Log for #openttd on 17th July 2010:
Times are UTC Toggle Colours
00:00:26  <Ammler> <-- this compiles, but is it correct?
00:01:19  <Rubidium> can't say
00:01:46  <glx> probably not
00:01:49  <Rubidium> although I fear it's not
00:01:59  <glx> at least the return true is wrong for me
00:02:14  <Ammler> yes, might need false
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00:02:21  <glx> you really should check r20145
00:02:21  <Ammler> and a return true in the if clause
00:03:28  <glx> smallmap_gui.cpp is the better example I think
00:09:41  <Wolf01> [01:45:10] <Rubidium> too bad OpenTTD uses GPL... now we can't limit OpenTTD usage for people that have an IQ of more than say 100 <- too bad for you I could continue to use it: 126 IQ :P
00:11:39  <Wolf01> oh, finally I found a good made pepakura for the IronMan model :D
00:12:51  <Wolf01> tomorrow I'll study it, then I'll try to build the helmet
00:13:33  <Wolf01> 'night all, see you and don't dream bad things
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00:31:43  <Ammler> good night :-)
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01:14:43  <ccfreak2k> I have an IQ of 145. I guess I can't use it.
01:14:54  <ccfreak2k> Unless Rubi meant limit usage TO IQ of xyz.
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04:42:42  <andythenorth> hai hai Pikka
04:42:51  <andythenorth> what strange hours
04:42:55  <Pikka> bonjour
04:43:02  <Pikka> 2:42pm is a strange hour?
04:43:08  <andythenorth> the strangest
04:43:22  <Pikka> what about half past cucumber?
04:44:04  <andythenorth> even more strangest
04:44:19  <andythenorth> ostlandr has suggested we create a british RV set
04:44:28  <ccfreak2k> What about 5 minutes 'till 10 minutes 'till half past the first hour of the first Saturday of the fourth month with a prime number?
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04:45:06  <Pikka> sounds like a good idea
04:45:07  <andythenorth> how about we shift the time to hex?  base 12 is stupid anyway
04:46:29  <Pikka> sounds like god save the queen to me
04:46:42  * andythenorth thinks about doing a draw
04:46:52  * Pikka thinks about drawing a do
04:47:06  * ccfreak2k draws about thinking a do
04:47:43  * Pikka does think about a drawing
04:48:20  * ccfreak2k a about doing draw thinks
04:49:06  * Pikka wouldn't be surprised
04:50:06  <andythenorth> the fertiliser wagon I drew for UKRS is too long
04:50:19  <andythenorth> but I don't want to change it
04:50:48  <ccfreak2k> A veritable crap car.
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05:04:35  * andythenorth redraws fertiliser van
05:04:37  <andythenorth> :P
05:05:45  <Pikka> too longggggggggg
05:06:04  <Pikka> UKRS2 cars are 1 pixel overlength in the horizontal views, btw
05:06:08  <Pikka> so the couplers overlap
05:08:49  <andythenorth> ok
05:09:05  <andythenorth> Pikka: I'm drawing over your existing vehicles, so should be ok?
05:09:24  <Pikka> righto
05:10:11  <Pikka> put them on the templates when you're done, for ease of coding, though :P  with the extra pixel to the right.
05:11:57  <andythenorth> that explains why they're 33px wide, thought that was odd
05:15:26  * andythenorth photostrop
05:15:42  <andythenorth> photostrop ends
05:18:19  <andythenorth> hmm
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05:23:58  <naywhayare> hello, I find that openttd is unplayable due to lag
05:24:20  <naywhayare> I am using the 32bpp-fullzoom patch, at 1920x1200 (although resolution does not seem to affect the issue) on a 2048x2048 map
05:24:50  <naywhayare> I suspect that perhaps this could be caused by the several different farmland tiles constantly being changed all over the map
05:25:09  <naywhayare> and was wondering if there is a way to turn that off (I also find it slightly annoying and distracting)
05:29:59  <planetmaker> turn of full animation
05:30:06  <planetmaker> *off
05:30:16  <planetmaker> and full detail level, too
05:30:54  <planetmaker> and you'll find that playing smaller maps is just as fine
05:30:56  <planetmaker> :-P
05:32:26  <naywhayare> actually I just tried the smaller maps and noticed the issue there too
05:32:30  <naywhayare> I'll try turning off full animation
05:32:51  <naywhayare> but I'm running this on a core 2 duo with properly configured video drivers, so it struck me as a little odd
05:35:58  <planetmaker> neither the number of cores nor your video card is interesting here. Only the single core speed of your CPU
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05:38:43  <andythenorth> planetmaker: I am setting up a new repo on devzone, what should the Root Directory be?
05:39:37  <Celestar> heya
05:40:47  <naywhayare> yes, of course.  but still, one core of the core 2 duo should be perfectly capable of this
05:40:48  <planetmaker> heya Celestar
05:41:01  <planetmaker> andythenorth: uhm... root dir?
05:41:06  <Celestar> why doesn't the music autostart when enabled? is there some openttd.cfg thingy or do I have to code it?
05:41:27  <andythenorth> planetmaker: thanks
05:41:29  <planetmaker> volume down?
05:41:32  <andythenorth> Pikka: these:
05:41:43  <planetmaker> andythenorth: no, I mean... where do you select the dir?
05:41:51  <andythenorth> colours: grey + orange, 1CC + orange, or grey + 2cc?
05:42:51  <andythenorth> planetmaker:
05:44:02  <planetmaker> hm, that's no URL what has to go there. It's the hard disc path.
05:44:40  <planetmaker>  /home/ottdc/hg-repos/ukrs2-addons
05:45:04  <Pikka> andy: CC would be nice. :P  grey and 2cc or 1cc + 2cc... ;]  or both... or all three. :)
05:45:33  <planetmaker> trains w/o CC make it easier in MP environments :-)
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05:47:37  <planetmaker> s/w\/o/with/
05:47:45  <planetmaker> *with of course :-)
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05:51:34  <andythenorth> planetmaker:
05:58:54  <Pikka> how perrrrrrrrrculiarrrrrrrrr
06:29:05  <andythenorth> yay
06:29:06  <andythenorth> Pikka:
06:29:18  <andythenorth> ^ saves you going through the forum thread
06:29:28  <ccfreak2k> I would be nice?
