Log for #openttd on 24th July 2010:
Times are UTC Toggle Colours
00:09:10  *** TruePikachu [] has joined #openttd
00:10:12  <TruePikachu> I got new equipment from Time Warner
00:10:16  *** Devroush [] has quit []
00:10:36  <TruePikachu> Brand new modem, NOT problematic (actually one that is quite nice)
00:10:49  <TruePikachu> Bought a 7dBi antenna for the modem
00:10:58  <TruePikachu> Got a very good wireless adapter
00:11:15  <TruePikachu> And successfully downloaded the OpenTTD server list :D
00:12:10  *** duckblaster [] has joined #openttd
00:12:20  <TruePikachu> duckblaster, can you do me a favor?
00:12:28  <duckblaster> what?
00:12:44  <duckblaster> i only just logged in
00:13:05  <TruePikachu> Repeat this IP address: (I'm checking if the modem is still changing it)
00:13:14  <duckblaster> ping it?
00:13:19  <TruePikachu> No, just repeat it
00:13:28  <duckblaster>
00:13:43  <duckblaster> 67     49     42     89
00:16:32  <Eddi|zuHause> doesn't look like an internal IP to me...
00:16:54  <duckblaster> i think that is what he wants to check
00:17:17  <duckblaster> maybe his router converts it from internal to external
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00:30:52  <fjb> May be not the router. May be the provider...
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00:45:22  <mrprise> hello
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00:47:32  <CaptObvious> I remember a while ago I had an IRC bot that provided OpenTTD server info but I can't for the life of me remember what it was called.  Anyone have any ideas?
00:48:39  <CaptObvious> aha, autopilot, nevermind :)
00:48:47  <Eddi|zuHause> aut...
00:49:08  <mrprise> how can I transfer wood goods?
00:49:24  <Eddi|zuHause> mrprise: what kind of transfer?
00:50:48  <mrprise> eg train. I could not find a wood goods car for trains
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01:07:42  <nad> hi
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01:22:34  <mrdiaz> hi ... i can change the city name?
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01:49:13  <Sevalecan> stop.... git bisect time!
01:49:16  <Sevalecan> <# git.
01:49:17  <Sevalecan> <3^
01:49:23  <Sevalecan> yes, my heart is exploding with joy.
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03:02:18  <CaptObvious> is there any way to make a dedicated server reload openttd.cfg without restarting it?
03:02:34  <CaptObvious> I accidentally left it on autosave every month and want to turn that off without restarting the server
03:02:47  <CaptObvious> I suppose I could just symlink /autosave to /dev/null :P
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06:23:03  <andythenorth> morning
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06:49:19  <roboboy> hello
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06:55:11  <Wolf01> hello
06:57:35  <planetmaker> moin
06:57:43  <planetmaker> CaptObvious: that's what you have rcon for
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07:08:09  <andythenorth> planetmaker: so Action D is easy? :P
07:10:58  <planetmaker> yes
07:11:39  <planetmaker> -1 * 00 0D 8E \D= FF 00 \wNEWVALUE
07:11:51  <planetmaker> sets global var 8E to NEWVALUE
07:12:31  <planetmaker> hm... it should be \dNEWVALUE
07:12:37  <andythenorth> my guess had the arguments wrong :)
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07:12:48  <planetmaker> or whatever the 4-byte argument is
07:13:31  <andythenorth> my gcc finished :o
07:14:02  <planetmaker> :-)
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07:22:31  *** Alberth [] has joined #openttd
07:22:45  <andythenorth> morning Alberth :)
07:22:47  <andythenorth> nice patch
07:22:52  <Alberth> good morning
07:23:09  <Alberth> navigating the industries makes sense ?
07:24:10  <andythenorth> It's quite easy to get lost, but it still feels intuitive to me
07:24:15  <andythenorth> if that makes sense
07:24:44  <Alberth> so you get lost intuitively :p    ok :)
07:25:04  <Alberth> hopefully more people will play alternative industry sets now :)
07:26:51  <andythenorth> I would have no problem with that :)
07:27:15  * robotboy wonders how he is supposed to build OpenTTD using DJGPP if there is no configure that comes with it
07:27:49  * andythenorth is looking for white pixels
07:27:50  <andythenorth> grr
07:29:18  <andythenorth> yay.  no white pixels
07:35:19  <Alberth> configure is part of the application, not of the compiler
07:36:07  <andythenorth> :)
07:38:15  * andythenorth could do with a diaresis (?) on "Gmund"
07:38:28  <Alberth> doing trains as well now?
07:39:01  <andythenorth> just a little one
07:39:28  <Alberth> that's how everything starts :)
07:43:17  <Terkhen> good morning
07:44:39  <andythenorth> hi Terkhen
07:44:57  <andythenorth> Terkhen: have you coded smoke for RVs yet?
07:45:47  <andythenorth> :P
07:47:01  <Terkhen> I have not been coding much lately.. only small things
07:47:06  <Terkhen> university steals most of my time
07:48:03  <Terkhen> right now I'm thinking about taking a free saturday, but I shouldn't until my project starts working as intended
07:49:30  <andythenorth> :)
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08:00:25  <ccfreak2k> <andythenorth> :)
08:00:28  <ccfreak2k> Toot toot :3
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08:23:50  <Terkhen> oh, now HEQS has trains?
08:24:28  *** robotboy [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
08:25:17  <andythenorth> Terkhen: a sort of train, yes :)
08:25:38  * andythenorth is hoping someone will code *actual* road-rail vehicles :P
08:25:45  * andythenorth is not too hopeful of that :)
08:25:58  <andythenorth> multi mode vehicles would be brilliant
08:26:05  <andythenorth> hovercraft on land
08:26:13  <andythenorth> sea trucks
08:26:16  <andythenorth> road-railers
08:26:22  <andythenorth> flying car....
08:30:40  <De_Ghosty> flying trains
08:30:54  <De_Ghosty> swimming air
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08:45:17  <TomyLobo> hi
08:45:38  <TomyLobo> is it possible to increase the map size after starting it?
08:49:42  <Alberth> no
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10:00:15  * robotboy wonders how he will solve the issue of not having a configure script when building OpenTTD on DOS
10:00:39  <Alberth> a configure script is part of openttd afaik
10:01:18  <planetmaker> robotboy: cross-compile
10:01:25  <robotboy> it is but it's for *nix and I want to use DJGPP to compile for DOS on DOS
10:01:32  <Alberth> you should be able to run it with a shell
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10:01:56  <robotboy> I don't have a *nix machine or cygwin
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10:04:54  <Alberth> you don't have bash or so?
10:05:09  <TomyLobo> there are debian vmware player images, easy to use
10:05:28  <fonsinchen> how do you usually configure things you build with DJGPP?
10:05:31  <Alberth> TomyLobo: the point is to use djgpp
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10:08:21  <Rubidium> robotboy: compile bash for DOS and use bash
10:12:42  <robotboy> I shall try that
10:13:01  <robotboy> hopefuly it won't require a configure script
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10:15:02  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: alberth * r20211 /trunk/src/ (49 files in 10 dirs): -Codechange: Indented code should have curly braces around it.
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10:18:32  <fonsinchen> "49 files in 10 dirs" <- great fun ahead for patch developers :(
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10:19:49  <Rubidium> it helps the "but you're not following coding style yourself" "reasoning" for not complying to the coding style of patch developers
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10:23:26  <Alberth> quite a few changes in low level code, like network, path-finding, and graphic drivers. most patches don't touch that area I think
10:23:54  <fonsinchen> I'
10:23:59  <fonsinchen> ll try to merge it
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10:25:33  <fonsinchen> wow, not a single conflict. It looked much worse than it actually is.
10:27:12  <Alberth> very old and untouched code thus :)
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10:30:00  <robotboy> hopefuly I don't need the configure script for bash
10:30:26  <robotboy> otherwise ill need to port bash myself
10:31:24  <planetmaker> :-D
10:32:09  <robotboy> there is a guide on the DJGPP site
10:32:19  <robotboy> for porting GNU programs
10:33:54  *** TB is now known as TrueBrain
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10:45:05  <robotboy> looks like I might need it
10:47:57  <TomyLobo> seriously, why dos? :)
10:48:07  <planetmaker> TomyLobo: just because
10:48:14  <TomyLobo> ah, good reason
10:48:43  <planetmaker> is there a reason to play?
10:48:47  <planetmaker> just because
10:49:26  <robotboy> hm I shall try the DJGPP prot I found
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10:50:11  <robotboy> TomyLobo, I am the traditional tester of all things TTD DOS related on here and the forums
10:50:37  <robotboy> or atleast since I joined the forums
10:51:25  <Rubidium> it's the challenge
10:52:14  <Rubidium> and it's just to "discredit" people saying OpenTTD doesn't work under DOS
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10:54:49  <TomyLobo> 19 years since the release of ms dos 5.0
10:55:03  <NoBrainHere> Hi.
10:55:17  <Wolf01> I want to ask something really off topic: does anybody knows "Alice Cooper - Poison"?
10:55:29  <Rubidium> TrueBrain: is NoBrainHere family of you?
10:55:36  <Chrill> no, we've never heard of perhaps the most famous rock song of all time, Wolf01 :)
10:56:08  <TrueBrain> Rubidium: hell no
10:56:34  <Rubidium> oh, in that case... welcome NoBrainHere :)
10:56:36  <Wolf01> then, the very first words are "Your cruel device" or "You're cruel demise" which sounds almost the same but the second one meaning is more suitable?
10:56:42  <TrueBrain> grrr @ Rubidium
10:57:25  * NoBrainHere explodes
10:57:26  <Rubidium> Wolf01: I would've said no, but now google's playing it for me it sounds awkwardly familiar
10:57:46  <Rubidium> TrueBrain, nice guard dog :)
10:58:20  <Wolf01> In all lyrics sites I find always the first sentence, but IMHO it's the second, at least as I can understand with my poor English :P
10:58:35  <planetmaker> lol @ Rubidium + TrueBrain 's old couple behaviour ;-)
10:58:50  <NoBrainHere> is illegally providing CS'TTD with "de" graphics.
10:59:20  <planetmaker> eh?
10:59:26  <NoBrainHere> original TTD for DOS, 4.76 mb packaged
10:59:29  <__ln__> so?
10:59:46  <TomyLobo> it's not like it's legally available anymore anyway
10:59:49  <planetmaker> people do things which we don't endorse
10:59:56  <planetmaker> TomyLobo: wrong!
11:00:01  <TomyLobo> it is?
11:00:02  <__ln__> a russian website illegally providing a commercial game; that's big news!
11:00:22  <NoBrainHere> Russian inet must be wiped
11:00:38  <NoBrainHere> and only weather/news sites must remain
11:00:39  <Rubidium> TomyLobo:
11:01:10  <Rubidium> NoBrainHere: we can't do anything about the original TTD being distributed, besides doing something about it on our "own" sites
11:02:03  <TomyLobo> interesting
11:02:35  <TrueBrain> it is not like we have the power to wipe the whole internet from the non-legal versions :D
11:03:01  <planetmaker> TomyLobo: and even if it were not available: it does give no one the right to distribute it - except the copyright holders
11:03:12  <planetmaker> Unless they're 70 years dead or so. But that's unlikely
11:03:38  <TomyLobo> sure, but in that case it doesn't mean taking their money or something
11:03:46  <planetmaker> not?
11:03:48  * robotboy waits for GREP to unzip
11:03:57  <TomyLobo> unless they plan to market it later, which, in most cases, never happens
11:04:07  <planetmaker> TomyLobo: so you know what they plan?
11:04:33  <TomyLobo> and even IF they do. if i want to play it now that doesnt mean i want to play it in 3 years when they re-release it
11:04:58  *** KenjiE20 [~KenjiE20@] has joined #openttd
11:05:17  <robotboy> what should I set my home environment variable to so that configure doesn't complain?
11:05:53  <Rubidium> AFAIK it doesn't check $HOME
11:06:05  <robotboy> I got bash and it works
11:06:13  <robotboy> hm it said HOME not set
11:06:25  <Rubidium> that's bash itself
11:06:36  <robotboy> ok and I can ignore that
11:06:49  <Alberth> any directory would do, I think
11:07:32  <Alberth> it is probably used to find your ~/.bashrc etc files
11:07:43  * robotboy wonders if he could build TTDP with DJGPP since they ported the ASM bit of GCC
11:08:02  <robotboy> hm ok
11:08:51  <NoBrainHere> CS might pretty much re-release the game for some lame ARM netbook. In that case, would be wiped
11:09:29  <planetmaker> NoBrainHere: yes. Nothing to worry about, though
11:09:32  <Alberth> NoBrainHere: go complain with CS if this RU site is so upsetting you
11:09:42  <robotboy> but he said he doesn't own it anymore
11:10:21  <Rubidium> and don't forget mediazona
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11:10:36  <Alberth> well, go to the company that owns it, then. They may want to stop them
11:10:39  <NoBrainHere> mediazona's link is dead, anyway
11:11:37  <NoBrainHere> sometimes removes downloads if a game is found to be sold in Russia and/or other ex-USSR countries.
