Log for #openttd on 19th July 2010:
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00:22:14  <Terkhen> good night
00:22:41  <PeterT> 'night
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02:11:25  <nekomaster> Zorp
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02:29:14  <Pikka> newp
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02:39:20  <Vadtec> Pikka: hi, i have a question about your NARS GRF set
02:39:35  <Pikka> k
02:40:00  <Vadtec> how many cars/engines can you fit into one square? is it 3 or 4?
02:41:37  <Pikka> it depends how long they are
02:41:56  <Vadtec> Pikka: so it varies based on train setup
02:42:01  <Pikka> yes
02:42:09  <Vadtec> hmmm, kk
02:42:11  <Pikka> there's a little number at the end of each train line in the depot window
02:42:17  <Pikka> that tells you how long the train is in half-tiles
02:42:32  <Vadtec> yeah
02:42:40  <Vadtec> i just wasnt sure if your cars/engines were the same size
02:42:56  <Vadtec> i didnt think they were cause the icons looked to be different sizes
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02:44:48  <Vadtec> Pikka: thanks for the info, and i enjoy your NARS set, it adds a lot of dimension to the game (specially if you start in 1830) :D
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02:51:48  <on3pk> Hey guys.  Is there a way to force start an industry?  I haven't had oil for so long :(
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03:02:55  <duckblaster> ctrl + alt + c, turn on modify production values
03:05:46  <on3pk> ok
03:06:09  <on3pk> After that, how can I start an oil well?
03:06:15  <on3pk> I mean, if possible.
03:06:47  <Pikka> not what duckblaster said
03:07:25  <Pikka> but instead, go to advanced settings -> economy -> industries and make sure "manual primary industry construction method" isn't "none"
03:08:18  <Pikka> then click and hold the "industry" button on the top bar and go to "fund new industry", and either build or prospect for oil wells depending on what the construction method is set to
03:09:10  <on3pk> wow
03:09:13  <on3pk> ok thanks!
03:09:38  <on3pk> It looks like the industries cost a lot, but, I could always... cheat... for more money :/    I wish I knew why the oil well closed.  I was drawing oil from it...
03:10:17  <Pikka> if you're playing with the default industries and the temperate climate, oil wells never increase production
03:10:26  <Pikka> they're supposed to close down and be replaced with oil rigs
03:12:11  <on3pk> ah ok.  I had other industries pop up, new factory, etc.  But oil... not so much.  I'm playing on a very small map.  Could that be why?
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07:16:59  <Terkhen> good morning
07:30:53  <Rubidium> oi
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08:31:44  * peter1138 grumbles at some crappy code that won't compile
08:31:56  <peter1138> someone didn't understand function pointers, and put casts EVERYWHERE
08:32:09  <Celestar> morning
08:32:10  <peter1138> no, void p() isn't the same as int p() either
08:32:24  <Celestar> lol
08:32:31  <peter1138> also, old style declarations
08:34:52  <Alberth> morning
08:36:14  <Alberth> perhaps the code is equally old :p
08:41:12  <peter1138> not quite that old, but it hasn't been maintained for about 8years
08:44:05  <dih> wasn't me :-P
08:45:22  <Alberth> one would think that y2k would have been a good moment to drop such silly code :p
08:48:05  * peter1138 blames dih anyway
08:48:37  <__ln__> y2k was so overrated
08:49:20  <Alberth> we kept too much old junk
08:50:49  <Alberth> but in 22 years we get another chance :p
08:51:21  <__ln__> more like 27 years....?
08:52:08  <Alberth> apparently :)
08:53:52  <peter1138> heh
08:54:40  <__ln__> in VC++ 2008 (32-bit), time_t is already 64-bit.  so there's some hope.
08:55:27  <Rubidium> Alberth: why? By then they'll just do one libc ABI change and everything's fine again
08:57:03  <peter1138> code will still be using int to store timestamps, though
08:57:04  <Alberth> of the existing production code that is used all the time, but nobody has sources nor a working compiler anymore? wow
08:58:31  <Rubidium> then they'll just make ints 64 bits as well :)
08:58:43  <peter1138> haha
08:59:09  <Rubidium> at least all applications dynamically linking to libicu won't have that problem :)
09:01:13  * Alberth is relieved that OpenTTD is y2038 safe :D
09:01:21  <Rubidium> is it?
09:01:37  <Alberth> don't we link dynamically with libicu?
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09:02:26  <Rubidium> true
09:02:37  <Rubidium> but you can make one that doesn't link to it
09:04:29  <Rubidium> and we use time_t + time + localtime
09:05:21  <Alberth> Hmm, so much for literal interpretation of statements
09:06:52  <Alberth> anyways, let's see whether my 3rd attempt at industry chains works better.
09:07:58  <SmatZ> Mon Jul 19 00:02:43 CEST 2060 here
09:08:04  <SmatZ> and OpenTTD works just fine
09:08:09  <SmatZ> 64bit system though
09:08:49  <Alberth> Good morning, future SmatZ
09:09:20  <SmatZ> hello, Alberth of the past :)
09:09:42  <Rubidium> oh... then you must have OpenTTD 6.0.0 :)
09:09:54  <SmatZ> hehe :)
09:10:58  <Alberth> unfortunately, we cannot run that version at our machines :(
09:11:07  <SmatZ> :(
09:11:21  <Terkhen> it must have all the features proposed at the 2.0.0 thread
09:11:52  <SmatZ> :)
09:12:10  <SmatZ> I can't say you what will happen, sorry
09:12:15  <SmatZ> *tell
09:14:09  <Alberth> you already did, at 2060 earth still exists with people on it, and OpenTTD also is still there.
09:14:32  <Rubidium> TrueBrain: gives a 403 which kinda screws the downloading of the installer for some people
09:14:44  <SmatZ> hehe :)
09:14:57  <SmatZ> the 32bit version works fine too from what I tested
09:15:11  <SmatZ> like, sorting files in a directory by date and joining multiplayer game
09:15:28  <Rubidium> SmatZ: and debug output with dates?
09:15:50  * SmatZ tests
09:17:22  <SmatZ> [1924-06-12 16:44:01] dbg: [net] Map generation percentage complete: 55
09:17:27  <SmatZ> nope
09:18:29  <SmatZ> [2060-07-19 00:13:24] dbg: [net] Map generation percentage complete: 70
09:18:34  <SmatZ> fine on the 64bit system
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09:24:34  * Celestar wants to understand svn merge tracking :S
09:30:27  <FauxFaux> You really don't.
09:30:46  <Celestar> why? :P
09:31:06  <FauxFaux> It'll make you really sad, like it makes me really sad on a daily basis.
09:31:15  <Celestar> well
09:31:22  <Celestar> I'm currently mostly working with Clearcase at work.
09:31:24  <Celestar> ...
09:31:55  <FauxFaux> Tee hee hee.
09:32:13  <Celestar> well
09:32:18  <Celestar> then maybe you can help me.
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09:32:33  <Celestar> here's a trunk, and a branch has been created.
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09:32:49  <Celestar> people are trying to merge changes from trunk to branch
09:33:01  <Celestar> while others are mergeing changes from branch to trunk.
09:33:14  <Celestar> in the end, branch should be --reintegrate'd to trunk.
09:33:28  <Celestar> and I'm working whether that works without causing a minor explosion on the server.
09:34:36  <Celestar> s/working/wondering
09:35:19  <Alberth> we have been doing branch-based development with svn for years at work
09:35:48  <Alberth> we use UQDS of, and a tool they built for it, Combinator (
09:35:51  <Rubidium> but are you using svn $recent's merge tracking?
09:36:22  <Alberth> basically they do merge tracking by not doing merge tracking, but by creating a new branch on each update from trunk
09:36:27  <Rubidium> for what it's worth: I'm just stripping that merge tracking information from the 1.0 branch :)
09:37:43  <Alberth> that's possible, because making a new copy of trunk or a branch is very cheap
09:37:59  <Alberth> although I have no numbers available for you
09:38:36  <Alberth> UQDS:
09:38:38  <Rubidium> hmm... is Tron working on that project?
09:38:58  <Rubidium> "do some stuff" commit message would suggest so
09:39:27  <Celestar> lmao
09:39:48  <Rubidium> jeez... "no for real this log message is right" <- also very useful when figuring out what it does
09:39:49  <Alberth> afaik is bankrupt now, but they made very nice stuff
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09:44:26  <FauxFaux> (We only use disposable branches and cherry-picking with svn because the merging doesn't work.)
09:46:39  <Celestar> why doesn't merging work?
09:47:25  <Alberth> eg updating a file from a branch while it has been deleted in trunk is silently ignored
09:48:03  <Alberth> removing a file in a branch and later replacing it with another one with the same name is also very nice to merge back
09:48:16  <Celestar> wtb [git]
09:48:48  <Alberth> wtb?
09:49:03  <Celestar> want to buy
09:49:21  <Alberth> no thank you, hg is much nicer :)
09:49:31  <Celestar> it's rather similar tbh
09:49:50  <Alberth> yes, one reason why I never bothered to get in close contact with git
09:50:48  <Alberth> We started using svn before hg/git existed. Also, for people not used to working with VCSes, svn is much simpler.
09:51:13  <Celestar> ages
09:51:23  <Alberth> and last but not least, combinator didn't (doesn't??) work with hg/git
09:51:33  <Celestar> but once you get the hang of git or ht, it's lightyears ahead of svn
09:52:07  <Alberth> that's why I use it at home :)
09:56:15  <Alberth> At work, I only use 'svn up', and 'svn commit. All the branching/merging stuff is done by the combinator tool. It covers our needs, and there is no reason to change.
09:56:48  <Celestar> ever used rational clearcase?
09:56:53  <Alberth> no
09:57:01  <Celestar> lucky you
09:57:08  <Celestar> well it has really good merge tracking
09:57:13  <Celestar> the rest is a nightmare
09:57:40  <Celestar> I don't like the concept that each file has its own version tree
09:57:47  <Alberth> I came from RCS and CVS :)
09:58:10  <Celestar> cvs was another nightmare
09:58:28  * FauxFaux is using git locally and eventually pushing stuff up to whatever svn branch wants it.
09:58:30  <Alberth> RCS and CVS are also file-based
09:58:57  <Celestar> the nice thing about clearclase is that you can access any version with any tool
09:59:08  <Celestar> vi "file@@version"
09:59:30  <Alberth> but it is must be a nightmare to do branching in there. I only tried tagging, and that was already complicated.
09:59:52  <FauxFaux> zcat .git/objects/3f/afe34e8e34e2a890217ada8 is much more convenient!
09:59:53  <Celestar> you have lots of them
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10:00:05  <Wolf01> hello
10:00:51  <Celestar> you need tons of branches becase by default clearcase is lock-edit-unlock
10:01:28  <Alberth> hg cat -r X myfile | vi -    :)
10:01:44  <Alberth> hello Wolf01
10:02:25  <Alberth> Celestar: sounds a lot like RCS :)
10:07:53  <Celestar> worse :P
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10:17:19  * Alberth is finding out how to revert a commit not on-top with hg
10:18:01  <Rubidium> apply the inverse diff
10:18:26  <Rubidium> or do you want to completely remove it from history? In that case... reset and commit everything from after that
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10:19:40  <Ammler> there is backout, but that needs merge after it
10:20:25  <Alberth> backout seems to be the right approach
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10:21:19  <Ammler> if the repo is private, you could rebase and strip
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10:26:45  <Alberth> I am not feeling that adventorous today :)
10:27:10  <Alberth> *adventurous
10:27:26  <Ammler> depends if you like to keep it in history
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10:36:32  <Alberth> hmm, --merge did not work, but a manual merge did the trick
10:52:53  <Celestar> ok I created a file in br A, merged to br B. in trunk, I merged from br A, and them from br B. the file that has been created gives me a tree conflict on the second merge. what am I doing wrong here?
