Log for #openttd on 7th August 2010:
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00:22:11  <Eddi|zuHause> the one time i tried to upgrade an airport, i ended up watching the sky, and every approaching plane i quickly sent back
00:22:21  <Eddi|zuHause> by skipping the order
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00:22:33  <Eddi|zuHause> eventually the airport was free after a few tries :)
00:23:20  <Eddi|zuHause> it helps if you send them to hangar, so they don't keep bouncing back :)
00:24:22  <Identity^X> Yeah thats what I did. Thanks for the help!
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00:30:57  <Dewin> If I timetable a vehicle to stay at a stop for X days, and it gets fully loaded before X days is up -- does it leave early?
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00:34:53  <ccfreak2k> No.
00:35:00  <ccfreak2k> It will leave at the time the depart is scheduled for.
00:35:17  <Dewin> I guess I should ask the real question, which is "I want to make a vehicle wait up to X days for a full load, how do I do this?"
00:36:00  <ccfreak2k> I'd use a timetable along with "take cargo but don't wait for full load" I think.
00:36:23  <ccfreak2k> The vehicle will take what it can, but it should stay until the departure date.
00:36:46  <Dewin> ccfreak2k: The thing is, I want it to leave early if it's just sitting there doing nothing due to already being full
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00:37:15  <ccfreak2k> A timetable isn't what you want then.
00:42:33  <VVG> just full-load orders, no timetabling
00:46:03  <Eddi|zuHause> Dewin: there's only "wait X days", "wait for full load" or "wait for X days and full load, whichever comes last" not "wait for either X days or full load, whichever comes first"
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06:17:02  <andythenorth> morning
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06:34:43  <Rubidium> hello andythenorth!
06:37:25  <andythenorth> didn't Terkhen patch the refit window to alphabetical sort?
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06:37:32  <andythenorth> a few months ago?
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06:42:14  <andythenorth> can I search Trac by author / keyword?  I can't find a way other than google :P
06:43:28  <frosch123> @commit 19541
06:43:31  <DorpsGek> frosch123: Commit by terkhen :: r19541 trunk/src/vehicle_gui.cpp (2010-04-02 12:28:08 UTC)
06:43:32  <DorpsGek> frosch123: -Feature: Sort the list of refit options by cargo class / name.
06:45:13  <andythenorth> so that sorts by class first?  In that case it's probably not recently broken
06:45:18  <andythenorth> confused me though
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06:45:33  <andythenorth> just spent ages searching for 'Grain', which is near the end of my list
06:46:03  <frosch123> iirc the class is only used to sort passenger and mail first
06:46:10  <frosch123> while the rest is alphabetical
06:47:38  <andythenorth> in r20382 it's not alphabetical
06:48:44  <andythenorth> or at least, not with an alphabet I recognise
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06:51:17  <andythenorth> hmm
06:51:29  <andythenorth> ship refits are alphabetical
06:52:34  <andythenorth> train refits change according to the order of the consist
06:52:43  <andythenorth> that's....interesting behaviour
06:53:09  <andythenorth> :P
06:53:44  <andythenorth> frosch123: shall I fs it?
06:53:56  <andythenorth> sometimes these things get fixed before I've finished the ticket :P
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06:56:34  <frosch123> create a task :)
07:02:04  <andythenorth> done
07:10:07  <andythenorth> 2 tile catchment radius has certain effects
07:10:24  <andythenorth> - more feeders
07:10:36  <andythenorth> - distant join to stay sane in towns
07:10:50  <andythenorth> - more eye candy tiles to cheat an industry into a catchment
07:10:52  <andythenorth> hmm
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07:20:26  <frosch123> [09:10] <andythenorth> - distant join to stay sane in towns <- doesn't it become less sane?
07:21:14  <frosch123> hmm, maybe for cargo->station transfer, but not for acceptance
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07:24:37  <Rubidium> the next mibbit join might very well be him
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07:28:56  <frosch123> wow, make completed
07:32:50  * frosch123 has a running crosscompiler and can compile ttdp for windows
07:33:39  <Rubidium> bravo
07:34:17  <frosch123> just my diff does not work
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07:44:12  <Rubidium> oh the irony as of late...
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07:44:50  <Rubidium> ... OpenTTD developers writing patches for TTDPatch, TTDPatch developers playing OpenTTD because TTDPatch lags too much
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07:46:47  <frosch123> i am quite sure my ttdp diffs have about the quality as sirkoz' for ottd :)
07:47:07  <frosch123> they work, but i do not necessarily know why :p
07:50:58  * andythenorth ponders a 'magic' station
07:51:03  <andythenorth> station tile /s
07:51:45  <andythenorth> people can walk to a station, yes / no?
07:51:59  <frosch123> i can
07:52:07  <andythenorth> :)
07:52:10  <frosch123> about 500m
07:52:14  <andythenorth> can mail walk?
07:52:34  <frosch123> i can carry my mail 50m to the postal station
07:52:43  <andythenorth> can food / goods walk?
07:53:15  <frosch123> i can carry my food 200m from aldi to my house, as well as 8m from my refridgerator to my mouth
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07:53:35  <andythenorth> how does the food get to aldi?
07:54:04  <frosch123> likely not using heqs
07:54:17  <andythenorth> :P
07:54:47  <andythenorth> I have a completely pointless and illogical feature suggestion :P
07:55:05  <frosch123> oh, btw. the post has girls driving yellow bycicles to bring mail to my house
07:55:37  <andythenorth> could we have tiny catchment areas, with 'station building' and 'post office' tiles that make catchments *a lot* larger for PAX / Mail
07:55:43  <andythenorth> but not for other cargos?
07:56:04  <frosch123> you mean the warehouse stuff?