11:13:10  <Rubidium> you can just order it on the internet, so it'll be delivered at your doorstep... pretty much means it's sold there as well
11:13:33  <Rubidium> but... please don't bother us with some random site infringing rights that aren't ours
11:13:56  <Rubidium> please write a nice letter to Atari, so they can say they aren't bothered either
11:14:31  <NoBrainHere> Atari owns the loco thing
11:14:38  <planetmaker> so?
11:14:46  <NoBrainHere> not the TTD.
11:14:49  <Alberth> NoBrainHere: we really don't care about such stuff
11:14:51  <planetmaker> it doesn't own openttd.
11:15:03  <planetmaker> and openttd is what this channel is about
11:15:12  <Rubidium> NoBrainHere: you're 100% sure Atari doesn't own TTD?
11:15:51  <NoBrainHere> OTTD is TTD engine for Unix/WinNT.
11:16:04  <Rubidium> NoBrainHere: you're absolutely making no sense here
11:16:20  * robotboy considers changing his nick to roboman since he is 19
11:16:50  *** NoBrainHere is now known as TheWorstRoboPig
11:16:54  *** Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause
11:17:16  <Chrill> yay
11:17:21  <Chrill> when didi roboman become 19?
11:17:36  <robotboy> in june
11:17:41  <Chrill> Ah, belated congratulations then! :D
11:17:54  <robotboy> thanx
11:17:57  <Chrill> also, I surely win. I'm older than the robotboy
11:18:25  * TheWorstRoboPig regs on atari forum
11:21:40  *** mode/#openttd [+q *!*@] by Rubidium
11:23:43  <Rubidium> would there be use for smallmap zoom-in in "current" OpenTTD, and if so... for what reasons? (That it's needed for cargod*st isn't considered a valid reason for this question)
11:24:47  <SpComb> will very contrieved reasons do?
11:25:13  * SpComb doesn't really see any "valid" reasons
11:25:28  <SpComb> the tiles themselves contain very little extra information if zoomed in, it's just the... stuff.. that you draw on top of them
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11:28:08  <TomyLobo> blind people maybe?
11:28:14  <TomyLobo> or people with huge screens
11:28:34  <Rubidium> people with huge screens generally have less of a problem
11:28:35  <TomyLobo> i mean huge resolutions
11:29:02  <Rubidium> small screens with huge resolutions (15" @ 1920x1200) might have trouble, but then... I'm not having trouble
11:29:12  <Alberth> doubling the graphics of the viewport would be my first solution for such problems
11:29:55  <TomyLobo> Alberth hmm how to do that?
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11:31:00  <Alberth> no idea, but it seems like a better solution to 'graphics are too small' than changing the smallmap imho
11:31:23  <TomyLobo> oh you were talking about the minimap
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11:31:55  <Alberth> TomyLobo: yes, the min-map is called 'smallmap'
11:32:01  <fonsinchen> I wrote smallmap-zoom-in especially for cargodist. If you're considering cargodist for merging (sometime in the future) you may want to do that bit by bit. Smallmap-zoom-in might be a suitable first step.
11:33:14  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't see a reason other than cargodist for it either...
11:33:24  <fonsinchen> We should make some kind of plan in that case, though ...
11:34:38  <TomyLobo> Alberth on my screen it's simply called "map" ^^
11:34:40  <Alberth> I'd first need convincing reasons there are no other solutions. Even the small map gets cluttered so badly you need 8x zoom-in, so something seems to be not right, imho
11:35:04  <Hirundo> Does the structure of cargodist allow other, simpler routing algorithms than MCF ?
11:35:24  <fonsinchen> yes, you could replace that link graph handler with something else.
11:35:44  * robotboy hopes not too many dls to get configure to work
11:35:53  <fonsinchen> it's completely contained in mcf.{h|cpp} and it has a clean interface.
11:36:06  <Alberth> TomyLobo: the source file of that window is called 'smallmap_gui.cpp', hence its name
11:36:23  <Eddi|zuHause> fonsinchen: Celestar had some kind of problem with unsatisified links vs. oversatisfied links
11:36:29  * Hirundo checks source
11:36:34  <fonsinchen> when? where?
11:36:39  <TomyLobo> ah
11:36:45  <Eddi|zuHause> a line A-B-C was totally congested, while A-C was almost emptry
11:36:48  <Eddi|zuHause> -r
11:36:56  <Eddi|zuHause> fonsinchen: in here, a few days ago
11:37:16  <fonsinchen> @seen Celestar
11:37:16  <DorpsGek> fonsinchen: Celestar was last seen in #openttd 1 day, 20 hours, 11 minutes, and 38 seconds ago: <Celestar> heading home before the Cbs decide to unload
11:38:03  <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause: wasn't that non-stop?
11:38:09  <SpComb> or, well, non-non-stop
11:38:11  <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: maybe
11:38:20  <Eddi|zuHause> don't remember all details
11:38:29  <SpComb> link to irclogs
11:39:28  <SpComb>
11:39:47  <SpComb> »» 17:29:03 < Eddi|zuHause> Celestar: no, cargodist does not handle non-non-stop properly
11:39:50  <SpComb> »» 17:29:30 < Celestar> aaha
11:39:53  <SpComb> »» 17:29:34 < Celestar> that|s the problem
11:40:28  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, imho that's the most pressing missing feature that would block a trunk merge for me...
11:41:24  <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: i don't remember everything i say ;)
11:41:28  <SpComb> I'm perfectly happy giving full orders, never even realized you could do something else until I started playing cargod*st
11:42:20  <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: sometimes i'm reading old threads on the forum, and while reading i think "someone should reply 'XYZ'", and when i scroll down, i read "Reply by Eddi: 'XYZ'", and i think "hey, cool" :p
11:42:24  <robotboy> hm more bits needed
11:42:31  <Hirundo> fonsinchen: The way I see it is that any algorithm has to answer two basic questions
11:42:57  <Hirundo> What will be the destination of cargo X? Should I board vehicle Y to get there?
11:43:00  * Alberth gives robotboy  lots of 0s and 1s
11:43:35  <fonsinchen> any algorithm to replace MCF? But how is MCF the problem here?
11:43:55  <fonsinchen> the problems I've heard mentioning are nondeterministic orders and the smallmap.
11:44:21  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think the question was related to those ;)
11:44:21  <fonsinchen> We could just drop the smallmap for now. It's not that important. You can get all the info from the station windows.
11:44:28  <SpComb> wasn't one of the arguments that the linkgraph could be drawn on the main game viewport?
11:45:17  <SpComb> i.e. with zoomin the smallmap and main viewport become too similar
11:45:20  <fonsinchen> I think the other nondeterministic orders are much harder. I've wasted a lot of time thinking about a solution for those.
11:45:55  <Eddi|zuHause> fonsinchen: one tiny thing i was missing a while back, when hovering over a link in the link graph, it highlights, but when you click on it, it jumps to the location you clicked, not to the stations involved [like it would when clicking a subsidy newspaper]
11:46:01  <Hirundo> I think the threaded linkgraph/mcf solver adds a lot of complexity, i.e. more code to review
11:46:06  <planetmaker>  Message: Assertion failed at line 168 of /Users/ingo/ottd/trunk/src/vehicle.cpp: (this->vehstatus & VS_CRASHED) == 0 <-- I get that when loading a pretty old savegame. Can a wrong station tile cause that?
11:46:50  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: post the savegame
11:47:13  <fonsinchen> Hirundo: I don't think the code can be made significantly shorter. The threading is already optional and if I implemented that "stepping" solution the code would actually grow, not shrink.
11:47:31  <planetmaker> <-- savegame link
11:48:12  <Hirundo> The code can be made shorter by not doing it (yet)
11:48:48  <robotboy> downloads gawk
11:49:07  <Alberth> would doing it the other way around be useful, ie first implement balancing-ish code, and at the end do cargo-dist
11:49:12  <robotboy> my DOS is going to end up being more *nix
11:49:26  <planetmaker> dosnix?
11:49:30  <fonsinchen> what do you mean by "balancing-ish code"?
11:49:34  <Alberth> you seem to be building your own unix
11:49:40  <robotboy> yep
11:49:49  <robotboy> ohwell
11:50:09  <Eddi|zuHause> robotboy: well, you could try to port configure to .bat ;)
11:50:16  <robotboy> better batchsh scripting capabilities
11:50:17  <planetmaker> <-- actually... direct savegame link @ Eddi|zuHause
11:51:42  <Alberth> fonsinchen: eg do time-tabling first or some other form of balancing cargoes at the stations. However, that is only useful if you can build on top of that
11:52:17  <fonsinchen> how does timetabling balance cargoes at the stations?
11:52:26  <Alberth> ie is MCF a solution for the CD problem, or does it already exist today?
11:52:34  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... missing lots of grfs...
11:53:20  <planetmaker> that's why I'm actually asking ;-)
11:53:30  <fonsinchen> MCF is a solution for that cargodist problem and such a solution doesn't exist (in trunk) today. But I guess you're asking something else I didn't get.
11:53:50  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: a missing grf is totally plausible to cause this error...
11:54:12  <planetmaker> Well. I'm not missing, but I'm having three compatible stations
11:54:15  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: but missing station grfs shouldn't cause it
11:54:23  <planetmaker> The question is whether they're compatible or 'compatible'
11:54:50  <planetmaker>      Compatible NewGRF loaded: GRF ID 46420801, checksum 2D654630F22AA4C78A58710024C514B3, filename: new_tram_tracks.0.4.1/newtramtracksw_v0.4.1.grf
11:54:52  <planetmaker>      Compatible NewGRF loaded: GRF ID 73660201, checksum A48EECE8456F718D569150FE2EC18C1A, filename: ottdc_grfpack/4_infrastructure/a_ngrails/ngrailsw.grf
11:54:54  <planetmaker>      Compatible NewGRF loaded: GRF ID 43415261, checksum 808FD3F3D2863F86DD18B18AA6C4E990, filename: ottdc_grfpack/4_infrastructure/naroads/NARoadsw.grf
11:54:55  <planetmaker>      Compatible NewGRF loaded: GRF ID 43415463, checksum 422B1603DC1CEDA4E59E715E12EAD332, filename: ottdc_grfpack/7_stations/canstn/canstnw.grf
11:54:57  <planetmaker>      Compatible NewGRF loaded: GRF ID 58534453, checksum 2E100BCA91DB8371CD9D57DBEC3AB0C8, filename: ottdc_grfpack/7_stations/dutchstat/dutchstatw.grf
11:54:58  <planetmaker>      Compatible NewGRF loaded: GRF ID 659E5728, checksum A63335CE72E5E4844675C4632598B76B, filename: ottdc_grfpack/9_last/shiptool/shiptoolv4.grf
11:55:07  *** Yexo [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
11:55:07  <Eddi|zuHause> "incompatible" stations may cause track-tiles to become non-track
11:55:08  <planetmaker> ^ Those 6 ones are which I don't have quite, but in another version
11:55:23  <planetmaker> yes, I know that sufficiently from ISR. But IIRC that looks differently
11:55:53  <planetmaker> and the track / road replacements should be harmless
11:56:12  <planetmaker> same as the price modifier for ships
11:56:16  <planetmaker> *should*
11:56:33  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: that pretty much matches my list, except i don't have canset and "foundw_209"
11:56:51  <planetmaker> I dug them out ;-)
11:56:56  <fonsinchen> Cargodist could theoretically done in a "manual" micromanagement way:
11:57:07  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: if it helps I can provide you with them
11:57:28  <Alberth> fonsinchen: don't know, but CD seems one big piece of complex code that mainly does connection/balancing management, I think (without close study). I am wondering whether you could solve some problem today where that part of the code gets into trunk.
11:57:31  <fonsinchen> With Proper timetabling and complete control over the amounts of cargo being transferred and delivered at each station
11:59:33  <robotboy> nearly got everything
11:59:39  <fonsinchen> Alberth: It also does "distribution", ie it determines which cargo "wants" to go where. This is actually the precondition to any balancing. Also it does connection tracking, not connection management and you can have that as a separate thing; see branch "capacities".
12:01:36  <robotboy> somehow I don't think i'll be writing a wiki article on compiling OpenTTD on DOS
12:01:49  <Alberth> assigning a destination is trivial :p    perhaps the balancing thing is not needed so much?
12:02:19  <fonsinchen> it's not trivial. See the part in the wiki article about demands.
12:02:52  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: #4  0x0839baf0 in Vehicle::Crash (this=0x8b04de0, flooded=true) at /home/johannes/spiele/OpenTTD/trunk/src/vehicle.cpp:168
12:02:54  <fonsinchen> Even without balancing choosing a route is hard.
12:03:00  <Eddi|zuHause> so apparently it tries to flood a vehicle
12:03:08  <Eddi|zuHause> that seems to not be related to station sets...
12:03:29  <Alberth> fonsinchen: just hop on the first train in the right direction?
12:03:31  <fonsinchen> mcf.cpp is 16k
12:04:20  <fonsinchen> A simpler algorithm might be a little smaller, but not that much.
12:04:28  <Alberth> but I am sure you are right it is less trivial than it looks
12:04:45  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... paste still unresponsive...
12:04:54  <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause: it's dead for good
12:04:59  <SmatZ> at least for some time
12:05:00  <fonsinchen> Alberth: The interesting question is "what is the right direction?"
