:46  <planetmaker> But I haven't seen them used and just gave it a shot... awesome
08:26:55  <planetmaker> like having a variety of fences around
08:27:12  <planetmaker> or allowing to smooth-out the introduction year for modern level crossings or tunnel portals
08:27:23  <peter1138> i hadn't ever used them either, heh
08:28:50  <planetmaker> as such it can even be argued to be 'realistic' (for those who like these things): old constructions are updated over time...
08:30:16  <peter1138>
08:30:23  <peter1138> getting worse...
08:32:50  <Rubidium> videocard messing up?
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08:33:56  <planetmaker> eh... screenshot of dead pixels? ;-)
08:39:00  <peter1138> yeah
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09:34:39  <VVG> hello
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11:46:40  <Ammler> somone on our stable server needs 1% of his cpu while the server needs 90% :-(
11:47:03  <peter1138> heh
11:47:12  <peter1138> overclocked core i7?
11:47:15  <Ammler> there are still huge differences on new cpus :-)
11:47:19  <Ammler> peter1138: yes
11:47:52  <peter1138> welcome stable?
11:47:59  <Ammler> i7 930, OC to 4ghz <--> Intel(R) Xeon(TM) CPU 3.20GHz
11:48:01  <peter1138> i dunno which servers you have :)
11:48:07  <peter1138> hmm
11:48:10  <peter1138> p4 xeon?
11:48:16  <Ammler> yes, but virtual
11:48:37  <peter1138> as opposed to core2 based xeon
11:48:38  <Ammler> still also my client uses 60%
11:48:54  <peter1138> and my server's a measily 2 * 2.4GHz P4 Xeon
11:49:03  <peter1138> lots of ships on that map
11:49:12  <Ammler> ntel(R) Core(TM)2 CPU         T5600  @ 1.83GHz
11:49:32  <Ammler> yes, if he pauses the ships, the server cpu dropps to 70% :-)
11:49:37  <peter1138> cpu 48%... but that'll be ~100% of one core
11:49:53  <peter1138> 2 * 2.8GHz Athlon 64
11:50:30  <peter1138> 2096... new game!
11:50:48  <peter1138> at least if the server is overloaded, then i went get kicked off for being too slow :)
11:50:54  <Sacro> UKRS?
11:50:54  <peter1138> *won't
11:51:06  <peter1138> NARS 2
11:51:18  <Ammler>
11:51:35  <peter1138> hmm, landscaping!
11:51:55  <Ammler> well, at least he needed to click once per tile :-)
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11:52:57  <ccfreak2k> If the CPU is overclocked, is it really right to put it in the "stable" list?
11:53:34  <planetmaker> the server certainly isn't overclocked
11:53:37  <Ammler> ccfreak2k: you mean we shall ban clients which join with oced cpus?
11:54:00  <ccfreak2k> Also interesting screengrab of utter devistation.
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11:54:22  <ccfreak2k> It's like Washington.
11:54:23  <peter1138> ccfreak2k, it's all flat land now
11:54:29  <peter1138> with a horrible 2x2 road grid over it
11:54:40  <peter1138> bloody landscaping abusers ;(
11:54:42  <Ammler> well, such things happen on a late game
11:54:46  <ccfreak2k> Oh so it's like California.
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11:55:10  <Ammler> people get bored...
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12:15:03  * MeCooL hi
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12:43:34  <Belugas> helloo
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13:09:08  <PeterT> morning Belugas
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13:15:20  <Belugas> morning to you too, PeterT :_
13:15:27  <Belugas> hum...
13:15:28  <Belugas> :)
13:15:30  <Belugas> there
13:15:32  <PeterT> :-D
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13:51:55  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20028 /trunk/src/os/windows/ -Fix: trunk Windows binaries still had a 1.0.0.xxxxx version number
13:52:22  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20029 /trunk/projects/determineversion.vbs: -Fix: the 64 bits TortoiseSVN wasn't always properly detected
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16:10:50  <Belugas> 2-1.  bye slovakia. was it a good match?
16:11:16  <Rubidium> given that result: no!
16:18:33  <Illegal_Alien> For me: Yes!
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16:21:31  <Belugas> ha...
16:21:55  <Belugas> so the experts disagree :)
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17:16:04  <Wolf01> hey
17:16:34  <Rubidium> hi (and a pre-emptive goodbye)
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17:18:45  <SmatZ> Rubidium: you are not happy The Netherlands won?
17:19:09  <Wolf01> :O my father discovered the peltier.... I told him that it is being used for ages on pc heatsinks...
17:19:34  <SmatZ> discovered?
17:19:49  <Wolf01> yes, discovered, he discovers, don't find
17:19:53  <SmatZ> :)
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17:20:36  <SmatZ> I can't say I understand how that can work
17:20:37  <Wolf01> as soon I come home, he started with "peltier" "solar panel" etc...