10:52:53  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20181 /extra/website/bananas/ [Website] -Fix: tabs in the file/md5 lists of graphics, sound and music sets were not stripped properly
10:54:03  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20182 /extra/website/bananas/ [Website] -Fix: give a useful error message when a base set or AI has a too short shortname
10:54:18  <Celestar> hm.
10:54:37  <Celestar> 1k x 1k map with cargodist is really impossible to manage on your own :P
11:01:49  <fjb> You are using the wrong rcs.
11:02:16  <Alberth> merging from one branch to another is way too messy to handle by svn
11:02:50  <Alberth> each branch seperately to/from trunk is difficult enough
11:03:40  <Alberth> perhaps even with a DVCS you'll get into trouble, I don't know
11:04:29  <Eddi|zuHause> i really need to play a long term game with cargodist, but the savegame compatibility issue blocks me...
11:04:54  <Rubidium> then don't upgrade
11:05:01  * andythenorth is scared of what FIRS changes will be needed for cargo dist :P
11:05:03  <Rubidium> after all... people are still playing 0.5.3
11:05:41  <Alberth> addicted to the old AI ;)
11:06:06  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: there shouldn't need to be any changes
11:10:31  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: actually... if you want to do it right... you'd need NewGRFs to export the optimal cargo relative amounts and the maximum monthly amount it'll accept. That way cargodist can optimise produced cargos and not send stuff that won't be accepted
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11:11:42  <Rubidium> although that would require proper train schedules as well so it can determine when the cargo will arrive and such
11:12:21  <Ammler> micro-micro management
11:13:29  <Rubidium> and for added goodness it should take the vehicle capacity into account as well, so it isn't going to knowingly overload vehicles
11:13:45  <andythenorth> conveniently FIRS industries will just accept any amount :)
11:13:56  <andythenorth> but it would be a waste of engineering / farm supplies
11:16:28  <Eddi|zuHause> you can send one truck through all farms in a cluster, and it will drop off a share of its load at each
11:16:40  <Eddi|zuHause> means less micromanagement of the truck route
11:17:14  <Eddi|zuHause> provided a round trip doesn't take too long, so the links don't time out
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11:18:42  <Alberth> Rubidium: NewGRF doesn't sound like the right place to decide network capacities
11:19:19  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: it's about a notion of "industry capacities"
11:19:54  <Eddi|zuHause> so things like the ECS and PBI stockpile limits get machine readable
11:20:04  <Eddi|zuHause> for AIs and Cargodist to use
11:25:25  <Alberth> let's start by making a vehicle wait while unloading until all its cargo is accepted
11:25:50  * Alberth ponders whether that would be sufficient
11:26:43  <Eddi|zuHause> so if an industry closes it will just unload forever?
11:27:16  <Alberth> yes, just like a vehicle loads forever when an industry disappears
11:27:38  <Alberth> (with full load)
11:29:44  <Eddi|zuHause> sounds like an interesting concep
11:29:45  <Eddi|zuHause> t
11:30:36  <andythenorth> so AI and cargo dist have no way of knowing the 'desirable' level of input to an industry
11:30:57  <andythenorth> which would be problematic for FIRS, PBI, ECS by George and TAI
11:31:05  <Eddi|zuHause> i think the problem was that station acceptance was delayed wrt industry acceptance. so the industry already blocks cargo, while the station still allows unloading
11:31:17  <Eddi|zuHause> so the additionally unloaded cargo vanished in nirvana
11:31:33  <Eddi|zuHause> or was bounced back into the station
11:31:47  <andythenorth> someone (frosch?) said that was basically a thorny unresolvable issue in any sane time frame
11:32:23  <andythenorth> it's a non-issue for FIRS because there are no acceptance limits
11:32:44  <andythenorth> the 'supplies' behaviour however would be a problem for AIs (and possibly cargodist)
11:32:59  <andythenorth> as would town-growth cargos if they become newgrf controlled :P
11:33:42  <Ammler> Alberth: but that would need a option in orders to force a unload like now
11:34:56  <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: yes, that's how i understood it. an additional unload order, "wait until full acceptance", next to "unload if accepted"
11:35:10  <Ammler> e.g. you transport coal to steel mill station and the excess by other train to power station
11:35:38  <Eddi|zuHause> also, you still have "unload all"
11:36:46  <Alberth> Ammler: correct
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11:38:11  <Rubidium> talking about unload: Ctrl+Click unload -> transfer and leave empty?
11:38:37  <Rubidium> but what when the order is "transfer and leave empty"?
11:38:46  <Rubidium> back to the "default" order?
11:39:23  <Alberth> no, about delaying unloading until the cargo is accepted
11:39:45  <Alberth> *all the cargo*
11:39:59  <Alberth> ie let the vehicle wait
11:40:58  <Rubidium> Alberth: come up with a name and it should be relatively easy to implement
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11:47:43  <Alberth> Hmm, current "Unload if accepted" is useful behavior is actually 'unload partially until not accepted' ?
11:48:56  <Rubidium> "unload while accepted" might be a better name, but I'm not sure of that
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11:52:02  <Alberth> 'unload all' -> 'always unload'  perhaps?
11:52:41  <Alberth> 'wait until empty' ?
11:52:47  <Eddi|zuHause> "always unload", "unload as long as accepted". "wait until accepted"?
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11:53:14  <Eddi|zuHause> difficult to find a suitable and short wording
11:53:15  <Alberth> a bit shorter would be nice :)
11:54:05  <Alberth> unload until empty?
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11:54:31  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: that sounds misleading
11:54:37  <Alberth> unload until all accepted     but it is a bit long-ish
11:54:56  <Eddi|zuHause> people will ask "but it also goes empty without that??"
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11:55:19  <Alberth> hello glx
11:55:57  <Eddi|zuHause> especially since it is only useful in a few cases, when someone actually uses a GRF with stockpile limits
11:57:13  <Alberth> perhaps make the current 'unload if accepted' 'unload until denied'
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11:58:11  <Eddi|zuHause> a ghost wolf!
11:58:12  <Alberth> unfortunately, making the new one 'unload if accepted', would be highly confusing
11:58:23  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm doubly scared
11:58:26  <Wolf01> aha!
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11:58:35  <Wolf01> call the wolfbusters!
11:59:05  <Alberth> they are called channel admin, and they kick people off the channel :p
11:59:29  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: "denied" sounds strange...
11:59:40  <Eddi|zuHause> that word isn't used anywhere else in the game...
12:00:15  <peter1138> meh, removing a large list of numbers from a large list of numbers... how to do it fast? :s
12:00:50  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: sort both lists?
12:01:00  <Rubidium> any pattern in the list to remove (or to retain)?
12:01:09  <Alberth> set difference :p
12:01:18  <peter1138> no pattern
12:01:31  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: sets are usually sorted lists ;)
12:01:49  <Alberth> oh? mine are usually hashed :)
12:02:03  <Alberth> duplicates in the list of numbers to remove?
12:02:07  <Eddi|zuHause> you can sort hashes ;)
12:02:07  <peter1138> it could be sorted
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12:03:00  <peter1138> no duplicates
12:03:40  <Rubidium> sort both, run it through diff to determine whatever exists in both, some sed magic to clean it up
12:03:48  <Alberth> make a set of the numbers to remove, then walk through the list, removing it when it is also in the set, and remove the value from the set
12:03:50  <peter1138> errr
12:03:53  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: after sorting, it should be a linear algorithm to compare two elements, and increment the pointer of the lower element
12:03:55  <Rubidium> (assuming it's a one time operation)
12:03:56  <peter1138> programmatically
12:04:25  <Eddi|zuHause> in case of equality, throw away the element
12:05:12  <Eddi|zuHause> O(n logn) for the sorting, O(n) for the comparison
12:05:19  <Alberth> Rubidium: 'delay until accepted' ?
12:05:46  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: i'd use "wait", like for loading
12:05:50  <Alberth> or 'delay until empty'
12:06:16  <Rubidium> peter1138: what's the difference in magnitude between both big lists?
12:06:26  <Eddi|zuHause> "wait until accepted"
12:06:55  <peter1138> could be huge, could be tiny
12:06:56  <Alberth> there is no 'wait' in loading
12:07:39  <Alberth> but 'wait' may be better.
12:08:15  <Eddi|zuHause> is it not "wait for full load"? maybe i remember it differently...
12:08:16  <Rubidium> anyhow, I'd sort the shortest list, then go through the big list and for each check whether it's in the short list using binary search. Should give you O(m log m + n log m)
12:08:56  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: 'full load any cargo' / 'full load all cargo'
12:09:54  <Rubidium> and if you use a hash instead of sorted list... you'd get O(m + n), but that uses significantly more memory than just sorting the short list
12:11:03  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium's option may be worthwhile if it's not too expensive to determine the size of the two lists
12:12:02  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: you'd need to determine the size in any case
12:12:56  <Rubidium> as otherwise you can't sort it
12:13:03  <Eddi|zuHause> there are methods to sort a list without knowing its size beforehand
12:13:13  <peter1138> i know the size
12:13:15  <Eddi|zuHause> e.g. insert them in a tree
12:14:04  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: in the end you'll "know" the size anyway, and n log n + m log m is arguably smaller than n + m + m log m
12:14:24  <Rubidium> unless n and m are really small
12:14:45  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: asymptotically, maybe ;)
12:15:06  <peter1138> size of both lists can be 0
12:15:21  <peter1138> and can also be in the order of 10000000
12:16:36  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: as long as you can easily determine which is the smaller list, Rubidium's approach sounds best
12:17:55  <peter1138> yeah, that's always stored
12:18:47  <peter1138> but i'm trying to think first :D
12:19:01  <Rubidium> what language are you coding in and what's the type of the lists?
12:19:11  <peter1138> C, integer
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12:19:20  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... there may be a problem if in "A\B" operation, B is the longer list
12:19:37  <Rubidium> ah, okay... so no fancy libraries to use
12:19:38  <peter1138> list of things to remove is always smaller
12:19:43  <Eddi|zuHause> then you'd sort A, and have to remove items from A
12:20:02  <Eddi|zuHause> you'd end up resizing A all the time, if done wrong
12:20:44  <peter1138> currently i use the "replace item with item at the end of the list" method to do the actual remove, so it's unsorted
12:22:00  <Eddi|zuHause> ok, if you know for sure that B is always shorter, then sort B, and remove item from A if the binary search in B hits
12:22:06  <Eddi|zuHause> then A needn't be sorted
12:24:30  <Alberth> except you need to search whole A
12:24:57  <peter1138> anyway
12:25:03  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: an algorithm isn't really sensible if you don't read at least the whole input once :p
12:25:33  <peter1138> you need to search the whole of A for every B? so no difference.
12:26:12  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: no, you go through A once, and for each entry in A, you do a binary search in sorted B
12:26:24  <Eddi|zuHause> if found -> delete, if not found -> keep
12:27:10  <Rubidium> <- something like that
12:28:23  <Rubidium> and... no warranty, except a guaranteed bug
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12:49:08  <CheatZilla> Hi.
12:49:28  <Alberth> hai
12:49:34  <CheatZilla> why does OTTD load faster with legacy gfx?
12:49:50  <Belugas> hello
12:50:32  <Eddi|zuHause> faster than what? how does this express itself?
12:50:53  <Alberth> hello Sir Belugas!
12:51:10  <Belugas> ho ho ho!  Hello King Alberth ;)
12:51:14  <CheatZilla> opengfx+sfx takes about half a second more time to start the game app.