07:56:11  <andythenorth> possibly similar
07:56:19  <frosch123> a station needs a warehouse to be able to transport stuff at reasonable rating
07:56:34  <andythenorth> doesn't the warehouse prevent ratings dropping?  (Same as RT2)
07:57:15  <frosch123> well, yes, currently you have trains waiting for full load. so instead of a post office you bring your letter directly to the train :p
07:58:01  <andythenorth> makes complete sense :P
07:58:21  <andythenorth> I don't know why, but I like the small catchment areas
07:58:27  <andythenorth> there's something neat about it
07:58:40  <andythenorth> I think it's because RVs are much more useful with the right newgrfs
07:58:51  <andythenorth> But in town it's just unworkable
07:59:30  <andythenorth> bus feeders are never very good
07:59:47  <andythenorth> and pax have legs anyway
08:01:34  <andythenorth> hmm
08:02:27  <andythenorth> is there room in the map for 'generic station tiles'?  These are not specific to any vehicle type
08:03:11  <frosch123> currently there are only custom railstation tiles
08:03:23  <frosch123> even if they have no rail
08:03:36  <andythenorth> they've been a good solution for a long time, but always a bit of a hack?
08:03:54  <frosch123> hmm, no, not quite correct: there are also custom airport tiles now
08:04:22  <andythenorth> conceptually, can a station even exist without vehicle types?
08:04:52  <andythenorth> i.e. it's a station for a type of vehicle/transport
08:05:05  <frosch123> i guess a station without vehicletypes is currently a greyed station sign, which gets removed
08:05:43  <andythenorth> Railroad Tycoon 2 / 3 had various station upgrades available.
08:05:47  <andythenorth> They did different things
08:06:06  <andythenorth> they were good eye candy, but I can't decide if they were good for gameplay
08:06:25  <andythenorth> it ended up that as soon as you had money, you just build all the upgrades at every station
08:06:37  <andythenorth> so building a station is 15 clicks instead of 1
08:07:01  <andythenorth> their effects on gameplay were things like:
08:07:08  <andythenorth> - reduced penalty for delays in pickup
08:07:26  <andythenorth> - increased transport rates
08:07:36  <andythenorth> - increased payment
08:07:38  * andythenorth googles
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08:42:07  * andythenorth wonders if a post office is actually a type of industry?
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08:43:24  <Rubidium> andythenorth: there's the postal/posting industry
08:43:33  <Rubidium> like there's the banking industry
08:43:56  * andythenorth was limiting his thinking to world of OpenTTD :)
08:44:55  <dihedral> as long as you dont limit your thinking of the world in favor of OpenTTD ^^
08:45:35  <devilsadvocate> andythenorth, please dont make mail distribution as hard as goods :\
08:46:16  <andythenorth> devilsadvocate: in what respect?
08:48:07  <dihedral> andythenorth wants to avoid spam :-P
08:49:47  * andythenorth thinks
08:50:55  <andythenorth> so when we sometimes use distant-join stations to stick a station tile somewhere in a town (increasing catchment)....what do we call that?
08:51:06  <andythenorth> catchment booster?
08:59:49  <andythenorth> can a station measure the distance to the town sign tile?
09:01:39  <andythenorth> I can't see a var for that in station or town specs
09:08:03  <devilsadvocate> station walking?
09:08:27  <devilsadvocate> and maximum station spread?
09:09:31  <devilsadvocate> andythenorth, its nice to be able to dump mail wherever and leave it be. if the city station now has to make its way over to a post office... :(
09:14:18  <keoz> I think mail industry is perfect as it is in the original model, similar to passengers
09:14:30  <keoz> that's also just coherent
09:19:17  <Terkhen> good morning
09:21:10  <andythenorth> frosch123:
09:21:13  <andythenorth> ach sorry
09:21:13  <Terkhen> hmm... interesting
09:21:35  <andythenorth> frosch123: could station catchment be set by newgrf (on a per tile-ID basis)?
09:21:38  <Terkhen> I remember testing trains, not that I can trust my memory much
09:21:55  * Terkhen probably added the wagons in order or something as stupid as that
09:21:57  <frosch123> andythenorth: you first have to rewrite the catchment code
09:22:27  <andythenorth> alternative way of thinking about it....could catchments be defined by cargos?
09:22:31  <frosch123> because it currently is based on bounding rectangles around stations (for acceptance) resp. houses/industries (for production)
09:22:49  <Terkhen> this proves that not many people play with trains :P
09:23:10  <frosch123> so if you join a busstop with a intercontinental airport, the busstop gets the catchment radius of the airport
09:29:26  <andythenorth> frosch123: does it really make sense for catchment to vary by station type?
09:29:35  <andythenorth> do you walk further to airport than bus station?
09:30:04  <frosch123> disable "realistic catchment area", maybe it is more realistic then :p
09:30:11  <andythenorth> :P
09:30:21  <frosch123> but then again, you go to a bus stop by feet, while you may go to an airport by car
09:30:54  <andythenorth> how does coal get to the airport?
09:32:24  * frosch123 summons belugas
09:32:42  <Ammler> you cheat yourself, if you use airport to get coal ;-)
09:46:50  <andythenorth> how about catchment area by cargo class?
09:49:50  * andythenorth concludes he's having a one-man discussion about this :P
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09:56:02  <Ammler> on MP games, there are sometimes stupid guys buying land 4 tiles around a industry to get exclusive right, there you need a airport
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09:57:08  <andythenorth> Ammler: interesting
09:57:27  <andythenorth> why don't they just buy even more tiles?
09:57:48  <Ammler> they will next time ;-)
09:59:11  <andythenorth> Ammler: can't think of a way to stop that.  Sounds like a good competition strategy :P
09:59:58  <Alberth> buy the 5th row? :p
10:00:04  <Ammler> the funny part is, if you join competition servers, you only compete against such guys
10:00:48  <andythenorth> different kind of game I guess
10:01:10  <Ammler> hard to find
10:02:50  <andythenorth> Ammler: my idea was more valid for single player...."Hard" setting for catchment areas giving 2-tile catchments for all stations.