17:20:43  <SmatZ> but I never tried to understand it...
17:20:54  <Rubidium> SmatZ: why would I? Now the NL plays during rush hour which means earlier rush hour which means I'm going to be stuck in rush hour
17:21:49  <Wolf01> I told him the peltier is like a dynamo: it is the same of an electrical motor, but it does it's best at transforming power into heat and not vice-versa
17:22:53  <Wolf01> 25W to keep a temperature of 12°C... maybe he wandered to use a coffee cup to run a laptop...
17:23:20  <SmatZ> :)
17:27:43  <peter1138> peltiers were mentioned a lot 10-15 years ago
17:27:51  <peter1138> less so now
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17:32:14  <peter1138> probably because modern cpus run too hot for them
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17:44:05  <valhallasw> afaik peltiers use up something like 1.5 times the power they transfer
17:44:43  <valhallasw> and with a processor that already uses 130W...
17:47:46  <peter1138> yeah
17:49:00  <Wolf01> the problem is: 1) peltier sinks are inefficient with low power systems because you don't have enough power to have the right air convection, and with high power systems they heat (and eat watts) already too much
17:49:02  <valhallasw> peltiers are only really useful as temperature stabilizers
17:49:19  <planetmaker> peltier elements are no heat sinks. Just heat transfer devices
17:49:30  <planetmaker> in all cases
17:49:32  <valhallasw> aye
17:49:44  <Wolf01> yes, I know it's only for abbreviation
17:49:53  <valhallasw> quite useful for keeping a CCD at -40 celcius, though :-)
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17:50:02  <planetmaker> very much indeed :-)
17:50:18  <andythenorth> evening
17:50:28  <planetmaker> actually also for providing a near-arbitrary temperature profile on a surface
17:50:34  <planetmaker> hi andythenorth
17:50:43  <valhallasw> yep
17:50:57  <planetmaker> we have some with 80K and 2 Hz :-D
17:51:33  <planetmaker> 80K peak-to-peak
17:51:33  <valhallasw> you're using a peltier to cool something down to 80K?!
17:51:37  <valhallasw> ah
17:51:42  <planetmaker> variation :-)
17:51:50  <planetmaker> around ~room temperate
17:51:53  <valhallasw> ah, rihgt
17:52:20  <valhallasw> although I cannot think of many materials that are able to actually transport that 2Hz temperature change :p
17:54:14  <planetmaker> internally water-cooled
17:55:58  <planetmaker> and they're hand-selected elements from the assembly-line ;-)
17:56:21  <planetmaker> or maybe even their research lab, I'd bet
17:56:29  <valhallasw> heh
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18:14:23  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r20030 /trunk/src/network/core/os_abstraction.h: -Fix: MSVC 2010 defines more POSIX error constants that we define as well.
18:14:34  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r20031 /trunk/ (.gitignore .hgignore): -Fix: git and hg didn't ignore the generated windows RC file.
18:24:46  <Terkhen> hello
18:25:12  <Rubidium> evening Terkhen
18:26:55  <Terkhen> someone wants to do an exam about concurrent programming for me?
18:27:51  <Rubidium> it's a long time ago I did that
18:28:18  <Rubidium> so the question is, how hard is it... does my current knowledge still suffice?
18:28:59  <Belugas> my only knowledge of concurrent programming is having another colleague working on the same stuff as me
18:32:27  <Terkhen> concurrent code correctness, petri networks, stuff like that
18:32:56  <Terkhen> I've been avoiding this subject for years :)
18:33:13  <Rubidium> smells proofish... in that case: not that good on the subject
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18:38:14  <Terkhen> I'll have to learn it then :P
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19:07:45  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: glx * r20032 /trunk/projects/ (18 files): -Add: MSVC 2010 project files
19:07:58  <PeterT> MSVC 2010 needs different project files?
19:08:04  <__ln__> of course
19:08:22  <valhallasw> not many changes though
19:08:36  <glx> totally different format
19:08:40  <valhallasw> or rather, the projects I converted only had a 5 changed to 6
19:08:47  <valhallasw> or something like that
19:09:15  <glx> it uses MSBUILD format now
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19:13:07  <PeterT> glx: what format did it use before?
19:13:17  <PeterT> and why must Microsoft change *everything*? D:
19:13:26  <glx> new format is better
19:13:50  <valhallasw> PeterT: it doesn't. vs2k10 can use a format very similar to 2k8
19:14:06  <valhallasw> they don't*
19:14:18  <valhallasw> but better systems are always good
19:14:31  <glx> valhallasw: vcxproj format is different than vcproj
19:15:11  <valhallasw> oh, right
19:15:24  <valhallasw> never realized that
19:15:26  <glx> maybe for csproj it's the same ;)
19:15:40  <PeterT> they just add x to everything
19:15:41  <PeterT> dox
19:15:44  <PeterT> *docx
19:15:46  <PeterT> pptx
19:15:46  <peter1138> vs2100 and vs2800?