12:51:24  <Alberth> oh dear, 1/2 a second!
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12:51:29  <glx> what is the first start of the day?
12:51:37  <glx> *was it?
12:52:19  <CheatZilla> when I launch the game with open set, it takes more time than with legacy set
12:52:26  <Eddi|zuHause> the main task at startup is reading through all .tar, .grf and other files, to check their md5sum
12:52:26  <Alberth> christmas must be early for Belugas this year :)
12:52:56  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe this is the time of the year where it starts snowing at Belugas' place :p
12:53:15  <Alberth> good, we can use some snow here :)
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12:53:41  <Eddi|zuHause> snow doesn't usually hold long at 35°C ;)
12:53:48  <CheatZilla> I mean, even if I installed the game's "open" sets during the installation procedure (at which, tar/7z packages are already unpacked).
12:54:04  <Eddi|zuHause> although, it has got a little colder now, only like 28°C
12:54:13  <Alberth> well, the free set is twice as big
12:54:37  <Alberth> at least, at my system
12:54:57  <Alberth> but why is 1/2 second important?
12:55:17  <Eddi|zuHause> # I want to satisfy, the undisclosed desires in your heart
12:55:18  <Alberth> booting the system takes way longer
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12:57:31  <CheatZilla> I hate damn disconns
12:57:39  <CheatZilla> my inet is a yucker
12:57:52  <Belugas> DON'T TALK ABOUT SNOW YOU... something ugly
12:58:12  *** CheatZilla is now known as EggXplosioN
12:59:05  <EggXplosioN> so, even not in 7z's, open base sets make the game load slower than with legacy set
12:59:22  <EggXplosioN> why is that?
12:59:35  <Eddi|zuHause> what? the game doesn't read 7z's
13:00:50  <Eddi|zuHause> EggXplosioN: the explanation was already there: reading a file twice as big takes twice the time. simple.
13:01:06  <Alberth> why is that so important?
13:01:09  <Belugas> EggXplosioN, did you really took the time to measure that up? or is it a simple guess of yours?
13:01:45  <Alberth> I mean, 1/2 a second. Take one zip of your tea, and it is done.
13:02:08  <Belugas> plus, may I had that the game does not load the open sets the same way it does for the "legacy" one...
13:02:26  <EggXplosioN> the open sounds alone weight as much as the original DOS rip altogether.
13:02:52  <Belugas> size does not matter
13:03:04  <Belugas> but either way, as Alberth says... half a second is really not the end of the world...
13:03:55  <Alberth> OpenTTD just doesn't hide the delay by a spammy banner-window
13:04:12  <Alberth> so it seems longer
13:06:06  <__ln__> hey this the guy who thinks OpenTTD or TTD is "abandoned".
13:07:10  <EggXplosioN> Why does OTTD need TTD by Fish (not original DOS one)?
13:07:33  <Alberth> what is TTD by Fish?
13:07:37  <Alberth> never heard of it
13:07:40  <Eddi|zuHause> that is only valid for the music, it can use the dos graphics fine
13:07:53  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: "Fish UK" is the company that did the windows port
13:08:03  <Alberth> ah, thank you
13:08:27  <Eddi|zuHause> it's in the title screen of TTD Win ;)
13:08:49  <Alberth> indeed, I used to run OpenTTD with a DOS set. It runs fine.
13:09:08  <EggXplosioN> some abandonware sites have original TTD with "de" graphics.
13:09:19  <Eddi|zuHause> so?
13:10:03  <EggXplosioN> so, there must be a double check for DOS sets that are found as de - as it may be an illegal dload (e.q. from
13:10:29  <Eddi|zuHause> what??
13:11:00  <Eddi|zuHause> there's no possible way we can detect whether the files are copied from a legal CD or an illegal download
13:11:11  <Ammler> legacy is something else, "we" call those originals
13:11:14  <EggXplosioN> TTD from has english localization but de (german) graphics.
13:11:16  <glx> all downloads are illegal
13:12:15  <Eddi|zuHause> i thought TTD was always multi-lingual
13:12:20  <Eddi|zuHause> not "localized"
13:12:32  * TrueBrain gets his popcorn
13:12:35  <Ammler> there is a de graphcis set somehow
13:12:44  <Eddi|zuHause> just the files got somehow corrupted in the german release
13:12:51  <Ammler> at least what the obms tells
13:12:59  <Ammler> obg*
13:13:04  <EggXplosioN> it says "graphics from german version".
13:13:22  * Alberth grabs two drinks, and gives one to TrueBrain
13:13:27  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, "version released in germany", not "version in german language"
13:14:09  <Ammler> and why whould that be illegal? :-)
13:14:27  <TrueBrain> cheers Alberth
13:15:02  <EggXplosioN> ok, the rip has no russian translation, but english UI.
13:15:10  <Alberth> hmm, saving a file before a compile works better :)
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13:15:37  <EggXplosioN> english UI but german version set. that's a bit weird.
13:16:33  <glx> there was no russian version anyway
13:16:36  <Ammler> I never knew, how to change language in TTD
13:16:48  <glx> Ammler: at install
13:17:24  <Ammler> ah, that explains :-)
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13:27:10  <EggXplosioN> sending to imageshack
13:29:54  <EggXplosioN>
13:31:27  <Eddi|zuHause> so, what is one supposed to see there?
13:32:04  <EggXplosioN> so, DE graphics identifier must engage a cd-key checkup
13:32:35  <Alberth> can somebody summarize the purpose of this discussion please?
13:32:50  <Eddi|zuHause> no, it's the md5sum of the file
13:33:19  <Eddi|zuHause> one of the files from the german version differs slightly from the one on the english version
13:33:30  <Eddi|zuHause> that's why it has a different checksum
13:33:41  <Eddi|zuHause> nothing else is different
13:35:23  <EggXplosioN> probably an alphabet extension file?
13:35:34  <Eddi|zuHause> no
13:35:48  <Eddi|zuHause> some of the sprites got corrputed during release process, i think
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13:36:30  <perk11> Eddi|zuHause: what is different in german version?
13:36:46  <Eddi|zuHause> perk11: nothing, except for the corrupted sprites
13:36:46  <glx> some toyland sprites IIRC
13:36:50  <perk11> ok
13:40:05  <EggXplosioN> broken toyland sprites?
13:40:31  <__ln__> germany is a toyland?
13:41:18  <EggXplosioN> german release got broken toyland sprites? that's w3ird
13:41:51  <Alberth> why the DOS version also has a broken truck.
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13:43:04  <EggXplosioN> ok, I do not play TTD1. I only sometimes play OTTD.
13:44:02  *** EggXplosioN is now known as The_disgusting_one
13:44:12  * The_disgusting_one explodes.
13:45:12  <glx> Alberth: not broken, missing :)
13:45:28  * The_disgusting_one waits for Civ5 - freeciv is just an iphone creep.
13:45:58  <Alberth> glx: oh, I thought the offset of one of them was just wrong.
13:46:40  <glx> the one with different cabin when loaded, right ?
13:46:58  <The_disgusting_one> ...
13:47:12  <Alberth> It was missing a piece of truck in one direction iirc
13:47:25  <PeterT> you just broke my timestamps.
13:48:08  <Alberth> good that I mostly live without time.
13:48:25  <PeterT> not you, Alberth :p
13:48:33  <PeterT> The_disgusting_one with his overly long nick
13:49:15  <Alberth> I can make long nicks too :p
13:49:43  *** The_disgusting_one is now known as TheWrongGame
13:49:58  <PeterT> Alberth: but you haven't, so you're fine
13:50:25  <TheWrongGame> all games not by Microprose/firaxis are just plain w.r.o.n.g.
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13:51:15  <Zuu> So since OpenTTD is made by the OpenTTD developers, it is wrong? :-p
13:51:45  <TheWrongGame> OpenTTD is revival of a Microprose game :)
13:51:50  <Alberth> Zuu: obviously
13:51:56  <Belugas> does it mean that all Lego sets are wrong?
13:52:03  <Belugas> does it mean chess is wrong?
13:52:12  <__ln__> Zuu: OpenTTD is made by Chris Sawyer, with contributions from so-called OpenTTD developers.
13:52:32  <TheWrongGame> I mean, all computer games.
13:54:24  <TheWrongGame> S.M. and C.S. are the only people who can create good games without being all like "DX10 OR NOTHIN'!" (like Bethesda or other zerg hiveminds).
13:55:00  <Eddi|zuHause> btw: UBISoft's copy protection works, i have still not pirated Siedler 7! :p
13:56:02  <TheWrongGame> lol, all ya need is a steam server emulator and a steam copy of the game
13:56:27  <Eddi|zuHause> that's not what i meant...
13:57:23  <glx> you just need to buy the game if you like it
13:57:40  <TheWrongGame> but ubi's last cool games were Beyond Good and Evil (if you're a gamecube fanboy) or Rayman (if you're a DOSer).
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14:00:02  <TheWrongGame> BioWare (medics) - still making games out of their failsome RPG, Baldur's Gate (based on DnD). :) Western school of game-making fails.
14:00:15  * Belugas thinks that all Myst games are absolute delight and do not think TheWrongGame shold make some bold statements, only if words "Pesonanly, I think" are added to his sentences
14:00:25  <Celestar> D&D rocks
14:00:35  <PeterT> I can confirm that FS#3530 is fixed
14:01:56  <TheWrongGame> in my opinion, Final Fantasy 9-14 are the biggest fails of Eastern school of game-making.
14:02:01  <Eddi|zuHause> why do the town names change if i "restart" a map?
14:02:35  <Celestar> TheWrongGame: I haven't played FF since 8 :(
14:02:40  <TheWrongGame> probably some weird bug, unsure of age.
14:03:00  *** Fuco [~dota.keys@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:05:22  <TheWrongGame> Akella is the biggest fail in game development
14:06:11  <TheWrongGame> Whenever a great series is grabbed by Akella, the next release is just disgusting.
14:06:47  <TheWrongGame> e.q. Disciples
14:07:21  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know any single ones of the games you mentioned in the last 10 minutes
14:07:32  <TheWrongGame> Disciples 1 and 2 - fine, but .dat (Akella's studio) failed the 3rd release. :(
14:10:42  <TheWrongGame> Heroes of Might and Magic 1-3 - fine, 4 - a lame attempt at improving the series, (UbiSoft, Nival Interactive) - 3x fail.
14:11:13  <TheWrongGame> 5 (ubisoft, Nival) *
14:14:07  <TrueBrain> lol, new OpenTTD policy: if you don't reply to an email within 2 days, you just get the same mail again
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14:16:47  <glx> thanks peer ;)
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14:17:37  <PeterT> you're welcome
14:20:50  <Eddi|zuHause> i think PeterT has a "T" filter :p
14:21:18  <PeterT> I assumed he meant "thanks peter ;)"
14:24:22  <Eddi|zuHause> what does it tell about your level of egocentrics, if you misread other people's names as "oh, i thought it sounded similar to mine"?
14:25:25  <glx> no I meant peer
14:26:27  <PeterT> Eddi|zuHause: that's clearly not what I meant, I thought he made a mistake
14:26:31  <PeterT> but he didn't, so sorry
14:30:00  <Eddi|zuHause> when one refers to "peer" on IRC, one usually means the little gnome in the network that resets connections.
14:30:29  <PeterT> OH, I get the joke
14:30:30  * PeterT fails
14:30:35  <PeterT> * TheWrongGame has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
14:30:37  <PeterT> <glx> thanks peer ;)
14:32:18  <dih> yes, very kind indeed ^^
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15:19:31  <Eddi|zuHause> that "new daylength patch approach" kinda rings my alarm bells, but i can't pinpoint it...