12:05:33  * robotboy thinks he will first attempt to compile without OpenTTD-Useful
12:05:50  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: this is the vehicle
12:06:35  <Alberth> fonsinchen: yes, a question with many answers.
12:07:17  <planetmaker> hm
12:07:18  <Hirundo> I think the tricky bit is indeed what you call 'non-deterministic orders'
12:07:26  <planetmaker> question is: what to do with that now...
12:07:46  <fonsinchen> non-deterministic orders are orders where I don't know the next stopping station before the order is evaluated.
12:07:49  <Eddi|zuHause> tile = 180636
12:07:50  <fonsinchen> Those are nasty.
12:07:53  <Eddi|zuHause> you might want to check this
12:08:10  <Alberth> fonsinchen: My overall feeling of CD is that it is over-managing in some way. Eg the link-graph shows that. However, I cannot put my finger on it
12:08:49  <Alberth> Hirundo: imho you should not bother about those, just like you don't hop on a train that may or may not stop at some station.
12:09:31  <fonsinchen> They are a problem because people expect the "right" cargo to be loaded but it isn't.
12:09:33  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: try "scrollto"-ing to that location, should give some clues ;)
12:09:49  <planetmaker> yes, it does
12:09:55  <planetmaker> a water-depot
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12:09:59  <planetmaker> however that got there
12:10:22  <SpComb> on land?
12:10:31  <Hirundo> About stopping orders, I think that these could be ignored to a certain point
12:10:50  <Alberth> fonsinchen: people often have unrealistic expectations
12:10:52  <planetmaker> SpComb: vice versa
12:10:53  <Hirundo> Passengers that want to go to the next station in the order list just board the train like normal
12:10:57  <planetmaker> a rail depot in the ocean
12:11:07  <planetmaker> which claims to have a train, but there's none in there
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12:11:31  <fonsinchen> What about conditional orders depending on something like reliability (which drops while loading)?
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12:11:49  <robotboy> hopefuly bash will get configure done this time
12:12:09  <Alberth> you have m4 too?
12:12:27  <robotboy> it came with one of the downloads
12:12:36  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: if i enable build while paused, and raise the area around the depot, it doesn't crash anymore
12:12:38  <Alberth> although that may only be needed for making a .configure
12:12:46  <Alberth> *./configure
12:12:52  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i think this is a real bug
12:12:55  <Hirundo> fonsinchen: Assuming that the condition is always false should work for a start
12:13:16  <Hirundo> You just can't get it right anyway
12:13:25  <Alberth> and probably never
12:13:26  <Hirundo> The same problem exists for path signals
12:13:52  <Hirundo> (reserve a path through your destination heading for A, while you should have gone to B instead)
12:14:01  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: hm, ok. I'll guess I'll prepare a bug report then. Thanks for looking at it, too
12:14:47  <Hirundo> there, the orders are evaluated at the point of choosing, you could do the same
12:14:51  <fonsinchen> Alberth: I don't quite know what you mean by "over-managing", but I kept a close eye on code size and nice integration. The link graph is a place where a complex calculation has to be done on a pretty isolated set of data. This is a good place to create a new "module" which manages itself.
12:15:48  <fonsinchen> Hirundo: always assuming false would mean that conditional orders are basically unusable with cargodist.
12:16:09  <fonsinchen> I'd rather stay with the current method of "load everything on nondeterministic orders"
12:16:35  <fonsinchen> Then it at least works like without cargodist.
12:16:53  <Hirundo> then what about assuming that the current situation doesn't change, like is done for PBS?
12:17:11  <fonsinchen> could be done for conditionals
12:17:22  <Alberth> I never needed a linkgraph with the previous CD by Celestar. Why do I need it with your version?
12:17:23  <Alberth> Did the previous version do it behind the screens, or did you take a different approach all together?
12:17:30  <fonsinchen> however, load percentage is guaranteed to change while loading ...
12:17:30  <robotboy> lets try once more to see if ive passed the os=DOS option correctly
12:18:07  <SpComb> Alberth: cargodest had a smallmap linkgraph
12:18:28  <fonsinchen> Alberth: Cargodest also has a link graph, it just calls it differently. I'll look that up for you ...
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12:18:48  <Alberth> also with all the data on it?
12:18:54  <Eddi|zuHause> it was called "route network"
12:19:08  <Eddi|zuHause> no, it had less data, but it also couldn't do load balancing
12:19:22  <Eddi|zuHause> which is one of the main drawbacks of cargodest
12:19:51  <SpComb> I recall getting frustrated with cargodest's routing sometimes
12:20:01  <SpComb> far less so with cargodist
12:20:31  <Alberth> well, perhaps I am wrong. That's very well possible.
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12:21:24  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: perhaps load balancing should not be part of cargo-d*st
12:21:36  <blaster> Is there any way to make it so that towns cannot be above a certain height, and will not place roads or buildings above that height?
12:21:43  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: it's a very important feature
12:21:45  <fonsinchen> Alberth: src/routing.cpp in cargodest
12:21:45  <SpComb> too much "build a wrong link somewhere and suddenly it's a million times overloaded and your other previously busy train routes are completely empty"
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12:22:05  <blaster> Because I want my towns to fit into the valleys I have instead of forming large blobs
12:22:23  <SpComb> blaster: turn off towns-build-roads?
12:22:46  <blaster> but then they wont grow at all
12:23:00  <blaster> I just want them not growing above a certain altitude
12:23:03  <Alberth> blaster: build roads for them
12:23:23  <Eddi|zuHause> blaster: there are a few lines you could tweak in src/town_cmd.cpp
12:23:48  <Alberth> there is no height-limit builtin at the moment, for towns
12:24:11  <Eddi|zuHause> like "don't allow building roads if height difference to town name is more than 3" or something...
12:24:19  <blaster> It seems unrealistic, on a snow landscape, for a town that has its center at low altitude to place buildings at high altitude
12:24:29  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: I don't deny that, but is it so tightly coupled to CD that you cannot see them as seperate problems?
12:24:47  <Alberth> blaster: realism is not a design goal of OpenTTD
12:25:17  <fonsinchen> src/routing.cpp is 32k in cargodest and it has hardly any comments.
12:26:12  <fonsinchen> src/linkgraph/*.cpp are 44k in cargodist and they contain about 50% comments.
12:26:43  <fonsinchen> Alberth: You cannot really say cargodist is more complex like that.
12:27:43  <robotboy> lets try again now that ive set the CC environment variable to my GCC path
12:30:07  <robotboy> hm it didn't seem to fix it
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12:31:33  <robotboy> it says Cant detect any gcc binary on your system please set cc/ccx environment to where it is located
12:31:41  <robotboy> but it's in my path
12:32:22  <blaster> Well it looks like I got a lot of roadbuilding to do
12:32:48  <glx> robotboy: it works when you type gcc ?
12:33:29  <glx> and g++ ?
12:34:03  <Alberth> fonsinchen: CD just feels somewhat awkard to me as player, it is not based on hard numbers or so. Mainly due to the link-graph, and the requiring of non-stop orders.
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12:34:44  * planetmaker enjoys the new ctrl+l shortcut for 'load savegame' :-)
12:34:47  <Alberth> or 'which gcc' ?
12:35:16  <glx> on DOS ?
12:35:17  <Alberth> (but not sure what provides the 'which' command)
12:35:47  <Alberth> he's building lots of unix stuff :)
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12:37:03  <blaster> Do buildings need to touch roads in a town?
12:37:19  <blaster> or can they be a small distance away
12:37:23  <Eddi|zuHause> blaster: not necessarily
12:37:42  <Eddi|zuHause> in a 3x3 grid, they may be built on the center tile
12:38:27  <Eddi|zuHause> or they may replace a 2x2 building and end up away from the road
12:39:30  <fonsinchen> Alberth: The link graph in the smallmap is not an invention of cargodist. It has been there in cargodest before and it can easily be dropped. It's entirely contained in smallmap-zoom-in and smallmap-stats. No one is obliged to merge those branches.
12:39:51  <blaster> Its annoying that you cannot have diagonal roads
12:40:01  <blaster> They would look better for european towns
12:40:06  <planetmaker> tough luck, yes
12:40:17  <robotboy> no
12:40:18  <fonsinchen> The non-stop thing can be changed so that non-stop is ignored and the next order is always considered the next stop by cargodist.
12:40:24  <robotboy> but I fixed it
12:40:30  <Eddi|zuHause> the visual graph was part of a previous paxdest patch, it wasn't an invention of cargodest either
12:40:31  <fonsinchen> This would be about 2 lines of code.
12:40:33  <robotboy> now its whinging about g++
12:40:42  <robotboy> hopefully ive fixed that
12:40:58  <fonsinchen> Cargodest has the same problem with non-stop btw.
12:41:21  <fonsinchen> Just like any implementation of cargo destinations would.
12:41:48  <Eddi|zuHause> it needs insertion of virtual orders
12:41:58  <Eddi|zuHause> which nobody has tried to solve yet
12:42:00  <Alberth> yes, it is very well possible that I am missing fundamental insights in this extension
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12:42:59  <Eddi|zuHause> like i said, that's one of the main problems that prevents it from letting go on users
12:43:17  <robotboy> hm I think ive fixed it as it wanted the CC environment variable to point at GCC and not it's dir
12:43:39  <robotboy> and bash is seing my DOS environment variables
12:44:02  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, it does that also on windows
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12:46:00  <robotboy> hm but I can't seem to get it to find g++
12:46:18  <fonsinchen> Eddi|zuHause: Even virtual orders cannot completely solve the problem. There are cases where you simply don't know where the vehicle is going.
12:46:38  <blaster> Any good modern skyscraper newgfx?
12:46:50  <fonsinchen> The best guess for those cases is indeed "load everything".
12:46:59  <Eddi|zuHause> fonsinchen: but it solves the "just put the two end points of a route without branches" problem
12:47:54  <glx> CXX for g++
12:49:21  <fonsinchen> Now the question is: how frequent is that problem compared to the "I just forgot non-stop and there are no intermediate stations" problem and would the added complexity be worth it.
12:50:03  <planetmaker> blaster: ttrs3
12:51:38  <glx> ttrs3 produces way too many passengers
12:51:57  <robotboy> hopefuly that will solve it glx
12:52:04  <robotboy> im just trying it
12:52:06  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: wouldn't generation of orders for the intermediate stations when you add the 2nd station not be more useful?
12:52:41  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: how to do that without actually travelling?
12:53:10  <robotboy> create an order for where the pathfinder is taking it to?
12:53:19  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: i fear this is heading the same direction as "autofill timetables"
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12:54:15  <blaster> planetmaker:thanks
12:54:38  <planetmaker> Japanese are also nice
12:54:53  <Alberth> I have not understood time tables either. Either they are too much manual work, or I am doing something completely wrong
12:54:58  <planetmaker> well. Every house set has its charm :-)
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12:55:15  <planetmaker> NA city has it, too. Or only nearly
12:55:55  <robotboy> im past that issue
12:56:57  <robotboy> now its whining about missing video libraries
12:57:09  <robotboy> do I need to build allegro first?
12:57:33  <planetmaker> you might try another video frontend, too
12:57:36  <planetmaker> maybe sdl?
12:58:05  <glx> for DOS only allegro works
12:58:11  <robotboy> everything ive heard says allegro is the one to use for DOS
12:58:18  <robotboy> blah glx beat me
12:58:40  <robotboy> so I need to buil allegro fist?
12:58:46  <robotboy> first
12:59:11  <glx> yes you need the libs, unless you try a dedicated build
13:03:32  <robotboy> so ive already got allegro files in my lib and include dirs
13:03:51  <robotboy> they came from the allegro zip on the djgpp site
13:07:51  <blaster>
13:08:00  <blaster> There is the biggest city I have ever made
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13:14:00  <planetmaker> <-- blaster :-)
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13:14:43  <blaster> Thats...
13:14:46  <blaster> Repetitive
13:14:57  <blaster> Is that build on flat land
13:15:17  <blaster> My city was build on mountainous rougth
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13:17:56  <planetmaker> that's very repetitive, very flat and not the biggest around ;-)
13:18:07  <planetmaker> but it has a turn-over of 100k passengers per month
13:18:19  <planetmaker> iirc
13:19:36  <blaster> My city is about 111,000 people
13:19:46  <blaster> I am planning to add another 30,000
13:20:06  <TomyLobo> "add"?
13:20:11  <blaster> Can you see that area to the south with a few rivers?
13:22:01  <blaster> The largest city would be a 3x3 covering a flat 2048x2048 map
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13:23:04  <Ammler> blaster: pm meant, that there is passenger service for around 100k/month, not just a big town
13:23:50  <planetmaker> blaster: the screen shows that the town there has 880.000 inhabitants ;-)
13:24:21  <Ammler> which are serviced :-P
13:24:27  <planetmaker> and it's only the 2nd biggest town on that map. My team mates / competitors were faster ;-)
13:24:33  <planetmaker> Ammler: all three towns are serviced ;-)
13:24:42  <blaster> So, you can go bigger
13:24:44  <blaster> much bigger
13:25:07  <Ammler> yes, with TTRS
13:25:10  <planetmaker> ok, now that you asked for bragging: #openttdcoop Records: Clients: 24 | Trains: 2001 (PSG#186) - 2522 (PZG#5) - ( 3000 (PSG#180) logic net) | Single cargo type output: 100,983 (PSG#176) | World Pop: 3,075,319 (PSG#101)
13:25:20  <TomyLobo> i have a train going from the southern edge to that station. what happens if it decides to go servicing before point A? will it go to depot 1 and never find its way to the station again?