06:29:28  <andythenorth> (if you wish)
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07:08:28  <andythenorth> planetmaker: resp. FIRS behaviour....I had planned a 'classic' option
07:08:28  <andythenorth>
07:08:45  <andythenorth> I put a line through it as I thought it was too complex
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07:12:28  <Terkhen> good morning
07:14:39  <Pikka> good morning and goodbye!
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07:15:02  <Zuu> good morning
07:18:32  <__ln__> good fortnight
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07:25:01  * Zuu looks up fortnight in a dictionary - interesting..
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07:31:26  <planetmaker> moin Terkhen, __ln__ and Zuu
07:31:58  <planetmaker> andythenorth: would it really be too complex? I didn't look closer at it... wouldn't it just mean to use the industry's default behaviour as if nothing would be defined?
07:35:30  <andythenorth> planetmaker: the implementation would be relatively trivial, it's probably just a varact 2 in one template
07:35:41  <andythenorth> but testing is harder (and I have to do most of the testing) :P
07:35:50  <andythenorth> also bug reports considerably more complex no?
07:36:06  <planetmaker> well. The latter possibly
07:36:35  <planetmaker> But from what / how I followed discussion about the current game on our PS (it is still the FIRS one), people would prefer a simpler mechanism
07:36:47  <andythenorth> I have no objection to it...
07:36:52  <andythenorth> also the industry window strings for every primary industry will have to be duplicated or concatenated
07:37:02  <planetmaker> hm
07:37:13  <andythenorth> If you want to implement it, feel free (but I'm away this weekend) :)
07:37:17  <andythenorth> or we can do it later in the year
07:37:19  <planetmaker> it'd be relatively easy for me to sneak in another testing game
07:37:27  <planetmaker> I won't do anything for the next 3 weeks
07:37:33  <planetmaker> Don't even expect replies ;-)
07:37:37  <planetmaker> though they might come
07:37:51  <planetmaker> they are not guaranteed
07:38:28  <andythenorth> planetmaker: the other issue would be whether to eliminate supplies entirely
07:38:37  <andythenorth> that would be simpler to code
07:38:44  <andythenorth> but would create chaos in the cargo chains
07:39:58  <planetmaker> hm. would it?
07:41:27  <planetmaker> actually it *would* be nice, if one really had a simple industry extension / replacement without a difficulty increase
07:42:07  <andythenorth> removing the Machine Shop etc. looks simple, but it would unbalance the game
07:42:17  <andythenorth> and for every economy we want to create, there would be two versions
07:42:22  <andythenorth> complexity == bad
07:43:11  <planetmaker> andythenorth: couldn't that be part of the economy?
07:43:27  <andythenorth> yes
07:43:36  <andythenorth> one option is to make this part of FIRS 'basic'
07:43:45  <andythenorth> it bleeds the concept of an economy though
07:43:53  <andythenorth> bleeds / blurs
07:45:29  <planetmaker> well. It extends the definition of economy as we implemented it now
07:45:51  <planetmaker> otoh it could just as well be another parameter.
07:46:00  <andythenorth> I think it would work better as an economy
07:46:34  <planetmaker> I'd "just" have it then remove the supply cargos and possibly some industries which make sense only in a supply context
07:49:00  <planetmaker> I should come up with a way to combine nfo and NML programming
07:49:05  <planetmaker> transitionally so to speak
07:49:40  <planetmaker> I find the FIRS code in nfo meanwhile complex and big enough that I don't find my way around without investing at least a whole half day on it.
07:50:10  <planetmaker> except for the simplest things like defining user-exposed parameters and translating them into internal ones
07:51:16  <planetmaker> I can stare for dozens of minutes at a single industry and only with much referencing I'll understand what it does when. And then hours are gone
07:51:33  <planetmaker> :-(
07:52:28  <andythenorth> :P
07:53:41  <planetmaker> I know the grammar but not the vocabulary of industry nfo
07:53:48  <andythenorth> planetmaker: I propose to create maybe two basic economies anyway
07:53:58  <planetmaker> as such it becomes very tedious to look up every property, callback and varaction
07:54:28  <planetmaker> and nfo doesn't make it easy to distinguish grammar from vocabulary
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07:58:09  <andythenorth> planetmaker: if 'basic' doesn't feature supplies, it also helpfully removes some cargos and industries, so it aids simplicity for the player :)
07:58:20  <andythenorth> but adds complexity for the coder :o
07:58:35  <andythenorth> not too much complexity though
07:59:39  <planetmaker> yes... playing simplicity doesn't mean code simplicity. Rather the contrary often
08:01:14  * andythenorth afk for the weekend
08:01:16  <andythenorth> bye
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08:09:14  <planetmaker> enjoy, andythenorth
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09:18:56  <Wolf01> hello
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09:23:09  <fjb> Moin.
09:24:51  <Mazur> Good moaning.
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10:57:15  <frosch123> andythenorth: " OpenTTD does not set a default value for TE." <- what makes you think so?
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11:07:20  <Terkhen> IIRC it is set only for road vehicles
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11:09:01  <frosch123> it is set for all default trains
11:09:15  <frosch123> for trains above the default ids you have to set all properties anyway
11:10:05  <Terkhen> yeah, I meant that, for RVs, the default value of TE is used for NewGRF vehicles if the TE value is not set or is zero
11:11:38  <frosch123> #define RVI(a, b, c, d, e, f, g, h, i, j, k) { a, b, c, {j}, d, e, f, g, h, k, i, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 76, 0 } <- i see a 76 default
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11:12:44  <frosch123> hmm @ fs#3957
11:16:28  <Terkhen>
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11:17:09  <frosch123> yes, that is because TE was added for RV after enginepool
11:17:21  <frosch123> but we were talking about trains :)
11:18:15  <Terkhen> I see... I thought it was about trains after engine pool
11:18:55  <frosch123> nevertheless we might generally want to supply some defaults for engine pool engines
11:19:28  <Terkhen> hmmm... there was an argument about not doing this for trains too, but I don't remember it
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11:46:33  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20168 /branches/1.0/ (13 files in 4 dirs):
11:46:33  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: [1.0] -Backport from trunk:
11:46:33  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: - Fix: Do not scan /data and ~/data (if they happen to be your working directory). If it's the directory where your binary is located it will still scan them [FS#3949] (r20166)
11:46:33  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: - Fix: Integer comparison failed in case the difference was more than "MAX_UINT"/2 [FS#3954] (r20162)
11:46:34  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: - Fix: [YAPP] Converting a one-way block to a path signal with trains on both sides could lead to a train crash [FS#3937] (r20156)
11:46:34  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: - Fix: [NewGRF] Improve handling of snowing of railtypes and (infra)structures on foundations [FS#3883] (r20153, r20132, r20126, r20125)
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12:13:08  <Eddi|zuHause> <-- some people really can't take "no" for an answer...