15:25:50  <Sacro> daylength patch?
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15:26:43  <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: which approach?
15:27:16  <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause: orly
15:27:50  <Eddi|zuHause> Celestar: he said something like he skips some ticks for everything except vehicle movement
15:27:57  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: it shouldn't be called "daylength patch", it should be called "ticklength patch"
15:28:04  <SpComb>
15:29:10  <Rubidium> because he runs a tick N times, not 74*N ticks in a day
15:29:12  <Eddi|zuHause> i expect some weird inconsistencies with tick counters
15:30:08  <Rubidium> and his programming seems to kinda suck
15:30:38  <SpComb> +/* Amount of game ticks "skipped" */
15:30:38  <SpComb> +VARDEF uint8 _tick_skip_counter;
15:31:25  <Eddi|zuHause> i haven't dared to look at the actual patch
15:31:29  <Rubidium> that's rather the amount of times it has run this particular _tick_counter tick
15:32:40  <Eddi|zuHause> if he repeats the same tick over and over again, how does he handle v->tick_counter?
15:33:19  <Eddi|zuHause> which is probably newgrf-readable
15:33:38  <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause: it's simple: do some things every tick (without increasing the tick counter), and then do the rest every N ticks (and increase the tick counter)
15:34:35  <SpComb> which is an interesting alternative concept
15:35:25  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, it looks like it avoids most of the other daylength pitfalls, but it might open others that have not been considered properly
15:38:12  <Wolf01> does somebody have practice with "for /f (tokens=..)" for batch scripts?
15:38:38  <FauxFaux> REAL QUESTION
15:40:38  <Wolf01> for /f "tokens=1-3 delims=, " %%j in ("%DB%") do echo Starting Backup of Database: %%j , where DB contains the database names in CSV format
15:41:12  <Wolf01> I can only echo the first one
15:41:26  <Wolf01> it should cycle all the three ones
15:42:23  <Wolf01> to echo all the three ones I should use %%j %%k and %%l, but if I need to do that, I don't need to put the names on a variable
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15:44:16  <FauxFaux> You mean %DB% contains "a,b,c"?  delims= isn't what you want, that's for columns, not lines.
15:44:18  <Celestar> I'm not sure that is a great idea tbh Eddi|zuHause
15:45:11  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20183 /trunk/src/ (6 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: make _do_autosave and _dedicated_forks not use VARDEF and put them in a more logical location
15:45:42  <Celestar> oy fewer vardefs :D
15:46:11  <Wolf01> FauxFaux, so what you suggest?
15:46:27  <FauxFaux> I don't think you can do that with for, which is retarded.  Not doing it with cmd? :)
15:46:35  <Rubidium> Celestar: yeah... one of the many unfinished projects
15:46:43  <Celestar> going home
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15:51:19  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20184 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: make _trees_tick_ctr and _disaster_delay not use VARDEF and put them in a more logical location
15:53:56  <Eddi|zuHause> when was the last time someone cleaned up VARDEFs?
15:54:34  <Rubidium> check the logs
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15:56:49  <SpComb> Wolf01: install cygwin and write a .sh script
15:56:59  <SpComb> Wolf01: it's the only sensible thing to do
15:57:03  <Wolf01> I was thinking about it
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16:05:57  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20185 /trunk/src/ (gfx.cpp openttd.cpp variables.h): -Codechange: reduce the scope of _palette_animation_counter
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16:19:48  <peter1138> hmm
16:19:57  <peter1138> still stuck on this list thign :(
16:20:09  <peter1138> my brain no worky
16:20:19  <Rubidium> my code no worky either?
16:20:31  <Rubidium> or haven't you looked at it?
16:20:38  <peter1138> didn't try it, because i saw that it rebuilt the first list
16:20:53  <Eddi|zuHause> it's a really simple algorithm:
16:20:56  <peter1138> and figured... why don't i just rebuild the list instead of removing it
16:21:06  <Eddi|zuHause> sort(b)
16:21:11  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, perhaps, but it may have been a solution to the wrong problem
16:21:11  <Eddi|zuHause> for each entry in a:
16:21:18  <Eddi|zuHause>  if entry in b: remove from a
16:21:38  <peter1138> refer back to the age old "what is your actual problem" question :)
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16:22:01  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20186 /trunk/src/ (6 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: remove VARDEF from _realtime_tick and _rightclick_emulate
16:22:06  <Eddi|zuHause> so, what is your actual problem?
16:22:40  <peter1138> back to basics, i have a large array of blocks, some of which may need to be processed
16:22:55  <peter1138> there's a flag in each block that says if this is so
16:23:46  <peter1138> however, there could be 100+ million blocks, and to iterate over that may take a while
16:23:57  <peter1138> although i admit, i didn't actually test :s
16:24:15  <peter1138> so i made a list of indices to blocks which need processing
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16:25:04  <peter1138> during this processing, this 'process' flag may change for active or inactive blocks
16:25:27  <peter1138> it needs to take effect for the next procesing cycle
16:25:41  <peter1138> so i built another list of what to remove
16:25:46  <peter1138> and then got lost :D
16:27:34  <Rubidium> and conceptually one level higher: of $BIG_ARRAY some need processing, but another process can change the "needs processing" state? So it needs to account what still to process and what not to process anymore?
16:27:49  <Eddi|zuHause> so... during each processing round you get a list of updates, and you want to keep your index current according to these updates?
16:28:14  <Eddi|zuHause> without rebuilding the index every time?
16:28:36  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe you should use SQL ;)
16:29:06  <peter1138> ideally i need it to proccess in ... 100ms or so
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16:29:34  <FauxFaux> If only people spent a lot of money making databases as fast as possible.
16:29:42  <peter1138> shocking isn't it
16:29:43  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't see a problem to sort a list of indices in 100ms
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16:38:16  <Eddi|zuHause> so... what is the actual problem now? :p
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16:47:14  <Ammler> what about water ways, something like a buoy on every tile, just easier to lay and create orders
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16:49:45  <Belugas> shame on you PeterT, you almost made me write "it's not realistic" :P
16:50:03  <PeterT> :D
16:50:25  <Ammler> hmm,something worthy to mention from the changelog of 1.0.3?
16:50:50  <frosch123> desyncs?
16:53:15  <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: the point of ships was that you don't have to create infrastructure first...
16:53:54  <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: was an idea for the pathfinder
16:54:00  <Ammler> doesn't need to cost something
16:55:02  <Ammler> a lot buoys looks ugly
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17:00:41  <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: more like: cache the path between two buoys somehow
17:01:08  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20187 /trunk/src/ (8 files): -Codechange: move _tileh_to_sprite into a function in a more logical place and with a more descriptive name
17:01:33  <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: might be not that easy to implement for MP
17:02:26  <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: the cache would be reset on each landscaping command (clear tile, flood, etc.)
17:03:19  <Rubidium> which in MP happens quite often, so the cache would not be that useful
17:03:21  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: that would be my approach at removal:
17:03:57  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: but it should not happen every tick...
17:04:12  <Rubidium> but ship pathfinding doesn't happen every tick either
17:04:25  <Rubidium> especially with the lame PF
17:05:43  <Eddi|zuHause> you could use a voronoi partition of the map, to find out which buoys are adjacent. then automatically route ships through adjacent buoys, even if they don't have them in their order
17:06:16  <Eddi|zuHause> then you only need to recalculate adjacent buoys on landscaping
17:06:52  <Eddi|zuHause> but that might not be optimal for rivers...
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17:07:50  <Eddi|zuHause> i believe it would be best if the ship pathfinder could switch between a "river mode" [like road/rail vehicles] and an "open sea mode" [like original ship pathfinder]
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17:10:39  <Rubidium> problem is that with the "open sea mode" you might not find the rivers
17:11:22  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20188 /trunk/src/ (6 files): -Codechange: unVARDEF the _[config|log|highscore]_file variables and move them to a more logical location
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17:14:08  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20189 /trunk/src/ (gui.h transparency.h transparency_gui.cpp variables.h): -Codechange: unVARDEF _display_opt and move it to a more logical location
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17:17:49  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20190 /trunk/src/ (9 files): -Codechange: unVARDEF _generate_world and move it to genworld
17:24:45  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20191 /trunk/src/ (7 files): -Codechange: unVARDEF _tick_counter and move it to a more logical location
17:28:40  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20192 /trunk/ (53 files in 10 dirs): -Cleanup: bye bye variables.h, bye bye VARDEF... you won't be missed :)
17:28:45  <glx> oh it's finally gone
17:29:22  <SpComb> what's this conspiracy theory about devs intentially breaking patches
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17:29:40  <glx> there's no conspiracy
17:29:55  <glx> we just improve our code
17:29:59  <Rubidium> no, it's noticing something isn't done yet, noticing you've got some spare time and finally finishing it!
17:30:32  <Terkhen> :)
17:31:14  <glx> btw sane patches don't need variables.h
17:31:16  <Rubidium> and the patch still applies :)
17:31:58  <Rubidium> and if they read the comment: "file that will cease to exist some time in the future"
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17:34:00  <glx> comments must be read ?
17:34:21  <Rubidium> no, but it removes the "I couldn't know that" argument from their side
17:34:30  <Rubidium> or at least invalidates it
17:34:36  <frosch123> hmm, so we need to adapt the functions.h comment
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17:34:48  <glx> hehe
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17:37:01  <Rubidium> frosch123: feel free to do so
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17:45:36  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: translators * r20193 /trunk/src/lang/ (7 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
17:45:36  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:36  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: chuvash - 15 changes by mefisteron
17:45:36  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: indonesian - 9 changes by prof
17:45:36  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: korean - 6 changes by junho2813
17:45:37  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: norwegian_bokmal - 15 changes by CyberKenny
17:45:37  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: portuguese - 58 changes by SupSuper
17:47:06  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20194 /trunk/src/ (dedicated.cpp fileio.cpp openttd.cpp): -Fix: compilation with network disabled failed
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18:01:58  <andythenorth> what's wrong with the current ship pathfinder other than performance?
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18:04:24  <Rubidium> the original (read: LAME) ship PF is, kinda lame
18:04:56  <andythenorth> hmmm
18:05:05  <andythenorth> it's slow as a box of dead dogs
18:05:45  <andythenorth> and sometimes my ships get stuck in a bay or harbour because they can't find a route past a strip of land
18:05:52  <andythenorth> (even with bouys)
18:05:54  <Rubidium> as it's very likely that ships don't find their router with it
18:06:08  <Rubidium> andythenorth: exactly... you're using the LAME ship pathfinder
18:06:17  <andythenorth> yup, sometimes my ships lose their routes when reloading a savegame
18:06:20  <Rubidium> the good one is EXTREMELY slow in some cases
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18:10:54  <andythenorth> also....hi :)
18:12:05  <andythenorth> anything cooking ?
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18:17:12  <Eddi|zuHause> if you count the explosion of variables.h?
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18:42:31  <iri> I'm using the ECS set, but I don't get any vehicles for the additional industries
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18:42:41  <iri> Is there something you need to do to get them?
18:42:56  <Ammler> check the ECS wiki
18:43:02  <iri> I did, and I don't understand
18:43:16  <iri> I don't see anything saying that you need to do anything to get the additional vehicles
18:43:39  <Ammler>
18:43:59  <iri> ah
18:44:10  <iri> I need the newcargoes ones?
18:44:56  <Ammler> or you use a newgrf
18:45:03  <Vadtec> on the detailed performance rating dialog, what is used to calculate the Min profit and max income stats?
18:45:17  <Ammler> as you won't have graphics with default vehicels
18:45:20  <iri> Uh, I was referring to the newgrf?
18:45:35  <iri> What did you think I was referring to, out of interest?