19:15:56  <valhallasw> PeterT: this X is for c++, not for 2k10 :p
19:16:01  <valhallasw> at least, I think so
19:16:10  <PeterT> valhallasw: I don't think so
19:16:14  <valhallasw> yeah, I was thinking about csproj and thought other project files were the same
19:16:19  <PeterT> *.vcxproj and *.vcproj
19:16:23  <Bluelight> I better play some OpenTTD while Minecraft is down.. :p
19:16:40  <valhallasw> oh, you're right again
19:16:46  <valhallasw> maybe I should just shut up then :p
19:17:20  <peter1138> 4k7℩ = 4700℩
19:17:22  <peter1138> etc
19:17:24  <peter1138> pom te pom
19:18:03  <Rubidium> valhallasw: x is because that's microsoft's scheme... take a file extension, add an x and use that for everything released after 2008
19:18:21  <Bluelight> What is "Download nightly (r20028)"?
19:18:31  <valhallasw> so, where's my csxproj? :-(
19:18:33  <valhallasw> I feel left out.
19:18:56  <valhallasw> csprojx. right.
19:19:27  <valhallasw> at least, that gives some google results :P
19:19:37  <PeterT> Bluelight: what do you mean, "What is it?"?
19:20:28  <Rubidium> I don't fancy c-hash
19:20:37  <Rubidium> or anything .NET related
19:20:55  * valhallasw likes WPF
19:21:34  <Bluelight> nightly (r20028).. I don't know what it is..
19:21:37  <Rubidium> Bluelight: it's the automated (every night) compile of OpenTTD's development version
19:21:50  <Bluelight> Ohh.. Cool!
19:22:04  <Bluelight> Have you guys heard about Minecraft?
19:22:17  <Rubidium> yes
19:22:36  <blathijs> Hmm, 404's :-S
19:22:40  <Bluelight> Cool.. What do you think about Infdev?
19:22:49  <PeterT> blathijs: <Bluelight> I better play some OpenTTD while Minecraft is down.. :p
19:22:56  <Eoin> indev is wni
19:22:59  <Rubidium> never heard of that
19:23:01  <Eoin> win*
19:23:02  <Bluelight> Yeah he did an error in the website.. He say he will fix it when he gets home..
19:23:08  <Eoin> indev is the paid version
19:23:20  <blathijs> PeterT: Ah :-)
19:23:24  <PeterT> :D
19:25:01  <Bluelight>     - It's really cool! When it's working.. :) He does some errors from time to time, but I hope Notch start on multiplayer soon..
19:25:50  <Bluelight> Hmm.. Maybe I should try to fire up my server hardware..
19:26:04  <Bluelight> Does anyone know if I need both PSU's?
19:26:31  <Bluelight> Proliant two 400W PSU's.. :p
19:26:40  <blathijs> Bluelight: I think Proliants complain when just one is connected
19:27:04  <Bluelight> Ohh, really?   Hmm..
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19:27:10  <blathijs> meaning you'll have to press F1 to continue or something (at least or DL380G1 did, which was quite frustrating when it was in the datacenter :-p)
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19:27:25  <Bluelight> He he..
19:27:26  <Rubidium> Bluelight: you should ask my university's former sysadmin about how to fire up Proliants; he was quite good in that
19:27:28  <blathijs> I think newer proliants have an option to disable the F1 press on errors
19:27:37  <blathijs> Rubidium: PP ?
19:28:35  <blathijs> Rubidium: Or are you referring to the guy that torched TWRC?
19:28:41  <Rubidium> blathijs: the latter
19:28:46  <blathijs> :-)
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19:29:16  <blathijs> Yeah, I guess he fired up tens or maybe even hundreds of Proliants then :-)
19:30:06  <Bluelight> Wow
19:30:15  <Bluelight> But now I don't remember my FTP login.. :p
19:30:33  <Bluelight> I just build a new computer and all my files is on another HDD.. :(
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19:31:55  <Bluelight> Ok, I will try with two PSU's then, but does it use 800W then? Or does it just use one of the PSUs even though two are connected?
19:32:14  <Rubidium> it'll definitely use more than 1 PSU
19:32:29  <Rubidium> although unlikely the 800W
19:32:43  <Rubidium> because if it did, then it wouldn't be able to run on one PSU
19:33:18  <blathijs> It also depends a bit on the hardware in there (and if scaling etc. is supported)
19:33:21  <Rubidium> and given it's a server, lots of monies are spent making it efficient instead of cheap to reduce the heat stuff
19:33:50  <blathijs> with newer hardware, it will do scaling and probably not come close to the 400W with a single PSU
19:34:47  <blathijs> (OTOH, older hardware, like my DL360G3 with a PIII CPU doesn't support fancy stuff and thinks it's a sport to maximize the PSU utilization by draining a constant 185W out of the 180W PSU...)