13:25:30  <Ammler> but it might be hard without newgrfs
13:25:33  <TomyLobo> or is there some code to prevent that?
13:26:17  <Alberth> no, it is not prevented
13:26:33  <TomyLobo> eww that sucks
13:26:47  <Ammler> :-o
13:26:48  <Alberth> you tend to get 'vehicle is lost' messages
13:26:49  <TomyLobo> i must have been lucky since it never happened to me so far
13:27:43  <TomyLobo> any easy way out?
13:28:01  <Eddi|zuHause> TomyLobo: you can tell the vehicles to service only at specific depots, then it won't go to others
13:28:02  <Ammler> define service depots in orders
13:28:09  <TomyLobo> i said easy ^^
13:28:27  <Ammler> what is hard about?
13:28:28  <Alberth> build connections from/to every direction
13:28:36  <Eddi|zuHause> TomyLobo: in the orders, press "goto" and then ctrl+click on a depot
13:28:44  <Alberth> also useful when you re-organize your network
13:30:15  <TomyLobo> i cant really do that, Alberth
13:30:40  <TomyLobo>
13:30:54  <Ammler> build sidings, so trains can return
13:31:03  <TomyLobo> it would become very ugly
13:31:12  <TomyLobo> sidings?
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13:33:04  <Ammler> maglev with semaphores :-)
13:33:12  <TomyLobo> yeah :)
13:33:28  <TomyLobo> i use semaphores for block signals, electric for the rest
13:33:31  <TomyLobo> in all ages :)
13:34:27  <Ammler> you combine those and it works?
13:34:42  <TomyLobo> sure, why not?
13:34:51  <TomyLobo> it's just different graphics
13:35:06  <Ammler> I meant block and path
13:35:34  <TomyLobo> mostly, yeah
13:36:09  <TomyLobo> basically, entry into a path should be regulated by block xor path signals
13:36:19  <TomyLobo> if you combine the two, crashes can happen
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13:36:32  <TomyLobo> just for entry though
13:36:47  <TomyLobo> i mean entry into a block
13:37:10  <TomyLobo> trains dont care much about the signal at the end of a block
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13:45:41  <TomyLobo>
13:46:20  <TomyLobo> the city blob on the left is a 200k city btw :)
13:48:55  <TomyLobo> and the water triangle south of it is the y junction of which i posted a screenshot earlier
13:50:04  *** robotboy [] has joined #openttd
13:52:04  <robotboy> hello
13:53:47  <TomyLobo> domo arigato
13:53:51  <TomyLobo> mr roboto
13:55:04  <robotboy> how do I configure a mostly pointless DOS dedicated build?
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13:57:30  <robotboy> unless I can work out how to get DJGPP to link allegro
13:59:04  <robotboy> maybe I should try asking on the djgpp newsgroup
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14:03:45  <robotboy> hmph
14:08:45  * robotboy might post on the forums about linking Allegro first
14:11:51  <robotboy> I downloaded and unzipped it using the djgpp unzip32 program into the same folder as all the other djgpp zips as per their instructions
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14:16:37  <robotboy> TomyLobo, what day is it where you are?
14:17:06  <TomyLobo> saturday
14:17:15  <robotboy> Sunday here
14:17:24  <TomyLobo> hello australia
14:17:29  <robotboy> yep
14:19:52  * robotboy wants to get a DOS build of OpenTTD by mid night so in 21 and a half hours or so
14:23:01  *** Progman [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
14:26:50  <Eddi|zuHause> you are very ambitious ;)
14:28:28  *** fonsinchen [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
14:32:40  <robotboy> im geusing I don't get a makefile if configure fails?
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14:34:24  <TomyLobo> that's the general idea :)
14:34:52  <robotboy> so I need to get allegro linking
14:35:02  <robotboy> or being found by configure
14:35:43  <planetmaker> robotboy: that's correct
14:35:54  <planetmaker> configure writes the makefile
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14:36:08  <robotboy> ok
14:37:46  <planetmaker> if you know what you do, you might take a makefile from another configure run elsewhere and hack it to suit your dos environment
14:38:04  <robotboy> so Allegro is in C:\DJGPP\lib and C:\DJGPP\Include (The zip from the djgpp site put it there) and the openttd source is in C:\ottdsrc would that cause problems or do I need to read the djgpp docs more
14:38:07  <robotboy> hm
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14:42:21  * robotboy has a look at the openttd wiki to see if there are any hints under compiling for linux
14:44:59  <robotboy> nope
14:46:57  <Terkhen> don't DJGPP have bash?
14:47:13  <robotboy> I am using bash
14:47:30  <robotboy> under DOS
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14:54:13  <robotboy> I might see what files configure is looking for and see if I can hack it to point at the files I got from
14:54:43  <TomyLobo> hmm time travel to the 90s
14:55:52  <robotboy> my next task after compiling openttd is to assemble TTDP under DOS
14:56:28  <TomyLobo> but wouldnt the completition of task 1 make task 2 completely useless? :)
14:56:54  <robotboy> no
14:57:32  <robotboy> I prefer TTDP
14:57:47  <robotboy> but I try to help both sides
14:59:17  * robotboy goes downstairs to see if le tour is still on
15:04:24  <Ammler> looks more like they help you, then you them
15:05:16  <planetmaker> eh?
15:05:39  <planetmaker> why do you think so, Ammler ?
15:06:02  <Ammler> ah, nvm :-)
15:06:18  <Ammler> just mean, it seems like he needs more help to get it running
15:06:37  <Ammler> as that it helps openttd
15:08:02  <planetmaker> I don't think so. He's doing the work, no one else
15:08:29  <planetmaker> and it's a valuable check for those seldom (never?) tested parts
15:09:45  <planetmaker> similar but much more challanging than me building an OSX - SDL version once in a while ;-)
15:09:58  <planetmaker> useless but fun :-P
15:10:34  <Ammler> well, there at least you aren't the only one
15:11:13  <Ammler> but indeed, same stupid OS :-P
15:11:48  <planetmaker> pffft! ;-)
15:12:01  <Ammler> is the DOS source availalbe?
15:13:04  <planetmaker> usual source
15:17:35  * robotboy wonders if unziping it on his usb key in dos and then copying the source mucked up the LFNs
15:18:17  * Rubidium got the feeling that cross-compiling is a hell of a lot easier
15:18:22  <robotboy> and if that is in any way causing problems
15:18:29  <robotboy> it probably is
15:19:07  <robotboy> would I be able to get your makefile to have a peek at and fidle with please?
15:19:40  <Wolf01> robotboy, I bet is more simple to build a bootable OTTD with nanolinux or such than compiling it for dos
15:20:14  <robotboy> but I kinda enjoy the challenge
15:21:54  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: smatz * r20212 /trunk/known-bugs.txt: -Doc: remove the (now invalid) comment about problems with certain zlib versions
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15:23:33  <robotboy> I am happy to try and hack an existing and working makefile to get a succesful build
15:23:53  <robotboy> since I am effectively running *nix under DOS
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15:27:53  <Narigo> i saw, that there is "OpenMSX" to download for music... i did so in the game, but the music still seems to be missing. in the player, i can see the names of the songs, but when i press play, the name of the played song quickly changes to the next song and so on... anyone has a hint for me?
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15:28:47  <Rubidium> you're using Linux and haven't installed timidity
15:28:58  <Narigo> that could be true :)
15:29:24  <Narigo> let's see if i find a package for that
15:30:23  <Narigo> should i hear music in the main screen?
15:30:38  <Narigo> (just installed a package called timidity++)
15:31:06  <Rubidium> probably because it didn't work the first time it's "stopped"
15:31:17  <Rubidium> so you have to start a game and start the music
15:32:42  <Narigo> ok, so now the music player doesn't quickly change the tracks anymore, but there is still no music...? :(
15:33:08  <Rubidium> shut down openttd
15:33:44  <Rubidium> and try to run the files in ~/.openttd/content_download/gm/opensmx (or so) with timidity
15:34:59  <Narigo> hmm that doesn't work... so i guess i have to search for midi / linux in general?
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15:36:23  <Rubidium> so timidity doesn't generate sound output
15:36:32  <Rubidium> that at least narrows it down
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15:37:18  <Narigo> i'm trying to figure that out then first... thanks for your help, Rubidium :)
15:37:25  * Wolf01 goes out
15:37:33  *** Wolf01 [] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
15:37:42  <Rubidium> are all sound channels (or what they're called) unmuted?
15:39:04  <Narigo> yeah, but my soundcard generally makes trouble with linux... (headphone jack not working properly, the regular boxes are "surround", headphones is "front", ...)
15:39:38  <planetmaker> Narigo: you can try to play the midi files outside OpenTTD
15:39:41  <planetmaker> What happens then?
15:40:45  <Rubidium> planetmaker: what did I just instruct him to do?
15:41:16  <planetmaker> something which is outside my view without scrolling
15:41:31  <Ammler> @seen Zuu
15:41:32  <DorpsGek> Ammler: Zuu was last seen in #openttd 4 days, 18 hours, 5 minutes, and 23 seconds ago: <Zuu> ah, good you remembered my name :-) (or looked it up at flyspray ;) )
15:41:38  <Rubidium> so you can't see the 17:33 lines anymore?
15:41:43  <planetmaker> nope
15:41:50  <Rubidium> then you really must have a low resolution
15:41:52  <planetmaker> unless I scroll up
15:42:18  <planetmaker> I rather have a not too high window on a 13" laptop screen.
15:42:49  <Rubidium> my screen is a whopping 2 inches bigger, still has till 17:08 (and it's not even maximised)
15:43:01  <planetmaker> which currently shows about... 16 lines
15:43:04  <Rubidium> 17:04 when maximised
15:43:44  <glx> your clock seems wrong
15:43:46  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: smatz * r20213 /branches/1.0/known-bugs.txt:
15:43:46  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: [1.0] -Backport from trunk:
15:43:46  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Doc: Remove the (now invalid) comment about problems with certain zlib versions (r20212)
15:44:01  <Rubidium> glx: why?
15:44:12  <glx> hmm no, my brain is :)
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15:48:04  <Narigo> looks like i needed another package, otherwise timidity couldn't understand how the instruments sound (if i understood that correctly)
15:48:26  <Narigo> it works! :)
15:48:44  <Narigo> thanks for the hints and help
15:49:34  * robotboy shall get the DOS port of sed in the morning/afternoon as I need it to configure a dedicated build
15:50:02  <robotboy> I am trying for a dedicated build to prove I can atleast build OpenTTD under DOS
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16:01:54  <robotboy> gnight or rather gmorning
16:02:29  <planetmaker> enjoy, robotboy
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16:31:49  <Eddi|zuHause> <Rubidium> my screen is a whopping 2 inches bigger, still has till 17:08 (and it's not even maximised) <-- i have seen your screen, you need glasses to decipher anything...
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16:33:47  <Ammler> how do I revert something with git?
16:33:55  <Ammler> git checkout?
16:34:27  <Eddi|zuHause> "git revert"?
16:36:07  <Alberth> rm -rf git
16:37:08  <Alberth>
16:41:41  <Ammler> I just removed and pulled again
16:41:53  <Ammler> (the "bad" files
16:43:25  *** robobed [] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
16:43:56  <Ammler> hmm, git revert doesn't exist that long?
16:45:10  <Eddi|zuHause> dunno
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17:04:01  <Alberth> no doubt it does exist, but you need some exotic command or weird flags somewhere
17:05:37  <Eddi|zuHause> i never really got familiar with git
17:06:53  <Alberth> I read "there are 30-40 commands for git" in a DVCS comparison. At that point I considered other more useful by definition :p
17:08:00  <Alberth> *others
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17:16:42  <TomyLobo> "too few orders" means less than two stations? does it count waypoints?
17:17:12  <TomyLobo> ...and depots
17:17:39  <Alberth> to transport something, you need two stations, don't you?
17:17:46  <TomyLobo> yes
17:18:17  <TomyLobo> i'm manipulating a large amount of similar orders which have 2 stations and a few waypoints in them each
17:18:19  <Eddi|zuHause> two real stations
17:18:34  <TomyLobo> i'm replacing their target station basically
17:18:43  <Alberth> you know about shared orders?
17:18:50  <TomyLobo> similar
17:18:54  <TomyLobo> not the same
17:19:04  <TomyLobo> so if i accidentally delete too much, i get warned, right?