18:45:50  <Ammler> old waggons - new cargoes
18:46:01  <iri> Is that an option or something?
18:46:04  <Ammler> it is a newgrf, but does change the default vehicles
18:46:51  <iri> Okay, so which sets should I use?
18:46:55  <Ammler> I would recommend using vehicle sets
18:47:08  <Ammler> one per category listed there
18:47:16  <frosch123> Vadtec: yearly income of a vehicle older than 2 years
18:47:19  <iri> ah. So, 2cc and "Long vehicles" ?
18:47:23  <iri> (for example)
18:47:31  <Ammler> yep
18:47:38  <iri> Cool. Thanks for the help :-)
18:47:53  <Vadtec> frosch123: thanks, couldnt find where/how that was being calculated in the wiki
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18:47:57  <frosch123> Vadtec: maybe there are some hints if you rightclick the lines (like every else)
18:48:24  <Ammler> best ECS graphics support might have nars and UKRS
18:48:31  <Vadtec> frosch123: sadly, the right button on this mouse is whack, im getting a new mouse today
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18:48:52  <frosch123> better than the left :)
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18:48:58  <Vadtec> indeed that
18:49:15  <frosch123> Terkhen: ^^ another advantage of hoovering :p
18:49:24  <Alberth> :p
18:49:45  <Vadtec> heh, yeah
18:51:20  <Vadtec> thanks for the info, that explains why my rating keeps fluctuating so much
18:52:06  <Vadtec> is there a way to get rid of AI players that have gone into the negative cash flow without buying them out and paying off their debt?
18:52:31  <Vadtec> this current game has 4 of them, id like some fresh blood to come in
18:52:32  * andythenorth ponders the advantages of hovering
18:52:51  <frosch123> Vadtec: open console and enter "stop_ai <company number>"
18:52:59  <frosch123> kills them instantious
18:53:16  <Alberth> or increase the #allowed AIs :)
18:53:26  <Vadtec> frosch123: and that wont be counted as a cheat correct?
18:53:48  <frosch123> you have to decide for yourself about cheating
18:53:58  <Vadtec> nah, i dont want to on this game
18:54:05  <Vadtec> i just want some new AI players to come in
18:54:40  <frosch123> than do as albert says :)
18:54:54  <Vadtec> ok
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18:58:53  <iri> Is it possible to make openttd use a custom resolution?
18:59:03  <Nite> Hi!
18:59:10  <Alberth> hi
18:59:10  <Nite> you mean fullscreen?
18:59:10  <iri> 1280x720, for instance?
18:59:14  <iri> Yeah.
19:00:09  <Nite> as i understand ottd is always the same resolution, the larger the window (or screen) the more you see
19:00:31  <iri> Yeah, just it is too small on my high-res monitor
19:00:36  <iri> so I just want to make it bigger and more readable
19:00:49  <iri> but it seems to be missing an intermediate widescreen resolution
19:00:53  <frosch123> you can configure fontsize in openttd.cfg
19:01:03  <iri> Oh, you can? Cool.
19:01:07  <frosch123> but icons will keep their size
19:01:16  <Nite> rly! cool
19:02:42  <frosch123> open openttd.cfg, fill in small_font, normal_font, ... (e.g. "Creepy"), and small_size, ...
19:03:04  <iri> Is there a comment character for openttd.cfg?
19:03:27  <Nite> ... as i noticed for most of us "shared orders" are used almost naturally and always ... so its sad that most neebs dont use them ...
19:04:56  * andythenorth ponders
19:05:23  <andythenorth> assuming no roadtypes for a while, is there any hack to allow tram tracks without catenary?
19:05:27  <iri> Any good recommendations for what to use for the fonts, frosch123?
19:05:40  <frosch123> no :)
19:05:43  <Nite> is there a more ottd gameplay related irc channel ?
19:05:46  <iri> Just setting the size didn't seem to work :(
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19:06:09  <frosch123> i use arial as it is the only font which i can spell safely
19:06:41  <frosch123> oh, i have seen someone using comic sans, but imo that is ugly
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19:07:10  <iri> Any idea what the default font is? I would rather not change it, just make it bigger
19:07:27  <frosch123> the default font is a not-scalable spritefont
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19:07:37  <iri> Although arial doesn't look half bad actuall
19:07:55  <iri> Though it could do with being bold in some places
19:09:09  <iri> Oh, I just hadn't made it big enough.
19:09:15  <iri> Finally found a reasonable set of options I think
19:09:30  <iri> Now I can read it without straining my eyes :D
19:09:45  <Wolf01> frosch123, try webdings if you come from mars you might be able to read it...
19:09:50  <frosch123> but there is less text on the screen :p
19:10:35  <Alberth> it better matches the old situation of 640x480 :p
19:10:48  <frosch123> Wolf01: boring. use arabic or hebrew instead. buttons changing their place is harder than unreadable text
19:11:04  <iri> Buttons change place?
19:11:07  <Wolf01> I might test it with tengwar
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19:11:25  <Wolf01> iri, rtl :)
19:11:34  <iri> argh, I see what you mean.
19:11:37  <iri> O_O
19:11:58  <frosch123> now find the box to switch back :p
19:12:08  <iri> Yup, that's my current activity..
19:12:30  <Wolf01> ahahah, edit the cfg, you'll take less time
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19:12:44  <iri> Found it :P
19:12:53  <Nite> suggesting a magnifier ;)
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19:14:34  <Wolf01> Sacro suggested me once to move my head nearest to the screen
19:14:53  <Sacro> it's a good answer
19:18:18  <Belugas> The beautiful People - Marylin Manson
19:18:22  <Belugas> ROCK N ROLL!!!
19:20:57  <Terkhen> frosch123: broken mice / systems without right click?
19:21:12  <frosch123> :)
19:21:54  <frosch123> if the mouse is so broken that hoovering does not work,  it is unlikely that they manage to complain about that
19:22:00  <Terkhen> :P
19:22:20  <Vadtec> hmmm, is there a way to transfer cargo from one car to another? i needed to sell one car from a train, but it had cargo that could have fit on another car in it
19:22:34  <Belugas> nope
19:22:43  <Vadtec> that seems silly
19:22:43  <Belugas> drop at station, pick atstation
19:22:57  <Terkhen> I hope that everyone is happy after r20145... at least while (if) RMB does not get more uses
19:23:32  <Alberth> and after dropping mac, everybody has such a button :p
19:23:53  * andythenorth drops openttd
19:24:02  <andythenorth> *thud*
19:24:20  <Alberth> doesn't matter, it is drop-proof :p
19:24:32  <frosch123> does mac still only have one button?
19:24:38  <andythenorth> mine has no button
19:24:39  <Terkhen> unless you drop it into mingw
19:24:55  <Forked> it's not very realistic loading from one cart to another without temporarely (sp?) storing it at a station or similar. :-)
19:25:00  * Forked hides
19:25:10  <Alberth> nothing is mingw-proof, except possibly mingw itself :)
19:25:18  <frosch123> hmm, maybe belugas adds a feature
19:26:07  <Wolf01> now I only need a steampunk-hobbit-nanic like grf set and I'm happy :D
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19:26:42  * andythenorth wonders about a steam punk set
19:27:01  <andythenorth> or we could convert toyland to a mad-max style thing :P
19:27:36  <Wolf01> that's dieselpunk
19:27:53  <Belugas> frosch123 :  ok, i'll work on it
19:28:01  <Belugas> buwahahahah!!!
19:28:27  <Terkhen> mad-max would only need scrap metal, food and water chains
19:28:42  <Terkhen> scrap metal -> stuff
19:28:43  <Wolf01> and pig-gas farms
19:28:45  <Belugas> and.. fuel...
19:28:50  <Terkhen> true :P
19:30:04  <Wolf01> number of cities set to low, very flat landscape, no water at all... and a thunderdome accepting tourists
19:34:34  <andythenorth> and no trains
19:34:36  <andythenorth> :P
19:34:49  <Alberth> and no airplanes :)
19:34:59  <andythenorth> there is a plane of sorts
19:34:59  <Wolf01> except crashed ones
19:35:21  <andythenorth>
19:36:33  <andythenorth> original mad max is quite different to the sequels
19:37:35  <andythenorth> ooh
19:37:44  <andythenorth> there is a train in mm3
19:44:16  <Wolf01>
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19:56:14  <andythenorth> can we have newgrf disasters?
19:56:38  <andythenorth> hmm
19:56:51  * andythenorth forgot there was already a refinery explosion
19:56:52  <Alberth> a disk crash :p
19:57:01  <ccfreak2k> A horrible graphics set./
19:57:05  <andythenorth> mad max newgrf looks plausible
19:57:12  <ccfreak2k> With all of the properties with awful values.
19:57:16  <ccfreak2k> Would that be a newgrf disaster?
19:57:39  <andythenorth> ccfreak2k: sounds like my idea to just randomise all vehicle properties every time a new one is bought
19:58:15  * andythenorth ponders a little
19:58:26  <ccfreak2k> andythenorth, do that and let trains run over other trains.
19:58:31  <ccfreak2k> Only the fastest wagons will survive.
19:58:39  <Wolf01> nice thought
19:58:52  * andythenorth stops fooling around and codes a hi-rail tractor :P
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20:12:44  <__ln__> is CreateThread() 'cheap' in win32?
20:14:43  <SmatZ> TrueBrain: I have updated the "how OpenTTD bloats" graph ;)
20:15:33  <TrueBrain> kewl :D
20:15:46  <PeterT> SmatZ: what happened around r15000?
20:16:11  <__ln__> @commit 15000
20:16:12  <DorpsGek> __ln__: Commit by truebrain :: r15000 /branches/noai/src (ai/ai.hpp saveload/ai_sl.cpp) (2009-01-12 10:47:53 UTC)
20:16:13  <DorpsGek> __ln__: [NoAI] -Fix (r14984): forgot to rename @file too
20:16:40  <SmatZ> PeterT: NoAI merge
20:16:40  <__ln__> (just to see when was it approximately)
20:16:51  <SmatZ> @commit 15027
20:16:51  <DorpsGek> SmatZ: Commit by truebrain :: r15027 /trunk (309 files in 30 dirs) (2009-01-12 17:11:45 UTC)
20:16:52  <DorpsGek> SmatZ: -Merge: tomatos and bananas left to be, here is NoAI for all to see.
20:16:53  <DorpsGek> SmatZ:   NoAI is an API (a framework) to build your own AIs in. See:
20:16:54  <DorpsGek> SmatZ:
20:16:55  <DorpsGek> SmatZ:  With many thanks to:
20:16:56  <DorpsGek> SmatZ: (...)
20:16:56  <PeterT> SmatZ: ah
20:17:26  <SmatZ> the growth between r15700-16300 is "new GUI"
20:17:48  <PeterT> I thought the new gui was supposed to optimize proformence
20:18:02  <PeterT> *performance
20:18:04  <glx> no it was to simplify our work
20:18:07  <SmatZ> :)
20:18:11  <PeterT> ah
20:18:27  <SmatZ> from user perspective, windows auto-resize when you change font size
20:18:32  <SmatZ> and stuff :)
20:19:14  <SmatZ> C++'s OOP solution is hardly ever smaller and faster than pure C solution
20:19:34  <SmatZ> depends on coder of course ;)
20:20:15  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, if you happen to be KUDr :p
20:21:20  <SmatZ> I have never managed to understand the YAPF code :)
20:21:31  <glx> I never tried to ;)
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20:21:49  <SmatZ> :)
20:22:13  <Eddi|zuHause> besides, the graph shows compile time, not runtime performance...