19:39:34  <valhallasw> with current power costs upgrading might actually be cost-efficient ;)
19:40:32  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r20033 /trunk/ (.gitignore .hgignore): -Fix: gitignore and hgignore had more missing/wrong entries.
19:41:05  <blathijs> valhallasw: Yeah, I'm considering buying a Dell R210, which is know to only use 30-40W
19:41:32  <blathijs> valhallasw: I think that would save me around EUR 500 per year or something
19:41:50  <blathijs> (My hoster charges per kWh used)
19:42:53  <valhallasw> yeah
19:43:24  <valhallasw> and your PIII probably is a 2U server?
19:43:34  <blathijs> I'd lose my iLO then, though (since I can't afford a new server with iLO / DRAC / IPMI / whatever
19:43:40  <blathijs> valhallasw: No, it's 1U
19:43:51  <blathijs> valhallasw: The DL380G2/G3 are 2U
19:43:56  <valhallasw> ah
19:44:23  <Bluelight> I have DL380 G3, and goddamn it makes noise..
19:44:39  <blathijs> hehe, that's why they invented datacentres :-p
19:44:47  <Bluelight> I can't have this running in my home, lol
19:44:50  <valhallasw> haha
19:45:02  <valhallasw> I have two old physics simulation cluster servers
19:45:11  <Rubidium> at least you won't be losing your server if it makes that much noise
19:45:33  <valhallasw> they are noisy and use way too much power
19:45:47  <blathijs> Yeah, old servers have that :-)
19:45:59  <valhallasw> 2x athlon 1667. Very useful for heating though.
19:46:35  <Rubidium> cooling paste is good for (over)heating as well
19:47:31  <Bluelight> First time I run it now, but I don't have WMware EXS server password, lool
19:47:54  *** DDR [] has joined #openttd
19:47:57  <Bluelight> What is WMware ESX?
19:48:00  <Rubidium> maybe you have it but make too many typos tying is
19:48:13  <planetmaker> Bluelight: a mis-spelt VMWare ESX
19:48:23  <Rubidium> s/s$/t/
19:48:27  <Bluelight> He he..
19:48:30  <Bluelight> What is it?
19:48:39  <Bluelight> Is it expencive?
19:48:44  <planetmaker> yes
19:48:56  <planetmaker> a virtualization software
19:48:59  <Bluelight> And I don't have the password.. He he..
19:49:13  <Bluelight> Damn
19:49:45  <Rubidium> you bought it from some company with VMware ESX still installed?
19:50:10  <Bluelight> Yeah
19:50:32  <blathijs> sloppy
19:50:33  <Bluelight> Man I can't hear what I'm thinking with this thing running..
19:51:13  <Bluelight> Is there a way to log in without the password?
19:52:12  *** ajmiles2 [~aj@] has joined #openttd
19:53:07  <Bluelight> What does the virtualization thingy do?
19:53:19  <Bluelight> Do I need it?
19:53:31  <blathijs> Bluelight: It allows runing multiple "virtual" servers on a single server
19:53:40  <Bluelight> Cool
19:53:47  <valhallasw> but if you don't know what it is, you probably don't need it :-)
19:53:57  <Bluelight> Now I know what it is..
19:54:08  <blathijs> Yeah, but you can do without it just as fine (there's also a bunch of free softwares that do something similar)
19:54:09  <Bluelight> But I thought WMware was free..?
19:54:19  <blathijs> There's multiple versions of VMWare
19:54:31  <blathijs> I think ESX is the professional version
19:54:39  <Bluelight> Ok, can you explain the variations please?
19:54:39  <blathijs> There's also ESXi, which might be free
19:54:46  <blathijs> Bluelight: Just google a bit
19:54:49  <Bluelight> Ok
19:54:51  <blathijs> I don't know them either
19:54:55  <Bluelight> Thank you.. :)
19:55:18  <blathijs> but if you just want to get started with the server, you should probably just overwrite the ESX installation with a new OS
19:58:22  *** ajmiles [~aj@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:58:27  <Bluelight> So! How bout Linux?
19:59:00  <valhallasw> Nah. Just use Windows Server.
19:59:03  * valhallasw runs ~/o/
19:59:12  <Bluelight> Do I need command line skillls to run a Linux OpenTTD?
19:59:46  <Bluelight> I don't want Microsoft.. :p
20:02:27  <planetmaker> hm... rail types and tram tracks don't like eachother :-(
20:04:19  <blathijs> Bluelight: Then go experiment with Linux :-)
20:05:05  * MeCooL :)
20:06:25  <PeterT> Bluelight: do you play OpenTTD from command line?