10:03:17  <Ammler> in sp, you can easy setup such a rule
10:03:21  <Ammler> and play with it
10:03:30  <Ammler> no need for special code
10:03:34  <andythenorth> I've patched for it already, it's easy
10:04:01  <andythenorth> (the 2 tile part, not the making it a setting part)
10:04:54  <Ammler> well, with station walk, it doesn't really matter
10:05:20  <Ammler> or distant-join
10:06:11  <andythenorth> it does make towns much harder
10:06:27  <andythenorth> distant-join works, but there has to be a tile free to place a station on
10:06:38  <andythenorth> or I guess I could use RV stops
10:07:15  <Ammler> yeah, autoremove stops, where a rv never stops ;-)
10:08:00  <andythenorth> could station tiles be limited to only certain cargos / classes?
10:12:33  <frosch123> [11:21] <frosch123> andythenorth: you first have to rewrite the catchment code
10:12:35  <frosch123> :p
10:12:50  <Terkhen> I'm gone until monday, have a nice weekend
10:13:03  <frosch123> have fun terkhen :)
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10:14:57  <andythenorth> frosch123: if I wanted to see current catchment area overlayed on map....
10:15:05  <andythenorth> I'd have to first rewrite the catchment code?
10:15:23  <frosch123> do you know how the current catchment stuff works?
10:15:44  <andythenorth> nah not really.  Mostly I live in a happy world of action 2 :P
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10:17:46  <andythenorth> frosch123: I'm reading station.cpp
10:17:56  <andythenorth> so I need to draw something
10:18:03  <andythenorth> to understand it
10:18:21  <frosch123> first problem is that catchment is different for acceptance and supply
10:20:03  <andythenorth> so acceptance is determined by (max radius from each station tile), but supply is on the station sign?
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10:21:52  <frosch123> acceptance: take the bounding rectangle of the whole station and add the biggest catchment radius of the station components to it (so two busstops with 64x64 tile between them have a catchment area of 70x70
10:22:25  <frosch123> supply. take the bounding rectangle of the industry, and check whether there are stationtiles which can reach this rectangle with their radius
10:22:41  <andythenorth> acceptance seems a bit bonkers....
10:23:08  <andythenorth> supply seems more sane
10:23:12  <frosch123> yes, but quite hard to do it correct and efficient
10:23:28  <frosch123> supply is also very wrong for non-rectangular industries
10:24:02  <andythenorth> these look like difficult problems :o
10:24:08  <frosch123> oh, btw. for supply the stationtile also uses the maximum radius of the stations' components
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10:31:11  <andythenorth> frosch123: so acceptance is like this?
10:32:20  <frosch123> you miscounted at the southwest, but basically correct :)
10:35:51  <andythenorth> frosch123: and for supply...
10:38:44  <frosch123> for 1x1 houses yes. for industries you have to draw a box around the industry and intersect the areas from the industry with the area from the station
10:39:34  <frosch123> also note that for industries the tiles define the acceptance, while the industry defines the production
10:39:50  <andythenorth> yup...I'm familiar with that one ;)
10:39:51  <frosch123> so for acceptance you need 8/8 acceptance, while for production one tile suffices
10:40:11  <andythenorth> FIRS has all acceptance at 8/8 for this reason....reduces bug reports :P
10:40:32  <frosch123> :)
10:40:59  <andythenorth> so industry always has a rectangular box around it?
10:41:20  * andythenorth tests
10:41:26  <andythenorth> how strange :o
10:42:46  <andythenorth> is any of this actually a problem?  Or is it just a 'tidy minds' situation
10:42:52  <frosch123> irregular stations result in acceptance without supply. irregular industries result in supply without acceptance
10:43:32  <frosch123> well, every now and then there are bugreports about stations having acceptance but no supply, or the other way around
10:44:11  <frosch123> so, having it correct would be nice, but not quite easy to implement :)
10:46:25  <andythenorth> certainly beyond me :o
10:47:58  <frosch123> 00:04:44.412 Changing the VM state from 'RUNNING' to 'GURU_MEDITATION'. <- sounds troublesome
10:54:25  <andythenorth> amiga fans :P
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11:58:25  <Wolf01> hello
12:07:10  <Alberth> hello
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12:12:23  <Wolf01> I need an answer: is possible to "help" a "blocked" AI which doesn't know what it's doing (without cheating)? Example: often some AIs build vehicles with trailers and have only roadstations (not drive through roadstops, the old type), and usually get blocked because multipart vehicles can't go there and I don't want to see stupid loops of thousand of vehicles exiting, turning and re-entering a depot...
12:13:20  <Eddi|zuHause> no, the company cheat is the only way
12:13:48  <Eddi|zuHause> better fix the AI, because there are ways to check that
12:14:27  <Alberth> and even then, some AIs may track what they have build (and where), and get confused when stuff that they didn't build themselves appears.
12:16:58  <frosch123> crash the rv by train, maybe the ai build different ones
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12:18:03  <Wolf01> eheh, it's difficult to build a railway in the middle of a city :D
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12:26:05  <Eddi|zuHause> use trams :)
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12:32:55  <Wolf01> I hope in the nearest future will be possible to build rails over roads and not only level crossings, but really like trams :D
12:33:09  <Wolf01> (not 2 tracks on one tile)
12:34:51  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: i don't think that is useful at all...
12:35:10  <Wolf01> it is, to crash road vehicles
12:35:54  <Wolf01> I don't know why if a feature is not useful for one person it shouldn't be useful for others
12:36:44  <Eddi|zuHause> who said that?
12:37:47  <Wolf01> usually it's so...
12:39:42  <Eddi|zuHause> there are more nuances to "it's not useful"...
12:41:37  <Eddi|zuHause> like, if you can't prove to a dev that there's a real use for it, it likely just never gets implemented
12:43:20  <__ln__> and that is what applies to 97,4% of all new ideas about ottd.
12:44:57  <Eddi|zuHause> well, depending on what you count as "new"...
12:49:04  <frosch123> true, i have lots of idea, but noone implements them :(
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12:51:25  <__ln__> I would also like to build rails over roads (and road bridges), and not because I'd like to crash with road vehicles.