20:22:32  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: well, maybe you compile more than you play
20:22:54  <SmatZ> hehe :)
20:23:18  <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause: I would need a savegame to test with :)
20:23:19  <Eddi|zuHause> that's definitely not true... i spend around 95% of the time on pause, 3% playing and 2% waiting to compile
20:23:24  <SmatZ> :)
20:23:26  <frosch123> anyway, since r10000 binary size and compile time double, while codesize did not
20:23:46  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, C++ takes longer to compile than C
20:23:59  <frosch123> no, it takes less to write :p
20:24:00  <Eddi|zuHause> has more complicated features
20:24:32  <SmatZ> more than doubled, even more than tripled :)
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20:25:26  <SmatZ> compile time, that is
20:25:50  <SmatZ> I should test compile time with different gcc versions
20:26:32  <Eddi|zuHause> there is no code size before r8000, so comparing the C-writing-speed with the C++-writing speed is difficult
20:27:22  <Eddi|zuHause> plus, that speed also depends on the number of active developers
20:27:44  <SmatZ> yeah, maybe it would be better to use date instead of revision numbers
20:27:54  <SmatZ> or date progress / number of developers...
20:27:59  <SmatZ> or number of lines changed...
20:27:59  <Eddi|zuHause> and if you write more than 10 lines per hour, you're probably doing something wrong...
20:28:06  <SmatZ> hehe :)
20:28:18  <Wolf01> do 6D graphics
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20:45:32  * andythenorth can't decid
20:45:33  <andythenorth> e
20:46:45  * andythenorth decides
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20:51:15  <Eddi|zuHause> if you can't decide, use cidre...
20:52:06  <Wolf01> a 4 faced dice is better
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20:52:38  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: terkhen * r20195 /trunk/src/town_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#3891]: Remove autofocus of the edit box in the found town window (Zuu).
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20:54:33  <Eddi|zuHause> four? real people use TWENTY!
20:54:51  <Zuu> Nice Terkhen :-)
20:54:56  <Rubidium> one with an infinite number of sides!
20:55:25  <Wolf01> a sphere
20:56:14  <Eddi|zuHause> i guess there's nothing useful between twenty and infinity...
20:56:46  <Rubidium> well... if you've got 2 choices, then you still got an infinite amount of sides with "throw again"
20:56:50  <Eddi|zuHause> although getting a physical object in the shape of an infinitely-sided "fair" dice is probably difficult...
20:57:25  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: terkhen * r20196 /trunk/src/genworld_gui.cpp: -Fix: Remove autofocus of the edit box in the world generation window.
20:57:37  <Terkhen> Zuu: thank you for the patch :)
20:58:09  <__ln__> whaaat, thanking for a patch is not part of the protocol
20:58:25  <Zuu> You should thank SmatZ for teling me about the problem at the r20k party. :-)
20:58:41  <SmatZ> you did the fix though ;)
20:59:02  <SmatZ> now... what is the status of the signlist filter patch, Zuu?
20:59:03  <Zuu> True, but I knew what to change.
20:59:29  <Eddi|zuHause> SmatZ: btw. the lower scale is difficult to read once it gets to 5-digit numbers
20:59:33  <Zuu> I need to upload a new version that is compatible with hotkeys.
21:00:11  <Zuu> Ammler did a update for hotkeys but I haven't more than just brifely read through it. He didn't provide all the steps so that I will need to do.
21:00:30  <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause: true :( people complain about the image beeing too big (wide) though
21:00:31  <Belugas> bad Ammler
21:00:34  <Belugas> badbadbad
21:00:39  <SmatZ> maybe it could print revision numbers less often
21:00:50  <Ammler> hehe, Zuu, you said you are already working on the update
21:00:51  <SmatZ> hmm how to make graphviz do that...
21:01:01  <SmatZ> :-)
21:01:05  <Ammler> else I could have uploaded the splitted patch
21:01:19  <Zuu> I'm currently in the process of moving out of my dormitory so I don't have time at the moment to finnish it up.
21:01:30  <Zuu> You will have to wait about 2-3 weeks for it.
21:01:44  <Ammler> my patch just converted the ctrl-l hotkey to the new system
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21:01:56  <Celestar> fons
21:01:59  <Celestar> hm..
21:02:00  <Celestar> not there.
21:02:13  <Zuu> I think the other key shortucts should probably also be added to the hotkey system.
21:02:15  <Eddi|zuHause> @seen fonsinchen
21:02:15  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: fonsinchen was last seen in #openttd 2 days, 7 hours, 34 minutes, and 40 seconds ago: <fonsinchen> maybe it's enough to make that available in the config file for now.
21:02:17  <__ln__> hello sir Celestar
21:02:40  <Zuu> configurable hotkey system*
21:02:40  <Ammler> Zuu: f still works :-)
21:02:49  <Zuu> But it is not configurable
21:02:55  <Ammler> no
21:03:01  <Ammler> that didn't conflict on update
21:03:02  <Zuu> Neither is arrow up/down.
21:03:27  <Zuu> Or page up/down, ctrl + home/end.
21:03:32  <Celestar> anyone with cargodist experience might help me. Got a trunk line A>B>C. I have some express trains A-C and some that stop at the (small station) B. now the link A-C is underutilized while A-C via B is totally crowded. what am I missing there?
21:03:47  <Ammler> then it might not be worth, if I post the splitted version
21:04:01  <SmatZ> Zuu: you reminded me of :)
21:04:02  <Zuu> I will not make return and escape configurable as those use return values from the edit box handler and not actual key codes.
21:04:07  <SmatZ> good evening Celestar
21:04:09  <Ammler> the splitted thing is just for review I assume
21:04:16  <Ammler> users like the complete anyway
21:04:43  <Ammler> and nobody wants to review my patches :-)
21:04:51  <Celestar> yo ammler
21:04:56  <Zuu> SmatZ: ^^
21:05:01  <SmatZ> ):
21:05:02  <Belugas> so.. finished debit and visa.... should I start MC now?
21:05:13  <SmatZ> Belugas: of course :p
21:05:14  <Ammler> Heya Celestar
21:05:33  <Rubidium> Belugas: no, you should start "commute" :)
21:05:55  <Celestar> does newgrf theoretically support 32bpp?
21:06:01  <Eddi|zuHause> Celestar: i have heard several similar complaints that lines are underoccupied while others are crowded. never found a reliable cause for it, though
21:06:08  <Zuu> Ammler: The split is mostly for review yes, and if they want to make two commits, so we can get the next party a sooner than later ;-)
21:06:18  <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: what would be an .. unreliable cause?
21:06:32  <Rubidium> Celestar: you mean whether NewGRFs can have 32 bits graphics as well with stable OpenTTD? If so: yes
21:06:32  <Belugas> Rubidium has a point
21:06:36  <Eddi|zuHause> Celestar: probably to do with a backlog of people who desperately want that one route, while the ones that want the other route are stuck elsewhere...
21:07:04  <Celestar> Rubidium: yep that's what I meant.
21:07:14  <Celestar> hm. girlfriend aggro, bbl
21:07:35  <Ammler> Zuu: diff of patch:
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21:07:41  <Eddi|zuHause> Celestar: so the distribution algorithm may have adapted to the "relief" line, but the passengers en-route didn't.
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21:07:58  <Eddi|zuHause> damn girlfriends!
21:08:32  <Ammler> (from your 20009 version to mine)
21:08:34  <Zuu> Ammler: Looks good
21:08:39  <Zuu> Thanks
21:08:46  <SmatZ> cargod*st patch would need some "skip-order-if-less-than XXX cargo wants to go that line" conditional order
21:08:54  <SmatZ> does any of them support that?
21:09:25  <Zuu> If you and SmatZ decide to commit that before I get a chance to sit down and produce a splited version, I won't object that. ;-)
21:09:49  <Eddi|zuHause> SmatZ: if you mean "has anyone ever implemented that", probably no.
21:09:57  <SmatZ> I think Terkhen is taking over that patch :)
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21:10:44  <Terkhen> huh? which patch?
21:10:48  <Eddi|zuHause> SmatZ: i'm also not sure if it's reliably implementable. as cargo only knows the "next hop", which is the same for all cargo being loaded, and "final target", which may be extremely scattered
21:10:59  <Ammler> StatinBuildGUI is also still a nice patch to review for you :-P
21:11:38  <Zuu> How many years ago was WWOTTGD2? 2 or 3?
21:11:45  <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause: true
21:11:49  <Ammler> 2 was last
21:11:54  <Ammler> 2 year ago?
21:11:59  <Ammler> s
21:12:35  <Ammler> the wiki should tell it
21:12:41  <Zuu> Ok, then The filter sign list patch becomes two years old now :-)
21:12:57  <Ammler> we once planned to make wwottdgd3 with celestar, but then he left ;-)
21:13:26  <Eddi|zuHause> he tends to do that, yes :)
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21:15:07  <Ammler> already a year ago, we planned no. 3 with region based newgrfs
21:15:40  <SmatZ> Ammler: did Yexo have a working patch?
21:15:43  <SmatZ> @seen Yexo
21:15:43  <DorpsGek> SmatZ: Yexo was last seen in #openttd 2 weeks, 0 days, 21 hours, 43 minutes, and 4 seconds ago: <Yexo> and the differences are especially noteable for higher speeds
21:15:52  <Ammler> SmatZ: there is a hg branch
21:16:07  <SmatZ> good :)
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21:16:40  <Ammler>
21:17:06  <Ammler> for house sets only, iirc
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21:17:40  <SmatZ> I think that's very appropriate
21:17:59  <Belugas> commuter should it be :)
21:18:04  <Belugas> night all!
21:18:21  <Terkhen> I think that my bouncer lost some lines... but you probably meant filter sign list, right? I want to review the code but I never get myself to actually do it
21:18:22  <SmatZ> good bye, Belugas
21:18:27  <Terkhen> night Belugas
21:18:38  <Pikka> get out, Belugas!
21:18:45  <Belugas> good night sweeties :)
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21:18:51  * Belugas is got out
21:18:58  <Pikka> :)
21:19:04  <Terkhen> I'll do it in my next "openttd break"
21:20:24  <Ammler> night Belugas
21:22:24  <Wolf01> 'night all
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21:23:56  <Vadtec> will the autoreplace feature not work if you have refitted a car to another type of cargo?
21:24:37  <SmatZ> Vadtec: it will autoreplace and autorefit :)
21:24:51  <SmatZ> I am not sure what happens if it fails to refit
21:24:58  <Vadtec> does it prioritise trains over cars?
21:25:11  <Vadtec> i have some cars i want to refit, but i also have some trains i want to refit
21:25:13  <SmatZ> how do you mean?
21:25:27  <Ammler> if your money limit is low?
21:25:37  <SmatZ> autoreplace rules are set for both engines and cars
21:25:42  <Vadtec> i have the money to replace the cars
21:25:43  <SmatZ> it will replace both engine and car
21:26:02  <Vadtec> but two trains have not replaced their cars
21:26:10  <Vadtec> sec
21:26:17  <Ammler> maybe you need to enable "autoremove wagons"
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21:26:32  <Vadtec> ok, im using the NARS newgrf from Pikka
21:26:40  <Vadtec> im trying to replace Gonolas with Box Cars
21:26:49  <iri> What does "Use only mulitple unit wagons" mean?
21:26:58  <Vadtec> two of my trains are not replacing the cars
21:27:02  <Vadtec> while all the others have
21:27:11  <Ammler> does it have the refit option?
21:27:16  <Pikka> what do the trains carry? perhaps the boxcars can't carry that cargo.