20:06:27  <PeterT> :p
20:07:21  <Bluelight> No, I play it on Windows XP, but I want to host with Linux.. And I will host a TeamSpeak server too.. And Minecraft multiplayer when it gets out..
20:08:33  <PeterT> well, hosting
20:08:40  <PeterT> indeed so, you need command line skills
20:12:28  <planetmaker> Bluelight: then have fun without command line ;-)
20:13:39  <Bluelight> without?
20:15:55  *** Phoenix_the_II [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
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20:20:43  *** phalax [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
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20:40:15  <welshdragon> Ammler: you around?
20:43:48  <welshdragon> or in fact: anybody:
20:44:07  <Rubidium> @seen anybody
20:44:07  <DorpsGek> Rubidium: I have not seen anybody.
20:44:20  <welshdragon> openttd-dedicated requires openttd-opengfx
20:44:20  <welshdragon> openttd-opengfx requires openttd
20:44:20  <welshdragon> openttd conflicts with openttd-dedicated
20:44:31  <planetmaker> sounds sensible
20:44:42  <Rubidium> planetmaker: it doesn't
20:44:53  <planetmaker> unless you rename binaries
20:44:57  <welshdragon> (this is from the server admin who is trying to install openttd-dedicated on CentOS)
20:45:00  <Rubidium> unless openttd-dedicated provides openttd
20:45:16  <planetmaker> yes
20:45:18  <planetmaker> true
20:45:19  <glx> blame centos maintainer ;)
20:45:27  <planetmaker> which is Ammler ;)
20:45:30  <welshdragon> haha
20:45:43  <planetmaker> or at least OpenSuSE. But he provides afaik the rpms
20:45:56  <welshdragon> yes, he does
20:46:20  <Ammler> [22:44] <welshdragon> openttd-opengfx requires openttd <-- that is wrong
20:46:25  <Ammler> should be openttd-data
20:46:39  *** Goulpy [] has joined #openttd
20:46:58  <welshdragon> that's what i was told
20:48:16  <Ammler> <-- I see no require openttd
20:48:27  <Ammler> I assume, you mix repos
20:48:43  <welshdragon>  i gave him the address you gave me :P
20:49:28  <Ammler> the official rpms might have such config
20:49:38  <welshdragon> Ammler: there is the package openttd-data
20:49:52  <Bluelight> Is Server version of Ubuntu any good?
20:50:03  *** tokai [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:50:39  <Ammler> welshdragon: my repo doesn't have package openttd-opengfx
20:51:00  <welshdragon> Ammler: i'm not disputing that
20:51:01  <Ammler> so obviously you mix official repos with my repos
20:51:05  <welshdragon> no no
20:51:34  <welshdragon> openttd-dedicated requires openttd-opengfx
20:51:34  <welshdragon> openttd-opengfx requires openttd
20:51:35  <welshdragon> openttd conflicts with openttd-dedicated
20:51:52  <welshdragon> There's a broken package somewhere
20:52:12  *** tokai [] has joined #openttd
20:52:15  *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai] by ChanServ
20:53:29  <Xaroth_> lol
20:53:33  <Ammler> hmm, I am not aware someone else is building openttd-dedicated
20:53:42  *** Muxy [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:53:58  <welshdragon> Ammler: this is from
20:53:58  <Ammler> and my openttd-dedicated doesn't require openttd-opengfx
20:54:22  <welshdragon> hm
20:54:39  <Ammler> do you see openttd-opengfx there?
20:57:13  *** Narcissus [] has joined #openttd
20:57:15  <Narcissus> uhh Ammler
20:57:30  <Narcissus> welshdragon: wanted me to talk to you
20:57:34  <welshdragon> :P
20:58:31  <__ln__> planetmaker: you haven't sent payment details yet, have you? (just checking)
20:58:36  <welshdragon> Ammler: Narcissus is the server admin who is installing the dedicated server
20:59:25  <Narcissus> s/server admin/mug/
20:59:25  *** Eddi|zuHause [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:00:02  <Ammler> Narcissus: maybe you install the devel tools and let them build openttd :-)
21:00:17  <Ammler> openttd-dedicated works fine here
21:00:29  <Ammler> there is no openttd-opengfx in my repo
21:01:09  <Narcissus> Ammler: Deutsch?
21:01:27  <Ammler> dann aber query :-)
21:01:55  <Narcissus> 1 moment bitte
21:04:18  <Bluelight> Is Server version of Ubuntu any good? Does it have a user interface or is it commandline too?
21:04:42  <__ln__> commandline is a user interface.