12:57:42  <Wolf01> Usually when I need something I try to implement it, but I find that I can't finish it because I miss the knowledge :P
13:10:34  <Eddi|zuHause> usually when i need something i try to implement it, but i find that i have the knowledge but lack the skills for fine tuning
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13:18:25  <Wolf01> for example I can't figure of what I need to do to fix the measurement tool's tooltip...
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14:30:38  * andythenorth thinks BROS should piss or get off the pot :P
14:31:01  <Sacro> ?
14:31:40  <andythenorth> it's all bitchy chat, no development, everyone's ego is wounded, no-one fricking ships anything
14:31:54  <andythenorth> 'community sets' are stupid :D
14:32:51  <andythenorth> why not have one evil leader and a few acolytes?
14:33:11  <andythenorth> Sacro: one of you should just seize control :P
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14:35:18  <Sacro> wait what?
14:35:24  <Sacro> confused
14:35:56  * andythenorth is ranting and probably shouldn't
14:36:21  <andythenorth> I should know better
14:36:35  <andythenorth> I don't get why it's so hard though?
14:36:44  <Sacro> freeside will hopefully be back up soon
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14:37:11  <Alberth> andythenorth: otherwise you have to do all the work
14:37:12  <andythenorth> but that's not the problem?  The problem is that no-one is working on the set.
14:37:38  *** Goulp [] has quit [Quit: KISS]
14:37:55  <andythenorth> however it's easier to complain about the hosting than to do work
14:37:56  <Eddi|zuHause> democracy doesn't work if you don't elect someone that actually does something (executive)
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14:38:28  <Sacro> ooh, redmine is nice
14:38:33  <Sacro> might have to chuck that on freeside
14:38:57  <Alberth> Sacro: sort of
14:39:27  <andythenorth> Sacro: why bother?  It's already on openttd coop
14:39:44  <Sacro> andythenorth: freeside is for Hull Uni students
14:39:55  <andythenorth> :)
14:40:16  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: and to get something that is consistent with each other, democracy is more like democrazy
14:40:49  <andythenorth> Sacro: fair point about hull.  However...the best thing you and Mark could do for BROS is *refuse to host it*
14:41:09  <andythenorth> There are well established community resources for developing sets
14:41:27  <Sacro> it's not my decision
14:41:41  <andythenorth> whose is it?
14:41:41  <Sacro> i am affiliated with freeside, not with bros
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14:42:08  <andythenorth> Sacro :)
14:42:23  <Sacro> it is welshdragon afaik
14:42:43  <Eddi|zuHause> what people like the americans quickly forget is: democracy is not "the superiour" form of government... especially not for countries that are devastated through a war... for anything larger than a village, democracy needs certain infrastructures and foundations...
14:43:16  <andythenorth> welshdragon: hi hi
14:44:40  <welshdragon> boo
14:44:45  <welshdragon> i'm on TF@
14:44:50  <welshdragon> *TF2
14:45:17  <andythenorth> welshdragon: tell BROS that freeside hosting is no longer available and they'll need to use the standard OpenTTD community resources
14:45:22  <andythenorth> that'll get things moving :P
14:45:43  <andythenorth> bet you
14:46:44  <welshdragon> andythenorth, nope, as they'll just moan more
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14:47:01  <andythenorth> they'll moan anyway.  They're english
14:47:07  <andythenorth> or welsh, whatever
14:47:24  <andythenorth> tell em the forum isn't coming back.  Crisis will lead to action!
14:47:53  <andythenorth> money on it
14:48:07  <welshdragon> andythenorth, i can't just do that
14:48:24  <andythenorth> the police won't come round and arrest you if you do
14:48:36  <andythenorth> tell em I made you do it :P
14:49:02  <andythenorth> what's the worst that could happen?
14:49:14  <andythenorth> bah.  running out of battery.  stupid mac.
14:49:49  <welshdragon> lol
14:49:57  <welshdragon> andythenorth, the worst that can happen is that I lose friends
14:50:31  <andythenorth> if you lose friends over some 12 pixel high sprites...
14:50:39  * andythenorth feels a greeting-card cliche coming on
14:52:45  <welshdragon> meh
14:52:50  <welshdragon> i'd rather not do that
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14:58:33  <andythenorth> welshdragon: I reckon it would be good for the set
14:58:42  <andythenorth> but...battery issues :P  bbl
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15:03:32  <welshdragon> andythenorth, There has already been a coup
15:03:42  <welshdragon> i can't bring myself to say no
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15:15:21  <Nite> Hi
15:16:13  <Nite> can i install ottd on an usb stick (win version)?
15:16:42  <Markk> Yes
15:17:12  <Markk> Or else you can just copy/move the folder from Programs to the stick.
15:17:24  <Nite> so cool
15:17:27  <Nite> thx
15:17:29  <Markk> np
15:17:30  <Markk> :)
15:17:53  <Eddi|zuHause> make sure you copy the stuff in My Documents\Openttd there too
15:18:56  <Nite> can i make ottd not use teh mydocuments folder?
15:19:03  <Progman> yes
15:19:05  <glx> just put an empty openttd.cfg in the install dir
15:19:33  <Nite> om it is already like this - will try it out
15:19:43  <Markk> I like how the whole channel gets involved. <3
15:19:55  <Nite> jup thx
15:20:21  <Nite> so now the offices can be "infected" with ottd ... ;)
15:20:29  <Markk> :)
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15:34:37  <andythenorth> welshdragon: why close it :P
15:34:38  <andythenorth>
15:34:42  <andythenorth> ^ not closed.
15:35:42  <andythenorth> I've been trying to close that ticket Foobar wrote for fricking ages :P
15:35:48  <andythenorth> but I can't, because FIRS isn't done yet
15:36:21  <Alberth> now you see how easy finishing a set is :p
15:37:43  <andythenorth> indeed
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15:40:19  <andythenorth> Alberth: why not write a FS: game is not complete?  Then rubidium can close it and it's done!