12:14:12  <fonsinchen> I also see that as a problem. But I won't rework the whole settings menu just to allow for those additional settings.
12:16:11  <Rubidium> maybe suggest him to change the code to perform in the way he wants it to perform. That's definitely the best way of configuring it
12:18:19  <Eddi|zuHause> fonsinchen: i completely agree
12:18:48  <Eddi|zuHause> it's kind of a problem, but it doesn't have a sensible workaround, so it should stay like it is
12:19:36  <frosch123> bridges are stupid
12:20:07  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, they are
12:20:24  <Eddi|zuHause> neither do they have custom bridgeheads, nor can they run diagonal!
12:20:37  <frosch123> the snowness of the tile should be consistent with surrounding tiles, the snow of the rail should be consistent with surrounding rail
12:20:55  <fonsinchen> I could also have a few extra pairs of settings where in one setting you can choose the cargo class and in the other one you choose the distribution type.
12:20:58  <frosch123> but that results in different showlevels for the groundtile and the railoverlay
12:21:06  <frosch123> what snowyness should the ramp get?
12:21:20  <fonsinchen> Then I could get rid of the ARMOURED and EXPRESS settings instead.
12:21:38  <fonsinchen> Maybe that's the way to go ...
12:22:25  <frosch123> cargoclasses are not exclusive
12:22:40  <frosch123> what happens to cargo which is both armoured and express?
12:23:03  <fonsinchen> the topmost setting for that cargo is preferred then.
12:23:53  <Eddi|zuHause> didn't someone suggest a prisoner cargo? :p
12:24:12  <frosch123> yes, and thouse prisoner should get delivered to mines...
12:25:09  <Eddi|zuHause> and a CASTOR cargo... appears once every few years, and constantly "breaks down" due to protesters stopping the train :p
12:26:59  <oniik> did someone mention diagonal bridges? yes please!
12:27:40  <Zuu> sure, go ahead and implement them. :-D
12:28:10  <fonsinchen> are grf-defined cargo classes required to be consecutively numbered? - Starting at 0 with no "holes", just like the prefined cargos in cargo_type.h?
12:28:24  <fonsinchen> s/cargo classes/cargos/
12:28:45  <Rubidium> and when you're at it... corners, junctions and height changes in bridges... and do the same for tunnels
12:29:23  <fonsinchen> They probably aren't ...
12:29:52  <frosch123> fonsinchen: there no "grf defined" cargo classes
12:30:04  <frosch123> they are a global agreement of grf authors
12:31:14  <fonsinchen> I meant cargos, not cargo classes. Sorry for the confusion.
12:31:38  <frosch123> ah, no cargos are not consecutive
12:32:12  <fonsinchen> The problem with using cargo classes as discriminator for distribution type is that they only tell something about the "packaging" of cargo, not about the actual content.
12:32:31  <fonsinchen> In some cases the content can be inferred from the packaging, in other cases it can't.
12:33:34  <frosch123> well, then you need to incremenally collect all cargotypes, and always display those currently available
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12:33:59  <fonsinchen> But I can't dynamically change the number of settings in the menu.
12:34:02  <frosch123> though that is likely very difficult to configure from not in-game, ie.e. main menu
12:34:07  <fonsinchen> Not without huge changes.
12:34:40  <frosch123> fonsinchen: well, you do not even know the available cargos before starting the game :p
12:35:00  <fonsinchen> true, but I can just show the default cargos in the main menu.
12:35:38  <frosch123> does not sound very useful
12:36:03  <fonsinchen> You can change the distribution types during game
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12:38:10  <fonsinchen> Maybe it's good to have a default distribution type and a few overrides based on cargo classes as well as a few overrides based on cargos.
12:38:24  <fonsinchen> Like 3 for each.
12:39:19  <fonsinchen> that will be 7 settings. Should be OK.
12:39:31  <fonsinchen> actually 13
12:39:34  <fonsinchen> hrm
12:41:10  <planetmaker> that's a lot :-)
12:41:20  <fonsinchen> however that's only one setting more than listing all the default cargos and you can do most of the stuff you could do with a full listing.
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12:48:14  <frosch123> why does exploring trivial bugs always result in a dozen more bugs... :s
13:02:15  <Ammler> newgrf_developer_tools rocks :-)
13:04:24  <Zuu> and the ai dev tools as well :-)
13:04:44  * Zuu thinks there sholud be a Ctrl + Alt + D that brings up dev-add-on options
13:07:04  <Ammler> zuu, did you notice my "little" feature request for sign filter?
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13:07:58  <Zuu> Yep, and I even replyed to it :-)
13:08:48  <Ammler> ok, fine
13:09:12  <Zuu> Did you know about the 'f' shortcut?
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13:09:35  <Ammler> no, you might be right
13:10:39  <Zuu> I've supplied a patch for a standard way of focusing edit boxes in the entire OpenTTD but got the reply that there aren't that many edit boxes yet, so instead I/we need to get in more edit boxes before they'll consider patches that uniform focusing of edit boxes via keyboard.
13:11:48  <Ammler> I don't use shortcuts in general
13:12:06  <Ammler> I just noticed it because I updated ctrl-l
13:12:41  <Zuu> My idea is that when you chat you are already on the keyboard so then you could do Ctrl + l and then f and then type your filter string.
13:13:10  <Zuu> Then possible use the arrow keys and hit enter to go to the sign.