21:07:26  *** Phoenix_the_II [] has joined #openttd
21:07:32  <valhallasw> it's impossible to configure a linux server without editing config files
21:07:51  <valhallasw> and it doesn't really add anything, anyway
21:08:18  <valhallasw> if there is any graphical program you insist on using, just use SSH with X-tunneling
21:08:21  <valhallasw> works like a charm
21:08:52  <valhallasw> and yes, I very much like ubuntu's server edition
21:09:59  <valhallasw> more than debian - although comparing a fresh ubuntu install to a five-year-old-but-updated debian install might not be fair
21:12:11  <Rubidium> I'm not that sure about security for Ubuntu though
21:12:42  <Rubidium> only a very small set of packages they deem important, the rest is up to the users to keep secure
21:13:14  <Rubidium> whereas in Debian the security team cares about all packages
21:14:38  <Rubidium> e.g. I made patches for 4 different "old" versions of Ubuntu for security stuff which they left open for many months and then seemingly just dropped
21:15:32  <Rubidium> Debian has a patched 0.6.2 in their stable release; it might be old, but it at least is "maintained"
21:17:46  *** Progman [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
21:19:07  <valhallasw> Ubuntu doesn't care about old releases, I think
21:19:20  <valhallasw> and, realistically, Debian only does that for its Stable release
21:19:40  <Rubidium> for their officially supported stable releases, yes
21:19:43  <valhallasw> yeah
21:20:13  *** sparr [] has joined #openttd
21:21:01  <Rubidium> point is, Ubuntu doesn't even seem to "care" for their current release
21:21:33  <Ammler> quite stupid to patch 0.6.2 instead simply using new stable
21:21:53  <Bluelight> Hmm..
21:22:01  <Rubidium> Ammler: it's not that stupid
21:22:15  <Ammler> yeah, it's debian ;-)
21:22:30  <Bluelight> BRB
21:22:34  *** Bluelight [] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.6/20100625231939]]
21:23:13  <Rubidium> Ammler: you fancy python getting updated from 2.something to 3.something for a security fix?
21:23:17  <Ammler> well, at least it is secure as nobody runs 0.6.2 so you can't connect other servers anyway
21:23:19  *** Eddi|zuHause [] has joined #openttd
21:23:42  <Rubidium> and as side effect of the fix break a lot of programs that don't work with the new version of python?
21:24:04  <valhallasw> Ammler: the idea is: only fix the bugs, don't introduce features
21:24:08  <Ammler> Rubidium: that is yacc, not distro
21:24:40  <Rubidium> Ammler: huh? What has yacc to do with python upgrades?
21:24:42  <valhallasw> but it doesn't make sense to have openttd in debian stable anyway
21:24:45  <PeterT> is the source for the WebTranslator public? we'd like to use it for xShunter's translations
21:25:20  <Ammler> valhallasw: that is 0.6.3
21:26:16  <Rubidium> valhallasw: why? If people like it and don't care about upgrading every few months and don't care about MP... then 0.6.2 isn't that bad
21:27:41  <Ammler> not using upstream bugfixes is imo bad
21:27:44  <valhallasw> if you use debian stable as desktop OS, it makes sense. But why would you want that?
21:28:10  <Rubidium> Ammler: but they (Debian + OpenTTD in this case) are using upstream bugfixes
21:28:11  <valhallasw> it makes sense for a server that has no configuration changes and should just stay running for the next 23 years
21:29:22  <Ammler> valhallasw: the lifetime of debian is quite short for that too
21:29:38  <valhallasw>  true
21:29:46  * Rubidium wonders whether Ammler ever saw
21:29:50  <Ammler> then you should use centos
21:30:07  * valhallasw doesnt want to administer a server at all
21:30:41  <valhallasw> although I kinda miss a dedicated apache server
21:31:11  *** yorick [] has quit [Quit: Poef!]
21:32:33  <Ammler> Rubidium: I would assume, those patches in upstream
21:33:22  <Rubidium> Ammler: that sentence doesn't make sense to me
21:33:24  <Ammler> are also*
21:34:07  <Ammler> debian guys made 0.6.2 package with the patches before you released 0.6.3?
21:34:49  <Rubidium> Ammler: no, but those patches were never included in 0.6.3
21:35:06  <Rubidium> or anything else until 0.7.5 and 1.0.1 (depending on the patch)
21:36:04  <Ammler> oh, they still update the 0.6.2 with those patches?
21:36:22  <Ammler> well, they need to
21:36:43  *** heffer [] has quit [Quit: heffer]
21:36:45  <Ammler> but that is only possible, because you have such good service
21:36:46  <Rubidium> Ammler: yes... it's 0.6.2 + patches for the known vulnerabilities in 0.6.2
21:37:11  <Ammler> what are they doing with other projects, where devs don't provide such a nice security patch repo?