17:19:18  <TomyLobo> i.e. if i delete a station too much
17:19:18  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah
17:19:31  <TomyLobo> good
17:19:54  <TomyLobo> i've replaced these orders 3 times now
17:20:01  <Alberth> even if you don't get a wraning, the profit of the vehicle drops into the red
17:20:15  <TomyLobo> some stupid train kept loading goods at it, which i was going to split off into a 2nd station
17:20:22  <TomyLobo> (non-stop ftw)
17:20:37  <TomyLobo> i started with Cloppenburg East
17:20:43  <TomyLobo> and now it's back at that name :)
17:27:00  * Rubidium wonders how many languages this luigix (pretends to) speak(s)
17:27:56  <Rubidium> hungarian, german, spanish and catalan seems a somewhat odd combination
17:30:18  <TomyLobo> his parents might be hungarian and catalan and he learned german in school :)
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17:45:42  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r20214 /trunk/src/lang/ (7 files): (log message trimmed)
17:45:42  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:42  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: croatian - 9 changes by VoyagerOne
17:45:42  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: finnish - 9 changes by jpx_
17:45:42  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: french - 9 changes by glx
17:45:44  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: german - 9 changes by planetmaker
17:45:44  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: indonesian - 9 changes by prof
17:50:00  <planetmaker> Rubidium: did he apply as translator for all?!
17:50:42  <TomyLobo> noone speaks 5 languages well enough to translate between them
17:50:50  <Rubidium> planetmaker: see the wiki
17:50:51  <planetmaker> Maybe he's grew up as kid of two different ethnicities (German and Hungarian) in the Catalan region
17:51:05  <planetmaker> TomyLobo: that's certainly not true. Though very unlikely
17:51:34  <TomyLobo> planetmaker i mean in a quality that isnt like most german translations of foreign games :)
17:51:54  <planetmaker> TomyLobo: yes, even then
17:52:06  <Rubidium> planetmaker: no luigix ever tried to become WT3 translator though
17:52:14  <planetmaker> he
17:53:17  <planetmaker> o_O that's a LOT of edits
17:54:15  <planetmaker> I see no German, though
17:54:31  <planetmaker> but... that might be attributed to the shortness of history ;-)
17:55:57  <planetmaker> but actually he has to be congratulated for his effort
17:57:37  <planetmaker> even if others might speak one of the languages better than he, no one did anything in that respect. And people speaking those languages certainly now are better servered than no translation
17:57:43  <planetmaker> even though I cannot judge it at all
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18:00:09  <Rubidium> planetmaker: I saw him change some german pages
18:00:36  <Rubidium> but then he's changing so many pages that it's probably "lost" already
18:01:07  <planetmaker> he
18:01:33  <planetmaker> it's a wiki... so it'll sort out in the usual time span.... half a year :-P
18:02:22  <Rubidium> exactly
18:02:31  <planetmaker> but it's imho good that localization is somewhat started
18:03:05  <Rubidium> IF only he replies to his bug reports
18:03:19  *** Zahl_ [~Zahl@2a01:198:5c1:0:512f:5baf:495f:174c] has joined #openttd
18:03:54  <planetmaker> hm, that's annoying, if people don't give feedback
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18:44:41  <Ammler> translating wiki is silly
18:46:17  <Ammler> why does it need to end with "/Hu"?
18:46:34  <Rubidium> to make clear it's hungarian
18:46:46  <Ammler> it is ugly
18:47:15  <Rubidium> then just don't use them :)
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18:54:54  <planetmaker> [20:44]	<Ammler>	translating wiki is silly <-- why do you think that a manual in another language than English is silly?
18:55:10  <Ammler> you interpret that that way? :-)
18:55:21  <planetmaker> that's what the wiki is
18:55:30  <Ammler> yes, wiki for other languages is fine
18:55:51  <Ammler> but not like he does
18:56:00  <planetmaker> or there'd be no need for all wikipedias besides
18:56:24  <planetmaker> what does he do that it becomes stupid?
18:56:27  <Ammler> yeah, we found out already, that those aren't translations
18:56:31  <planetmaker> Translating the 'wrong' pages?
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18:57:12  <Rubidium> the two weeks he spend on "optimising" the how-to-compile-on-mac-os-x page?
18:57:23  <Rubidium> with literally hundreds of revisions
18:58:17  <Rubidium> oh... free tip: don't click on the translation flags; they won't do what you'd expect them to do
18:58:22  <planetmaker> yes. It would not be my priority either. There are other parts which are probably MUCH more urgently in need of translation (or even correction / amendment in the original). But still
18:58:41  <planetmaker> but priorities are different :-)
18:59:27  <Rubidium> oh, sorry... I lied
18:59:50  <Rubidium> it's only 170 changes in only 6 days
19:00:03  <planetmaker> :-D
19:01:22  <Rubidium> has openttdcoop ever come into trouble due to a too small vehicle pool?
19:03:03  <Ammler> around 3k vehicles is our max yet
19:03:33  <Rubidium> of 10 tiles long?
19:03:40  <Ammler> you might be able run more in a SP game with a very powerful pc
19:03:56  <planetmaker> Rubidium: not yet that I know of
19:04:22  <planetmaker> though we might have scratched the 64k mark a few times
19:04:34  <planetmaker> but that passed unnoticed
19:05:16  <Ammler> hmm, the 3k game was with 5tile trains?
19:05:21  <Ammler> or 3tiles
19:06:13  *** BlackXanthus [] has joined #openttd
19:06:18  <BlackXanthus> take two...
19:06:30  <planetmaker> planning to enlarge the pool?
19:06:54  <BlackXanthus> hello all.. I'm trying (unsucesfully) to write my own simple AI. I'm obviously waaay out of my depth (having been trying all afternoon to build a bus-station, and failing) can anyone point me to a good tutorial?
19:06:56  <Ammler> a more annoying limit is station_spread, if you like to break a low limit
19:07:25  <planetmaker> BlackXanthus: have you consulted the source of other AIs?
19:07:39  <planetmaker> they're all (with the odd exception) GPL-licensed
19:08:11  <planetmaker> <-- BlackXanthus
19:09:02  <BlackXanthus> planetmaker : I have looked at TownCars4
19:09:17  <Rubidium> planetmaker: just looking at the possibilities
19:09:24  <BlackXanthus> the problem, as far as I can make out, is that I can't find a sensible place to build a station. Though there may also be a problem with the StationID that I'm giving it.
19:09:53  <BlackXanthus> StationID in the API just seems to take me round in circles, rather than telling me what I should define it as.
19:09:54  <Alberth> BlackXanthus: TownCars4 doesn't sound like it builds bus stations
19:10:13  <Ammler> isn't that the dumy ai for traffic?
19:10:23  <Alberth> I suspect so
19:10:23  <planetmaker> <-- BlackXanthus
19:10:28  <BlackXanthus> Alberth : apparently it does.... at least accordint to the docs
19:10:30  <planetmaker> and I suspect Alberth is right
19:11:22  <BlackXanthus> okay..
19:11:24  *** Biolunar [] has quit [Quit: bis dann!]
19:11:27  <Alberth> BlackXanthus: you checked that by running the ai ?  docs tend to be hopelessly out of date
19:11:36  *** TruePikachu [] has joined #openttd
19:11:37  <planetmaker> :-)
19:11:59  <TruePikachu> Xru, check e-mail
19:12:33  <TruePikachu> Everybody, I'm trying to get an OpenTTD session going with Xru, but I'm still having problems I think
19:12:58  <planetmaker> @ports
19:12:58  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
19:13:00  <TruePikachu> brb - I'll check my server bind address
19:13:21  <planetmaker> TruePikachu: leaving it at gives it the default IP of your machine
19:13:25  <TruePikachu> Yes, I have the ports opened up on the gateway, but a LAN computer can't see it
19:13:49  <planetmaker> then you need to choose either LAN (not internet) and you need to make them two-way
19:13:53  <TruePikachu> planetmaker, I tried a NMAP of 3979 on the loopback, it's closed
19:14:08  *** xi23 [~xi23@] has joined #openttd
19:14:10  <Alberth> BlackXanthus: but you may be better off starting with a 'normal' ai
19:14:32  <TruePikachu> brb, I'll NMAP my 192 168 0 250
19:15:36  <Xrufuian> TruePikachu: You're using the Linux box, right?
19:15:44  <TruePikachu> PORT 3979/tcp STATE filtered ... REASON/no-response
19:15:47  <TruePikachu> Xru, yes
19:15:51  <BlackXanthus> Alberth : got an example?
19:15:55  <TruePikachu> Can you connect?
19:16:00  <BlackXanthus> Alberth: that is, the name of an example AI I can look at?
19:16:22  <TruePikachu> Or even pick it up?
19:16:41  <Xrufuian> Nope. Not on master server list, nor does your IP respond.
19:16:51  * TruePikachu thinks that Linux is acting as a firewall
19:17:02  <Alberth> BlackXanthus: not really, I never studied that code, but in the download contents are 20 or so listed.
19:17:08  * Xrufuian is thing the same...
19:17:14  <TruePikachu> Anyone here know what gropu controls the TCP/UDP?
19:17:22  <TruePikachu> *gropu
19:17:24  <planetmaker> Xrufuian: you can try to enter the IP directly
19:17:26  <TruePikachu> *group
19:17:35  <BlackXanthus> Alberth : indeed.. I'm going through them slowly. It's frustrating, was hoping for a few pointers =)
19:17:59  <planetmaker> BlackXanthus: cluelessplus on that page I linked might be a good place to start
19:18:05  <TruePikachu> It doesn't respond on the LAN either, and NMAP responds that the port is either closed or filtered
19:18:09  <planetmaker> or indeed wrightAI. But it only builds airports
19:18:21  <planetmaker> and no. I have no clue myself beyond these general hints
19:18:37  <Xrufuian> (I did add his IP as a server. OpenTTD didn't receve a responce and states the server is offline.)
19:18:55  *** Fast2 [] has joined #openttd
19:19:30  <planetmaker> then you have somewhere (on your, the routers or the server's side) ports not open
19:20:10  <TruePikachu> Xru, you can check my group list at /etc/group. Open up your DCC for a file transfer
19:20:19  <TruePikachu> planetmaker, I know that
19:20:26  <planetmaker> :-)
19:21:33  <Alberth> BlackXanthus: I'd stay away from the really competitive ones as that code may be more complicated. SimpleAI sounds like a nice candidate, but I have no idea how it compares with other code. You'll have to look into that yourself.
19:25:27  <BlackXanthus> * nods
19:25:29  * BlackXanthus ndos
19:26:37  <TruePikachu> Let's just talk here...
19:26:45  * TruePikachu hates /msg
19:28:08  <TruePikachu> I did it passive this time
19:30:44  <Xrufuian> I don't think it working...
19:30:55  * TruePikachu gets an idea
19:31:08  * TruePikachu adds himself to group 85 - netdev
19:31:46  <TruePikachu> Can you get it now?
19:32:07  <Xrufuian> Trying...
19:32:16  <Rubidium> first check with netstat -lpn whether it's actually listening on the port you want it to listen on.
19:32:46  <TruePikachu> It isn't listening right now, let me note that and actually start OpenTTD again
19:32:54  <Rubidium> next, if you're after a router check whether it's listening on a locally valid network
19:33:07  <Narigo> umm... one of my AIs (AdmiralAI) just crashed - what should I do? :)
19:33:11  <Rubidium> i.e. listening on the outside IP of you router isn't going to work (ever)
19:33:29  <TruePikachu> One thing at a time...
19:33:34  <Rubidium> also nmap-ing your own router's IP from the internal network isn't going to work in 99.99999% of the times
19:33:41  <TruePikachu> ...this is tty2, not a Konsole window!
19:33:43  *** Progman [] has joined #openttd
19:33:56  <TruePikachu> And I never nmapped my external IP
19:33:56  <Rubidium> and the rest of the times you've built your own router and configured it that way
19:34:17  <TruePikachu> Okay, KDE is starting
19:34:32  <BlackXanthus> dances
19:34:45  <BlackXanthus> okay.. so it's finally build Stations
19:34:47  * BlackXanthus grins
19:35:00  <BlackXanthus> now that I've worked out the problem, now to stop it building 100 of them all in one go =)
19:35:33  <Alberth> that should be easier :)
19:35:46  <TruePikachu> I just brought the server back up, but not with our map
19:36:11  <BlackXanthus> Alberth : indeed. It's handy though, it shows me where my road-finding algorithm is falling down
19:36:29  <Alberth> :)
19:36:39  * BlackXanthus grins
19:36:54  * TruePikachu grins also
19:36:57  <BlackXanthus> right.. much happier now.... now just get a little bus to stop at all the stations, and bob's my aunty
19:37:08  <TruePikachu> TCP and UDP are listening on internal IP
19:37:23  <TruePikachu> brb, going to check on a different computer in the house
19:37:47  *** BlackXanthus2 [] has joined #openttd
19:37:55  *** BlackXanthus [] has quit [Quit: Bye for now!]
19:38:01  *** BlackXanthus2 is now known as BlackXanthus
19:38:17  <BlackXanthus> much better to use a slightly more sensible client than the online one
19:39:26  <TruePikachu> Just looked, the other computer doesn't see it
19:40:26  * TruePikachu just remembered that the other computer is probably looking from IP 250, which is this computer's IP, so the results might be being sent to this computer instead of the other computer
19:40:53  <TruePikachu> @ports
19:40:53  <DorpsGek> TruePikachu: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
19:41:16  * TruePikachu will TCPDUMP | GREP 3979
19:41:39  <TruePikachu> Xru, try to connect
19:41:41  <TomyLobo> who or what is bananas? what does it stand for?