13:13:27  <Ammler> yep, but as you will always do ctrl-l & f, you could as good do that with ctrl-l
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13:13:52  <Ammler> but it is ok :-)
13:14:35  <Zuu> then you would have to rename ctrl + l hotkey to "open and focus filter edit box"
13:15:32  <Zuu> which is probably to specific to be in trunk
13:15:37  <Ammler> maybe the new hotkeys feature does allow alias or something like?
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13:15:48  <Ammler> so you could define combinations
13:17:19  <fonsinchen> I could implement the SDT_INTLIST type for settings. Then I could have a list of cargos for each distribution type. I have no idea on how to make that editable, though.
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13:27:35  <fonsinchen> maybe it's enough to make that available in the config file for now.
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14:36:51  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: frosch * r20169 /trunk/src/ (group_gui.cpp vehicle_gui.cpp vehicle_gui_base.h): -Codechange: Replace ShowGroupActionDropdown() with BaseVehicleListWindow::BuildActionDropdownList().
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14:48:06  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: frosch * r20170 /trunk/src/ (group_gui.cpp vehicle_gui.cpp vehicle_gui_base.h): -Codechange: Add BaseVehicleListWindow::GetActionDropdownSize().
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14:53:58  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: frosch * r20171 /trunk/src/ (vehicle_gui.cpp vehicle_gui_base.h): -Fix: Make the group list action dropdown also use vehicletype-specific texts like the normal vehicle list.
14:58:49  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: frosch * r20172 /trunk/src/ (group_gui.cpp vehicle_gui.cpp vehicle_gui_base.h): -Codechange: Use BaseVehicleListWindow::BuildActionDropdownList() also for the normal vehicle list.
15:03:18  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: frosch * r20173 /trunk/src/vehicle_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Make the normal vehiclelist fit the longest action dropdown text.
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15:06:39  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: frosch * r20174 /trunk/src/vehicle_gui.cpp: -Codechange [FS#3955]: Allow horizontal resizing for all vehicle lists.
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15:39:03  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: frosch * r20175 /trunk/src/newgrf_engine.cpp: -Change: [NewGRF] Adapt vehicle var FE bit 6 to new railtypes.
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17:45:43  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: translators * r20176 /trunk/src/lang/ (6 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
17:45:43  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:43  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: chuvash - 19 changes by mefisteron
17:45:43  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: greek - 9 changes by fumantsu
17:45:43  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: indonesian - 7 changes by prof
17:45:43  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: italian - 13 changes by lorenzodv
17:45:43  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: swedish - 2 changes by tool
17:45:47  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20177 /branches/1.0/ (7 files in 5 dirs): [1.0] -Prepare: for 1.0.3-RC1
17:47:35  * frosch123 is ready
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17:48:15  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20178 /branches/1.0/src/lang/ (18 files): [1.0] -Backport: language updates
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17:52:32  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20179 /tags/1.0.3-RC1/ (5 files in 4 dirs): -Release: 1.0.3-RC1
17:52:45  <Wolf01> hurray!
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20:02:55  * Rubidium thinks the Spanish wiki translator should get his/her priorities right
20:05:19  <Rubidium> translating the Nintendo DS and DOS pages should probably be done rather late... like after the "how to install openttd" and the base "how to play openttd" pages
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20:10:00  <__ln__> did you know openttd is an abandoned game?
20:10:13  <Wolf01> really?
20:10:24  <__ln__> no.
20:10:44  <Wolf01> __ln__ you could do the italian translation of the wiki
20:11:08  <__ln__> but this guy thinks so:
20:11:53  <Rubidium> although I agree that telling people what a universal library/binary is and why it's so useful is more important than telling how the game works/should be installed
20:12:18  <__ln__> Wolf01: io ne parlare bastante italiano
20:13:00  <Wolf01> I know you could do it, I might fix it up later :D
20:13:24  <Rubidium> Wolf01: IT Crowd Italian?
20:13:47  <Wolf01> seriously, I think I'll begin to translate some pages of the wiki
20:14:16  <Wolf01> I think I might start from my profile, then the Nintendo DS page as well
20:16:01  <__ln__> the Nintendo_DS/Es page looks very english
20:16:02  <planetmaker> __ln__: I'm not sure that guy thinks
20:16:26  * Rubidium wishes that guy good luck with the installer :)
20:16:45  <planetmaker> :-)
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20:18:18  <Ammler> Rubidium: is that the right way to make wiki translations?
20:18:24  * planetmaker can think of many more joyful endeavours
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20:18:42  <Wolf01> too bad I never did a translation for a wiki before, making a copy of the page with the {{Other_languages|en=PageName|it=CopyOfPageName... is enough? Where the copy is the translated page... or there's a way to keep the same page name with different languages?
20:18:44  <Rubidium> Ammler: the best I've seen so far
20:19:07  <Ammler> but it's not how wikipedia does it
20:19:57  <Rubidium> wikipedia has N different seperate wikis
20:20:15  <Rubidium> and not quite a translation
20:20:41  <Ammler> well, I don't think, this will become a translation too
20:22:04  <Ammler> might be better to use a webtranslator
20:22:55  <Ammler> people should rather simply make their own wiki
20:23:24  <Rubidium> there are ideas to make the "user" part into something docbook-ish, which is easier to translate... possibly even via WT3. The rest of the wiki isn't very useful in non-English (like the how-to-set-up-the-compiler and such)
20:23:31  <Rubidium> or the "devbooks"
20:24:15  <Ammler> also translating the readme would make more sense, imo
20:24:42  <Rubidium> yup...
20:24:45  <Rubidium> more for WT3 to do
20:24:45  <Wolf01> <Ammler> people should rather simply make their own wiki <- I did it so, but on my forum
20:25:25  <Ammler> Wolf01: could also be<whatever>
20:25:52  <__ln__> why would how-to-set-up-the-compiler be especially less useless in non-English? (than, say, Nintendo DS)
20:26:36  <Ammler> Nintendo DS _is_ _very_ important
20:28:49  <Rubidium> the Nintendo DS wouldn't be in the dockbook thing either
20:29:12  <__ln__> for example MS Visual Studio is available in Spanish, so not all compiler users necessarily operate in english.