21:37:37  <Rubidium> cherrypick patches from upstream and backport them
21:37:58  <Rubidium> e.g. they would backport r19695
21:38:32  <Ammler> in that time, you could easy just use upstream source release and make recent packages
21:39:14  <Ammler> that might make sense for other services, but not for openttd
21:40:10  <Rubidium> the smaller the patch, the better it can be tested and thus the least chance of something going wrong
21:40:24  <Ammler> it can't be tested, as nobody is using it
21:41:03  <Rubidium> no, it can be tested because it is a small contained change
21:41:09  <Ammler> if you are up2date, you have tester :-)
21:42:06  <Wolf01> 'night
21:42:12  <Ammler> I still think, they wouldn't do that with openttd, if you wouldn't supply the patches
21:42:15  *** Wolf01 [] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
21:43:19  <Rubidium> Ammler: why not? It's a network server and compromising a server via that is bad... so security *is* important
21:43:37  <Rubidium> for something that doesn't have network support security is much less of an issue
21:44:12  <Rubidium> but I think we can debate this indefinitely and still not come to an agreement
21:44:55  * Rubidium wonders what people would say if you ditched security support for Windows XP when Vista was released just because there's a new version that already has the security fixes
21:45:02  <Ammler> 2 0.6.2 servers running
21:45:08  <Ammler> maybe those are debian :-)
21:45:18  <Rubidium> yeah, could very well be the case
21:45:49  <Ammler> Rubidium: I just meant it is stupid to make such effort for openttd
21:45:50  <Rubidium> is that a problem? Nope... shows that it just works and they didn't need to resort to downloading some version from the internet because it didn't work
21:46:12  <Rubidium> Ammler: where do you draw the line?
21:46:14  <Ammler> it be now with 1.0
21:46:57  <Ammler> well, they force the clients to use such an old version too
21:47:06  <Ammler> that might be higher risk :-)
21:47:22  <Ammler> if those run without the pathces
21:47:24  <Rubidium> but the clients will likely be other Debian stable users
21:48:12  <Rubidium> and a patched server with unpatched client (or vice versa) works just fine
21:48:51  <Ammler> well, they should add a M :-P
21:49:08  <Ammler> or a -fix
21:49:19  <Rubidium> yeah... like "your" clientside patchpack does
21:49:41  <Ammler> :-)
21:50:23  <Rubidium> or those goal servers do
21:50:32  <Ammler> also 0.6 wasn't really good MP branch
21:51:39  *** Wizzleby [] has joined #openttd
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21:52:33  <Yexo> good evening
21:53:12  <Rubidium> Ammler: there're no real statistics on desyncs, so it's doubtful much can be said about it
21:53:28  <__ln__> evening, Y
21:53:38  <Ammler> hmm, maybe the feeling was such, as there was more newgrfs in use
21:54:41  <Ammler> dunno, did autoreplace ever work there?
21:56:30  <Ammler> does debian support a non-x openttd at all?
21:56:33  <Rubidium> Ammler: I guess it did
21:56:49  <PeterT> do you guys post the webtranslator's source anywhere? I would like to have it for xShunter ;-)
21:56:57  <Rubidium> Ammler: there is no dedicated server package if you wanted to ask that
21:57:04  <Ammler> PeterT: wait for 3.1
21:57:13  <PeterT> Ammler: why?
21:57:28  <PeterT> Ammler: I don't care about bugs, I just need the webtranslator
21:57:28  <Yexo> because the source of the current version is not and will not be available
21:57:31  <Ammler> grep the logs for reasons
21:57:45  <PeterT> ok, so 3.1 will be available?
21:57:46  <Rubidium> evening Vjenne
21:57:58  <Yexo> I asked tb the same thing and that was the answer, see logs of a few weeks back
21:58:10  <Yexo> evening rb
21:58:37  <PeterT> I'm not going to search through weeks of logs - I'll take your word for it. if you do find some reasons, please notify me. thanks :-)
21:59:04  <Yexo> main reason was that the current code is a mess and too specific for openttd
21:59:19  <PeterT> ok, then I shall wait
22:00:01  <Rubidium> Ammler: and as far as I'm aware nobody has (officially) requested it yet for Debian
22:00:28  <PeterT> Yexo: is wt actively developed?
22:00:41  <Ammler> sadly opensuse has no stats
22:00:50  <Ammler> so no idea, if someone is using my packages
22:01:00  <Yexo> PeterT: no
22:01:13  *** Chris_Booth [] has joined #openttd
22:01:14  *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Administr@] has joined #openttd
22:01:16  <PeterT> so 3.1 won't come anytime soon?
22:01:25  <Yexo> correct
22:01:32  <Yexo> unless you can motivate TrueBrain to write it
22:02:03  <PeterT> TrueBrain doesn't like me :(
22:02:47  <Rubidium> so, guess 200 actual servers (multiple servers per server), assume none self compiled, all dedicated and the same version... say 1.0.0 which had 150k downloads... yields 1 dedicated server per 750 "clients"
22:02:53  <PeterT> I guess it doesn't matter - we'll use some other translation technique
22:04:26  <TrueBrain> PeterT: money motivates me
22:04:41  <Ammler> well, none self compliled and dedicated doesn't fit
22:04:53  <Ammler> as you need to compile self for dedicated
22:05:05  <TrueBrain> I need at least 80 hours for WT3.1, but lets be safe, 120 hours. 100 euro per hour, so if you can wire 12,000.00 euro to my account, I am sure it can be arranged
22:05:32  <Rubidium> Ammler: *assume*
22:05:59  <Ammler> yes, but that would be worth, wouldn't?