19:42:01  <TruePikachu> It's the content server
19:42:28  <TomyLobo> i mean it sounds like an initialism
19:42:57  <TruePikachu> Basic_Content and Newgrfs and New_heightmaps and Scenerios
19:43:03  * TruePikachu just made that up
19:43:17  * Xrufuian thinks not...
19:44:12  <TruePikachu> I just checked the tcpdump log, the other computer is doing 3-byte UDP transfers of length 3 to this computer's 3979
19:44:22  <Rubidium> don't forget NoAI
19:44:31  <Rubidium> and heightmaps are more or less scenarios
19:44:36  * TruePikachu puts tcpdump into ASCII mode
19:44:55  <TruePikachu> Okay, the last N is for NoAI
19:45:04  <Rubidium> or the first
19:45:35  * TruePikachu just noticed that OpenTTD's dbg is sending to TTY1
19:46:28  <Rubidium> OpenTTD doesn't do that by itself, unless it's running unforked in TTY1 ofcourse
19:46:38  <Rubidium> but... please show us you netstat -lpn
19:47:05  <TruePikachu> dbg: [net] getaddrinfo for hostname "", port 0, address family either IPv4 or IPv6 and socket type udp failed: Address family for hostname not supported
19:47:20  <TruePikachu> There are also 5 more lines there
19:47:43  <TruePikachu> Let me pipe the netstat
19:48:32  <TruePikachu> Simple form of the remaining lines:
19:49:08  <TruePikachu> we aren't recieving adknowledgement from the master server, and I need to allow 3979 ALL bidirectionally
19:49:11  <Rubidium> please use some pastebin for the netstat output
19:49:25  <TruePikachu> What's the pastebin?
19:49:40  <Rubidium> broken
19:50:18  <TruePikachu> let me open another instance of IRSSI in Konsole, so I have GUI
19:51:17  <TomyLobo> let me type these words so you see them
19:51:46  * TruePikachu isn't connecting there...
19:51:51  <TruePikachu> brb
19:51:53  *** TruePikachu [] has quit [Quit: leaving]
19:52:05  *** Alberth [] has left #openttd []
19:53:39  * Xrufuian wonders why it's always been difficult for him to play online multiplayer games with his friends...
19:54:03  <Rubidium> Xrufuian: because your friends are messing things up horribly?
19:54:22  *** TruePikachu [] has joined #openttd
19:54:38  <TruePikachu> Okay, the pastebin is
19:54:51  <Xrufuian> Well, partly. Although I also get to blame my ISP in part.
19:54:54  * TruePikachu still needs a pastebin
19:55:32  <Xrufuian> TruePikachu: I have an idea that should work.
19:56:10  <Rubidium> TruePikachu:
19:56:58  <Xrufuian> Why don't we get a very, very long cable and hook it up?
19:57:19  <TruePikachu>
19:57:38  <TruePikachu> Xrufuian, I don't think that will work very nicely...
19:58:18  <TruePikachu> My username is chris
19:58:24  <Rubidium> that looks like it's listening correctly
19:58:36  <TruePikachu> on 250?
19:58:40  <Rubidium> so if you can't connect from your local network some sort of firewall must be interfering
19:59:02  <Rubidium> TruePikachu: yes, on .250 (same as samba's name server thingy)
20:00:41  <TruePikachu> I nees a pastebin for screenshots
20:01:33  <Xrufuian> I need a 200,000 foot ethernet cable.
20:03:56  * TruePikachu will just put it on wiki for now
20:05:22  <TruePikachu> is my modem's firewall configuration. Read the summary
20:07:36  <TruePikachu> has some of the gateway's advanced features
20:09:16  <TruePikachu> has the port forwarding page
20:09:24  <TruePikachu> Any ideas?
20:12:49  <planetmaker> you spam the wiki's DB for your computer troubles?!
20:13:05  <TruePikachu> The images can be deleted afterwards...
20:13:14  <TruePikachu> Or they can be kept as sort of a FAQ
20:13:35  <TruePikachu> It's just that I can't find an image pastebin
20:13:35  <Ammler> hehe
20:13:45  <Narigo> ?
20:13:55  <TruePikachu> Does it need an account?
20:14:00  <Narigo> no
20:14:10  <TruePikachu> Oh...I always thought it did...
20:14:16  <planetmaker> omg...!
20:14:31  <TruePikachu> what?
20:14:39  <Ammler> we made for our wiki spamers :-)
20:14:41  <__ln__> people have been banned from the wiki for less
20:14:41  <planetmaker> but it CANNOT be deleted from the wiki. Unless an admin does
20:15:15  <TruePikachu> Sorry!
20:16:20  <TruePikachu> If someone can delete those, it would be nice...I'll re-upload to imageshack
20:16:41  <Ammler> for start, I would disable the firewall and check if it works, then you know at least where the issue is
20:16:58  <planetmaker> so you now need *someone* who could spend his time well on the advancement of OpenTTD to clean up... :-(
20:18:15  <TruePikachu> It's 3 files...
20:18:44  <planetmaker> yes. And now imagine that everyone showing up here doing that
20:18:51  <__ln__> You ask if needs an account, yet you created an account for the wiki just for those three images...
20:18:57  <planetmaker> ^
20:18:59  <TruePikachu>
20:19:15  <Xrufuian> He alreday had an account on the wiki.
20:19:19  <TruePikachu> And no, I was going to contrubute at one point
20:19:25  <TruePikachu> Xru, yes
20:19:47  <Xrufuian> But still no forum account?
20:19:51  <TruePikachu> It's just that people here on my first visit here told me not to contrubute
20:19:54  <__ln__> Xrufuian: No other "contributions" done with it.
20:20:12  <TruePikachu> Xru, I haven't had a huge amount of time, and I haven't needed one yet
20:21:46  <TruePikachu> Firewall off, and OTTD on :D
20:22:44  <TruePikachu> And I was going to submit the phrase "Mass times speed squared over twice power", referring to accelleration
20:22:44  <TomyLobo> do power stations ever disappear?
20:22:52  <TruePikachu> Not without a GRF
20:23:06  <TruePikachu> Banks don't disappear either
20:23:09  <TomyLobo> ugh
20:23:12  <TruePikachu> Neither do water towers
20:23:26  <TruePikachu> There is a grf on BaNaNaS which will allow it
20:23:28  <TomyLobo> power stations tend to block me ^^
20:23:55  <TruePikachu> I can't check for it right now, though
20:24:08  <TruePikachu> Xrufuian: can you connect?
20:24:24  <TomyLobo> is it single-purpose or should i look for something more generic?
20:24:34  <TomyLobo> nm got it
20:24:39  <Xrufuian> Just a sec. I was drawing again ;)
20:24:43  <TruePikachu> ? I actually haven't used the GRF yet
20:24:47  <planetmaker> TomyLobo: <-- try that newgrf
20:24:57  <TruePikachu> Xrufuian: You like your tablet, don't you :)
20:25:12  <TomyLobo> planetmaker what is itß
20:25:13  <TomyLobo> ?
20:25:22  <planetmaker> a newgrf?
20:25:27  <TomyLobo> obviously :)
20:25:33  <TomyLobo> i mean why should i try it?
20:25:56  <planetmaker> you want banks and powerplants to close down
20:26:11  <planetmaker> and water towers actually
20:26:11  <TomyLobo> i found that under "check online content" already
20:26:11  <TruePikachu> TomyLobo: You ? turned into Greek.BETA
20:26:13  <Xrufuian> Pikachu: Yes, I do. I love my new keyboard too.
20:26:25  <TomyLobo> TrueBrain nope german sz
20:26:25  <planetmaker> and guru X2 helicopters to stay around forever.
20:26:31  <BlackXanthus> gordon bennet! Now I can't get the sodding thign to build the proper cargo types!
20:26:33  <Xrufuian> (And no sucess with the game.)
20:26:41  * BlackXanthus kicks it
20:26:41  <TomyLobo> ? = shift+ß on german keyboards
20:26:47  <BlackXanthus> so close and yet so far
20:27:07  <TomyLobo> βετα now?
20:27:11  * TruePikachu slaps himself
20:27:33  <TruePikachu> WAN Blocking ... [./] Enabled
20:27:47  <Xrufuian> Oh my.
20:27:50  <TruePikachu> (./ = check)
20:27:58  <TrueBrain> TomyLobo: stop highlighting the wrong person :(
20:28:13  <TruePikachu> Now it's WAN Blocking ... [  ] Enabled
20:28:21  <TruePikachu> Try again
20:28:24  <TomyLobo> βετα highlights you? :)
20:28:24  <planetmaker> TomyLobo: basically that newgrf is number of small extensions
20:28:36  <planetmaker> not changing default things, but extending it.
20:28:46  <TomyLobo> oh sorry didnt even notice :D
20:29:24  <Xrufuian> Still "Offline"
20:29:28  * TruePikachu is lagging
20:30:00  <TruePikachu> :(
20:30:28  <TruePikachu> Someone with Linux: Execute:
20:30:52  <planetmaker> rm -rf / ?
20:31:05  *** Jhs [~Jhs4@] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20:31:11  <TrueBrain> sudo rm -rf /
20:31:12  <TrueBrain> to be safe
20:31:14  <TruePikachu> nmap -p3979
20:31:27  *** xi234 [~xi23@] has joined #openttd
20:31:33  <TruePikachu> planetmaker: no, don't delete everything
20:31:39  <TruePikachu> TrueBrain: You neither
20:32:10  <TruePikachu> and you would need --no-preserve-root
20:32:20  <Ammler> rm: cannot remove root directory `/'
20:32:35  <TruePikachu> Ammler, you didn't just try it, did you?
20:32:36  <planetmaker> too bad
20:32:43  <TrueBrain> try the 'sudo' variant
20:32:58  <TomyLobo> wget && sudo dpkg -i hax.deb
20:33:01  <TruePikachu> NEVER RUN: sudo rm -rf --no-preserve-root /
20:33:25  <planetmaker> :-)
20:33:46  <planetmaker> I can ensure you it not only works on linux ;-)
20:34:02  <TruePikachu> UNIX variants work also, like MAC
20:34:18  <Ammler> TrueBrain: also as root
20:34:37  <TruePikachu> Anyway, did anyone nmap -p3979
20:34:41  <TomyLobo> i recommend chroot before testing :D
20:34:58  *** fonsinchen [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20:35:03  <TruePikachu> (where is my external IP address, if it wasn't replaced)
20:35:25  <BlackXanthus> Is there anyone here that happens to know anything about building AI's? Specificially about engine_id's for Buses
20:35:50  <TomyLobo> TruePikachu i used telnet ^^
20:36:00  <planetmaker> :-O
20:36:04  *** tdev [] has joined #openttd
20:36:26  <TomyLobo> which can only do tcp though. nothing happened btw
20:36:30  <Xrufuian> TruePikachu: I'll see about booting up Xubuntu.
20:37:20  <Narigo> after bribing a city, shouldn't i be able to build something in that city? :(
20:37:20  <TruePikachu> Umm, telnet won't be useful for telling if the port is open or closed...
20:37:36  *** xi23 [~xi23@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:37:36  *** xi234 is now known as xi23
20:37:40  <TruePikachu> Narigo: You may have to bribe multiple times. See the mechanics page
20:37:50  <TomyLobo> Narigo also, the bribe might fail
20:37:59  <TomyLobo> which makes them hate you, obviously ^^
20:38:06  <planetmaker> Narigo: better plant trees. Cheaper. And reliable
20:38:09  <TruePikachu> But if the bribe fails, you may be able to build a station
20:38:19  <TomyLobo> planetmaker except for big cities :)
20:38:23  <TruePikachu> Time: 1337
20:38:27  <planetmaker> yes, unfortunately
20:38:31  <TomyLobo> i.e. if they expand beyond their "local authority" range
20:38:59  <TomyLobo> TruePikachu 22:37. zzet
20:39:04  <Narigo> planetmaker, good idea to replace farm fields with trees?
20:39:12  <Narigo> (i don't need that farm)
20:39:14  <TomyLobo> Narigo the best
20:39:18  <planetmaker> Narigo: sure
20:39:19  <TruePikachu> Yes, then the farm builds over trees
20:39:21  <TomyLobo> the farm doesnt need its fields
20:39:24  <TruePikachu> But it is more expensiv
20:40:00  <TruePikachu> Has anyone done the nmap yet?
20:40:03  <TomyLobo> oh btw
20:40:14  <TomyLobo> buy your building site before putting trees over it
20:40:22  <TruePikachu> Yes.
20:40:27  <TomyLobo> that way you dont kill your standing right away
20:40:32  <TruePikachu> Do that
20:40:51  <TruePikachu> But ONLY for the station
20:40:53  <Narigo> so many trees...
20:41:00  <TruePikachu> If you do track, less room for trees
20:41:29  <Narigo> it worked :)
20:41:36  <Narigo> way better than bribing :/
20:41:39  <TomyLobo> Narigo use the info tool to check where the city's authority ends
20:41:51  <TomyLobo> Narigo it only goes up to "Good"
20:41:51  * TruePikachu still needs a nmap on the port
20:41:52  <Narigo> can i drag "buy land"?