20:30:50  <Rubidium> and Spanish MSVC supports Spanish written C?
20:31:23  <Ammler> yeah, like MS Excel
20:31:55  <__ln__> Rubidium: not really, but compiler and linker messages are in spanish, not just the gui.
20:33:58  <Rubidium> in any case... for compiling to be useful they want to change OpenTTD's code and that kinda requires knowledge of English
20:34:27  <Rubidium> and I doubt that there are much C programmers that don't have a clue about English
20:34:42  <Wolf01> \o
20:34:45  <Rubidium> whereas I'm quite sure there are people playing OpenTTD that don't understand English
20:35:15  <Rubidium> so... a translated user manual makes way more sense than a translated developers manual
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20:37:35  <__ln__> Rubidium: would be interesting to see some statistics about english-clueless C programmers (in general, not OpenTTD-relatedly).  i suspect there must be thousands of them in places like China or Japan.
20:39:42  <planetmaker> [22:35]	<Rubidium>	so... a translated user manual makes way more sense than a translated developers manual <-- agreed. But that doesn't make the latter worthless
20:40:07  <Wolf01> I started developing in Basic when I was 5, I didn't know the meaning of "for" or "if..then..else" or "print" and "input" but copying the examples and trying I learnt the basics
20:41:43  <Wolf01> for example, "print" and "input" for me had the same meaning, both printed a statement on the screen, the only difference was that "input" asked for a user action to continue
20:47:33  <frosch123> there are a lot programmers who do not know english
20:50:37  <__ln__> and indeed C is not COBOL, so there are very few words to learn.  (and you'd still need to learn them even if you were an englishman.)
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20:54:14  <Ammler> nobody likes to play with breakdowns
20:54:25  <Wolf01> I do
20:56:52  <frosch123> i also do
20:57:06  <frosch123> else you use the same engines in every game
20:57:35  <frosch123> with breakdowns "reliability" is often the most important property :)
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20:59:56  <frosch123> btw. the game is then easier if there are lots of engines to choose from, while e.g. in nars one model stays bad
21:01:58  <Ammler> yeah, it is specially good for SP, but quite hard to let the vehicles run without watching...
21:02:43  <Ammler> there should be an additonal step between none and reduced
21:03:39  <Wolf01> very low?
21:04:20  <Ammler> reduced are still a lot breakdowns
21:04:25  <Wolf01> or maybe the realistic breakdowns patch directly
21:05:07  <Wolf01> if I have 2 engines I don't understand why a breakdown is _always_ a  critical failure
21:05:33  <Ammler> he true
21:05:45  <Ammler> then you can half the breakdowns with just doubling engines
21:06:49  <planetmaker> Wolf01: because it's always either a half-de-railed axle or a completely blocked brake or a disruption in the hydraulics which communicates to all parts of the consist
21:07:21  <planetmaker> And that's especially nice for horse carriages which start to smoke due to over-work :-P
21:07:47  <planetmaker> newgrf breakdowns ;-)
21:09:10  <Wolf01> planetmaker every breakdown you mentioned cannot be always resolved in place, at least not without a lot of work, maintenance vehicles and lots of other things
21:10:29  <__ln__> when a train breaks down, should there be buses to replace it?
21:11:18  <Wolf01> no, I suggest helicopters, how do you reach a train blocked in the middle of a desert without roads?
21:11:59  <Wolf01> Ammler, not true, there's always a chance of a critical mechanical failure which makes the vehicle/train stop, other breakdowns limit only the power, max speed, tractive effort
21:12:30  <planetmaker> power=0: "Oberleitungsschaden" (catanery failure)
21:12:42  <Wolf01> but at least the train doesn't stop every dog piss :P
21:12:46  <Ammler> I doesn't need to be so complicated, just disable the engine on breakdown
21:12:50  <planetmaker> And then mostly because some jerk found it funny to cash in on the copper of the catanery
21:13:39  <planetmaker> I still wonder how one can go for such thing...
21:14:21  <Wolf01> planetmaker, happened in Italy too, and the jerk was found without his arms but 2 smoking stumps...
21:14:33  <planetmaker> he
21:15:00  <planetmaker> nah, they were really successful in this case
21:15:03  <Wolf01> he was trying to steal the copper wire of an high power transformer of the rail system
21:15:15  <Wolf01> *a high...
21:15:24  <planetmaker> oh... no good idea :-)
21:15:33  <frosch123> maybe the reliabiliy should increase somewhat after it got repaired on the track
21:15:36  <Wolf01> no, really not
21:16:18  <planetmaker> frosch123: I like the idea of power=te=0 for train and vehicle failures
21:16:31  <planetmaker> it's easy. And it then pays to have redundancy :-)
21:16:53  <Wolf01> frosch123, I bet that an engine with 0% reliability which break down every 5 tiles should look like the "Howl's crawling castle"
21:17:18  <planetmaker> Wolf01: I bet a newgrf *could* do that
21:18:21  <__ln__> Wolf01: train companies cannot afford helicopters for a thousand people
21:19:24  <Wolf01> can they afford to build a road to reach the broken down train?
21:19:28  <planetmaker> Wolf01: a 2nd train would be sent
21:19:49  <Zuu> But that would block the other track.
21:19:55  <planetmaker> easy cheap and affordable
21:20:08  <planetmaker> Zuu: why other track? you just need to get there
21:20:23  <planetmaker> if you feel like you can even pull the broken-down train
21:20:23  <Zuu> Depends on the location.
21:20:34  <Wolf01> in the same track, indeed, at least in the real world they use to use shunters to bring back the train at the nearest station
21:21:10  <planetmaker> hm... copper 7k€ per kg
21:21:15  <Zuu> Usually you don't have to go on the other track but in some bad luck situations it could be necessary. Especally if you need to evacuate people, then you don't want to be next to tranis passing by in 200 km/h.
21:21:18  <Wolf01> and if the engine is too damaged they disconnect it getting "disconnecting train" error, and they blow it up
21:21:30  <planetmaker> 7k $US rather. STill
21:22:58  <Zuu> Anyway if there is a risk of an engine to have a fatal error that stops the train no mater if you have additional engines, then that risk will increase with multiple engines.