21:27:17  <Vadtec> yes
21:27:26  <Vadtec> and they have been refitted from the default setting
21:27:36  <Vadtec> (goods to coal)
21:28:10  <iri> For some reason when I try to build my passenger train, I can't move carriages on to it
21:28:21  <iri> It gives me that above error
21:28:40  <Vadtec> Pikka: sorry, didnt see you
21:28:48  <Vadtec> they are supposed to be carrying coal
21:28:56  <Pikka> can the boxcars carry coal?
21:29:20  <Vadtec> and that would be the detail i was over looking...
21:29:22  * Vadtec sighs
21:29:22  <Vadtec> afk
21:30:02  <SmatZ> hmm
21:30:25  <SmatZ> I was just telling myself "I am waking up at 4am, I am so happy I don't have to drive"
21:30:34  * andythenorth ponders
21:30:42  <SmatZ> and now friend of mine called me that his car might be unusable tommorow
21:30:45  <SmatZ> so... booh
21:30:48  <andythenorth> how many road-rail vehicles is 'enough'?
21:31:12  <Sacro> 640k
21:31:28  <andythenorth> I'll rephrase my question :P
21:31:40  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: so a new-and-improved vehicle comes out about every 10-15 years
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21:32:17  <iri> Am I missing a newgrf or something?
21:32:24  <iri> Why can't I build a passenger train?
21:32:26  <iri> I'm using 2cc
21:33:08  * andythenorth scraps a road-rail vehicle in HEQS
21:34:40  <glx> iri: maybe wrong wagons
21:34:44  <SmatZ> iri: you are missing a newgrf or something
21:34:45  <Zuu> Terkhen: Yes that patch. In 2-3 weeks I can produce a new 2-step patch that is compatible with the new configurable hotkey system. Before that you have to do with the patches at Flyspray that works up to before the configurable hotkey system was merged. There is also a patch in the forums by Ammeler that has made the Ctrl + L hotkey configurable and applies to current trunk.
21:34:48  <SmatZ> I would say :)
21:35:04  <Eddi|zuHause> iri: i'd say you have a layer 8 problem
21:35:13  <Zuu> Good night
21:35:16  <iri> Ah, I need to enable multiple newgrf engine sets = on
21:35:23  <SmatZ> hehe :)
21:35:24  * andythenorth wonders if it's ok to have a pointless vehicle
21:35:32  <SmatZ> good night, Leif
21:35:44  <iri> Is there any way to enable this setting without starting a new game?
21:35:55  <glx> only if you use more than one trains newgrf
21:35:59  <Eddi|zuHause> not while you have any vehicles
21:36:00  <bryjen> iri: does the "engine" you're using carry passengers itself?  it may not take passenger wagons then.  maybe add more units of the same engine
21:36:08  <Zuu> ah, good you remembered my name :-) (or looked it up at flyspray ;) )
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21:36:19  <iri> bryjen: interesting idea
21:36:45  <SmatZ> iri: it should be quite safe to add a vehicle newgrf when you have "Multiple engine GRF sets" setting enabled
21:38:24  <iri> I can't enable this setting apparently when vehicles exist
21:38:35  <SmatZ> bad :(
21:38:48  <iri> Yeah, so it looks like I am using bryjen's workaround
21:38:57  <SmatZ> it's strange you don't have pax wagons available though
21:39:03  <SmatZ> fine :)
21:39:31  <bryjen> it's not a workaround. that's what multiple unit means.
21:40:22  <iri> Ah. That wasn't clear
21:40:36  <iri> How can I tell if it is a multiple unit vehicle?
21:40:38  <bryjen> train jargon
21:41:09  <iri> How can I tell which openttd trains are just the normal ones?
21:41:44  <iri> Hmm. All engines seem to behave the same
21:44:55  <iri> Also, why is my single carriage train travelling at 130km/h when its max speed is 160km/h?
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21:45:55  <Terkhen> good night
21:46:01  <PeterT> night
21:46:36  <glx> iri: wagon speed limit ?
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21:47:53  <iri> It's a single carriage
21:47:57  <iri> Just the engine..
21:48:24  <Ammler> nutracks?
21:48:32  <iri> nutracks?
21:48:38  <Ammler> then not :-)
21:48:59  <glx> multiple newgrf ?
21:49:16  <iri> No, I don't have that enabled. I am using 2cc and it says that it is designed to be used with it
21:49:36  <glx> only 2cc ?
21:50:02  <iri> I have quite a bit of other stuff, but nothing for train
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21:51:07  <Ammler> no railtype set?
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21:51:14  <iri> railtype?
21:51:26  <Ammler> then also none :-)
21:51:43  <Pikka> andythenorth: why not?
21:51:43  <iri> Hmm.
21:51:51  <bryjen> nu-tracks really needs hyphenation so i can stop reading it as nut-racks ;)
21:52:01  <iri> nutracks, heheh.
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21:52:24  * bryjen is really not 13 years old
21:52:28  <glx> maybe it's just realistic acceleration
21:52:30  <Ammler> bryjen: maybe you should
21:52:31  <Pikka> or they could just learn how to spell newt racks.
21:52:45  <iri> Well, they go faster down hill but then slow down to 130
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21:53:00  <glx> realistic acceleration then
21:53:14  <Pikka> indeed, they apparently lack the power to reach their maximum speed :)
21:54:38  <bryjen> heh. specs by the marketing department. Max Speed (when going downhill)
21:55:43  <Rubidium> as if all vehicles normally run at their maximum speed
21:55:52  <Rubidium> (in the real world that is)
21:57:13  <glx> my car can go faster than it's max speed
21:57:16  <bryjen> true. but less funny ;)
21:57:39  *** Zahl [~Zahl@2a01:198:5c1:0:4189:dba1:93f4:3e3a] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:57:42  <Pikka> most rail locomotives are more than capable of easily reaching their maximum speed with nothing behind them.
21:59:14  <Pikka> this is "maximum speed" defined as "as fast as you would normally go in daily operation", as opposed to "as fast as you can go before something breaks".
22:01:24  * SmatZ is going  to prepare coffee for tommorow...
22:01:31  <SmatZ> and spill the open beer so he can drive :-/
22:02:04  <Rubidium> won't that coffee be stale when you wake up? Or do you like it cold?
22:02:43  <SmatZ> Rubidium: I want to put it in a PET tube :-)
22:03:02  <SmatZ> hot coffee + PET = bad consequences
22:04:01  <Eddi|zuHause> use a thermo-bottle for coffee, like normal people...
22:04:46  <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause: hmm good idea
22:04:53  <SmatZ> I am too czech I guess
22:04:55  <SmatZ> :)
22:05:49  <SmatZ> we are out of regular coffee... how much nescafe should I use for 1 big cup? :-/
22:06:03  * andythenorth bed time
22:06:07  <SmatZ> bye bye andythenorth
22:06:09  <andythenorth> pointless vehicles can get finished tomorrow :P
22:06:50  *** devilsadvocate_ [~devilsadv@] has joined #openttd
22:07:24  <Eddi|zuHause> apparently the correct english term is "vacuum flask"
22:08:15  *** iri [] has left #openttd []
22:08:41  <SmatZ> :p
22:08:44  <Pikka> or colloquially "thermos", Eddi|zuHause
22:08:48  <Pikka> which is a trademark
22:08:53  <SmatZ> I will use the PET tube
22:09:01  <SmatZ> I am used to it
22:10:27  <Eddi|zuHause> i never realised "Thermos" was a brand name
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22:29:04  <ccfreak2k> Eddi|zuHause, it sure is.
22:30:42  <Eddi|zuHause> well, i only ever heard it refered to as "Thermoskanne", which sounds close enough to a real word that i never even asked, and there was no alternate description around like "Tempo" being a "Zellstofftaschentuch"
22:33:30  <Eddi|zuHause> sometimes it's very difficult to identify brand names when they became everyday use
22:33:51  <Eddi|zuHause> it took a long time for me to realise "polylux" was a brand name
22:34:17  <Eddi|zuHause> [that's an overhead projector]
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22:37:55  <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause: few years ago I read "to google" might become a regular verb
22:38:01  <SmatZ> I think it became...
22:38:13  <Eddi|zuHause> it really did...
22:38:19  <SmatZ> and so, google might have lost it's trademark over "google"
22:38:24  <SmatZ> *its
22:38:31  <Eddi|zuHause> it's amazing how fast these things go...
22:38:32  <Rubidium> <- in Dutch it at least is
22:38:41  <SmatZ> :-)
22:38:57  <SmatZ> 500 Servlet Exception
22:38:59  <SmatZ> java.lang.NullPointerException
22:39:01  <Rubidium> <- thinks it's a verb as well
22:39:04  <SmatZ> Rubidium: ^^^ :-)
22:39:10  <Eddi|zuHause> it was in the news a few years ago that it was picked up in the "Duden" [official german reference dictionary]
22:39:26  <Rubidium> SmatZ: oh... super... they don't like non-Dutch people or something?
22:39:37  <SmatZ> Rubidium: well, it's java...
22:40:07  <Rubidium> SmatZ: but... it works for me
22:40:17  <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause: isn't "duden" a "nasty" word in german?
22:40:28  <SmatZ> Rubidium: it works after two reloads :)
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22:40:54  <Eddi|zuHause> SmatZ: not that i know of... maybe you mix it up with something similar... but i don't know what you mean
22:41:36  <SmatZ>
22:41:51  <Eddi|zuHause> it's named after Konrad Duden, a teacher of the late 19th century, who first organised a "unified" german spelling
22:42:12  <SmatZ> I thought it's german for "boobs"
22:42:18  <SmatZ> or rather "big boobs"
22:42:43  <Eddi|zuHause> no... that is Titten ;)
22:43:29  <SmatZ> ok :)
22:43:49  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, Duden was a teacher in a school where pupils from seven different dialects merged
22:44:10  <SmatZ> :)
22:44:22  <Eddi|zuHause> so he thought after germany's unification (in 1871), also the language should be unified
22:44:46  <glx> (the first unification ;) )
22:45:02  <Eddi|zuHause> well, the other one is the reunification ;)
22:45:31  <Eddi|zuHause> (in 1990)
22:46:05  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, he published the first version of his dictionary around 1880, and in 1901 it became the offical spelling (by law), based on his work
22:47:41  <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause: there were differences in dialect of people from the western and eastern germany? I mean, in places that had the same dialect 50 years ago
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22:48:28  <Eddi|zuHause> SmatZ: in 1990, there were two different "Duden"-Dictionaries, one in east-germany and one in west-germany, they had a few differences.
22:48:44  <Eddi|zuHause> but the dialect-spectrum in germany is mostly north-south
22:50:06  <Eddi|zuHause> which basically only diminished due to TV broadcasts...
22:52:05  <SmatZ> you live quite near to the borders - could you receive the western TV?
22:52:45  <Eddi|zuHause> the west-german TV channels had around 100km range, i believe
22:53:15  <Eddi|zuHause> so you had a circle around berlin, and a stripe along the border who could receive west-german TV quite well
22:53:30  <Eddi|zuHause> the only ones not able to receive it were in an area around dresden
22:53:48  <Eddi|zuHause> it was known as the "Tal der Ahnungslosen" [valley of the clueless]
22:54:02  <SmatZ> :)
22:54:35  <Eddi|zuHause> we did have western TV
22:54:35  <SmatZ> we had several TV signal "disrupters"
22:54:45  <SmatZ> so we had problems receiving western signal
22:54:59  <Eddi|zuHause> although as far as i remember, that came through the official cable network
22:55:11  <SmatZ> (they weren't relly disrupters, just transmitters at near frequency with high output wattage)
22:55:15  <Eddi|zuHause> western TV was never officially forbidden
22:55:35  <Eddi|zuHause> just "frowned upon"
22:55:44  <SmatZ> we didn't have cable TV till the '90s
22:55:56  <glx> I still don't have cable TV
22:56:04  <SmatZ> neither do I :)
22:56:14  <Eddi|zuHause> we now have satellite TV ;)
22:56:15  <SmatZ> but it wasn't available anywhere
22:56:18  <glx> but I have ADSL TV
22:56:21  <SmatZ> :)
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22:57:04  <Eddi|zuHause> we lived in flats in the city as long as i remember...