15:41:29  * Alberth sees no value in considering OpenTTD finished
15:42:01  <Alberth> I'd wander off to elsewhere instead
15:42:51  <BlackXanthus> what would "finished" look like anyway?
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15:45:00  <Ammler> 1.0 = finished :-)
15:45:19  <Alberth> the state of the program after the moment all developers have left.
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15:46:03  <Alberth> Ammler: nope, there are already 3 more versions
15:46:32  <Ammler> yes, sequels
15:46:47  <Eddi|zuHause> it's called a milestone.
15:49:52  <Ammler> yes, and milestones can be finished
15:50:01  <Ammler> or reached
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15:56:49  <andythenorth> or not reached
15:58:05  * andythenorth remembers some FIRS tickets can be closed :)
16:01:57  <Alberth> always a good idea :)
16:04:54  * andythenorth has sta
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16:13:36  <andythenorth> does shortening an RV change offsets?
16:17:06  <Eddi|zuHause> probably...
16:26:16  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't even know what the "anchor" point is supposed to be
16:27:56  <andythenorth> I should just test it and see what happens
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16:36:47  <Zuu_> Wolf01: You could disable all articulated RV grfs - then you won't have that issue.
16:37:09  <Zuu_> Though, you should probably also report the issue to the AI author.
16:42:34  <Zuu_> So that the AI author can add a check in the engine selection method to exclude articulated vehicles from the choice.
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16:50:36  <Rubidium> andythenorth: I'd assign that to the Mac OS X port and still claim that all Mac OS X bugs should be fixed before considering official support
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17:06:05  <Wolf01> Zuu_: I want to play with ARV, the AIs are OTVI, Convoy and PAXLink, I think the most famous and old AIs should be ARV aware
17:07:22  <Zuu_> Did you had any problems with ARV + PAXLink?
17:07:25  *** Zuu_ is now known as Zuu
17:08:55  *** Dewin [] has joined #openttd
17:09:04  <Zuu> Btw, nice to hear someone is still using PAXLink :-)
17:11:05  <Wolf01> Let me check whom of the 3 is
17:11:54  <Wolf01> OTVI purchases too many buses
17:14:50  <andythenorth> what constitutes a steep slope?  I am trying to figure out how to build industries on slopes...
17:15:19  <guru3> a tile with two or less points on the same level is steep
17:15:41  <andythenorth> thanks
17:15:43  <Wolf01> ok, Convoy is the culprit
17:26:03  <Wolf01> Zuu:
17:28:30  <Zuu> Isn't a steep slope when three levels are involved?
17:28:46  <andythenorth> dunno
17:28:55  <andythenorth> but I now have a sheep farm on a hill :)
17:29:06  <Wolf01> :O nice
17:29:11  <guru3> Zuu: different way of saying same thing
17:29:53  <Zuu> with your definition you could have two points on level x and two on x+1
17:30:18  <Zuu> steep slopes has afik two at x, one at x -1 and one at x+1.
17:30:30  <andythenorth> I am guessing this is a steep slope :)
17:30:30  <andythenorth>
17:30:44  <andythenorth> several layers of foundation :o
17:31:01  <andythenorth> is that desirable for industries generally?
17:31:03  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: ^
17:32:07  <Zuu> Maybe for a wine farm :-)
17:32:08  <Wolf01> maybe the facilities should be built in plain, the sheeps' fence could be like the fruit plantations
17:32:20  <andythenorth> ?
17:32:40  <andythenorth> you mean the fences follow the slope?
17:32:56  <Eddi|zuHause> the sheep should not have foundations, but should be sloped
17:33:00  <Eddi|zuHause> like farm tiles and such
17:33:01  <Wolf01> if you can join more sheep tiles yes
17:33:25  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I agree, but I'm waiting on mr frosch123 for fields
17:33:45  <andythenorth> I'm not going to figure out slopes at the moment
17:33:53  <andythenorth> although I may have to anyway later :|
17:34:00  <Eddi|zuHause> and maybe you can do custom/half foundations for the houses, and find some that align diagonally with the steep slope
17:34:47  <Zuu> Wolf01: You could repot the AVR issues of Convoy to it's thread. The AI is not really updated anymore, but reporting it at least lets the author know what problems the AI has when he might come back.
17:35:17  <Wolf01> and it's weird to see the front toor facing a 2 level slope... " 'morning wife, I'll go to graze the sheeeeeeeeeeee *plonk*"
17:35:22  <Wolf01> ok, I'll do it
17:35:30  <Wolf01> *toor->door
17:36:21  <andythenorth> :)
17:37:01  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i'm thinking sheep or cow farms could very well fit into an alpine scenery
17:37:17  <Alberth> yesterday I did an AI experiment with max 100 road vehicles. I was thinking running an AI competition with a limited #vehicles may be better for measuring performance?
17:37:33  <Alberth> ie they must make every vehicle count then
17:37:49  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I'm doing the dairy farm right now
17:38:00  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, AIs just tend to throw vehicles at it, i really don't like that...
17:38:02  <andythenorth> I'm trying to build it without steep slopes to which looks better
17:38:55  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: really, maybe with half-slopes it fits better
17:40:56  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause:  this is dairy farm without steep slopes
17:41:08  <andythenorth> I think it looks fine.  Fewer places it can be built though
17:41:28  * andythenorth tests with steep slopes
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17:43:09  <Wolf01> that looks really nice, without fences maybe it's better too
17:44:14  <andythenorth> steep slopes look a bit silly for dairy farm
17:44:33  <Eddi|zuHause> err... you really need fences at the foundations... or the cows fall off :)
17:45:40  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: give me the bit maths to check all that stuff and I'll draw it
17:45:45  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r20395 /trunk/src/lang/ (5 files):
17:45:45  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:45  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: romanian - 126 changes by tonny
17:45:45  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: russian - 2 changes by Lone_Wolf
17:45:45  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: serbian - 5 changes by etran
17:45:47  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: swedish - 1 changes by Zuu
17:45:47  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: ukrainian - 9 changes by Fixer
17:45:52  <andythenorth> the fishing harbour is similarly complex in that respect
17:46:09  <andythenorth> but peter gave me the maths :)
17:46:27  <Eddi|zuHause> if you ask me at a time where my brain is not occupied with something else...