21:22:59  <Rubidium> *if* you want realistic breakdowns then you should have brake breakdowns as well, especially fun on long downhill slopes
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21:23:55  <perk111> >planetmaker: And then mostly because some jerk found it funny to cash in on the copper of the catanery
21:23:55  <perk111> lol, in russian we had "No power" translated as "Someone has stolen catenary"
21:24:02  <Wolf01> gah, the 2nd level of Magic is impossible.. I do 4-5 damage, my enemy does 11+5+6+3 and blocked almost all my creatures with traps and spells...
21:24:09  <planetmaker> Zuu: sure. But currently *every* failure is fatal. The implicit assumption here - propbably - is that that will change
21:24:11  <Zuu> Oh, and apart from smokning horses, we need horses that lay down and dies when they get too old. :-)
21:24:45  <Wolf01> Rubidium, there's always the emergency brake...
21:25:07  <Zuu> which could always also has a failure.
21:25:25  <Wolf01> it should be impossible to break at the same time in _all_ the cars of the train
21:25:30  <Zuu> In the winter there were metro trains in stockholm that failed to brake and rolled past three stations before they stopped.
21:25:42  <Wolf01> lol
21:26:00  <planetmaker> he
21:26:07  <perk111> Zuu: no, if you have multilple engines and one is broken, a train still can use others
21:26:16  <Zuu> And then the commuters were angry because they closed down all outdoor metro lines.
21:26:24  <Rubidium> Wolf01: but... people forget about secondary brakes
21:26:39  <Eddi|zuHause> the breakdown graphics and sounds must be exposed to the newgrf
21:26:51  <Eddi|zuHause> similar to running sounds
21:27:07  <perk111> Yes, it would be nice
21:27:23  <Eddi|zuHause> it shouldn't even be difficult to do...
21:27:38  <Eddi|zuHause> (no, i will not do it)
21:27:51  <Wolf01> yes, there's always a chance that an engine has a power loss when climbing a mountain and the emergency brake maintenance was... forgotten in the last maintenance... especially if the engine reliability drops below 10%
21:28:01  <Rubidium> Wolf01: and there have been crashes even when the emergency brakes were applied (e.g. Coton Hill rail crash)
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21:29:41  <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: railways all over the world are failing... the swedish are obviously not excluded...
21:30:01  <Eddi|zuHause> only the english have a 30 year headstart...
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21:31:18  <planetmaker> [23:26]	<Rubidium>	Wolf01: but... people forget about secondary brakes <-- yep
21:31:19  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm still amazed how the german railway agency (Eisenbahnbundesamt, EBA) managed to pull the plug on the berlin S-Bahn before anything really serious happened...
21:31:50  <planetmaker> Once there was a tram, the driver announced that the primary brake system failed and braking would be kinda abrupt. Initially the people laughed
21:32:02  <planetmaker> Until the tram had to brake for the first time...
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21:33:06  <Eddi|zuHause> ... if anything that serious broke in a tram, i'd demand all passengers to leave!
21:33:40  <planetmaker> obviously not
21:33:47  <Eddi|zuHause> there's always the next tram in at most 15 minutes...
21:33:58  <planetmaker> well it still had brakes, so no trouble :-)
21:34:27  <Rubidium> until those break, or the wheels become square
21:34:37  <planetmaker> :-)
21:34:47  <Eddi|zuHause> oah... they drove here with a "flat" wheel for years :p
21:35:03  <Eddi|zuHause> made nice noises :p
21:35:49  <frosch123> @calc 65536/(55*31)
21:35:49  <DorpsGek> frosch123: 38.4375366569
21:36:06  <Wolf01> gah, lost again -2 to 11
21:36:16  <Eddi|zuHause> they probably said... "ah. what the hell. as long as the wheel is in better shape than the tracks" :p
21:36:29  <Wolf01> (I was 13 before last attack)
21:36:31  <Rubidium> Wolf01: start using unsigned numbers!
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21:37:09  <Eddi|zuHause> and parentheses :p
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21:37:48  <Eddi|zuHause> if you lose "-2 [score] to 11 [score]", something goes seriously wrong
21:38:23  <Wolf01> you know, meh... Magic... all is possible
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21:51:46  <__ln__> completely off-topic, but why do movie-soundtracks-performed-through-a-bad-synthesizer type of CDs exist in the first place?
21:57:03  <Zuu> Since quality is not necessary to sell movie related stuff?
21:58:52  <__ln__> but those aren't even official movie merchandies nor branded so. (and no wonder)
21:59:07  <Zuu> If the main brand is the movie rather than the company making it, then there will always be new movies and you won't lose much of your company brand name by making a bad movie product.
22:00:07  <Zuu> hmm, but if they are not heavily branded for the movie, then it's more silly.
22:00:32  <__ln__> and often the cover of such a CD claims "performed by Some Blahblahcity Orchestra", but is in fact performed with a bad synthesizer, as mentioned.
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22:09:43  <Eddi|zuHause> sue them for mislabeling the product
22:13:08  <__ln__> what surprises me the most is that the copyright holders allow such crap to be made. (those obviously aren't pirated stuff)   anyway, i don't buy those.
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22:25:57  <Wolf01> __ln__ they would allow anything for money, also if somebody does it with burps and farts instead of a crappy synth
22:27:26  <fjb> Some movies are only made to sell a lot of expensive crap afterwards.
22:29:39  <Eddi|zuHause> reminds me of "the studios had so little faith in the success of star wars that they let george lucas keep all merchandise rights"
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22:32:49  <fjb> Epic fail.
22:34:02  <Wolf01> I think they learnt the lesson...
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22:34:26  <Rubidium> yup... now ALL movies make a loss
22:34:59  <Eddi|zuHause> "creative bookkeeping"
22:35:19  <Rubidium> yes... that one
22:35:21  <Eddi|zuHause> it's the only thing that's actually still creative in the music and film industry
22:35:40  <Rubidium> well, they've got another creative way of losing money
22:36:11  <Rubidium> the sueing of people seems to make a huge loss as well
22:36:24  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, i read that ;)
22:36:34  <Wolf01> yeah 30M vs 14k :P
22:36:51  <Wolf01> or it was 140k
22:37:06  <Eddi|zuHause> not quite that extreme...