22:57:31  <Eddi|zuHause> they were fairly new when we moved in, and i think they were built with cable
22:57:40  <glx> and before the end of the year I'll need to buy a DVB adapter
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23:02:26  <SmatZ> I have to have to already
23:02:36  <SmatZ> we were quite fast with the digitalisation process
23:02:36  <Mazur> Sleep well.
23:02:42  <SmatZ> bey bye Mazur
23:02:44  <SmatZ> hello zachanima
23:02:58  * Mazur is not going any where.
23:03:14  <SmatZ> @seen zachanima
23:03:14  <DorpsGek> SmatZ: zachanima was last seen in #openttd 1 week, 2 days, 2 hours, 50 minutes, and 46 seconds ago: <zachanima> but I still don't talk much, no
23:03:47  <Mazur> I remember a time we had to convince my dad to buy a TV in the 60's.
23:04:22  <SmatZ> :)
23:04:22  <Eddi|zuHause> he's also marked as away for 5 days 10 hours...
23:04:32  <SmatZ> true :)
23:04:42  <SmatZ> wasn't he at the r20k party?
23:04:47  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, he was
23:04:55  <SmatZ> :-)
23:04:55  <VVG> hey
23:05:01  <Mazur> Vivi!
23:05:04  <SmatZ> the guy with the PI-shirt :)
23:05:17  <Eddi|zuHause> was like a very spontaneous thing decided one day before, or so...
23:05:19  <VVG> i just got a crash using 20146 during map generation, but i can't reproduce it
23:05:34  <VVG> crash log says it got something to do with newgrf_commons.cpp
23:05:40  <SmatZ> :-(
23:05:48  <SmatZ> VVG: windows?
23:05:51  <VVG> yep
23:05:54  <glx> exact message is better
23:05:55  <VVG> xp 32
23:05:57  <SmatZ> anyway, post crash.* to
23:06:09  <SmatZ> *=dmp,png,log,sav
23:06:10  <Mazur> 3.241592 ?
23:06:11  <VVG> i can pastebin whole crash log
23:06:16  <glx> I bet it's a NOT_REACHED()
23:06:18  <SmatZ> Mazur: alsmos :)
23:06:20  <VVG> yeo
23:06:21  <SmatZ> -s
23:06:22  <VVG> yep
23:06:23  <Mazur> typo
23:06:26  <SmatZ> glx: you got that too?
23:06:27  <Mazur> s.2.1.
23:06:30  <SmatZ> ;)
23:06:44  <SmatZ> alsmos = almost
23:07:01  <glx> no, but assert in newgrf_* are usually NOT_REACHED
23:07:11  <Rubidium> pi: 3,1415926539879323846 (according to a bridge in Enschede)
23:07:17  <VVG> i have no idea what to write at, especially since i can't reproduce it
23:07:33  <SmatZ> :)
23:07:47  <glx> you can paste the log and attach the files
23:07:55  <Mazur> Nice bridge.
23:07:56  <SmatZ> VVG: crash.dmp will help us to get a backtrace
23:08:07  <VVG> and i'm not registered :(
23:08:19  <Eddi|zuHause> that's easily solved :p
23:08:34  <Eddi|zuHause> just need an email address
23:08:48  <Eddi|zuHause> one that you actually read when there's a mail
23:09:25  <glx> VVG: I guess it's fixed in r20153
23:09:48  <SmatZ> @commit 20153
23:09:48  <DorpsGek> SmatZ: Commit by frosch :: r20153 trunk/src/newgrf_commons.cpp (2010-07-14 20:26:01 UTC)
23:09:49  <DorpsGek> SmatZ: -Fix (r20125): Make the snowchecks for clear land and trees consistent with the other tiletypes.
23:10:16  <glx> but better check the dmp
23:10:51  <glx> hmm no looking at the diff it's not that
23:11:56  <glx> so we (I) need the dmp
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23:12:05  <VVG>
23:12:12  <VVG> Is everything done right there?
23:12:31  <glx> no crash.sav?
23:13:08  <VVG> no, why?
23:13:13  <VVG> it as during map generation
23:13:19  <VVG> erm
23:13:27  <VVG> before i actually got into the map i think
23:13:28  <Rubidium> ooh... futuristic :)
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23:13:37  <SmatZ> strange, no town names set loaded
23:13:53  <glx> why strange?
23:14:02  <SmatZ> it crashed during town generation :)
23:14:10  <SmatZ> probably
23:14:43  <VVG> well, i can say for sure it crashed after i pressed generate new map and before the game actually started :)
23:15:30  <SmatZ> "kdesu" in czech dialect means "where am I?" and "su" means "(I) am"... makes whole new meaning...
23:15:36  <SmatZ> "su root" is "I am root"
23:15:39  <SmatZ> (hahaha)
23:15:39  <VVG> i was traying to get a nice looking hilly map, generated a few different maps with different settings, and only on Nth try got a crash.
23:15:41  <SmatZ> :-p
23:16:30  <VVG> Where should a crash.sav go to? it's not there with other crash files.
23:16:36  <Rubidium> educated guess: town near map edge, GetNearbyTileInformation -> MP_VOID
23:17:39  <zachanima> SmatZ, ?
23:18:13  <SmatZ> hello zachanima :) that's all I wanted to say... nice you were at the party!
23:18:21  <zachanima> well it was nice being there!
23:18:32  <zachanima> pity I've been too busy to continue work on my scenario
23:18:42  <SmatZ> zachanima: great :) yeah, bad you had to leave...
23:18:43  <zachanima> or to do anything openttd-related actually
23:18:48  <SmatZ> as well as other guys
23:18:49  <glx> Rubidium: I think you're right
23:18:53  <zachanima> SmatZ, yeah, how did it turn out?
23:18:55  <glx> (trace added)
23:19:36  <SmatZ> zachanima: it was fine, we were talking... about 5 people stood over the night
23:19:49  <SmatZ> so planetmaker had no problem "accomodating" us (on the floor :)
23:19:58  <zachanima> sounds awesome
23:20:51  <zachanima> but uh
23:20:56  <SmatZ> :)
23:20:56  <zachanima> yeah, I didn't have a place to stay
23:21:00  <zachanima> ^^;
23:21:09  <SmatZ> well, you would fit somewhere :)
23:21:18  <zachanima> probably
23:21:41  <zachanima> well, I ended up staying at Hannover Hbf. for about 6 hours anyway >>
23:22:10  <SmatZ> :x
23:22:13  <Rubidium> VVG: what town NewGRF did you use? Can't find one in the crash log
23:22:39  <SmatZ> there will be next "party" in the end of Septermber... in Prague... I wonder if anyone will come, apart from planetmaker :)
23:22:52  <zachanima> it's immensely far away :s
23:23:06  <zachanima> I've been there twice, though, actually
23:23:38  <SmatZ> nice :)
23:23:58  <zachanima> 'twas!
23:24:16  <zachanima> I could go there again. But not in september, my wallet is sort of
23:24:18  <zachanima> well, yeah
23:24:29  <zachanima> I travel a lot more than I can afford ^^;;
23:24:31  <Rubidium> pff... train's expensive (and 10+ hours)
23:24:35  <SmatZ> :-)
23:24:50  <glx> Rubidium: jpbuild2w
23:24:52  <SmatZ> yeah, it's too far for most people
23:25:01  <glx> I think
23:25:32  <Rubidium> SmatZ: 250 euros is quite a lot
23:26:06  <SmatZ> Rubidium: indeed, a lot
23:26:21  <Rubidium> how much to get from the airport to "town"?
23:26:35  <SmatZ> ~1E
23:26:37  <SmatZ> by bus
23:27:11  <SmatZ> 1-day ticket = 4E
23:27:20  <SmatZ> 3-days 12E
23:27:29  <Rubidium> oh... Alberth and Yexo can come :)
23:27:37  <SmatZ> :-)
23:27:42  <Rubidium> only 53 euro round trip by plane + 2*1 euro for the bus
23:28:00  <SmatZ> + 30 euro airport tax?
23:28:01  <Rubidium> given the two random dates in September I entered
23:28:41  <Rubidium> SmatZ: IIRC it's forbidden to not mention those
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23:28:48  <Rubidium> and actually it's 48,40 tax
23:28:53  <SmatZ> :-x
23:28:54  <Rubidium> and 4,58 ticket price
23:28:58  <SmatZ> that's nice
23:29:05  <SmatZ> ryanair doesn't how the tax
23:29:14  <SmatZ> till you click for details
23:29:26  <SmatZ> but maybe it applies for CZ
23:30:28  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... the hard drive made the bad sound again...
23:30:45  <Rubidium> ah... Swiss seems economical...
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23:30:46  <SmatZ> "-x
23:30:49  <SmatZ> :-x
23:30:56  <Rubidium> Amsterdam -> Zurich -> Prague
23:31:02  <SmatZ> :)
23:31:17  <SmatZ> you can go by car somewhere...
23:31:30  <SmatZ> not sure if to Zurich :-p
23:32:14  <glx> VVG: if you use 4240349754 as seed can you reproduce it ?
23:32:17  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: that's pretty much a right angle
23:35:50  <Rubidium> SmatZ: don't have a car (or license)
23:36:30  <SmatZ> Rubidium: last time you went with TB :) I thought you have a car, when you showed us some photos of your flat
23:36:35  <SmatZ> I thought the car was yours...
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23:37:11  <Rubidium> also to get to the airport with the cheap tickets... well to be on time I'd have to leave the house around 04:00 and pay some 25 euro each way for public transport
23:37:17  <VVG> Rubidium: I don't have any town grf in newgrf list
23:37:31  <VVG> oh wait
23:37:37  <VVG> there is, japanese buildings
23:37:50  <Rubidium> SmatZ: nope, probably the one of my parents
23:38:27  <SmatZ> Rubidium: :-x well, it's bad when the bus is more expensive than the plane
23:38:52  <Rubidium> it lotsa hours of train
23:38:55  <SmatZ> similiar when I go to Frankfurt-Hahn (to fly with Ryanair), the bus is more expensive too
23:39:09  <Rubidium> but that gives me an idea
23:39:28  <SmatZ> :)
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23:39:46  <SmatZ> I have to ask planetmaker when he is going to be here
23:39:52  <SmatZ> for more precise dates :)
23:41:54  <Rubidium> there... that's even better... 33 euro by bus, though depending on the date it can be quite a bit more expensive (and I still need to get to the place to get on that bus)
23:43:08  <SmatZ> :)
23:43:16  <SmatZ> you are always welcome here, Rubidium :)
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23:51:34  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20197 /trunk/src/newgrf_commons.cpp: -Fix [FS#3963]: GetNearbyTileInformation can be used to get the terrain type of a MP_VOID tile.
23:51:53  <Rubidium> SmatZ: what date would it be?
23:52:53  *** ajmiles [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
23:54:57  <SmatZ> Rubidium: I don't know exactly, I have to ask planetmaker :(
23:55:11  <SmatZ> sometimes at the end of September
23:55:16  <SmatZ> will be great if you come!
23:57:20  <Rubidium> departing on monday (at 23:59) and returning on thursday (at 17:00) is 20 euros cheaper than departing on friday and returning on sunday (same times)
23:58:21  <SmatZ> no problem for me
23:58:24  <Rubidium> roughly 12:30 drive (return trip is 15 minutes shorter for some reason)

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