17:46:33  <andythenorth> steep slopes for sheep farm is good.  Normal slopes for everything else
17:46:46  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I'll hold you to that in future.  That will be a day of work for me :)
17:47:04  <andythenorth> But I can copy it from one farm type to another so could be worth it
17:49:01  <andythenorth> hmm
17:49:20  <andythenorth> probme
17:49:23  <andythenorth> problem :P
17:49:43  <andythenorth> the map generator won't build these industries on slopes.  It levels the ground
17:49:51  <andythenorth> works as expected if player funds industry
17:50:21  * andythenorth peers into madness that is industry_cmd.cpp
17:51:49  <Eddi|zuHause> i once noticed something similar with PBI forests
17:52:19  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe the map generator's heuristics to check for industries that don't need levelling is... underdeveloped
17:52:28  <andythenorth> CheckIfCanLevelIndustryPlatform
17:52:46  <andythenorth> if cb 2f is enabled, industry does get built on slopes
17:53:04  <andythenorth> but then I have to prevent steep slopes myself, which is....hard :P
17:54:51  <andythenorth> industry var 60 bit 4 looks promising
18:02:00  <Zuu> I've updated the Sign List patch to r20394 now. There is one remaining issue - the local 'F' hotkey to focus the edit box should probably be made configurable.
18:02:18  <Zuu> (FS#3472)
18:02:37  <guru3> won the city builder thing about 2 months before the gmae would have ended anyway -_-
18:03:08  <Eddi|zuHause> guru3: but the water thing worked?
18:03:15  <guru3> new game
18:03:22  <guru3> but it was working before yeah, but too little too late
18:03:24  <Zuu> Reminds me that I have not yet started on the #openttcoop SP challenge.
18:03:34  <guru3> anywho, off to dinner, bbl
18:03:58  <Zuu> Other than trying out some layouts in cheat-mode.
18:05:44  <andythenorth> bah
18:06:05  <andythenorth> how do I get bit 4 for ss out of var 60?
18:09:22  <Eddi|zuHause> with the right and mask?
18:10:13  <Eddi|zuHause> shift by 4 bits, and use an and-mask of 1
18:11:56  <andythenorth>   89 60 00 00 1F FF FF 00 // check tile contents
18:11:57  <andythenorth> ?
18:16:48  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd try 81 60 04 01 [value to check] 01 01 ?? ?? [true] ?? ?? [false]
18:17:25  <Eddi|zuHause> missing a 01
18:17:48  <Eddi|zuHause> or more
18:17:54  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm really not familiar with the syntax
18:18:27  <Eddi|zuHause> 81 60 04 01 [value to check] 01 ?? ?? 01 01 [true] ?? ?? [false]
18:19:59  <Eddi|zuHause> got it?
18:20:15  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe reverse the ranges
18:20:32  <Eddi|zuHause> 01 ?? ?? 00 00 [false] ?? ?? [true]
18:20:44  <andythenorth> I can figure the ranges :)  So your just checking a byte and shifting
18:20:47  <andythenorth> you're /s
18:20:50  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
18:20:54  <andythenorth> k
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18:21:09  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm checking the 4th bit only
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18:23:55  <mib_etjpik> 0hai
18:24:12  *** mib_etjpik is now known as Yura87
18:24:38  <Yura87> there's a major bug
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18:26:36  <Yura87> when not installed properly (just extracted), fonts, sometimes, aren't changed according to cfg
18:26:58  <Yura87> bug with portable installs of ottd
18:27:42  <Alberth> changing font size but not the font name?
18:27:46  <Eddi|zuHause> Yura87: i'm guessing you have two .cfg files somewhere, and you are editing the wrong one
18:28:20  <Rubidium> t r o l l
18:28:36  <Yura87> I don't change the font size. I only changed the font typefaces listed.
18:29:37  <Yura87> it occurs from time to time, and even if I know that there's no openttd folder in c:\users\Юра\documents
18:30:16  <Yura87> well, I use Arial Narrow to part-fix an overheight
18:31:14  <Yura87> settings window gets too high if in Russian and Open base sets are present.
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18:37:24  <Zuu> Hmm, so for each window which do not yet have (configurable) hotkeys, you need to create a global hotkeys handler in case a user decides to make the hotkey global.
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18:42:05  <Yura87> and there's a bananas bug
18:42:17  <Yura87> PlaneSet 1.5.3 isn't dloadable
18:42:54  <DorpsGek> chuck can download it
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18:44:06  <andythenorth> could anyone pull FIRS to verify a bug for me?
18:44:40  <frosch123> what does it do?
18:45:08  <andythenorth> Dairy Farm can be built on steep slopes.  Mixed Farm can't.  Code looks identical to me.
18:48:23  <frosch123> well, then the code is not identical obviously :)
18:48:46  <andythenorth> the problem is with my eyes :P
18:49:19  <frosch123> oh you have separae action14
18:54:00  <Zuu> Hmm, the sign list patch got 110 lines longer after making a single hotkey in the sign list window configurable. :-/
18:55:19  <Eddi|zuHause> if you write 100 lines in an hour, you're probably doing something wrong
18:55:55  <Eddi|zuHause> like, you haven't read enough into it to write it in 10 lines
18:56:33  <Zuu> I just compared the length of the patch files, not the number of actual code lines.
18:56:36  <andythenorth> frosch123: I do have separate action14 yes
18:56:46  <andythenorth> I should consolidate them?