22:37:39  <Eddi|zuHause> the whole sueing thing is just a media attention scheme anyway
22:39:03  <Eddi|zuHause> while pressing the y key... have i ever mentioned that in english texts, 2% of the letters are y, but in german texts, only 0.02%?
22:40:38  <__ln__> ÃŒuo haven't
22:41:21  <planetmaker> Ì is certainly more abundant in German than y
22:41:29  <planetmaker> actually... probably every letter is
22:41:43  <Eddi|zuHause> i think even x is more common
22:41:52  <Wolf01>
22:42:10  <fjb> We have a proper i.
22:42:59  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: wiki says 0.04%
22:43:05  <planetmaker> and q and x are more seldom
22:43:17  <planetmaker>
22:44:49  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe that table changed... or i just remember it wrong...
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22:46:39  <__ln__> "Die Umlaute À, ö und Ì wurden wie ae, oe und ue gezÀhlt"  <- silly
22:49:40  <Wolf01> italian - k - 0.00%... wrong! Today k is the most used letter in Italy! Boys use it everywhere also where it's not required, something like koffee, kat... only because it looks kool..ehm cool
22:49:52  <FauxFaux> Fuckers.
22:50:31  <Eddi|zuHause> they kopied KDE?
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22:50:46  <Eddi|zuHause> all KDE programs sound very german :p
22:51:36  <Wolf01> <Eddi|zuHause> they kopied KDE? <- maybe, maybe KDE copied them
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22:53:43  <Wolf01> ok, I think I might go to bed... does it matter if I'm already on the bed?
22:54:45  <__ln__> it does
22:55:06  <__ln__> your GOTO may get in an infinite loop
22:55:07  <Eddi|zuHause> btw: [Sa Jan 31 2009] [15:52:30] <Eddi|zuHause>      and every 2500th letter is a "y" (english: every 50th)
22:55:09  * Rubidium wonders how they distinguish between km and cm if they don't use a k
22:55:39  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: that, of course, was a french invention :p
22:55:53  <Wolf01> __ln__ ahaahh great one :D
22:56:17  <Rubidium> an apparantly they never abbreviate Crotone :)
22:56:58  <Vadtec> when using percent based maintenance intervals, is it X% less than maxium, as in max reliablity=96% * 15% interval = 82% reliablity the train goes in, or is it max 96% * 15% interval = 14% the train goes in?
22:57:09  <Eddi|zuHause> some of the element abbreviations in the periodic tables are derived from german names
22:57:19  <Eddi|zuHause> it's weirdly inconsistent, though...
22:57:30  <Rubidium> Crotone is an Italian province
22:57:31  <Eddi|zuHause> as if it was a patchwork done through several centuries :p
22:58:24  <Eddi|zuHause> lgy
22:58:27  <Eddi|zuHause> grr...
22:58:31  <Rubidium> oh... there's even an Italian political party with a k
22:58:37  <Eddi|zuHause> vertically offset keyboard
22:59:31  <Eddi|zuHause> the italian provinces are also the result of centuries long patchwork :p
22:59:50  <Vadtec> anyone?
23:00:18  <Eddi|zuHause> i think it's in percent of the maximum value
23:00:36  <Eddi|zuHause> like if max is 80% and you set 80%, then it's 64%
23:00:53  <Eddi|zuHause> but i'm totally not sure..
23:00:55  <Vadtec> so if i set it to 15%, when the vehicle get to max - 15%, it should go in for maintenance correct?
23:01:16  <Eddi|zuHause> no
23:01:22  <Eddi|zuHause> 15%*max
23:01:46  <Eddi|zuHause> so 15%*80%=12%
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23:02:17  <Vadtec> hmmm
23:02:32  <Vadtec> i have the perfect set of trains to try it on
23:04:20  <Vadtec> i have a train with max 96%, current 22%, interval set at 85%, so it should go in at... 81%
23:04:26  <Vadtec> yet it just completely blew by the depot
23:04:34  <Zuu> With conditional orders I belive you can do it the other way around. - Setting it to max X% of 100.
23:05:10  <Zuu> But then you have to eithe have a waypoint next to the depot or the decision will be made when they leave the previous station.
23:05:59  <Zuu> Not to mention the tediousness of that solution for all but AI-players. (but then implementing it into an AI is not free of charge in respect of time neither)
23:06:23  <Vadtec> if this is reversed like im thinking, this train will go in when it reaches 14%
23:06:45  <Vadtec>
23:06:54  <Vadtec> that says its max - (max * %)
23:07:08  <Vadtec> so if i set it to 85%, it has to get waaaaaaaay low before it goes in
23:08:35  <Eddi|zuHause> like i said, i'm totally not sure..
23:08:52  <Vadtec> well however its *supposed* to work, its not
23:09:04  <Vadtec> none of my vehicles are heading to their depots
23:09:20  <Vadtec> that train is now down to 5% reliablity
23:09:27  <Vadtec> and has passed the depot 4 times
23:09:32  <Zuu> Do you by chance use PBS signals?
23:09:43  <Zuu> With the depot of the main track?
23:09:46  <Eddi|zuHause> sometimes trains skip depots because of path reservations
23:09:58  <Vadtec> no, no PBS on this particular line
23:10:05  <Vadtec> this one is a big loop
23:10:10  <Vadtec> station A to staion B
23:10:12  <Vadtec> in a loop
23:10:21  <Vadtec> with the depot just off the line
23:10:36  <Eddi|zuHause> try placing block signals?
23:10:44  <Eddi|zuHause> or more depots?
23:10:54  <Vadtec> i have one way signals along the loop
23:11:29  <Vadtec> this train is at 0% reliability
23:11:35  <Vadtec> and it *still* passes the depot
23:11:48  <Zuu> Do they have orders?
23:11:51  <Vadtec> yes
23:12:07  <Vadtec> i never have trains without orders
23:12:10  <Vadtec> even in a loop
23:12:34  <Zuu> It could work, but the issue is that without orders, then the pathfinder do not run.