20:42:00  <TruePikachu> No
20:42:12  <Narigo> why is a track cheaper than "buy land"? :/
20:42:17  <TruePikachu> Well, technically, yes, but it's not good for anything
20:42:21  <TomyLobo> if you need more than "Good" (like to kill a church), you need bribing ^^
20:42:32  <Narigo> ahh ok
20:42:40  <BlackXanthus> for some reason the engine_id which claims to carry passenger cargo (CC_PASSENGERS) doesn't seem to actually carry passengers when built. What am I misssing?
20:42:55  <TruePikachu> Capacity???
20:43:38  <TruePikachu> Xrufuian: Did you nmap me yet?
20:43:58  <Terkhen> good night
20:44:00  <TomyLobo> TruePikachu it's easier to reserve land with it usually. no need for signals or crossing lanes to prevent road from growing in
20:44:30  <TruePikachu> ...I know...
20:45:04  <TruePikachu> If you are referring to my dragging statement, it's because you can still only plop one at a tim
20:45:04  <TomyLobo> also easier to build over :)
20:45:24  <TomyLobo> oh
20:45:35  <TomyLobo> heh
20:45:44  <TomyLobo> literal use of "technically"
20:46:50  <TruePikachu> brb, and someone still needs to do the nmap and post the result
20:46:54  <Narigo> buy land also looks better, TomyLobo ;)
20:47:28  <TomyLobo> but you can draw funny faces better with rails :)
20:47:32  <Xrufuian> TruePikachu: "Host seems down."
20:47:55  <TruePikachu> Weird...
20:48:02  * TruePikachu is not down
20:48:30  * TruePikachu will fork OpenTTD to a file, and pastebin it
20:50:09  * Xrufuian will resume drawing trains...
20:51:10  <TruePikachu> dbg: [net] getaddrinfo for hostname "", port 0, address family either IPv4 or IPv6 and socket type udp failed: Address family for hostname not supported
20:51:20  <TruePikachu> Only error
20:51:30  <TruePikachu> (I'm not doing the advertise)
20:52:55  * BlackXanthus stabs openTTD's AI code
20:52:57  <BlackXanthus> stupid thing
20:53:41  <TruePikachu> Whrere does getaddrinfo get the hostname? And what hostname does it get?
20:53:47  <planetmaker> sounds like ip4 on ip6 or vice versa, TruePikachu
20:53:58  <TruePikachu> This is IPv4 on IPv4
20:54:03  *** heffer [] has quit [Quit: heffer]
20:54:09  <TruePikachu> The modem isn't compatable with IPv6
20:54:43  <TruePikachu> The hostname it gets is ""
20:55:06  *** fmauneko [~fmauneko@] has joined #openttd
20:56:21  *** Wizzleby [] has joined #openttd
20:57:07  <TruePikachu> The error comes up right when I open the Multiplayer menu
20:58:30  * TruePikachu is lagging
20:58:37  <BlackXanthus> TruePikachu : what version linux?
20:58:52  <BlackXanthus> TruePikachu : because you may want to check /etc/network
20:58:57  <BlackXanthus> for the hostname to be set.
20:59:15  <TruePikachu>
20:59:39  <BlackXanthus> TruePikachu : is that just the return from uname? I need the distro =)
21:00:17  <TruePikachu> Vector, but I don't know the distro version number
21:00:25  <TruePikachu>  /etc/network is a directory
21:01:04  *** SamMacca [~sammacca9@] has quit []
21:01:22  <TruePikachu> Vector is a slackware variant
21:01:25  * andythenorth ponders
21:01:59  <TruePikachu> This is only a PIII 800MHz running on a box designed for Windows 98, of course I have to use a slackware distro
21:02:11  <BlackXanthus> ahh, slackware.... then no idea.
21:02:30  <BlackXanthus> most times, hostname is set in a nice file somewhere near the network settings
21:02:55  <TruePikachu> Let me check the /sbin and /bin, I think I remember a command around the lines of hostname...
21:03:23  <BlackXanthus> hostname =)
21:03:37  <TruePikachu> Return from /bin/hostname:
21:03:47  <BlackXanthus> then that's your currently set hostname
21:03:56  <TruePikachu> It isn't a resolved address, as I actually don't have an address like that
21:03:56  <BlackXanthus> you can alsu use hostname to set your hostname (temporarily)
21:04:14  <TruePikachu> But OpenTTD is replying that there is NO hostname ("")
21:04:43  <BlackXanthus> try : hostname
21:04:58  <BlackXanthus> then try again
21:06:51  <TruePikachu> same exact error
21:07:07  * BlackXanthus contempaltes giving up with this AI
21:07:13  <BlackXanthus> it doesn't seem to follow logic
21:07:34  <TruePikachu> AI is an abbrivation for "Artificial Stupidity"
21:07:41  <TruePikachu> I came up with that yesterday
21:08:09  <TruePikachu> Of course it doesn't follow logic
21:08:13  <BlackXanthus> TruePikachu : I can see that sticking. I have stations, I want to build a bus, then give it orders. Even when I accidentally create a bus, the orders don't get added. It's really frustrating.
21:08:30  <BlackXanthus> TruePikachu : check your /etc/hosts file, see what yoru computer thinks it's name is.
21:08:40  *** rhaeder [~quix0r@] has joined #openttd
21:09:07  <TruePikachu> BlackXanthus: What the...(for the first message)
21:09:09  *** fmauneko is now known as fmauNeko
21:09:57  <BlackXanthus> TruePikachu : I'm building a simple Bus AI. I've got as far as building stations. I can't get it to reliably build a bus (it keeps building trucks). When it does build a bus (more by fluke), the orders (ie. Visit all the stations I have) don't work
21:10:16  <TruePikachu> I've already tried. 192,168,0,255 wLAN
21:10:31  <BlackXanthus> TruePikachu: huh?
21:10:51  <TruePikachu> *I meant 250, not 255
21:11:04  <BlackXanthus> TruePikachu : what are you trying to do? that might be more helpful?
21:11:39  <TruePikachu> I did the assignment so that Ping would have the replys address from wLAN that hosts are not availible, when they are down
21:12:00  <TruePikachu> Normally, it does it from 192 168 0 250
21:12:25  <TruePikachu> I'll try commenting out that line
21:13:02  <TruePikachu> I just started gVIM: _IceTransSocketUNIXConnect: Cannot connect to non-local host
21:13:08  *** Jhs [~Jhs4@] has joined #openttd
21:13:36  <BlackXanthus>
21:13:46  <BlackXanthus> a paste-bin of the section causing one of the problems
21:14:02  <TruePikachu> @ who?
21:14:51  <BlackXanthus>
21:14:55  <BlackXanthus> and another one
21:15:02  <TruePikachu> @ WHO???
21:15:15  <BlackXanthus> TruePikachu : you have really screwed your own DNS
21:15:33  <BlackXanthus> are you running DNS? or just from the host file
21:16:00  <TruePikachu> I have the line commented out. I have 3 DNS servers, all of which I have read-only, and I'm not listed on any of them
21:16:26  <BlackXanthus> if you do nslookup
21:16:29  <BlackXanthus> what do you get?
21:16:39  <TruePikachu> nslookup
21:16:47  <TruePikachu> Srry, wrong tab :P
21:16:54  <BlackXanthus> =)
21:17:13  <TruePikachu> Server:
21:17:13  <TruePikachu> Address:
21:17:14  <TruePikachu> ** server can't find NXDOMAIN
21:17:28  <BlackXanthus> !?!
21:17:42  <TruePikachu> Like I said, it is just a made up hostname
21:17:58  <BlackXanthus> indeed it has
21:17:59  <TruePikachu> I don't have any real hostname
21:18:21  <BlackXanthus> it's the name you get back when you type "hostname" right?
21:18:21  <TruePikachu> At least, not one I am aware of...
21:18:52  <TruePikachu> hostname; returns (because I changed it back because of that one error from starting gVIM)
21:19:24  <TruePikachu> When installing Linux, I had to specify one to use
21:20:21  <BlackXanthus> is that the one you specified when installing linux?
21:20:25  <TruePikachu> Yes
21:20:28  <BlackXanthus> right...
21:20:38  <BlackXanthus> okay, so ti's doing what it's meant to.
21:20:45  <BlackXanthus> the problem is that openTTD is not seeing it?
21:21:09  <TruePikachu> It seems, as OpenTTD is apparently trying to access "":0
21:21:43  <TruePikachu> If you want, I can post the tcpdump ASCII entry of the attempted 'lookup'
21:22:42  <BlackXanthus> yes.. that's the address of the X-Server, that's what it's meant to do.
21:22:57  <BlackXanthus> is it a problem starting openTTD?
21:23:31  *** Devroush [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:24:21  <BlackXanthus> Anyone got any ideas why AIOrder.AreOrderFlagsValid would fail with invalid, even thoughthe station is valid?
21:25:15  <TruePikachu> No, the overall error is that I cannot do any multiplayer. I have deduced it to be a problem with a local computer configuration as the forked output from OPenTTD says that hostname "" port 0 is not a valid IP4 or IP6 address, or at least it says something around those lines
21:26:25  <Forked> stop saying forked :p
21:26:32  <TruePikachu> lol
21:27:19  <TruePikachu> lol, my mom literally just asked if I have any forks
21:28:01  <Xrufuian> m dfk fvo fkvmdk jgivjir rbvh48bmr0b
21:28:07  <TruePikachu> ?
21:28:20  <Xrufuian> Sorry. Wrong window.
21:28:24  <TruePikachu> ...
21:28:43  <Xrufuian> I'm angry at cmd.exe...
21:28:47  <BlackXanthus> you trying to connect locally?
21:28:54  <TruePikachu> ?
21:28:55  * BlackXanthus is angry at openTTD AI
21:29:04  <BlackXanthus> TruePikachu : are you trying to play with yourself?
21:29:13  <BlackXanthus> TruePikachu : umm. I mean.. run two games on one machine?
21:29:17  <TruePikachu> No, I'm trying to play with Xrufuian
21:29:36  <BlackXanthus> hmm
21:29:45  <glx> advertised server ?
21:30:06  <BlackXanthus> the problem, then, seems to be not that it's having trouble connecting locally, but that it can't connect remotely?
21:30:11  <BlackXanthus> Does it start in single-player mode?
21:30:39  <TruePikachu> At first, yes. OpenTTD's "spooned" output said that the advertisment server isn't replying. Yes, OTTD works single-player
21:31:24  <TruePikachu> (At first, yes @ glx)
21:32:15  <TruePikachu> glx, your username seems familiar. Have you been to #tcpa at any time?
21:32:15  *** Progman [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
21:32:24  <glx> no
21:32:34  <BlackXanthus> TruePikachu : then the problem is most probably then, with your network
21:32:35  <TruePikachu> not on this server
21:32:45  <glx> if it's advertised, first check is
21:32:50  <TruePikachu> BlackXanthus: I am trying to fix the problem
21:32:58  <glx> if you don't see it there, noone will see it
21:34:21  <TruePikachu> Not on the list.
21:34:38  <glx> then the problem is on your end ;)
21:34:41  <BlackXanthus> TruePikachu : tried turning your local firewall off?
21:34:53  <TruePikachu> I know, and I don't have a firewall script going
21:35:23  <TruePikachu> @ports
21:35:23  <DorpsGek> TruePikachu: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
21:36:22  <TruePikachu> Port 3979 is closed on localhost and filtered on 0.250
21:36:48  <glx> when you start a server it "registers" to master server via port 3978, then the master servers tries to connect to your server on port 3979 (or the port you set in the config)
21:38:02  <BlackXanthus> that may be your problem
21:38:27  <TruePikachu> BlackXanthus: I know...
21:38:39  <TruePikachu> I just removed all serber binds.
21:38:42  <TruePikachu> *server
21:39:21  <TruePikachu> Now 127,0,0,1 is opened, 192,168,0,250 is still filtered
21:39:37  <TruePikachu> This may be because the server was bound to 250
21:39:38  <Rubidium> so there is a firewall running
21:39:50  <TruePikachu> I don't know where, though
21:40:08  <Rubidium> neither do I (I even don't know what OS you're running)
21:40:20  <Rubidium> or rather, what distro
21:41:06  <TruePikachu> Here is the process forest:
21:41:08  <TruePikachu>
21:41:31  <Rubidium> that doesn't tell us much
21:41:33  <TruePikachu> Like I said before, this is VectorLinux, but IDK what version number
21:41:53  <Rubidium> never heard of that distro
21:42:13  <TruePikachu> It is a slackware variant
21:42:18  <Rubidium> what is the output of iptables -L and iptables -L -t nat ?
21:43:12  <TruePikachu>
21:43:14  <BlackXanthus> anyone know anyting about AI orders?
21:43:30  <TruePikachu> BlackXanthus: They are stupid
21:43:43  <Rubidium> TruePikachu: there's your firewall
21:44:15  <BlackXanthus> TruePikachu : indeed. But could someone give me a little help with them? I can't seem to add any orders to a Bus. It the check for the OrderFlag fails, but I don't know why.
21:44:18  <TruePikachu> Okay. I thought it was like a firewall script.
21:44:33  <TruePikachu> Rubidium: How can I get this fixed?
21:44:39  <Rubidium> try iptables -P INPUT ACCEPT
21:45:17  <BlackXanthus> . /etc/init.d/iptables stop
21:45:39  <TruePikachu> Why the dot?