18:57:16  <frosch123> andythenorth: tile E1 is only allowed on flat land
18:57:49  <andythenorth> ah
18:57:53  <andythenorth> fixable
19:01:39  <andythenorth> frosch123: thanks
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19:10:51  <Zuu> The length of added code is maybe "only" 50 lines or so. It is just that there is so many places you have to alter to make it work. I think the process could be streamlined, though I know the answer is to make the patch myself :-)
19:10:52  <__ln__>
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19:14:42  * andythenorth wonders what FIRS industries should build on slopes
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19:17:35  <andythenorth> Fruit Plantation looks good on hills :)
19:21:30  <Zuu> yep
19:21:41  <Zuu> plantations etc. should go well on hills
19:22:04  <Zuu> Forrests too.
19:22:26  <Alberth> s/rr/r/
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19:26:30  <Zuu> So now's the question, will there be a FilterSignList patch version 40? :-)
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19:35:24  <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: you plan on travelling that route or something?
19:36:13  *** Fast2 [] has quit []
19:37:11  <__ln__> no, it was just an example of a disaster other than UFO.
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20:10:00  <andythenorth> Arable Farms on slopes?  I reckon not.
20:11:39  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: yexo * r20396 /trunk/src/ (4 files): -Codechange: introduce a helper function to test whether an industry temporarily refues to accept some cargo
20:13:41  <Eddi|zuHause> i have no idea what an arable farm is
20:14:06  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: grain farm
20:14:17  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: farms where vegetarion food is planted
20:14:18  <andythenorth> will also grow sugar cane / beet in future FIRS
20:14:55  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, those should probably be on flat land...
20:21:50  *** Chris_Booth [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
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20:29:26  <andythenorth> opinions on a graphical glitch....
20:29:27  <andythenorth> ?
20:30:02  <Wolf01> leave a space before the link so it is clickable
20:30:28  <dihedral> NukeBuster, what are you looking for?
20:30:32  <Rubidium> Wolf01: for me it's clickable... just my browser compains it doesn't support glitch....http as protocol or something
20:30:49  <Wolf01> ahahah
20:31:44  <Eddi|zuHause> it's fine here...
20:32:08  <Wolf01> andythenorth, I think you should not release it with this glitch because you might break the compatibility in future when you'll fix it
20:32:20  <Zuu> what is the glitch/problem?
20:32:24  <Eddi|zuHause> and i didn't even get to update to the new url-parsing code yet
20:32:42  <Wolf01> Zuu, the mine elevator
20:33:14  <Zuu> Oh, yes
20:34:20  <andythenorth> I'd fix it by drawing my own sprites instead of reusing default sprites
20:35:29  <andythenorth> oil wells on slopes?  I reckon so
20:35:49  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
20:36:10  <Wolf01> if the mine must be built only on that kind of slope, ok, but what if the mine can be built on plain? how do you handle the different offset for the cables?
20:36:17  <Eddi|zuHause> i hated PBI's oil wells, they were so spread out, but they completely bulldozed the area...
20:36:35  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: alberth * r20397 /trunk/src/industry_gui.cpp: -Feature: Display industry smallmap colour in the industry chain window.
20:39:03  <andythenorth> Wolf01: I just draw the mine with things that don't break on slopes or flat land :)
20:39:06  <andythenorth> it's fine
20:39:07  <dihedral> NukeBuster, my servers have been offline for some time now
20:39:18  <NukeBuster> ok, to bad.
20:39:40  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I liked routing through the oilfield
20:39:45  <NukeBuster> had some good fun playing them.
20:39:52  <andythenorth> we're going to try something similar with FIRS, possibly with Pikka's graphics even
20:40:06  <dihedral> might be revived at some point but not within the next month ;-)
20:40:10  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: yes, but allow to have hills inbetween :)
20:40:15  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: is your objection that they flatten land?
20:40:23  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, exactly
20:40:31  <andythenorth> I'm allowing them on slopes right now
20:40:48  <andythenorth> just got to find the tile ID
20:41:26  <andythenorth> oh
20:42:01  <andythenorth> that reminds me.   frosch123, what happens if I set probability of industry in game to FF?
20:43:13  <frosch123> is there anything special that should happen?
20:43:43  <frosch123> it will appear more often :p
20:43:45  <andythenorth> does it make the industry very likely to get built?
20:43:58  <andythenorth> I'm trying to find a solution to building industries close to their intro date
20:44:11  <andythenorth> I'm playing a game with no steel mill for 30 years...
20:44:20  <frosch123> it does not increase the number of industry creations
20:45:11  <frosch123> if you have twenty industries with appearance 8, and one with ff
20:45:23  <frosch123> @calc 255 / (20*8)
20:45:23  <DorpsGek> frosch123: 1.59375
20:45:31  <frosch123> @calc 255 / (255+20*8)
20:45:31  <DorpsGek> frosch123: 0.614457831325
20:45:42  <frosch123> 61% chance that a new industry will be of that type
20:46:09  <andythenorth> but I'd need to set it for numerous industries, so that would cancel out
20:46:33  <andythenorth> don't think it's a solution
20:47:29  <andythenorth> frosch123: what happens if an action 2 chain ends on a missing ID?
20:47:46  <andythenorth> does it use the previous definition?
20:48:00  <Yexo> missing id = callback failed
20:48:05  <andythenorth> hmm
20:48:09  <andythenorth> cb appears to work
20:48:10  <Yexo> or in case of real action 2: no sprites
20:48:18  <andythenorth> I have sprites too
20:49:37  <andythenorth> these are redefinitions of existing industry tiles (adding cb 2f)
20:50:10  <andythenorth> the cb terminates correctly, so I guess the invalid ID is never reached?
20:50:32  <frosch123> andythenorth: if you use the id in an earlier industry, it will just go there
20:50:59  <andythenorth> I'm not sure why this is working in that case
20:51:16  <andythenorth> feel free to pull FIRS, then point and laugh :)
20:51:21  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20398 /trunk/src/ (6 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: move some variables of GRFFileProps into (the new) GRFFilePropsBase
20:51:26  <andythenorth> it's the oil wells, forest etc.