22:06:09  <Ammler> I mean how many downloads of 1.0.x?
22:06:16  *** theholyduck [] has quit [Quit: Forlater kanalen]
22:06:22  <Ammler> 150k, sorry :-P
22:06:33  <Rubidium> Ammler: 1.0.0 has 150k
22:06:37  *** theholyduck [] has joined #openttd
22:07:05  *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Administr@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:07:17  <Rubidium> Ammler: ~300k for all stable releases of the 1.0 branch
22:07:22  <Ammler> how many debian lenny downloads?
22:07:26  <PeterT> TrueBrain: I'll give ,000
22:07:29  <Ammler> or the other
22:07:39  <PeterT> (Zimbabwe dollars, that is)
22:07:51  <Ammler> (the least)
22:07:53  <Rubidium> Ammler: add ~130k for 1.0 testing releases
22:07:55  <TrueBrain> I explicitly asked for euros
22:07:59  <TrueBrain> no wonder I don;t like you :p
22:08:29  <PeterT> hehe
22:08:36  * TrueBrain hugs PeterT
22:08:38  <TrueBrain> that was mean
22:08:44  * PeterT hugs TrueBrain
22:08:49  <PeterT> oh, it's ok
22:08:51  <Rubidium> Ammler: ~3.5% of the downloads is Debian Lenny
22:08:52  <TrueBrain> gay
22:08:54  <PeterT> I know you don't mean it
22:08:57  * PeterT runs away crying
22:08:57  <Ammler> Rubidium: it might not be worth to have dedicated versions on
22:09:13  <Ammler> but it could be worth to supply those from the distro repos
22:10:05  <Ammler> or to have support from the Makefile to make those packages
22:10:45  <Ammler> so you don't need to build twice
22:10:51  <PeterT> TrueBrain: I don't have 12,000 euros, so I'll just wait until you motivate yourself
22:10:55  <PeterT> if such a thing exists
22:11:04  <Rubidium> Ammler: the makefile thing is just too much work for too little benefit
22:11:39  <TrueBrain> PeterT:  most likely only if I need it in another project :) The support for WT3.1 I got last time consisted soly out of planetmaker
22:11:55  <Rubidium> as you'd need to split out stuff as #ifdef DEDICATED is used at several places throughout the project
22:11:56  <TrueBrain> despite the fact 3 big projects showed interest ... just no feedback what so ever ..
22:12:30  <PeterT> TrueBrain: I see
22:12:46  <PeterT> also, about you not liking me - at least you don't ignore me :)
22:13:05  <Rubidium> maybe planetmaker can push you for support for NML :)
22:13:10  <TrueBrain> I have a mental ignore for people who annoy me; but fair questions will be answered :)
22:13:26  <PeterT> TrueBrain: I try not to ignore you anymore ;-)
22:13:33  <planetmaker> what's up?
22:13:33  <PeterT> err...s/ignore/annoy/
22:13:51  <Rubidium> although NML's language format is very much like OpenTTD's format, so it might even be possible in 3.0 with minor changes
22:13:55  *** bryjen [~bryjen@] has quit [Quit: Quit]
22:14:12  <planetmaker> ah :-)
22:14:17  <Yexo> it was designed to be very much like openttd's language files
22:14:21  <Ammler> maybe a 3.0.1 ;-)
22:14:30  <planetmaker> we'd need to do that jointly with some newgrf version changes?
22:14:43  <Yexo> but since I have no idea how wt works internally I have no idea how much changes would be needed
22:14:48  *** theholyduck [] has quit [Quit: Forlater kanalen]
22:15:06  <TrueBrain> in theory WT3.0 has support for branches
22:15:08  <TrueBrain> it was designed like that
22:15:11  <TrueBrain> just, it was never tested
22:15:19  <TrueBrain> so I have no clue if all checks are in place
22:15:23  *** theholyduck [] has joined #openttd
22:15:29  <TrueBrain> (and I wouldn't count on it :D)
22:15:30  <planetmaker> why would we need a branch?
22:15:47  <TrueBrain> no, I say it has support for branches
22:16:07  <planetmaker> :-)
22:16:07  <TrueBrain> so, it support multiple sets of language files next to eachother
22:16:18  <TrueBrain> just ... there is a good change it won't work :)
22:16:30  <TrueBrain> as at some point I believe I gave up on adding the tons of checks that it requires :D
22:17:09  <Terkhen> good night
22:17:15  <PeterT> 'night Terkhen
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