21:45:45  <Rubidium> BlackXanthus: that would definitely not work for me
21:45:49  <BlackXanthus> because if I just typed / it thought it was an editor command
21:45:57  <BlackXanthus> I mean. IRC command.
21:46:04  <BlackXanthus> Rubidium : depends on your distro =)
21:46:06  <TruePikachu> Why not a space
21:46:08  <Rubidium> /etc/init.d/iptables stop
21:46:17  <Rubidium> see... it "just" works
21:46:18  <TruePikachu> Tried. Not found...
21:46:27  <TruePikachu> I'll look myself
21:46:36  <Rubidium> TruePikachu: but just try my command
21:46:45  <BlackXanthus> TruePikachu : because this IRC client ignores leading white-space (bug-report filed, and the programmer is working on it(ie, me ;) ))
21:47:23  <TruePikachu> closest matched directory is /etc/rc.d/rc.init, but there is no iptables there
21:47:47  <TruePikachu> *init.d
21:47:57  <BlackXanthus> TruePikachu : try Rubidium's command
21:48:07  <TruePikachu> I tried.
21:48:09  <BlackXanthus> TruePikachu : that will simply open up the firewall (rather than turning it off)
21:48:31  <TruePikachu> bash: /etc/init.d: No such file or directory
21:48:43  <Rubidium> oh... not that one...
21:48:48  <Rubidium> 23:44 <@Rubidium> try iptables -P INPUT ACCEPT
21:48:54  <Rubidium> ^ that one ^
21:49:05  <BlackXanthus> iptables -F
21:49:15  <BlackXanthus> (which should empty all rules from it)
21:49:28  <Rubidium> BlackXanthus: but not change the default rule, which is drop
21:49:31  * TruePikachu hates BlackXanthus for giving the wrong command
21:49:45  <Rubidium> I've made my remote server unreachable by doing that once...
21:49:50  <BlackXanthus>
21:49:57  <TruePikachu> Port opened
21:50:03  <TruePikachu> Xrufuian: Try to connect
21:50:11  <BlackXanthus> TruePikachu : ffft. It works on sensible distros (you know, like RedHat/Fedora)
21:50:42  <TruePikachu> Like I said, this box was designed for Win98, so I'm running a slackware variant on it
21:50:53  <BlackXanthus> TruePikachu : =p
21:51:14  <BlackXanthus> okay, last try, does anyone know anything about openTTD AI, in particulary, adding orders?
21:51:20  <TruePikachu> Why the huge nostrils?
21:51:26  <Rubidium> I rather avoid RedHat (and community RedHat)
21:51:32  <BlackXanthus> TruePikachu : it's a tounge
21:51:33  <Rubidium> BlackXanthus: what is your exact problem?
21:51:36  <BlackXanthus> Rubidium : I got qualifications in it
21:51:55  <TruePikachu> ... (: =P) -> : eyes, = nose/nostrils, p mouth
21:52:22  <Xrufuian> I Rejoice! It worked! :D
21:52:25  <TruePikachu> Yay, it works!!!
21:52:29  <BlackXanthus> Rubidium : I can create a bus (mostly by fluke, but that's another problem). I want to add orders to it (currently, just looping through all the stations I have, and adding them).  However, when I try it, it gives an invalid flag error
21:53:09  <BlackXanthus>
21:53:55  <BlackXanthus> TruePikachu : you can coonect?
21:53:59  <BlackXanthus> connect, even?
21:54:34  <Xrufuian> I could. And then it just dropped. :|
21:54:59  <BlackXanthus> Xrufuian : then Ihave no idea outside of that.. unless you should also check your firewall.
21:55:02  <TruePikachu> g
21:55:02  <TruePikachu> It works!!!
21:55:02  <TruePikachu> Of course, my interface went down
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21:55:06  <Rubidium> BlackXanthus: the station list returns station IDs, the order needs the tile index. You need to convert the station ID by AIStation.GetLocation(station_id) before passing it to appendOrder
21:55:14  <BlackXanthus> now.. about my problem?
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21:55:32  <BlackXanthus> Rubidium : oh right =)
21:55:46  <TruePikachu> Of course, one terminal window had "ifconfig ra0 down " typed in, and I just so happened to type "exit <ENTER>" into it
21:55:53  <Rubidium> and for the bus building you've probably got the same issue
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21:56:26  <Rubidium> although... maybe depots are already tile indices
21:56:36  <Rubidium> yes... they are
21:56:47  <Rubidium> then maybe the bus you're trying to build isn't available yet or something
21:56:59  <BlackXanthus> the bus is chugging around quite happily
21:57:16  <BlackXanthus> (though I cheated with that)
21:57:27  *** Xrufuian [] has quit [Quit:  I will return, someday, for non-multiplayer advice.]
21:57:40  <BlackXanthus> hmm.. I've added AIStation.GetLocation(station) to the code, getting the same error
21:57:56  <Rubidium> paste the new piece of code then
21:58:42  <BlackXanthus> k...
21:59:59  <BlackXanthus>
22:02:36  <Rubidium> looks okay (i.e. not obviously wrong); are you sure it's running the new code?
22:02:44  *** snc [rdlBNC@] has joined #openttd
22:03:02  <BlackXanthus> how can I tell?
22:03:18  <Rubidium> just add some new logging info
22:03:30  <BlackXanthus> yep, seems to be running the new code
22:03:36  <Rubidium> are you sure you've built a bus? And not, by accident, a truck?
22:04:09  <Rubidium> and what's the exact error you're getting?
22:04:14  *** welshdragon [rdlBNC@] has joined #openttd
22:04:29  <Rubidium> as I can't quite find the "invalid flag error"
22:04:45  <Rubidium> and which version of OpenTTD are you using?
22:05:00  <BlackXanthus> umm..
22:05:16  <BlackXanthus> 101
22:05:17  <BlackXanthus> apparently
22:05:36  <BlackXanthus> 1.0.1 to be exact
22:05:37  *** Wizzleby [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
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22:08:37  <BlackXanthus> ahh well
22:08:56  <BlackXanthus> I guess writing AI's is something I'll have to leave for another day.
22:09:27  <TomyLobo> how is stuff added to bananas?
22:09:41  <BlackXanthus> g'night all
22:09:43  <BlackXanthus> TTFN
22:09:49  <BlackXanthus> (or later, because it's the kind of thign that bugs me
22:10:01  <Rubidium> TomyLobo: by becoming a manager, but *please* do not add stuff that isn't created by you
22:10:24  *** BlackXanthus [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
22:10:27  <TomyLobo> i keep sending around this link to a grf i use ^^
22:10:53  <Rubidium> then don't use that GRF
22:11:04  <TomyLobo> why not? it's good
22:11:10  <Rubidium> apparantly the author has decided it shouldn't be used easily with OpenTTD
22:11:20  *** devilsadvocate [~devilsadv@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:11:28  <TomyLobo> or maybe it's just old ^^
22:11:31  <Rubidium> TomyLobo: because you have to keep sending that link to that NewGRF around
22:11:35  <Rubidium> TomyLobo: dbset?
22:11:43  <TomyLobo> germanrv
22:12:13  <Rubidium> too bad for you
22:13:03  <TomyLobo> no nicknames in the credits so i cant really find out if it's one of you ^^
22:13:15  <Rubidium> probably not
22:13:16  <Eddi|zuHause> germanrv is from uwe
22:13:48  * andythenorth ponders TOS for bananas
22:13:55  <Rubidium> although I see no mention of bananas in the thread
22:14:16  <Rubidium> so... you might just ask (though you might want to check whether my research is correct first)
22:14:48  <andythenorth> hmmm....."You will only upload content of which you are (one of) the original author(s)."
22:14:51  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i open the thread, and the first thing that i see is a classic MB
22:14:55  <Eddi|zuHause> ... by MB
22:15:03  <andythenorth> linky?
22:15:28  <Eddi|zuHause> it's in german
22:15:37  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: nvm then.  my german is poor
22:15:40  * andythenorth wonders what an 'original author' is in case of GPL sets.  Copyright holder?
22:15:53  <TomyLobo> can you link me to it?
22:16:05  <Eddi|zuHause> author is an author. the person who actually wrote it...
22:16:21  <Eddi|zuHause> copyright holder need not be an author
22:16:51  <andythenorth> no
22:16:53  <TomyLobo> gpl doesnt mean it's PD
22:16:58  <andythenorth> anyway, so GPL confers right of distribution for anyone receiving a copy of the programme
22:17:10  <andythenorth> but bananas TOS limits that
22:17:19  <andythenorth> it's not a problem, just interesting
22:17:41  <andythenorth> there's no conflict, but it means bananas is weaker in terms of freedom than GPL
22:17:55  <TomyLobo> andythenorth you have no right to force someone else to distribute it
22:17:58  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, a person receiving a copy (bananas server) may refuse to want to receive it. that's not against the license
22:18:14  <Eddi|zuHause> the license does not allow you to shove it down someone's throat
22:18:20  <andythenorth> :)
22:18:44  <Rubidium> you still have the freedom to give it to all OpenTTD users... it's only a slight bit more difficult
22:18:51  <andythenorth> my point was that *I* can distribute any GPL grf, but not using bananas
22:19:08  <Rubidium> yes
22:19:24  <andythenorth> so what happens if I make a trivial mod and re-encode.  I'm then one of the authors.
22:19:36  <andythenorth> can I put that on bananas (in theory)?
22:19:46  <TomyLobo> and you have a different grf id i guess :P
22:19:47  <Rubidium> probably
22:19:51  <TomyLobo> which makes it incompatible
22:20:27  <Eddi|zuHause> in theory, i know someone who would be allowed to upload it...
22:20:48  <Rubidium> but... show me some NewGRF that is GPL and where the author refuses to upload it
22:20:57  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: Chris?
22:21:13  <Rubidium> Dale? Josef?
22:21:15  *** Brianetta [] has joined #openttd
22:21:19  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: no, someone listed in the contributors list of germanrv
22:21:53  *** Dreamxtreme [Dreamxtrem@] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
22:21:59  <TomyLobo> would be nice if he uploaded it :)
22:23:37  * andythenorth stops playing gpl mind-games and goes to bed
22:23:42  <andythenorth> good night :)
22:24:07  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: your brother or something family-ish?
22:24:21  <Eddi|zuHause> pretty much ;)
22:24:29  *** Netsplit <-> quits: Eoin, +tokai
22:26:08  <Rubidium> it actually looks kinda unfinished if the "current status" is still current
22:26:25  <Eddi|zuHause> well, "unfinished" is mainly the trucks
22:26:45  <Rubidium> so it's a "sunday" set :)
22:26:49  *** deghosty [] has joined #openttd
22:26:54  <Eddi|zuHause> there are some, but they use original TTD graphics
22:27:04  <Eddi|zuHause> a what?
22:27:14  *** Netsplit over, joins: Eoin
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22:27:38  <Rubidium> isn't it somewhat forbidden to drive with trucks in Germany?
22:27:43  <Rubidium> (on sundays)
22:28:10  <Eddi|zuHause> unless they carry refrigerated goods
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22:28:40  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: or are running on the L410
22:29:10  <__ln__> so refrigerated furniture for example is acceptable
22:29:16  <glx> same in France
22:29:49  <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: good luck arguing that to the police :)
22:31:47  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i just bumped a half year old topic...
22:32:23  <Eddi|zuHause> well, the topic is 4 years old, but half a year since the last post
22:34:12  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: you'll be flamed! :)
22:35:24  <Rubidium> and why doesn't the German wikipedia have a text about the L410?
22:35:48  <Eddi|zuHause> what's the L410?
22:35:57  <Rubidium> a road in Germany
22:36:02  <Rubidium> where trucks may drive on sunday
22:36:19  <Rubidium> near Selfkant
22:36:53  <Eddi|zuHause> L usually denotes a Landstraße, so L410 would be ambiguous because every Land can have a different L410
22:37:10  <Eddi|zuHause> except in Saxony, where it's called Staatsstraße
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22:45:27  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: that's the most elaborate portion i could find:
22:46:29  <Rubidium> yeah
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23:06:49  <game-report>
23:07:16  *** game-report is now known as EggXplosioN
23:08:30  <EggXplosioN> TT(D) use graphics, baased (sometimes, very loosely) on Glasgow buildings.
23:11:15  <EggXplosioN> real counterparts of many TT(D) buildings are lost/unknown, but one of the tiny houses TT(D) is based on the house CS lived in. (in the "features" list, not shown on the sub-page I posted a link to)
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23:15:02  * TheStupidOne explodes
23:20:57  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: do you have an idea how to +q with non-meaningful hostmask, dynamic ip and ever changing set of nicks?
23:31:03  <SmatZ> TheStupidOne: what's your point?
23:31:40  <Eddi|zuHause> SmatZ: we have been wondering that for the past three days. never made any sense
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23:32:04  <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause: oh :(
23:49:37  <Narigo> I spent some money to have a statue for me, but I can't find it :/
23:53:20  <SmatZ> :)
23:53:37  <SmatZ> Narigo: ctrl+x, make town buildings invisible -> your statue will stay wisible
23:53:42  <SmatZ> (it's "unmovable")
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23:59:22  <Eddi|zuHause> it's usually near the town center

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