20:52:08  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: yexo * r20399 /trunk/ (7 files in 2 dirs): -Change: [NoAI] AIIndustry::IsCargoAccepted now returns 3 possible values so AIs can detect a temporaral refusal from an industry to accept some cargo type
20:52:58  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20400 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: let StationSpec use GRFFilePropsBase
20:56:04  <Zuu> temporaral refusal == pile full?
20:56:06  <frosch123> no idea, what you are doing currently :)
20:56:13  <frosch123> what is the point in an undefined id?
20:56:40  <frosch123> Zuu: yes, but also e.g powerplants accepting oil from 1960+
20:56:49  <Yexo> Zuu: yes (or whatever else a newgrf fancies to use as reason)
20:57:42  <Zuu> So the length of the temporary refusal could be anything from a tick to several years.
20:58:22  <frosch123> it means "your ai is in trouble"
20:58:38  <Zuu> :-)
20:58:45  <Yexo> Zuu: yes (even to "will never be accepted again")
21:00:04  <andythenorth> frosch123: in i_oilwell.pnfo ...I've enabled cb 2F for tiles 1D-20, and added an action 3 / varaction 2 to handle it
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21:00:27  <andythenorth> there's no action 1 / 2 for graphics.  I don't know why this works.
21:00:41  <andythenorth> Probably because it's a redefinition of existing tile?
21:02:01  <frosch123> /* No sprite group (or no valid one) found, meaning no graphics associated.
21:02:02  <frosch123> 			 * Use the substitute one instead */
21:03:50  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20401 /trunk/src/ (7 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: let HouseSpec use GRFFileProps
21:05:36  <andythenorth> frosch123: I should probably handle it better?  It's producing renum errors
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21:11:09  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20402 /trunk/src/ (7 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: rename the airport/station class id to something slightly more generic
21:12:28  <andythenorth> r20397 looks nice
21:12:31  * andythenorth compiles
21:12:59  <frosch123> night
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21:18:06  <andythenorth> night
21:32:51  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: yexo * r20403 /trunk/bin/ai/regression/regression.txt: -Fix (r20399): forgot to update regression
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21:37:43  <Wolf01> 'night
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21:39:44  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20404 /trunk/src/ (newgrf.cpp newgrf_station.cpp newgrf_station.h): -Codechange: remove the need for StationSpec::allocated
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22:06:10  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20405 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_class.h newgrf_class_func.h): -Add: generic class for "classes" for NewGRFs, e.g. the Station classes and Airport classes
22:07:18  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20406 /trunk/src/ (9 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: make StationClass use the new generic class
22:08:32  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20407 /trunk/src/ (4 files): -Codechange: make AirportClass use the new generic class
22:12:10  <Eddi|zuHause> i have a feeling there is a lot of refactoring going on
22:15:49  <Rubidium> you think?
22:17:58  <Eddi|zuHause> no. i said i feel...
22:27:14  <trebuchet> feelings are emanations of thought
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22:32:54  <^Spike^> bot attack... cool....
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22:33:45  *** mode/#openttd [+R] by Rubidium
22:34:13  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... it's not sysadmin-appreciation day anymore, why are they still appreciating
22:34:19  <^Spike^> :)
22:34:27  <^Spike^> i didn't get any appreciation...
22:34:36  <^Spike^> all i got to do the day before was recover a server...
22:34:44  <Rubidium> then you aren't a proper sysadmin!
22:34:57  <Rubidium> even I got appreciation that day
22:34:57  <^Spike^> only saving customer data... :)
22:35:04  <^Spike^> who cares about the customers! :)
22:35:21  <^Spike^> maybe because i'm a student.. and it isn't a full time work thing ;)
22:35:25  <^Spike^> that might explain why :D
22:35:30  *** dependent [] has quit []
22:35:41  <^Spike^> i was at home.... doing nothing :)
22:43:30  *** mode/#openttd [-R] by Rubidium
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22:44:11  * Rubidium ponders the feasibility of merging the airport and rail station windows
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22:45:16  <^Spike^> seems bopm isn't done yet.. :)
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22:47:36  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: you mean like airports having an "Airport class" dropdown (default containing "Small Airports" "Large Airports" "Heliports" etc.), then a dropdown for the specific airport, and a rotation selection?
22:47:38  <Rubidium> really... don't they have something better to do with their live than making the live of other people miserable?
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22:48:24  <glx> @mode +R
22:48:27  *** mode/#openttd [+R] by DorpsGek
22:48:29  <^Spike^> Rubidium to answer that question: No
22:48:56  <^Spike^> i've seen someone for 3 days on my server trying to connect using a tor node....
22:49:00  <^Spike^> only we block tor nodes...
22:49:02  <^Spike^> but he keeps trying
22:49:14  <^Spike^> maybe even longer already...
22:49:19  <^Spike^> i stopped reading after day 1 :)
22:49:42  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: well, that rotation/platform selection bit would be the different part, though the dropdown selection / coverage area could be merged I'd say
22:50:29  <Rubidium> then the windows would look more like eachother instead of quite different (which annoys me already)
22:50:36  <Eddi|zuHause> do windows/widget arrays support inheritance?
22:51:38  <Rubidium> to some amount they do
22:51:43  <Rubidium> s/some/a certain/
22:52:02  <Zuu> isn't it required to have two separate widget arrays then?
22:52:56  <Rubidium> possibly, but having at least shared handling of the rest would be a big bonus I'd say
22:53:21  <Zuu> Though, you could re-use part of the window code, and since only one of the arrays is used at the time, the widgets that are the same can use the same widget ids.
22:55:16  <Zuu> IIRC the save/load window use the same class but different widget arrays for each specific window.
22:55:30  <Rubidium> yep
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23:00:39  *** avdg1 is now known as avdg
23:02:14  * Zuu pounders a filter widget with a parameter of which GUIList it should filter. GUIList might need a slight extension so that it can tell more preciley how it can be filtered, so that the filter widget can adopt itself for that. :-)
23:03:04  <Zuu> Then it would be a pice of cake to add filters everywhere (ignoring re-painting etc.)
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23:09:24  <Zuu> night
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