23:13:11  <Vadtec> well, screw this, im going back to days based
23:13:21  <Vadtec> cause something is obviously screwed up
23:13:38  <Zuu> All I remember about it is that it is not what you think it is.
23:13:51  <Vadtec> well ive tried high values and low values
23:13:55  <Zuu> If you switch back to day-based, does your test-case work then?
23:13:55  <Vadtec> the train is at 0%
23:14:17  <Vadtec> sec, the train is making its rounds
23:14:58  <Zuu> If it works, you colud try posting a screenshot + savegame + question to the OpenTTD Problems forum if you want to seek more understanding.
23:15:06  <Eddi|zuHause> did you change the actual train's interval or just the default in the settings?
23:15:19  <Vadtec> the trains interval
23:16:13  <Wolf01> 'night everybody
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23:16:42  <Vadtec> the train was last serviced on 1961/01/25
23:16:45  <Zuu> Hmm, perhaps I should also recommend you to search on the forums as you could get blamed for posting the same question that 100 people has already posted if it is easy to find on the search function.
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23:16:51  <Vadtec> its now 1963/08/20
23:17:15  <Vadtec> and its *still* ignoring the depot
23:17:45  <Vadtec> i somehow get the feeling that percent based has screwed up the maintenance tables
23:18:13  <Vadtec> ill have to mess with it later
23:18:15  <Vadtec> got things to do
23:18:20  <Vadtec> thanks for trying to help
23:19:47  <fjb> Does it find the depot?
23:20:02  <fjb> Are you using path signals?
23:22:13  <Zuu> He said no to PBS signals earlier, but without a screenshot it is hard to know if he has full understanding of all the signal types or not.
23:23:37  <Zuu> and/or the signal jargon
23:24:09  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... there's only really boring things on the forums...
23:24:32  <fjb> It's summer.
23:25:21  <Zuu> So what should *someone* post then? :-p
23:25:28  <FauxFaux> TITS
23:25:50  <Markk> Or GTFO.
23:25:51  <Markk> :D
23:27:58  <Eddi|zuHause> there once was a commercial spot or so, where four guys were standing in a stadium, and had "TITS" spelled on their bellies
23:28:12  <Eddi|zuHause> then two other guys arrived, making it spell "TITANS"
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23:31:13  <Zuu> hehe
23:32:45  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: if you're bored, maybe you can figure out
23:34:01  <Vadtec> yes, i understand the concept of all the signal types
23:34:12  <Vadtec> its pretty simple
23:34:19  <Vadtec> i have a one way loop for that train
23:34:30  <Vadtec> using simple one way signals
23:34:31  <Vadtec> no PBS
23:34:45  <Vadtec> the depot is between two signals
23:34:50  <Vadtec> right next to the line
23:35:25  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: you mean what the reporter thinks the bug is, what the reporter does, what the actual bug is, or how to fix it? :p
23:35:57  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: all four please :)
23:37:47  <Rubidium> although the "how to fix it" part alone is fine as well
23:38:52  <Eddi|zuHause> so basically, when releasing the mouse after a drag&drop operation, it selects the convert tool?
23:39:07  <Eddi|zuHause> i suspect some weird mouse driver/gesture thingie
23:39:15  <Rubidium> yes, except when you press Ctrl
23:40:04  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: agreed :(
23:42:39  <Zuu> He should try to select another hotkey for convert rail and see if the problem remains.
23:43:15  <Eddi|zuHause> hotkeys are not in 1.0.2
23:43:17  <Rubidium> Zuu: won't work
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23:43:49  <Rubidium> and I don't dare to tell him to install a nightly as it's going to be a guaranteed disaster as he simply can't follow some steps
23:44:10  <Zuu> hmm, perhaps I should read the FS task :-)
23:44:32  <Rubidium> ask him something and he starts doing something completely different
23:45:17  <Rubidium> he says "problem happens for last four version", I ask "which versions" and then he starts reinstalling the game...
23:45:21  <Zuu> And he writes that he is an IT professional :-)
23:45:42  <frosch123> of course, else he would have made it work long ago
23:45:44  <Rubidium> if you have to write that you're probably the guy refilling printers
23:47:06  <Eddi|zuHause> typical windows user reaction
23:47:16  <Eddi|zuHause> "it doesn't work, i try reinstalling"
23:47:59  <Zuu> Is he possible a google translate user?
23:48:02  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: i keep thinking of the girl in The IT Crowd ;)
23:48:25  <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: doesn't really look like it...
23:48:49  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: yes, that'd be an IT professional as well
23:49:14  <Eddi|zuHause> "What does 'IT' actually stand for?" :p
23:49:16  <Rubidium> although she kinda listens to the real professionals
23:49:27  <Rubidium> information technology
23:49:40  <Rubidium> so that might even include receptionists
23:49:41  <Eddi|zuHause> no, i mean that was an actual phrase in the series ;)
23:50:10  <Rubidium> and don't google for google :)
23:50:17  <Rubidium> this box contains the internet
23:50:56  <Eddi|zuHause> she was doing a job interview for an IT position, and was asked this question
23:51:02  <Eddi|zuHause> and didn't know the answer...
23:51:18  <Eddi|zuHause> not sure, was either season 3 or 4
23:51:59  <Rubidium> 0118 999 881 999 119 7253 :)
23:52:31  <Rubidium> though I like that whole episode :)
23:53:19  <Eddi|zuHause> that was like the second episode or so
23:53:32  <Eddi|zuHause> they did a reprise on that later ;)
23:55:34  <Zuu> "I think Ill try uninstall the version I've got now an dreinstling it as I've had it upgraded since openttd became updatable and I've added some of the TTDX patch addon in there that might repair it." ^^
23:56:17  <Zuu> Perhaps a screenshot would be good to know that he is actually using OpenTTD. :-)
23:56:35  <Rubidium> Zuu: in the rar
23:56:56  <Zuu> Oh, sorry missed the attachment.
23:57:20  <Rubidium> so... assuming that is right, he's been using OpenTTD since 0.2.0
23:59:07  <Rubidium> maybe he meant 4 major releases, so he might have the issues since 0.5.x
23:59:28  <Rubidium> and he might just be using some patched binary

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